Federal Judge Rules NSA Phone Surveillance Is Legal

Cue Greenwald freak-out
US News • Views: 22,435

A federal district court judge in New York dismissed a lawsuit brought by the ACLU today, and declared that NSA phone surveillance is legal.

U.S. District Judge William Pauley said in a written opinion that the program “represents the government’s counter-punch” to eliminate al-Qaida’s terror network by connecting fragmented and fleeting communications.

In ruling, the judge noted the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and how the phone data-collection system could have helped investigators connect the dots before the attacks occurred.

“The government learned from its mistake and adapted to confront a new enemy: a terror network capable of orchestrating attacks across the world. It launched a number of counter-measures, including a bulk telephony metadata collection program — a wide net that could find and isolate gossamer contacts among suspected terrorists in an ocean of seemingly disconnected data,” he said.

Since Judge Pauley referenced terrorism in his decision, the Greenwaldians will now predictably attack him as a shill for the government — because in the strange world of the Greenwald cult, there’s no such thing as terrorism except when they’re accusing the US of it.

UPDATE at 12/27/13 10:11:17 am

On news of this decision, fans of Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald sprang into action and began vandalizing Judge Pauley’s Wikipedia page.

William H. Pauley III”’ (born 1952) is a [[United States federal judge]], Terrorist, Enemy of The People, and The Constitution of the United States.

UPDATE at 12/27/13 10:18:30 am

Here’s the full ruling:

Scribd Document

Jump to bottom

309 comments
1 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:07:38am

Dudebros attacking Pauley’s Wikipedia bio.

2 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:08:43am

Remember, that in Outer Dudebrovia, the NSA does not exist to provide for the security of US citizens, it exists to help enslave and control us all.

3 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:09:50am

re: #1 Pie-onist Overlord

Dudebros attacking Pauley’s Wikipedia bio.

Keeps changing. Reverted back to normal after this:

”’William H. Pauley III”’ (born 1952) is a [[United States federal judge]], Terrorist, Enemy of The People, and The Constitution of the United States.

4 EmmaAnne  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:10:54am

I would never have thought that I’d find myself on the “security” side of a freedom versus security debate, but I do. I definitely want safeguards as to what is collected and (especially) how it is used, but if, say, the government spots a terrorist, I would like for them to be able to find out who he has been talking to.

So I guess I am a shill for government as well. Wow. :-)

5 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:11:05am

re: #3 Gus

Keeps changing. Reverted back to normal after this:

>“‘William H. Pauley III”’ (born 1952) is a [[United States federal judge]], Terrorist, Enemy of The People, and The Constitution of the United States.

Butthurt Level: Massive

Youtube Video

6 erik_t  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:11:48am

I’m not sure I agree with the ruling, but I am absolutely cast-in-concrete sure I’m going to enjoy watching the dudebros flail around and whine about it.

7 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:14:39am

BTW, Pauley was appointed by Bill Clinton.

Wikipedia page now has this message in red:

Cite error: There are tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist}} template (see the help page).

8 piratedan  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:16:24am

re: #4 EmmaAnne

I would never have thought that I’d find myself on the “security” side of a freedom versus security debate, but I do. I definitely want safeguards as to what is collected and (especially) how it is used, but if, say, the government spots a terrorist, I would like for them to be able to find out who he has been talking to.

So I guess I am a shill for government as well. Wow. :-)

right there with you… I’m not going to be naive enough t state that there isn’t the potential for abuse or even for the information to have already been abused in some cases, yet….

after 2001 and after Waco and watching the endless barrage of mass shootings/murders being done in the name of 2nd amendment remedies and the woeful skeleton of a mental healthcare system, I don’t mind a few folks on the payroll keeping an eye on things.

I can even get where organizations share data, we were looking for this, but we found this instead (child pornography, illegal trafficking in goods, drug smuggling) that were used to shut down crime, but the key point is probable cause and what constitutes it

9 Norbrook  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:16:39am

It’ll be interesting to see if this decision gets as much press as the earlier decision saying it wasn’t constitutional. Personally, I wouldn’t bet much money on that point, but that’s just because of my natural cynicism.

10 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:16:44am

We can do more for transparency and accountability, but unless we see the NSA as merely being a tool in a totalitarian surveillance state, we are missing the whole point of what they are doing.

11 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:17:06am

Dudebros…

12 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:19:38am

Today’s explosion in Beirut interrupts news cast
Youtube Video

they seem to be discussing something about Iran and Israel. The look on their faces is heartbreaking. Not fear, just sadness.

13 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:19:56am

re: #10 Sol Berdinowitz

We can do more for transparency and accountability, but unless we see the NSA as merely being a tool in a totalitarian surveillance state, we are missing the whole point of what they are doing.

But the Dudebros don’t care about the NSA’s real mission, they just want rage at the NSA to relieve their angsts and frustrations while posing as martyrs.

14 erik_t  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:20:18am

re: #11 Justanotherhuman

Dudebros…

@ryanjreilly
ACLU says it will appeal NSA ruling to the Second Circuit.

Eh, not really. The ACLU exists as a very worthwhile foil against these sorts of things. I am glad they’re appealing; I think this is something that needs to be emphatically ruled upon at the highest levels. It’s not a clear-cut issue; there are privacy concerns, and our naive pre-widespread-electronic notions of privacy, of public availability and common-carrier data collection, and other things of that nature are not well-adjusted to these modern issues.

15 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:21:05am

re: #14 erik_t

Eh, not really. The ACLU exists as a very worthwhile foil against these sorts of things. I am glad they’re appealing; I think this is something that needs to be emphatically ruled upon at the highest levels. It’s not a clear-cut issue; there are privacy concerns, and our naive pre-widespread-electronic notions of privacy, of public availability and common-carrier data collection, and other things of that nature are not well-adjusted to these modern issues.

I think you missed their public endorsement of Snowden?

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:23:19am

17 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:24:58am

Appeal. S.O.P.

18 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:25:19am

And that is the question I keep asking people that are saying that Snowjob revealed “crimes” that were being committed. I asked them what crimes? They start racking off the phone data stuff and looking into records, etc. And I say that is not illegal, the Patriot act says so. They say that it should be a crime then (these are mostly Obama haters that I get into this with). So I start calling them terrorist sympathizers, If they have done nothing wrong they have nothing to worry about, ask them why they want the terrorists to win, all the shit they told me way back when when I was voicing the same concerns (“What? They can make my librarian give them a list of all the books I have checked out over time and the librarian cannot tell me about the inquisition?”). I then check my (bare) wrist and tell them that my GIve A Fuck meter didn’t budge over their concerns now.


Note: I want the law gone over with a fine tooth comb and made better. There has to be a balance to keep us safe from attacks, but still be secure that no one is using the data incorrectly.

19 piratedan  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:25:20am

re: #15 Justanotherhuman

I think you missed their public endorsement of Snowden?

hey, they can’t be on the right side of everything (much like myself), despite their position on Snowden, they’re on the right side of a whole boatload of other issues, womens rights, workers rights, lgbt issues, etc

20 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:26:07am

Well, of course the ACLU will appeal to the full 2d Circuit. This case is likely going to head to the Supreme Court because of a split among the Circuits if the respective circuit courts uphold the district court rulings handed down so far.

But let’s also recall that one of the lessons from 9/11 was that we need to better connect different sources of intel, and try to discern communications patterns so as to potentially break terror plots before they are actually carried out.

Justice Pauley works in the shadow of Ground Zero here in Lower Manhattan. It’s not particularly surprising that he references the 9/11 attacks since that was a motivation for Congress to extent certain surveillance powers to the NSA to prevent another attack of this kind.

Here’s a copy of the ruling.

Note too that the Judge finds that his role is to determine whether the law is lawful, not whether it should be conducted or not; that’s a determination to be made by the Executive and Legislative branches.

IOW, he’s sticking to the law and calling on Congress and the President to address the scoping of the law if there’s outrage of what the law provides. To that point, he’s noted that Congress and the President have extended provisions multiple times since enactment.

21 SpaceJesus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:26:19am

RON PAUL

22 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:26:26am
23 erik_t  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:26:41am

re: #15 Justanotherhuman

I think you missed their public endorsement of Snowden?

Well, that’s fucking pants-on-head stupid. I never said I agreed with everything they do.

I still think the country is better served if the ACLU appeals this ruling.

24 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:27:48am

re: #21 SpaceJesus

RON PAUL NOR LUAP

FTFY

25 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:28:03am

Because it is.

I had a Christmas drag-down knockout e-fight over Snowden. And all I said was that I thought he was still a thief. To my credit, I didn’t use ad hominem attacks against any of my opponents, though they often did. Only twice - once to mock someone who said Obama betrayed them, and once for someone who called me a supporter of “corporate fascists” (to call them Snowden worshippers) did I stray. That was the most fun. I kept calm throughout and stayed with my argument, that what Snowden did was illegal regardless of the benefits.

The responses to that were increasingly angry - THE NSA IS ILLEGAL! - to which I responded that the actions of the NSA were irrelevant in my discussion of Snowden’s own illegal activity. That really pissed people off.

26 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:29:35am

Posted by Asher Wolf and re-tweeted by GG:


GG’s too busy giving a “keynote speech” by Skype no doubt to 30C3 hacker conference in Germany.

27 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:29:58am
28 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:31:20am

re: #18 Eventual Carrion

Note: I want the law gone over with a fine tooth comb and made better. There has to be a balance to keep us safe from attacks, but still be secure that no one is using the data incorrectly.

My position on this has always been that we’re currently in the unfortunate position of needing people like Snowden and Greenwald, whatever their flaws, in order to achieve this (the “going over with a fine tooth comb and made better” thing).

It would be better if there were an effective oversight function being performed by our elected government *without* the actions of such people being necessary, but my take there is that the political process is so screwed up right now (with plenty of blame to share around but most of it going to Republicans) that we just don’t have that luxury.

29 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:31:22am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Today’s explosion in Beirut interrupts news cast
[Embedded content]

they seem to be discussing something about Iran and Israel. The look on their faces is heartbreaking. Not fear, just sadness.

Wow. Nothing can be said about that video, it’s all there.

30 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:32:14am

Only 12 people in the office today. I needed a distraction like this. Let the splodey-head festivities commence.

31 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:32:24am

re: #18 Eventual Carrion

Snowden’s espionage (the theft of classified documents and disseminating them to persons not authorized to have them) involved documentation, means, and methods.

Those means and methods were revealed for all to see.

What they indicated was how the NSA was processing communications it intercepted in complying with federal law, including the FISA and Patriot Act provisions. At several points, the FISC ruled against the NSA on how it was conducting itself (a check and balance).

The problem for the Dudebros is that this spying capability for the US exists at all. They want to see the whole thing dismantled, which is a 2 yr old worldview in its stunning naivete.

The problem for everyone else is that the Dudebros and Greenwald in particular ignore that the NSA is operating because the Congress and Executive saw fit to carry out spying to keep the nation safe. It’s pretty safe assumption that the process could be better targeted but to not spy at all would be a dereliction of duty and responsibility by Congress and the President to keep the nation safe from threats that do exist.

All of the Snowden files are being published in a way that directly harms US foreign policy and national security, undermining relationships with foreign nations even though everyone knows that everyone else spies on them - that not doing so would put their own countries’ at risk as well.

32 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:33:23am
33 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:33:29am

Judge William H. Pauley derangement currently at eleventy.

34 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:33:30am

re: #27 darthstar

“When a person voluntarily conveys information to a third party, he forfeits his right to privacy in the information”

That’s actually very well-established law, even though the Greenwaldians freak out every time you mention it.

35 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:33:54am

If you want to see a bitter man trying to look important, the stream for GG is above.

36 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:34:32am

Headache all night, little sleep, just beginning to subside.

How has your day after the day after xmas been?

37 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:34:46am

re: #16 Charles Johnson

[@Green_Footballs And you can tell they’re “Greenwald fans” how exactly? @Valerie0714]

Well, this could be a bunch of NSA people doing this on purpose just to make Greenwald and Snowden look bad! After all, they are all about the dirty tricks.

//

38 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:34:51am

More of the Greenwald Show.

39 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:35:25am

Greenwald looks like he’s speaking in front of a curtain in an Al Qaeda cave.

40 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:35:35am

re: #36 FemNaziBitch

Headache all night, little sleep, just beginning to subside.

How has your day after the day after xmas been?

Unless you don’t want anyone to know, in that case just keep to yourself so alphabet agencies will never know!

41 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:35:43am

re: #23 erik_t

Well, that’s fucking pants-on-head stupid. I never said I agreed with everything they do.

I still think the country is better served if the ACLU appeals this ruling.

The Executive Director of the ACLU has a case of Dudebroness in the extreme. I don’t want to tar the organization with that characterization, but he is the executive director.

Edward Snowden is a Patriot
By Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director, ACLU

[…]

Edward Snowden is a great American and a true patriot. My colleagues and I at the ACLU are proud to be his legal advisors. We are committed to assisting him on legal issues he may confront.

Thank goodness for patriots like him, who are willing to endure personal sacrifice to defend truths that we hold self-evident, but which too many Americans take for granted.

42 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:36:18am

Now he’s talking about the “US Surveillance State”…fucking moron.

43 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:36:27am

re: #28 iossarian

My position on this has always been that we’re currently in the unfortunate position of needing people like Snowden and Greenwald, whatever their flaws, in order to achieve this (the “going over with a fine tooth comb and made better” thing).

It would be better if there were an effective oversight function being performed by our elected government *without* the actions of such people being necessary, but my take there is that the political process is so screwed up right now (with plenty of blame to share around but most of it going to Republicans) that we just don’t have that luxury.

But didn’t some of Snowjobs released stolen documents show that that is exactly what has been going on? There were oversights convened and suggestions put forth to rectify shortcomings that were being revealed. Seems like that was happening. My concern is that these recommendations and suggestions are not being carried out. I would like some assurance that this was happening.

44 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:36:36am

I’d rather watch video of fingernails on a blackboard than Glenn Greenwald whining and ranting. Man, am I ever getting sick of this guy’s fear-mongering and persecution complex.

45 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:37:01am

How long before we have evidence Snowden is being “forced” to help Russia into our information systems.

How can the guy be a patriot if he (de facto) defected to Russia?

46 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:37:05am

re: #23 erik_t

Well, that’s fucking pants-on-head stupid. I never said I agreed with everything they do.

I still think the country is better served if the ACLU appeals this ruling.

Look, I followed the ACLU for years, even worked for lawyers who also worked for the ACLU at one time, back in the 1970s. I can’t see either one of those 2 lawyers taking a position on a thief and traitor like Snowden as this current ACLU has.

I think today’s ACLU has been influenced quite a bit by libertarian types like Greenwald. That’s just MHO.

47 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:38:15am

re: #44 Charles Johnson

I’d rather watch video of fingernails on a blackboard than Glenn Greenwald whining and ranting. Man, am I ever getting sick of this guy’s fear-mongering and persecution complex.

I lasted three minutes. Do I get a medal?

48 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:38:33am

re: #44 Charles Johnson

I’d rather watch video of fingernails on a blackboard than Glenn Greenwald whining and ranting. Man, am I ever getting sick of this guy’s fear-mongering and persecution complex.

Is he worse than Palin and her voice?

Well, actually, her voice is the sound of fingernails on the blackboard, isn’t it.

49 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:39:02am

re: #28 iossarian

My position on this has always been that we’re currently in the unfortunate position of needing people like Snowden and Greenwald, whatever their flaws, in order to achieve this (the “going over with a fine tooth comb and made better” thing).

It would be better if there were an effective oversight function being performed by our elected government *without* the actions of such people being necessary, but my take there is that the political process is so screwed up right now (with plenty of blame to share around but most of it going to Republicans) that we just don’t have that luxury.

I think Greenwald and Snowden have made that effort more difficult with their actions. They distract from what the true discussion would be about with their grandstanding. And they’ve polarized the camps further and made the discussion harder to have without the whole “patriotism”, “traitor”, etc. etc. crap coming out.

50 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:39:42am

re: #42 darthstar

Now he’s talking about the “US Surveillance State”…fucking moron.

And what does he call Russia?

51 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:40:05am

Those freaking out about this decision in large part do not like the nature of law in the US. In the United States, the Congress makes the law (within the bounds of the Constitution), not the courts. If a law or policy is constitutional, then the courts cannot abrogate it. Instead, those who dislike the law must petition Congress for its repeal. Congress, however, will not repeal the law because they don’t want their constituents attacked by terrorists. Thus the dudebros come to hate the way the is handled in the US, as they cannot accept other people feeling differently than they do.

52 CriticalDragon1177  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:40:37am

Charles Johnson

These people ought to be ashamed of themselves. Its truly pathetic how they attacking the judge like this, since they didn’t like his ruling.

53 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:41:02am
54 CriticalDragon1177  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:42:19am

re: #39 darthstar

Greenwald looks like he’s speaking in front of a curtain in an Al Qaeda cave.

[Embedded image]

What a joke.

55 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:43:09am

re: #39 darthstar

Greenwald looks like he’s speaking in front of a curtain in an Al Qaeda cave.

[Embedded image]

Can you Tweet that?

56 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:43:10am

re: #36 FemNaziBitch

Headache all night, little sleep, just beginning to subside.

How has your day after the day after xmas been?

Breakfast with brother and niece before they left for points north. Sandwich and soup for lunch. Being pissed off here at work due to scheduler jobs not running correctly.

57 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:43:34am

This is funny as hell. When I went to the site GG linked on his twatter acct, this is the message I got from Firefox:

This Connection is Untrusted

You have asked Firefox to connect securely to events.ccc.de, but we can’t confirm that your connection is secure.

Normally, when you try to connect securely, sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are going to the right place. However, this site’s identity can’t be verified.
What Should I Do?

If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn’t continue.

58 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:44:27am

re: #41 wrenchwench

The Executive Director of the ACLU has a case of Dudebroness in the extreme. I don’t want to tar the organization with that characterization, but he is the executive director.

Edward Snowden is a Patriot
By Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director, ACLU

[…]

Edward Snowden is a great American and a true patriot. My colleagues and I at the ACLU are proud to be his legal advisors. We are committed to assisting him on legal issues he may confront.

Thank goodness for patriots like him, who are willing to endure personal sacrifice to defend truths that we hold self-evident, but which too many Americans take for granted.

Improved.

59 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:45:09am

re: #50 FemNaziBitch

And what does he call Russia?

The last refuge of Ed Snowden (a dodge and weave to avoid the unquestioned fact that Russia routinely violates civil and human rights, and stomps on free speech and political speech on a regular basis).

Pussy Riot can now be reached for comment, considering that Putin just released them from prison for speaking their mind against Putin’s actions and those of the Church.

60 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:45:28am

People United for Separation of Personal Beliefs from Laws and Politics

What a name for a facebook page.

Can’t get any clearer than that ..

61 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:45:53am

re: #36 FemNaziBitch

Headache all night, little sleep, just beginning to subside.

How has your day after the day after xmas been?

The war on Christmas is ongoing. For the most part America is in a very tricky stage…The Battle of The Bulge!

Come the New Year we implement to resolve all of the war issues through a new Marshall Plan, a way to rebuild the devastated slim bodies of America.

/

62 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:47:03am

re: #53 darthstar

Why does Toby Keith hate America?

63 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:48:27am

re: #62 Internet Tough Guy

Why does Toby Keith hate America?

Because it’s a surveillance state?

64 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:48:37am

re: #41 wrenchwench

The Executive Director of the ACLU has a case of Dudebroness in the extreme. I don’t want to tar the organization with that characterization, but he is the executive director.

You know, I always liked the work of the ACLU, but the wheels are a bit out of alignment on this one. I wonder if they are using this as a new way to raise funds. It might bring in a whole lot of bucks from the younger dudebros they might not otherwise get.

65 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:48:57am

Am I getting my memes crossed, again?

66 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:50:06am

re: #44 Charles Johnson

I’d rather watch video of fingernails on a blackboard than Glenn Greenwald whining and ranting. Man, am I ever getting sick of this guy’s fear-mongering and persecution complex.

I get sick of even seeing an image of him.

67 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:50:18am

OMG! A friend from HS just posted that his parent’s 60th anniversary is today.

I cannot be that old.

68 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:51:10am

re: #43 Eventual Carrion

But didn’t some of Snowjobs released stolen documents show that that is exactly what has been going on? There were oversights convened and suggestions put forth to rectify shortcomings that were being revealed. Seems like that was happening. My concern is that these recommendations and suggestions are not being carried out. I would like some assurance that this was happening.

Emphasis mine - my take is that we’re more likely to get such assurance given the current situation, which is its benefit (it also has very real negative consequences, obviously). I don’t think the current scrutiny of the Patriot Act would be happening without Snowden’s actions, for example.

re: #49 Feline Fearless Leader

I think Greenwald and Snowden have made that effort more difficult with their actions. They distract from what the true discussion would be about with their grandstanding. And they’ve polarized the camps further and made the discussion harder to have without the whole “patriotism”, “traitor”, etc. etc. crap coming out.

I think this is a very reasonable point. But I do think you have to wonder whether there would have been much “true discussion” if the Snowden breach had never happened.

69 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:51:21am

re: #47 darthstar

I lasted three minutes. Do I get a medal?

You might qualify for a straight jacket and a padded cell (phone)!

70 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:51:29am

re: #64 ObserverArt

You know, I always liked the work of the ACLU, but the wheels are a bit out of alignment on this one. I wonder if they are using this as a new way to raise funds. It might bring in a whole lot of bucks from the younger dudebros they might not otherwise get.

Even so, isn’t that kind of courting a type of Bad Craziness just the sort of thing that has ended up badly damaging the Republican Party?

71 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:52:17am

re: #66 ObserverArt

I get sick of even seeing an image of him.

Get Gus to put a beard and some eyeshadow on him for you.
/

72 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:52:25am
But I do think you have to wonder whether there would have been much “true discussion” if the Snowden breach had never happened.
Read more at littlegreenfootballs.com

Outside the blogs, that isn’t happening and doesn’t matter. Most people don’t care.

73 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:53:18am

re: #69 ObserverArt

You might qualify for a straight jacket and a padded cell (phone)!

Don’t take it, Darth, it’s an Obamaphone!

//

74 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:56:26am

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

Even so, isn’t that kind of courting a type of Bad Craziness just the sort of thing that has ended up badly damaging the Republican Party?

I couldn’t at first understand why the ACLU represented the KKK in the Skokie case until I read it.

But that was a clear-cut case of a free speech issue, as much as they are despised by most.

Snowden’s shenanigans arent that clear-cut in the least, no matter how GG and the ACLU try to frame it at this point.

75 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:56:28am

re: #68 iossarian

Emphasis mine - my take is that we’re more likely to get such assurance given the current situation, which is its benefit (it also has very real negative consequences, obviously). I don’t think the current scrutiny of the Patriot Act would be happening without Snowden’s actions, for example.

I think this is a very reasonable point. But I do think you have to wonder whether there would have been much “true discussion” if the Snowden breach had never happened.

It would be complex, tricky, and probably have to be done behind closed doors in any case. Since the subjects you choose to talk about and also not talk about all display information about your current knowledge and interests.

And most of the Snowden case is espionage trying to wrap itself into a flimsy cloak of patriotism.

76 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:56:30am

re: #64 ObserverArt

You know, I always liked the work of the ACLU, but the wheels are a bit out of alignment on this one. I wonder if they are using this as a new way to raise funds. It might bring in a whole lot of bucks from the younger dudebros they might not otherwise get.

They’ve done a lot of good work, but the principled attitude that makes it right to defend Nazis’ right to march in Skokie always kept me from being a supporter. Not that it’s an incorrect principle, necessarily, but I don’t have to join them in it.

77 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:58:26am

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

Even so, isn’t that kind of courting a type of Bad Craziness just the sort of thing that has ended up badly damaging the Republican Party?

Yes, but it just seems that no one considers long term anymore, it’s all about the immediate. It is everywhere anymore. Not one thing we talk about here at LGF considers how jumping on a bandwagon means it may never slow down enough to jump back off before it crashes and takes all the riders with it.

Reason, calculation, study, thought…nah!

78 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:58:33am

re: #55 Gus

Can you Tweet that?

Like this?

79 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:58:34am

re: #72 Internet Tough Guy

Outside the blogs, that isn’t happening and doesn’t matter. Most people don’t care.

I don’t think that’s really true. There are proposals to reform the legal apparatus under which the NSA surveillance is carried out. They may not go anywhere but they exist. I suppose it’s a matter of opinion whether they constitute action “outside the blogs” or not.

Obviously, one can disagree over lots of points here:

- is the NSA surveillance desirable overall?
- is it legal?
- if legal, should the law be changed?

etc. But I think it’s a stretch to say that the system would be under the same level of scrutiny /sans/ Snowden.

80 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:59:57am

haha

81 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:00:03am

re: #78 darthstar

Aw come on. It’s not his fault that he’s doing this from the comfort of a hotel room, which took its design cues from a cave in Waziristan.

82 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:00:07am

re: #78 darthstar

Like this?

[Embedded content]

The Al Qaeda cave studio is now serving tropical drinks.

83 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:00:10am

re: #71 Feline Fearless Leader

Get Gus to put a beard and some eyeshadow on him for you.
/

I photoshop images too. Every time I load an image of Greenwald I get error messages and my spam/virus detectors go all haywire.

/

84 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:01:12am

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Don’t take it, Darth, it’s an Obamaphone!

//

Distributed by the NSA…ready to go!

/

85 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:01:29am

re: #71 Feline Fearless Leader

Get Gus to put a beard and some eyeshadow on him for you.
/

If I put eyeshadow on Greenwald it would lead to mass outrage. Heck, you can’t even call him melodramatic. :D

86 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:02:30am

re: #79 iossarian

I don’t think that’s really true. There are proposals to reform the legal apparatus under which the NSA surveillance is carried out. They may not go anywhere but they exist. I suppose it’s a matter of opinion whether they constitute action “outside the blogs” or not.

Obviously, one can disagree over lots of points here:

- is the NSA surveillance desirable overall?
- is it legal?
- if legal, should the law be changed?

etc. But I think it’s a stretch to say that the system would be under the same level of scrutiny /sans/ Snowden.

We really don’t know if that’s true or not.

After all, isn’t one of Snowden’s memes that there were a “number” of NSA employees who had disagreements with the agency’s operations? Seems I can recall him saying that in one interview.

If that is actually the case, I’d think there would be at least one person in that operation that would have eventually emerged as a true whistleblower—unless, of course, he or she were just another mercenary contractor like Snowden, or a documented malcontent.

87 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:02:38am

Don’t know who this guy is, but I like the way he tweets.

88 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:02:56am

T-shirts for Charity.

Wearable Hope

incl: National Domestic Violence Hotline.

89 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:03:50am

re: #81 lawhawk

Aw come on. It’s not his fault that he’s doing this from the comfort of a hotel room, which took its design cues from a cave in Waziristan.

Probably from the comfort of his own house in Rio, by Skype, which is his preferred method. He’s not going to travel internationally.

What, and be stopped like Miranda?

90 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:04:07am

re: #87 darthstar

Don’t know who this guy is, but I like the way he tweets.

[Embedded content]

He has an account here, but he hasn’t posted anything yet.

91 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:04:14am

92 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:04:19am

re: #75 Feline Fearless Leader

It would be complex, tricky, and probably have to be done behind closed doors in any case. Since the subjects you choose to talk about and also not talk about all display information about your current knowledge and interests.

And most of the Snowden case is espionage trying to wrap itself into a flimsy cloak of patriotism.

This is obviously true (the first part). Again, I’d like to think that the government was doing its job appropriately here - the question of how much transparency is desirable in this particular area is fraught.

93 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:05:27am

US is a surveillance state.

OK.

What does that mean?

Who has been disappeared as a result?

94 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:06:27am

re: #76 wrenchwench

They’ve done a lot of good work, but the principled attitude that makes it right to defend Nazis’ right to march in Skokie always kept me from being a supporter. Not that it’s an incorrect principle, necessarily, but I don’t have to join them in it.

Skokie was a tough call. I think they got it right. It fell under the ol’ “freedom isn’t always pretty” line of thinking.

95 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:08:43am

re: #94 ObserverArt

Maybe our society’s “principles” are not some absolute of the universe, but only a fleeting set of propositions that will be discarded some day anyway?

96 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:10:31am

re: #86 Justanotherhuman

If that is actually the case, I’d think there would be at least one person in that operation that would have eventually emerged as a true whistleblower—unless, of course, he or she were just another mercenary contractor like Snowden, or a documented malcontent.

So one thing I definitely think about the whole situation is that, now that the information is public, the focus on Snowden as an individual, or on any other individual, should be separated from the larger questions I outlined above:

- is the NSA surveillance desirable?
- is it legal?
- if so, should the legal framework be changed?

For the record, my answer to the first question is “yes, mostly”. But I also believe that the fact that we’re having a public debate about it is a good thing overall.

97 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:11:36am

re: #95 freetoken

Maybe our society’s “principles” are not some absolute of the universe, but only a fleeting set of propositions that will be discarded some day anyway?

NONONONNOOOO!!! WE ARE THE SHINING CITY ON THE HILL

98 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:11:52am

re: #93 FemNaziBitch

US is a surveillance state.

OK.

What does that mean?

Who has been disappeared as a result?

Do you mean “within the US” or in the world at large?

99 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:11:56am

re: #94 ObserverArt

Skokie was a tough call. I think they got it right. It fell under the ol’ “freedom isn’t always pretty” line of thinking.

I’m with you on that. “I might not agree with what you are saying but I will fight to the end to defend your right to say it”, just as I would be on the other side of the street saying/displaying how much I think it is BS what they are saying.

100 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:12:37am

No doubt the NSA had a hand in building this case?

California Man Pleads Guilty to Terror Count

abcnews.go.com

“The Los Angeles U.S. attorney’s office says a Southern California man has admitted attempting to assist al-Qaida and has pleaded guilty to a federal terrorism offense.

“Prosecutors say 24-year-old Sinh Vinh Ngo Nguyen of Garden Grove pleaded guilty Friday to one count of attempting to provide material support to a designated foreign terrorist organization.

“Officials say Nguyen intended to assist al-Qaida by traveling to Pakistan to provide weapons training to members of the terrorist group.

“Nguyen will be sentenced on March 21 and faces a maximum penalty of 15 years in federal prison.”

101 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:13:18am

re: #98 iossarian

Do you mean “within the US” or in the world at large?

Well, I’m not as up on this particular topic as I am on others. It seems the uproar is mostly about domestic surveillance —no?

102 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:13:33am

re: #95 freetoken

Maybe our society’s “principles” are not some absolute of the universe, but only a fleeting set of propositions that will be discarded some day anyway?

Rights and principles are ultimately a part of the social contract. What is included in them can, and has, evolved through time.

103 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:13:57am

re: #94 ObserverArt

Skokie was a tough call. I think they got it right. It fell under the ol’ “freedom isn’t always pretty” line of thinking.

In Germany I have to admit that they are so ardently anti-Nazi that they are sometimes, well, fascist about it.

One sometimes gets the notion that they simply do not want to have a discussion about that aspect of their their past beyond “This must never happen again!”, but the reasons for the appeal and success of fascism in their country are conveniently swept under the rug.

104 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:14:03am

re: #100 Justanotherhuman

No doubt the NSA had a hand in building this case?

California Man Pleads Guilty to Terror Count

abcnews.go.com

“The Los Angeles U.S. attorney’s office says a Southern California man has admitted attempting to assist al-Qaida and has pleaded guilty to a federal terrorism offense.

“Prosecutors say 24-year-old Sinh Vinh Ngo Nguyen of Garden Grove pleaded guilty Friday to one count of attempting to provide material support to a designated foreign terrorist organization.

“Officials say Nguyen intended to assist al-Qaida by traveling to Pakistan to provide weapons training to members of the terrorist group.

“Nguyen will be sentenced on March 21 and faces a maximum penalty of 15 years in federal prison.”

That is ok, they aren’t true murican’s

105 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:14:35am

re: #64 ObserverArt

You know, I always liked the work of the ACLU, but the wheels are a bit out of alignment on this one. I wonder if they are using this as a new way to raise funds. It might bring in a whole lot of bucks from the younger dudebros they might not otherwise get.

But they lose my generation of lefties, and we’re not paying off student loans.

106 EmmaAnne  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:14:41am

re: #94 ObserverArt

Skokie was a tough call. I think they got it right. It fell under the ol’ “freedom isn’t always pretty” line of thinking.

Very true. Miranda (of Miranda warnings) was a truly horrible human being, but even horrible humans beings can’t be subject to forced confessions if we want our justice system to have hope of working properly.

107 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:15:51am

I just need a confirmation here. At this point we are talking about metadata associated with the phone conversation, not an actual voice trap of the call content? I have a lot fewer problems with metadata collection than actual content. I also agree that even with just metadata (and I know that it’s hardly an insignificant amount of information contained in it) one loses a major ration of privacy.

I recall hearing about something a few weeks back, it may have been called “homogeneous encryption” but I’m a bit fuzzy on that. Basically it was an encryption technique that still allowed data mine and analysis on the metadata, but the data itself was encrypted. The idea was that only when a pattern or other hit was found, then under a court order just that part of the data could be decrypted. An approach like that would make me a bit happier with the situation.

RBS

108 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:16:24am

re: #102 William Barnett-Lewis

Rights and principles are ultimately a part of the social contract. What is included in them can, and has, evolved through time.

I know pornography when I see it!

Let’s run a few more tests to see if my porn detection is calibrated correctly.

109 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:16:38am

re: #101 FemNaziBitch

Well, I’m not as up on this particular topic as I am on others. It seems the uproar is mostly about domestic surveillance —no?

Yes - I was only pointing out that quite a few people around the world may well have “disappeared” as a result of the surveillance state characteristics of the US.

But having said that, I actually agree that *within the US* we have it pretty good in terms of freedom from the negative consequences of government surveillance.

110 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:17:20am

US MEDIA IS IN CAHOOTS WITH THE US GOVERNMENT!
Sarah Palin Glenn Greenwald

111 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:21:14am

re: #107 RealityBasedSteve

I just need a confirmation here. At this point we are talking about metadata associated with the phone conversation, not an actual voice trap of the call content. I have a lot fewer problems with metadata collection than actual content. I also agree that even with just metadata (and I know that it’s hardly an insignificant amount of information contained in it) one loses a major ration of privacy.

I recall hearing about something a few weeks back, it may have been called “homogeneous encryption” but I’m a bit fuzzy on that. Basically it was an encryption technique that still allowed data mine and analysis on the metadata, but the data itself was encrypted. The idea was that only when a pattern or other hit was found, then under a court order just that part of the data could be decrypted. An approach like that would make me a bit happier with the situation.

RBS

This goes along with the President saying they could tone down the NSA and just let the phone companies keep the records and then if needed go to the courts to dig into the data.

People just flat do not understand digital data and how easy it is to store it. They have no idea about meta data even as they go around the internet and see little ads pop up on things they were just looking at or bought a few days ago.

I bet the NSA could just come out and say…”we are no longer collecting data”*


*”We will be using the data collected by everyone else you already deal with and freely gave out. There, take that!!!”

112 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:21:44am

re: #110 Gus

US MEDIA IS IN CAHOOTS WITH THE US GOVERNMENT!
Sarah Palin Glenn Greenwald

A true moronic convergance.

113 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:24:06am

re: #111 ObserverArt

That would be ultimate trolling, of both Glenn and Google.

114 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:24:22am

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

A true moronic convergance.

Libertarian/RW perhaps. GG dropped his last liberal veil some time ago.

115 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:25:33am

re: #113 Internet Tough Guy

That would be ultimate trolling, of both Glenn and Google.

I know of at least one individual (not me) who had to do some pretty serious tap-dancing to explain away the pop up ads that started showing up while she was browsing on the computer he used.

RBS

116 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:26:17am

“A study by researchers at Max-Planck-Institut für Psycholinguistik concluded that the universal word is huh. “Interesting,” said an expert in um and uh.”
harpers.org

117 dog philosopher  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:27:18am

my ruling is that phone surveillance is legal when it’s legal, but it’s definitely illegal when illegal

that should take care of it

118 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:27:27am

re: #110 Gus

US MEDIA IS IN CAHOOTS WITH THE US GOVERNMENT!
Sarah Palin Glenn Greenwald

I went to Cahoots once. Nice place to visit, but you wouldn’t want to live there.

119 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:28:05am

re: #117 dog philosopher

my ruling is that phone surveillance is legal when it’s legal, but it’s definitely illegal when illegal

that should take care of it

Except for the gray areas.

120 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:29:26am

re: #118 darthstar

I went to Cahoots once. Nice place to visit, but you wouldn’t want to live there.

I like the word, cahoots. :D

121 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:29:53am

re: #117 dog philosopher

my ruling is that phone surveillance is legal when it’s legal, but it’s definitely illegal when illegal

that should take care of it

That’s like deja vu all over again

122 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:30:12am

Post-holiday crud in play—got to put that kid in quarantine when he visits. BBL

123 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:30:22am

re: #121 Eventual Carrion

That’s like deja vu all over again

Wait - didn’t you post that a bit earlier?

124 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:31:40am

re: #116 darthstar

After calculating that mid-size and large mammals take twenty-one seconds on average to empty their bladders, fluid-dynamics researchers proposed a Law of Urination.

Definitely something to be included in the next edition of THHGTTG.

125 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:31:43am

Etymology
This word was first used in popular English literature sometime before 1829. It comes perhaps from French cahute (“cabin”), from Old French, possibly blend of cabane (“cabin”), and hutte (“hut”). Also thought to be from French cohorte.

Pronunciation]
enPR: kə-ho͞otsʹ, IPA(key): /kəˈhuːts/

Noun
cahoots (plural only)
Collusion or collaboration to nefarious ends.
Being frustrated or up in cahoots.
They probably give it back to him; they’re all in cahoots. — Rabbit at Rest, John Updike
Usage notes
Cahoots is only used in the phrases “in cahoots” (for collusion within a group), “in cahoots with” (for collusion between two or more)

126 dog philosopher  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:32:04am

re: #118 darthstar

I went to Cahoots once. Nice place to visit, but you wouldn’t want to live there.

isn’t it close to kamloops?

127 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:34:01am

re: #126 dog philosopher

isn’t it close to kamloops?

Is it far from Effigy, where they like to burn people?

128 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:34:06am

Okay, veering OT for a sec to revisit the topic of the last article as I think it’s worth pointing out. My jaw just almost the floor when I found out a couple of years ago how early some U.S. states allow marriage. All listed are with parental consent, however where noted judicial consent is also required.

I would add that the vast majority of states require that both parties be 18 for marriage without parental consent, and 16 seems to be fairly standard for marriage with parental consent.

I guess what shocked me the most was that with a few exceptions the states with the youngest legally marriageable ages were outside the Bible Belt, in several cases very blue/liberal states.

Alaska
Male/Female: 14 (judicial consent required)

California
No age limit with parental consent

Delaware
No age limit with parental consent, but judicial consent also required

Hawaii
Male/Female: 15 (judicial consent required)

Indiana
Male/Female: 15 (judicial consent required)

Kansas
Male/Female: 15 (judicial consent required)

Maryland
Male/Female: 15 (if pregnancy exists, judicial consent required)

Massachusetts
Male 14; Female 12

Mississippi
No age limit with parental consent. The legal minimum age without consent is 17 for males and 15 for females—this is the youngest in the nation for females. Oddly, it seems that in the case of females this is under the minimum age of consent for sexual activity (see the 3rd source link below, the PDF).

Missouri
Male/Female: 15

New Hampshire
Male 14; Female 13

New York
Male/Female: 14 (judicial consent required)

North Carolina
Male/Female: 14 (judicial consent required)

Sources:
Cornell University Law School - Marriage Laws
FindLaw - State-by-State Marriage “Age of Consent” Laws
Legal Age of Consent for Marriage and Sex for the 50 United States (PDF)

129 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:35:09am
130 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:35:49am

re: #126 dog philosopher

isn’t it close to kamloops?

Isn’t that a breakfast cereal?

131 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:35:52am

re: #128 CuriousLurker

All laws that date from the 18th and 19th century. Can anybody in our day and age recommend marriage fo anyone under 18?

132 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:36:08am

In case you were wondering, the Pope is still NOT that cool.

133 The Mountain That Blogs  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:37:10am

re: #128 CuriousLurker

Wow, Massachusetts. That probably goes back to Colonial times.

134 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:37:22am

re: #118 darthstar

I went to Cahoots once. Nice place to visit, but you wouldn’t want to live there.

Cahoots. Isn’t that a lot like Chotchkie’s, just with more flair? /

135 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:37:41am

re: #128 CuriousLurker

In the old days, before modern mores, some of my ancestors were married young. I suppose puberty was seen as indicating someone is ready.

136 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:37:55am

re: #125 RealityBasedSteve

Etymology
This word was first used in popular English literature sometime before 1829. It comes perhaps from French cahute (“cabin”), from Old French, possibly blend of cabane (“cabin”), and hutte (“hut”). Also thought to be from French cohorte.

Pronunciation]
enPR: kə-ho͞otsʹ, IPA(key): /kəˈhuːts/

Noun
cahoots (plural only)
Collusion or collaboration to nefarious ends.
Being frustrated or up in cahoots.
They probably give it back to him; they’re all in cahoots. — Rabbit at Rest, John Updike
Usage notes
Cahoots is only used in the phrases “in cahoots” (for collusion within a group), “in cahoots with” (for collusion between two or more)

Thanks…after Gus posted it, I was gonna go look it up to see the root of the word. Now I don’t have to, which is one of the great benefits with the commentators here at LGF. People are usually on their game around these parts.

137 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:38:15am

re: #129 wrenchwench

138 sagehen  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:39:11am

re: #106 EmmaAnne

Very true. Miranda (of Miranda warnings) was a truly horrible human being, but even horrible humans beings can’t be subject to forced confessions if we want our justice system to have hope of working properly.

And when they retried him without using the forced confession… he was convicted again anyway, there was enough other evidence.

139 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:39:26am

re: #126 dog philosopher

isn’t it close to kamloops?

I worked at a place called Kamloops one summer (campground on Shasta Lake in Northern California).

140 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:40:05am

I went to Cahoots to see Chilliwack.

Youtube Video

RBS

141 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:40:06am

re: #109 iossarian

Yes - I was only pointing out that quite a few people around the world may well have “disappeared” as a result of the surveillance state characteristics of the US.

But having said that, I actually agree that *within the US* we have it pretty good in terms of freedom from the negative consequences of government surveillance.

Yes, the double-standard is most frustrating. I am trying to focus on what Snowden seems to be saying.

142 Aunty Entity Dragon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:40:11am

re: #28 iossarian

My position on this has always been that we’re currently in the unfortunate position of needing people like Snowden and Greenwald, whatever their flaws, in order to achieve this (the “going over with a fine tooth comb and made better” thing).

It would be better if there were an effective oversight function being performed by our elected government *without* the actions of such people being necessary, but my take there is that the political process is so screwed up right now (with plenty of blame to share around but most of it going to Republicans) that we just don’t have that luxury.

This. As much as I dislike the dudebro bunch, I must reluctantly concede that our government cannot effectively provide oversight on itself to protect our liberty. If anything, the security apparatus has become so vast that nobody truly knows how many people actually work in it or what many or most of them actually do.

That is a recipe for abuse, and our country already has a long, long history of abusing national security organs to quell dissent, smear private citizens from MLK to Viola Liuzzo, and engage in ridiculously disproportionate force to disrupt demonstrators ranging from the Bonus Army of WW I to Occupy demonstrators.

Simply put, the power we give to an agency like the NSA to “keep us safe” is just as easily used to harm us…and all it takes is the wrong kind of President and cabinet to do it. Remember Bush and the law school grads from Falwell’s Liberty University who went on a witch hunt in the Justice department looking for gays and lesbians? Anybody here think that the next GOP president will keep his or her hands off of the NSA when it comes to looking for lefties to make an example of?

143 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:40:12am
144 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:40:46am

re: #136 ObserverArt

Thanks…after Gus posted it, I was gonna go look it up to see the root of the word. Now I don’t have to, which is one of the great benefits with the commentators here at LGF. People are usually on their game around these parts.

one cahoots with one’s cohorts?

145 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:42:33am


Is this good or bad for criminals?

146 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:43:16am

I’m in cahoots with Charles Johnson!!

//

147 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:43:19am

re: #143 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Had a friend like that who was a bit conservative but bearable until he moved back home to West Virginia…finally unfreinded him on FB because his postings started to look that the back of that SUV that someone put up here in a previous thread…

148 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:44:29am
149 dog philosopher  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:44:58am

re: #142 Aunty Entity Dragon

the next GOP president

if there ever is one

150 Aunty Entity Dragon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:45:06am

re: #146 Gus

I’m in cahoots with Charles Johnson!!

//

Ya lop-eared long legged galoot! (say in your best Yosemite Sam voice)

151 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:45:17am

re: #131 Sol Berdinowitz

All laws that date from the 18th and 19th century. Can anybody in our day and age recommend marriage fo anyone under 18?

Heh, personally I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone under 30.

Seriously though in Puerto Rico it’s 21; 18 if you have parental consent (or a pregnancy is involved).

I’m just saying we freak out over child brides in other countries, then I find out some of our states… *thud* Yeah, I know it probably won’t happen that a 12- or 13-year-old girl’s parents would give consent, but still… Sheesh, why are the laws still on the books then?

152 iossarian  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:45:21am

Got to go. Close out the year in style, Lizardim!

153 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:45:25am

re: #146 Gus

I’m in cahoots with Charles Johnson!!

//

No you are not. You are a dickslapped reprobate who follow his piped tunes. I read it on a tweet somewhere.

//rofl

RBS

154 dog philosopher  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:46:56am

re: #148 FemNaziBitch

“Republicans talk about the great recession like it fell out of the sky”

seriously, i remember being told at the time that the recession was caused by “democrat politicians forcing banks to give mortgages to unqualified minorities”

unquote

155 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:47:05am

re: #146 Gus

I’m in cahoots with Charles Johnson!!

//

That bastard.

156 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:47:08am

re: #151 CuriousLurker

Heh, personally I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone under 30.

Seriously though in Puerto Rico it’s 21; 18 if you have parental consent (or a pregnancy is involved).

I’m just saying we freak out over child brides in other countries, then I find out some of our states… *thud* Yeah, I know it probably won’t happen that a 12- or 13-year-old girl’s parents would give consent, but still… Sheesh, why are the laws still on the books then?

40. I’m with waiting till 40.

157 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:47:19am

re: #151 CuriousLurker

There are lots of dumb laws on the books. But few have the time or inclination to clear the books of them. Some states have yet to do a recodification (or original condification for that matter) to clean up the statutes on the books. That includes everything from drafting errors to laws that ought to be repealed.

158 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:47:35am

re: #145 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]


Is this good or bad for criminals?

Pity that isn’t the earliest Mickey Mouse toons instead. But we have bad copyright laws specifically to prevent that from happening.

159 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:47:51am

re: #151 CuriousLurker

Heh, personally I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone under 30.

Seriously though in Puerto Rico it’s 21; 18 if you have parental consent (or a pregnancy is involved).

I’m just saying we freak out over child brides in other countries, then I find out some of our states… *thud* Yeah, I know it probably won’t happen that a 12- or 13-year-old girl’s parents would give consent, but still… Sheesh, why are the laws still on the books then?

I used to say that anything one did before age 21 didn’t count. I was in my 30’s. Then I raised it to 25.

I’m still holding at 25.

If you wait much longer and want children, you are going to be in the “my back hurts” stage and running around toting elementary aged children to their various activities.

It wears on the body.

160 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:48:08am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

That bastard.

He killed Kenny!

161 gwangung  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:48:27am

re: #154 dog philosopher

seriously, i remember being told at the time that the recession was caused by “democrat politicians forcing banks to give mortgages to unqualified minorities”

unquote

That’s rank innumerancy, by the way. All the “poor people loans”—-if they ALL went belly up, it wouldn’t be a burp in the economic landscape.

162 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:49:48am

re: #145 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]


Is this good or bad for criminals?

I remember learning on NPR that is the reason (copyright law) that the BBC released all The Beatles tapes they had. If they didn’t publish them, they would fall into public domain. Now they keep right$ to them.

RBS

163 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:50:04am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

He’s just a pawn in game of life.

164 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:50:09am

re: #159 FemNaziBitch

I used to say that anything one did before age 21 didn’t count. I was in my 30’s. Then I raised it to 25.

I’m still holding at 25.

If you wait much longer and want children, you are going to be in the “my back hurts” stage and running around toting elementary aged children to their various activities.

It wears on the body.

You don’t have to be married to have children, though.

165 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:50:45am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

That bastard.

SPAM BLOCK THEM NOW!!! //

166 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:50:56am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

That bastard.

Watch it guys….. The boss is here. Look busy. {pass it around}


RBS

167 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:51:00am

re: #164 wrenchwench

You don’t have to be married to have children, though.

Get out!

168 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:51:23am

re: #161 gwangung

That’s rank innumerancy, by the way. All the “poor people loans”—-if they ALL went belly up, it wouldn’t be a burp in the economic landscape.

Much of RWNJ philosophy depends on rank innumeracy.

169 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:51:46am
170 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:52:12am

re: #153 RealityBasedSteve

No you are not. You are a dickslapped reprobate who follow his piped tunes. I read it on a tweet somewhere.

//rofl

RBS

Going to the cahootenanny tonight?

171 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:52:13am

re: #146 Gus

I’m in cahoots with Charles Johnson!!

//

We all are Gus…we all are.


(GroupThink) /

172 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:52:40am

re: #169 FemNaziBitch

Did the survey go as far as to ask these f*cking crackers just why it should not be allowed?

173 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:52:44am
174 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:53:26am

re: #167 CuriousLurker

Get out!

That probably wasn’t supposed to sound like Elaine (of Seinfeld) ‘cause she wouldn’t talk in purple comic sans, but it did.

175 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:53:36am

re: #170 Gus

Going to the cahootenanny tonight?

OHHH OHHH OUCH OHHHH OOHHH

Ok, that WAS a good one.

RBS

176 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:54:08am

re: #150 Aunty Entity Dragon

Ya lop-eared long legged galoot! (say in your best Yosemite Sam voice)

Hey I paid my two bits to see Greenwald dance, so dance dagnabbit!

; )

177 geoffm33  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:55:02am

re: #154 dog philosopher

seriously, i remember being told at the time that the recession was caused by “democrat politicians forcing banks to give mortgages to unqualified minorities”

unquote

I remember believing it. Seems like another lifetime.

178 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:55:09am

re: #164 wrenchwench

You don’t have to be married to have children, though.

that’s why I said “and want children”

179 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:55:17am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

That bastard.

Trolling yourself I see…

180 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:56:02am

re: #169 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

That is a smaller percentage of Republicans supporting a ban on interracial marriage than I would’ve expected in those states.

181 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:59:30am

re: #180 aagcobb

That is a smaller percentage of Republicans supporting a ban on interracial marriage than I would’ve expected in those states.

Those are the ones who want it outlawed again. Add to that the portion who simply disapprove of interracial marriage and I suspect the percentage would be a lot higher.

182 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:59:31am

re: #179 ObserverArt

Trolling yourself I see…

Can Charles create a ban so strong that He can’t unban Himself?

RBS

183 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:59:50am

re: #174 wrenchwench

That probably wasn’t supposed to sound like Elaine (of Seinfeld) ‘cause she wouldn’t talk in purple comic sans, but it did.

Youtube Video

On that note, time for me to GET OUT!

Later, lizards. ;)

184 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:03:27pm

Damn, I’m tired of apologists for the Pope.

There is NO Economic Justice with out Full Reproductive Rights.

How hard is this to comprehend.

How can one hold a job and have a satisfying career without the ability to control one’s reproduction.

185 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:03:39pm

re: #53 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Wow. Some of the comments to that Toby Keith story are mind-boggling:

[commenter’s name redacted] Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, and Obama love your way of thinking, it make uis it much easier to install a dictatorship.

I like to break bread with like minded fellows on occasion. When I do, we will meet at an establishment that isn’t so stupid as to put up a sign announcing that “Mass killings are accepted here”. Guns just add to the ambiance.

but gangsters, low, lives who would want to rub” PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE A PEACEFUL MEAL WITH NO DRAMA!!!” would love this location, such an easy target.

Because signs will stop criminals from disobeying the law. Might as well say “criminals welcome, law abiding citizens unarmed”

Guns just add to the “ambiance.” Really? Really?

186 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:05:55pm
187 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:06:52pm

re: #184 FemNaziBitch

Damn, I’m tired of apologists for the Pope.

There is NO Economic Justice with out Full Reproductive Rights.

How hard is this to comprehend.

How can one hold a job and have a satisfying career without the ability to control one’s reproduction.

Being female gives you a distinct advantage when it comes to this understanding.

188 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:10:02pm

re: #184 FemNaziBitch

Damn, I’m tired of apologists for the Pope.

I was just pleased to hear him state that the War Against Contraception and the War Against Gay was not the central message of their faith.

189 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:10:44pm
190 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:11:07pm

re: #188 Sol Berdinowitz

I was just pleased to hear him state that the War Against Contraception and the War Against Gay was not the central message of their faith.

do you really think he said that?

look closer.

191 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:13:49pm

I got a Christmas card from my mom today. Sent to the shop address, but with the PO box’s zip code (which is different). I swear, my family is the most postally challenged I’ve ever heard of. At least she didn’t stuff it full of news clippings and bits of string and put it in a used envelope that burst under the tremendous pressure, only to be bagged by USPS, which attached an apology for the condition it arrived in. That was last year.

OK, the bits of string part was exaggeration.

192 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:13:55pm

re: #190 FemNaziBitch

do you really think he said that?

look closer.

what did he say? I do not expect any major changes in doctrine, at best a change of emphasis

193 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:15:31pm

re: #189 FemNaziBitch

I can’t even…

Oh… My

That’s different, but really, there for the grace of not being a freaking meth head goes I.

RBS

194 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:17:34pm

re: #192 Sol Berdinowitz

what did he say? I do not expect any major changes in doctrine, at best a change of emphasis

Pope is playing the ancient game of “Rhetoric”. Saying nothing and trying to gain followers and moar money.

If I see one more ignorant post about him being a “saint” on social media I may scream.

195 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:20:09pm

re: #194 FemNaziBitch

Pope is playing the ancient game of “Rhetoric”. Saying nothing and trying to gain followers and moar money.

If I see one more ignorant post about him being a “saint” on social media I may scream.

People always invest a lot of hope in a new Pontiff, I just see him as another political figure.

196 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:22:43pm

re: #195 Sol Berdinowitz

People always invest a lot of hope in a new Pontiff, I just see him as another political figure.

Exactly.

Some group cherry-picked a sentence from one of the pubications and it’s on fb, I got a little pissed.

197 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:23:19pm

The niece is 8 months old now.

The brother looks a little overwhelmed.

198 Slap  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:27:21pm

When it comes to cahoots, I much prefer this:

en.wikipedia.org

199 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:30:18pm

re: #186 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

There is something missing from this story. Why did they want to take her child away from her? Or did somebody just offer to hold her baby? Why insist on it? I don’t get it and I don’t understand what the whole uproar is about.

200 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:35:08pm

re: #199 Pie-onist Overlord

There is something missing from this story. Why did they want to take her child away from her? Or did somebody just offer to hold her baby? Why insist on it? I don’t get it and I don’t understand what the whole uproar is about.

Yeah, I don’t get that either.

When we did the same event at the shelter this year, we had another room where the kids could shop for their moms. That way, they wouldn’t be with the mom when she was “shopping” for them and wouldn’t know what their mom was getting for them.

Keeping the kids from the toy room was a rather strict rule, but not babies.
That is insane to me.

Maybe the volunteers weren’t trained well or misunderstood the rules. We had several babies in the toy room.

We had one child who didn’t want to leave her mom and started crying. We went thru several volunteers until we found one that she like enough to leave her mother for. If we couldn’t, then I guess we’d have let the child go with her mother.

201 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:40:20pm

bbl

202 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:41:43pm

re: #200 FemNaziBitch

Yeah, I don’t get that either.

When we did the same event at the shelter this year, we had another room where the kids could shop for their moms. That way, they wouldn’t be with the mom when she was “shopping” for them and wouldn’t know what their mom was getting for them.

Keeping the kids from the toy room was a rather strict rule, but not babies.
That is insane to me.

Maybe the volunteers weren’t trained well or misunderstood the rules. We had several babies in the toy room.

We had one child who didn’t want to leave her mom and started crying. We went thru several volunteers until we found one that she like enough to leave her mother for. If we couldn’t, then I guess we’d have let the child go with her mother.

I don’t understand this “custom” but give me a break, it’s a BABY. It was not explained, and in any case there is NEVER a reason to shame a poor person EVER. SHAMING ANOTHER PERSON WORSE THAN TEH GHEY.

At least that is what Jesus taught, which in turn he was taught.

203 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:57:04pm

re: #199 Pie-onist Overlord

There is something missing from this story. Why did they want to take her child away from her? Or did somebody just offer to hold her baby? Why insist on it? I don’t get it and I don’t understand what the whole uproar is about.

Also sounds like the volunteers simply had no idea. But felt no need to treat her as anything other than a beggar.

204 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:13:24pm

re: #203 Sol Berdinowitz

Also sounds like the volunteers simply had no idea. But felt no need to treat her as anything other than a beggar.

I am so not getting this. Obviously the woman was insulted, and then aired her grievances. But why would the church insist on separating the children from their parents? I can’t imagine any reason except maybe they were putting on some kind of a show with Santa or angels or something that they wanted to be “magical” for the kids, but which adults would think was totally lame.

Whatever, this was a little BABY.

205 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:23:43pm
206 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:30:08pm

re: #205 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

“Extending unemployment just keeps them unemployed!
“But there’s 3 applications to every 1 job out there.”
“There’s jobs out there! If you can’t find any where you live, go to where they are. If they don’t pay enough to live on, then get a second job. Still don’t make enough, then sell some stuff! Make it work!!!”

207 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:33:03pm
208 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:34:05pm

re: #206 Targetpractice

“Extending unemployment just keeps them unemployed!
“But there’s 3 applications to every 1 job out there.”
“There’s jobs out there! If you can’t find any where you live, go to where they are. If they don’t pay enough to live on, then get a second job. Still don’t make enough, then sell some stuff! Make it work!!!”

HURR HURR!!! U SHOULD OF THOUGHTA THAT BEFORE U HAD UR SLUT BABBY & DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!!!!!111 SHOULDA KEPT THAT ASPIRIN BETWEEN UR KNEES U SLUT!!!!!!

209 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:34:18pm
210 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:34:29pm

Wait. What?

And the near immediate clarification, which makes a whole lot more sense:

211 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:35:26pm

re: #189 FemNaziBitch

I can’t even…

Looks like some Heisenberg Blue Sky found its way all the way to Oregon…

212 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:35:48pm

Yeah especially running the gauntlet of screaming, slut-shaming “Christians” and their DEAD FETUS!!!!!!! posters.

213 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:36:02pm

re: #208 Pie-onist Overlord

HURR HURR!!! U SHOULD OF THOUGHTA THAT BEFORE U HAD UR SLUT BABBY & DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!!!!!111 SHOULDA KEPT THAT ASPIRIN BETWEEN UR KNEES U SLUT!!!!!!

“What, you can’t find a job in your field? Well, you shouldn’t known a liberal arts degree ain’t worth nothin’! Oh wait, you’ve a degree in Applied Mathematics? Well, you’re still too dumb to get a real job!!!

214 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:36:26pm

Back for a short while as I feed my headache some coffee

215 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:37:43pm

re: #213 Targetpractice

“What, you can’t find a job in your field? Well, you shouldn’t known a liberal arts degree ain’t worth nothin’! Oh wait, you’ve a degree in Applied Mathematics? Well, you’re still too dumb to get a real job!!!

HURR HURR WALMART IS HIRING!!!! U THINK UR TOO GOOD 4 THEM? U SHOULD CRAWL ON UR KNEES & THANK THEM THEY ARE TEH JRRB CREEYATERZ1!!!!!!

216 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:38:06pm

This is fun but I have to go.

217 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:39:09pm
218 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:40:46pm

re: #217 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Those with one leg shorter than the other stand to the left?

219 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:42:01pm

re: #204 Pie-onist Overlord

I am so not getting this. Obviously the woman was insulted, and then aired her grievances. But why would the church insist on separating the children from their parents? I can’t imagine any reason except maybe they were putting on some kind of a show with Santa or angels or something that they wanted to be “magical” for the kids, but which adults would think was totally lame.

Whatever, this was a little BABY.

Well, I tried to explain that above. It’s difficult for mom to shop for the kids when they are in the room as well. Plus, it’s defeats the purpose of a surprise on Xmas morning. So we offered activies for the kids while their moms were shopping. It was only a big deal with one child who didn’t want to leave her mother.

The idea was for the moms to get a break (Remember, these are Domestic Violence Survivors). They knew the deal when they signed-up to participate. Yet, why anyone would insist on taking a baby is insane to me. The baby can’t participate in any of the kid activies and we had not advertised babysitting. Most didn’t even bring their kids.

220 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:45:06pm

Oh boy. Calfire dot blogspot is linking to Rense and Naturalnews WRT to Fukushima. These people are getting weirder.

221 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:45:36pm
222 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:46:55pm

Now that I’m living in the real woods, I need a good vehicle for the farm. This is for sale and I’m thinking about trying to make a deal on it:

1953 Dodge M-37

Quite a few of these are still in use with volunteer fire departments and the like. Drawbacks are that it is in Virginia and the seller wants 8 grand for it. He says he’s willing to negotiate though and that would offset at least part of the substantial cost of having it transported to Texas. It is completely street legal but cannot be driven on the highway for any substantial distance, since the extreme gearing (5.37/1) gives a max speed of about 55 mph. It will climb over virtually anything, though, including stalled out SUVs.
No air, power steering, super stereo, or other frivolities, but it would put all the crass yuppie/suburbanoid pickups to shame at a fraction of the price.

The real appeal is that my dad was an AF firefighter when I was little and he often drove a truck just like this one. I have a picture of him in his super-silver woven-glass fire suit sitting in one. I’ll post it if I can dig it out (need to scan it anyway).

223 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:48:12pm
224 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:50:42pm

Yikes!

225 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:52:01pm

Links to Rense and Naturalnews —->


#tinfoilhats

226 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:52:16pm

re: #224 FemNaziBitch

Yikes!

[Embedded content]

“Responsible gun ownership.”

227 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:52:22pm

Must read. Quicky.

228 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:52:57pm

re: #218 wrenchwench

Those with one leg shorter than the other stand to the left?

I liked it.

229 Belafon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:54:32pm

re: #217 darthstar

Is that escelator going up or down?

230 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:57:26pm

Woohoo! My 30 in. Apple monitor is back, repaired, and good as new. They replaced the display panel — and now it’s so bright it makes my other 30 in. monitor look like it has a yellowish tint.

231 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:58:03pm

bbl

232 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:59:50pm

re: #227 Gus

Must read. Quicky.

[Embedded content]

Hoo boy.

“I interpreted it as a self-deprecating joke about White guilt and Western privilege — about the sheepish feeling of being physically close to tragedy while remaining safe in an economic and cultural bubble. Others have told me they read it much the same way, even without knowing the author. ‘I think she was more mocking the aloofness white people can have on this issue, not celebrating that aloofness,’ says one friend.”

That sheepish feeling….bah.

233 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:00:33pm

re: #227 Gus

Must read. Quicky.

[Embedded content]

Why quickly?

234 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:01:39pm

re: #233 Stanley Sea

Why quickly?

Quicky as in a quick read. Not quickly. :D

235 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:01:53pm

re: #227 Gus

“Tried and senteneced”? To what? She made a statement on a mass medium read by millions and received responses commensurate with the idiocy and offensiveness of her message.

Had she kept that to a private e-mail or conversation, the outcome would have been different.

But she didn’t…

236 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:02:37pm

re: #234 Gus

Quicky as in a quick read. Not quickly. :D

Do we get an SS d’oh?

237 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:03:11pm

re: #236 b_sharp

Do we get an SS d’oh?

D’oh!

238 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:04:24pm

re: #237 Gus

D’oh!

Not from you.

239 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:06:08pm

re: #232 wrenchwench

Hoo boy.

That sheepish feeling….bah.

Prime example of “the privilege”

240 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:06:24pm
241 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:06:53pm

re: #234 Gus

Quicky as in a quick read. Not quickly. :D

d’oh

242 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:07:31pm

re: #238 b_sharp

Not from you.

I typed it before I read your request for it!

243 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:08:42pm

re: #240 darthstar

[Embedded content]

244 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:08:45pm

re: #241 Stanley Sea

d’oh

Bingo!

245 Kragar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:10:19pm

Just got my new wireless router and modem set up, supposed to be twice as fast as my old one

246 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:11:44pm

re: #245 Kragar

Just got my new wireless router and modem set up, supposed to be twice as fast as my old one

Could you rewrite that post a little slower…the blinding speed with which you posted it almost made it illegible!

247 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:12:42pm

re: #245 Kragar

Just got my new wireless router and modem set up, supposed to be twice as fast as my old one

Did this one come with the free NSA monitoring device?

248 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:14:40pm

re: #238 b_sharp

Not from you.

D’oh!

//

249 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:20:42pm

re: #245 Kragar

Just got my new wireless router and modem set up, supposed to be twice as fast as my old one

Take an 802.11nap?

250 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:21:25pm

Fuck you, Paul Ryan.

Paul Ryan Lectures the Pope

“What I love about the pope is he is triggering the exact kind of dialogue we ought to be having,” Ryan told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. “People need to get involved in their communities to make a difference, to fix problems soul to soul.”

But he couldn’t suppress either his right-wing politics or his supreme capacity for condescension for very long. “The guy is from Argentina, they haven’t had real capitalism in Argentina,” Ryan said (referring to the pope as “the guy” is a nice folksy touch.) “They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don’t have a true free enterprise system.”

251 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:28:14pm
252 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:29:23pm
253 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:30:32pm
254 Ian G.  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:33:02pm

re: #250 darthstar

Fuck you, Paul Ryan.

Paul Ryan Lectures the Pope

Unregulated capitalism cannot fail, it can only be failed.

255 AlexRogan  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:36:21pm

re: #250 darthstar

Fuck you, Paul Ryan.

Paul Ryan Lectures the Pope

Paul Ryan: Holier-Than-Thou Douchebag

256 makeitstop  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:37:29pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

A&E folds on suspending Phil Robertson.

And they say reality shows don’t have script writers…

257 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:38:37pm

Greenwald retweeted that Russia Today post.

More and more he looks like a propagandist for Russian interests. Surely he understands the fucked-up absurdity of RUSSIA TODAY accusing US media of serving the “security apparatus?”

258 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:38:40pm

And just like that, all the talk about how put upon Phil Robertson will now metamorphose into boasting about “beating” GLAAD and how liberals have “lost” this battle, when really there was no battle given.

259 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:38:54pm

I read through the decision.It seems the bottom line is the threat trumps the protections usually afforded in non terror law enforcement. I was encouraged to see the nods to those protections in the full decision. They weighed on the mind of the judge as well they should.

It also seems to me the decision is not at all based on the Governments contention that the defendant lacks standing, but the scope of the threat.

Have I got this right?

260 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:39:48pm

My map is pretty red on the west coast - as it should be.

nyti.ms

261 AlexRogan  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:40:06pm

re: #258 Targetpractice

And just like that, all the talk about how put upon Phil Robertson will now metamorphose into boasting about “beating” GLAAD and how liberals have “lost” this battle, when really there was no battle given.

RWNJs have already been doing their victory lap.

262 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:44:46pm
263 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:45:54pm

re: #259 Political Atheist

I read through the decision.It seems the bottom line is the threat trumps the protections usually afforded in non terror law enforcement. I was encouraged to see the nods to those protections in the full decision. They weighed on the mind of the judge as well they should.

It also seems to me the decision is not at all based on the Governments contention that the defendant lacks standing, but the scope of the threat.

Have I got this right?

i think the main point he makes is that telephone metadata does not fall under the protection of the Fourth Amendment as private information, because you’ve already made it public by allowing the phone company to have it. He’s on solid legal footing there - he’s echoing previous decisions that metadata is not private info, unlike content.

264 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:47:02pm

So. Do you miss Snooki yet?

265 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:47:42pm

re: #258 Targetpractice

And just like that, all the talk about how put upon Phil Robertson will now metamorphose into boasting about “beating” GLAAD and how liberals have “lost” this battle, when really there was no battle given.

Remember, this was a battle against all those who would try to stifle those who spread the Word of the Lord. And a triumph for Free Speech, in the strict Sarah Palian interpretation thereof.

266 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:48:19pm

re: #264 Gus

So. Do you miss Snooki yet?

Who?

267 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:48:49pm

Antisocial media.

268 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:49:31pm

I’ll be very surprised if the Supreme Court doesn’t rule the same way. The metadata issue has been settled law with precedents for quite a while, and these new suits don’t really change anything about that.

269 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:51:21pm
270 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:52:59pm

Official A&E statement:

“After discussions with the Robertson family, as well as consulting with numerous advocacy groups, A&E has decided to resume filming Duck Dynasty later this spring with the entire Robertson family.

Abridged statement:

WE LOVE MONEY!!

271 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:54:36pm

re: #270 Eclectic Cyborg

Official A&E statement:

“After discussions with the Robertson family, as well as consulting with numerous advocacy groups, A&E has decided to resume filming Duck Dynasty later this spring with the entire Robertson family.

Abridged statement:

>WE LOVE MONEY!!

The long and short of the statement is that A&E decided the threat of an actual boycott was greater than a potential one, and so took action in the hopes of pleasing everyone. No statement from GLAAD yet, but I doubt they’re going to get upset about this. Not that that will stop wingnuts from crowing that they “won.”

272 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:54:42pm

re: #266 b_sharp

Who?

You know, the girl that was decent looking until she went on a diet and now looks like a skeleton.

273 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:55:45pm

re: #271 Targetpractice

I wonder if this sets any kind of precedent as far as “stupid shit celebrities can get away with saying”. His comments on blacks were pretty offensive.

274 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:55:51pm

re: #272 Eclectic Cyborg

You know, the girl that was decent looking until she went on a diet and now looks like a skeleton.

It’s OK, I gained a pound back.

/

275 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:56:11pm

re: #272 Eclectic Cyborg

You know, the girl that was decent looking until she went on a diet and now looks like a skeleton.

Angelina Jolie?

276 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:56:23pm

re: #271 Targetpractice

The long and short of the statement is that A&E decided the threat of an actual boycott was greater than a potential one, and so took action in the hopes of pleasing everyone. No statement from GLAAD yet, but I doubt they’re going to get upset about this. Not that that will stop wingnuts from crowing that they “won.”

A&E has won, this show has had millions of dollars’ worth of free publicity, the handful of people it has put off are more than offset by the throngs of devoted new viewers who want to hear the Word of God as spoken through his Prophet.

277 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:56:37pm

re: #274 wrenchwench

It’s OK, I gained a pound back.

/

Joking aside you really should look at the pictures. IMO she was a ton more attractive BEFORE she lost the weight.

Give me curvy girls over stick girls any day.

278 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:57:20pm

279 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:58:25pm
280 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:58:40pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

i think the main point he makes is that telephone metadata does not fall under the protection of the Fourth Amendment as private information, because you’ve already made it public by allowing the phone company to have it. He’s on solid legal footing there - he’s echoing previous decisions that metadata is not private info, unlike content.

That and anti terror uses only IIRC, a crucial limit. I’d hate to see this used in the war on drugs. My only qualm with his thinking is how there is no evidence there has been more than trivial or accidental violations. That argument amounts to “so far so good”. That’s the weakest link in his otherwise strong argument. Between the lines he seems to say there is no other way to get this done. So much is secret it’s hard to gauge the accuracy of that idea.

281 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:58:54pm
282 darthstar  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:00:31pm
283 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:03:52pm

re: #282 darthstar

Dang Darthstar, that might be the tweet of the week.

284 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:04:03pm

In the end, I never really took the idea of A&E’s “suspension” seriously. It was a blatant publicity stunt, whether planned or stumbled into, and now they’ll come out of it with fat pockets. I never watched the show, had no intention of starting before this whole mess, and now have even less reason to tune in. A&E hasn’t lost my business, because it never had it in the first place.

285 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:05:05pm

re: #277 Eclectic Cyborg

Joking aside you really should look at the pictures. IMO she was a ton more attractive BEFORE she lost the weight.

Give me curvy girls over stick girls any day.

Not looking, don’t care.

Women should weigh what they want to weigh, for their own reasons, not because of what onlookers think.

286 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:05:16pm

Today’s News:

Edward Snowden - white dude.
Glenn Greenwald - white dude.
Barton Gellman - white dude.
Phil Robertson - white dude.
Duck Dynasty - white dudes.

287 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:05:51pm

re: #285 wrenchwench

Not looking, don’t care.

Women should weigh what they want to weigh, for their own reasons, not because of what onlookers think.

Understood, but don’t you think its unfortunate that some women maintain a low unhealthy weight because they feel that’s what society wants?

288 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:06:23pm

re: #286 Gus

Today’s News:

Edward Snowden - white dude.
Glenn Greenwald - white dude.
Barton Gellman - white dude.
Phil Robertson - white dude.
Duck Dynasty - white dudes.

I wonder if anyone has ever conducted a study on how homogenized American news coverage is.

289 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:06:44pm
290 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:07:21pm

re: #287 Eclectic Cyborg

Understood, but don’t you think its unfortunate that some women maintain a low unhealthy weight because they feel that’s what society wants?

Absolutely. But you can’t tell by looking which women those are.

291 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:09:07pm

re: #290 wrenchwench

Absolutely. But you can’t tell by looking which women those are.

Point taken.

292 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:10:35pm

re: #288 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder if anyone has ever conducted a study on how homogenized American news coverage is.

Patrice O’Neal had a bit about wanting to keep a white baby with him so authorities would search in case he went missing.

293 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:13:00pm
294 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:14:57pm

re: #287 Eclectic Cyborg

Understood, but don’t you think its unfortunate that some women maintain a low unhealthy weight because they feel that’s what society wants?

One very real problem in advertising is the practice of not just digitally touching up an image but completely reshaping the body, often to what would be anatomically impossible.

RBS
Posting mobile

295 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:15:10pm

re: #286 Gus

Today’s News:

Edward Snowden - white dude.
Glenn Greenwald - white dude.
Barton Gellman - white dude.
Phil Robertson - white dude.
Duck Dynasty - white dudes.

Depends on where you get your news. It’s actually a fascinating news day with developments in Beirut, Thailand, Sudan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, Iran, Russia, etc. The world is full of interesting developments.

296 BeenHereAwhile  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:16:02pm

re: #222 Shiplord Kirel

Now that I’m living in the real woods, I need a good vehicle for the farm. This is for sale and I’m thinking about trying to make a deal on it:

1953 Dodge M-37
[Embedded image]

Quite a few of these are still in use with volunteer fire departments and the like. Drawbacks are that it is in Virginia and the seller wants 8 grand for it. He says he’s willing to negotiate though and that would offset at least part of the substantial cost of having it transported to Texas. It is completely street legal but cannot be driven on the highway for any substantial distance, since the extreme gearing (5.37/1) gives a max speed of about 55 mph. It will climb over virtually anything, though, including stalled out SUVs.
No air, power steering, super stereo, or other frivolities, but it would put all the crass yuppie/suburbanoid pickups to shame at a fraction of the price.

The real appeal is that my dad was an AF firefighter when I was little and he often drove a truck just like this one. I have a picture of him in his super-silver woven-glass fire suit sitting in one. I’ll post it if I can dig it out (need to scan it anyway).

IF you can agree on the price, I’d buy it. As long as you don’t beat it up, it will always be worth close to what you paid for it. And if you’re into mechanical sounds, the gears in the transmission and transfer case will produce “good old timey truck sounds.”

Since it has a geared transfer case, you could bolt a tow bar to the front bumper and flat tow it with the transfer case in neutral; and using magnetic axillary tail lights. Something like a Suburban or Expedition would suffice as a tow vehicle. You’d be suprised how stable flat towing a vehicle is. I’d recommend temporarily placing a helper to armstrong steer it while you’re going in and out of gas stations and the like.

Towed a 1200 Internation 4X4 Crew Cab Air Force Crash truck from Atlanta to West Palm Beach that way. My tow vehicle was a Scout II.

297 A Mom Anon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:17:14pm

re: #281 darthstar

Gah. Duck Boy was never fired, never missed an episode of filming (which to my understanding had stopped due to salary negotiations before Homophobe Commander ran his mouth to GQ), was never once not on the fucking TV. So how can he be “back” when he never damned went anywhere in the first place? Our. Media. Sucks. That stupid show has been on a pretty much 24/7 solid loop on A&E for the better part of a month now. Shit, if this is being persecuted, where the hell do I sign up? I’ll happily play the adopted heathen/ slightly overpaid intern on VB’s new reality show- Pie-onist Overlord:The Bakening.

I still am having trouble processing losing a “friend” over this freaking STUPID show. Fucking crap.

298 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:18:25pm

Moving.

299 ObserverArt  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:19:32pm

re: #295 Killgore Trout

Depends on where you get your news. It’s actually a fascinating news day with developments in Beirut, Thailand, Sudan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, Iran, Russia, etc. The world is full of interesting developments.

I think there is a key word there in your post. Ah yes, world. Kinda changes things don’t you think?

300 Gus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:21:44pm
301 Flounder  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:22:46pm

Well, I had a problem with Chrome and this website and I fixed it all by myself, multiple updings to everyone!!!
New antivirus software, and the dummy banging on the keys are to blame.

302 A Mom Anon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:23:37pm

re: #298 Justanotherhuman

He’s not so young that lynching still wasn’t a fairly regular occurrence in that part of the world too, at the very least there’s not a chance he didn’t hear about that shit growing up and may have witnessed it a time or two himself. Like a black guy was EVER going to complain to Duck Boy about anything ever in that fucking environment. Please.

303 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:29:04pm

re: #294 RealityBasedSteve

One very real problem in advertising is the practice of not just digitally touching up an image but completely reshaping the body, often to what would be anatomically impossible.

RBS
Posting mobile

30 Fashion Model Photoshop Fails

304 BeenHereAwhile  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:29:50pm

re: #250 darthstar

Fuck you, Paul Ryan.

“But he couldn’t suppress either his right-wing politics or his supreme capacity for condescension for very long. “The guy is from Argentina, they haven’t had real capitalism in Argentina,” Ryan said (referring to the pope as “the guy” is a nice folksy touch.) “They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don’t have a true free enterprise system.”

Argentina’s government has also been known to “disappear” an estimated 30,000 people, seize babies from their mothers, and drop some folk they didn’t like at altitude from helicopters out to sea.

Yea, life has always been easy in Argentina.

305 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:30:34pm

re: #298 Justanotherhuman

Moving.

I was moving too, until I sat in my chair and stopped.

I feel much better now.

306 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:31:05pm

re: #301 Flounder

Well, I had a problem with Chrome and this website and I fixed it all by myself, multiple updings to everyone!!!
New antivirus software, and the dummy banging on the keys are to blame.

Avast?

307 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:34:50pm

re: #302 A Mom Anon

He’s not so young that lynching still wasn’t a fairly regular occurrence in that part of the world too, at the very least there’s not a chance he didn’t hear about that shit growing up and may have witnessed it a time or two himself. Like a black guy was EVER going to complain to Duck Boy about anything ever in that fucking environment. Please.

All seemed from at least a generation before his time, but the message would linger:

Lynchings in the Monroe Area: (From Tuskegee University Records) December 1, 1882, Unknown Negro, Man Stealing; July 9, 1883, Henderson Lee, charged with murder; April 27, 1884, Mr. Mulligan (white man), charged with murder; February 18, 1886, George Robinson, Self defense ;April 19, 1889, Unnamed Negro man, rape; May 18, 1889, Unnamed Negro Man, burglary (Columbia); October 20, 1890, John Russ (White man), murder (Columbia); October 30, 1890, Negro named Showden, threatening language; May 22, 1892, Unnamed Negro Man, murder; December 28, 1892, Tillman Green, attempted assault April 23, 1894, Thomas Claxton, Murder (Tallulah) ;April 23, 1894, David Hawkins, Murder (Tallulah); April 27, 1894, Thell Claston, Murder (Tallulah); April 27, 1894, Scott Harvey, Murder (Tallulah) April 27, 1894, Camp Claxton, Murder (Tallulah); June 4, 1894, Thomas Underwood, Murder; June 14, 1894, J.H. Day, Suspected arson; January 10, 1896, A.L. Smart, murder; July 13, 1896, Courtney Rendrick, murder; September 16, 1896; James McCauley, rape; October 2, 1897, Wash Furran, rape; May 29, 1906, R. T. Rogers, murder (Tallulah); August 26, 1906, Alfred Shaufilet, murder; March 15, 1907, Flint Williams, murder; March 15, 1907, Henry Gardner, murder ;August 24, 1909, William S. Wade, murderous assault; August 25, 1910, Laura Porter, keeping a house of disrepute; October 22, 1913, Warren Eaton, murder; August 5, 1914, Preston Griffin, murder; August 7, 1914, Charles Hall, murder; August 8, 1914, Louis Pruitt, murder; August 8, 1914, Dan Johnson, murder; March 16, 1918, John Richard (lynched but released before death), robbery and rape;March 16, 1918, George McNeal, robbery and rape; April 22, 1918, Clyde Williams, assault with intent to murder; January 29, 1919, Thompson Smith, Murder;August 9, 1919, Unnamed Negro man, suspected murder.

monroefreepress.com

308 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:39:31pm

re: #307 Decatur Deb

He’s definitely old enough for the time of the Freedom Riders.

309 Flounder  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 6:35:36pm

re: #275 b_sharp

Yes, works for me and its free.


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