About President Obama Shaking Raul Castro’s Hand…

Famous handshakes throughout history
Gus
History • Views: 56,627

Some hand shakes and other hair raising associations through the years.

Margaret Thatcher and Robert Mugabe
Also see
Other U.S. Presidents and Political Leaders Shaking Hands With Commies and Evildoers

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445 comments
1 erik_t  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:28:06pm

Implicit in all of this fauxrage, of course, is the idea that one must never, ever converse or be polite to those who sometimes oppose you or stand opposite you.

They are the enemy and they must be always shunned and eventually destroyed. Black is black. White is white.

Looks just like congress.

2 PhillyPretzel  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:28:53pm

Does the RWNJ understand the term “photo op?” Photos like these are taken every time world leaders and other famous/infamous people meet.

3 freetoken  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:29:50pm

Is this where we all go running, crying out ” LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! LEPER!! UNCLEAN!! ”
?????

4 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:29:55pm

The Rumsfeld one is kind of disgusting.

5 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:29:59pm

One thing - I’m pretty sure the Right wouldn’t mind Kissinger shaking Pinochet’s hand. They love them some Pinochet.

6 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:41:44pm

Here’s another photo to add to the list— Eisenhower and Franco in 1959:

historiasiglo20.org

7 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:42:54pm

re: #6 Lidane

Here’s another photo to add to the list— Eisenhower and Franco in 1959:

historiasiglo20.org

Not Eisenhower! //

8 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:45:45pm

Wish I could find one of Putin and Castro.

9 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:46:17pm

re: #6 Lidane

Here’s another photo to add to the list— Eisenhower and Franco in 1959:

historiasiglo20.org

Embracing!

10 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:47:09pm

You think Bank mergers are bad?

Sysco merger will give company control of 1/4 of U.S. Foodservice supply industry

11 kerFuFFler  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:47:27pm

Great selection of counterexamples! Too bad wingnuts are immune to having their opinions change when presented with contrary evidence. Case in point, they still joke about Obama needing a teleprompter to eke out a complete sentence in spite of numerous successful debates and Q&A sessions where he extemporizes adroitly.

12 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:47:39pm

So Pres Obama was being a diplomatic adult rather than a pout-raged child? This is what adults do on the international stage, and it is expected, no matter what one thinks of the other’s policies and ideology.

And it wasn’t even Fidel, but his less rigidly ideological brother who is already on the road to loosening things up in Cuba.

Now, if we could just get US sanctions off Cuba and allow some trade to go on just 90 miles away, both we and the Cuban people would benefit. If Pres Obama could accomplish this, it would add to his legacy.

It’s a shame we’re the only country in the world that does not allow unfettered travel to the island. And wouldn’t it be better to trade with them, rather than try to keep them continually struggling for goods?

We are going to need more doctors in the US and until we start training more of our own, Cuba graduates plenty of them. We can get them up to speed for our own needs. Cuba has always sent drs where they are needed.

‘Castrocare’ Divides Doctors In Cuba, Brazil

npr.org

13 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:48:18pm

The righties have no problem with Franco.

14 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:50:11pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

The righties have no problem with Franco.

They loves them some authoritarian dictators, just so long as they’re on the side of “freedom.”

15 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:50:28pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

The righties have no problem with Franco.

They love them some Pinochet, too.

16 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:50:34pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

The righties have no problem with Franco.

Santorum’s campaign is pure Falangism. I wouldn’t be surprised if he burns candles for Francisco daily.

17 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:51:38pm

Ambulance company serving six states shuts down without notice, screwing customers and employees

“The unfortunate thing was lack of notice,” an ambulance service director for a medical center in Parkersburg, W.Va., said. “They closed up shop on Friday, and people were scrambling to get to their appointments all weekend, plus early this week.”

Those workers who did show up for work over the weekend either heard the news from colleagues or realized it when faced with locked doors.

First Med reportedly started calling many dispatchers in several cities on Friday and Saturday and told them to begin shutting things down and to not take any calls for emergency transports. Anyone in the middle of a shift was told to just go home.

“We didn’t know what to do,” an emergency medical technician in West Virginia said. “They told us to turn our truck in, to turn our equipment in. That was it,” he said. “It was done so shadily and so behind closed doors.”

Free markets! Capitalism!!

Also, if you think it’s only random shady companies who do this, recall the Mitt Romney campaign shutting down workers credit cards before they could even pay for a ride home on ELECTION NIGHT.

18 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:52:14pm

This is already climbing the LGF Top Tweeted Articles list.

19 bubba zanetti  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:54:40pm
20 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:55:19pm

Oh, no! Not Dad, too!

George H.W. Bush joins Twitter, praises Mandela

usatoday.com

“The newest voice on Twitter is a veteran statesman: former president George H.W. Bush.

“For his first tweet, Bush praised Nelson Mandela: “Barbara and I wish we could have joined the U.S. delegation honoring President Mandela today. He, and his countrymen, are in our prayers.”

“Bush, 89, could not make the long plane ride to South Africa.”

21 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:55:59pm
22 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:56:17pm

re: #18 wrenchwench

This is already climbing the LGF Top Tweeted Articles list.

Do I get a free pizza? //

23 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:56:30pm

re: #21 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Who the hell CARES?!?!?!

24 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:57:08pm

re: #21 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The Nuge stands by his endorsement of Wang, Dang, Sweet Poontang,

He is also neither dead nor in jail.

25 PeterWolf  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:57:10pm

But…..but…..but…..but….Cuba’s a special bogeyman and Obama’s a special president!

26 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:57:12pm

re: #21 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Go to jail, Ted.

27 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:57:36pm

re: #26 Justanotherhuman

Go to jail, Ted.

Do not pass GO. Do not collect any guns.

28 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:57:49pm

re: #16 William Barnett-Lewis

Santorum’s campaign is pure Falangism. I wouldn’t be surprised if he burns candles for Francisco daily.

While humming “Cara al Sol”.

29 erik_t  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:58:00pm

re: #23 Eclectic Cyborg

Who the hell CARES?!?!?!

I care more about figuring out ways to creatively clonk Raul Castro in the head (which, frankly, made me giggle) than I do about a washed-up nutcase third-rate rock starlet.

30 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:58:27pm

re: #20 Justanotherhuman

31 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:58:37pm

re: #17 Eclectic Cyborg

Ambulance company serving six states shuts down without notice, screwing customers and employees

Free markets! Capitalism!!

Also, if you think it’s only random shady companies who do this, recall the Mitt Romney campaign shutting down workers credit cards before they could even pay for a ride home on ELECTION NIGHT.

Lawsuits are being written this moment, no doubt.

32 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:58:58pm

re: #22 Gus

Do I get a free pizza? //

Yes, but not delivered. When can you be here? //

33 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 2:59:45pm

re: #32 wrenchwench

Yes, but not delivered. When can you be here? //

72 hours maybe?

34 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:00:48pm

re: #33 Gus

72 hours maybe?

SARC TAGS!! >>>>> //

35 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:00:51pm

re: #31 Justanotherhuman

Lawsuits are being written this moment, no doubt.

Invisible Finger of the markets.

36 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:01:03pm

Circular firing squad ahoy!

mediamatters.org

37 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:01:40pm

re: #29 erik_t

I care more about figuring out ways to creatively clonk Raul Castro in the head

America is not yet ready for a ninja President.

38 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:03:17pm

re: #37 The Ghost of a Flea

America is not yet ready for a ninja President.

Or maybe we’ve had one since 2008 and we just don’t realize it.

It would explain all the self-inflicted wounds from the RWNJs.

39 blueraven  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:04:25pm

Budget deal TBA right away

40 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:05:28pm

re: #4 wrenchwench

Rumsfeld is disgusting.

I touched that comment of your up just a little.

41 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:05:51pm

re: #38 Lidane

Or maybe we’ve had one since 2008 and we just don’t realize it.

It would explain all the self-inflicted wounds from the RWNJs.

If you slow the footage down enough, you can actually see Obama using pressure point strikes to alter Todd Akin’s ki flow, creating an imbalance that results in stupid opinions about rape.

42 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:06:03pm


I’m not clicking through to find out why ‘made a burrito’ is in quotes like that.

43 blueraven  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:06:12pm

re: #39 blueraven

Budget deal TBA right away

Awaiting News conference w Ryan/Murray

44 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:06:38pm

Good news for some in Ohio.

Ohio EMS provider hires former First Med employees

ems1.com

45 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:07:17pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

The righties have no problem with Franco.

There is a serious Franco cult at Free Republic. I once attracted a major shit storm there by suggesting that Franco was “not exactly Mr. Nice Guy.” No, those were my exact words, I did not call him a fascist, a mass murderer, or a protege of Hitler (all of which were true) but literally suggested that he was not a nice guy. They reacted exactly as though I had blasphemed their deity, which is probably exactly how they felt.

46 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:07:22pm

re: #10 Eclectic Cyborg

You think Bank mergers are bad?

Sysco merger will give company control of 1/4 of U.S. Foodservice supply industry

The Monopoly game goes on.

I don’t seem to be able to get past GO to pick up my token $200.

47 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:11:12pm

Ever had one of those long plane rides where the people sitting next to you talk your ear off?

Yeah, so has Ted Cruz:

48 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:12:26pm
49 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:13:15pm

re: #48 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Photoshop. That’s Nong Duc Manh. news.bbc.co.uk

50 blueraven  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:13:33pm

re: #48 darthstar

[Embedded content]

that has to be shopped!

51 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:14:04pm
52 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:14:52pm

re: #49 Gus

Photoshop. That’s Nong Duc Manh. news.bbc.co.uk

I. Don’t. Care. I’m just having fun.

53 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:15:48pm

re: #50 blueraven

that has to be shopped!

Yes, but somewhere there is an old Kodachrome of his dad in that pose.

54 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:15:53pm

re: #52 darthstar

I. Don’t. Care. I’m just having fun.

Sorry, but that kind of photoshopping is dishonest and obnoxious.

55 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:16:20pm

And now… GODZILLA!

What, again?

Youtube Video

56 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:16:42pm

re: #46 ObserverArt

The Monopoly game goes on.

I don’t seem to be able to get past GO to pick up my token $200.

It’s like the companies pass GO and we LOSE $200.

Hey there’s an idea…Republican Monopoly!

57 Ace-o-aces  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:16:54pm

I’m shocked. You would think Arafat would show better judgement!

58 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:17:06pm

re: #39 blueraven

Budget deal TBA right away

Wingnut heads asploding not far behind.

59 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:19:34pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

Square/Cube Law Enforcement Alerted!

60 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:20:22pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

And now… GODZILLA!

What, again?

[Embedded content]

The giant lizard movie should come from Lion’s Gate Films.

61 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:20:52pm

re: #58 Targetpractice

Wingnut heads asploding not far behind.

They’ll scream, but I don’t think they’ve got enough to block this one. Too many in Congress are just too tired of the budget wars to have another battle. It’s also being announced right near Christmas to make those who oppose it look like the Grinch.

62 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:20:57pm

re: #58 Targetpractice

Wingnut heads asploding not far behind.

Moonbats too. It’s going to be one of those deals that nobody likes, but which they’ll try and force through to avoid future shutdowns.

63 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:21:08pm

re: #50 blueraven

that has to be shopped!

Image: Nong-Duc-Manh-and-Castro.jpg

Original is on the right.

64 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:21:50pm
65 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:21:54pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

And now… GODZILLA!

What, again?

[Embedded content]

Have Matthew Broderick squashed like a pancake in the first five minutes and I’ll consider Hollywood’s debt repaid to the franchise.

66 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:26:23pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

So it’s Pacific Rim without the giant mechs or Del Toro’s campy humor?

Alrighty then.

67 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:26:45pm

Bipartisan Budget Said to Ease Automatic Spending Cuts

bloomberg.com

“The compromise, worked out between chief negotiators Senator Patty Murray and Representative Paul Ryan, would set spending at about $1 trillion in 2014, higher than the $967 billion required in a 2011 budget accord, according to an aide close to the talks who requested anonymity to discuss the deal.

(snip)

“The main components of the deal include selling off government-owned airwaves, raising the contributions that federal employees make to their retirement plans and increasing premiums for pensions backed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., according to the congressional aide.

“Republicans are hoping to sell the deal to wary rank-and-file by emphasizing that it will reduce the deficit by an additional $20 billion in the form of increased fees. Those include raising the fees paid by airline passengers, or boosting the so-called Sept. 11 security fee on airline tickets. “

68 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:26:54pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

They’ll scream, but I don’t think they’ve got enough to block this one. Too many in Congress are just too tired of the budget wars to have another battle. It’s also being announced right near Christmas to make those who oppose it look like the Grinch.

We told ourselves that back in October, that the dangers of a shutdown would mean the establishment would come to the table and work out some manner of compromise. Until the votes are actually counted, I don’t put anything past them at this point.

69 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:28:29pm

Of course it’s satire…that’s why it’s so believable.

70 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:28:44pm

re: #68 Targetpractice

We told ourselves that back in October, that the dangers of a shutdown would mean the establishment would come to the table and work out some manner of compromise. Until the votes are actually counted, I don’t put anything past them at this point.

Back then they had all August to stoke the rage and they caught the House leadership cold. This time the leadership is aware of the threat and the wingnuts have had a failure to take the wind out of their sails.

71 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:28:48pm

Great. Now it’s being passed around as real.

72 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:29:19pm
73 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:29:26pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but that kind of photoshopping is dishonest and obnoxious.

It’s just someone’s tweet. I’ll take your downding with me to my grave happily.

74 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:30:03pm

re: #71 Gus

Great. Now it’s being passed around as real.

Shit happens.

75 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:31:19pm

re: #67 Justanotherhuman

Bipartisan Budget Said to Ease Automatic Spending Cuts

bloomberg.com

“The compromise, worked out between chief negotiators Senator Patty Murray and Representative Paul Ryan, would set spending at about $1 trillion in 2014, higher than the $967 billion required in a 2011 budget accord, according to an aide close to the talks who requested anonymity to discuss the deal.

(snip)

“The main components of the deal include selling off government-owned airwaves, raising the contributions that federal employees make to their retirement plans and increasing premiums for pensions backed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., according to the congressional aide.

“Republicans are hoping to sell the deal to wary rank-and-file by emphasizing that it will reduce the deficit by an additional $20 billion in the form of increased fees. Those include raising the fees paid by airline passengers, or boosting the so-called Sept. 11 security fee on airline tickets. “

Note: Increasing federal fees is a common tactic in these budget compromises. It is done because raising a ‘security fee’ is not counted as a pledge violating tax increase by Grover Norquist, and getting him on board a deal would greatly enhance its chances of passage.

76 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:32:29pm
77 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:32:58pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Note: Increasing federal fees is a common tactic in these budget compromises. It is done because raising a ‘security fee’ is not counted as a pledge violating tax increase by Grover Norquist, and getting him on board a deal would greatly enhance its chances of passage.

I think Grover is over.

78 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:33:05pm

re: #76 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Mmm hmm.

79 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:34:39pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

Back then they had all August to stoke the rage and they caught the House leadership cold. This time the leadership is aware of the threat and the wingnuts have had a failure to take the wind out of their sails.

It’s largely going to come down to whether McConnell gives it his seal of approval or not. That it was worked out by Ryan says that it has the House leadership’s approval, but the backbenchers who are facing contentious primary fights might decide that they need to prove their “conservativeness.”

80 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:37:52pm

re: #69 darthstar

Of course it’s satire…that’s why it’s so believable.

[Embedded content]

Man, I hate the Daily Currant. Their sole reason for being is click-bait and fooling the gullible (present company not included).

81 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:38:03pm

re: #8 Eclectic Cyborg

By your command:

Image: mdf139876.jpg

82 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:38:09pm

BBIAB

83 blueraven  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:38:18pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Note: Increasing federal fees is a common tactic in these budget compromises. It is done because raising a ‘security fee’ is not counted as a pledge violating tax increase by Grover Norquist, and getting him on board a deal would greatly enhance its chances of passage.

Heritage and Koch Brothers hate it.

84 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:39:48pm

re: #83 blueraven

Heritage and Koch Brother hate it.

They’re reacting prematurely, and I suspect an electoral reason. But if you’ll please excuse me, I need to put lights on a Christmas tree.

85 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:41:01pm
86 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:43:36pm

re: #67 Justanotherhuman

Bipartisan Budget Said to Ease Automatic Spending Cuts

bloomberg.com

“The compromise, worked out between chief negotiators Senator Patty Murray and Representative Paul Ryan, would set spending at about $1 trillion in 2014, higher than the $967 billion required in a 2011 budget accord, according to an aide close to the talks who requested anonymity to discuss the deal.

87 blueraven  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:44:13pm

Oh FFS

Fox Special Report spent 2 minutes on the Mandela memorial and went straight to THE HANDSHAKE!!

88 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:44:27pm
89 Lidane  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:49:36pm

re: #88 Kragar

90 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:49:51pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

They’re reacting prematurely, and I suspect an electoral reason. But if you’ll please excuse me, I need to put lights on a Christmas tree.

Be careful with the Mao ornament.

91 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:50:58pm
92 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:51:05pm
93 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:51:30pm

re: #87 blueraven

Oh FFS

Fox Special Report spent 2 minutes on the Mandela memorial and went straight to THE HANDSHAKE!!

My surprise, etc.

94 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:53:11pm

That First Med ambulance service has been in trouble for a long time. A quick look at it on the NC Secy of State site:

secretary.state.nc.us

It was suspended in 2010.

The President had the same name as a local Fayetteville dr.

95 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:54:11pm

re: #87 blueraven

Oh FFS

Fox Special Report spent 2 minutes on the Mandela memorial and went straight to THE HANDSHAKE!!

Heck. Earlier today John McCain said it was like Chamberlain shaking Hitler’s hand. No joke.

96 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:54:17pm

re: #92 Kragar

The budget deal has just enough fucking over of poor people to satisfy the GOP’s Christian evangelical base.

Fucking the poor and no tax increase on the wealthiest rich people in the history of history? It’s a Christmas Miracle!!
////

97 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:54:52pm
98 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:55:21pm
99 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 3:59:15pm

McCain went on to say Obama should get off his lawn, and added that his election campaign in 2008 “…would have worked, too, if it weren’t for you meddlesome kids and your stupid dog!”

100 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:00:44pm

SoundCloud

101 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:00:57pm

Derp.

102 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:01:35pm

re: #98 Gus

[Embedded content]

Chamberlain gets a bad rap, but a lot of it came from his contemporary political rivals than a realistic look at what he did and what it accomplished. The reality is that, in 1938, Britain was in no position to make war on what was becoming the Axis Powers. Really, the only person who believed that he was ready for war was Hitler, and history has shown that the man was militarily incompetent.

103 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:02:46pm

re: #102 Targetpractice

Chamberlain gets a bad rap, but a lot of it came from his contemporary political rivals than a realistic look at what he did and what it accomplished. The reality is that, in 1938, Britain was in no position to make war on what was becoming the Axis Powers. Really, the only person who believed that he was ready for war was Hitler, and history has shown that the man was militarily incompetent.

That and Raul Castro is no Hitler.

104 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:03:20pm

re: #102 Targetpractice

Chamberlain gets a bad rap, but a lot of it came from his contemporary political rivals than a realistic look at what he did and what it accomplished. The reality is that, in 1938, Britain was in no position to make war on what was becoming the Axis Powers. Really, the only person who believed that he was ready for war was Hitler, and history has shown that the man was militarily incompetent.

“Und it vould haf vorked, too, if it veren’t for you meddlesome Americans und your stupid Stalin!”

105 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:03:56pm

re: #103 Gus

That and Raul Castro is no Hitler.

Of course not. Everybody knows Obama is Hitler.
//

106 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:05:06pm

re: #105 makeitstop

Of course not. Everybody knows Obama is Hitler.
//

Yeah, but Fidel Castro is 1959’s New Hitler, and Raul is his brother and successor, so he’s the New Old New Hitler, so it’s like Hitler holding his own hand!
////

107 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:08:01pm

The “Reality based community” still busy creating alternate reality.
Dan Rather on The Difference Between Him and Lara Logan: My Story Was True

dailykos.com

108 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:09:51pm

Noun, verb, Chamberlain, noun.

109 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:10:56pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

The “Reality based community” still busy creating alternate reality.
Dan Rather on The Difference Between Him and Lara Logan: My Story Was True

dailykos.com

Nope.

110 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:11:57pm

Rubio already opposes the budget deal.

111 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:12:29pm

re: #110 Gus

Rubio already opposes the budget deal.

“I’m conservative! Really!”

112 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:15:17pm

Roe at Risk: Fighting for Reproductive Justice

VIEW ON WEB

NOW

113 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:16:07pm

re: #109 Gus

Nope.

Maybe. Efforts to rehabilitate Dan Rather happen 2-3 times a year, it might happen eventually.

114 klys  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:16:16pm

I think dinner tonight will be potato-leek soup with chicken sausages.

115 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:17:55pm

AUDIO IS seriously fucked

116 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:18:31pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

Maybe. Efforts to rehabilitate Dan Rather happen 2-3 times a year, it might happen eventually.

Well. Some people actually think the Killian documents weren’t forgeries. Not much can be done about that much like all conspiracy theories.

117 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:18:55pm


The first one is all you need.

118 Egregious Philbin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:24:31pm

Derp! Derp, Derp Derp! Benghazi!

(Derp)

119 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:24:39pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

Oh no… there goes … San Francisco?

And that music at the beginning…. sounds like the soundtrack to 2001 A Space Odyssey when the TMA is shown

120 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:26:01pm

re: #118 Egregious Philbin

Derp! Derp, Derp Derp! Benghazi!

I heard this to the tune of “Tequila” in my head

121 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:26:37pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

The “Reality based community” still busy creating alternate reality.
Dan Rather on The Difference Between Him and Lara Logan: My Story Was True

dailykos.com

He’s the wrong guy to make the point, but it’s a valid point. Benghazi is totally made-up nonsense bullshit, with no actual blame attaching to Obama at all—in fact, blame going to the GOP for cutting funding for embassy security.

With Bush’s record during Vietnam, it’s clear that he—like many others—got a soft assignment and didn’t treat it that seriously, skipping out on it to go campaign, and there’s very legitimate questions about whether or not he actually served as he should. I don’t think that whether he served as he should is that important a question, but it’s not a totally made up, fictitious, nutso issue the way Benghazi is.

It helps to read beyond the headlines.

122 erik_t  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:29:27pm

re: #121 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Also, frankly, we should be holding Logan to a higher standard. To do otherwise would be to suggest that CBS did not and should not have learned something from Rather’s cock-up.

123 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:29:47pm

re: #102 Targetpractice

Chamberlain gets a bad rap, but a lot of it came from his contemporary political rivals than a realistic look at what he did and what it accomplished. The reality is that, in 1938, Britain was in no position to make war on what was becoming the Axis Powers. Really, the only person who believed that he was ready for war was Hitler, and history has shown that the man was militarily incompetent.

But Hitler wasn’t really ready, and Germany would have been in a worse position than it was a year later had the balloon gone up in 1938. Germany would have still been blockaded with the Kriegsmarine at an even worse force balance against the Royal Navy, and would have had to devote large resources to guarding its border with either Poland, or France depending on where it planned to strike next.

Germany would also have been without the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, and thus would have had the possibility of the Soviet Union as an enemy to watch out for.

124 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:31:15pm

re: #1 erik_t

Implicit in all of this fauxrage, of course, is the idea that one must never, ever converse or be polite to those who sometimes oppose you or stand opposite you.

They are the enemy and they must be always shunned and eventually destroyed.

There’s a word for that: stupid.

125 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:32:04pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

I’m a little surprised, actually, because Rather is actually admitting that “the process was flawed.” He’ll probably never admit his report relied on fake documents, but that’s more than I’ve seen him admit before.

126 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:33:13pm

re: #124 chadu

There’s a word for that: >stupid.

Actually, ‘fanatical’ is a more descriptive term.

127 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:33:22pm

re: #30 wrenchwench

That is cool.

128 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:34:08pm

re: #122 erik_t

Also, frankly, we should be holding Logan to a higher standard. To do otherwise would be to suggest that CBS did not and should not have learned something from Rather’s cock-up.

The whole Rather story irritated me because it was just idiotic anyway. Who cares if he skyved off during his guard service, it was a long time ago. I don’t get this fascination with what people did in their twenties as somehow being ultra-indicative. I am very little like I was in my early 20s, like, I have exact opposite attributes in many ways. It was not a substantial critique, it was a critique of something explicitly insubstantial—Bush as somehow knowledgeable about war and the military—and elevated that issue far above what it should have been.

129 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:34:40pm

Other U.S. Presidents and Political Leaders Shaking Hands With Commies and Evildoers

no, see, you’ve got it backwards:

the True Conservatives have reverse cooties and purify all they touch

THE OBAMA IS BAD BY NATURE AND EVERYBODY HE TOUCHES WILL BE INFECTED

see christie, chris, former conservative icon now condemned as an evil obamahugger

130 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:35:35pm

re: #125 Charles Johnson

I’m a little surprised, actually, because Rather is actually admitting that “the process was flawed.” He’ll probably never admit his report relied on fake documents, but that’s more than I’ve seen him admit before.

“The process of being uncritical of documents that happen to say exactly what I wanted to hear was flawed”

131 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:36:29pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but that kind of photoshopping is dishonest and obnoxious.

Eh, It was funny.

If it has been used for anything other than a laugh, I’d agree with you it was dishonest.

But amongst the Lizardim, a funny.

132 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:36:46pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Stopping Hitler getting Checkoslovakia somehow is probably the best war-game scenario to prevent WWII, but how do you do that?

133 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:38:12pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

Godzilla?

Youtube Video

134 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:38:20pm

re: #128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Exactly, and that’s why the docs actually were important to the story. Without them, it was not really significant news. But if the docs were real, they would have shown Bush’s superiors knew about him shirking his duty and deliberately covered it up because of his privileged position - and I think that would have been a much more damaging story for Bush.

Of course, they weren’t real.

135 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:39:23pm

Other U.S. Presidents and Political Leaders Shaking Hands With Commies and Evildoers

yet another example of the touching faith that rational people have in the idea that something can be accomplished by logical argument

136 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:40:48pm

re: #128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The whole Rather story irritated me because it was just idiotic anyway. Who cares if he skyved off during his guard service, it was a long time ago. I don’t get this fascination with what people did in their twenties as somehow being ultra-indicative. I am very little like I was in my early 20s, like, I have exact opposite attributes in many ways. It was not a substantial critique, it was a critique of something explicitly insubstantial—Bush as somehow knowledgeable about war and the military—and elevated that issue far above what it should have been.

I can understand why some wanted the story to be true and to be out there. This was back when the Dems were overemphasizing Kerry’s service, and in addition to the Swift Boat Liars For Money, I was hearing some folks on the Right claim that Bush flying Thunderchiefs for the Texas ANG was more dangerous than Kerry being shot at by the Vietcong. It rankled more than a little.

137 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:41:00pm

re: #130 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“The process of being uncritical of documents that happen to say exactly what I wanted to hear was flawed”

To this day I’m amazed that nobody saw how fake those documents were before the report aired.

Not so amazed that some commenters at Daily Kos are still dead-ending it, though. Ideology can lead people to fool themselves.

138 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:42:04pm

re: #132 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Stopping Hitler getting Checkoslovakia somehow is probably the best war-game scenario to prevent WWII, but how do you do that?

You mean, because Czechoslovakia is on the OTHER side of Germany from France and England, and they’d have had to go through Germany to stop them?

Strongly worded letter, of course!

139 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:42:08pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

But Hitler wasn’t really ready, and Germany would have been in a worse position than it was a year later had the balloon gone up in 1938. Germany would have still been blockaded with the Kriegsmarine at an even worse force balance against the Royal Navy, and would have had to devote large resources to guarding its border with either Poland, or France depending on where it planned to strike next.

Germany would also have been without the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, and thus would have had the possibility of the Soviet Union as an enemy to watch out for.

Britain and France were on roughly the same level as Germany at the time, relying on a mixture of WWI leftovers and pre-WWII designs. It was only with the acquisition of the Skoda factories that the Germans were able to put large numbers of more advanced tanks into service. And Poland could have found itself a reluctant ally to Germany, if only because the alternative was finding itself under Stalin’s boot. And with the ongoing Spanish Civil War, men and materiel that would have been spent on the Western front would have instead still been involved in the fighting there.

140 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:42:42pm

re: #132 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Stopping Hitler getting Checkoslovakia somehow is probably the best war-game scenario to prevent WWII, but how do you do that?

Oh, don’t spell Czechoslovakia like that around Dr. Lizardo! Besides, it’s the Czech Republic now anyway. : )

141 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:43:29pm

re: #132 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Stopping Hitler getting Czechoslovakia somehow is probably the best war-game scenario to prevent WWII, but how do you do that?

By the fall of 1938, a major war was inevitable. But if Hitler had to physically conquer Czechoslovakia, the Wehrmacht would have taken serious losses assaulting fortified positions head-on, and then would have to decide where to strike next with fewer tanks, less capacity to build them (the Czech production lines likely having been damaged or destroyed), and with both Poland and France alert and mobilized, whichever of them was the next target.

And speaking of Francisco Franco, it is interesting to speculate what would have happened to the German troops still in Spain in the event of war in 1938.

142 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:43:35pm

Help.

143 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:43:39pm

Getting back to the point of this thread, somewhere there are pictures of Rafael Cruz Sr. and Fidel Castro. I await their discovery with glee.

144 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:43:41pm

re: #125 Charles Johnson

I’m a little surprised, actually, because Rather is actually admitting that “the process was flawed.” He’ll probably never admit his report relied on fake documents, but that’s more than I’ve seen him admit before.

I admit the documents were faked, but I think they were reporting something that actually happened.

Does that make me a conspiracy theorist?

145 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:43:41pm

re: #134 Charles Johnson

Exactly, and that’s why the docs actually were important to the story. Without them, it was not really significant news. But if the docs were real, they would have shown Bush’s superiors knew about him shirking his duty and deliberately covered it up because of his privileged position - and I think that would have been a much more damaging story for Bush.

Of course, they weren’t real.

And I also think even that scenario shouldn’t have been damaging for Bush. The kids of the privileged get treated like that, without them asking for it. Sure, Bush didn’t volunteer for Vietnam. Kerry did. That was established already—whether Bush also sucked at not volunteering is a pretty minor issue. Really, I think, the ‘left’ was just so gobsmacked by the really unrecepedentedly shameful ‘Swiftboat’ campaign that they were reeling and thought it’d help.

The problem is that, obviously, Kerry was ‘braver’ than Bush in the Vietnam era. His military record is miles above Bush’s, in that he was active combat, successfully led men in battle, and was decorated for bravery. But still, the right wing wasn’t going to let him have any of that. It was a disgraceful event that I really think, more than Obama’s election, was the beginning of the absolute devastation of the moral center of the right-wing, when they decided to smear Kerry—and by association, other veterans—like that.

146 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:44:57pm

re: #125 Charles Johnson

I’m a little surprised, actually, because Rather is actually admitting that “the process was flawed.” He’ll probably never admit his report relied on fake documents, but that’s more than I’ve seen him admit before.

Good point, I think you’re right about that. I can’t recall him ever acknowledging any mistakes, the best I can think of is him saying something about the authenticity of the documents being unverifiable either way.

147 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:46:24pm

re: #128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The whole Rather story irritated me because it was just idiotic anyway. Who cares if he skyved off during his guard service, it was a long time ago. I don’t get this fascination with what people did in their twenties as somehow being ultra-indicative. I am very little like I was in my early 20s, like, I have exact opposite attributes in many ways. It was not a substantial critique, it was a critique of something explicitly insubstantial—Bush as somehow knowledgeable about war and the military—and elevated that issue far above what it should have been.

Its importance was heightened in the context of John Kerry’s swiftboating.

148 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:48:58pm


This-the message has to get thru to those who can’t or won’t speak up

149 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:49:50pm


remember when?

150 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:49:54pm

re: #139 Targetpractice

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

Harry Turtledove expertly addresses these scenarios, including a German-Polish alliance, in his alt-history series The War that Came Early. The premise is that WW2 starts at the time of the Munich Crisis.

151 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:51:42pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Actually, ‘fanatical’ is a more descriptive term.

Fair enough.

152 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:52:16pm

In response to the slime spread about Kerry. The 2004 Republican convention. Remember these?

Purple Heart Band Aid

That is when I really started to see real hate begin to creep in to the Republican party. Those stupid bandages were a dig at all Purple Heart recipients.

153 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:52:16pm

re: #147 Decatur Deb

Its importance was heightened in the context of John Kerry’s swiftboating.

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

154 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:52:52pm
155 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:53:51pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home?

Yeah, they would have smeared him just the same. The whole ‘he threw his medals’ silliness was just the cherry on top. The real thing they furiously attacked was his actual service record. And it was a political, strategic decision to do so, and an absolutely shameful and pathetic one.

156 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:54:48pm

re: #128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The whole Rather story irritated me because it was just idiotic anyway. Who cares if he skyved off during his guard service, it was a long time ago. I don’t get this fascination with what people did in their twenties as somehow being ultra-indicative. I am very little like I was in my early 20s, like, I have exact opposite attributes in many ways. It was not a substantial critique, it was a critique of something explicitly insubstantial—Bush as somehow knowledgeable about war and the military—and elevated that issue far above what it should have been.

Obdi, I must disagree.

This was a dude who avoided the Vietnam draft by going into the Air National Guard, and then saying “fuck y’all” to his responsibilities.

So, I care if he “skyved off during his guard service”.

157 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:54:49pm
158 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:55:00pm

re: #1 erik_t

Implicit in all of this fauxrage, of course, is the idea that one must never, ever converse or be polite to those who sometimes oppose you or stand opposite you.

They are the enemy and they must be always shunned and eventually destroyed. Black is black. White is white.

Looks just like congress.

zero-sum thinking leads to mental illness, IMHO

I call it zealotry.

159 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:56:26pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

He would still have been ‘neutralized’. Since the Clinton impeachment, the only restraints on political gutslitting have been money and imagination. Viz Tammy Duckworth.

160 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:56:47pm

re: #134 Charles Johnson

Exactly, and that’s why the docs actually were important to the story. Without them, it was not really significant news. But if the docs were real, they would have shown Bush’s superiors knew about him shirking his duty and deliberately covered it up because of his privileged position - and I think that would have been a much more damaging story for Bush.

Of course, they weren’t real.

I think the situation happened, and the real docs got vaporized.

The fake docs were a massive problem.

161 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:57:04pm

re: #156 chadu

Obdi, I must disagree.

This was a dude who avoided the Vietnam draft by going into the Air National Guard, and then saying “fuck y’all” to his responsibilities.

So, >I care if he “skyved off during his guard service”.

I just think shit that happened a long time ago should generally be left there unless it shows some severe mental aberration. It wasn’t news that Bush was a spoiled, privileged dude who had stuff handed to him throughout his life, except for those who had a vested interest in ignoring that and would have also ignored any story about his guard service.

The real issue is that he avoided Vietnam. The mechanics of how that privilege worked out is not really important. It happened because he was privileged and chose not to go, Kerry was privileged and chose to go. That’s the important bit.

162 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:58:06pm

re: #136 GeneJockey

I can understand why some wanted the story to be true and to be out there. This was back when the Dems were overemphasizing Kerry’s service, and in addition to the Swift Boat Liars For Money, I was hearing some folks on the Right claim that Bush flying Thunderchiefs for the Texas ANG was more dangerous than Kerry being shot at by the Vietcong. It rankled more than a little.

OFFS.

Kerry was in-country. Bush was in TX.

OFFS.

163 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:58:12pm
164 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 4:58:37pm

re: #157 Charles Johnson


165 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:00:01pm

re: #137 Charles Johnson

To this day I’m amazed that nobody saw how fake those documents were before the report aired.

Not so amazed that commenters at Daily Kos are still dead-ending it, though. Ideology can lead people to fool themselves.

Seriously, CJ, I believe that shit happened… we just don’t actually have a verifiable paper trail — because there is no paper trail.

166 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:01:42pm

re: #145 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The problem is that, obviously, Kerry was ‘braver’ than Bush in the Vietnam era. His military record is miles above Bush’s, in that he was active combat, successfully led men in battle, and was decorated for bravery. But still, the right wing wasn’t going to let him have any of that. It was a disgraceful event that I really think, more than Obama’s election, was the beginning of the absolute devastation of the moral center of the right-wing, when they decided to smear Kerry—and by association, other veterans—like that.

Word.

167 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:02:18pm

re: #165 chadu

Seriously, CJ, I believe that shit happened… we just don’t actually have a verifiable paper trail — because there is no paper trail.

When I call those commenters dead-enders, it’s because some of them are still insisting the docs were genuine.

168 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:03:15pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home?

NO.

169 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:04:28pm

Ugh. My tweets about Mandela have now attracted a white nationalist type. Blocked and muted.

170 erik_t  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:04:48pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home?

I would argue that Kerry was not vulnerable to being attacked for his war record, regardless of whether or not he took part in wholly legal and reasonable civilian activities after his return from active service.

However, here we are.

171 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:05:55pm

re: #161 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I just think shit that happened a long time ago should generally be left there unless it shows some severe mental aberration. It wasn’t news that Bush was a spoiled, privileged dude who had stuff handed to him throughout his life, except for those who had a vested interest in ignoring that and would have also ignored any story about his guard service.

The real issue is that he avoided Vietnam. The mechanics of how that privileged worked out is not really important. It happened because he was privileged and chose not to go, Kerry was privileged and chose to go. That’s the important bit.

I see what you’re saying, and agree, but the bit that nags me is that he couldn’t even fake adequately the excuse of privilege he chose to use.

172 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:06:42pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

I don’t think it would have mattered. They were going to slime him anyway and in any manner they could.

And, Kerry had every right to say whatever he wanted to about the war. He served in it and that is a hell of a lot more investment than all the chicken hawk bullshit the GOP put out about him.

Remember Johhny McCain had more than a few ex POWs who said he sang like a little birdie when questioned by the Viet Kong. Many have said he did much to cover up his own tracks and by messing with the hunt for POWs that may have had a lot to say about his own questionable record. Was it all true? Who knows, was all the slime about Kerry?

173 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:06:55pm

re: #167 Charles Johnson

When I call those commenters dead-enders, it’s because some of them are still insisting the docs were genuine.

Well, yeah.

174 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:07:12pm

re: #145 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

…snip It was a disgraceful event that I really think, more than Obama’s election, was the beginning of the absolute devastation of the moral center of the right-wing, when they decided to smear Kerry—and by association, other medal-winners—like that.

I forget the sequence, but Saxby Chambliss vs Max Cleland was even more egregious.

175 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:07:30pm

re: #168 chadu

Disagree - i say “yes” because all the attacks focused on the purple hearts. I saw very little on his tossing of the medals, and the silver star was tainted by association with the ‘easy’ purple hearts. Those and the nifty Cambodia shuffle. “He couldn’t have been in Cambodia, that was against the rules.” nevermind the fact there were a lot of border crossings in that war - the Cambodians made frequent complaints about them.

176 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:07:46pm

re: #171 chadu

I see what you’re saying, and agree, but the bit that nags me is that he couldn’t even fake adequately the excuse of privilege he chose to use.

Well, I feel like that truth doesn’t depend on this, either, it’s obvious from the way he shuffled it around and took time off to campaign. It wasn’t something he considered as a priority above the rest of his life. That’s clear.

177 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:09:06pm

re: #137 Charles Johnson

To this day I’m amazed that nobody saw how fake those documents were before the report aired.

Not so amazed that some commenters at Daily Kos are still dead-ending it, though. Ideology can lead people to fool themselves.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Rather wanted them to be true because they fulfilled his view of GWB. Those at DKos who felt the same way likewise wanted them to be true - fake but accurate.

But the fact is that the documents were bogus, and couldn’t and shouldn’t have passed the smell test. CBS got so much of it wrong.

178 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:09:10pm

re: #172 ObserverArt

Remember Johhny McCain had more than a few ex POWs who said he sang like a little birdie when questioned by the Viet Kong. Many have said he did much to cover up his own tracks and by messing with the hunt for POWs that may have had a lot to say about his own questionable record. Was it all true? Who knows, was all the slime about Kerry?

I have always had questions about Mr. McCain, douche-crap fighter pilot POW Senator. They’re complicated.

179 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:09:27pm

re: #162 chadu

OFFS.

Kerry was in-country. Bush was in TX.

OFFS.

Yeah, that’s kind of how I saw it, too. But confirmation bias is a very real thing, and these guys had a lot invested in Bush being a Big, Bad Warrior and Kerry being an effete Boston Liberal Weenie.

To answer Dark’s question, you’re goddam right Kerry would have been attacked. Max Cleland was the test case - a decorated veteran who left a significant part of himself in Vietnam, successfully attacked by a guy who avoided service, for being soft on military issues.

Once Rove knew they could do that to somebody like Cleland, they knew they could attack Kerry in similar fashion.

Now, the Swiftboat Liars would probably have had fewer guys signing up if Kerry hadn’t come out against the war, but they would still have gone after the service as the biggest thing Kerry had over Bush, who was still fairly popular.

180 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:09:35pm

re: #158 FemNaziBitch

zero-sum thinking leads to mental illness, IMHO

I call it zealotry.

It’s absolutism, just as their religious beliefs are. There is no “wiggle room” for any of it because it’s not based on real human values.

181 klys  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:09:43pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

I’m going to turn the question around here: why would it be acceptable to attack someone’s service because they decided, based on that experience, to support efforts to end the war?

182 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:10:10pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

I forget the sequence, but Saxby Chambliss vs Max Cleland was even more egregious.

That add got widely condemned by others in the GOP, but yeah, that was in 2002.

183 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:10:11pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

I don’t think so. AntiVietnam war protesters were common and have since been romanticized in pop culture. I don’t think his anti-war protests were much of a factor.

184 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:10:25pm

re: #169 Charles Johnson

Ugh. My tweets about Mandela have now attracted a white nationalist type. Blocked and muted.

Keep calm and carry on. : )

185 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:11:55pm

re: #182 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

That add got widely condemned by others in the GOP, but yeah, that was in 2002.

Not so widely condemned that it didn’t work.

186 Mentis Fugit  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:12:19pm

re: #106 GeneJockey

Yeah, but Fidel Castro is 1959’s New Hitler, and Raul is his brother and successor, so he’s the New Old New Hitler, so it’s like Hitler holding his own hand!
////

I’ve never understood the concept of a designated Hitler.

187 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:13:34pm

re: #175 kirkspencer

Disagree - i say “yes” because all the attacks focused on the purple hearts. I saw very little on his tossing of the medals, and the silver star was tainted by association with the ‘easy’ purple hearts. Those and the nifty Cambodia shuffle. “He couldn’t have been in Cambodia, that was against the rules.” nevermind the fact there were a lot of border crossings in that war - the Cambodians made frequent complaints about them.

You make excellent points.

And ones that piss me off.

The whole Southeast Asia multi-decade event termed “the Viet Nam War” is full of atrocities/rule-breaking on every level.

I think that’s when people started to wake up. IMAO.

188 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:13:57pm

re: #186 Mentis Fugit

I’ve never understood the concept of a designated Hitler.

Padumpum. *chish*

189 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:14:11pm

re: #178 chadu

I have always had questions about Mr. McCain, douche-crap fighter pilot POW Senator. They’re complicated.

The difference, I think was that McCain didn’t exploit his veteran status and disabilities due to torture (being a POW) during his presidential bid. Kerry politicized his war record over and over.

That is my personal take tho, YMMV.

Both married rich wives and continued to serve their country. Strange how their careers have gone.

190 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:14:33pm

re: #176 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, I feel like that truth doesn’t depend on this, either, it’s obvious from the way he shuffled it around and took time off to campaign. It wasn’t something he considered as a priority above the rest of his life. That’s clear.

Ah, we are in agreement, but speaking from different sides of the cow. Cool.

191 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:14:36pm

re: #186 Mentis Fugit

I’ve never understood the concept of a designated Hitler.

Having a single entity to hate unites people. Useful tool for those who seek power.

192 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:15:30pm
193 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:15:54pm

re: #179 GeneJockey

Yeah, that’s kind of how I saw it, too. But confirmation bias is a very real thing, and these guys had a lot invested in Bush being a Big, Bad Warrior and Kerry being an effete Boston Liberal Weenie.

To answer Dark’s question, you’re goddam right Kerry would have been attacked. Max Cleland was the test case - a decorated veteran who left a significant part of himself in Vietnam, successfully attacked by a guy who avoided service, for being soft on military issues.

Once Rove knew they could do that to somebody like Cleland, they knew they could attack Kerry in similar fashion.

Now, the Swiftboat Liars would probably have had fewer guys signing up if Kerry hadn’t come out against the war, but they would still have gone after the service as the biggest thing Kerry had over Bush, who was still fairly popular.

I think those were really the 2 most egregious occurrences that happened to wake me up to what level the rightwing had finally sunk.

194 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:16:35pm

re: #192 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Is Officer Pepperski among them?

195 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:16:35pm

re: #180 Justanotherhuman

It’s absolutism, just as their religious beliefs are. There is no “wiggle room” for any of it because it’s not based on real human values.

Yeah, some arbitrary value system based on a man’s interpretation of myth and lore.

196 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:17:41pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

I don’t think so. AntiVietnam war protesters were common and have since been romanticized in pop culture. I don’t think his anti-war protests were much of a factor.

I disagree, having read numerous wingnuts excoriate Kerry for being associated with a group claiming that US troops perpetrated atrocities in Vietnam.

These same folks will tell you Walter Cronkite lost us the war, but somehow they can never define how we’d have “won”, or what “winning” would have been.

197 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:18:19pm

re: #177 lawhawk

But the fact is that the documents were bogus, and couldn’t and shouldn’t have passed the smell test. CBS got so much of it wrong.

As above, I hold that the docs were bogus, but were actually telling tales about GWB’s service.

Since they can’t be proven, in the USA that’s called “fiction” instead of “fact.”

I really wish the journalists had dug deeper… the absence of documentation of GWB’s service would have been an interesting story.

198 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:19:01pm

re: #184 Justanotherhuman

Keep calm and carry on. : )

T-shirt uniforms at the local Lebanese restaurant say:

Keep Calm and Eat Sharwma.

199 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:19:14pm

re: #186 Mentis Fugit

I’ve never understood the concept of a designated Hitler.

useful when the pitcher is too nice to be a decent hitler himself

200 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:19:16pm

I don’t know how people can use Twitter at all without a global mute feature, like Tweetdeck has. Maybe I get more idiots bent on harassment than other people, but still. I couldn’t function at all on Twitter without it.

201 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:19:21pm

re: #192 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

The helmets look like caviar.

202 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:19:31pm

re: #179 GeneJockey

I regret I only have one upding to give.

203 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:20:38pm

re: #198 FemNaziBitch

T-shirt uniforms at the local Lebanese restaurant say:

Keep Calm and Eat Sharwma.

talk softly and carry a big shwarma?

204 Mattand  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:20:49pm

I just found out that Ted Cruz was in the delegation to South Africa for Mandela’s funeral.

Ted Cruz.

Seriously, how the fuck does that happen?

205 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:20:51pm

re: #186 Mentis Fugit

I’ve never understood the concept of a designated Hitler.

Don’t they get counted the hits in normal season play?

206 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:21:11pm

re: #194 Decatur Deb

Is Officer Pepperski among them?

Funny you should ask.

Ukraine: Police pepper spray pro-EU protesters in Kiev

ava360.com

207 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:21:16pm

re: #204 Mattand

I just found out that Ted Cruz was in the delegation to South Africa for Mandela’s funeral.

Ted Cruz.

Seriously, how the fuck does that happen?

Same way Michelle Bachmann get’s on the Intelligence Committee.

208 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:21:33pm

re: #204 Mattand

I just found out that Ted Cruz was in the delegation to South Africa for Mandela’s funeral.

Ted Cruz.

Seriously, how the fuck does that happen?

He wants to be the new maverick.

209 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:21:57pm

re: #177 lawhawk

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Rather wanted them to be true because they fulfilled his view of GWB. Those at DKos who felt the same way likewise wanted them to be true - fake but accurate.

But the fact is that the documents were bogus, and couldn’t and shouldn’t have passed the smell test. CBS got so much of it wrong.

Personally, i was suckered for a while. But not because I “wanted them to be true.”

Instead, I’d been doing research on him already. And he had these extremely glaring holes all documented in the public record. Things like the fact he hadn’t flown for several months more than allowed, both by record and by his own admission. Things like the lack of attendance records (despite lots of redundancies). Things like he was months past the mandatory flight surgeon review.

My opinion is that the documents were a magnificent cover play. The digging of multiple reporters was continuing to show these problems and indeed were making them worse for Bush. Suddenly we get “smoking gun papers”. Papers making explicit the things that at that point were ‘merely’ implicit.

When the papers were demonstrated to be false it shut down all the stuff that wasn’t. Any attempt to point to the actual record got immediately redirected to Rather’s fiasco papers.

It was in a lot of ways the mirror of Rove’s classical attack pattern. Instead of attacking the strength by making it ridiculous, neuter attacks on the weakness by making such an attack ridiculous.

210 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:22:10pm

Someone with big bucks actually thinks Ted Cruz should or will be POTUS someday.

Eh, that person has the right to waste their money any way they wish.

211 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:23:23pm

re: #204 Mattand

Member of the Congressional Black Caucus. That’s how.

212 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:23:27pm

re: #204 Mattand

I just found out that Ted Cruz was in the delegation to South Africa for Mandela’s funeral.

Ted Cruz.

Seriously, how the fuck does that happen?

a big mistake on his part since his nice words for mandela have made him the latest person to be struck off the wingnut presidential preference list

213 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:23:45pm

So….

What’s up and groovy today?

214 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:23:50pm

re: #206 Justanotherhuman

Funny you should ask.

Ukraine: Police pepper spray pro-EU protesters in Kiev

ava360.com

Kids remember the smell of riot-control agent for a long time. It’s good for their development.

215 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:24:10pm

re: #196 GeneJockey

I disagree, having read numerous wingnuts excoriate Kerry for being associated with a group claiming that US troops perpetrated atrocities in Vietnam.

These same folks will tell you Walter Cronkite lost us the war, but somehow they can never define how we’d have “won”, or what “winning” would have been.

The people upset over his antiwar protests weren’t going to vote for him anyways. They made a lot of noise about it but I don’t think it was a factor in the election. That reminds me they also tried to paint him as an out of touch overly wealthy capitalist exploiter too. So it goes.

216 Mattand  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:24:31pm

re: #211 lawhawk

Member of the Congressional Black Caucus. That’s how.

LOL, guess what my next question is going to be.

217 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:24:32pm

re: #204 Mattand

I just found out that Ted Cruz was in the delegation to South Africa for Mandela’s funeral.

Ted Cruz.

Seriously, how the fuck does that happen?

Needed the frequent-flyer miles.

218 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:24:49pm

re: #189 FemNaziBitch

The difference, I think was that McCain didn’t exploit his veteran status and disabilities due to torture (being a POW) during his presidential bid. Kerry politicized his war record over and over.

McCain’s been exploiting his vet/Pow/military/disabilities status for his long-ago Senatorial bid.

I agree, Kerry politicized his war record over and over, but he was absolute CRAP at talking about being against the war. Many years later! Providing context for his actions and words. WTF?

219 Lord of the Pies  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:24:58pm

re: #137 Charles Johnson

To this day I’m amazed that nobody saw how fake those documents were before the report aired.

Not so amazed that some commenters at Daily Kos are still dead-ending it, though. Ideology can lead people to fool themselves.

I haz a disappointment in Wonkette.

220 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:25:17pm

Good evening Lizardim, how goes the flow? Not much chatter yet about the big budget deal….

WASHINGTON - Congressional negotiators reached a budget deal Tuesday that would end the possibility of another government shutdown for the next two years. But the agreement faced strong opposition from conservative groups that could jeopardize its prospects of passage in the House.

“Because of this deal, the budget process can now stop lurching from crisis to crisis,” said Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), chairwoman of the Senate Budget Committee.

latimes.com

I’ll believe when I see it or rather don’t see a repeated wrangle for some reason. Would be nice to see things settle a bit.


latimes.com

221 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:25:42pm

re: #200 Charles Johnson

I don’t know how people can use Twitter at all without a global mute feature, like Tweetdeck has. Maybe I get more idiots bent on harassment than other people, but still. I couldn’t function at all on Twitter without it.

No problems here. Then again I blocked a zillion people in the past.

222 calochortus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:27:03pm

re: #196 GeneJockey

I disagree, having read numerous wingnuts excoriate Kerry for being associated with a group claiming that US troops perpetrated atrocities in Vietnam.

These same folks will tell you Walter Cronkite lost us the war, but somehow they can never define how we’d have “won”, or what “winning” would have been.

Actually, I did ask someone a few years about her opinion on Vietnam (it was relevant to our conversation.) She said we’d won because we held off communism just long enough for it to fail in the long run.

I’m afraid I was so stunned by the weirdness of that answer I was left with my mouth hanging open.

223 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:27:07pm

re: #220 Political Atheist

Ryan got lots of cuts, Murray got a deal. I’ll leave it to you to figure out who won that one.

224 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:27:14pm

re: #207 FemNaziBitch

Same way Michelle Bachmann gets on the Intelligence Committee.

Thanks, FNB, now you reminded me to go be sick.

225 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:27:42pm

re: #220 Political Atheist

Good evening Lizardim, how goes the flow? Not much chatter yet about the big budget deal….

WASHINGTON - Congressional negotiators reached a budget deal Tuesday that would end the possibility of another government shutdown for the next two years. But the agreement faced strong opposition from conservative groups that could jeopardize its prospects of passage in the House.
>
“Because of this deal, the budget process can now stop lurching from crisis to crisis,” said Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), chairwoman of the Senate Budget Committee.

latimes.com

I’ll believe when I see it or rather don’t see a repeated wrangle for some reason. Would be nice to see things settle a bit.

latimes.com

I think the biggest thing of note is, while the deal sets the budget limit, the appropriation bills still have to be written and passed before Jan 15th. I expect that, between now and then, the GOP conservatives are going to fight every single bill tooth and nail.

226 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:27:43pm

re: #219 Lord of the Pies

I haz a disappointment in Wonkette.

Well, you need to set Doktor Zoom right.

227 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:28:59pm

re: #219 Lord of the Pies

I haz a disappointment in Wonkette.

Like I said.

228 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:30:02pm

re: #219 Lord of the Pies

I haz a disappointment in Wonkette.

Yup, that’s what I mean by a dead-ender. They’re fooling themselves, but I’d never be able to convince them because they weren’t convinced by evidence in the first place - they just need it to be true for ideological reasons.

229 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:30:39pm

You realize …

we rehash the Rather “Fake but Accurate” document scandal and the first time voters at the next election will not remember it at all?

It might as well be the Peloponnesian War for all it means to them.

230 Lord of the Pies  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:31:34pm

re: #228 Charles Johnson

Yup, that’s what I mean by a dead-ender. They’re fooling themselves, but I’d never be able to convince them because they weren’t convinced by evidence in the first place - they just need it to be true for ideological reasons.

Yeah but to give the credit for outing the docs to the FReepers?

That sucks.

231 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:32:02pm
232 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:32:08pm

re: #229 FemNaziBitch

For them, 300 is a documentary. /wish I was kidding, but considering the sorry state of education and knowledge of all things historical…

233 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:32:22pm

The ability of humans to ignore history, avowed puffed-up speechifying, and tending to simple basic human kindness amazes me.

Why are humans such dickholes, on the average?

(A lot of us do, and have, worked for our common brethren. You guys aren’t included in this.)

234 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:32:55pm

re: #229 FemNaziBitch

You realize …

we rehash the Rather “Fake but Accurate” document scandal and the first time voters at the next election will not remember it at all?

It might as well be the Peloponnesian War for all it means to them.

Hell, come 2016, most of what the last election revolved around will have faded into memory. “47%” will get a lot of blank stares.

235 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:34:30pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

Hell, come 2016, most of what the last election revolved around will have faded into memory. “47%” will get a lot of blank stares.

Be of good cheer. The Party of Derp is an endless bounty.

236 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:34:34pm

re: #229 FemNaziBitch

You realize …

we rehash the Rather “Fake but Accurate” document scandal and the first time voters at the next election will not remember it at all?

It might as well be the Peloponnesian War for all it means to them.

Righty-right.

It’s all dust in the wind.

My only JFK conspiracy is about Ruby whacking Oswald for the Mob.

237 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:35:22pm

re: #222 calochortus

Actually, I did ask someone a few years about her opinion on Vietnam (it was relevant to our conversation.) She said we’d won because we held off communism just long enough for it to fail in the long run.

I’m afraid I was so stunned by the weirdness of that answer I was left with my mouth hanging open.

So if NVN had taken over the South earlier, Communism would have succeeded? How’s THAT work?

238 jamesfirecat  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:35:40pm

re: #65 Targetpractice

Have Matthew Broderick squashed like a pancake in the first five minutes and I’ll consider Hollywood’s debt repaid to the franchise.

That’s a lot of fish!

239 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:35:57pm

re: #233 chadu

The ability of humans to ignore history, avowed puffed-up speechifying, and tending to simple basic human kindness amazes me.

Why are humans such dickholes, on the average?

(A lot of us do, and have, worked for our common brethren. You guys aren’t included in this.)

We’re really not, on average, assholes. We’re really actually cool, or we would have died out a long time ago. The main problem we have is the structures in our society that reward dickbags, and unfortunately both our capitalist system and our government have pretty big rewards for assjerks.

240 calochortus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:36:44pm

re: #237 GeneJockey

So if NVN had taken over the South earlier, Communism would have succeeded? How’s THAT work?

I have no idea. I’m not sure she did either.

241 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:36:45pm

re: #64 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Shut up Wesley!
/Obligatory

242 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:36:47pm

re: #232 lawhawk

For them, 300 is a documentary. /wish I was kidding, but considering the sorry state of education and knowledge of all things historical…

Dear Lord, if they ever read up on Sparta… The institutionalized homosexual and pedophilic sexual abuse might give them pause.

…

Or not.

243 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:36:49pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

That’s a lot of fish!

Burn the heretic!!!

//

244 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:37:09pm

re: #232 lawhawk

For them, 300 is a documentary. /wish I was kidding, but considering the sorry state of education and knowledge of all things historical…

It’s also a matter of importance. What we think is terribly essential isn’t to them. I can think of similar things with my parents —events and topics that had no bearing and still have no bearing on my life.

Not to harp on the subject, but birth control is a big one. My moms generation never considered it in their lives. (Catholic) So it never figured into anything they thought or remembered. “So and so didn’t have to have all those children” —well, yes Mom, she did. Shit like that.

Or Dad tell me about stuff living without Rural Electricity and water from the well. I don’t need and will never need to know this stuff. Maybe if had become a civil engineer or worked at a water facility …

What happened in Carthage or Egypt or Greece 2000 years ago isn’t going to matter to most of these kids.

I’d like to think everyone could get a Classical Education and learn the ancient languages, but it is probably more important they learn to communicate with people on the other side of the planet and learn to accept other cultures.

245 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:37:45pm

re: #233 chadu

The ability of humans to ignore history, avowed puffed-up speechifying, and tending to simple basic human kindness amazes me.

Why are humans such dickholes, on the average?

(A lot of us do, and have, worked for our common brethren. You guys aren’t included in this.)

Fear.

246 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:38:20pm

re: #243 Targetpractice

Burn the heretic!!!

//

So long and thanks for all the Fish?

247 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:39:04pm

re: #230 Lord of the Pies

Yeah but to give the credit for outing the docs to the FReepers?

That sucks.

It’s true that “Buckhead” from Free Republic was the first one to publicly post something questioning the docs.

I didn’t see that post originally, because I’ve never been a Free Republic guy. I only became aware of it because I saw PowerLine’s post about Buckhead’s post, got curious, and downloaded the PDFs from the CBS website. As soon as I saw the first one, I knew instantly it was a fake.

248 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:39:26pm

re: #232 lawhawk

For them, 300 is a documentary. /wish I was kidding, but considering the sorry state of education and knowledge of all things historical…

Shudder. That is such a pile of manure on every level. Couldn’t get the armor right because it didn’t look good enough - or covered too much like it’s _supposed_ to do so that it can protect you! Plenty of other hysterical/historical errors before we get to the core of the Sparta worshiping in it.

249 Bear  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:39:56pm

re: #231 FemNaziBitch

What gives with the bright color of the handguns in the officer’s holster?

250 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:39:58pm

re: #233 chadu

The ability of humans to ignore history, avowed puffed-up speechifying, and tending to simple basic human kindness amazes me.

Why are humans such dickholes, on the average?

(A lot of us do, and have, worked for our common brethren. You guys aren’t included in this.)

I blame Dunbar’s number.

251 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:40:05pm

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Shudder. That is such a pile of manure on every level. Couldn’t get the armor right because it didn’t look good enough - or covered too much like it’s _supposed_ to do so that it can protect you! Plenty of other hysterical/historical errors before we get to the core of the Sparta worshiping in it.

And Greeks all speak English with Scottish accents!

252 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:09pm

Facts are facts. Dumb comment probably.

253 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:15pm

re: #249 Bear

What gives with the bright color of the handguns in the officer’s holster?

Rubber training aids. It’s probably a drill.

254 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:25pm

FLORAL!!!!!

It’s a girl.

255 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:29pm

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Shudder. That is such a pile of manure on every level. Couldn’t get the armor right because it didn’t look good enough - or covered too much like it’s _supposed_ to do so that it can protect you! Plenty of other hysterical/historical errors before we get to the core of the Sparta worshiping in it.

Speedo armor ftw!

256 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:41pm

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Shudder. That is such a pile of manure on every level. Couldn’t get the armor right because it didn’t look good enough - or covered too much like it’s _supposed_ to do so that it can protect you! Plenty of other hysterical/historical errors before we get to the core of the Sparta worshiping in it.

In fantasy setting, the less the armor actually covers, the more effective the armor is.

257 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:41:59pm

re: #224 chadu

>Thanks, FNB, now you reminded me to go be sick.

Hey, we can NEVER FORGET.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:42:17pm

re: #249 Bear

What gives with the bright color of the handguns in the officer’s holster?

Plastic fakes used for safe training. This is a posed “joke” photo so I presume they didn’t want anyone fubaring things with a real gun.

The blue ones are very good - exact size, shape and weight as what they duplicate.

259 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:42:42pm

re: #244 FemNaziBitch

It’s also a matter of importance. What we think is terribly essential isn’t to them. I can think of similar things with my parents —events and topics that had no bearing and still have no bearing on my life.

Not to harp on the subject, but birth control is a big one. My moms generation never considered it in their lives. (Catholic) So it never figured into anything they thought or remembered. “So and so didn’t have to have all those children” —well, yes Mom, she did. Shit like that.

Or Dad tell me about stuff living without Rural Electricity and water from the well. I don’t need and will never need to know this stuff. Maybe if had become a civil engineer or worked at a water facility …

What happened in Carthage or Egypt or Greece 2000 years ago isn’t going to matter to most of these kids.

I’d like to think everyone could get a Classical Education and learn the ancient languages, but it is probably more important they learn to communicate with people on the other side of the planet and learn to accept other cultures.

Different young people are different, but what you say is largely true. My older son is interested in politics, and gets his jollies poking at Conservatives on FB, whereas the younger one makes fun of me for yattering on about “Conservatives this and Republicans that”. But when Mandela died, and the older one asked who he was, I realized something: Both of them grew up in a world without not only Apartheid, but also without the Soviet Union and the imminent danger of nuclear war that I’d lived with all my life.

The older one is interested in history (goes with an interest in politics), but somehow I think his view of the world vis a vis mine will be like the Dad whose kid dismissively referred to The Beatles as “Paul McCartney’s first group, before Wings”.

260 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:42:44pm

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Shudder. That is such a pile of manure on every level. Couldn’t get the armor right because it didn’t look good enough - or covered too much like it’s _supposed_ to do so that it can protect you! Plenty of other hysterical/historical errors before we get to the core of the Sparta worshiping in it.

It was a Zack Snyder adaptation of a Frank Miller graphic novel. Historical accuracy was down at the bottom of the list, just under “Coherent plot.”

261 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:43:04pm

re: #249 Bear

What gives with the bright color of the handguns in the officer’s holster?

Designates what team they are playing for on any given day.

262 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:43:19pm

re: #256 Kragar

In fantasy setting, the less the armor actually covers, the more effective the armor is.

The more scantily clad a female warrior is, the higher her armor rating.

//

263 Bear  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:43:52pm

re: #253 Decatur Deb

I think you hit the nail on the head.

264 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:44:00pm

re: #259 GeneJockey

Different young people are different, but what you say is largely true. My older son is interested in politics, and gets his jollies poking at Conservatives on FB, whereas the younger one makes fun of me for yattering on about “Conservatives this and Republicans that”. But when Mandela died, and the older one asked who he was, I realized something: Both of them grew up in a world without not only Apartheid, but also without the Soviet Union and the imminent danger of nuclear war that I’d lived with all my life.

The older one is interested in history (goes with an interest in politics), but somehow I think his view of the world vis a vis mine will be like the Dad whose kid dismissively referred to The Beatles as “Paul McCartney’s first group, before Wings”.

Yep, we can only watch and hope.

By and large, I like this current crop of young people. I think they are less fettered with the past and maybe that is a good thing.

265 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:44:06pm

Image: Funny.FemaleArmor.jpg

266 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:45:14pm

re: #250 Kragar

I blame Dunbar’s number.

We really need a movement to counter the Dunning-Kruger sitch.

Hell, I suffer from it.

267 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:45:53pm

re: #265 Kragar

Image: Funny.FemaleArmor.jpg

^Meh.
Image: 450423.jpg

268 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:46:52pm

Later, lizards.

269 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:46:56pm

re: #267 Varek Raith

^Meh.
Image: 450423.jpg

Linky no worky,

That means I win.

270 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:47:12pm

Okay, time for my last Sex and Gender class of the semester. But goddamn I am still far behind in my final-paper writing schedule, I need to step it the fuck up. I’d forgotten the half-fun half-panic-inducing nature of the finals schedule.

271 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:47:13pm

re: #257 FemNaziBitch

Hey, we can NEVER FORGET.

There needs to be a way that absolute douches cannot serve on committees that they are absolute douches about.

IMAO.

272 jamesfirecat  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:47:18pm

re: #150 Shiplord Kirel

Harry Turtledove expertly addresses these scenarios, including a German-Polish alliance, in his alt-history series The War that Came Early. The premise is that WW2 starts at the time of the Munich Crisis.

Turtledove is a good writer if you can stand his habit of repeating himself.


Turtledove is a good writer if you can stand his habit of repeating himself.


Turtledove is a good writer if you can stand his habit of repeating himself.


Turtledove is a good writer if you can stand his habit of repeating himself.

Sam Carsten sunburns easily and Zinc Oxide does not help much.

273 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:47:20pm

re: #223 Skip Intro

Ryan got lots of cuts, Murray got a deal. I’ll leave it to you to figure out who won that one.

I think I’m with Targetpractice #225. The Tea Party took a hit, I figure some time will tell the tale. Is the TP resilient or will it fall like a fainting belle?

274 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:13pm

re: #269 Kragar

Linky no worky,

That means I win.

Nope.
Image: HildeSC4.jpg

275 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:31pm

What War on Women? REALLY, we can classify this one as war on anything not White, Evangelical, and perfectly healthy and financially stable.

The drug/prison debacle has to be addressed. I hope it is a talking point in the next election cycle.

The insanity is bewildering.

276 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:49pm

re: #208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

He wants to be the new maverick.

He wants to be the next President

277 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:52pm

re: #259 GeneJockey

The older one is interested in history (goes with an interest in politics), but somehow I think his view of the world vis a vis mine will be like the Dad whose kid dismissively referred to The Beatles as “Paul McCartney’s first group, before Wings”.

I don’t even.

(And I like Wings.)

But.

Gah.

…

I don’t even.

278 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:55pm

re: #270 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, time for my last Sex and Gender class of the semester. But goddamn I am still far behind in my final-paper writing schedule, I need to step it the fuck up. I’d forgotten the half-fun half-panic-inducing nature of the finals schedule.

How do you class Sex and Gender?

:0

279 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:48:56pm

Hmm. Dawkins sells Pat Condell videos.

280 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:49:17pm

re: #276 fern01

He wants to be the next President

Isn’t he Canadian by birth?

281 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:49:57pm

re: #273 Political Atheist

I think I’m with Targetpractice #225. The Tea Party took a hit, I figure some time will tell the tale. Is the TP resilient or will it fall like a fainting belle?

What I’m looking at is that, even though the House passed a budget earlier this year, almost immediately every appropriations bill got bogged down due to the committees responsible for them being unable to work within the constraints set by the Ryan “Budget” and still maintain a functioning government.

282 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:49:58pm

re: #279 Gus

Yes, he’s been a fan of Condell for a while.

283 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:50:13pm

re: #274 Varek Raith

Nope.
Image: HildeSC4.jpg

Bolter beats sword

Image: Sister.Of.Battle.full.1102057.jpg

284 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:50:23pm

re: #268 wrenchwench

Later, lizards.

That’s a funny lookin’ meatball. It has fuzz on it.

285 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:50:31pm

re: #280 FemNaziBitch

Isn’t he Canadian by birth?

You fronting for Orly Taitz?

286 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:50:42pm

re: #283 Kragar

Bolter beats sword

Image: Sister.Of.Battle.full.1102057.jpg

Lol, now your link doesn’t work.

287 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:50:51pm

re: #270 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, time for my last Sex and Gender class of the semester. But goddamn I am still far behind in my final-paper writing schedule, I need to step it the fuck up. I’d forgotten the half-fun half-panic-inducing nature of the finals schedule.

Thesis statement: “Sex is, like, fun, no matter your gender”?

288 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:51:15pm

re: #285 Decatur Deb

You fronting for Orly Taitz?

NONONONONONONONONO

289 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:51:53pm

re: #288 FemNaziBitch

NONONONONONONONONO

Yes.
:P

290 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:52:14pm

re: #272 jamesfirecat

Turtledove is a good writer if you can stand his habit of repeating himself.

That’s why you only read ONE of his altered timestream series!

291 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:52:31pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

Yes, he’s been a fan of Condell for a while.

Ha! One of the DVDs has a quote from PZ Myers.

292 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:53:00pm

re: #270 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, time for my last Sex and Gender class of the semester. But goddamn I am still far behind in my final-paper writing schedule, I need to step it the fuck up. I’d forgotten the half-fun half-panic-inducing nature of the finals schedule.

This is about the time of year I would always get the ‘Naked at the final exam I didn’t sign up for’ dream. That and late May. Every goddam year for at least a decade after I graduated.

293 klys  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:54:13pm

re: #270 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, time for my last Sex and Gender class of the semester. But goddamn I am still far behind in my final-paper writing schedule, I need to step it the fuck up. I’d forgotten the half-fun half-panic-inducing nature of the finals schedule.

Plus side: my final was yesterday.

Downside: my final was yesterday.

At least the next class is supposed to be “code code code” and not “proof proof proof.”

294 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:54:26pm

re: #286 Varek Raith

Lol, now your link doesn’t work.

Lies.

Image: Sister.Of.Battle.full.1102057.jpg

295 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:54:39pm

re: #292 GeneJockey

This is about the time of year I would always get the ‘Naked at the final exam I didn’t sign up for’ dream. That and late May. Every goddam year for at least a decade after I graduated.

You’re all pikers.

I did the “naked at the final exam” for reals.

296 klys  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:55:47pm

re: #295 chadu

You’re all pikers.

I did the “naked at the final exam” for reals.

One of the favorite stories a prof shared with me in undergrad was about how for one of her calculus finals, it was the morning they had to move out of the apartment, and what does one do with the beer in the fridge?

I think it was an 8am exam too.

297 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:56:02pm

Out of all the wars in history, nothing puts a smile on my face faster than the War on Christmas.

298 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:56:47pm

re: #294 Kragar

Lies.

Image: Sister.Of.Battle.full.1102057.jpg

Gotta love a woman in full armor.
Badass.

299 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:56:52pm

re: #297 Balfour Rage

Out of all the wars in history, nothing puts a smile on my face faster than the War on Christmas.

Image: War_on_Christmas.jpg

300 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:57:47pm

re: #295 chadu

You’re all pikers.

I did the “naked at the final exam” for reals.

Not for me.

As a nekkid model, for a 15 minute charcoal sketch, for art students as part of their final. (The money I earned would buy a cheese-bread loaf and a couple packs of ramen. YAY!)

Weird sitch.

301 Lord of the Pies  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:57:59pm

re: #247 Charles Johnson

It’s true that “Buckhead” from Free Republic was the first one to publicly post something questioning the docs.

I didn’t see that post originally, because I’ve never been a Free Republic guy. I only became aware of it because I saw PowerLine’s post about Buckhead’s post, got curious, and downloaded the PDFs from the CBS website. As soon as I saw the first one, I knew instantly it was a fake.

I was a FReeper at the time and I do remember Buckhead starting the conversation, but then you picked up the ball and ran with it.

Also, Wonkette is claiming there so too were typewriters that could do superscript and kerning and italics in the 1970’s!!!11!!! well yeah, but they cost like $20,000 and were mini typesetting machines and required specialized training to operate. They were not something that somebody at a low-level National Guard jrrb would have for playing around on and writing personal memos to self.

302 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:58:14pm

I’m not gnashing my teeth at McCain.

303 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:58:57pm

re: #298 Varek Raith

Gotta love a woman in full armor.
Badass.

Sisters of Battle are awesome like that.

304 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 5:59:12pm

re: #280 FemNaziBitch

Isn’t he Canadian by birth?

Don’t let facts get in the way of “He who wants to be King” - most discussions seem to indicate his American mother is sufficient - his own party not giving President Obama (who WAS born in the US) the same courtesy, could cause him some grief.

305 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:00:28pm

re: #298 Varek Raith

Gotta love a woman in full armor.
Badass.

Yeah, no. Anime eyes just don’t do it for me.

306 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:00:39pm

re: #304 fern01

Don’t let facts get in the way of “He who wants to be King” - most discussions seem to indicate his American mother is sufficient - his own party not giving President Obama (who WAS born in the US) the same courtesy, could cause him some grief.

It really doesn’t matter.
Hope he liked his ride on AF1, it’s as close as he’ll ever get.

307 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:01:31pm

Megyn Kelly starts her show with “The handshake that rocked the world.”
FFS.

308 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:01:47pm

re: #304 fern01

Don’t let facts get in the way of “He who wants to be King” - most discussions seem to indicate his American mother is sufficient - his own party not giving President Obama (who WAS born in the US) the same courtesy, could cause him some grief.

Its fun watching wingnuts turn on each other. There will be birthers insisting Cruz is ineligible.

309 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:01:56pm

re: #306 Backwoods_Sleuth

It really doesn’t matter.
Hope he liked his ride on AF1, it’s as close as he’ll ever get.

Maybe if Obama makes him sit in the back like Clinton did to Newt, Cruz will push to impeach him.

310 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:02:32pm

re: #307 Balfour Rage

Megyn Kelly starts her show with “The handshake that rocked the world.”
FFS.

Ar you kidding me?

311 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:02:45pm
Ar you kidding me?

Nope.

312 chadu  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:02:57pm

I’mma gonna heat up some Hawaiian pizza (for reals!) and eat and then sleep.

See you tomorrow, lizards.

313 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:03:26pm

re: #306 Backwoods_Sleuth

It really doesn’t matter.
Hope he liked his ride on AF1, it’s as close as he’ll ever get.

Far as I know he didn’t get to ride on AF1 - I think GWB was the only GOPer on that flight

314 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:03:45pm

re: #311 Balfour Rage

So today I got to assist a photographer at JSC here in Houston. It was an assignment for Time magazine, and

Nope.

Jeezly H. Krispy Kreme. What nonsense.

315 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:04:01pm

re: #305 GeneJockey

Yeah, no. Anime eyes just don’t do it for me.

Better?

Image: Adepta_Sororitas_by_MajesticChicken.jpg

Image: 1213572762900.jpg

316 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:04:15pm

re: #309 GeneJockey

Maybe if Obama makes him sit in the back like Clinton did to Newt, Cruz will push to impeach him.

It will be interesting to see his position on the budget deal Ryan agreed to. I think it will pass despite Tea Party opposition; the sequester levels are simply too low for even many Republicans to support.

317 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:04:27pm

re: #307 Balfour Rage

Megyn Kelly starts her show with “The handshake that rocked the world.”
FFS.

OFFS

318 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:04:52pm

re: #315 Kragar

Better?

Image: Adepta_Sororitas_by_MajesticChicken.jpg

Image: 1213572762900.jpg

Like Jane Lynch’s character in Wreck-It Ralph.

319 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:09pm

re: #313 fern01

Far as I know he didn’t get to ride on AF1 - I think GWB was the only GOPer on that flight

well, it’s a fun thought, anyway.

320 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:16pm

re: #315 Kragar

Better?

Image: Adepta_Sororitas_by_MajesticChicken.jpg

Image: 1213572762900.jpg

I do love a woman in uniform.

321 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:34pm

re: #317 Kragar

OFFS

Perpetual outrage.
Wheee!

322 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:44pm

re: #279 Gus

Hmm. Dawkins sells Pat Condell videos.

Not surprising. UK athiests/secularists have a different set of troubles than we have in America. This is the latest topic of debate.


It’s shameful that our universities have accepted gender segregation under pressure from the most oppressive religious fanatics

This capitulation is a disaster for feminism, progressive ideals and above all Muslims

Youtube Video

323 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:49pm

re: #318 GeneJockey

Like Jane Lynch’s character in Wreck-It Ralph.

Sororitas came first.

324 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:05:57pm

re: #301 Lord of the Pies

I was a FReeper at the time and I do remember Buckhead starting the conversation, but then you picked up the ball and ran with it.

Also, Wonkette is claiming there so too were typewriters that could do superscript and kerning and italics in the 1970’s!!!11!!! well yeah, but they cost like $20,000 and were mini typesetting machines and required specialized training to operate. They were not something that somebody at a low-level National Guard jrrb would have for playing around on and writing personal memos to self.

That’s all true, but more than that — even if you tried to produce a document with one of these hypothetical typesetting typewriters that wouldn’t have been found anywhere near a Texas Air National Guard base, there’s STILL no way you could produce something that looks like the CBS documents. The fonts these high-end machines used were not the same fonts we use today, and anyone trying to duplicate the CBS docs with one of them would immediately discover that the spacing, kerning, leading, line breaks, tab stops, etc. were not even close.

And I duplicated one of the docs exactly, in just a few minutes with the default settings of Microsoft Word.

Microsoft Word has had a few revisions since then, and you probably couldn’t reproduce that doc the same way with the latest version. That’s how distinctive the “font fingerprint” is.

325 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:06:31pm

So today I go to the Johnson Space Center to assist a photographer with what I thought was photographing a couple of space suits. I show up, we go through the drill, unload, set up, test lights, etc. Look, there’s a space suit, that’s pretty cool. Then a female voice goes “Hello! How is everyone??!!” Enter astronaut Peggy Whitson. I shook her hand, introduced myself and thought to myself “Holy shit, I just met and shook hands with an astronaut.”

Today totally fucking rocked.

326 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:06:31pm
327 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:06:46pm

re: #307 Balfour Rage

Megyn Kelly starts her show with “The handshake that rocked the world.”
FFS.

Guess she forgot to mention that Nelson Mandela really did rock the world. It never ceases to amaze (and I should have stopped being amazed some time in Jan 2009) that the US media can make ANY world wide event all about “how to hate on a President”.

328 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:07:25pm

re: #323 Kragar

Sororitas came first.

Yeah, but guess whose voice I heard in my head when I saw the pic.

329 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:08:10pm

re: #320 Targetpractice

I do love a woman in uniform.

And thanks to the writing of Commissar Ciaphas Cain, we have documented proof that while the Sisters of Battle are a religious order, their members don’t take vows of chastity.

/40k geekage

330 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:08:12pm

re: #321 Varek Raith

Perpetual outrage.
Wheee!

The handshake plus the President’s selfie gave the wingnuts lots to gnash their teeth over.

331 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:09:31pm

re: #316 aagcobb

It will be interesting to see his position on the budget deal Ryan agreed to. I think it will pass despite Tea Party opposition; the sequester levels are simply too low for even many Republicans to support.

Including the military in the sequester levels is what the Tea party cannot handle - they like to spend 99% of the economy in showing the world the military might. Somewhat like North Korea.

332 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:09:37pm

Brienne


Image: 300px-Brienne_of_Tarth_HBO.jpg

333 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:10:37pm

re: #326 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Who is the new head of GM!? MARY Barra. Celebrate the win?

334 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:11:06pm

re: #222 calochortus

Actually, I did ask someone a few years about her opinion on Vietnam (it was relevant to our conversation.) She said we’d won because we held off communism just long enough for it to fail in the long run.

I’m afraid I was so stunned by the weirdness of that answer I was left with my mouth hanging open.

An interesting “what if?” Without massive US intervention, the Republic of (South) Vietnam would almost certainly have collapsed during the summer of 1965. My guess is that the decision to intervene to prevent that collapse probably delayed the collapse of international communism by about 10 years.
Winning the Vietnam War was probably communism’s greatest triumph since the October Revolution. It was arguably greater than the take-over of China in a psychological and perceptual sense, since it had been achieved in the face of US intervention.
After the war did finally end, in 1975, international communism was riding high and appeared invincible, in Africa, the Middle East, and in Latin America. Popular culture had been radicalized and coarsened by the bitter and seemingly endless debate: The credibility of communism and its allies was higher in the west than it had been at any time since the Great Depression. I remember the final days of the war very vividly, even though I was safely at home by then. There was a fatalism, a sense of inevitability, about it; like a man finally dying of the cancer he has known about for years.
Nobody would have believed that it was communism, not the west, that would collapse like a house of cards just 15 years later.

A South Vietnamese collapse in 1965 would have destroyed LBJ’s career, which was destroyed by his war policy instead, but the other effects would probably have been very limited. Under the ill-informed “domino theory” the next domino on the commie hit list was Thailand. Well, Thailand was just another domino only to those who knew nothing of its history, culture, government, and military traditions. Some regiments of the Thai army have existed for centuries. The communist advance would have stopped there in a hypothetical 1965 after a South Vietnamese collapse. Indeed, it stopped there after the real collapse ten years later.

335 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:11:30pm

re: #330 aagcobb

The handshake plus the President’s selfie gave the wingnuts lots to gnash their teeth over.

That’s not all. The wingnuts are in orgasmic glee at FLOTUS’s expression. I also saw them in a feeding frenzy over her switching seats with Obama, like she was all suspicious that the Dutch PM was trying to “get her man.” Or something. It’s so fucking pathetic.

336 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:11:32pm

re: #324 Charles Johnson

That’s all true, but more than that — even if you tried to produce a document with one of these hypothetical type-setting typewriters, there’s STILL no way you could produce something that looks like the CBS documents. The fonts these high-end machines used were not the same fonts we use today, and anyone trying to duplicate the CBS docs this way would immediately discover that the spacing, kerning, leading, line breaks, tab stops, etc. were not even close.

And I duplicated one of the docs exactly, in just a few minutes with the default settings of Microsoft Word.

Microsoft Word has had a few revisions since then, and you probably couldn’t reproduce that doc the same way with the latest version. That’s how distinctive the “font fingerprint” is.

I have occasionally been reduced to slack-jawed amazement at hearing FELLOW SCIENTISTS spouting the worst wish-fulfillment/confirmation bias horseshit about their own results, or ones they wanted to be true, and we’re supposed to be the ultimate in skepticism. So, the fact that there are still supposedly intelligent people who won’t believe the obvious saddens, but no longer surprises me.

337 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:13:51pm

re: #335 Balfour Rage

That’s not all. The wingnuts are in orgasmic glee at FLOTUS’s expression. I also saw them in a feeding frenzy over her switching seats with Obama, like she was all suspicious that the Dutch PM was trying to “get her man.” Or something. It’s so fucking pathetic.

Wait, I thought Obama was supposed to be a closeted gay guy, and Michele is his beard?

Oh, well - it’s not supposed to make sense.

338 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:13:57pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Not surprising. UK athiests/secularists have a different set of troubles than we have in America. This is the latest topic of debate.

It’s shameful that our universities have accepted gender segregation under pressure from the most oppressive religious fanatics

[Embedded content]

That’s outrageous. If Muslims want segregation of the sexes, let them open their own universities.

When in Rome…

339 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:16:22pm

re: #336 GeneJockey

I have occasionally been reduced to slack-jawed amazement at hearing FELLOW SCIENTISTS spouting the worst wish-fulfillment/confirmation bias horseshit about their own results, or ones they wanted to be true, and we’re supposed to be the ultimate in skepticism. So, the fact that there are still supposedly intelligent people who won’t believe the obvious saddens, but no longer surprises me.

It has occurred to me that human minds are very rich and complicated ecosystems for memes. With hundreds of millions of minds in the US alone, almost any meme can find some minds to thrive in, no matter how bizarre. This is why we should be skeptical of any idea lacking in support from empirical evidence, because we may find an idea convincing merely because it fits well in our minds.

340 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:17:30pm

Welp. Thank GOD for the Establishment Clause and the 1st Amendment. :D

341 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:17:55pm

re: #337 GeneJockey

What’s sad about that, is that over the turkey, one of my crazy uncles tried to show me without any hint of humor or sarcasm, LOOK!!!! IT’S OBAMA’S SECRET GAY LOVER!!!!! on youtube. The accuser is some way wacked-out criminal.

342 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:18:22pm
343 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:18:51pm

re: #317 Kragar

OFFS

Just Megyn Kelly workin’ those TV sets whisperin’ sweet nothings for a few bucks.

344 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:19:02pm

I officially retired today at noon! I start a new life today.
I went to the lodge and said goodbye…No one that I know believes I’m going to chase my dreams and move to the North Woods next week.
I’m going through the ice, snow and mess and I can’t wait.
Next week I’ll be posting from Indiana waiting for the window of weather to break for the 12 hour run to the house.
When I get there I’m stocking up with food.. You know, enough to make doomsday preppers look like crybaby bitches…All we need is a 2 day Window and nobody can believe I’m doing this thing.

345 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:19:06pm

re: #338 Justanotherhuman

That’s outrageous. If Muslims want segregation of the sexes, let them open their own universities.

When in Rome…

It’s an interesting debate, the video is worth watching. I can see both sides have their merits but in the end I think the religious fundamentalists are exploiting liberal social values as a tool to advance restrictive religious practices. Kind of a neat trick if you think about it.

346 GeneJockey  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:19:50pm

re: #339 aagcobb

It has occurred to me that human minds are very rich and complicated ecosystems for memes. With hundreds of millions of minds in the US alone, almost any meme can find some minds to thrive in, no matter how bizarre. This is why we should be skeptical of any idea lacking in support from empirical evidence, because we may find an idea convincing merely because it fits well in our minds.

I was very proud of my son when I defined Confirmation Bias to him, using the example of the ‘Kenyan Birth Certificates’, and he said, “But aren’t WE vulnerable to it, too?”

Yer damn right we are! That’s why you ALWAYS question anything that seems too perfect, whether it be the gay waitress who claimed she was stiffed, or the Cruz/Castro hug! Do not commit to that which you can’t prove.

347 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:20:05pm

re: #340 Gus

Welp. Thank GOD for the Establishment Clause and the 1st Amendment. :D

This you???
uncle-grandpa.wikia.com
/

348 erik_t  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:22:05pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

I officially retired today at noon! I start a new life today.
I went to the lodge and said goodbye…No one that I know believes I’m going to chase my dreams and move to the North Woods next week.

Where up north? Going to go hang with dopefish?

349 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:23:12pm

re: #347 Varek Raith

This you???
uncle-grandpa.wikia.com
/

I’m prone to making faces though.

350 Balfour Rage  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:23:58pm

From today’s shoot. Astronaut!

Image: photo-5.JPG

351 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:24:44pm

re: #253 Decatur Deb

Rubber training aids. It’s probably a drill.

That photo is a video still from a training video that the NYPD uses in stop and frisk training.

352 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:25:42pm

re: #254 FemNaziBitch

FLORAL!!!!!

It’s a girl.

My oldest son and I watched a baby giraffe being born at the Houston zoo many years ago. The mother doesn’t/can’t bend down very far, so the baby has a bit of a drop to the ground. Baby is pretty much all legs at that point.

353 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:26:06pm

re: #349 Gus

I’m prone to making faces though.

If you keep making that face, it’ll stick.

354 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:26:17pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

Congratulations!

355 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:26:19pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

I officially retired today at noon! I start a new life today.
I went to the lodge and said goodbye…No one that I know believes I’m going to chase my dreams and move to the North Woods next week.
I’m going through the ice, snow and mess and I can’t wait.
Next week I’ll be posting from Indiana waiting for the window of weather to break for the 12 hour run to the house.
When I get there I’m stocking up with food.. You know, enough to make doomsday preppers look like crybaby bitches…All we need is a 2 day Window and nobody can believe I’m doing this thing.

Congratulations!

356 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:26:55pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

It’s an interesting debate, the video is worth watching. I can see both sides have their merits but in the end I think the religious fundamentalists are exploiting liberal social values as a tool to advance restrictive religious practices. Kind of a neat trick if you think about it.

Well, as an atheist, I’m not liberal about that kind of exploitation.

Having said that, I would never visit a country ruled by religious practices that demanded I shed my rights as a free person at the border, either.

It’s why I stand by the requirement in the US that Muslim women cannot cover their faces on their driver’s license. If they live in this country, they’re under an obligation to follow our laws, even when it conflicts with their religion.

357 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:26:59pm

re: #351 lawhawk

That photo is a video still from a training video that the NYPD uses in stop and frisk training.

Plus they stopped and frisked a white guy. Clearly a training film. :O

358 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:27:08pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

Go on with your bad self!

359 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:32:28pm

Its finally happened, Uruguay has become the first nation to completely legalize pot.

360 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:33:09pm

re: #348 erik_t

Where up north? Going to go hang with dopefish?

have
Dopefish is cool.. I have a Lakehouse on Lake Tomahawk, Wi. It is paradise.
We have some big time sportsman fishing to do this spring in my new boat.
( Ok..I really don’t know how to drive boat that well.or fish..But damn it..This is why I am retiring early )

361 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:33:31pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

Rock the life dude!

362 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:33:53pm

Gus,

Off course this isn’t going to put an end to all the people being upset with Obama for shaking hands with Raul Castro. As far as the Obama haters are concerned Obama is evil, and if he’s ever nice to a tyrant, even in the rare occasions that he has a very good reason to be, he’ll be attack by them for it.

363 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:35:21pm

re: #362 CriticalDragon1177

Gus,

Off course this isn’t going to put an end to all the people being upset with Obama for shaking hands with Raul Castro. As far as the Obama haters are concerned Obama is evil, and if he’s ever nice to a tyrant, even in the rare occasions that he has a very good reason to be, he’ll be attack by them for it.

They might have been less upset by the handshake if the President and Raul hadn’t also gotten engaged.//

364 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:35:26pm

re: #362 CriticalDragon1177

Gus,

Off course this isn’t going to put an end to all the people being upset with Obama for shaking hands with Raul Castro. As far as the Obama haters are concerned Obama is evil, and if he’s ever nice to a tyrant, even in the rare occasions that he has a very good reason to be, he’ll be attack by them for it.

Oh I know. That’s one reason my Tweets are tongue and cheek. I’m sure by now I’m a communist sympathizer and Castro follower with the usual suspects. Oops, wait, I already am. :D

365 sagehen  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:37:25pm

re: #359 aagcobb

Its finally happened, Uruguay has become the first nation to completely legalize pot.

In related news, Uruguay’s youth hostels and campgrounds are fully booked for the next 18 months. Hotel rooms still available, at competitive prices.

366 ObserverArt  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:37:30pm

re: #324 Charles Johnson

That’s all true, but more than that — even if you tried to produce a document with one of these hypothetical typesetting typewriters that wouldn’t have been found anywhere near a Texas Air National Guard base, there’s STILL no way you could produce something that looks like the CBS documents. The fonts these high-end machines used were not the same fonts we use today, and anyone trying to duplicate the CBS docs this way would immediately discover that the spacing, kerning, leading, line breaks, tab stops, etc. were not even close.

And I duplicated one of the docs exactly, in just a few minutes with the default settings of Microsoft Word.

Microsoft Word has had a few revisions since then, and you probably couldn’t reproduce that doc the same way with the latest version. That’s how distinctive the “font fingerprint” is.

What the hell is a typesetting typewriter??? Would that be a classic Linotype which is almost as big as a punch press or a classic milling machine and about as heavy?

367 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:42:13pm

I’m really fucking pissed I didn’t get to see the speech live and I’m even more pissed that I turned on Rachel on the drive home to hear her open her show with bullshit about Obama shaking Raul Castro’s hand and McCain comparing him to Hitler. Yes, that was all that was said, then she moved on to the do nothing Congress, but don’t fucking mention the speech if you’re just going to squeeze in a quick jab at some shit-heel ex-war hero with a hair up his ass who should have retired from the Senate 10 years ago.

368 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:43:46pm

re: #356 Justanotherhuman

Well, as an atheist, I’m not liberal about that kind of exploitation.

I’ve gone back and forth about this kind of thing over the years. Here in the US I’m pretty sure Muslim student groups are allowed to rent a university venue and hold a segregated private event. There was a recent dust up here in the US about a public pool having some women’s only hours to accommodate Muslim swimmers. I do think people should assimilate to American values but I don’t think our society is under threat if some people have some goofy religious restrictions. I think we’re strong enough to accommodate them. In the UK the debate is a bit more heated because the associated problems are a bit more serious.

369 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:45:46pm

re: #367 darthstar

I’m really fucking pissed I didn’t get to see the speech live and I’m even more pissed that I turned on Rachel on the drive home to hear her open her show with bullshit about Obama shaking Raul Castro’s hand and McCain comparing him to Hitler. Yes, that was all that was said, then she moved on to the do nothing Congress, but don’t fucking mention the speech if you’re just going to squeeze in a quick jab at some shit-heel ex-war hero with a hair up his ass who should have retired from the Senate 10 years ago.

I think that shows everything wrong with our media that we have focus on a butthurt senator upset that the president shook the President of Cuba’s hand while per Gus’s photos in this page we have him shaking hands with Qaddafi and not focusing on the first black president of one nation paying tribute to another. It just sucks and unfortunately I don’t see it getting better. I personally thought McCain lost any real credibility when he started embracing Falwell in the 2008 primaries after having called them out in 2000 when he ran.

370 darthstar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:46:07pm
371 Stanley Sea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:46:49pm

re: #344 HoosierHoops

CONGRATULATIONS!

372 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:47:09pm

re: #361 Political AtheisIt’m

Rock the life dude!

I’m pretty sure after all the shots at the lodge..I’m drunk.
I had tears in my eyes tonight..Everyone is so happy and jealous of me..I have done nothing in my life to deserve this new life.. Nothing at all.. I have earned nothing.. The Metlife check from my parents passing is the basis of this. I have done nothing.. OK I was crying like a little bitch but how many shots can a man do? LOL
As God is my witness..I would do or give anything to bring Mom and Dad back..Just for one more minute…

373 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:52:17pm

re: #372 HoosierHoops

I’m pretty sure after all the shots at the lodge..I’m drunk.
I had tears in my eyes tonight..Everyone is so happy and jealous of me..I have done nothing in my life to deserve this new life.. Nothing at all.. I have earned nothing.. The Metlife check from my parents passing is the basis of this. I have done nothing.. OK I was crying like a little bitch but how many shots can a man do? LOL
As God is my witness..I would do or give anything to bring Mom and Dad back..Just for one more minute…

I get that. My Mom who I lost at 34 years old had taught me this- Time is short, “miss me well” which meant love her forever and never let the sad get in the way of the joy. Celebrate our parents with a well lived life. Do I sound trite? Maybe. But I get it.

374 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:52:19pm

re: #242 chadu

Dear Lord, if they ever read up on Sparta… The institutionalized homosexual and pedophilic sexual abuse might give them pause.

…

Or not.

They’ll just blame the liberal Athenian media for skewed reporting.
/

375 Egregious Philbin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:54:15pm

re: #204 Mattand

He even praised Mandela.

Freepers have already cannibalized him, no one will ever meet the extremists litmus tests.

Circular firing squad, get a good seat and bring popcorn, it’s gonna be comedy gold.

376 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:55:13pm
377 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:55:44pm
378 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 6:56:13pm

re: #375 Egregious Philbin

He even praised Mandela.

Freepers have already cannibalized him, no one will ever meet the extremists litmus tests.

Circular firing squad, get a good seat and bring popcorn, it’s gonna be comedy gold.

Yikes if Cruz isn’t good enough, I don’t know who the hell is. Steve King perhaps? But I’m sure even King made the “mistake” of not being an insufferable douchebag aka “principled conservative” once in his career.

379 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:00:44pm

re: #342 Gus

[Embedded content]

Hilary is thinking “God, that man!” I mean about Bush.

380 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:01:12pm

re: #378 HappyWarrior

Yikes if Cruz isn’t good enough, I don’t know who the hell is.

Did you say Beetlejuice?

“I’m conservative Congressman Steve Stockman, and I am running for United States Senate against liberal John Cornyn.

I am honored to be called the most fearless conservative in Congress, and proud of my perfect 100% lifetime conservative rating. I am leading the fight for our values.

But John Cornyn wakes up every morning and works to make the Senate a more liberal place.”
stockman2014.com

381 People For The Ethical Treatment Of Sarah Palin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:01:57pm

re: #265 Kragar

I never understood Hollywood armor for women.
“No matter what, make sure it protects my luscious t***s!”

382 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:02:02pm
“Dear patriot,

You are in a foxhole fighting to save our constitutional Republic…

…and the last thing you need is a Republican bayonet in your back.

But that’s what liberal John Cornyn has been doing to you every day.”

383 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:02:20pm

re: #380 jaunte

Did you say Beetlejuice?

liberal John Cornyn. *drops jaw*

384 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:02:36pm

re: #383 HappyWarrior

Comedy gold!

385 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:03:18pm

Behold the new throne of the Feline Overlords!

Image: Cat_Tree.jpg

386 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:04:04pm

re: #384 jaunte

Comedy gold!

Yep, if his campaign style is anything like the passive aggressive whiny tweets his staff posts on Twitter. I guess I shouldn’t act too surprised. After all, I have lived to see a day where Ken Cuccinelli is deemed insufficiently conservative by the TPCAPC-True Principled Conservatives Awesome People Club

387 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:05:22pm

The people whining about Obama shaking Raul Castro’s hand can’t find Cuba on a map.

388 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:05:58pm

re: #181 klys

I’m going to turn the question around here: why would it be acceptable to attack someone’s service because they decided, based on that experience, to support efforts to end the war?

I didn’t say it was. I was asking what the catalyst for the attacks was, not if they were justified.

389 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:10:09pm

Puerto Rico always throws them off. //

390 Lord of the Pies  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:11:11pm
391 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:12:28pm

re: #326 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Now that was a long exposure, I’m sure :) Probably 10 ~ 15 minutes based on the speed of dry plate emulsions then. Of course, someone could pull up in their carriage, load or unload, pull away and make no impact on the exposure because they wouldn’t be there long enough to matter :)

392 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:13:40pm

re: #390 Lord of the Pies

[Embedded content]

Those old Nokias were durable, its a fact. I once saw one of that very model that still worked after being chewed by a large dog.

393 klys  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:14:05pm

re: #388 Dark_Falcon

I didn’t say it was. I was asking what the catalyst for the attacks was, not if they were justified.

I think it’s pretty clear that the catalyst for the attacks was the part where Kerry was running for President.

394 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:15:11pm

re: #373 Political Atheist

I get that. My Mom who I lost at 34 years old had taught me this- Time is short, “miss me well” which mean proudly carried t love her forever and never let the sad get in the way of the joy. Celebrate our parents with a well lived life. Do I sound trite? Maybe. But I get it.

Before I pass out.. My Lord it’s only 9pm.. Too many shots..What is that stuff with gold flakes in it? Gold something…too many..
My folks adopted me at 12 but i can’t forget the love they had for me.
One day we were playing baseball with all the neighbor kids and I threw a fit. My mom called me to the other side of the building and pinned me against the wall and dressed me up and down. No matter how good of an athlete I was.. If I ever acted that way as her son..She was going to take me out..I was pretty sure that was a threat on my life but.. As I looked mom in the eye I promised to be a good boy…Whew..That woman was serious. Every Mother’s Day from that day till the end.. I was my Mother’s Caddy at many a golf courses. I proudly carried Mom’s clubs.

395 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:15:47pm

re: #377 Charles Johnson

That’s a good monitor too.

396 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:16:13pm
397 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:17:06pm

re: #396 Gus

It just shows you how sneaky Liberals can be.

398 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:17:40pm

re: #397 jaunte

It just shows you how sneaky Liberals can be.

John Cornyn. Stealth liberal!

399 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:18:35pm

re: #398 Gus

“Well, I’m sick and tired of being bayoneted in the back by someone in my own foxhole.”
— Steve Stockman
stockman2014.com

400 People For The Ethical Treatment Of Sarah Palin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:18:52pm

re: #393 klys

I was confused at first as to why they went after him so viciously, but after 2008, and the crazy started leaking out every where, I realized, these people were just a wingnut prototype.

401 People For The Ethical Treatment Of Sarah Palin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:19:45pm

re: #373 Political Atheist

Omg. That made me tear up. Your Mother was lucky to have you.

402 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:20:25pm

re: #394 HoosierHoops

Jagermeister.

403 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:20:39pm

re: #399 jaunte

“Well, I’m sick and tired of being bayoneted in the back by someone in my own foxhole.”
— Steve Stockman, self-harmer

He’s soooooo weird.

404 Stanley Sea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:21:58pm

re: #402 prairiefire

Jagermeister.

Goldschlager.

Probably really bad for you.

405 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:22:49pm

re: #399 jaunte

“Well, I’m sick and tired of being bayoneted in the back by someone in my own foxhole.”
— Steve Stockman
stockman2014.com

Says a guy who never served in the military.

406 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:23:31pm

re: #399 jaunte

“Well, I’m sick and tired of being bayoneted in the back by someone in my own foxhole.”
— Steve Stockman
stockman2014.com

No one’s stabbing you in the back, Steve. Senator Cornyn just understands that you’re a lunatic, that’s all.

407 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:23:52pm

re: #356 Justanotherhuman

Well, as an atheist, I’m not liberal about that kind of exploitation.

Having said that, I would never visit a country ruled by religious practices that demanded I shed my rights as a free person at the border, either.

It’s why I stand by the requirement in the US that Muslim women cannot cover their faces on their driver’s license. If they live in this country, they’re under an obligation to follow our laws, even when it conflicts with their religion.

Haven’t seen much of the Christians in the US wanting to follow the law in relation to health care mandates.

408 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:24:26pm

re: #405 Kragar

Says a guy who never served in the military.

He’s a True Patriot, that’s all that matters!

409 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:25:16pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

A question for the group: Would Kerry have been vulnerable to being attacked for his war record had he not engaged in major anti-war activities after coming home? Because the real beef never seemed to me his war service; That service was maligned because of what Kerry did after he came home. But that’s a partial opinion of mine, not a formed conclusion, and I’d like the group’s input.

I need to leave soon, but you reply after I leave I’ll read it in a couple hours when I return.

You’re basically acknowledging that conservatives are intrinsically intellectually and morally bankrupt. Of course in the conservative mind the real issue was Kerry’s daring to speak out against the Vietnam war after having served and speaking out against the Iraq war at all, vs. the legions of chickenhawks who, from a position of never having served, advocated continuing the pointless sacrifice of servicemen in Iraq.

The catalyst, if you want to call it that, was the malignant seed at the center of the modern conservative gang mentality. Kerry’s bravery in speaking out against the Vietnam War was just the flimsiest of pretextual excuses. Incapable of dealing with his record head on, conservatives decided to project their own evil onto him, to tear him down on fictional charges barbarity and cowardice that reflected their own desired policies of war, torture and sick, gutless voyeurism.

410 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:26:40pm

Tea party activist: Obamanauts will stage false flag financial collapse to prevent impeachment

Jerome Corsi, a tea party activist and World Net Daily senior staff reporter, predicted Monday that a financial meltdown would be staged to keep President Barack Obama in power.

“Oh, they’ll stage something,” he told Alex Jones during an interview. “There is no doubt they are going to stage something. What’s ready to happen, the next I think false flag or crisis on the horizon is the bursting of the stock bubble. This is another stock market bubble, just like the dot com bubble burst. Then you had the housing market bubble burst. Both manufactured bubbles, both engineered by the private bankers, the central bank.”

Plus he throws in the trans-pacific/atlantic deals and Iran.

411 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:28:30pm

sometimes i get to do programming, and then on the other hand sometimes all i do is un-programming

412 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:29:36pm

re: #410 Kragar

Then you had the housing market bubble burst. Both manufactured bubbles, both engineered by the private bankers, the central bank.”

yah sure i read all about it in the protocols of the elders of zion yanno…

413 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:29:54pm

re: #404 Stanley Sea

Goldschlager.
Probably really bad for you.

That’s it! An endless shower of pleasure.. Stanley..I think there is a hangover awaiting me..I did stop but maybe not soon enough..In the next 48 hours If I cry just kick sand in my face..I deserve it…I’m having fun

414 People For The Ethical Treatment Of Sarah Palin  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:30:01pm

re: #410 Kragar

Yes, a true “statesman” there. “Dagnabit, they’ll stage somethin’, you’ll see!11!!1”

415 Mentis Fugit  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:32:16pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

Those old Nokias were durable, its a fact. I once saw one of that very model that still worked after being chewed by a large dog.

I dropped one in a bucket of paint - acrylic, not enamel, but even so - and after a good flushing out it still worked. The ringer could only make a sound like a constipated rattlesnake, but even that came right after a few weeks.

Didn’t even take the battery out before power-washing it.

416 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:32:40pm

re: #409 goddamnedfrank

You’re basically acknowledging that conservatives are intrinsically intellectually and morally bankrupt. Of course in the conservative mind the real issue was Kerry’s daring to speak out against the Vietnam war after having served and the Iraq war at all, vs. the legions of chickenhawks who, from a position of never having served, advocated continuing the pointless sacrifice of servicemen in Iraq.

The catalyst, if you want to call it that, was the malignant seed at the center of the modern conservative gang mentality. Kerry’s bravery in speaking out against the Vietnam was was just the flimsiest of pretextual excuses. Incapable of dealing with his record head on, conservatives decided to project their own evil onto him, to tear him down on fictional charges barbarity and cowardice that reflected their own desired policies of war, torture and sick, gutless voyeurism.

Right, and I strongly disagree with the idea that Kerry was attacked for his anti-war activities only. I remember the mocking of his Purple Heart awards which was done at the RNC no less or the claims that the men who served under him who spoke highly of him as an officer were lying. You’re exactly right here, Frank. What you mention was what the core of what the attacks on Kerry were and let’s no forget that Kerry wasn’t the first veteran whose service conservatives have gone after. You didn’t hear a word from prominent conservatives when Ann Coulter mocked Max Cleland.

417 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:34:16pm

re: #410 Kragar

Tea party activist: Obamanauts will stage false flag financial collapse to prevent impeachment

Plus he throws in the trans-pacific/atlantic deals and Iran.

Doesn’t Corsi have a shitty hit piece to write on 2016’s Democratic nominee? Interesting that Secretary Kerry’s been mentioned tonight since Corsi is the one who co-wrote the hit piece on Kerry in 2004.

418 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:35:10pm

re: #413 HoosierHoops

Drink some water, tomorrow will hurt less. :-)

419 Stanley Sea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:36:58pm

re: #418 Political Atheist

Drink some water, tomorrow will hurt less. :-)

Some water? Don’t stop at a gallon Hoops!

420 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:37:21pm

re: #418 Political Atheist

Drink some water, tomorrow will hurt less. :-)

Multivitamin & two aspirin as well as a big drink of water :) Really helps.

421 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:37:23pm

re: #418 Political Atheist

Drink some water, tomorrow will hurt less. :-)

Food helps.

422 jaunte  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:39:52pm

re: #418 Political Atheist

Drink some water, tomorrow will hurt less. :-)

Lots of water.

423 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:40:19pm

re: #421 Gus

If he ate it earlier….

424 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:40:48pm

re: #420 William Barnett-Lewis

Multivitamin & two aspirin as well as a big drink of water :) Really helps.

take two asprin and call me a moron

425 dog philosopher  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:42:07pm

Goldschlager

i’ll show you some schlagging

426 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:45:26pm

re: #419 Stanley Sea

Some water? Don’t stop at a gallon Hoops!

Admit it.. I’m completely trashed.. maybe as bad as my College Graduation party and I’m just going to sign off..mmm. Maybe just pass out…
Albeit.. How many sober people brought demise upon themselves?
Good night my friends…

427 Stanley Sea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:45:38pm
428 fern01  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:50:48pm

re: #379 prairiefire

Hilary is thinking “God, that man!” I mean about Bush.

I saw it live - Hillary was watching/listening to the memorial events - the others were not - I don’t think the look was solely directed at GWB

429 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:52:17pm

re: #426 HoosierHoops

Admit it.. I’m completely trashed.. maybe as bad as my College Graduation party and I’m just going to sign off..mmm. Maybe just pass out…
Albeit.. How many sober people brought demise upon themselves?
Good night my friends…

It’s a sanity break to see someone do well and in a humble & kind way. Sleep well.

430 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 7:54:20pm
431 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:09:51pm

re: #430 Gus

I’m waiting for at least one republican to claim that this proves that he’s a secret communist.

432 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:11:29pm

re: #431 CriticalDragon1177

I’m waiting for at least one republican to claim that this proves that he’s a secret communist.

Oh many wingnuts have already.

433 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:12:11pm

re: #432 Gus

Oh many wingnuts have already.

He’s got a secret ring!

434 sagehen  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:12:44pm

Anybody watching “Sons of Anarchy”?

435 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:14:22pm

Have a great evening all!

436 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:14:34pm

re: #428 fern01

I saw it live - Hillary was watching/listening to the memorial events - the others were not - I don’t think the look was solely directed at GWB

Just kidding.

437 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:16:07pm

re: #433 Kragar

He’s got a secret ring!

He got it when he graduated from someplace in that Commie blue state Maryland!

438 Kragar  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:20:40pm

“This man led a very active life…”
“He’s got a squirrel in his stomach!”

Oh MST3k, you crazy.

439 Tim TeaBro  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:21:58pm

This thread is epically epical LULZ.

Well played.

440 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:32:13pm
441 Stanley Sea  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:39:23pm

re: #440 Gus

[Embedded content]

And with that perfect ending, I’m out!

442 Gus  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:41:16pm

re: #441 Stanley Sea

And with that perfect ending, I’m out!

Me too. ‘Night all.

443 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:41:22pm

Congratz on the retirement Hoops. You will love the north woods. My wifes tribe is up there. Lots of fishing, boating and sightseeing. Enjoy man!! If you have any questions about the state feel free to ask if you want.

444 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:49:09pm

re: #438 Kragar

“This man led a very active life…”
“He’s got a squirrel in his stomach!”

Oh MST3k, you crazy.

“Crocodile Dundee?”
“Not a knife.”
“Thank you, sir.”

445 jogiff  Wed, Dec 11, 2013 5:24:28pm

I don’t really have a problem with Churchill shaking Stalin’s hand. The real problem is that that disrespectful commie, Roosevelt, is remaining seated.

Hasn’t he ever heard of respect?


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