Israel’s Ex-PM Ariel Sharon Dies, Aged 85

Middle East • Views: 40,704

Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has died aged 85 after spending eight years in a coma following a stroke.

Mr Sharon was a giant of the Israeli military and political scene, but courted controversy throughout his long career.

He was being treated at the Sheba Medical Center outside Tel Aviv. A hospital statement is expected shortly.

On Thursday doctors announced that Mr Sharon’s condition had deteriorated.

More: Israel’s Ex-PM Ariel Sharon Dies, Aged 85

Also see
Jeffrey Goldberg: Ariel Sharon Never Changed

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91 comments
1 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:20:45am

RIP Mr Sharon.

2 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 5:57:21am

Sharon was one of the last links to the old order.

He rose through the ranks of the IDF having fought in the war of independence and every war thereafter. He was in the right place at the right time to help save Israel from failure during the Yom Kippur War. After leaving the military, he went into politics as most famous Israeli generals have done, and joined Likud. As a Likud member, he had various ministerial portfolios, but he eventually broke from Likud to form Kadima as the Gaza Disengagement was taking place.

Critics will frequently point to his settler policy and his actions in Lebanon during Operation Grapes of Wrath, which included turning a blind eye to Phalangist militiamen who he allowed to enter Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in West Beirut, where hundreds were killed in a slaughter. He was also instrumental in expanding Israeli housing in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem.

However, as prime minister, he also instituted the Gaza disengagement plan, where he eliminated Israel’s presence in the divisive strip of land - military and settler. It was intended to eliminate a friction point and reduce Israel’s military exposure in Gaza, and the first of several “painful steps” towards peace, but it also revealed that Hamas intended to use that as a sign of Israel’s weakness, not one taken from a position of strength. Hamas would soon institute a campaign of terror that later turned into several rocket wars.

But before Sharon could move ahead with further moves to improve Israel’s security with further disengagement of Palestinian areas, he suffered the stroke that would ultimately felled him.

He was a complex man by any measure, and Israel’s security has Sharon’s stamp on it - both in terms of its actual borders/lines, and by its current security postures.

One has to wonder what could have been had the stroke not incapacitated him and allowed Olmert to assume the reins of power in Kadima.

RIP

3 rosiee  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 9:30:04am

Propaganda sure has infiltrated the minds of youth.

Reddit

4 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:11:30am

Never a dull moment.

5 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:11:51am

re: #3 rosiee

Propaganda sure has infiltrated the minds of youth.

Reddit

Yeah, there’s a lot of that going around today
dailykos.com

7 rosiee  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:28:00am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Jew-hatred is a many headed hydra, this is just it’s current iteration.

8 The War TARDIS  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:30:09am

Considering my Imam was a survivor or Sabra and Shatila, I have a somewhat negative view of him.

But, on the other hand, towards the end of his life, it really looked like he was willing to make up for past actions. So, I have to give a mixed reaction to him.

9 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:42:25am

The photo that most struck me about Ariel Sharon was actually the second of a set of two.

The first photo showed Yasser Arafat carrying a Chinese Makarov-knockoff pistol (semi-auto chambered in 9x18mm Makarov, 8-round magazine). He carried it in a big leather flap holster, and walked with his thumbs in his belt looking straight ahead. Arafat was clearly carrying the gun just for show.

Ariel Sharon, by contrast was shown carrying a Browning Hi-Power (also semi-auto, but chambered for the more powerful 9mm Parabellum round, and with a 13 round magazine). Sharon carried his pistol in a black web holster that was much less visible but much faster to clear the weapon from. Sharon also was looking around (other photos of the same occasion confirmed this) and had his hand ready to make quickly move and draw his pistol had that been needed. Sharon carried the Browning as a statement, but he clearly didn’t carry it for show, he was ready to use it.

The juxtaposition of the two photos sticks in my mind as proof that Sharon was the real deal, while Arafat was just a poser.

10 The War TARDIS  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:43:19am

re: #8 The War TARDIS

I don’t consider the period after he had a stroke and him being in a permanent vegetative state to be alive.

The building was there, but the lights weren’t on. He has been gone for 8 years.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 11:57:31am

PLL, stop firing time torpedoes! They freeze the thread.


//

13 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:05:10pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Raytheon Company: Ship Smarts: Stealth Destroyer Packed With Technology for U.S. Navy

The USS Zumwalt is first in a class of 3. The planned build of this class was greatly scaled back due to their extremely high cost. The USN decided it would better to have a larger number of Block III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers instead.

14 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:08:26pm

re: #7 rosiee

Jew-hatred is a many headed hydra, this is just it’s current iteration.

Ariel Sharon was complicated. There is mixed reaction to him all over the world, including Israel. Are the ones who criticize him in Israel also Jew Haters?

That said, I always think nasty personal attacks on someone who just passed away are in very poor taste.
Disagree with policy and actions if that is what you feel, but leave the nasty name calling out of it.

15 Targetpractice  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:08:45pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Raytheon Company: Ship Smarts: Stealth Destroyer Packed With Technology for U.S. Navy

Still think it looks ugly as sin. But that’s the price to pay for passive stealth.

16 rosiee  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:10:17pm

re: #14 blueraven

I think that even the worst he did pales in comparison with the mildest of Israel’s enemies.

17 Major Tom  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:11:30pm

Politics aside, It seems almost twisted and mildly barbaric to keep someone alive 8 years after death. What if his body, with daily care, lived another 20 years?

18 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:12:02pm

re: #15 Targetpractice

Still think it looks ugly as sin. But that’s the price to pay for passive stealth.

Let’s just hope we don’t have to find out well the stealth tech works in combat.

19 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:12:02pm

re: #16 rosiee

You never heard of a self-hating Jew?

So do you mean to suggest that any Jew critical of Sharon’s career is a self-hating?

20 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:12:57pm

re: #16 rosiee

You never heard of a self-hating Jew?
Apostle Paul’s a good example.

Where did blueraven mention self-hating Jews and what does that even have to do with the comment?

21 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:13:53pm

re: #17 Major Tom

Politics aside, It seems almost twisted and mildly barbaric to keep someone alive 8 years after death. What if his body, with daily care, lived another 20 years?

Sharon’s two surviving sons did not believe he was brain dead. There was a story on tests run on him in 2012-2013 that lent some credibility to that belief.

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:15:45pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

The USS Zumwalt is first in a class of 3. The planned build of this class was greatly scaled back due to their extremely high cost. The USN decided it would better to have a larger number of Block III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers instead.

Perhaps use a few of the new high tech bits, prep them to upgrade when the railguns are online but yeah, a couple of dozen AB’s would have been a far better use of money. We also need to cut the carrier fleet by about 1/2 but that won’t happen anytime soon.

23 Major Tom  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:16:04pm

I understand the motivation.

24 rosiee  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:16:45pm

re: #20 Backwoods_Sleuth

re: #19 bratwurst

>are the ones who criticize him in Irael Jew-haters

sometimes, yes.
self-hate among Jews is rampant.

25 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:17:28pm

good freakin grief….

26 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:19:03pm

re: #16 rosiee

I think that even the worst he did pales in comparison with the mildest of Israel’s enemies.

Possibly, but that wont protect him from criticism and I am sure Israel’s enemies get the same treatment when they die.
What do you think was said about Arafat? What do you think the reaction will be when Ahmadinejad passes?
Controversial figures will always attract the idiots.

27 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:19:19pm

re: #22 William Barnett-Lewis

Perhaps use a few of the new high tech bits, prep them to upgrade when the railguns are online but yeah, a couple of dozen AB’s would have been a far better use of money. We also need to cut the carrier fleet by about 1/2 but that won’t happen anytime soon.

No, we need at least 8 CVNs. A 25% cut I could see, but if we do that I’d like to step up F-35 production and increase the air wing carried on each flattop.

28 Major Tom  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:19:48pm

Gawker headline: “Breaking: Ariel Sharon Still Dead”


gawker.com

29 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:19:50pm

re: #24 rosiee

>are the ones who criticize him in Irael Jew-haters

sometimes, yes.
self-hate among Jews is rampant.

You don’t get to change my question.

30 rosiee  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:22:53pm

re: #29 bratwurst

Sometimes they are bratwurst, sometimes they arn’t.
It’s all in the tone of voice.

31 AlexRogan  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:23:34pm

re: #28 Major Tom

Gawker headline: “Breaking: Ariel Sharon Still Dead”

Classy…

32 freetoken  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:23:58pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

The destroyer carries technologies that will benefit the Navy for years to come, most notably its Total Ship Computing Environment – a single, secure network that controls everything from radars to weapons.

It took a long time for the Navy to shift to an architecture more under its own control, rather than that of certain defense contractors.

This is at least 40 years in the making, and marks the real end of the long dominant designs originating out of the AN/UYK-7 family of systems.

I was one hoping for an even more automatic real time system, but something about not needing officers anymore sort of chafed the brass….

33 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:26:38pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

No, we need at least 8 CVNs. A 25% cut I could see, but if we do that I’d like to step up F-35 production and increase the air wing carried on each flattop.

Why so many? 2 (one Pacific, one Atlantic) at sea, one repair & resupplying, one training up. There isn’t sufficient threat from anyone in the world to require the attention of more than one carrier group + attack subs.

I won’t reiterate my feelings on the F35 as you’re well aware of them. More F18’s would be a far better use of the money.

34 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:26:56pm

re: #28 Major Tom

Gawker headline: “Breaking: Ariel Sharon Still Dead”

Filed under “Asshole Headlines”. It’s mostly stuff from Fox News that gets put there, but that Gawker headline rates.

The passage of Ariel Sharon will not be the finest hour of the Left. He was enough of a biet noir that the left-side of the blogosphere will see a notable number of its members beclowning itself.

On the right end of the spectrum, expect to see obits for Sharon that are fair to him but also feature ugly examples of anti-Muslim hate. so conservatives looking the have bag of popcorn while watching moonbats say stupid things should focus on smacking down right-wing haters instead.

35 freetoken  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:29:04pm

BTW, the US can only afford three of them.

Eventually we as a nation are going to have to come to terms with what it will really cost to try and “run” the world according to our liking.

We’re skating now on the success of winning the cold war. We expended a great deal of reserve wealth on the second Iraq war. Yes, we now have many experienced troops, but unless we plan on invading another country in 20 years that experience will fade away into retirement.

All surface combatants and submarines are now major expenses and Congress will buy in small numbers. When even a single destroyer starts breaking the budget we know we can’t even afford a 300 ship Navy anymore.

36 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:29:14pm

This isn’t a thread which I really want to participate in. However, the less said about someone who’s been dead for 8 yrs, the better. Nothing that’s said will change the way someone has lived, or what he or she believed or thought.

Let’s learn from the past and try not to create the same conditions nor make the same mistakes in the future.

37 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:32:01pm

re: #33 William Barnett-Lewis

Why so many? 2 (one Pacific, one Atlantic) at sea, one repair & resupplying, one training up. There isn’t sufficient threat from anyone in the world to require the attention of more than one carrier group + attack subs.

I won’t reiterate my feelings on the F35 as you’re well aware of them. More F18’s would be a far better use of the money.

A confrontation with China would need more than one CVN. Likely 3-4. One carrier would be sunk, especially know that they’ve completed the shakedown of their first carrier battle group.

As for fighters, I’d be OK with Super Hornets instead of Lightning IIs. The important thing is to build the birds and get them on the decks. Perhaps a full extra squadron of F/A-18Es and a smaller group of F-35s for CAP duty.

38 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:35:29pm

Syrian Electronic Army Hacks Microsoft Twitter Account

mashable.com

Also,

techworm.in

“The latest victim of Syrian Electronic Army is Microsoft’s Xbox twitter Account, Syrian Electronic tweeted two images which shows they have gained access to official twitter and Instagram Account of Xbox. “

39 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:39:14pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

A confrontation with China would need more than one CVN. Likely 3-4. One carrier would be sunk, especially know that they’ve completed the shakedown of their first carrier battle group.

As for fighters, I’d be OK with Super Hornets instead of Lightning IIs. The important thing is to build the birds and get them on the decks. Perhaps a full extra squadron of F/A-18Es and a smaller group of F-35s for CAP duty.

The conflict with China will be almost purely in the economic and cyberspace realms.

As for the PLA Navy, I’m reminded of the apocryphal description of the Soviet cruiser Kirov by a SSN commander: A Navy Cross waiting to happen.

40 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:42:16pm

Ariel Sharon grew up in a very different world than the one most of us live in. He was a lethal military commander who did not shy away from brutality - but he was far from the only one in that era to use appallingly brutal tactics. His legacy is complex - not all good, not all bad.

But it’s repellent to see people like Glenn Greenwald spewing hatred at him on the day he dies.

41 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:42:50pm

re: #39 William Barnett-Lewis

Our military budget might be compared to the Maginot line in this context.

42 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:46:43pm

re: #39 William Barnett-Lewis

The conflict with China will be almost purely in the economic and cyberspace realms.

As for the PLA Navy, I’m reminded of the apocryphal description of the Soviet cruiser Kirov by a SSN commander: A Navy Cross waiting to happen.

I’m not sure I’d agree with either part of that description, since the Kirov-class ships have their own ASW capability and always operated with ASW vessels.

As for the Liaoning , taking her out with a sub would be no mean feat. She’s got ASW helos aboard, plus four escorts with her at all times, two of which are Type 054A ASW-optimized frigates (the other two ships are Type 051C destroyers). I’d figure you’d need three subs to be sure of success or a combined air-surface-underwater attack. A full court press could take her, but she won’t be China’s only CV for long.

43 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:47:24pm

re: #41 Amory Blaine

Our military budget might be compared to the Maginot line in this context.

We are prepared to fight the WWIII of Tom Clancy, not the conflicts that are actually likely to happen. That’s not likely to change anytime soon - look how fast we lost the lessons of counterinsurgency from the last time? Bet we lose them even faster this time…

This book: America’s First Battles, 1776-1965 is still very important reading.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:49:28pm

re: #41 Amory Blaine

Our military budget might be compared to the Maginot line in this context.

Explain, please. Do so while bearing in mind that both the Maginot Line and the strategic thinking behind it are often oversimplified in by ‘popular histories’.

45 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:52:17pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

I’m not sure I’d agree with either part of that description, since the Kirov-class ships have their own ASW capability and always operated with ASW vessels.

As for the Liaoning , taking her out with a sub would be no mean feat. She’s got ASW helos aboard, plus four escorts with her at all times, two of which are Type 054A ASW-optimized frigates (the other two ships are Type 051C destroyers). I’d figure you’d need three subs to be sure of success or a combined air-surface-underwater attack. A full court press could take her, but she won’t be China’s only CV for long.

For crews that trained on tracking and sinking boomers, the PLA Navy will not present much of a problem.

As for more than one, let them waste the money rather than us. The Riga Liaoning will be gone fast if the USN decides that’s necesary. I believe it would have been harder to sink it while in the Soviet Navy than now.

46 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:54:59pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Ariel Sharon grew up in a very different world than the one most of us live in. He was a lethal military commander who did not shy away from brutality - but he was far from the only one in that era to use appallingly brutal tactics. His legacy is complex - not all good, not all bad.

But it’s repellent to see people like Glenn Greenwald spewing hatred at him on the day he dies.

I expect nothing more from Greenwald. The man has no sense of what is right and what is wrong.
He has no sense of nuance or common decency for that matter. It is all about him and his vile hatred for anyone he disagrees with.

47 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:55:13pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

I mean (over-simplistically) if cyber and economic threats are our future of warfare, then the military will be mostly ineffective and maybe detrimental in the false sense of security it provides.

48 b_sharp  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:55:18pm

Do not conflate disagreement with a person’s or government’s policies and bigotry against them because they belong to a specific culture.

49 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:58:11pm

re: #45 William Barnett-Lewis

You’re wrong on that last. China is training its ship crews far better than the Soviet Union did. We’ve still got an edge, but they’ve got much better training doctrine than Ivan ever had.

Here’s an article about the Laioning and her task group.

50 b_sharp  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 12:59:17pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Ariel Sharon grew up in a very different world than the one most of us live in. He was a lethal military commander who did not shy away from brutality - but he was far from the only one in that era to use appallingly brutal tactics. His legacy is complex - not all good, not all bad.

But it’s repellent to see people like Glenn Greenwald spewing hatred at him on the day he dies.

There in a nutshell is the problem, viewing an individual without context and as a two dimensional character.

51 GlutenFreeJesus  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:00:02pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

The USS Zumwalt is first in a class of 3. The planned build of this class was greatly scaled back due to their extremely high cost. The USN decided it would better to have a larger number of Block III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers instead.

Captain James Kirk is running the Zumwalt. :)

52 Political Atheist  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:05:17pm

re: #45 William Barnett-Lewis

Those forces are well funded and highly motivated. They have the disadvantage of inexperience as you point out. That may be in part offset by their secrecy and security. It’s critical we not come to major naval blows with the Chinese.

One reason I say that is the methods they have available to offset our technology and net centric war fighting are cheaper and relatively simple. Another is the sheer scale. The industrial power they have compared to our declined heavy industry.

I’m not saying we would lose. I am saying the cost of a win would be pyrrhic.

53 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:05:39pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Filed under “Asshole Headlines”. It’s mostly stuff from Fox News that gets put there, but that Gawker headline rates.

Are you even aware of what Gawker is? It’s a snarky news aggregation site. I would be amazed if they *didn’t* put that headline there.

54 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:05:47pm

re: #51 GlutenFreeJesus

Captain James Kirk is running the Zumwalt. :)

Indeed. May he live long and prosper.

55 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:06:39pm

re: #53 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Are you even aware of what Gawker is? It’s a snarky news aggregation site. I would be amazed if they *didn’t* put that headline there.

I don’t care. Some types of snark on some occasions make you an asshole in my eyes.

56 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:07:08pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

You’re wrong on that last. China is training its ship crews far better than the Soviet Union did. We’ve still got an edge, but they’ve got much better training doctrine than Ivan ever had.

Here’s an article about the Laioning and her task group.

That reads an awful lot like the glowing reports I used to read on the T80 & T64 regiments in the DDR back in the early 80’s. The 9th Guards Tank Division was a favorite boogieman IIRC. I’d be willing to bet these are similarly optimistic for similar reasons - threat inflation is important come budget time.

57 b_sharp  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:10:17pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

I don’t care. Some types of snark on some occasions make you an asshole in my eyes.

I would never put my asshole in your eyes.

58 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:11:38pm

re: #56 William Barnett-Lewis

That reads an awful lot like the glowing reports I used to read on the T80 & T64 regiments in the DDR back in the early 80’s. The 9th Guards Tank Division was a favorite boogieman IIRC. I’d be willing to bet these are similarly optimistic for similar reasons - threat inflation is important come budget time.

We’ve got better sources this time and China’s ships spend more time at sea with fewer major accidents than the Red Navy did. Crew quality is getting harder to fake thanks to the internet.

The T-80 is actually a decent tank in its current iterations, though the T-64 proved to be as big a dog as the IS-3.

59 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:11:47pm

Carrie Fischer

60 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:12:24pm

re: #57 b_sharp

I would never put my asshole in your eyes.

That’s good, ‘cause I’d lay the smack down on your ass if you did. :D

61 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:12:43pm

re: #57 b_sharp

I would never put my asshole in your eyes.

I am desperately resisting the urge to share the image of the asshole chocolate that showed up on my FB timeline this morning…

62 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:13:34pm

re: #59 Amory Blaine

[Embedded image]

You asked for it:

Boba Fett Movie: ‘Star Wars’ Spinoff Confirmed, In Pre-Production

63 Bear  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:14:02pm

re: #59 Amory Blaine

As the owl said “WHO”

64 Ryan King  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:14:58pm

asshole chocolate?

LOL

65 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:16:46pm

re: #64 Ryan King

asshole chocolate?

LOL

google it. srsly.
Some people have way too much time to think up stuffs…

66 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:17:11pm

re: #63 Bear

Sorry I updated it to show it’s Carrie Fischer.

67 Bear  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:18:11pm

re: #66 Amory Blaine

TNX

68 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:20:38pm

Here’s more from Chewbacca’s twitter feed.

69 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:21:09pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

We’ve got better sources this time and China’s ships spend more time at sea with fewer major accidents than the Red Navy did. Crew quality is getting harder to fake thanks to the internet.

The T-80 is actually a decent tank in its current iterations, though the T-64 proved to be as big a dog as the IS-3.

The T-80 decent? If you like catastrophic explosions of the ammo, I suppose. No matter how much the retrofit, that turret will never be safe compared to the M1 ammo storage with blast doors & blow out panels.

As for the naval crews & quality, I’d simply say that the CIA swore their sources were just as good then as they do now. Until there is steel on target we’ll never know their true quality. God willing we won’t find out until years later ala the documents we got from the DDR army after reunification show just how bad the Soviet Forces were and that they thought we could move twice as many troops as we really could via REFORGER.

70 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:28:28pm

re: #69 William Barnett-Lewis

That’s why China’s newer tanks put the ammo in a turret bustle with blowout panels, as we do. The Chinese saw just how badly their older tanks sucked in the 1991 Gulf War and they have drawn the correct lessons. That’s why the PLA’s tank numbers having been going down as the PLA’s budget went up: They’ve gone with fewer but much better tanks manned by fewer but much better crews.

Our victories over Saddam Hussein taught China number of lessons. They have proven themselves apt pupils, and that makes them scary.

71 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:28:58pm

Meanwhile, today I baked a birthday cake for my son’s 12th Birthday. Not at the level of the Pie Mistress’ work but not too bad either.

Before…

Nom Nom Nom

After :D

72 ObserverArt  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:30:49pm

re: #71 William Barnett-Lewis

Meanwhile, today I baked a birthday cake for my son’s 12th Birthday. Not at the level of the Pie Mistress’ work but not too bad either.

Before…

Nom Nom Nom

After :D

Hmmm, looks like you have some left. (Hint…Hint!)

73 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:33:50pm

re: #72 ObserverArt

Hmmm, looks like you have some left. (Hint…Hint!)

…would hate to see anything happen to those leftovers…

74 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:34:48pm

re: #72 ObserverArt

Hmmm, looks like you have some left. (Hint…Hint!)

The leftovers are snacks for the football games today.

75 Lidane  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:38:44pm

All of these things are true:

—Ariel Sharon lived a complex life that can’t be summarized in 140 characters.

—There are a lot of assholes on the internet who will try to do it anyway.

—I have a German chocolate cake cooling on the counter right now.

:)

76 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:39:12pm

The thing to understand about China is that they are not an existential threat to the United States as the Soviet Union was, but they have become much smarter about developing their military than the USSR was.

77 Stanley Sea  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:40:36pm

re: #71 William Barnett-Lewis

Meanwhile, today I baked a birthday cake for my son’s 12th Birthday. Not at the level of the Pie Mistress’ work but not too bad either.

Before…

Nom Nom Nom

After :D

Lots of icing. Perfect.

78 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:45:08pm
79 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:47:24pm
80 kerFuFFler  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:49:00pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Sharon’s two surviving sons did not believe he was brain dead. There was a story on tests run on him in 2012-2013 that lent some credibility to that belief.

Somehow it seems even crueler to keep a comatose person alive for 8 years if you suspect that there is a glimmer of consciousness remaining. Imagine not being able to communicate any of your wishes for that long and remaining essentially blind and paralyzed. If you experienced an itch you could not scratch it and if any music was too loud you could not ask that it be turned down. Pure torture. As technology advances we really need to ask ourselves if “choosing life” is really always the moral choice.

81 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:52:40pm

re: #71 William Barnett-Lewis

Meanwhile, today I baked a birthday cake for my son’s 12th Birthday. Not at the level of the Pie Mistress’ work but not too bad either.

Before…

Nom Nom Nom

After :D

12.

He’s getting too old, isn’t he? My sons complained that they didn’t need a cake (it was always devils food w/chocolate icing) but they always ate it.

82 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:52:40pm

re: #80 kerFuFFler

Somehow it seems even crueler to keep a comatose person alive for 8 years if you suspect that there is a glimmer of consciousness remaining. Imagine not being able to communicate any of your wishes for that long and remaining essentially blind and paralyzed. If you experienced an itch you could not scratch it and if any music was too loud you could not ask that it be turned down. Pure torture. As technology advances we really need to ask ourselves if “choosing life” is really always the moral choice.

But if a person is ‘locked in’ (conscious, but can’t do anything), how are you going to end their life without another form of cruelty?

This is why one should make one’s wishes known in advance, and also why family should make decisions, not bureaucrats.

83 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 1:53:27pm

re: #82 wrenchwench

But if a person is ‘locked in’ (conscious, but can’t do anything), how are you going to end their life without another form of cruelty?

This is why one should make one’s wishes known in advance, and also why family should make decisions, not bureaucrats.

Just so.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:01:11pm

Off-topic:

This was posted to a LinkedIn group that I’m part of. Given the what it deals with, I felt you folks might want to read it:

ALEC’s master plan to reshape U.S. energy policy in 2014

Read it if you want, feel free to Page it if you wish, though I’d ask for a hat tip in that case.

85 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:02:24pm

re: #80 kerFuFFler

Somehow it seems even crueler to keep a comatose person alive for 8 years if you suspect that there is a glimmer of consciousness remaining. Imagine not being able to communicate any of your wishes for that long and remaining essentially blind and paralyzed. If you experienced an itch you could not scratch it and if any music was too loud you could not ask that it be turned down. Pure torture. As technology advances we really need to ask ourselves if “choosing life” is really always the moral choice.

Trapped with NO means of communicating with anyone.
Torture, indeed.

86 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:03:49pm

Frivolous lawsuit of the year already.

Pimp sues Nike for not warning shoes could be dangerous if used to beat people

usnews.nbcnews.com

Fuck you, asshole.

Why wasn’t this guy already in jail for sex trafficking, you ask?

katu.com

The wheels of justice grind slowly…

87 blueraven  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:16:27pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Off-topic:

This was posted to a LinkedIn group that I’m part of. Given the what it deals with, I felt you folks might want to read it:

ALEC’s master plan to reshape U.S. energy policy in 2014

Read it if you want, feel free to Page it if you wish, though I’d ask for a hat tip in that case.

I cant read the article at the moment, but I do not want a “corporate funded group” writing “model” legislation.
That is what we hold elections for.

88 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:22:07pm

re: #87 blueraven

I cant read the article at the moment, but I do not want a “corporate funded group” writing “model” legislation.
That is what we hold elections for.

And ALEC has already written one too many pieces of “model legislation” already.

89 kerFuFFler  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 2:44:25pm

re: #82 wrenchwench

But if a person is ‘locked in’ (conscious, but can’t do anything), how are you going to end their life without another form of cruelty?

I don’t equate death with cruelty. A generous dose of morphine or whatever could end the person’s suffering without being cruel.

90 Ming  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:47:30pm

I’ve always admired Ariel Sharon’s patriotism and dedication, in the face of decade after decade of ferocious, murderous anti-Semitism.

I’m sure we can quibble over particular things that he did. Perhaps the one thing he most wished he could “do over” was when his 8-year-old son gained access to a firearm in his home. Sharon was only human, like all of us.

One thing I wish he had done was prepare more and better leaders to succeed him. I never admired Ehud Olmert (his successor) nearly as much I admired Sharon.

91 Ming  Sat, Jan 11, 2014 4:53:16pm

Maybe I should add that I don’t necessarily agree with everything that Sharon ever did. But I’ve always basically liked and respected him. I really see him as living in a chronic state of emergency, decade after decade, confronted by oceans and oceans of murderous, hateful anti-Semitism. And decade after decade, he stepped up to the plate and kept on swinging.


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