Breaking: Iran Reaches Nuclear Deal With Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, the EU and the US

We shall see
World • Views: 35,492

Apparently this is a “first stage agreement,” whatever that means: French Foreign Minister: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached.

GENEVA (AP) — The French foreign minister says Iran and six world powers have reached a first-stage agreement on curbing Iran’s nuclear program in return for sanctions relief.

Laurent Fabius gave no details as he left a meeting of foreign ministers early Sunday in a fifth day of talks.

Also see
Iran, World Powers Reach Historic Nuclear Deal With Iran
UPDATE at 11/23/13 7:02:21 pm

The New York Times has some details on the deal: Deal Reached With Iran Halts Its Nuclear Program.

According to the accord, Iran would agree to stop enriching uranium beyond 5 percent. To make good on that pledge, Iran would dismantle the links between networks of centrifuges.

All of Iran’s stockpile of uranium that has been enriched to 20 percent, a short hop to weapons-grade fuel, would be diluted or converted into oxide so that it could not be readily used for military purposes.

No new centrifuges, neither old models nor newer more efficient ones, could be installed. Centrifuges that have been installed but which are not currently operating — Iran has more than 8,000 such centrifuges — could not be started up. No new enrichment facilities could be established.

The agreement, however, would not require Iran to stop enriching uranium to a level of 3.5 percent or dismantle any of its existing centrifuges.

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460 comments
1 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:22:33pm

Does this mean Iran isn’t six months to a year away from a bomb, as they have been for the past twenty years?

2 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:22:58pm

re: #1 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Does this mean Iran isn’t six months to a year away from a bomb, as they have been for the past twenty years?

Pfft, they’re just playing for time and Obama’s being an idiot, don’t you know?

///

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:23:16pm

Going by, oh, the last 30 years or so of Iran’s double-dealing on this issue, color me skeptical.

But some progress is better than no progress, in the best case scenario.

4 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:23:45pm
5 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:24:05pm
no details
6 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:24:17pm

re: #1 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Does this mean Iran isn’t six months to a year away from a bomb, as they have been for the past twenty years?

If filthy-rich Iran wants a bomb, they’ll get it from dirt-poor Pakistan or N. Korea. Shipping is free during the holidays.

7 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:24:54pm
8 Gus  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:25:13pm

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, the EU and the US. Oh, I have a question. Where’s Israel on this “deal?”

9 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:25:20pm

re: #6 Decatur Deb

Door Buster deals open at 6 am!!

10 Gus  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:25:48pm

re: #7 Lidane

[Embedded content]

twitter.com

11 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:26:24pm

re: #8 Gus

Why? What kind of sanctions has Israel had in place that it would be willing to remove?

12 b.d.  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:26:37pm

re: #8 Gus

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, the EU and the US. Oh, I have a question. Where’s Israel on this “deal?”

The people or the government?

13 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:26:41pm

re: #10 Gus

I don’t follow the guy. His tweet is being RT’d all over my timeline.

14 Gus  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:26:43pm

Pfft. I’m out of here.

15 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:26:52pm
16 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:27:50pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Going by, oh, the last 30 years or so of Iran’s double-dealing on this issue, color me skeptical.

But some progress is better than no progress, in the best case scenario.

QTF

17 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:28:58pm
The proposed deal offered to Iran would reportedly allow limited uranium enrichment, although under tight restrictions and heavy international monitoring. But Western officials have balked at recognizing a legal “right” to uranium enrichment, hoping instead to craft language in the final agreement that acknowledges the right of all countries to pursue nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. Zarif appeared to endorse that approach publicly last week.
washingtonpost.com
18 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:29:23pm

re: #6 Decatur Deb

If filthy-rich Iran wants a bomb, they’ll get it from dirt-poor Pakistan or N. Korea. Shipping is free during the holidays.

They can’t move the money for payment with the current restrictions. Iran can also use the opportunity of eased restrictions to make a down payment for a 3rd reactor from the Russians. We’ll have to wait and see what they do with this opportunity.

19 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:29:58pm

Best case scenario? Tehran Super Wal*Mart open during Ramadan!!

20 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:30:15pm
21 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:30:18pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Bitcoins!!

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:30:39pm

re: #8 Gus

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, the EU and the US. Oh, I have a question. Where’s Israel on this “deal?”

Last I heard they were pleading with the Russians to do something. I don’t know why they thought the Russians might be helpful.

23 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:31:03pm

I guess I’m having a hard time being cynical and pissy about potential forward progress.

But hey, what do I know?

24 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:31:26pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

They can’t move the money for payment with the current restrictions. Iran can also use the opportunity of eased restrictions to make a down payment for a 3rd reactor from the Russians. We’ll have to wait and see what they do with this opportunity.

Yeah, it’s impossible to move contraband across borders—that’s why all the heroin addicts went straight years ago.

25 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:32:10pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Going by, oh, the last 30 years or so of Iran’s double-dealing on this issue, color me skeptical.

But some progress is better than no progress, in the best case scenario.

Just remember to always factor in the previous 30 years before all that!

Let’s face it, the US messed around over there quite a lot prior to the 80s. We are far from clean and upstanding in their eyes too. Two way street thing. But, as I said in the previous thread…I think they are initiating all this. And that is huge in my eyes.

26 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:32:38pm

jQuery’s .data() function can do some pretty amazing stuff

i’m back to doing java/c++ pgming again, but i was very impressed with my experiences with javascript and especially jquery - together they are so different than the usual languages and very powerful - the ‘declarative’ rather than the usual ‘imperative’ mode of programming language

27 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:32:48pm

re: #23 dr. klys

I guess I’m having a hard time being cynical and pissy about potential forward progress.

But hey, what do I know?

There are a lot of good reasons to be cautious about any deals with Iran, but it’s worth a shot at least.

28 Kragar  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:32:56pm

Allow me to sum up the GOP talking points against this deal:

BENGHAZI!
Obamacare has a bad website.
The War on Christmas.

29 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:33:01pm

Wow, not sure how that strange picture got attached to the tweet. Excuse me while I check some code.

30 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:33:33pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Wow, not sure how that strange picture got attached to the tweet. Excuse me while I check some code.

i thought your new haircut didn’t flatter you

31 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:33:52pm

re: #27 Lidane

There are a lot of good reasons to be cautious about any deals with Iran, but it’s worth a shot at least.

Yeah, I just feel there’s a difference between “being cautious” and some of what’s being said, which smacks of a desire to preserve the status quo at best.

32 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:34:23pm

re: #23 dr. klys

I guess I’m having a hard time being cynical and pissy about potential forward progress.

But hey, what do I know?

Hey, for something like this, a little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.

I’m not saying that this agreement’s gonna pan out, but let’s at least give all of the parties involved (and those who aren’t directly, such as Israel) a chance to work on it.

33 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:34:31pm

Remember how everyone says “Sanctions don’t work”? If this doesn’t turn out to be BS, that’s what sanctions working looks like.

34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:34:51pm

I don’t think public announcements and Iran’s program have a strong relationship.

But what our intelligence services have been saying:

nytimes.com

Recent assessments by American spy agencies are broadly consistent with a 2007 intelligence finding that concluded that Iran had abandoned its nuclear weapons program years earlier, according to current and former American officials. The officials said that assessment was largely reaffirmed in a 2010 National Intelligence Estimate, and that it remains the consensus view of America’s 16 intelligence agencies.

At the center of the debate is the murky question of the ultimate ambitions of the leaders in Tehran. There is no dispute among American, Israeli and European intelligence officials that Iran has been enriching nuclear fuel and developing some necessary infrastructure to become a nuclear power. But the Central Intelligence Agency and other intelligence agencies believe that Iran has yet to decide whether to resume a parallel program to design a nuclear warhead — a program they believe was essentially halted in 2003 and which would be necessary for Iran to build a nuclear bomb.

Eventually, every country with any sort of budget will be able to buy nuclear weapons. We can’t have a plan of “We’ll make sure the bad guys never get nukes”. It’s not a long-term solution. There is no easy path to a liberalized and free Iran, but that’s the real long-term solution.

35 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:35:05pm

re: #30 dog philosopher

i thought your new haircut didn’t flatter you

Is that a Lebanese flag on the bookshelf?

36 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:36:04pm

Ambassador Tom Fletcher:
Youtube Video

gov.uk

37 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:36:29pm

Cue the Obama = Chamberlain comparisons:

38 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:37:20pm

re: #33 Decatur Deb

Remember how everyone says “Sanctions don’t work”? If this doesn’t turn out to be BS, that’s what sanctions working looks like.

Exactly. But maybe some don’t like sanctions since there will be no booms and bangs, and big metal toys and dead boys. Like real men.

(I’m talking to you John McCain and all those chickenhawk warriors of the Bush mess)

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:37:43pm

Default conservative response; Bomb them!

40 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:38:07pm

Looks like it could have been the poster image for a video that was dynamically generated at the AP site. Deep.

41 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:38:16pm

It’s a worth a shot. It’s not as though the deal requires us to dismantle our own nukes, scrap our carriers, and join the mullahs in a soulful rendition of Kumbaya ‘round the campfire.

42 Zamb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:38:46pm

This is just an attempt by the Obama administration to distract from the failure of Obamacare.

43 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:38:59pm

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel

It’s a worth a shot. It’s not as though the deal requires us to dismantle our own nukes, scrap our carriers, and join the mullahs in a soulful rendition of Kumbaya ‘round the campfire.

Although the way some people are reacting, you might think…

44 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:39:34pm

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel

It’s a worth a shot. It’s not as though the deal requires us to dismantle our own nukes, scrap our carriers, and join the mullahs in a soulful rendition of Kumbaya ‘round the campfire.

The price of pistachios could tumble. Will no one think of the growers?

45 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:39:36pm

re: #42 Zamb

This is just an attempt by the Obama administration to distract from the failure of Obamacare.

BENGHAZHICARE32WARSHIPARUGULA

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:39:58pm

re: #38 ObserverArt

Exactly. But maybe some don’t like sanctions since there will be no booms and bangs, and big metal toys and dead boys. Like real men.

(I’m talking to you John McCain and all those chickenhawk warriors of the Bush mess)

Maybe Senator McCain is just thinking about how sanctions didn’t get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it ultimately took main force to remove him from power.

BTW, I assume you’re not calling John McCain a chickenhawk, since that would be absurd.

47 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:40:29pm

Is the deal contingent on full IAEA access, no notice inspections, cameras at the facilities etc? If not this is pure theater.

48 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:40:47pm

Finally I can buy the Persian rug that ties my room together.

49 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:40:48pm

re: #47 Political Atheist

Is the deal contingent on full IAEA access, no notice inspections, cameras at the facilities etc? If not this is pure theater.

BOMB THEM!

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:41:16pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Maybe Senator McCain is just thinking about how sanctions didn’t get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it ultimately took main force to remove him from power.

And look how well that worked.

51 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:41:31pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

BENGHAZHICARE32WARSHIPARUGULA

How cool would it be for President Obama to commission the USS Arugula?

It could be a resupply ship…

52 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:41:57pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Maybe Senator McCain is just thinking about how sanctions didn’t get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it ultimately took main force to remove him from power.

But he had no nukes.

Remember?

53 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:42:21pm

Conspiraloons will suggest a secret protocol to sell out Israel or perhaps Saudi Arabia.
My response to the first: Impossible for any number of reasons.
To the second: So?

54 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:42:37pm

re: #47 Political Atheist

Is the deal contingent on full IAEA access, no notice inspections, cameras at the facilities etc? If not this is pure theater.

That’s what we’ll see in a bit. That and the reaction of young Iranians to the news.

55 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:43:09pm
56 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:43:19pm

Lesson to neocon fools: Appeasement DID work. It bought time for west to rearm. Rearming didn’t help the French much, but England could never have resisted Germany in 1938 and 39, like it did in 1940.

57 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:44:11pm

re: #49 Varek Raith

BOMB THEM!

RWC didn’t say that, and neither did I. Skepticism of a deal with Iran regarding uranium enrichment is not ‘warmongering’. It is simply doubt that a heretofore untrustworthy government will live up to its promises.

58 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:44:15pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, cause he totally had wmds and nukes.
Wait…

59 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:44:35pm

Not a fan of the coffee table.

60 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:44:58pm

re: #52 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But he had no nukes.

Remember?

Nobody was saying he had nukes.

61 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:45:00pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Maybe Senator McCain is just thinking about how sanctions didn’t get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it ultimately took main force to remove him from power.

BTW, I assume you’re not calling John McCain a chickenhawk, since that would be absurd.

In the past few weeks I’ve been reading up on the arguments in favor of the “shitty deal” tactic. Sometimes lifting sanctions can be really effective like what happened with Q’Daffy. When the time came for him to crush the Lybian uprising he was so reliant on Western business deals that he couldn’t use the required brutality without crashing his economy. Being open to Western investment tied his hands.

62 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:45:28pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Our goal in the first Iraq war was to remove troops from Kuwait. The goal of sanctions was to keep Hussein from killing Kurds. It was never a goal by those in charge to remove Hussein from power.

Please don’t rewrite history.

63 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:45:29pm

re: #59 Amory Blaine

Not a fan of the coffee table.

IKEA. Took Biden a week to get it together.

64 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:46:47pm

He’s wearing white pants after Labor Day. Bad judgement..

65 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:46:57pm

re: #58 Varek Raith

Yeah, cause he totally had wmds and nukes.
Wait…

Israel blowed up his reactor.

66 jvic  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:46:59pm

re: #8 Gus

Britain, France, Germany, China, Russia, the EU and the US. Oh, I have a question. Where’s Israel on this “deal?”

Not just Israel, the Saudis and others.

67 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:47:17pm

re: #55 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Those white pants are like WTF. Are they somebody else’s pants?

68 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:47:26pm

re: #63 Decatur Deb

I wish my dinger button worked.

69 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:47:36pm

Mansour Farhang:

…the Iranian regime would be open to reaching an implicit understanding with the United States that it will not develop nuclear weapons. Such an understanding, he said, would enable Iran to calm the fears of the United States and Israel without abandoning its anti-Western rhetoric. He added, however, that Iran was unlikely to agree to intrusive inspections.

Farhang accordingly advised the United States to make a deal with Iran without calling it a deal. The arrangement, he explained, must allow the leaders of the Islamic Republic to return to Teheran and say, “We won.”
international.ucla.edu

Mansour Farhang is professor of international relations at Bennington College, Vermont. He resigned from his post as revolutionary Iran’s first ambassador to the United Nations when Khomeini’s regime refused to accept the UN’s recommendation to release its US hostages.
opendemocracy.net

70 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:47:49pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Israel blowed up his reactor.

Hey, Cheney’s the one who said he had a nuclear program.
And wmds.

71 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:47:50pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Maybe Senator McCain is just thinking about how sanctions didn’t get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it ultimately took main force to remove him from power.

BTW, I assume you’re not calling John McCain a chickenhawk, since that would be absurd.

And you’d be right. But I’ve posted before, in my opinion McCain has gone back on much of what he claimed he learned about the US being the policeman in the world and the cost of war on humans, etc. I no longer have the respect I did for McCain prior to about 1999 or so. I think he has been a massive hypocrite and turned into what he himself hated. Again, my opinion. So no chickenhawk for McCain. But sadly in my view he has turned to a war monger.

And, do you really want to go down that road about removing Hussein??? What has that really gotten anyone but again blown up metal toys and dead boys? And, are you proud that the US actually invaded a sovereign country to take out its leader?

72 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:49:15pm

You’ll forgive my skepticism in taking advice from warmongers.

73 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:49:15pm

re: #56 SteveMcGazi

Baloney! France would have been in a relatively stronger position in 1938 than it was in 1940. Germany would have had 1 less year of production of the crucial Mark III and Mark IV panzers, and would have had far fewer of the Czechoslovakian tanks they used to bulk out their panzer divisions.

Moreover, the Germans would have been attacking using a much less effective plan than the “Sickle Cut” plan Gen. von Manstein created in the winter of 1939-1940.

74 RealityBasedSteve  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:49:23pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Wow, not sure how that strange picture got attached to the tweet. Excuse me while I check some code.

Wow Charles, being demon possessed is really taking it’s toll on you.

RBS

75 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:49:30pm

re: #67 Learned Pie Of Zion

Those white pants are like WTF. Are they somebody else’s pants?

Walking around the WH in his tighty whities, where the fuck are my fucking pants!!

76 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:49:38pm

Any word about what’s going to happen with Iran’s 20% uranium?

77 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:50:36pm

re: #52 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, that’s a bad precedent, considering the Osirak raid.

78 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:50:47pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Any word about what’s going to happen with Iran’s 20% uranium?

They sure as hell can’t make a bomb with it.

79 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:52:33pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Any word about what’s going to happen with Iran’s 20% uranium?

No, that hasn’t been announced yet. But that level of enriched uranium can safely be used as fuel for a nuclear power plant. It’s actually more efficient than lower levels of enrichment in terms of power generation (though the high cost makes it not economically viable in most cases).

80 blueraven  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:52:39pm

re: #55 Lidane

Photo by @petesouza: Obama on conference call with U.S. negotiators in Geneva today t.co pic.twitter.com/htJ659T0WI
— BuzzFeed News (@BuzzFeedNews) November 24, 2013

WTF? BuzzFeed deleted the tweet? Is this over that stupid argument over Press using Souza photos?

81 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:52:42pm

re: #78 Varek Raith

They sure as hell can’t make a bomb with it.

Previous proposals required them to convert it to 3%. I suspect they won’t do that as part of a 6 month deal.

82 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:52:54pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

RWC didn’t say that, and neither did I. Skepticism of a deal with Iran regarding uranium enrichment is >not ‘warmongering’. It is simply doubt that a heretofore untrustworthy government will live up to its promises.

It’s been the default position of many in your party.

83 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:54:05pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

You’ll forgive my skepticism in taking advice from warmongers.

Here’s who I’m referring to.
Anyone who doesn’t want us to negotiate at all.
Also, anyone who’s a necon.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:54:17pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

It’s been the default position of many in your party.

But RWC’s isn’t those people. He’s his own man, as am I. Don’t treat us like we’re generic wingnuts.

85 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:54:54pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

Here’s who I’m referring to.
Anyone who doesn’t want us to negotiate at all.
Also, anyone who’s a necon.

What is the definition of a “neocon” in your mind?

86 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:55:04pm

I once heard a good definition of the word “compromise”.
“It’s when both sides are equally unhappy.”
I think ANY kind of agreement is progress.
Baby steps are good.

87 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:55:21pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

But RWC’s isn’t those people. He’s his own man, as am I. Don’t treat us like we’re generic wingnuts.

Kind of hard to when you vote for them.
In RWC case, I’ll concede that.

88 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:55:28pm

I’m curious what the alternative is that folks who are skeptical of the deal would propose instead, since apparently one of the complaints is that this government is completely untrustworthy and therefore any deal they make would be worthless.

89 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:55:54pm
90 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:56:26pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

What is the definition of a “neocon” in your mind?

Spreading liberty and democracy with war.

91 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:56:53pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

RWC didn’t say that, and neither did I. Skepticism of a deal with Iran regarding uranium enrichment is >not ‘warmongering’. It is simply doubt that a heretofore untrustworthy government will live up to its promises.

St. Ronnie of the Blessed Raygun had one thing right: Trust, but verify.

However, to quote the great James T. Kirk, peace is worth a few personal risks.

92 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:56:58pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Baloney! France would have been in a relatively stronger position in 1938 than it was in 1940. Germany would have had 1 less year of production of the crucial Mark III and Mark IV panzers, and would have had far fewer of the Czechoslovakian tanks they used to bulk out their panzer divisions.

Moreover, the Germans would have been attacking using a much less effective plan than the “Sickle Cut” plan Gen. von Manstein created in the winter of 1939-1940.

First production Spitfires and Hurricanes flew in mid-1938. Volume production not reached until 1940. No fighters, no Battle of Britain, no Britain.

93 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:57:06pm
94 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:57:22pm

re: #87 Varek Raith

Kind of hard to when you vote for them.
In RWC case, I’ll concede that.

I realize this is a low blow, but I get annoyed with people who support their team no matter what.
Sorry DF.

95 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:58:37pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Nobody was saying he had nukes.

Kind of a thin, bullshit distinction. They were alluding to and using that idea as a scare tactic from day one.

“We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.”
-Condi Rice

Aluminum tubes, using Judith Miller to plant a ton of false allegations regarding a nuclear program then citing those planted reports to justify invasion.

en.wikipedia.org

96 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:58:42pm

re: #88 dr. klys

I’m curious what the alternative is that folks who are skeptical of the deal would propose instead, since apparently one of the complaints is that this government is completely untrustworthy and therefore any deal they make would be worthless.

No problem. Those same people say our government is untrustworthy.

97 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:58:51pm

re: #55 Lidane

[Embedded content]

HE’S WEARING TENNIS SHOES

98 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:58:56pm

re: #90 Varek Raith

Spreading liberty and democracy with war.

Then by that definition you’d have to call Bill Clinton a neocon for his interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo. You’d also have to apply it to Woodrow Wilson.

99 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 6:59:13pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

What is the definition of a “neocon” in your mind?

The George W. Bush administration. Shitty ideas, even shittier foreign policy. Cheering for the invasion of a country completely unrelated to 9/11 over unresolved Daddy issues. Total warmongering, where the first answer to everything is bombing that country into a parking lot.

100 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:00:17pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

First production Spitfires and Hurricanes flew in mid-1938. Volume production not reached until 1940. No fighters, no Battle of Britain, no Britain.

My point was that had the war started earlier France might not have fallen in the first place.

101 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:01:00pm

re: #99 Lidane

The word “neocon” far predates the Bush administration. Try again.

102 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:01:35pm

What ‘abandonment’ is Ari Fleischer tweeting about?

103 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:02:10pm

Germany would have had the Czech tanks anyway. Hitler knew that France wasn’t coming out from behind the Maginot Line. Why do you think the Rhineland was virtually ungarrisoned when he invaded Poland? In the research I did for this part of history, Both England and France faced labor strikes if they went to war against Germany. It’s easy for us to forget 90 years and 4000 miles away from just how horrific WWI was and how much worse everybody expected the next one to be. France was turning over governments like the changing of the seasons. England had hardly any air force, and its nave was more occupied with the Japanese than you would realize. The Far East colonies were very important to England. For England to intervene in Europe would have meant the abandonment of those interests. It ultimately lost them anyway, but they could not have defended both Czechoslovakia and the Far East. One more point is that most people thought of Czechoslovakia as an artificial nation, created by the Treaty of Versailles. So it ‘snot that simple.

104 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:02:20pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Then by that definition you’d have to call Bill Clinton a neocon for his interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo. You’d also have to apply it to Woodrow Wilson.

S….t….r….e….t….c….h!

105 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:02:45pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

The word “neocon” far predates the Bush administration. Try again.

The word predates it. The implementation of neocon ideas on a national level? Not so much.

106 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:03:34pm

re: #102 jaunte

What ‘abandonment’ is Ari Fleischer tweeting about?

Israel isn’t a party of the deal. Ergo, abandonment. Or something.

No idea.

107 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:04:03pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

The word “neocon” far predates the Bush administration. Try again.

It used to be neo-liberal when Clinton was in office. Old school guys like Chomsky still use the term but everyone else just change the word, not the meaning.

108 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:04:43pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

First production Spitfires and Hurricanes flew in mid-1938. Volume production not reached until 1940. No fighters, no Battle of Britain, no Britain.

The Narrow Margin, Wood and Dempster’s classic history of the Battle of Britain, goes into quite a bit of detail about the period between the wars and the development of radar and air defense in general. The chapter on the Munich Crisis is entitled “A Year of Grace.” At the time of the Munich Crisis, Fighter Command had 70 Hurricanes and 28 Spitfires in service. The rest of its 600 odd interceptors were biplanes that stood little or no chance of destroying the fast German bombers that were already in service in some numbers. Ten times that number of Spits and Hurricanes were barely adequate when the showdown did come 2 years later.

109 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:04:50pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

No problem. Those same people say our government is untrustworthy.

So …pretty much this is all worthless and then …what? It’s the what I’m unclear on.

110 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:05:13pm

re: #103 SteveMcGazi

Favorite thing I learned this year: Czechoslovakia was founded in a Moose fraternal organization hall in Pittsburgh.

111 b.d.  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:05:22pm

re: #97 Stanley Sea

HE’S WEARING TENNIS SHOES

REAGAN OR ANY OTHER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT EVER WORE TENNIS SHOES IN THE OVAL OFFICE!!1!!

112 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:06:03pm

re: #109 dr. klys

So …pretty much this is all worthless and then …what?

Eeyore wins.

113 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:06:15pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Bullshit. Neocons and neoliberals are two different things.

If you didn’t spend all your time trying to MBF every fucking thing, you’d know that.

114 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:06:33pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

The word “neocon” far predates the Bush administration. Try again.

And as we all discussed a day or so ago…the word liberal meant something different before St. Ronaldus Reaganus turned it into something bad.

Political words are footballs…

Hey!!!

115 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:06:42pm

re: #109 dr. klys

So …pretty much this is all worthless and then …what? It’s the what I’m unclear on.

If it’s BS we put the sanctions back and tighten them up—status quo ante.

116 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:07:06pm

Forgive my jerkiness.

117 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:07:18pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Then by that definition you’d have to call Bill Clinton a neocon for his interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo. You’d also have to apply it to Woodrow Wilson.

Bosnia and Kosovo were about actual ethnic cleansing in progress. Admittedly the fact that it was occurring in Europe’s suburbs played a large role in why NATO got involved.

118 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:07:36pm

re: #113 Lidane

Bullshit. Neocons and neoliberals are two different things.

If you didn’t spend all your time trying to MBF every fucking thing, you’d know that.

I saw that and thought, we read his shit still?

119 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:07:37pm

re: #103 SteveMcGazi

You are assuming Hitler could have taken those Czech factories intact, which was no sure thing. Moreover, cutting through the defenses erected on the Czech-German border would have inflicted a good deal of damage on the Wehrmacht. It would have been a good long while before they would have been in a position to mount a major offensive against France and when they did they’d still have been doing it with far fewer tanks than they otherwise had.

120 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:07:59pm

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel

It’s a worth a shot. It’s not as though the deal requires us to dismantle our own nukes, scrap our carriers, and join the mullahs in a soulful rendition of Kumbaya ‘round the campfire.

Both the Iranians and the US have spent the last 34 years accusing each other of being the Great Satan or the Scourge of the Middle East, respectively. (And on our part, that was only when Saddam wasn’t.)

The reality has always been something else. If this gives everybody involved an opportunity to take the wattage down, it’s a good thing.

And yes, sanctions worked. And yes, we must institute strong verification procedures. And yes, Bibi’s coalition in Israel will be badly damaged by this if the Iranians keep their end of the bargain. And yes, the Sunni world is going to have a nice collective shudder if Iran re-enters the world stage.

And yes, all of these things may, in the long run, make the world a better and safer place. Let’s get some popcorn and see what happens.

121 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:08:55pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Forgive my jerkiness.

You are allowed. You’ve been non bomby for awhile.

122 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:10:21pm

re: #109 dr. klys

So …pretty much this is all worthless and then …what? It’s the what I’m unclear on.

Maybe some just want proof of more “failed progressive thinking” so they can score political points while they clean their guns and getting ready to really show that Obama guy how its done.

123 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:10:33pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Forgive my jerkiness.

You are forgiven. Tempers can flare.

124 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:10:34pm

re: #121 Stanley Sea

You are allowed. You’ve been non bomby for awhile.

Now I feel bad.
Oy.

125 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:11:15pm

I would welcome an Iran that backs away from nuclear weapons development for some reduction of economic sanctions. More stability in that part of the world = good!

And, I’ve always had a dream of freeheel skiing in places like Iran and Afghanistan. Both countries have mighty mountain ranges that get a lot of snow.

If everybody skied, there would be no war.

Yeah I know, the italicized saying is pretty hokey. I like it, though.

126 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:11:24pm

In other news, bears are Catholic, etc, —

127 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:11:38pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

If it’s BS we put the sanctions back and tighten them up—status quo ante.

Thank you! At least someone is driving with clean windows.

128 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:11:46pm

re: #102 jaunte

What ‘abandonment’ is Ari Fleischer tweeting about?

Netanyahu.

129 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:11:51pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

Now I feel bad.
Oy.

puleeze!

130 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:12:06pm

re: #126 Lidane

But is his mustache ok?!?!?!

131 b.d.  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:12:07pm

re: #126 Lidane

In other news, bears are Catholic, etc, —

[Embedded content]

going?

132 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:12:38pm

re: #129 Stanley Sea

puleeze!

Get off my lawn!

133 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:12:40pm

It is not good logic to presume that because GWB got it wrong on Iraq, that the current worries about Iran and nuclear programs are not legitimate. Or exaggerated.

The IAEA exists for very good reason.

134 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:12:54pm

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

My point was that had the war started earlier France might not have fallen in the first place.

France would have fallen, possibly even faster because there would have been less British ability to fortify their defenses and there would not have been the phony war for what training up there was. The French Air Force would not have had any of the the three fighters that actually did any damage to the Luftwaffe - the D.520, MS.406 & Curtis Hawk 75’s. They would have had the same poor tactical use of their infantry and armor and most of all they’d still have a general staff that was psychologically devastated by the trenches of 14-18.

The British would have have fewer of the foul excuses for tanks that they did have and the RAF would have been made up of Hawker Harts & Gloster Gladiators which would have fattened the Luftwaffe like the Polikarpovs of 1941 in our history. Churchill would not have been called up and Britain would have signed a peace with in 3 months of the French defeat.

135 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:13:21pm

Where we don’t appear to be in a hot war.

136 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:13:30pm
137 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:13:59pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

Now I feel bad.
Oy.

You really shouldn’t, Dark does put party before country and people here cut him an absolutely enormous amount of slack. That was established pretty concretely when he defended the GOP shutdown and using the threat of default as negotiating leverage.

138 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:14:14pm

re: #133 Political Atheist

It is not good logic to presume that because GWB got it wrong on Iraq, that the current worries about Iran and nuclear programs are not legitimate. Or exaggerated.

The IAEA exists for very good reason.

And so what about the assessment of our own intelligence services, like Obdi linked above?

re: #34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I don’t think public announcements and Iran’s program have a strong relationship.

But what our intelligence services have been saying:

nytimes.com

Eventually, every country with any sort of budget will be able to buy nuclear weapons. We can’t have a plan of “We’ll make sure the bad guys never get nukes”. It’s not a long-term solution. There is no easy path to a liberalized and free Iran, but that’s the real long-term solution.

139 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:14:28pm

re: #128 goddamnedfrank

Netanyahu.

Bibi had a date with Ari and stood him up?

140 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:14:42pm

re: #133 Political Atheist

It is not good logic to presume that because GWB got it wrong on Iraq, that the current worries about Iran and nuclear programs are not legitimate. Or exaggerated.

The IAEA exists for very good reason.

It is however excellent partisan politics.

141 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:11pm

re: #133 Political Atheist

It is not good logic to presume that because GWB got it wrong on Iraq, that the current worries about Iran and nuclear programs are not legitimate. Or exaggerated.

The IAEA exists for very good reason.

Yep. And I hope we just kicked the door open for them.

142 GlutenFreeJesus  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:13pm

re: #37 Lidane

Cue the Obama = Chamberlain comparisons:

[Embedded content]

And invading a sovereign nation in an act of pre-emption based on straight up lies (WMD/terrorist ties) worked so well!

143 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:25pm

few details here
npr.org

144 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:52pm

re: #134 William Barnett-Lewis

I’d remind you that Germany would still have been stuck with older model ME-109s and far fewer of them. Likewise, Germany would have had very few of their newer model tanks.

145 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:59pm

re: #133 Political Atheist

I haven’t seen anyone suggesting that we shouldn’t be cautious about a deal with Iran. There are plenty of good reasons to be skeptical.

The sneering at Ari Fleischer and the rest of the neocon fuckwits is because they’re disappointed we’re not bombing Tehran into a parking lot.

146 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:15:59pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

Not that I know my WW2 history that well, but did Germany really need the Czech factories? It had a really good army without them. And let’s say it did. Would the French and British starting a war at that point have helped, with what they had at that point getting destroyed in a fight? The Germans were set up as a military machine; the rest of the world, not so much.

147 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:16:50pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

I’d remind you that Germany would still have been stuck with older model ME-109s and far fewer of them. Likewise, Germany would have had very few of their newer model tanks.

Thanks to Spain they knew how to use what they had. The French and British did not.

148 steve_davis  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:17:08pm

re: #6 Decatur Deb

If filthy-rich Iran wants a bomb, they’ll get it from dirt-poor Pakistan or N. Korea. Shipping is free during the holidays.

And if they have Prime, they can get it there by Wednesday, or Tuesday for an extra 3.99.

149 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:17:32pm

re: 119 Dark Falcon

You’re also assuming the Czechs would have actually fought against Hitler, which is also a big assumption. There was plenty of civil unrest among the nationalities. But let’s see how things would have turned out if Hitler called England’s bluff in 1938. The only intervention England and France had available was blockade and aerial bombardment. The bombardment would have failed, and as history shows, Germany fought just fine for six years while being blockaded. However, France would have imploded. You can bet that whatever government was in power at the time would be replaced if they dared to try to save the Czechs. As I said above, there was no support in England for Czechoslovakia either. Not only did England and France have a strategic problem, they had a huge political problem that doesn’t fit on the bumper sticker guys like you try to use when you discuss history

150 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:17:49pm

re: #145 Lidane

I haven’t seen anyone suggesting that we shouldn’t be cautious about a deal with Iran. There are plenty of good reasons to be skeptical.

The sneering at Ari Fleischer and the rest of the neocon fuckwits is because they’re disappointed we’re not bombing Tehran into a parking lot.

Bingo!

151 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:18:13pm

re: #142 GlutenFreeJesus

And invading a sovereign nation in an act of pre-emotion based on straight up lies (WMD/terrorist ties) worked so well!

I love how spell check didn’t catch “pre-emotion”. Especially that with Neocons, it’s actually kind of appropriate!

152 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:18:18pm

WTFITS

153 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:18:38pm

re: #140 Political Atheist

It is however excellent partisan politics.

I really don’t know how to respond to this, because it sort of feels like you’re saying that anyone who is willing to give this deal a shot is doing so because of partisan politics and wanting to score a point against the other side.

Instead of, you know, hoping for an eventual peaceful resolution to this whole mess.

154 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:18:46pm

re: #139 Decatur Deb

Bibi had a date with Ari and stood him up?

Bibi didn’t want to weaken sanctions at all, no matter what kind of deal could be made. His only solution is for Iran to magically teleport itself to another planet, never to return.

155 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:19:07pm

re: #142 GlutenFreeJesus

And invading a sovereign nation in an act of pre-emotion based on straight up lies (WMD/terrorist ties) worked so well!

It’s the dudebro way.re: #151 austin_blue

An emocon.

156 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:19:27pm

re: #138 dr. klys

And so what about the assessment of our own intelligence services, like Obdi linked above?

Completely unrelated phenomenon would include Saddam and Irans leadership. The IAEA did find evidence of highly enriched uranium. Iran openly is actually enriching it. They admit to 20%. 27% was found. Takes deliberate work to get from 5 to 10 top 20 to 27%. The truth is obscure from where we sit. Since we are talking a peaceful deal, the bar of proof can be far lower than going to war.

157 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:20:12pm

According to wingnuts, there have been a whole bunch of “genocides” committed by Obama, with 0 victims.
BENGHAZI!!!!!111!!! 4 WHOLE PEOPLE KILLED!!!!!11!!!! WORSE THEN 9/11 AND TEH HOLOCAUST!!!!11!!!111!11111TY

158 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:20:23pm

re: #135 jaunte

If my memory serves me correct, the UN wasn’t going to do jack shit about Syria until Obama threatened to bomb the country. I don’t get his comparison.

159 b.d.  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:20:36pm

Wolf is breathless on Saturdays too.

160 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:20:39pm

re: #153 dr. klys

I really don’t know how to respond to this, because it sort of feels like you’re saying that anyone who is willing to give this deal a shot is doing so because of partisan politics and wanting to score a point against the other side.

Instead of, you know, hoping for an eventual peaceful resolution to this whole mess.

This.

161 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:20:47pm

The centrifuges are painted carpet rolls.

162 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:21:21pm

re: #146 Belafon

Not that I know my WW2 history that well, but did Germany really need the Czech factories? It had a really good army without them. And let’s say it did. Would the French and British starting a war at that point have helped, with what they had at that point getting destroyed in a fight? The Germans were set up as a military machine; the rest of the world, not so much.

Desperately. The Czech tanks were much better than 2/3 of the Panzers available at the time and the Bruno munitions plants produced far more rifles for the Wehrmacht than did Mauser at Oberndorf.

However, the propaganda that the Germans had put out had both the French and British military grading them much higher than they were on an equipment level, much as the west would constantly do with the Soviet military during the Cold War. And unlike the Soviets, the Wehrmacht had good training and esprit’d corps.

As I noted above, the outcome of Plan Yellow even in it’s earlier form would have remained the same.

163 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:21:41pm
164 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:21:59pm

re: #153 dr. klys

I really don’t know how to respond to this, because it sort of feels like you’re saying that anyone who is willing to give this deal a shot is doing so because of partisan politics and wanting to score a point against the other side.

Instead of, you know, hoping for an eventual peaceful resolution to this whole mess.

Yeah, this is what set me off.

165 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:22:00pm

re: #153 dr. klys

I really don’t know how to respond to this, because it sort of feels like you’re saying that anyone who is willing to give this deal a shot is doing so because of partisan politics and wanting to score a point against the other side.

Instead of, you know, hoping for an eventual peaceful resolution to this whole mess.

I think this falls somewhere along the same line as “but they are my congressperson!”

That would be your partisan politics. See where I’m going here?

: )

166 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:22:16pm

re: #136 Lidane

re: #152 Learned Pie Of Zion

I swear these people are absolutely delusional. They’re all religious fanatics hellbent on bringing on a worldwide conflagration. Pitiful.

167 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:22:35pm

I can bedazzle an entire weapons factory with some pvc, Elmer’s glue and yarn.

168 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:22:53pm

re: #149 SteveMcGazi

And I find your casually flung insult to be far off the mark. Go soak your head.

169 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:23:00pm

re: #153 dr. klys

I really don’t know how to respond to this, because it sort of feels like you’re saying that anyone who is willing to give this deal a shot is doing so because of partisan politics and wanting to score a point against the other side.

Instead of, you know, hoping for an eventual peaceful resolution to this whole mess.

Sorry, not what I mean. Let me re state.
The logic of the deal is sound, proportionate to verification and enforcement.

The logic of associating Iran now and the Iraq debacle is partisan and therefore highly suspect.

170 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:23:10pm

re: #167 Amory Blaine

I can bedazzle an entire weapons factory with some pvc, Elmer’s glue and yarn.

Lol.

171 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:25:04pm
172 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:25:14pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Nobody was saying he had nukes.

On this, D_F is right.

However, every speech the Bush administration gave on the subject of Iraq in the year leading up to the invasion they made sure that ‘Saddam Hussein’ and ‘weapons of mass destruction’ were used often. Many times the phrases were in the same paragraph.

They counted on the American people being too busy pissing themselves with fear to deconstruct those speeches.

They were right too.

173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:25:16pm

re: #169 Political Atheist

The logic of associating Iran now and the Iraq debacle is partisan and therefore highly suspect.

What are you talking about? Associating them how?

174 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:26:06pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

You are assuming Hitler could have taken those Czech factories intact, which was no sure thing. Moreover, cutting through the defenses erected on the Czech-German border would have inflicted a good deal of damage on the Wehrmacht. It would have been a good long while before they would have been in a position to mount a major offensive against France and when they did they’d still have been doing it with far fewer tanks than they otherwise had.

by the time the us and britain mounted a real counterattack, germany had had time to demonstrate its battle tactics, become overextended, and expend a lot of men and materiel on the soviet union

if the allies had attacked before 1939, they would have attacked a compact and fresh germany

175 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:26:19pm

re: #162 William Barnett-Lewis

That last is where we part company. A sweep through Belgum would have left the Germans fighting better quality French troops that they historically bypassed. They’d have been unlikely to make it to Paris.

176 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:26:26pm
177 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:26:54pm

re: #171 Charles Johnson

Some progress is always better than no progress.

Only to (cough) Progressives.

178 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:26:56pm

And that’s true. This seems to go way beyond previous deals with Iran.

179 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:27:11pm

Expect the ODS to dial up to 11.

180 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:27:52pm

re: #163 Learned Pie Of Zion

[Embedded content]

A real live actual politician in office would tweet that?

That is so wrong on so many levels. Cornyn…what an ass you are. You no longer deserve any respect when you can’t respect yourself.

I swear…twitter sometimes…turns people that should know better into complete shits.

181 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:27:55pm
182 GlutenFreeJesus  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:28:57pm

re: #151 austin_blue

I love how spell check didn’t catch “pre-emotion”. Especially that with Neocons, it’s actually kind of appropriate!

lol I know. Had to fix it though. Have me the creeps.

183 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:28:57pm
184 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:29:21pm

GOP Complains Iran Deal Smells ‘Too Muslim’

demand administration implement same plan with romney’s name on it from the parallel universe

185 freetoken  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:29:29pm

re: #179 Amory Blaine

Expect the ODS to dial up to 11.

Clearly Obama is the Antichrist, bringing false “peace” to the world.

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:29:37pm

A big reason why I’m still here: This is one of very few places where an intelligent discussion of WWII can be had.

187 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:30:03pm

ouch. I’m sick and tired of allegedly intellegent people grasping at arguments of convenience, especially when there is a rich historical record to find out what really happened. To add a few more surprising details, the western tanks were generally superior to the German ones, even with the addition of the Czech tanks. The problems with the west was they didn’t know what they were doing. Funny thing about the Germans is that as a result of the peace treaty, they could only have an army of 100k. These 100k soldiers were the best the Germans had, and they had absolutely nothing to do but seethe and plot. The German rearmament began BEFORE Hitler came to power. In the meantime, the British were distracted by the Italians and Japanese, and the French were, well, French.

188 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:30:22pm

re: #183 teleskiguy

WTFITS, Senator?

Really?

Really?

189 The War TARDIS  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:30:29pm

Oh look, the Guardian is trying to be high-minded with Doctor Who.

The Guardian’s Viv Grospok criticised various elements of the episode, though concluded that “it was all worth it.”

Capaldi will summarize my thoughts of the Guardian in general.

Youtube Video

190 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:30:32pm

re: #183 teleskiguy

The kind of representation we’ve come to expect in Texas.

191 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:30:50pm

re: #172 Romantic Heretic

On this, D_F is right.

However, every speech the Bush administration gave on the subject of Iraq in the year leading up to the invasion they made sure that ‘Saddam Hussein’ and ‘weapons of mass destruction’ were used often. Many times the phrases were in the same paragraph.

They counted on the American people being too busy pissing themselves with fear to deconstruct those speeches.

They were right too.

Um, again, “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.” -Condi Rice.

That’s not just some nebulous reference to WMD as a category that needs deconstructing, that’s selling a very specific, nuclear, type of threat. One Bush’s administration spend a lot of time deliberately crafting.

192 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:31:17pm

speaking of which, i have my own schieffen plan:

don’t ever let yourself get caught schieffen

193 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:31:47pm

re: #169 Political Atheist

Sorry, not what I mean. Let me re state.
The logic of the deal is sound, proportionate to verification and enforcement.

The logic of associating Iran now and the Iraq debacle is partisan and therefore highly suspect.

I do think everyone here is on the same page regarding verification and enforcement (and if you haven’t read the NY Times article Lidane linked to above, you should).

Your second point tries to pretend, in some ways, that we are not still coming off of a costly engagement that was sold to us in part to prevent a regime that had been historically hostile to the US from obtaining WMD, up to and including nuclear missiles. The problem is, we are. That is the lens some of this is going to be interpreted through, no matter what is done. And so less credence is going to be given to the opinion of those who pushed strongly for the war in Iraq, and more skepticism is going to be applied towards a need for action beyond sanctions in Iran. As it should be. This is not the same as pretending Iran isn’t doing anything at all, but it does mean that the same skepticism that should be applied to ALL CLAIMS is going to be applied here.

I don’t think that’s partisan politics.

194 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:31:49pm

re: #183 teleskiguy

195 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:32:10pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Baloney! France would have been in a relatively stronger position in 1938 than it was in 1940. Germany would have had 1 less year of production of the crucial Mark III and Mark IV panzers, and would have had far fewer of the Czechoslovakian tanks they used to bulk out their panzer divisions.

Moreover, the Germans would have been attacking using a much less effective plan than the “Sickle Cut” plan Gen. von Manstein created in the winter of 1939-1940.

Perhaps D_F.

But the Germans, thanks to mostly to Guderian, were fighting WWII while the Allies were fighting WWI. Plus France especially was saddled with a rather incompetent upper officer corps and the country itself was teetering at the edge of chaos thanks to the sharp political divisions of the time.

I’m of the opinion that it would have taken longer than Der Sickleschnitt but the Germans would still have won.

196 SteveMcGazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:32:55pm

re: 186 Dark Falcon

At least hold up your end of the discussion. You’re grasping at bullet points that are easily contrdicted in the record.

197 sagehen  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:32:56pm

re: #189 The War TARDIS

Oh look, the Guardian is trying to be high-minded with Doctor Who.

Capaldi will summarize my thoughts of the Guardian in general.

[Embedded content]

Was Malcolm Tucker the one who came up with “omnishambles”, or was it some other character from that show?

198 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:33:23pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

You’re ignorant! That’s the Wright Brothers’ plane! In Kitty Hawk in 1903, Charles Lindbergh flew it 15 miles on a thimble full of corn oil. Single-handedly won us the Civil War, it did.
-Grandpa Simpson

199 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:33:31pm

re: #190 jaunte

The kind of representation we’ve come to expect in Texas.

You guy’s senators are whack!

200 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:34:40pm

re: #162 William Barnett-Lewis

Thanks.

201 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:35:05pm

re: #169 Political Atheist

Sorry, not what I mean. Let me re state.
The logic of the deal is sound, proportionate to verification and enforcement.

The logic of associating Iran now and the Iraq debacle is partisan and therefore highly suspect.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind many of the comments that are already showing (and many that I think we all know will be coming) are from some of the same people that had certain partisan political stances in the Iraq then and will be weighing in on Iran now.

I can certainly understand your viewpoint. I think others are looking at this topic and comments on the wider scope of political positioning already going on.

You’re using your own correct reasoning and keeping politics out of it for your own purpose…and partisan politics can’t have that!

202 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:35:28pm


Maybe someone’s intern is going to get a talking to.

203 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:35:33pm
According to a senior U.S. administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, the deal halts Tehran’s nuclear program, including halting the development at the Arak reactor and requiring all of the uranium enriched to 20 percent — close to weapons-grade — to be diluted so it cannot be converted for military purposes.
204 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:35:43pm

OK, going to watch the Avalanche hopefully defeat the Kings. I’ll check back later.

Peace.

205 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:22pm

re: #198 Varek Raith

What the what?

206 The War TARDIS  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:28pm

re: #197 sagehen

Looked it up, and yep!

207 dr. klys  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:29pm

Dinner demands starting. Back in a bit.

208 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:30pm
209 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:32pm

re: #203 Varek Raith

cnn.com

210 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:37pm

re: #173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

What are you talking about? Associating them how?

What I refer to is undue reluctance by some to see or admit the nuclear weapon potential Iran represents because we were so wrong about Iraq the second time around.

211 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:36:43pm

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

What the what?

Just being silly.

212 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:37:18pm
213 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:38:05pm

re: #204 teleskiguy

OK, going to watch the Avalanche hopefully defeat the Kings. I’ll check back later.

Peace.

Hopefully for you Colorado has gotten its head cleared from the shelling they got from the Blackhawks.

/6 goals in one game is a shelling in my book.

214 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:38:16pm

re: #208 Stanley Sea

Obama: My first preference is to solve this problem peacefully. #Iran

That’s a really good use of the ‘Chicago’ dialect.

215 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:39:32pm
216 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:39:41pm

re: #181 Charles Johnson

Does anyone else think he’s a better Secretary of State than he would have been as President? And I say this as someone who voted for him.

217 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:41:08pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

A big reason why I’m still here: This is one of very few places where an intelligent discussion of WWII can be had.

You do know there is quite a statement left unsaid in that comment.

Can we guess of the reason why you wouldn’t be here if not for the banter on the history of WW2?

/door was open…and a good artist can see the negative space within the positive elements!

218 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:41:44pm

re: #217 ObserverArt

You do know there is quite a statement left unsaid in that comment.

Can we guess of the reason why you wouldn’t be here if not for the banter on the history of WW2?

/door was open…and a good artist can see the negative space within the positive elements!

I’m just here for the porn.
Wait, what?

219 b.d.  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:41:55pm

So today Ted Cruz is the sane Texas senator?

220 Stanley Sea  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:41:58pm
221 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:42:17pm

re: #210 Political Atheist

What I refer to is undue reluctance by some to see or admit the nuclear weapon potential Iran represents because we were so wrong about Iraq the second time around.

What undue reluctance, though? Our intelligence agencies have said they’re not trying to develop a nuke right now. I’ve always been more concerned about them just buying one, anyhow.

And we weren’t wrong about Iraq. There was a long, concerted campaign by people who were convinced by ideology (and some by personal interest), rather than evidence, that an attack on Iraq would be a good thing. The problems with the story were pointed out at each and every point, but were unfortunately ignored.

Again: We’re not going to be able to keep people from nukes, long-term. We couldn’t keep broke-ass-incredibly-crazy-North-Korea from getting them, or always-about-to-fall-Islamic-Chaos-Pakistan, or I-can’t-think-of-anything-snappy-India. If our plan is “Stop unstable or hostile countries from getting nukes” we are already failing badly and sober assessment says that plan can only fail in the future.

222 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:01pm

re: #216 William Barnett-Lewis

Does anyone else think he’s a better Secretary of State than he would have been as President? And I say this as someone who voted for him.

The same can be said for HRC and her tenure over State.

223 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:30pm

re: #217 ObserverArt

You do know there is quite a statement left unsaid in that comment.

Can we guess of the reason why you wouldn’t be here if not for the banter on the history of WW2?

/door was open…and a good artist can see the negative space within the positive elements!

I said “a big reason”. It’s not the only or even the biggest reason. The biggest reason is that Charles was and still is anti-nutcase. This is a blog that keeps the crazies out.

224 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:32pm

re: #218 Varek Raith

I’m just here for the porn.
Wait, what?

Image: 2033229-monstarandskyrunner.jpg

225 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:45pm

re: #219 b.d.

So today Ted Cruz is the sane Texas senator?

You say that like you think there has to be one.

226 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:53pm

re: #201 ObserverArt

Not necessarily. Keep in mind many of the comments that are already showing (and many that I think we all know will be coming) are from some of the same people that had certain partisan political stances in the Iraq then and will be weighing in on Iran now.

I can certainly understand your viewpoint. I think others are looking at this topic and comments on the wider scope of political positioning already going on.

You’re using your own correct reasoning and keeping politics out of it for your own purpose…and partisan politics can’t have that!

Partisan politics certainly color the discussions. They serve to distort more than help. This in not Bush, Or neocons. They have no power. It’s Obama in charge. Iraq has little to nothing to do with the wisdom of this deal.

227 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:43:55pm
228 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:44:58pm

re: #227 Charles Johnson


Which in turn is just to distract from Benghazi.

229 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:45:18pm

re: #224 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Image: 2033229-monstarandskyrunner.jpg

Silver Hawks… That’s a blast from the past. What made you choose that image, Obdi?

230 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:45:44pm

re: #219 b.d.

So today Ted Cruz is the sane Texas senator?

They’re like the Graeae, but they have one brain between them.

en.wikipedia.org

231 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:45:45pm
232 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:46:16pm

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

Silver Hawks… That’s a blast from the past. What made you choose that image, Obdi?

7th GIS result for “enormous space weapon”

233 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:46:25pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

You are assuming Hitler could have taken those Czech factories intact, which was no sure thing. Moreover, cutting through the defenses erected on the Czech-German border would have inflicted a good deal of damage on the Wehrmacht. It would have been a good long while before they would have been in a position to mount a major offensive against France and when they did they’d still have been doing it with far fewer tanks than they otherwise had.

It wasn’t the number of tanks, D_F. It was the doctrine by which they were used.

Remember the Allies had more and often, in some ways better, tanks than the Germans. For example, the Souma S35 or the Char 2C.

But the Germans had a proper doctrine for armoured warfare and the Allies did not. In addition the Germans had generally better infantry and a much better airforce. To top it off, the Germans generally had much better morale, especially compared to the French.

At that stage of the war, I don’t think there was anything that could have stopped France from falling.

234 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:46:47pm

re: #232 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

7th GIS result for “enormous space weapon”

Ah google, don’t ever change.

235 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:46:53pm

re: #221 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Just want to keep nukes away from the Republic of Texas.

236 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:46:53pm

re: #227 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

237 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:47:27pm
238 AlexRogan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:47:53pm

re: #228 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Which in turn is just to distract from Benghazi.

I wonder who’s going to be first to somehow thread Benghazi into this Iran business…

239 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:48:22pm

re: #228 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

[Embedded content]


Which in turn is just to distract from Benghazi.

Arugula all the way down.

240 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:48:27pm

re: #235 Decatur Deb

Just want to keep nukes away from the Republic of Texas.

Shit, Texas has Pantex.

241 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:49:11pm

re: #235 Decatur Deb

Just want to keep nukes away from the Republic of Texas.

Yeehaw!

Image: Pickens_in_Strangelove.jpg

242 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:50:00pm

re: #238 AlexRogan

I wonder who’s going to be first to somehow thread Benghazi into this Iran business…

I was. Just now.

243 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:51:56pm

re: #226 Political Atheist

Partisan politics certainly color the discussions. They serve to distort more than help. This in not Bush, Or neocons. They have no power. It’s Obama in charge. Iraq has little to nothing to do with the wisdom of this deal.

I’m fine with that. And I knew where you were coming from.

But nothing will stop the partisan politics. Certainly there has been very little wisdom behind them for how many years now. To me they color more than discussion. Too many take them as gospel. Can’t be overlooked in my estimation. I try not to apply sense to politics anymore. I’d love to be proven wrong.

And pardon me, but the neocon thinking is still around, just off stage right.

244 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:52:45pm

re: #221 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

And we weren’t wrong about Iraq.

You misunderstand me. I meant we were wrong, as in the WMD’s were not there the second time around.

245 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:54:06pm

re: #228 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

[Embedded content]


Which in turn is just to distract from Benghazi.

Which in turn and along with the IRS is ginned up to distract from Obamacare!

246 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:56:35pm

re: #233 Romantic Heretic

It wasn’t the number of tanks, D_F. It was the doctrine by which they were used.

Remember the Allies had more and often, in some ways better, tanks than the Germans. For example, the Souma S35 or the Char 2C.

But the Germans had a proper doctrine for armoured warfare and the Allies did not. In addition the Germans had generally better infantry and a much better airforce. To top it off, the Germans generally had much better morale, especially compared to the French.

At that stage of the war, I don’t think there was anything that could have stopped France from falling.

I’m aware of those points. But its worth noting that the lessons learned in the takeover of Austria hadn’t been fully assimilated in the fall of 1938, and having fewer tanks would have forced the Germans to attack head-on, which would have hurt them badly.

Moreover, an earlier war would have denied Germany the glider assault used to take fort Eben Emael in Belgium (the shaped charges used in the attack were not developed until the late fall of 1939). The Germans would have lost a good deal of time knocking out Belgium’s forts and would have had to face the French after having done so, or while doing so (which might have been worse).

247 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 7:59:20pm
248 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:00:59pm

I’ve actually recently read Osprey’s Vercors 1944, number 249 in their Campaign series. It looks at two battles in the French Alps as the Germans fought to destroy French Forces of the Interior (FFI) would had taken control of two critical areas in the Alps. The book has some interesting bearing on the political divisions within France in the late 1930’s-early 1940’s.

249 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:01:10pm

re: #244 Political Atheist

You misunderstand me. I meant we were wrong, as in the WMD’s were not there the second time around.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But ‘we’ weren’t wrong. Some people were wrong. Others, who said that Iraq did not have WMDs, who said that the Bush administration was interpreting evidence in a skewed way, etc., were right.

Anyway, if we actually get to dilute the 20% uranium then that’s a nice tick backwards on the doomsday clock. I doubt it, but it’d be nice.

250 The War TARDIS  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:01:34pm

Doctor Who has even taken over Raw Story!

The surprising struggles — and heart — behind ‘Doctor Who’s’ birth.

251 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:02:59pm

Oh hey and by way of really showing how stupid partisan motivations can be, do note this pretty much calls total bullshit on accusations from a couple weeks ago that Obama had already secretly reduced or removed sanctions. That was all over the RWNJ net sphere.

252 jvic  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:05:24pm

1. I’m no expert on WW2, but:

In 1960, William Shirer in his classic, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, took the view that although Hitler was not bluffing about his intention to invade, Czechoslovakia would have been able to offer significant resistance. Shirer believed that Britain and France had sufficient air defences to avoid serious bombing of London and Paris and would have been able to pursue a rapid and successful war against Germany.[30] He quotes Churchill as saying the Munich agreement meant that “Britain and France were in a much worse position compared to Hitler’s Germany”.[25] After Adolf Hilter personally inspected the Czech fortifications, he privately said to Joseph Goebbels, “we would have shed a lot of blood” and that it was fortunate that there had been no fighting.[31]

2. re: #186 Dark_Falcon

A big reason why I’m still here: This is one of very few places where an intelligent discussion of WWII can be had.

Even after I realized I had to quit smoking, it took some time and false starts to get serious.

I’m not alluding to LGF, but to the commented blogosphere as a whole. My temperament is not combative, and dealing with tactical toxicity isn’t worth the aggravation anymore. The kind of thing that I would once have perceived as pointedly witty, I now perceive as obnoxious. I don’t know (nor am I terribly curious) if blogs have changed, I’ve changed, or both.

3. Contributing to #2 is that I have little confidence in either major party. In my time there have been three successful Presidents afaic: Eisenhower, Reagan, and Clinton. I don’t see another one on the horizon.

253 jaunte  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:07:13pm
254 ObserverArt  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:08:19pm

re: #251 Political Atheist

Oh hey and by way of really showing how stupid partisan motivations can be, do note this pretty much calls total bullshit on accusations from a couple weeks ago that Obama had already secretly reduced or removed sanctions. That was all over the RWNJ net sphere.

Tomorrows political shows are going to be interesting.

255 The War TARDIS  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:12:15pm

re: #252 jvic

I also want to point out that, when NAZI Germany did attack Poland later, the Nazis didn’t exactly get out unharmed.

However, I have no foggy idea how Reagan can be thought of as a good president.

256 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:12:51pm

re: #249 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Given time and confidence building policies, Iran can become a trusted nuclear power. Electricity, isotopes for industrial and medical uses etc.

Across the world from Iran we have an example of how well that can work out.

Japan could make nuclear weapons really easily, should they choose. They are allowed to run reactors that use weapons grade material. They have the computing and engineering capacity. Obviously their policy and trustworthiness plays a big part of that. I would imagine China is not thrilled with that but Japan is not belligerent in actions or policy or rhetoric. So we just don’t see the kind of concern about japan we see about Iran, North Korea etc.

257 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:14:07pm

re: #255 The War TARDIS

However, I have no foggy idea how Reagan can be thought of as a good president.

Because the Democratic party in the 1980s was a sprawling black hole of failure and incompetence. It took getting a national humilation in 1984 for them to even start rejoining the real world again.

258 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:15:11pm

re: #255 The War TARDIS

I also want to point out that, when NAZI Germany did attack Poland later, the Nazis didn’t exactly get out unharmed.

However, I have no foggy idea how Reagan can be thought of as a good president.

Jvic said that Reagan was successful, and an excellent case can be made to that effect.

But let’s not have that discussion tonight. I’d rather stick to WWII, because if we start talking about Reagan tempers are liable to flare again.

259 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:16:08pm

re: #152 Learned Pie Of Zion

WTFITS

Jim Hoft @gatewaypundit

Obama Sells Israel Down the River- Deal Reached With Iran; Sanctions Eased

Patrick Dollard @PatDollard

SECOND HOLOCAUST, MASS MURDER: Obama Reaches Phony Deal In Order To Allow Iran Enough Time To Build Nuclear Arsenal

[Embedded content]

Yikes! It’s the Derp-ocalypse!

260 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:24:17pm

re: #258 Dark_Falcon

Jvic said that Reagan was successful, and an excellent case can be made to that effect.

But let’s not have that discussion tonight. I’d rather stick to WWII, because if we start talking about Reagan tempers are liable to flare again.

I wasn’t alive during WW2. I enjoy reading about history and you sure know your stuff..
I was a young shit kicking guy with the world at my view and at my hands.
I was dating my future wife and the future was bright to us.
I have never been so embarrassed to be an American as I was under Carter. My face is still red from those days. I couldn’t wait to vote for Reagan…444 effening days of shame..It took till 2010 to get me to register as a Dem and I still despise Carter

261 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:24:46pm

So I put on the hazmat suit and hip waders and ventured to Free Republic. Freepers are taking the Iran deal in their usual calm, reasonable manner:

Don’t like this one bit.

Barry is going to use every bit of his power to destroy the United States and gives Islamic countries like Iran MORE power.
—

We’re screwed, no details needed.
—

Is this the Valerie Jarrett deal she was working on for Barry behind Kerry’s back? Kerry has never had an original thought, so it can’t be HIS handiwork.
—

Time for Israel to warm up their nukes…
—

So who will Obama bow to and what will he apologize for?
—

We are living in the world’s subpar power now known as Obamaland. The next holocaust is on our shoulders.
—

It’s all in preparation for the liberation of the North American continent. When his 8 years are done, things will be all set for the liberation to begin.

Muslims are known for their ability to work through very long range plans.
—

Israel should strike this very day. Make it clear that the link between the deal and war is direct.
—

We are screwed. Israel is screwed. We may as well have AQ running our country.
—

And those are all from the first page. Wheee!

262 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:26:02pm

Big long term thing - Lets not forget this might really matter in terms of global warming. lots of places will need to make electricity with nuclear power to reduce fossil fuel use. Many of those places are going to be problematic. Maybe this will teach us how to build a workable nuclear policy that protects us and promotes peaceful use.

263 William of Orange  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:26:02pm

Taken face value, this is good news all around. I expect in return Iran will be able to put their oil on the world market. Increasing supply means the price will fall.

Israel is robbed of their urge to bomb the hell out of Iran. Again, another factor where I expect that the price of oil will fall.

Nuclear thread gone. Politics will be cooling down as well. And no invasion by the US of A expected in Iran. Again; price of oil will fall.

Companies that profited from the Iraq war and are thriving on a high oil price will get a dose of reality. I like that.


But how much trust will Iran have? Will they keep their end of the bargain?

264 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:26:34pm

I put on a HazMat suit and waded into that sick freak Todd Kincannon’s Twitter feed. What a horror show!

265 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:30:03pm

Projecting much?

266 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:33:29pm

it’s still fuzzy, but Jerusalem Post reports that international observers are to have access to all nuke facilities:

jpost.com

267 William of Orange  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:34:41pm

re: #265 teleskiguy

Projecting much?

[Embedded content]

Time for an iron ball and chain. Into the gulag! “@toddkincannon” is already there.

268 Belafon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:34:46pm

re: #265 teleskiguy

“He just won’t invade enough countries!”

269 dog philosopher  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:36:58pm

re: #261 Lidane

So I put on the hazmat suit and hip waders and ventured to Free Republic. Freepers are taking the Iran deal in their usual calm, reasonable manner:

And those are all from the first page. Wheee!

time to start another 6 month period at the end of which iran will definitely have nuclear weapons

270 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:40:35pm

Tech note about Pages

I could not figure out why I was having a hard time Paging video from my very own YouTube channels. But not others. I do not understand this, but if I’m signed in at YT I get stuck at the spinning wheel. But once I sign out and reload the Page no more problem,

Based on the Purple gold video-I got a confirmed deal to make a bunch more videos on exotic gold and jewelry use with technology. If I can get sat down with that machine that 3d prints gold I’ll just have to share that here.

271 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:40:52pm

re: #269 dog philosopher

time to start another 6 month period at the end of which iran will definitely have nuclear weapons

Friedman Units 2: Iranian Boogaloo

272 darthstar  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:43:08pm

Iran reaches a deal with everyone, and the US is listed last? Nice leading from behind, Obama!

Seriously, I knew this would happen a few weeks ago when all the doubters got their pants in a wad and claimed the US was fucking everything up…assholes.

And don’t give me that “Israel will start a war anyway” crap…Israel won’t move without the US backing it. Period.

273 piratedan  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:45:29pm

re: #220 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

stonekettle is a really great site, I would easily recommend it to folks that want a navy vet’s take on things…

274 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:45:59pm

Man, Okie State has just beaten the FUCK out of Baylor. 49-17? Poor Baptists!

275 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:49:32pm

Dudebro actually says something worth pondering.

276 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:49:35pm

I’m out.
Later

277 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:51:12pm

Speaking of Hazmat.. A picture of me preping nuclear valve CD-39 to remove the radioactive pellets. It’s what we called a Zoomie job. Hot Shit if there is a spill.
Just a tad bit dangerous..

So a little background..What do you learn to do early on with these jobs? First off you lose 5 lbs of weight from sweating like a pig so everybody is in only their underwear under the layers of protective Nuclear clothing. “Anti-C” Sweat like crazy but You’d be so jealous. Part of our undercoating was pure silk so the plastic shit didn’t stick to you..Haha..Don’t want to tell stories out of school..But that pure silk was pretty sexy..Felt good. I’m pretty sure everybody took some home to the wife or hubby..On going joke. Pure white Silk..Whoa..
The problem was at first I didn’t think to bring clean, dry underwear to work every day..Think about it, You don’t take underwear to work every day.
So if your number gets pulled to go work in full Anti-C’s in the morning you are walking around the rest of the day with wet underwear on underneath your clothes. It’s like having a wet swimming suit on under your clothes..It just doesn’t work. As a Nuke you take dry underwear to work every day. Who Knew?

278 William of Orange  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:54:57pm


HAHAHAAA!!!!1 Cornyn punked!

279 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 8:55:34pm

re: #274 austin_blue

Man, Okie State has just beaten the FUCK out of Baylor. 49-17? Poor Baptists!

I ran my errands during the first quarter of the OU game here in Norman this morning. Not a soul anywhere.. I was in and out every store..
OU Won so no drunken fights in the streets around me…

280 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:03:15pm
281 William of Orange  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:03:30pm

LOL

282 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:03:34pm

re: #277 HoosierHoops

Is that really you? Holly shit, I had no idea.

283 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:06:05pm

I really good Marcus Aurelius quote from tonight’s Dr. Who
“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
― Marcus Aurelius

284 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:06:21pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout

Is that really you? Holly shit, I had no idea.

Brother.. I spent 20 years as a Nuke for the Navy.

285 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:09:30pm

re: #280 Lidane

Patton Oswalt has these moments of pure awesome from time to time on Twitter. I’d qualify this conversation as one of those.

286 darthstar  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:19:56pm

re: #280 Lidane

[Embedded content]

That whole thread between Sloan and Oswalt is hilarious. Puppies!

287 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:22:40pm

Good Night, All.

288 sagehen  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:22:46pm

re: #257 Lidane

Because the Democratic party in the 1980s was a sprawling black hole of failure and incompetence. It took getting a national humilation in 1984 for them to even start rejoining the real world again.

They were incompetent before that — how do you think Reagan got elected in the first place?

After Nixon, any bipedal carbon-based life form with a D by their name could win in ‘76… and the D’s wasted that opportunity on somebody who couldn’t do the job.

289 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:31:37pm

Comcast, Charter Said to Weigh Time Warner Cable Breakup

Comcast Corp. (CMCSA) and Charter (CHTR) Communications Inc., aiming to reshape the cable industry, have discussed a joint bid to buy Time Warner Cable (TWC) Inc. and divvy up its customers, people with knowledge of the matter said.

Each company’s coverage area could be enhanced by adding parts of Time Warner Cable’s network, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the matter is private. The talks between Comcast and Charter have been preliminary, and a Time Warner Cable breakup is one option amid several under consideration, the people said.

290 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:42:39pm

The newest hashtag trend: #ObamacareDistractions

Heh.

291 sagehen  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:46:46pm

Doctor Who’s 50th special commercial-free global simulcast — was to distract us from Obamacare.

Even the title is a giveaway — Day of the Doctor, really?

292 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 9:51:28pm

re: #291 sagehen

Ha!

293 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:05:46pm

re: #292 prairiefire

Ha!

Hi You..Saturday night at 12pm..I’m watching the food network..Send help!
Really..I’ve been watching for about a year and learning to cook..
It is a joy. Thursday night the ladies of the Lodge were in a cooking contest and there I am..The big ham with his spoon tasting the sauces..mmm That has a really nutty favor with a flavourful hot backend..How do you do it?
This boy is set for sauces..

294 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:07:42pm

re: #289 Amory Blaine

TW Cable sucketh. Breaking it up could ONLY be good for the consumer.
I had TW Cable in LA, same service from a different company, further south, but in the same state is 1/4 of what TW Cable cost.

295 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:11:31pm

re: #293 HoosierHoops

Giggles.
I’m learning to cook too!
Melinda lee dot com!
Also “the cruising chef cookbook”
and “healthy cooking for two, or just for you”
Amazon is your friend!
*waves*

296 HoosierHoops  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:22:51pm

re: #294 Dancing along the light of day

TW Cable sucketh. Breaking it up could ONLY be good for the consumer.
I had TW Cable in LA, same service from a different company, further south, but in the same state is 1/4 of what TW Cable cost.

I got Cox now..Pricey..I’ll be moving to Charter in a few weeks..They offer Cable, Internet and Phone for 29.99/month for 6 months. Then It goes up to 109.00 or so. I’ve bad things about the Internet connection stability but really..But really? The Post Office doesn’t even deliver to my new home..
LOL..Oh Floral..As time draws nigh..I ether have bigger balls than anybody or else am the dumbest M****F***er known to man..
I’m going for it..No matter what that email I gave you works..Phone and work stuff will stop working..
I’m blessed to be back in Napa Valley soon.. Nikki is getting married..

297 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:28:25pm

re: #296 HoosierHoops

Ready, set?
Get yer phone out!
Don’t want to scare Winston!

298 Kragar  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:28:47pm

Trying to convert some Lascannons to melta cannons. Sorting thru bits, trying to find a fix.

299 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:30:36pm

re: #296 HoosierHoops

Incomming!

300 Tigger2  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:36:41pm

re: #261 Lidane

So I put on the hazmat suit and hip waders and ventured to Free Republic. Freepers are taking the Iran deal in their usual calm, reasonable manner:

And those are all from the first page. Wheee!

I wonder if they know how stupid they look to the majority of Americans.

301 teleskiguy  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:38:29pm

re: #300 Tigger2

I wonder if they know how stupid they look the the majority of Americans.

Thankfully “the majority of Americans” don’t frequent websites like freerepublic. If they did, our country would be in pretty sorry shape by now.

302 Tigger2  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 10:51:17pm

re: #301 teleskiguy

Thankfully “the majority of Americans” don’t frequent websites like freerepublic. If they did, our country would be in pretty sorry shape by now.

No but those kind of comments make it out to the mainstream a lot of times.

303 ausador  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:09:32pm

People are already lining up for “Black Friday” at some stores….What. The. Hell?

How can any possible discount on a T.V. or tablet or whatever be worth an entire week of your life spent living on a store sidewalk?

304 sagehen  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:12:00pm

Depends if you like the people who live in your house — maybe it’s a good excuse to get away from them.

305 Kragar  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:18:36pm

re: #303 ausador

People are already lining up for “Black Friday” at some stores….What. The. Hell?

How can any possible discount on a T.V. or tablet or whatever be worth an entire week of your life spent living on a store sidewalk?

I boycott Black Friday. Its not worth the aggravation.

306 Lidane  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:26:46pm

re: #305 Kragar

I boycott Black Friday. Its not worth the aggravation.

Same here. You couldn’t pay me to go anywhere near a Black Friday sale. I’d rather have a root canal without the happy fun drugs.

307 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:31:22pm

re: #293 HoosierHoops

Oh, I see what you did. Learn how to make a basic rue, then you can make your own sauces!

308 freetoken  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:31:53pm

Black Friday is in linkage disequilibrium with the Gregorian calendar.


Time to step away from the genomics papers….

309 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:33:45pm

re: #308 freetoken

How many black sheep have you found?

310 freetoken  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:37:30pm

re: #296 HoosierHoops

Yeah, Cox recently raised their prices for internet, again. Supposedly the throughput is higher, but from what I’ve seen it is not significantly so.

311 freetoken  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:37:43pm

re: #306 Lidane

MP3 Audio

312 freetoken  Sat, Nov 23, 2013 11:55:25pm

Supposedly Josephine Baker:

MP3 Audio

313 palomino  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:05:46am

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Nobody was saying he had nukes.

Bullshit. Have you forgotten the oft-repeated mantra of “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”? Condi, Cheney and practically everyone else trying to sell the war used that phrase. It has no other meaning than a clear implication that Saddam had nukes.

Please don’t do this. Rewriting recent history and feigning amnesia is beneath you.

314 Kragar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:07:59am

re: #313 palomino

Bullshit. Have you forgotten the oft-repeated mantra of “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”? Condi, Cheney and practically everyone else trying to sell the war used that phrase. It has no other meaning than a clear implication that Saddam had nukes.

Please don’t do this. Rewriting recent history and feigning amnesia is beneath you.

Don’t forget the whole “yellow cake” story.

315 Lidane  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:16:49am

re: #313 palomino

Bullshit. Have you forgotten the oft-repeated mantra of “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”? Condi, Cheney and practically everyone else trying to sell the war used that phrase. It has no other meaning than a clear implication that Saddam had nukes.

Hell, Bush outright implied that Iraq was a potential nuclear threat. Case in point:

Did the Bush Administration exaggerate the threat from Iraq?

It was perhaps the most compelling reason for the U.S. to go to war against Saddam Hussein — namely that he was rebuilding his nuclear weapons program. But that allegation has now come back to embarrass the President.

The White House now acknowledges President Bush should never have said this in his State of the Union address in January.

The implication that Saddam had nukes or was rebuilding Iraq’s nuclear program was known as the sixteen words controversy.

316 palomino  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:19:11am

re: #314 Kragar

Don’t forget the whole “yellow cake” story.

Niger, Joe Wilson, and an outed CIA agent. A truly disgusting play by Cheney.

317 piratedan  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:19:19am

re: #315 Lidane

Hell, Bush outright implied that Iraq was a potential nuclear threat. Case in point:

Did the Bush Administration exaggerate the threat from Iraq?

The implication that Saddam had nukes or was rebuilding Iraq’s nuclear program was known as the sixteen words controversy.

yeah but Bush brought honor and respect back to the Presidency because there was no way that he was getting oral sex from anyone other than the WH press corps //////

318 Kragar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:20:47am
319 palomino  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:21:07am

re: #315 Lidane

It really is astonishing how quickly some people have forgotten big details of the war that started a mere decade ago. Especially since many of these people spent so much time cheerleading the invasion and occupation.

320 Lidane  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:28:26am

re: #319 palomino

It really is astonishing how quickly some people have forgotten big details of the war that started a mere decade ago. Especially since many of these people spent so much time cheerleading the invasion and occupation.

Seriously. The lies and manipulation to gin up Bush’s invasion of Iraq were blatant and included everything from turning Saddam into an Al-Qaeda ally (hilariously wrong, since OBL hated secular leaders like Saddam) all the way up to implying that Iraq was rebuilding their nuclear program and they’d be a rogue state iwth nukes.

It still galls me that the architects of that war are free to draw massive speaking fees and live private lives. WTF.

321 Kragar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:31:37am
322 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:39:52am

re: #313 palomino

It is smoke and mirrors for the public record on purpose. A volcanic collusion of narcy personalities. Cheney, Rumsfield, Bush, Wolfe, (oy vey) Gonzalez, Ashcroft.

323 piratedan  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 12:55:36am

re: #322 prairiefire

It is smoke and mirrors for the public record on purpose. A volcanic collusion of narcy personalities. Cheney, Rumsfield, Bush, Wolfe, (oy vey) Gonzalez, Ashcroft.

plus it makes it very difficult to sort the villains from the dupes versus those honest folks being conned. I still have doubts as to who was driving the bus and whose agenda was being promoted. I’ve come to believe that Cheney was the main orchestrator using Bush’s weakness about Iraq against him to promote the war and make some profit with his pals at Haliburton. Shuts the press up about 9/11 because they’ll just play the patriot card, has the benefit of making Powell look like a fool and profit for everyone, we’ll be hailed as liberators yada yada yada. Shuts up those clean energy stuff after they negotiate some sweet deals as they establish their puppet regime.

The questions for me:

Was Rumsfield in on it?
Rice?
How involved was Bush?

Plus the aftermath with Gonzalez, Yoo and the treatment of those detained and their inability to show reason, compassion, logic in the treatment of those folks and to actually expedite the conflict.

Simpletons? Cunning machiavellians? some of each?

324 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 1:05:39am

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

But RWC’s isn’t those people. He’s his own man, as am I. Don’t treat us like we’re generic wingnuts.

It’s difficult considering the current GOP doesn’t consider women to be human beings.

325 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 1:11:58am

source not checked, but still good

326 sagehen  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 1:16:45am

re: #323 piratedan

My theory? It’s a patchwork of motivations.

For Cheney — it was about oil, and Halliburton.
For Wolfewicz, Feith and the rest of the PNAC crowd — it was about redrawing the map of the Middle East more to their liking.
For Rumsfeld, it was about proving his theory of a downsized/privatized military.
For Rove, it was about wanting a campaign theme for the ‘02 midterms.
For Powell and Rice, it was serving Bush II out of loyalty to Bush I.
For evangelicals, it was about getting revenge on Babylon for something that happened 2500 years ago.
For Bush, it was about dragging the whole world into his personal Oedipal drama.
For Gonzalez and Yoo, it was acting as advocates for The Bushies, forgetting that they were supposed to be serving the Nation.
For authoritarian wingnuts, it was about directing their anger wherever the people they’d chosen to follow told them to direct it.

327 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 1:43:04am

re: #323 piratedan

How could a Us Sec. of Def. be so nonchalant about the soldiers’ death, the 3000 plus dead after the declaration of victory. When W held a helmet in his arm.

328 freetoken  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 2:49:14am

MP3 Audio

329 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 3:50:23am

blechhh

Thought my body clock was already frakked!?!?!

This week, I have one overnight shift, followed by two day shifts, followed by two overnights, then one more day

Joy!

330 rosiee  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 3:52:42am

Bolstering a mad theocracy.
Sanctions were working, why suddenly kowtow?

331 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:03:41am

Gonna be awhile till Willie Nelsons band goes On The Road Again

dfw.cbslocal.com

Slick road conditions contributed to several traffic accidents Saturday, including a tour bus hauling singer Willie Nelson’s band.

Three band members were hurt when their bus plowed into a bridge pillar in East Texas during rainy conditions.

332 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:05:54am

re: #330 rosiee

Bolstering a mad theocracy.
Sanctions were working, why suddenly kowtow?

It’s a “buy time deal” for both sides

The deal is only for 6 months

In that time, the “west” is hoping that a stronger deal is negotiated
For Iran, it gives them temporary relief on some of the harsher sanctions hurting their people

333 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:32:03am

I’m on our companies short list to go to Brazil prior to the 2016 Olympics to set up the satellite/ fiber optic transmission infrastructure

I think I’ll up my life insurance prior!!!
(half / )

france24.com
French police train Brazil for Olympic crowd control

334 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:32:56am

re: #330 rosiee

Bolstering a mad theocracy.
Sanctions were working, why suddenly kowtow?

Did you read the agreement at all?

335 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:54:47am

re: #333 sattv4u2

I’m on our companies short list to go to Brazil prior to the 2016 Olympics to set up the satellite/ fiber optic transmission infrastructure

I think I’ll up my life insurance prior!!!
(half / )

france24.com
French police train Brazil for Olympic crowd control

See if you can hang with Greenwald and Miranda—they’re party animals.

336 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 5:01:04am

re: #335 Decatur Deb

See if you can hang with Greenwald and Miranda—they’re party animals.

I’d prefer to hang with the Brazilian (womens) volleyball team!!!

Image: 131.jpg

337 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 5:21:01am

I wonder if the city is supplying the munchies !?!?!

seattletimes.com

500-toker pot party gets OK’d outdoors at Seattle Center

For the first anniversary of legal weed, the city will permit a giant pot party on the site of Seattle Center’s old Fun Forest amusement park

338 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:03:44am

re: #303 ausador
The Teenager and I went out to Best Buy and Petco yesterday and there were at least 10 people in tents camped out in front of BB. My son could not wrap his head around that at all (which proves The Husband and I have done at least one thing right at parents, lol) . Me either. Also, it’s now 25 degrees here, I wonder how many of those brave pioneers are still out there this morning? This Best Buy is a really teeny store too, probably half the size of many I’ve seen. The fight for those couple of flat screen “doorbuster” ( I hate that term, because sometimes it’s literal) TVs will probably make the news.

( begins humming Joy to the World….)

339 Flounder  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:19:51am

Ever sign your mom’s name on a sick note after playing hooky from school? It doesn’t work well when you are all grown up. Women gets charged with two felonies for forging a doctor’s note.
blog.timesunion.com

340 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:21:57am

re: #338 A Mom Anon

I’ve wondered about the people who “camp out” for up to a week prior to “Black Friday”

So they take the week off from work? Me, I prefer to take my vacation days for well,,, vacations!!
If they are students, they miss class for at least two days? (Monday and Tuesday of this week)
If they are unemployed, where are they getting the money for these big ticket (albeit discounted) items. I’m sure they’re not camping out for 5-7 days just to get a handful of $4 DVD’s or CD’s!!

341 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:24:07am

re: #340 sattv4u2

I’ve wondered about the people who “camp out” for up to a week prior to “Black Friday”

So they take the week off from work? Me, I prefer to take my vacation days for well,,, vacations!!
If they are students, they miss class for at least two days? (Monday and Tuesday of this week)
If they are unemployed, where are they getting the money for these big ticket (albeit discounted) items. I’m sure they’re not camping out for 5-7 days just to get a handful of $4 DVD’s or CD’s!!

Think we’re seeing a new fad-“suburban camping”, a lot like tailgating. These guys are in it for the Brunswick stew and the BS.

342 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:27:16am

re: #341 Decatur Deb

Think we’re seeing a new fad-“suburban camping”, a lot like tailgating. These guys are in it for the Brunswick stew and the BS.

heh

My preference would be;

Camping out for a week in the cow fields around Auburn waiting for the Iron Bowl

343 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:28:45am

re: #338 A Mom Anon

The Teenager and I went out to Best Buy and Petco yesterday and there were at least 10 people in tents camped out in front of BB. My son could not wrap his head around that at all (which proves The Husband and I have done at least one thing right at parents, lol) . Me either. Also, it’s now 25 degrees here, I wonder how many of those brave pioneers are still out there this morning? This Best Buy is a really teeny store too, probably half the size of many I’ve seen. The fight for those couple of flat screen “doorbuster” ( I hate that term, because sometimes it’s literal) TVs will probably make the news.

( begins humming Joy to the World….)

Fighting over who gets to spend hundreds of dollars on a television strikes me as insane. Get punched in the wrong place, or trip and fall into something, and all the money you saved and a good deal more will be lost paying the resultant medical bills.

344 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:30:29am

re: #342 sattv4u2

heh

My preference would be;

Camping out for a week in the cow fields around Auburn waiting for the Iron Bowl

Was thinking of camping at the Corps of Engineers tent sites on Lake Eufaula. They thin out and get quiet this time of year, and the temps are certainly more comfortable than July.

345 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:31:43am

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Fighting over who gets to spend hundreds of dollars on a television strikes me as insane. Get punched in the wrong place, or trip and fall into something, and all the money you saved and a good deal more will be lost paying the resultant medical bills.

Especially when many times the same TV set can be had around January 15th for a similar price, maybe even lower.

346 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:34:43am

re: #345 ObserverArt

Especially when many times the same TV set can be had around January 15th for a similar price, maybe even lower.

Yes, but then its not The Latest Thing, which is very important for those conditioned to have poor impulse control.

347 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:35:47am

re: #345 ObserverArt

Especially when many times the same TV set can be had around January 15th for a similar price, maybe even lower.

Or on Amazon ,,, or any other number of online shopping sites!

Lessee,,,,, camp out in sub freezing weather for 5-7 days, no bathroom, terrible sleeping conditions no matter WHAT you bring with you, with only a CHANCE to scoff your “targeted” item only after clawing through others targeting the same item

OR

Sit in the comfort of your own home, at your leisure, browsing the interwebbies and ‘clicking” your purchase

348 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:36:11am

re: #345 ObserverArt

Especially when many times the same TV set can be had around January 15th for a similar price, maybe even lower.

But then it wouldn’t be a “Major Prize”.

349 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:36:27am

OR

Option #3

Living without said item!!

350 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:37:27am

re: #349 sattv4u2

>OR

Option #3

Living without said item!!

Don’t piss in your rice bowl.

351 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:43:06am

Image: SeXDeMW.jpg

352 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:47:24am

“Winning the fight for the doorbuster” also gives some people a ‘rush’, as they feel it proves their supremacy over their fellow shoppers.

353 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:49:24am

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

“Winning the fight for the doorbuster” also gives some people a ‘rush’, as they feel it proves their supremacy over their fellow shoppers.

Neo-pleistocene hunting band.

354 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:51:10am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Out here in Northern NJ, we got our first real taste of winter last night. A light dusting of snow on the grass, cars, and other similar surfaces. Just enough to let you know what’s right around the corner, but not so much that it’s a nuisance.

In many respects, that describes what we’re talking about with a “deal” with Iran. It opens the door on what’s around the corner, but we don’t know for sure what it will bring.

I posted this last night on Twitter, and it is as appropriate then as now.


The deal isn’t so much a deal as a step in a process. I question just how much pundits pontificating on this actually know about the workings of the deal and what it represents. That goes for Israel as well.

I get why Israel’s against any deal given their concerns over nuclear programs by those who seek to do Israel harm (whether it was Iraq, Syria, or Iran or Saudi Arabia or any other regime that may be contemplating a nuclear program).

But this is a 6-month window on whether we can trust Iran to do more. It’s tiny baby steps on process.

Iran, which has long resisted international monitoring efforts and built clandestine nuclear facilities, agreed to stop enriching uranium beyond 5 percent, a level that would be sufficient for energy production but that would require further enrichment for bomb-making. To make good on that pledge, Iran will dismantle links between networks of centrifuges.

Its stockpile of uranium enriched to 20 percent, a short hop from weapons-grade fuel, would be diluted or converted into oxide so that it could not be readily used for military purposes. Iran agreed that it would not install any new centrifuges, start up any that are not already operating or build new enrichment facilities.

The agreement, however, does not require Iran to stop enriching uranium to a low level of 3.5 percent, or to dismantle any of its existing centrifuges.

The accord was a disappointment for Israel, which had urged the United States to pursue a stronger agreement that would lead to a complete end to Iran’s enrichment program. But Iran made it clear that continuing enrichment was a prerequisite for any agreement.

The United States did not accept Iran’s claim that it had a “right to enrich” under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. But American officials signaled last week that they were open to a compromise in which the two sides would essentially agree to disagree on how the proliferation treaty should be interpreted, while Tehran continued to enrich.

In return for the initial agreement, the United States agreed to provide $6 billion to $7 billion in sanctions relief. Of this, roughly $4.2 billion would be oil revenue that has been frozen in foreign banks.

That money is a drop in the bucket of the more than $100 billion frozen by sanctions, but it’s a not insignificant amount for the Iranian regime that is struggling with a lagging economy. It’s money that they could divert for nefarious purposes (direct or indirect). That is yet another concern for Israel, who is worried about Syria and Hizbullah (Iran’s proxies).

If Iran shows itself willing to comply with the terms of the deal, we advance to another stage in negotiations. If not, the sanctions are reapplied.

Is this a perfect deal? No, but it doesn’t have to be perfect. It just needs to be workable/flexible to deal with shifting facts and circumstances.

As others have noted, Iran’s nuclear program is worrisome, but hardly alone in the threat matrix. If Iran does indeed obtain/develop nuclear weapons, it would open up the likelihood that the Saudis go nuclear, followed by Egypt and the Gulf States. Why? Because despite the nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the real animus in the region is one that stretches back 1,000+ years longer. The Sunni-Shi’a conflict always bubbles just under the surface and the current regional ambitions of the Iranians, Saudis, Egyptians, Gulf States (and until the wars, Syria and Iraq) mask those conflicts and rivalries. Nuclear parity isn’t just between the Arab/Perisan regimes and Israel, but within the Arab/Persians regimes.

Israel may not think that the deal is strong enough to keep Iran from going nuclear (and perhaps setting off a chain of proliferation elsewhere in the region), but the status quo isn’t much better. Iran is still considering proliferation and doing so in a clandestine manner. This deal perhaps opens the window on doing something about that, but the risks remain.

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:51:46am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home (with a probable detour to the driving range) beckons

356 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:52:46am

Though something that might be funny would be to whip up one of those fake ‘Obamacare ads’ we’ve seen here, with this one being two white “Black Friday Battlers” reminding people to get health insurance before slugging it out with other shoppers for those big deals.

357 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:54:10am

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

“Winning the fight for the doorbuster” also gives some people a ‘rush’, as they feel it proves their supremacy over their fellow shoppers.

I was going to mention it harkens back to the time of mastodon hunting in the dead of winter where the men went out and waited for days to bring down the huge beast for the benefit of their family and others in their community. And don’t forget, they had to walk uphill in both directions and the mastodon was the biggest ever weighing over 3 tons and they only had 0.5 ton test line on their reels…

…or something!

: )

358 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:56:09am

Image: KEgVYXD.jpg

No my butt.

359 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 6:56:56am

re: #357 ObserverArt

and they normally didn’t catch the mammoth and the women actually provided like 80% of the food for the community.

360 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:04:26am

re: #353 Decatur Deb

Neo-pleistocene hunting band.

Well, we’ve all still got those primitive feelings hidden inside us. Some of us, such as DD and Obdi, are able to keep them fully under control. Some others, such as myself, can’t always maintain that control but still can do enough to keep from doing something seriously stupid and illegal, while a third group with little such control make up most of those who charge into a Wal-Mart or Best Buy and get into a fight.

361 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:10:43am

Good Morning..Nobody is going anywhere this morning in Oklahoma. We are in a Ice Storm mode. From what I’ve been hearing, The US came up with a pretty good deal with Iran. It’s a step forward and Sanctions can work over time..

362 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:13:41am

Grandkid micro-crisis. Be back tonight.

363 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:16:53am

re: #361 HoosierHoops

Good Morning..Nobody is going anywhere this morning in Oklahoma. We are in a Ice Storm mode. From what I’ve been hearing, The US came up with a pretty good deal with Iran. It’s a step forward and Sanctions can work over time..

I was just looking at the national weather map on Weather.com and noticed a lot of light blue over Oklahoma and parts of Kansas and Texas. Strange start of the winter season.

Freaking cold here in Ohio…currently 20, up from 17…with a high of 29 today. At least the wind is down.

364 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:17:50am

re: #358 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Image: KEgVYXD.jpg

No my butt.

Just tweeted this a few minutes ago.


Didn’t catch a lot of the conversation, but as I walked by six guys drinking beer and standing around a propane tank hooked up to a large boiler with five gallons of water and a bunch of crabs in it(they were just having a crab feed in the parking lot after getting off the water), I heard one guy say to the others, “It kicks in January 1…haven’t decided which plan I want yet, but it looks pretty good.” and another say, “Yeah, we’re looking at it now too.”

365 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:22:32am

re: #360 Dark_Falcon
This crappy behavior totally craps on “The Meaning of Christmas”. As someone who worked retail for over 20 yrs, I can tell you that this sort of bullshit sucks the joy right out of the season. Case In Point:

I used to work for a certain retailer (starts with the big red K) in toys. I was almost due to give birth to my oldest child the year the Cabbage Patch Dolls hit the stores for the first time. Baby was born on Dec 31 if that helps you to imagine how expectant I was.

When these dolls came into the stockroom/warehouse all of us thought they were so ugly and we’d be stuck with them. Now, I was working 12 hour shifts with no days off then, and I didn’t see the news reports. I wish I had. I took a flatbed cart loaded with 3 dozen(all of the dolls we were going to get for the whole season) of them to the sales floor and was knocked down and stepped on by assholes. Most of whom were not buying them for kids, they were buying them to resell for up to 300 dollars a pop. And willing to step on me to get them without so much as an apology or a second glance while I was laying on the floor in tears. That was the year I began hating this time of year. Now, I loved doing Christmas for my kids when they were little, but you couldn’t come up with FREE things that would get me into a store between Christmas and Thanksgiving except for a Monday or Tuesday morning early before the morons show up. These days I could give a rat’s furry butt about Christmas. I don’t even bother with decorations anymore. I seemed to be the only one who cared about some sort of décor. So I focus on food, family and friends and try to muddle through. But it’s depressing for me, and I do a happy dance once New Year’s is over.

366 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:23:47am

re: #363 ObserverArt

I was just looking at the national weather map on Weather.com and noticed a lot of light blue over Oklahoma and parts of Kansas and Texas. Strange start of the winter season.

Freaking cold here in Ohio…currently 20, up from 17…with a high of 29 today. At least the wind is down.

To quote Vanilla Ice..Ice Ice Baby
You know what is dumb? The crawler on the screen is listing every church in Oklahoma that is closed..Why Not just say, ’ Everything is freaking closed..Don’t drive anywhere dumbass ’
Palin is on TV..Really? What did I do to deserve Sarah this morning?
/Hope today finds you well

367 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:24:33am

re: #364 darthstar

Just tweeted this a few minutes ago.

[Embedded content]


Didn’t catch a lot of the conversation, but as I walked by six guys drinking beer and standing around a propane tank hooked up to a large boiler with five gallons of water and a bunch of crabs in it(they were just having a crab feed in the parking lot after getting off the water), I heard one guy say to the others, “It kicks in January 1…haven’t decided which plan I want yet, but it looks pretty good.” and another say, “Yeah, we’re looking at it now too.”

And that is exactly how this will all turn. One person talking to another without Fox news and Ted Cruz chattering in the background.

368 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:26:15am

re: #364 darthstar

I’ve found the attack by the GOP on the website to be mindbogglingly dumb because the website can eventually get fixed.

The main problem for the GOP with the ACA is that the ACA does a lot of stuff that people want and will help them out.

369 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:26:42am

re: #366 HoosierHoops

To quote Vanilla Ice..Ice Ice Baby
You know what is dumb? The crawler on the screen is listing every church in Oklahoma that is closed..Why Not just say, ’ Everything is freaking closed..Don’t drive anywhere dumbass ’
Palin is on TV..Really? What did I do to deserve Sarah this morning?
/Hope today finds you well

It would be more efficient to list the one or two that are open, but then idjits would try to drive there.

I hate ice storms with a passion. With snow, I’m just fine. Ice is another matter.

Don’t have either where I live now, though. My condolences.

370 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:27:15am
371 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:27:28am

Image: c3IbSwC.jpg

372 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:29:36am
373 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:29:43am

re: #371 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Image: c3IbSwC.jpg

The olive drab VDub bus makes that image all the better! Good one.

374 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:30:35am

re: #369 wheat-dogghazi

Yep. I hate ice, especially since I drive a teeny little car. I got stuck driving back roads home one time after a particularly nasty storm (rare in GA, but we get them sometimes) and the bottom of my little Honda Fit scraped the hump of ice in the middle of the road from the ice buildup all the way home. Fun times.

375 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:32:10am

re: #372 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Is Sally Kohn the woman I’ve been seeing on MSNBC a few times lately? I tend to watch Alex Wagner at noon if I am around, I think she’s been on.

376 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:33:39am

re: #368 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’ve found the attack by the GOP on the website to be mindbogglingly dumb because the website can eventually get fixed.

The main problem for the GOP with the ACA is that the ACA does a lot of stuff that people want and will help them out.

Hey Brother..The ACA is not well thought out…From day one here I have pushed for single payer like the Dutch system. The best in the world, They only live to 89 there. It works.
I’m officially retired in a couple of weeks but my healthcare would cost 1800 bucks a month next year. That is highway robbery and pure bullshit.
The system is broken

377 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:33:40am

re: #365 A Mom Anon

This crappy behavior totally craps on “The Meaning of Christmas”. As someone who worked retail for over 20 yrs, I can tell you that this sort of bullshit sucks the joy right out of the season. Case In Point:

I used to work for a certain retailer (starts with the big red K) in toys. I was almost due to give birth to my oldest child the year the Cabbage Patch Dolls hit the stores for the first time. Baby was born on Dec 31 if that helps you to imagine how expectant I was.

When these dolls came into the stockroom/warehouse all of us thought they were so ugly and we’d be stuck with them. Now, I was working 12 hour shifts with no days off then, and I didn’t see the news reports. I wish I had. I took a flatbed cart loaded with 3 dozen(all of the dolls we were going to get for the whole season) of them to the sales floor and was knocked down and stepped on by assholes. Most of whom were not buying them for kids, they were buying them to resell for up to 300 dollars a pop. And willing to step on me to get them without so much as an apology or a second glance while I was laying on the floor in tears. That was the year I began hating this time of year. Now, I loved doing Christmas for my kids when they were little, but you couldn’t come up with FREE things that would get me into a store between Christmas and Thanksgiving except for a Monday or Tuesday morning early before the morons show up. These days I could give a rat’s furry butt about Christmas. I don’t even bother with decorations anymore. I seemed to be the only one who cared about some sort of décor. So I focus on food, family and friends and try to muddle through. But it’s depressing for me, and I do a happy dance once New Year’s is over.

I used to work retail at Woodfield Mall, 3 Christmas seasons. After all the Christmas music over 9-10 hour shifts I’ve come to hate Christmas music. Thankfully, I never had a bad experience like you had, as I’m too big to just knock over, and someone stepping on me would find themselves tripped and knocked down.

378 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:34:18am

squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

379 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:35:13am

re: #376 HoosierHoops

Hey Brother..The ACA is not well thought out…From day one here I have pushed for single payer like the Dutch system. The best in the world, They only live to 89 there. It works.

I’m entirely for single-payer.

I’m officially retired in a couple of weeks but my healthcare would cost 1800 bucks a month next year. That is highway robbery and pure bullshit.
The system is broken

Which state do you live in?

380 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:35:24am

re: #375 ObserverArt

Is Sally Kohn the woman I’ve been seeing on MSNBC a few times lately? I tend to watch Alex Wagner at noon if I am around, I think she’s been on.

She’s one of Fox’s token liberals.

381 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:38:22am

re: #368 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’ve found the attack by the GOP on the website to be mindbogglingly dumb because the website can eventually get fixed.

The main problem for the GOP with the ACA is that the ACA does a lot of stuff that people want and will help them out.

A generous analysis would be to call it short-sighted. But the Republicans play for now. Not five minutes from now. Granted, they’ve trained most of the media to think this is actually an important strategy, so it gets inflated beyond recognition, but it really is just a political version of MST3K. Sure, they feel like they’re saying something witty and damaging, but at the end of the news cycle, the sun rises again and sheds light on other things that are more important than assholes feigning outrage over a web site.

382 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:39:46am

re: #378 Backwoods_Sleuth

squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

[Embedded content]

Squeeeeeee! is right.

383 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:40:01am

re: #364 darthstar

Just tweeted this a few minutes ago.

[Embedded content]


Didn’t catch a lot of the conversation, but as I walked by six guys drinking beer and standing around a propane tank hooked up to a large boiler with five gallons of water and a bunch of crabs in it(they were just having a crab feed in the parking lot after getting off the water), I heard one guy say to the others, “It kicks in January 1…haven’t decided which plan I want yet, but it looks pretty good.” and another say, “Yeah, we’re looking at it now too.”

384 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:40:52am
385 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:44:36am

re: #378 Backwoods_Sleuth

squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

[Embedded content]

What a cutie little joey is!

386 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:46:34am

re: #379 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m entirely for single-payer.

Which state do you live in?

Winston and I are moving away from Norman, Oklahoma to our Lake House on Lake Tomahawk, Wisconsin. It was all paid for from that check my family left me when Pops passed away. This spring I want to open a Cafe at the lake and I bribed Paulie to come north to be my Chef. I offered Gus a chance to visit paradise..My place sleeps 8 so he is welcome to hang out.
I’m pretty jacked Obdi..Pretty jacked up..

387 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:48:43am

re: #383 Backwoods_Sleuth

Dear god, that article is priceless.

“What do I need here?” said Jeff Fletcher, who was being sued for those medical bills. “Proof of income?”

“Yep,” Lively said, and Fletcher pulled out documents showing that he and his wife live on about $500 a month in food stamps and her disability check.

“You smoke?” Lively asked, going through a few routine questions.

“Right- and left-handed,” he quipped as she typed.

“All right,” Lively said after a while. “You are covered.”

“I’m covered?” Fletcher said. He slapped the table. He clapped twice.

“Woo-hoo! I can go to the doctor now?” he asked Lively. “I’m serious. I need to go.”

388 Mattand  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:49:32am

re: #383 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

I’ll probably be Tweeting/Facebooking this article later, much to the chagrin of what little followers I have. Thanks so much for posting this.

Ironically, this article is as upsetting as it is a relief, in that it just highlights how much Republican-led state governments have done to sabotage the ACA. Even here in NJ, our “moderate” Soon-to-be-Savior of the US™ Gov. Christie refused to set up a state exchange.

The article also, for me at least, demonstrates that much of the conservative anger towards the ACA really is people pissed off that Teh Poors are getting affordable health care.

I’m also waiting for the all of the “liberal” WaPo editorialists like Jen Rubin to start shitting all over this article.

389 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:52:32am

re: #386 HoosierHoops

Yeah, that’s one of the states that rejected making their own exchange. However, the mainline provisions of the ACA are still in effect, so if you have to pay that much for coverage and the company shows excess profit, they’ll have to refund you money. In addition, I bet that with the website now working better, you can probably find a cheaper plan. have you registered and all?

390 Tim TeaBro  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:56:29am

Official Tea Party Frontier Jibberish video

Why is it that every time I see a ‘Watch XXX TOTALLY DESTROY XXX’ it usually ends up being the exact opposite?

391 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 7:57:23am

Vanny DeVito.

Image: o2ksMU7.jpg

392 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:00:08am

re: #390 Tim TeaBro

Because you live in the real world. Tea Partiers always think their side won. To admit otherwise would crumble their entire reason for being.

393 Tim TeaBro  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:02:47am
David Beach * Top Commenter
This man was obviously more schooled in The US Constitution than that dumb judge and he embarrassed her for her stupidity and that is why she had him arrested and jailed. Another case of the Gestapo ideology taking place across our Free America which is rapidly being taken away.

In response to David Beach:

Jeff Loiselle * Follow * Top Commenter
another reason to shoot cops and game wardens when they try to arrest without reasonable grounds.
Reply * 2 * Like * 6 hours ago

394 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:04:00am

re: #340 sattv4u2

I’ve wondered about the people who “camp out” for up to a week prior to “Black Friday”

So they take the week off from work? Me, I prefer to take my vacation days for well,,, vacations!!
If they are students, they miss class for at least two days? (Monday and Tuesday of this week)
If they are unemployed, where are they getting the money for these big ticket (albeit discounted) items. I’m sure they’re not camping out for 5-7 days just to get a handful of $4 DVD’s or CD’s!!

I think people advertise on Craigslist for “linesitters” to hold their place for Black Friday.

395 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:05:36am

re: #389 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yeah, that’s one of the states that rejected making their own exchange. However, the mainline provisions of the ACA are still in effect, so if you have to pay that much for coverage and the company shows excess profit, they’ll have to refund you money. In addition, I bet that with the website now working better, you can probably find a cheaper plan. have you registered and all?

Oh..I work for a California based Enterprise.. Doesn’t matter where I work.
My home office is in Silly Cone Valley.
I want to watch F1 racing but it’s Ice storm/Snow in the local news..I get it…Nobody is on the roads..Can we watch racing in Brazil now?

396 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:07:05am

The White House is now trolling the press corps…and doing it beautifully.
Link: mediaite.com

The White House press corps is fed up with stonewalling from the Obama administration, and they have finally taken a stand against the biggest transparency issue of them all: taking photos of the president.

Pic of the day:

397 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:07:06am

Weather and roads not looking good in PA today.


and this forecast doesn’t look too good.

398 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:11:11am
399 Tim TeaBro  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:13:25am

re: #398 darthstar

He’s doing a horrible job of DESTROYING AMERICA.

400 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:13:35am
401 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:15:05am

re: #399 Tim TeaBro

He’s doing a horrible job of DESTROYING AMERICA.

Shock and Awe, Obama style. The GOP is in shock, and the media is in awe…as in, “Aw, how are we going to find a turd in this story to exploit?”

402 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:17:07am

Bryan haz a sad he might not get his APOCALYPSE WHERE ALL TEH JUICE DIE!!!!!!

404 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:22:22am

Black Friday is nothing but a scam. All the shit that’s “on sale” is crap they can’t get rid of the rest of the year. A lot of that door buster crap is mass made shit specifically for BF. Remember those giant TV remote controls and 20 dollar dvd players? Yeah buy a dvd player for 5 dollars, it is shit. People are such fucking rubes.

405 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:24:59am

Warning: Word salad at link will make your head hurt.

406 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:26:06am

re: #403 Tim TeaBro

That guy must have an absolutely huge inferiority complex.

Huge, to be so damned defensive.

I don’t see the court system changing the word “plea” any time soon just for those yahoos.

407 Tim TeaBro  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:26:36am

Oh hell no.

Judge considers closing Sriracha hot sauce factory

408 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:27:24am

Coolest parents of the year nominee. Set up dinosaur antics at night while their kids slept.

quickmeme.com

409 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:28:07am

re: #405 darthstar

Shit goes in, shit comes out.

410 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:30:01am

re: #405 darthstar

Warning: Word salad at link will make your head hurt.

[Embedded content]

I don’t even have to go there to know what you mean.

She’s coated with so much Teflon, and has so little self-awareness, she doesn’t even know that she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know.

411 jaunte  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:31:08am

re: #405 darthstar

Warning: Word salad at link will make your head hurt.

[Embedded content]

Talk about a $5 dvd player.

412 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:31:17am
413 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:32:17am

re: #410 Justanotherhuman

I don’t even have to go there to know what you mean.

She’s coated with so much Teflon, and has so little self-awareness, she doesn’t even know that she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know.

My only disagreement with the story is the idea that Palin’s capable of feeling humiliated by her own actions.

414 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:33:55am

He must be watching the Sunday shows…

415 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:35:41am
416 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:36:38am

Baaah Baaah Consume

Black Friday ads for 2013 recycle items from 2012, price check shows

If you think the leaked 2013 Black Friday ads look vaguely similar to the Black Friday ads from 2012, it’s not a coincidence.

The Public Investigator compared Black Friday print ads for 2012 with leaked ads for 2013 and did a price check of ads from Best Buy, Target and Walmart. It showed dozens of sale items are exactly the same — recycled from last year.

While most are the same or lower price, a few are actually more expensive — a $100 iTunes gift card on sale at Target for $80 last year will sell for $85 this year, for instance — meaning bargain hunters may or may not find it worth their while to shop in stores on Black Friday.

Same shit from last year. They don’t even fucking try anymore. As consumers, this should piss us off. But…..Baaahh baahhh

417 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:36:47am
418 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:42:04am
419 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:43:30am

re: #416 Amory Blaine

Savvy shoppers study and research the stuff they’re buying and don’t fall for sales. Too much the pity that there’s so few savvy shoppers out there. I’ve already done our holiday shopping (Hannukah starts before Thanksgiving after all), so we bought weeks ago.

Comparison shopping sites are everywhere, and it’s supposed to make people more aware of this kind of crap that businesses are pulling, and yet businesses trot this out year after year.

Because they know that the number of savvy shoppers is insignificant as compared to those who aren’t. They profit from the fact that people will wait hours on lines in the cold for a chance at a tv that a handful will get their hands on but which leads to upselling elsewhere in the store.

BFADS.net (or any of the other Black Friday sales tracking sites) is your friend.

So is Consumers Reports and other objective research tools.

Don’t leave home without them (and with smartphones, it’d be criminal not to).

420 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:44:37am
421 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:47:02am
422 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:47:46am
423 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:47:55am

A decent article on the Iran deal
A Step, if Modest, Toward Slowing Iran’s Weapons Capability
Some people were wondering last night about how this deal effects Iran’s break out capability.

But the rollback he won for this first stage, according to American intelligence estimates, would slow Iran’s dash time by only a month to a few months.

424 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:48:06am

re: #403 Tim TeaBro

When the judge noted that he had pleaded not guilty, Terteltge o’ The Tricorne countered, “I never plead, animals plead, sounds like baaaa, oink oink.”

Patriot!

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if we shouldn’t just wall off Texas and rename it Coventry (en.wikipedia.org ) Let the sane out and then let the rest do as they wish ala Somalia.

425 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:48:20am
426 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:48:20am

re: #416 Amory Blaine

Not even included is the fact that Christmas is not even the best time of year to look for sale items anyway. Mid January(appliances, furniture and winter clothing/shoes-clothing often stays on sale til it’s nearly gone, the trick is finding out what the store’s mark down days are), Spring sales(usually post Easter), Post 4th of July(summer clothing, gardening stuff, anything outdoor related), and then it all starts over again. I’m sure I’ve missed some, but the point is, A LOT of Christmas stuff is marked up first, then marked down, same goes for jewelry at all times of the year.

In other words, this idiotic rush to find deals in Nov/Dec is contrived bullshit. A smart person shops all year round and finds deals for Christmas and is done by the time this crap starts every year. Saves money and you’re not spending a ton of money at one time.

427 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:49:39am

Boehner tries to piss on the deal.

Speaker Boehner Statement on Obama Administration Deal With Iran - See more at: speaker.gov

428 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:50:23am


Preamble

The goal for these negotiations is to reach a mutually-agreed long-term comprehensive solution that would ensure Iranˈs nuclear program will be exclusively peaceful. Iran reaffirms that under no circumstances will Iran ever seek or develop any nuclear weapons. This comprehensive solution would build on these initial measures and result in a final step for a period to be agreed upon and the

resolution of concerns. This comprehensive solution would enable Iran to fully enjoy its right to nuclear energy for peaceful purposes under the relevant articles of the NPT in conformity with its obligations therein. This comprehensive solution would involve a mutually defined enrichment program with practical limits and transparency measures to ensure the peaceful nature of the program. This comprehensive solution would constitute an integrated whole where nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed. This comprehensive solution would involve a reciprocal, step-by step process, and would produce the comprehensive lifting of all UN Security Council sanctions, as well as multilateral and national sanctions related to Iranˈs nuclear program.

There would be additional steps in between the initial measures and the final step, including, among other things, addressing the UN Security Council resolutions, with a view toward bringing to a satisfactory conclusion the UN Security Councilˈs consideration of this matter. The E3+3 and Iran will be responsible for conclusion and implementation of mutual near-term measures and the comprehensive solution in good faith. A Joint Commission of E3/EU+3 and Iran will be established to monitor the implementation of the near-term measures and address issues

that may arise, with the IAEA responsible for verification of nuclear-related measures. The Joint Commission will work with the IAEA to facilitate resolution of past and present issues of concern.

429 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:52:41am

re: #427 Justanotherhuman
Good God. Obama could find the cure for cancer and the GOP would be bitching that it’s depriving the pharmaceutical companies of profit from chemo and other drugs.

Go cry in a martini Boehner.

430 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 8:59:21am

Schumer, don’t make me call you Chuckles.

431 ObserverArt  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:02:29am

It’s cold in the east this weekend. Boehner must have put on the wool underwear and they tend to get scratchy and uncomfortable.

432 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:05:49am

re: #395 HoosierHoops

Oh..I work for a California based Enterprise.. Doesn’t matter where I work.
My home office is in Silly Cone Valley.
I want to watch F1 racing but it’s Ice storm/Snow in the local news..I get it…Nobody is on the roads..Can we watch racing in Brazil now?

There’s much cheaper plans than 1800 available in CA for individuals.

433 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:10:23am
434 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:14:13am

re: #432 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I thought CA had one of the better exchanges and prices in the country. Even better if you happen to qualify for the subsidies.

435 William of Orange  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:16:09am

That’ll be the second time a Democrat receives the Nobel peace prize.

436 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:17:20am

re: #435 William of Orange

That’ll be the second time a Democrat receives the Nobel peace prize.

May this one not be as premature.

437 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:25:53am

From NM:


I want some!

438 darthstar  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:30:50am

Image: 1454974_10152113537503854_633131395_n.jpg

439 blueraven  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:46:43am

re: #432 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There’s much cheaper plans than 1800 available in CA for individuals.

I cant even see 1800 per month in Wisconsin. That is insanely high.

440 Tim TeaBro  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:48:24am

How many people here have memorized the Gettysburg Address?

441 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:51:18am

Scott Walker has actively opposed the ACA along with his sycophants in the WIGOP. He turned down all kinds of federal money as well.

Report: Scott Walker decisions drove insurance rates much higher in Wisconsin than in Minnesota

Robert Kraig, the executive director of Citizen Action of Wisconsin, said a report he co-authored shows that “rates are much higher in Wisconsin than in Minnesota, despite having similar geographies and similar underlying medical costs.”

Kraig said Wisconsin insurance exchange premiums for a single person are an average of 79 percent to 99 percent higher than premiums in Minnesota, before tax credits are applied. He said the average Wisconsinite will pay $1,800 more annually for health care.

The cost differential has hit some areas harder than others: In La Crosse, the average cost is 136 percent higher than Minnesota’s average, in Eau Claire it’s 116 percent higher, and in Milwaukee it’s 112 percent higher.

442 The Mountain That Blogs  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 9:57:55am

re: #440 Tim TeaBro

sporcle.com

443 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:05:51am

re: #440 Tim TeaBro

I had to, in 1977, lol. For an American History class. After which I promptly forgot most of it. I could probably do it again if I was motivated to do so.

444 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:06:32am

It’s morning.

you?

445 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:09:33am

re: #441 Amory Blaine
I wish, when talking about these numbers, more people would include the subsidies. It might lessen the sticker shock for most people.

I also thought,(from Hoops’ post above) that if you were a resident of the state that’s where your insurance originated. If he’s retiring to WI, wouldn’t that be the state where his insurance comes from? It’s confusing, to say the least, but I’ve never had that experience so I have no idea how it all works. It’s hard enough to sort through the individual plan we had to get for The Teenager.

446 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:10:47am

I’ve most of my xmas shopping finished. I have haz to buy 3 more japanese puzzle boxes. Wish I could find some for less than $30 each. But I want decent ones.

Have to get a couple of things framed.

I figure I have $200 left to spend.

447 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:13:38am
For example, a corporate tax break known as “deferral” allows companies to delay paying taxes on profits from their overseas subsidiaries until those profits are brought into the United States. This gives corporations an incentive to shift jobs and profits offshore. Ending deferral would raise about $60.6 billion in a year. That’s more than the federal government spends annually on Head Start, Early Head Start, the Child Care and Development Fund, school breakfast and lunch, and funding for schools serving disadvantaged children.
448 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:14:10am

re: #442 The Mountain That Blogs

130/271

I’ll take myself out to the woodshed..

449 blueraven  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:17:20am

re: #441 Amory Blaine

Scott Walker has actively opposed the ACA along with his sycophants in the WIGOP. He turned down all kinds of federal money as well.

Report: Scott Walker decisions drove insurance rates much higher in Wisconsin than in Minnesota

No doubt the prices are higher.
But according to healthcare dot gov, even in LaCross a platinum plan for an individual would be about 700 per month.
Bronze would range from about 420-520
Still very high but not 1800 per month

450 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:18:16am

You can call yourself a Christian when …

451 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:26:09am

re: #449 blueraven

1800 a month was not my assertion. I merely pointed out that our states costs are deliberately higher.

452 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:28:04am

I guess people just don’t go to Wyoming.

453 blueraven  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:30:45am

re: #451 Amory Blaine

1800 a month was not my assertion. I merely pointed out that our states costs are deliberately higher.

understood.

It is the same here in TX and in most of the red states. Hoping once they see the higher prices in these states people will demand some changes.

454 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:31:32am

re: #452 FemNaziBitch

That line to Milwaukee, doesn’t exist anymore. Scott Walker turned down almost a billion dollars for that part of the line.

455 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:32:57am

re: #450 FemNaziBitch

You can call yourself a Christian when …

Amen.

456 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 10:38:09am

Do you use your brain parts equally?

457 jvic  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 11:43:27am

re: #447 FemNaziBitch

“For example, a corporate tax break known as “deferral” allows companies to delay paying taxes on profits from their overseas subsidiaries until those profits are brought into the United States. This gives corporations an incentive to shift jobs and profits offshore. Ending deferral would raise about $60.6 billion in a year. That’s more than the federal government spends annually on Head Start, Early Head Start, the Child Care and Development Fund, school breakfast and lunch, and funding for schools serving disadvantaged children.”

Meanwhile, the USA, alone among developed nations iirc, requires its citizens living abroad to pay US income tax in addition to the income tax of their host country.

Such discrepancies—-between businesses and individuals, between the US and other countries—-are flagrantly unfair to ordinary Americans.

If this kind of thing continues, at some point there will be a tectonic reaction. That it may leave everyone worse off will not matter to the voters if they get angry enough.

458 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 3:19:08pm

re: #452 FemNaziBitch

It’s a map of routes that would get HSR. It’s not that people don’t go to Wyoming. It’s that the proponents of that map aren’t envisioning HSR to Wyoming due to low ridership (which sort of makes sense given that so few people actually live in Wyoming.

459 plf1953  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 4:08:18pm

re: #457 jvic

This is my first post and I had hoped it would be more substantive on something that really matters … not replying to correct a falsehood in a post.

In any event, you’re absolutely wrong about how the US taxes its citizens living and earning income abroad.

For one thing, every US citizen can avail him/herself of a foreign earned income exclusion, which is $97.6K this year. What this means is that no matter the host country’s taxation requirements, the US will not tax the first $97.6K earned in a foreign country while there on an assignment. A US citizen can also exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts to reduce taxes on whatever ultimately is determined to be “US taxable income.”

Secondly, the US has tax treaties with most civilized countries which serve to prevent double taxation … meaning, generally, that a US citizen is not taxed both in the foreign country and in the US on foreign source income. Typically, the US citizen will take a tax credit against his/her US income tax liability to the extent of his/her foreign tax liability, thus avoiding double taxation.

Anyway, this is a complex subject and anyone earning income abroad should probably avail him/herself of professional guidance.

But the key point is that the US attempts to avoid having its income tax system take unfair advantage of US citizens earning income abroad.

Please learn the facts before you make bogus unequivocal statements such as you did here.

460 jvic  Sun, Nov 24, 2013 5:34:10pm

re: #459 plf1953

1. I heard people complaining about double taxation in the late 1980s. Most of the treaties you mention were passed after that period. My information was outdated.

The exclusion at that time was about $70K. All by itself, that was insufficient to incentivize the professionals I spoke with to work abroad.

2. I note that you chose words like “falsehood” and “bogus” instead of, e.g., “error” and “mistaken”.

3.

Please learn the facts before you make bogus unequivocal statements such as you did here.

Please reread my post and look up the meaning of the abbreviation “iirc” if you do not already know it.


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