Super Villain Glenn Greenwald Threatens More Leaks Until Obama Bows to Him

The libertarians are getting stranger
Weird • Views: 16,790

Glenn Greenwald’s predictable sarcasm-laced rant denouncing President Obama’s proposed NSA reforms is now posted at The Guardian; according to Mr. Greenwald, the whole thing is a sham designed to keep the sheeple quiet while the “devoted and slavish loyalists of the National Security State” rub their hands and laugh maniacally.

Bet you didn’t see that coming.

And the Mighty Greenwald, as is his wont, concludes by threatening to leak more damaging secrets until Obama knuckles under to his will.

Today’s speech should be seen as the first step, not the last, on the road to restoring privacy. The causes that drove Obama to give this speech need to be, and will be, stoked and nurtured further until it becomes clear to official Washington that, this time around, cosmetic gestures are plainly inadequate.

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122 comments
1 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:14:48pm

Sounds more like he’s got another recruit, rather than threatening a data dump.

2 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:15:13pm

Because Blackmail is the ultimate patriotism.

3 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:16:31pm

Isn’t this the future of journalism?

4 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:17:00pm
The causes that drove Obama to give this speech need to be, and will be, stoked and nurtured further until it becomes clear to official Washington…

Stoking and nurturing causes sounds like something done in basements by mad scientists.

5 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:18:47pm

re: #2 Kragar

Because Blackmail is the ultimate patriotism.

From Brazil.

6 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:18:52pm

Greenwald is just mad that the discussion ended up being that he and Snowden were assholes.

7 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:18:55pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Isn’t this the future of journalism?

If it is, I’m glad I’ll be gone. It gives me a headache every fucking day.

8 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:19:08pm

re: #4 wrenchwench

Stoking and nurturing causes sounds like something done in basements by mad scientists.

Well,… it IS better than the whole “Forced down our throats” meme.

RBS

9 EmmaAnne  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:19:36pm

re: #4 wrenchwench

Stoking and nurturing causes sounds like something done in basements by mad scientists.

Muahahaha!

10 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:20:04pm
11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:21:02pm

He is the Mighty Greenwald. He is the one who stokes.

12 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:23:09pm
13 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:23:36pm

Didn’t he read Sirota’s pant-shitting article? Or is this how GG makes friends?

14 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:24:33pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

He is the Mighty Greenwald. He is the one who stokes.

Charles, you drove me to this…. let it be on your head.
[Probably NSFW]

Youtube Video

RBS

15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:26:35pm

Meh, GG isn’t worth the time or energy.

Snowden isn’t a hero, most people with an agenda aren’t.

Though there is a curious debate, if something deemed legal by congress, but could be unconstitutional if someone had standing, but standing couldn’t be created unless the information came to light, then if part or all of the data collection were deemed later to be unconstitutional, would Snowden then be vindicated?

I’m not posting it to pick a fight, I’m curious what, if anything would change people’s minds about their view of Snowden’s actions? (not the person, I don’t expect anyone to change their opinion of Snowden the person)

16 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:26:44pm

re: #14 RealityBasedSteve

Charles, you drove me to this…. let it be on your head.
[Probably NSFW]

[Embedded content]

RBS

This is all your fault.

Youtube Video

17 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:26:49pm

What’s this about toking and neutering?

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:29:54pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

19 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:30:12pm

Where to start with all this.

Before going into what should be entirely predictable fisking of Greenwald’s nonsense, perhaps the more interesting angle is who exactly is Greenwald writing for?

What is the audience that Greenwald’s writing about with these privacy rights he speaks so fondly of? Brazil’s privacy rights are far less secure than here in the US. So that can’t be it.

Russian protections of civil and privacy rights are legion (after all, it’s why Snowden went there, isn’t it?) (and yes, that’s heaping portions of sarcasm).

So, who is he writing for, and about?

Today’s speech should be seen as the first step, not the last, on the road to restoring privacy.

The US has an established system for protecting an individual’s right to privacy under the US constitution. Part of that was on display today, with the President proposing changes to an already existing system that protects those rights while protecting the nation from threats that might be uncovered through sigint. It’s a far more robust system than many other countries, including those that Snowden sought refuge in.

But really, what is this nonsense about restoring privacy?

When was it what everyone did private?

What about corporate intrusion into your privacy rights? Your emails, texts, tweets, and social media postings tell the companies, advertisers, and 3d parties more about every aspect of your life than anything that the NSA is looking for.

That’s not what he’s railing against.

Greenwald’s railing against a very specific thing here. It’s US NSA searches - all of them. He’s not merely concerned about the searches potentially sweeping in metadata on US citizens in the US, but everything. We’d just have to ignore that the process is constrained by the constitution or federal law or executive order, but those that the NSA is lawfully entitled to conduct on foreign targets (it’s the NSA’s job to do this by federal law).

In other words, Greenwald is still tilting at windmills if he thinks that the NSA will stop doing these things against foreign targets.

Moreover, he refers to the Senate uncovering abuses in intel gathering in the 1970s, ignoring that this was done through legal channels, and reform was done without the need to rely upon espionage and disclosure of classified intel as Snowden has done. He then considers all this ineffective and insufficient.

What it reveals is that Greenwald is railing against the entirety of national security and intel gathering - essentials for any nation-state operating around the world. Greenwald’s statements indicate that he’s got the worldview of a 2-year old who doesn’t understand, and doesn’t want to understand, that there are bad people and bad things, and that governments can and do spy on each other to know what’s going on behind their back.

20 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:30:27pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Not picking a fight, but please explain to me what you think is needed to change people’s minds about actions that include stealing classified data and releasing it to foreign countries.

Particularly when the “agenda” that supposedly drove Snowden was domestic spying. Supposedly.

21 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:30:42pm

I bet 10bux he starts naming assets.

22 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:32:14pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Meh, GG isn’t worth the time or energy.

Snowden isn’t a hero, most people with an agenda aren’t.

Though there is a curious debate, if something deemed legal by congress, but could be unconstitutional if someone had standing, but standing couldn’t be created unless the information came to light, then if part or all of the data collection were deemed later to be unconstitutional, would Snowden then be vindicated?

I’m not posting it to pick a fight, I’m curious what, if anything would change people’s minds about their view of Snowden’s actions? (not the person, I don’t expect anyone to change their opinion of Snowden the person)

For my part, there is nothing on Earth that would vindicate Snowden’s actions. Too much of what has been publicly released has no bearing on legitimate 4th amendment concerns. Plus, IMO the Russians (and possibly the Chinese) already have everything Snowden stole.

To the extent that any real 4th amendment issues come to light as a result of the Snowden affair (which is still debatable at this point), my inclination is to note them for the record and move on to considering reforms.

23 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:32:42pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

Cotton Mather prompted a lot of discussion about the dangers of witchcraft.

24 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:33:27pm

re: #19 lawhawk

Yes, in this one Greenwald pretty much comes out and says the entire metadata collection program should be shut down. That is never going to happen, and it’s frankly nuts to think it will.

Greenwald doesn’t want “reform,” and that’s why he’ll never be satisfied with anything Obama proposes. He wants nothing less than to have the whole thing shut down.

25 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:35:36pm

re: #19 lawhawk

…

What it reveals is that Greenwald is railing against the entirety of national security and intel gathering - essentials for any nation-state operating around the world. Greenwald’s statements indicate that he’s got the worldview of a 2-year old who doesn’t understand, and doesn’t want to understand, that there are bad people and bad things, and that governments can and do spy on each other to know what’s going on behind their back.

Nice analysis. On the last point copied above, I don’t think GG is that stupid. He appeared to have an appreciation for realpolitik in the GW Bush years.

I think it is a business decision. There are more clicks and $$$ in outrageous outrage than in sensible policy conversations.

26 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:35:42pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

I’m not sure the analogy is the same. A closer analogy?

Bonnie and Clyde break in and steal documents from the bank which shows the bank is systematically and knowingly discriminating against minorities.

That analogy isn’t quite right, though it’d be closer if at the time they took the data, there were no laws forbidding discrimination against a minority.

Let me be clear, I’m not Deifying Snowden, His actions were illegal. I just don’t think it’s quite so starkly black and white.

27 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:36:07pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Separate acts involved.

The criminality of Snowden relates to the theft of classified documents, means, and methods, as well as the dissemination of those items to persons who were not entitled to them.

He was not entitled to determine what was or wasn’t classified.

That’s separate and distinct from the claim that if something “deemed legal by Congress, but could be unconstitutional if someone had standing, but standing couldn’t be created unless the information came to light, then if part or all of the data collection were deemed later to be unconstitutional.”

The ends don’t justify the means here either. Snowden, via Greenwald and others, wantonly released documents referring to far more than just domestic surveillance. This wasn’t just about limiting or ending domestic surveillance. It’s about hobbling NSA surveillance in totality.

28 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:36:09pm

Shorter Glenn: “I AM KING SHIT OF FUCK MOUNTAIN!”

29 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:37:30pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Isn’t this the future of journalism?

Or is it truly the end…even if many around here at LGF have suspected it.

30 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:37:39pm

re: #21 Internet Tough Guy

I bet 10bux he starts naming assets.

If anyone starts naming assets, Then he should be arrested and have the book thrown at them.

31 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:37:45pm

re: #26 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

“Bonnie and Clyde break in and steal documents from the bank which shows the bank is systematically and knowingly discriminating against minorities. operating legally and within regulations.”

32 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:38:41pm

re: #19 lawhawk

Where to start with all this.

Before going into what should be entirely predictable fisking of Greenwald’s nonsense, perhaps the more interesting angle is who exactly is Greenwald writing for?

What is the audience that Greenwald’s writing about with these privacy rights he speaks so fondly of? Brazil’s privacy rights are far less secure than here in the US. So that can’t be it.

Russian protections of civil and privacy rights are legion (after all, it’s why Snowden went there, isn’t it?) (and yes, that’s heaping portions of sarcasm).

So, who is he writing for, and about?

The US has an established system for protecting an individual’s right to privacy under the US constitution. Part of that was on display today, with the President proposing changes to an already existing system that protects those rights while protecting the nation from threats that might be uncovered through sigint. It’s a far more robust system than many other countries, including those that Snowden sought refuge in.

But really, what is this nonsense about restoring privacy?

When was it what everyone did private?

What about corporate intrusion into your privacy rights? Your emails, texts, tweets, and social media postings tell the companies, advertisers, and 3d parties more about every aspect of your life than anything that the NSA is looking for.

That’s not what he’s railing against.

Greenwald’s railing against a very specific thing here. It’s US NSA searches - all of them. He’s not merely concerned about the searches potentially sweeping in metadata on US citizens in the US, but everything. We’d just have to ignore that the process is constrained by the constitution or federal law or executive order, but those that the NSA is lawfully entitled to conduct on foreign targets (it’s the NSA’s job to do this by federal law).

In other words, Greenwald is still tilting at windmills if he thinks that the NSA will stop doing these things against foreign targets.

Moreover, he refers to the Senate uncovering abuses in intel gathering in the 1970s, ignoring that this was done through legal channels, and reform was done without the need to rely upon espionage and disclosure of classified intel as Snowden has done. He then considers all this ineffective and insufficient.

What it reveals is that Greenwald is railing against the entirety of national security and intel gathering - essentials for any nation-state operating around the world. Greenwald’s statements indicate that he’s got the worldview of a 2-year old who doesn’t understand, and doesn’t want to understand, that there are bad people and bad things, and that governments can and do spy on each other to know what’s going on behind their back.

I think the jist of the issue is that the US is rapidly transforming from a nation of more-or-less free people, to a nation of heavily surveiled subjects of mostly automated inquiry — unproven innocents.

34 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:39:09pm

re: #31 Kragar

“Bonnie and Clyde break in and steal documents from the bank which shows the bank is systematically and knowingly discriminating against minorities. operating legally and within regulations.”

And then release summaries of internal confidential information, but give the entire haul to the bank’s competitors.

35 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:39:55pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

Greenwald doesn’t want “reform,” and that’s why he’ll never be satisfied with anything Obama proposes. He wants nothing less than to have the whole thing shut down.

IMO:

Greenwald’s a libertarian crypto-anarchist who’s got a great grift going right now.

Snowden is also a libertarian, who figured on a lifetime of comfortable exile in Hong Kong or Singapore as a libertarian hero, and kind of got in over his head.

Anonymous and their ilk would like the NSA and US authorities out of the way so they can continue their hacking and online harassment unmolested.

A lot of US progressives don’t like Obama very much, think this might actually affect them, and like Causes a lot.

36 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:40:38pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

I’m not posting it to pick a fight, I’m curious what, if anything would change people’s minds about their view of Snowden’s actions? (not the person, I don’t expect anyone to change their opinion of Snowden the person)

Snowden’s actions were wrong. His concerns may have had a valid basis, but stealing, lying to get coworkers’ passwords, and absconding to countries that are not friends to this one cannot be excused.

There were other ways he could have brought attention to this, maybe even other illegal ways, that would not have been so wrong. I can’t change what he did, so I can’t change my opinion of what he did.

37 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:41:28pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

Yes, in this one Greenwald pretty much comes out and says the entire metadata collection program should be shut down. That is never going to happen, and it’s frankly nuts to think it will.

Greenwald doesn’t want “reform,” and that’s why he’ll never be satisfied with anything Obama proposes. He wants nothing less than to have the whole thing shut down.

And knowing that is unlikely he has a nice target to continue railing against as a means to draw attention (and $$$) for years to come. Up to the point people decide that he is not worth paying attention to.

38 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:41:37pm

Nowhere in any of this has Snowden or Greenwald shown any evidence that the NSA actually knowingly abused their privileges. His whole screed has been about the “POTENTIAL” for abuse, not actual abuses known to have occurred.

39 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:41:52pm

This Obama sham stunt with the NSA stuff that Snowden forced him to conversate on is just a distraction from his IRS scandal that wasn’t a scandal because the IRS targeted all kinds of political groups for tax investigations and from his BENGhazi scandal which a bipartisan Senate committee determined wasn’t a scandal either. //

40 Lidane  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:42:08pm

re: #33 Gus

Sirota’s an ass. Of course, if you tell him that, he’ll just call you an Obama stooge who lives in a bubble because DRONEZ.

41 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:42:09pm

re: #7 Justanotherhuman

If it is, I’m glad I’ll be gone. It gives me a headache every fucking day.

Anyone thinking about now what someone like Orwell, or Huxley might be thinking about many recent events.

Damn artists…they are always mocked for being crackpots, but too many times they are just 50 years ahead.

42 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:42:13pm

re: #27 lawhawk

Separate acts involved.

The criminality of Snowden relates to the theft of classified documents, means, and methods, as well as the dissemination of those items to persons who were not entitled to them.

He was not entitled to determine what was or wasn’t classified.

That’s separate and distinct from the claim that if something “deemed legal by Congress, but could be unconstitutional if someone had standing, but standing couldn’t be created unless the information came to light, then if part or all of the data collection were deemed later to be unconstitutional.”

The ends don’t justify the means here either. Snowden, via Greenwald and others, wantonly released documents referring to far more than just domestic surveillance. This wasn’t just about limiting or ending domestic surveillance. It’s about hobbling NSA surveillance in totality.

Thanks lawhawk, good points, releasing the information on our spying activities against foreign powers was wrong and damaging to the National interest,

Tangential question, how would we enable judicial review when things are classified and unable to get standing?

43 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:43:04pm

re: #35 ericblair

IMO:

Greenwald’s a libertarian crypto-anarchist who’s got a great grift going right now.

Snowden is also a libertarian, who figured on a lifetime of comfortable exile in Hong Kong or Singapore as a libertarian hero, and kind of got in over his head.

Anonymous and their ilk would like the NSA and US authorities out of the way so they can continue their hacking and online harassment unmolested.

A lot of US progressives don’t like Obama very much, think this might actually affect them, and like Causes a lot.

My observation has been that the loudest complaints on this issue have come from white, middle/upper class males.

44 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:44:03pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

Yes, in this one Greenwald pretty much comes out and says the entire metadata collection program should be shut down. That is never going to happen, and it’s frankly nuts to think it will.

Greenwald doesn’t want “reform,” and that’s why he’ll never be satisfied with anything Obama proposes. He wants nothing less than to have the whole thing shut down.

He wants to talk about how he wants reform.

He doesn’t actually want it shut down. Then he’d be out of the limelight and out of the cash pile.

45 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:44:41pm

re: #31 Kragar

“Bonnie and Clyde break in and steal documents from the bank which shows the bank is systematically and knowingly discriminating against minorities. operating legally and within regulations.”

This x100. Had the COINTELPRO etc. abuses of the 20th century been exposed by theft of classified information and leaks to US newspapers (without collateral damage to legitimate intelligence activities), I would have basically approved of the theft/leaks.

Snowden/GG haven’t found anything remotely close to sufficiently serious illegal activity to justify their circus (even if it didn’t have collateral damage and the involvement of the Russians and Chinese).

46 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:44:59pm

King Twitter Troll uses the internet to complain about privacy. Irony meter overloading.

47 makeitstop  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:46:15pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

Charles Johnson advocates shooting Snowden to death like Bonnie & Clyde!!1ty

48 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:46:40pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

Greenwald wasn’t around back then. Data incomplete.

///

49 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:47:01pm

re: #26 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

I’m not going to get into playing dueling analogies, but you missed my point - causing a national discussion, even one that’s positive and productive, is not a measure of vindication.

50 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:47:23pm

re: #20 klys

Not picking a fight, but please explain to me what you think is needed to change people’s minds about actions that include stealing classified data and releasing it to foreign countries.

Particularly when the “agenda” that supposedly drove Snowden was domestic spying. Supposedly.

We are in agreement that his actions that damaged the US interest about foreign spying are not something that should be ignored or glossed over. I wouldn’t want Snowden pardoned. He can sit in Russia for a nice long time. If he comes to the US, he should be arrested and tried.

51 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:48:27pm

re: #38 Kragar

Nowhere in any of this has Snowden or Greenwald shown any evidence that the NSA actually knowingly abused their privileges. His whole screed has been about the “POTENTIAL” for abuse, not actual abuses known to have occurred.

A very specific term for a web search: foxacid

52 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:49:01pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

I’m not going to get into playing dueling analogies, but you missed my point - causing a national discussion, even one that’s positive and productive, is not a measure of vindication.

en.wikipedia.org The Pentagon Papers as an analogy.

53 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:50:07pm

re: #50 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

We are in agreement that his actions that damaged the US interest about foreign spying are not something that should be ignored or glossed over. I wouldn’t want Snowden pardoned. He can sit in Russia for a nice long time. If he comes to the US, he should be arrested and tried.

Well, then there’s your answer to this question:

I’m not posting it to pick a fight, I’m curious what, if anything would change people’s minds about their view of Snowden’s actions?

Since, like WW said, we can’t change his actions, nothing is going to change my view of his actions, because I don’t believe you can ignore the crap he did that was completely orthogonal to his stated ‘purpose’.

54 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:50:14pm

re: #42 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

That would require Congress to clarify/revise the FISA and FISC to allow third parties standing. You’d then have a forum that allows someone like the ACLU (or individuals) to bring suit in a venue that can and does handle classified information on a regular basis.

Making redacted decisions from that court public would also improve public perceptions and confidence that the FISC is operating to protect the rights of US individuals.

55 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:50:24pm

re: #26 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

What I struggle with is that the narrative of Snowden as whistleblower falls apart when you combine the inconsistencies in his story of how he did it, his flight to two countries with very active digital espionage (and horrific records on privacy and human rights), and, most damningly, that most of the “leaks” have involved overseas activity not germane to the initial claim of why the deed was done.

The stuff released about Americans citizens has been consistently presented in a sensational manner, with excluded details, And basically everything reported of what has been reported falls into the realm of the “legal” as set out in the raft of post-9.11 legislation. It’s not shocking if you were paying attention.

I’ve been wanting a conversation in this country about the Patriot Act for a dozen years. We’re still not really having it. Both dudebros and wingnuts seem to approaching this as a partisan issue—and a bunch of them specifically want to lay this all of Obama—and to have no problem with the fudging of details.

And each round of leaks and bloviating commentaries makes me more and more suspicious that this isn’t about privacy at all.

56 blueraven  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:51:42pm

Holy Hell…another school shooting in Philadelphia

LOGAN - January 17, 2014 (WPVI) — Medics are being dispatched to a school in the Logan section of Philadelphia for a reported shooting.

The incident is being reported at the Delaware Valley Charter School located at 5201 Old York Road.

Authorities could only confirmed that two people were shot at that location, one male and one female.

57 AntonSirius  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:52:02pm

re: #37 Feline Fearless Leader

And knowing that is unlikely he has a nice target to continue railing against as a means to draw attention (and $$$) for years to come. Up to the point people decide that he is not worth paying attention to.

GG’s “privacy” grift is really no different than the culture warrior’s abortion grift, in that sense. The last thing either of them want is to actually get what they’re campaigning for.

58 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:52:09pm

Sorry if I hadn’t made it clear, Charles, I agree that Snowden’s actions can’t be considered vindicated. I’m trying to get a better understanding of this whole mess.

59 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:52:09pm

re: #52 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Even the Pentagon Papers isn’t a good analogy.

It didn’t reveal means and methods for intel or military actions forthcoming.

It was about revealing just how we had been losing the Vietnam War and that the studies Ellsberg and others had put together indicated that we would not win.

That’s a huge difference from a document dump that included means and methods on intel gathering on foreign countries, regimes, and terror groups in active operations.

60 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:52:33pm
61 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:52:45pm

re: #26 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

I’m not sure the analogy is the same. A closer analogy?

Bonnie and Clyde break in and steal documents from the bank which shows the bank is systematically and knowingly discriminating against minorities.

That analogy isn’t quite right, though it’d be closer if at the time they took the data, there were no laws forbidding discrimination against a minority.

Let me be clear, I’m not Deifying Snowden, His actions were illegal. I just don’t think it’s quite so starkly black and white.

Except that Snowden stole a bunch of random classified documents, not selecting specifically those that demonstrated unequivocal unconstitutional wrongdoing.

Just like Bonnie and Clyde stole a random bunch of money.

62 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:54:02pm

re: #33 Gus

David Sirota Uses Doctored Image of Pres. Obama Shooting Edward Snowden With Shotgun

He wants to get a bunch of retweets from #tgdn #tcot and #lnyhbt

63 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:54:30pm

re: #59 lawhawk

Even the Pentagon Papers isn’t a good analogy.

It didn’t reveal means and methods for intel or military actions forthcoming.

It was about revealing just how we had been losing the Vietnam War and that the studies Ellsberg and others had put together indicated that we would not win.

That’s a huge difference from a document dump that included means and methods on intel gathering on foreign countries, regimes, and terror groups in active operations.

If we’re going to go down that analogy route, it would have been “we’re losing the Vietnam war, now let me send some classified specs on weapons and asset development to the USSR!”

64 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:54:35pm

re: #52 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

en.wikipedia.org

I think that most here approve of the leaking of the Pentagon Papers and most also disapprove of Snowden’s actions. It isn’t hard to come up with reasons why these two leak scenarios are completely different. For starters:

1) The pentagon papers were classified essentially because its analysis was an embarrassment in relation to US policy at the time —- there was no compromise of intelligence methods or results in that leak.

2) Ellsberg stayed in the US and was prepared to defend himself in court on the espionage charges. (A trial never happened because of prosecutor misconduct).

Edited to add —- it is disappointing that Ellsberg himself does not appreciate these differences.

65 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:55:07pm

re: #51 abolitionist

A very specific term for a web search: foxacid

Its is a tool, just like an M-16 or a hammer. How has its use been abused by the NSA?

66 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:56:13pm

re: #43 klys

My observation has been that the loudest complaints on this issue have come from white, middle/upper class males.

HURR HURR WE ARE TEH ROSA PARKS & TEH MLK BUT EVEN MOAR!!!111!!11111111

67 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:56:22pm
68 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:57:01pm

I really don’t think that Rubio is all that bright…just like his opposite, Greenwald.

69 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:58:40pm

re: #52 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

en.wikipedia.org The Pentagon Papers as an analogy.

No, Ellsberg didn’t run to Russia with his stash. He stayed and faced the music.

Ellsberg is also wrong for admiring Snowden.

Snowden is still a shitbag.

70 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:59:00pm

Quite frankily, I would be more concerned if the NSA didn’t have tools that could break thru encrypted communications.

71 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:00:11pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

The fact that Edward Snowden caused a discussion over the limits of NSA surveillance does not vindicate him, or make him a hero. Bonnie and Clyde caused a lot of discussion about how to prevent bank robberies - did that vindicate them?

Totally agree. The other day you stopped short of traitor to describe Snowden. Curious what he lacks that makes that term be too much? His misguided intent? If we can believe that anyway.

72 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:00:53pm
73 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:01:50pm

re: #72 Gus

[Embedded content]

I just block idiots like that right away. Zero tolerance policy.

74 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:02:47pm

On a related note:

75 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:02:47pm

It is not 2 images next to each other it is one image on top of another.

76 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:03:31pm

HURR HURR Y U MAKE FUN OF ME & HURT MY FEELINGS???

77 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:04:10pm

re: #71 Political Atheist

Totally agree. The other day you stopped short of traitor to describe Snowden. Curious what he lacks that makes that term be too much? His misguided intent? If we can believe that anyway.

I’m not sure one can be an unintentional traitor. The word requires intent and understanding; I doubt Snowjob thinks he’s a traitor.

It’s an interesting question. If he falls short of the word, it’s only by a hair.

78 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:05:00pm

re: #71 Political Atheist

Totally agree. The other day you stopped short of traitor to describe Snowden. Curious what he lacks that makes that term be too much? His misguided intent? If we can believe that anyway.

I haven’t yet seen solid evidence that he intended to commit treason in the classic sense. He seems to be more of a clueless narcissistic dope than a cold-blooded traitor, but I don’t think the final verdict is in yet. There are still big questions about the timeline of his escapades that leave open the possibility this may have been more premeditated than we yet know.

79 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:05:39pm

re: #73 Charles Johnson

I just block idiots like that right away. Zero tolerance policy.

Good idea.

80 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:05:48pm

re: #65 Kragar

Its is a tool, just like an M-16 or a hammer. How has its use been abused by the NSA?

Simply put, they are breaking the internet. They are injecting malware and exploits into innocent peoples’ computers, and accessing them in ways that are contrary to US law. [Edit] When the targeting and the exploits are automated, how can there be any meaningful oversight?

81 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:06:37pm

Oh no…Greenwald sighting on Now with Alex Wagner! Heads up…

And, I just tuned back into her show because I like her…let’s see where this goes.

82 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:07:36pm

re: #75 Amory Blaine

It’s not really Obama it’s just pixels!!!

83 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:08:05pm

re: #65 Kragar

Its is a tool, just like an M-16 or a hammer. How has its use been abused by the NSA?

In other words: the local parks department bought a new chainsaw. Which has the potential for chopping down the big oak in front of my house, killing my entire family when it falls on them in the night.

84 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:11:33pm

re: #80 abolitionist

Simply put, they are breaking the internet. They are injecting malware and exploits into innocent peoples’ computers, and accessing them in ways that are contrary to US law.

They could also tap a phone, deploy a satellite or set up a surveillance team as well.

How the NSA Is Trying to Sabotage a U.S. Government-Funded Countersurveillance Tool

According to the leaked slides published Friday by the Guardian, the NSA has devised a way to identify targeted Tor users, and it has the capacity to covertly redirect targets to a set of special servers called “FoxAcid.” Once identified as a target, the spy agency can try to infect a user with malware by preying on software vulnerabilities in the Mozilla Firefox browser. This capability was hinted at in a report by Brazilian TV show Fantastico in September. As I noted at the time, the British spy agency GCHQ appeared to be monitoring Tor users as part of a program called “Flying Pig.”

Notably, the leaked Snowden files on Tor may shed light on some of the tactics used by the U.S. government to identify the recently outed alleged mastermind of the Silk Road online drug empire. Silk Road operated on a hidden Tor server, which was tracked down by the feds and shut down. Back in August, the feds also managed to shut down a Tor server allegedly used to host images of child abuse. In a malware attack that was linked by researchers to the NSA, the FBI reportedly exploited a Mozilla vulnerability to target users—similar to the spy methods described in the Snowden documents.

Please note the part where it says “TARGETED”. Additionally, since the systems are anonymous the NSA will end up occasionally targeting innocent sources who won’t be involved, but the NSA would have no way to know that ahead of time.

So, where is the abuse versus the potential for abuse?

85 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:12:40pm

re: #70 Kragar

Quite frankily, I would be more concerned if the NSA >didn’t have tools that could break thru encrypted communications.

In any event trying to break encryption methods is pretty much the entire reason they exist. We don’t stop preparing for conflict. There are smart and not so smart ways of doing that, codebreaking techniques are the actually useful compared to a lot of the weapons systems we develop.

Also, the Tor network wouldn’t exist without the US government. The Navy invented it, and we continue to be the project’s largest financial backer. The fact is we’ve done more to enable anonymity on the internet than any other government around.

86 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:12:54pm

June 2013:

Mr Snowden is reported to have left his “plush hotel” just three times in his three-week stay. He said he feared for his safety, worried that he could be rendered by the CIA or dealt with by the Chinese triads.
independent.co.uk

“Yes, I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me. Or any of the third-party partners. They work closely with a number of other nations. Or they could pay off the Triads. Any of their agents or assets,” he said.
theguardian.com

87 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:13:58pm

The NSA doesn’t spy on people. People spy on people.

88 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:14:19pm

I wonder how Sirota would feel if someone posted a photo of Obama shooting at HIM.

89 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:14:53pm

re: #19 lawhawk

Where to start with all this.

-cut-

What it reveals is that Greenwald is railing against the entirety of national security and intel gathering - essentials for any nation-state operating around the world. Greenwald’s statements indicate that he’s got the worldview of a 2-year old who doesn’t understand, and doesn’t want to understand, that there are bad people and bad things, and that governments can and do spy on each other to know what’s going on behind their back.

This all makes me wonder if there is anything in his past that really concerns him about privacy issues that when added to his study as a civil rights lawyer and the opportunity Snowden presented make him scream hello opportunity…payback time. There seems to be relish mixed with arrogance that he is showing a whole world up like he has always wanted to do.

90 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:14:58pm

re: #88 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder how Sirota would feel if someone posted a photo of Obama shooting at HIM.

Heroic.

91 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:15:48pm

“Sir, we’ve run across a defense we can’t seem to penetrate on a target under investigation.”

“Oh well, don’t come up with any ways to get around it. That would be wrong.”

Said by no one in security operations ever.

92 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:16:43pm

Now Sirota is saying anonymous quotes are ‘open’ and ‘direct’. What the fuck kind of journalist is that?

No kind of journalist.

93 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:17:03pm

re: #84 Kragar

When the targeting and the exploits are highly automated, how can there be any meaningful oversight? Have you not noticed that principles of innocent until proven guilty have been inverted?

We’re going to need a bigger haystack.

94 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:17:22pm

The sad thing is these “get rid of the NSA” morons would be the first ones decrying the government for “not doing enough” if another Tim McVeigh came along and blew up a few hundred people.

95 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:17:36pm

re: #92 wrenchwench

Now Sirota is saying anonymous quotes are ‘open’ and ‘direct’. What the fuck kind of journalist is that?

No kind of journalist.

I have an anonymous source that says Sirota fellates roadkill.

96 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:18:42pm

re: #93 abolitionist

When the targeting and the exploits are highly automated, how can there be any meaningful oversight? Have you not noticed that principles of innocent until proven guilty have been inverted?

We’re going to need a bigger haystack.

I have never said the programs could not do with more regulation and oversight.

97 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:18:43pm

re: #95 Kragar

I have an anonymous source that says Sirota fellates roadkill.

Is that before or after Sirota sucks wet farts from dead pigeons? Just asking questions.

98 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:19:35pm

re: #95 Kragar

I have an anonymous source that says Sirota fellates roadkill.

It would be irresponsible not to at least investigate this entirely plausible claim.

99 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:19:48pm

re: #97 EPR-radar

Is that before or after Sirota sucks wet farts from dead pigeons? Just asking questions.

It would be irresponsible not to.

100 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:21:19pm

Woman makes stuffed bears for mice.

101 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:21:39pm

There are some who say that Sirota eats several handfulls of sugar-free gummy bears before using the office restroom.

RBS

102 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:21:41pm

I heard that we have Sirota to thank for Jar Jar Binks, and that he’s the reason Firefly was cancelled.

103 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:22:03pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson
re: #77 erik_t


What did it for me personally is going to Russia. More sharply-Putins Russia. I figure Russia has all the data Snowden stole.

How I characterize a thief-What does he do with the goods? He took them to our big opponent on the world stage. He’s reaching for some kind of Robin Hood status with “whistleblower”. If he had gone to the UN, Australia, or just underground in a neutral country I might think differently.

104 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:22:47pm

As for innocent until proven guilty, law enforcement all over the world have investigated innocent people for centuries. How do you make sure you only investigate guilty people for anonymous activities?

105 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:23:04pm
106 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:23:41pm
107 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:24:44pm
108 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:25:55pm

re: #102 goddamnedfrank

I heard that we have Sirota to thank for Jar Jar Binks, and that he’s the reason Firefly was cancelled.

Image: flipping-table-gif.gif

109 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:32:22pm

re: #91 Kragar

“Sir, we’ve run across a defense we can’t seem to penetrate on a target under investigation.”

“Oh well, don’t come up with any ways to get around it. That would be wrong.”

Said by no one in security operations ever.

Actually the idea that “Gentlemen do not read other Gentlemen’s mail” has damaged America more than once. Henry Stimson as Secretary of State said it explicitly when abolishing the Cypher Bureau but the attitude has poisoned reality more than once.

110 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:32:38pm

re: #59 lawhawk

Even the Pentagon Papers isn’t a good analogy.

It didn’t reveal means and methods for intel or military actions forthcoming.

It was about revealing just how we had been losing the Vietnam War and that the studies Ellsberg and others had put together indicated that we would not win.

That’s a huge difference from a document dump that included means and methods on intel gathering on foreign countries, regimes, and terror groups in active operations.

And thus you have summed up what is dangerous about the media and how people soak it all up only to a point. People want to get pissed off and they aren’t learning enough fact to know of the detail of the NSA program and the damage that is actually being caused by what you mention about dangerous info, methods, names and addresses that our enemies now know.

111 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:35:18pm

re: #69 Pie-onist Overlord

No, Ellsberg didn’t run to Russia with his stash. He stayed and faced the music.

Ellsberg is also wrong for admiring Snowden.

Snowden is still a shitbag.

Ellsberg also admires Julian Assange. Like those he admires, Ellsberg is another privileged white man who got ego gratification in becoming famous for pointing out what he thought were grave mistakes in governance. He was working for the Rand Corp, after a stint w/the State Dept in Vietnam and before that in the Defense Dept, when he revealed the Pentagon Papers. Until that point, Ellsberg had not taken part in any civil rights activities and wasn’t well known in the the anti-war movement, and, in fact, did not become well known until the Pentagon Papers were published in the NYT without his prior knowledge in 1971. It was only a chance meeting with an anti-war activist in 1969 that changed his mind about Vietnam.

Ellsberg never really had to work very hard to “get something” on the US govt. It was right there, he had worked on it in an official capacity, he knew exactly what it said, and he knew how to steal it. Very much like Snowden, with whom he compares with himself. So on that point, yes, they’re very much alike.

OTOH, the Vietnam War was a result of Cold War policy that was outdated, the “Domino Theory” being invoked, and like the French before us, the US was not going to change the hearts and minds of the former anti-colonialists and others who saw communism as an alternative to foreign domination. It was an unpopular war before Ellsberg became involved and continued to be. Ellsberg traveled in much loftier circles than most anti-war protestors, both politically and socially. Nevertheless, the Nixon admin began a vendetta against Ellsberg that indeed did violate his civil rights, including warrantless wiretaps, the break-in of his psychiatrist’s office, and other shenanigans by the FBI. Ellsberg can be commended for bringing the truth about Vietnam to light, but to compare what he did to what Snowden did is just wrong.

112 makeitstop  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:35:40pm

re: #107 wrenchwench

UPDATED: Sirota thinks Buzzfeed quotes = the administration floating the idea of assassinating Snowden.

I really like Cesca. But Arcnor’s comment is really worth clicking through for. Hilarious.

113 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:36:56pm

re: #101 RealityBasedSteve

There are some who say that Sirota eats several handfulls of sugar-free gummy bears before using the office restroom.

RBS

Ahhh…that explains those tweets!

Open the window! /

114 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:37:23pm

re: #104 Kragar

As for innocent until proven guilty, law enforcement all over the world have investigated innocent people for centuries. How do you make sure you only investigate guilty people for anonymous activities?

Having one’s computer compromised/infected and one’s private data exfiltrated without any warrant or official finding of guilt seems to me like extra-judicial punishment.

[tinfoil hat] I’m still trying to figure out how several ShieldsUP scans of my IP address in December indicated over two thirds of 1056 ports scanned as being open, ie, there were positive responses to TCP connection requests to my IP address from a service provided by grc.com when my computer was behind two routers.[/tinfoil hat]

115 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 1:47:10pm

re: #114 abolitionist

The NSA doesn’t just sit around saying “Lets go infect a bunch of computers and see what we can find!” You do realize that, right?

They identify systems based on information at hand and investigate them.

Does this process needed to be regulated and managed to ensure its done properly? Of course.

Should it be stopped because an innocent person might be targeted and dismissed after analysis? Don’t be ridiculous.

116 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 2:04:12pm

re: #115 Kragar

Of course they don’t sit around saying such stuff. They’ve automated much of it, which of course, provides them benefits of plausible deniability. So and so was not specifically targeted; no human ever looked at the findings, so there was no actual search; and so forth.

117 petesh  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 2:05:50pm

re: #111 Justanotherhuman

Ellsberg’s leaks also effectively defended the CIA, and his own work as an analyst. The key secret they revealed was that the executive branch disregarded or overruled intelligence findings in pursuit of a misguided Cold-War agenda. Thus, CIA correctly assessed the popular support for the Viet Cong, and their chances of surviving and indeed winning. I can understand Ellsberg’s support for limiting secrecy but I am disappointed he doesn’t take a more nuanced position about Snowden.

118 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 2:07:50pm

re: #117 petesh

Welcome, hatchling.

119 AntonSirius  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 2:13:45pm

re: #82 jaunte

It’s not really Obama it’s just pixels!!!

Ceci n’est-ce pas un Obama

120 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 2:15:13pm

re: #116 abolitionist

Am I reading your arguments correctly in that you are essentially arguing that there is no way to make sure this is never used against an innocent person and therefore the entire thing should be shut down?

By that innocent before proven guilty principle you cited above, everyone is technically innocent until convicted in a court of law.

121 petesh  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 3:35:55pm

re: #118 wrenchwench

Merciful buttercups. I’ve been lurking awhile …

122 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 3:51:13pm

re: #120 klys

Am I reading your arguments correctly in that you are essentially arguing that there is no way to make sure this is never used against an innocent person and therefore the entire thing should be shut down?

By that innocent before proven guilty principle you cited above, everyone is technically innocent until convicted in a court of law.

I appreciate that innocent people are routinely questioned/investigated —by duly authorized people. My opinion is that highly automated surveilance and data gathering/analysis of everyone everywhere 24/7 is a grave danger, as it implies abandonment of principles of due process of law, principles that are usually tempered and moderated by human judgement at all levels. It implies a presumption of guilt by default.

Looking back:

OBL openly delared war on the US and US interests in the 1990s and later, by words and by deeds. In doing so, he forfeited any right to a presumption of innocence.

The intelligence methods, tools and infrastructure that we threw together, at great expense, to “get” OBL was successful. But a presumption of innocence was never a major guiding principle in that overall process, and likely was never even a minor one.

That there were dangerous bad guys to be found and neutralized was a given. Everyone anywhere was a suspect by default —a possible terrorist until investigations/data/intel indicated a negligibly low probability of membership in that set.

That same infrastructure has grown significantly since the demise of OBL. It is being re-purposed in a multitude of ways, and there is much financial, governmental and institutional inertia in it.

Adjusting complex tools of war to comply with longstanding principles of civil law can be difficult.


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