No, Angola Has Not ‘Banned Islam’. It’s a Little More Complicated Than That.

Religion • Views: 34,416
Political map of Africa (2012) courtesy of UT Perry-Castañeda Library

Yes, Angola again. I know you might be tired of hearing about it by now, but I despise yellow journalism, so I tend to be like a dog with a bone when ridiculous fake stories make the rounds on the internet. This is especially true when they involve Muslims as victims or perpetrators—there are plenty of true stories about acts both good & evil, so there’s no need to make things up.

Although I posted a link in the comments of CriticalDragon’s (updated) Page yesterday about The Atlanta Journal-Constitution having largely debunked the story, today’s definitive debunking comes from an article I just discovered which appeared yesterday in South Africa’s Daily Maverick.

Being unfamiliar with the Daily Maverick I thought it best to at least do a cursory check on who they are. Based on their Wikipedia page—which lists several awards and no controversies—and on the tone & subjects of their articles, I feel confident that they’re a reliable news source. The situation in Angola truly is more complicated than most headlines would have you believe.

On Monday, the International Business Times, a New York-based digital publication, reported that several news outlets had reported that Angola had banned Islam and ordered the destruction of mosques in the southern African country. The paper noted that while reports of such a ban had picked up over the last few days, actual evidence of such a ban remained slim. The story was also picked up in the Indian press. And the Daily Mail. And others who seemed to wish the ban inspires a global trend.

Our initial attempts to fact check the story were at first stymied by the rate that the report had spread. Even human rights agencies working in Angola were confused, indicating at first that it may well be true - the political space in Angola has closed significantly in recent weeks and now, it appears, the religious space too.

Still, actual proof of the ban was hard to come by.

The International Business Times has traced the story back to the Beninese newspaper La Nouvelle Tribune. […]

“The Republic of Angola…it’s a country that does not interfere in religion. We have a lot of religions there. It is freedom of religion. We have Catholic, Protestants, Baptists, Muslims and evangelical people,” the statement said.

In addition to this, Mufti Ismail Menk, a Zimbabwean Muslim scholar, issued a statement saying he had consulted with Angolan scholars who said the story was “completely fabricated”.

As it turns out, the Angolan government had ordered the demolition of structures that had been erected without the requisite building permissions - among them a mosque.

It remains true, however, that Islam, as the Angolan Culture Minister is quoted as saying in the Beninese press, has not been legalised in the country. […]

More: No, Angola Has Not ‘Banned Islam’. It’s a Little More Complicated Than That.

Religion & Religious Freedom in Angola

Islam in Africa (1987) map courtesy of UT Perry-Castañeda Library
According to the article and the State Department report it cites (PDF), Angolan law requires that “a religious group must have over 100,000 members and be present in 12 of the 18 provinces to gain legal status.”

It strikes me as extremely odd to use demographics as the main legitimizing factor for a religion’s legal status, but maybe it’s just my American viewpoint that makes it seem that way—tyranny of the majority and all that. The report also says there are only 450-500 Jews living in Angola. Does that mean that with such small numbers Judaism has no legal status there despite having been around for thousands of years? I would assume so, but I couldn’t find anything in the report to confirm or disprove my assumption.

Anyway, if you read the entire source article as well as the linked report above, you’ll see that while the State Department says there were “no reports of abuses of religious freedom” in Angola, there are indeed problems and I assume Muslims are not the only ones experiencing such. For example (added emphasis mine):

Government Practices

There were no reports of abuses of religious freedom; however, the government imposed restrictions that affected members of minority religious groups. […]

Muslim group leaders reported Muslims could not practice Islam freely because the government did not recognize Islam and selectively intervened to close mosques, schools, and community centers. Although government officials asserted the government protected religious groups without legal status and did not have a policy to close mosques or other Islamic facilities, there were several reports of local authorities closing mosques or preventing their construction.

In January local police in Dundo, Lunda Norte Province, reportedly twice prevented a Muslim group from building a mosque, although the group had a license to build one. Police allegedly destroyed the mosque’s foundation at one location, directing the group to build elsewhere. When construction began at the new site, however, police again reportedly demolished the work and told the group that it could not build a mosque at all.

In May in Kuito, Bie Province, the National Criminal Investigation Police (DNIC) reportedly chained the doors on a large residential/commercial building used as a mosque by local Muslims. The DNIC representative allegedly said he had orders to close the building and told the Muslim community it could not continue to pray there. Muslim leaders from Kuito and Luanda wrote repeated letters to DNIC authorities, but received no response. At year’s end there was no resolution. […]

As I mentioned, it’s not just Muslims experiencing problems:

Government agencies, religious groups, and civil society organizations continued campaigns against indigenous religious practices involving shamans, animal sacrifices, or “witchcraft.” The stated goal of these campaigns was to discourage abusive practices that included willful neglect or physical abuse, particularly of women, children, and the elderly. According to the National Institute for Religious Affairs (INAR), cases of abusive practices diminished significantly due to the campaigns and government directives.

In October local authorities closed 19 unregistered churches in Namibe Province. The government claimed the unlicensed churches were operating out of people’s homes, often as a means to make money. […]

I have no problem with a government intervening to stop criminally abusive religious practices or to prevent people from committing fraud, but the whole demographics-based legal status—which seems to be the only thing that affords legal protections that might protect religious minorities from abuse—makes me very uneasy and will remind me to be extra thankful tomorrow (and every day) for having been born in the USA.

The only good thing about this fake story was that it caused the masks to slip off of many who claim to be freedom- and Constitution-loving patriots whose only opposition is to violent extremism, exposing them for the hateful anti-Muslim bigots they really are. Thanks again to CriticalDragon for collecting all the tweets, and to Charles for creating a media library where everything will be saved, despite any possible future efforts to delete them from their respective timelines.

For other debunked stories…

Also See

Jump to bottom

267 comments

1 theheat  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 1:06:37pm
Opposition parties and international human rights groups have long accused President Dos Santos of suppressing human rights and using violence to block dissent. And in this instance, it could be argued, that the legalities surrounding the practice of Islam in Angola, point to a culture of repression in the southern African country.

Yes, I’d say there’s more going on there than a blanket banning of Islam. The government there is making it tough on everyone because… their president is a jerk.

But that doesn’t stop the wingnuts from celebrating. I wonder if they celebrated this:

…a number of churches have also reportedly been demolished for being “unlicensed”.

Ooops.

2 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 1:16:19pm

re: #1 theheat

No I don’t think they’ll celebrate that. The American religious right can’t stand the idea of churches being destroyed, even if the people running them broke the law in some way.

3 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 1:18:54pm

CuriousLurker

By the way, I have to thank you for going through all the trouble of researching this as well.

4 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 1:26:00pm

re: #3 CriticalDragon1177

CuriousLurker

By the way, I have to thank you for going through all the trouble of researching this as well.

You’re welcome. It was no trouble really—it benefits me whenever I learn something. To be quite honest, the day before yesterday I couldn’t have pointed to Angola on a map of Africa if my life depended on it. Now I can and I know a lot more about it. ;)

5 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 1:53:32pm
For other debunked stories…

Also See:

CuriousDebunker!

6 theheat  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 2:15:42pm

A few years ago there was a documentary about so many of the older churches in Europe being demolished, and some converted to mosques. Well, it wasn’t because they were being ‘taken over’ by Muslims so much as attendance was down and they fell by the wayside. Having no mosque in the area, some of these churches were re-appropriated by Muslims. But if you had read some of the blogs, you’d swear these churches had been hijacked mid-sermon by angry hordes of Muslims.

Context. It matters.

7 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:12:06pm

Yep, the fact is that there are many religions - each has a varied and changing market share. Overall marketshare for any religion has been in the decline.

8 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:16:56pm

Bryan Fischer will be so disappointed.

9 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:18:41pm

re: #8 Kragar

Bryan Fischer will be so disappointed.

[Embedded content]

You know it’s bullshit when it comes from Fisher.

10 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:19:46pm

re: #9 FemNaziBitch

You know it’s bullshit when it comes from Fisher.

But you’re virtually guaranteed he won’t delete the tweets because they’re offensive!

11 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:20:31pm

Get back to me when a country banishes Bryan Fisher.

12 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:22:37pm
13 dog philosopher  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:26:14pm

re: #12 FemNaziBitch

True or False??

but that was only the debased earthly manifestation of the Incorruptible Perfectly Conservative Platonic Reagan

14 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:28:57pm
On September 23, 1654, the French ship Saint Catherine docked in the port of New Amsterdam, now New York City. It carried a group of 23 men, women, and children. Among this group of poverty-stricken, homeless individuals were the first Jewish women known to arrive in North America.

ALso Paged

15 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:34:14pm

Angolan Official Denies Islam Ban, But Muslims Say Mosque Closings Persist

ibtimes.com

“At the moment, we don’t have any information about that,†the second official said via telephone Monday. “We’re reading about it just like you on the Internet. We don’t have any notice that what you’re reading on the Internet is true.â€

The reports of mosques being dismantled have come under scrutiny, as a quick Google Images search shows that a photograph published by numerous news outlets this month that supposedly depicts the minaret of an Angolan mosque being dismantled in October 2012 had been published at least as far back as Jan. 23, 2008, when the Housing & Land Rights Network used it to illustrate an article about the demolition of Bedouin homes in Israel.

16 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:34:28pm

This is kewl.

Also from a series of blog posts I just Paged.

17 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:36:37pm
In his lecture on social conditions, Webb declared the following thoughts on religious prejudice that still ring true:

It is unfortunate, perhaps, that among the masses of believers religious prejudice is so strong as to prevent the exercise of a calm and just discrimination in the examination of an opposing creed … It would be neither just nor truthful to assert that every man who lives in an American city, town or village, is a Christian and represents in his acts and words the natural effects of Christian teachings. Nor is it fair to judge the Islamic system in a similar manner … If one or a dozen [people who call themselves Muslim but who are not truly knowledgeable about Islam] should commit an act of brutal intolerance or fanaticism, would it be just to say that it was due to the meritable tendencies of their religion?

I may have to put that in one of my photoshop frames.

18 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:39:17pm

There have been some horrific human rights abuses in Africa so I suppose the story is plausible but it could also be an attempt to spread rumors and cause an influx of mujahedeen to come fight for the cause. These things can get ugly very quickly. It doesn’t have to be true to work.

19 ausador  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:43:05pm

You mean this story isn’t about Murfreesboro, Tn.?

Gee, it sounds just like what has been going on there…

After surviving arson, vandalism, a bomb threat and legal action, a new mosque is scheduled to open today for Friday afternoon prayers.

20 dog philosopher  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:44:34pm

OT OT OT OT
CNN/ORCs Rule The Underworld Poll. Nov. 18-20, 2013

“As you may know, a bill that makes major changes to the country’s health care system became law in 2010. Based on what you have read or heard about that legislation, do you generally favor or generally oppose it?” If oppose: “Do you oppose that legislation because you think its approach toward health care is too liberal, or because you think it is not liberal enough?” Combined responses.

Favor: 40%
Oppose: Too liberal 41%
Oppose: Not liberal enough 14%
Oppose: Another reason 3%
Fish: 2%

when will the meme “most americans oppose obamacare” be replaced with the truth -

most americans either favor obamacare as is or want it to be replaced with an even more liberal health insurance law

ONLY 41% OF AMERICANS AGREE WITH THE WINGNUT POSITION ON OBAMACARE

21 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:44:37pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

I have to ask, did you actually read the very well-done page CL has put together here? At all? Neither of your comments make it sound like you did, just that you’re using this issue as a springboard to preach about …something.

23 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:45:11pm

Frank says:

It began with lyrics, but even looking at the PMRC fund raising letter in the last paragraph, at the bottom of the page, it starts looking like it’s branching into other areas when it says ‘We realize that this material’s pervaded other aspects of society’ and it’s like ‘What, you gonna fix it all for me?’

24 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:45:29pm
25 dog philosopher  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:46:12pm

re: #22 FemNaziBitch

Leading Republicans Bash Pope Francis, Claim He Doesn’t Know Anything About Christianity

Leading Citizens Of Vatican City Bash Ted Cruz Claim He Doesn’t Know Anything About Conservatism

26 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:46:29pm

bbl

27 Patricia Kayden  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:48:08pm

re: #22 FemNaziBitch

Leading Republicans Bash Pope Francis, Claim He Doesn’t Know Anything About Christianity

Wow. How does hating on Pope Francis help Republicans with the Catholic vote?

28 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:48:16pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Um, Killgore, IBT is the same source that broke the ‘story’. My own bet is that right now they are in a Rather/Logan state of denial.

29 dog philosopher  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:50:35pm

re: #27 Patricia Kayden

Wow. How does hating on Pope Francis help Republicans with the Catholic vote?

it helps them increase their share of the wingnut moron vote from 100% to 100%

30 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:51:20pm

re: #22 FemNaziBitch

Leading Republicans Bash Pope Francis, Claim He Doesn’t Know Anything About Christianity

Right after the ‘quotations’, the article reveals the quotes are fake:

Alright, I’m sure by now most of you probably figured out these comments aren’t real. Sorry. What is real is the fact that we have what may be the most progressive Pope to come along yet — and certainly in any of our lifetimes.

31 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:52:27pm

re: #22 FemNaziBitch

Leading Republicans Bash Pope Francis, Claim He Doesn’t Know Anything About Christianity

I’m confused why someone would start an article with fake quotes.

I mean, Rush has already obliged by saying something spectacularly stupid about Pope, as has Sister Palin…and doubtless other wingnut magnates will follow suit.

32 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:53:14pm

re: #27 Patricia Kayden

Wow. How does hating on Pope Francis help Republicans with the Catholic vote?

So one hand wingnuts are upset that we are “closing” the Vatican Embassy, but on the other hand, the Pope is a commie. Please make up your mind.

33 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:53:36pm

That Zappa quote I posted is a reminder to me that not all the social conservatives are in the Republican Party. The PMRC was Tipper Gore’s brainchild.

34 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:54:53pm

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

That’s why I linked to a more recent article by the same outlet. Previous articles were relying on dubious claims, unsourced quotes and obscure African news papers. It seems there was a dispute about building permits but the rest seems to be unfounded rumors and fake stories.

35 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:55:28pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

“Progressive Pope” is a relative term. Compared to Benedict he’s a raging librul, but anyone who thinks this Pope is suddenly going to be leading drum circles and making massive changes to Church doctrine like ordaining women or allowing for priests to marry is delusional.

36 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:55:41pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

That’s why I linked to a more recent article by the same outlet. Previous articles were relying on dubious claims, unsourced quotes and obscure African news papers. It seems there was a dispute about building permits but the rest seems to be unfounded rumors and fake stories.

Does Fox have bureau in Angola?

37 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:56:34pm

re: #35 Lidane

“Progressive Pope” is a relative term. Compared to Benedict he’s a raging librul, but anyone who thinks this Pope is suddenly going to be leading drum circles and making massive changes to Church doctrine like ordaining women or allowing for priests to marry is delusional.

38 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:57:31pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

That’s why I linked to a more recent article by the same outlet. Previous articles were relying on dubious claims, unsourced quotes and obscure African news papers. It seems there was a dispute about building permits but the rest seems to be unfounded rumors and fake stories.

Did you actually read the lovely page that CL pulled together on this before posting in the comments? Since, you know, you were trying to highlight the same thing the whole page is about.

39 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 5:57:37pm

re: #35 Lidane

“Progressive Pope” is a relative term. Compared to Benedict he’s a raging librul, but anyone who thinks this Pope is suddenly going to be leading drum circles and making massive changes to Church doctrine like ordaining women or allowing for priests to marry is delusional.

True. But radical change isn’t how the Catholic Church behaves. It prefers that changes be made slowly and after a great deal of study and justification.

40 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:02:20pm

re: #35 Lidane

“Progressive Pope” is a relative term. Compared to Benedict he’s a raging librul, but anyone who thinks this Pope is suddenly going to be leading drum circles and making massive changes to Church doctrine like ordaining women or allowing for priests to marry is delusional.

I think it’s important to point out that the recent past pontiffs have said similar things, but they’ve been less emphatic about it,,,and more emphatic about gays and women.

Rush and Reason.com are shitting Marxist conspiracies because the Pope used slightly less soft soap than they’re used to. Because that is exactly how intellectual cowardly they are; anything short of the laudatory equivalent of a lap dance for trickle-down economics means you’re a Castro.

41 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:11:36pm

I’m not staying, I just stopped by to drop of the tweet below. The gentleman tweeted it immediately after retweeting my link about this article. It made me twitch a bit at first, but then I realized he’s right—if Angolans are being killed by their own government, then they have bigger things to worry about.

Be warned that if you go to his full Twitter profile page there are graphic images there that you might find disturbing.

42 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:12:50pm

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

True. But radical change isn’t how the Catholic Church behaves. It prefers that changes be made slowly and after a great deal of study and justification.

I am reminded of the former Chicago Cardinal Bernadin having altar girls saying that there would be need for women priests soon enough. Francis won’t make that leap, but like the Cardinal, may he rest in peace, he’s laying ground work for the changes that have to happen for the church to continue. The experiment of enforced celibacy only dates from the 1200’s. It will change easier than women consecrating the host but both will change soon enough. Probably within my son’s lifetime.

43 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:15:51pm

Night Lizards. The better half just gave me my Christmas present early. Both seasons of Black Sheep Squadron.

I might see you tomorrow.

Youtube Video

May the Deity of YOUR CHOICE smile down upon you.

44 dog philosopher  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:19:42pm

Progressive Pope

i prefer the designation ‘traditional pope of the type who reads and values the words of jesus of nazareth”

45 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:21:29pm
46 ausador  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:21:39pm

re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis

It will change easier than women consecrating the host but both will change soon enough. Probably within my son’s lifetime.

Well…OK, as long as they don’t do it during their “moonblood” times and go into isolation away from the sanctuary until they are once again cleansed. No woman suffering from the curse of Eve should ever be allowed to participate in communion or be allowed anywhere near the Sacristy or Altar.

///

47 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:25:23pm

re: #46 ausador

Well…OK, as long as they don’t do it during their “moonblood” times and go into isolation away from the sanctuary until they are once again cleansed. No woman suffering from the curse of Eve should ever be allowed to participate in communion or be allowed anywhere near the Sacristy or Alter.

///

Meh. I see the sarc tags but I’ve run into some of that. It’s why I stay with Canterbury rather than across the Tiber.

48 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:26:08pm

re: #41 CuriousLurker

Serious question…what IS going on in Angola?

My search skills aren’t hacking it. I keep getting stuff on the Civil War, but not about what the current unrest is.

49 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:29:23pm

re: #43 Bubblehead II

Night Lizards. The better half just gave me my Christmas present early. Both seasons of Black Sheep Squadron.

I might see you tomorrow.

[Embedded content]

May the Deity of >YOUR CHOICE smile down upon you.

The Vought F4U Corsair was a game changer in the air battles over the Solomon Islands in 1943. Unlike the F4F Wildcat it could outrun the A6M3 Zero with ease, was even more well protected against damage, and carried 8 .50 cal machine guns to the Wildcat’s six. It proved devastating in action and showed just how past its prime the Zero was.

50 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:33:39pm

re: #48 The Ghost of a Flea

It’s disturbingly murky right now. Angola’s largely off the grid.

51 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:33:53pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

52 Tim TeaBro  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:36:25pm

re: #51 Kragar

That’s Porn Strikes.

pRonfare

…and there goes the thread

53 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:37:40pm

Under Fischer’s argument any state could also do away with freedom of speech, of the press and to assemble. He’s arguing that First Amendment Rights apply only to Federal laws, but he’s only looking as far as religion. And of course, he’s ignoring the 14th Amendment.

I guess the question is, if he believes Islam may be banned by a state, does he also believe that a state may ban newspapers, TV and radio as it sees fit, or arrest and imprison citizens for whatever speech they see fit to prohibit, or prevent citizens from assembling?

Does he REALLY believe this is what the Founders had in mind?

54 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:38:26pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

The Vought F4U Corsair was a game changer in the air battles over the Solomon Islands in 1943. Unlike the F4F Wildcat it could outrun the A6M3 Zero with ease, was even more well protected against damage, and carried 8 .50 cal machine guns to the Wildcat’s six. It proved devastating in action and showed just how past its prime the Zero was.

And they’re really cool looking planes, too!

55 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:39:02pm

re: #48 The Ghost of a Flea

Serious question…what IS going on in Angola?

My search skills aren’t hacking it. I keep getting stuff on the Civil War, but not about what the current unrest is.

I don’t know, but I’m going to try to find out over the long weekend. I’m more than a little embarrassed that I didn’t even know there was a problem there.

56 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:39:03pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

But its government spying, man!

57 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:40:55pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

But its government spying, man!

This new Dudebro font, plus the plaintive ‘man’ really works!

58 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:41:41pm

re: #53 GeneJockey

Under Fischer’s argument any state could also do away with freedom of speech, of the press and to assemble. He’s arguing that First Amendment Rights apply only to Federal laws, but he’s only looking as far as religion. And of course, he’s ignoring the 14th Amendment.

I guess the question is, if he believes Islam may be banned by a state, does he also believe that a state may ban newspapers, TV and radio as it sees fit, or arrest and imprison citizens for whatever speech they see fit to prohibit, or prevent citizens from assembling?

Does he REALLY believe this is what the Founders had in mind?

Yes, I’m sorry to say. Bryan Fischer’s ideal society would be a Theocracy, so he thinks that if the Founders were good men then the Constitution provided for the establishment of said Theocracy.

/Not kidding.

59 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:42:51pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I’m sorry to say. Bryan Fischer’s ideal society would be a Theocracy, so he thinks that if the Founders were good men then the Constitution provided for the establishment of said Theocracy.

/Not kidding.

Fucking Dominionists.

60 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:44:14pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

It’s disturbingly murky right now. Angola’s largely off the grid.

No doubt GG & company will assure everyone that whatever the U.S. government is up to is much, much more sinister. //

Okay, I’m starting to feel cranky so I’m really leaving this time..

61 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:44:37pm
62 Tim TeaBro  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:50:09pm

The problem is the enormous potential for abuse

So let’s think through the NSA spying on the typical American liberal’s pRon habits…

Then let’s think through the NSA spying on the typical homo-psycho conservative pRon habits…

Hoo boy! LOL

63 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:50:39pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

64 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:52:47pm
65 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:56:09pm

Awesome post CL.

66 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:56:37pm

Pro gun control Colorado [state] senator facing recall resigns

Colorado senator Evie Hudak (D Arvada and Westminster) announced her resignation from the state senate today. Grassroots organizers targeted the senator following the successful recall campaigns against two other Colorado legislators, Angela Giron and John Morse.

Recall Hudak Too, the organization looking to oust the senator, needed to collect about 18,900 signatures to trigger another round of recall elections. Recall organizers are confident that they collected the signatures necessary and plan to turn them over to the secretary of state for confirmation even as Hudak leaves office.

“This is a cowardly way out of the recall,” said Joe Neville, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners director, to the Denver Post, which helped organize the recall effort. “We’re still charging toward Tuesday and no matter what we’ll submit the petition signatures.”

At first confident that she would not be recalled, Hudak submitted her letter of resignation today. While there were several factors in the push for her recall, Hudak’s endorsement of house bills 1224 and 1229 were leaders. The bills she signed place capacity limits on magazines and make background checks for all gun transfers mandatory.

Having only won the previous election by less than 400 votes, in an election with over 70,000 ballots, it seemed unlikely that she would win in a recall election. Democrats control the Colorado senate by one seat, and by stepping down Hudak will ensure that her party will appoint her replacement.

67 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:58:54pm

re: #46 ausador

Well…OK, as long as they don’t do it during their “moonblood” times and go into isolation away from the sanctuary until they are once again cleansed. No woman suffering from the curse of Eve should ever be allowed to participate in communion or be allowed anywhere near the Sacristy or Altar.

///

We are magickal at those times. We bleed without injury. We can produce LIFE (although not while bleeding…) Bow before us.
/

68 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 6:59:22pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Pro gun control Colorado [state] senator facing recall resigns

Pushing people with dissenting opinions out of office or forcing a recall on them? Oh yeah. That makes gun nuts look totally reasonable.

69 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:03:17pm

re: #68 Lidane

Pushing people with dissenting opinions out of office or forcing a recall on them? Oh yeah. That makes gun nuts look totally reasonable.

It’s entirely reasonable: “We don’t like the bill you helped pass, so we’re going to vote you out of office.” That’s well within the bounds of decency.

70 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:05:12pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

It’s entirely reasonable: “We don’t like the bill you helped pass, so we’re going to vote you out of office.” That’s well within the bounds of decency.

I wasn’t aware a gun control bill was passed.

71 Lord of the Pies  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:05:36pm

OH HAI LIZARDS HAPPY THANKSGIVUKKAH!!!

I am here in the beautiful historic Brown Hotel in Louisville, which is a totes classy joint.

We had a nice clear, dry drive, no weather problems at all except for a snow flurry near Dayton which lasted for about 10 minutes.

When we got to Louisville we were all ready to light Hanukkah candles, except that I forgot to pack the little travel Hanukkiah that we bought in Israel last year, even though I remembered to pack the candles. I just thought I put it together with the box of candles, but oh well.

So we lit candles on a piece of foil.

72 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:06:01pm

Lest you think Texas has a monopoly on crazy:

Mississippi to begin issuing voter ID cards

Mississippi will begin issuing free voter identification cards to state residents without another form of photo identification beginning in early 2014, Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann told the Associated Press in an interview published Monday.

Mississippi began implementing its voter identification law in June along with a few other states after the Supreme Court struck down section four of the Voting Rights Act, which forced Southern states to seek federal approval for any changes to their voting laws.

The Mississippi law requires all voters to have photo ID at the polls, a controversial rule that some argue is meant to suppress minority votes.

Voters in Mississippi will need to show identification at the polls starting in June for the 2014 primary elections.

73 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:08:12pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

It’s entirely reasonable: “We don’t like the bill you helped pass, so we’re going to vote you out of office.” That’s well within the bounds of decency.

Because waiting until the next election was so goddamn difficult.

74 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:08:44pm

re: #70 Eclectic Cyborg

I wasn’t aware a gun control bill was passed.

One was passed earlier this year. Two other Democratic state senators in Colorado have already been successfully recalled for voting for it.

75 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:09:49pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

One was passed earlier this year. Two other Democratic state senators in Colorado have already been successfully recalled for voting for it.

So expressing an opinion is a reason to recall someone.

Yeah. That’s TOTALLY reasonable.

////////////////////////////////

76 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:10:32pm

re: #73 Lidane

Because waiting until the next election was so goddamn difficult.

Wisconsin Democrats pushed for a recall of Scott Walker because they didn’t like the labor law he passed. Turnabout is fair play.

77 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:11:18pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Wisconsin Democrats pushed for a recall of Scott Walker because they didn’t like the labor law he passed. Turnabout is fair play.

Seriously? That’s the angle you’re going to push? Come on.

78 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:12:06pm

re: #75 Lidane

So expressing an opinion is a reason to recall someone.

Yeah. That’s TOTALLY reasonable.

////////////////////////////////

Voting for legislation is a good bit beyond “expressing an opinion”. The recall was for an official act in her role as a legislator, not for something she said.

79 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:15:50pm
80 Amory Blaine  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:16:34pm

My bird hates fascism.

81 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:23:28pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Voting for legislation is a good bit beyond “expressing an opinion”. The recall was for an official act in her role as a legislator, not for something she said.

I oppose recalls for any reason short of malfeasance. You elect somebody for a fixed term, and you live with it till the next election. Gray Davis, Scott Walker, these folks in CO - it’s all really stupid.

But if Walker had been tossed out, I would not shed a tear. He’s an odious thug.

82 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:24:14pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Voting for legislation is a good bit beyond “expressing an opinion”. The recall was for an official act in her role as a legislator, not for something she said.

So a vote isn’t an expression of a legislator’s opinion on an issue. Got it.

83 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:27:33pm

re: #82 Lidane

That is not what I said. Please do not put words in my mouth.

84 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:30:26pm

Okay, so that’s the cranberries. Now to dry the bread.

85 Lord of the Pies  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:34:59pm

WTFITS

86 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:39:16pm

re: #85 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

We should only celebrate perfection? In other words, no parties, ever.

87 Amory Blaine  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:42:02pm

Alouette has me in stitches. Her purple wingnut retorts crack me up.

88 Lord of the Pies  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:42:36pm

re: #86 calochortus

We should only celebrate perfection? In other words, no parties, ever.

They tried to kill us, they didn’t succeed, let’s eat!

HURR HURR TEH JUICE CELEBRATES GENOCIDE!!!!1111!!

I mean like what were we supposed to do, let them kill us?

89 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:42:50pm

What’s this green font I’m seeing?
Dudebro?

90 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:43:13pm

re: #85 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

WTFITS

[Embedded content]

It’s an article so ass-backwards as to be only answerable via facepalm. To compare Israel, which has time and again sought peace and been spurned, with the Seleucid Empire is so wrong that I scarcely know where to begin listing its flaws.

That piece is ‘dudebro logic’ at its worse.

91 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:43:46pm

re: #89 Varek Raith

What’s this green font I’m seeing?
Dudebro?

Yes, that’s the new dudebro font.

92 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:45:26pm

re: #88 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

They tried to kill us, they didn’t succeed, let’s eat!

HURR HURR TEH JUICE CELEBRATES GENOCIDE!!!!1111!!

I mean like what were we supposed to do, let them kill us?

No, just never have a good time. Sackcloth and ashes 24/7.
Fun is for Christians.

93 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:48:18pm

re: #92 calochortus

No, just never have a good time. Sackcloth and ashes 24/7.
Fun is for Christians.

Fun is unconstitutional.

94 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:50:06pm

re: #93 Varek Raith

Unless you’re rich.

95 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 7:52:57pm

If you look at the Mondoweiss Twitter page, you’ll see that 2 hours ago the account also retweeted a pro-Max Blumenthal DERP by Glen Greenwald.

Very clearly its a dudebro site.

96 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:06:34pm

re: #68 Lidane

Pushing people with dissenting opinions out of office or forcing a recall on them? Oh yeah. That makes gun nuts look totally reasonable.

Keep in mind, the bills she supported that were so horrible are described as:

The bills she signed place capacity limits on magazines and make background checks for all gun transfers mandatory.

I wish I was surprised by gun nut-itis but I’m not at this point. Nor am I surprised to see Dark cheering them on. Depressed that the idea of any transfer of gun ownership should go through a background check is apparently a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE EXPRESSION OF TYRANNY but whatever, apparently that’s cool to the Republican party today.

97 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:07:44pm

re: #35 Lidane

“Progressive Pope” is a relative term. Compared to Benedict he’s a raging librul, but anyone who thinks this Pope is suddenly going to be leading drum circles and making massive changes to Church doctrine like ordaining women or allowing for priests to marry is delusional.

Pffftt. The Vatican had it’s first drum circle before 1965.

Missa Luba:

Youtube Video

98 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:09:10pm

re: #96 dr. klys

Actually, its the magazine ban that I despise.

99 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:11:18pm

And I’m going to have to sign off. My narcolepsy is bad tonight.

100 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:13:36pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Actually, its the magazine ban that I despise.

And so it’s totes-great to remove someone from office over that! Fuck, we should just go to campaigning all the time, whether it’s for a recall or the normal one. We’re almost there already.

////

Look, unless you are your own legislator, expect them to make a choice or two you disagree with.

101 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:14:11pm

I think for the 2nd Amendment we need to look at the Founder’s intent.

That would mean everyone in a community have a single type of rifle and hand gun so ammunition and parts could be swapped in case of an emergency and they could function as a militia unit.

All this anything goes crap is bullshit. It says well regulated right in the text of the Amendment.

102 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:15:17pm

re: #101 Kragar

I think for the 2nd Amendment we need to look at the Founder’s intent.

That would mean everyone in a community have a single type of rifle and hand gun so ammunition and parts could be swapped in case of an emergency and they could function as a militia unit.

All this anything goes crap is bullshit. It says well regulated right in the text of the Amendment.

RESTRICTING MY MAGAZINE SIZE IS TOTALLY TYRRANY AS IS BACKGROUND CHECKSU*$*)(!@& VY*O#CRHUK

Sorry, spasmed there.

103 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:16:52pm

re: #101 Kragar

Apparently the Supreme Court begs to differ.

104 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:17:30pm

re: #103 calochortus

Apparently the Supreme Court begs to differ.

They also think Corporations are people.

105 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:18:25pm

re: #104 Kragar

They also think Corporations are people.

…and probably, people who need religious freedom.

106 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:19:14pm

re: #104 Kragar

They also think Corporations are people.

So, if there is malfeasance we just put the corporation in prison? Convenient.

107 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:19:43pm

re: #106 calochortus

So, if there is malfeasance we just put the corporation in prison? Convenient.

I needed that laugh.

…that bitter, bitter laugh.

108 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:19:56pm

re: #106 calochortus

So, if there is malfeasance we just put the corporation in prison? Convenient.

Well, they do have corporate prisons, so it all works out.
/

109 Tim TeaBro  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:30:16pm

re: #104 Kragar

They also think Corporations are people.

Actually, Thievery Corporation is a trip hop group.

110 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:37:03pm

re: #100 dr. klys

And so it’s totes-great to remove someone from office over that! Fuck, we should just go to campaigning all the time, whether it’s for a recall or the normal one. We’re almost there already.

////

Look, unless you are your own legislator, expect them to make a choice or two you disagree with.

Basically I’m with you, the recall sucks. However there’s a larger point about pragmatism that is being lost. Rightly or wrongly gun control is the hill that we as liberals keep dying on. It’s our birth control / abortion overreach, the issue where we always know we’re right that that knowledge of our own righteousness trumps, again and again, honest assessments of the terrain we’re fighting that battle on.

111 calochortus  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:38:52pm

Good night all, and a happy Turkey Day tomorrow.

112 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:40:33pm

re: #110 goddamnedfrank

Basically I’m with you, the recall sucks. However there’s a larger point about pragmatism that is being lost. Rightly or wrongly gun control is the hill that we as liberals keep dying on. It’s our birth control / abortion overreach, the issue where we always know we’re right that that knowledge of our own righteousness trumps, again and again, honest assessments of the terrain we’re fighting that battle on.

The irony of that sentence just strikes me.

113 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:43:02pm

I must be bored tonight. Watched two episodes of this Extreme Couponing show on TLC.

What the actual fuck? How is this a thing? I get wanting to save money on groceries, but this feels like a Hoarders In Training show. Who the fuck needs to buy 62 bottles of mustard because you have that many coupons? And why would you keep 100 boxes of cereal or 95 packages of hot dogs in your house? Wouldn’t all of the extra storage space that you need to pay for sort of negate any savings you get at the checkout line? WTF.

114 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:46:54pm

re: #113 Lidane

I must be bored tonight. Watched two episodes of this Extreme Couponing show on TLC.

So, I have to ask…

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
/

115 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:49:24pm

Here, watch some Dark Place:

Youtube Video

116 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:51:41pm

re: #114 Kragar

So, I have to ask…

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
/

Wine, boredom, and crappy weather. Heh.

117 Kragar  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:55:21pm
118 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:55:27pm

re: #110 goddamnedfrank

Basically I’m with you, the recall sucks. However there’s a larger point about pragmatism that is being lost. Rightly or wrongly gun control is the hill that we as liberals keep dying on. It’s our birth control / abortion overreach, the issue where we always know we’re right that that knowledge of our own righteousness trumps, again and again, honest assessments of the terrain we’re fighting that battle on.

Gun control is what Democrats try to do when they get tired of winning elections.

119 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 8:56:51pm

re: #118 William Barnett-Lewis

Gun control is what Democrats try to do when they get tired of winning elections.

What makes me sad is that universal background checks on transfers is now considered gun control from the point of view of that statement.

120 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:00:58pm

re: #119 dr. klys

What makes me sad is that universal background checks on transfers is now considered gun control from the point of view of that statement.

At this point, everything that doesn’t amount to Howitzers and tanks for everybody! is considered gun control. I’ve got zero confidence that we’ll ever have anything resembling sanity when it comes to guns in my lifetime.

121 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:02:45pm

re: #112 dr. klys

The irony of that sentence just strikes me.

You do realize there are other issues that are consistently undermined by the constant push for more gun control, right? Marriage and workplace equality, reproductive freedom, immigration reform … all issues with real, fundamental civil rights implications.

“You want it to be one way. But it’s the other way.”
-Marlo Stanfield

re: #119 dr. klys

What makes me sad is that universal background checks on transfers is now considered gun control from the point of view of that statement.

No, not really. You can make a pretty plausible argument that mission creep is what killed background checks. By themselves they were probably doable, but instead we had Feinstein, Boomberg and a bunch of state legislatures stirring up the already irrational fears of gun nuts. And gun nuts vote.

The unfortunate truth is that when it comes to message and strategic discipline liberal Democrats are often just as dysfunctional as the national GOP. This is where we tend to score our own goals, again because we just know we’re right and allow that to trump every other rational consideration.

122 klys  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:07:28pm

re: #121 goddamnedfrank

You do realize there are other issues that are consistently undermined by the constant push for more gun control, right? Marriage and workplace equality, reproductive freedom, immigration reform … all issues with real, fundamental civil rights implications.

“You want it to be one way. But it’s the other way.”
-Marlo Stanfield

You know, I wasn’t disagreeing with you there. Just commenting on the irony of the sentence.

No, not really. You can make a pretty plausible argument that mission creep is what killed background checks. By themselves they were probably doable, but instead we had Feinstein, Boomberg and a bunch of state legislatures stirring up the already irrational fears of gun nuts. And gun nuts vote.

The unfortunate truth is that when it comes to message and strategic discipline liberal Democrats are often just as dysfunctional as the national GOP. This is where we tend to score our own goals, again because we just know we’re right and allow that to trump every other rational consideration.

When the NRA comes out against closing the background check loophole, I don’t think the only issue is mission creep on the part of the Democrats. Not saying it doesn’t contribute, just that it’s not the only factor in play.

Anyhoo, have a good night, Lizards.

123 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:11:57pm

re: #119 dr. klys

What makes me sad is that universal background checks on transfers is now considered gun control from the point of view of that statement.

By some. The real problem is when they tie other things - meaningless magazine or cosmetic feature restrictions that do nothing - onto the bills. Push for _just_ background checks and that has a far greater chance at passing without losing mass number of seats that, for example, the Clinton Assault Weapon ban cost the Democrats.

124 Lidane  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:31:08pm

re: #123 William Barnett-Lewis

By some. The real problem is when they tie other things - meaningless magazine or cosmetic feature restrictions that do nothing - onto the bills. Push for _just_ background checks and that has a far greater chance at passing without losing mass number of seats that, for example, the Clinton Assault Weapon ban cost the Democrats.

That’s just it, though. Even if you had a bill that just focused on background checks with nothing else attached to it, the NRA and the gun nuts would still squeal like stuck pigs over it. They’d attach so many conditions and loopholes to that law that you might as well not bother at all.

It’s like my contention that anyone who wants a gun license should spend documented time in a class THEN show documented time at a gun range, because there’s no reason to own a gun if you don’t know the how to properly load, clean, shoot, store, and maintain the damn thing in the first place. A bill like that would have so many exceptions added to it that it would be pointless.

125 sagehen  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:39:46pm

re: #113 Lidane

I must be bored tonight. Watched two episodes of this Extreme Couponing show on TLC.

Here’s something better.

I just watched the most fascinating documentary on PBS online, “We Still Live Here” — the Wampanoag tribe (the ones who hosted that thanksgiving dinner with the Pilgrims)… hadn’t had a native speaker in more than 100 years.

Until a woman from the tribe gathered up a bunch of 17th century documents written in the language (land deeds, court transcripts, a Bible) went to MIT to get a doctorate in linguistics, and revived it. There’s now dozens of adults who speak it reasonably well, the tribe’s kids are even better at it, the tribe holds gatherings where that’s all they speak, and her 4-year-old daughter is the first native Wampanoag speaker in 7 generations.

video.pbs.org

(or, y’know, Highlander is on BBC America right now. Either way.)

Apparently it’s Indian Month on PBS — last week I watched Indian Relay horseracing (each rider has four horses, has to change mounts after each lap), next up is the Lakota woman who wants to build an abortion clinic on their reservation in South Dakota.

126 ausador  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 9:58:33pm

re: #113 Lidane

I must be bored tonight. Watched two episodes of this Extreme Couponing show on TLC.

There are dozens and dozens of full episodes of “Seconds from Disaster,” “Mayday,” and “Air Crash Investigations” available on YouTube, they are kind of addictive too.

Just don’t read the comments, more and more Dudebro inspired poisoning showing up. Stuff along the lines of “American made planes, with American made computers, navigated by American controlled GPS. This means they can crash any plane and kill anyone any time they want, blah, blah, blah…” (kinda sad really)

127 Amory Blaine  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:34:20pm

Life is good.

128 Single-handed sailor  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:38:15pm

re: #124 Lidane

This. After Sandy Hook the gun lobby said OK to psych evaluations cause these people are crazy. The first mention of psych evaluations as a law brought cries from the gun lobby that this infringes on the 2nd amendment.

129 austin_blue  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:41:17pm

Greens? Done. Chicken livers with By God schmaltz? Done. Cranberry sauce w/ ginger, mandarins and a touch of jalapeño? Done.

Reading this thread on LGF, originally posted by a woman, and subsequent posts showing the fierce women who post here? Priceless.

Y’all have given me a reason for Thanksgiving today. I love this board.

130 sagehen  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:42:00pm

And what good are psych evaluations (or a list of people who didn’t pass) if there’s no background checks?

Any criteria you want to use to deny weapons to somebody… mean nothing if there’s not somebody checking a list somewhere to make sure the customer isn’t on it.

131 austin_blue  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:50:25pm

re: #113 Lidane

I must be bored tonight. Watched two episodes of this Extreme Couponing show on TLC.

What the actual fuck? How is this a thing? I get wanting to save money on groceries, but this feels like a Hoarders In Training show. Who the fuck needs to buy 62 bottles of mustard because you have that many coupons? And why would you keep 100 boxes of cereal or 95 packages of hot dogs in your house? Wouldn’t all of the extra storage space that you need to pay for sort of negate any savings you get at the checkout line? WTF.

Go to Vulcan. Get a couple of BBC shows. First off, “Line of Duty”. Only five episodes in the series, two discs, as the BBC is wont to do. Really, really good.

Second, get “The Fall”, another BBC set. Also five episodes on two discs. Well, after we turn them back in. Watched the first two episodes tonight, after cooking. It stars Gillian Anderson! Scully! She just gets better with age. These BBC procedurals are just killer bee.

132 austin_blue  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 10:59:10pm

re: #126 ausador

There are dozens and dozens of full episodes of “Seconds from Disaster,” “Mayday,” and “Air Crash Investigations” available on YouTube, they are kind of addictive too.

Just don’t read the comments, more and more Dudebro inspired poisoning showing up. Stuff along the lines of “American made planes, with American made computers, navigated by American controlled GPS. This means they can crash any plane and kill anyone any time they want, blah, blah, blah…” (kinda sad really)

That’s not Dudebro. That’s Alex Jones shit.

Your average Dudebro may be a misguided mouth-breather, but they generally don’t reach the level of an InfoWar (9/11 was an inside job!!) fucknut.

133 Summer Seale  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 11:20:11pm

Hi again,

And, as usual, late to the party. Of course, it’s 8:51am here in Israel so I always miss the last posts overnight and have to catch up in the morning.

I heard about the Angola story a few days ago and I figured:

1) It’s Angola. I don’t know anything about Angola and, I’m pretty sure, almost none of the rest of the world does either. I do know that they had a horrible civil war which lasted for decades and that South African troops were involved for a long time as well in the late 80’s or 90’s. Other than that, and the oil wealth, Angola isn’t a country of which I’m aware of in any real fashion.

2) I wasn’t sure that the story was true and, quite honestly, I didn’t much care. The reason is that it’s not known for being an incredibly free democracy as far as I can tell, and that dictatorships in the Muslim world often ban Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and whatnot. So if one more tin pot dictatorship bans yet another religion to counter them…why should I bother? I’m an atheist and, in fact, an anti-theist. I believe in religious liberty but it isn’t exactly something which is foremost on my mind when I’m debating fundamentalists.

I have to be honest with my feelings, which might get me into a bit of trouble here but so be it: I’m not in favor of banning any religion on principle. I’m American and even though I’ve been living abroad now, I have very American values. But they’re also moderated now with European and Israeli values. As I’ve lived in the UK, France, and Israel, I find myself with a variety of viewpoints on many subjects - not just religion. When France banned the Burka, I was there. I understood. The American inside of me said that it wasn’t a good idea, but the European part of me actually understood. It understood because I’ve lived in Paris and I’ve seen the changes which have occurred in the last few decades. I hate to say this, as a left-leaning liberal, but Sam Harris is right to point out that we are the worst equipped to come face to face with some realities which are completely anathema to us because the right-wing has made a crusade out of them.

We’re loathe to admit certain facts because those facts are taken by the right wing and distorted, and we don’t want to seem to agree with them in any way. I know because I feel that way myself. I’m loathe to admit that anyone like Rush Limbaugh or Bryan Fischer are making a good point. If Bryan Fischer told me it’s noon, and it was actually noon, I’d try to find a way to say that he’s got to be lying. And I’d be doing that because he’s a bigot, a fascist fundamentalist, an idiot, a liar, and an asshole.

But having seen the amount of societal changes in Europe for myself, people like Douglas Murray, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and others of the centre-right make a little more sense to me. I also agree with them. And regardless of how some on the left have been portraying those two and others, they are trying to wrench back the actual discussion to more moderate circles where racism and group-hatred isn’t allowed.

Now, with that said, as an American, I completely understand when Americans (liberals mostly, such as myself) are outraged when stuff like this happens, or is said to have happened, or is even insinuated. I understand the sentiment completely. But the fact is that most Americans haven’t experienced certain things in their lives. They have no idea of the utility of a checkpoint sometimes in the middle of the road. They don’t understand why a Burka can be a political statement, or the dangers involved in certain segments of an immigrant population. They also don’t happen to live in a country, or have surrounding nations (or states, as the size is more appropriate) where religious fanatics are blowing up people, burning churches, synagogues, mosques, and all manner of other things.

Americans had 9/11. I know, because I was there. I saw it with my own eyes as I was living in New York at the time. That’s another story for another time, however and I’m sure I’ve written about it before.

But that’s all we really have as a nation. We have 9/11. And that was twelve years ago. And while some on the right have been milking this for every single bloody ounce of tears which they can get, most people are fed up hearing about it. Most people have moved on and are tired of anything to do with the Middle East.

They’re tired because we’re Americans, we have incredible isolation from most things in our daily lives, and we don’t face religious bigotry, hatred, and terrorism every single day of our lives. We get pissed off because we’re delayed by the TSA for half an hour at the airport because, frankly, we’re that much of the little fucking princesses which people say that we are.

And that’s where I’m getting to with all of this: we know and understand nothing about these matters. And people who live their lives in fear of what one group can do to them are going to behave in drastically different ways than we do.

I’m not saying that it’s right. I’m not saying that the idea is a good one - I’d rather not ban anything, including the Burka. But I at least understand the motivation behind some who would rather do away with one extremism or another. I understand why Germany banned Nazis, why France banned the Burka, and why some people would want to ban Islam. On the latter point, I don’t think it would work and I do think that it would cause far more harm than good. It would make more terrorists than it would avoid. It would cause far more unrest and hatred than not to do it.

But I sure as hell understand the sentiment. And, frankly, I’m a little tired of people who don’t - especially liberals such as myself. We’re for freedom, for liberty, for equal rights, but many of us seem to have become tolerant of intolerance. That’s where I have a problem. That’s where I’m putting my foot down. I’m not calling for a ban on religions, because it would include every single religion on the planet, but I am calling for a little bit of agreement that there is a big problem with Islam and that I’m not the only liberal to have noticed this. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens all noticed it as well. And it isn’t because they’re anti-Muslim. They’re pro-reality.

And the reality is that as bad as our right wing fanatics are, and believe me I would have them all up against the wall if the revolution ever comes again, our system has been absolutely blessed by good fortune for not having those abuses in the last several decades (by and large) which are an every single day reality in other parts of the world.

Now, if anyone here is going to accuse me of being a right winger in disguise, or being an apologist for the shrieking harpy, or for being a fascist in sheep’s clothing, I highly suggest that they look up my previous posts from years past to truly see what I think of the right wing in America. But there you have it: I don’t agree with many on this blog when it comes to Islam. I don’t agree that it is a peaceful religion. I don’t agree that it is in any way something which can be lauded. I absolutely dislike every single supernatural mumbo jumbo there is (and there is plenty of that crap here in Israel from Jews as well, might I add). Of course, I don’t think all Muslims fall into the terrorism category, or even the terrorist sympathizer category. But I also realize how fucking bad their societies are when the extremists take over. They are really, really, really bad. And, apparently, many Muslims out there who may not agree with what is being done have never heard that all it takes for the bad people to win is for good people to do nothing.

There. I’ve had my morning rant. People can take it as they will. I probably will have very little time to respond to anything, if I even remember to check this thread again at all. I’ve got a tremendous amount of work to do today and through the weekend for various things.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

134 Single-handed sailor  Wed, Nov 27, 2013 11:53:13pm

Wow.

I’m glad I’m too drunk to respond.


ffffffffff… , whatever.

135 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 12:01:46am

re: #71 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

OH HAI LIZARDS HAPPY THANKSGIVUKKAH!!!

I am here in the beautiful historic Brown Hotel in Louisville, which is a totes classy joint.

We had a nice clear, dry drive, no weather problems at all except for a snow flurry near Dayton which lasted for about 10 minutes.

When we got to Louisville we were all ready to light Hanukkah candles, except that I forgot to pack the little travel Hanukkiah that we bought in Israel last year, even though I remembered to pack the candles. I just thought I put it together with the box of candles, but oh well.

So we lit candles on a piece of foil.

Welcome to Louisville, my second hometown after NYC! I would recommend a Hot Brown Sandwich, but it is definitely NOT kosher (ham, cheesy sauce and turkey, plus maybe bacon — I forget). I used to teach in a school just a block east of the Brown on Broadway.

Enjoy your stay!

136 ausador  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 12:06:42am

I didn’t realize that Charles’ musical selection the other night had almost kinda become a meme…

Original SNL skit…
Youtube Video

Parody of the SNL skit…
Youtube Video

Mmm, watcha say…DUCK!

137 klys  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 12:12:45am

re: #133 Summer Seale

I don’t agree with many on this blog when it comes to Islam. I don’t agree that it is a peaceful religion. I don’t agree that it is in any way something which can be lauded. I absolutely dislike every single supernatural mumbo jumbo there is (and there is plenty of that crap here in Israel from Jews as well, might I add). Of course, I don’t think all Muslims fall into the terrorism category, or even the terrorist sympathizer category. But I also realize how fucking bad their societies are when the extremists take over. They are really, really, really bad. And, apparently, many Muslims out there who may not agree with what is being done have never heard that all it takes for the bad people to win is for good people to do nothing.

There. I’ve had my morning rant. People can take it as they will. I probably will have very little time to respond to anything, if I even remember to check this thread again at all. I’ve got a tremendous amount of work to do today and through the weekend for various things.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

You’re so amazingly generous, to realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. Or even terrorist sympathizers.

Really.

Actually, no, I’m going to go with just full of bullshit.

/I’d write a longer response but from your last bit there, it seems I shouldn’t bother, so I won’t.

138 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 12:18:29am

re: #137 dr. klys

Christianity has not always been a peaceful religion, either. Nor has Buddhism or Hinduism, or in fact most religions, at one point in history or another.

Singling out Islam as inherently violent is a crock.

139 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 1:11:13am

re: #124 Lidane

That’s just it, though. Even if you had a bill that just focused on background checks with nothing else attached to it, the NRA and the gun nuts would still squeal like stuck pigs over it. They’d attach so many conditions and loopholes to that law that you might as well not bother at all.

It’s like my contention that anyone who wants a gun license should spend documented time in a class THEN show documented time at a gun range, because there’s no reason to own a gun if you don’t know the how to properly load, clean, shoot, store, and maintain the damn thing in the first place. A bill like that would have so many exceptions added to it that it would be pointless.

In my mind the documented time should include a combat range. One of those where targets pop up and you don’t shoot the little old ladies or kids.

That will never happen though.

140 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 1:38:26am

or one where two black youths in hoodies pop up, you have to decide which is the threatening crackhead gangsta and which is the kids who went out to fetch skittles and sprite…

141 sagehen  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 1:53:10am

Maybe we could get gun control the same way Cali did 40 years ago…

Get a bunch of black guys, in dark clothes and berets, to do open carry patrols. In groups of 10 or more. Just walk around, clearly strapped. When anybody asks why the guns, they say “for self-defense. 2nd Amendment.”

A couple weeks of that, especially if they’ve chosen the right neighborhoods for it… conservatives will be clamoring for weapons restrictions.

142 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 1:58:46am

We are dealing with people who want to “get back to Constitution as our Founding Fathers conceived it”, namely with rights for Christian white males and nobody else

143 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 2:43:10am

re: #64 Lidane

[Embedded content]

I can’t believe this story got by the Lizards!

Why is there even an American embassy for the Vatican anyway? It’s not a “nation”—it’s simply land owned by the Catholic hierarchy and administered by the church.

Is there an embassy for any other religion?

Meanwhile, Angola is a client nation of China and Russia which often happens when ex-colonial countries are still experiencing growing pains. Its rulers are going to get rich at the expense of the welfare of the rest of the population because it has rich resources, but Angola was gripped by 25+ years of civil war which only ended in 2002.

Disrespecting the authorities is illegal, so if you’re a visitor, don’t complain about bureaucrats. Other cautions, giving you a snapshot of conditions in this “socialist” country can be found on this travel advisory from the State Dept.

travel.state.gov

In fact, Angola is a dictatorship, with its President having concentrated and full powers, even to appointing the governors of the 18 provinces rather than being elected by the people they serve.

I suppose after almost 500 yrs of Portuguese rule, which included the slave trade, most of which went to another Portuguese colony, Brazil, Angola is undergoing a lot of growing pains with its “independence”. This won’t be the last we hear from them, and about them, I suspect.

144 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:02:14am

re: #143 Justanotherhuman

AFAIK, the Vatican State is a political entity, just like Monaco or Leichtenstein.

145 Kragar  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:11:30am
146 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:19:07am

I don’t get it: Obama should be held up as proof of the American Dream: anyone, regardless of race or background, who works hard enough can become President.

Instead, he is derided as a Kenyan interloper, an Affirmative Action poster child or a grown up Trayvon Martin.

That is definitely the point at which the white robe under the suit starts to show…

147 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:28:35am

re: #145 Kragar

Sadly, NPR is not among them, as I heard them ask Dinesh D’Racist for comment on the ACA yesterday.

148 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:36:15am

re: #144 Sol Berdinowitz

AFAIK, the Vatican State is a political entity, just like Monaco or Leichtenstein.

It’s described as a “ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical” state. Its inhabitants are clergy or their Swiss guards, few “civilians” actually live there and its couple of thousands of non-clerical employees are Italian citizens.

I still consider it more of an administrative entity of the Catholic church as well as the guardian of its substantial wealth.

It remains a tiny, exclusive collection of the Catholic hierarchy and an anathema to democracy.

149 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:37:36am

re: #148 Justanotherhuman

It’s described as a “ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical” state. Its inhabitants are clergy or their Swiss guards, few “civilians” actually live there and its couple of thousands of non-clerical employees are Italian citizens.

I still consider it more of an administrative entity of the Catholic church as well as the guardian of its substantial wealth.

It remains a tiny, exclusive collection of the Catholic hierarchy and an anathema to democracy.

Not to mention that it is in control of “oversight” of the Vatican bank accounts.

150 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:45:34am

re: #149 Sol Berdinowitz

Not to mention that it is in control of “oversight” of the Vatican bank accounts.

And runs its own bank (and has its own coinage), which is increasingly being suspected of “money laundering” drug and other monies from criminal activities.

U.S. adds Vatican to money-laundering ‘concern’ list

reuters.com

And not all Italians are happy about its activities.

“The Vatican Bank, founded in 1942 by Pope Pius XII, has been in the spotlight since September 2010 when Italian investigators froze 23 million euros ($33 million) in funds in Italian banks after opening an investigation into possible money-laundering.

“The bank said it did nothing wrong and was just transferring funds between its own accounts. The money was released in June 2011 but the investigation is continuing.

(snip)

“The Vatican Bank was formally known as the Institute for Works of Religion (IOR) and was entangled in the collapse 30 years ago of Banco Ambrosiano, with its lurid allegations about money-laundering, freemasons, mafiosi and the mysterious death of Ambrosiano chairman Roberto Calvi - “God’s banker”.”

151 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:53:14am

re: #150 Justanotherhuman

Hey, I saw “Godfather III”…

152 urbanmeemaw  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 3:56:15am

re: #45 Charles Johnson

But PORNZZZZZZZ! Cue investigation by Issa in 2, 3, 1…

153 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 4:40:19am

I can understand that a lot of people are made highly uneasy by the thought of the NSA investigating their Internet pr0n activites

154 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 4:56:32am

re: #153 Sol Berdinowitz

I can understand that a lot of people are made highly uneasy by the thought of the NSA investigating their Internet pr0n activites

I am made highly amused by people who think that any of their Internet activities are not investigatable.

Morning, all. The turkey hits the grill in an hour, after I pry the microchip out.

155 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:21:41am

re: #147 Internet Tough Guy

Sadly, NPR is not among them, as I heard them ask Dinesh D’Racist for comment on the ACA yesterday.

They can still think D’Souza is a douchebag, but still want him on the air in order to get viewers. He functions well as someone the liberals in the home audience can jeer at and their emotions will hopefully connect them to the program.

156 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:28:12am

re: #152 urbanmeemaw

But PORNZZZZZZZ! Cue investigation by Issa in 2, 3, 1…

Not gonna happen. Congressman Issa has for the most part left the NSA alone, and hearings regarding it would not be televised for security reasons, thus removing the opportunity for the televised grandstanding Congress is so enraptured with.

I repeat my contention that exposing a radicalizing jihadist’s porn viewing is no more morally problematic than tracking down a wingnut preacher’s rent boy (though the NSA should not do the latter if the preacher is an American). In both cases the fundamental moral fault is with the hypocrite, not with the person who exposes them.

157 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:44:09am

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

They can still think D’Souza is a douchebag, but still want him on the air in order to get viewers. He functions well as someone the liberals in the home audience can jeer at and their emotions will hopefully connect them to the program.

Let him talk. It is his approach, like his doom-and-gloom Film about Obama’s America in 2016 that distracts the party from even trying to formulate convincing arguments about why their candidate or policy would be the better one.

That approach failed them in 2008 and 2012 and they seem highly reistant to any other approach.

158 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:49:44am

re: #137 dr. klys

You’re so amazingly generous, to realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. Or even terrorist sympathizers.

Really.

Actually, no, I’m going to go with just full of bullshit.

/I’d write a longer response but from your last bit there, it seems I shouldn’t bother, so I won’t.

QFT

So I wake up and come to check my promoted Page. Here’s how #133 reads to my American Muslim eyes at 8:30 am on Thanksgiving morning:

Hi again, [Hi.]

WTF—LGF is running another POS post that neglects to point out how horrible Islam is? This place used to be great when I first signed up, but it’s totally circling the drain now. [Oh shit, here we go…]

Angola? Religious liberty for Muslims? Pfffft. Dictatorships… blah, blah, blah… some Muslim countries ban other religions, so no Muslims anywhere have any business expecting religious freedom for themselves… blah, blah, blah… fundamentalists… blah, blah, blah… I hate religion… blah, blah, blah… [*groans* at visions of Newt Gingrich and Bryan Fischer…]

I have to be honest… [Oh great, now the fun is gonna start for real…]

Why do you American liberals have to be such all-inclusive kumbaya-singing pussies living over there on that big isolated land mass? Why can’t you be more like the Israelis or the French?… blah, blah, blah… Americans should wake up and be more xenophobic… 9/11 [it’s mandatory that this be mentioned whenever Muslims are discussed, but in this case it seems to be to point out that Americans don’t know REAL suffering at the hands of Muslims, or perhaps just not frequent enough suffering]… blah, blah, blah…

You know, I’m American too, but I’m EVER so much more savvy & sophisticated than you—you guys are nothing but a bunch of whiny little fucking princesses… blah, blah, blah…

Germany banned Nazis [Godwin!], France banned the burqa, some people want to ban Islam—so what? They have a point… blah, blah, blah… I’m not calling for a ban on religions [well, gosh, thanks—lucky for us you’re not Atheist Queen of the World]… blah, blah, blah… famous atheists… blah, blah, blah… there’s no bigotry there, they’re just noble heroes bravely telling The Truth™… blah, blah, blah…

If we ever had another revolution I would put the right wingers up against the wall [presumably to execute them by firing squad], but as bad as they are we’re nonetheless fortunate that those awful Muslims [who are presumably even worse] haven’t destroyed our peace with their fanatical, murdering, rioting ways… blah, blah, blah…

I’m not a right winger or a raging bigot, but many of you here on LGF are wrong when it comes to Islam—you need to be more intolerant… blah, blah, blah… Islam sucks. It’s inherently violent and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Did I mention that I also dislike Judaism because it too is just a bunch of supernatural mumbo jumbo? [That must make you a truly delightful and much sought after guest at holiday family gatherings in Israel.]… blah, blah, blah…

I don’t think all Muslims are terrorists or even terrorist sympathizers [how generous of you], but… blah, blah, blah… even potentially good Muslims suck because they never try to change the staus quo or speak out against the bad guys [total bullshit]… blah, blah, blah…

There. I came and dropped a turd on your holiday—I feel SO much better now, don’t you? Oh, and FYI: While I took the time to type out all this bullshit, I probably won’t condescend to come back and read your reactions or respond to them as I’ll be MUCH too busy this weekend doing more important things.

Have a great Thanksgiving. [O_o Yeah, fuck you too.]

*SMH* It never ceases to amaze me.

BTW, why in the hell do people always come in here and assert that LGF members think there are no problems with Islam and/or that radical Islam should be tolerated? I’ve never seen anyone here say anything of the sort.

I’m gonna go back to bed and try starting over again later.

159 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:50:40am

Great post CL. Very interesting situation, and it’s not surprising at all that there’s a whole lot more involved than what the headlines blare.

Anyways, here’s to everyone having a happy Thanksgiving.

Things I’m thankful for this year? The Mrs. Friends. Family. Our continuing good health. Watching our extended family grow by leaps and bounds. Having gotten to see Yosemite in person. Having an intellectually satisfying job with great colleagues and coworkers.

160 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:52:37am

Snark retracted.

161 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:53:15am

re: #146 Sol Berdinowitz

It’s when the pointy hats (and not the tricorn variety) begin to show.

162 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:53:42am

re: #159 lawhawk

Great post CL. Very interesting situation, and it’s not surprising at all that there’s a whole lot more involved than what the headlines blare.

Anyways, here’s to everyone having a happy Thanksgiving.

Things I’m thankful for this year? The Mrs. Friends. Family. Our continuing good health. Watching our extended family grow by leaps and bounds. Having gotten to see Yosemite in person. Having an intellectually satisfying job with great colleagues and coworkers.

Thanks. Happy Thanksgivukkah to you. ;) Have fun & be safe.

163 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:54:21am

re: #160 CuriousLurker

>Really, D_F? You updinged that screed? Remind me never to be fool enough to fucking defend you again.

The ding’s reversed; I’d actually updinged it when I first saw it, as most of the time Summer’s been downdinged it was by haters.

164 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:56:58am

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

The ding’s reversed; I’d actually updinged it when I first saw it, as most of the time Summer’s been downdinged it was by haters.

Thanks—snark retracted as well.

165 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 5:57:47am

re: #160 CuriousLurker

I didn’t agree with Summer’s characterization of Islam, but I felt her “you don’t know what its like” part had utility. In retrospect, that still didn’t merit an upding weighed against the problematic parts.

Please excuse my myopia (in both senses of the word).

166 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:01:01am

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

No harm, no foul, Dark. That stupid post just put me in a pissy mood this morning. It’s prolly best for me to stay away from politics & Twitter as much as possible today.

*flips desk on the way out… *

167 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:04:34am

re: #166 CuriousLurker

No harm, no foul, Dark. That stupid post just put me in a pissy mood this morning. It’s prolly best for me to stay away from politics & Twitter as much as possible today.

*flips desk on the way out… *

Don’t let it get to you. But you’re right about staying away from Twitter. That site just makes DERP too easy, and its character limit favors DERP heavily.

168 Stanley Sea  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:07:40am

Happy Thanksgiving LGF.

Try as I may I cannot sleep in. Oh well, let the day begin!

169 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:10:27am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

My internal clock is set, no matter what - I’m up at the crack of dawn whether I need to be up or not.

More things to be thankful for:

March of the Wooden Soldiers is on. That’s a tradition that just doesn’t get old - even in its colorized version.

And the Macy’s Parade’s balloons are going to be able to fly (at least at the outset).

170 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:10:31am

Morning Lizards. Happy Thanksgiving.

171 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:10:42am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

Happy Thanksgiving LGF.

Try as I may I cannot sleep in. Oh well, let the day begin!

Me neither, but I was in bed by 10:30 so its not a surprise.

172 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:10:58am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

Happy Thanksgiving LGF.

Try as I may I cannot sleep in. Oh well, let the day begin!

Can’t … resist …

Youtube Video

Here’s to the babies in a brand new world
Here’s to the beauty of the stars
Here’s to the travellers on the open road
Here’s to the dreamers in the bars

Here’s to the teachers in the crowded rooms
Here’s to the workers in the fields
Here’s to the preachers of the sacred words
Here’s to the drivers at the wheel

Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Now let the day begin
Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Now let the day begin, let the day begin

Here’s to the winners of the human race
Here’s to the losers in the game
Here’s to the soldiers of the bitter war
Here’s to the wall that bears their names

Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Now let the day begin
Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Let the day begin, let the day begin, let the day start

Here’s to the doctors and their healing work
Here’s to the loved ones in their care
Here’s to the strangers on the streets tonight
Here’s to the lonely everywhere

Here’s to the wisdom from the mouths of babes
Here’s to the lions in the cage
Here’s to the struggles of the silent war
Here’s to the closing of the age.

Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Now let the day begin
Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Let the day begin

Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Let the day begin
Here’s to you my little loves with blessings from above
Now let the day begin, let the day begin, let the day start

173 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:14:42am

re: #169 lawhawk

My internal clock is set, no matter what - I’m up at the crack of dawn whether I need to be up or not.

More things to be thankful for:

March of the Wooden Soldiers is on. That’s a tradition that just doesn’t get old - even in its colorized version.

And the Macy’s Parade’s balloons are going to be able to fly (at least at the outset).

Three year old is visiting. We’re using his internal clock.

174 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:17:53am

Happy Thanksgiving! The bird is in the oven, a couple of things need to be prepped, but folks aren’t supposed to arrive until at least 1 o’clock.

I’m taking a short “rest” when I came across this, which is an abomination:

14 girls receive 11 years in jail for protesting in Egypt

patrickgaley.com

That’s 11 yrs each.

175 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:22:59am

Happy Thanksgiving from China, y’all! It’s 10:20 pm here. I had lunch with a good friend, and dinner with eight students, who cooked the meal and washed the dishes afterward, and three other expat teachers. Nary a turkey in sight, but pork, fish, tofu and many veggies were adequate stand-ins. Hope you all have a great day in the USA.

176 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:25:28am

re: #175 wheat-dogghazi

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. And here is a link to the page I just created for this holiday. littlegreenfootballs.com

177 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:25:39am

re: #133 Summer Seale

You dumped such a big load of Derp in here I don’t know how to respond to it all but I will just respond to this:

Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens all noticed it as well. And it isn’t because they’re anti-Muslim. They’re pro-reality.

All those guys you mentioned (don’t forget Pat Condell!!) are (in Hitchen’s case, were) very anti-religious so their views can be summed up as HURR HURR ALL RELIGIONS SUCKS!! DON’T CALL ME AN ISLAMOPHOBE BECAUSE I HATES ALL TEH RELIGIONS BUT ISLAM IS WORSER THEN ALL TEH OTHER BAD RELIGIONS HURR HURR

Yes religious people can be assholes but then atheists can be too. People use religion as an excuse to be assholes because they’re assholes. If they are not religious they express their assholism in different ways but it has nothing to do with Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Khorneism, is all has to do with Assholism.

178 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:27:15am

re: #142 Sol Berdinowitz

We are dealing with people who want to “get back to Constitution as our Founding Fathers conceived it”, namely with rights for Christian white males who were land owners and nobody else

ftfy

179 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:28:33am

forgot about the landowning

180 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:29:02am

re: #174 Justanotherhuman

Happy Thanksgiving! The bird is in the oven, a couple of things need to be prepped, but folks aren’t supposed to arrive until at least 1 o’clock.

I’m taking a short “rest” when I came across this, which is an abomination:

14 girls receive 11 years in jail for protesting in Egypt

patrickgaley.com

That’s 11 yrs each.

The Egyptian junta has decided to shut down the protests roiling Cairo in a very heavy-handed way. If the initial efforts fail to fully close down protests (as I expect them to do), then the junta is liable to get even nastier about things. I won’t be surprised if al Sisi starts adopting the sort of terror tactics seen in Chile and Argentina in the 1970’s.

181 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:33:13am

Happy Thanksgiving from the Czech Republic, where I shall be dining on turkey chili tonight. With garlic toast.

We had an ice storm here early this morning, making driving - and walking - quite hazardous, to say the least. Cars and people slipping and sliding everywhere.

moravskoslezsky.denik.cz

182 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:34:23am

I’m just waiting for Zedushka to finish the morning and Hanukkah prayers so that we can check out and drive on to Huntsville.

183 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:36:05am

re: #182 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

I’m just waiting for Zedushka to finish the morning and Hanukkah prayers so that we can check out and drive on to Huntsville.

Where are you now? (city/town and state is all I’m asking)

184 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:36:45am

So much Derp on Teh Twitters this morning from wingnuts & dudebros

No I’m not embedding it here. In fact I am just going to shut down the Tweetdeck.

185 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:36:57am

re: #183 Dark_Falcon

Where are you now? (city/town and state is all I’m asking)

Louisville.

186 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:37:18am

re: #179 Sol Berdinowitz

forgot about the landowning

No, don’t forget about the landowning, because that would favor me and that which favors DF is the Greatest Good.


///////Ego Trip.

187 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:38:41am

re: #184 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

So much Derp on Teh Twitters this morning from wingnuts & dudebros

No I’m not embedding it here. In fact I am just going to shut down the Tweetdeck.

Good idea. Thanksgiving is a day to ignore Twitter.

188 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:43:33am

I agreed with about 95% of SS’s post.

The 5% I didn’t was pretty shitty.

In a sane and just world Bryan Fischer would be relegated to the street corner babbling his BS, but not ‘up against the wall.’

189 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:48:05am

re: #188 Tim TeaBro

I agreed with about 95% of SS’s post.

The 5% I didn’t was pretty shitty.

In a sane and just world Bryan Fischer would be relegated to the street corner babbling his BS, but not ‘up against the wall.’

Yeah, that part bothered me as well. The firing squad is only for those who have either murdered someone or directed caused a murder or murders. bad as Bryan Fischer is, he doesn’t fit either of those two categories.


Note: I understand some people here don’t support capital punishment and I respect that. But I do support it in some cases, and I was just explaining that this would not be one of them.

190 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:49:27am

I did to on Teh Twitters just to post this one thing.

191 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:50:38am

About that photo:

This historic photo of light over darkness was taken in Kiel, Germany across the street from the local Nazi party headquarters. The wife of Rabbi Akiva Baruch Posner who placed this #Menorah wrote on the back “their flag wishes to see the death of Judah, but Judah will always survive, and our light will outlast their flag.’”

192 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 6:55:33am

re: #191 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

About that photo:

This historic photo of light over darkness was taken in Kiel, Germany across the street from the local Nazi party headquarters. The wife of Rabbi Akiva Baruch Posner who placed this #Menorah wrote on the back “their flag wishes to see the death of Judah, but Judah will always survive, and our light will outlast their flag.’”

Thank you for sharing that today.

193 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:00:40am

As always, the Muslims killed by fundamentalist terrorists don’t matter.

Because the fundamentalists are the Real Muslims, right?

I mean they say they’re the Real Muslims, so we should totally believe them. I mean, they must be sincere, since they’re willing to blow up their co-religionists on a daily basis to get the rest of the Islamic world to do things their way.

Because, hey, when a terrorist groups kills people to drive home that they are the only people who should be listened to, that they command the narrative, then we should totally obey, right?

194 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:02:37am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

Happy Thanksgiving LGF.

Try as I may I cannot sleep in. Oh well, let the day begin!

And let your day be full of awesomeness!

195 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:02:50am

I cooked the turkey and roast potatoes last night, just about the right cooking time. But I turned the oven off and didn’t open the door.

Will fire up the oven shorty to heat up the turkey and potatoes.

Mom has to leave early.

196 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:03:59am

My daughter shared this view of the Western Wall from her office.

Happy chanukah from Jerusalem! The weather here is so warm it’s like spring out here.

197 darthstar  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:05:22am

Happy Turkey Day…here’s a handy CT chart for figuring out where the people at your table stand.

crispian-jago.blogspot.co.uk

198 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:06:03am

Hard to believe a made up online currency could be worth so much, but dudebro’s memory is apparently not too good.

James Howells searches for hard drive with £4m-worth of bitcoins stored

bbc.co.uk

199 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:07:43am

re: #193 The Ghost of a Flea

As always, the Muslims killed by fundamentalist terrorists don’t matter.

Because the fundamentalists are the Real Muslims, right?

I mean they say they’re the Real Muslims, so we should totally believe them. I mean, they must be sincere, since they’re willing to blow up their co-religionists on a daily basis to get the rest of the Islamic world to do things their way.

Because, hey, when a terrorist groups kills people to drive home that they are the only people who should be listened to, that they command the narrative, then we should totally obey, right?

You’re referring to Summer’s post, correct?

200 Lord of the Pies  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:10:05am

We’re still in Louisville. It’s a very long Hanukkah service. :)

My son called, said “What do y’all want for dinner?”

I said “Aren’t we having turkey?”

He said “We learned from you to have the turkey dinner on Friday night! Anyway you’re bringing the turkey so when are we gonna have time to cook it?”

I said “OK how about chili dogs?”

“That sounds great!”

201 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:10:44am

upworthy.com

A Neo-Nazi Walked Into A Jewish Man’s Antique Store. Can You Guess What Happened Next?

202 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:13:12am

re: #200 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

We’re still in Louisville. It’s a very long Hanukkah service. :)

My son called, said “What do y’all want for dinner?”

I said “Aren’t we having turkey?”

He said “We learned from you to have the turkey dinner on Friday night! Anyway you’re bringing the turkey so when are we gonna have time to cook it?”

I said “OK how about chili dogs?”

“That sounds great!”

You taught your son well.

203 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:14:27am

re: #133 Summer Seale

Islam isn’t a monolithic religion. It’s just like all the other religions. It’s got lots of different kinds, and we can easily see by looking at history, Islamic countries have waxed and waned, been at times more or less enlightened than their neighbors.

Your message is especially shitty to lay out on Thanksgiving.

204 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:15:23am

5.6 quake strikes near Bushehr, Iran. If the name sounds familiar, it’s because that’s where the Iranians built a nuclear power plant. That area is highly susceptible to quakes, and while the Iranians claim that the reactor was built to high seismic standards, and no damage was reported so far.

205 darthstar  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:17:00am

re: #204 lawhawk

And thanks to Kerry and Obama, that will be verified.

206 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:20:10am

re: #185 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

Louisville.

Lou-a-vul, or Lou-vull, to some natives. Don’t say Louie-ville, please. Thanks.

207 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:20:17am

Good morning Lizards! Cold out (12 F), but no additional snow last night even though the forecast called for it.

The pie is finis. (For those who remarked on my last post with pictures my brother found those comments quite amusing.)

Last night’s dinner - in stages. Went very well with a dry red, a Marichel Foch (sp).

Image: Quiche_I.jpg

Image: Quiche_II.jpg

Image: Quiche_III.jpg

Mushroom and bacon quiche. Cheese is a decent, but not great, pepper jack. The mushrooms were two types of wild chanterelles that my brother had picked earlier in the year and frozen. (He says it was a very good year for wild mushrooms.)

Spanikopita being made shortly for taking to a dinner we were invited to. Will be taking wine as well.

Glad to see that “Pumpkin Pie of Zion” arrived safely in Louisville. :)

208 Stanley Sea  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:20:59am

From Dr. Luba @ Balloon Juice:

I love watching the holiday classics: A Christmas Carol, Christmas Story, The Grinch Who Stole Christmas, It’s a Wonderful Life, Miracle on 34th Street……and the Palin Turkey Massacre. They never get old.

209 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:21:54am

So, imagine, if you will. The first Thanksgiving. Pilgrims, who sailed on nasty ships, and decided to make a home. Digging in the dirt, eating new food, making themselves sick, trying new food. Reaching out to (GASP) savages, who knew how to live on this land, and being grateful!
So, be grateful!
Your turkey is cooked in an oven, you didn’t have to go shoot one.
And, add your blessings here!
Oh, and I am grateful for my blessings!

210 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:24:18am

This is making the rounds on Facebook now, and it might be old news to youse, but here it is anyway.

GAP ran an ad in the NYC subways featuring a Sikh male model with an attractive Anglo-looking female model. Some idiot defaced the subway ad. So, GAP made the ad part of its Twitter banner, as a nice quiet eff yu to bigots.

Image: enhanced-buzz-3031-1385507549-25.jpg

Details at buzzfeed.com

211 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:28:15am

re: #208 Stanley Sea

From Dr. Luba @ Balloon Juice:

I don’t like Sarah Palin but I always felt that ‘Turkey massacre” angle of the story was an appeal to uninformed emotion. The turkeys being slaughtered are being killed per SOP for turkey slaughter; If you eat turkey that’s part of how it gets to your plate.

As for Sarah Palin’s lack of reaction or concern about the process, that’s not abnormal with her upbringing. She grew up in a hunting family, and her family does fish for salmon commercially, So the killing and processing of animals is something she got used to a long way back.

Again, I’m not a Sarah Palin fan.

212 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:30:34am

re: #177 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

Yes religious people can be assholes but then atheists can be too. People use religion as an excuse to be assholes because they’re assholes. If they are not religious they express their assholism in different ways but it has nothing to do with Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Khorneism, is all has to do with Assholism.

Actually, I regard atheism as another form of faith. Believers (in Allah to Zeus, take your pick) say there is a God(s). Atheists say there are no God(s), Allah to Zeus, take your pick.

Neither is a belief that can be proven through scientific methods, chiefly observation. So I don’t find it surprising that atheists can be as big of assholes as believers.

The best excuses are ones that can’t even be observed, never mind disproven.

213 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:35:33am

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like Sarah Palin but I always felt that ‘Turkey massacre” angle of the story was an appeal to uninformed emotion. The turkeys being slaughtered are being killed per SOP for turkey slaughter; If you eat turkey that’s part of how it gets to your plate.

As for Sarah Palin’s lack of reaction or concern about the process, that’s not abnormal with her upbringing. She grew up in a hunting family, and her family does fish for salmon commercially, So the killing and processing of animals is something she got used to a long way back.

Again, I’m not a Sarah Palin fan.

Oh, please. Everything, every piece of publicity for Palin is staged for maximum effect, whether it’s her “exorcism”, her dramatic weight loss, her parading her daughter at the RNC—whatever. All of it is designed to elicit some kind of response.

She goes by the dictum that “Bad publicity is better than no publicity.”

214 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:37:23am

One of the better headlines I’ve read this year:

Thailand: North Korea Comes By To Break Bad

November 20, 2013: Five men arrested here recently as they prepared to smuggle 100 kg (220 pounds) of 99 percent pure North Korean methamphetamine to the United States (via Thailand) were extradited to the United States. Because of the U.S. connection Thailand allowed extradition of the five (who are British, Filipino, Taiwanese and Slovakian) to the United States for prosecution and, one presumes, intense interrogation. North Korea has long been a supplier of methamphetamine in the region. Last year some 227 million doses of methamphetamine, worth about $1.3 billion were seized in the region. That’s a seven fold increase from 2008. Methamphetamine is the most popular drug in East and Southeast Asia. Most of the seized pills were taken in China (45 percent) and Thailand (42 percent) and most of it is coming from meth labs in northern Burma. It’s believed that Burmese meth labs produce about 1.4 billion doses (in pill form) of methamphetamines each year, which have a street value of over $8 billion. At least a quarter of that stays in the Burmese tribal territories where that kind of money has become a key component of the local economy. North Korea has long produced meth but noting the success of the tribal producers in Burma has increased production and distribution. The North Koreans are producing a purer and more powerful form of meth and expect to displace the lower quality Burmese stuff in some markets.

(Bolding mine)

Though Kim Jong Un is more Jesse Pinkman than Walter White in my mind.

215 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:37:33am

re: #212 Romantic Heretic

Actually, I regard atheism as another form of faith.

It’s not a form of faith. It is a lack of faith.

216 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:37:41am

re: #210 wheat-dogghazi

This is making the rounds on Facebook now, and it might be old news to youse, but here it is anyway.

GAP ran an ad in the NYC subways featuring a Sikh male model with an attractive Anglo-looking female model. Some idiot defaced the subway ad. So, GAP made the ad part of its Twitter banner, as a nice quiet eff yu to bigots.

Image: enhanced-buzz-3031-1385507549-25.jpg

Details at buzzfeed.com

Hm. I find the Sikh model even more attractive. : )

217 A Mom Anon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:39:02am

re: #184 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion

I’m sure there’s lots of awesome stuff on Twitter, but I just cannot bring myself to open an account just because of the massive dump people take on it daily. Just. No. I’m depressed enough at the idiot state of humanity as it is.

On the “news” last night they were making heroes out of the assholes camping out for the latest whatever, many since LAST week. Including families with kids in elementary school. Really? This is the holiday memory you want to give your kids? And some moron trumpeting that this is what it Means to Be an American. Capitalism. Gag. And the newscreatures just chortled and thought it was awesome. Gag again. So instead of being in a warm home with family around the table, talking and playing games and other traditions, they’re in a tent in front of a store in subfreezing weather eating fast food. To save money on a cheap laptop with a brand name I never heard of that will most likely end up in a landfill in 6 months. Way to go mom and dad, way to go.

218 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:39:07am

re: #215 Tim TeaBro

It’s not a form of faith. It is a lack of faith.

It is insisting that you know something that cannot be known.

219 Dr. Matt  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:40:27am

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Shocking, you actually had to share your so-called “principled” view for a fucking joke. It really does get boring. Really.

Happy Turkey Day everyone…..I’m sure falcon will correct my improper designation of Thanksgiving.

Go Lions

220 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:40:49am

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

It is insisting that you know something that cannot be known.

I thought that was religion, when it replaces science.

221 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:41:16am

re: #216 Justanotherhuman

Hm. I find the Sikh model even more attractive. : )

Well, to be fair, he IS good-looking, too, but I favor the ladies. ;-)

222 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:42:29am

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

You’re referring to Summer’s post, correct?

I can’t address her post directly.

I don’t know how to communicate how scared you can be about your relatives in Peshawar, because you know their sect is one the Taliban would proscribe…and then someones bombs a wedding and kill 100 people. Or being age 17 and having a serious talk with my parents about marrying a “cousin” (my Pakistani family are not blood kin) to get her a green card and get her out.

I’m so tired of how lazy this discussion is. That Dawkins and co so clearly have a cursory knowledge of Islam proper, and of geopolitics, but are viewed as “authorities” on the basis of being able to heap together negative examples from the pick-and-mix of history. When I hear no one speaks out, I means I haven’t looked for those who spoke out.

All of the journalists at El Watan in the 90s who were bombed and assassinated in Algeria . Salman Taseer, Saleem Shahzad, Pakistani journalists. Mufti Sarfraz Naeemi, who gathered Sharia schoiars and issued a condemnation of suicide bombing.

Dead, dead, dead, dead. Nobody in America blinked.

And now the world pisses on their graves, because by dying speaking out against fundamentalists, they’ve proved to not be Real Muslims….

223 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:43:19am

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

It is insisting that you know something that cannot be known.

Uh, no. This is not something that is insisted upon or believed in with faith.

It is an utter lack in the belief of something. Nothing more. I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp, but its pretty important if you want to understand atheism.

It is by default not a belief system.

224 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:53:49am

re: #222 The Ghost of a Flea

I can’t address her post directly.

I don’t know how to communicate how scared you can be about your relatives in Peshawar, because you know their sect is one the Taliban would proscribe…and then someones bombs a wedding and kill 100 people. Or being age 17 and having a serious talk with my parents about marrying a “cousin” (my Pakistani family are not blood kin) to get her a green card and get her out.

I’m so tired of how lazy this discussion is. That Dawkins and co so clearly have a cursory knowledge of Islam proper, and of geopolitics, but are viewed as “authorities” on the basis of being able to heap together negative examples from the pick-and-mix of history. When I hear no one speaks out, I means I haven’t looked for those who spoke out.

All of the journalists at El Watan in the 90s who were bombed and assassinated in Algeria . Salman Taseer, Saleem Shahzad, Pakistani journalists. Mufti Sarfraz Naeemi, who gathered Sharia schoiars and issued a condemnation of suicide bombing.

Dead, dead, dead, dead. Nobody in America blinked.

And now the world pisses on their graves, because by dying speaking out against fundamentalists, they’ve proved to not be Real Muslims….

i don’t think that way, and neither does the current president nor his predecessor. But it is a hallmark of lazy thinking, and laziness is tough to overcome.

225 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:54:56am

re: #219 Dr. Matt

i hope the Lions lose, so that the Bears can get ahead of them in the standings.

Go Bears!

226 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 7:55:17am

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

It is insisting that you know something that cannot be known.

I beg to differ. From a scientific viewpoint, there is no credible evidence for the supernatural, and therefore gods, God, angels, demons, demiurges, ghosts, sprites, fairies, gremlins, nymphs, satyrs, unicorns, centaurs, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and the list goes on. As such, we can confidently presume that these things do not exist, other than as concepts in the human mind.

If you say we cannot know that God, etc., does not exist, then you are implying there is a possibility there is a God, etc. That’s not atheism, but agnosticism.

227 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:02:56am

BBL

228 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:05:20am

Good night from China. Enjoy your turkey, or your chili dogs, as the case may be.

229 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:06:28am

How can one believe in nothing?

230 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:10:47am

Stephen Fry live tweeting the Macy’s parade with photos.
It’s a riot!
For example:

231 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:12:31am
232 GeneJockey  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:21:46am

re: #226 wheat-dogghazi

I beg to differ. From a scientific viewpoint, there is no credible evidence for the supernatural, and therefore gods, God, angels, demons, demiurges, ghosts, sprites, fairies, gremlins, nymphs, satyrs, unicorns, centaurs, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and the list goes on. As such, we can confidently presume that these things do not exist, other than as concepts in the human mind.

If you say we cannot know that God, etc., does not exist, then you are implying there is a possibility there is a God, etc. That’s not atheism, but agnosticism.

I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god or gods.

Since most atheists are rational, they admit the possibility of the existence of a god or gods, just as a rational person admits the possibility that Evolution (for example) could be superceded by a better explanation.

Agnosticism is saying you don’t know if there’s a god or gods. I used to call myself an agnostic, until I realized that I just did it to avoid offending believers.

233 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:29:51am

re: #232 GeneJockey

I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god or gods.

I don’t believe in atheism. I merely don’t believe in god.

It is not faith. It is most certainly a lack of faith.

234 darthstar  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:31:59am
235 Lidane  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:38:46am
236 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:41:23am

re: #235 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Cats are liquids.

237 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:42:35am

re: #233 Tim TeaBro

I don’t believe in atheism. I merely don’t believe in god.

It is not faith. It is most certainly a lack of faith.

That is why I say I am an agnostic. I don’t have the faith to say there is a God. I don’t have the faith to say there isn’t either.

And ultimately, it isn’t a very important question.

238 piratedan  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:42:58am

re: #236 Romantic Heretic

Cats are liquids.

and all this time I’ve been arguing for them as plasma… still, pretty kitty!

239 The War TARDIS  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:44:02am

re: #236 Romantic Heretic

I really want a Ragdoll cat.

240 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:46:25am

re: #229 Tim TeaBro

How can one believe in nothing?

It depends on one’s definition of “believe”, but one way to look at it is that one believes in things for which there is evidence.

241 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:46:46am

re: #235 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Proof of my contention that cats are a form of liquid.

242 calochortus  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:50:31am

re: #232 GeneJockey

I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god or gods.

Since most atheists are rational, they admit the possibility of the existence of a god or gods, just as a rational person admits the possibility that Evolution (for example) could be superceded by a better explanation.

Agnosticism is saying you don’t know if there’s a god or gods. I used to call myself an agnostic, until I realized that I just did it to avoid offending believers.

Just a drive-by to say that’s why we need to standardize these terms. Agnosticism can mean that one doesn’t know if God exists or that the nature of God is unknowable. Atheism can mean one doesn’t believe or it is often taken to mean you firmly believe there is no God.

I’m a bit unusual for my generation, but there are more and more people like me. I was raised in a totally nonreligious household. No church, no Sunday school, no prayer or moment of silent reflection. I’m old enough that we said grace before snacks in kindergarten (a practice which seriously confused me.)

I don’t believe in God the same way I don’t believe in my ability to time travel, or that there is a unicorn in my living room. I can’t prove a negative, but until there is some actual evidence, I’m not going to worry about it. I am, however, open to that evidence, and I have no desire to change other people’s beliefs as long as they don’t try to impose them on me.

I really don’t think that in any way fits the description of a faith on my part.

Happy Thanksgiving, lizards!

243 piratedan  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 8:59:49am

starting now!

mst3kturkeyday.com

244 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:00:49am

re: #242 calochortus

Quite. Son2 insists I’m a ‘soft’ atheist, but I insist on ‘agnostic’. (Could say a ‘hard agnostic’, since I think the question is not only unanswered, but probably unanswerable.

Still, Happy Thanksgiving.

245 Lidane  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:03:43am
246 darthstar  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:05:39am
247 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:05:41am

re: #237 Romantic Heretic

That is why I say I am an agnostic. I don’t have the faith to say there is a God. I don’t have the faith to say there isn’t either.

And ultimately, it isn’t a very important question.

You don’t have to have faith that there isn’t a god. You could merely lack any faith that there is.

This is not a pick a side quandary where both sides are grounded in faith. You do not go to a booth and pick ‘God A, God B, or No-God,’ where all three choices have to utilize faith.

This is an argument that disingenuous theists use for which they build upon in a faith vs faith argument. Of which atheists will invariable lose because of fallacy gallops and the lack of great books written over thousands of years on the subject, in an argument that the disingenuous theist is dictating the terms of .

I’m not calling you a disingenuous theist nor all theists disingenuous. But every once in a while I do feel the need to respond with a minimum tenacity when people describe how I think.

I don’t have faith in a godless world. I lack faith, as in 0, of a godless world existing. This is a key concept rarely discussed or acknowledged.

248 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:11:16am

With regards to the paranormal, I believe there are things that yet elude the scope of human understanding. Ghosts may not necessarily be real but it’s possible that ghost sightings are merely the result of some as yet unexplained scientific phenomena.

249 GeneJockey  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:12:14am

re: #233 Tim TeaBro

I don’t believe in atheism. I merely don’t believe in god.

It is not faith. It is most certainly a lack of faith.

Do you believe there is a god or gods?

If yes, you’re some kind of believer.

If no, you’re an atheist.

If neither you’re confused agnostic.

The thing is, nobody actually KNOWS, because you can’t disprove the existence of a supernatural deity, since inherent in being supernatural would be the ability to make it appear you didn’t exist. Funny how that works, innit?

Lots of people are CERTAIN, but CERTAIN does not automatically imply CORRECT.

250 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:13:31am

I thinks it’s a little funny an atheist and an agnostic are arguing this point.

(pours a glass of wine and wonders if I should check the turkey AGAIN)

251 BeenHereAwhile  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:13:43am

re: #237 Romantic Heretic

OT Romantic Heretic

Dunno if you’ve sorted out the no handshaking between the new laptop and your WiFi router:

Your WiFi router won’t accept the your “password” because it’s looking for the network security key which is a hexadecimal number:
e.g. BB2DFF56B37F8F1A40EE3FC9D5

Login to your router and copy & paste the “network key” to the new laptop.

252 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:15:03am

re: #243 piratedan

starting now!

mst3kturkeyday.com

It’s “Space Mutiny” !!

253 piratedan  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:23:44am

re: #252 Dr Lizardo

It’s “Space Mutiny” !!

this is some high quality stupid…. been a while since I’ve done some LOL like this

254 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:30:48am

re: #253 piratedan

this is some high quality stupid…. been a while since I’ve done some LOL like this

Same here.

“Space Munity”: endorsed by Slab Hardcheese!

255 GeneJockey  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:32:37am

re: #250 Tim TeaBro

I thinks it’s a little funny an atheist and an agnostic are arguing this point.

(pours a glass of wine and wonders if I should check the turkey AGAIN)

In the end, it’s all semantics. You believe what you believe. Atheist or agnostic are just words.

Because I was raised by believers - Mennonites who started out Methodist, but found themselves more in tune with the Pacifism of the Anabaptists - I have long taken pains to avoid offending believers. So, for years, even though I believed there is no god or gods, I called myself agnostic. Atheism had been presented to me as just as much a matter of faith as Theism.

But when I thought about it, I realized that it’s not. It’s a false dichotomy. It is not a statement of faith to say that something for which there is no evidence does not exist. It’s the Null Hypothesis. If you want to prove that something is true, you have to disprove the hypothesis that it isn’t.

So, I stopped hiding behind “I don’t know” and accepted that I simply don’t believe that there is a god or gods.

256 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:37:48am

re: #255 GeneJockey

In the end, it’s all semantics. You believe what you believe. Atheist or agnostic are just words.

As long as we use my semantics. LOL

257 GeneJockey  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:40:34am

re: #256 Tim TeaBro

As long as we use my semantics. LOL

BURN, HERETIC!!!!!
//

258 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 9:47:38am

DRINK!

I’ve found a new elixer to covet when the adorable Wifey gets her Black Friday on.

259 Lidane  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:01:08am

Happy Thanksgivukkah, Lizards! I hope your day is filled with good food, good times, and good people. :)

260 Bear  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:09:36am

Happy Thanksgiving to all, though for turkeys it is a sad day. Hope all of you don’t “pig out” too much before the pie arrives at the table. Not enough room for pie then go run around the block a couple times.

261 Stanley Sea  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:21:48am

holy fail

262 GeneJockey  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:22:12am

re: #260 Bear

Happy Thanksgiving to all, though for turkeys it is a sad day. Hope all of you don’t “pig out” too much before the pie arrives at the table. Not enough room for pie then go run around the block a couple times.

“I’ll have mine later” was my Mother’s motto. Or at least one of the things she said most often.

263 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:24:42am

Wingnuts will be delighted to know that Angola is officially a socialist country, at least the government is. The ruling party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA in Portuguese), started as a Moscow affiliated guerrilla group during the colonial war against the Portuguese. After the Portuguese left in the 70s, MPLA defeated its rivals and maintained power with massive aid from the USSR and, especially, Cuba. MPLA abandoned Marxist-Leninist ideology only after the end of the Cold War and adopted social democracy as its official position. A civil war against the rival UNITA faction continued until 2002. Note the hammer and sickle motif of the Angolan flag.
If the right is pleased with this alleged action by Angolan pinkos , they would have been delighted with Albanian leader Enver Hoxha. In 1967, Hoxha ordered the destruction of all the country’s mosques, and the arrest of all Muslim clergy.
They would not be so pleased of course that he ordered the same for churches and priests and declared the country the world’s first atheist state. Hoxha was a fanatical communist, so extreme that he broke with the nearby USSR and aligned with Maoist China, then rejected the Chinese for their impurity in the 70s and went it alone with his own brand of communism. The communist regime collapsed in a matter of days at the end of the Cold War and was officially abolished in 1991.

264 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:31:05am

Husband just started perusing the “History of Illuminated Manuscripts” book.

All I’m hearing is: “wow. Wow. WOW!”

:D

265 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:32:59am

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Because of various commitments we celebrated Thanksgiving yesterday at my mom’s in Granbury. There were about 30 people there, including a couple of new babies since last year. There was also a tinge of sadness, since this was the first Thanksgiving in my already long life without my grandmother, who died last year at the age of 105.
Grandma was there in spirit, literally so in the form of the many recipes she had accumulated over the years.

266 Tim TeaBro  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:33:57am

DEEP-FRIED AMERICA ON A STICK
THE TERROR AND DELIGHT OF THE WISCONSIN STATE FAIR IN PORTRAITS

267 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 28, 2013 10:36:02am

So, the wingnuts cheer the Russian dictator, devour Kremlin propaganda as Gospel, and, now, we see them enthusiastically (if mistakenly) support the suppression of religion by a Russian satellite regime.
My, my, this is not your father’s right wing, folks.


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