Senator Ted Cruz Says He No Longer Believes in States’ Rights

Kragar
Wingnuts • Views: 36,795

Despite having backed a state’s right to ignore Federal laws in the past, Ted Cruz has now decided to support a strong Federal government enforcing its rules on the States.

Voters in Colorado and Washington state voted to legalize the recreational use of marijuana in 2013, but federal law still prohibits the use of the drug. The Department of Justice announced in August of 2013 that it would not target for arrest adults who used marijuana in compliance with state laws.

Cruz said the Obama administration should continue imprisoning people for using marijuana until federal law is changed.

“You can go to Congress, you can get a conversation, you could get Democrats and Republicans who would say, ‘We ought to change our drug policy in some way,’ and you could have a real conversation, you could have hearings, you could look at the problem, you could discuss commonsense changes that maybe should happen or shouldn’t happen. This president didn’t do that. He just said, ‘The laws say one thing’ — and mind you these are criminal laws, these are laws that say if you do ‘X, Y, and Z’ you will go to prison. The president announced, ‘No, you won’t.’”

I expect Senator Cruz will be telling his supporters about the need for States to stop fighting the Federal government on such topics as same sex marriage, gun control and a woman’s right to choose next.

More: Senator Ted Cruz Attacks Obama for Not Locking Up Marijuana Users in Colorado

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447 comments
1 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 3:00:07pm

Same old nonsense. The state’s rights fools have never been consistent, and this goes all the way back to before the civil war.

2 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 3:17:58pm

Let’s stack this atop the cairn of “state’s rights, but not really” hypocrisies.

It’ll go nicely atop the “it’s for states to define gay marriage, unless Congress can manage to amend the Constitution to define marriage, in which case it’s totally a federal level issue.”

3 jvic  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 3:45:18pm
“You can go to Congress, you can get a conversation, you could get Democrats and Republicans who would say, ‘We ought to change our drug policy in some way,’ and you could have a real conversation, you could have hearings, you could look at the problem, you could discuss commonsense changes that maybe should happen or shouldn’t happen…

So, Senator Cruz, what have you done to get that “real conversation” going in Congress, in the media, or on the policy circuit?

4 ausador  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 4:41:36pm
“You can go to Congress, you can get a conversation, you could get Democrats and Republicans who would say, ‘We ought to change our drug policy in some way,’ and you could have a real conversation, you could have hearings, you could look at the problem, you could discuss commonsense changes that maybe should happen or shouldn’t happen…”

Yeah right, because marijuana use in this country just started last November and no one has ever gotten a chance to express their views about it before now?

That “conversation” Cruz is alluding to has been going on for at least 40 years now and has always ended with the side favoring more criminalization and stiffer penalties ascendent. Our prisons are so full of people prosecuted for drug use and possession infractions that violent offenders routinely end up being released early to make room for more.

The “War On Drugs” has failed, it failed a long time ago, only the stuffed shirts in Washington can’t or wont acknowledge it.

Cruz doesn’t want a change in drug policy, he simply wants to continue the nonsensical (and profitable to some) status quo. While also of course publicly condemning the current administration because it does not see any legitimate point in contravening state laws to prosecute even more marijuana users.

5 nines09  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 4:44:22pm

Ted wants his cake and eat it too. It’s all the right wing rage. For it because liberty and freedom and rights and puppies it suits them and against it when it doesn’t. Just another walk into the Tea Brained.

6 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 4:44:46pm

Oh so states rights is bad Ted when people want to smoke pot but it’s great when you want to deny people health care. I see how ti goes you pathetic asshole.

7 sauceruney  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 4:55:21pm

I think Cruz needs to make a spreadsheet in Excel so he can see where his positions on subjects don’t reconcile with each other.

8 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 4:56:24pm

re: #7 sauceruney

I think Cruz needs to make a spreadsheet in Excel so he can see where his positions on subjects don’t reconcile with each other.

Does Excel have support for imaginary numbers? Those would seem to be needed for this exercise…

9 sauceruney  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:21:10pm

re: #8 EPR-radar

I was going to suggest mind-mapping software, but… Yeah.

10 nines09  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:41:48pm

Ted Cruz will have a massive cognitive dissonance moment or two thousand in a few years. Unless he’s just a pathological liar. I’d go with #2.

11 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:36:24pm

I am glad Cruz is doing this though. It really shows you how hypocritical conservatives like him really are when it comes to individual rights and states rights. I hate to “praise” Ron Paul here but at least he actually believes the states rights crap he spews. Cruz is just a poser.

12 freetoken  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:39:15pm

re: #10 nines09

It depends - if Ted suffers from Newt-syndrome, then don’t expect any public conscience to emerge.

13 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:39:16pm

Every time some GOP nutter starts babbling about “states’ rights” I’m reminded of the fact that the whole concept has its roots in slavery. It’s always been about the state’s supposed right to decide whether or not owning another human being was legal. That’s it.

14 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:40:20pm

obligatory Serling

15 Kragar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:41:08pm
16 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:41:25pm

Deep thinking from a state’s rights hypocrite of an earlier era (Alexander Stephens, VP CSA): (link teachingamericanhistory.org)

…

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

….

This kind of ‘reasoning’ is in fact identical to what today’s wingnuts practice.

(edited to add link and decrease quote length)

17 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:41:36pm

re: #13 Lidane

Every time some GOP nutter starts babbling about “states’ rights” I’m reminded of the fact that the whole concept has its roots in slavery. It’s always been about the state’s supposed right to decide whether or not owning another human being was legal. That’s it.

Yep slavery and later segregation. And yet these fools want to still claim because Lincoln was in the same party it means he would agree with them.

18 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:42:18pm

Oh, Ted, say it isn’t so. You’re going with bipolar disorder as your political orientation?

It’s states rights except when you don’t like the outcome. Then, it’s all about pushing for a federal response to trump the state view.

Outstanding.

19 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:42:29pm

re: #15 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Says the man who made a whole agenda based documentary about the President, what was it about glass houses D’Sousa? I hope you took out a mortgage.

20 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:43:38pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Oh, Ted, say it isn’t so. You’re going with bipolar disorder as your political orientation?

It’s states rights except when you don’t like the outcome. Then, it’s all about pushing for a federal response to trump the state view.

Outstanding.

It’s kind of like how they are on “judicial activists.” They love judicial activism when judges rule that it’s okay to tell gay couples they can’t get equality under the law or that it’s somehow constitutional to have laws that favor Christianity over other religions but the second a judge says “No, we have separation of church and state” JUDICIAL ACTIVISM, TYRANTS IN ROBES!

21 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:43:42pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Oh, Ted, say it isn’t so. You’re going with bipolar disorder as your political orientation?

It’s states rights except when you don’t like the outcome. Then, it’s all about pushing for a federal response to trump the state view.

Outstanding.

One gets an image of the Strawman from The Wizard of Oz.

22 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:44:02pm

re: #17 HappyWarrior

Yep slavery and later segregation. And yet these fools want to still claim because Lincoln was in the same party it means he would agree with them.

Lincoln was willing to go to war to argue against their ideas. Hell, Jackson was willing to hang anyone who believed in nullification from the nearest tree as a traitor if their idiocy led to bloodshed.

“States’ rights” is nothing but an argument in favor of institutionalized bigotry. Period.

23 The War TARDIS  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:44:57pm

re: #22 Lidane

Though Jackson isn’t a great example here, considering his genocide via the Trail of Tears.

24 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:44:59pm

Meanwhile, Rachel Maddow is still digging and she’s unearthed some more interesting facts.

25 Iwouldprefernotto  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:45:08pm

Please proceed.

26 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:46:14pm

re: #15 Kragar

It would have been a minor story if it wasn’t affecting the nation’s busiest bridge and the world’s busiest bridge by vehicle traffic. Limiting access by any stretch is a big deal.

When the Port Authority shuts lanes, for any length of time, it issues alerts and warnings. It offers up alternative routes. Heck, even when there were emergency construction lane closures, it produced twitters, emails, and other warnings about bridge traffic and alerts.

Here? Nothing. Nothing but silence and static from top officials.

Let them eat static is essentially what Wildstein and Baroni offered to NJ officials wondering why the lane change brought Fort Lee to a standstill during the first week of school, the High Holy Days, and the days leading up to the anniversary of 9/11.

27 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:46:23pm

re: #23 The War TARDIS

Though Jackson isn’t a great example here, considering his genocide via the Trail of Tears.

The point is, even he thought that states’ rights and nullification were bullshit.

28 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:46:32pm

Ted. It’s a fucking plant.

29 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:46:49pm

re: #23 The War TARDIS

Though Jackson isn’t a great example here, considering his genocide via the Trail of Tears.

Right but I guess the point here is that Jackson who was beloved by many of those same later secessionists had a big problem with nullification and states rights above all types.

30 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:47:09pm

re: #21 thedopefishlives

Naw, because the Strawman had a brain. And a heart.

I doubt Cruz has either. He’s more like Oz - smoke and mirrors signifying not a whole lot more than a puffing gasbag.

31 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:47:38pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Rachel Maddow is still digging and she’s unearthed some more interesting facts.

CNN had some breaking news banner this afternoon that there actually was a traffic study. But that headline wasn’t up for very long.

32 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:47:53pm

re: #27 Lidane

The point is, even he thought that states’ rights and nullification were bullshit.

Yep and it’s a great point too since you’re showing that the founding fathers of both political parties had a big problem with secession. Jackson in many ways is considered the father of the Democratic Party while Lincoln is the same with the Republicans.

33 The War TARDIS  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:48:10pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

She’s like those hogs that are used to root out truffles. (As in rooting around to find things.)

She’s finding lots of truffle-y goodness.

34 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:48:41pm

re: #30 lawhawk

Naw, because the Strawman had a brain. And a heart.

I doubt Cruz has either. He’s more like Oz - smoke and mirrors signifying not a whole lot more than a puffing gasbag.

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

35 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:48:57pm

re: #31 GlutenFreeJesus

CNN had some breaking news banner this afternoon that there actually was a traffic study.

I heard it was a 4-page .pdf document. Impressive!

36 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:51:22pm
An internal Port Authority email released Friday suggested that a Wall Street Journal reporter began asking questions about the George Washington Bridge scandal after editors from the newspaper got caught in the multi-day traffic jam caused by the lane closures.
talkingpointsmemo.com

This probably fits under the
“Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel” heading.

37 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:52:18pm

Night Lizards. The derp level from reposted derp from external sites is just getting too deep for me.

I leave you with this.

Youtube Video

Sleep well Lizards.

May the Deity of your choice smile dow upon you and yours

*Edit*
Should have made that clear in my original post. Bolded is mine.

38 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:52:34pm

re: #26 lawhawk

The thing that kills me about the whole stupid affair is that it’s so embarrassingly goddamned petty. I mean, what the fuck would these idiots do with their little passive-aggressive high school vendettas if they had the power of the FBI at their disposal? The NSA that everyone’s currently shitting themselves inside out in a rush to be outraged about? Hell, the entire GOP wanted to set the world on fire because they thought it looked like the IRS gave some extra scrutiny to obvious political activism organizations that applied for tax-exempt status. Meanwhile, here’s a guy who’s supposed to be A New Hope for the GOP, and “Bob” only knows what kind of shit his office would pull if they held the remote control to the IRS.

39 The War TARDIS  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:52:53pm

re: #27 Lidane

Really wish we could replace him on the $20.

Say, with TR or FDR.

40 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:53:01pm

States rights also comes from a time when the country spanned in size from Vermont to Georgia too. I’ve seen states righters argue “Oh if you don’t like the law, you can just move.” Moving ain’t that simple and frankly there are some things that shouldn’t be up to a state to decde. I think Hugh Hefner made the point when Playboy got some heat for publishing a dystopian short story about a majority homosexual society discriminating against minority heterosexuals that if discrimination against heterosexuals was wrong in that universe then discriminating against homosexuals in ours is wrong too. I wonder how “conservatives” who talk about how marriage needs to be protected would feel if Christians were the minority and had their rights limited in this country and no living in a society where gays have equality doesn’t count as that despite what Bryan Fischer and those like him want to cry.

41 GeneJockey  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:53:29pm

re: #15 Kragar

In case you haven’t figured it out, this Chris Christie scandal is a minor story, magnified for political reasons by the New York Times

The New York Times is the hometown newspaper of what major city, across what river from which state, which you can reach by crossing which bridge?

That is, unless someone in Fort Lee has pissed off Chris Christie.

42 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 6:54:02pm

re: #16 EPR-radar

Try to keep in mind Charles’ reminder about citing sources and not overdoing the cutting and pasting.

43 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:02:30pm

From the Record:

Bill Baroni documents

Documents produced by Bill Baroni, the former deputy executive director of the Port Authority and Christie’s top appointee who resigned in December, show that top Port Authority officials were studying the impacts of closing some of the Fort Lee access lanes as soon as the end of August, and that several top officials at the agency didn’t like the idea. The e-mails also indicate that officials in the New Jersey side of the agency were convinced that New York appointee Pat Foye was leaking documents to the media about the study in a political power play.

At one point Commissioner David Samson, a New Jersey appointee, wrote: “this is yet another example of a story, we’ve seen it before, where he distances himself from an issue in the press and rides in on a white horse to save the day (if you need prior examples I will provide)—in this case, he’s playing in traffic, made a big mistake. D.”

Baroni also produced a Powerpoint report, dated Sept. 12, assessing the benefits of the reallocation of toll lanes. The report says that cars going through the mainline toll lanes saved “966 vehicle hours of reduced delay.” But the Fort Lee cars experienced “an additional 2,800 vehicle hours of delay.” “Even if queues are half those estimated, the additional delay would still far exceed the savings of mainline traffic,” it says. “Conclusions TBD”

…

Darcy Licorish documents

The Port Authority police union president, Paul Nunziato, did not have any documents responsive to the subpoena.

Darcy Licorish, of the Port Authority police department, produced several e-mails dated between Sept. 6, the first day Licorish was informed that the lanes were to be closed on Sept. 9, and Sept. 13, the day the lanes were reopened.

The e-mails indicate that Licorish and other officials at the bridge were receiving very little information about the lane closings, but were following orders issued by superiors at the Port Authority, including David Wildstein.

None of these e-mails refers to a traffic study.

- See more at: northjersey.com

So, Baroni and/or Samson was either feuding or upset over how Foye was operating and reacting to the events as they unfolded. That’s not particularly surprising since there’s a lot of this kind of tension at the agency where you’ve got disparate needs/wants by the representatives of both states. Each serves a different master, and Foye is a recent replacement by Cuomo - taking over for Christoper Ward.

If anything, these particular emails show the dysfunction at the agency separate and distinct from the lane closures. It can help explain how and why the agency operates the way it does, including the mess at the WTC - the transit hub cost overruns, the tremendous costs for the WTC construction, etc.

44 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:03:40pm

About 7% of U.S. residents admit to being current marijuana smokers. That’s probably a conservative estimate.

Colorado had 5,188,000 people (could be more now, because, y’know, January 1, 2014).

5,188,000 x .07 = 363,160.

According to U.S. Bureau of Justice statistics, there were 2,266,800 people incarcerated in federal and state prisons as of 2011.

So, apparently Senator Cruz would increase the prison population by about 16% from just one state.

I smoked pot on and off for 30 years, and I don’t think at my dopiest I ever suggested anything that batshit insane.

45 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:05:56pm

re: #44 BongCrodny

About 7% of U.S. residents admit to being current marijuana smokers. That’s probably a conservative estimate.

Colorado had 5,188,000 people (could be more now, because, y’know, January 1, 2014).

5,188,000 x .07 = 363,160.

According to U.S. Bureau of Justice statistics, there were 2,266,800 people incarcerated in federal and state prisons as of 2011.

So, apparently Senator Cruz would increase the prison population by about 16% from just one state.

I smoked pot on and off for 30 years, and I don’t think at my dopiest I ever suggested anything that batshit insane.

Big government conservatives. I really wish the Dems would take this issue and others like it and point how hypocritical conservative Republicans are on this issue especially given the fact that they take money from alcohol and tobacco lobbyists. Plus it’s looking like a winning issue.

46 missliberties  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:07:34pm

re: #13 Lidane

Every time some GOP nutter starts babbling about “states’ rights” I’m reminded of the fact that the whole concept has its roots in slavery. It’s always been about the state’s supposed right to decide whether or not owning another human being was legal. That’s it.

They didn’t consider them humans. They considered them work animals and it was okay for their kids to play with the ‘pets’.

The states rights issue is exactly about being able to keep your ‘property’ so you can have the freedom to make money. But those snooty east coasters, etc. etc. It’s amazing how much of this new tea party talk is just recycled from the 1850’s.

A true and pure teabagger does not view Lincoln as any kind of hero.

47 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:09:21pm

re: #46 missliberties

They didn’t consider them humans. They considered them work animals and it was okay for their kids to play with the ‘pets’.

The states rights issue is exactly about being able to keep your ‘property’ so you can have the freedom to make money. But those snooty east coasters, etc. etc. It’s amazing how much of this new tea party talk is just recycled from the 1850’s.

A true and pure teabagger does not view Lincoln as any kind of hero.

Soon enough it will be pointless to talk about neo-Confederates in the US right wing because Confederates will be the more accurate term.

48 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:09:33pm

I’m lukewarm about legalizing marijuana. Some things I would like to know is where are the people selling the pot getting it? Are they still buying it from the same traffickers they used to? Is it still getting smuggled across the border, because I don’t think CO has the kind of climate to support much production. If it is still being smuggled, do the consumers feel any complicity in the murders committed by drug traffickers?

49 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:09:59pm
Baroni also produced a Powerpoint report, dated Sept. 12, assessing the benefits of the reallocation of toll lanes. The report says that cars going through the mainline toll lanes saved “966 vehicle hours of reduced delay.” But the Fort Lee cars experienced “an additional 2,800 vehicle hours of delay.” “Even if queues are half those estimated, the additional delay would still far exceed the savings of mainline traffic,” it says. “Conclusions TBD”

How long could it take to come to a conclusion?

50 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:11:09pm

re: #49 jaunte

How long could it take to come to a conclusion?

I would have thought “Even if queues are half those estimated, the additional delay would still far exceed the savings of mainline traffic” was the conclusion.

51 Mattand  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:16:18pm

From the NY Times article describing Christie’s mea culpa pilgrimage to Fort Lee:

But Dominick Lamanna, 91, applauded Mr. Christie’s performance on Thursday. “I think he’s handling it well,” he said.

“If he ran as an independent, I’d vote for him over Clinton,” Mr. Lamanna said, alluding to the possibility that Mr. Christie and Hillary Rodham Clinton would be the major party candidates for president in 2016.

That sound you hear is me banging my head on my desk until it splinters.

“Sure, his people completely fucked up my town and endangered lives as a petty political vendetta. That’s why Christie should be president!”

Concentrated, unrefined stupidity.

52 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:19:38pm

re: #51 Mattand

From the NY Times article describing Christie’s mea culpa pilgrimage to Fort Lee:

That sound you hear is banging my head on my desk until it splinters.

“Sure, his people completely fucked up my town and endangered lives as a petty political vendetta. That’s why Christie should president.”

Concentrated, unrefined stupidity.

I like the silly if he ran as an independent hypothetical. Christie’s not going to run as an independent even if he gets beaten by some wackjob. He still cheerled for Mitt despite Mitt belittling federal disaster aid. I do agree with your head on the desk though. Reading the quotes of some voters is like reading the people in the Onion commenting on current events except their comments make more sense sometimes.

53 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:22:43pm

From Kevin Drum:

Bridget Anne Kelly: “Time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee.”

David Wildstein: “Got it.”

Does this exchange sound like it’s between two people who are suggesting a new and novel way to screw their political opponents, or between two people who have clearly done this before?

motherjones.com

54 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:22:47pm

re: #48 SteveMcGazi

I’m lukewarm about legalizing marijuana…. If it is still being smuggled, do the consumers feel any complicity in the murders committed by drug traffickers?

There is a different point of view, that the murders committed by the drug traffickers are a consequence of making marijuana illegal in the first place. Exactly like the alcohol-related murders during the Prohibition of alcohol.

There is wider and wider recognition that the consequences of the War on Drugs include organized crime, increased violence, and hundreds of thousands of non-violent Americans incarcerated on drug offenses. More and more, drug prohibition is understood to be an Epic Fail, and I believe its time is just about done.

55 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:23:59pm

re: #54 Ming

There is a different point of view, that the murders committed by the drug traffickers are a consequence of making marijuana illegal in the first place. Exactly like the alcohol-related murders during the Prohibition of alcohol.

There is wider and wider recognition that the consequences of the War on Drugs include organized crime, increased violence, and hundreds of thousands of non-violent Americans incarcerated on drug offenses. More and more, drug prohibition is understood to be an Epic Fail, and I believe its time is just about done.

So in other words, fuck ‘em.

56 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:25:35pm

re: #48 SteveMcGazi

The surest way to punish them is to hit them in the wallet.

57 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:26:25pm

re: #53 jaunte

From Kevin Drum:

The move had to be discussed because Wildstein knew exactly what she meant. There was no “What the hell are you talking about?” Combine that with the timing of the email and there was clearly a plan.

58 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:26:44pm

Speaking of drug prohibition, the dealers hate legalization- there’s a reason for that. I think if you legalize it, you hit the cartels where it hurts and allow the police to focus on more serious crimes.

59 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:27:15pm

re: #53 jaunte

From Kevin Drum:

But it’s no big deal because BENGHAZI.

60 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:29:36pm

From the Reuters article

“Included in these documents is a reference to what appears to be a meeting between Port Authority Chairman David Samson and the governor one week before Bridget Kelly issued the order to cause ‘traffic problems’ in Fort Lee,” Wisniewski said in a statement.

“By submitting these documents, Mr. Wildstein is telling us they are related to the lane closures in some way. The question that demands answering is - how?”

So Wildstein was ordered to turn over all documents concerning the lane closures and he includes this one about the meeting between the Governor and Samson…interesting.

61 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:29:58pm

re: #56 jaunte

The surest way to punish them is to hit them in the wallet.

But what makes you think they will stop selling. In fact, they’ll probably get richer than before, since they won’t have to worry as much about enforcement if legalization continues to spread. What makes you think that organized crime is going to welcome competition? Sure, you might start a garden and nobody else would care, but what if you started a farm? Do you really think that some gangsters are going to suck their thumbs when you take your harvest to market?

62 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:33:09pm

re: #61 SteveMcGazi

Some of that may happen, but maintaining the current War on Drugs assures that we’re selecting for the most ruthless competitors. Based on our Prohibition experience, opening up the market will reduce the level of violence.

63 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:33:24pm

re: #61 SteveMcGazi

But what makes you think they will stop selling. In fact, they’ll probably get richer than before, since they won’t have to worry as much about enforcement if legalization continues to spread. What makes you think that organized crime is going to welcome competition? Sure, you might start a garden and nobody else would care, but what if you started a farm? Do you really think that some gangsters are going to suck their thumbs when you take your harvest to market?

The same observation could have been made at the end of Prohibition —- that the mob would keep control over the sale/distribution of alcohol even after it was made legal.

It doesn’t seem to have turned out that way.

64 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:39:44pm

Good thing that we learned the lesson of the 1930’s: prohibition of ALCOHOL doesn’t work.
////

I’m being a bit strident, and I realize marijuana can be harmful, and its legalization has downsides. But anyone who cares about America really should take time to appreciate the staggering negative consequences of decade after decade of marijuana prohibition. More and more people are acknowledging that the War on Drugs has been a total failure, a total loser.

65 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:40:58pm

re: #63 EPR-radar

The same observation could have been made at the end of Prohibition —- that the mob would keep control over the sale/distribution of alcohol even after it was made legal.

It doesn’t seem to have turned out that way.

I think you could argue that organized criminals got richer after prohibition ended. Remember alcoholic beverages weren’t illegal during Prohibition, just the trafficking. From my admittedly inadequate knowledge of history, I do think that organized crime continued growing without any disruption from the end of Prohibition. In fact, it seemed to blossom, but I will allow that other factors may be involved. Point is, ending Prohibition did NOT curtail the gangsters.

66 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:43:48pm

BTW I’m not saying that we should keep fighting the war on drugs. I am saying that when people buy drugs, there is a good chance that they are financing murder. You may not want to think of it that way, but you can’t wish that blood of your hands. So unless your damn sure your shit was local, you may as well go buy some blood diamonds and give them to your honey.

67 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:44:15pm

re: #65 SteveMcGazi

I think you could argue that organized criminals got richer after prohibition ended. Remember alcoholic beverages weren’t illegal during Prohibition, just the trafficking. From my admittedly inadequate knowledge of history, I do think that organized crime continued growing without any disruption from the end of Prohibition. In fact, it seemed to blossom, but I will allow that other factors may be involved. Point is, ending Prohibition did NOT curtail the gangsters.

I agree that ending Prohibition did not end the gangsters, but I do think it got them (mostly) out of the alcohol distribution business.

Similar considerations should apply to pot, as part of a larger picture of plusses and minuses of legalization vs. continued prohibition.

68 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:44:53pm

re: #65 SteveMcGazi

I think you could argue that organized criminals got richer after prohibition ended. Remember alcoholic beverages weren’t illegal during Prohibition, just the trafficking. From my admittedly inadequate knowledge of history, I do think that organized crime continued growing without any disruption from the end of Prohibition. In fact, it seemed to blossom, but I will allow that other factors may be involved. Point is, ending Prohibition did NOT curtail the gangsters.

Yet prohibition is what made organized crime so powerful in the 20’s to begin with. Before prohibition, organized crime was limited to things like gambling and prostitution. The general public didn’t really know about gangsters until prohibition. The big problem I have with criminalizing marijuana is that it creates criminals out of people who aren’t honestly criminals. You bring up some fair concerns but I have a big problem with punishing a relatively harmless vice especially while we have ads for other vices such as tobacco and alcohol everywhere.

69 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:46:26pm

re: #61 SteveMcGazi

When was the last time you bought bootleg whiskey?

70 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:46:34pm

re: #67 EPR-radar

I agree that ending Prohibition did not end the gangsters, but I do think it got them (mostly) out of the alcohol distribution business.

Similar considerations should apply to pot, as part of a larger picture of plusses and minuses of legalization vs. continued prohibition.

WHAT? Who infiltrated the Teamsters’ Union then? Weren’t the Teamsters driving trucks? that carried the booze around after Prohibition? That sounds like the distribution business, but what do I know?

71 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:48:24pm

re: #69 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

When was the last time you bought bootleg whiskey?

Actually I only bought whiskey once. Never liked it. I actually don’t drink much, 3 beers in the last 9974 days.

72 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:49:11pm

re: #70 SteveMcGazi

WHAT? Who infiltrated the Teamsters’ Union then? Weren’t the Teamsters driving trucks? that carried the booze around after Prohibition? That sounds like the distribution business, but what do I know?

However, I’m not sure of the point you’re trying to make.

73 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:52:08pm

re: #72 SteveMcGazi

Ugh, I meant to click reply to #69 about the last time I bought bootleg whiskey.

74 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:52:44pm

re: #73 SteveMcGazi

Ugh, I meant to click reply to #69 about the last time I bought bootleg whiskey.

I was wondering about that. It looks like you were arguing with yourself.

75 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:53:30pm

re: #74 BongCrodny

I was wondering about that. It looks like you were arguing with yourself.

I stopped just in time to avoid coming to blows!

76 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:53:44pm

Just guessing, but I bet most of today’s bootleg whiskey gets consumed within a few miles of where it’s made.

77 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:55:21pm

Anyway, that’s the way I see it. I’m not happy about legalizing it because I don’t think the users have really considered all the issues, and I think that the debate has suffered because of it.

78 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 7:59:43pm

re: #68 HappyWarrior

while we have ads for other vices such as tobacco and alcohol everywhere.

The US is (as far as I know) the only country that allows pharmaceutical manufacturers to advertise prescription drugs directly to the general public.

Derpitrol may cause severe flatulence, profuse vomiting, and uncontrollable psychotic rage. Women who are pregnant or who may become pregnant should not handle Derpitrol due to a risk of severe birth defects. Do not operate a motor vehicle or draft legislation while taking Derpitrol. Ask your doctor if Derpitrol is right for you.

79 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:01:15pm

re: #78 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I have to laugh every time at that “low-T” drug: do not touch women or children; may cause cessation of breathing during sleep…

80 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:01:44pm

To encourage organized crime, you don’t even have to go all the way and make something completely illegal. It’s enough to distort the market. I’ve read that organized crime has gotten involved in cigarettes (tobacco), because taxes on cigarettes are so high, the market is distorted. So, the gang or cartel (or whatever you want to call them) buys the cigarettes without paying the tax, then sells them at a profit to people who want to avoid paying the tax.

Of course, there are many reasons for the existence of organized crime in various forms. But if the government distorts the market for something that millions of people REALLY WANT, or goes all the way and makes it illegal, it almost guarantees that criminals will take advantage of the market opportunity.

There’s no simple answer like “make everything legal and don’t bother to regulate it”, but people really need to appreciate that sometimes, making something illegal is the worst thing the government can do.

81 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:02:13pm

re: #78 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

The US is (as far as I know) the only country that allows pharmaceutical manufacturers to advertise prescription drugs directly to the general public.

Derpitrol may cause severe flatulence, profuse vomiting, and uncontrollable psychotic rage. Women who are pregnant or who may become pregnant should not handle Derpitrol due to a risk of severe birth defects. Do not operate a motor vehicle or draft legislation while taking Derpitrol. Ask your doctor if Derpitrol is right for you.

Didn’t know that. But right, it’s the double standard that drives me nuts. I mean we’ve got politicians like Cruz who I’m sure have taken money from the tobacco and alcohol industry or at the very least see nothing wrong with that wanting to keep this illegal. I mean I won’t act like marijuana legalization is going to be a solve all but I really don’t like the double standard that we see on vice issues. I dislike seeing our prison population grow even more because of it.

82 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:02:28pm

re: #77 SteveMcGazi

Anyway, that’s the way I see it. I’m not happy about legalizing it because I don’t think the users have really considered all the issues, and I think that the debate has suffered because of it.

I think your concerns are quite unfounded since I believe the marijuana sold in shops now is grown mostly hydroponically - and in the US probably locally - to ensure quality. There is no need to go kill anyone for this easily grown plant.

83 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:04:03pm

re: #70 SteveMcGazi

WHAT? Who infiltrated the Teamsters’ Union then? Weren’t the Teamsters driving trucks? that carried the booze around after Prohibition? That sounds like the distribution business, but what do I know?

From a quick look at Wikipedia, it looks like the issue of organized crime in the Teamsters was a problem over a span of decades, making it kind of difficult to pin it all on post-Prohibition changes.

84 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:12:24pm

re: #77 SteveMcGazi

Anyway, that’s the way I see it. I’m not happy about legalizing it because I don’t think the users have really considered all the issues, and I think that the debate has suffered because of it.

What do you believe are the unconsidered issues?

And this will no doubt sound like bait, but it isn’t: I want to ask, what do you believe is the typical behavioral characteristic of someone under the influence of marijuana?

85 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:13:34pm

re: #82 allegro

I think your concerns are quite unfounded since I believe the marijuana sold in shops now is grown mostly hydroponically - and in the US probably locally - to ensure quality. There is no need to go kill anyone for this easily grown plant.

From drugscience.org

“It is estimated that 50% of the marijuana available in the United States is imported.” Further, “There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand? Going forward, I just don’t see the traffickers getting taken out of the supply chain.

86 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:13:46pm

re: #77 SteveMcGazi

The vast majority of users would rather buy something through legal, licensed businesses than through some shady dude in a back alley. And there are marijuana growers who are licensed to grow, and would rather be doing it legally as well. You assume that these licensed businesses would be buying illegally produced pot, and you have no evidence but your hunch that there aren’t enough growers who want to be legal.

In short, you’ve built a huge straw man.

87 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:15:57pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

You’re extrapolating numbers from the entire US to two states. The reason it’s imported is because there’s no legal infrastructure for growing it here. Try the tobacco analogy.

88 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:18:13pm

re: #84 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

What do you believe are the unconsidered issues?

And this will no doubt sound like bait, but it isn’t: I want to ask, what do you believe is the typical behavioral characteristic of someone under the influence of marijuana?

I won’t even try to answer that. I’m a pretty square guy. I’m probably the one guy who believed Bill Clinton because I once tried it, but I couldn’t stop coughing so I don’t think I inhaled. I didn’t feel any different so I don’t think I managed to inhale any! Anyway, the issues I care about aren’t the effects of pot on your body or your mind. There are many worse things you could do, I am sure. I just think that legalization advocates are a little to quick to ignore the brutality of the trade, and a little bit too wishful in their belief that legalization will make it all go away.

89 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:19:14pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

From drugscience.org

“It is estimated that 50% of the marijuana available in the United States is imported.” Further, “There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand? Going forward, I just don’t see the traffickers getting taken out of the supply chain.

You do realize that the importation quantities noted are due to its being illegal in the vast majority of the US don’t you? And yes local growers can certainly meet the demands and do so pretty darn quickly once given the go-ahead to legally grow the plants. It grows fast and large amounts can be harvested within weeks.

90 AlexRogan  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:23:06pm

re: #31 GlutenFreeJesus

CNN had some breaking news banner this afternoon that there actually was a traffic study. But that headline wasn’t up for very long.

And KT wasted no time posting that downstairs, IIRC.

91 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:23:59pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

From drugscience.org

“It is estimated that 50% of the marijuana available in the United States is imported.” Further, “There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand? Going forward, I just don’t see the traffickers getting taken out of the supply chain.

I’m pretty sure domestic growers can fill the demand quite nicely. Imported Mexican weed is usually pretty low quality because it’s grown outdoors in large fields. They can only do one crop a year. Indoor growers can cycle crops about every 10 weeks and indoor conditions (no bugs, higher co2, better control over growing conditions) produce a much better product. Growers are actually very skilled at what they do and they’ll be more than happy to do it legally. Legal weed will really hurt the drug cartels. The average illegal dealer still may have a place by undercutting taxes from legal dealers but it’ll hurt their business too.

92 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:24:25pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

From drugscience.org

“It is estimated that 50% of the marijuana available in the United States is imported.” Further, “There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand? Going forward, I just don’t see the traffickers getting taken out of the supply chain.

If we can grow enough tobacco I think we can handle the pot.

93 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:27:36pm

94 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:27:49pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

“There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand?

I have faith in the ability of the free market to meet the demand for legal marijuana, with domestically-grown, non-violently marketed product.

I also have faith in the ability of organized crime to meet the demands for illegal marijuana, with domestically-grown and imported, violently marketed product.

And yes, absolutely, if I were interested in buying marijuana (which I’m not at the moment), I wouldn’t buy it through an illegal channel (meaning outside Washington state or Colorado), because I don’t want to contribute to crime and violence.

95 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:28:30pm

re: #87 Rev_Arthur_Belling

I don’t get your point about the two states. Legalization advocates think marijuana should be legal in all 50. Well, that’s the estimated consumption. I guess most marijuana will still be grown outside the US. My point is that the traffickers who brought the pot into the US when it was illegal will probably be the same ones who bring it in when it’s legal. Like I said above, you can’t wish the blood off of your hands. justify all you want. There are all kinds of rationalizations. Humans are great at justifying all kinds of things we do.

96 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:29:27pm

97 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:30:02pm

98 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:30:42pm

re: #88 SteveMcGazi

Whatever “brutality” exists in “the trade” has everything to do with the risk/reward ratio. Do you really think that if your neighbor the gardener could freely sell weed to anyone he wished without any fear of repercussion, he would still be as “brutal” as the guy who faces long mandatory-minimum sentences in For Real No-Shit Prison for doing exactly the same thing? Which one of the two has more motivation to hide his tracks, avoid scrutiny, and keep blabbermouths quiet?

99 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:31:02pm

re: #95 SteveMcGazi

I don’t get your point about the two states. Legalization advocates think marijuana should be legal in all 50. Well, that’s the estimated consumption. I guess most marijuana will still be grown outside the US. My point is that the traffickers who brought the pot into the US when it was illegal will probably be the same ones who bring it in when it’s legal. Like I said above, you can’t wish the blood off of your hands. justify all you want. There are all kinds of rationalizations. Humans are great at justifying all kinds of things we do.

Do you even bother to read the responses to you?

100 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:31:20pm

Here’s a link to an interesting paper on the cost of production for legalized cannabis.

Estimated Cost of Production for Legalized Cannabis

We previously estimated that a well-managed 5’ x 5’ hydroponic grow can produce about 10.5 pounds of marijuana per year.

If 25 square feet can product about 10 pounds of marijuana, it’s sounds like it wouldn’t be especially difficult to meet the demand.

101 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:33:44pm

re: #99 allegro

Do you even bother to read the responses to you?

Yes. I didn’t mention that the US only grows 4.6% of the worldwide tobacco yield. Using the tobacco analogy, it would be fair to assume that most marijuana will be grown outside the US. Happy?

103 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:35:08pm

re: #100 BongCrodny

Here’s a link to an interesting paper on the cost of production for legalized cannabis.

Estimated Cost of Production for Legalized Cannabis

If 25 square feet can product about 10 pounds of marijuana, it’s sounds like it wouldn’t be especially difficult to meet the demand.

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to grow it hydroponically?

104 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:35:13pm

re: #97 Charles Johnson

[Embedded image]

TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!

105 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:36:31pm

re: #101 SteveMcGazi

The thing is, it will easily grow in a ditch if you throw the seeds there. It’s a weed. The reason the rest of the world is supplying it to consumers here is because of all the resources spent on criminalizing and policing the growth here.

106 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:36:32pm

re: #97 Charles Johnson

WOW! That’s one of my all-time favorites.

107 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:39:40pm

re: #85 SteveMcGazi

From drugscience.org

“It is estimated that 50% of the marijuana available in the United States is imported.” Further, “There is a supply of marijuana in the United States of 21,865 metric tons annually” Do you really think local growers and hydroponics can meet that kind of demand? Going forward, I just don’t see the traffickers getting taken out of the supply chain.

1.) 22K metric tons denotes a quantity, but speaks nothing of quality.
2.) 22K metric tons isn’t all that much by agricultural standards. I’m not sure why you think it is.

However, this is a distinction without a difference. If, as we suggest below, farming yields 500+ pounds of usable dry cannabis per acre, any of these hemp-based production cost estimates suggest that legal, farmed cannabis production costs could be on the order of $1 per pound. When production costs get that low, the main driver of retail price will be things other than production costs (e.g., processing, marketing, and retailing costs).

22K tons / 500 lbs per acre = 97K acres or approx 29% of the amount of US acreage currently devoted to tobacco production. And that’s assuming the entire supply gets grown outdoors, completely ignoring all indoor grow operations.

108 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:41:20pm

re: #101 SteveMcGazi

Yes. I didn’t mention that the US only grows 4.6% of the worldwide tobacco yield. Using the tobacco analogy, it would be fair to assume that most marijuana will be grown outside the US. Happy?

I didn’t make that comparison because I don’t think it’s apt. The stats you cited yourself claim that only 50% of current demands are met through importation while its still illegal to grow in most of the US. That 50% can be very quickly produced once legalized.

109 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:42:35pm

re: #103 SteveMcGazi

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to grow it hydroponically?

I have no idea — my history has been strictly on the, um, consumable side.

However, there’s a section beginning on page 2 that suggests a ballpark figure of $225 per pound. If you can grow it domestically for that kind of money, it suggests you might wind up taking the profit margin away from foreign growing.

110 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:48:35pm

re: #107 goddamnedfrank

As far as total grow areas go, 97K acres is a tad smaller than Denver CO. Legalize weed and the US can put that amount of space together the next day.

111 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:49:01pm

re: #109 BongCrodny

I have no idea — my history has been strictly on the, um, consumable side.

However, there’s a section beginning on page 2 that suggests a ballpark figure of $225 per pound. If you can grow it domestically for that kind of money, it suggests you might wind up taking the profit margin away from foreign growing.

That is a really interesting link. I’ll have to show that to the backyard growers in my neighborhood, some of them do it semi-professionally.

112 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:49:09pm

re: #108 allegro

I didn’t make that comparison because I don’t think it’s apt. The stats you cited yourself claim that only 50% of current demands are met through importation while its still illegal to grow in most of the US. That 50% can be very quickly produced once legalized.

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

113 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:51:29pm

re: #112 SteveMcGazi

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

Do you realize how self-righteous you’re coming off? Pretty much all of us wear clothes made by laborers in terrible conditions. And also not every pot dealer is a vicious murderer despite the narrative you’re trying to sell here.

114 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:54:08pm

re: #103 SteveMcGazi

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to grow it hydroponically?

That is, a well-run 5’ x 5’ hydroponic grow producing 4 harvests per year might yield 10.5 pounds per year with tangible costs of $225 per pound—$75 per pound for electricity and the remaining $150 per pound for other factors.

These costs work out to be quite consistent with those described in a Dutch case study described by Cervantes (2006, p.148). That case study described three harvests: (1) a modest 8.4 pounds grown on 128.6 square feet at a cost of $5,647, (2) a subsequent investment of $8,220 that doubled the area cultivated and improved methods, yielding 27.6 pounds, and (2) a third harvest in the full space of 30.2 pounds whose incremental cost was only $1,882. That works out to ($5,647 + $8,220 + $1,882) / (8.4 + 27.6 + 30.2) = $238 per pound.

Of course the costs per pound in Cervantes’ case study decline if the first two harvests are effectively investments to get the operation running. The cost per pound during the third harvest was only $62 per pound, lower even than just the cost of electricity estimated forthe 5’ x 5’ grow. The longer the operational life over which the initial investment could be amortized, the lower the total cost, but within two years of four harvests per year (i.e., the three harvests described by Cervantes plus a hypothetical five additional harvests like the third), the cost could be $116 per pound.

The above is for an illegal operation. The study speculates what a commercial grow operation would cost:

Labor Cost for a Commercial Growing Operation in a House
This section focuses on commercial indoor growing in houses. If marijuana were fully legal in all respects, including with respect to federal law, there would be no reason to grow marijuana in residential houses. Greenhouses are cheaper to build and maintain and take better advantage of natural light. However, one possible stance of federal law enforcement would be to enforcement federal marijuana laws against brazen growing on farms (in fields or greenhouses), but to ignore covert operation.

…

A typical productivity rate for intensive indoor growing is 0.1 pounds per square foot per harvest. To be consistent with the 5’ x 5’ grow estimates, we will use a figure of 0.105 pounds per square foot per harvest.11 At four harvests per year that suggests 1300 * 0.105 * 4 = 546 pounds per house per year (usable, dry, sinsemilla grade). Assuming 2000 labor-hours per work-year, that suggests a labor productivity of roughly 4 hours per pound grown (exclusive of harvest and processing time), or $40 per pound at a labor rate of $10 per hour.

As an aside, we mentioned above that wages of $20 - $25 per pound came up frequently in our readings. So replacing those enforcement-risk inflated wages (Reuter and Kleiman, 1986), with wages typical of conventional agricultural workers would reduce production costs by about $50 per pound, even if there is no increase in labor productivity.

115 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:54:19pm

re: #112 SteveMcGazi

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

Are you sure you haven’t been drinking?

116 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:55:37pm

re: #112 SteveMcGazi

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

You want to ensure that the victimization continues but we’re the ones who don’t give a fuck about those who have been victimized? Dude, you have some seriously fucked up priorities.

117 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:56:06pm

re: #113 HappyWarrior

Do you realize how self-righteous you’re coming off? Pretty much all of us wear clothes made by laborers in terrible conditions. And also not every pot dealer is a vicious murderer despite the narrative you’re trying to sell here.

But everybody does it!!! Bridgegazi, what about IRS??? 11ty

118 gwangung  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:56:39pm

re: #115 blueraven

Are you sure you haven’t been drinking?

I get the distinct impression of “Don’t bother me with facts, my mind is made up!”

119 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:57:17pm

I’m not the one who subsidized the murders. Don’t try to project that shit on me.

120 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:57:48pm

re: #118 gwangung

I get the distinct impression of “Don’t bother me with facts, my mind is made up!”

True, but he is not always such a douche about it.

121 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:58:43pm

re: #117 SteveMcGazi

But everybody does it!!! Bridgegazi, what about IRS??? 11ty

Okay, I see you don’t want to have a reasonable discussion on this issue at all.

122 gwangung  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:59:28pm

re: #120 blueraven

True, but he is not always such a douche about it.

There’s a vague glimmer of a good argument there, but that takes a little thinking and a little logic to pull together and develop, neither of which he seems inclined to come anywhere near.

123 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 8:59:39pm

re: #112 SteveMcGazi

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

Wow, so you’re kind of an asshole. This entire logic impaired schtick could’ve been said during Prohibition about the people killed by bootlegging gangsters.

124 Kragar  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:03:08pm

Well, I just submitted a bunch of my model pics to a fan site to see how they go over.

125 Single-handed sailor  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:03:17pm

If it is legal, you can grow your own. That pretty much cuts the commercial value down to a few dollars a pound.

126 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:04:49pm

re: #120 blueraven

True, but he is not always such a douche about it.

I usually hide it better. I clearly harbor a lot of ill will about the past. As I started out, I’m not that gassed to see the people who supported of lot of non-victimless crime try to ignore the consequences of their actions. I suppose that with the US taking the lead, other nations will also probably legalize. I’m not with those clowns who say that pot will rot your mind and ruin your life (people do that anyway, with or without it). I’ve just seen too many innocent bystanders, too many videos of rows of bodies along the roadside.

127 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:07:16pm

re: #123 goddamnedfrank

Wow, so you’re kind of an asshole. This entire logic impaired schtick could’ve been said during Prohibition about the people killed by bootlegging gangsters.

And the people who bought booze off of the bootleggers had blood on their hands too. You can’t wish it away.

128 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:07:48pm

re: #126 SteveMcGazi

I usually hide it better. I clearly harbor a lot of ill will about the past. As I started out, I’m not that gassed to see the people who supported of lot of non-victimless crime try to ignore the consequences of their actions. I suppose that with the US taking the lead, other nations will also probably legalize. I’m not with those clowns who say that pot will rot your mind and ruin your life (people do that anyway, with or without it). I’ve just seen too many innocent bystanders, too many videos of rows of bodies along the roadside.

Then what do you propose? Keep it illegal? What changes then?
You can not stop people from smoking pot. It is a reality.

129 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:08:16pm

Shame we couldn’t resolve anything. See you guys around.

130 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:09:11pm

re: #128 blueraven

I SAID I wasn’t happy about it. The users want to conveniently ignore what they participated in. Good night.

131 blueraven  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:10:57pm

re: #130 SteveMcGazi

I SAID I wasn’t happy about it. The users want to conveniently ignore what they participated in. Good night.

DUDE, don’t go away mad…

132 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:11:38pm

re: #126 SteveMcGazi

I usually hide it better. I clearly harbor a lot of ill will about the past. As I started out, I’m not that gassed to see the people who supported of lot of non-victimless crime try to ignore the consequences of their actions. I suppose that with the US taking the lead, other nations will also probably legalize. I’m not with those clowns who say that pot will rot your mind and ruin your life (people do that anyway, with or without it). I’ve just seen too many innocent bystanders, too many videos of rows of bodies along the roadside.

Ending alcohol prohibition ended the violence in that trade. I’m not sure what fuels your fears except for an inability or unwillingness to acknowledge how making a product like pot illegal is what actually causes the violence. When you remove a person’s ability to use society’s mechanisms for conflict resolution, the police and the courts, then you’ve left them with no other recourse than to use force.

133 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:12:03pm

I want to end the War on Drugs precisely because it has killed so many people, and continues to kill people.

Thanks to medical marijuana in many states, plus legalization now in Washington and Colorado, more Americans can choose to purchase (or grow) marijuana without giving money to violent criminals.

134 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:12:29pm

re: #125 Single-handed sailor

If it is legal, you can grow your own. That pretty much cuts the commercial value down to a few dollars a pound.

Probably not. You can easily grow a lot of your own food but most people don’t bother. I even catch myself buying apples at the store when I know there’s a tree across the street full of them. tobacco is really expensive now but I don’t know any smokers who grow their own. A lot of people may keep some backyard plants but most people will just buy it in stores.

135 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:12:49pm

re: #119 SteveMcGazi

Troll be trolling.

136 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:12:54pm

re: #130 SteveMcGazi

I SAID I wasn’t happy about it. The users want to conveniently ignore what they participated in. Good night.

It’s the willful ignorance of people like you that perpetuates the violence. If the blood is on anybody’s hands, it’s yours.

137 Ming  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:14:11pm

re: #127 SteveMcGazi

And the people who bought booze off of the bootleggers had blood on their hands too. You can’t wish it away.

I agree. I would not buy booze from a bootlegger, because I choose not to contribute to violent crime.

I would encourage the legalization and regulation of alcohol, so that I could someday buy booze, and enjoy it, WITHOUT contributing to violent crime.

138 Single-handed sailor  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:14:23pm

I have bought nothing but Northern California bud since 1976. I finally joined NORML a decade or so ago. I got this t-shirt when I joined. I still wear it.

NORML Fight Terrorism Buy Domestic

139 jaunte  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:14:31pm

Astor Piazzolla - Libertango
Youtube Video

140 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:16:15pm

re: #46 missliberties

A true and pure teabagger does not view Lincoln as any kind of hero.

A lot of them already don’t. The libertarians and Paultards have been calling Lincoln a genocidal tyrant for ages. Toss in the bigots and neo-Confederates that flipped their shit when Obama got elected in 2008 and a growing number on the right are basically anti-Lincoln now.

141 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:16:33pm

re: #126 SteveMcGazi

I’ve just seen too many innocent bystanders, too many videos of rows of bodies along the roadside.

You do realize there are other, more addictive, more lucrative drugs than pot that drug cartels deal in, right?

142 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:18:38pm

re: #127 SteveMcGazi

And the people who bought booze off of the bootleggers had blood on their hands too. You can’t wish it away.

Plenty of bootlegging got done without violence. Plenty of home stills churned away feeding the market demand.

Basically you’re just a smug statist worshiping the status quo, smugly condemning others for the violence that your own preferred policies incubate and ensure continues. Pretty much the dumbest, worst kind of citizen.

143 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:22:16pm

Do you buy stuff from China? Well, you’ve got blood on your hands. Did you ever buy your wife or girlfriend a diamond? Well, you’ve got blood on your hands. Ever ride a train? Ditto. Ever have a Coca-Cola?

If you’re as pure as the driven snow, bully for you.

144 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:23:19pm

re: #126 SteveMcGazi

I’ve just seen too many innocent bystanders, too many videos of rows of bodies along the roadside.

The cartels don’t mow down innocent bystanders over weed. They do it for harder drugs that make them more money and which are far more lucrative.

Also, the people you see hanging from bridges or killed on the roadside often tend to be bloggers, journalists and/or critics that have taken a public stand against the cartels. They’re not all just folks that got caught in the crossfire.

145 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:25:21pm

re: #143 BongCrodny

Exactly, unless you ride a bike everywhere, grow all your own food, spin all your own fabrics and sew all your own clothes you’re probably exploiting the fuck out of somebody.

146 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:27:15pm

re: #144 Lidane

Also, the people you see hanging from bridges or killed on the roadside often tend to be bloggers, journalists and/or critics that have taken a public stand against the cartels. They’re not all just folks that got caught in the crossfire.

I’m not sure that makes it better. It’s the system of illegality that allows the cartels to thrive. People like Steve who advocate for prohibition are their best friends.

147 allegro  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:28:14pm

re: #145 goddamnedfrank

Exactly, unless you ride a bike everywhere, grow all your own food, spin all your own fabrics and sew all your own clothes you’re probably exploiting the fuck out of somebody.

I went out to eat with a friend this evening. If there’s an exploited class it’s restaurant workers. I do tip well though.

148 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:31:41pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

I’m not sure that makes it better. It’s the system of illegality that allows the cartels to thrive. People like Steve who advocate for prohibition are their best friends.

It doesn’t make it better at all. But the point is that the cartels don’t just engage in random, mindless violence. At the very top, they’re led by ex-military and ex-law enforcement types. Everything is done for a reason. The bloggers and journalists and critics are hung from bridges and overpasses to make the point that criticism = death. Rivals are targeted. There’s a larger plan at work.

They’re not going to lose their shit and start mowing down innocent people by the truckload over weed. They will, however, go after their critics and anyone who tries to stop them. They’ll also go after anyone who threatens their supply routes.

149 The War TARDIS  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:42:51pm

re: #148 Lidane

Mexico is going to have a hell of a time rooting them out.

150 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:46:41pm

re: #138 Single-handed sailor

I have bought nothing but Northern California bud since 1976. I finally joined NORML a decade or so ago. I got this t-shirt when I joined. I still wear it.

NORML Fight Terrorism Buy Domestic

I talked to the guys from NORML when I was scoping out the semi’legal scene here in Portland a few years ago. Nice folks, very willing to share information.

151 Just never mind.  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:56:30pm

re: #131 blueraven

DUDE, don’t go away mad…

Just go away!

152 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 9:57:24pm

re: #151 Just never mind.

Just go away!

Any updates from Hoops?

153 Just never mind.  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 10:04:04pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

He was safe & sound with Winston last night.

154 Varek Raith  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 10:16:46pm

re: #153 Just never mind.

He was safe & sound with Winston last night.

Good to hear.

155 Varek Raith  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 10:17:55pm

Youtube Video

156 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 10:38:35pm

re: #112 SteveMcGazi

Think of the jobs! Think of all the immigrants you’d need to harvest. Anyway, I remain ambivalentdisgusted. I think the people who consumed marijuana illegally have blood on their hands. That’s why I’m in no rush to just roll over and say forget all of those victims. Forget the murders of innocents just so you could get high. You, on the other hand, couldn’t give a fuck.

Wow, maybe you should go fill up your gas tank with petrol and take a nice long drive to relax.

157 Lidane  Fri, Jan 10, 2014 11:03:42pm

The younger Feline Overlord that just came into my house appears to be sick. I’m not surprised since she was outside and homeless and it got below freezing at least once before she was comfortable enough with the boyfriend that he took her in.

Whatever it is thankfully is confined to the kitten. The older kitty hasn’t shown any signs or symptoms of being affected. But the little one is a sneezy, coughy, runny nose having kitty. Poor thing. Good thing she’s going to the vet on Monday to get fixed and get all her shots. Hopefully they can give her antibiotics or something to kill her cold.

158 freetoken  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:01:23am

MP3 Audio

159 freetoken  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:13:33am

Everybody needs a little bit of Glinka in their life:

MP3 Audio

160 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:01:30am

Still asking: How did Cruz ever get out of Harvard Law? In fact, how did he ever get to Princeton? I will tell you how: he was their favored rightwing student, bred in the “christian” schools of Texas and libertarian economic theory. He was groomed very well. Not “off the charts brilliant” as Dershowitz described him, but “off the charts” conformist to right wing ideology, so much so that he was a John M Olin Fellow in Law and Economics at Harvard.

Just as you’re not an artist if you paint by numbers, you’re not a thinker if you simply follow an ideology and give the correct answers.

You can bet your life Cruz has never been an original thinker. He couldn’t spout off hypocrisy like this if he were. He may have the cunning instincts of a predator, but I would never trust the reins of govt to someone like him.

161 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:09:04am

Cruz has still not released his long form Canadian birth certificate, or if he has it’s an obvious fake. I am demanding that our local sheriff appoint a posse (of Democrats) to look into it.

162 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:23:22am

To me, this is just criminal activity by infantile minds. Trying to be the next hacker “hero”?

Dropbox website goes down, hackers claim responsibility

theverge.com

“Mommy! Look what a clever boy I am!”

163 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:38:23am

I’m beginning to be thankful that I’m too poor to shop.

Neiman Says Some Credit-Card Data May Be Stolen
Hackers May Have Gained Access to Customers’ Information During Holidays

online.wsj.com

Although thieves usually don’t really care about your financial position.

164 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 3:15:07am

It’s the prohibitionists with blood on their hands. Make alcohol illegal again. See what happens.

165 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 3:20:12am

re: #163 Justanotherhuman

These credit card companies and retailers have been negligent with our data for a very long time. They figure it’s cheaper to push their losses on comsumers with higher fees than it is to produce a halfway decent secure method. Are CC companies able to push fraud/theft losses onto taxpayers as well?

166 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 3:34:50am

re: #165 Amory Blaine

These credit card companies and retailers have been negligent with our data for a very long time. They figure it’s cheaper to push their losses on comsumers with higher fees than it is to produce a halfway decent secure method. Are CC companies able to push fraud/theft losses onto taxpayers as well?

Probably. I’ve seen credit cards move from a high interest rate of maybe 10% to 29% and higher.

That’s not credit, that’s usury.

It’s become a matter of whether or not you can pay off these credit cards every month or not. If you can’t, or pay only the minimum payment, you are hooked for life.

I don’t have any credit cards and haven’t in almost 20 yrs, simply because I know I don’t have the income to carry one. Our economy is too centered on consumption, something I’ve always thought, and it means you must continually keep buying, keep replacing, keep in debt. Nothing lasts anymore—and that’s for a reason. At the same time, we’re wasting resources and inviting disaster.

What we teach our kids about mindless consumption is going to have a big impact on their future, and I don’t see a lot of that happening.

167 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 3:48:15am

Listening to a reprise of Rachel Maddow’s show from last night, and wowser, Christie is a mean, vindictive SOB.

You “crossed” him by just doing your job or by some perceived slight? You pay.

168 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:24:51am

re: #166 Justanotherhuman

Probably. I’ve seen credit cards move from a high interest rate of maybe 10% to 29% and higher.

That’s not credit, that’s usury.

It’s become a matter of whether or not you can pay off these credit cards every month or not. If you can’t, or pay only the minimum payment, you are hooked for life.

I don’t have any credit cards and haven’t in almost 20 yrs, simply because I know I don’t have the income to carry one. Our economy is too centered on consumption, something I’ve always thought, and it means you must continually keep buying, keep replacing, keep in debt. Nothing lasts anymore—and that’s for a reason. At the same time, we’re wasting resources and inviting disaster.

What we teach our kids about mindless consumption is going to have a big impact on their future, and I don’t see a lot of that happening.

Something tells me the change in maximum interest rates came about after lobbying by the banks and credit card firms during the Reagan era.

169 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:38:33am
170 BongCrodny  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:41:40am

re: #161 Shiplord Kirel

Cruz has still not released his long form Canadian birth certificate, or if he has it’s an obvious fake. I am demanding that our local sheriff appoint a posse (of Democrats) to look into it.

The problem with that is I don’t think we have anybody even close to the investigative wherewithal that such noble stalwarts as Sheriff Arpaio and ex-Sheriff Kessler exhibit.

171 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:49:16am

re: #168 wheat-dogghazi

Something tells me the change in maximum interest rates came about after lobbying by the banks and credit card firms during the Reagan era.

I found my answer. Took some digging. The change first came about in 1979, after SCOTUS ruled that banks could charge the highest interest permissible in the bank’s own state to all customers, regardless of where they live. In other words, state usury laws no longer applied.

Then the bank deregulation act of 1980 extended the looser interest rate rules to state-chartered banks. In short order, state legislatures fell in line and gave state-charted banks carte blanche to charge whatever out-of-state banks charge.

(See what I did there?)

“In effect, what that really meant is that there are virtually no interest rate limits that are applicable to any type of bank, anywhere in the country, anymore,” says Christopher L. Peterson, a professor of law at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, and usury law expert.

Read more: bankrate.com
Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook

Credit unions, on the other hand, have a maximum interest rate of 18%.

172 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:58:31am

re: #171 wheat-dogghazi

Yeah North Dakota and Delaware are their bases of operation.

173 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:08:35am

re: #171 wheat-dogghazi

I found my answer. Took some digging. The change first came about in 1979, after SCOTUS ruled that banks could charge the highest interest permissible in the bank’s own state to all customers, regardless of where they live. In other words, state usury laws no longer applied.

Then the bank deregulation act of 1980 extended the looser interest rate rules to state-chartered banks. In short order, state legislatures fell in line and gave state-charted banks carte blanche to charge whatever out-of-state banks charge.

(See what I did there?)

Credit unions, on the other hand, have a maximum interest rate of 18%.

Yes. Good work there. I’m old. I was thinking more in terms of the cheaper interest rates before Reagan, when credit wasn’t some form of indentured servitude, but helped people who needed long term loans for things like autos and homes. Once credit cards started gaining favor in order to purchase perishable goods, like lunch and clothing, which really wasn’t so widespread before the 1990s, I knew there was trouble ahead. It was the same period of time in which credit card companies started sending out unsolicited credit cards as well. It took advantage of people’s desires, their hope for something better, even their greed.

Some people are still paying off that Coke and honey bun they bought at the 7-11 almost 10 yrs ago, I’d bet. Or at least xmas.

174 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:21:09am

re: #173 Justanotherhuman

Yes. Good work there. I’m old. I was thinking more in terms of the cheaper interest rates before Reagan, when credit wasn’t some form of indentured servitude, but helped people who needed long term loans for things like autos and homes. Once credit cards started gaining favor in order to purchase perishable goods, like lunch and clothing, which really wasn’t so widespread before the 1990s, I knew there was trouble ahead. It was the same period of time in which credit card companies started sending out unsolicited credit cards as well. It took advantage of people’s desires, their hope for something better, even their greed.

Some people are still paying off that Coke and honey bun they bought at the 7-11 almost 10 yrs ago, I’d bet. Or at least xmas.

Easy credit was a boon to the banks and the credit card companies (and collection agencies), but a nightmare for consumers. People got real used to buying stuff they couldn’t afford. In time, that business model was extended to mortgages. And we know how that turned out.

I can remember when banks paid something like 5.5% interest on savings accounts. That ended in 1980, too.

Thanks, Reagan.

175 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:28:57am

re: #174 wheat-dogghazi

Easy credit was a boon to the banks and the credit card companies (and collection agencies), but a nightmare for consumers. People got real used to buying stuff they couldn’t afford. In time, that business model was extended to mortgages. And we know how that turned out.

I can remember when banks paid something like 5.5% interest on savings accounts. That ended in 1980, too.

Thanks, Reagan.

Wasn’t the overabundance of cheap credit and the usage of it to get into shit that the average consumer really knew little about in terms of long-term ramifications how we got the Great Depression?

176 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:38:39am

re: #174 wheat-dogghazi

Easy credit was a boon to the banks and the credit card companies (and collection agencies), but a nightmare for consumers. People got real used to buying stuff they couldn’t afford. In time, that business model was extended to mortgages. And we know how that turned out.

I can remember when banks paid something like 5.5% interest on savings accounts. That ended in 1980, too.

Thanks, Reagan.

Yeah, Reagan killed the savings habit, too, which people my age and older used to engage in; you would save up to buy something, like a washer or dryer, for instance, or if for a car or house, save for a down payment. It’s all about profit, and profit only, increasing their own wealth and snaring everyone else inside their web.

What good does it do us to consume so much? Is it really enriching us? Or simply exploiting everyone? I say the latter, all the way around.

The more we consume, the more wealth inequality has increased.

No one saves anymore. It’s all about spending, “investing” and the casino known as the stock market.

177 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:52:12am

re: #174 wheat-dogghazi

Easy credit was a boon to the banks and the credit card companies (and collection agencies), but a nightmare for consumers. People got real used to buying stuff they couldn’t afford. In time, that business model was extended to mortgages. And we know how that turned out.

I can remember when banks paid something like 5.5% interest on savings accounts. That ended in 1980, too.

Thanks, Reagan.

Ronald Reagan wasn’t yet president in 1980. A law enacted in 1980 would have been signed by Jimmy Carter.

178 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:02:04am

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Ronald Reagan wasn’t yet president in 1980. A law enacted in 1980 would have been signed by Jimmy Carter.

Quite right. I stand corrected.

Thanks, Carter!

179 compound_Idaho  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:04:49am

re: #174 wheat-dogghazi

Easy credit was a boon to the banks and the credit card companies (and collection agencies), but a nightmare for consumers. People got real used to buying stuff they couldn’t afford. In time, that business model was extended to mortgages. And we know how that turned out.

I can remember when banks paid something like 5.5% interest on savings accounts. That ended in 1980, too.

Thanks, Reagan.

Inflation was >10% in 1980

180 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:11:04am

re: #175 Targetpractice

Wasn’t the overabundance of cheap credit and the usage of it to get into shit that the average consumer really knew little about in terms of long-term ramifications how we got the Great Depression?

And so much of that happened during Republican administrations—the mini-depression started in Dec 2007 and culminated in the TARP—Bush was not going to allow the criminal activity under his watch to destroy the economy totally, I suppose. Obama didn’t have much choice but to follow through because it was already in motion and they knew he was going to win the election. It would have been unprecedented to allow more banks to fail after TARP was passed.

However, if Pres Obama had not pushed for a stimulus program, we would have gone full blown into a depression, regardless of TARP, I think.

And that put us where we are today, recovering slowly, but surely, and people themselves being far more cautious about credit. Unfortunately, it also means that we have developed an underclass that will probably never be employed again or will continue to be underemployed—victims of those policies that got us to this point.

181 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:22:04am

re: #180 Justanotherhuman

And so much of that happened during Republican administrations—the mini-depression started in Dec 2007 and culminated in the TARP—Bush was not going to allow the criminal activity under his watch to destroy the economy totally, I suppose. Obama didn’t have much choice but to follow through because it was already in motion and they knew he was going to win the election. It would have been unprecedented to allow more banks to fail after TARP was passed.

However, if Pres Obama had not pushed for a stimulus program, we would have gone full blown into a depression, regardless of TARP, I think.

And that put us where we are today, recovering slowly, but surely, and people themselves being far more cautious about credit. Unfortunately, it also means that we have developed an underclass that will probably never be employed again or will continue to be underemployed—victims of those policies that got us to this point.

This is the sort of situation that would benefit greatly from a massive infrastructure program, getting much-needed work done while putting people back to work in careers which would impart valuable training and experience, while also putting money back into the economy. Instead, we’re locked into this insanity where, instead of arguing over whether austerity is needed in the midst of a recovery, we’re arguing over how much austerity we should impose. Great example being the argument over food stamps in the farm bill, with the two positions not one of massive cuts on one side and continued or increased spending on the other, but rather massive cuts versus small cuts.

182 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:42:05am

re: #181 Targetpractice

This is the sort of situation that would benefit greatly from a massive infrastructure program, getting much-needed work done while putting people back to work in careers which would impart valuable training and experience, while also putting money back into the economy. Instead, we’re locked into this insanity where, instead of arguing over whether austerity is needed in the midst of a recovery, we’re arguing over how much austerity we should impose. Great example being the argument over food stamps in the farm bill, with the two positions not one of massive cuts on one side and continued or increased spending on the other, but rather massive cuts versus small cuts.

ETA: Yes, I agree with the infrastructure suggestion, totally.

There have already been cuts in food stamps. The dollar amts across the board have been reduced from previous amts increased during the worst of unemployment. Two people in NC on FS get about $300/mo; that’s less than $75/wk to cover 21 meals, or around $3.50 per meal, $1.75 per person (actually a bit less than those numbers). That’s not very much, and it’s assuming that meals are prepared from scratch, too, I would assume.

When we think of food, we also don’t think about replacing used up condiments or basics like sugar, flour, etc which can be expensive to replace. Have you priced coffee recently? And then, there’s variety. You can easily spend $10 just on the ingredients for a salad because produce is expensive. How many people are feeding their kids boxes of Kraft Mac and Cheese several times a week because it’s cheap?

183 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:52:01am

re: #179 compound_Idaho

Inflation was >10% in 1980

Which was likely part of the reason for high interest rates. Paul Volker had raised interest rates in order to finally put an end to the high inflation that was damaging the economy. Raising interest rates for credit cards may have been part of that effort.

It should be noted that Volker’s actions were the primary reason why even after the oil shocks of the 70’s had faded the economy remained in recession till 1983. To be fair to both Carter and Reagan, they knew what Volker was doing and supported his doing it. But the realities of inflation fighting were not things either president could truly explain to the public. The high interest rates were like chemotherapy: Needed for longer term survival, but something that made short term life worse. But the president cannot say “I know these interest rates will ruin your small business, but they’re needed right now to ensure the nation’s long term prosperity.”

184 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:54:57am

re: #183 Dark_Falcon

Which was likely part of the reason for high interest rates. Paul Volker had raised interest rates in order to finally put an end to the high inflation that was damaging the economy. Raising interest rates for credit cards may have been part of that effort.

It should be noted that Volker’s actions were the primary reason why even after the oil shocks of the 70’s had faded the economy remained in recession till 1983. To be fair to both Carter and Reagan, they knew what Volker was doing and supported his doing it. But the realities of inflation fighting were not things either president could truly explain to the public. The high interest rates were like chemotherapy: Needed for longer term survival, but something that made short term life worse. But the president cannot say “I know these interest rates will ruin your small business, but they’re needed right now to ensure the nation’s long term prosperity.”

Which is largely because we’ve spent the past century slowly dismantling the idea that living for tomorrow is as important as enjoying life today. People see no massive irony in racking up all sorts of credit card debt today so that their kids know no hardship, while at the same time getting all sorts of irate about the national debt which “Our grandkids will be paying off!!!”

185 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:56:35am

Morning! Had a nice little guitar jam with a buddy last night. A good thing.

Anyway, after reading some of the above I have to ask… does SteveMcGazi live under a rock?

It seemed he has no idea about indoor gardening which has been going on since the later 70s and really increased with improved tech goodies in the 80s.

Also, he must not watch any damn news stories because for the last few weeks they have been all over Colorado growing rooms showing how elaborate and large some are.

He must not know anyone from Kentucky and West Bygod Virginia and other eastern coal states. It has been widely known that Kentucky’s largest cash crop is…pot! Yep. And it may be similar in many other Appalachian areas, like WVA and even lower parts of Ohio…my state.

Now I am not real sure, but I have heard stories about some of those old abandoned coal mines and other places like large buildings, barns etc. that have some pretty large hydroponic systems that go along with some outdoor crops, etc. I have also been of the understanding that local law enforcement can turn a blind eye because they know the states economic plight and understand folks need to have something to get by.

Maybe some of the folks from those areas can confirm some of what I am writing. But the point is, Mr SteveMcGazi is way way off on how marijuana is grown and marketed even while illegal in this country. I think his numbers of how much domestic production already exists are off. And if other states go legal, or the country that good old American can-do spirit will take over.

But then as others posted…SteveMcGazi may just be doing some fishing. Also, can anyone be that dense about history, or is all that just part of his tackle box?

186 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 6:59:22am

Mornin’ everyone. No matter how shitty your day may be, you’re not this guy.

187 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:00:43am

re: #186 darthstar

Mornin’ everyone. No matter how shitty your day may be, you’re not this guy.

[Embedded content]

Uh oh, Dark_Falcon is not gonna like that headline! Are you Dark…

/

188 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:02:10am

Seriously, if you’re going to be president, be president of France.

189 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:02:12am

re: #185 ObserverArt

He’d probably be surprised, too, at how many people turn up their noses at “Mexican” weed. It’s considered sub-par, even around here, dirt weed at best, and usually sold to people who aren’t discriminating, or teens looking to try some.

If people are going to pay $50-$75 a quarter around here (NC), it’s not going to be for Mexican weed, it’s going to be for something that gets you high on a couple of tokes, not the entire joint. So, it really does depend upon where you are.

190 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:02:58am

re: #187 ObserverArt

Uh oh, Dark_Falcon is not gonna like that headline! Are you Dark…

/

Hey, it’s Murdoch…not me.

191 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:04:02am

re: #185 ObserverArt

Neither Steve nor Ted have any faith in the Invisible Hand of the Market and its ability to swoop down and solve all problems…

192 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:05:26am

re: #189 Justanotherhuman

If people are going to pay $50-$75 a quarter around here (NC), it’s not going to be for Mexican weed, it’s going to be for something that gets you high on a couple of tokes, not the entire joint. So, it really does depend upon where you are.

“Now that’s what I call a New York Joint! You can pick your teeth with a New York joint!”

-Jim Morrison live on stage

193 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:05:58am

A handful of these customers beat 70 million target shoppers’ data any day.

194 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:07:00am
195 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:09:27am

re: #186 darthstar

Mornin’ everyone. No matter how shitty your day may be, you’re not this guy.

[Embedded content]

The rabbit hole only got deeper yesterday with the document dump. Cops telling irate motorists that the GWB backup was because of something the mayor did, the chief of said cops looking like he might have gone along with the scam either before or just after getting a promotion, and an unexplained meeting between Samson and Christie a week before the whole mess began. And note that these aren’t just random documents obtained, these are all documents that Wildstein submitted under a subpoena looking for anything that would pertain to the shutdown.

Seems like only a matter of time before one of the conspirators drops a dime on his boss.

196 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:10:23am

re: #187 ObserverArt

Uh oh, Dark_Falcon is not gonna like that headline! Are you Dark…

/

No, I don’t like it. I do think the Butcher of Broadway is enjoying this too much, but that’s to be expected.

197 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:12:04am

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

No, I don’t like it. I do think the Butcher of Broadway is enjoying this too much, but that’s to be expected.

Who is the Butcher of Broadway? That’s an awesome nickname.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:14:52am

re: #197 darthstar

Who is the Butcher of Broadway? That’s an awesome nickname.

Frank Rich.

199 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:14:59am

re: #192 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)

“Now that’s what I call a New York Joint! You can pick your teeth with a New York joint!”

-Jim Morrison live on stage

We call them “NY Slims”—it’s actually an insult and has nothing to do with the quality of the weed itself but with stinginess, not rolling a regular joint when you’re passing one around in a group. OTOH, what is the attraction of blunts? Is it because they really have inferior pot and have to make them that way?

200 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:15:56am

re: #194 darthstar

How many $150,000 falconry kits equals a pair of cargo shorts and two tank tops?

201 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:17:21am

But that wasn’t a fat joke anyway. It was just Murdoch class rising to the surface.

Incidentally, I’ve refrained from fat jokes. In part because I think they’re stupid and show a lack of creativity, and also because this story is big enough already without some snarky reference to the gravity of the situation.

202 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:19:17am

re: #200 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)

How many $150,000 falconry kits equals a pair of cargo shorts and two tank tops?

What really sucks is I bought my mom’s and my wife’s Xmas gifts at Neiman Marcus this year…right after getting a new bank card because of a stop at Target in November as we were picking up sundry items for our ski lease.

203 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:20:03am

re: #201 darthstar

But that wasn’t a fat joke anyway. It was just Murdoch class rising to the surface.

Incidentally, I’ve refrained from fat jokes. In part because I think they’re stupid and show a lack of creativity, and also because this story is big enough already without some snarky reference to the gravity of the situation.

Yunno, even before this story broke, I as not looking forward to a Christie campaign because of the endless stream of weight-related jokes it would generate.

Face it, Americans are obsessed with body image and orifices and everything that goes into or comes out of them, it is like a infantile fixation.

204 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:20:53am
205 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:21:01am

re: #202 darthstar

What really sucks is I bought my mom’s and my wife’s Xmas gifts at Neiman Marcus this year…right after getting a new bank card because of a stop at Target in November as we were picking up sundry items for our ski lease.

I know you check your card statements, especially after what happened at Target, but I’m sorry this is happening for you again and I hope nobody got hold of your info.

206 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:21:45am

re: #197 darthstar

Who is the Butcher of Broadway? That’s an awesome nickname.

If I had any talent, I would write a MUSICAL about a failed theater actor or playwright who turns to serial killing due to frustration over his/her inability to Make It Big on Broadway.

Or, maybe I could write a play about a guy who is unable to muster enough talent to write a musical about a failed theater actor who turns to serial killing,…

207 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:22:35am

re: #203 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)

Yunno, even before this story broke, I as not looking forward to a Christie campaign because of the endless stream of weight-related jokes it would generate.

Face it, Americans are obsessed with body image and orifices and everything that goes into or comes out of them, it is like a infantile fixation.

This at least saves him from getting roasted in the primaries by poster boys Cruz, Rubio, and Paul.

208 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:24:25am

re: #195 Targetpractice

The rabbit hole only got deeper yesterday with the document dump. Cops telling irate motorists that the GWB backup was because of something the mayor did, the chief of said cops looking like he might have gone along with the scam either before or just after getting a promotion, and an unexplained meeting between Samson and Christie a week before the whole mess began. And note that these aren’t just random documents obtained, these are all documents that Wildstein submitted under a subpoena looking for anything that would pertain to the shutdown.

Seems like only a matter of time before one of the conspirators drops a dime on his boss.

“…an unexplained meeting between Samson and Christie a week before the whole mess began…

Aha!

209 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:24:42am

re: #206 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

If I had any talent, I would write a MUSICAL about a failed theater actor or playwright who turns to serial killing due to frustration over his/her inability to Make It Big on Broadway.

Or, maybe I could write a play about a guy who is unable to muster enough talent to write a musical about a failed theater actor who turns to serial killing,…

Just don’t take this train of thought any further.

210 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:25:38am

re: #204 darthstar

[Embedded content]

He was a controversial political leader after having been a kickass battle leader. But through it all he loved his country did his best for her.

RIP

211 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:26:04am

re: #208 Justanotherhuman

“…an unexplained meeting between Samson and Christie a week before the whole mess began…

Aha!

I don’t consider it a smoking gun, don’t really consider it to be much beyond a major question for Christie to answer. But I note that the list of questions that only he can answer seems to be getting longer and longer. It seems that whatever hope he might have had for the whole matter to end with his “apology” on Thursday has been for naught.

212 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:28:46am

re: #185 ObserverArt

Everything you state in your comment is 100% correct.
Where I live in eastern Kentucky, pot is indeed the # 1 cash crop (because it is just so freakin easy to grow and profit margin is astounding), and bootlegging is still a fairly well-known occupation (because prohibition is still alive and well hereabouts in the form of “dry counties”).
As a former burley tobacco grower, I would love for pot to become legal. Not because I would grow pot, but would grow hemp (a much more useful and versatile product, IMHO).
After decades of farming there is one thing I know how to grow exceedingly well, and that’s weeds…

213 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:29:03am

re: #211 Targetpractice

I don’t consider it a smoking gun, don’t really consider it to be much beyond a major question for Christie to answer. But I note that the list of questions that only he can answer seems to be getting longer and longer. It seems that whatever hope he might have had for the whole matter to end with his “apology” on Thursday has been for naught.

I doubt he thought his press conference was going to end this mess. In my view, his goal was more modest: To get his statement out and then to take enough questions and answer them enough to avoid the appearance that he was stonewalling.

214 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:30:47am

Come on…he can’t fire everybody involved. That would gut his office.

politico.com

In one instance in October, Christie spokesman Michael Drewniak responded to questions from Star-Ledger reporter Steve Strunsky. Then, switching to his Gmail account, Drewniak forwarded the exchange to Wildstein.

“Such a f— mutt,” Drewniak wrote. “See below…”

The governor is not dismissing Drewniak in light of the latest release of documents, spokesman Colin Reed said.

And in Christie’s defense, he probably agrees that Strunsky is a fucking mutt.

215 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:31:12am

I don’t think Snowden is working hard enough…

Five militants arrested in southern Russia, bomb defused

reuters.com

(Reuters) - Five members of a banned militant group have been arrested in the southern Russian town of Nalchik, where a homemade bomb packed with shrapnel has been defused, the Russian National Anti-terrorism Committee said on Saturday.

“Nalchik, in the foothills of the Caucasus mountains, is about 300 km (190 miles) from the town of Sochi, host of next month’s Winter Olympics, which Islamist militants have threatened to attack.

“President Vladimir Putin, who has staked his political and personal prestige on the Games, has already ordered security measures beefed up nationwide since suicide bombers killed at least 34 people last month in Volgograd, also in southern Russia.”

216 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:32:06am

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

I doubt he thought his press conference was going to end this mess. In my view, his goal was more modest: To get his statement out and then to take enough questions and answer them enough to avoid the appearance that he was stonewalling.

And instead, all he did was grow the list of questions, make a lot of statements that even the reporters present thought sounded off, and ultimately make it look like the only thing missing from this scene out of a political thriller was him mopping sweat from his brow.

217 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:35:32am

re: #216 Targetpractice

the only thing missing from this scene out of a political thriller was him mopping sweat from his brow.

Which he didn’t, which in and of itself could be telling!

218 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:36:26am

Blech. Greenwald is such a hypocrite.

219 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:41:06am

Good article on liespotting with Christie.

salon.com

1. Too much detail regarding unimportant issues.
…
When explaining how he learned of the breach in his office regarding the bridge lane closures, Christie said that he finished his workout at 8:50 and received a call from his director of communication at 8:55. Then he said, “I found this out at 8:50 yesterday morning. By 9:00 this morning, Bridget Kelly was fired. By 7:00 yesterday evening, Bill Stepien was asked to leave my organization.”

This may sound credible, but it begs the follow-up question, where’s the inquiry? Why fire your deputy chief of staff without talking to her further to find out who else might have been involved and what her motive might have been.

220 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:44:23am

re: #219 darthstar

Good article on liespotting with Christie.

salon.com

Christie had to have the “sacrificial lamb”, doncha know.

221 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:44:56am

re: #219 darthstar

Good article on liespotting with Christie.

salon.com

My take

he had the smoking guns (the e-mails) which implicated all involved. He may have in fact “fired” Kelly within minutes but I imagine more than Donald Trumps (in)famous two words were exchanged at that time

222 austin_blue  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:45:48am

re: #204 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Rest in Peace, Ariel Sharon. What a mensch! I have disagreements with many of Likud’s policies, but Sharon had a major-league set of balls on him.

(Always thought that keeping him alive this long was morbid and kind of creepy, though. Eight years? Oofah, I can’t imagine what it was like for his family.)

223 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:46:27am

re: #221 sattv4u2

My take

he had the smoking guns (the e-mails) which implicated all involved. He may have in fact “fired” Kelly but I imagine more than Donald Trumps (in)famous two words were exchanged at that time

He didn’t fire her. He had someone on his staff fire her. He’s not just a bully. He’s a coward.

224 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:47:34am

re: #219 darthstar

Good article on liespotting with Christie.

salon.com

He did say when one reporter asked him that question that he was (IIRC) afraid that Democrats investigating the matter would accuse him of “witness tampering.” That personally says to me that, as “sad” as he claims to have been, the first thing on his mind was how these revelations would affect him and his governorship. Instead of getting to the bottom of what happened, he’s trying to save his own ass.

225 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:48:46am
226 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:49:09am

Pot legalization will bring most of the clandestine operations out of hiding which will alleviate some of the concerns with growing. People growing with high energy lights in their basement to evade police will diminish for example. Opting for greenhouses will probably be the norm.

227 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:51:01am

Almost time to walk the dogs, head to the club, have lunch with the missus, and then sit down to some football.

228 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:52:37am

re: #226 Amory Blaine

Pot legalization will bring most of the clandestine operations out of hiding which will alleviate some of the concerns with growing. People growing with high energy lights in their basement to evade police will diminish for example. Opting for greenhouses will probably be the norm.

UPSIDE

Basements being converted back to their proper usage,, MAN CAVES

I’m going to buy stock in La Z Boy and Brunswick pool tables !!!

229 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:53:08am

re: #227 darthstar

Almost time to walk the dogs, head to the club, have lunch with the missus, and then sit down to some football.

what time do the Vikings play today !?!?!?!
/

230 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:53:14am

This is nice.

231 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:53:39am

re: #222 austin_blue

Rest in Peace, Ariel Sharon. What a mensch! I have disagreements with many of Likud’s policies, but Sharon had a major-league set of balls on him.

(Always thought that keeping him alive this long was morbid and kind of creepy, though. Eight years? Oofah, I can’t imagine what it was like for his family.)

Well, unlike the case of Terry Schaivo there was legitimate reason to doubt he was brain dead. And if we wasn’t brain dead to have ended treatment would have been a cruelty, given the pain dying would have incurred.

232 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:53:47am

re: #229 sattv4u2

what time do the Vikings play today !?!?!?!
/

When you’re the greatest team in the world, you don’t have to win Superbowl rings.

233 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:53:56am

Ariel Sharon finally dies. Moonbats come out of the woodwork.

234 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:54:56am

re: #218 Justanotherhuman

Blech. Greenwald is such a hypocrite.

[Embedded content]

I wonder what his source is. I’d bet $5 the source is anti-Israel.

235 BongCrodny  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:55:07am

New York Daily News - Christie’s Deli

236 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:55:36am

re: #233 Gus

Ariel Sharon finally dies. Moonbats come out of the woodwork.

I didn’t care for him when he was alive, but I won’t say anything about him now that he’s dead. He gets the same break I gave Breitbart.

237 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:55:37am

re: #229 sattv4u2

what time do the Vikings play today !?!?!?!
/

That’s not nice, Sat.

238 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:56:17am

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

That’s not nice, Sat.

Why. Are they playing the Bears today??

239 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 7:58:59am

re: #230 darthstar

No shit eh? Yeah that would be my first career move after backing the winner and being #2 to the Governor that just won a resounding victory. Go behind my boss’ back and pulling some juvenile stunt all by myself so I can chuckle alone while I cover up at night.

240 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:00:14am

re: #233 Gus

Ariel Sharon finally dies. Moonbats come out of the woodwork.

As predictable as a sunset. I better go clean and polish the relevant Troll Hammer, because I’m expecting the Kos, the Guardian and HuffPo to all put out DERP about “Sharon as a father of ‘Israeli Apartheid’”.

241 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:00:44am

re: #238 sattv4u2

Why. Are they playing the Bears today??

SMACK!

242 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:03:29am

re: #234 Dark_Falcon

I wonder what his source is. I’d bet $5 the source is anti-Israel.

I don’t think the NYT is anti-Israel…about half way down, Qibya is mentioned.

nytimes.com

243 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:04:24am

Now everyone’s career is getting screwed up.

244 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:05:07am

Now why would he do that?

245 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:05:38am
246 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:06:36am

re: #244 Amory Blaine

Now why would he do that?

Get to the bottom of this Bridget Kelly scandal, and then you get your nomination.

247 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:08:04am

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

As predictable as a sunset. I better go clean and polish the relevant Troll Hammer, because I’m expecting the Kos, the Guardian and HuffPo to all put out DERP about “Sharon as a father of ‘Israeli Apartheid’”.

Welp. Now the usual suspects are mad at the POTUS for even mentioning Sharon today. Same old, same old.

248 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:08:42am

I admit, I wasn’t a great fan of Sharon’s, but he hasn’t been capable of anything for the last 8 yrs. Let it go.


If there was going to be any “justice” there would have been a long time ago.

249 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:11:48am

re: #248 Justanotherhuman

I admit, I wasn’t a great fan of Sharon’s, but he hasn’t been capable of anything for the last 8 yrs. Let it go.

[Embedded content]


If there was going to be any “justice” there would have been a long time ago.

Honestly, if his brain really was fully functioning the last eight years, that would be worse than any punishment I could imagine.

250 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:12:09am

re: #242 Justanotherhuman

I don’t think the NYT is anti-Israel…about half way down, Qibya is mentioned.

nytimes.com

The NYT isn’t, but I doubt that was Greenwald’s course. He tends to attack rather than read the New york Times, feeling it is full of ‘shills’ and ‘Obots’.

251 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:12:23am
252 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:12:58am

OTOH, Pres Obama shows class and diplomacy, with this statement:

President Obama statement on Ariel Sharon: ‘On behalf of the American people, Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to the family of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and to the people of Israel on the loss of a leader who dedicated his life to the State of Israel. We reaffirm our unshakable commitment to Israel’s security and our appreciation for the enduring friendship between our two countries and our two peoples’ - via @NBCNews

253 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:14:30am

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

The NYT isn’t, but I doubt that was Greenwald’s course. He tends to attack rather than read the New york Times, feeling it is full of ‘shills’ and ‘Obots’.

I think he riffs off Ken Roth (see his tweet) of Human Rights Watch.

254 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:15:04am
255 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:15:20am

re: #252 Justanotherhuman

OTOH, Pres Obama shows class and diplomacy, with this statement:

President Obama statement on Ariel Sharon: ‘On behalf of the American people, Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to the family of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and to the people of Israel on the loss of a leader who dedicated his life to the State of Israel. We reaffirm our unshakable commitment to Israel’s security and our appreciation for the enduring friendship between our two countries and our two peoples’ - via @NBCNews

Smart. It’ll make some moonbats YURP but mainstream people know he was being proper and decent.

256 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:17:56am

re: #251 darthstar

His expertise in law is only eclipsed by his business acumen. Which is to say, he has none.

257 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:18:15am

Found VB’s vehicle…

258 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:18:45am

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Smart. It’ll make some moonbats YURP but mainstream people know he was being proper and decent.

Heck. We give LBJ a pass for Vietnam.

259 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:23:11am

So GG is pulling a page from Glenn Beck’s book of grifting.

260 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:23:32am

re: #258 Gus

Heck. We give LBJ a pass for Vietnam.

Civil rights progress in the US and the War on Poverty allowed that. It’s always a trade-off, isn’t it? I think it was the only reason he didn’t want another term.

261 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:25:16am
262 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:26:05am

re: #260 Justanotherhuman

Civil rights progress in the US and the War on Poverty allowed that. It’s always a trade-off, isn’t it? I think it was the only reason he didn’t want another term.

War is heck and everything’s always shinier on your own side.

263 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:27:02am

re: #258 Gus

Heck. We give LBJ a pass for Vietnam.

That segues into Jonah Goldberg’s riff on Bridgegate. I’m not saying I agree with Goldberg by posting it, instead I’m showing what may become an angle of defense by Christie supporters:

Upside Down and Backwards
But come on! You have to wonder how some of the folks in the media can look at themselves in the mirror. The three network news shows have devoted orders of magnitude more coverage to a story about closed lanes on the George Washington Bridge than they have to the IRS scandal. I know this is not a new insight, but WHAT THE HELL!?

SNIP

But forget about the IRS scandal. Obama’s whole shtick is to pretend that he’s above politics while being rankly political about everything, including his stated desire to “punish our enemies.” By comparison, Chris Christie looks like Diogenes and Cincinnatus rolled into one. From inauguration day forward, this whole crew has behaved like Chicago goons dressed in Olympian garb, and the press has fallen for it.

We don’t need to recycle the whole sordid history of the sequester and the shutdown to remember that this White House sincerely, deliberately, and with malice aforethought sought to make things as painful as possible for millions of Americans. Traffic cones on the George Washington Bridge are a stain on the honor of New Jersey. (Stop laughing!) But deliberately pulling air-traffic controllers to screw with millions of people is just fine? Shafting World War II vets and vacationing families at National Parks is something only crazy right-wingers on Twitter would have a problem with? And keep in mind, it is at least plausible Christie didn’t know what his staff was doing. It is entirely implausible that the president didn’t know about the WWII memorial closure, after the news appeared in the president’s daily briefing (a.k.a. the New York Times).

I’d say I just don’t get it, but I do get it. For the mainstream media, skepticism comes naturally when a Republican is in the crosshairs. It comes reluctantly, slowly, and painfully — if at all — when it’s a Democrat.

264 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:27:03am

re: #259 darthstar

So GG is pulling a page from Glenn Beck’s book of grifting.

[Embedded content]

He’s going back to his earlier days…

“In 2002 Greenwald was offered the partnership in a consulting company, Master Notions Inc., by a friend, Jason Buchtel. The pornographic website, owned by Peter Haas, was a client of Master Notions. Greenwald and Buchtel agreed to help Haas’s site in return for 50% of the profits. A legal disagreement with Haas ensued over the profits from his site, and the establishment of a competing website by Buchtel and Greenwald. The case was resolved in 2004.[36]

“The Internal Revenue Service and New York City and state have open judgments and liens against Greenwald dating from his law practice. The New York County Clerk’s office shows Greenwald has $126,000 in open judgments and liens, although Greenwald claims he believes he paid those. The Internal Revenue Service has an $85,000 lien against him. In 2013 Greenwald said “We’re negotiating over payment plans.” [36]

en.wikipedia.org

265 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:29:25am

re: #261 Gus

The FNC ‘story’, condensed into one sentence: “Beware of Reefer Madness!!1”

266 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:31:41am

This can’t end well…

267 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:32:12am

And now for your morning FCC-recommended YouTube cat and dog video:

Youtube Video

My takeaway: Adult dogs like kittens fairly well, but adult cats feel harassed by puppies.

268 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:32:46am

re: #262 Gus

War is heck and everything’s always shinier on your own side.

To be fair, though, the US involvement in Vietnam went back to 1950 when Truman authorized $15 million in military aid to the French; Vietnam was always part of the “Domino Theory” and it was the same year that the ROC and the Soviet Union recognized Ho Chi Minh and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

269 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:33:23am

re: #266 Backwoods_Sleuth

This can’t end well…

[Embedded content]

I hope the puppy’s owners have a salt shaker handy.

270 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:34:58am

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

That segues into Jonah Goldberg’s riff on Bridgegate. I’m not saying I agree with Goldberg by posting it, instead I’m showing what may become an angle of defense by Christie supporters:

SNIP

We’ve heard that shit since Wednesday, cranked up to 11 on Thursday, and it’s still as asinine today.

271 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:35:06am

re: #259 darthstar

So GG is pulling a page from Glenn Beck’s book of grifting.

[Embedded content]

So any odd billionaire or moonbat commoner donating to Greenwald’s charity gets a tax break?

272 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:35:12am

re: #268 Justanotherhuman

To be fair, though, the US involvement in Vietnam went back to 1950 when Truman authorized $15 million in military aid to the French; Vietnam was always part of the “Domino Theory” and it was the same year that the ROC and the Soviet Union recognized Ho Chi Minh and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

Israel and Sharon also had their own rationales. What makes ours more pure?

273 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:35:54am

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

I hope the puppy’s owners have a salt shaker handy.

gonna need a LOT of salt….

274 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:38:21am

re: #272 Gus

Israel and Sharon also had their own rationales. What makes ours more pure?

That’s not what I said. I was just giving an historical timeline.

I was absolutely against the Vietnam War and protested against it.

275 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:38:28am

Not sure where one would sit on this thing (or, more precisely, I don’t think I want to know).

276 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:41:14am

re: #274 Justanotherhuman

That’s not what I said. I was just giving an historical timeline.

I was absolutely against the Vietnam War and protested against it.

OK. Not me. Well, I was a kid at the time and wanted to be fighter pilot and drop lots of bombs in Viet Nam. Never happened. Bummer.

277 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:41:24am

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

Not sure where one would sit on this thing (or, more precisely, I don’t think I want to know).

[Embedded content]

Personally, I feel sorry for the poor bastard riding that when he comes under fire.

278 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:44:21am

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

Not sure where one would sit on this thing (or, more precisely, I don’t think I want to know).

[Embedded content]

Ah…per wiki:

The scooters would be parachute-dropped in pairs, accompanied by a two-man team. The gun was carried on one scooter, while the ammunition was loaded on the other. Due to the lack of any kind of aiming devices the recoilless rifle was never designed to be fired from the scooter, the gun was mounted on a tripod which was also carried by the scooter, before being fired.

279 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:44:54am

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

That’s not nice, Sat.

Hey, maybe they’ll get lucky and get to draft Johnny Manziel and really screw the Vikings team up… ;)

280 austin_blue  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:45:53am

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

That segues into Jonah Goldberg’s riff on Bridgegate. I’m not saying I agree with Goldberg by posting it, instead I’m showing what may become an angle of defense by Christie supporters:

SNIP

So Christie (or his staff…whatever..) do really stupid things and,

IT’S OBAMA’S FAULT!!!

That’s a defense? Really? Seems to me that’s just the usual commentary from the usual suspects.

“Don’t look at that elephant! Benghazi!!”

281 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:48:38am

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

Not sure where one would sit on this thing (or, more precisely, I don’t think I want to know).

[Embedded content]

I found video:

Youtube Video

282 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:49:30am

re: #280 austin_blue

So Christie (or his staff…whatever..) do really stupid things and,

IT’S OBAMA’S FAULT!!!

That’s a defense? Really? Seems to me that’s just the usual commentary from the usual suspects.

“Don’t look at that elephant! Benghazi!!”

It’s really their only defense at this point, or rather it’s the only defense of those wingnuts who actually want to save Christie’s ass. The other half of them are cackling hysterically because they hate the “RINO” and want him to go down in flames so that they might have one of their “pure” candidates win the GOP nomination in ‘16.

283 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:50:47am

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

Not sure where one would sit on this thing (or, more precisely, I don’t think I want to know).

[Embedded content]

That was one of the weirder response to the need for paratroops to have an organic anti-tank capability.

It may also have been seen favorably because unlike one-shot anti-tank weapons like the M72, the Vespa TAP could also fire High Explosive rounds. Despite the need for airborne troops to have an anti-tank capability, the weapons built to meet such needs have always ended up firing more high-explosive shells than anti-tank shells.

Deployed in the narrow streets of Europe, such a vehicle might also have had appeal for hit and run attacks, especially against Soviet supply columns in the event the Cold War turned hot.

284 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:50:49am

re: #280 austin_blue

So Christie (or his staff…whatever..) do really stupid things and,

IT’S OBAMA’S FAULT!!!

That’s a defense? Really? Seems to me that’s just the usual commentary from the usual suspects.

“Don’t look at that elephant! Benghazi!!”

Many conservatives enjoy bragging that they have the number one cable news outlet (by far and for a long time now), the number one national newspaper and the top 5 (or more) programs on radio…but still never miss an opportunity to chide “the media” for not behaving as they would like!

285 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:55:15am

Luxury merchant Neiman Marcus confirms thieves may have stolen customers’ credit and debit card information and made unauthorized charges over the holiday season - @AP

Eh. “Luxury”. Not moi…

286 makeitstop  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:55:19am

re: #284 bratwurst

Many conservatives enjoy bragging that they have the number one cable news outlet (by far and for a long time now), the number one national newspaper and the top 5 (or more) programs on radio…but still never miss an opportunity to chide “the media” for not behaving as they would like!

It’s almost funny how they can claim that none of their pet scandals get any coverage at all from ‘the media’ after they’ve heard hours of air time devoted to said pet scandals by Fox and an army of radio screamers.

Just like their politicians are somehow not part of ‘Washington DC,’ their many many broadcast outlets are somehow not part of ‘the media.’

287 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:56:04am

re: #282 Targetpractice

they might have one of their “pure” candidates

I never understood the rationale on either side when they don’t get ‘their” “pure candidate” in the primary, then sit out the general election to punish “them” for not picking their person

So they
A.) don’t get the candidate they want
then
B.) don’t vote for the person that might align with them at least on 50% of the issues
resulting in
C.) having someone that they agree with on less than 25% of things getting elected

288 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:56:34am

re: #282 Targetpractice

An exception can be made for Andrew C. McCarthy, who digs into Christie’s history on this kind of tactic and seems legitimately angry on basis of wrongdoing, not politics:

After swiftly dismissing a top official in his administration, Chris Christie was characteristically caustic when pressed by the press for the lesson to be drawn from the scandal: “Don’t lie to the governor.”

But that was then — three years ago. This week, the raging bull turned sad puppy for two hours of bravura contrition after cashiering yet another top aide who, he says, lied to him. It is a different time, and this is a very different scandal. Yet, I can’t help suspecting it’s the same old Christie.

Back in 2010, it was Bret Schundler, Christie’s education chief, who was shown the door after purportedly deceiving the boss. The controversy that led to Schundler’s abrupt termination was considerably drier than the “Bridgegate” scandal currently engulfing the governor — the former was just run-of-the-mill governmental bungling, as the Bergen Record relates.

New Jersey had failed to qualify for federal “Race to the Top” education funds, falling a measly three points short of the 500-point threshold prescribed by an abstruse Washington formula. The amount of money involved was enormous, $400 million. But in a country where trillion is the new billion, that’s a few digits shy of grabbing the public’s attention. Plus, Christie — just hitting his stride, his eccentric brand of tough-guy bipartisanship not yet stale — was not then a national figure. So the fact that the Garden State lost out because its application omitted two years of budget data (a five-point penalty!) was big news in Trenton, but nowhere else.

289 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 8:58:11am

re: #285 Justanotherhuman

Luxury merchant Neiman Marcus confirms thieves may have stolen customers’ credit and debit card information and made unauthorized charges over the holiday season - @AP

Eh. “Luxury”. Not moi…

Like TARGET (et al), you don’t have to shop at Neiman Marcus to use “their” credit/ debit VISA card

I have a TARGET VISA card. I haven’t bought anything in TARGET in probably 2+ years,,, but I have used that card on occasion since that time

290 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:00:37am

re: #289 sattv4u2

Like TARGET (et al), you don’t have to shop at Neiman Marcus to use “their” credit/ debit VISA card

I have a TARGET VISA card. I haven’t bought anything in TARGET in probably 2+ years,,, but I have used that card on occasion since that time

I have no credit cards at all. Just a check, or debit, card. That’s enough. What I was getting at was actually shopping at Neiman Marcus. I don’t do a lot of shopping, but when I do, it’s usually cash.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:00:44am

re: #287 sattv4u2

they might have one of their “pure” candidates

I never understood the rationale on either side when they don’t get ‘their” “pure candidate” in the primary, then sit out the general election to punish “them” for not picking their person

So they
A.) don’t get the candidate they want
then
B.) don’t vote for the person that might align with them at least on 50% of the issues
resulting in
C.) having someone that they agree with on less than 25% of things getting elected

People like that don’t think as you and I do, Sat. For them protecting their purity is the most important thing and compromise is treated as a species of treason. I think part of it is also that they don’t really want even miniscule responsibility for moving things in the right direction, because then they’d have to actually own that responsibility for legislation and would face blame what things subsequently went wrong (as they always do). they think it better to sit on the sidelines and crap.

292 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:02:35am

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

think as you and I do,

ummm,,,,,,, nuh uh!!!!

293 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:03:00am

re: #288 Dark_Falcon

An exception can be made for Andrew C. McCarthy, who digs into Christie’s history on this kind of tactic and seems legitimately angry on basis of wrongdoing, not politics:

In those same pages a few years ago, he defended Pamela Geller. Has he ever retracted? Robert Spencer’s blog still cites McCarthy calling the Poison Dwarf, “America’s most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”

He’s not a good source for anything, IMHO.

294 BongCrodny  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:06:32am

re: #284 bratwurst

Many conservatives enjoy bragging that they have the number one cable news outlet (by far and for a long time now), the number one national newspaper and the top 5 (or more) programs on radio…but still never miss an opportunity to chide “the media” for not behaving as they would like!

The networks devoted time to a scandal involving the biggest city in the United States?

NO FUCKING WAY!

I’m a little tired of tools like Goldberg claiming “the media” does nothing when it comes to Democrats.

I’m sure Eliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner, James Traficant, William Jefferson, Robert Menendez, “Rowdy” Roddy Blago and Edwin Edwards would agree.

295 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:07:03am

re: #292 sattv4u2

think as you and I do,

ummm,,,,,,, nuh uh!!!!

Please excuse my presumption. I meant it only to mean that we both seem to understand the practicalities and we work from there. i apologize if I offended.

296 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:07:45am

re: #294 BongCrodny

The networks devoted time to a scandal involving the biggest city in the United States?

NO FUCKING WAY!

I’m a little tired of tools like Goldberg claiming “the media” does nothing when it comes to Democrats.

I’m sure Eliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner, James Traficant, William Jefferson, Robert Menendez, “Rowdy” Roddy Blago and Edwin Edwards would agree.

Upding for the Blago zinger.

297 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:07:58am

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Please excuse my presumption. I meant it only to mean that we both seem to understand the practicalities and we work from there. i apologize if I offended.

was /// ing

298 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:09:45am

re: #294 BongCrodny

“the media” does nothing when it comes to Democrats.
I’m sure Eliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner, James Traficant, William Jefferson, Robert Menendez, “Rowdy” Roddy Blago and Edwin Edwards would agree.

They were all too hard to ignore!!!

(I’m going straight to hell for that one)

299 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:09:56am

re: #223 darthstar

He didn’t fire her. He had someone on his staff fire her. He’s not just a bully. He’s a coward.

I would say that bully and coward always go hand in hand…and liar is in there too.

And don’t forget yer math…add all three up and you get massive asshole.

300 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:13:45am

As former Yankee great and announcer Phil Rizzuto would say

HOLY COW

Alex Rodriguez gets SLAMMED! Arbitrator hits Yankees slugger with full-season ban, plus postseason

Read more: nydailynews.com

301 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:17:32am

Sometimes, the jokes just write themselves!!!

Man Dressed As ‘Toy Story’ Character WOODY Arrested In Times Square On Sex Abuse Charges

newyork.cbslocal.com

302 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:18:55am

re: #301 sattv4u2

Sometimes, the jokes just write themselves!!!

Man Dressed As ‘Toy Story’ Character WOODY Arrested In Times Square On Sex Abuse Charges

newyork.cbslocal.com

The only thing that would have perfected that story is if it had been Anthony Weiner.

303 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:26:12am

re: #294 BongCrodny

Or Jon Corzine (for the car wreck that nearly killed him) and the later MF Global scandal; Marion Barry; Jim McGreevey (scandal in putting unqualified hack at homeland security post); Solomon Dwek scandal hitting dozen NJ Dem politicians; Tony Mack in Trenton; Sharpe James in Newark; etc.

Yeah, lots of Democrats have escaped media attention.

Would this story have the same attention if it were the governor of say Wyoming? Probably not - because the GWB handles about 275,000 vehicles daily, which is almost half the population of Wyoming. It’s a big deal because it’s in the backyard of the nation’s biggest city and media hub. If you succeed here, you succeed anywhere, but if you mess up - no one is going to forget it.

Ever.

304 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:29:00am

Building the tunnel would help prevent such gridlock on the bridge.

305 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:32:19am

re: #303 lawhawk

Or Jon Corzine (for the car wreck that nearly killed him) and the later MF Global scandal; Marion Barry; Jim McGreevey (scandal in putting unqualified hack at homeland security post); Solomon Dwek scandal hitting dozen NJ Dem politicians; Tony Mack in Trenton; Sharpe James in Newark; etc.

Yeah, lots of Democrats have escaped media attention.

Would this story have the same attention if it were the governor of say Wyoming? Probably not - because the GWB handles about 275,000 vehicles daily, which is almost half the population of Wyoming. It’s a big deal because it’s in the backyard of the nation’s biggest city and media hub. If you succeed here, you succeed anywhere, but if you mess up - no one is going to forget it.

Ever.

You know what else got zero media coverage? No one talked about the web site for Obamacare not working, No one.

306 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:34:09am

Really, how much coverage has this story gotten outside of NJ? I remember it only causing a blip on the national radar last month, and it lasted all of 2-3 days, long enough for Christie to descend from upon high and declare that he was not involved and the press was wasting their time.

307 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:34:50am

Hmmm,,,,,,, it’s stopped raining

If I go get ready now, maybe I can sneak in 9 holes o’ golf on my way in to work !!

hmmmmmmmmmmm

308 calochortus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:35:28am

So, I wandered over to RedState. In his musings about legalizing pot, Erick is actually arguing that “morals” legislation is far more important for the middle and lower classes than the “elite”.

Largely, the same class of people now most invested in and vocal about drug legalization in the United States are the same who advocated the loosening of sexual mores during the sexual revolution of the late 1960s and early ’70s. The white, upper income, educated elites had a lot invested in breaking down social mores in their pursuit of unchecked and unbridled hedonism.

Nevermind the silly idea that the wealthy want to break down the moral fabric of the country, apparently only the misbehavior of the lower classes has consequences for society.

Now add the legalization of drugs to the mix. Gone may be the crime and gangs funded on the drug trade. Maybe. That is not a given. But young men and women in loosened social mores now with more readily available drugs might not turn out so well beneath the upper incomes. Upstairs and downstairs in the American manor house may behave largely the same, but the upstairs lords and ladies will have a harder time ignoring the blight their pursuit of hedonism has caused downstairs.

Where does he get this stuff? Does he have an archive of Great Ideas from 1902?

309 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:37:04am

re: #308 calochortus

So, I wandered over to RedState. In his musings about legalizing pot, Erick is actually arguing that “morals” legislation is far more important for the middle and lower classes than the “elite”.

Nevermind the silly idea that the wealthy want to break down the moral fabric of the country, apparently only the misbehavior of the lower classes has consequences for society.

Where does he get this stuff? Does he have an archive of Great Ideas from 1902?

There are many a time I think Erick missed his calling as a minister.

310 becominginvisible  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:37:53am

re: #82 allegro


“I think your concerns are quite unfounded since I believe the marijuana sold in shops now is grown mostly hydroponically - and in the US probably locally - to ensure quality. There is no need to go kill anyone for this easily grown plant.”

Your ignorance is noted. It is an easily grown plant. If you are growing it for hemp used in rope. If you are growing it to use as a drug it has very specific nutrition requirements and needs warmth, very bright light and a lot of air movement (as in fans on high or a windy area). I think it was alternet that did several pieces on how deadly growing cannabis for getting high is in the U.S. The growers clear land in National or State parks/forests and are quite willing to shoot anyone who comes near their growing area, even if it is someone who finds the grow area by accident. The growers hire mostly immigrants to pick and carry the harvest out of the growing area. There was even an article on how to identify the growing areas on google maps to make sure your hiking trip doesn’t get you killed.

The only way ‘to ensure quality’ is to test for the amount of chemicals . Growing anything hydroponically is not inexpensive or easy. A lot of electricity for the fans, lights, heating and pumps. As well as checking the system several times a day, replacing the nutrient solution at least every few days. Even in areas of bright sunlight the lighting must be augmented to ensure short growth and high chemical content. I was taught hydroponics and light gardening over 30 years ago by someone who grew tomatoes and cucumbers hydroponically (and a few cannabis plants for himself). The lighting options have changed over time and the price of electricity is much higher now. I have a light garden in my living room every winter. (9’ bay tree, 8’ myrtus communis, assorted rosemary bushes, too many jasmine plants. 1 large fan, florescent lights, 3 timers.)

Sorry I didn’t read though this partly sorry lot of comments before posting. The bullying of allegro, jaunte, HappyWarrior, blueraven and probably other of SteveMcGazi is the self-righteous crap I expect to see on alternet. You were all probably too stoned to realize how ignorant you look. Production costs-electricity, chemicals, growing materials are different in the U.S. from Holland. Prohibiting anything will have some people using it just because they shouldn’t. There isn’t a realistic straight comparison of alcohol, tobacco, herbs and pharmaceutical drugs. You don’t know how its grown, where it comes from, what makes it a drug. You assume because you get it from someone you know who doesn’t look like they would hurt anyone that your pot is benign. It isn’t.

Cannabis, even in very small amounts has always given me at the very least a screaming head ache. Between my neighborhood dealers, who retaliate against anyone who doesn’t buy from them, and the stoner brigade on this thread I’ve gone from legalize it to make it a pharmaceutical and ban it from home use.

311 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:38:21am

re: #308 calochortus

He should get on his knees and pray. Self flagellation may prevent the wrath.

312 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:38:45am

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Please excuse my presumption. I meant it only to mean that we both seem to understand the practicalities and we work from there. i apologize if I offended.

Honestly, I can’t tell you two apart.

313 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:39:43am

re: #304 Amory Blaine

There are more than a few people who think Christie’s decision to kill the ARC was an even bigger hit with gridlock in the region’s future, but I still think that was the right decision.

It was a poorly conceived plan that put a feckless agency in charge - NJ Transit - that flooded out its rail fleet during Sandy and for which no one was fired despite an emergency action plan that The Record requested in FOIA that indicated that the agency should move trains to higher ground. It would expand the NJ Transit fiefdom to be sure, but it doesn’t allow through-running trains and more efficient track usage. But since it was funded, people are saying that was better than nothing.

A badly designed program is a badly designed one, even if it is funded.

The Gateway project is better, and would vastly improve rail traffic flow into Manhattan with better connections across the NEC. That’s what’s needed - not expanding the NJ Transit fiefdom that would end up falling short on actual capacity.

That plus NJ Transit has shown itself incapable of controlling costs - the Secaucus transfer cost 5x as much as originally planned, and the agency spent more this past year to expand the platforms for the Super Bowl - something that should have been in place when built (and when originally built, there was no parking, so ridership was a fraction of the projections). It’s only now coming up to the projections that the agency originally held more than a decade after they thought they would.

I have few good things to say about NJ Transit in that regard (capital plans and rail/maintenance).

314 calochortus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:40:40am

re: #309 Targetpractice

There are many a time I think Erick missed his calling as a minister.

I think he would be flattered judging from some of his religiously leaning posts.

Another thought:
Why is it that when the wealthy are busy screwing the poor they are thought to be wealthy because of hard work, intelligence and personal virtue, but when a wealthy person advocates for the poor the are a “trust fund baby” who never worked a day in their life?

315 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:41:03am

re: #310 becominginvisible

Hydroponic growing does not require lights. It can be grown in greenhouses. Also, prohibition “forces” growers to be creative. There will be no will to grow on federal land if there was legalization.

316 BongCrodny  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:41:09am

re: #301 sattv4u2

Sometimes, the jokes just write themselves!!!

Man Dressed As ‘Toy Story’ Character WOODY Arrested In Times Square On Sex Abuse Charges

newyork.cbslocal.com

In the newspaper business, they call that hard news.

317 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:42:40am

re: #316 BongCrodny

In the newspaper business, they call that hard news.

*rimshot*

318 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:44:45am

re: #313 lawhawk

Must Concur. I’m a fan of public rail transit (Metra is a good bit better than a private car for getting to and from downtown Chicago during the weekday rush hours), but the plan Christie killed was a boondoggle-in-waiting.

319 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:44:58am

re: #312 darthstar

Honestly, I can’t tell you two apart.

It’s easy, actually

I’m the one that roots for the team that’s been to the Super Bowl 5 times in the last 10 years,,, winning 3 of those

320 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:46:56am

re: #312 darthstar

Honestly, I can’t tell you two apart.

Satt’s the one who has to drive thousands of miles between work, home and the grocery store.

321 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:47:46am

re: #320 jaunte

Satt’s the one who has to drive thousands of miles between work, home and the grocery store.

Cost me twice as much in gas than for the item I needed

322 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:47:49am

re: #314 calochortus

I think he would be flattered judging from some of his religiously leaning posts.

Another thought:
Why is it that when the wealthy are busy screwing the poor they are thought to be wealthy because of hard work, intelligence and personal virtue, but when a wealthy person advocates for the poor the are a “trust fund baby” who never worked a day in their life?

Same reason they despise guys like Sinegal and Buffett for suggesting that the best way to grow the economy is paying people a decent wage and taxing the rich more, because they love the rich right up until the rich start poking holes in their ideology.

323 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:49:55am

re: #319 sattv4u2

It’s easy, actually

I’m the one that roots for the team that’s been to the Super Bowl 5 times in the last 10 years,,, winning 3 of those

Do you think the Patriots will get to the Super Bowl again this year?

324 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:50:39am

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

I hope the puppy’s owners have a salt shaker handy.

What’s up with the salt shaker? I have no idea…educate me please.

325 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:51:59am

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

Do you think the Patriots will get to the Super Bowl again this year?

No. I know all teams have them but they have too many injuries to key players, and all below will NOT play the rest of the year
3 out of their 4 best linebackers
1 of their starting cornerbacks
3 out of 4 of their best defensive linemen
2 of their starting offensive linemen
THE best tight end in the business

326 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:54:42am

re: #325 sattv4u2

Did you get your soy sauce?

327 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:54:44am

re: #324 ObserverArt

What’s up with the salt shaker? I have no idea…educate me please.

Salt.

Gigantic snail.

Salt kills snails and slugs.

328 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:55:10am

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

re: #325 sattv4u2

No. I know all teams have them but they have too many injuries to key players, and all below will NOT play the rest of the year
3 out of their 4 best linebackers
1 of their starting cornerbacks
3 out of 4 of their best defensive linemen
2 of their starting offensive linemen
THE best tight end in the business

That stated… At home today against the Colts,,, I can see them win that
IF San Diego beats the Broncos, then the Pats get to play home again next week,,, so again, a chance,. Even if they have to go to Denver next week, they already beat the Broncos this year and Belichick does seem to be in Peytons head

329 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:55:28am

re: #324 ObserverArt

What’s up with the salt shaker? I have no idea…educate me please.

Put salt on the snail while its out of its shell and it shrivels.

330 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:55:35am

re: #326 Amory Blaine

Did you get your soy sauce?

Yup

Meal was dEElish, but thanks for the suggestions

331 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:56:42am

Keep a well stocked pantry!!

*Wag of the finger

332 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:57:03am

re: #310 becominginvisible

Cannabis, even in very small amounts has always given me at the very least a screaming head ache.

Does this account for the rude tone and disregard for facts throughout your comment?

333 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:57:46am

re: #331 Amory Blaine

Keep a well stocked pantry!!

*Wag of the finger

Usually do. I just haven’t gone and done my BIG restocking grocery shopping in awhile

334 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:59:33am

re: #333 sattv4u2

I just received 200 rolls of TP from Amazon.

335 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:59:56am

re: #332 wrenchwench

Does this account for the rude tone and disregard for facts throughout your comment?

I scrolled past that comment but thanks for calling attention to it so that I could give it the downding it merited. [sarc]”Stoner brigade”, indeed![/sarc]

336 calochortus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:00:30am

Time to head off to my book club where we will discuss how happy we are to live in the Bay Area suburbs rather than North Korea (this month’s book: Nothing to Envy)

337 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:00:47am

re: #334 Amory Blaine

I just received 200 rolls of TP from Amazon.

Alright, ‘fess up: Which Romney mansion were you planning to TP?

338 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:00:48am

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

I forgot already!!

339 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:01:23am

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

I scrolled past that comment but thanks for calling attention to it so that I could give it the downding it merited. “Stoner brigade”, indeed!

Thanks. Now would you care to comment on my comment to you re: A. McCarthy?

340 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:02:07am

Stoner brigade?

341 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:02:22am

re: #310 becominginvisible

lolwut

SteveMcGazi accuses us all of having “blood on our hands” and we were the bullies? His argument was all about personal attacks, not reasoned discussion.

342 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:03:54am

re: #340 Gus

Stoner brigade?

Yup.

You were all probably too stoned to realize how ignorant you look.

343 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:04:06am

re: #339 wrenchwench

Thanks. Now would you care to comment on my comment to you re: A. McCarthy?

He won’t retract what he said about Pam Geller years ago because readers wouldn’t like it. I seriously doubt he’ll praise her or Robert Spencer again, but from McCarthy’s perspective its more prudent to say nothing and if needed to drop the problem comments down the memory hole.

344 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:09am

re: #342 wrenchwench

Yup.

Yeah man. Like wake and bake man. I’m just like… what were we talking about man? //

345 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:14am

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

He won’t retract what he said about Pam Geller years ago because readers wouldn’t like it. I seriously doubt he’ll praise her or Robert Spencer again, but from McCarthy’s perspective its more prudent to say nothing and if needed to drop the problem comments down the memory hole.

And why do you consider him comment-worthy, with that character flaw (putting it kindly) in mind?

346 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:33am

re: #341 blueraven

lolwut

SteveMcGazi accuses us all of having “blood on our hands” and we were the bullies? His argument was all about personal attacks, not reasoned discussion.

Not only bullies, but ignorant, stoned, and self-righteous, by golly! LOL

347 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:38am

re: #344 Gus

Have you ever really looked at your hand, man?

348 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:42am

re: #340 Gus

Stoner brigade?

if we were Neo-Confederates he’d have called us the Stonewall Brigade.

/Civil War humor

349 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:05:54am

The one positive thing gleaned from the post, looks like those neighborhood dealers are going to have to get real jobs. Ha!!

350 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:06:40am

re: #347 jaunte

Have you ever really looked at your hand, man?

The colors!

351 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:06:54am

re: #325 sattv4u2

Excuses, excuses.

352 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:06:54am

re: #347 jaunte

Have you ever really looked at your hand, man?

Yeah man. Like I was looking at my hand man and thinking to myself, wow, what an incredible piece of human biological perfection. Like wow man… what were we talking about man? //

353 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:07:10am

I have blood on my joint!

354 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:07:46am

re: #345 wrenchwench

And why do you consider him comment-worthy, with that character flaw (putting it kindly) in mind?

I don’t view it as a character flaw. To me that’s just the way pundits behave.

355 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:08:00am

re: #353 Amory Blaine

I have blood on my joint!

I would seek medical attention!

356 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:08:20am

re: #310 becominginvisible

I was taught hydroponics and light gardening over 30 years ago by someone who grew tomatoes and cucumbers hydroponically (and a few cannabis plants for himself). The lighting options have changed over time and the price of electricity is much higher now. I have a light garden in my living room every winter. (9’ bay tree, 8’ myrtus communis, assorted rosemary bushes, too many jasmine plants. 1 large fan, florescent lights, 3 timers.)

Hydroponic techniques now are vastly improved over whatever someone taught you over 30 years ago.
Comparing a commercial hydroponic operation of today to a living room light garden is preposterous.

Even so, I will concede that hydroponic tomatoes are still crap.

357 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:08:28am

Whoa I’m getting the munchies - where are the m&ms?

358 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:08:52am

Stoner brigade. Isn’t that the Taliban? //

359 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:09:03am

My favorite pot-related saying from my youth, which slipped out during an exceptionally strong buzz is, “Did what it came for.” Became a mantra amongst my friends.

360 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:09:13am

re: #324 ObserverArt

What’s up with the salt shaker? I have no idea…educate me please.

re: #327 Dr Lizardo

Salt.

Gigantic snail.

Salt kills snails and slugs.

Thanks. Did not know that. I do know that salt can kill a patch of grass/weeds and leave it barren for some time. I’ve used it to KO small tree stumps that are stuck in a fence and the like. Cut the funky tree, bore a hole in the stump…poor in some salt…wait…in time, no more stump.

I am always amazed what simple household products can do. Like white vinegar, baking soda, salt, coke…etc.

361 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:09:20am

re: #357 allegro

Whoa I’m getting the munchies - where are the m&ms?

I eated them.

362 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:10:33am

re: #354 Dark_Falcon

I don’t view it as a character flaw. To me that’s just the way pundits behave.

To me: Not any pundit worth reading and quoting. Why, I know of a person or two who used to say nice things about Pam and the Poison Dwarf, but when they realized how hateful and evil they are, they denounced them roundly, loudly, repeatedly, and consistently, even at great cost personally. That is a pundit worth citing.

363 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:10:35am

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

I eated them.

Damn you!

364 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:11:09am

re: #360 ObserverArt

It’s a battle in the north. Every spring I have grass die off around the edges of my walk because of salting. then because I am stoned and neglectful, crabgrass takes root and compounds my problems. The man always keeping me down.

365 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:11:11am

Fuck getting stoned. I rather go drinking and driving! //

366 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:12:22am

re: #338 Amory Blaine

I forgot already!!

Forgot what? Uh…got any cookies?

367 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:12:48am
368 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:12:56am

Whatever. I guess Milton Friedman was part of the stoner brigade too.

369 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:13:12am

re: #357 allegro

Whoa I’m getting the munchies - where are the m&ms?

Bully. Hands off my w&ws!

370 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:13:54am

Where am I? //

371 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:14:47am

I have an idea. Let’s get really drunk and throw beer cans at the opposing football team! //

372 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:15:20am

re: #371 Gus

Now that sound patriotic. USA! USA!

373 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:15:21am

re: #347 jaunte

Have you ever really looked at your hand, man?

Only when I have some windowpane!

374 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:15:45am

re: #369 wrenchwench

Bully. Hands off my w&ws!

Cuz I gots blood on them?

375 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:15:45am

re: #357 allegro

Whoa I’m getting the munchies - where are the m&ms?

Here, have a brownie!

376 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:16:15am

Libertarian West Virginia’s pretty fucked right now. But the free market will fix it. And some socialist relief. Of course, coal’s still clean.

377 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:16:42am

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

if we were Neo-Confederates he’d have called us the Stonewall Brigade.

/Civil War humor

That could also be a gay reference…watch it buddy.

/

378 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:16:55am

re: #370 Gus

Where am I? //

Thunderdome. 2 joints go in, no joints come out.

379 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:16:57am

re: #376 darthstar

Libertarian West Virginia’s pretty fucked right now. But the free market will fix it. And some socialist relief. Of course, coal’s still clean.

No.

380 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:17:34am

re: #374 allegro

Cuz I gots blood on them?

I suppose I should read up and see what you did, but when you were called a bully, I figured something was up. Mainly, the reading on my bullshitometer.

381 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:17:36am

re: #351 darthstar

Excuses, excuses.

Again,, WHAT time do the Vikings play this weekend??

382 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:17:51am

re: #376 darthstar

Libertarian West Virginia’s pretty fucked right now. But the free market will fix it. And some socialist relief. Of course, coal’s still clean.

But what is really important is if the chemical spill is poisoning the largest cash crop in WV: the marijuana!

383 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:18:23am

re: #370 Gus

Where am I? //

384 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:18:41am

Freedom Industries in West Virginia is regulated in large part by the EPA and other federal agencies. Accidents happen. They happen in West Virginia, California, New York, etc.

385 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:19:05am

re: #367 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Hey, those aren’t tanker trucks…. [eyes widen]

ITS A TRAP!!1 THOSE TRUCKERS ARE FOR ROUNDING UP THE REAL AMERICANS OF WEST VIRGINIA FOR TRANSPORT TO FEMA CAMPS!!!11

386 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:19:57am

re: #384 Gus

Freedom Industries in West Virginia is regulated in large part by the EPA and other federal agencies. Accidents happen. They happen in West Virginia, California, New York, etc.

Freedom Industries was supposed to “self report” the spill (that’s how it’s regulated in WV).
It didn’t do that.

387 Gus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:20:18am

Bye.

388 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:20:19am

And on that note,,,, if I get cracking right now,, I WILL be able to squeeze in 9 holes o’golf on my way to work (depending on course conditions, naturally)

(((was pouring from about 1 a.m. till about 10))

389 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:21:23am

re: #380 wrenchwench

I suppose I should read up and see what you did, but when you were called a bully, I figured something was up. Mainly, the reading on my bullshitometer.

We were presenting reasoned arguments to support the legalization of marijuana. To a couple of people here that is called bullying… and lots more entertaining descriptions of our characters!

390 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:21:43am

re: #378 Amory Blaine

Thunderdome. 2 joints go in, no joints come out.

The Colt Peacemaker Pot and Tobacco Shop: Where all kinds of cigarettes get smoked.

Edited.

391 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:22:00am

re: #384 Gus

Freedom Industries in West Virginia is regulated in large part by the EPA and other federal agencies. Accidents happen. They happen in West Virginia, California, New York, etc.

True enough
This one is particularly tough on the families and businesses. Cant imagine no tap water use at all.
It is hard enough under a “boil water” alert.

392 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:23:41am

Medical marijuana bill in Kentucky:

393 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:23:57am

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

394 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:24:52am

re: #393 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Go right ahead with that plan, Big Mo.

395 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:25:55am

H2Obama water has mind controlling flouride in it!!

396 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:26:14am

Photobombed by your own shadow…

397 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:28:19am

re: #395 Amory Blaine

H2Obama water has mind controlling flouride in it!!

BigMo just needs to wrap those water bottles in tinfoil…

398 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:28:39am

re: #396 wrenchwench

Photobombed by your own shadow…

[Embedded content]

When your shadows are having more fun than you are.

399 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:30:19am

Seriously, though, we have to expect the conspiracists to latch onto this story. Fox News will play it straight if they say anything about it, but the tinfoil hat crowd is going to find some loony theory about how the spill was a ‘plot’ of some kind.

400 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:30:25am

heh….

401 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:31:39am

re: #396 wrenchwench

Photobombed by your own shadow…

[Embedded content]

Her shadow is getting fucked by his shadow! She’s a slut!!1

/Bryan Fischer (not kidding)

402 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:33:27am

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

Seriously, though, we have to expect the conspiracists to latch onto this story. Fox News will play it straight if they say anything about it, but the tinfoil hat crowd is going to find some loony theory about how the spill was a ‘plot’ of some kind.

FALSE FLAG!!11!! FALSE FLAG!!!11!!

403 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:34:55am

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

It seems like a simple story: it always seems cheaper to let things slide until an accident happens.

404 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:37:23am

Well, I see Glenn Greenwald is dancing on Ariel Sharon’s grave today.

405 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:37:40am

re: #403 jaunte

It seems like a simple story: it always seems cheaper to let things slide until an accident happens.

But that’s not an angle generally acceptable to wingnuts, since they tend to see it as “legitimizing Obamunism!!1” or some sort of BS like that.

406 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:37:54am
407 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:38:36am

Bully!

408 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:39:00am

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

But that’s not an angle generally acceptable to wingnuts, since they tend to see it as “legitimizing Obamunism!!1” or some sort of BS like that.

That’s because they’re idiots.

409 AlexRogan  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:39:34am

re: #404 Charles Johnson

Well, I see Glenn Greenwald is dancing on Ariel Sharon’s grave today.

[Embedded content]

What a self-absorbed shithead…

410 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:39:35am

re: #406 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Nope, much too pretty to smoke.

For the time being….

411 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:39:46am

re: #406 Charles Johnson

Looks a little like a coral reef.

412 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:40:23am

re: #404 Charles Johnson

Well, I see Glenn Greenwald is dancing on Ariel Sharon’s grave today.

[Embedded content]

413 allegro  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:40:59am

re: #410 Backwoods_Sleuth

Nope, much too pretty to smoke.

For the time being….

That’s like not eating one of VB’s pies.

414 jaunte  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:41:17am

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

From what I understand, the storage tank needed a better retaining dike around it, and this wouldn’t have been such a problem.

415 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:41:48am

re: #408 Lidane

That’s because they’re idiots.

They just hate Barack Obama so much that it overwhelms their minds.

416 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:42:34am

re: #413 allegro

That’s like not eating one of VB’s pies.

got me there…

417 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:45:47am

re: #406 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

They are so cute at that age.

419 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:46:58am

So the federal recognition of gay marriages in Utah seems to have caused a few head explosions. One wingnut I know is linking to Joe the Plumber’s rant about Holder overstepping his bounds and pissing on the Constitution.

It’s going to be a fun day. What time is the Seahawks/Saints game?

420 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:47:32am

re: #418 Killgore Trout

Banks Say No to Marijuana Money, Legal or Not

good thing banks aren’t as concerned about accepting illegal drug money.

422 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:48:04am

re: #404 Charles Johnson

Greenwald seemed to have no problem calling Mandela a hero after he passed, despite being convicted by the South African government. “Nelson Mandela: a noble reminder that those declared “criminals” by an unjust society are often the most just.”

But he’s got no problem speaking ill of Sharon because well, Israel.

That and Greenwald’s the arbiter of all that is good and just in the world (see, also, Dudebros/Snowden/NSA/spycraft, all of which indicts the US, even as every other country strives and or does the same). He’ll ignore the actual criminal repression of civil and human rights in Russia for the alleged violations by the NSA. Because that’s what Greenwald does.

Israel’s existence owes a great deal to Sharon, who fought/led in every war/confict from its war of independence through to the Operation Grapes of Wrath.

A very complex person and his politics were similarly complex having gone from being a far right wing pro-settler, to advocating and getting the Gaza disengagement and urging painful sacrifices on Israelis for the sake of peace right before the stroke incapacitated him eight years ago.

423 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:48:27am

re: #418 Killgore Trout

Banks Say No to Marijuana Money, Legal or Not

They will lose out in the end. Other investors will take up the slack.

424 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:49:51am

re: #394 Backwoods_Sleuth

Go right ahead with that plan, Big Mo.

Yes, never let reason get in the way of a stupid political rant.

I hate to say it, but damn, sometimes I hope an idiot like that goes through with his stupidity and ends up paying for being pigheaded.

And it also may give him a lesson in Darwinism. ‘Cept he may not be around to use it. Oh well.

425 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:49:57am

re: #406 Charles Johnson

The horror….

426 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:50:13am

re: #420 Backwoods_Sleuth

good thing banks aren’t as concerned about accepting illegal drug money.

You can even do business with Iran if you have really large sums. Banks aren’t going to take risks over small time pot growers. It does look like state level decriminalization is moving really fast these days. I still have some hope Obama will decriminalize pot on the federal level before he leaves office.

427 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:52:36am
428 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:54:36am

re: #426 Killgore Trout

You can even do business with Iran if you have really large sums. Banks aren’t going to take risks over small time pot growers. It does look like state level decriminalization is moving really fast these days. I still have some hope Obama will decriminalize pot on the federal level before he leaves office.

He can’t, Killgore. Marijuana was criminalized at the federal level by an act of Congress. Only Congress can undo that, and Congress is likely years away from doing such a thing.

429 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 10:59:12am

re: #428 Dark_Falcon

He can’t, Killgore. Marijuana was criminalized at the federal level by an act of Congress. Only Congress can undo that, and Congress is likely years away from doing such a thing.

I think congress is a long way from doing something anytime soon but I’m sure there are ways to work around it. At the very least DOJ could refuse to enforce/prosecute. Maybe an executive order could work.

430 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:01:24am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

I think congress is a long way from doing something anytime soon but I’m sure there are ways to work around it. At the very least DOJ could refuse to enforce/prosecute. Maybe an executive order could work.would provoke cries of tyranny and abuse of Presidental power

431 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:01:50am
432 darthstar  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:03:07am

re: #381 sattv4u2

Again,, WHAT time do the Vikings play this weekend??

We’re above post season competition.

433 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:04:13am

Skate punks dressed differently back then. And the wheels were steel!

434 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:05:21am

re: #427 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Didn’t read all of them, but it seems many of the comment are quite similar to those here. Greenwald doesn’t seem to be liked by many for being such an important and heroic journalist.

And yes, I did laugh as I typed that last sentence above.

435 Archangelus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:05:38am

re: #431 Lidane

[Embedded content]

“Oops, our mistake” - I’ll take ‘expressions we’re not likely to hear in the foreseeable future’ for 500 Alex”..

436 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:06:12am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

I think congress is a long way from doing something anytime soon but I’m sure there are ways to work around it. At the very least DOJ could refuse to enforce/prosecute. Maybe an executive order could work.

EXECUTIVE ORDERS are THE EVIL!

437 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:06:21am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

I think congress is a long way from doing something anytime soon but I’m sure there are ways to work around it. At the very least DOJ could refuse to enforce/prosecute. Maybe an executive order could work.

Too much potential for abuse, And frankly, in this case a workaround is in my mind inappropriate. Congress has the responsibility for changing the law. If Congress declines to so, then Congress should catch the blame.

438 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:07:02am

re: #433 wrenchwench

Skate punks dressed differently back then. And the wheels were steel!

[Embedded content]

Mr. Pink. The original skatepunk.

439 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:07:55am

re: #432 darthstar

We’re above post season competition.

Fran Twinkletoes - 0 & 3 in the big game ;)

440 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:08:18am

re: #433 wrenchwench

Skate punks dressed differently back then. And the wheels were steel!

[Embedded content]

His mom is gonna be way pissed off he doesn’t have his safety gear on, Just wait ‘til he gets home…

441 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:11:13am

Party of Small Government:

442 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:16:19am

re: #441 Lidane

Party of Small Government:

[Embedded content]

But penile/vaginal is still cool?

443 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:18:12am

re: #442 Eventual Carrion

But penile/vaginal is still cool?

and vaginal probes!!11!!

444 Ryan King  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:25:49am

re: #443 Backwoods_Sleuth

and vaginal probes!!11!!

Yes, Virginia is where they wanted vaginal probes.

OMFG.

445 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:35:37am

re: #441 Lidane

Party of Small Government:

Virginia Republican wants to outlaw oral sex between teenagers

Well, he was able to get through his teen years without it.

/

By the way…he looks so pleasant. Yeesh. Probably gets by without any sex now too. Ban it all!!!

446 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:22:04pm

Kragar,

I expect Senator Cruz will be telling his supporters about the need for States to stop fighting the Federal government on such topics as same sex marriage, gun control and a woman’s right to choose next.

Only when those issues are no longer popular with the GOP base.

447 S.D.  Sun, Jan 12, 2014 12:17:43pm

I see what you did there…


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