Judge Rules NSA Phone Program “Likely Unconstitutional”

“Appears to violate”
US News • Views: 20,801

A federal district court judge ruled today that the NSA’s telephone metadata collection program within the United States is “likely to be unconstitutional.”

U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon found that the program appears to violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. He also said the Justice Department had failed to demonstrate that collecting the so-called metadata had helped to head off terrorist attacks.

Acting on a lawsuit brought by conservative legal activist Larry Klayman, Leon issued a preliminary injunction barring the NSA from collecting metadata pertaining to the Verizon accounts of Klayman and one of his clients. However, the judge stayed the order to allow for an appeal.

I ain’t no lawyer, but this language — “appears to violate,” “likely unconstitutional” — seems pretty weak, and it doesn’t mean very much unless and until the Supreme Court makes a more definite ruling.

But one thing I can predict: now that he’s sort-of won, Larry Klayman will be even more of a far right jackass.

Also see
Larry Klayman | Right Wing Watch

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277 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:27:44pm
” now that he’s sort-of won, Larry Klayman will be even more of a jackass.”

Yeah, pretty much

2 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:29:12pm
3 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:31:07pm

“Appears to violate”? “Likely unconstitutional”? Seems like a pretty weak sauce ruling to me. Almost seems like a judge who either didn’t want to be bothered to actually put his name on a more definitive ruling or just wanted the damn case out of his courtroom.

4 erik_t  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:32:43pm

And so then, perhaps the NSA’s program will be put on administrative hiatus pending legal review as provided for in the system of checks and balances established in the Constitution, JUST LIKE STALIN AND 1984 AND HITLER!!!!1

5 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:33:05pm

Larry Klayman? Oh, now it makes sense. Basically we have ourselves a NSA while black lawsuit.

6 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:34:21pm

If the case wasn’t heard at a court convened at a Denny’s restaurant, the ruling is invalid…

//

7 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:35:21pm
8 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:37:24pm

My issues do not stop with the Fourth Amendment re illegal search and seizure, they also stem from the First Amendment: the right to petition for the redress of grievances.

But if it is a clandestine program and you do not know who is doing what to you, how can you petition for redress if you are aggrieved?

I have not seen much of this issue being discussed.

9 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:40:06pm

Then again, I could wrong and it might not be the judge just wanting the case out of his courtroom, but plausibly a judge who made a personal judgment, but lacks any real constitutional or legal precedent to make it stick. So he’s making a half-assed argument that it’s “likely” unconstitutional and then passing the buck up.

10 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:40:13pm

Congratulations Greenwald rat-fuckers.

11 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:42:03pm

re: #8 Sol Berdinowitz

My issues do not stop with the Fourth Amendment re illegal search and seizure, they also stem from the First Amendment: the right to petition for the redress of grievances.

But if it is a clandestine program and you do not know who is doing what to you, how can you petition for redress if you are aggrieved?

I have not seen much of this issue being discussed.

Sol,

I had never thought to consider it from that perspective, but you’re right on the money in my opinion. How can one object to what one can not be allowed to know? It’s a relative of a page PA posted, on the No Fly List Secret Trial (so secret they might not even tell the person challenging the NFL what the verdict was).

Thanks for giving me something to mull on as I drive home tonight.

RBS

12 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:44:08pm

Interesting. If the thread title includes the word “Facebook” the filter software here at work blocks access to the page.

Corporate-imposed exile for most of the day. Suffering commenting withdrawl symptoms.

13 Ace-o-aces  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:44:25pm
But one thing I can predict: now that he’s sort-of won, Larry Klayman will be even more of a jackass.

Klayman is like an idiot savant when it come to lawsuits. Sure, he might be a drooling, tin-foil hat wearing wingnut 90% of the time, but when he needs to he can put together a well reasoned legal brief.

14 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:45:41pm

Of course, they will celebrate over a ruling that will never be settled law…

BTW, Judge Leon was appt’d by GWB in 2001, confirmed in 2002, and is an adjunct professor at GG’s alma mater, GWU.

15 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:46:20pm

There’s an assumption from the dudebros that the NSA has the time and resources to filter through billions of emails, tweets, FB posts, and Google searches daily and that they know everything about everyone every second of every day. How is that possible?

I mean, there are real issues of privacy and civil liberties to discuss, and I despise the Patriot Act with the fire of a thousand suns, but there’s so much bullshit flying around online about the NSA it’s hard to know what the truth is.

16 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:49:23pm

re: #15 Lidane

There’s an assumption from the dudebros that the NSA has the time and resources to filter through billions of emails, tweets, FB posts, and Google searches daily and that they know everything about everyone every second of every day. How is that possible?

I mean, there are real issues of privacy and civil liberties to discuss, and I despise the Patriot Act with the fire of a thousand suns, but there’s so much bullshit flying around online about the NSA it’s hard to know what the truth is.

On popular TV shows like NCIS, CSI and “Criminal Minds” the show’s “geeks” are always pulling up entire dossiers, including sealed juvie records, on “persons of interest” without a split second’s thought of “Hey don’t we like need a warrant for this?”

17 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:51:01pm
18 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:51:57pm

Here’s the text of the 68-page ruling Klayman v. Obama (13-cv-881).

What the ruling does:

Leon granted a temporary injunction blocking the government from collecting that information from the Verizon Wireless accounts of plaintiffs Larry Klayman and Charles Strange and requiring the U.S. to destroy any such data in its possession.

“In light of the significant national security interests at stake in this case and the novelty of the constitutional issues, I will stay my order pending appeal,” Leon said in his 68-page ruling.

The decision by Leon is the first to enable a challenge to the NSA’s program. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which reviews government requests for permission to engage in electronic surveillance of suspected foreign terrorists who may be communicating with U.S. citizens, has previously said such actions are constitutional.

The judge also that the government had already discontinued some data collection in 2011:

“To the extent plaintiffs are, in fact, requesting preliminary injunctive relief regarding any alleged internet data surveillance activity, the Court need not address those claims for two reasons. First the government has represented that any bulk collection of internet metadata pursuant to Section 215 (50 USC 1861) was discontinued in 2011 [cites redacted] and therefore there is no possible ongoing harm that could be remedied by injunctive relief. Second, to the extent the plaintiffs challenge the government’s targeted collection of internet data content pursuant to Section 702 (50 USC 1881) under the so called PRISM program, which targets non-US persons located outside the US, plaintiffs have not alleged facts sufficient to show that the NSA has targeted any of their communications. Accordingly, the plaintiffs lack standing…”

The decision also finds that it lacks jurisdiction to hear the plaintiff’s APA claims that the government exceeded its authority under FISA. However, the Court found that it has authority to hear the constitutional challenge.

The threshold for a preliminary injunction is the ability to show that the plaintiffs would suffer irreparable harm absent preliminary injunctive relief. That’s why it’s fairly easy to grant relief here. At the same time, the judge denied the motion for preliminary injuctive relief under Klayman II and stayed the order pending appeal (which is all but likely).

Had the judge found significant harm, a permanent injunction would have been issued. Temporary injunction indicates that there’s a good chance that it will be overturned on appeal.

19 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:52:37pm

re: #17 Kragar

[Embedded content]

“Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said Monday he would file cloture on several more of President Obama’s executive and judicial nominees.”

thehill.com

20 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:54:05pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Thanks! That confirms my non-lawyeristic impression that it’s a pretty weak ruling.

21 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:56:37pm

re: #8 Sol Berdinowitz

My issues do not stop with the Fourth Amendment re illegal search and seizure, they also stem from the First Amendment: the right to petition for the redress of grievances.

But if it is a clandestine program and you do not know who is doing what to you, how can you petition for redress if you are aggrieved?

I have not seen much of this issue being discussed.

The problem is that if you have any sort of public hearing you run the real risk of revealing how the US handles intelligence matters to our enemies.

22 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:57:44pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

Some of the issues have already been rendered moot by the Administration’s changes to the NSA surveillance policy, and others are more difficult for the plaintiffs to prove that they were harmed - they’re not part of the class of individuals being surveilled.

I read this as a case where they’re nibbling around the edges, but they’re not going to get a rollback on the NSA programs that Klayman or Greenwald wish for. There are compelling national security concerns, and while they might be able to tailor the program better and provide more oversight, the NSA will continue to gather intel by all the means at its disposal.

23 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:59:08pm

re: #22 lawhawk

Some of the issues have already been rendered moot by the Administration’s changes to the NSA surveillance policy, and others are more difficult for the plaintiffs to prove that they were harmed - they’re not part of the class of individuals being surveilled.

I read this as a case where they’re nibbling around the edges, but they’re not going to get a rollback on the NSA programs that Klayman or Greenwald wish for. There are compelling national security concerns, and while they might be able to tailor the program better and provide more oversight, the NSA will continue to gather intel by all the means at its disposal.

So would you agree that this was a judge basically tossing Klayman a bone, knowing that it’s likely not to survive appeal?

24 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:59:39pm

Here’s an article about the judge from two years ago. The guy that wrote it is not an admirer. Goes back to Iran-Contra. A tiny excerpt:

Some Americans might see Richard Leon’s partisan attacks on the October Surprise witnesses - and his role in distorting U.S. history - as disqualifying for a federal judgeship, but his actions actually paved the way for his appointment.

25 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 12:59:59pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

These are the kinds of hearings that can and are held behind closed doors. Congress has methods for having closed door sessions to handle classified/sensitive data. It enables them and the agencies being questioned to share that data/information about sensitive programs without having it easily fall into the public domain through the open hearing process.

26 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:00:46pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Here’s the text of the 68-page ruling Klayman v. Obama (13-cv-881).

What the ruling does:

The judge also that the government had already discontinued some data collection in 2011: “To the extent plaintiffs are, in fact, requesting preliminary injunctive relief regarding any alleged internet data surveillance activity, the Court need not address those claims for two reasons. First the government has represented that any bulk collection of internet metadata pursuant to Section 215 (50 USC 1861) was discontinued in 2011 [cites redacted] and therefore there is no possible ongoing harm that could be remedied by injunctive relief. Second, to the extent the plaintiffs challenge the government’s targeted collection of internet data content pursuant to Section 702 (50 USC 1881) under the so called PRISM program, which targets non-US persons located outside the US, plaintiffs have not alleged facts sufficient to show that the NSA has targeted any of their communications. Accordingly, the plaintiffs lack standing…”

The decision also finds that it lacks jurisdiction to hear the plaintiff’s APA claims that the government exceeded its authority under FISA. However, the Court found that it has authority to hear the constitutional challenge.

The threshold for a preliminary injunction is the ability to show that the plaintiffs would suffer irreparable harm absent preliminary injunctive relief. That’s why it’s fairly easy to grant relief here. At the same time, the judge denied the motion for preliminary injuctive relief under Klayman II and stayed the order pending appeal (which is all but likely).

Had the judge found significant harm, a permanent injunction would have been issued. Temporary injunction indicates that there’s a good chance that it will be overturned on appeal.

So, there’s nothing in the ruling against the NSA using the FISA court against Klayman and his ilk for discussing a “coup” against this govt.

Klayman is so damned dumb I can see this nothing-burger ruling emboldening him.

freakoutnation.com

27 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:02:52pm

re: #23 Targetpractice

There are parts of the NSA program that are problematic, but the Obama Administration has already been adjusting its policies over the past couple of years. Klayman’s almost playing catch up here - arguing that he’s been harmed by the NSA even as it’s been noted that the NSA has been directed to correct (as I noted above).

It’s possible that the injunction may be further tailored on appeal to fix/remedy how the NSA collects/stores information and where/how it does so re: inadvertent US collections.

But don’t expect the NSA’s collection methods to be shut down.

28 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:07:43pm

Klayman v. Obama Black President (13-cv-881)

29 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:08:37pm

TEH STUPID IT BURNSSSS IT BURNSSS PRECIOUSSS!!!!!

30 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:09:05pm
31 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:11:22pm

GG is making the rounds.

He was on NPR when I was driving earlier.

Ari Melber on MSNBC is having him on in a few minutes to comment on that District court ruling.

32 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:12:26pm
33 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:15:53pm

re: #32 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Oh I see. She’s black.

34 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:17:21pm

NICE STRAW MAN U SET UP THERE.

35 Joanne  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:17:32pm

re: #29 Lord of the Pies

TEH STUPID IT BURNSSSS IT BURNSSS PRECIOUSSS!!!!!

YoungConservative @steve0423
Follow

Liberal rape prevention kit vs conservative rape prevention kit!! #tcot #RedNationRising #UniteBlue #nerdland #MSNBC

Bullshit with a little sexism thrown in for good measure.

36 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:18:01pm

re: #30 Lord of the Pies

Not only that, but how does having a gun pointed at the rapist in front of you save you from the accomplice(s) you don’t see behind you?

Guns aren’t magical talismans that immediately save you. They’re not an instant cure.

37 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:18:39pm

re: #27 lawhawk

There are parts of the NSA program that are problematic, but the Obama Administration has already been adjusting its policies over the past couple of years. Klayman’s almost playing catch up here - arguing that he’s been harmed by the NSA even as it’s been noted that the NSA has been directed to correct (as I noted above).

It’s possible that the injunction may be further tailored on appeal to fix/remedy how the NSA collects/stores information and where/how it does so re: inadvertent US collections.

But don’t expect the NSA’s collection methods to be shut down.

I’m reading the characterization of the ruling over in the TPM comments that this is a conservative judge basically ruling against the government and granting relief under the assumption that SCOTUS will overturn decades of legal precedent to rule in Klayman’s favor.

38 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:18:58pm

re: #36 Lidane

Not only that, but how does having a gun pointed at the rapist in front of you save you from the accomplice(s) you don’t see behind you?

Guns aren’t magical talismans that immediately save you. They’re not an instant cure.

HURR HURR A GUN IS BETTER THEN A WHISSLE CAUS U CAN’T KILL SOMEBODY WITH A WISSLE!!!!!!!!!

39 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:19:30pm

re: #29 Lord of the Pies

TEH STUPID IT BURNSSSS IT BURNSSS PRECIOUSSS!!!!!

[Embedded content]

and what the hell does a woman’s “looks” have to do with rape?

40 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:19:58pm

So we expect that a woman who realizes she is about to be raped will be able to overpower her attacker long enough to draw, aim and fire a gun AND hope that she is able to incapacitate him enough with a single shot AND hope he has no accomplices?

That about right?

41 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:20:37pm

Greenwald looked like the cat that swallowed the canary when Melber called him a “reporter”.

Of course, he’s doing all these interviews from the safety of Rio de Janeiro.

42 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:20:58pm
43 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:21:42pm

re: #39 Backwoods_Sleuth

and what the hell does a woman’s “looks” have to do with rape?

Only pretty girls get raped, don’tcha know. Unless they get pregnant. Then they’re irredeemable, filthy whores that were asking for it.

44 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:21:43pm

re: #42 Lord of the Pies

Right because of COURSE the rapist will still be around to shoot when the victim comes to.

45 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:22:12pm

re: #36 Lidane

Not only that, but how does having a gun pointed at the rapist in front of you save you from the accomplice(s) you don’t see behind you?

Guns aren’t magical talismans that immediately save you. They’re not an instant cure.

There are no magic talismans, but having good situational awareness and the ability to fight back can allow a person to avoid being a victim. Guns are tools, and if used properly they can be very effective. But they are only one tool. Someone trying to drug you is countered by other tools.

46 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:22:17pm
47 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:22:17pm
48 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:23:42pm

Shit for brains decided to “follow” me.

Blocked.

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:24:00pm

Every woman should be armed on a date, and she should keep the thing cocked, loaded and pointed at the man’s head at all times.

50 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:24:24pm
51 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:24:27pm

re: #40 Eclectic Cyborg

So we expect that a woman who realizes she is about to be raped will be able to overpower her attacker long enough to draw, aim and fire a gun AND hope that she is able to incapacitate him enough with a single shot AND hope he has no accomplices?

That about right?

AND that he doesn’t have a gun himself already aimed at the victim when he surprises her, AND that he doesn’t first grab her purse and fling it out of arms reach, AND that the rapist doesn’t take the gun away from her.

Basically, the Conservative approach to any crime prevention assumes superpowers on the part of the person with the gun, to know when she’ll be attacked so that she has the gun in hand.

Oh, and for bonus points, they assume that only attractive women get raped.

52 erik_t  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:25:28pm

re: #40 Eclectic Cyborg

So we expect that a woman who realizes she is about to be raped will be able to overpower her attacker long enough to draw, aim and fire a gun AND hope that she is able to incapacitate him enough with a single shot AND hope he has no accomplices?

That about right?

And if any of that goes wrong, I’m sure the would-be rapist is not going to mind that you just waved a gun in his face.

Escalation can be a double-edged sword. Feel free to shoot his ass if he’s attacking you, I won’t deny the right of self-defense by any means, but recognize that (as said above) there is no magic talisman here.

53 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:26:20pm

“It’s an extraordinary ruling, Ari.”

Jaysus. No it isn’t, just because you say so, GG. Less than a half minute into it, he mentions Snowjob.

54 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:27:35pm

HURR HURR CONFIRMED. FACT.

55 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:27:48pm

re: #50 Lord of the Pies

[Embedded content]

56 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:27:49pm

I’m still trying to figure out how saying their should be tighter background checks on owning firearms and limits on assault weapons mean that liberals don’t think women should be able to own legal handguns for self defense.

57 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:28:56pm

No, metadata collection of the NSA couldn’t have been imagined in 1979, Judge Leon, because we didn’t have the technology for that at the time, nor did we have the proliferation of cells phones we do today. Most people still used landlines.

Haha, now that GG said that Leon isn’t a “partisan hack”, that means he probably is.

58 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:29:53pm

re: #56 Kragar

I’m still trying to figure out how saying their should be tighter background checks on owning firearms and limits on assault weapons mean that liberals don’t think women should be able to own legal handguns for self defense.

I’M wondering how there SHOULDN’T be tighter background checks on owning firearms DOESN’T mean that Conservatives think rapists should be able to own legal handguns to assist int he commission of rapes.

59 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:31:01pm

re: #42 Lord of the Pies

Or it was her gun in the first place (since most rapes are of the acquaintance variety including spouse/significant other).

60 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:31:44pm

re: #57 Justanotherhuman

Haha, now that GG said that Leon isn’t a “partisan hack”, that means he probably is.

“Partisan Hack” = Judge whose ruling you don’t like. See also “Activist Judge”.

“Not A Partisan Hack” = Judge whose ruling you DO like.

61 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:32:45pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

There are no magic talismans, but having good situational awareness and the ability to fight back can allow a person to avoid being a victim.

Sure. But nothing is foolproof. Even people who take tons of Krav Maga can get blindsided and get their asses kicked. And people with guns aren’t automatically guaranteed a save.

It’s a wide variety of factors, such as situational awareness, the ability to fight back, AND the willingness to fight dirty if you have to in order to get away. And that’s only if you’re in a one on one fight. If the odds are against you, it doesn’t matter what you’ve got handy.

Guns are tools, and if used properly they can be very effective. But they are only one tool. Someone trying to drug you is countered by other tools.

Roofies are quick, easy, and very effective. I got into a conversation with a bartender who was telling me about being on vacation with a bunch of people and he grabbed the wrong drink one day when he decided that he wanted a fruity drink instead of a beer. It was a pina colada that had been roofied. He didn’t know the drug was there. He said he immediately felt sick and went to lie down. He ended up passed out for almost an entire day.

He was pretty freaked by the experience and didn’t understand how anyone could get off on sex with someone who is passed out and who can’t remember anything. I pointed out that rape isn’t about sex. It’s about having power over someone, and what’s the greatest power over another person but having your way with their body when they’re totally unable to stop you?

Guns won’t stop that. Krav won’t stop it. Being aware of who you’re with and what’s going on around you will do more to help.

62 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:32:47pm

What GG is iterating is exactly why every person in the US (or anywhere else) doesn’t have to know what our intelligence agencies are doing.

GG and his ilk want “need to know”, “top secret”, and so forth, to be totally eliminated.

What would be the point of having intelligence agencies working to protect the country, then?

63 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:32:58pm

re: #59 lawhawk

Or it was her gun in the first place (since most rapes are of the acquaintance variety including spouse/significant other).

The statistics of reported rapes weigh heavily against the idea that the knife-wielding maniac in the shadows and in favor of the date rapist or creepy family member. And that’s rapes where the victim actually had the courage to step forward, no telling how many go unreported each year simply out of fear of society judging the victim.

64 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:34:05pm

re: #60 GeneJockey

“Partisan Hack” = Judge whose ruling you don’t like. See also “Activist Judge”.

“Not A Partisan Hack” = Judge whose ruling you DO like.

I didn’t call him a partisan hack, but he is a very conservative judge whose competence I can’t quite judge without looking at his prior rulings and where they wound up.

65 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:35:16pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

What stops THAT is good situational awareness, and possibly a small kit to test for drugs.

How about lowering the standard of proof to convict rapists?

66 erik_t  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:35:33pm

re: #62 Justanotherhuman

What GG is iterating is exactly why every person in the US (or anywhere else) doesn’t have to know what our intelligence agencies are doing.

GG and his ilk want “need to know”, “top secret”, and so forth, to be totally eliminated.

What would be the point of having intelligence agencies working to protect the country, then?

They’re just lolbertarians of a different flavor. There’s very little point in attempting to reconstruct their worldview rationally, because they didn’t really reason themselves into it to begin with.

67 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:37:02pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

The statistics of reported rapes weigh heavily against the idea that the knife-wielding maniac in the shadows and in favor of the date rapist or creepy family member. And that’s rapes where the victim actually had the courage to step forward, no telling how many go unreported each year simply out of fear of society judging the victim.

Also, fear of retaliation by the perp and/or his pals.

68 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:37:07pm

One of my wingnut friends demonstrated to me the whole nonsensical way they see things. He told me that it should be illegal for certain people to own guns, but there should be no background checks and anyone should be able to sell firearms to anyone else.

Basically, what he proposed was a prohibition for certain people with absolutely no way to enforce it.

Then there’s the belief that any “good guy with a gun” will KNOW when to pull it and threaten with it, when to shoot and whom to shoot, that they’ll be able to hit their target, that they won’t be overpowered, etc. It would never occur to them that having a gun in those situations might actually INCREASE your risk of grievous bodily harm and/or death.

69 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:37:14pm

re: #61 Lidane

Sure. But nothing is foolproof. Even people who take tons of Krav Maga can get blindsided and get their asses kicked. And people with guns aren’t automatically guaranteed a save.

It’s a wide variety of factors, such as situational awareness, the ability to fight back, AND the willingness to fight dirty if you have to in order to get away. And that’s only if you’re in a one on one fight. If the odds are against you, it doesn’t matter what you’ve got handy.

Roofies are quick, easy, and very effective. I got into a conversation with a bartender who was telling me about being on vacation with a bunch of people and he grabbed the wrong drink one day when he decided that he wanted a fruity drink instead of a beer. It was a pina colada that had been roofied. He didn’t know the drug was there. He said he immediately felt sick and went to lie down. He ended up passed out for almost an entire day.

He was pretty freaked by the experience and didn’t understand how anyone could get off on sex with someone who is passed out and who can’t remember anything. I pointed out that rape isn’t about sex. It’s about having power over someone, and what’s the greatest power over another person but having your way with their body when they’re totally unable to stop you?

Guns won’t stop that. Krav won’t stop it. Being aware of who you’re with and what’s going on around you will do more to help.

This last is the most crucial element of all. But it is burdensome to many people, since it means you can’t really “cut loose and get wasted”. But there’s nothing for it; If you want to lower your risk of being a victim, then you must accept the price to be paid for it. But that price is a lot lower than the price of being a victim.

70 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:37:43pm

Respectfully Charles I disagree. Actually that’s pretty strong language considering the source and the players. And it should be obvious-The strength of the 4th amendment is not proportionate to the credibility of complainants. Caught an interview with a couple legal scholars driving this afternoon and the consensus is that this is a major decision, stayed given the near immediate trip to SCOTUS.

71 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:39:03pm

re: #65 wrenchwench

How about lowering the standard of proof to convict rapists?

I’d have to ask you to sketch out your thought here. You need to explain what you think the legal problem is and describe your proposed reform.

72 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:40:16pm

aclu.org

ACLU ain’t no dudebro

“This is a strongly worded and carefully reasoned decision that ultimately concludes, absolutely correctly, that the NSA’s call-tracking program can’t be squared with the Constitution. As Judge Leon notes, the government’s defense of the program has relied almost entirely on a 30-year-old case that involved surveillance of a specific criminal suspect over a period of two days. The idea that this narrow precedent authorizes the government to place every American under permanent surveillance is preposterous. We hope that Judge Leon’s thoughtful ruling will inform the larger conversation about the proper scope of government surveillance powers, especially the debate in Congress about the reforms necessary to bring the NSA’s surveillance activities back in line with the Constitution. The bipartisan USA Freedom Act, which has 130 co-sponsors already, would address the constitutional problems that Judge Leon identifies.”

73 calochortus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:41:02pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

This last is the most crucial element of all. But it is burdensome to many people, since it means you can’t really “cut loose and get wasted”. But there’s nothing for it; If you want to lower your risk of being a victim, then you must accept the price to be paid for it. But that price is a lot lower than the price of being a victim.

It your drink is drugged, you don’t have to drink more than one, much less get wasted.
Also, the price of lowering your risk varies considerably depending on who you are. This is kind of a rehash of having curfews for women but not men “for their own safety”. You are taking away freedom from the potential victims but not the potential perpetrators.

edit: I’m not suggesting that people should walk down dark alleyways wearing diamonds and not expect to mugged-one should use some sense and caution-but it’s easy to blame the victim of sexual assault for being where she “shouldn’t be”.

74 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:41:32pm

re: #64 Justanotherhuman

I didn’t call him a partisan hack, but he is a very conservative judge whose competence I can’t quite judge without looking at his prior rulings and where they wound up.

I was actually responding to GG’s calling him “not a partisan hack”, not your suggesting this meant he is. It’s kind of an “Even The Liberal Washington Post” situation, where the ruling he likes makes GG think this guy is the bee’s knees, whereas the opposite ruling would have had him calling the guy all sorts of names. If anything has become obvious about GG, it’s that he bases his view of people entirely on whether they agree with him.

75 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:42:14pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

This last is the most crucial element of all. But it is burdensome to many people, since it means you can’t really “cut loose and get wasted”. But there’s nothing for it; If you want to lower your risk of being a victim, then you must accept the price to be paid for it. But that price is a lot lower than the price of being a victim.

Dark, the statistics show that most rapes involve people who the victim either was related to or was close to. I’ve never had an incident of such happen in my own family, but I’ve heard from those who have that often, the victim refuses to come forward for fear that their relatives will accuse them of lying and take the rapist’s side. In those instances, situational awareness and a gun are not much use.

76 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:43:04pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

The statistics of reported rapes weigh heavily against the idea that the knife-wielding maniac in the shadows and in favor of the date rapist or creepy family member. And that’s rapes where the victim actually had the courage to step forward, no telling how many go unreported each year simply out of fear of society judging the victim.

What she wore. How much makeup she had on. What she ate and drank. How she acted. It’s VERY easy for a rapist to get away scot free if he just raises enough slut shaming doubts to turn his victim into a whore.

For women, it really is a balancing act:

77 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:44:38pm

Gun club teaches African American youth about gun ownership, responsibility (AUDIO)

To some, giving one a firearm raises one’s level of responsibility. Conscious of the fact that one is holding a deadly weapon, even the most irresponsible person becomes more vigilant, more careful, more in tune with his/her surroundings.

One really have no choice, one’s survival now hinges on one’s ability to safely handle the firearm. Do so properly, one becomes empowered. Do so poorly, one’s at risk of unintentionally hurting or killing oneself or others.

Building off this instinctive reaction, an African-American gun club is hoping that by introducing young people to firearms and teaching them gun safety, it will set them on a path to becoming responsible citizens. The central idea is that responsible behavior at the range will beget responsible behavior back at home, in school, and out in the real world.

It’s called the Maryland 10th Cavalry Gun Club, after the famous AfAm cavalry regiment that fought at San Juan Hill 1898 and at Peking two years afterwards.

78 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:45:00pm

A gun control “expert”

79 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:46:48pm

re: #75 Targetpractice

Dark, the statistics show that most rapes involve people who the victim either was related to or was close to. I’ve never had an incident of such happen in my own family, but I’ve heard from those who have that often, the victim refuses to come forward for fear that their relatives will accuse them of lying and take the rapist’s side. In those instances, situational awareness and a gun are not much use.

And heaven help that girl if the boy she accuses of rape is a sports star or is otherwise popular in the community. No one will believe her and everyone will just call her a slut begging for attention.

80 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:47:21pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

I caught that piece on NPR the other day. I think I had a ‘driveway moment’ on it, didn’t want to go in until it was done.

RBS

81 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:47:37pm

re: #78 Kragar

A gun control “expert”

[Embedded content]

Any limits on ownership, buying and selling, or carrying = banning all guns, silly.
///

82 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:48:33pm

re: #79 Lidane

And heaven help that girl if the boy she accuses of rape is a sports star or is otherwise popular in the community. No one will believe her and everyone will just call her a slut begging for attention.

Or trying to destroy the “innocent” boy’s life. No doubt her spurned her attentions and she decided to “get back” at him over it. And what’s this, she’s underage too? Well, obviously she was a kid who didn’t understand that men can’t help themselves when flirted with.

/(Need something to take the taste of bile out my mouth)

83 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:48:40pm

re: #75 Targetpractice

Dark, the statistics show that most rapes involve people who the victim either was related to or was close to. I’ve never had an incident of such happen in my own family, but I’ve heard from those who have that often, the victim refuses to come forward for fear that their relatives will accuse them of lying and take the rapist’s side. In those instances, situational awareness and a gun are not much use.

As I said before, guns are only tools, useful in some circumstances to defend ones’ self.

84 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:49:02pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

To some, giving one a firearm raises one’s level of responsibility. Conscious of the fact that one is holding a deadly weapon, even the most irresponsible person becomes more vigilant, more careful, more in tune with his/her surroundings.

What fucking bullshit, gun fetishist, propaganda. Yes, George Killerman is proof of arming someone makes them more vigilante vigilant. Or, how about the two fucktards that shot each after a road rage incident. Yes, an armed society is a polite society. Indeed.

85 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:50:19pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

I’d have to ask you to sketch out your thought here. You need to explain what you think the legal problem is and describe your proposed reform.

It’s not a great idea. I threw it out there as my first thought to counter the problem of women being disbelieved, and rapists going free, because this

But there’s nothing for it; If you want to lower your risk of being a victim, then you must accept the price to be paid for it. But that price is a lot lower than the price of being a victim.

results in women being far more constrained than men, by men.

86 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:50:55pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

As I said before, guns are only tools, useful in some circumstances to defend ones’ self.

Operative word being “some.” As in so statistically insignificant that the majority of studies show that you’re more likely to get yourself or another person hurt while carrying a gun for “defense” than you are to prevent a potential crime.

87 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:51:04pm

re: #72 Political Atheist

aclu.org

ACLU ain’t no dudebro

ACLU is very much a dudebro, imho.

88 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:52:33pm

re: #80 RealityBasedSteve

I caught that piece on NPR the other day. I think I had a ‘driveway moment’ on it, didn’t want to go in until it was done.

RBS

The best way to prevent a boy from becoming a rapist or a thug is to reach him how to be a proper man. Discipline is a thing that needs to be learned, but once it is learned a young man is far stronger and less likely to do wrong.

89 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:52:42pm

IMO, Perceived authority is probably used as a weapon in rape cases far more often than any physical device.

90 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:52:50pm

re: #87 wrenchwench

ACLU is very much a dudebro, imho.

Must be a really wide definition. Or maybe they really are not at all.

From the Judge….

“The ubiquity of phones has dramatically altered the quantity of information that is now available and, more importantly, what that information can tell the Government about people’s lives,” the judge wrote. “I cannot possibly navigate these uncharted Fourth Amendment waters using as my North Star a case that predates the rise of cell phones.”

The judge went on to conclude that the searches involved in the NSA metadata program were likely not permissible under the Fourth Amendment in part because there was little evidence the program has actually prevented terrorism.

“I have significant doubts about the efficacy of the metadata collection program as a means of conducting time-sensitive investigations in cases involving imminent threats of terrorism,” Leon wrote. “The government does not cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature.”

Read more: politico.com

91 GlutenFreeJesus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:53:14pm

re: #54 Lord of the Pies

HURR HURR CONFIRMED. FACT.

[Embedded content]

I thought guns were magical crime PREVENTION devices.

92 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:54:57pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The best way to prevent a boy from becoming a rapist or a thug is to reach him how to be a proper man. Discipline is a thing that needs to be learned, but once it is learned a young man is far stronger and less likely to do wrong.

This comes perilously close to defining all men as potential rapists, and reducing rape to something any guy would do unless he was raised right.

93 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:55:11pm

re: #84 Dr. Matt

Read the whole thing. Neither the author nor the gun club is that sort of crazy.

94 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:55:33pm

re: #90 Political Atheist

Must be a really wide definition. Or maybe they really are not at all.

From the Judge….

“The ubiquity of phones has dramatically altered the quantity of information that is now available and, more importantly, what that information can tell the Government about people’s lives,” the judge wrote. “I cannot possibly navigate these uncharted Fourth Amendment waters using as my North Star a case that predates the rise of cell phones.”

The judge went on to conclude that the searches involved in the NSA metadata program were likely not permissible under the Fourth Amendment in part because there was little evidence the program has actually prevented terrorism.

“I have significant doubts about the efficacy of the metadata collection program as a means of conducting time-sensitive investigations in cases involving imminent threats of terrorism,” Leon wrote. “The government does not cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature.”

Read more: politico.com

So the judge’s conclusion is that the computerized system of directing calls today is nothing like that of the 70s, so obviously the two are in no way related. Seems a very serious stretch to me.

95 erik_t  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:57:07pm

re: #92 GeneJockey

This comes perilously close to defining all men as potential rapists, and reducing rape to something any guy would do unless he was raised right.

Would upding again.

What the fuck…?

96 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:57:37pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The best way to prevent a boy from becoming a rapist or a thug is to reach him how to be a proper man. Discipline is a thing that needs to be learned, but once it is learned a young man is far stronger and less likely to do wrong.

A community that supports that discipline and a popular culture that doesn’t objectify women as a simple sexual dispenser that is simply there for the mans pleasure and at his beck-and-call is required also. That takes an active roll in providing positive role models. It’s the “takes a village” thing that had the RWNJs so up in arms, but it’s no different now than than, when I was growing up I got set right by the neighbor, and he made sure my folks knew of my transgressions.

RBS

97 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:57:53pm

re: #92 GeneJockey

This comes perilously close to defining all men as potential rapists, and reducing rape to something any guy would do unless he was raised right.

Let me expand. It’s not about discipline. It’s about understanding that other people are people in their own right, not actors in the movie that is your life.

98 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:58:41pm

re: #92 GeneJockey

This comes perilously close to defining all men as potential rapists, and reducing rape to something any guy would do unless he was raised right.

While that was not my intent, it is my firm belief that boys aren’t born respecting girls and women; It is something they must be taught. Rape is a hideous wrong and it is important to teach people why it is such.

99 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:59:02pm

re: #94 Targetpractice

So the judge’s conclusion is that the computerized system of directing calls today is nothing like that of the 70s, so obviously the two are in no way related. Seems a very serious stretch to me.

That’s not what he said. He openly states the relationship-but acknowledges the limits it inherently has given 30 years of profound change. And he is referring to the computerized system of collection data not related to an investigation. And I’m limited to just a little slice of the decision as copyright product at Politico. I suppose I could Page the decision for discussion PDF style but kinda hoping to see that right here as the current topic.

100 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 1:59:28pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The best way to prevent a boy from becoming a rapist or a thug is to reach him how to be a proper man. Discipline is a thing that needs to be learned, but once it is learned a young man is far stronger and less likely to do wrong.

Plz to remember all the “good, sweet boys” accused of rape over the years. Football players, popular kids, etc.

Rape has nothing to do with how a boy is raised. If he’s a selfish asshole who thinks he’s entitled to sex whether she wants it or not, then that’s what he’s going to do. Whatever he learned at home or in church or whatever isn’t going to affect him in that moment.

101 erik_t  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:00:14pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

While that was not my intent, it is my firm belief that boys aren’t born respecting girls and women; It is something they must be taught.

Citation fucking needed.

102 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:00:29pm

Obviously, the solution is court mandated chastity devices for all males.

103 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:01:42pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

While that was not my intent, it is my firm belief that boys aren’t born respecting girls and women; It is something they must be taught. Rape is a hideous wrong and it is important to teach people why it is such.

Nobody is born respecting anyone. We start out with the perception that we are the center of the universe, and the implicit assumption that it all exists for us. Part of that is to see others as not really people, in the same sense that we ourselves are people; that they do not exist for us but rather as individuals in their own right.

Once it is fully understood that they are no less people then we ourselves, you know why rape, murder, theft, etc. are wrong.

104 Lidane  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:01:57pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

While that was not my intent, it is my firm belief that boys aren’t born respecting girls and women; It is something they must be taught. Rape is a hideous wrong and it is important to teach people why it is such.

It goes further than that. Watch this TEDx Talk with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie about how both men and women are raised and about gender roles. She gives a damn good argument for why we should all be feminists and why gender needs to be talked about more. Her examples are Nigerian because that’s where she’s from, but the ideas she expresses are universal:

Youtube Video

It’s 30 minutes, but damn well worth your time.

105 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:02:08pm
106 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:03:37pm

re: #100 Lidane

Plz to remember all the “good, sweet boys” accused of rape over the years. Football players, popular kids, etc.

Rape has nothing to do with how a boy is raised. If he’s a selfish asshole who thinks he’s entitled to sex whether she wants it or not, then that’s what he’s going to do. Whatever he learned at home or in church or whatever isn’t going to affect him in that moment.

But entitlement and selfishness are attitudes and they can and should be combated.

107 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:04:26pm

re: #104 Lidane

It goes further than that. Watch this TEDx Talk with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie about how both men and women are raised and about gender roles. She gives a damn good argument for why we should all be feminists and why gender needs to be talked about more. Her examples are Nigerian because that’s where she’s from, but the ideas she expresses are universal:

[Embedded content]

It’s 30 minutes, but damn well worth your time.

Later, I’m afraid. I’m leaving soon.

108 calochortus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:04:31pm

re: #100 Lidane

Plz to remember all the “good, sweet boys” accused of rape over the years. Football players, popular kids, etc.

Rape has nothing to do with how a boy is raised. If he’s a selfish asshole who thinks he’s entitled to sex whether she wants it or not, then that’s what he’s going to do. Whatever he learned at home or in church or whatever isn’t going to affect him in that moment.

I think we can go for some middle ground here-boys who are raised right aren’t usually selfish assholes. There are always exceptions.
Girls also need to be raised right. They need to know that whatever advertisers, society at large, and their boyfriend tell them, they own their own body and that body isn’t something to be used to gain attention or (apparent) popularity.

109 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:05:20pm

oh my…where to begin…

110 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:05:55pm

re: #99 Political Atheist

That’s not what he said. He openly states the relationship-but acknowledges the limits it inherently has given 30 years of profound change. And he is referring to the computerized system of collection data not related to an investigation. And I’m limited to just a little slice of the decision as copyright product at Politico. I suppose I could Page the decision for discussion PDF style but kinda hoping to see that right here as the current topic.

What he has done is stated that he will grant a preliminary judgement not on the merits of the case, but on his belief that the legal precedent is wrong and should be changed. He has effectively issued a ruling based upon how he thinks the law should be written, not as it is written, totally ignoring the standing precedent and the still valid rationale behind the past rulings that established that precedent. It’s judicial activism in the extreme.

111 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:07:04pm

re: #109 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh my…where to begin…

[Embedded content]

Now I’m picturing a whole line of steampunk vibrators.

112 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:07:52pm

re: #111 Kragar

Now I’m picturing a whole line of steampunk vibrators.

FWIW, that is NOT a safe thing to Google Image Search. Don’t ask, just trust me.

RBS

113 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:08:50pm

re: #112 RealityBasedSteve

FWIW, that is NOT a safe thing to Google Image Search. Don’t ask, just trust me.

RBS

Hell, I could have told you that.

114 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:10:11pm

re: #110 Targetpractice

There is standing precedent that the collection of personal data (even metadata, not just conversations) must be related to an investigation. 99.99% of these are clearly not related to an investigation.

The Patriot Act’s Section 215 - also known as the “business records” provision - allows the FBI to obtain secret court orders from the FISC compelling third parties to produce “any tangible thing” that is “relevant” to foreign intelligence or terrorism investigations. In addition to the constitutional claims above, the lawsuit charges that the executive branch’s use of Section 215 goes far beyond what the statute permits. Whatever Section 215’s “relevance” requirement might allow, it does not permit the government to cast a seven-year dragnet sweeping up every phone call made or received by Americans.

The ACLU is also currently litigating a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit seeking documents on the government’s legal interpretation and use of Section 215, and has also filed a motion with the FISC asking it to release its secret opinions authorizing the NSA program.

It’s telling that the government cannot point to one incident where this domestic collection made a difference. Fishing expeditions are like that. But fishing is not how law enforcement and surveillance are supposed to work under our law.

115 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:11:29pm

You have only 8 more shopping days…

A Sociologist Studied Christmas Gifts, and Here’s What He Learned

Christmas shopping is worth stressing over: Anthropologists and sociologists have long believed that ritualized gift exchange is one of the most important mechanisms keeping our fragile social networks intact. The French anthropologist Marcel Mauss hypothesized in his seminal 1925 essay, “The Gift: The form and reason for exchange in archaic societies”, that when an object is given as a gift, it becomes inextricably tied to the giver. “To make a gift of something,” he wrote, “is to make a present of some part of oneself.” Mauss identified three obligations associated with gift exchange: giving, which he equates with the first step in building a social relationship; receiving, which signifies acceptance of the social relationship; and reciprocating, which demonstrates the recipient’s integrity. If gifts are refused or unreciprocated, relationships can be threatened.

[…]

I notice Amazon has a rather large selection of jewelry clearance items:

amazon.com

116 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:11:32pm

re: #105 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Also, just in case:


117 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:13:23pm
“To make a gift of something,” he wrote, “is to make a present of some part of oneself.”

That did not work out well for Vincent Van Gogh.

118 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:14:11pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

Yeah, that’s true of course. Don’t think I’ve ever implied otherwise.

But I haven’t seen anything to dissuade me of my feeling that this is a weak ruling, and I’ll bet the preliminary injunction will be overturned.

119 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:14:47pm

re: #113 Kragar

Hell, I could have told you that.

Yeah. That’s right up there with ‘Don’t split up to look for the killer in the dark woods.’

120 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:15:08pm

re: #108 calochortus

I think we can go for some middle ground here-boys who are raised right aren’t usually selfish assholes. There are always exceptions.
Girls also need to be raised right. They need to know that whatever advertisers, society at large, and their boyfriend tell them, they own their own body and that body isn’t something to be used to gain attention or (apparent) popularity.

Quite Concur.

BBL

121 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:15:25pm

re: #119 GeneJockey

Yeah. That’s right up there with ‘Don’t split up to look for the killer in the dark woods.’

“The call is coming from INSIDE the house!!!”

122 Ian G.  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:15:36pm

re: #36 Lidane

Guns aren’t magical talismans that immediately save you. They’re not an instant cure.

Maybe you’ve forgotten a little thing called the American Revolution, where a rag-tag army of farmers with their guns defeated the most powerful nation on ea-, wait, what? Washington’s army got its ass kicked again and again and had to flee New York and Philadelphia with its tail between its legs? Huh. Well, what about that battle with the whole crossing the Delaware? Really? Surprised them and took them all prisoner and barely fired a shot? Huh.

And you’re also telling me we won because the British public got tired of a pointless fight on the other side of the Atlantic after embarrassing blunders at Saratoga and Yorktown? I thought Great Britain was a brutal tyranny? Parliament? Responsible to public opinion. Wow.

123 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:15:44pm

The flip side of doing IT investigations about suspicious and unauthorized activity on a military network has been I know a lot more about porn than most and its all work related.

While I’m no longer in incident response, I still get questioned several times a week.

“We’ve got someone looking up *name 1*, good or bad?”
“That is a Japanese actress, no problem.”
“What about *name 2*?
“Porn.”
“And the site chickswithballs? Has to be porn, right?”
“Women’s NBA fan site.”
“HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW THAT?”

124 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:15:47pm

See, this is why I could never write for Politico. I couldn’t write this:

Acting on a lawsuit brought by conservative legal activist Larry Klayman, Leon issued a preliminary injunction…

It would turn out like this:

Acting on an opportunistic lawsuit brought by raving far right lunatic Larry Klayman, Leon issued a preliminary injunction…

125 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:16:36pm
126 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:17:10pm

re: #124 Charles Johnson

See, this is why I could never write for Politico. I couldn’t write this:

It would turn out like this:

An improvement, of course.

127 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:19:48pm
128 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:20:30pm

re: #118 Charles Johnson

Okay we agree this came out via a traitor/defector/spy. And it gained some loathsome allies along with organizations that do a very credible job looking out for us. But how this came to light has no relevance to how the law works. How our protections function.

Does the relevance argument carry any weight with you at all? I find that reasonably persuasive. Also the fact the judge ruled this way at all is pretty strong. Many expected this to fail at this level.

129 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:25:30pm

re: #128 Political Atheist

It’s never insignificant when a federal judge rules like this, but it isn’t the big news it’s being played up to be. It actually affects nothing - it’s the very definition of a narrow ruling.

The Supremes have already turned down one request from Klayman, and I would not be surprised to see this one get shut down too. I’ll be more surprised if they actually hear it.

130 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:25:46pm

I’m beginning to come to the conclusion that we humans desire to be stupid. All this data and information from the scientific age has become too much of a burden.

131 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:29:26pm

re: #129 Charles Johnson

Obviously time will tell, and obviously if it is upheld some will sing from the rafters and some will mutter Citizens v United. If it is turned down, the same things will be said by opposite parties.

One thing really grates me as unjust-We don’t have standing to sue because it’s a secret program. That and the no fly list, Paged earlier. That’s not just. The war on terror is distorting our laws, and not for the better.

132 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:29:54pm

re: #130 freetoken

I’m beginning to come to the conclusion that we humans desire to be stupid. All this data and information from the scientific age has become too much of a burden.

Being stupid is a matter of cultural, social and political identity. And a popular pastime.

133 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:31:33pm

In case y’all missed it, there was a new poll out today, from Harris, that touches on Religion, creationism, etc.

I don’t think the Harris poll is as informative as the long running Pew and Gallup polls on this subject, but I guess it’s another data point.

Good news: magickal thinking is down.
Bad news: most Americans still do magickal thinking.

Americans’ Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines; Belief in Darwin’s theory of evolution rises

As the Harris’ own press release notes:

A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.

134 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:34:15pm

re: #130 freetoken

I’m beginning to come to the conclusion that we humans desire to be stupid. All this data and information from the scientific age has become too much of a burden.

the great buffalo spirit will eat you for saying such things

135 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:35:59pm

well, well, well…

House Ethics Committee to investigate Trey Radel

The House Ethics Committee plans to formally investigate Rep. Trey Radel (R-Fla.) following his arrest and guilty plea for cocaine possession.

A panel of lawmakers led by Reps. Charlie Dent (R-Pa.) and Yvette Clarke (D-N.Y.) will determine whether Radel violated the House Code of Conduct or broke any other laws or regulations related to his responsibilities as a lawmaker.

136 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:36:26pm

The problem with the Harris poll is that it relies on the very nebulous question “Do you believe in … ?”

“Believe” is not something that ought to be on a questionnaire without some context as to what “believe” really means.

137 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:36:35pm

Woops.

138 Single-handed sailor  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:38:04pm

re: #109 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh my…where to begin…

[Embedded content]

Ah, the original sybian.

139 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:39:06pm

re: #129 Charles Johnson

It’s never insignificant when a federal judge rules like this, but it isn’t the big news it’s being played up to be. It actually affects nothing - it’s the very definition of a narrow ruling.

The Supremes have already turned down one request from Klayman, and I would not be surprised to see this one get shut down too. I’ll be more surprised if they actually hear it.

Who’s funding Klayman? Farah? It’s not cheap to go all the way to the SC.

140 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:39:35pm

HURR HURR

141 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:41:04pm

The Harris poll is more of an identity attractor. The online polling really showing with what phrases a person wants to identify with, rather than if they actually understand what the phrase means.

In this sense the Harris poll is very much a kin to so much on the internet, including all those silly wingnuts making “conservative” a magick word.

142 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:42:27pm

re: #133 freetoken

In case y’all missed it, there was a new poll out today, from Harris, that touches on Religion, creationism, etc.

I don’t think the Harris poll is as informative as the long running Pew and Gallup polls on this subject, but I guess it’s another data point.

Good news: magickal thinking is down.
Bad news: most Americans still do magickal thinking.

Americans’ Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines; Belief in Darwin’s theory of evolution rises

As the Harris’ own press release notes:

not surprising considering the “would you vote for a ——” survey puts atheists way at the bottom

143 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:43:48pm

re: #141 freetoken

The Harris poll is more of an identity attractor. The online polling really showing with what phrases a person wants to identify with, rather than if they actually understand what the phrase means.

In this sense the Harris poll is very much a kin to so much on the internet, including all those silly wingnuts making “conservative” a magick word.

The survey also finds that 42% of Americans believe in ghosts, 36% each believe in creationism and UFOs, 29% believe in astrology, 26% believe in witches and 24% believe in reincarnation - that they were once another person.

My conclusion from this poll matches George Carlin’s view of people: “Some people are fucking stupid!”

144 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:44:32pm

re: #142 dog philosopher

not surprising considering the “would you vote for a ——” survey puts atheists way at the bottom

What, they put it alphabetical order, and started with Zoroastrians?
///

145 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:46:53pm

I still don’t want to be part of those 1 Billion…

Facebook Will Replace Teradyne in S&P 500 Index Next Week

bloomberg.com

“Facebook’s market value has more than doubled this year to $127 billion. The market capitalization of Teradyne, a manufacturer of products to test computer chips, is little changed this year at $3.1 billion.

“Gaining entry to the benchmark gauges provides Menlo Park, California-based Facebook with a guaranteed base of shareholders from funds that follow the indexes. More than $5.14 trillion tracks the S&P 500, according to the S&P website.

“Concern about Facebook’s ability to serve advertisements to its mobile user base weighed on its shares until the company’s progress this year helped quiet skeptics. Mobile promotions accounted for 49 percent of total ad revenue in the third quarter, surpassing 41 percent in the prior period. The mobile user base expanded to 874 million.”

The rise of the cell phone in advertising. Sheeeesh.

146 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:47:33pm

re: #140 Lord of the Pies

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

Fucking idiot. I gave up on shit for brains.

147 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:47:54pm

re: #141 freetoken

making “conservative” a magick word.

“conservative”, adj, a philosophy advocating lower taxes on the wealthy and big business, a complete lack of consumer protection, corporate personhood, a social darwinist rejection of cooperation and community in social relations in favor of the law of the jungle, and invasive government regulation and intervention in the life of people who do not happen to be corporations

148 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:48:12pm

re: #144 GeneJockey

What, they put it alphabetical order, and started with Zoroastrians?
///

albigensians win again!!!

149 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:49:17pm

An example that will fit into my previous statements:

Darwinists perplexed by DNA found in Spain

ASHEVILLE, N.C. (BP) — The discovery of DNA evidence in a cave in Spain is incongruent with current theories of human evolution [No, it isn’t], according to a report based on interviews with believers in Darwinian evolution in The New York Times. [No, that is not what the NYT articles really said.]

The Times reported the retrieval of ancient human DNA from a fossil that evolutionists date from 400,000 years ago. The fossil came from a cave in Spain where 28 nearly complete skeletons have been found. Since researchers believed all of the skeletons were from the Neanderthal species, they expected the new fossil also would be a Neanderthal. To their surprise, DNA analysis suggests the fossil is of Denisovan origin [Not accurate], a species previously regarded as limited to East Asia, nearly 4,000 miles from the cave in Spain.

Since it is doubtful that a Denisovan could have traveled that far, evolutionists have no explanation for the presence of a Denisovan fossil among the Neanderthals of Western Europe and Asia, according to The Times’ Dec. 4 report.

[…]

And then the Baptist Press goes on to quote creationists of various stripes with their magickal ideas of what those bones in Spain are all about.

However, leaving aside the creationism, the BP didn’t even get the actual report correct. What was discovered was DNA that appears to have come from a common ancestor to both the European Neanderthals and the Siberian Denisovans, thus implying the humans in that cave had ancestors which arose from the common and yet older ancestor of all of them.

And no, this is not incongruent with human evolution. These archaic DNA discoveries to show that the genus Homo has had many different isolated populations around Eurasia that then later in time admixed.

150 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:50:24pm

Speaking for myself and to be clear, my objections to the Patriot Act, certain FBI (unwarranted GPS) and NSA activities such as PRISM(domestic) should not be taken as support or sympathy for Greenwald, Snowden, libertarianism et al.

It is support for a return to traditional civil protections as they existed before 9/11. I want the promise of a sunset clause to become unbroken. And the 4th Amendment to apply to each and all new communications technology we wind up with. SMS, emails, etc. If I post on a public forum, that’s fair game. If I send an email or text to an individual, privacy should apply unless they have probable cause to think I’m involved in a crime. Come what may, this is what I advocate.

Heh go ahead insert I want a pony :-)

151 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:50:44pm
152 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:51:35pm

re: #149 freetoken

An example that will fit into my previous statements:

Hey, it also fits with MY previous statement quoting George Carlin!

153 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:52:57pm

re: #148 dog philosopher

albigensians win again!!!

Until Aardvarks or Aaron A. Aaronson are running for office.

154 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:54:07pm

re: #149 freetoken

An example that will fit into my previous statements:

Darwinists perplexed by DNA found in Spain

And then the Baptist Press goes on to quote creationists of various stripes with their magickal ideas of what those bones in Spain are all about.

However, leaving aside the creationism, the BP didn’t even get the actual report correct. What was discovered was DNA that appears to have come from a common ancestor to both the European Neanderthals and the Siberian Denisovans, thus implying the humans in that cave had ancestors which arose from the common and yet older ancestor of all of them.

And no, this is not incongruent with human evolution. These archaic DNA discoveries to show that the genus Homo has had many different isolated populations around Eurasia that then later in time admixed.

And fossils are, in fact, rocks. Can’t get DNA from rocks.

155 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:54:32pm
156 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:55:52pm

patriot act

there should be a law against tendentious naming of legislation

157 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:56:05pm

re: #155 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Ted Nugent? Wait, that implies somebody would want to…I’m not gonna finish that thought, on the grounds of mental hygiene.

158 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:57:07pm

I hope we’re not heading for an internet balloon, and another repeat of the 2000-02 dot-com crash.

Those entities, Twitter and FB, and other “social” sites just seem over-valued to me. I mean, to my way of thinking, there is no “there, there”—it’s based on advertising, and on wishful thinking as much as some other things are. These companies aren’t even making a profit yet.

Think about it.

159 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:57:09pm

As for the War on Christmas theme, did y’all notice that Fox and Friends Hasselbeck this morning had on… Ken Ham to counter the attacks!

Fox News host Elisabeth Hasselbeck thanks creationist for ‘standing up’ to the atheists

160 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:57:54pm
161 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:57:54pm
162 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 2:59:18pm

re: #159 freetoken

As for the War on Christmas theme, did y’all notice that Fox and Friends Hasselbeck this morning had on… Ken Ham to counter the attacks!

Fox News host Elisabeth Hasselbeck thanks creationist for ‘standing up’ to the atheists

EH: Another nobody who got lucky on a reality show.

163 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:00:32pm

re: #162 Justanotherhuman

EH: Another nobody who got lucky on a reality show.

Remember when you needed things like talent or ability to be a star?

164 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:00:45pm

re: #161 Kragar

I don’t say, “Merry Christmas” meaning “Happy Birthday to Christ our Lord.” I say it cause I want you to have a good fucking holiday season

i’m sure i was over the age of 10 before i ever learned that christmas had anything to do with jesus

jesus was certainly not mentioned in my reform jewish family when putting up the christmas tree aka ‘hannukah bush’

165 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:02:12pm

Looks like creationism is back on the menu:

Is Creationism Coming Back To Texas Political Debate?

[…]

But Harvey Kronberg at the Quorum Report told KTRH the creationism debate has been going on for years in education circles.

“Evolution has been the centerpiece with creationism as the sideline argument. It’s been an ongoing battle in the state Board of Education,” Kronberg said.

Kronberg says the fact it came up in the Waco debate shouldn’t be a shock to anyone.

“Because it’s a Republican primary the entire race for the last three month has been who can get to the right of each other,” Kronberg explained.

So will the issue pop up once the Republican primary comes to an end?

“It could turn into a huge issue. It goes to the very core of what Texas public schools could be about,” Kronberg stated.

[…]

If the core is creationism, the entire apple is rotten.

166 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:03:04pm

imma gonna start the Movement For The Separation Of Christmas From The Celebration Of Jesus’ Birthday

167 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:03:23pm

This guy is an idiot:

168 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:03:36pm
169 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:05:59pm

re: #166 dog philosopher

imma gonna start the Movement For The Separation Of Christmas From The Celebration Of Jesus’ Birthday

You could start the Committee for the Re-Paganization of the Winter Solstice

170 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:07:48pm

re: #165 freetoken

Looks like creationism is back on the menu:

Is Creationism Coming Back To Texas Political Debate?

If the core is creationism, the entire apple is rotten.

It is never, ever, ever going to go off the menu as long as my fanatical evangelical brethren continue to exist. Alas, poor Yorick.

How go things among the Lizardim on this cold and snowy day?

171 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:10:04pm

172 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:11:21pm

You can now tweet images from both the full-screen Image Library and the popup Image Library. The caption text is used as the body of the tweet.

173 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:11:51pm

oh, good freakin grief…

A steakhouse in Nashville has responded to complaints that its staff forced a cancer patient to remove his hat over the weekend because he did not have a note from his doctor.

According to WZTV, the controversy started when a group of 16 people were finishing up a $2,000 company Christmas dinner at Morton’s Steakhouse when one man, who is being treated with chemotherapy and is sensitive to the cold, decided to put on a wool cap for warmth.

“When he put on a wool beanie in the restaurant to keep warm, he was immediately asked to remove it… which he did,” Amanda W. explained in a Yelp review. “When his family mentioned his condition and questioned the treatment from Catrina, the assistant manager, they were told he could wear it if he presented a doctors’ note… or if we had given them previous notice so we could be accommodated elsewhere. (Out of sight, out of mind?)”

Police Remove Cancer Patient from Nashville Steakhouse After He’s Forced to Take Off Hat - See more at: crooksandliars.com

174 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:12:02pm
175 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:12:49pm

Frank Zappa - Black Napkins
…with the Mike Douglas Band

Youtube Video

176 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:13:47pm

re: #169 freetoken

You could start the Committee for the Re-Paganization of the Winter Solstice

“please donate for the sacrifice of ten spotless bulls to wotan!

won’t you help us bring back the sun for another year??”

“no?”

“why do you hate freya!?!?!”

177 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:13:48pm

re the decision at the top of the thread, one thing to keep in mind is that lower courts do not rule things constitutional or unconstitutional. That decision is reserved for the supreme court, and the use of ‘likely’ or ‘appears to be’ is no indicator of the degree of feeling.

The real indicator is, as LAHawk noted, the fact the judge didn’t act on that claim He did not issue a restraining order or other such action.

I’m mentioning this so people don’t use the wrong touchstone in the future.

178 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:15:01pm

re: #173 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, good freakin grief…

Police Remove Cancer Patient from Nashville Steakhouse After He’s Forced to Take Off Hat - See more at: crooksandliars.com

Fucking upscale, elitist, snobby Morton’s.

Of course. Bad for our “image”, doncha know.

179 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:15:08pm
180 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:15:22pm

re: #173 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, good freakin grief…

Police Remove Cancer Patient from Nashville Steakhouse After He’s Forced to Take Off Hat - See more at: crooksandliars.com

In any decent Alabama BBQ joint, there are as many hats on as off. Mostly Cabelas or Gander Mountain, though Duck Dynasty is beginning to place.

181 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:16:18pm

re: #179 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Because I know what I see women out on dates, they’re toting AR-15s around to keep their date in line.

///

182 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:16:33pm

This is for the pagans out there:

MP3 Audio

183 freetoken  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:18:43pm

You can buy that and others here:

amazon.com

184 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:18:58pm
185 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:19:28pm

re: #181 Targetpractice

Because I know what I see women out on dates, they’re toting AR15s around to keep their date in line.

///

Actually, patriarchal or not, I often spent a few minutes with my daughters’ new dates discussing the virtue of iron sights over cheap optics.

186 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:19:50pm
187 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:20:23pm

re: #172 Charles Johnson

You can now tweet images from both the full-screen Image Library and the popup Image Library. The caption text is used as the body of the tweet.

Works!

188 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:21:33pm

re: #185 Decatur Deb

Actually, patriarchal or not, I often spent a few minutes with my daughters’ new dates discussing the virtue of iron sights over cheap optics.

No lie - when my sister brought home the guy who would eventually become her husband for the first time, my dad was in the front room, cleaning his .30-06 bolt-action Remington. I swear the man is a walking cliche of the fundamentalist right-wing dumpy white male.

189 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:21:35pm

re: #177 kirkspencer

re the decision at the top of the thread, one thing to keep in mind is that lower courts do not rule things constitutional or unconstitutional.

Yes they do, all the time. It’s just that they can be overruled. In US v Windsor DOMA was first ruled unconstitutional by District Court Judge Barbara Jones, the Court of Appeals and the Supremes simply affirmed this ruling.

190 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:22:04pm

re: #184 Kragar

[Embedded content]

If I wanna scare the shit out of home invaders, I’ll buy a pump action shotgun and keep the chamber unloaded. In most cases, the sound of racking a shell into the chamber will be enough to make them shit their pants and run.

191 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:22:05pm

Oh, I should mention - you have to link your LGF account to your Twitter account in Account Settings or you won’t see the “Tweet” button in the Image Library.

192 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:22:09pm

re: #186 Gus

[Embedded content]

Earlier, he was on the Steve Allen Show.

Youtube Video

193 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:22:38pm

re: #185 Decatur Deb

Actually, patriarchal or not, I often spent a few minutes with my daughters’ new dates discussing the virtue of iron sights over cheap optics.

Never needed to do anything like that. My daughter was happy to tell every date she had that she got every one of her black belt ranks a month or two before I got mine even though I knew a few other things about combat. (grin)

(edited to remove comment i’d decided not to post. sigh)

194 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:23:38pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

Earlier, he was on the Steve Allen Show.

[Embedded content]

Playing the bicycle! :D

195 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:26:06pm

re: #189 goddamnedfrank

Yes they do, all the time. It’s just that they can be overruled. In US v Windsor DOMA was first ruled unconstitutional by District Court Judge Barbara Jones, the Court of Appeals and the Supremes simply affirmed this ruling.

I sit corrected.

196 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:26:50pm

re: #190 Targetpractice

If I wanna scare the shit out of home invaders, I’ll buy a pump action shotgun and keep the chamber unloaded. In most cases, the sound of racking a shell into the chamber will be enough to make them shit their pants and run.

Got one in the closet with a trigger group lock and a cable through the action. Ammo is at the other end of the house. Criminal activity in our area is limited to punk kids who dump empties from their pickups on Saturday night.

197 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:27:02pm

re: #184 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Shotgun is the best for home defense.

198 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:27:40pm

re: #184 Kragar

Is an AR even that accurate of a weapon? I really don’t know. ,

You know what would stop rape? Men stepping up and actively refusing to participate in rape culture. To call out sexism where it lives, to watch for and discourage shitty behavior. Women have been doing all the things we’re “supposed” to do forever and it hasn’t stopped rape. We’ve dressed modestly, watched our drinks in bars and at parties, not gone out alone in the dark or in “bad” neighborhoods, etc, etc, ad nauseum and guess what? Rape still happens. It’s a cultural problem as well as an issue of power and control and a lack of empathy for others. Women cannot do this alone, it’s been left to us for too long. Rapes all have one thing alone in common, RAPISTS. Period, full stop. It’s not taken seriously, it’s minimized and shamed, even when it happens to men, and it does happen to them too.

Guns are not the solution to rape, it’s completely idiotic to think it’s that simple.

199 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:28:21pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

Earlier, he was on the Steve Allen Show.

[Embedded content]

lord buckley appeared on ‘you bet your life’

Youtube Video

and salvador dali

Youtube Video

and john cage appeared on ‘i’ve got a secret’ and cage even got a big hand for his musican presentation

Youtube Video

200 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:28:30pm

You also don’t want a weapon’s round to go through walls like paper like an AR-15’s would.

201 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:29:33pm

re: #196 Decatur Deb

Got one in the closet with a trigger group lock and a cable through the action. Ammo is at the other end of the house. Criminal activity in our area is limited to punk kids who dump empties from their pickups on Saturday night.

Ayep, same here. In the past decade or so of living in this neighborhood, I’ve only heard of one or two cases of burglary. No injuries or fatalities, just some stuff stolen while the owners were away. I feel no need to arm myself with high-powered weaponry to take care of some punk kid who’s probably looking for an easy score.

202 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:29:59pm

re: #199 dog philosopher

lord buckley appeared on ‘you bet your life’

[Embedded content]

Apparently they ruined TV when they added color.

203 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:30:53pm

re: #198 A Mom Anon

Is an AR even that accurate of a weapon? I really don’t know. ,

You know what would stop rape? Men stepping up and actively refusing to participate in rape culture. To call out sexism where it lives, to watch for and discourage shitty behavior. Women have been doing all the things we’re “supposed” to do forever and it hasn’t stopped rape. We’ve dressed modestly, watched our drinks in bars and at parties, not gone out alone in the dark or in “bad” neighborhoods, etc, etc, ad nauseum and guess what? Rape still happens. It’s a cultural problem as well as an issue of power and control and a lack of empathy for others. Women cannot do this alone, it’s been left to us for too long. Rapes all have one thing alone in common, RAPISTS. Period, full stop. It’s not taken seriously, it’s minimized and shamed, even when it happens to men, and it does happen to them too.

Guns are not the solution to rape, it’s completely idiotic to think it’s that simple.

But the mechanics of load-lock-sight picture exist. Rewiring the bad 2 percent of the male population is still social-science fiction. Both approaches are among the many that are just there for false security.

204 allegro  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:31:35pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

Shotgun is the best for home defense.

Second best - dogs are the best deterents. ;)

205 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:32:03pm

re: #204 allegro

Or shady cats…

/

206 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:32:21pm

I really question what sort of neighborhood one lives in if they think that they need to buy weapons capable of punching through body armor. If a 9mm pistol or a shotgun loaded with bird shot can’t take care of the people breaking into your house, then it might seriously be time to consider moving. Surely you can’t love the neighborhood that much that you need to be prepared for a Chinese invasion.

207 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:32:25pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

I live in a sleepy little rural farm town. We don’t even see the local hooligans; they all hang out in the next town over. I haven’t even felt a twinge of wanting to own a gun yet.

208 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:33:16pm

re: #207 thedopefishlives

I live in a sleepy little rural farm town. We don’t even see the local hooligans; they all hang out in the next town over. I haven’t even felt a twinge of wanting to own a gun yet.

I have swords.

209 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:33:35pm

re: #190 Targetpractice

If I wanna scare the shit out of home invaders, I’ll buy a pump action shotgun and keep the chamber unloaded. In most cases, the sound of racking a shell into the chamber will be enough to make them shit their pants and run.

Yeah, an assault weapon for home defense. Because when you care about your home and family, you want as many rounds as possible flying around in an enclosed space.

210 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:33:53pm

re: #208 Varek Raith

I have swords.

I know kung fu…and a lot of other scary sounding words.

//

211 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:34:03pm

re: #206 Targetpractice

I really question what sort of neighborhood one lives in if they think that they need to buy weapons capable of punching through body armor. If a 9mm pistol or a shotgun loaded with bird shot can’t take care of the people breaking into your house, then it might seriously be time to consider moving. Surely you can’t love the neighborhood that much that you need to be prepared for a Chinese invasion.

It’s not the Chinese they’re afraid of. Think darker.

And their neighborhoods are seldom so dangerous that a gun makes them any safer. In fact, generally quite the opposite.

212 sagehen  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:34:04pm

re: #199 dog philosopher

lord buckley appeared on ‘you bet your life’

[Embedded content]

Here’s an “I’ve Got a Secret” from the annals of ‘history isn’t all that long ago’ — an eyewitness to Lincoln’s assassination:

Youtube Video

213 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:34:48pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

I know kung fu…and a lot of other scary sounding words.

//

Get back to the Matrix!

/

214 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:35:43pm

re: #208 Varek Raith

I have swords.

And directed-energy weapons.

215 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:35:44pm

::head::desk::


George Zimmerman is selling his original artwork on eBay

216 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:35:45pm

re: #208 Varek Raith

I have swords.

The Mrs. Fish is a black belt. I’m going to be testing for mine next August. In close quarters, you better shoot first and ask questions later because I am big enough to intimidate and strong enough to take you down.

217 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:36:20pm

re: #215 Backwoods_Sleuth

::head::desk::

George Zimmerman is selling his original artwork on eBay

Does any of it feature hoodies and/or skittles?

218 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:36:56pm

re: #216 thedopefishlives

The Mrs. Fish is a black belt. I’m going to be testing for mine next August. In close quarters, you better shoot first and ask questions later because I am big enough to intimidate and strong enough to take you down.

Challenge accepted.

219 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:37:30pm

re: #217 Eclectic Cyborg

Does any of it feature hoodies and/or skittles?

I’ll just say that GWB is a much better artist.

220 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:37:30pm

re: #218 Varek Raith

Challenge accepted.

Yeah, but you fight like a Sith. It’s not fair.

221 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:37:46pm
222 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:38:31pm

re: #220 thedopefishlives

Yeah, but you fight like a Sith. It’s not fair.

What? He broods, kills your mentor, then fucks up at a key moment and fall into a reactor?

223 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:38:53pm

WHAMMY!

224 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:38:54pm

re: #221 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Let’s just ignore the raising of taxes 11 times…the growth of the government…the runaway defense spending…shit, this might be harder than I thought.

225 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:39:31pm

“A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close quarters ever devised. Pistols and guns are all offense, no defense; close on him fast and a man with a gun can’t shoot, he has to stop you before you reach him. Close on a man carrying a blade and you’ll be spitted like a roast pigeon — unless you have a blade and can use it better than he can.

“A sword never jams, never has to be reloaded, is always ready. Its worst shortcoming is that it takes great skill and patient, loving practice to gain that skill; it can’t be taught to raw recruits in weeks, nor even months.” - Robert Heinlein, Glory Road

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:40:39pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Ayep, same here. In the past decade or so of living in this neighborhood, I’ve only heard of one or two cases of burglary. No injuries or fatalities, just some stuff stolen while the owners were away. I feel no need to arm myself with high-powered weaponry to take care of some punk kid who’s probably looking for an easy score.

I tend to be more worried about feral dogs than anything else on a day to day basis. Unfortunately we do have neo-nazi camps only about 2 hours away.

227 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:40:58pm

re: #225 GeneJockey

“A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close quarters ever devised. Pistols and guns are all offense, no defense; close on him fast and a man with a gun can’t shoot, he has to stop you before you reach him. Close on a man carrying a blade and you’ll be spitted like a roast pigeon — unless you have a blade and can use it better than he can.
A sword never jams, never has to be reloaded, is always ready. Its worst shortcoming is that it takes great skill and patient, loving practice to gain that skill; it can’t be taught to raw recruits in weeks, nor even months.” - Robert Heinlein, Glory Road

Sure it can be taught quick. You just need an epic 80’s training montage.

//

228 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:40:59pm

re: #225 GeneJockey

So maybe sometimes it’s a GOOD idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?

/

229 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:41:23pm
230 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:41:27pm

re: #227 Targetpractice

Sure it can be taught quick. You just need an epic 80’s training montage.

//

“…In the burning heart, just about to burst…”

231 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:43:04pm

re: #228 Eclectic Cyborg

So maybe sometimes it’s a GOOD idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?

/

Image: 3965457110_0c1a213506_z.jpg

232 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:43:29pm

re: #228 Eclectic Cyborg

So maybe sometimes it’s a GOOD idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?

/

I prefer pointy stick.

233 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:44:01pm

re: #232 Kragar

I prefer pointy stick.

Boat oar.

234 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:45:00pm

re: #228 Eclectic Cyborg

So maybe sometimes it’s a GOOD idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?

/

If I’m in a gunfight, I want a claymore.

“Front Towards Enemy”

235 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:45:16pm

re: #204 allegro

Second best - dogs are the best deterents. ;)

I don’t have a dog, because my life-style is more cat conducive, but the alarm system I have has a recording of what sounds like the worlds biggest meanest junk yard mongrel that goes off when it’s sounded. I’m trying to figure out how to rig proximity detectors to the doors and windows so that it will act as an ‘early warning system’. I figure that and a couple of beef shanks / ribs in the yard will work like a charm.

RBS
Who may or may not have a personal weapon

236 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:45:36pm

re: #227 Targetpractice

Sure it can be taught quick. You just need an epic 80’s training montage.

//

With ‘Eye of the Tiger’ playing in the background…

Seriously, though - when I was in college, every year the Fencing Club put on a display at the Activities Fair. A couple of us would suit up and go a few touches for the crowds. And every year we’d get about 40 or so folks who showed up for the first meeting, and we’d start on footwork - en garde position, advance, retreat, lunge, recover.

By they end of a month, it was down to about 10, but they were with you for the rest of the year, or until they started getting laid regularly.

237 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:45:39pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

Shotgun is the best for home defense.

Best for home defense is, well, it’s situational. Who is breaking in and why, and what’s needed to stop the invasion?

Major point that needs to be up front. If it’s the police breaking in, even by mistake, if you wave a weapon of any type in their direction you can expect to die.

Now. Most break-ins occur while the owners are gone, or are believed to be gone. The break-in artists also prefer minimum hassle - noise, light, and difficulty getting in make it more likely they’ll go somewhere else unless they have a specific reason for entry.

For this reason a dog - one that greets everyone noisily - is good. You have to let them be inside to do any good, but it works. Second choice is an alarm system that sets off lights and noises when it goes off. Also, do a good job of making sure doors are locked and windows are closed - not leaving that one on the second floor open for the breeze because “nobody can see it.”

Your possibility of encountering one of these folk is due to them thinking you were gone and being wrong. Here, almost anything is sufficient so long as it is credible. The “Castle Doctrine” people noted, you’re a lot better off just getting a good look at the thief and encouraging him to run — and immediately calling the police. Remember that if you openly take a picture you’ve pushed him to a wall, but taking it once he’s started running will have no effect beyond making capture easier. Recognize the risk of confrontation, however - he might be armed, and/or he might be desperate once caught. It’s almost worth it to just be noisy, call the police, and be prepared if the idiot is, well, even more idiotic. (comes to the bedroom after you’ve made it obvious you’re prepared and awake, for example.)

An invader who comes in despite the risk and difficulty is not there casually. He is after something in particular - whether theft, rape, or coup, it’s specific. At this point you need to consider your weapon recognizing you could have as little as one second from ‘wake up’ to “oh crap”. Most of us do not sleep with a pistol under our pillow. Bed holsters are, well, it’s the reason they exist, but they make the weapon accessible to anyone who gets to that side of the bed as well. Anything that requires you get up and unlock is probably unusable.

Oh, and the really important thing to remember about that determined individual is that he probably knows you. If you put a pistol under your pillow he probably knows about it - same for the bed holster. So anything you do is not a surprise.

There are too many people who think they’re Rambo, or maybe Bond, and can out-shoot the intruder with readied weapon standing right next to them.

But the times when it’s a good thing to be armed, well, the weapon of choice is situational. It depends on what sort of place you’re in, and whether you can use the weapon, and what will keep the attacker away — and stop him if he continues to attack. Whatever it is, practice with it or get rid of it - a shotgun doesn’t automatically hit anything but the things you did not intend to shoot.

238 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:45:59pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

If I’m in a gunfight, I want a claymore.

“This side towards enemy”

This is a sword. The pointy end goes into the bad guy.

239 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:46:39pm

re: #228 Eclectic Cyborg

So maybe sometimes it’s a GOOD idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?

/

“Ishn’t that jusht like a Wop, bringing a knife to a goonfight?”

240 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:48:02pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

If I’m in a gunfight, I want a claymore.

“This side towards enemy”

The point is much faster than the edge. A good sword has both, though.

241 thedopefishlives  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:48:31pm

re: #236 GeneJockey

Our tae kwon do classes are similar. Come New Year’s, we get an influx of new students looking to take care of a resolution by getting into some kind of training (and a few who think they can come in and just learn to beat people up). By about March, they’re all gone. Certainly is fun for the karate “lifers” to watch them come and go, though.

242 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:48:47pm

Never be in front of the weapon. Never be behind an idiot with a weapon.

243 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:49:08pm
244 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:53:15pm

re: #243 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Lol.

245 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:54:24pm

re: #243 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Them ni-CLANGs and libruls will be comin’ for my gold and heirloom seeds any day now! Gotta be ready!

246 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:54:33pm

re: #241 thedopefishlives

Our tae kwon do classes are similar. Come New Year’s, we get an influx of new students looking to take care of a resolution by getting into some kind of training (and a few who think they can come in and just learn to beat people up). By about March, they’re all gone. Certainly is fun for the karate “lifers” to watch them come and go, though.

Building the leg strength and muscle memory to move and fight economically is just plain dull. Same for drilling on simple things like parry-and-riposte, or worse - “Extend, lunge, recover. Again. Again. Again……”

And as you probably know, a good fencing bout is not as exciting to watch as a swordfight in a movie.

247 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 3:56:20pm
248 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:00:08pm

re: #247 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Excellent in home defense if the invader is wearing body armor and is determined enough to engage in a drawn out firefight in an enclosed space. If you’re in that sort of scenario, then my friend, you most likely brought it on yourself.

249 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:01:47pm

re: #246 GeneJockey

Building the leg strength and muscle memory to move and fight economically is just plain dull. Same for drilling on simple things like parry-and-riposte, or worse - “Extend, lunge, recover. Again. Again. Again……”

And as you probably know, a good fencing bout is not as exciting to watch as a swordfight in a movie.

It’s about building that ‘muscle memory’ (a discredited term, but we know what it means), where your conscious brain doesn’t have to think / react / process but simply acts.

I remember something they did on Fight Science, had a striking dummy and measured how fast somebody could react to an area (arm, leg, body, head) lighting up and then throwing a punch. Among people with martial arts / boxing / mma training who had a high degree of proficiency, those individuals would deliver the blow before an average person had even started to react to the signal. In other words, they CAN see it coming and hit you before you hit them… Thousands and thousands of reps again and again to drill to that level. Of course there is a certain degree to which that is also based on ones genetics, but training is a huge factor.

RBS
Who can get hit 3 times on the way down.

250 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:02:09pm

Time to turn from slaughter, back to stringing Christmas lights. BBL

251 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:05:17pm

re: #250 Decatur Deb

Time to turn from slaughter, back to stringing Christmas lights. BBL

Twinkle, Flashing or Steady?

RBS
Trolling??? Who, Me? I’m just a slapdick reprobate.

252 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:06:28pm

re: #215 Backwoods_Sleuth

::head::desk::

George Zimmerman is selling his original artwork on eBay

Oh, ferchrissakes.

John Wayne Gacy’s clowns were awful, too.

253 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:09:37pm

re: #252 Justanotherhuman

Oh, ferchrissakes.

John Wayne Gacy’s clowns were awful, too.

It’s now at 6,100 with 5 more days to go. Ya, I don’t think so…

RBS

254 Gus  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:10:51pm

I can see having an AR-15 for home defense. Or a Glock. What I can’t see is talking about it all the time on the internet. I mean if someone is that obsessed they’re probably also waiting around for any excuse to use it. Weird.

255 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:12:06pm

george will wants everybody to know how little he knows about the reality of working for a living

e.g. Nevertheless, raising the minimum hourly wage for the 23rd time since 1938, from today’s $7.25 to $10.10, is a nifty idea, if:

If you think government should prevent two consenting parties — an employer and a worker — from agreeing to an hourly wage that government disapproves.

If you think forcing employers to spend X dollars more than necessary to employ labor for entry-level jobs will stimulate the economy. If you believe this, you must think the workers receiving the extra dollars will put the money to more stimulative uses than their employers would have. If so, why not a minimum wage of $50.50 rather than the $10.10? Because this might discourage hiring? What makes you sure you know the threshold where job destruction begins?

256 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:13:37pm

re: #252 Justanotherhuman

Oh, ferchrissakes.

John Wayne Gacy’s clowns were awful, too.

George is following more in the footsteps of Scott Roeder, who also sells “artwork.”

Wingnut welfare transaction.

On second thought, you’re right. Both cases compare to Gacy. People want a little piece of the murderer.

257 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:13:41pm

re: #255 dog philosopher

george will wants everybody to know how little he knows about the reality of working for a living

e.g. Nevertheless, raising the minimum hourly wage for the 23rd time since 1938, from today’s $7.25 to $10.10, is a nifty idea, if:

If you think government should prevent two consenting parties — an employer and a worker — from agreeing to an hourly wage that government disapproves.

If you think forcing employers to spend X dollars more than necessary to employ labor for entry-level jobs will stimulate the economy. If you believe this, you must think the workers receiving the extra dollars will put the money to more stimulative uses than their employers would have. If so, why not a minimum wage of $50.50 rather than the $10.10? Because this might discourage hiring? What makes you sure you know the threshold where job destruction begins?

George, if there are studies showing that raising the minimum wage leads to job loss or economic contraction, present them. If not, then please, for the sake of all our sanity, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

258 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:14:17pm

re: #249 RealityBasedSteve

It’s about building that ‘muscle memory’ (a discredited term, but we know what it means), where your conscious brain doesn’t have to think / react / process but simply acts.

I remember something they did on Fight Science, had a striking dummy and measured how fast somebody could react to an area (arm, leg, body, head) lighting up and then throwing a punch. Among people with martial arts / boxing / mma training who had a high degree of proficiency, those individuals would deliver the blow before an average person had even started to react to the signal. In other words, they CAN see it coming and hit you before you hit them… Thousands and thousands of reps again and again to drill to that level. Of course there is a certain degree to which that is also based on ones genetics, but training is a huge factor.

RBS
Who can get hit 3 times on the way down.

When i came to CA, I joined a fencing club whose instructor knew one of the Olympic foil fencers, and invited him to come by, thinking we might enjoy fencing against someone of that caliber.

Nope.

There was nothing you could do. Any time you got anywhere near him, BOOM! Another touch against. It was nothing like fun, and pretty much showed just how huge the gap is between “pretty good” and Olympic class. BTW, he never got near a medal at the Olympics, but he was still so far beyond us that I can’t imagine he had much fun, either.

259 Kragar  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:15:34pm

re: #248 Targetpractice

Excellent in home defense if the invader is wearing body armor and is determined enough to engage in a drawn out firefight in an enclosed space. If you’re in that sort of scenario, then my friend, you most likely brought it on yourself.

Of course, that is assuming they don’t just pull back, fire in some gas or incendiaries and wait

260 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:18:16pm

re: #259 Kragar

Of course, that is assuming they don’t just pull back, fire in some gas or incendiaries and wait

Or fire the building. Shit, if they’re determined enough to kill you that you need heavy weaponry, then burning down your house is probably easier for them than trying to hunt you down.

261 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:19:21pm

re: #259 Kragar

Of course, that is assuming they don’t just pull back, fire in some gas or incendiaries and wait

That’s kinda what I was thinking. If you’re being attacked by a horde of bad guys, and you think they’re gonna let you sit behind cover and pick them off, you’re nuts. They’ll set fire to your house and let you choose between burning to death as your ammo cooks off, or coming out guns blazing to be riddled with bullets.

262 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:19:43pm

re: #253 RealityBasedSteve

It’s now at 6,100 with 5 more days to go. Ya, I don’t think so…

RBS

It started off at 99 cents and immediately went to $99. Bidding history:

offer.ebay.com

I don’t do this stuff—but, what do those stars mean? A lot of those bidders don’t seem to have any previous activity. Straw bidders?

263 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:19:54pm

re: #260 Targetpractice

Or fire the building. Shit, if they’re determined enough to kill you that you need heavy weaponry, then burning down your house is probably easier for them than trying to hunt you down.

Nuts. Missed it by 1:05

264 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:19:55pm

re: #260 Targetpractice

Or fire the building. Shit, if they’re determined enough to kill you that you need heavy weaponry, then burning down your house is probably easier for them than trying to hunt you down.

They also might be organized enough to do something other than storm your house at random.

265 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:22:53pm

re: #253 RealityBasedSteve

It’s now at 6,100 with 5 more days to go. Ya, I don’t think so…

RBS

It’s over $11K now. Same bidder who had the last highest one, now also has the highest one, so he almost doubled his own bid. This is pretty whacked.

266 GeneJockey  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:25:25pm

re: #264 The Ghost of a Flea

They also might be organized enough to do something other than storm your house at random.

Don’t be silly. Bad guys aren’t smart enough to use suppressing fire to keep you pinned down while they move into position! Didn’t you see The Patriot? Mel Gibson and his boys killed 20 redcoats by shooting from behind trees!
////

267 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:26:09pm

re: #265 Justanotherhuman

It’s over $11K now. Same bidder who had the last highest one, now also has the highest one, so he almost doubled his own bid. This is pretty whacked.

You can’t put a price on the vicarious thrill obtained through a murder relic.

268 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:28:18pm

re: #255 dog philosopher

If you think government should prevent two consenting parties — an employer and a worker — from agreeing to an hourly wage

Because Walmart the Corporation is a person too.

WTFF.

269 RealityBasedSteve  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:28:32pm

re: #265 Justanotherhuman

It started off at 99 cents and immediately went to $99. Bidding history:

I don’t do this stuff—but, what do those stars mean? A lot of those bidders don’t seem to have any previous activity. Straw bidders?

It’s over $11K now. Same bidder who had the last highest one, now also has the highest one, so he almost doubled his own bid. This is pretty whacked.

The numbers after the hashed names indicate feedback left by other buyers or sellers in a transaction, the stars are just awards for getting a certain number of points. Yea, I suspect that somethingawful / 4chan and the rest of the usual suspects are playing this one. I highly doubt that it will go the duration, I give it 12 hours or so before it’s cancelled.

RBS

270 dog philosopher  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:30:24pm

re: #268 Lord of the Pies

Because Walmart the Corporation is a person too.

WTFF.

george actually imagines people walking into walmart and negotiating what their hourly wage will be

271 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:31:19pm

re: #267 The Ghost of a Flea

You can’t put a price on the vicarious thrill obtained through a murder relic.

No, but you can also launder money (at a premium) through eBay.

272 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:32:21pm

re: #270 dog philosopher

george actually imagines people walking into walmart and negotiating what their hourly wage will be

But a bunch of workers organizing into a union ISN’T FAIR because then IT’S GANGING UP ON ONE POOR HELPLESS LITTLE INDIVIDUAL CORPORATION.

273 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:33:24pm

WRONG ANSWER.
IT’S BECAUSE RICH WHITE WOMEN CAN TRAVEL TO WHEREVER THEY WANT.

274 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 4:33:42pm

re: #270 dog philosopher

george actually imagines people walking into walmart and negotiating what their hourly wage will be

They took care of that ages ago by including some variant of “Expected Pay” on applications. Then they made it easier for them to screw you blind by including a tag marked “Negotiable,” as in they set a figure and if you ask above it, then “thank” you for coming in, then promptly circular file your application.

275 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 5:16:29pm

My new favorite Christmas song:

The Killers - Christmas in L.A.Link
Youtube Video

The shout-out to Zevon is awfully nice.

276 sagehen  Mon, Dec 16, 2013 6:20:59pm

re: #273 Lord of the Pies

WRONG ANSWER.
IT’S BECAUSE RICH WHITE WOMEN CAN TRAVEL TO WHEREVER THEY WANT.

[Embedded content]

It’s because the rent is cheaper there. And because the neighbors don’t have political capital to spend on demanding the relocation of that business with all the protestors hanging around out front.

277 abolitionist  Tue, Dec 17, 2013 10:22:00am

re: #3 Targetpractice

“Appears to violate”? “Likely unconstitutional”? Seems like a pretty weak sauce ruling to me. Almost seems like a judge who either didn’t want to be bothered to actually put his name on a more definitive ruling or just wanted the damn case out of his courtroom.

Sounds a bit like a judge who appreciates what bad things can happen to anyone who deeply offends the powers that be, so I’ll interpret it as a small step in the right direction.


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