Party of Fiscal Responsibility Watch: The GOP’s Phony Benghazi Probes Have Cost Millions

Wasting enormous amounts of money on hate fantasies
Politics • Views: 13,929

The Pentagon says the Republican Party’s crazy obsession with the fraudulent Benghazi non-scandal and their non-stop “investigations” have cost millions of dollars and thousands of hours of personnel time.

This is your party of fiscal responsibility.

In a March 11 letter, the Pentagon outlined its cooperation with six investigations of the Sept. 11 assault that killed four Americans, including U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, and its response to repetitive requests for information from about 50 congressional hearings, briefings and interviews.

The letter was in response to a request by Rep. Adam Smith of Washington state, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, who questioned the ongoing investigations in light of cuts to the military budget and reports, some written by Republicans, largely clearing the military of any wrongdoing.

“The total cost of compliance with Benghazi-related congressional requests sent to the department and other agencies is estimated to be in the millions of dollars,” the Pentagon said.

For example, retired Gen. Carter Ham, the former commander of U.S. Africa Command, has briefed or testified before congressional panels five times over two years, and yet both the Armed Services Committee and House Oversight and Government Reform has asked Ham to submit to additional interviews.

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519 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:30:15am

But they’re fiscally responsible. Just ask them.

2 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:31:53am

Not really any different than spending five dollars on drug testing to catch one dollar worth of addict on food stamps, or twenty dollars on stricter voting regulations to catch ten cents worth of illegal voters.

It’s about exercising the levers of political power to damage the enemies of the party. There is rarely a deeper meaning or motive. Same shit, different day.

3 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:33:19am

But, they’re just asking questions…..

Comedy Central Video

4 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:34:18am

That is not even counting the millions Obama probably spent on the coverup!
///

5 Skip Intro  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:36:15am

Right up there at the top of the biggest political myths of all time is the one that says the Republican Party is “fiscally responsible”. It runs neck and neck with the one that claims Ronald Regan was a tax cutting, fiscally conservative advocate of small government.

6 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:38:42am

The #GOPShutdown cost local communities tens of millions of dollars, particularly in communities serving national parks closed by the shutdown. It got so bad that some states moved to reopen it with their own state funds (and they’re waiting for federal reimbursement). Everyone knows that the national parks are an economic engine for many parts of the country, but the GOP closed them anyways - along with the rest of the govenrment.

The incessant investigations are no different. Claiming fiscal prudence while wasting taxpayer money on investigations the answers to which were resolved years ago (when the DoD admitted there was nothing they could do because they didn’t have a rapid reaction force, and therefore formed a new force that could respond to most crises of this kind within several hours).

It also ignores that Congress refused to authorize the State Department proposal to improve security across its diplomatic facilities - penny wise, and pound foolish.

But investigations are what Congress critters can do with little effort, and with even less in the way of oversight or limitation, let alone consequences for wild-goose-chases such as the one Issa has engaged in for years. The GOP isn’t interested in governing, so members like Issa will investigate to prop up name recognition, bring in campaign contributions, and make it seem like they’re doing their jobs.

7 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:39:29am

re: #5 Skip Intro

Right up there at the top of the biggest political myths of all time is the one that says the Republican Party is “fiscally responsible”. It runs neck and neck with the one that claims Ronald Regan was a tax cutting, fiscally conservative advocate of small government.

Yeah, but that’s the ACTUAL Reagan you’re talking about, not the imaginary Reagan Conservatives remember. Of course, they also remember their youth as a time of unbridled and unregulated capitalism, low taxes on the rich, no unions, and no pollution.

8 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:39:55am

re: #2 Testy Toad T

Not really any different than spending five dollars on drug testing to catch one dollar worth of addict on food stamps, or twenty dollars on stricter voting regulations to catch ten cents worth of illegal voters.

It’s about exercising the levers of political power to damage the enemies of the party. There is rarely a deeper meaning or motive. Same shit, different day.

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

9 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:40:47am

re: #7 GeneJockey

Yeah, but that’s the ACTUAL Reagan you’re talking about, not the imaginary Reagan Conservatives remember. Of course, they also remember their youth as a time of unbridled and unregulated capitalism, low taxes on the rich, no unions, and no pollution.

Speaking of Reagan:

10 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:41:34am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

Name a time that Democrats spent millions on a worthless investigation.

11 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:42:16am

This is just DoD costs. State Department and minor players are not included, possibly higher. Then there’s the congressional staff itself.

12 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:42:34am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

This observation strictly on process is a bit incomplete without noting that one of the two parties is center-right, and the other party is batshit insane.

13 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:42:44am

How much is Darrell Issa costing the IRS for his bullshit?

14 Skip Intro  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:45:29am

re: #10 Iwouldprefernotto

Name a time that Democrats spent millions on a worthless investigation.

The Clinton blowjob.

Oh wait.

15 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:47:40am

re: #10 Iwouldprefernotto

Name a time that Democrats spent millions on a worthless investigation.

When they investigated dubyah’s torture policy….

Oh wait.

16 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:47:41am

“It is not at only the election of the court, but at the election of the unnamed bureaucrat that decides, today we will have these killer drugs that we mandate. Tomorrow, what drugs will they take off the list? Will I not get life-saving drugs that I need to get?”

That depends Michelle, are the drugs you want allowed by the religious beliefs of Hobby Lobby?

17 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:48:22am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

*Citation needed*

18 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:48:35am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

And the Magical Balance Fairy takes wing!

Yes, a lot of Congressional investigation is partisan grandstanding, but I’d suggest you have a look at Democratic investigations during Reagan/Bush and compare them in number and results with those undertaken by Republicans under Clinton and Obama. What were we looking at under Reagan? A scheme by they White House to circumvent Congress by selling arms to Iran to get money for right wing paramilitary organizations in Nicaragua, and that happened to be true and a number of folks went to jail over it.

Clinton? A real estate deal they lost money on; the suicide of a depressed White House staffer; the White House Travel Office; the President’s roaming eyes.

Obama? A stupid gun trafficking investigation scheme started under Bush; the IRS giving extra scrutiny in checking on whether potentially political organizations were really following the law, and of course, BENGHAZIIIIII!!!

Really, are these situations comparable, in your mind?

20 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:50:40am
21 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:50:51am

Who else did Siemens support “trusting relationship” with?

Chief executive of Germany’s Siemens says firm supports ‘trusting relationship’ with Russian companies after meeting Russian President Vladimir Putin at his residence outside Moscow - @Reuters
end of alert

22 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:50:54am

re: #16 Kragar

[Embedded content]

That depends Michelle, are the drugs you want allowed by the religious beliefs of Hobby Lobby?

What the hell is that woman saying? I can’t make head or tail of it?

23 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:50:56am

24 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:52:17am

re: #20 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Yes, I’m stunned by that. Stunned.

25 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:52:40am

If the Democrats had any balls they would have spent 2006 onward holding endless hearings to reveal how the bullshit intelligence on WMDs was manipulated, politicized, and turned into actionable policy.

26 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:53:16am

HURR HURR!!!!!

27 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:53:29am

re: #21 Justanotherhuman

Who else did Siemens support “trusting relationship” with?

Chief executive of Germany’s Siemens says firm supports ‘trusting relationship’ with Russian companies after meeting Russian President Vladimir Putin at his residence outside Moscow - @Reuters
end of alert

This is Putin’s great trump card: Germans rely too heavily on gas from Russia and trade with Russia to cover the cost of gas imports.

28 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:53:49am

re: #25 Dr. Matt

If the Democrats had any balls they would have spent 2006 onward holding endless hearings to reveal how the bullshit intelligence on WMDs was manipulated, politicized, and turned into actionable policy.

Call me cynical, but I think enough Dems made money off war production to keep their mouths shut about it.

29 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:54:05am

re: #24 Justanotherhuman

Yes, I’m stunned by that. Stunned.

HURR HURR!!!!! TYPICAL DEMOCRATS!!!!! JUST LIKE ALL TEH DEMOCRATS EVER IN TEH WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!

30 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:54:31am

re: #22 GeneJockey

What the hell is that woman saying? I can’t make head or tail of it?

If I can decipher her gibberish, she is worried that a government program trying to make as many healthcare options as possible affordable to citizens might decide not to cover some medicines at some unnamed point in the future because and it kind of rambles out after that.

31 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:54:36am
32 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:55:42am

I’m unsure without finding and viewing the entire press conference whether the county official in this article is crass, being quoted without full context, or just choosing phrases very poorly.

nbcnews.com

33 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:57:08am

RETWEET THIS!

34 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:57:55am
35 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:58:09am

re: #27 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

This is Putin’s great trump card: Germans rely too heavily on gas from Russia and trade with Russia to cover the cost of gas imports.

Never forget.

cracked.com

36 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:58:20am

re: #28 Justanotherhuman

Call me cynical, but I think enough Dems made money off war production to keep their mouths shut about it.

The other point, which requires less cynicism, is that most of them had voted to authorize it.

In the end, I’m not convinced the intel WAS intentionally manipulated. I think it was a combination of confirmation bias and groupthink, as well as Saddam wanting everyone to believe he still had that shit so that people wouldn’t know just how weak he STILL was a decade after the Gulf War.

What galls me is that none of the folks who ridiculed Hans Blix for not being able to find any WMDs ever said, “You know, I was wrong, and Blix was right.”

37 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:58:42am

re: #33 Gus

RETWEET THIS!

[Embedded content]

It’s a damn good question. If Maduro was a rightist, Stone would be calling him a US stooge.

38 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:59:08am

This is just one of several projects Issa has wasted a ton of money on. Fast and Furious, the IRS supposed targeting of conservative organizations, Solyndra, etc.

But the worst thing Issa has done recently was to cut off Rep. Cummings with a throat-cutting gesture and not allow him to speak. He should be yanked from his committee for that, at the least.

39 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 11:59:28am

re: #30 Kragar

If I can decipher her gibberish, she is worried that a government program trying to make as many healthcare options as possible affordable to citizens might decide not to cover some medicines at some unnamed point in the future because and it kind of rambles out after that.

My bad for attempting to impose some sort of rational order onto what is clearly a chaotic and nonsensical mind.

40 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:00:13pm

re: #39 GeneJockey

My bad for attempting to impose some sort of rational order onto what is clearly a chaotic and nonsensical mind.

Bachmann-Gohmert 2016 !!!

41 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:01:12pm

re: #38 wrenchwench

This is just one of several projects Issa has wasted a ton of money on. Fast and Furious, the IRS supposed targeting of conservative organizations, Solyndra, etc.

But the worst thing Issa has done recently was to cut off Rep. Cummings with a throat-cutting gesture and not allow him to speak. He should be yanked from his committee for that, at the least.

He should be censured, period. But no one has the guts to do it.

42 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:01:22pm

re: #36 GeneJockey

The other point, which requires less cynicism, is that most of them had voted to authorize it.

In the end, I’m not convinced the intel WAS intentionally manipulated. I think it was a combination of confirmation bias and groupthink, as well as Saddam wanting everyone to believe he still had that shit so that people wouldn’t know just how weak he STILL was a decade after the Gulf War.

What galls me is that none of the folks who ridiculed Hans Blix for not being able to find any WMDs ever said, “You know, I was wrong, and Blix was right.”

Blix was and still is associated with weakness, and “Eurosocialist weakness” at that. Even I can’t make an admission like that because the very idea feels like I’d be cutting my balls off.

43 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:04:24pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Blix was and still is associated with weakness, and “Eurosocialist weakness” at that. Even I can’t make an admission like that because the very idea feels like I’d be cutting my balls off.

Well, in my business, you have no choice but to admit when you’re wrong, since most of your time is spent trying to prove that you are.
//

Seriously, I have the ability to come up with beautiful, elegant hypotheses which perfectly explain all the data, and which make easily testable predictions which frequently turn out to be dead wrong.

44 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:05:31pm

re: #43 GeneJockey

Well, in my business, you have no choice but to admit when you’re wrong, since most of your time is spent trying to prove that you are.
//

Seriously, I have the ability to come up with beautiful, elegant hypotheses which perfectly explain all the data, and which make easily testable predictions which frequently turn out to be dead wrong.

But that is not in politics, a science in which all data are selected and interpreted selectively and subjectively.

45 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:05:35pm

re: #43 GeneJockey

Well, in my business, you have no choice but to admit when you’re wrong, since most of your time is spent trying to prove that you are.
//

Seriously, I have the ability to come up with beautiful, elegant hypotheses which perfectly explain all the data, and which make easily testable predictions which frequently turn out to be dead wrong.

Maybe it’s the inability to admit error that makes the GOP so anti-science.

46 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:05:39pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Blix was and still is associated with weakness, and “Eurosocialist weakness” at that. Even I can’t make an admission like that because the very idea feels like I’d be cutting my balls off.

So posturing is more important than reality.

This attitude is a big part of the problem with the GOP’s ongoing insanity.

It is telling that the rational point of ambiguity about Saddam’s capabilities and intentions in the inspections and sanctions era is avoided in favor of a point that would be juvenile in a middle school locker room.

47 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:05:59pm

re: #16 Kragar

[Embedded content]

That depends Michelle, are the drugs you want allowed by the religious beliefs of Hobby Lobby?

This speaks to them having not merely a problem with Roe but with Griswold and Eisenstadt. Bachmann is a full pledged fanatic.

48 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:06:31pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Maybe it’s the inability to admit error that makes the GOP so anti-science.

I think so sigh.

49 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:06:57pm

Well, at least they’ve planted the seed. Now, if we could just get WalMart and other retail workers to go that route.

College athletes win first battle in labor union movement

sbnation.com

50 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:07:15pm

Gee, I always admit my mistakes.
Why?
Simple. I hate being wrong.

51 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:07:39pm

A follow-up on a crime fixated on by some right-wing blogs:

Gang of teenage girls who smacked female Temple University student, 19, in the face with a brick taken into custody

Five juveniles in Philadelphia have been taken into custody in connection the assault of a Temple University student with a brick on Friday evening.

The five girls, ages 14, 15 and 17, were arrested early on Tuesday afternoon after police released security camera footage of the gang who also punched two other students in separate incidents within a 20 minute time span.

The five girls have all been interviewed at least three will be charged. The 15-year-old who used a brick to beat a 19-year-old student is expected to be charged with aggravated assault.

‘This was one reign of terror,’ Capt. Frank Banford of Central Detectives told philly.com.

Police released video footage on Monday showing a group of seven girls crossing a street about 6:07 p.m. Police identified four as potential suspects.

Several tips came in as a result of the video, Banford said, including some from high school principals who recognized the girls.

Several of the girls turned themselves in and police are still interested in speaking with several other girls seen in the CCTV footage.

Somehow I doubt Weird Nut Daily is going to run this follow-up story. but this has actually been the norm for Philadelphia: When these sorts of high-profile “gang attacks by youths” happen, the police identify and arrest the perpetrators.

Also note: Mayor Roy Nutter of Philadelphia is both black and a Democrat. So the right-wing meme is further disproven.

52 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:07:45pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Blix was and still is associated with weakness, and “Eurosocialist weakness” at that. Even I can’t make an admission like that because the very idea feels like I’d be cutting my balls off.

eurosocialist weakness? no that is called strength. it takes strength to not give in to the basest desires of the human race. it takes strength to put self-actualization and human quality of living higher than war and materialism.

which of course is why most of western and northern europe keep winning at this ‘game of life’ thing.

53 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:07:49pm

This wingnut is boycotting every business that doesn’t allow guns on the premises. He must get very hungry.

54 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:08:21pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Maybe it’s the inability to admit error that makes the GOP so anti-science.

I thinks it’s even more basic than that. Science encourages rational and evidence-based approaches to public policy issues, and the GOP finds itself on the wrong side of all issues if they are analyzed along those lines.

55 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:08:28pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Blix was right.
The ‘strong’ were wrong.

56 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:08:33pm

re: #46 EPR-radar

So posturing is more important than reality.

This attitude is a big part of the problem with the GOP’s ongoing insanity.

They also fail to understand that doing things like criticizing opponents, belittling them, calling them RINOs, traitors, sluts or parasites, totally diminishes any chance of winning these people over to your point of view.

But the party is still working on the formula that worked in 2004 and 2010 (but failed in 2008 and 2012) of mobilizing the base at the cost of alienating a lot of centrist voters.

57 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:08:40pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Blix was and still is associated with weakness, and “Eurosocialist weakness” at that. Even I can’t make an admission like that because the very idea feels like I’d be cutting my balls off.

Admitting a guy you don’t like was right, and you were wrong, is like cutting your balls off?

Man, that sort of deep emotional investment in your causes and conclusions really is not healthy.

58 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:08:58pm
59 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:09:30pm

re: #53 Pie-onist Overlord

This wingnut is boycotting every business that doesn’t allow guns on the premises. He must get very hungry.

[Embedded content]

that is fantastic then i at least know he will not be eating a meal in proximity to me or my family.

self-ghetto-zation of the gunnuts - perfect

60 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:09:36pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Maybe it’s the inability to admit error that makes the GOP so anti-science.

There’s that, and there’s the whole uncertainty issue. I think Conservatives tend to be people who can’t handle uncertainty. I seen them post countless times that they prefer the ‘certainty’ of the Bible to the uncertainty of Science - “It keeps changing!”

(Well, no, not really. Rarely does a conclusion based on a solid interpretation of the data get overturned. What happens is that a potential interpretation of the data is found to be wrong when more and better data are obtained.)

61 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:09:54pm

re: #58 Gus

[Embedded content]

Lol.
Glenn?
DANCE, FOOL!

62 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:10:42pm

re: #44 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

But that is not in politics, a science in which all data are selected and interpreted selectively and subjectively.

Dude, please don’t call politics a science! A pursuit, a field, whatever. But not a science!

63 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:11:41pm

That word. You keep using it. It doesn’t mean what you think it means, Glenn.

64 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:12:21pm

re: #53 Pie-onist Overlord

65 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:12:25pm

re: #35 Justanotherhuman

From the Cracked article:

Well, a few years ago, in an act of insensitive fuckery so colossal it could blot out the sun, Siemens tried to trademark the name “Zyklon” with the intent of marketing a series of products under the name. Including gas ovens.

Read more: cracked.com

Zyklon B is still in production in the Czech Republic in the factory Draslovka Kolín a.s. in the city of Kolín, under the tradename Uragan D2, and is sold for the purpose of eradicating insects and small animals. The Czech word uragan means “hurricane” or “cyclone” in English.

draslovka.cz

Hard to believe, but it’s still around.

66 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:12:50pm

re: #56 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

They also fail to understand that doing things like criticizing opponents, belittling them, calling them RINOs, traitors, sluts or parasites, totally diminishes any chance of winning these people over to your point of view.

But the party is still working on the formula that worked in 2004 and 2010 (but failed in 2008 and 2012) of mobilizing the base at the cost of alienating a lot of centrist voters.

The plus side of the GOP southern strategy was that it brought in a large number of votes independent of GOP policies other than blowing dog whistles from time to time.

The minus side of the GOP southern strategy was that the resulting lack of any restraint on GOP policy positions has caused the party to drift into such extreme policy positions that no honest political campaigning outside the base is possible.

Any appeal to the middle by this GOP must necessarily be dishonest.

67 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:14:20pm

re: #65 Dr Lizardo

From the Cracked article:

Zyklon B is still in production in the Czech Republic in the factory Draslovka Kolín a.s. in the city of Kolín, under the tradename Uragan D2, and is sold for the purpose of eradicating insects and small animals. The Czech word uragan means “hurricane” or “cyclone” in English.

draslovka.cz

Hard to believe, but it’s still around.

Never Forget!

Youtube Video

68 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:14:56pm

The inability to admit when you’re wrong is not strength.
It’s cowardice.

69 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:14:58pm
70 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:15:25pm

re: #69 Gus

[Embedded content]

No, no he can’t.

71 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:16:11pm

re: #67 Kragar

Never Forget!

[Embedded content]

Quick!
Send forces to protect the Pinochet Petting Zoo!

72 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:16:16pm

re: #65 Dr Lizardo

From the Cracked article:

Zyklon B is still in production in the Czech Republic in the factory Draslovka Kolín a.s. in the city of Kolín, under the tradename Uragan D2, and is sold for the purpose of eradicating insects and small animals. The Czech word uragan means “hurricane” or “cyclone” in English.

draslovka.cz

Hard to believe, but it’s still around.

Real poison. But at least the Czechs aren’t making the ovens to use it in, too.

There are some things you just can’t forgive—ever.

73 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:16:28pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry I often use the Daily FAIL to post these follow-ups, but unlike too many media outlets in the US (I’m looking at you, CNN), the Daily Mail runs the follow-ups to these sorts of stories, which is to say that the newspaper actually reports the news.

74 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:16:37pm

re: #66 EPR-radar

T

The minus side of the GOP southern strategy was that the resulting lack of any restraint on GOP policy positions has caused the party to drift into such extreme policy positions that no honest political campaigning outside the base is possible.

Any appeal to the middle by this GOP must necessarily be dishonest.

And starting around 2010, they were too afraid of being shouted down by some goombah in a tricorn hat at a Town Hall meeting to distance themselves from things like birtherism, death panels or legal rape , which started an attention-grabbing race to the bottom.

And they have not hit bottom yet. A lot of those views have gone mainstream, They tried to distance themselves from Todd Aikin, but that was only for fear of losing the seat, his views still pop up all over the country.

75 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:17:50pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

Quick!
Send forces to protect the Pinochet Petting Zoo!

That great restaurant The Bunker!

76 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:18:07pm

In other news…

Northwestern athletes win NLRB case, ruled to be employees
Northwestern University athletes won a National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) bid for membership to the College Athletes Players Association (CAPA) union on Wednesday.

The school said on Wednesday afternoon that a statement from the school will come soon but that an appeal is expected, according to a tweet from NCAA reporter Allie Grasgreen. The official ruling between Northwestern Univerisity — the employer — and CAPA — the petitioner — can be found here.

NU quarterback Kain Colter tweeted his excitement following the breaking news, saying he’s proud of his teammates and considers it a “huge win for all college athletes.”

In a country where the top three highest paid government employees are the football coaches at the United States Naval Academy, the United States Military Academy, and the United States Air Force Academy, one figures there’s enough money in the system that college athletes can be paid enough to not get busted stealing frozen corndogs from Walmart.

77 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:18:21pm
78 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:18:54pm

re: #72 Justanotherhuman

Real poison. But at least the Czechs aren’t making the ovens to use it in, too.

There are some things you just can’t forgive—ever.

It’s used here as a pesticide. It’s a pretty potent one, that’s for damned sure.

79 jaunte  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:19:39pm

re: #69 Gus

Apparently if it’s illegal to lock up the opposition, Maduro can just have the laws changed until they’re guilty of something.

80 Bulworth  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:20:58pm

re: #53 Pie-onist Overlord

And the 2A by definition means that anyone can carry any kind of gun anywhere whatsoever. //

81 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:21:48pm

re: #80 Bulworth

And the 2A by definition means that anyone can carry any kind of gun anywhere whatsoever. //

Part of that well regulated militia thing

82 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:22:31pm

You treat your athletic programs like a business, don’t you? You make plenty of money off those kids. All schools do.

Northwestern University on NLRB ruling: ‘While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director’s opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students’ - via @Rohan_NU

83 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:23:21pm

re: #80 Bulworth

And the 2A by definition means that anyone can carry any kind of gun anywhere whatsoever. //

How many pretty white girls getting shot to death by legally carrying drunks in bars will it take to create significant support for amending the constitution to remove the second amendment?

84 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:24:09pm

re: #82 Justanotherhuman

You treat your athletic programs like a business, don’t you? You make plenty of money off those kids. All schools do.

Northwestern University on NLRB ruling: ‘While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director’s opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students’ - via @Rohan_NU

The NCAA is only less corrupt than the IOC because it doesn’t operate on a global scale.

85 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:24:46pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Maybe it’s the inability to admit error that makes the GOP so anti-science.

[Nomad]
Error?… Err-or?
Must Analyze!
[/Nomad]

86 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:24:49pm

I’m going to use a gun article from the SHOT Show back in January to illustrate Maturity in action, in this case a greater bit of maturity than I currently posses. The first part is the technical description of the rifle being looked at, and the second part is the maturity:

At SHOT Show, LWRCI showed me an interesting new carbine demonstrator. It looks like their standard IC-style carbine with a 10 round magazine peeking out from the mag well. But then I noticed that there is no magazine release.

Turns out, it features a 10 round, spring loaded, fixed magazine, you grasp the bottom of the magazine and pull until the bullet-shaped loading gate aligns. Then you can feed ammunition into the magazine to top it off. When you are done, you release the magazine and it automatically closes under spring pressure.

SNIP

… However, I was quite dismayed by the reaction from the readers. I noticed industry fans liked the rifle. Many, disappointingly, were outraged by LWRCI’s development of the rifle which they felt was an act of capitulation to laws they don’t agree with. Some mentioned that LWRCI should spend their money on legal action, opposing prohibitive gun legislation. Apparently, they don’t realize how much money the firearms industry pours into organizations that lobby for your gun rights.

I cannot explain this upside down attitude that would rather leave citizens without guns, than offer them something that complies with these laws. The attitude reminds of a spoiled child who won’t accept something unless they get it the way they want it. I find it to be a defeatist attitude that eschews resistance via innovation in favoring hunkering down awaiting change via legislation or the court system, or worse yet, abandoning areas with restrictive gun laws altogether. Naturally, the issue must be confronted via the middle path, with a balance of adaption during periods of prohibition combined with legislative and legal actions including education, lobbying, and court challenges.

That last paragraph is bolded because, whatever you think about guns, it shows a wisdom not often seen on the Internet.

87 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:25:00pm

re: #82 Justanotherhuman

You treat your athletic programs like a business, don’t you? You make plenty of money off those kids. All schools do.

Northwestern University on NLRB ruling: ‘While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director’s opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students’ - via @Rohan_NU

They are the de-facto minor leagues for the NFL and NBA. They should drop the pretense and simply allow them to be “student athletes” who are allowed to study part-time while training for four seasons and then given the option to finish their degrees later.

88 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:25:13pm

re: #82 Justanotherhuman

You treat your athletic programs like a business, don’t you? You make plenty of money off those kids. All schools do.

Northwestern University on NLRB ruling: ‘While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director’s opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students’ - via @Rohan_NU

ahh - some people in america are trying to come to terms with its terrible professional and student athletic situation…. what with all the communism, and usury of “students” as property etc

it is all in a name right? call them students we can easily and comfortably forget that adnan januzaj is 17 years old and world class.

the american athletic system is broken…. and its a shame and a crime..

89 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:25:58pm

In some countries, most notably Venezuela, this vintage left-wing, anti-American fervor is not small, but is predominant, which is what has led that country to be under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Hugo Chavez, whose primary interest in attending this Latin American regional summit seems to be to lure Bush and the U.S. into some sort of game of childish taunts rather than doing something constructive to aid his impoverished, unstable country.

90 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:27:15pm

re: #83 EPR-radar

How many pretty white girls getting shot to death by legally carrying drunks in bars will it take to create significant support for amending the constitution to remove the second amendment?

That depends, what was she wearing?

I wish that was a joke.

91 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:27:49pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Which is normal for both parties in American politics. The purpose of many Congressional investigations is simply to troll the ‘other side’.

Tu quoque is generally acknowledged to be a logical fallacy.

92 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:28:03pm

re: #89 Gus

In some countries, most notably Venezuela, this vintage left-wing, anti-American fervor is not small, but is predominant, which is what has led that country to be under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Hugo Chavez, whose primary interest in attending this Latin American regional summit seems to be to lure Bush and the U.S. into some sort of game of childish taunts rather than doing something constructive to aid his impoverished, unstable country.

its interesting to note - that while the bridge from caracas to the airport fell down, limiting access to the airport, in America - katrina was destroying an entire u.s. city of a million or more people,.

Sure Venezuela and chavez were bad…. but they cant lay claim to new orleans…

some very valid and pointed perspective….

93 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:29:31pm

also, while chavez was undeniably a bad leader, he never led his country into aggressive warfare invading other countries without provocation and leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths

more of that pointed perspective.

perspective matters.

94 Gus  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:29:38pm

In some sense, Iraqi democracy is a Frankenstein which we have created but now cannot control. Democracy is hardly a guarantee of pro-U.S. Governments. Iran has elections, and Hugo Chavez’s power has been repeatedly bolstered by massive electoral victories. And, of course, Adolph Hitler became Chancellor by virtue of the Nazi Party’s genuine victory in German elections.

95 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:30:35pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry I often use the Daily FAIL to post these follow-ups, but unlike too many media outlets in the US (I’m looking at you, CNN), the Daily Mail runs the follow-ups to these sorts of stories, which is to say that the newspaper >actually reports the news.

As long as you cease using Kevin Williamson, I don’t care what else you use.

96 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:31:04pm

re: #83 EPR-radar

I hope that was a joke. But if not, note that changing the Constitution doesn’t require large majority support of the total population, it requires a largew majority of states to go along with it. An amendment needs two thirds of both houses of Congress, which means it needs 67 senators to vote in favor and then it needs to be ratified by 3/4 of the states. And something as anti-gun as you suggest will never get that kind of support, nor should it.

97 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:31:46pm

re: #87 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

They are the de-facto minor leagues for the NFL and NBA. They should drop the pretense and simply allow them to be “student athletes” who are allowed to study part-time while training for four seasons and then given the option to finish their degrees later.

Which sort of defeats the proclaimed goals of the universities - education. As compared to being the defacto minor leagues for two major sports.

And these programs get different treatment and attention than their student-athletes in all the other sports.

98 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:32:32pm

re: #93 palmerskiss

also, while chavez was undeniably a bad leader, he never led his country into aggressive warfare invading other countries without provocation and leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths

more of that pointed perspective.

perspective matters.

Yet none of these flaws are limited to one kind of governance only. We see these sins committed by left and right over the decades. Funny how so many seem determined to think it is. Too many think their favorite brand of government can do no wrong.

99 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:32:40pm

re: #91 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Tu quoque is generally acknowledged to be a logical fallacy.

Is that the Magical Balance fairy’s Latin name?

100 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:33:25pm

Heh.

101 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:36:02pm
102 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:36:13pm

re: #96 Dark_Falcon

I hope that was a joke. But if not, note that changing the Constitution doesn’t require large majority support of the total population, it requires a largew majority of states to go along with it. An amendment needs two thirds of both houses of Congress, which means it needs 67 senators to vote in favor and then it needs to be ratified by 3/4 of the states. And something as anti-gun as you suggest will >never get that kind of support, nor should it.

That wasn’t entirely a joke. I’m well aware of the process for constitutional amendment, but I can also imagine what a few more decades of NRA offensiveness and stand your ground cases will give us, not to mention further innovations in bad craziness like the recently passed GA law.

And I’m deadly serious that what will move the public opinion needle on this is suitably “innocent” victims of gun insanity as opposed to the statistical facts that I personally view as being more significant.

103 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:36:36pm

re: #98 Political Atheist

Yet none of these flaws are limited to one kind of governance only. We see these sins committed by left and right over the decades. Funny how so many seem determined to think it is. Too many think their favorite brand of government can do no wrong.

my point is - we are too quick to criticize other nations - who, quite honestly - have not behaved as badly as we have.
crimea? sorry - nothing - nothing compared to iraq

putin, for all his ills, for all his megalomania - is still a better actor on the world stage than the united states was from 2000-2009

there are few nations who behaved in as bad a manner as the united states - and to watch americans call out everyone else and their uncle without looking in the mirror is as exasperating as it is dishonest.

point out how bad chavez was - and he was bad - but we were worse - and we live in a democracy - we have only ourselves to blame.

maybe we can remember that when we call for snowden to be punished….. who is going to avenge the hundreds of thousands of deaths in iraq?

perspective people…

104 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:37:15pm

re: #94 Gus

In some sense, Iraqi democracy is a Frankenstein which we have created but now cannot control. Democracy is hardly a guarantee of pro-U.S. Governments. Iran has elections, and Hugo Chavez’s power has been repeatedly bolstered by massive electoral victories. And, of course, Adolph Hitler became Chancellor by virtue of the Nazi Party’s genuine victory in German elections.

Eh, Al-Maliki’s not that bad. His “grind them down without massive assaults” strategy in Anbar is a good one and we’ve been helping him out with it.

105 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:39:04pm

re: #102 EPR-radar

That wasn’t entirely a joke. I’m well aware of the process for constitutional amendment, but I can also imagine what a few more decades of NRA offensiveness and stand your ground cases will give us, not to mention further innovations in bad craziness like the recently passed GA law.

And I’m deadly serious that what will move the public opinion needle on this is suitably “innocent” victims of gun insanity as opposed to the statistical facts that I personally view as being more significant.

We already have the guy in Florida shot for a tweeting dispute and popcorn assault.

106 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:39:44pm

re: #103 palmerskiss

I’ll disagree in part on Iraq. Deposing a repellant regime and then leaving is considerably less of a violation of international law than annexing a chunk of a neighboring country because you want to.

107 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:40:00pm

re: #105 Feline Fearless Leader

We already have the guy in Florida shot for a tweeting dispute and popcorn assault.

That was weapons-grade popcorn!

108 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:40:19pm

re: #103 palmerskiss

If you think Putin is a “better actor on the world stage” than George W. Bush, then frankly you can fuck right of.

109 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:40:20pm

re: #82 Justanotherhuman

You treat your athletic programs like a business, don’t you? You make plenty of money off those kids. All schools do.

Northwestern University on NLRB ruling: ‘While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director’s opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students’ - via @Rohan_NU

I would wager that Northwestern has many students who are also employees of the university. Seems like we called it “work study” back in the day.

I don’t see why athletes should be any different.

(Not trying to single out Northwestern here; almost everybody has their hand in this particular cookie jar)

110 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:41:00pm

re: #99 wrenchwench

Is that the Magical Balance fairy’s Latin name?

Well, the official name is Fata Magica Paritatis, but she answers to Tu quoque if you catch her in the proper mood.

111 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:42:02pm

re: #106 EPR-radar

I’ll disagree in part on Iraq. Deposing a repellant regime and then leaving is considerably less of a violation of international law than annexing a chunk of a neighboring country because you want to.

no it is not - simply no - the death toll in iraq is well over 100,000.

that is death toll - over 100,000.

keep telling yourself that makes you better than annexing a state that was a partition in which the populace actually want to secede..

tell yourself that is a bigger crime than aggressive illegal unprovoked warfare.

112 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:43:12pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Eh, Al-Maliki’s not that bad. His “grind them down without massive assaults” strategy in Anbar is a good one and we’ve been helping him out with it.

I would also expect the US to try to help Iraq integrate the Hellfire into the Mi-28 ‘Havoc’ gunship helos Iraq has purchased from Russia. This will give Russia a good look at the Hellfire, but the US will get an inside look at the Havoc. The balance of advantage will be in our favor, and making our missiles adaptable to non-US platforms helps keep our weapons exports competitive.

113 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:43:35pm

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

If you think Putin is a “better actor on the world stage” than George W. Bush, then frankly you can fuck right of.

oh right - because telling someone to fuck right off is an answer to pointing out that this country is responsible for a war that was unneeded.

and that makes putin worse than bush.

ok.

no problem with perspective there - which is why your answer was so ad-hom.

114 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:44:33pm

re: #103 palmerskiss

putin, for all his ills, for all his megalomania - is still a better actor on the world stage than the united states was from 2000-2009

What scale are you using to measure this?

Putin doesn’t have 1/100th of the power that the US had during that time period. If he did, he would use it.

115 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:44:37pm

Party of Fiscal Responsibility

my ass

In Republicanism There Are No Consistent Principles

in regard to obamacare, the drumbeat for the past few months has been ‘obamacare is an unmitigated disaster and we must repeal every word’

still, they fulminate repeatedly without a hint of irony

‘how dare the obama administration modify one word of this law unilaterally?!?!!11”

e.g.:

” The rules, which will apply to the federal exchanges operating in three dozen states, will essentially create a large loophole even as White House officials have repeatedly said that the March 31 deadline was firm. The extra time will not technically alter the deadline but will create a broad new category of people eligible for what’s known as a special enrollment period.”

Isn’t that special? They have a deadline that will be extended on an honor system. What part of this law is actually being enforced as written? Is any of it?

116 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:44:47pm

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

If you think Putin is a “better actor on the world stage” than George W. Bush, then frankly you can fuck right of.

Interesting question, really. Bush unquestionably did a whole hell of a lot more harm, in terms of lives lost, than Putin has done.

Bush thought he was acting not only in the best interest of America but also the world as a whole, but he based all this on a deeply flawed and mistaken understanding of history, world politics, morality, and the limits of power.

Putin has, as far as I can tell, no such grand illusions. He’s acting to maintain his country’s place in the region in the face of US-allied Western encroachment.

117 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:45:03pm

re: #109 Testy Toad T

I would wager that Northwestern has many students who are also employees of the university. Seems like we called it “work study” back in the day.

I don’t see why athletes should be any different.

(Not trying to single out Northwestern here; almost everybody has their hand in this particular cookie jar)

i wonder how my father’s going to react to this one, he graduated from Northwestern, so he’s sure to ask me about it. Anyone have a good article I can use to brief him?

118 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:45:07pm

re: #114 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What scale are you using to measure this?

Putin doesn’t have 1/100th of the power that the US had during that time period. If he did, he would use it.

“Russia is a regional power”

-Barack Obama

119 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:45:12pm

re: #114 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What scale are you using to measure this?

Putin doesn’t have 1/100th of the power that the US had during that time period. If he did, he would use it.

maybe - but what if’s do not inoculate one against - what actually happened…

120 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:45:41pm

re: #103 palmerskiss

my point is - we are too quick to criticize other nations - who, quite honestly - have not behaved as badly as we have.
crimea? sorry - nothing - nothing compared to iraq

two wrongs don’t make a right

121 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:45:56pm

re: #106 EPR-radar

And Russia has already done this twice. Crimea and South Ossetia.

The US invasion of Iraq will be debated endlessly, but Hussein broke countless international laws and the genocide convention for years before the invasion. Deposing him was more than appropriate under those circumstances alone - the WMD argument turned out to be vaporware. The WMD argument was the primary argument, but not the only one to go after Saddam.

What happened after the invasion, and the subsequent mess that we left the country is a testament to how poorly we considered the consequences of what to do once we got in - and realized too late that all too many Iraqis didn’t want us there, even if we were liberators.

It also took the eye off the ball in Afghanistan, and may have led to a prolonged conflict there as well.

Both points will be endlessly debated of course, but to compare US actions in Iraq or Afghanistan to what Russia has been up to is disingenuous.

122 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:46:07pm

re: #120 dog philosopher

two wrongs don’t make a right reich

123 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:46:09pm

Russia can do what it did because Iraq.
Wheee.

124 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:46:22pm

re: #120 dog philosopher

two wrongs don’t make a right

yes - but ignoring one wrong to point out another does not make a right either.

125 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:47:04pm

re: #123 Varek Raith

Russia can do what it did because Iraq.
Wheee.

and that is not an even honest representation of the point - so i see no reason to debate you on it.

when you want to honestly represent what i said - then we can talk

126 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:47:08pm

re: #113 palmerskiss

oh right - because telling someone to fuck right off is an answer to pointing out that this country is responsible for a war that was unneeded.

and that makes putin worse than bush.

ok.

no problem with perspective there - which is why your answer was so ad-hom.

You and DF are arguing ‘worse than’ without an ISO standard for outlaw international behavior. Neither action passes the post-WWII laws prohibiting aggressive war.

127 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:47:28pm

re: #123 Varek Raith

Russia can do what it did because Iraq.
Wheee.

That is not the point. But we have little moral authority to object to what Russia did in Crimea because of Iraq.

128 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:47:52pm

re: #126 Decatur Deb

You and DF are arguing ‘worse than’ without an ISO standard for outlaw international behavior. Neither action passes the post-WWII laws prohibiting aggressive war.

and that is my point…..

my point is plank. in. own. eye.

129 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:48:17pm

re: #127 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

That is not the point. But we have little moral authority to object to what Russia did in Crimea because of Iraq.

thank you…. that is my point.

130 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:48:25pm

re: #113 palmerskiss

oh right - because telling someone to fuck right off is an answer to pointing out that this country is responsible for a war that was unneeded.

and that makes putin worse than bush.

ok.

no problem with perspective there - which is why your answer was so ad-hom.

Comparative ethics is basically pointless. The US also did a lot of things between 2000 and 2009 other than invade Iraq, like:

Federal Government: The United States government has allocated US$ 400,000 (GBP 200,000, EUR 300,000) to India, Indonesia, the Maldives and Sri Lanka. Officials are currently working on a USD 4m (GBP 2m) aid package to help the Red Cross. Also, the United States has dispatched disaster teams to aid the nations affected. The United States is also preparing an initial USD 15 million (GBP 8m) aid package for affected nations. An additional USD 20m (GBP 11m) has been offered as an emergency line of credit. On 31 December the aid was raised to USD 350m (GBP 190m, EUR 260m).
Military: The United States has dispatched numerous C-5 Galaxy and C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlifters and ten C-130 Hercules tactical airlifters containing disaster supplies, nine P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft for search and rescue support, and several teams from the Departments of State and Defense to coordinate additional assistance. They are using Utapao Naval Air Base in Thailand as their regional hub.
Additionally, the United States has offered assistance from its troops stationed in Japan. USS Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier battle group, which was in port in Hong Kong, was dispatched to the coast of Sumatra to provide support to the Indonesian province of Aceh. In addition, an Expeditionary Strike Group led by USS Bonhomme Richard, scheduled for a port call in Guam, were dispatched to render assistance.
A total of 48 Navy and Marine Corps helicopters are involved. Each ship can produce around 90,000 US gallons (340,000 L) of fresh water per day. The US Navy has also deployed the USNS Mercy, a 1,000-bed hospital ship (to be initially staffed to support 250 patient beds).[122] More than 12,600 Department of Defense personnel are involved in the relief effort, Operation Unified Assistance.[123]
Private Sector: As of 10 January 2005 US based relief groups and non-governmental organisations reported having raised over USD 515m. One charity said online pledges were arriving at a rate of USD 100,000 an hour. Notable donors include American corporations; among them the Coca-Cola Company (USD 10m), Dow Chemical Company (USD 5m), The New York Stock Exchange Foundation (USD 1m), Microsoft Corporation (USD 3m), and Dell (USD 3m initial, up to USD 5m through employee fundraising).
Pharmaceutical companies such as Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson and Bristol-Myers Squibb have provided medical supplies and drugs in addition to monetary assistance. Hollywood celebrities have also donated, including Steven Spielberg (USD 1.5m) and Sandra Bullock (USD 1m). Private citizens, communities and schools have also begun fundraising efforts and have contributed.
US President George W. Bush donated USD 16,000 from his personal funds; the city of Fargo, North Dakota gave USD 10,000 of taxpayer money; and motorists in Chattanooga, Tennessee have been allowed to donate money to the relief effort in place of paying for traffic citations.[124] President Bush also called for a nationwide fundraising drive, headed by former US Presidents George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton, and ordered American flags to fly at half-staff “as a mark of respect for the victims of the Indian Ocean Earthquake and the resulting Tsunamis”.[125]

Vs. Russia’s contribution:

Two transport planes of the Russian Ministry for Emergency Situations landed on Sri Lanka on 27 December carrying humanitarian aid. The planes were carrying 110 tents and 2200 blankets with a total weight of 25 tonnes, Russia also sent a rescue helicopter Bo-105, on board of which rescuers flew over the area of the calamity and searched for and evacuated people. One more plane was sent on 30 December with tents, drinking water, water cleaning stations and other humanitarian aid.[104] The town of Beslan, scene of the 2004 school hostage crisis, donated RUB 1m (USD 36,000) from the fund set up after the mass hostage-taking.[105] On 11 January Russia sent field hospital equipment to Indonesia. Nearly 150 tons of humanitarian aid were flown to Sri Lanka, Thailand and Indonesia from 27 December to 10 January. The humanitarian cargoes, part of them supplied by Belarus, include tents, blankets, bedding, water purification installations and flour.[106]

To actually compare the effect and influences of two entities as complex as the United States and the Russian Federation is basically impossible, but if you do want to do it, you need to include the good along with the bad.

131 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:48:38pm

re: #124 palmerskiss

yes - but ignoring one wrong to point out another does not make a right either.

Who, aside from maybe D_F, is ignoring the wrong of the Iraq invasion?

We have self-flagellated endlessly for that fuckup. How much is enough? How much will we have to be apologetic and ashamed for the Iraq War before we are allowed to condemn Russia’s naked land-grab?

Will we be able to do it in twenty years? Two hundred? Certainly the Iraq invasion pales in comparison to dozens of international affairs that have happened over the last two centuries.

This is a very Greenwaldian deflection.

132 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:48:50pm

re: #124 palmerskiss

yes - but ignoring one wrong to point out another does not make a right either.

the president talked about iraq at some length in his remarks today

you’ll recall he did not support the action at the time

133 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:49:31pm

re: #125 palmerskiss

and that is not an even honest representation of the point - so i see no reason to debate you on it.

when you want to honestly represent what i said - then we can talk

Yeah, well, I see that attitude a lot on the ‘progressive’ left these days.
You can’t mention Russian aggression without people like you going “Yeah, but Iraq!” or “DRONES!”
I see the perspective. I know what we did was wrong. Yet, you guys will hang Iraq over the US’s head till the end of time every time another country does wrong.

134 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:49:38pm

re: #127 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

That is not the point. But we have little moral authority to object to what Russia did in Crimea because of Iraq.

Does ‘moral authority’ grow back?

135 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:49:39pm

re: #130 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Comparative ethics is basically pointless. The US also did a lot of things between 2000 and 2009 other than invade Iraq, like:

Vs. Russia’s contribution:

To actually compare the effect and influences of two entities as complex as the United States and the Russian Federation is basically impossible, but if you do want to do it, you need to include the good along with the bad.

aid discussions are another issue… if we want to parse aid, and charity - then we can parse those numbers - but when reduced to per capita basis - the u.s. will not champion that argument either…. but we can have it if you want….

136 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:49:41pm

re: #119 palmerskiss

maybe - but what if’s do not inoculate one against - what actually happened…

By the way, really hate it when people end a sentence with an ellipsis. An ellipsis indicates there’s something more to be said. If you do have something more to say, then say it. If you don’t, then don’t use an ellipsis.

137 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:50:10pm

re: #127 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

That is not the point. But we have little moral authority to object to what Russia did in Crimea because of Iraq.

This is where the belief in American Exceptionalism gets you in trouble. If you believe we can do what we believe is right, because our hearts are pure, you have very little objective place to complain when someone else does it.

Clearly, what Putin has done in Crimea was wrong, but the fingers we point are not clean.

138 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:50:38pm

re: #133 Varek Raith

Yeah, well, I see that attitude a lot on the ‘progressive’ left these days.
You can’t mention Russian aggression without people like you going “Yeah, but Iraq!” or “DRONES!”
I see the perspective. I know what we did was wrong. Yet, you guys will hang Iraq over the US’s head till the end of time every time another country does wrong.

hang it on our neck? no one - not one person was punished for iraq.

when justice is carried out by americans - you can take that yoke off the neck - until some form of justice is reached - the yoke is ours to wear.

139 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:51:30pm

if a president who was elected in large part because of his objection to the iraq action can’t criticize another country because of iraq, then how far does this collective guilt go?

140 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:51:32pm

re: #136 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

By the way, really hate it when people end a sentence with an ellipsis. An ellipsis indicates there’s something more to be said. If you do have something more to say, then say it. If you don’t, then don’t use an ellipsis.

it may upset you - it is my personal style - you are going to have to get used to it or hate me for it…

141 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:51:36pm

re: #134 wrenchwench

Does ‘moral authority’ grow back?

I think it can be recovered over time, yes…

142 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:52:25pm

re: #139 dog philosopher

if a president who was elected in large part because of his objection to the iraq action can’t criticize another country because of iraq, then how far does this collective guilt go?

we are a democracy… it is not about obama - democracy means never getting to blame anyone else….

want to blame someone else - live in a dictatorship

143 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:52:48pm

Lol.

144 RealityBasedSteve  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:52:51pm

Perhaps one day, a politician will get up and make a speech like this…

Youtube Video

RBS

145 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:00pm

re: #134 wrenchwench

Does ‘moral authority’ grow back?

Chief Joseph always wondered about that.

There is not much evidence of, or use for, moral authority in the intent of nations.

146 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:34pm

re: #142 palmerskiss

we are a democracy… it is not about obama - democracy means never getting to blame anyone else….

want to blame someone else - live in a dictatorship

i don’t understand your argument here

???

147 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:37pm

re: #103 palmerskiss

my point is - we are too quick to criticize other nations - who, quite honestly - have not behaved as badly as we have.
crimea? sorry - nothing - nothing compared to iraq

putin, for all his ills, for all his megalomania - is still a better actor on the world stage than the united states was from 2000-2009

there are few nations who behaved in as bad a manner as the united states - and to watch americans call out everyone else and their uncle without looking in the mirror is as exasperating as it is dishonest.

point out how bad chavez was - and he was bad - but we were worse - and we live in a democracy - we have only ourselves to blame.

maybe we can remember that when we call for snowden to be punished….. who is going to avenge the hundreds of thousands of deaths in iraq?

perspective people…

I’m sorry but these comparisons while obviously sincerely heartfelt just skip over too much. With all due respect for undeniable mistakes like Iraq to remove Saddam, If we are to compare Russian and American bad leadership, how is it we skip Stalin? There are dozens of nations that act far and away worse than us. See China and the cultural revolution. Cambodia and the killing fields. This to say nothing of certain African nations.

I don’t seek to understate our wrongs. I just don’t agree they fit that scale of evil. As a part of a world community with all kinds of good and bad actors, we do have a voice. Nothing we have done requires our silence on the world stage, particularly on Snowden That’s just asking too much IMHO.

148 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:48pm

re: #136 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

By the way, really hate it when people end a sentence with an ellipsis. An ellipsis indicates there’s something more to be said. If you do have something more to say, then say it. If you don’t, then don’t use an ellipsis.

That’s the sort of super-grammatical nonsense up with which I am no longer willing to put!
//

149 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:50pm

re: #142 palmerskiss

we are a democracy… it is not about obama - democracy means never getting to blame anyone else….

want to blame someone else - live in a dictatorship

So, who can criticize Russian aggression?

150 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:53:57pm

re: #141 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

I think it can be recovered over time, yes…

It’s like virginity.

151 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:54:06pm

re: #135 palmerskiss

aid discussions are another issue…

No, not if you’re talking about who is a better or worse actor on the world stage, they’re not.

if we want to parse aid, and charity - then we can parse those numbers - but when reduced to per capita basis - the u.s. will not champion that argument either…. but we can have it if you want….

Oh god the ellipsis. I didn’t claim the US ruled the waves in per capita. You are alleging that the US was a worse actor between 2000 and 2009 than Russia.

To actually claim that, you would have had to do a shitload of analysis that you haven’t, actually, done. The US is a busybody, and it does a ton of shit. A ton of it is bad shit, like things that allow US corporations to be assholes abroad. Other things we do are good, like donations of technology and equipment. It’s a monumental, insane calculus to try to figure something like that out.

And say you do: Say you manage to climb that sociological mountain and after years have decided how to operationalize your variables and come to a definitive conclusion about who was the worse actor during that time period.

What does that get you in the now? What relevance does that have to the modern day? What does it then mean, especially after a change of administrations in the US, so that the George Bush is no longer in power?

152 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:54:07pm

re: #138 palmerskiss

hang it on our neck? no one - not one person was punished for iraq.

when justice is carried out by americans - you can take that yoke off the neck - until some form of justice is reached - the yoke is ours to wear.

Everyone is stained forever. All countries are awful and terrible. What a very useful and cogent analysis.

153 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:54:12pm

re: #138 palmerskiss

hang it on our neck? no one - not one person was punished for iraq.

when justice is carried out by americans - you can take that yoke off the neck - until some form of justice is reached - the yoke is ours to wear.

Perpetual guilt is fairly useless. On that basis, Iraq is a negligible affair for the US in view of slavery and the genocide/dispossession of native Americans.

154 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:54:42pm

re: #145 Decatur Deb

Chief Joseph always wondered about that.

There is not much evidence of, or use for, moral authority in the intent of nations.

Semi-related, I find it odd that ‘moral hazard’ is a concept of the world of finance.

155 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:55:32pm

Who spilled a dollop of Firebagger in my LGF?

156 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:55:36pm

re: #140 palmerskiss

it may upset you - it is my personal style - you are going to have to get used to it or hate me for it…

I’m not going to hate you for it, but it is gong to be annoyingly sloppy every time I see it, yeah.

157 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:55:44pm

my point is this - if we somehow endeavor to position ourselves as a great people, a great culture, then papering over our collective past - then we are neither great nor honest.

we were wrong to invade iraq. many thousands died because of our error. this cannot be denied. it does not go away. it is our responsibility - we live in a democracy - we all share the blame.

call out chavez and putin and everyone else you want - but remember - that finger points out - four fingers point back….

158 jaunte  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:56:16pm

…

159 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:56:20pm

re: #146 dog philosopher

i don’t understand your argument here

???

my argument is electing a president who was against the iraq war is not justice for the iraq war - which seemed to be the claim…

160 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:56:45pm

re: #138 palmerskiss

hng t n r nck? n n - nt n prsn ws pnshd fr rq.

whn jstc s crrd t b mrcns - y cn tk tht yk ff th nck - ntl sm frm f jstc s rchd - th yk s rs t wr.

The Transnational Prog says what?

161 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:56:49pm

re: #155 Testy Toad T

Who spilled a dollop of Firebagger in my LGF?

Just a bit of tabasco for the bloody mary.

162 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:56:50pm

re: #157 palmerskiss

therefore, say nothing when you see an injustice. Because collective responsibility.

163 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:57:21pm

re: #156 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m not going to hate you for it, but it is gong to be annoyingly sloppy every time I see it, yeah.

‘gong ‘

and so will your missing i’s.

we all have our crosses to bear.

164 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:57:29pm

re: #158 jaunte

…

Now you’re just picking on Obdicut.

165 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:58:04pm

re: #139 dog philosopher

if a president who was elected in large part because of his objection to the iraq action can’t criticize another country because of iraq, then how far does this collective guilt go?

Well, you said it better than I would have in my frustration at all this guilt-laden piling on.

166 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:58:06pm

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

The Transnational Prog says what?

You could try countering with facts and opinion. I know you can do better.

167 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:58:09pm

re: #146 dog philosopher

i don’t understand your argument here

???

I do. What a Democracy does, it does with the consent of the governed. BUSH didn’t invade Iraq, for example, WE did. We elected him and the Congress who authorized the action, then we RE-elected him.

The people of Iraq, OTOH, didn’t bear responsibility for the actions of Saddam, because they had little or no say in the government.

Funny, though, which one suffered more for the actions of their governments.

168 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:58:14pm

re: #162 Internet Tough Guy

therefore, say nothing when you see an injustice. Because collective responsibility.

again you miss the point and try and simplify it to make an argument work.

i never said we should not call out injustice - i quite clearly called for perspective - on people like chavez.

169 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:59:39pm

re: #157 palmerskiss

we were wrong to invade iraq. many thousands died because of our error. this cannot be denied. it does not go away. it is our responsibility - we live in a democracy - we all share the blame.

Oh, what a pile of smarmy emoprog bullshit. A lot of people were lied to, and a lot of people believed those lies, and there’s some level of reasonably expected honesty and competence from one’s elected officials. I’ll take a bit of blame for being naively led in a dumb and bad and awful direction, but let’s not pretend that blame is some sort of binary-valued thing.

This isn’t some fucking hippie drum circle. It’s a republic, with dramatically unequally distributed power and responsibility. Those who had great power and responsibility abused it, and now no longer enjoy it.

170 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:59:52pm

ok guys - here is a question for you - a drunk driver gets in a car, drives, crashes and kills 5 children - should he be punished?

171 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:00:04pm

re: #168 palmerskiss

again you miss the point and try and simplify it to make an argument work.

i never said we should not call out injustice - i quite clearly called for perspective - on people like chavez.

Most of us see the perspective.

172 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:00:04pm

re: #168 palmerskiss

no you just said what we say should be ignored because Iraq…

173 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:00:22pm

re: #157 palmerskiss

my point is this - if we somehow endeavor to position ourselves as a great people, a great culture, then papering over our collective past - then we are neither great nor honest.

Who is ‘we’?

we were wrong to invade iraq. many thousands died because of our error. this cannot be denied. it does not go away. it is our responsibility - we live in a democracy - we all share the blame.

First of all, it isn’t true that in a democracy blame gets shared out equally. I worked against the invasion of Iraq, I spent hours and sweat to stop it from happening. Or take my neighbor, an 82 year old shut-in. It’s not her fucking fault that Bush decided to cook up propaganda. Collective punishment sucks when it’s applied to the Palestinians, and it sucks when it’s applied to the United States.

call out chavez and putin and everyone else you want - but remember - that finger points out - four fingers point back….

And therefore what? What is the actual result of this thought? What do we then do, how do we then act on this knowledge, and what relevance does it have, and why on god’s green earth do you think people here don’t feel that Iraq is a huge blot on the US’s record, why on earth do you think people here are forgetting it?

174 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:00:50pm

re: #169 Testy Toad T

Oh, what a pile of smarmy emoprog bullshit. A lot of people were lied to, and a lot of people believed those lies, and there’s some level of reasonably expected honesty and competence from one’s elected officials. I’ll take a bit of blame for being naively led in a dumb and bad and awful direction, but let’s not pretend that blame is some sort of binary-valued thing.

This isn’t some fucking hippie drum circle. It’s a republic, with dramatically unequally distributed power and responsibility. Those who had great power and responsibility abused it, and now no longer enjoy it.

oh bull - you live in a democracy - you own it.

that simple…that is the point of democracy - of, for and by the people..

you simply do no get to blame the government in a democracy - because the government is you.

175 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:00:51pm

re: #170 palmerskiss

No, because I drank a beer once so I do not have the moral authority to judge a drunk driver.

176 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:01:10pm

re: #170 palmerskiss

ok guys - here is a question for you - a drunk driver gets in a car, drives, crashes and kills 5 children - should he be punished?

Yep.
So should those who manipulated intel to get us in to Iraq.

Should Russia be punished?

177 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:01:13pm

Chavez was able to stay in power as long as he did because of all the money he earned selling us oil…talk about responsibility.

178 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:01:18pm
179 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:01:25pm

re: #175 Internet Tough Guy

No, because I drank a beer once so I do not have the moral authority to judge a drunk driver.

is this what passes for debate for you?

180 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:01:38pm

re: #164 wrenchwench

Now you’re just picking on Obdicut.

Although really, a better response would be like the one in the joke, where someone says, “Where are we going to?” and is dinged for ending a sentence with a preposition, and responds:

“Okay. Where are we going to, asshole?”
///

181 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:06pm

let’s be clear here:

1) a president takes the action, without submitting the proposition to the voters, of invading a country, overthrowing its government, setting up a new democratic government - according to our specifications - which then operates democratically and negotiates our withdrawal.

our friends get to keep the profits from oil processing instead of the saddam government, and the new government of iraq is unable to be anything but our, ahem, ally

2) a president takes the action, without consulting the other nation, of taking away a part of that nation and appending it to his nation

listen - i am not george bush, and despite the fact that i am an american, i don’t need permission from anybody to criticize vladimir putin, and the president doesn’t either

unless you want to establish the principle that you - and i mean you - should never be allowed to criticize any other nation since, you live in a country that allowed slavery and you, personally, benefit from that fact

182 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:22pm

re: #174 palmerskiss

oh bull - you live in a democracy - you own it.

that simple…that is the point of democracy - of, for and by the people..

you simply do no get to blame the government in a democracy - because the government is you.

So, my neighbors up in Harlem who are getting stop-and-frisked on a daily basis should actually be blaming themselves for that.

183 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:24pm

re: #167 GeneJockey

I do. What a Democracy does, it does with the consent of 50.5% of the governed….snip

184 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:32pm

re: #176 Varek Raith

Yep.
So should those who manipulated intel to get us in to Iraq.

Should Russia be punished?

indeed - so what should the punishment for 5 children? how about 157,000 people - many children?

and considering that - what should be the punishment in russia? what is the death toll relating to crimea? perspective.

185 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:55pm

re: #138 palmerskiss

hang it on our neck? no one - not one person was punished for iraq.

when justice is carried out by americans - you can take that yoke off the neck - until some form of justice is reached - the yoke is ours to wear.

where do you get the moral authority to set these rules?

186 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:02:56pm

re: #181 dog philosopher

let’s be clear here:

1) a president takes the action, without submitting the proposition to the voters, of invading a country, overthrowing its government, setting up a new democratic government - according to our specifications - which then operates democratically and negotiates our withdrawal.

our friends get to keep the profits from oil processing instead of the saddam government, and the new government of iraq is unable to be anything but our, ahem, ally

2) a president takes the action, without consulting the other nation, of taking away a part of that nation and appending it to his nation

listen - i am not george bush, and despite the fact that i am an american, i don’t need permission from anybody to criticize vladimir putin, and the president doesn’t either

unless you want to establish the principle that you - and i mean you - should never be allowed to criticize any other nation since, you live in a country that allowed slavery and you, personally, benefit from that fact

he was voted in twice…which is all i need to say about that.

187 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:03:01pm

re: #170 palmerskiss

How can THAT be compared to Operation: IRAQI FREEDOM? The bush administration screwed some things up, but it didn’t just randomly launch an attack. And that analogy ignores Saddam Hussein’s horrible behavior towards his own people as well as other countries.

188 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:03:11pm

Are you mad because I gave a response you didn’t expect?

189 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:03:25pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

And given disenfranchisement, voter repression, the unequal representation of senators, gerrymandering—actually a rather different number.

190 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:03:29pm

re: #185 dog philosopher

where do you get the moral authority to set these rules?

i did not make that rule - responsibility for actions is age old. as is justice.

191 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:03:53pm

re: #189 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And given disenfranchisement, voter repression, the unequal representation of senators, gerrymandering—actually a rather different number.

are you suggesting the united states is not a functioning democracy?

192 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:04:24pm

re: #186 palmerskiss

he was voted in twice…which is all i need to say about that.

Sort of.

193 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:04:38pm

re: #188 Internet Tough Guy

Are you mad because I gave a response you didn’t expect?

one - i am not mad. two - your response was unexpected because i at least expected debate that is honestly comported.

yours was not.

194 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:04:53pm

We are forever guilty.
How… Progressive.

195 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:04:57pm

re: #111 palmerskiss

no it is not - simply no - the death toll in iraq is well over 100,000.

that is death toll - over 100,000.

keep telling yourself that makes you better than annexing a state that was a partition in which the populace actually want to secede..

tell yourself that is a bigger crime than aggressive illegal unprovoked warfare.

On the subject of international law, which is worse/more dangerous —- the US unilaterally going into Iraq on a self-limiting mission to oust Saddam, or Russia annexing the Crimea while making ‘greater Russia’ noises about ethnic Russians in neighboring countries.

As a hint, only one of these two scenarios has any real chance of setting off world war III.

BBL.

196 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:05:36pm

re: #193 palmerskiss

Neither is yours, so were even.

197 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:05:41pm

re: #189 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And given disenfranchisement, voter repression, the unequal representation of senators, gerrymandering—actually a rather different number.

Using the laboratory bench approach to democracy, here. Not accounting for air resistance.

198 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:05:46pm

re: #139 dog philosopher

if a president who was elected in large part because of his objection to the iraq action can’t criticize another country because of iraq, then how far does this collective guilt go?

All the way down. It’s sort of like Original Sin since everyone pretty much belongs to a group that either carried out aggressions or immoral policies in the past - or looked the other way while others did so.

199 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:05:48pm

re: #191 palmerskiss

are you suggesting the united states is not a functioning democracy?

It functions differently for different people.

200 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:05:58pm

re: #191 palmerskiss

are you suggesting the united states is not a functioning democracy?

No. It is a democratic republic, and it takes actions without ensuring those actions are unanimous.

If you’re going to be obstinate to the point of infantility, let’s at least use the correct definitions.

201 Mattand  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:06:05pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

How can THAT be compared to Operation: IRAQI FREEDOM? The bush administration screwed some things up, but it didn’t just randomly launch an attack. And that analogy ignores Saddam Hussein’s horrible behavior towards his own people as well as other countries.

Given how many US service people and Iraqi civilians got needlessly slaughtered, I’d argue much of Iraq War 2: Electric Boogaloo was randomly launched.

202 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:06:18pm

i do not shirk my blame for iraq - even though i was against it - even though i was not old enough to vote - and even though i was not in the united states,

I am american - it was done in my name - carried out by a majority in a democracy.

i own it as much as the rest of us do….

i am guilty - i do not deny it - that is the price i pay for living in a democracy - never getting to remove myself from that democracy.

203 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:06:18pm

Everyone remembers how after Iraq we annexed the parts we wanted to keep?

Right, me neither.

204 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:06:32pm

re: #190 palmerskiss

i did not make that rule - responsibility for actions is age old. as is justice.

that’s a cop out

you made a declaration:

when justice is carried out by americans - you can take that yoke off the neck - until some form of justice is reached - the yoke is ours to wear.

defend it

you’re just as much an american as i am - you own iraq, too

what makes your moral authority, and the authority to set the rules, any better than the president’s?

205 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:06:58pm

re: #191 palmerskiss

are you suggesting the united states is not a functioning democracy?

“Functioning democracy” isn’t a binary system. We’re a functioning democracy—that has all of the issues i just talked about.

I’m really disappointed to learn you’re another group blame adherent. And you haven’t actually yet responded to explain what the takeaway from this is. Say you’ve got us all feeling very self-reproachful—what then? What is the actual practical outcome you want?

206 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:07:12pm

re: #201 Mattand

Given how many US service people and Iraqi civilians got needlessly slaughtered, I’d argue much of Iraq War 2: Electric Boogaloo was randomly launched.

Then please justify your position, bearing in mind the meaning of the word ‘random’.

207 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:07:21pm

re: #196 Internet Tough Guy

Neither is yours, so were even.

you are suggesting my debate was not honest?

please i would appreciate it if you did not address me again - i prefer to converse with people more in control of honesty and debate skills.

ciao

208 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:07:23pm
Everyone remembers how after Iraq/Grenada/Afghanistan/Panama invasions we annexed the parts we wanted to keep?

Right, me neither.

209 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:07:50pm

re: #184 palmerskiss

indeed - so what should the punishment for 5 children? how about 157,000 people - many children?

and considering that - what should be the punishment in russia? what is the death toll relating to crimea? perspective.

Ah, so what about Russia under Stalin?
I mean, no one was punished for that. That still hangs over Russia today, no?

210 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:07:56pm

re: #205 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

“Functioning democracy” isn’t a binary system. We’re a functioning democracy—that has all of the issues i just talked about.

I’m really disappointed to learn you’re another group blame adherent. And you haven’t actually yet responded to explain what the takeaway from this is. Say you’ve got us all feeling very self-reproachful—what then? What is the actual practical outcome you want?

a group blame adherent? because i refuse to dismiss communal blame in a democracy?

please - i am just honest.

211 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:08:33pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

This Conservative Myth About Birth Control Could Sway A Supreme Court Case

Ah, but reality is irrelevant. The question is whether the corporation has a religious belief that the IUD causes abortions. So, for example, if you work for a Jehovah’s Witness, they may require your insurance to exclude blood donations because they think God disapproves. Now imagine what kind of insurance you’ll get if your boss is a snake handler!

212 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:08:35pm

re: #209 Varek Raith

Ah, so what about Russia under Stalin?
I mean, no one was punished for that. That still hangs over Russia today, no?

stalin died in office…. russia was punished - look at their gdp.

i fail to see how that argument works - maybe you can refine it

213 jaunte  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:08:36pm

re: #209 Varek Raith

What’s a little Holodomor between neighbors?

214 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:09:14pm

re: #202 palmerskiss

i do not shirk my blame for iraq - even though i was against it - even though i was not old enough to vote - and even though i was not in the united states,

I am american - it was done in my name - carried out by a majority in a democracy.

i own it as much as the rest of us do….

i am guilty - i do not deny it - that is the price i pay for living in a democracy - never getting to remove myself from that democracy.

living in a society where bad actions were taken does not mean that the people living in that society give up their right to criticize other societies when they take bad actions

you seem to think that you have the right to set rules - the above is the rule that i’m setting

215 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:09:17pm

re: #207 palmerskiss

I didn’t realize you owned the place. I’ll address you as I please.

216 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:09:28pm

re: #212 palmerskiss

stalin died in office…. russia was punished - look at their gdp.

i fail to see how that argument works - maybe you can refine it

Of course you don’t.
You’d then have to admit how silly your ‘logic’ is on this perpetual guilt trip.

217 Mattand  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:09:40pm

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

Then please justify your position, bearing in mind the meaning of the word ‘random’.

Well, thinking the war would be over in a couple months, that we’d be greeted as heroes, having no exit strategy and costing billions of dollars less then it actually did are a few clues.

218 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:10:29pm

re: #214 dog philosopher

living in a society where bad actions were taken does not mean that the people living in that society give up their right to criticize other societies when they take bad actions

you seem to think that you have the right to set rules - the above is the rule that i’m setting

i agree with that - i criticize along with you - i was asking for perspective on chavez, in relation to the iraq war.

219 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:10:31pm

re: #212 palmerskiss

stalin died in office…. russia was punished - look at their gdp.

i fail to see how that argument works - maybe you can refine it

LOL. Are you serious?

Then the US was punished via the huge ballooning war-driven deficit.

Fuck your “omg I’m just being honest” earnestness. You’ve picked your opinions, and now you’re cherry-picking your facts in order to justify them.

220 dog philosopher  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:10:32pm

re: #198 Feline Fearless Leader

All the way down. It’s sort of like Original Sin since everyone pretty much belongs to a group that either carried out aggressions or immoral policies in the past - or looked the other way while others did so.

it’s those turtles again

i knew it!

221 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:10:37pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

Yeah, but the thing is, IN THEORY, we all agree to abide by what the majority decides, within the limits of the Constitution we imposed on ourselves. The President - EVERY President - is President of us all, not just the ones who voted for him. Bush was my President even though I voted for Gore and for Kerry. Obama is every Teabagger’s President, disown him though they may.

We as a nation carry the responsibility for what our nation does. That doesn’t mean we as individuals don’t get to point to injustice. Indeed, that’s a big part of BEING a democracy.

222 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:11:39pm

re: #194 Varek Raith

We are forever guilty.
How… Progressive.

Excuse me, I have to go stab myself in the leg with a spork for a few hours to atone for the sins of my forefathers.

223 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:11:42pm

re: #216 Varek Raith

Of course you don’t.
You’d then have to admit how silly your ‘logic’ is on this perpetual guilt trip.

i never claimed a perpetual guilt trip - however - until some sort of justice is carried out for hundreds of thousands of deaths over an error or a lie - however you want to look at it - is fair.

it is fair.. unless you want to make the point justice was carried out in relation to iraq - if so we can move on.

224 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:12:29pm

re: #48 HappyWarrior

I think so sigh.

Its the money of religious fundamentalists and big energy which makes the GOP unable to admit scientific errors.

225 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:12:30pm

re: #219 Testy Toad T

LOL. Are you serious?

Then the US was punished via the huge ballooning war-driven deficit.

Fuck your “omg I’m just being honest” earnestness. You’ve picked your opinions, and now you’re cherry-picking your facts in order to justify them.

i did not cherry pick a fact - i told you russia paid for stalin - and they still pay for it today.

that is not cherry picking - that is right on the money - dont call me out - show me how im wrong.

226 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:12:58pm

re: #225 palmerskiss

i did not cherry pick a fact - i told you russia paid for stalin - and they still pay for it today.

that is not cherry picking - that is right on the money - dont call me out - show me how im wrong.

You ignored how we paid for the Iraq blunder too.

227 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:13:07pm

re: #217 Mattand

Well, thinking the war would be over in a couple months, that we’d be greeted as heroes, having no exit strategy and costing billions of dollars less then it actually did are a few clues.

That would make it “erroneously launched”, not “randomly launched”.

228 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:13:20pm

re: #226 Varek Raith

You ignored how we paid for the Iraq blunder too.

do tell..

229 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:13:33pm

Russia has a shitty economy forty years after Stalin died, so the intentional starvation of millions of Ukranians is now sufficiently atoned-for.

I just can’t even.

230 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:13:35pm

re: #210 palmerskiss

a group blame adherent? because i refuse to dismiss communal blame in a democracy?

please - i am just honest.

No, honest would be admitting that there are a lot of people who did a fuckton to make the Iraq war happen.

You want things like the Iraq war to stop happening? The answer isn’t all of us slapping ourselves in the faces and crying salt tears about the sins of the US. The answer lies in that there are actual people who committed a lot of time, propaganda, effort, money, intelligence, and general vim and vigor into persuading the US to go to war in Iraq. Those people, some of whom were elected, and some of whom were not, bear the vast majority of the blame, if we’re playing some stupid weight-out-the-blame-game, the point of which you’ve never made clear.

To stop the Iraq War from happening again, to stop something like that from happening, requires looking at how it actually happened. And how it actually happened was not a distributed decision on the part of the US populace, it was a long, long propaganda campaign to make that happen. That propaganda was fought against at the time but we failed to beat it back, it worked—and that’s what needs to be fought, is the propaganda machine and the problems in our democracy, the disenfranchisement and the gerrymandering and the votes for sale.

The solution is not going to be found in a collective morass of guilt, and, probably more important, you are never, ever going to achieve the goal of guilt-tripping the US population, no matter how much they abstractly ‘should’ feel guilty.

231 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:14:04pm

re: #226 Varek Raith

You ignored how we paid for the Iraq blunder too.

Economy blew up. Worst since the Great Depression.
Credibility around the world destroyed.

232 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:14:14pm

re: #229 Testy Toad T

Russia has a shitty economy forty years after Stalin died, so the intentional starvation of millions of Ukranians is now sufficiently atoned-for.

I just can’t even.

oh come on - if you engage in that kind of hedging in a debate - i will assume you cannot debate the actual point

233 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:14:56pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

Economy blew up. Worst since the Great Depression.
Credibility around the world destroyed.

Yeah, but that’s because Obama wears a helmet biking and doesn’t ride a horse while going shirtless.

234 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:01pm

re: #228 palmerskiss

do tell..

You’re rather obvious here.
You apply this to the US and no one else.
That’s ok. It’s free country.
Just don’t pretend you aren’t doing it.

235 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:06pm

re: #221 GeneJockey

Yeah, but the thing is, IN THEORY, we all agree to abide by what the majority decides, within the limits of the Constitution we imposed on ourselves. The President - EVERY President - is President of us all, not just the ones who voted for him. Bush was my President even though I voted for Gore and for Kerry. Obama is every Teabagger’s President, disown him though they may.

We as a nation carry the responsibility for what our nation does. That doesn’t mean we as individuals don’t get to point to injustice. Indeed, that’s a big part of BEING a democracy.

We agree to abide to a point, the point at which the outrage is so great that civil disobedience is the more conscionable choice. Iraq didn’t reach that point for many people.

236 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:07pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

Economy blew up. Worst since the Great Depression.
Credibility around the world destroyed.

the economy housing crises and banking crises were in relation to iraq?

i’d like to see some correlating numbers thank you.

or are you just making a “its karma” claim ?

237 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:20pm

re: #223 palmerskiss

i never claimed a perpetual guilt trip - however - until some sort of justice is carried out for hundreds of thousands of deaths over an error or a lie - however you want to look at it - is fair.

it is fair.. unless you want to make the point justice was carried out in relation to iraq - if so we can move on.

So never, then. If what you’re looking for is war crime trials of Bush and the others who got the US into the Iraq war, that is not ever going to happen.

So, what is the actual practical outcome, as you seem to just have incredibly difficult iterating. Because the US will not prosecute Bush for war crimes, therefore what?

238 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:29pm

I suppose Merkel also should not criticize Russia.

Big time.

239 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:15:37pm

re: #234 Varek Raith

You’re rather obvious here.
You apply this to the US and no one else.
That’s ok. It’s free country.
Just don’t pretend you aren’t doing it.

really? i apply it to the u,s, and no one else?

seriously - you want to stand by that statement?

240 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:16:15pm

re: #235 Decatur Deb

We agree to abide to a point, the point at which the outrage is so great that civil disobedience is the more conscionable choice. Iraq didn’t reach that point for many people.

Right.

241 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:16:26pm

re: #222 Kragar

Excuse me, I have to go stab myself in the leg with a spork for a few hours to atone for the sins of my forefathers.

Dr. McCoy: [outraged] Well, I’M not the Kirk. Tell ME what your function is.
Nomad: This is one of your units, creator?
Capt. Kirk: Yes, he is.
Nomad: It functions irrationally.
Capt. Kirk: Sometimes, but tell him your function, nevertheless.
Nomad: My function is to probe for biological infestations, to destroy that which is not perfect.

242 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:16:42pm

re: #237 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So never, then. If what you’re looking for is war crime trials of Bush and the others who got the US into the Iraq war, that is not ever going to happen.

So, what is the actual practical outcome, as you seem to just have incredibly difficult iterating. Because the US will not prosecute Bush for war crimes, therefore what?

therefore we suffer the finger pointed in our direction - just claiming “well we wont ever do anything about it - and that should be enough for us to forget it ever happened” is not enough for me - and it should not be enough for you.

243 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:17:01pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

That would make it “erroneously launched”, not “randomly launched”.

It was either error or crime or a milkshake of the two. We won’t know in my lifetime.

244 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:17:23pm

re: #238 wrenchwench

I suppose Merkel also should not criticize Russia.

Big time.

I think to a great extent “it grows back” when the folks who did the bad thing are defeated and dead. When a lot of them are still in office, not so much.
//

245 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:17:23pm

re: #237 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So, what is the actual practical outcome, as you seem to just have incredibly difficult iterating. Because the US will not prosecute Bush for war crimes, therefore what?

Yes yes yes. I would keep updinging for this point, even if your posts were otherwise useless drivel.

If your worldview doesn’t provide any sort of utility or plausible direction of action or insight, you should think about revising it. Otherwise you just sit in a quivering lump, weeping mournfully to yourself about nothing in particular.

Which, again, [[points in the direction of FireDogLake]]

246 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:17:40pm

some of you - in what i can only gather is an attempt to not debate this issue - are claiming i am not consistent nor fair to the u.s.

to which i ask you - have you read what i post?

i find that depressing.

247 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:18:02pm

re: #242 palmerskiss

therefore we suffer the finger pointed in our direction - just claiming “well we wont ever do anything about it - and that should be enough for us to forget it ever happened” is not enough for me - and it should not be enough for you.

I’m sorry, I have no clue what that meant. Or rather, let me just say again: Whatever that word salad above meant, therefore what? What does suffering the finger pointed in our direction mean? What does it meant that this is not enough—what practical result are you looking for? What do you want me to do, what do you want to have happen?

248 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:18:21pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

That would make it “erroneously launched”, not “randomly launched”.

Unless they only started it after Rumsfeld rolled that ‘18’ on 3d6 on the Warmonger Table that one night while they were drinking and playing board games after a Cabinet meeting.
//

249 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:19:04pm

re: #246 palmerskiss

some of you - in what i can only gather is an attempt to not debate this issue - are claiming i am not consistent nor fair to the u.s.

to which i ask you - have you read what i post?

i find that depressing.

Your posting has been mostly Pages, which I have read only a fraction of. It’s a different conversation on the front page.

250 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:19:04pm

re: #248 Feline Fearless Leader

That’s as good an explanation for Iraq as any other, to be honest.

251 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:19:05pm

re: #236 palmerskiss

the economy housing crises and banking crises were in relation to iraq?

i’d like to see some correlating numbers thank you.

or are you just making a “its karma” claim ?

Heh, Russia’s GDP and economic fuck ups were not the result of Stalin dying.
It was the result of spending way too much on their military. So…
How was Russia punished because of the crimes of Stalin? Don’t you see what you are doing here?

252 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:19:09pm

re: #246 palmerskiss

some of you - in what i can only gather is an attempt to not debate this issue - are claiming i am not consistent nor fair to the u.s.

Your bullshit claim of evaluating the US and RUssia as actors on the world stage between 2000 and 2009—a claim that I’m beginning you don’t actually understand the complexity of—is a pretty good source of this.

253 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:20:17pm

re: #246 palmerskiss

some of you - in what i can only gather is an attempt to not debate this issue - are claiming i am not consistent nor fair to the u.s.

to which i ask you - have you read what i post?

i find that depressing.

You are not fair to any nation, because you demand something of which they are not capable—disinterested morality.

254 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:20:52pm

re: #247 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m sorry, I have no clue what that meant. Or rather, let me just say again: Whatever that word salad above meant, therefore what? What does suffering the finger pointed in our direction mean? What does it meant that this is not enough—what practical result are you looking for? What do you want me to do, what do you want to have happen?

come on obdi - that is a cop out.

the argument here is whether or not the u.s. should still be blamed for iraq, and whether that complicates their position on other international issues.

if the u.s cannot do legal due diligence over iraq - then yes - the finger pointing is fair

if your argument is going to be “you’re speaking nonsense” then why are you even bothering to argue with me?

i expect a better standard of argument than that.

i made my points - you do not have to agree - but you do have to argue with me on fair terms.

which has not happened here.

255 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:21:22pm

re: #252 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Your bullshit claim of evaluating the US and RUssia as actors on the world stage between 2000 and 2009—a claim that I’m beginning you don’t actually understand the complexity of—is a pretty good source of this.

you mean ‘equating’

and yes - i can equate just fine -

256 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:23:01pm

re: #202 palmerskiss

i do not shirk my blame for iraq - even though i was against it - even though i was not old enough to vote - and even though i was not in the united states,

I am american - it was done in my name - carried out by a majority in a democracy.

i own it as much as the rest of us do….

i am guilty - i do not deny it - that is the price i pay for living in a democracy - never getting to remove myself from that democracy.

I don’t “own” it. I was against the invasion of Iraq—totally. I was repelled and disgusted by some of the things representatives of this country did, by the corruption, both there and here surrounding that war, and at numerous votes in Congress that permitted those things to happen.

But I’m not going to spend the rest of my life guilt-tripping myself over spilled milk, so to speak, esp for something a president I disagreed with on a daily basis did. I voted for Barack Obama because he promised to get troops out of there. What Iraq is doing to its own people on a daily basis by those jockeying for power is not my fault, either, but I still condemn it.

I’ll continue to speak out against injustices and for the rights of everyone, but I’m not going to continually be badgered for something I never supported.

257 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:24:03pm

re: #256 Justanotherhuman

I don’t “own” it. I was against the invasion of Iraq—totally. I was repelled and disgusted by some of the things representatives of this country did, by the corruption, both there and here surrounding that war, and at numerous votes in Congress that permitted those things to happen.

But I’m not going to spend the rest of my life guilt-tripping myself over spilled milk, so to speak, esp for something a president I disagreed with on a daily basis did. I voted for Barack Obama because he promised to get troops out of there. What Iraq is doing to its own people on a daily basis by those jockeying for power is not my fault, either, but I still condemn it.

I’ll continue to speak out against injustices and for the rights of everyone, but I’m not going to continually be badgered for something I never supported.

then you should be demanding justice yes? if you call for justice abroad - you should be consistent in calling for justice at home?

yes?

258 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:24:18pm

re: #254 palmerskiss

You are applying group blame to Americans.

That’s rather immoral.

259 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:24:32pm

re: #254 palmerskiss

the argument here is whether or not the u.s. should still be blamed for iraq, and whether that complicates their position on other international issues.

No, there is no argument here. Everyone here agrees that the answer to that question is “yes”.

The argument is whether or not a country has some sort of “moral authority”, or however you wish to phrase it, even after they do something stupid and bad and harmful, and the degree to which that authority is compromised by such actions, and how that sort of authority might be regained.

Please do correct me if I’m wrong, but your position seems to be that a state’s moral authority is completely and totally and absolutely lost by any harmful action taken by that state, and cannot be recovered to any degree or in any fashion other than… war crimes trials, I guess?

Few of the rest of us hold that position. We may agree with the general direction of your thinking, but hold a rather more relativistic view.

260 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:24:58pm

re: #87 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

They are the de-facto minor leagues for the NFL and NBA. They should drop the pretense and simply allow them to be “student athletes” who are allowed to study part-time while training for four seasons and then given the option to finish their degrees later.

A person I know whose son is on a baseball scholarship said they wouldn’t let him major in engineering because it would take too much time away from baseball, so he was required to major in communications.

261 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:25:24pm

re: #258 Varek Raith

You are applying group blame to Americans.

That’s rather immoral.

immoral? for blaming the united states for going to war in iraq?

the united states did go to war in iraq.

want to read me the preamble to the constitution? or should i post it here,

explain the immorality - explain how i am ethically challenged here..

262 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:26:00pm

re: #194 Varek Raith

We are forever guilty.
How… Progressive.

It’s in the BIBLE!!11!!

263 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:26:05pm

re: #261 palmerskiss

immoral? for blaming the united states for going to war in iraq?

the united states did go to war in iraq.

want to read me the preamble to the constitution? or should i post it here,

explain the immorality - explain how i am ethically challenged here..

Same way the crazy TP blames all Muslims for terrorism.
You are blaming all Americans for Iraq.

264 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:26:41pm

re: #259 Testy Toad T

No, there is no argument here. Everyone here agrees that the answer to that question is “yes”.

The argument is whether or not a country has some sort of “moral authority”, or however you wish to phrase it, even after they do something stupid and bad and harmful, and the degree to which that authority is compromised by such actions, and how that sort of authority might be regained.

Please do correct me if I’m wrong, but your position seems to be that a state’s moral authority is completely and totally and absolutely lost by any harmful action taken by that state, and cannot be recovered to any degree or in any fashion other than… war crimes trials, I guess?

Few of the rest of us hold that position. We may agree with the general direction of your thinking, but hold a rather more relativistic view.

i have said it clearly several times - to remain consistent clamoring for justice abroad you must call for justice at home… if we seek that justice - no conflict of interest - if we do not - then we have a serious conflict of interest.

265 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:26:53pm

You are simplifying things to fit a black and white mold.

266 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:26:57pm

re: #263 Varek Raith

Same way the crazy TP blames all Muslims for terrorism.
You are blaming all Americans for Iraq.

goodbye.

267 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:27:11pm

re: #100 Justanotherhuman

Heh.

[Embedded content]

OMG OMG OMG

I have to get that image (without the NO! symbol over it)

268 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:27:40pm

Considering he’s as morally decrepit as the rest of us Iraq War supporters, palmerskiss certainly acts like (s)he’s on the high road.

269 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:27:43pm

re: #266 palmerskiss

goodbye.

I see.
But you are blaming all Americans for Iraq, yes?

270 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:28:11pm

re: #266 palmerskiss

lol You going to tell VR to shutup too?

271 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:28:24pm

re: #264 palmerskiss

i have said it clearly several times - to remain consistent clamoring for justice abroad you must call for justice at home… if we seek that justice - no conflict of interest - if we do not - then we have a serious conflict of interest.

You use so many words, and yet express so few actionable ideas.

It’s like a grab-bag of emoprog talking points.

272 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:28:49pm

re: #254 palmerskiss

come on obdi - that is a cop out.

Nope. I don’t do copouts. I asked you to give me something concrete, and you didn’t, you just waved your hands around in the feels some more.

the argument here is whether or not the u.s. should still be blamed for iraq, and whether that complicates their position on other international issues.

if the u.s cannot do legal due diligence over iraq - then yes - the finger pointing is fair

Okay. So the finger pointing is fair. So what? What then? What are you talking about?

if your argument is going to be “you’re speaking nonsense” then why are you even bothering to argue with me?

Because I think you can do better.

i expect a better standard of argument than that.

i made my points - you do not have to agree - but you do have to argue with me on fair terms.

You have not made your points. You have dodged a fuckload of mine. Here, have a list:

1. Actually analyzing whether the US or Russia was a ‘better actor’ on the world stage between 2000 and 2009 is an incomprehensibly complex task. Defining ‘better’ on its own would take an immense amount of time, and then operationalizing the variables that you wanted to study would take more. Finding out the information would take more. This would be a thesis for a very smart, very hard-working grad student, and even then they would present it as “Given this conception of ‘better’, and these operational variables X is the better actor”. You just asserted this breezily, and have not even given a moment’s notice to the enormous problem in doing so.

2. Your idea of steady pool of blame spread out across the US, all of us in it up to the same extent, is both useless—in that there are some people in the US who did a lot more than others to fight against the Iraq war, and there are those who did a ton of work to make it happen. Treating those two groups the same is ridiculous, unless you think people should have actually fomented a Civil War over the issue—and it is also ethically simplistic in the extreme, and blames the victims of crimes for those crimes.

3. Even if we grant you all your premises, all your arguments, you have yet to actually say ‘So what?” You have yet to say what you actually, practically, want to have happen. Not in the realm of emotion, but in action: What do you want us to do, based on this feeling of guilt? What is it you want it to inspire us to?

273 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:28:52pm

re: #270 Internet Tough Guy

lol You going to tell VR to shutup too?

if you carry on like you have been - i have no compunction to debate you…

if you want a real debate - cut out all the crap

274 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:29:45pm

re: #273 palmerskiss

if you carry on like you have been - i have no compunction to debate you…

if you want a real debate - cut out all the crap

Then anwser me one, simple question.
Do you blame all Americans for Iraq?
Yes
or
No.

Simple.

275 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:30:16pm

re: #269 Varek Raith

I see.
But you are blaming all Americans for Iraq, yes?

I think it’s the fault of the citizens of Iraq to allow Saddam to have power and screw their country up so badly that we had to intervene.

(Though why we skipped over cleaning out the arguably much worse North Korea at the same time still eludes me.)
////

276 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:30:18pm

re: #254 palmerskiss

come on obdi - that is a cop out.

the argument here is whether or not the u.s. should still be blamed for iraq, and whether that complicates their position on other international issues.

if the u.s cannot do legal due diligence over iraq - then yes - the finger pointing is fair

if your argument is going to be “you’re speaking nonsense” then why are you even bothering to argue with me?

i expect a better standard of argument than that.

i made my points - you do not have to agree - but you do have to argue with me on fair terms.

which has not happened here.

If your argument ended there, I think we’d probably not be arguing.

Yes, it complicates our position precisely because Putin can go all ‘Tu Quoque’ on us, and even though it’s a logical fallacy, it’s generally effective in practice. It weakens our ability to take the moral high ground effectively.

So, what next? Do we not point out that the annexation of Crimea was wrong? Sorry, can’t go there with you.

Do we bring Bush et al. up on war crimes? Can’t go there with you either. As I stated above, I’m not convinced the intel WAS manipulated, in the sense of the Administration knowing there were no WMDs and putting together a case based on information they knew to be false. I think they believed it was true, and put together a case using the data they had that best supported it, while not really trusting any that disagreed.

277 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:30:25pm

re: #248 Feline Fearless Leader

Unless they only started it after Rumsfeld rolled that ‘18’ on 3d6 on the Warmonger Table that one night while they were drinking and playing board games after a Cabinet meeting.
//

He only did that after Saddam Hussein rolled a ‘8’ followed by a ‘4’ on that same board for his Iran and Kuwait invasions. ;)

278 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:30:31pm

Hey Obdi, check your mail…

279 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:31:42pm
280 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:31:45pm

I get rather annoyingly aggressive when people can’t answer simple questions with a direct answer.
I don’t tolerate vague word salad responses.

281 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:32:04pm

re: #257 palmerskiss

then you should be demanding justice yes? if you call for justice abroad - you should be consistent in calling for justice at home?

yes?

I don’t understand your question. I always demand justice, but one thing I’ve learned is that change is slow for the most part. We live in a constitutional republic, a democracy of a kind, and unless we want a dictator, nothing gets done very fast, and not always to our own personal satisfaction. I was involved in civil rights in my earlier years for a long time. I’m an old lady now and I don’t think you have any right to question me about my motives or intentions because you don’t know much about me or my history.

But I do know that blaming others for one’s own feelings of guilt is no way to go through life. If you don’t learn patience, you will be in a constant state of frustration as well.

282 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:32:23pm

re: #279 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Eua my!

283 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:32:32pm

re: #272 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Because I think you can do better.

You have not made your points. You have dodged a fuckload of mine. Here, have a list:

1. Actually analyzing whether the US or Russia was a ‘better actor’ on the world stage between 2000 and 2009 is an incomprehensibly complex task. Defining ‘better’ on its own would take an immense amount of time, and then operationalizing the variables that you wanted to study would take more. Finding out the information would take more. This would be a thesis for a very smart, very hard-working grad student, and even then they would present it as “Given this conception of ‘better’, and these operational variables X is the better actor”. You just asserted this breezily, and have not even given a moment’s notice to the enormous problem in doing so.

i do not care about who was better - i care about what actions are taken in removing the hypocrisy - if you do not continually seek justice for iraq - then i fail to see a moral superiority to seek it for other international malfeasance..

2. Your idea of steady pool of blame spread out across the US, all of us in it up to the same extent, is both useless—in that there are some people in the US who did a lot more than others to fight against the Iraq war, and there are those who did a ton of work to make it happen. Treating those two groups the same is ridiculous, unless you think people should have actually fomented a Civil War over the issue—and it is also ethically simplistic in the extreme, and blames the victims of crimes for those crimes.

i agree…however - if you live in a democracy - then blame is shared.

3. Even if we grant you all your premises, all your arguments, you have yet to actually say ‘So what?” You have yet to say what you actually, practically, want to have happen. Not in the realm of emotion, but in action: What do you want us to do, based on this feeling of guilt? What is it you want it to inspire us to?

i’d like to see more people call for justice on iraq - so when do endeavor to tell others how to behave, we do so on strong, consistent ground.

again - this is not controversial - it only becomes controversial when you do not want to address it.

284 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:32:34pm

re: #254 palmerskiss

Listen up, new guy, Obdicut’s not kidding when he says he doesn’t do cop outs and both he and I have been here for years so i know. You lame attack on him is risible.

285 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:33:14pm

re: #274 Varek Raith

Then anwser me one, simple question.
Do you blame all Americans for Iraq?
Yes
or
No.

Simple.

i do not think you understand what i meant when i said we are done.

it means we are done.

286 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:33:30pm

re: #284 Dark_Falcon

Listen up, new guy, Obdicut’s not kidding when he says he doesn’t do cop outs and both he and I have been here for years so i know. You lame attack on him is risible.

new guy?

please

goodbye…

287 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:34:01pm

re: #285 palmerskiss

i do not think you understand what i meant when i said we are done.

it means we are done.

I do believe this is what one would call a ‘cop out’.

288 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:34:04pm

Come on Obdi, You can do better.

289 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:34:28pm

re: #287 Varek Raith

I do believe this is what one would call a ‘cop out’.

yep - and you know why.

290 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:34:52pm

re: #283 palmerskiss

i do not care about who was better - i care about what actions are taken in removing the hypocrisy - if you do not continually seek justice for iraq - then i fail to see a moral superiority to seek it for other international malfeasance..

If you do not care who is better then don’t make claims about who is better. That’s your own fuckup, don’t blame others for it.

What does ‘continually seeking justice for Iraq’ actually look like? Again, what is the practical, actual outcome you want? What is it you want me to do?

I am here, a human being, reachable through words. If you want me to do something, just fucking say it, make your case for it, instead of somehow trying to inspire an emotion that will somehow lead to it. Tell me what i should actually do to seek justice for Iraq.

i agree…however - if you live in a democracy - then blame is shared.

Assertion is not argument.

i’d like to see more people call for justice on iraq - so when do endeavor to tell others how to behave, we do so on strong, consistent ground.

If you want me to do something, just fucking say it, make your case for it, instead of somehow trying to inspire an emotion that will somehow lead to it. Tell me what i should actually do to seek justice for Iraq.

291 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:35:18pm

re: #289 palmerskiss

yep - and you know why.

I do.
You can’t answer the question.
Why?
Why is it so hard for you to do so?
I answered your questions just fine.

292 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:35:21pm

re: #288 Internet Tough Guy

Come on Obdi, You can do better.

If you have any problems with any of my arguments, feel free to point them out, and I’ll be happy to deal with them.

293 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:35:36pm

re: #283 palmerskiss

“if you do not continually seek justice for iraq [sic]”? Even the people on the far left are too busy politically to do that. Iraq is just one of many places of recent US involvement and to focus on the wrongs do there to the exclusion of all else is neither prudent nor decent.

294 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:35:43pm

re: #263 Varek Raith

Same way the crazy TP blames all Muslims for terrorism.
You are blaming all Americans for Iraq.

Now that’s swinging too far the other way. Did a majority of Muslims elect and reelect Al Qaeda?

Terrorism is something carried out by a tiny minority with neither the consent nor support of more than a slightly larger minority of Muslims, whereas the Iraq invasion was carried out by a President duly elected, with the support of a majority of the representatives elected by a majority of their citizens.

We bear responsibility for what our government does, because that’s how we set it up, those are the rules we agreed to abide by.

I mean if we don’t bear collective responsibility for the actions of a government formed by our just consent, how the hell is it all supposed to work?

295 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:36:03pm

re: #292 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It was a joke…..forgot the snark tag

296 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:37:13pm

re: #295 Internet Tough Guy

It was a joke…..forgot the snark tag

Heh. Seemed to come out of left-field, but I’m also writing a paper on Marcuse right now so for a second I wondered if I’d dropped a giant bunch of text about surplus repression in the middle.

297 Jack Burton  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:37:31pm

re: #285 palmerskiss

i do not think you understand what i meant when i said we are done.

it means we are done.

You don’t have the magical power or authority to tell someone here to stop talking to you in a forum like this while you continue to yammer on about the same shit. Your completely asinine comments and assertions have dug yourself into a hole. If you don’t like it, ignore it or log off and go away.

298 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:38:21pm

re: #283 palmerskiss

i do not care about who was better - i care about what actions are taken in removing the hypocrisy - if you do not continually seek justice for iraq - then i fail to see a moral superiority to seek it for other international malfeasance..

i agree…however - if you live in a democracy - then blame is shared.

i’d like to see more people call for justice on iraq - so when do endeavor to tell others how to behave, we do so on strong, consistent ground.

again - this is not controversial - it only becomes controversial when you do not want to address it.

A useful viewpoint must be robust; it must tolerate damage, or failings, and still have residual use.

Suppose the population of the United States does not “call for justice”, by your standards, whatever that means (you still haven’t really expressed anything concrete). And I’m sorry to say, they probably won’t. People rarely wish to look back on their failings. The entire population of the United States likely won’t agitate very hard or very quickly for more equal treatment of minorities, either.

France will probably not look back at their pretty lousy treatment of their immigrant populations. Russia won’t apologize for Crimea. Australia won’t burn itself to the ground in shame for how they treated the aboriginal populations. The Japanese will still shy away from discussing Nanking.

What then? Do we shutter the UN? Do we let Assad gas Syrians without fear or repercussions? Do we stress overmuch about piracy around the Horn of Africa?

When your worldview isn’t adhered to totally and perfectly, how does it remain useful?

299 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:38:22pm

re: #290 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

If you do not care who is better then don’t make claims about who is better. That’s your own fuckup, don’t blame others for it.

really? i cannot make a moral judgement about how many bodies i think are tolerable? that is what you are claiming yes?

What does ‘continually seeking justice for Iraq’ actually look like? Again, what is the practical, actual outcome you want? What is it you want me to do?

what does it look like? would you like me to introduce you to the justice system? or how about calling for it - out loud - like i am.

is calling for justice - immoral? someone else already claimed it was - however they refused to actually state the ethical basis for it.

yes i want you to do something - i want you to continue to demand that justice be done in your and my and our names.

how hard is that? how controversial is it stating that we gave up on the idea of holding ourselves accountable meanwhile we still want to be seen as some sort of moral role model.

my claims are not controversial - if you want to make a moral case - be consistent about our own moral problems.

300 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:38:41pm

re: #202 palmerskiss

i do not shirk my blame for iraq - even though i was against it - even though i was not old enough to vote - and even though i was not in the united states,

I am american - it was done in my name - carried out by a majority in a democracy.

i own it as much as the rest of us do….

i am guilty - i do not deny it - that is the price i pay for living in a democracy - never getting to remove myself from that democracy.

Think I found your problem. No one can steal blame, guilt, responsibility for things that are totally outside their control. You will be responsible for the next one, or not, depending on your actions.

301 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:38:52pm

re: #294 GeneJockey

It is definitely true that we bear much more responsibility, not just because of the democratic nature of our government but for the other privileges we have, than people of other nations do for the actions of their leaders.

It’s still pants-on-head dumb to say we’re all equally to blame, and—more aggravating—useless.

302 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:39:22pm

Why would shared blame only apply in a democracy? Shouldn’t those living under an oligarchy, monarchy, etc. etc. also be complicit since they willingly live in an unrepresentative system? Or, if “resisting” obviously have not resisted in an effective manner?*

* - This is operating under the unsupported assertion that a representative system is “better” than the existing system. Though believing in individual inalienable rights would tend to mean that a representative system is better for that individuals’ interests.

303 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:39:39pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

“if you do not continually seek justice for iraq [sic]”? Even the people on the far left are too busy politically to do that. Iraq is just one of many places of recent US involvement and to focus on the wrongs do there to the exclusion of all else is neither prudent nor decent.

how do i do so to the exclusion of all others? i spend hours every day fighting injustice - actually out there fighting it - this is not something i am inconsistent on - i am extremely consistent - to a fault.

304 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:40:36pm

re: #299 palmerskiss

what does it look like? would you like me to introduce you to the justice system? or how about calling for it - out loud - like i am.

Oh you are, are you? All we have to do to atone for Iraq is to express how very very wrong and bad it was anonymously on the internet?

Shit, I thought you were going to ask me to do something difficult!

What a relief.

305 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:40:36pm

re: #294 GeneJockey

Now that’s swinging too far the other way. Did a majority of Muslims elect and reelect Al Qaeda?

Terrorism is something carried out by a tiny minority with neither the consent nor support of more than a slightly larger minority of Muslims, whereas the Iraq invasion was carried out by a President duly elected, with the support of a majority of the representatives elected by a majority of their citizens.

We bear responsibility for what our government does, because that’s how we set it up, those are the rules we agreed to abide by.

I mean if we don’t bear collective responsibility for the actions of a government formed by our just consent, how the hell is it all supposed to work?

Perhaps.
However, group blame does nothing to fix any problems we want fixed. It just antagonizes people. It’s a cop out.

306 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:41:17pm

re: #300 Decatur Deb

Think I found your problem. No one can steal blame, guilt, responsibility for things that are totally outside their control. You will be responsible for the next one, or not, depending on your actions.

i am simply understanding my place in a democracy - i never remove myself from the equation of blame.

i understand my place in the world - i try and make it a better position to stand from. i am thankful to live in a democracy - and i am mindful of taking it for granted.

307 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:42:01pm

re: #304 Testy Toad T

Oh you are, are you? All we have to do to atone for Iraq is to express how very very wrong and bad it was anonymously on the internet?

Shit, I thought you were going to ask me to do something difficult!

What a relief.

again - you try and distort what i say into simplified ad homs you can easily and comfortably attack -

at least obdi made an attempt.

308 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:42:08pm

re: #306 palmerskiss

Ah, so then you do blame all of us for Iraq.
Was that so hard to admit?

309 ramex  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:42:12pm

re: #276 GeneJockey

“As I stated above, I’m not convinced the intel WAS manipulated, in the sense of the Administration knowing there were no WMDs…”

We wouldn’t be able to prove a negative anyway.

310 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:42:35pm

re: #299 palmerskiss

really? i cannot make a moral judgement about how many bodies i think are tolerable? that is what you are claiming yes?

No, I’m not sure how you can be confused about this, but what I’m saying you cannot make a judgment on is whether Russia or the US was a ‘better’ actor on the world stage in 2000-2009. If what your actual claim was “The US killed more people during 2000-2009”, then you should have said that, and not said ‘better actor’, which is an obviously much more complex concept.

what does it look like? would you like me to introduce you to the justice system? or how about calling for it - out loud - like i am.

Holy shit, why won’t you actually say what you want me to do? What is the point of this sort of activism? Say I start shouting right along there with you—four fingers back at us, the US should have justice for Iraq—what is it you want to happen next? Why won’t you actually say it?

yes i want you to do something - i want you to continue to demand that justice be done in your and my and our names.

Demand of who, and how? What form will this ‘justice’ take? Why can’t you actually say anything concrete? Are you allergic to concrete?

how controversial is it stating that we gave up on the idea of holding ourselves accountable meanwhile we still want to be seen as some sort of moral role model.

I don’t want us to be seen as a moral role model. No country should be seen as a moral role model. Countries aren’t moral.

311 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:42:51pm

re: #302 Feline Fearless Leader

Why would shared blame only apply in a democracy? Shouldn’t those living under an oligarchy, monarchy, etc. etc. also be complicit since they willingly live in an unrepresentative system? Or, if “resisting” obviously have not resisted in an effective manner?*

* - This is operating under the unsupported assertion that a representative system is “better” than the existing system. Though believing in individual inalienable rights would tend to mean that a representative system is better for that individuals’ interests.

no - democracy is of, for and by the people.

or are you claiming the basis for american liberty is false.

312 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:43:32pm

re: #303 palmerskiss

Well, here people have to set an issue to the side for weeks or months on end while they deal with other issues of importance to the members of their own coalition and from there to the alliance of coalitions that the two political parties represent.

313 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:43:38pm

re: #311 palmerskiss

no - democracy is of, for and by the people.

or are you claiming the basis for american liberty is false.

Newsflash: People in the US don’t actually share equal access to political power.

Shocking I know.

314 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:43:53pm

Time for a new thread. This is getting tedious…

315 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:44:01pm

re: #307 palmerskiss

again - you try and distort what i say into simplified ad homs you can easily and comfortably attack -

at least obdi made an attempt.

You seem only to make sincere replies to the snarky posts, ignoring the difficult realities expressed in the longer ones. Because the real world is icky and gray-shaded and hard to distill into nice clean tidy boxes.

So here we are.

316 Bulworth  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:44:42pm

OT, but apparently, the Christian charity World Vision has already caved into angry evangelicals who got the sadz when World Vision announced—just a day or two ago—that it would hire individuals in legal, same-sex marriages. Now I guess it won’t. Back to business as usual in fundy world.

My head is spinning.

rachelheldevans.com

317 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:44:58pm

re: #315 Testy Toad T

You seem only to make sincere replies to the snarky posts, ignoring the difficult realities expressed in the longer ones. Because the real world is icky and gray-shaded and hard to distill into nice clean tidy boxes.

So here we are.

Because reality sucks.
Easier to theorycraft than to look at how messed up things are.

318 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:45:17pm

What is it with people and just not saying shit directly? I don’t get it when Killgore does it, I don’t get it when NJDHockey does it, and now I don’t get it when Pamerskiss does it.

What is the fucking point of talking so much if you’re not going to actually say what you want to have happen?

319 ramex  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:46:11pm

re: #318 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What is it with people and just not saying shit directly? I don’t get it when Killgore does it, I don’t get it when NJDHockey does it, and now I don’t get it when Pamerskiss does it.

What is the fucking point of talking so much if you’re not going to actually say what you want to have happen?

National Seppuku

320 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:46:34pm

re: #318 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What is the fucking point of talking so much if you’re not going to actually say what you want to have happen?

They don’t know. Actions have consequences; platitudes can spew forth until the end of time without worrying if you’ve accidentally screwed anything up.

321 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:46:34pm

re: #301 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It is definitely true that we bear much more responsibility, not just because of the democratic nature of our government but for the other privileges we have, than people of other nations do for the actions of their leaders.

It’s still pants-on-head dumb to say we’re all equally to blame, and—more aggravating—useless.

Yes. It leaves one thinking, ‘And…?’, because it basically means nobody can ask for better behavior of anyone.

One thing I deplore among Conservatives, however, is the tendency to deny or gloss over any wrongdoing in America’s past. We did horrible shit, and we did it very effectively and for a long time, but part of who we are is that we look at it and say, “Christ! That was bad! We aren’t going to do THAT again!” America is about trying to be and do better, which goes against Conservatism because it always believes we’re worse now than we were in the past.

So, when I see non-Conservatives denying their part in the collective responsibility that comes with democracy, I feel compelled to point it out. But I try to do it less stupidly.

322 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:47:19pm

re: #310 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, I’m not sure how you can be confused about this, but what I’m saying you cannot make a judgment on is whether Russia or the US was a ‘better’ actor on the world stage in 2000-2009. If what your actual claim was “The US killed more people during 2000-2009”, then you should have said that, and not said ‘better actor’, which is an obviously much more complex concept.

ok - i give you the semantics win on this. In this instance - my issue is body count - because you know - humans.

but fair enough - if we parse it that way - fine.

Holy shit, why won’t you actually say what you want me to do? What is the point of this sort of activism? Say I start shouting right along there with you—four fingers back at us, the US should have justice for Iraq—what is it you want to happen next? Why won’t you actually say it?

i want you to not give up on the idea of consistency with a ‘meh, what can be done’ - too much to ask? you do live in the united states - so no i dont think so.

Demand of who, and how? What form will this ‘justice’ take? Why can’t you actually say anything concrete? Are you allergic to concrete?

well for one - we could write about it - i shouldnt have to tell you the myriad of ways you can continue to stand for justice over iraq - what seems to have happened is - the real error i made was - suggesting we not forget our injustice has context for our immediate present and future.

i get it - we all want to comfortably move past that difficult era in our history - i am just not as willing as some of you to forget that in our name many many many people died for a mistake.

323 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:48:02pm

re: #318 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Honestly I think in palmerskiss’s case, it’s because s/he doesn’t have the guts to say “be like me and be morally pure.”

324 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:48:09pm

re: #313 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Newsflash: People in the US don’t actually share equal access to political power.

Shocking I know.

agreed = you are not suggesting i am claiming disenfranchised people share the same blame?

you are just looking to chip off points off the argument - but why? we dont have to do that dance.

325 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:48:17pm

Little Girl Dog is now on phenobarbital. Sounds like the side effects are not fun.

326 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:48:22pm

re: #322 palmerskiss

No one is forgetting that.
Stop saying that.
We will regret what we did for decades.

327 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:48:39pm

re: #319 ramex

National Seppuku

Well, fuck that shit. I don’t have much longer on the planet anyway, and I’m not doing myself in, figuratively or literally, just because some dudebro wants me to. Especially over something I detested, protested, and had no power to prevent.

328 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:49:01pm

re: #323 Internet Tough Guy

Honestly I think in palmerskiss’s case, it’s because s/he doesn’t have the guts to say “be like me and be morally pure.”

when did i claim moral purity? the very first person i blamed was myself. or did you miss it?

i pointed out my failings - my culpability first.

329 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:49:18pm

re: #311 palmerskiss

no - democracy is of, for and by the people.

or are you claiming the basis for american liberty is false.

“American liberty” is a moving target. In one of it’s basic documents it considered an entire human sub-class only worth 3/5 of a man in regards to defining representation. And that group didn’t have voting rights either.

And our government’s actions in that regard have often been pragmatic, short-sighted, self-serving, and not really considerate of justice or fairness. Though the actions are often cloaked in those terms.

What we have is in actuality an awful system. It just so happens to be superior to a lot of the other systems that have been attempted.

330 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:49:39pm

I will regret voting for Bush and supporting the Iraq war for the rest of my life.
I don’t hide when faced with my incorrect choices.
Stop saying I do.

331 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:49:40pm

re: #318 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What is it with people and just not saying shit directly? I don’t get it when Killgore does it, I don’t get it when NJDHockey does it, and now I don’t get it when Pamerskiss does it.

What is the fucking point of talking so much if you’re not going to actually say what you want to have happen?

When I do it the point is to talk regarding the issue and hopefully wear the other side down without having to directly put forward potentially unpopular ideas. I sometimes do that here when I’m concerned that making my point directly will most likely lead to my being downdinged a lot.

332 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:50:14pm

re: #306 palmerskiss

i am simply understanding my place in a democracy - i never remove myself from the equation of blame.

i understand my place in the world - i try and make it a better position to stand from. i am thankful to live in a democracy - and i am mindful of taking it for granted.

This is not a healthy approach to the role of a citizen. It’s like the Calvinist clinging to his own damnation. Take the blame for what you do or acquiesce in. Screw the rest.

333 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:50:42pm

re: #329 Feline Fearless Leader

“American liberty” is a moving target. In one of it’s basic documents it considered an entire human sub-class only worth 3/5 of a man in regards to defining representation. And that group didn’t have voting rights either.

And our government’s actions in that regard have often been pragmatic, short-sighted, self-serving, and not really considerate of justice or fairness. Though the actions are often cloaked in those terms.

What we have is in actuality an awful system. It just so happens to be superior to a lot of the other systems that have been attempted.

i have no disagreement with any point you made. none.

334 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:51:02pm

Yeah, I think I’ll stay out of this conversation.

off for a nap.

335 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:51:21pm

re: #322 palmerskiss

ok - i give you the semantics win on this. In this instance - my issue is body count - because you know - humans.

Then count the saved, as well as the lost, during that time period.

Also, learn how to quote, there’s a preview button and everything.

well for one - we could write about it - i shouldnt have to tell you the myriad of ways you can continue to stand for justice over iraq - what seems to have happened is - the real error i made was - suggesting we not forget our injustice has context for our immediate present and future.

Write about it? Okay, so I write a post tomorrow. Then what? And fine, you shouldn’t have to tell me, but I’m really dumb, apparently, and you do have to tell me. So why, please, for fuck’s sake, won’t you just tell me what these myriad of ways I can continue to stand for justice over Iraq are? I’m looking for more than symbolic actions, you’re talking about justice and I want to know what the goal is. Why won’t you actually tell me?

i get it - we all want to comfortably move past that difficult era in our history - i am just not as willing as some of you to forget that in our name many many many people died for a mistake.

Iraq comes up here all the time, and people talk about how fucked up it was all the time. Why on earth do you think anyone here wants to move past it?

You got real weird, real fast.

336 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:51:25pm

re: #332 Decatur Deb

This is not a healthy approach to the role of a citizen. It’s like the Calvinist clinging to his own damnation. Take the blame for what you do or acquiesce in. Screw the rest.

no - but it keeps me aware of the price of democracy and prevents me from taking it for granted.

337 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:51:35pm

I still want to know what happens when lilly-white purity fails, and people don’t do exactly as Pamerskiss hopes and wishes. What if… sit down as I tell you this… what if not enough people write on the internet that the Iraq invasion was wrong?!

Is there a Plan B? Does the entire morass of international policy just come crumbling down?

338 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:52:31pm

re: #330 Varek Raith

I will regret voting for Bush and supporting the Iraq war for the rest of my life.
I don’t hide when faced with my incorrect choices.
Stop saying I do.

I’m very glad for pk that she wasn’t alive for the 1964 elections.

339 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:52:35pm

re: #335 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Then count the saved, as well as the lost, during that time period.

Also, learn how to quote, there’s a preview button and everything.

Write about it? Okay, so I write a post tomorrow. Then what? And fine, you shouldn’t have to tell me, but I’m really dumb, apparently, and you do have to tell me. So why, please, for fuck’s sake, won’t you just tell me what these myriad of ways I can continue to stand for justice over Iraq are? I’m looking for more than symbolic actions, you’re talking about justice and I want to know what the goal is. Why won’t you actually tell me?

Iraq comes up here all the time, and people talk about how fucked up it was all the time. Why on earth do you think anyone here wants to move past it?

You got real weird, real fast.

i got weird because i pointed out context on chavez and the united states - uncomfortable context?

ok - i’m fine with that.

340 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:52:56pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

I’m very glad for pk that she wasn’t alive for the 1964 elections.

Oy, I can’t even imagine what that was like.

341 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:53:05pm

re: #335 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Then count the saved, as well as the lost, during that time period.

Also, learn how to quote, there’s a preview button and everything.

Write about it? Okay, so I write a post tomorrow. Then what? And fine, you shouldn’t have to tell me, but I’m really dumb, apparently, and you do have to tell me. So why, please, for fuck’s sake, won’t you just tell me what these myriad of ways I can continue to stand for justice over Iraq are? I’m looking for more than symbolic actions, you’re talking about justice and I want to know what the goal is. Why won’t you actually tell me?

Iraq comes up here all the time, and people talk about how fucked up it was all the time. Why on earth do you think anyone here wants to move past it?

You got real weird, real fast.

“You found me beautiful, once.”

“Yeah, sister, but you got REAL ugly.”

342 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:53:37pm

re: #324 palmerskiss

agreed = you are not suggesting i am claiming disenfranchised people share the same blame?
.

Yes, because you said that we live in a democracy and we all share the blame. You didn’t say.. “except for disenfranchised people, and people who are effectively cut out from the mechanisms of power, and people who we, as a society, failed to educate in any meaningful way” or any other caveat.

343 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:53:43pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

I’m very glad for pk that she wasn’t alive for the 1964 elections.

please do not assume i do not understand the nuance and difficulty of democracy - i am not disenfranchised. my part in our collective journey is actualized.

344 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:54:26pm

re: #339 palmerskiss

i got weird because i pointed out context on chavez and the united states - uncomfortable context?

ok - i’m fine with that.

No, you got weird because you’re constantly dodging the question of what you want to have happen. You’re stridently calling for action, but when I ask “To what end, what do you want to have happen” you just whistle and look off into the distance, or repeat the call for action.

That’s what’s weird.

Is the more clear?

345 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:54:34pm

re: #342 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Yes, because you said that we live in a democracy and we all share the blame. You didn’t say.. “except for disenfranchised people, and people who are effectively cut out from the mechanisms of power, and people who we, as a society, failed to educate in any meaningful way” or any other caveat.

ok - so here it is - those in a democracy share blame - except for those people who are unable to fully participate in it.

redundant? maybe?

346 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:55:47pm

re: #343 palmerskiss

please do not assume i do not understand the nuance and difficulty of democracy - i am not disenfranchised. my part in our collective journey is actualized.

You are hugging guilt for politicians and policies made before you were enfranchised. Find a better path.

347 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:56:07pm

re: #345 palmerskiss

ok - so here it is - those in a democracy share blame - except for those people who are unable to fully participate in it.

redundant? maybe?

Well, as you may or may not have guessed, I think that apportioning blame in that way is simply pointless anyway. But no, that’s not enough—because what does it mean to ‘fully’ participate in it. I can’t contribute millions of dollars to a political campaign. Sheldon Adelson can. Are you saying that he and I share the same amount of influence on US policy? If not, why do we have the same amount of the blame?

348 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:56:17pm

re: #345 palmerskiss

This is why you are being aggressed.
You don’t answer directly leading others to assume or wonder what you really mean.
You also move goalposts.
This is not conductive to a good debate.

349 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:56:19pm

re: #345 palmerskiss

ok - so here it is - those in a democracy share blame - except for those people who are unable to fully participate in it.

redundant? maybe?

Clarity often requires nuance or repetition/redundancy in order to make clear the point you’re communicating.

350 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:56:59pm

So many Philosophy 101 buzzwords, so little time.

I’m going to go find something productive to do. There’s not much else to contribute here.

351 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:57:17pm

re: #346 Decatur Deb

You are hugging guilt for politicians and policies made before you were enfranchised. Find a better path.

You’re like the Obi-Wan of LGF except without the lying to a kid about who his father is part and the training a guy who he knew was dangerous actually fuck it you’re cooler than Obi Wan, but your lines would sound good delivered by Alec Guinness.

352 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:57:41pm

re: #343 palmerskiss

please do not assume i do not understand the nuance and difficulty of democracy - i am not disenfranchised. my part in our collective journey is actualized.

That was more a reference to the fact that 1964 saw the liberal Lyndon Johnson defeat conservative Barry Goldwater but then proceed to get the US mired in Vietnam. Johnson Vietnam failure left may people sorry they voted for him.

353 Kragar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:57:48pm

Well, in other news, I see Forgeworld is finally getting around to making more Night Lords stuff. Hopefully Space Wolves will be getting some new stuff soon as well.

354 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:58:05pm

re: #346 Decatur Deb

You are hugging guilt for politicians and policies made before you were enfranchised. Find a better path.

Indeed. Taking responsibility for such only works if it’s used as a guide for future behavior, like “Don’t vote for Republicans” or “Don’t think we can really control all the events we set in motion.”

355 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:58:13pm

re: #351 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You’re like the Obi-Wan of LGF except without the lying to a kid about who his father is part and the training a guy who he knew was dangerous actually fuck it you’re cooler than Obi Wan, but your lines would sound good delivered by Alec Guinness.

Heh, awesome.

356 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:58:34pm

Big fire in Boston Back Bay area. At least five firefighters injured.

bostonglobe.com

357 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:58:37pm

re: #351 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You’re like the Obi-Wan of LGF except without the lying to a kid about who his father is part and the training a guy who he knew was dangerous actually fuck it you’re cooler than Obi Wan, but your lines would sound good delivered by Alec Guinness.

I’m older than that robed punk.

358 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:59:26pm

re: #344 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, you got weird because you’re constantly dodging the question of what you want to have happen. You’re stridently calling for action, but when I ask “To what end, what do you want to have happen” you just whistle and look off into the distance, or repeat the call for action.

That’s what’s weird.

Is the more clear?

what i want to happen? ok here i will list some - not a complete list of ways obviously:

write about it. bring it up when it is pertinent, urge politicians to seek justice, mention it when it is uncomfortable - say in discussions about chavez - so that they be starkly contrasted. even if it is uncomfortable. and even if people call you weird or ugly for it. urge others to do the same. call them out when they dismiss it. advocate restrictions for making war. advocate for legal outcomes.

you get the point - i get this all makes you uncomfortable - and you can attack me personally for it - but this is a big deal - and a lot of people died. and no - i am not sorry for making us uncomfortable talking about it.

359 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 1:59:36pm

Oh, goody! We get to beat up on a woman who shares far more of the blame for Iraq than any of us do. : )

360 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:00:27pm

re: #347 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Well, as you may or may not have guessed, I think that apportioning blame in that way is simply pointless anyway. But no, that’s not enough—because what does it mean to ‘fully’ participate in it. I can’t contribute millions of dollars to a political campaign. Sheldon Adelson can. Are you saying that he and I share the same amount of influence on US policy? If not, why do we have the same amount of the blame?

we can debate the power of money in politics - sheldon adelson did not win.

361 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:02:12pm

re: #358 palmerskiss

“Advocate for legal outcomes.”

You still won’t say what you want to have happen. You know it. We know it. Your mealy-mouthed words certainly know it.

I hope you’re a lawyer or PR consultant, so this talent for empty platitudes finds some real use in this world.

362 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:02:22pm

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

That was more a reference to the fact that 1964 saw the liberal Lyndon Johnson defeat conservative Barry Goldwater but then proceed to get the US mired in Vietnam. Johnson Vietnam failure left may people sorry they voted for him.

I would argue that Johnson’s involvement in Vietnam was part of the Liberalism of the time, and I think something that Liberals realized was an error - the belief that the US should used its military might as World Policemen. FDR Liberalism was interventionist, it was the Liberals who wanted us to get involved in WWII and the Conservatives who wanted to keep us out.

The thing is, Goldwater would probably have done no better in Vietnam, and likely far worse at home. I certainly don’t regret Johnson’s election.

363 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:02:28pm

re: #358 palmerskiss

It doesn’t make me uncomfortable.
It annoys me as you seem to want to deflect from any discussion that doesn’t involve Iraq.
We get that we fucked up. Bringing it up constantly doesn’t do anything except make yourself feel better I guess.

364 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:03:00pm

re: #359 Justanotherhuman

Oh, goody! We get to beat up on a woman who shares far more of the blame for Iraq than any of us do. : )

You can yell at me for a bit.

365 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:03:20pm

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

That was more a reference to the fact that 1964 saw the liberal Lyndon Johnson defeat conservative Barry Goldwater but then proceed to get the US mired in Vietnam. Johnson Vietnam failure left may people sorry they voted for him.

at least now we are talking about the price of democracy and how difficult it is - and how important we remember that it is precious.

vietnam highlights all of these same issues. i was not born - so i do not share the same personal connection to it i do with iraq - which was carried out in my name.

366 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:04:03pm

re: #363 Varek Raith

It doesn’t make me uncomfortable.
It annoys me as you seem to want to deflect from any discussion that doesn’t involve Iraq.
We get that we fucked up. Bringing it up constantly doesn’t do anything except make yourself feel better I guess.

i’ll talk about anything - you seem to be misrepresenting me.

367 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:05:29pm

re: #362 GeneJockey

I would argue that Johnson’s involvement in Vietnam was part of the Liberalism of the time, and I think something that Liberals realized was an error - the belief that the US should used its military might as World Policemen. FDR Liberalism was interventionist, it was the Liberals who wanted us to get involved in WWII and the Conservatives who wanted to keep us out.

The thing is, Goldwater would probably have done no better in Vietnam, and likely far worse at home. I certainly don’t regret Johnson’s election.

Best of a rum lot. Served under him, voted for him, then marched against him.

368 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:06:05pm

re: #358 palmerskiss

write about it. bring it up when it is pertinent, urge politicians to seek justice,

For fuck’s sake, what does ‘seek justice’ mean? If I go up to a senator and say ‘seek justice on Iraq’ he’ll say, if he’s not just blowing me off, “What do you mean?” And you have no answer, apparently.

What do you mean? What are you asking me to ask for?

say in discussions about chavez - so that they be starkly contrasted.

I’m sorry, why is contrasting it a good thing? Chavez is also dead, so I’m kind of lost on this point.

advocate restrictions for making war. advocate for legal outcomes.

I do advocate for restrictions for making war—but again, something concrete would be nice here. What legal outcomes are you talking about? Get over your allergy to actually saying something specific.

you get the point - i get this all makes you uncomfortable - and you can attack me personally for it - but this is a big deal - and a lot of people died. and no - i am not sorry for making us uncomfortable talking about it.

It doesn’t make me uncomfortable. I talk about Iraq all the time, and what a fucking disaster it was, and how it is a model of what not to do on every level. How it shows that a democracy isn’t surety against anything. What I’m not doing is saying, when Putin invades the Crimea “Well, the US has done shitty things too,” because that is A) pointless and B) encourages shit like Iraq.

I have no fucking clue where you get this idea that you’re floating above us on some sort of hard-truths cloud while we’re all trying to forget it.

369 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:06:22pm

re: #294 GeneJockey

Now that’s swinging too far the other way. Did a majority of Muslims elect and reelect Al Qaeda?

Terrorism is something carried out by a tiny minority with neither the consent nor support of more than a slightly larger minority of Muslims, whereas the Iraq invasion was carried out by a President duly elected, with the support of a majority of the representatives elected by a majority of their citizens.

We bear responsibility for what our government does, because that’s how we set it up, those are the rules we agreed to abide by.

I mean if we don’t bear collective responsibility for the actions of a government formed by our just consent, how the hell is it all supposed to work?

Al Qaeda aren’t the only terrorists out there.
I read Varek’s comment as a broader point. For example, Egypt, Morsi, Muslim Brotherhood, Arab Spring and all the messy democracy involved and that continues there.
Humans are individuals and, even at the extremes, there is never 100% agreement on anything.
As a group, we are very messy overall. However, pushing group guilt for an particular action or inaction, as palmerskiss is suggesting is not productive, nor is it realistic.
Saying all Americans are collectively responsible for Iraq is like blaming me as a Kentuckian for every action and nonsense by Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell, even though I voted for and actively work to elect someone else. Or blaming every Alaskan for Sarah Palin. Or every Floridian for Rick Scott, SYG and Palmetto bugs. And so on and so on.

370 Lancelot Link  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:06:24pm

re: #339 palmerskiss

i got weird because i pointed out context on chavez and the united states - uncomfortable context?

Speaking of “context”, the criticism of Chavez on this particular thread was an unflatteringly hypocritical quote from a certain Mr Greenwald (who did, at that time, give Bush the “benefit of the doubt” regarding the Iraq invasion). If you object to that statement regarding Chavez, perhaps you should address your objection to the man who originally wrote it.

371 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:08:02pm

re: #366 palmerskiss

i’ll talk about anything - you seem to be misrepresenting me.

If I am misrepresenting you it is because you are vague and dance around the subject. You can’t answer things directly. That is all we want. Direct answers to direct questions without delving in to word salad responses.
Was my previous post about terrorism over the line? Probably. I apologize for that. But I asked it simply because I couldn’t get a straight answer out of you.
Most of your posts are long and contain little to no actual answers. This is why we are left to assume and wonder what in the blazes you are trying to get across.

372 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:09:06pm

re: #362 GeneJockey

I would argue that Johnson’s involvement in Vietnam was part of the Liberalism of the time, and I think something that Liberals realized was an error - the belief that the US should used its military might as World Policemen. FDR Liberalism was interventionist, it was the Liberals who wanted us to get involved in WWII and the Conservatives who wanted to keep us out.

The thing is, Goldwater would probably have done no better in Vietnam, and likely far worse at home. I certainly don’t regret Johnson’s election.

it’s hard to speculate about how Barry Goldwater would have handled Vietnam, in large part because after JFK’s assassination it became almost impossible for him to have won the election.

373 RealityBasedSteve  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:10:24pm

Bookmarked for later reading…

RBS

374 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:10:33pm

re: #368 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

For fuck’s sake, what does ‘seek justice’ mean? If I go up to a state senator and say ‘seek justice on Iraq’ he’ll say, if he’s not just blowing me off, “What do you mean?” And you have no answer, apparently.

What do you mean? What are you asking me to ask for?

I’m sorry, why is contrasting it a good thing? Chavez is also dead, so I’m kind of lost on this point.

that was my point - chavez is dead. bush is not. perspective - remember?

I do advocate for restrictions for making war. What legal outcomes are you talking about?

i’d like to see a congressional inquiry similar to what the U.K managed - that would be a start - yes? we can do that - it is a democracy after all…

It doesn’t make me uncomfortable. I talk about Iraq all the time, and what a fucking disaster it was, and how it is a model of what not to do on every level. How it shows that a democracy isn’t surety against anything. What I’m not doing is saying, when Putin invades the Crimea “Well, the US has done shitty things too,” because that is A) pointless and B) encourages shit like Iraq.

if it wasnt uncomfortable for you - why attack me personally? here is how that went - people we all have our own burdens to answer for - please remember this - to “you are a wierd and ugly person” certainly seems like some of you got very very uncomfortable at my claims we all share in a democracy.

I have no fucking clue where you get this idea that you’re floating above us on some sort of hard-truths cloud while we’re all trying to forget it.

well for one - claiming my refusal to not point out iraq is somehow immoral is one… that did happen - remember?

375 Testy Toad T  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:11:07pm

Example, for the sake of argument: “I want George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney to be tried by the International Criminal Court at the Hague for crimes against peace.”

I swear, that wasn’t hard to type. If that was what I want, hypothetically, I would say it and then stand behind it and defend it.

376 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:11:21pm

re: #373 RealityBasedSteve

Bookmarked for later reading…

RBS

You gonna share?

377 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:11:33pm

re: #367 Decatur Deb

Best of a rum lot. Voted for him, served under him, then marched against him.

I’m younger, so I supported him the way a 6 year old child of Democrats would, then later badmouthed him the way an 11 year old child of Liberals would.

Later I looked more at the totality of Johnson and saw his Presidency as more of a tragedy of circumstance. Vietnam will forever overshadow his great accomplishments. Everyone sees Vietnam and thinks Johnson, but most don’t see Medicare and think Johnson.

378 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:11:37pm

re: #371 Varek Raith

If I am misrepresenting you it is because you are vague and dance around the subject. You can’t answer things directly. That is all we want. Direct answers to direct questions without delving in to word salad responses.
Was my previous post about terrorism over the line? Probably. I apologize for that. But I asked it simply because I couldn’t get a straight answer out of you.
Most of your posts are long and contain little to no actual answers. This is why we are left to assume and wonder what in the blazes you are trying to get across.

like i told you - you lost that privilege when you engaged in cheap debate.

i answer those who do not.

had you behaved better i would have no problem answering your direct questions

379 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:12:28pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

it’s hard to speculate about how Barry Goldwater would have handled Vietnam, in large part because after JFK’s assassination it became almost impossible for him to have won the election.

I think being a fucking troglodyte did that pretty effectively.

380 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:13:02pm

re: #370 Lancelot Link

Speaking of “context”, the criticism of Chavez on this particular thread was an unflatteringly hypocritical quote from a certain Mr Greenwald (who did, at that time, give Bush the “benefit of the doubt” regarding the Iraq invasion). If you object to that statement regarding Chavez, perhaps you should address your objection to the man who originally wrote it.

i have no love for greenwald. however, i was just asking for perspective on chavez. it was pertinent - the context was apt.

381 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:13:35pm

re: #378 palmerskiss

There’s a slight problem with that.
I resorted to cheap tactics after you didn’t answer repeated direct questions.

382 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:14:07pm

re: #381 Varek Raith

There’s a slight problem with that.
I resorted to cheap tactics after you didn’t answer repeated direct questions.

if you say so - who am i to disagree.

383 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:14:46pm

re: #374 palmerskiss

i’d like to see a congressional inquiry similar to what the U.K managed - that would be a start - yes? we can do that - it is a democracy after all

Are you living in the same US as I am, where the GOP just almost made us default? You think that we can get an inquiry into the Iraq War now, and that that inquiry would proceed in any sort of good way?

Say we could make it happen—what are you wiling to sacrifice, politically, to make this happen? What are you willing to give the GOP so that we can have this inquiry?

if it wasnt uncomfortable for you - why attack me personally?

I don’t even get the connection there. I’ve been very, very fucking clear about how you’re annoying me: It’s taken goddamn how many posts for you to finally, creakily, unwillingly start telling me what the hell you actually are asking for. I have not been in the least bit shy about letting you know this is what is annoying me. I have no fucking clue how on earth you can have missed that, since I repeated it over and over and over.

well for one - claiming my refusal to not point out iraq is somehow immoral is one… that did happen - remember?

Your refusal to not point out Iraq what? What are you talking about? Immoral? Can you point to the post where I did this bad bad thing?

384 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:17:20pm

re: #382 palmerskiss

if you say so - who am i to disagree.

So, why do you have such trouble directly answering Obdi?
He’s far more engaged with you than trolls like me.

385 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:18:06pm

re: #377 GeneJockey

I’m younger, so I supported him the way a 6 year old child of Democrats would, then later badmouthed him the way an 11 year old child of Liberals would.

Later I looked more at the totality of Johnson and saw his Presidency as more of a tragedy of circumstance. Vietnam will forever overshadow his great accomplishments. Everyone sees Vietnam and thinks Johnson, but most don’t see Medicare and think Johnson.

But by the same token, few people think of George W. Bush and think of the drug benefit he added to Medicare or the money and effort he devoted fighting HIV/AIDS in Africa*. It is a fact of human nature that national leaders who are in power during a major war will be defined more by their actions regarding that war than by anything else.

*: Few people in the US, that is, in Uganda and Zambia, by contrast, the people there do remember Bush’s anti-HIV efforts and remember them with fondness.

386 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:18:53pm

re: #383 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Are you living in the same US as I am, where the GOP just almost made us default? You think that we can get an inquiry into the Iraq War now, and that that inquiry would proceed in any sort of good way?

Say we could make it happen—what are you wiling to sacrifice, politically, to make this happen? What are you willing to give the GOP so that we can have this inquiry?

I don’t even get the connection there. I’ve been very, very fucking clear about how you’re annoying me: It’s taken goddamn how many posts for you to finally, creakily, unwillingly start telling me what the hell you actually are asking for. I have not been in the least bit shy about letting you know this is what is annoying me. I have no fucking clue how on earth you can have missed that, since I repeated it over and over and over.

Your refusal to not point out Iraq what? What are you talking about? Immoral? Can you point to the post where I did this bad bad thing?

sorry i have trouble with the quoting system it does not bend to my will - i will address each point here:

Are you living in the same US as I am, where the GOP just almost made us default? You think that we can get an inquiry into the Iraq War now, and that that inquiry would proceed in any sort of good way?

I am not willing to accept our economic issues are an excuse to not seek justice - that should answer your question.

Your refusal to not point out Iraq what? What are you talking about? Immoral? Can you point to the post where I did this bad bad thing?

not you - had it been you i wouldnt still be debating you - however - it did happen - on this thread - you threw the ethical high ground argument at me - however - i never called you immoral - i made a claim of shared responsibility - which is not a personal attack -

387 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:19:21pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Bush’s HIV/AIDS work in Africa is smeared and crippled by his forcing of abstinence-only education and problems in dealing with NGOs that promoted abortion, unfortunately.

388 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:19:40pm

I would love a full inquiry in to the Iraq war.
Sadly, that’s not going to happen anytime soon.

389 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:22:44pm

re: #386 palmerskiss

I am not willing to accept our economic issues are an excuse to not seek justice - that should answer your question.

It fucking doesn’t. The GOP exists. How are you going to get this inquiry, with the GOP in control of the House. What is your plan— or rather, what do you want me to ask my senator to do?

You see, my actual plan is to work to get more sane, progressive, and scientific politicians elected, so that one day, in the future, if people gin up a war on cooked up intelligence we might actually be able to prosecute a few of them.

But I’m totally interested in your plan to get the GOP house to launch a congressional inquiry into US war crimes in Iraq.

not you - had it been you i wouldnt still be debating you - however - it did happen - on this thread - you threw the ethical high ground argument at me - however - i never called you immoral - i made a claim of shared responsibility - which is not a personal attack -

Okay this dash thing is also incredibly annoying. I didn’t say you’d called me immoral. You didn’t make me uncomfortable in bringing up Iraq, and the arrogance of thinking that you did makes me lower my regard of you.

390 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:24:49pm

re: #386 palmerskiss

I agree with much of what your are trying to say.
Just not the group blame stuff.
Also, the realities of making what you want happen. There are many hurdles and ignoring them doesn’t help.

391 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:28:28pm
It fucking doesn’t. The GOP exists. How are you going to get this inquiry, with the GOP in control of the House. What is your plan— or rather, what do you want me to ask my senator to do?

maybe i just want to piss you off enough that you’ll do something just to get me to shut up.

that is a joke. all i wanted was to put on the record - yeah chavez is no angle (angel*) (sic) - he is a bad dude - but my personal perspective will not allow to me suggest his error led to 100,000 civilian deaths in iraq.

that was what i wanted on the record - i am not sorry we had a debate about iraq - yes iraq is an uncomfortable unflattering topic - but at least we talked about it in context.

You see, my actual plan is to work to get more progressive politicians elected, so that one day, in the future, if people gin up a war on cooked up intelligence we might actually be able to prosecute a few of them.

i am with you on that and that is a good plan.

“But I’m totally interested in your plan to get the GOP house to launch a congressional inquiry into US war crimes in Iraq.”

my plan is to never shut up about it… obviously.

You didn’t make me uncomfortable in bringing up Iraq, and the arrogance of thinking that you did makes me lower my regard of you.

i tend to take “weird” and personal attacks as a sign someone got uncomfortable. i could be wrong. we are all victims of our own perception after-all.

392 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:31:09pm

re: #391 palmerskiss

I’m going to ask you one question that I’d like you to answer as directly as possible:

Do you blame the Bush administration for civilians murdered by Al Qaeda in Iraq?

393 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:32:20pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to ask you one question that I’d like you to answer as directly as possible:

Do you blame the Bush administration for civilians murdered by Al Qaeda in Iraq?

no - i blame the bush administration for willful negligence that led to a situation that allowed for civilians to be murdered by Al Qaeda.

394 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:32:21pm

re: #389 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I…Okay this dash thing is also incredibly annoying…

My Mom’s letters would have driven you nuts, then. She seemed to believe that there were only 3 forms of punctuation: the dash, the exclamation mark, and the ellipsis.

395 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:32:59pm

re: #394 GeneJockey

My Mom’s letters would have driven you nuts, then. She seemed to believe that there were only 3 forms of punctuation: the dash, the exclamation mark, and the ellipsis.

a woman after my own heart.

396 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:34:50pm

re: #394 GeneJockey

btw - if everybody looked the same we’d get tired of looking at each other. so in my opinion your mom rocked.

397 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:34:56pm

re: #391 palmerskiss

maybe i just want to piss you off enough that you’ll do something just to get me to shut up.

that is a joke. all i wanted was to put on the record - yeah chavez is no angle (angel*) (sic) - he is a bad dude - but my personal perspective will not allow to me suggest his error led to 100,000 civilian deaths in iraq.

that was what i wanted on the record - i am not sorry we had a debate about iraq - yes iraq is an uncomfortable unflattering topic - but at least we talked about it in context.

But nobody suggested that his error les to 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq. Venezuala is now teetering on the brink of immense supression and possible civil war, and if that happens, a lot of it can be tied back to Chavez’s political style. But whatever, I’m not even intrested in tallying up these good and bad marks.

And again, I don’t know how many times I need to say it: Iraq isn’t an uncomfortable topic. That you keep insisting I find it uncomfortable when I say that I don’t is basically saying I’m lying, so please cut it the fuck out.

my plan is to never shut up about it… obviously.

That’s not a plan. If that’s your plan—you don’t have a plan.

i tend to take “weird” and personal attacks as a sign someone got uncomfortable. i could be wrong. we are all victims of our own perception after-all.

I made it very, very clear what I was finding so unbearable: That you were dodging all the questions about what you actually want to happen, want me to do. I was explicitly clear about that. I am not sure how you can have possibly missed that, since it is in basically every single one of my posts, pleading with you to actually say something concrete.

398 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:35:40pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to ask you one question that I’d like you to answer as directly as possible:

Do you blame the Bush administration for civilians murdered by Al Qaeda in Iraq?

Dark, do you think we (meaning the US) bear responsibility for AQ being there in the first place? I mean, they weren’t there before, but rather moved in after, taking advantage of the chaos our upsetting of the civil government caused. Absent the invasion, would those people have died?

399 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:36:10pm

re: #394 GeneJockey

My Mom’s letters would have driven you nuts, then. She seemed to believe that there were only 3 forms of punctuation: the dash, the exclamation mark, and the ellipsis.

I have a dear friend who writes in 12 point bold pink comic sans. So goddamn annoying, she’s such a bright and nice woman but her emails look like they’re written by a lunatic or a 16 year old girl.

400 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:36:52pm

re: #397 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But nobody suggested that his error les to 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq. Venezuala is now teetering on the brink of immense supression and possible civil war, and if that happens, a lot of it can be tied back to Chavez’s political style. But whatever, I’m not even intrested in tallying up these good and bad marks.

And again, I don’t know how many times I need to say it: Iraq isn’t an uncomfortable topic. That you keep insisting I find it uncomfortable when I say that I don’t is basically saying I’m lying, so please cut it the fuck out.

That’s not a plan. If that’s your plan—you don’t have a plan.

I made it very, very clear what I was finding so unbearable: That you were dodging all the questions about what you actually want to happen, want me to do. I was explicitly clear about that. I am not sure how you can have possibly missed that, since it is in basically every single one of my posts, pleading with you to actually say something concrete.

I was clear every time i told you what i thought you should do . what you really seem to be claiming is that speech and public pressure can not be used as measures of power - i tend to disagree.

401 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:37:22pm

re: #399 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I have a dear friend who writes in 12 point bold pink comic sans. So goddamn annoying, she’s such a bright and nice woman but her emails look like they’re written by a lunatic or a 16 year old girl.

i appreciate people who colour outside the lines.

402 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:39:55pm

re: #398 GeneJockey

Dark, do you think we (meaning the US) bear responsibility for AQ being there in the first place? I mean, they weren’t there before, but rather moved in after, taking advantage of the chaos our upsetting of the civil government caused. Absent the invasion, would those people have died?

Some of them would have, given that they were Shiites who would have still been living under a murderous Sunni regime.

But that aside, I don’t think the US can be faulted for Al Qaeda deciding to try to set up shop in Iraq. Bin Laden and his monstrous crew decided to support making Iraq a takeover target for their form of totalitarianism, we didn’t make that decision for then.

403 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:41:40pm

re: #400 palmerskiss

I was clear every time i told you what i thought you should do . w

No, you weren’t. I asked you concretetly what I should do, and over and over again you refused to answer.

And in the end, I found that that’s because you don’t actually have something that could happen, that you want.

hat you really seem to be claiming is that speech and public pressure can not be used as measures of power - i tend to disagree.

That is not in the least bit what I’m claiming. I am saying that getting an inquiry into US war crimes into Iraq in the current political environment, with the GOP in control of the house and possibly gaining control of the senate, is impossible, or only possible if you’re willing to horse-trade something really big to the GOP. They pretty much hate Bush now, so it’s possible, but only if you give them something huge. When I asked you what you were willing to trade, you didn’t answer.

You don’t have a plan. Using speech and public pressure will not get an inquiry into the Iraq war. It didn’t prevent the Iraq War, either. It has power, but it also has limitations. This would seem trivially obvious to me.

re: #401 palmerskiss

i appreciate people who colour outside the lines.

I don’t like self-indulgence.

404 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:44:51pm

re: #402 Dark_Falcon

Some of them would have, given that they were Shiites who would have still been living under a murderous Sunni regime.

But that aside, I don’t think the US can be faulted for Al Qaeda deciding to try to set up shop in Iraq. Bin Laden and his monstrous crew decided to support making Iraq a takeover target for their form of totalitarianism, we didn’t make that decision for then.

I dunno. I think a hell of a lot more blood was shed that would not have been.

I also don’t think Al Qaeda has any particular form of government in mind. That’s far too constructive for nihilists.

405 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:47:55pm
No, you weren’t. I asked you concretetly what I should do, and over and over again you refused to answer.

agreed = i did not outline a 12 point manifesto for you to follow - but i made it clear every time that i believed using speech and public pressure was the desire.

And in the end, I found that that’s because you don’t actually have something that could happen, that you want.

a public inquiry is impossible? i hope for all our sake it is not.

That is not in the least bit what I’m claiming. I am saying that getting an inquiry into US war crimes into Iraq in the current political environment, with the GOP in control of the house and possibly gaining control of the senate, is impossible, or only possible if you’re willing to horse-trade something really big to the GOP. They pretty much hate Bush now, so it’s possible, but only if you give them something huge. When I asked you what you were willing to trade, you didn’t answer.

i agree the house is intransigent. that does not make fighting for it worthless. just my opinion.

When I asked you what you were willing to trade, you didn’t answer.

i would be unwilling to trade for justice. justice is a virtue in its own right, and should stand as such.

You don’t have a plan. Using speech and public pressure will not get an inquiry into the Iraq war. It didn’t prevent the Iraq War, either. It has power, but it also has limitations. This would seem trivially obvious to me.

i disagree with you - i see the value of public pressure every single day. I am actively engaged in the use of it to encourage social change.

406 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:50:37pm

re: #405 palmerskiss

agreed = i did not outline a 12 point manifesto for you to follow - but i made it clear every time that i believed using speech and public pressure was the desire.

The problem is beyond that; What you wanted that speech and public pressure to actually achieve.

a public inquiry is impossible? i hope for all our sake it is not.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

i agree the house is intransigent. that does not make fighting for it worthless. just my opinion.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

i would be unwilling to trade for justice. justice is a virtue in its own right, and should stand as such.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

i disagree with you - i see the value of public pressure every single day. I am actively engaged in the use of it to encourage social change.

That’s not disagreeing with me. What I said was that public pressure has limitations. A good example of this was the massive protests against the Iraq war did not, in fact, prevent the Iraq war.

407 sagehen  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:54:03pm

re: #387 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Bush’s HIV/AIDS work in Africa is smeared and crippled by his forcing of abstinence-only education and problems in dealing with NGOs that promoted abortion, unfortunately.

Some of the HIV organizations we used to support in Uganda we can’t anymore… because identifying gay people puts them at risk of prison and/or execution.

408 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 2:58:08pm

re: #406 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The problem is beyond that; What you wanted that speech and public pressure to actually achieve.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

Then lay out a way to get the house GOP to vote for an Iraq inquiry. Go for it.

That’s not disagreeing with me. What I said was that public pressure has limitations. A good example of this was the massive protests against the Iraq war did not, in fact, prevent the Iraq war.

i could outline several ways to get the house to initiate an inquiry - none of them will be to your liking - all are difficult at best, unlikely even. however, i never claimed to have easy answers - i told you expressly what my point was - and it worked. you also do not have to agree with me on that - but at least today - here - some justice was served? was it not? the victims - they were remembered = they were argued over, they are closer to a personal justice than before this discussion.

you can hate those methods - i live by these methods. i stand by their efficacy, and i believe more speech is always better than ‘meh’.

you can be angry at me - or be annoyed with me - or whatever it is - it does not matter - what matters is some people took the time to argue for justice.

i live every day looking for small triumphs - that build up to large progress. this is not just something i say here - i go out and do it - i do not apologize for it either. i dont claim to have the answers - but i am willing to stick my neck out pushing to find them.

409 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:01:06pm

re: #406 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

i suppose this is where you get to say ” you are terribly naive” and i get to say ” and you are terribly cynical” but i think neither is true and you know that as well as i.

410 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:02:19pm

re: #408 palmerskiss

i could outline several ways to get the house to initiate an inquiry - none of them will be to your liking - all are difficult at best, unlikely even. .

Then do it.

however, i never claimed to have easy answers - i told you expressly what my point was - and it worked. you also do not have to agree with me on that - but at least today - here - some justice was served? was it not? the victims - they were remembered = they were argued over, they are closer to a personal justice than before this discussion.

Today here no justice was served and pretending it is is just bizarre. They are no closer to personal justice.

you can hate those methods - i live by these methods. i stand by their efficacy, and i believe more speech is always better than ‘meh’.

False dichotoy.

you can be angry at me - or be annoyed with me - or whatever it is - it does not matter - what matters is some people took the time to argue for justice

Pretending you’re getting somewhere probably feels good.

i live every day looking for small triumphs - that build up to large progress. this is not just something i say here - i go out and do it - i do not apologize for it either. i dont claim to have the answers - but i am willing to stick my neck out pushing to find them

You don’t have a plan. No justice was served. We got no closer. And this has all seemed very, very self-indulgent on your part.

411 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:03:20pm

re: #410 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Then do it.

Today here no justice was served and pretending it is is just bizarre. They are no closer to personal justice.

False dichotoy.

Pretending you’re getting somewhere probably feels good.

You don’t have a plan. No justice was served. We got no closer. And this has all seemed very, very self-indulgent on your part.

that is your opinion - and that does appear very cynical

412 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:03:33pm

re: #409 palmerskiss

i suppose this is where you get to say ” you are terribly naive” and i get to say ” and you are terribly cynical” but i think neither is true and you know that as well as i.

I don’t know what naivete has to do with it. Until you actually unbend and explain some plan I can’t call it naive.

This idea of justice being served somehow just by talking is just nuts to me, as is the idea any progress was made.

413 Pie-onist Overlord  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:04:47pm

re: #303 palmerskiss

how do i do so to the exclusion of all others? i spend hours every day fighting injustice - actually out there fighting it - this is not something i am inconsistent on - i am extremely consistent - to a fault.

What’s your super power?

414 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:04:48pm

re: #412 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t know what naivete has to do with it. Until you actually unbend and explain some plan I can’t call it naive.

This idea of justice being served somehow just by talking is just nuts to me, as is the idea any progress was made.

as i pointed out - you disagree with me - i get it.

415 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:05:07pm

Hooray, we talked about Iraq again! That brings us closer (somehow, in a way that I can’t articulate, but I have plans, totally, I’m just not going to say them) to justice!

No, it doesn’t. It makes the people talking about it feel better, perhaps. It benefits the Iraqis not at all.

416 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:05:11pm

re: #413 Pie-onist Overlord

What’s your super power?

an earnest, sharp tongue.

417 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:05:26pm

re: #414 palmerskiss

as i pointed out - you disagree with me - i get it.

Please tell me one of your plans to get the house to initiate an inquiry.

418 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:07:34pm

re: #417 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Please tell me one of your plans to get the house to initiate an inquiry.

why - like i told you - they are unlikely and difficult - why would i outline something we both agree already is unlikely.

419 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:09:52pm

re: #418 palmerskiss

why - like i told you - they are unlikely and difficult - why would i outline something we both agree already is unlikely.

Because you are the one saying that I should share in your speech and your call for justice. So tell me what the plan is. I’ve fought for a lot of terribly unlikely plans. I was fighting for gay rights twenty years ago, when things looked pretty damn unlikely. I’m fighting for prisoner’s rights even now, and that’s a very unlikely battle to make forward progress on.

So tell me your plans to get a GOP controlled house and a GOP-filibusterable senate to initiate an inquiry into war crimes of a largely GOP administration during the Iraq war.

420 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:12:33pm

re: #419 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Because you are the one saying that I should share in your speech and your call for justice. So tell me what the plan is. I’ve fought for a lot of terribly unlikely plans. I was fighting for gay rights twenty years ago, when things looked pretty damn unlikely. I’m fighting for prisoner’s rights even now, and that’s a very unlikely battle to win.

So tell me your plans to get a GOP controlled house and a GOP-filibusterable senate to initiate an inquiry into war crimes of a largely GOP administration during the Iraq war.

i urged you to not ignore the context of chavez - i met my burden of my plan - the fact that you continued to argue with me over it was a surprising bonus.

i have consistently told you what my goal was here.

421 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:16:09pm

re: #416 palmerskiss

an earnest, sharp tongue.

Mine is the ability to instantly identify actors in heavy makeup in different roles, not by their names, but by the name of a character they’d previously played that my wife will remember.

I’d rather have X-Ray vision.
.//

422 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:17:23pm

re: #420 palmerskiss

i urged you to not ignore the context of chavez - i met my burden of my plan - the fact that you continued to argue with me over it was a surprising bonus.

i have consistently told you what my goal was here.

So tell me your plans to get a GOP controlled house and a GOP-filibusterable senate to initiate an inquiry into war crimes of a largely GOP administration during the Iraq war.

i urged you to not ignore the context of chavez - i met my burden of my plan - the fact that you continued to argue with me over it was a surprising bonus.

And stop it with the puppetmaster posts, they’re also annoyingly arrogant and make you look very internet. You also didn’t even engage with me about Chavez.

423 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:18:46pm

re: #421 GeneJockey

Mine is the ability to instantly identify actors in heavy makeup in different roles, not by their names, but by the name of a character they’d previously played that my wife will remember.

I’d rather have X-Ray vision.
.//

lol :)

424 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:20:49pm

re: #422 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So tell me your plans to get a GOP controlled house and a GOP-filibusterable senate to initiate an inquiry into war crimes of a largely GOP administration during the Iraq war.

And stop it with the puppetmaster posts, they’re also annoyingly arrogant and make you look very internet. You also didn’t even engage with me about Chavez.

i am going to quote myself - i met my goal - i got an argument about perspective:

palmerskiss
Wed, Mar 26, 2014 12:28:03pm replyquote
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re: #89 Gus

In some countries, most notably Venezuela, this vintage left-wing, anti-American fervor is not small, but is predominant, which is what has led that country to be under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Hugo Chavez, whose primary interest in attending this Latin American regional summit seems to be to lure Bush and the U.S. into some sort of game of childish taunts rather than doing something constructive to aid his impoverished, unstable country.

its interesting to note - that while the bridge from caracas to the airport fell down, limiting access to the airport, in America - katrina was destroying an entire u.s. city of a million or more people,.

Sure Venezuela and chavez were bad…. but they cant lay claim to new orleans…

some very valid and pointed perspective….

do try and not get stuck on moving the goal posts.

425 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:23:24pm

re: #422 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So tell me your plans to get a GOP controlled house and a GOP-filibusterable senate to initiate an inquiry into war crimes of a largely GOP administration during the Iraq war.

And stop it with the puppetmaster posts, they’re also annoyingly arrogant and make you look very internet. You also didn’t even engage with me about Chavez.

one more thing - that is not the first personal attack you have made in my direction today - so considering you are having trouble arguing from an impersonal nature - maybe we can continue this another day - when you can remove the personal dislike from your argument.

just a thought.

426 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:24:50pm

re: #424 palmerskiss

Those are your fucking goalposts, not mine.

Why on earth will you not explain your plan for the thing that you’re saying you want so badly? What the hell is the point of calling for justice if you’re just going to dodge that question?

You have no idea how badly you’ve disappointed me today.

427 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:26:31pm

re: #425 palmerskiss

Saying that “I got what I wanted from this conversation” posts are arrogant is not a personal attack. I’m saying that you should act better than that. It’s also incredibly self-defeating, as conversation goes.

428 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:27:00pm

re: #426 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Those are your fucking goalposts, not mine.

Why on earth will you not explain your plan for the thing that you’re saying you want so badly? What the hell is the point of calling for justice if you’re just going to dodge that question?

You have no idea how badly you’ve disappointed me today.

because it is pointless in reference to what this argument was about - perspective - i did not move the goalpoasts - you did = in search of an argument outside what my goal was.

i wanted some perspective - i got it. that is all. i met my burden. you needed to make it something else - i debated you fairly, i did not attack you personally - you have continually attacked me personally - and i brushed it off - but considering it is becoming your method - i think there isnt anywhere this can go - and maybe we can continue this later.

429 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:28:24pm

re: #427 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Saying that “I got what I wanted from this conversation” posts are arrogant is not a personal attack. I’m saying that you should act better than that. It’s also incredibly self-defeating, as conversation goes.

i asked for perspective - i got a discussion on exactly that .

and come on - i do not find your claim you have not made personal attacks credulous.

430 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:30:00pm

look obdi - take a break - i am going to also - maybe when you read your comments later you will see where i am coming from - and maybe not.

anyhow - i am telling you that right now it appears to be personal - so what harm can suspending this for a bit do?

431 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:32:34pm

re: #430 palmerskiss

look obdi - take a break - i am going to also - maybe when you read your comments later you will see where i am coming from - and maybe not.

anyhow - i am telling you that right now it appears to be personal - so what harm can suspending this for a bit do?

Nope. You’re just running away from a direct question, and I’m not going to change my opinion on that being really shitty behavior on your part.

You called for people to stand up for justice for Iraq, but when it comes down to it, you won’t actually say what it is you want people to do, what plan you want them to join in on. The best you have is a milksop idea that just talking about the Iraq war gets us closer to justice or does fuck-all for its victims, an idea I find just ludicrous and self-congratulatory.

I’m afraid this exchange is going to have permanently altered my opinion of you, much for the negative.

432 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:35:08pm

re: #431 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Nope. You’re just running away from a direct question, and I’m not going to change my opinion on that being really shitty behavior on your part.

You called for people to stand up for justice for Iraq, but when it comes down to it, you won’t actually say what it is you want people to do, what plan you want them to join in on. The best you have is a milksop idea that just talking about the Iraq war gets us closer to justice or does fuck-all for its victims, an idea I find just ludicrous and self-congratulatory.

I’m afraid this exchange is going to have permanently altered my opinion of you, much for the negative.

i am not running away - i already told you - we both agree that plan is unlikely - there is no argument - you dont need that argument - but its yours anyways - it is unlikely- i do not disagree.

and yes obdi - you have made a point to make attacks personal - you may not see it now - and i am not in a mood to repost it - im not looking to rub anything in - i want to re-continue this at a later date when maybe that will have subsided.

i am being very fair with you

433 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:36:50pm

re: #432 palmerskiss

i am not running away - i already told you - we both agree that plan is unlikely - there is no argument - you dont need that argument - but its yours anyways - it is unlikely- i do not disagree.

I want you to state that plan. You’re refusing to, after going on and on and on about how important it is to do this, to stand up for justice for Iraq. This is infuriating, baffling, and risible.

and yes obdi - you have made a point to make attacks personal - you may not see it now - and i am not in a mood to repost it - im not looking to rub anything in - i want to re-continue this at a later date when maybe that will have subsided.

And I am warning you that, if anything, my opinion of you will go down after I reread this later. I’m a person who knows myself pretty well.

434 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:39:15pm

re: #433 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I want you to state that plan. You’re refusing to, after going on and on and on about how important it is to do this, to stand up for justice for Iraq. This is infuriating, baffling, and risible.

And I am warning you that, if anything, my opinion of you will go down after I reread this later. I’m a person who knows myself pretty well.

i could care less what your opinion of me is - i am speaking about your comments - anyways.

i have been more than fair with you. i will re-discuss this with you at any point after two hours from now…

that is what i have told you i will do - and i will do it. we all get personally involved sometimes - it happens. - i am not - so for right now - i am done - catch me later.

435 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:47:56pm

re: #434 palmerskiss

In two hours, are you going to tell me your plan? Or is that going to remain an eternal mystery?

436 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:54:19pm

re: #435 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

In two hours, are you going to tell me your plan? Or is that going to remain an eternal mystery?

in two hours i’ll tell you every plan and every fantasy i have… i keep my word. i’ll even cut out the elliptical whoring just so you know i am sincere.

437 BrainSurfer  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:55:32pm

re: #434 palmerskiss

Who the hell’s “Palmer?” I think his Kiss has put you into Hello Kitty land.

Hate to think what your opinions on the Vietnam War would be.

438 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:56:54pm

re: #437 BrainSurfer

Who the hell’s “Palmer?” I think his Kiss has put you into Hello Kitty land.

Hate to think what your opinions on the Vietnam War would be.

you want me to show you the allusion?

439 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:57:17pm

re: #436 palmerskiss

in two hours i’ll tell you every plan and every fantasy i have… i keep my word. i’ll even cut out the elliptical whoring just so you know i am sincere.

Great. No clue why you couldn’t just do that now, or a half hour ago, but in two hours I’ll expect to see an actual plan for getting the GOP-controlled house and GOP-filibusterable senate to agree to an inquiry on the GOP-led invasion of Iraq without trading them anything.

440 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 3:59:39pm

re: #439 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Great. No clue why you couldn’t just do that now, or a half hour ago, but in two hours I’ll expect to see an actual plan for getting the GOP-controlled house and GOP-filibusterable senate to agree to an inquiry on the GOP-led invasion of Iraq without trading them anything.

why is this plan so important to you? i get you want me to post it so you can rip it to shreds and claim victory - but i already gave you your argument - that it is unlikely. so why this burning need? i conceded your point

441 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:01:54pm

re: #437 BrainSurfer

Are you a fan of Darrell Issa?

442 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:02:40pm

re: #439 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Great. No clue why you couldn’t just do that now, or a half hour ago, but in two hours I’ll expect to see an actual plan for getting the GOP-controlled house and GOP-filibusterable senate to agree to an inquiry on the GOP-led invasion of Iraq without trading them anything.

It is a bit amusing to try to think of what the Democrats could put on the table to make the GOP even consider a congressional Iraq War inquiry.

For starters, repeal of social security and medicare would need to be offered, but that’s probably not enough. Repeal of the 14th amendment and a promise to not run any (D) candidates for thirty years might be enough, if coupled with the simultaneous resignation of Obama and Biden, and Obama signing a confession to any list of charges the GOP cares to draw up.

443 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:04:10pm

re: #440 palmerskiss

why is this plan so important to you?

Why isn’t it important to you? You say you want justice for Iraq, and yet you’re running away from actually talking about your plan, however unlikely and hard, to get that justice for Iraq.

It’s important to me because you saw fit to castigate people here for not thinking about and talking about Iraq, and yet when asked what you actually want to achieve by doing that, you won’t actually say.

i get you want me to post it so you can rip it to shreds and claim victory -

Stop this kind of arrogant psychology via TCP/IP posting. It is only annoying. If your plan is one that is merely very difficult to achieve, I’ll have no problems with it.

but i already gave you your argument - that it is unlikely. so why this burning need? i conceded your point

Did you just skip right by the post where I talked about how I have fought for, and fight for, unlikely causes? I don’t care if it’s unlikely, unless we’re talking about “Write letters to the GOP senators making them feel real bad” unlikely, which is more just ‘fantasy’.

444 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:04:33pm

re: #442 EPR-radar

It is a bit amusing to try to think of what the Democrats could put on the table to make the GOP even consider a congressional Iraq War inquiry.

For starters, repeal of social security and medicare would need to be offered, but that’s probably not enough. Repeal of the 14th amendment and a promise to not run any (D) candidates for thirty years might be enough, if coupled with the simultaneous resignation of Obama and Biden, and Obama signing a confession to any list of charges the GOP cares to draw up.

there are other sacrifices you could make for justice - you could not vote for hillary - of course that would sacrifice the election.

i am not advocating any kind of trade for justice.

445 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:05:37pm

re: #429 palmerskiss

Shorter palmerskiss: “Oh, poor, persecuted me!” Passive aggressive BS.

446 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:09:42pm

re: #444 palmerskiss

there are other sacrifices you could make for justice - you could not vote for hillary - of course that would sacrifice the election.

i am not advocating any kind of trade for justice.

If Hillary Clinton is the (D) nominee in 2016, I will vote for her without taking even a microsecond to consider her involvement in the Iraq boondoggle.

Voting third party or (R) will not help with anything relating to Iraq, and more importantly will tend to encourage a repeat performance by the GOP foreign policy clown show.

447 BrainSurfer  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:09:45pm

re: #438 palmerskiss

No

448 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:10:28pm

Did you just skip right by the post where I talked about how I have fought for, and fight for, unlikely causes? I don’t care if it’s unlikely, unless we’re talking about “Write letters to the GOP senators making them feel real bad” unlikely, which is more just ‘fantasy’.

no - you must have missed my response.

Why isn’t it important to you? You say you want justice for Iraq, and yet you’re running away from actually talking about your plan, however unlikely and hard, to get that justice for Iraq.

again - my point was to add perspective - nothing more - that was my goal here. i said it many times throughout the discussion - i was ignored. it has not changed. i got a long debate on perspective - this is not hard to understand - i got what i wanted. my long term personal plan to get justice for iraq is not really relevant to the idea of perspective on venezuala and the u.s - you are hinging your argument on it - but it is not my argument.

It’s important to me because you saw fit to castigate people here for not thinking about and talking about Iraq, and yet when asked what you actually want to achieve by doing that, you won’t actually say.

castigate? no - i applied perspective - i shared our blame equally - i accepted my share.

i suggested we remember the perspective on our own nations actions. what are you not getting here?

Stop this kind of arrogant psychology via TCP/IP posting. It is only annoying. If your plan is one that is merely very difficult to achieve, I’ll have no problems with it.

please - i told you from the beginning - you continue to ignore it - i wanted perspective. i got a debate about perspective. that is not arrogant - that is the reality of the situation.

you have this whole other argument - you are having it with yourself - my personal plan is irrelevant. once again - this was a debate about perspective. that is all.

449 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:10:48pm

re: #446 EPR-radar

If Hillary Clinton is the (D) nominee in 2016, I will vote for her without taking even a microsecond to consider her involvement in the Iraq boondoggle.

Voting third party or (R) will not help with anything relating to Iraq, and more importantly will tend to encourage a repeat performance by the GOP foreign policy clown show.

agreed.

450 GeneJockey  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:12:31pm

re: #446 EPR-radar

If Hillary Clinton is the (D) nominee in 2016, I will vote for her without taking even a microsecond to consider her involvement in the Iraq boondoggle.

Voting third party or (R) will not help with anything relating to Iraq, and more importantly will tend to encourage a repeat performance by the GOP foreign policy clown show.

But Rand Paul says he’d make pot legal and he doesn’t like the NSA!

451 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:13:00pm

re: #450 GeneJockey

But Rand Paul says he’d make pot legal and he doesn’t like the NSA!

RAND PAUL; PROGRESSIVE.
XD

452 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:13:15pm

re: #450 GeneJockey

But Rand Paul says he’d make pot legal and he doesn’t like the NSA!

aha the fratboy plank.

453 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:14:19pm

re: #452 palmerskiss

aha the fratboy plank.

Dave’s not here man.

454 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:14:32pm

re: #445 Dark_Falcon

Shorter palmerskiss: “Oh, poor, persecuted me!” Passive aggressive BS.

hmmm - and yet - you couch your criticism in a personal attack.

ironic? maybe that escaped you

455 BrainSurfer  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:14:42pm

re: #441 wrenchwench

Are you a fan of Darrell Issa?

Uh, what? That really came out of left field.

To answer your question, I am not really a “fan” of anyone in Congress. Best to say I dislike some more than others, a few very much more. Anyone who tells the truth and acts on principles on either side has my support.

456 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:15:25pm

re: #455 BrainSurfer

Uh, what? That really came out of left field.

To answer your question, I am not really a “fan” of anyone in Congress. Best to say I dislike some more than others, a few very much more. Anyone who tells the truth and acts on principles on either side has my support.

so you are not really anti-issa either - i could assume from that?

457 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:16:19pm

458 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:21:33pm

re: #448 palmerskiss

no - you must have missed my response.

again - my point was to add perspective - nothing more - that was my goal here. i said it many times throughout the discussion - i was ignored.

So the many times you said people should stand up for justice in Iraq—you didn’t mean that? When you said that justice for Iraq was important, and people should speak out for it and agitate for it, you didn’t mean that? That wasn’t a point you were making?

And why on earth, still, do you not get that people here accept that the US fucked up royally in the Iraq war, that we already have that perspective? Where the hell do you think you’re coming from, that that’s some sort of revelation to people here?

Yeah, Chavez didn’t invade Iraq and cause a ton of deaths. He did, however, undermine democratic institutions in his own country and use raw populist politics to increase the tension and divisions in his society, while holding onto such a great amount of power that when he died, his successor took his authoritarianism even farther. Bush, on the other hand, assholic as he was, peacefully left office after two terms, handing power over to the opposition.

THere is no simplistic comparison to be made, not between Bush and CHavez, not between the US and Russia, nor that the best metric for determining a good actor is “caused fewer deaths”.

castigate? no - i applied perspective - i shared our blame equally - i accepted my share.

Right there is the holier-than-thou attitude that is so annoying.

i suggested we remember the perspective on our own nations actions. what are you not getting here?

What I have been asking: so what. We have that perspective—the US has an immense, long, and dirty history of interference in other states, from sponsoring right-wing death squads to actually invading places. What relevance does that have to analyzing the actions of other states?

please - i told you from the beginning - you continue to ignore it - i wanted perspective. i got a debate about perspective. that is not arrogant - that is the reality of the situation.

you have this whole other argument - you are having it with yourself - my personal plan is irrelevant. once again - this was a debate about perspective. that is all.

You are not the only person in this conversation. You don’t get to set the boundaries of it, or what the debate is. You especially don’t get to come up with this ‘justice for Iraq’ bit and then drop it like it’s not important to you.

459 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:21:42pm

re: #457 Varek Raith

[Embedded image]

took me a second - but once i got it - it got a chuckle.

460 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:22:20pm

re: #455 BrainSurfer

Uh, what? That really came out of left field.

To answer your question, I am not really a “fan” of anyone in Congress. Best to say I dislike some more than others, a few very much more. Anyone who tells the truth and acts on principles on either side has my support.

Just wondering why the downding on #38.

461 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:26:38pm
So the many times you said people should stand up for justice in Iraq—you didn’t mean that? When you said that justice for Iraq was important, and people should speak out for it and agitate for it, you didn’t mean that? That wasn’t a point you were making?

no - both realities can exist obdi - i can believe people should stand up and i can believe the discussion on chavez deserved some context and perspective.

You are not the only person in this conversation. You don’t get to set the boundaries of it, or what the debate is. You especially don’t get to come up with this ‘justice for Iraq’ bit and then drop it like it’s not important to you.

that is fine - however - this was a debate over my providing of context - that is what this debate was over. you decided to ply it out to logical conclusions - fine - but this was about my opinion of context.

And why on earth, still, do you not get that people here accept that the US fucked up royally in the Iraq war, that we already have that perspective? Where the hell do you think you’re coming from, that that’s some sort of revelation to people here?

one i never made that broad an assertion - and you cannot quote it - lets chalk that up to an assumption - i clearly stated over and over again when it was mentioned i agree - want me to quote it?

THere is no simplistic comparison to be made, not between Bush and CHavez, not between the US and Russia, nor that the best metric for determining a good actor is “caused fewer deaths”.

i never claimed it was simplistic -i quite clearly gave it nuance - i stated there was context and perspective to be had. the opposite argument is that there is no context and perspective. i disagree - fine.

462 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:30:12pm

re: #461 palmerskiss

no - both realities can exist obdi - i can believe people should stand up and i can believe the discussion on chavez deserved some context and perspective.
.

Right. They were both your points.

one i never made that broad an assertion - and you cannot quote it - lets chalk that up to an assumption - i clearly stated over and over again when it was mentioned i agree - want me to quote it?

So you don’t actually think you needed to say anything about having perspective, people here already had a good perspective on the Iraq war? You weren’t actually trying to bring perspective?

i never claimed it was simplistic -i quite clearly gave it nuance - i stated there was context and perspective to be had. the opposite argument is that there is no context and perspective. i disagree - fine

You didn’t give it nuance, at all. And you further stripped things of nuance when you said that dead bodies were the metric you were going by.

Why are you still talking? Is the actually telling the plan in two hours thing off, now? Will you just tell me the plan at this point?

463 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:33:59pm
So you don’t actually think you needed to say anything about having perspective, people here already had a good perspective on the Iraq war? You weren’t actually trying to bring perspective?

i thought that particular discussion on chavez deserved some perspective - there was no broad assertion in that - there were no broad claims - i merely pointed out the context.

”
You didn’t give it nuance, at all. And you further stripped things of nuance when you said that dead bodies were the metric you were going by.”

if you had read correctly - the assertion was - dead bodies in relation to international foreign policy is the metric. that metric is narrow - and allows for context. and there is a debate that can be made as far as body toll is concerned whether or not a foreign policy is good or bad,

Why are you still talking? Is the actually telling the plan in two hours thing off, now? Will you just tell me the plan at this point?<

because i am polite and fair.

464 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:41:05pm

one plan i could suggest is working journalists to ask the questions of important politicians in relation to iraqi justice. because public questions once in the sphere require answers - they beg answers and they spawn debate.

this is a difficult plan yes - but it is not impossible. you can argue whether it is worth attempting, and i will have that debate with you. but this is not really relevant to the point i was making when i commented. i do believe that argument has run its course.

465 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:41:16pm

re: #463 palmerskiss

i thought that particular discussion on chavez deserved some perspective - there was no broad assertion in that - there were no broad claims - i merely pointed out the context.

You didn’t point out ‘the context’. You just said:

also, while chavez was undeniably a bad leader, he never led his country into aggressive warfare invading other countries without provocation and leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths

more of that pointed perspective.

That’s not ‘the context’. That is one very particular, very small slice of context.

if you had read correctly - the assertion was - dead bodies in relation to international foreign policy is the metric. that metric is narrow - and allows for context. and there is a debate that can be made as far as body toll is concerned whether or not a foreign policy is good or bad,

That metric being narrow means it excludes context. For example, it excludes the context of lives saved by the US during that time period.

because i am polite and fair.

How is polite and/or fair to say that you’re going to stop talking for two hours and then continue talking?

How is it polite or fair to not just fucking go ahead and tell me the plan you have to get the GOP-led house blah blah blah to initiate an inquiry into the Iraq war, if you are going to continue talking?

466 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:43:30pm

re: #464 palmerskiss

one plan i could suggest is working journalists to ask the questions of important politicians in relation to iraqi justice. because public questions once in the sphere require answers - they beg answers and they spawn debate.

Many, many questions have been asked by journalists on this front. These days, the media is generally fucking useless, but a lot of people have asked those questions. So, the bad news is we’ve already tried that plan.

this is a difficult plan yes - but it is not impossible. you can argue whether it is worth attempting, and i will have that debate with you. but this is not really relevant to the point i was making when i commented. i do believe that argument has run its course.

That is not a plan to get the GOP-led house to initiate an inquiry. Do you have a plan for how to achieve that?

467 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:43:50pm
How is polite and/or fair to say that you’re going to stop talking for two hours and then continue talking?

because you asked me questions and i answered you - i answered your points, i did not run you off or swat you with ad hom attacks, i debated you - i gave you the time and energy and i was polite and direct and fair.

That’s not ‘the context’. That is one very particular, very small slice of context.

fine - i added a narrow context.

468 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:45:21pm

re: #466 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Many, many questions have been asked by journalists on this front. These days, the media is generally fucking useless, but a lot of people have asked those questions. So, the bad news is we’ve already tried that plan.

That is not a plan to get the GOP-led house to initiate an inquiry. Do you have a plan for how to achieve that?

i gave you a plan - i agreed with you it is difficult - there is no disagreement unless you’d like to suggest it is impossible.

469 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:45:45pm

re: #467 palmerskiss

because you asked me questions and i answered you - i answered your points, i did not run you off or swat you with ad hom attacks, i debated you - i gave you the time and energy and i was polite and direct and fair..

You were not direct, no. You were evasive in the extreme. You also repeatedly have accused me of having motives in one direction or another which were false, which is not polite.

fine - i added a narrow context.

Which was my point, to you, long ago—that simply counting bodies, simply saying “Well, this dude didn’t invade anywhere”, is pointless. Bush didn’t promote a eugenics program, unlike Scandinavia in the 1960s. Teddy Roosevelt didn’t start any wars. This isn’t context, it’s just factoids.

470 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:46:35pm

re: #468 palmerskiss

i gave you a plan - i agreed with you it is difficult - there is no disagreement unless you’d like to suggest it is impossible.

That is not a plan to make the GOP-controlled house initiate an inquiry, no. Can you explain how getting journalists to ask questions about justice in Iraq—questions that have been asked repeatedly by, for example, Mother Jones—is supposed to lead to a the House GOP being okay with an inquiry into the Iraqi invasion?

471 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:47:05pm

You were not direct, no. You were evasive in the extreme. You also repeatedly have accused me of having motives in one direction or another which were false, which is not polite.

i do believe i accused you of being personally involved (in the argument)- which was rather polite.

472 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:49:39pm

re: #471 palmerskiss

i do believe i accused you of being personally involved - which was rather polite.

You also accused me of just wanting to hear your plan so I could tear it apart—I’m still waiting to hear a plan, but I have no problem at all with the general idea of getting journalists to ask questions about Iraq, except that it already has happened and so isn’t so much a plan as something that already happened.

You claimed I ’ you threw the ethical high ground argument at me’, you claimed I was uncomfortable talking about the Iraq war, which is such a silly accusation it made me laugh but it was still not ‘polite’.

473 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:49:54pm

re: #470 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That is not a plan to make the GOP-controlled house initiate an inquiry, no. Can you explain how getting journalists to ask questions about justice in Iraq—questions that have been asked repeatedly by, for example, Mother Jones—is supposed to lead to a GOP-led inquiry on the Iraqi invasion?

mother jones is not the american sphere. no no - you get fox news to ask it - now we are talking.

474 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:50:47pm

re: #472 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You also accused me of just wanting to hear your plan so I could tear it apart—I’m still waiting to hear a plan, but I have no problem at all with the general idea of getting journalists to ask questions about Iraq, except that it already has happened and so isn’t so much a plan as something that already happened.

You claimed I ’ you threw the ethical high ground argument at me’, you claimed I was uncomfortable talking about the Iraq war, which is such a silly accusation it made me laugh but it was still not ‘polite’.

you do want to tear it apart do you not? this fascination with this tangent is about winning this debate yes? i told you - none of this matters to me.

475 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:53:06pm
you claimed I was uncomfortable talking about the Iraq war, which is such a silly accusation it made me laugh but it was still not ‘polite’.

i apologize for that. next time i will find a more refined way of handling it.

476 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:55:05pm

re: #473 palmerskiss

mother jones is not the american sphere. no no - you get fox news to ask it - now we are talking.

Okay. Can you tell me your plan for getting Fox news to ask it? This is getting ridiculous—every ‘plan’ you have is just another hand-waving, requiring a new plan to make it happen.

Let me give you an example. Our prison system is a horrible, racist, unfair mess. It’s not just the for-profit angle, but also stuff like the prison guard union in California that’s making it shitty. I am attempting to enact prison reform in two ways: First of all, by working with a prisoner’s advocacy program that goes and speaks to political groups about how hard life is for excons and asks them to fund halfway houses and other such things, and I bring citizen groups to meet with state senators and representatives about rehabilitative care inside prisons.

Second, I also advocate for diversion programs, midnight basketball, and other things that can help break the horrific prison cycle, and campaign and work for candidates who advocate those measures and have the political know-how to follow through on that.

I do not attempt to get the GOP-led house to do something about it by getting reporters to ask questions about the prison system, because that’s not an actual path: these questions do get asked, reports get written, specials get done, and yet things don’t change. In order for this to work, the entirety of US media would have to be changed.

477 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:56:37pm

re: #474 palmerskiss

you do want to tear it apart do you not? this fascination with this tangent is about winning this debate yes? i told you - none of this matters to me.

No, it’s not about winning the debate. I am being completely honest and only trying to communicate with you. I completely believe that you are also trying to communicate, not just trying to win the debate. Why you can’t extend me the same courtesy I have no idea.

I also do not understand how you can say the ‘tangent’ about justice for the Iraq war—an issue you were very adamant and passionate about—doesn’t matter to you.

478 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:58:38pm

re: #475 palmerskiss

i apologize for that. next time i will find a more refined way of handling it.

It’s not about being refined, it’s about the bizarre assumption that I—or anyone else here—is uncomfortable in talking about the Iraq war.

479 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:58:41pm

re: #476 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay. Can you tell me your plan for getting Fox news to ask it? This is getting ridiculous—every ‘plan’ you have is just another hand-waving, requiring a new plan to make it happen.

really you could not invision a manner in which a fox news personality asks - say a hillary clinton uncomfortable questions on iraq? say that wall street nutter from the five? he’d ask that question, in support of a rand paul or rafa cruz? you could get glenn beck to ask that question, the judge, he’d ask, u do not see how that could happen?

480 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 4:59:55pm

re: #478 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s not about being refined, it’s about the bizarre assumption that I—or anyone else here—is uncomfortable in talking about the Iraq war.

no? i was called ugly, did you miss that? not by you, however, - that assumption some people got uncomfortable was not out of left field.

481 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:01:12pm

re: #479 palmerskiss

really you could not invision a manner in which a fox news personality asks - say a hillary clinton uncomfortable questions on iraq?

I can’t imagine them asking the honest questions I assume you want, no. I can imagine them asking “Didn’t you support the Iraq war?” I don’t get how that’s supposed to lead to an inquiry into the Iraq war in the House and Senate—can you explain?

say a hillary clinton uncomfortable questions on iraq? say that wall street nutter from the five? he’d ask that question, in support of a rand paul or rafa cruz? you could get glenn beck to ask that question, the judge, he’d ask, u do not see how that could happen?

Is this self-parody? Your plan is to get Glenn Beck to ask Hilary Clinton questions about Iraq?

482 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:02:47pm

re: #477 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, it’s not about winning the debate. I am being completely honest and only trying to communicate with you. I completely believe that you are also trying to communicate, not just trying to win the debate. Why you can’t extend me the same courtesy I have no idea.

I also do not understand how you can say the ‘tangent’ about justice for the Iraq war—an issue you were very adamant and passionate about—doesn’t matter to you.

i did not say it does not matter to me - i said - it very dearly matters to me - however, my intention was to get my opinion on the context of our own short givings in relation to how we see the world on the record. that was my aim. i was not here to recruit you to my cause of guerrilla justice. i was just making a point on the record that i. do not discount my own culpability in a democracy and the issues that go with it, nor will i discount yours.

483 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:03:13pm

re: #480 palmerskiss

no? i was called ugly, did you miss that? not by you, however, - that assumption some people got uncomfortable was not out of left field.

The assumption that I was uncomfortable came entirely from your own invention. The ‘ugly’ comment was a quote from Army of Darkness and was not, in fact, someone calling you ugly. You shouldn’t jump to the assumptions you keep doing—that I just want to win the argument, that I’m not being honest—and if you do, you should definitely not make claims to being ‘polite’.

484 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:03:40pm

re: #481 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I can’t imagine them asking the honest questions I assume you want, no. I can imagine them asking “Didn’t you support the Iraq war?” I don’t get how that’s supposed to lead to an inquiry into the Iraq war in the House and Senate—can you explain?

Is this self-parody? Your plan is to get Glenn Beck to ask Hilary Clinton questions about Iraq?

maybe it is a bit naive to think iraq related questions will not pop up on the loony paulian right?

485 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:04:32pm

re: #483 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The assumption that I was uncomfortable came entirely from your own invention. The ‘ugly’ comment was a quote from Army of Darkness and was not, in fact, someone calling you ugly. You shouldn’t jump to the assumptions you keep doing—that I just want to win the argument, that I’m not being honest—and if you do, you should definitely not make claims to being ‘polite’.

ok so why this need to see my personal plans to push for justice for iraq?

486 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:05:41pm

re: #482 palmerskiss

i did not say it does not matter to me

let me quote you:

you do want to tear it apart do you not? this fascination with this tangent is about winning this debate yes? i told you - none of this matters to me.

*

however, my intention was to get my opinion on the context of our own short givings in relation to how we see the world on the record. that was my aim. i was not here to recruit you to my cause of guerrilla justice. i was just making a point on the record that i. do not discount my own culpability in a democracy and the issues that go with it, nor will i discount yours.

What the hell are you talking about with ‘guerilla justice’? A congressional inquiry isn’t ‘guerrilla justice’.

And as to your fascination with group blame and guilt, again: What’s the point?

487 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:07:19pm

re: #484 palmerskiss

maybe it is a bit naive to think iraq related questions will not pop up on the loony paulian right?

But that’s your plan? For the loony Paulian right to ask questions on Iraq?

That’ll lead to a congressional inquiry on Iraq? And you think those questions are worthwhile to ask, the kind the loony right will ask?

re: #485 palmerskiss

ok so why this need to see my personal plans to push for justice for iraq?

Because you were talking about how important it is! How is this baffling to you? You talked about how important it is to get justice for Iraq, over and over, how can it be a fucking bafflement to you that this is a question you get asked?

If I say “Prison reform is hugely important!” I would expect—and, goddamn welcome—people asking “Okay, what’s your plan?”

488 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:08:08pm

re: #486 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

let me quote you:

*

What the hell are you talking about with ‘guerilla justice’? A congressional inquiry isn’t ‘guerrilla justice’.

And as to your fascination with group blame and guilt, again: What’s the point?

maybe you do not know what i do. however, that was a joke at its expense.

yes - what does not matter to me is winning this debate with you - i am not here to win - i concede your point this is difficult.

489 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:10:52pm

re: #488 palmerskiss

maybe you do not know what i do. however, that was a joke at its expense.

yes - what does not matter to me is winning this debate with you - i am not here to win - i concede your point this is difficult.

My point wasn’t that this is difficult. My point is that you don’t, actually, have a plan, and the non-plan you have involves Glenn Beck.

Seriously, take some time and think about this for awhile. You’re now at the state where for some reason you’re advocating that Glenn Beck and the lunatic right ask Hilary Clinton questions about the Iraq war, and you think this will somehow lead to justice for Iraq, or an inquiry into it, or something.

Glenn Beck.

490 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:13:23pm

re: #489 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

My point wasn’t that this is difficult. My point is that you don’t, actually, have a plan, and the non-plan you have involves Glenn Beck.

Seriously, take some time and think about this for awhile. You’re now at the state where for some reason you’re advocating that Glenn Beck and the lunatic right ask Hilary Clinton questions about the Iraq war, and you think this will somehow lead to justice for Iraq, or an inquiry into it, or something.

Glenn Beck.

i told you it was a plan. obdi - i am not some green person who does not know how change and debate happen. i am actively engaged every day in trying to force change. it is a plan not beyond the realm of possibility. i already concede it is unlikely. where exactly do you want to take this debate?

491 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:16:48pm

re: #490 palmerskiss

i told you it was a plan. obdi -

But it’s not. It’s not just unlikely, it’s just not a plan. There’s nothing about it that could possibly lead to justice for Iraq.

i am not some green person who does not know how change and debate happen.

I’m sorry, but your plan involves Glenn Beck. That is beyond green.

i am actively engaged every day in trying to force change. it is a plan not beyond the realm of impossibility. i already concede it is unlikely. where exactly do you want to take this debate?

You can drop this any time. You explained your lack of a plan—this is what you’re calling for, for justice for Iraq, is somehow a hope that Ron Paul idiots and Glenn Beck ask Hillary Clinton uncomfortable (and, given who they are, untruthful) questions about Iraq.

That would not serve justice, it would not promote an inquiry into the Iraq war, it is not a plan to get the GOP-led house to launch an inquiry. I have no idea how you have managed to convince yourself that it would.

Glenn Beck.

492 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:18:01pm

re: #491 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But it’s not. It’s not just unlikely, it’s just not a plan. There’s nothing about it that could possibly lead to justice for Iraq.

I’m sorry, but your plan involves Glenn Beck. That is beyond green.

You can drop this any time. You explained your lack of a plan—this is what you’re calling for, for justice for Iraq, is somehow a hope that Ron Paul idiots and Glenn Beck as Hilary Clinton uncomfortable (and, given who they are, untruthful) questions about Iraq.

That would not serve justice, it would not promote an inquiry into the Iraq war, it is not a plan to get the GOP-led house to launch an inquiry. I have no idea how you have managed to convince yourself that it would.

Glenn Beck.

really - if the gop nominate a rand paul - you think iraq will not be part of the debate?

who is green?

493 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:21:06pm

re: #492 palmerskiss

really - if the gop nominate a rand paul - you think iraq will not be part of the debate?

who is green?

I think Iraq will be part of the debate. I don’t think it will be an honest part, nor do I think it will lead to an inquiry on the Iraq war, which is what we were talking about. I certainly think that it might lead to a revisionist history that removes a lot of culpability from the GOP propagandists and spreads more of it around onto the Democrats—that’s entirely possible.

Is that what you’d consider a positive step, or justice for Iraq? Rand Paul nominated for president, grilling Hilary Clinton about her support for the Iraq invasion?

Would you also want Rand Paul to win that election? Because if he lost, wouldn’t that—even if you think the questions he asked were legitimate—actually work to invalidate those questions?

494 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:23:46pm

re: #493 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I think Iraq will be part of the debate. I don’t think it will be an honest part, nor do I think it will lead to an inquiry on the Iraq war, which is what we were talking about. I certainly think that it might lead to a revisionist history that removes a lot of culpability from the GOP propagandists and spreads more of it around onto the Democrats—that’s entirely possible.

Is that what you’d consider a positive step, or justice for Iraq? Rand Paul nominated for president, grilling Hilary Clinton about her support for the Iraq invasion?

Would you also want Rand Paul to win that election?

i agree with you 100% - it will be dishonest - that is where people like you and i come in - and our public pressure. however, if there is a debate on iraq - that again is one step closer. this is not impossible -it is difficult - but would you urge me not to attempt to have that discussion - to bring any power i have to bear to try? what is worthless and what has virtue… fighting with your mind and your words and your actions - it does mean something.

rand paul? is that your impression of me?

495 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:26:27pm

re: #494 palmerskiss

i agree with you 100% - it will be dishonest - that is where people like you and i come in - and our public pressure.

More hand-waving. Make that clear: How do you and I affect these presidential debates, and Glenn Beck, and make it more honest?

however, if there is a debate on iraq - that again is one step closer.

How? This is assertion on your part. How is having Rand Paul and Glenn Beck engage in revisionist history about Iraq ‘one step closer’? Closer to what?

this is not impossible -it is difficult - but would you urge me not to attempt to have that discussion - to bring any power i have to bear to try? what is worthless and what has virtue… fighting with your mind and your words and your actions - it does mean something.

What is the point of the discussion?

rand paul? is that your impression of me?

If Rand Paul attacks Hillary over Iraq, and then is defeated by her, do you not get that that actually would constitute a rejection of that attack, a diminishing of the conversation on Iraq?

My impression of you was of someone smart enough to know that any plan that involves Glenn Beck and Rand Paul leading a charge is a fucking awful plan.

496 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:31:07pm
More hand-waving. Make that clear: How do you and I affect these presidential debates, and Glenn Beck, and make it more honest?

many people, not just myself, have managed to turn the debate on many issues. that is more a lack of imagination than anything else.

How? This is assertion on your part. How is having Rand Paul and Glenn Beck engage in revisionist history about Iraq ‘one step closer’? Closer to what?

the point here is to stir a national debate that affects politics on the issue of the iraq war yes? you keep asserting it is difficult - i agree - but that does not make it worthless - i attempt many things that do not work - and many do work - but at least i am doing it. i could sit at home and resign myself to ‘meh’ but that is not me.

497 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:31:33pm

There are so many people who have commited so many crimes—state crimes—that will never be punished. There are police captains who have condoned torture, there are prosecutors who have knowingly sent people to jail. There are politicians who have made backroom deals to allow poisonous chemicals to be dumped into our water. There is an entire climate-denial industry who are horrible, contemptible villains, and they’re not going to suffer for it. There will be no justice on these and many other fronts.

The world is so goddamn imperfect, so much evil flourishes. A crusade against one particular evil in the past, a crusade you’re engaging in to the extent of thinking Glenn Beck can be useful, is a backwards-facing endeavor. If you want something like the Iraq war to not happen again, the path to that doesn’t come through getting Rand Paul to wave his isolationist flag.

Look to the future and not the past. Or at least come up with a plan that’s not a self-parody involving Rand Paul, Glenn Beck, and Fox News attacking Hillary clinton on Iraq.

498 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:34:14pm

re: #496 palmerskiss

many people, not just myself, have managed to turn the debate on many issues. that is more a lack of imagination than anything else.

More handwaving. How would you do it?

the point here is to stir a national debate that affects politics on the issue of the iraq war yes?

No. First of all, as I’ve repeatedly said, we have had, and continue to have, a national debate on the politics of the Iraq war. We had it before it, we had it during it, and we’re having it after it. I have no idea why you think that the debate hasn’t, and doesn’t exist. SEcond of all, what I asked for, repeatedly, was a way to get the GOP-led house and GOP-filbisuterable senate to go along with an inquiry into Iraq. That’s what you said you had a plan for.

you keep asserting it is difficult

No, I don’t. I’m asserting your plan not only makes no real sense, it would actively damage any hopes of improving the debate on Iraq. Why are you claiming I’m asserting it is difficult?

i could sit at home and resign myself to ‘meh’ but that is not me.

So what are you doing to get Glenn Beck to ask Hillary Clinton questions, or to get Rand Paul to be the GOP nominee?

499 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:36:31pm

re: #497 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

There are so many people who have commited so many crimes—state crimes—that will never be punished. There are police captains who have condoned torture, there are prosecutors who have knowingly sent people to jail. There are politicians who have made backroom deals to allow poisonous chemicals to be dumped into our water. There is an entire climate-denial industry who are horrible, contemptible villains, and they’re not going to suffer for it. There will be no justice on these and many other fronts.

The world is so goddamn imperfect, so much evil flourishes. A crusade against one particular evil in the past, a crusade you’re engaging in to the extent of thinking Glenn Beck can be useful, is a backwards-facing endeavor. If you want something like the Iraq war to not happen again, the path to that doesn’t come through getting Rand Paul to wave his isolationist flag.

Look to the future and not the past. Or at least come up with a plan that’s not a self-parody involving Rand Paul, Glenn Beck, and Fox News attacking Hillary clinton on Iraq.

i agree with all of this - i am not consumed with some idea of karma or universal justice. i understand justice is what you make it - nothing happens unless you attempt to force yourself to try. today i forced us into this wrenching debate on iraq. it had painful moments but it was worthless? we can disagree on this - you can call it self serving - but i want to discourse on these issues. i gave a perspective - my perspective - you were kind enough to debate me on it for a long time. that gives me a better perspective - and maybe you also. i posited difficult things - fantastical ideas - but this is who i am - i believe in the fantastic - i am an eternally deluded optimist - but i like that about myself.

i like people who debate and argue - argument has real virtue. we will probably end up arguing a lot. i’m ok with that too.

500 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:39:30pm

re: #499 palmerskiss

i agree with all of this - i am not consumed with some idea of karma or universal justice. i understand justice is what you make it - nothing happens unless you attempt to force yourself to try. today i forced us into this wrenching debate on iraq. it had painful moments but it was worthless?

Yes, because nothing I’ve said appears to have penetrated or communicated with you in the least, and you’ve accused me over and over of just wanting to win the debate, it feels entirely useless. You haven’t believed I’ve been arguing honestly.

we can disagree on this - you can call it self serving - but i want to discourse on these issues. i gave a perspective - my perspective - you were kind enough to debate me on it for a long time. that gives me a better perspective - and maybe you also. i posited difficult things - fantastical ideas - but this is who i am - i believe in the fantastic - i am an eternally deluded optimist - but i like that about myself.

Don’t goddamn say I was kind enough to debate you when you repeatedly accused me of just wanting to win the argument, for fuck’s sake.

I don’t think you posited difficult things. I think you posited counterproductive, bizarre things. Fantastical, yes, in the strict meaning that they don’t actually connect with the real world.

Glenn Beck.

501 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 5:40:37pm

re: #500 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Yes, because nothing I’ve said appears to have penetrated or communicated with you in the least, and you’ve accused me over and over of just wanting to win the debate, it feels entirely useless. You haven’t believed I’ve been arguing honestly.

Don’t goddamn say I was kind enough to debate you when you repeatedly accused me of just wanting to win the argument, for fuck’s sake.

I don’t think you posited difficult things. I think you posited counterproductive, bizarre things. Fantastical, yes, in the strict meaning that they don’t actually connect with the real world.

Glenn Beck.

fine i have no real argument with that either.

502 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:22:07pm

It is baffling that after this conversation, in another thread, you claimed we’d been ‘agreeing for hours’.

That’s a bizarre-as-fuck take on me saying that your plan bears no connection to the real world and would be counterproductive, and on your repeated assertions that I”m just trying to win the argument.

503 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:29:07pm

i just agreed with you - why did you chase me here to argue with me again.

it was a debate - its run its course - please i dont understand this need to keep coming at me as if i did something horrible. i agree with you - on anything you say.

504 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:34:39pm

re: #503 palmerskiss

i just agreed with you - why did you chase me here to argue with me again.

Because you falsely stated you’d been agreeing with me for hours. That is not true, and I don’t see any actual agreeument with me above, either.

it was a debate - its run its course - please i dont understand this need to keep coming at me as if i did something horrible.

“Coming at you”? You claimed you’d been agreeing with me for hours. That’s not true. I expressed that. Calm the hell down, we’re writing messages on a message board.

i agree with you - on anything you say.

This is so patronizing and weird I don’t even know what to say, except that it’s not true. No, you don’t agree with me on anything I say, nor should you. Stop being weird. Stop trying to make ‘lighthearted’ jokes about me or claiming you’ve been agreeing with me. Just give it a fucking rest.

505 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:36:51pm

re: #502 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It is baffling that after this conversation, in another thread, you claimed we’d been ‘agreeing for hours’.

That’s a bizarre-as-fuck take on me saying that your plan bears no connection to the real world and would be counterproductive, and on your repeated assertions that I”m just trying to win the argument.

re: #504 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

“Coming at you”? You claimed you’d been agreeing with me for hours. That’s not true. I expressed that. Calm the hell down, we’re writing messages on a message board.

This is so patronizing and weird I don’t even know what to say, except that it’s not true. No, you don’t agree with me on anything I say, nor should you. Stop being weird.

no - it is me conceding any point i had with you - in the interest of moving beyond this long dead and silly debate.

i give up. i concede.

506 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:39:10pm

re: #505 palmerskiss

no - it is me conceding any point i had with you - in the interest of moving beyond this long dead and silly debate.

i give up. i concede.

I don’t want you to give up, or concede. I was honestly trying to communicate with you. Me just wanting to ‘win’ was something you made up, not reality. You can move beyond this by, oh, not bringing it up weirdly in another thread. That was you, remember, not me?

507 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:41:13pm

re: #506 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t want you to give up, or concede. I was honestly trying to communicate with you. Me just wanting to ‘win’ was something you made up, not reality. You can move beyond this by, oh, not bringing it up weirdly in another thread. That was you, remember, not me?

i was just making fun of myself gosh. “yeah she is evil - ask obdi” it was pointed at me. not you.

it obviously offended you - so i said ok - i agree not to. what do you want of me? are we going to play “pretend you do not exist” because we had a debate?

508 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:43:23pm

re: #507 palmerskiss

i was just making fun of myself gosh. “yeah she is evil - ask obdi” it was pointed at me. not you.

Don’t attempt pithy humor over the interwebs.

it obviously offended you - so i said ok - i agree not to. what do you want of me? are we going to play “pretend you do not exist” because we had a debate?

What the fuck are you talking about? I’m saying A) don’t drag arguments on into another thread and then complain about the argument continuing and B) I really, really, really have never been trying to ‘win’, I have always, always been trying to actually communicate, and that you have consistently refused to believe that, to the point where you’re now going “Oh, I’ll agree with anything you say!” is just fucking depressing.

509 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:43:54pm

re: #508 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Don’t attempt pithy humor over the interwebs.

What the fuck are you talking about? I’m saying A) don’t drag arguments on into another thread and then complain about the argument continuing and B) I really, really, really have never been trying to ‘win’, I have always, always been trying to actually communicate, and that you have consistently refused to believe that, to the point where you’re now going “Oh, I’ll agree with anything you say!” is just fucking depressing.

ok

510 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:46:02pm

And again, i fully believe that you were actually trying to communicate—occasionally doing a terrible job of it, but I don’t impugn your honesty or your motives at all. Why you can’t return that simple courtesy I have no fucking clue.

511 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:47:52pm

re: #510 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And again, i fully believe that you were actually trying to communicate—occasionally doing a terrible job of it, but I don’t impugn your honesty or your motives at all. Why you can’t return that simple courtesy I have no fucking clue.

tell me which you want me to do - agree with you or argue with you.

512 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:50:15pm

re: #511 palmerskiss

tell me which you want me to do - agree with you or argue with you.

If you have an actual problem with what I’m saying, if you can make a good argument, I want you to argue it. I want you, however, to accept that I’m arguing in good faith and honestly and drop these bullshit, petty accusations that I’m just trying to ‘win’, and accept that I”m actually honestly trying to communicate my position to you.

If you think you can actually defend your Glenn Beck/Rand Paul plan, go for it. I don’t think you actually can show how that would lead to a congressional inquiry on the Iraq war or justice for Iraq, but if you can actually make the argument, go for it.

513 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:54:08pm

re: #512 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

If you have an actual problem with what I’m saying, if you can make a good argument, I want you to argue it. I want you, however, to accept that I’m arguing in good faith and honestly and drop these bullshit, petty accusations that I’m just trying to ‘win’, and accept that I”m actually honestly trying to communicate my position to you.

If you think you can actually defend your Glenn Beck/Rand Paul plan, go for it. I don’t think you actually can show how that would lead to a congressional inquiry on the Iraq war or justice for Iraq, but if you can actually make the argument, go for it.

i am tired and i want to go to bed - and i am being polite and not running off like any other person would have long ago,

i am tired and i agree with you my plan is difficult, i agree with you - i am a fantastical person with unrealistic lofty goals. yes yes yes,

but i want to not make this a continued dramatic silly thing. i would like to continue our debate- maybe on a day where you dont start by criticizing me for having my own style when it comes to ellipses. but i have stayed and argued and agreed with you for a long time and you are still criticizing me - i just want to go to bed . ok?

514 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 7:58:03pm

re: #513 palmerskiss

i am tired and i want to go to bed - and i am being polite and not running off like any other person would have long ago,

You need to stop congratulating yourself on your politeness.

i am tired and i agree with you my plan is difficult, i agree with you - i am a fantastical person with unrealistic lofty goals. yes yes yes,

No, I am NOT saying your plan is difficult. I have repeatedly said this now, that I’m not saying it’s difficult, and I’ve asked you to stop representing me as saying your plan is difficult. Why the hell would you keep doing so? It is not that your plan is ‘difficult’ it’s that I think it’s counterproductive and would lead to bad things. What don’t you get about the difference between ‘difficult’ and ‘counterproductive’?

but i want to not make this a continued dramatic silly thing. i would like to continue our debate- maybe on a day where you dont start by criticizing me for having my own style when it comes to ellipses. but i have stayed and argued and agreed with you for a long time and you are still criticizing me - i just want to go to bed . ok?

Go the fuck to bed, why the hell do you think you need my permission?

515 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 8:00:04pm

re: #514 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You need to stop congratulating yourself on your politeness.

No, I am NOT saying your plan is difficult. I have repeatedly said this now, that I’m not saying it’s difficult, and I’ve asked you to stop representing me as saying your plan is difficult. Why the hell would you keep doing so? It is not that your plan is ‘difficult’ it’s that I think it’s counterproductive and would lead to bad things. What don’t you get about the difference between ‘difficult’ and ‘counterproductive’?

Go the fuck to bed, why the hell do you think you need my permission?

can i ask you a question - why does this - and of course this is coming from my subjective position of being on the receiving end - why does this seem to make you so determined to not let this debate end?

516 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 8:02:39pm

re: #515 palmerskiss

can i ask you a question - why does this - and of course this is coming from my subjective position of being on the receiving end - why does this seem to make you so determined to not let this debate end?

What the hell are you talking about? You want to go to bed. Go to bed.

517 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 8:04:17pm

re: #516 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What the hell are you talking about? You want to go to bed. Go to bed.

well i thought maybe you might as well tell me exactly what it is about me that is making this one you cant just walk away from.

518 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 8:06:32pm

re: #517 palmerskiss

well i thought maybe you might as well tell me exactly what it is about me that is making this one you cant just walk away from.

About you? It’s nothing about you. Like I said, I’m honestly trying to communicate my position. That’s my goal. If you think this is, like, unusual for me, it’s not.

You want to go to bed: Go to bed.

519 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 26, 2014 8:07:28pm

re: #518 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

About you? It’s nothing about you. Like I said, I’m honestly trying to communicate my position. That’s my goal. If you think this is, like, unusual for me, it’s not.

You want to go to bed: Go to bed.

goodnight - have a nice night. :)


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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
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