Russia Continues Moving on Ukraine, US Republicans Continue Attacking Obama

Remember when it was considered bad form to take a foreign country’s side against the US?
World • Views: 17,704

The situation in Crimea continues to deteriorate, as US right wing politicians seize the opportunity to attack President Obama and demand MOAR WAR.

WASHINGTON — As Russia dispatched more forces and tightened its grip on the Crimean Peninsula on Sunday, President Obama embarked on a strategy intended to isolate Moscow and prevent it from seizing more Ukrainian territory even as he was pressured at home to respond more forcefully.

Working the telephone from the Oval Office, Mr. Obama rallied allies, agreed to send Secretary of State John Kerry to Kiev and approved a series of diplomatic and economic moves intended to “make it hurt,” as one administration official put it. But the president found himself besieged by advice to take more assertive action.

“Create a democratic noose around Putin’s Russia,” urged Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina. “Revisit the missile defense shield,” suggested Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida. “Cancel Sochi,” argued Representative Mike Rogers, the Michigan Republican who leads the Intelligence Committee, referring to the Group of 8 summit meeting to be hosted by President Vladimir V. Putin. Kick “him out of the G-8” altogether, said Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the Democratic whip.

By the way, Lindsay Graham didn’t just say, “Create a democratic noose around Russia,” he also called the President “weak and indecisive.”

Sen. Lindsey Graham said on Sunday that President Barack Obama needs to “stop going on television and trying to threaten thugs and dictators.”

“It is not your strong suit. Every time the president goes on national television and threatens [Russian leader Vladimir] Putin or anyone like Putin, everyone’s eyes roll, including mine,” the South Carolina Republican said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

Addressing the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Graham said the United States has a “weak and indecisive president that invited aggression.”

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361 comments
1 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:21:00am
2 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:21:57am
3 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:22:15am
4 Aqua Obama  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:22:49am

Pravda:

“Right now Putin is one step away from being a true world leader, the personification of Russia being released from the hegemony of the United States. He is passing a historic test, this is the moment of truth for us Russians”

if anyone was wondering what this was about

5 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:10am

Jesus Christ, these people are just dumber than fucking posts.

BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACKITY BLACK

6 ausador  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:17am

If only Patton could have gotten them to listen to him in 1945, WWII could have gone on for at least another four or five years. Russia might not even be a problem anymore, well either that or all of Europe would be speaking Russian by now…

/

7 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:27am

I would love to see the wingnut plans for an invasion of Russia, or how they would put boots on the ground to “solve” this issue.

8 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:38am

re: #2 Pie-onist Overlord

More projection from people quivering in fear that someone might make them get gay married.

9 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:41am
10 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:23:43am

History began on January 20, 2009.

11 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:04am

American-Russian relationships began on January 20, 2009.

12 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:23am

Ukrainian history began on January 20, 2009.

13 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:34am

Crimean history began on January 20, 2009.

14 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:37am
Remember when it was considered bad form to take a foreign country’s side against the US?

But that was before the crime of Presidentin’ While Blah!

15 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:42am

Reagan would have kicked that commie Castro out of Cuba.

16 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:24:52am

“Russia wants the territory of Ukraine” is not exactly an earth-shattering geopolitical insight, but I suppose we’re grading on a very very steep curve for Caribou Barbie.

17 Official Lab Rat In Gay Radical Experiment  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:25:42am

Wingnuts like violent men, not smart men.

18 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:26:13am

What is cool/sad is the way that most of the critics, especially those deriding the UN/NATO/Obama for just using words, having meetings, etc., will not actually come out and say what it is they want.

I actually have an iota of respect for the hawks calling for a military strike because they’re actually willing to include a plan (a terrible, fucked-up plan) along with their criticism.

But shit like Graham:

“Georgia is trying to seek NATO admission through the membership action plan. Let’s accelerate Georgia’s admission into NATO. Moldavia is under siege by Russia. Let’s help Moldavia,” the South Carolina Republican said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

Graham continued to say that he would reengage Poland and the Czech Republic regarding missile defense, and increase military presence in the Balkans.

“To NATO members who are threatened by Russia, I’d fly the NATO flag as strongly as I could around Putin,” Graham said

What kind of a plan is that? Fly the flag strongly? There’s one concrete thing here—accelerate Georgia’s entry into NATO, something which almost certainly is occurring now—the rest of it is flag-waving. And yet Graham has the nerve to pretend he and the president are somehow far away in how to respond to this crisis.

What an asshole.

19 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:28:07am

re: #18 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

[quote]”To NATO members who are threatened by Russia, I’d fly the NATO flag as strongly as I could around Putin,” Graham said.[/quote]

What kind of a plan is that? Fly the flag strongly?

But not in a butch gay way, right?

20 Official Lab Rat In Gay Radical Experiment  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:28:16am

This whole super love for Putin is so weird.

21 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:28:45am

re: #18 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What kind of a plan is that? Fly the flag whitely and Reaganly?

FTFY, at least for Graham’s knuckledragging constituency.

22 Official Lab Rat In Gay Radical Experiment  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:29:11am

re: #19 chadu

I am all for flying the gay flag strongly around Putin!

23 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:29:25am
24 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:29:32am

re: #10 Gus

re: #11 Gus

re: #12 Gus

re: #13 Gus

NO THE COLLAPSE OF THE UNITED STATES OF A MURICA STARTED ON JANUARY 20TH 2009!!!

25 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:30:56am

Repost:

A Little War that Shook the World: Georgia, Russia, and the Future of the West
by Ronald Asmus

The brief war between Russia and Georgia in August 2008 seemed to many like an unexpected shot out of the blue that was gone as quickly as it came. Former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Ronald Asmus contends that it was a conflict that was prepared and planned for some time by Moscow, part of a broader strategy to send a message to the United States: that Russia is going to flex its muscle in the twenty-first century. A Little War that Shook the World is a fascinating look at the breakdown of relations between Russia and the West, the decay and decline of the Western Alliance itself, and the fate of Eastern Europe…

Comment there.

This is a valuable overview of the politics and diplomacy around the 2008 Georgian-Russian war. Asmus argues that the war needs to be primarily understood not in terms of a local secessionist dispute, but rather in terms of the overall Russian-Western relationship, especially in the context of EU/NATO expansion and Kosovo’s independence.

By the early 2000s Russia observed that many of its traditional satellites were moving towards the EU and NATO. Asmus argues that in response, Russia was increasingly drawn back towards a 19th century model, where a leading Great Power, such as Russia, was entitled to have a sphere of influence within which it could control major foreign policy issues.

By 2008, Georgia and Ukraine were requesting a Membership Action Plan (“MAP”) to join NATO. Russia was strongly opposed to this. After much discussion, NATO declined to offer either country a MAP but instead stated that both countries would join NATO in the future. Asmus notes that this response clearly ignored Russia’s true concern, which was of course around NATO membership, not MAPs. Russia seems to have been particularly vexed by its intended client Georgia’s aggressively pro-Western stance and to have believed that there was now a limited time window in which it could act to prevent Georgian NATO membership.

Asmus also notes that Kosovo’s independence in early 2008 amounted to a unilateral restructuring of Russia’s client Serbia, without the consent of either Serbia or Russia. The West saw this as a reluctant necessity, in the face of ethnic cleansing and intransigence. But from Russia’s perspective, the West’s behavior around Kosovo was unilateral, bypassing the UN Security Council and breaking the established rules of the game. Asmus suggests that Russia thus felt both entitled and motivated to respond in kind.

Asmus then describes the growing tensions around Georgia’s breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and the final descent into war. Asmus argues that Russia appears to have been intent on launching a full scale invasion and that this can be demonstrated by a major Russian military build-up ahead of the conflict. As events unfolded, Georgia’s President Saakashvili ordered Georgia’s troops to the attack, but Asmus portrays this as occurring within the context of a premeditated Russian invasion, which had the aim of de facto Russian annexation of Georgia’s secessionist regions and the overthrow of Saakashvili’s pro-Western government.

French President Sarkozy successfully negotiated a cease fire, which preserved Tbilisi from invasion and allowed Saakashvili’s government to survive, but which also allowed Russia to benefit from much of its gains. Asmus suggests that the US deliberately stood back from the negotiations to avoid having the situation escalate into a direct US-Russian confrontation and to force the EU to have a stake in resolving the situation. Asmus notes that Russia’s actions have weakened Georgia, but he urges the West to continue supporting Georgia’s democratization and European membership.

Overall this is an exceptionally thorough, well written, and nuanced analysis. (And of course I am only touching on that analysis in this short review.) Asmus had previously worked as a US diplomat on many of the underlying issues, such as NATO expansion. While there is some risk of bias, this gives him an exceptional background for analyzing the thorny context and for trying to explain how and why Russia, Georgia and the West behaved in the ways they did.

26 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:32:14am

re: #23 Pie-onist Overlord

Photoshop: The wingnut’s #1 solution to international crises.

27 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:34:27am

re: #26 jaunte

Photoshop: The wingnut’s #1 solution to international crises.

Is that Charles shopped into the background?

28 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:35:17am

RONNIE WOULD HAVE NUKED THERE COMMIE ASSES BY NOW!!1!

29 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:35:21am

Everything has been about 9/11, GWOT, Muslims!, and terrorist to this point.

30 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:35:45am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

I don’t see it.

31 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:36:29am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

Is that Charles shopped into the background?

Holy shit I did not see that.

32 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:37:38am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

No, that isn’t me.

33 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:37:47am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

Holy shit I did not see that.

I think that’s just some dude.

34 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:38:04am

re: #30 jaunte

I don’t see it.

Right under the small r in river. Looks like one of his early jazz band photos.

Then again, I just might be seeing things.

35 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:38:11am

re: #23 Pie-onist Overlord

Don’t agree with the sentiment, but that one is particularly well done and actually somewhat humorous.

36 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:38:23am

Brzezinski: Formally recognize Ukraine, prepare NATO troops

…we should let the Russians know we are not going to be passive. First, we have to formally recognize the new government in Ukraine, which I believe expresses the will of the people there. It is the legitimate government. And interference in Ukrainian affairs should be considered a hostile act by a foreign power
Further, we should put NATO contingency plans into operation, deploying forces in Central Europe so we are in a position to respond if war should break out and spread..

Zbigniew Brzezinski

Polish American political scientist, geostrategist, and statesman who served as United States National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981.

37 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:38:33am

re: #32 Charles Johnson

No, that isn’t me.

I’m seeing things then. :-)

38 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:39:38am

re: #35 Eclectic Cyborg

Don’t agree with the sentiment, but that one is particularly well done and actually somewhat humorous.

ThePeoplesCube has superior graphics skills to the usual crap that the wingnuts spam on TCOT, but their memes are still lame as shit.

39 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:39:53am

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Brzezinski: Formally recognize Ukraine, prepare NATO troops

Zbigniew Brzezinski

See, there you go. Ukraine is still not recognized. Not since at least 2008.

40 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:39:56am

Some people just aren’t happy unless they’ve got a war to fight.

41 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:40:09am

Reminds me of “Registered” who used to post at FreeRepublic back in the day.

42 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:41:06am

FM Davutoğlu rules out Turkish-Russian crisis over Crimea

The Turkish government will not allow the tension in Russian-seized Crimea to trigger a crisis with Russia, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu has said, describing the crisis in the Black Sea peninsula as a problem for Ukraine and the international community.

43 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:42:40am

re: #38 Pie-onist Overlord

Years ago, the People’s Cube website was ejected from Google’s search results because they loaded up their pages with invisible text in order to “game” Google’s search results.

44 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:42:53am

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Brzezinski: Formally recognize Ukraine, prepare NATO troops

Zbigniew Brzezinski

Tweeted the Brzezinski link. Getting quite a bit of agreement.

45 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:43:11am

re: #39 Gus

See, there you go. Ukraine is still not recognized. Not since at least 2008.

There are a lot of options but I’m wary of painting ourselves into a corner. I’m all for getting tough or at least making things very difficult for the Russians but I’m worried about half measures, broken promises and generally losing interest in a few months.

46 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:43:53am

Russian markets hit as Putin tightens grip on Crimea

The Moscow stock market fell by 10 percent and the central bank spent $10 billion of its reserves to prop up the rouble as investors took fright at escalating tensions with the West over the former Soviet republic.

47 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:44:09am

48 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:44:14am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

There are a lot of options but I’m wary of painting ourselves into a corner. I’m all for getting tough or at least making things very difficult for the Russians >but I’m worried about half measures, broken promises and generally losing interest in a few months.

Months, or days.

49 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:44:15am

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Years ago, the People’s Cube website was ejected from Google’s search results because they loaded up their pages with invisible text in order to “game” Google’s search results.

I remember that old trick. Other sites used to do a similar thing where they’d bury a pile of keywords deep down on the page in like, size 6 font.

50 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:44:55am

re: #44 Gus

Tweeted the Brzezinski link. Getting quite a bit of agreement.

It’s a good article, I’m still thinking about it but at least the ideas seem serious and somewhat realistic.

51 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:45:13am

re: #46 jaunte

Russian markets hit as Putin tightens grip on Crimea

I wonder what the over/under is on Putin getting ahold of some bitcoins.

52 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:45:17am

re: #28 b.d.

RONNIE WOULD HAVE NUKED THERE COMMIE ASSES BY NOW!!1!

53 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:45:25am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

There are a lot of options but I’m wary of painting ourselves into a corner. I’m all for getting tough or at least making things very difficult for the Russians >but I’m worried about half measures, broken promises and generally losing interest in a few months.

What does ‘getting tough’ mean in concrete terms? To me, that’s just a weasel-word that can mean anything at all.

54 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:45:25am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

There are a lot of options but I’m wary of painting ourselves into a corner. I’m all for getting tough or at least making things very difficult for the Russians >but I’m worried about half measures, broken promises and generally losing interest in a few months.

55 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:46:10am

re: #51 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder what the over/under is on Putin getting ahold of some bitcoins.

I wouldn’t be too surprised if Bitcoin turned out to be Putin’s idea.

56 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:46:51am

re: #29 Gus

Everything has been about 9/11, GWOT, Muslims!, and terrorist to this point.

Given the bizarre high school crush type of praise so many have for Putin, I’m sort of surprised they didn’t do the same with OBL, when he was alive.

Speaking of, I’m pretty sure the terrorists will see this as a win-win situation for them. Lord only know what kind of crap they’ll be up to while the world is distracted with this.

57 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:46:55am

re: #53 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What does ‘getting tough’ mean in concrete terms? To me, that’s just a weasel-word that can mean anything at all.

Ducktail, pegged jeans, leather jacket, pack of smokes rolled up in the short sleeve of your t-shirt?

58 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:47:22am

REMEMBER TEH BRAVE WORDS OF OUR SAVIOR RONALD WHEN HE SAID TEH BOMBING BEGINS IN FIVE MINUTES1!!!!! THEN HE SMASHED DOWN TEH BERLIN WALL BY HIMSELF!!!!!1!!!!

59 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:47:33am

re: #54 Gus

[Embedded content]

Nice. Just something you should know. Rense has uncovered a dark secret: Confirmed - Obama Is Zbigniew Brzezinski Puppet

60 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:47:37am

Zbignwqop Brszawqtyvp (sorry, I always have trouble with his name) has some suggestions that seem sound (originally tweeted by Gus): Brzezinski: Formally Recognize Ukraine, Prepare NATO Troops

61 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:48:24am

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Zbignwqop Brszawqtyvp (sorry, I always have trouble with his name) has some suggestions that seem sound (originally tweeted by Gus): Brzezinski: Formally Recognize Ukraine, Prepare NATO Troops

Call him Z-Biggie, like all the cool kids do.

Okay, I’m the only one who does that.

62 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:48:57am

WEE WILL DEFEND ARE FREEDUMBZ WITH ARE GUNZ AN ARE FAKE QUOTEZ AN ARE TWITTER MEMES!!!!!!

63 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:49:28am
64 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:49:34am

re: #62 Pie-onist Overlord

Looks like Colbert’s designer is moonlighting.

65 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:50:12am

“don’t you think it’s unpatriotic to criticize the president in time of war?”

- sean hannity, 2004, 2005, 2006

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:50:27am

re: #63 Gus

[Embedded content]

It’s true because it rhymes.

67 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:51:13am

re: #66 Killgore Trout

It’s true because it rhymes.

Use the banks not the tanks!

68 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:51:35am

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Zbignwqop Brszawqtyvp (sorry, I always have trouble with his name) has some suggestions that seem sound (originally tweeted by Gus): Brzezinski: Formally Recognize Ukraine, Prepare NATO Troops

brz

i pronounce it by making a sound like an electric razor

i think that’s pretty close

69 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:51:53am

re: #67 Gus

Seize him by the Swiss francs!

70 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:52:56am

Of course so far it looks like the UK is good with the Russian cash flow.

71 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:53:06am

re: #53 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What does ‘getting tough’ mean in concrete terms? To me, that’s just a weasel-word that can mean anything at all.

For the GOP, it means anything other than what President Obama is doing. Fact is that any GOP candidate would be in the same position as Obama re: Ukraine - limited options, and even fewer military options. Indeed, the military would be off the table.

Getting tough can be anything from signaling war games starting somewhere to missile defense tests or accelerating troop deployment or ship movements into a region that Russia might not welcome or have considered.

Heck, it could include economic moves, like watching the Russia market drop 10% in a day (and could drop further as the crisis wears on). Or calling on the Saudis to boost oil production to lower price of oil, undermining price/economy support in Russia.

Etc.

72 Internet Tough Guy  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:54:36am

Putin will see “preparing NATO troops” as a pretext for an invasion and strike first.

It’s not like the thought hasn’t crossed their mind before,

73 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:54:48am

re: #62 Pie-onist Overlord

WEE WILL DEFEND ARE FREEDUMBZ WITH ARE GUNZ AN ARE FAKE QUOTEZ AN ARE TWITTER MEMES!!!!!!

[Embedded content]

You know, I used to like bald eagles, but the last decade and a half is starting to wear on my enjoyment of that symbolism.

74 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:54:51am

Drive down oil prices

In an overnight note to clients, Verleger argues that if the US were to ship just 500,000 barrels a day of oil onto the market, it would drive down prices by about $10 a barrel and cost Russia about $40 billion in annual sales. The US could keep doing this for years, he says. “[Russia’s] GDP might drop 4%, which would certainly count as a ‘consequence,’” he says. Half would come from lower oil prices and half from gas sales, whose prices Russia indexes to oil.
qz.com

75 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:56:19am

re: #39 Gus

See, there you go. Ukraine is still not recognized. Not since at least 2008.

They dropped their NATO membership bid under Yanukovich in 2010. I wonder how quickly they could reinstate it and get accepted? I’m guessing things like that in an organization the size of NATO don’t move super fast, even in emergency situations. We’ll see what happens…

76 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:56:36am

Oh just what we need, another war driven by oil.

77 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:56:46am

re: #73 chadu

You know, I used to like bald eagles, but the last decade and a half is starting to wear on my enjoyment of that symbolism.

U CAN TELLS WHO IS TEH MOAST PATRIOTIC BY HOW MUCH TEH FLAGS & EAGLES & GUNZ & COLONIAL DUDES IS IN THERE TWITTER FEED!!!!!1!!!

78 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:57:15am

my best guess is that russia takes over the crimea and occupies it basically forever

79 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:57:18am
80 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:57:56am

re: #77 Pie-onist Overlord

U CAN TELLS WHO IS TEH MOAST PATRIOTIC BY HOW MUCH TEH FLAGS & EAGLES & GUNZ & COLONIAL DUDES IS IN THERE TWITTER FEED!!!!!1!!!

Ah, so it’s a contest.

81 lgffan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:58:20am

re: #32 Charles Johnson

Derek Trucks maybe?

82 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:58:22am

re: #70 Gus

Of course so far it looks like the UK is good with the Russian cash flow.

I think the Germans are content as well.

83 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:59:18am

Is Grasswire credible?

84 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:59:36am

re: #82 Killgore Trout

I think the Germans are content as well.

Yep. Spain and Italy might roll over too. Looks like it’ll be France and Poland.

85 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:59:43am

re: #76 Eclectic Cyborg

Oh just what we need, another war driven by oil.

We don’t need oil, we ride the bus!

86 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:00:00pm

I think the State department would have a difficulty in recognizing the new Ukrainian government as valid. State, like lawyers, is as concerned with precedent and process as anything else. Ukraine has scheduled presidential elections but not parliamentary ones.

Other than that, I don’t see anything in Brzezinski’s plan to avoid war and military confrontation. Some oddballs are focusing on the ‘prepare NATO forces’ part as though that’s the most substantial thing he said, but he’s mostly focused, as a good diplomat should be, on avoiding war. He doesn’t, for example, even call for a return of the Crimea to the Ukraine. He says that Russia may very well get the Crimea.

His judicious and sober language is a long way from people puffing up their chests and calling for ‘getting tough’.

87 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:00:27pm

re: #76 Eclectic Cyborg

Oh just what we need, another war driven by oil.

That’s why Putin is doing this. Amongst other things.

88 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:00:28pm

re: #84 Gus

Yep. Spain and Italy might roll over too. Looks like it’ll be France and Poland.

Frapoland would be a nice catchy name for the alliance.

89 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:00:46pm

The oil will flow regardless.

90 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:01:16pm

Which is what Germany seems to be thinking.

91 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:01:24pm

re: #87 Gus

That’s why Putin is doing this. Amongst other things.

It’s more gas than oil in this case. Energy.

And a warm-water port, which now sounds like a kind of alcohol to me since I’ve heard people say it so much.

92 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:01:31pm

Gazprom

93 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:01:43pm

re: #91 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s more gas than oil in this case. Energy.

And a warm-water port, which now sounds like a kind of alcohol to me since I’ve heard people say it so much.

Yep.

94 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:02:07pm

Gas flow for Gazprom and the Black Sea Fleet ports.

95 Jack Burton  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:02:12pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Zbignwqop Brszawqtyvp (sorry, I always have trouble with his name) has some suggestions that seem sound (originally tweeted by Gus): Brzezinski: Formally Recognize Ukraine, Prepare NATO Troops

In that he says:

Further, we should put NATO contingency plans into operation, deploying forces in Central Europe so we are in a position to respond if war should break out and spread.

This isn’t Battlefield 4. He does realize the military option in this could go to a ‘Civilization Ending Event’ rather quickly right?

96 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:03:02pm
97 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:03:32pm

re: #77 Pie-onist Overlord

U CAN TELLS WHO IS TEH MOAST PATRIOTIC BY HOW MUCH TEH FLAGS & EAGLES & GUNZ & COLONIAL DUDES IS IN THERE TWITTER FEED!!!!!1!!!

re: #80 chadu

Ah, so it’s a contest.

I win.

98 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:04:26pm

re: #95 Jack Burton

In that he says:

This isn’t Battlefield 4. He does realize the military option in this could go to a ‘Civilization Ending Event’ rather quickly right?

Yes, that last bit is never going to happen. Recognizing Ukraine is a good idea, however.

99 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:04:46pm
100 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:05:19pm

re: #98 Charles Johnson

Yes, that last bit is never going to happen. Recognizing Ukraine is a good idea, however.

I miss seeing Tibet on maps.

101 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:05:22pm

re: #96 Gus

“The real substance of Russian politics is the extraction of billions of dollars from the nation and shuttling them into tropical Western tax havens, which is why Russian politics needs perpetual PR and perpetual Putinist drama to keep all this hidden from the Russian people.”

102 kirkspencer  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:05:35pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Zbignwqop Brszawqtyvp (sorry, I always have trouble with his name) has some suggestions that seem sound (originally tweeted by Gus): Brzezinski: Formally Recognize Ukraine, Prepare NATO Troops

So who is going to pay for that deployment?

103 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:05:45pm

Still, no matter what I think that this was a mistake by Russia. Not as big as a mistake as the US made going into Iraq, but Russia has a much shallower reserve of power and a much weaker economy, so this may wind up costing them a lot more.

Sebastapol is an important ‘hero city’ from WWII, and the myth-making that Putin and his comrades have done in order to play up Russian nationalism places a great importance on such things. To the extent that Putin is a rational actor, this seems much more like a move forced by internal politics than some grand masterstroke. The best-case scenario—they have to build an entire new infrastructure around the Crimea, on the east side of it where there is currently not very much at all. They gain a warm-water port and the economic benefit of that, but foreign investment in Russia is not going to bounce back. A nation capable of doing this is easily capable of nationalizing any company that it decides to—especially a foreign company.

104 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:06:33pm

re: #95 Jack Burton

In that he says:

This isn’t Battlefield 4. He does realize the military option in this could go to a ‘Civilization Ending Event’ rather quickly right?

What has civilization done for you lately?

105 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:06:41pm

re: #95 Jack Burton

In that he says:

This isn’t Battlefield 4. He does realize the military option in this could go to a ‘Civilization Ending Event’ rather quickly right?

The way the article is being spun makes him sound a lot more warlike than he is. Every bit of what he says we should do is to avoid military conflict.

106 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:07:15pm
107 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:07:39pm

OK, I’m cool with Kasparov again.

108 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:08:40pm

re: #105 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The way the article is being spun makes him sound a lot more warlike than he is. Every bit of what he says we should do is to avoid military conflict.

Basically arguing for a “show of force.”

109 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:09:09pm


Too bad Kobach actually got what he was after from the deal: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

110 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:10:01pm

U.S. assures Ukraine neighbor Moldova of support
Unless it’s too expensive, too difficult, might lead to war or the Russians just want your real estate too much…in which case you’re on your own.

111 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:10:01pm

Although something tells me even if they did mass a show of force Russia and Putin won’t care and carry on.

112 Kragar  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:11:00pm


Yeah, Chechens will calm everything down.
/

113 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:11:19pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Frapoland would be a nice catchy name for the alliance.

I had to do a double take. At first I thought you’d typed “Fapoland”.

lolol

114 Archangelus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:12:05pm

re: #65 dog philosopher

“don’t you think it’s unpatriotic to criticize the president in time of war?”

- sean hannity, 2004, 2005, 2006

Flying Spaghetti Monster help me, I’m in at least partial agreement with sean hannity!!!! Aaaaahhh!!!!!
* Flees in horror while screaming in a manner that’s only slightly girlish *

115 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:12:31pm

re: #111 Gus

Although something tells me even if they did mass a show of force Russia and Putin won’t care and carry on.

You might be right. Even mobilizing the troops would be difficult enough. Actually using them is even more unlikely. That’s why I’m worried about half measure. Mobilize troops only if you’re prepared to use them. If not it’s best to just stay home.

116 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:12:57pm

President Barack Obama Says Putin Is on ‘Wrong Side of History’ | TIME.com

President Barack Obama said Monday that if Russia continues an incursion into the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea, the United States would take diplomatic and economic steps to “isolate” the country.

Speaking to reporters in a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Obama said that invading the Ukrainian territory was a “violation of international law” that puts Russian President Vladimir Putin “on the wrong side of history.”

“What cannot be done is for Russia with impunity to put its soldiers on the ground and violate basic principles that are recognized around the world,” Obama said. Qualifying his threat on Friday that “there will be costs” for a Russian invasion, Obama added, “Over time this will be a costly proposition for Russia.”

State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki told reporters Monday that it was “likely” the United States and allies would pursue sanctions against Russia.

This is really all the US can do, on its own. The proper agency to deal with this problem in a serious way is NATO, but it looks like several NATO allies are too beholden to Russia for that to happen.

117 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:13:17pm
118 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:13:51pm

re: #2 Pie-onist Overlord

Listening to the wingnuts bitch about the ‘girly man President’ and all the rest of the shit they are spewing I hear this person speaking.

Youtube Video

119 Internet Tough Guy  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:15:43pm

re: #117 Gus

Wow it wasn’t GOHMERT this time.

120 Kragar  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:15:44pm

Kadyrov personally ready to go to Ukraine

Ah, they plan to go into to help the Russians, yeah, that is even better.

That will go over well.

121 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:15:46pm

Putin Doesn’t Know What He Wants in Ukraine | New Republic

What Russia is trying to accomplish in the Crimea is not clear even in the Kremlin, it seems. Over the last few days, I have carefully read all the statements made by Russian officials; I’ve spoken with many of them. I’ve heard dozens of explanations of Russia’s actions in the Crimea: the defense of military bases, the defense of Russian citizens, reacting to an untrustworthy new government in Kiev. And yet I couldn’t get a clear answer to the simple question of “why?” More and more, I find the Russian position on the Crimea resembles a mad dashing back and forth: Valentina Matvienko, the speaker of the Federation Council, who on Saturday had voiced support for sending Russian troops to Crimea, had completely rejected any possibility of armed conflict only days before. And over the course of the last three months, until just recently, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs had strictly warned against any intervention in Ukraine by outside actors.

It’s enough to make your head spin, especially if you’re trying to think of it as of a coherent policy. But it isn’t. And there’s been no logic in it, either. When it comes to Ukraine, there hasn’t been any for years. Russia passively looked on as the most convenient Kremlin ally, ex-prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, was sent to prison on fabricated charges, and continued to build a relationship with her jailer, Viktor Yanukovich. When he was ousted, Moscow dismissed him as having no authority, but right away granted him security guarantees on Russian territory and helped him organize a massive press-conference.

There is a Russian proverb: “To spite mom, I will freeze my ears off.” It refers to a child who won’t wear a hat in the cold simply for the sake of disobeying his mother. Russian foreign policy function exactly in this way: again and again, Moscow makes decisions that are most detrimental to Moscow itself. Elegantly juggling various principles of international law, the Russian government has been steadily spoiling its relations with its international partners.

122 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:16:18pm

He’s weird.

123 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:17:18pm
124 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:17:28pm
“To spite mom, I will freeze my ears off.”

Sounds about right.

125 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:19:04pm

re: #110 Killgore Trout

U.S. assures Ukraine neighbor Moldova of support
Unless it’s too expensive, too difficult, might lead to war or the Russians just want your real estate too much…in which case you’re on your own.

Ukraine Neighbor Nations Seek NATO, US Security Assurances

stream.wsj.com

126 Archangelus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:19:25pm

Am I alone in thinking that now would be the ideal time and setting for someone to hit Russia with cyberwarfare capabilities?
I’m not saying that the US or NATO would/should do it, especially since non-state players could also be behind such an attack, but since conventional military options aren’t so hot in this situation and aren’t a practical measure in any aspect, I can’t shake the feeling that someone opposed to Russia (or with his/its own interests that run counter to Putin’s intentions) would view this timeframe as an opportunity…

127 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:19:47pm

Rohrabacher also said he stands by comments he made last month on RT about the Ukraine-Russia tensions. In the Feb. 22 interview, Rohrabacher said Russian President Vladimir Putin is “demonized by a lot of people here when he’s ever watching out for Russia’s self-interest.”

“We’re acting as if it was the old Cold War days, and it was a Communist overture to do something—to dominate the world,” Rohrabacher told RT. “Well, Putin has a right to watch out for the interests of the people there [Ukraine], just as the way we do in the United States, and just as the Ukrainian government should be doing watching out for the interests of the people of Ukraine.”

128 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:20:08pm

re: #126 Archangelus

Am I alone in thinking that now would be the ideal time and setting for someone to hit Russia with cyberwarfare capabilities?
I’m not saying that the US or NATO would/should do it, especially since non-state players could also be behind such an attack, but since conventional military options aren’t so hot in this situation and aren’t a practical measure in any aspect, I can’t shake the feeling that someone opposed to Russia (or with his/its own interests that run counter to Putin’s intentions) would view this timeframe as an opportunity…

Barrett Brown is still doing time.

129 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:20:58pm
130 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:21:41pm
131 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:21:59pm

re: #127 Gus

Rohrabacher also said he stands by comments he made last month >on RT about the Ukraine-Russia tensions. In the Feb. 22 interview, Rohrabacher said Russian President >Vladimir Putin is “demonized by a lot of people here when he’s ever watching out for Russia’s self-interest.”

“We’re acting as if it was the old Cold War days, and it was a Communist overture to do something—to dominate the world,” Rohrabacher told RT. “Well, Putin has a right to watch out for the interests of the people there [Ukraine], just as the way we do in the United States, and just as the Ukrainian government should be doing watching out for the interests of the people of Ukraine.”

Mystery solved. Rohrabacher ascribes the same right to Russia in the Ukraine that he and his RW buddies would reserve for us in Venezuela.

132 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:22:15pm

re: #117 Gus

Which reinforces my contention that the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War were the worst things to happen to the Republican party in recent memory. They simply cannot function without them. The GOP needs everything in black and white and as simple as possible.

Putin agrees with them that it was a tragedy, which is why he’s trying to rebuild the USSR one state at a time. No wonder they love him so much.

133 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:22:29pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Ukraine Neighbor Nations Seek NATO, US Security Assurances

stream.wsj.com

I think they’re safe for now, I doubt Putin is going to go beyond Ukrainian borders. He might not even take the whole country.

134 Internet Tough Guy  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:22:40pm

re: #129 Gus

Glenn vs. David Frum

I’m rooting for the meteors.

135 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:23:12pm

Seriously, Greenbeck? Can you please for one trivial instant even look out for yourself, and for people like you? You know how the Russian government treats gay people, right? God.

I’m not asking for him to be a saint. I’m just asking for him to act in his own fucking self-interest. He’s like a poor white GOP voter.

136 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:23:22pm

re: #127 Gus

Rohrabacher also said he stands by comments he made last month >on RT about the Ukraine-Russia tensions. In the Feb. 22 interview, Rohrabacher said Russian President >Vladimir Putin is “demonized by a lot of people here when he’s ever watching out for Russia’s self-interest.”

“We’re acting as if it was the old Cold War days, and it was a Communist overture to do something—to dominate the world,” Rohrabacher told RT. “Well, Putin has a right to watch out for the interests of the people there [Ukraine], just as the way we do in the United States, and just as the Ukrainian government should be doing watching out for the interests of the people of Ukraine.”

Between the dudebros, the tea party, and garden variety RT conspira-fans, Putin now has a far larger and more diverse fifth column in this country than the communists could ever have hoped for.

137 Chrysicat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:23:45pm

Very short O/T diversion…

138 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:24:25pm

re: #136 Shiplord Kirel

Between the dudebros, the tea party, and garden variety RT conspira-fans, Putin now has a far larger and more diverse fifth column in this country than the communists could ever have hoped for.

That needs to be cast more broadly.

139 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:24:28pm

re: #130 Gus

So is Teh GG suggesting that Snowden’s secrets are just as mythical as Saddam’s WMD’s?

If that’s the case, it would make all of Snowden’s actions a massive waste of time. Why would Russia take him in if he didn’t have anything of value?

140 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:26:19pm

re: #139 Lidane

So is Teh GG suggesting that Snowden’s secrets are just as mythical as Saddam’s WMD’s?

If that’s the case, it would make all of Snowden’s actions a massive waste of time. Why would Russia take him in if he didn’t have anything of value?

Stop thinking rationally. The Dudebro King loves you very much. He’s doing it for you. For me. For us all. Pointed questions hurt Him. Rational thought hurts Him.

All hail the Dudebro King.

141 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:26:35pm

re: #130 Gus

[Embedded content]

Mee-ow!

142 GunstarGreen  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:27:07pm

I haven’t seen this much Russian dong-schlurping since that time I watched Big-Butt Beauties XXVIII: From Russia With Love.

Kinda Nauseating, TBH.

143 Archangelus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:28:17pm

re: #142 GunstarGreen

Right, that combined with previous items left me with a mistaken and rather nasty mental image, as if things weren’t nauseating enough to begin with..

144 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:28:46pm

re: #140 Testy Toad T

Stop thinking rationally. The Dudebro King loves you very much. He’s doing it for you. For me. For us all. Pointed questions hurt Him. Rational thought hurts Him.

All hail the Dudebro King.

Hail, Glenn, hail!

145 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:29:23pm

re: #142 GunstarGreen

I haven’t seen this much Russian dong-schlurping since that time I watched Big-Butt Beauties XXVIII: From Russia With Love.

Kinda Nauseating, TBH.

In Soviet Russia, dong schlurps you!

146 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:30:18pm

Stay tuned for Red Dawn III, in which Russian special forces join American patriots and whistleblowers in battling the usurper Obama and his state controlled liberal media henchpersons.

147 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:00pm

Snowden has secrets that Russia is now finding useful!

Oh yeah! And WMD intelligence was useful to Bush too!

148 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:02pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Stay tuned for Red Dawn III, in which Russian special forces join American patriots and whistleblowers in battling the usurper Obama and his state controlled liberal media henchpersons.

“Weasels !!!”

149 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:07pm

re: #128 Decatur Deb

Barrett Brown is still doing time.

And the Russians have Snowflake to throw a cyber-shield of protection around them.

150 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:24pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Stay tuned for Red Dawn III, in which Russian special forces join American patriots and whistleblowers in battling the usurper Obama and his state controlled liberal media henchpersons.

WULVEREEEENZ!

151 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:24pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Stay tuned for Red Dawn III, in which Russian special forces join American patriots and whistleblowers in battling the usurper Obama and his state controlled liberal media henchpersons.

Will there be any black helicopters or drones?

152 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:31:41pm

re: #150 Lidane

WULVEREEEENZ!

HONEY BADGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

153 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:32:21pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Stay tuned for Red Dawn III, in which Russian special forces join American patriots and whistleblowers in battling the usurper Obama and his state controlled liberal media henchpersons.

“VOLVERINES, da?”

154 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:32:35pm

In the list of RWNJ leadership qualifications, “strong” ranks higher than “American”.

I’m not hugely surprised, I don’t know if it’s even possible to be hugely surprised anymore, but I didn’t think they’d come right out and say it.

It’s nauseating.

155 GunstarGreen  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:32:58pm

Oh, and BTW: Just taking a moment to point out that the GOP’s platform is at this point so thoroughly stuck on WHATEVER OBAMA IS FOR, WE’RE AGAINST IT!!!1!!1 that the American Right Wing is now rooting for the Russians.

Think about that for a few long moments.

156 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:33:17pm

re: #152 Gus

HONEY BADGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honey badger don’t shiv. Honey badger, he Billy Berserk.

157 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:33:22pm

re: #155 GunstarGreen

10/10, would upding again.

158 jaunte  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:34:54pm

re: #147 Gus

Snowden has secrets that Russia is now finding useful!

Oh yeah! And WMD intelligence was useful to Bush too!

Deflection screens never to be set below 11.

159 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:35:21pm

re: #151 Gus

Will there be any black helicopters or drones?

Obama tyrant DRONEZ! NSA! Eleventy!

FEMA helicopters! Death panels! Obummer takin’ mah gunz!

160 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:35:51pm
161 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:36:03pm

re: #155 GunstarGreen

the American Right Wing is now rooting for the Russians.

And to be clear, not “rooting for the Russians” in some sort of namby-pamby wishy-washy “I want them to be well-fed and happy” sort of way.

Rooting for the Russians as they’re in the midst of invading the sovereign territory of a putative ally of the United States of America.

I keep running out of ways to try to avoid using the word “treason”. It’s getting harder and harder.

162 Interesting Times  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:37:01pm

re: #117 Gus

[Embedded content]

Oh look, the same douche who once supported the Taliban:

Rohrabacher voiced support for the Taliban when they seized power in the 1990s, visiting Afghanistan when it came under their control, saying that the Taliban would provide “stability”, and eliminate threats to the United States. He also claimed the Taliban “intend to establish a disciplined, moral society”. He said he believed complete Taliban control over Afghanistan would be a “positive development”, that they were “devout traditionalists, not terrorists or revolutionaries”, and that “sensationalist” media coverage of the Taliban’s introduction of Sharia law was “nonsense”.

163 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:37:08pm

re: #160 NJDhockeyfan

What invasion?

These are Trenches of Mutual Peaceful Friendship, comrade.

164 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:37:27pm

re: #160 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Could just be latrines…
//

165 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:38:12pm
166 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:38:12pm

re: #164 Backwoods_Sleuth

Could just be latrines…
//

That’s a really shitty excuse.

167 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:38:40pm
168 GunstarGreen  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:38:46pm

re: #161 Testy Toad T

Imagine the sheer magnitude of rank, fetid pants-shitting that we’d be dealing with if, ten years ago, people had been talking about what manly, ultimate badasses Al-Queada or the Taliban were.

169 abolitionist  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:39:01pm

re: #55 jaunte

I wouldn’t be too surprised if Bitcoin turned out to be Putin’s idea.

According to my sources, Bitcoin was spawned by one or more Japanese cryptographers.

BitcoinSatoshi Nakamoto
Security Now 287: BitCoin CryptoCurrency

170 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:39:12pm

re: #166 Testy Toad T

That’s a really shitty excuse.

when ya gotta go…ya gotta go…

171 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:39:14pm

re: #160 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Going to cut it off and tow it to Tuapse.

172 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:39:25pm

re: #168 GunstarGreen

Imagine the sheer magnitude of rank, fetid pants-shitting that we’d be dealing with if, ten years ago, people had been talking about what manly, ultimate badasses Al-Queada or the Taliban were.

Bill Maher got into endless trouble for calling them ‘brave’.

173 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:41:06pm

re: #163 Testy Toad T

What invasion?

These are Trenches of Mutual Peaceful Friendship, comrade.

They got the idea from watching Bugs Bunny sever Florida from the rest of the US.
///

174 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:41:39pm

re: #162 Interesting Times

Oh look, the same douche who once supported the Taliban:

Another excellent judge of character. Of course, Charlie Wilson did the same. Same thing would happen if we got involved in Syria. It’s all pretty crazy.

175 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:42:07pm

O/T

That was a pretty good lunch, but I’m pretty sure the steak didn’t come all the way from Salisbury, nor the sprouts from Brussels or the fries from France.

176 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:42:12pm

re: #151 Gus

Will there be any black helicopters or drones?

Nah, that’s so 20th century. We have an ace in the hole in the form of our genetically engineered flying monkey legions; you know, the ones we traded all those abduction victims to the aliens for. They are poised to swarm out of their lairs at Denver Airport and Bohemian Grove and swoop down on shooting ranges, Bible churches, and dudebro cubicles from coast to coast.

177 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43:18pm

re: #167 Backwoods_Sleuth

178 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43:45pm

re: #176 Shiplord Kirel

Nah, that’s so 20th century. We have an ace in the hole in the form of our genetically engineered flying monkey legions; you know, the ones we traded all those abduction victims to the aliens for. They are poised to swarm out of their lairs at Denver Airport and Bohemian Grove and swoop down on shooting ranges, Bible churches, and dudebro cubicles from coast to coast.

Don’t forget the Bryan Fischer Invasion Bears.

179 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43:54pm
180 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43:54pm

re: #165 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Image: SzDMh44.png

At least he’s not Gandhi, else we’d have been nuked already.

181 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43:57pm

Something for KT:

182 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:44:00pm

Oops.

183 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:44:14pm
184 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:44:29pm

re: #175 chadu

O/T

That was a pretty good lunch, but I’m pretty sure the steak didn’t come all the way from Salisbury, nor the sprouts from Brussels or the fries from France.

Nor the plate from China.

185 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:44:29pm

re: #178 Testy Toad T

Don’t forget the Bryan Fischer Invasion Bears.

Bryan can’t, that’s for sure.

186 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:44:52pm

re: #181 Backwoods_Sleuth

Something for KT:

[Embedded content]

“Hello, my baby! Hello, my honey! Hello, my ragtime gal!”

187 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:45:17pm

re: #181 Backwoods_Sleuth

“This is my happening, and I’m freaking out!”

188 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:45:29pm

re: #164 Backwoods_Sleuth

Could just be latrines…
//

They’re waiting for winter!

189 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:19pm

Profiles in Courage:

190 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:19pm

re: #183 Gus

Followed by the panel:

“So, What’s the Deal with Airline Food, AMIRITE?”

191 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:31pm

re: #178 Testy Toad T

Don’t forget the Bryan Fischer Invasion Bears.

Bears Discover Fire

Just wait till you see the real life sequel, Bears Discover Firepower.

192 Chrysicat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:48pm

re: #147 Gus

Snowden has secrets that Russia is now finding useful!

Oh yeah! And WMD intelligence was useful to Bush too!

I’d like to vote you up, but with as many secrets as Snowden took off with, I don’t think you have to be a wingnut to believe that he’s probably sharing harmful info with Russia.

193 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:50pm

re: #184 wrenchwench

Nor the plate from China.

194 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:54pm

re: #151 Gus

Will there be any black helicopters or drones?

Worse than those, there’ll be drone helicopters painted black!!1

195 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:46:59pm
196 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:47:25pm

re: #187 chadu

“This is my happening, and I’m freaking out!”

Upding for the Beyond The Valley of The Dolls reference.

197 Kragar  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:47:28pm

Just learned I get to drop another $200 bucks I really don’t want to spend on my car today.

198 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:47:29pm

re: #183 Gus

@AndrewKroll
CPAC 2014 panel: “What’s the Deal with Global Warming? An Al Gore fever dream? … Real but irrelevant?” …

The focus on figurehead over data continues apace. These people just can’t help themselves. They can’t conceive of a theory standing exclusively on its merits, free of the force of personality of a figurehead. To discredit Al Gore that slight bit more, or maybe even prove him to be fat (!!!), surely this time will discredit the scientific theories to which Al Gore subscribes, and surely it will drive away any and all other “believers”.

They have no other way of conceptualizing theories. It’s deeply sad.

199 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:48:01pm
200 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:48:37pm

re: #189 Lidane

Profiles in Courage:

[Embedded content]

Day late and a dollar short.

201 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:48:55pm

re: #189 Lidane

Profiles in Courage:

[Embedded content]

The Sarah Palin method of making pronouncements: wait for opinion from the base or until it appears to be a done deal.
Much like she makes her political endorsements…

202 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:49:07pm

re: #199 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

If true, that’s it - it’s war between Russia and Ukraine.

203 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:49:19pm

re: #75 CuriousLurker

It’s a process that takes years so as to integrate the military structure into NATO structures and meet reform requirements. There was a MAP (membership action plan), with an ultimate eye towards membership, but that was scuttled over Russian insistence.

Now, NATO and Ukraine could resurrect the MAP , and NATO could set a target date for membership.

Thing is that I don’t think that would dissuade the Russians. If anything, that might spur them to destabilize the Ukrainian government and move on Kiev proper (by or through proxies if possible). Russia doesn’t want to see NATO on its doorstop, which is why it’s tried to stop Poland and others from shifting their gaze Westward.

All that said, it would be comical for this to be labeled a loss for Obama and the US, if the invasion actually accelerates/restarts Ukraine’s membership into NATO.

204 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:49:33pm

re: #196 Dr Lizardo

Upding for the Beyond The Valley of The Dolls reference.

Izza classik!

205 Bear  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:49:45pm

re: #184 wrenchwench

Nor the plate from China.

Don’t bet on it.

206 BigBadDemocrat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:10pm

Poland is not very happy just now. What if they send aid to help the Ukraine
in the form of tanks and anti aircraft . Do the Russians have enough power to take on Poland and the Ukraine at the same time on two fronts?

This thing is a mess if you get Putin pushing to much and one country over reacts.

207 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:14pm

re: #202 Dr Lizardo

If true, that’s it - it’s war between Russia and Ukraine.

Looks like it. That ultimatum must have been a distraction.

208 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:36pm

re: #202 Dr Lizardo

If true, that’s it - it’s war between Russia and Ukraine.

Who the hell is the source?

209 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:43pm

re: #198 Testy Toad T

The focus on figurehead over data continues apace. These people just can’t help themselves. They can’t conceive of a theory standing exclusively on its merits, free of the force of personality of a figurehead. To discredit Al Gore that slight bit more, or maybe even prove him to be fat (!!!), surely this time will discredit the scientific theories to which Al Gore subscribes, and surely it will drive away any and all other “believers”.

They have no other way of conceptualizing theories. It’s deeply sad.

SICK BURN, dude! High-five! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! (chugs beer)

210 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:48pm

re: #195 Gus

[Embedded content]

hahahaa!

Online reader comments echo chambers are “a vital form of accountability,” says @ggreenwald, describing how @the_intercept works:

fixed that for him…

211 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:50:48pm

re: #202 Dr Lizardo

If true, that’s it - it’s war between Russia and Ukraine.

Frankly, I think we’ve already crossed and burned that bridge. We’re lucky that right now it’s a North/South Korea Phoney War, but it’s here.

212 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:52:04pm

re: #206 BigBadDemocrat

Poland is not very happy just now. What if they send aid to help the Ukraine
in the form of tanks and anti aircraft . Do the Russians have enough power to take on Poland and the Ukraine at the same time on two fronts?

This thing is a mess if you get Putin pushing to much and one country over reacts.

I really don’t know what the Russians would do; after all, Poland is NATO, and unless Putin’s completely lost his fucking mind, I don’t think he wants to get into a shooting war with NATO.

213 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:52:08pm

re: #206 BigBadDemocrat

Poland is not very happy just now. What if they send aid to help the Ukraine
in the form of tanks and anti aircraft . Do the Russians have enough power to take on Poland and the Ukraine at the same time on two fronts?

This thing is a mess if you get Putin pushing to much and one country over reacts.

And then you have NATO obligated to step in and help Poland. This is a recipe for disaster.

214 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:52:08pm

re: #195 Gus

[Embedded content]

Online reader comments are “a vital form of accountability,” says @ggreenwald Socky McSockpuppet

FTFThem

215 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:52:19pm

re: #199 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Are they saying Russia is crossing beyond the Crimea or that the Russians are occupying Kerch? Because the latter, while shitty, would just be the same shit Russia has been doing for the past couple days, while the former would be a major escalation.

216 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:52:29pm

re: #206 BigBadDemocrat

Poland is not very happy just now. What if they send aid to help the Ukraine
in the form of tanks and anti aircraft . Do the Russians have enough power to take on Poland and the Ukraine at the same time on two fronts?

On paper, it would be almost trivially easy. The thing is, and the Russians ought to remember this well, a surprise rollover of impotent armies and flag-planting on vast swaths of territory does not really make it Yours, and it does not necessarily win you a war.

217 BigBadDemocrat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:53:01pm

Hungarians, Polish, Ukraine, Checkslow’s, even Germans getting in the deal due to the possible cut off of heating gas from the Russians.

What a mess.

218 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:53:31pm

Come to think of it. That’s what Charles has already been doing or what we do here at LGF.

219 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:54:31pm

re: #191 Shiplord Kirel

Bears Discover Fire

Just wait till you see the real life sequel, Bears Discover Firepower.

Bears already have firepower.

220 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:54:51pm

re: #218 Gus

Come to think of it. That’s what Charles has already been doing or what we do here at LGF.

It can be done right. I’ve never seen Greenwald do it right.

221 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:55:09pm

Okay, in the worst case, a shooting war, Obama should do the following:
Ask Congress for a declaration of war.
Call up all reserves.
Announce a naval and air blockade.
Institute wage and price controls, fuel rationing, and civil defense drills (Where is that Duck and Cover pamphlet I got in the 4th grade anyway?).
Point and laugh at the dudebros and poke them with sharp sticks.

222 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:55:14pm

re: #218 Gus

Come to think of it. That’s what Charles has already been doing or what we do here at LGF.

Except Charles doesn’t have a jacked-up billionaire sugardaddy.

223 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:55:27pm

re: #216 Testy Toad T

On paper, it would be almost trivially easy. The thing is, and the Russians ought to remember this well, a surprise rollover of impotent armies and flag-planting on vast swaths of territory does not really make it Yours, and it does not necessarily win you a war.

It depends. The new Ukrainian government may well have enough time to fortify Kiev, and I’m not sure Putin would be willing to blast his way in.

224 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:55:37pm

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

Are they saying Russia is crossing beyond the Crimea or that the Russians are occupying Kerch? Because the latter, while shitty, would just be the same shit Russia has been doing for the past couple days, while the former would be a major escalation.

I’m waiting for more info from CNN who is breaking this story.

225 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:56:13pm

re: #221 Shiplord Kirel

Okay, in the worst case, a shooting war, Obama should do the following:
Ask Congress for a declaration of war.
Call up all reserves.
Announce a naval and air blockade.
Institute wage and price controls, fuel rationing, and civil defense drills (Where is that Duck and Cover pamphlet I got in the 4th grade anyway?).
Point and laugh at the dudebros and poke them with sharp sticks.

Restore 1945 income tax structure.

226 klys  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:56:17pm

re: #224 NJDhockeyfan

I’m waiting for more info from CNN who is breaking this story.

Excellent choice for quality reporting.

//

227 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:57:20pm

re: #226 klys

Excellent choice for quality reporting.

//

Is Glenn Beck on hiatus?

228 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:57:22pm

re: #218 Gus

Come to think of it. That’s what Charles has already been doing or what we do here at LGF.

I guess by this logic, the commenters are the boss.

229 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:57:30pm

re: #219 lawhawk

Bears already have firepower.

Yes, they do.

(Warning - the photo in the link may require the immediate application of brain bleach. And depending where you work, may be NSFW)

Image: Shirtless-Hairy-Guy-with-Guns.jpg

230 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:58:39pm

re: #229 Dr Lizardo

Yes, they do.

(>Warning - the photo in the link may require the immediate application of brain bleach. And depending where you work, may be NSFW)

Image: Shirtless-Hairy-Guy-with-Guns.jpg

“Date me or the nuts get it!”

231 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:58:52pm

re: #226 klys

Excellent choice for quality reporting.

//


Meanwhile Wolf Blitzer is investigating the accents of the men in those trucks.

232 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:58:53pm

re: #230 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

“Date me or the nuts get it!”

lolol

233 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:00:05pm

re: #228 wrenchwench

I guess by this logic, the commenters are the boss.

[Embedded content]

Can’t wait until one of GG’s stable of “journalists” publishes something he hates…

234 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:00:09pm

OK. Could be that the Russians are simply reinforcing their presence in the Crimean Peninsula.

235 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:00:28pm

Map © Andrein

Back in December, I was wondering about what seemed to me (at the time) to be a weird Russian exclave called Kaliningrad Oblast that’s wedged between Poland & Lithuania. No one appeared interested in discussing it that night except for FNB, who said she might have seen the name in a novel.

In light of what’s going on with Russia right now, its existence no longer seems quite so weird as it’s an additional port for them, so it might be a good idea to keep an eye on anything happening there. Oh, and it looks like they’ve had political issues similar to those in Ukraine, as described in this article.

Anyway, the appearance of Putin/Russia on the international stage seems to have unnerved people across the political spectrum, so I think I’ll just go sit quietly in a corner somewhere until things calm down. Don’t need the stress.

236 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:01:00pm

TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE

==PUBLISH==

The Intercept

237 Pie-onist Overlord  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:02:56pm

FACT CHECKING IS FASCIST!!!!1!!!!

238 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:03:16pm

Kaliningrad is a straight-up Russian territory, and it’s not a small one (the oblast is about 2/3 the size of New Hampshire). Sevastapol, on the other hand, was a leased base not entirely unlike Guantanamo Bay. They’re also less entirely berift of ports in the Baltic; St. Petersburg is not ice-free, but it’s a pretty major point of entry.

If the Russians’ motivations for this action are anything along those lines, they are not really in play with regards to Kaliningrad.

239 sagehen  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:03:27pm

re: #4 Aqua Obama

Pravda:

if anyone was wondering what this was about

to quote Murphy Brown:

“Oh, is that it? So how about you both drop your drawers, I’ll whip out a ruler, we can settle this right now.”

240 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:03:29pm

re: #236 Gus

TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE

==PUBLISH==

The Intercept

Followed by: twittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwittertwitter!!!

241 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:04:53pm

Kerch

i was told there would be no geography

242 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:04:54pm

re: #74 jaunte

Drive down oil prices

I had that as a move in my ‘economic war’ comment on Saturday. Time to roll out some of our reserves.

243 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:04:54pm

re: #228 wrenchwench

I guess by this logic, the commenters are the boss.

[Embedded content]

[pierre] Hey Glenn, tell them this:

“We want to avoid this hierarchical, top-down structure where editors are bosses and obstacles to being published.”

[/pierre]

244 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:05:10pm

re: #219 lawhawk

Bears already have firepower.

The end of the trilogy is Bears III: Quest for More Dakka

245 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:05:14pm

re: #203 lawhawk

It’s a process that takes years so as to integrate the military structure into NATO structures and meet reform requirements. There was a MAP (membership action plan), with an ultimate eye towards membership, but that was scuttled over Russian insistence.

Now, NATO and Ukraine could resurrect the MAP , and NATO could set a target date for membership.

Thing is that I don’t think that would dissuade the Russians. If anything, that might spur them to destabilize the Ukrainian government and move on Kiev proper (by or through proxies if possible). Russia doesn’t want to see NATO on its doorstop, which is why it’s tried to stop Poland and others from shifting their gaze Westward.

All that said, it would be comical for this to be labeled a loss for Obama and the US, if the invasion actually accelerates/restarts Ukraine’s membership into NATO.

Yeah, I read about the MAP on Wiki, but got lazy this weekend and didn’t bother trying to figure out all the NATO stuff, so thanks a bunch for the summary.

246 GeneJockey  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:08:11pm

re: #242 ObserverArt

I had that as a move in my ‘economic war’ comment on Saturday. Time to roll out some of our reserves.

Wingnuts using Crimea as a reason for Obama to approve the Keystone XL pipeline in 3…2…1….

247 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:08:40pm

Ommmmm.

248 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:10:33pm

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

Kerch is a Crimean port town very close to Russian territory. They’ve been planning to build a bridge.

It would make a lot of sense to ferry troops into Crimea via Kerch, rather than going around to Sevastopol which is on the opposite side of Crimea.

Edit: In fact just today Medvedev made official the decision to move ahead with the bridge project. Wouldn’t be surprised if they put together a temporary floating bridge, say, this week. They could just say “We’d been talking to Ukraine about building a bridge, we built a bridge! What’s the problem!”

249 BigBadDemocrat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:11:16pm

Russia 7 or 8 years in Afghanistan then out with a loss. They any better now?

250 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:11:37pm

hmmm. This appears to be some sort of a medieval piñata .

251 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:11:56pm

Meanwhile, over at SCOTUS:

Black robed tyrants! Activist judges!

252 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:13:16pm
253 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:13:34pm
254 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:13:44pm
255 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:14:24pm

re: #246 GeneJockey

Wingnuts using Crimea as a reason for Obama to approve the Keystone XL pipeline in 3…2…1….

More like using Putin’s move as a reason to expand natural gas production within the US, which it is. We can export Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) to Europe, and we should do so. If Putin wants to use energy delivery as a weapon, then let’s counter in a way sure to put a hurt on his wallet.

256 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:15:52pm

re: #238 Testy Toad T

Also Crimea was “given” to Ukraine by Khruschev.

257 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:18:17pm

re: #256 jonhendry

Also Crimea was “given” to Ukraine by Khruschev.

In Putinist Russia, Crimea gives back to you!

258 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:18:28pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Yep. No hierarchies. Just a giant law firm, PR firm, internet consultants, and Omidyar’s billions.

259 Kragar  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:18:49pm

re: #256 jonhendry

Also Crimea was “given” to Ukraine by Khruschev.

So when are they going to ask for Alaska back?

260 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:18:57pm
261 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:19:52pm

re: #155 GunstarGreen

Oh, and BTW: Just taking a moment to point out that the GOP’s platform is at this point so thoroughly stuck on WHATEVER OBAMA IS FOR, WE’RE AGAINST IT!!!1!!1 that the American Right Wing is now rooting for the Russians.

Think about that for a few long moments.

Can we put some of them on trial for war crimes, traitors…maybe for just being assholes??? Anything?

262 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:19:57pm

Interpretermag has been doing a great job blogging updates on Crimea. Right now they are following the UNSC…

2039 GMT: The UN Security Council has started. Russia called the meeting.
The representative of Ukraine has been added to the meeting.

The Assistant Secretary General — Department of Political Affairs, gives a briefing. So far, the point is that local militias have taken over government buildings in Crimea, and Russia is in violation, according to Ukraine, of the treaty that allows the Black Sea fleet to be in Ukraine.

The Deputy Secretary General, Jan Eliasson , is in Ukraine to report back to the UNSC. The Secretary General has also reached out to all relevant leaders and has called for dialogue to find a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

263 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:20:01pm

re: #258 Gus

Yep. No hierarchies. Just a giant law firm, PR firm, internet consultants, and Omidyar’s billions.

The bullshit flowing out of this guy amazes me.

264 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:21:22pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

The bullshit flowing out of this guy amazes me.

He puts out enough bullshit to fertilize the Sinai.

265 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:21:22pm

re: #181 Backwoods_Sleuth

Something for KT:

[Embedded content]

Nice!

266 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:22:09pm
2045 GMT: Now Russia’s ambassador is speaking. He reiterates that this crisis was sparked by the armed takeover by extremists of the government of Kiev. Any solution must use a dialogue of all ethnic and national groups within Ukraine to come up to a peaceful solution.
Russia says its partners (the other members of the UNSC) have worked with the extremists to create this terror. “Armed national radicals, under slogans of anti-Russian and anti-semitic banners” have taken over the country.

The only way to fix this crisis is to abide by the agreement of February 21st (which would put Yanukovych back in power).

The Russian ambassador is also referencing a bill that would strip the Russian language as a secondary language in Ukraine. However, the bill has been vetoed, and the bill would not have forced people to speak Russian even if it was not, so this is exaggerated.

2050 GMT: The Russian ambassador says that the goal of the russian presence in Crimea is to defend the most important human right — the right to life, especially when it comes to ethnic Russians. The ambassador says that Ukraine is on the brink of civil war. “People are being persecuted for ideas and language.” He says there are violent acts against civilians.
Again, this is a great exaggeration.

Russia’s ambassador then makes an indignant statement about how Russia’s actions are being viewed as aggression.

Russia wants to establish a government of national unity, but it would seem that this would require, first, the reestablishment of the negotiated agreement between ousted President Yanukovych and the opposition leaders.

Russia reiterates that it is not a crisis of their making, but a crisis sparked by the ultra-nationalist gangs.


2055 GMT: US Ambassador Samantha Power fires back — “you’d think Russia is the enforcing arm for the UN Commission for Human Rights.” She goes on to say that there is no factual basis for Russia’s statements, but the facts (she says fact at the start of every sentence) is that Russia has taken over Crimea, in breach of the Helsinki accord, international law, and Russia’s various deals with Ukraine.
“Russia’s mobilization is a response to an imaginary threat.” There is no evidence that churches have been attacked, that ethnic Russians have been attacked or are in danger, or that the Russian language will be banned.

267 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:22:59pm

re: #259 Kragar

So when are they going to ask for Alaska back?

Part of me wishes they would, as long as Russia had to take Sarah Palin.

268 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:23:31pm
2100 GMT: Power goes on to say that Russia’s negotiations with sub-national groups, namely the government of Crimea, is a breach of international law.
Power calls for international observers in Ukraine, the pullback of Russian forces, the deployment of human rights monitors, and a dialogue after this is all done.

Power then says that Russia may not like that Yanukovych fled, that the new government has taken over in Kiev, or that Yanukovych’s own party has, in many cases, joined the new coalition. Then she says that by fleeing Kiev and Ukraine, it is Yanukovych that broke the agreement of February 21st. The February 21st agreement, then is turning back the clock, and is an empty notion.

Power says that this is an act of aggression.


2102 GMT: France’s ambassador notes that when Russia invaded Czechoslovakia, the same justifications were used. Once again, however, Russia has invaded another country based on propaganda and justification.
The Russian army is occupiers. In the age of the internet it is easy to prove that Russia’s claims are untrue.

France’s ambassador says that the flight of the president and the about-face of the parliament made the February 21st agreement impossible. A national coalition government has been called for by the acting government of Ukraine, and so this is the road forward.

France demands that Russia pulls back. France also demands that the opposition restore the bill about the protection of languages (the repeal of which, again, has been vetoed), and the rights of minorities needs to be protected.

But he reiterates that Russia has violated international law. But he’s not optimistic. “Russia seems to be going back to its old ghosts, playing an outdated role in an outdated setting.” There will be consequences if Russia does not comply, though the ambassador does not specify what those would be.

269 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:24:38pm

re: #266 NJDhockeyfan

Well done, Ambassador Power. Russia’s lies are straight out of the Goebbels playbook and she is right to treat them with the disrespect they merit.

270 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:24:50pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

Part of me wishes they would, as long as Russia had to take Sarah Palin.

If we can work out a deal that the Canadians throw in Justin Bieber, hell yes! Go for it!

271 klys  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:25:06pm

re: #268 NJDhockeyfan

Just saying, you might want to excerpt a little more and provide a link back.

Full blown copy/paste can cause problems for Charles.

272 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:25:07pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

Part of me wishes they would, as long as Russia had to take Sarah Palin.

Then she could definitely see Putin from her house.

[9000 Testy Toad comments. Good lord. Where does the time come from?]

273 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:25:08pm
2107 GMT: Now the UK ambassador speaks. He is echoing Russian media’s claims and the claims of the Russian government, and reiterating that there is no evidence for these claims. “It is clear that the Russian government has fabricated these claims to justify military action.”
The UK ambassador again says that Russia is in violation with countless international laws and agreements. He says that Yanukovych is illegitimate, so his desire to go back to Ukraine as its leader is unacceptable. The Ukrainian government is legitimate.

The UK’s ambassador has asked the Ukrainian government to act calmly to avoid further pretext for expansion of Russian military action. The ambassador has asked Russia to withdraw its forces to force levels previously agreed to by Russia and Ukraine. Russia needs to directly dialogue with Kiev, and needs to consult with Ukrainian leaders as specified by the treaty of 1994.

There also needs to be a fact-finding and observer mission in Ukraine.

The UK’s ambassador then asks the UN Deputy Secretary General to go to Crimea.

2115 GMT: Lithuania has made similar statements to those by UK, France, and the US. Lithuania’s ambassador specifically uses the word “separatism” to describe Russia’s provocations.

2119 GMT: Rwanda is now giving comments.
“Given the complexity and fragility on the ground” they request a unified effort from international communities to study the crisis and ensure a peaceful solution to the crisis.

“Though Rwanda is geographically removed from Ukraine” the representative says that the reckless actions of nuclear powers are a world threat.

Now Jordan ambassador is speaking. They have called for all states concerned to respect international treaties with Ukraine (in other words, Russia needs to withdraw to bases agreed upon in 1994 and 1997).

274 Kragar  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:25:51pm


On Saturday, Raw Story published an article about Fox News host Tucker Carlson’s appearance on The Alex Jones Radio Show. In the article, we incorrectly described The Alex Jones Radio Show as “Internet-only.”

We regret the error, and had no idea it would affect Jones in such dramatic fashion. For nearly 15 minutes on Sunday, the conspiracy theorist took Raw Story to task for not reporting that his show was aired on nearly 100 AM/FM stations across the United States, accusing us of being part of billionaire investor George Soros’s plot to destroy the First Amendment.

275 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:26:16pm
2125 GMT: Now China’s ambassador is speaking. “We condemn the recent extreme violent acts in Ukraine.” But what are those?
The Chinese ambassador says they respect Ukraine’s sovereign and territorial integrity, but then says “there are reasons” for the ways things have happened. The statement is very vague, with language echoing statements from both Russia and the other UNSC members.
276 sagehen  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:27:30pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

Part of me wishes they would, as long as Russia had to take Sarah Palin.

And her offspring.

277 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:27:57pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Nice!

When I saw that tweet, my first thought for a caption was “hot rock! Hot Rock!!!”

278 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:28:16pm

re: #271 klys

Just saying, you might want to excerpt a little more and provide a link back.

Full blown copy/paste can cause problems for Charles.

The link is on the first post. I usually do the excerpt thing but my iPad is about to die.

279 GeneJockey  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:28:59pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

More like using Putin’s move as a reason to expand natural gas production within the US, which it is. We >can export Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) to Europe, and we should do so. If Putin wants to use energy delivery as a weapon, then let’s counter in a way sure to put a hurt on his wallet.

Dark, you’re talking as if they’d use reason and logic. What’s wrong with that picture?
//

280 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:30:24pm

Fearless
Non-hierarchical newsroom

281 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:30:26pm
282 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:31:51pm

The Intercept readership: white non-Hispanic males; 20 plus years old; libertarians; college educated…

283 Jack Burton  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:31:52pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Well done, Ambassador Power. Russia’s lies are straight out of the Goebbels playbook and she is right to treat them with the disrespect they merit.

Muhammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf is firing up his resume to send to Putin.

284 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:33:19pm

re: #281 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

If you don’t take assignments from an editor, and don’t submit copy to an editor, you are pretty much an essayist, not a working journalist.

285 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:33:49pm

re: #259 Kragar

So when are they going to ask for Alaska back?

Well since we bought it from them that might be a bit hard to do. On the other hand we could always sell it back to them on the condition that Caribou Barbie was part of the package.

286 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:34:02pm

Found my go-to response for all things GG:

Another sanctimonious GG lecture on journalistic ethics?

287 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:34:09pm

re: #272 Testy Toad T

Then she could definitely see Putin from her house.

[9000 Testy Toad comments. Good lord. Where does the time come from?]

Almost as thought there’s a team of testy toads, glued together maybe…

288 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:34:38pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

If you don’t take assignments from an editor, and don’t submit copy to an editor, you are pretty much an essayist, not a working journalist.

Wait. You mean there’s no “works well with others” on Glenn’s report card?

Witness my astonishment.

289 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:34:46pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

If you don’t take assignments from an editor, and don’t submit copy to an editor, you are pretty much an essayist, not a working journalist.

Or a very low-rated blogger.

290 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:34:47pm

re: #274 Kragar

[Embedded content]

There’s some fun in watch Jones froth at the mouth, but the joke gets old after a while.

291 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:35:38pm

re: #287 wrenchwench

Almost as thought there’s a team of testy toads, glued together maybe…

@AmphibianPhil
#frogOTD a ‘knot’ of Breviceps gibbosus, they secrete superglue to stick themselves together during mating! (HT Les)

Now I know why the various girlfriends always complained about me being too clingy…

292 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:36:18pm

re: #287 wrenchwench

Almost as thought there’s a team of testy toads, glued together maybe…

[Embedded content]

They look like they are ready to explode.

…backing away slowly before running like hell…

293 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:36:29pm

re: #291 Testy Toad T

Now I know why the various girlfriends always complained about me being too clingy…

Better a toad than a choad, though.

294 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:37:02pm

re: #291 Testy Toad T

Now I know why the various girlfriends always complained about me being too clingy…

Several of them at once, I’m guessing….

295 chadu  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:37:46pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

If you don’t take assignments from an editor, and don’t submit copy to an editor, you are pretty much an essayist, not a working journalist.

296 Bubblehead II  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:39:40pm

re: #271 klys

Just saying, you might want to excerpt a little more and provide a link back.

Full blown copy/paste can cause problems for Charles.

Being that these are UNSC minutes, I don’t think there will be a problem. Public Domain and all that.

297 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:41:14pm

re: #294 wrenchwench

Several of them at once, I’m guessing….

My brood-matron taught me never to adhere and tell.

298 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:47:00pm
299 steve_davis  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:49:24pm

re: #19 chadu

But not in a butch gay way, right?

Graham: “I’m gonna fly my freak flag!”

300 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:51:18pm

In Venezuela now:

301 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:52:40pm

The toads in #287 look like they are having a tea-party rally. All swollen with bile and climbing all over each other to get to the soap box to vent.

302 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:54:08pm

re: #301 ObserverArt

The toads in #287 look like they are having a tea-party rally. All swollen with bile and climbing all over each other to get to the soap box to vent.

Tea Toads? Sounds like a new meme for Gus to create. ;)

303 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:54:45pm

re: #301 ObserverArt

The toads in #287 look like they are having a tea-party rally. All swollen with bile and climbing all over each other to get to the soap box to vent.

In other words, from the outside, bad politics looks a lot like good sex. Somebody’s always getting screwed.

304 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:54:46pm

Sully haz concerns:


The only way the two situations would be comparable is if Obama was preparing to invade North Korea to get back at Putin for invading Ukraine.

305 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:56:16pm

re: #304 Lidane

Sully haz concerns:

[Embedded content]


The only way the two situations would be comparable is if Obama was preparing to invade North Korea to get back at Putin for invading Ukraine.

He’s using way too many big words…

306 steve_davis  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:57:05pm

re: #69 jaunte

Seize him by the Swiss francs!

grab him by the Mo and Curlies!

307 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 1:59:28pm

re: #304 Lidane

Sully haz concerns:

[Embedded content]


The only way the two situations would be comparable is if Obama was preparing to invade North Korea to get back at Putin for invading Ukraine.

And sometimes, folks, people who were diagnosed with BDS actually were suffering from American President Derangement Syndrome (AmPrDS, because APDS stands for Armor Piercing, Discarding Sabot).

308 steve_davis  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:00:00pm

re: #86 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I think the State department would have a difficulty in recognizing the new Ukrainian government as valid. State, like lawyers, is as concerned with precedent and process as anything else. Ukraine has scheduled presidential elections but not parliamentary ones.

Other than that, I don’t see anything in Brzezinski’s plan to avoid war and military confrontation. Some oddballs are focusing on the ‘prepare NATO forces’ part as though that’s the most substantial thing he said, but he’s mostly focused, as a good diplomat should be, on avoiding war. He doesn’t, for example, even call for a return of the Crimea to the Ukraine. He says that Russia may very well get the Crimea.

His judicious and sober language is a long way from people puffing up their chests and calling for ‘getting tough’.

in the end, my guess is that this is going to end with Russia signing some kind of hundred-year, one dollar lease with the Ukrainians for access to the port in Crimea. Because Putin has actually driven himself right into a massive clusterfuck here. Anyone who comes away from this thinking Putin is a genius has never seen a chess player blow his load in an attack, only to have to resign after discovering there just isn’t anything at the end of the sacrificial onslaught.

309 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:01:21pm

re: #304 Lidane

Sully haz concerns:

[Embedded content]


The only way the two situations would be comparable is if Obama was preparing to invade North Korea to get back at Putin for invading Ukraine.

Laura Rozen, (who has dudebro tendencies but gets stuff right sometimes) had a good retort to that this morning.

310 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:01:41pm

Mental health break!

311 calochortus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:02:33pm

re: #302 Dark_Falcon

Tea Toads? Sounds like a new meme for Gus to create. ;)

Why libel honest amphibians?

312 makeitstop  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:02:37pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

If you don’t take assignments from an editor, and don’t submit copy to an editor, you are pretty much an essayist blogger, not a working journalist.

FTFY

313 Aqua Obama  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:02:38pm

Greenwald is a moron for using a tu quoque argument about the WMDs. Yeah, that makes it totally okay.

314 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:02:59pm

re: #310 Lidane

Aww. That is so cute.

315 Aqua Obama  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:03:16pm

Steven Seagal knows all:

Image: Bh1SGBFCUAAstIZ.png

316 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:04:09pm

Help me out

When did the USA ever have the “moral high ground”, especially as viewed through the lens of the folks who are spouting this current nonsense?

317 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:04:46pm

Putin would listen to us if only we still had the “moral high ground”.

318 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:05:04pm
319 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:05:08pm

re: #313 Aqua Obama

Greenwald is a moron for using a tu quoque argument about the WMDs. Yeah, that makes it totally okay.

And the comparison to Iraq is a non-starter. Iraq was a distraction and a war of choice that was fought for no reason other than Dubya’s unresolved Daddy issues.

Saying that the Iraq war was wrong and that Putin is wrong to invade Ukraine are not mutually exclusive. Sully’s being purposefully dense.

320 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:05:31pm

re: #314 PhillyPretzel

Aww. That is so cute.

It’s also Photoshopped to hell and back, but the cuteness overrides this.

321 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:07:10pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

So I guess according to Rozen, all America’s sins are swept away every time there’s a change of administration and we get a clean slate.

Presumably she doesn’t think it works the same way with things we do right.

322 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:07:48pm
323 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:08:22pm

re: #308 steve_davis

in the end, my guess is that this is going to end with Russia signing some kind of hundred-year, one dollar lease with the Ukrainians for access to the port in Crimea. Because Putin has actually driven himself right into a massive clusterfuck here. Anyone who comes away from this thinking Putin is a genius has never seen a chess player blow his load in an attack, only to have to resign after discovering there just isn’t anything at the end of the sacrificial onslaught.

I’ve been wondering if Putin is just doing a costly demo just to show the world he is a very important man. He had the Olympics, now he is rattling the sabers. A little show a little go. A little new, a little old…Russia can do it all.

Once he freaks everyone out and causes all kinds of concerns, he could roll everyone back out and claim he was just doing a little policing while the Ukraine is going through big changes. And then he can say, see I’m a nice guy, just looking out for my brothers.

Yeah, that is probably nutty…but then Putin is not a normal world leader and politician. He seems to like to fuck around from time to time.

324 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:08:40pm

re: #317 b.d.

Putin would listen to us if only we still had the “moral high ground”.

Bush: Invaded a country to overthrow a brutal dictator.

Putin: Invaded a country to restore a brutal dictator, and is a dictator himself.

Moral high ground belongs to the US from where I sit.

325 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:08:44pm

re: #321 jonhendry

So I guess according to Rozen, all America’s sins are swept away every time there’s a change of administration and we get a clean slate.

Presumably she doesn’t think it works the same way with things we do right.

I think you’re overstating her position a bit.

326 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:09:12pm
327 Gus  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:10:30pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Bush: Invaded a country to overthrow a brutal dictator.

Putin: Invaded a country to restore a brutal dictator, and is a dictator himself.

Moral high ground belongs to the US from where I sit.

Well, to be fair Saddam was a lot more brutal than Yanko.

328 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:10:37pm

re: #319 Lidane

And the comparison to Iraq is a non-starter. Iraq was a distraction and a war of choice that was fought for no reason other than Dubya’s unresolved Daddy issues.

Saying that the Iraq war was wrong and that Putin is wrong to invade Ukraine are not mutually exclusive. Sully’s being purposefully dense.

Sorry, but having made such a huge blunder, we really don’t have a lot of credibility to be telling Russia what to do with Ukraine. Russia’s weak argument for acting in Ukraine is still a hell of a lot stronger than our rationale for invading Iraq. So who the hell are we to be telling Russia not to invade?

We’re like Jocelyn Wildenstein criticizing Rose McGowan’s plastic surgery.

329 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:10:53pm

re: #316 b.d.

Help me out

When did the USA ever have the “moral high ground”, especially as viewed through the lens of the folks who are spouting this current nonsense?

You’re not a Republican Tea-Party type are you?

///

330 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:11:17pm

Churkin is the Russian envoy to the UN.


And kind of an ass, to say the least.

331 Aqua Obama  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:11:20pm

What the FUCK is the Russian delegate going on about?

332 Aqua Obama  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:11:51pm

REAGAN yo!

333 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:12:47pm

re: #325 wrenchwench

No, that’s basically what she said: Hey, that’s the past. Obama was elected, and he doesn’t agree with the Iraq invasion. So we get to pretend the past never happened, as if many of the people responsible for Iraq aren’t still in positions of influence (and, in Congress, demanding more action from Obama against Russia!).

334 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:12:49pm

re: #328 jonhendry

Sorry, but having made such a huge blunder, we really don’t have a lot of credibility to be telling Russia what to do with Ukraine. Russia’s weak argument for acting in Ukraine is still a hell of a lot stronger than our rationale for invading Iraq. So who the hell are we to be telling Russia not to invade?

We’re like Jocelyn Wildenstein criticizing Rose McGowan’s plastic surgery.

We certainly aren’t pure in any sense, but I think we’re in a better position than most to criticize Russia, and are also morally obligated to do so.

335 BigBadDemocrat  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:12:52pm

Or the Ukraine deal is put up to distract the U.S. from the Cuban/Russian aided take over of Venezuela .

336 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:13:13pm

re: #328 jonhendry

We had stronger case for Iraq having WMDs than Putin does for ‘persecution’ of ethnic Russians. And we were going after a genuine tyrant, who had murdered his people by the tens of thousands.

Try again, screwy.

337 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:14:01pm

re: #328 jonhendry

Sorry, but having made such a huge blunder, we really don’t have a lot of credibility to be telling Russia what to do with Ukraine. Russia’s weak argument for acting in Ukraine is still a hell of a lot stronger

Que? The Russian argument is laugh-out-loud pathetic.

Shit, ours was pretty terrible too, but come on. If WMDs had actually existed, of course they’d have been hidden and not certainly known until after the fact. Can the Russians produce any ethnically Russian Ukranians who were threatened? Could the Russians not merely open their borders and/or evacuate anyone who was threatened, rather than digging fucking trenches across the Crimea?

338 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:15:18pm

re: #327 Gusre: #327 Gus

Well, to be fair Saddam was a lot more brutal than Yanko.

And Russia actually has significant interests in Ukraine, the navy base, lots of Russian people in Ukraine, etc. None of which was particularly true about the US and Iraq.

Russia’s action in Ukraine reminds me a bit of the US invasion of Panama. We didn’t like the guy in charge there, so we put a new one in.

339 Testy Toad T  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:16:04pm

I wonder what the statute of limitations is on finding fault with invasions of sovereign nations. Ten years apparently isn’t enough. How about twenty?

Fifty?

340 GeneJockey  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:16:15pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

We had stronger case for Iraq having WMDs than Putin does for ‘persecution’ of ethnic Russians. And we were going after a genuine tyrant, who had murdered his people by the tens of thousands.

Try again, screwy.

And yet, there were no WMDs, and probably there’s some ethnic Russians who are NOW being looked at askance by their Tatar neighbors. Perhaps they hadn’t been before, but I bet they are now!

341 RadicalModerate  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:16:58pm

I wish the righwingers would just make up their minds.

Sorry, but you can’t be a fan of Vladimir Putin and all of his dictatorial tactics while at the same time wanting to bomb Russia.

342 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:17:14pm

re: #337 Testy Toad T

“Que? The Russian argument is laugh-out-loud pathetic.”

Very true. Ours was worse.

343 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:17:49pm

re: #328 jonhendry

Horseshit.

I opposed the Iraq war from the moment they started the drums to war, trying to tie Saddam Hussein to 9/11, as if OBL didn’t hate Saddam on principle and want him dead. I ALSO think that Putin is out of line in going after Ukraine.

The Russian case for invading Ukraine makes Bush’s pathetic rationale for invading Iraq look honest. They’re both bullshit, but for vastly different reasons.

344 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:17:56pm

re: #333 jonhendry

No, that’s basically what she said: Hey, that’s the past. Obama was elected, and he doesn’t agree with the Iraq invasion. So we get to pretend the past never happened, as if many of the people responsible for Iraq aren’t still in positions of influence (and, in Congress, demanding more action from Obama against Russia!).

Well, she used fewer than 140 characters to state her position, and you’ve at least doubled that to explain what she meant. How long have you been reading her articles? Do you know where she’s published?

345 GeneJockey  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:18:35pm

re: #339 Testy Toad T

I wonder what the statute of limitations is on finding fault with invasions of sovereign nations. Ten years apparently isn’t enough. How about twenty?

Fifty?

Depends on whether it was YOUR bad action, or somebody else’s. If it’s yours, it’s never too soon to tell people to get over it, no matter how egregious. If it’s somebody else’s, then it’s never too late to bring it up.

But yes, the Iraq invasion, especially in light of finding no WMDs, does complicate our moral high ground.

346 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:19:13pm

re: #344 wrenchwench

I used to follow her a bit, at one of the earlier sites she published at, but I haven’t in the last year or two.

347 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:19:47pm

re: #341 RadicalModerate

I wish the righwingers would just make up their minds.

Sorry, but you can’t be a fan of Vladimir Putin and all of his dictatorial tactics while at the same time wanting to bomb Russia.

Sure you can. Supporting Putin = supporting his rebuilding of the USSR one state at a time. Once that’s done, we nuke Moscow off the planet and get greeted as liberators.

See? Easy peasy.

///////

348 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:21:42pm

re: #346 jonhendry

I used to follow her a bit, at one of the earlier sites she published at, but I haven’t in the last year or two.

So from that you’re pretty sure that she thinks the US is given a clean slate after every election?

349 b.d.  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:22:04pm

re: #328 jonhendry

Sorry, but having made such a huge blunder, we really don’t have a lot of credibility to be telling Russia what to do with Ukraine. Russia’s weak argument for acting in Ukraine is still a hell of a lot stronger than our rationale for invading Iraq. So who the hell are we to be telling Russia not to invade?

We’re like Jocelyn Wildenstein criticizing Rose McGowan’s plastic surgery.

Where do we get off telling Russia not to invade after:
The Bay of Pigs
Vietnam
The Spanish American War
The Trail of Tears
Tripoli
Iraq!

350 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:23:52pm

re: #343 Lidane

The Russian case for invading Ukraine makes Bush’s pathetic rationale for invading Iraq look honest. They’re both bullshit, but for vastly different reasons.

I do agree they’re both bullshit excuses, I just think Iraq was worse, so far. Iraq was a massive invasion. Ukraine so far is pretty small. (bullshitness of excuse * size of action) clearly favors Ukraine right now.

As of how things stand right now, I think Ukraine is more on the order of our invasion of Panama.

351 RadicalModerate  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:24:08pm

re: #328 jonhendry

Sorry, but having made such a huge blunder, we really don’t have a lot of credibility to be telling Russia what to do with Ukraine. Russia’s weak argument for acting in Ukraine is still a hell of a lot stronger than our rationale for invading Iraq. So who the hell are we to be telling Russia not to invade?

We’re like Jocelyn Wildenstein criticizing Rose McGowan’s plastic surgery.

One major difference. We voted the party responsible for the Iraq invasion out of office in 2008, and have been diligently trying to repair the damage done to our reputation ever since.
In regards to Russia and Putin, the prior administration had a chance to make a stand against them in 2008 with their military actions against Georgia, but we didn’t hear a peep from the political right on that one.
The US has every right to make a principled stand on Ukraine, even if it does only reach deaf ears.

352 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:24:32pm

re: #348 wrenchwench

Does she think that? I don’t know. It’s the implication of what she wrote.

353 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:24:53pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

We had stronger case for Iraq having WMDs than Putin does for ‘persecution’ of ethnic Russians. And we were going after a genuine tyrant, who had murdered his people by the tens of thousands.

Try again, screwy.

No not really. The Ukraine is a neighbor and has some Russian interests like the Naval base, etc. They also have many Russians from the old USSR. It’s all right there on their doorstep. And since there really is political unrest in the country, he can say he is there as a stabilizing force to keep the country alive and going.

And if he stays until after the next election in a few months, recognizes the new government, maybe cuts some new deals for the military bases and outlets for oil transports etc., he could come out acting like “I am nice guy…why do the US hate me so and question everythink I do? I had nice Olympics…why hate?”

And the freaking Republicans, Tea-Party and Libertarians all going crazy about his strength and resolve would be in love with him like never before. He could read about his poll ratings being higher here than in his own country.

And it wouldn’t surprise me if he is counting on that after he caught the political crap coming out of this country regarding him being seen as Obama’s savior on the Syria deal, etc.

One thing I will never say is Putin is an idiot. I see him as a shrewd joker that can both be a strong player and a bit impish.

354 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:26:09pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Bush: Invaded a country to overthrow a brutal dictator

i wouldn’t be so sure

i invite you to watch Why We Did It

With that in mind, The Rachel Maddow Show in conjunction with MSNBC Longform and Peacock Productions, set to work. The mission? To provide the answer to the question of WHY WE DID IT. Over the last eight months, we have been digging and interviewing and slowly putting together the pieces of the puzzle to discover what lurked beneath the public case for war. We needed to find out once and for all what was behind the Administration’s laser focus on Iraq, almost from its first day in office.

The answer we found and offer up to viewers is both fascinating - and detailed. And its heritage goes back to the days of Jimmy Carter, wends its way through Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton - and ends up in George W. Bush’s White House, with tendrils still extending into the Obama White House today.

i’ll give you three guesses, and the first two don’t count

355 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:26:34pm

re: #338 jonhendry

And Russia actually has significant interests in Ukraine, the navy base, lots of Russian people in Ukraine, etc. None of which was particularly true about the US and Iraq.

Russia’s action in Ukraine reminds me a bit of the US invasion of Panama. We didn’t like the guy in charge there, so we put a new one in.

I was going to use Panama as an example for Dark when he compared Iraq/US to Ukraine/Russia.

Good comment.

356 dog philosopher  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:28:08pm

cough*As vice president under the ailing General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, and at a time when many groups were considered capable of overthrowing the government, Saddam created security forces through which he tightly controlled conflict between the government and the armed forces. In the early 1970s, Saddam nationalized oil and other industries. The state-owned banks were put under his control, leaving the system eventually insolvent mostly due to the Iran-Iraq War, the Gulf War, and UN sanctions. Through the 1970s, Saddam cemented his authority over the apparatuses of government as oil money helped Iraq’s economy to grow at a rapid pace*cough

357 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:29:56pm

re: #342 jonhendry

I think we have a pro-Russia troll here, folks.

358 Lidane  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:32:43pm

re: #350 jonhendry

There’s a key difference here. Iraq was — again — a bullshit war of choice. They did not, however, have nukes pointed at us. Russia does.

We let the previous administration drumbeat us into a shitty, pointless distraction of a war in Iraq because we were still reeling from 9/11 and people simply weren’t looking at geopolitical reality. OBL hated Saddam for being a secular leader. Overthrowing him was a favor for Al Qaeda, not a hardship.

Russia has actual interests in Ukraine, but we can’t just beat the drums of war and invade. The stakes are higher by several orders of magnitude. No matter how shitty and how flimsy Putin’s excuses for invasion are, we can’t just do what we did in Iraq and go in guns blazing. This is going to take finesse and diplomacy.

359 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:32:53pm

re: #354 dog philosopher

i wouldn’t be so sure

i invite you to watch Why We Did It

With that in mind, The Rachel Maddow Show in conjunction with MSNBC Longform and Peacock Productions, set to work. The mission? To provide the answer to the question of WHY WE DID IT. Over the last eight months, we have been digging and interviewing and slowly putting together the pieces of the puzzle to discover what lurked beneath the public case for war. We needed to find out once and for all what was behind the Administration’s laser focus on Iraq, almost from its first day in office.

The answer we found and offer up to viewers is both fascinating - and detailed. And its heritage goes back to the days of Jimmy Carter, wends its way through Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton - and ends up in George W. Bush’s White House, with tendrils still extending into the Obama White House today.

i’ll give you three guesses, and the first two don’t count

That might be a good enough Maddow piece and not so directed by MSNBC to get even Killgore Trout to tune in.

/// : )

360 ObserverArt  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:37:27pm

re: #357 Dark_Falcon

I think we have a pro-Russia troll here, folks.

I agreed with him to a degree. Am I pro Russia troll too?

Dark, you threw out a point that many others are going to disagree with. Are they all pro-Russia?

Defending Iraq after all the mess that turned into isn’t a good tactic in any political debate. You don’t have a lot of facts to offset the costs in treasury and life and limb and final results.

361 jonhendry  Mon, Mar 3, 2014 2:42:24pm

re: #358 Lidane

Russia has actual interests in Ukraine, but we can’t just beat the drums of war and invade. The stakes are higher by several orders of magnitude. No matter how shitty and how flimsy Putin’s excuses for invasion are, we can’t just do what we did in Iraq and go in guns blazing. This is going to take finesse and diplomacy.

I agree with this 100%. I don’t want to fight Russia over this, and it really isn’t an option anyway. We do need to use finesse and diplomacy. I just think Kerry dropped a clanger there with his comment about invading countries like it’s the 19th century. Kerry didn’t use enough finesse. Like it or not, our Secretary of State should keep Iraq in mind - it’s certainly fresh enough in every other country’s mind, and talking like it didn’t happen isn’t a good look.

As I’ve said elsewhere, if Putin gets his way, Ukraine goes back to being an Eastern European kleptocracy under the thumb of Russia, another Eastern European kleptocracy. It’s not like the fight is about keeping the yoke of Communism off of Ukraine.


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