Susan Benesch on Troll Wrastling for Beginners: Data-Driven Methods to Decrease Hatred Online

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Hateful and even violent speech is familiar online; what’s unusual are data-driven efforts to diminish them. Experiments so far have produced intriguing results including: some ‘trolls’ recant or apologize in response to counterspeech, and small changes in platform architecture can improve online discourse norms. In this talk Susan Benesch — founder of the Dangerous Speech Project and professor of American University’s School of International Service — discusses early research and experiments into managing and responding to hateful speech online, especially in climates where online speech may be tied to offline violence.

More info on this event here: cyber.law.harvard.edu

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334 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 5:57:55pm

Good talk - a lot of the same empirical observations I’ve made. Interesting to see that her research pretty much backs up most of what I’ve already seen and concluded for myself.

I think she’s missing another important factor to keeping trolls from dragging the discourse down - good moderators who take action when the trolls are the nasty kind who only get encouraged by shaming and counter-speech. We seem to have seen more than our share of that kind at LGF.

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:21:05pm

Promoted!

I was actually thinking, “This is a really interesting subject, but probably too dry and academic to go on the front page.” And then I thought, “Fuck that. This is what we need to be discussing if we’re ever going to defang the idiot troll mob.”

Maybe not in so many words.

3 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:23:37pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Promoted!

I was actually thinking, “This is a really interesting subject, but probably too dry and academic to go on the front page.” And then I thought, “Fuck that. This is what we need to be discussing if we’re ever going to defang the idiot troll mob.”

Maybe not in so many words.

Too dry and academic for this group?

We eat dry and academic for breakfast.

4 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:26:32pm

We are a very violent species.

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:28:22pm

re: #4 freetoken

We are a very violent species.

How do you think we got where we are?

But we also have the capability to examine those violent impulses and find ways to mitigate them. So there’s that.

6 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:31:08pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I think she’s missing another important factor to keeping trolls from dragging the discourse down - good moderators that take action when the trolls are the nasty kind who only get encouraged by shaming and counter-speech. We seem to have seen more than our share of that kind at LGF.

You mean alternatives to that kind exist?

7 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:31:53pm

re: #3 b_sharp

Too dry and academic for this group?

We eat dry and academic for breakfast.

Confession: I add a little milk to mine

8 bratwurst  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:32:10pm

re: #3 b_sharp

We eat dry and academic for breakfast.

I am going to try heating up the syrup next time!

9 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:33:26pm
10 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:33:26pm

re: #4 freetoken

We are a very violent species.

We are also a very cooperative species. Without cooperation we would not have developed the cultural and technological structures we have.

11 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:33:54pm

re: #7 Eventual Carrion

Confession: I add a little milk to mine

Stirred, not shaken.

12 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:34:12pm

re: #8 bratwurst

I am going to try heating up the syrup next time!

Maple syrup I hope.

13 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:37:47pm

re: #6 Interesting Times

You mean alternatives to that kind exist?

Yes, I’ve seen them in the wild. Some people lose their sense of social boundaries online, but can change if confronted with the effects of their nasty comments on other people.

There are plenty of sociopaths who are just working out their personal weirdness, but some people are just confused and disoriented and lashing out.

14 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:42:15pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Promoted!

I was actually thinking, “This is a really interesting subject, but probably too dry and academic to go on the front page.” And then I thought, “Fuck that. This is what we need to be discussing if we’re ever going to defang the idiot troll mob.”

Maybe not in so many words.

Most recorded lectures/speeches like this do tend to be a bit dry, but the subject is interesting and her research is fascinating, for example especially the part about Twitter being much better behaved than Facebook in terms of appeals to counter (hate) speech WRT events in Kenya in 2008.

Anyway, if you go ot the Harvard page Randall linked to, you can download the PDF with all the data & charts regarding the study:

15 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:42:57pm

Chocolate topping always helps.

16 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:44:30pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Most recorded lectures/speeches like this do tend to be a bit dry, but the subject is interesting and her research is fascinating, for example especially the part about Twitter being much better behaved than Facebook in terms of appeals to counter (hate) speech WRT events in Kenya in 2008.

Anyway, if you go ot the Harvard page Randall linked to, you can download the PDF with all the data & charts regarding the study:

[Embedded content]

numbers, numbers, numbers… goody.

17 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:46:44pm

I think I’m gonna go make a fresh pot of coffee and watch the rest of this in comfort on my iPad. Later, lizards.

18 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:47:21pm

re: #17 CuriousLurker

I think I’m gonna go make a fresh pot of coffee and watch the rest of this in comfort on my iPad. Later, lizards.

Coffee? This late at night?

How do you sleep?

19 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:48:35pm

re: #18 b_sharp

Coffee? This late at night?

How do you sleep?

I’ve built up a very high tolerance for caffeine. ;)

20 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:49:10pm

re: #19 CuriousLurker

I’ve built up a very high tolerance for caffeine. ;)

At a certain point, the effect of caffeine is reversed.

21 Belafon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:50:29pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

Yeah, if CL’s like me, all caffeine is for now is to keep off the withdrawal symptoms.

22 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:50:41pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

At a certain point, the effect of caffeine is reversed.

I actually believe that. As a matter of fact, most nights I fall asleep about halfway through my bedtime cup.

23 Pie-onist Overlord  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:51:22pm

I have been at LGF for a very long time and I have seen a wide assortment of troll personalities, from the psychopathic stalkers, who made the stalker blog, to the more recent dudebro haters like Destro and Sideways.

There are also role-playing trolls who make up a story about themselves and try to get everybody on the forum to believe it. Sometimes they are scammers who want money, and sometimes they just do it for teh lulz.

24 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:51:37pm

re: #21 Belafon

Yeah, if CL’s like me, all caffeine is for now is to keep off the withdrawal symptoms.

Yeah, Ramadan is nightmarish—the withdraw headaches are especially nasty.

25 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:54:49pm

re: #24 CuriousLurker

Yeah, Ramadan is nightmarish—the withdraw headaches are especially nasty.

You caffeinites must live in an alternate universe.

26 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:55:36pm

What is it with you guys? Nobody wants to talk till someone tries to leave, then you d…r…a…g them back in. Sheesh. //

27 Pie-onist Overlord  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:56:53pm

re: #24 CuriousLurker

Yeah, Ramadan is nightmarish—the withdraw headaches are especially nasty.

I could never become a Muslim. Teh Juice have 6 fast days and they’re scattered throughout the year. That’s enough.

28 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:57:17pm

re: #26 CuriousLurker

What is it with you guys? Nobody wants to talk till someone tries to leave, then you d…r…a…g them back in. Sheesh. //

Is that wrong?

29 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:58:24pm

re: #27 Pie-onist Overlord

I could never become a Muslim. Teh Juice have 6 fast days and they’re scattered throughout the year. That’s enough.

We atheists have no such limits.

Mind you I do have to wear pants with elastic waistbands.

30 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:58:56pm

re: #27 Pie-onist Overlord

I could never become a Muslim. Teh Juice have 6 fast days and they’re scattered throughout the year. That’s enough.

Heh, yeah, the first week is always brutal. After that your body kind of adjusts to the deprivation. It’s also a lot easier when it falls during fall/winter and the days are cooler & shorter.

31 Belafon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:59:42pm

re: #27 Pie-onist Overlord

I once dated a girl who was Catholic, and tried the whole giving-up-meat-on-fridays Lent thing. Found out I wasn’t Catholic material.

32 palomino  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:05:34pm

re: #31 Belafon

I once dated a girl who was Catholic, and tried the whole giving-up-meat-on-fridays Lent thing. Found out I wasn’t Catholic material.

I once went to Catholic high school for 4 years. I also found out I wasn’t Catholic material.

33 Bear  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:06:17pm

Wonder what one would do in the far North when it is weeks between Sunrise and the next Sunset? Would then the fast be determined by clock time?

34 RealityBasedSteve  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:08:19pm

Found this someplace, who knows, it might even have been here… but it’s applicable to the topic at hand.

Hierarchy of Disagreements

RBS
and if you don’t like it, you’re an ass-hat

35 Belafon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:08:20pm

re: #32 palomino

You should have gone with the trial version first. Buying a license without knowing what you are getting into could just mean a wasted user experience.

//

36 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:09:19pm

My only complaint is that there is never a transcript for these types of videos. I DON’T WANT TO WATCH YOU DRONE ON, NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR TED TALK (OR WHATEVER) IS. I usually don’t have the time to fully listen to your presentation and give it the attention it deserves as a linear medium like video (or audio). Let me read, which I can do much faster and absorb more, quicker.

/end rant

37 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:10:31pm

re: #26 CuriousLurker

What is it with you guys? Nobody wants to talk till someone tries to leave, then you d…r…a…g them back in. Sheesh. //

Youtube Video

38 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:11:22pm

re: #33 Bear

Wonder what one would do in the far North when it is weeks between Sunrise and the next Sunset? Would then the fast be determined by clock time?

I’ve never asked how they do it in places like that, but clock time sounds reasonable, since the rising & setting of the sun also affect the timing of 3 of the 5 daily prayers (pre-sunrise, post-sunset, and nightfall/complete darkness).

39 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:13:36pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

At a certain point, the effect of caffeine is reversed.

Too much caffeine makes me sleepy.

40 AntonSirius  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:13:55pm

re: #27 Pie-onist Overlord

I could never become a Muslim. Teh Juice have 6 fast days and they’re scattered throughout the year. That’s enough.

I tried semi-observing the Ramadan fast one year. I lasted about nine days before I broke, and that’s with me still drinking water occasionally during daylight.

It still blows my mind that Hakeem Olajuwon was able to play basketball at the level he did while observing Ramadan.

41 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:18:13pm

re: #30 CuriousLurker

Heh, yeah, the first week is always brutal. After that your body kind of adjusts to the deprivation. It’s also a lot easier when it falls during fall/winter and the days are cooler & shorter.

Ramadan during June must be nightmarish in the Northern Hemisphere. 16-17 hours of daylight leave little time to eat and sleep.

42 Pie-onist Overlord  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:18:47pm

re: #33 Bear

Wonder what one would do in the far North when it is weeks between Sunrise and the next Sunset? Would then the fast be determined by clock time?

There have been lengthy and complex rabbinical debates about Sabbath and fast days in places like Siberia, even Finland and Scandinavia. Also too: while orbiting the earth in the Space Shuttle.

43 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:19:47pm

re: #40 AntonSirius

I tried semi-observing the Ramadan fast one year. I lasted about nine days before I broke, and that’s with me still drinking water occasionally during daylight.

It still blows my mind that Hakeem Olajuwon was able to play basketball at the level he did while observing Ramadan.

It’s hard enough when you’re hungry, thirsty, headache-y, etc. but then you’re supposed to be on extra good behavior on top of it all. If you lose you temper and start shouting or cursing at someone or whatever, then you just blew your fast for the day and have to redo it at a later date.

44 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:21:44pm

Ugh. Just… ugh. This is one of the main reasons I parted ways with the US right, and now it’s spreading to the highest levels of the Israeli government. Seriously bad news.

Boycotted by Jews in Belgium, Welcomed by Likud Deputy Minister in Israel - Diplomacy and DefenseIsrael News - Haaretz Israeli News Source

Ofir Akunis, a deputy minister in the Prime Minister’s Office, met last week with a visiting delegation from an extremist right-wing party in Belgium that the Israeli embassy and the Jewish community are boycotting. Heading the delegation from Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) was Filip Dewinter, a prominent member of the racist party with anti-Semitic elements, whose views have earned him the sobriquet “Belgium’s Jean-Marie Le Pen” according to Israeli Foreign Ministry sources.

Akunis bragged about the meeting on his Facebook page, writing in a post accompanied by a photograph that he would “continue to be a spokesperson for Israel. Without apologizing or squirming.”

The meeting was organized by the head of the Samaria Regional Council, Gershon Mesika, and deputy head Yossi Dagan. Mesika, a Likud activist from the party’s “national camp,” has in the past few years signed up many settlers as Likud members, in a bid to move the party further to the right. Many Likud Knesset members say privately that if they don’t cooperate with Mesika they risk being left out of the party primaries.

45 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:22:11pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Ugh. Just… ugh. This is one of the main reasons I parted ways with the US right, and now it’s spreading to the highest levels of the Israeli government. Seriously bad news.

What happened?

46 sagehen  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:22:53pm

re: #38 CuriousLurker

I’ve never asked how they do it in places like that, but clock time sounds reasonable, since the rising & setting of the sun also affect the timing of 3 of the 5 daily prayers (pre-sunrise, post-sunset, and nightfall/complete darkness).

A Rabbinic court had to decide how to measure Sabbaths and other holidays in for Jewish astronauts or Arctic/Antarctic workers.

They decided to go by Houston time for the Space Station, your permanent home city if you’re at the poles during a no-sun or always-sun season, and Mars will go by local time (which is a slightly longer day than an earth day, but not unbearably so).

47 Pie-onist Overlord  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:23:07pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Ugh. Just… ugh. This is one of the main reasons I parted ways with the US right, and now it’s spreading to the highest levels of the Israeli government. Seriously bad news.

Oh shit, what happened? Bibi took a selfie with Pamela?

48 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:23:08pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

What happened?

Refresh the page - forgot to paste in the link.

49 Pie-onist Overlord  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:23:53pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Ugh. Just… ugh. This is one of the main reasons I parted ways with the US right, and now it’s spreading to the highest levels of the Israeli government. Seriously bad news.

Boycotted by Jews in Belgium, Welcomed by Likud Deputy Minister in Israel - Diplomacy and DefenseIsrael News - Haaretz Israeli News Source

That’s bad. That’s real bad.

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:24:15pm

I tried to call out these people, but nobody wanted to hear it.

51 Bear  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:28:21pm

re: #42 Pie-onist Overlord

Hadn’t thought about the space station. Though travel by air going from East to West and reverse crossing the Date Line makes some interesting things as the possibility the “lost” of a day. I have heard a story of a flight where New Years could be celebrated twice during it.

52 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:29:07pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Ramadan during June must be nightmarish in the Northern Hemisphere. 16-17 hours of daylight leave little time to eat and sleep.

Yeah, for the past 5 years it’s fallen during July/August, which means in addition to the heat you’re fasting from roughly around 4:00am-8:00pm.

Whenever I start feeling sorry for myself, I remember that there must have been Muslim slaves brought here from Africa who had to endure much worse. Can you imagine working from sunrise to sunset in a friggin’ cotton field down south in July while fasting? I can’t—not really.

53 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:29:59pm

re: #49 Pie-onist Overlord

That’s bad. That’s real bad.

You said it. Pam Geller has to be just tickled pink by this, and I shudder to think how much grist for their mills the propagandists of Hamas and Al Qaeda have been handed.

54 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:34:39pm

It’s hard for me to express how upset, disappointed and disgusted I am at seeing the Nazi sympathizers of the Vlaams Belang embraced by the Likud party.

This will not end well.

55 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:37:05pm

re: #19 CuriousLurker

I’ve built up a very high tolerance for caffeine. ;)

I’ve decided I have completely depleted my adrenal glands Coffee has little effect on me.

56 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:39:44pm

re: #31 Belafon

I once dated a girl who was Catholic, and tried the whole giving-up-meat-on-fridays Lent thing. Found out I wasn’t Catholic material.

No one really does that, do they?

Most seem to think it’s an excuse to go to Red Lobster.

57 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:43:24pm

re: #55 FemNaziBitch

Back about oh, maybe 20 years ago, I used to drink coffee all through the day. I’d go to bed around midnight or so, get up around 6 to go to work. Then I did a stint teaching in South Africa. No coffee readily available, and tea wasn’t doing the trick. But I slept better at night. So ever since I just have one cup in the morning and maybe one in the afternoon, or two if I need a wake-up jolt.

If I drink coffee after 7 pm, I can’t sleep until 2 am. I’ll lie in bed, but can’t go to sleep. I admire anyone who can drink coffee after dinner and not be affected by the caffeine.

Although, I have found that some whiskey before bed counteracts the coffee’s effect. Then, I have trouble waking up. I just can’t win.

58 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:43:29pm

Insomnia, Anhedonia and The Unbearable Politeness of Being

Honestly, I haven’t read the article—I just really like the headline.

59 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:44:59pm

Vocabulary Word of the Day

Anhedonia
Anhedonia refers to the reduced ability to experience pleasure, and has been studied in different neuropsychiatrie disorders.

60 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:47:37pm

re: #59 FemNaziBitch

And here I thought Anhedonia was the country just west of Freedonia.

61 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:51:48pm

re: #57 wheat-dogghazi

Back about oh, maybe 20 years ago, I used to drink coffee all through the day. I’d go to bed around midnight or so, get up around 6 to go to work. Then I did a stint teaching in South Africa. No coffee readily available, and tea wasn’t doing the trick. But I slept better at night. So ever since I just have one cup in the morning and maybe one in the afternoon, or two if I need a wake-up jolt.

If I drink coffee after 7 pm, I can’t sleep until 2 am. I’ll lie in bed, but can’t go to sleep. I admire anyone who can drink coffee after dinner and not be affected by the caffeine.

Although, I have found that some whiskey before bed counteracts the coffee’s effect. Then, I have trouble waking up. I just can’t win.

I can’t drink coffee after about 11:00am or I can’t sleep that night.

Mind you I can’t sleep well at the best of times.

62 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 7:53:59pm

re: #60 wheat-dogghazi

And here I thought Anhedonia was the country just west of Freedonia.

I thought was a song by Cab Calloway …

63 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:01:30pm

re: #60 wheat-dogghazi

And here I thought Anhedonia was the country just west of Freedonia.

Anhedonia actually had a alliance with Sylvania at one time, but broke it off rather than invade Freedonia while Rufus T. Firefly was running that nation.

/Duck Soup riff

64 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:03:04pm

Babba???

65 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:05:33pm
66 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:08:16pm

re: #64 FemNaziBitch

Medicare sells steel? News to me.

67 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:16:24pm
68 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:18:26pm

re: #66 wheat-dogghazi

Medicare sells steel? News to me.

Richard Lynn “Rick” Scott (born December 1, 1952) is the 45th and current Governor of Florida and an American businessman. A member of the Republican Party, Scott has served as the Florida governor since 2011.

Born in Bloomington, Illinois, Scott is the graduate of the University of Missouri, Kansas City, later receiving his law degree from Southern Methodist University’s Dedman School of Law. He served in the United States Navy before starting his business career, joining the Dallas firm Johnson & Swanson, where he became partner. In 1987, at age 34, he co-founded Columbia Hospital Corporation with two business partners; this merged with Hospital Corporation of America in 1989 to form Columbia/HCA and eventually became the largest private for-profit health care company in the U.S.

He resigned as Chief Executive of Columbia/HCA in 1997 amid a controversy over the company’s business and Medicare billing practices; the company ultimately admitted to fourteen felonies and agreed to pay the federal government over $600 million, which was the largest fraud settlement in US history; Scott however was not implicated and no charges were raised against him personally.[3][4][5][6][7] Scott later became a venture capitalist.

Scott announced his intention to run for Governor of Florida in 2010. He defeated Bill McCollum in the Republican primary election and defeated Democratic nominee Alex Sink in a close race in the general election, spending roughly $75 million of his own money in the process.[8] Scott’s net worth was estimated at $218 million in 2010 and $83 million in 2012.[9]

69 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:22:08pm

Rick Scott ‘oversaw the largest Medicare fraud in the nation’s history,’ Florida Democratic Party says


Actually, it sounds a lot like the Wall Street to D.C. pipeline.

70 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:22:43pm

re: #60 wheat-dogghazi

And here I thought Anhedonia was the country just west of Freedonia.

Mrs. Teasdale: Notables from every country are gathered here in your honor. This is a gala day for you.

Rufus T. Firefly: Well, a gal a day is enough for me. I don’t think I could handle any more.

72 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:27:33pm

Reuters:Iran plans to replace U.N. ambassador in New York

Abutalebi began working for the Islamic Republic’s foreign ministry in the early 1980s, not long after the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

One Western diplomat at the United Nations said on condition of anonymity that Abutalebi was connected to circles close to Rouhani and former President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, both considered to be pragmatists who have good relations with Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Abutalebi was a diplomat under former President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a hardline conservative who angered the United States and Europe with his anti-Western and anti-Israeli rhetoric. But Abutalebi is not considered to be close to Ahmadinejad, the Western diplomat said.

The seem to have forgotten to include his role in taking American diplomats hostage. Oh well, New Moderate Leadership!

73 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:32:00pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

You said it. Pam Geller has to be just tickled pink by this, and I shudder to think how much grist for their mills the propagandists of Hamas and Al Qaeda have been handed.

[Embedded image]

It’s really dangerous for everyone. The GOP has brought the right-wing fringe into the mainstream here in the US, but then we’re not sitting on a powder keg like the are in the ME, so we can probably withstand it better.

I’m in the middle of reading some books about Israel & the the I-P conflict from the early ’90s—one about the settler movement and another about Meir Kahane. I realize the info is really old, but they’ve been a real eye-opener. Both have lots of notes on where the source material came from which helps a great deal now that it’s so easy to look thinks up via the web.

74 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:35:13pm

Chris Christie Tells Megyn Kelly He Feels ‘Exonerated’ By Report

Lol, no shit. It’s why you payed them!

75 RealityBasedSteve  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:38:32pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

Chris Christie Tells Megyn Kelly He Feels ‘Exonerated’ By Report

Lol, no shit. It’s why you payed them!

And when that hooker said “You’re the best lover ever, babe” she was telling you the truth too.

RBS

76 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:38:46pm

re: #59 FemNaziBitch

Vocabulary Word of the Day

It also kinda sounds like a disease.

Anhedonia — a disorder in which willful ignorance creates adhesions in the central nervous system. This often leads to chronic myopia and loss of critical thinking skills. Often resistent to traditional treatments of reason and logic.

77 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:41:16pm

re: #75 RealityBasedSteve

And when that hooker said “You’re the best lover ever, babe” she was telling you the truth too.

RBS

IIRC he was paying them like $650/hr.

78 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:51:08pm

re: #77 CuriousLurker

IIRC he was paying them like $650/hr.

NJ taxpayer money, right?

79 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:56:03pm

re: #78 Interesting Times

NJ taxpayer money, right?

Yep.

80 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 9:32:00pm

re: #77 CuriousLurker

IIRC he was paying them like $650/hr.

Hell, you pay me that much I’ll say whatever the hell you want me too.

81 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:00:06pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Hell, you pay me that much I’ll say whatever the hell you want me too.

LOL, inorite?

The taxpayer-funded effort cost about $1 million at $650 an hour, according to Democratic lawmakers. It delved into the private lives of aides blamed for the jams, while presenting the governor as an active chief executive dedicated to the truth and wounded by betrayal.

bloomberg.com

You might get a kick out of reading this one—lots of snark:

Departing Port Authority Chairman David Samson doesn’t need to hire a $650-an-hour lawyer to exonerate him.

All Samson, deferred to as “The General” for his brief stint as New Jersey attorney general in 2001, has to do is pick up the phone and call Governor Christie.

He’ll do it for free. […]

It boils down to this: Allies like Samson, who may very well have an important role raising money and providing counsel in the future, are defended and venerated as pillars of rectitude. Those who threaten the governor’s ambitions, like David Wildstein, the former Port Authority appointee who ordered the lane closings, or Bridget Anne Kelly, Christie’s former deputy chief of staff, whose Aug. 13 email sent the scheme in motion, are vilified as unstable, crazy and untrustworthy.

northjersey.com

82 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:02:25pm

I think I’m fighting a losing battle when I travel because trying to find something healthy to eat or drink at a gas station is like trying to find a sane person in the Republican party.

I don’t drink soft drinks, primarily because the carbonation and my tongue do not agree (also the same reason I don’t drink beer). That right there eliminates about 75% of gas station beverages, the remainder are made up of sports drinks, bottled water, flavored/mineral water, milk and fruit juices.

But even the fruit juices are mostly HFCS laden crap and the companies will go to great lengths to try and disguise that fact. A couple of weeks ago I grabbed this off a shelf:

Now I admit I did only glance at the label, but I bought it believing it was 100% juice, it’s not. It’s only a 30% juice blend.

I was at another gas station a few minutes ago. The entire back wall was a large cooler section with six separate compartments, one of which was mostly fruit juice and milk. Of the one that was fruit juice and milk there were dozens of fruit “beverages” but only five, count’ em FIVE that were actually 100% juice.

I do NOT like high fructose corn syrup. I don’t like the way it tastes compared to real sugar, I don’t like the aftertaste that gets left in my mouth and I don’t like the fact that it does nothing to quench my thirst. I rarely if ever feel truly refreshed after drinking HFCS filled crap and that even includes sports drinks like Powerade.

It’s a truly sad statement on our eating habits when it is so ridiculously hard to find something healthy.

83 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:05:23pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Hell, you pay me that much I’ll say whatever the hell you want me too.

I call that “Zeddemore style”

Youtube Video

84 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:05:43pm

re: #82 Eclectic Cyborg

I can usually find orange or apple juice in the coolers at gas stations, but you have to look hard to find them amidst all the juice-flavored beverages.

85 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:06:56pm

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi

I can usually find orange or apple juice in the coolers at gas stations, but you have to look hard to find them amidst all the juice-flavored beverages.

Exactly and sometimes they look so much alike it’s really hard to tell them apart. I have to believe that’s a deliberate deception by the beverage makers.

86 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:08:16pm

re: #82 Eclectic Cyborg

That’s why god invented beer. //

87 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:09:25pm

re: #82 Eclectic Cyborg

But even the fruit juices are mostly HFCS laden crap and the companies will go to great lengths to try and disguise that fact. A couple of weeks ago I grabbed this off a shelf:

[Embedded image]

Now I admit I did only glance at the label, but I bought it believing it was 100% juice, it’s not. It’s only a 30% juice blend.

Very sneaky, putting the 100% right underneath “Juice”. I read it as “100% Juice”, as I’m sure many others do. It wasn’t till I went back that I noticed the “Beverage” part. It’s the same thing in the grocery store: fruit beverage, drink, cocktail, etc.

88 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:10:39pm

re: #87 CuriousLurker

Very sneaky, putting the 100% right underneath “Juice”. I read it as “100% Juice”, as I’m sure many others do. It wasn’t till I went back that I noticed the “Beverage” part. It’s the same thing in the grocery store: fruit beverage, drink, cocktail, etc.

100% liquid + solids in solution!

89 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:19:36pm

OT, but my son has just posted this at reddit. Since many of you lizards are veterans or know vets, maybe you’ll be interested in Doge4Warriors and the Warrior Ranch.

w3.reddit.com

Short version: The ranch is a veteran-led facility to help vets with PTSD, addictions and other problems. The organization is attempting to raise $25,000 through Dogecoin to benefit the programs there. My son’s done the website and advised them on how to deal with Dogecoin.

90 Gus  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:25:54pm

Yep, all you need is for people to believe in evolution.

91 Gus  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:27:54pm

But hey. He’s on YOUR side man.

92 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:35:20pm

re: #91 Gus

If you only listen to 1/3rd of what Ron Paul says he sounds remarkably lucid and reasonable.

93 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:39:58pm

In which PaleoPat defends Putin taking Crimea, in that special PaleoPat way:

Behind the Russian Rage

[…]

The vast territorial losses suffered by the Soviet Union would be like the amputations America would have endured had the secession of the 11 states of the Confederacy succeeded in 1865.

Our situation would be comparable to Russia’s if we had lost all our states on the South Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, and our ports of Norfolk, Charleston and New Orleans all flew foreign flags.

[…]

94 Mattand  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:45:21pm

re: #92 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

If you only listen to 1/3rd of what Ron Paul says he sounds remarkably lucid and reasonable.

That’s what happened with me. Then I actually researched the guy.

Dodged a bullet there.

95 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:48:48pm

re: #93 freetoken

the vast territorial losses suffered by the Soviet Union

What? Did they lose Siberia, too?

Pat’s become an apologist for the Soviet Union. Today must be opposites day.

96 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:54:48pm

re: #95 wheat-dogghazi

What PaleoPat is doing is trying to defend the Confederacy.

Using Putin is just a technique.

PaleoPat is saying that if you’re condemning Putin, why don’t you also condemn Lincoln?

97 Timothy Watson  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:57:30pm

re: #95 wheat-dogghazi

Pat’s has always been a fan of fascism. See also: Bitburg and Reagan’s statement (according to some, written by Pat) where he compared dead SS war criminals to Holocaust victims.

98 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 10:58:41pm

re: #96 freetoken

What PaleoPat is doing is trying to defend the Confederacy.

Using Putin is just a technique.

PaleoPat is saying that if you’re condemning Putin, why don’t you also condemn Lincoln?

Oh, got it. But there is a critical difference between Crimea and the CSA. Crimea didn’t secede from Russia. But I guess Pat glosses over that. I’m not going to waste time reading his shite to find out.

99 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 11:18:42pm

Decrease Hatred Online Now!

100 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 11:22:40pm

re: #82 Eclectic Cyborg

I think I’m fighting a losing battle when I travel because trying to find something healthy to eat or drink at a gas station is like trying to find a sane person in the Republican party.

I don’t drink soft drinks, primarily because the carbonation and my tongue do not agree (also the same reason I don’t drink beer). That right there eliminates about 75% of gas station beverages, the remainder are made up of sports drinks, bottled water, flavored/mineral water, milk and fruit juices.

But even the fruit juices are mostly HFCS laden crap and the companies will go to great lengths to try and disguise that fact. A couple of weeks ago I grabbed this off a shelf:

[Embedded image]

Now I admit I did only glance at the label, but I bought it believing it was 100% juice, it’s not. It’s only a 30% juice blend.

I was at another gas station a few minutes ago. The entire back wall was a large cooler section with six separate compartments, one of which was mostly fruit juice and milk. Of the one that was fruit juice and milk there were dozens of fruit “beverages” but only five, count’ em FIVE that were actually 100% juice.

I do NOT like high fructose corn syrup. I don’t like the way it tastes compared to real sugar, I don’t like the aftertaste that gets left in my mouth and I don’t like the fact that it does nothing to quench my thirst. I rarely if ever feel truly refreshed after drinking HFCS filled crap and that even includes sports drinks like Powerade.

It’s a truly sad statement on our eating habits when it is so ridiculously hard to find something healthy.

Even if you get “100% juice” you can get caught. Is it reconstituted? If so it was heated or otherwise distilled to reduce the water content, then later potable water was added to restore the original water content.

Note that the evaporated liquid can and did contain some elements. Note that heating and other processes do degrade the nutritional value of the remaining juice. Note that ‘potable’ is not pure, nor does it have a taste quality requirement.

That said it’s not bad, it’s just not as good as it could be.

101 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 11:38:19pm

Party of God, indeed:

Ball State, legislators to talk intelligent design

Ball State University’s president is planning to meet with four conservative Indiana legislators who have questioned her decision to prohibit the teaching of intelligent design in a science course.

[…]

The inquiry is from three Republican state senators and a Republican House member. They say they might seek legislative action over the treatment of the physics professor who faced complaints of teaching creationism.

Carson ‘a force in Republican politics’

Dr. Ben Carson has emerged as a force in Republican politics after a committee to draft him for a 2016 White House campaign raised nearly $3 million in six months.

The retired neurosurgeon sounded like a presidential candidate at times Saturday night, March 29, at the Lubbock Memorial Civic Center, saying, “Right now, this nation is in major trouble” because of $17.5 trillion in national debt and a refusal to put God in charge.

“I thoroughly believe God wants this nation to lead the world with bravery and consistency,” Carson told a fundraiser for Operation HOPE.

[…]

2016 Republican hopefuls hope to woo Jewish donors

[…]

Walker, who said that one of his most important jobs had been being the “commander in chief of the Wisconsin National Guard,” expressed concern about the decline in the number of U.S. troops in Europe compared to the Cold War period.

“If people around the world don’t believe that we are strong, they will take action,” Walker said.

The candidates’ attempts to connect with the audience appeared awkward at times. Walker emphasized that he decorates his house during the holidays with Christmas lights as well as a menorah candle. He also noted that his son’s name, Matthew, means “gift from god” in Hebrew. [That’s some cheesy pandering right there.]

[…]

Republican candidates debate in Savannah

[…]

Broun said: “The energy policy is economic policy and I think everybody up here agrees that we need to have an all-of-the-above energy policy. This administration has been blocking bill after bill passed in the House. We’ve passed a lot of good legislature in the House that would lower your cost of gasoline and create new jobs. The problem is Harry Reid and Barack Obama: They’ve been obstructions for us to have a good all-of-the-above energy policy,” he said. “God has created in this country, a tremendous amount of resources and we need to develop all of them and the only way we’re going to do that is: Lets get rid of the EPA all together and lets get rid of the Department of Energy while we’re at it. That way, we can lower the cost of energy and develop our resources that God has given us.”

[…]

The GOP, truly God’s Own Party.

102 Ming  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 11:39:04pm

re: #98 wheat-dogghazi

I just read that entire article by Pat Buchanan. What a fascinating example of a morality-free zone. It’s as if he’s talking about sports games: Team A (NATO) won most of the games in the past few decades, and Team B (the Warsaw Pact, the USSR, Russia, whatever) needed a comeback.

And here I thought that the people of Russia, and the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe were the ones who benefited the most when the Cold War ended with a relaxation of the USSR’s dictatorship and its incalculable human miseries. So I see them as winners, while Pat sees them as losers.

103 freetoken  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:28:58am

Tonight’s featured presentation:

By the late 1950’s, the US had developed quite a collection of atomic tests and protocols. The next venture, and part of Operation Hardtack, was to see what happened when nuclear explosions were in the upper atmosphere.

Note the bunnies - poor things giving their all for our security:

Youtube Video

104 Kragar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:32:29am

re: #103 freetoken

Tonight’s featured presentation:

By the late 1950’s, the US had developed quite a collection of atomic tests and protocols. The next venture, and part of Operation Hardtack, was to see what happened when nuclear explosions were in the upper atmosphere.

Note the bunnies - poor things giving their all for our security:

[Embedded content]

And in Hollywood…

MST3K - 0205 - Rocket Attack USA

Youtube Video

105 freetoken  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 1:28:08am

This goes out to the bunnies who sacrificed themselves in Hardtack:

MP3 Audio

106 Lidane  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 4:28:32am

Question for the Lizard parents around here: why do some people feel that it’s justified to lie to their kids? I don’t mean about small things like telling them that drinking coffee will make them short, or that TV will strain their eyes, or if you swallow gum it will be in your stomach for seven years. I’m talking about bigger things.

A friend of mine posted a photo from a horrific accident where a guy’s Corvette ended up plowing into and getting crushed under a trailer. The photo had a caption that claimed he died because he’d been texting and driving. I pointed out that Snopes debunks the caption since it’s unrelated to the accident. I also said that there are enough real stories about the dangers of texting and driving that using a blatant lie that can be debunked so easily is counter-productive. She and several other parents said it was okay to keep the lie going because sometimes being gruesome is the only way to make a point.

I don’t get that at all. Doesn’t using a blatant lie like that make it harder for your kids to trust anything you tell them? Since I don’t have kids the whole thing is out of my depth.

107 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 4:29:46am

re: #71 Varek Raith

Forbes On Fox Panelist: “We Should Abolish The EPA Precisely Because We Want To Help The Environment”

And here’s why we shouldn’t:

Pittsburgh eagle nest draws a flock of visitors

Read more at philly.com

‘Morning, all. This news is staggering to someone who grew up along the poisoned Monongahela in the 1940’s.

108 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 4:33:25am

re: #106 Lidane

Question for the Lizard parents around here: why do some people feel that it’s justified to lie to their kids? I don’t mean about small things like telling them that drinking coffee will make them short, or that TV will strain their eyes, or if you swallow gum it will be in your stomach for seven years. I’m talking about bigger things.

A friend of mine posted a photo from a horrific accident where a guy’s Corvette ended up plowing into and getting crushed under a trailer. The photo had a caption that claimed he died because he’d been texting and driving. I pointed out that Snopes debunks the caption since it’s unrelated to the accident. I also said that there are enough real stories about the dangers of texting and driving that using a blatant lie that can be debunked so easily is counter-productive. She and several other parents said it was okay to keep the lie going because sometimes being gruesome is the only way to make a point.

I don’t get that at all. Doesn’t using a blatant lie like that make it harder for your kids to trust anything you tell them? Since I don’t have kids the whole thing is out of my depth.

None of our 4 kids were ever told that Santa was real. Never lying to them was pretty much our only rule.

(Daughter 2 is named “Verity” for a reason).

109 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:09:44am

re: #93 freetoken

In which PaleoPat defends Putin taking Crimea, in that special PaleoPat way:

Behind the Russian Rage

That is why the simply let the USSR fall apart: if they had tried to negotiate the separation then, from a position of weakness, the Russians would have had to make too many concessions.

So they let things really apart: milions of Russian suddly living outside Russia, trade disrupted, the social system a shambles, pensions nearly worthless, etc.

So they let total chaos reign for a couple of decades. Then the Russians welcomed a strong authoritarian ruler who is in a position to re-establish the Russian Empire under more favorable terms.

110 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:18:39am

re: #109 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

So they let total chaos reign for a couple of decades. Then the Russians welcomed a strong authoritarian ruler who is in a position to re-establish the Russian Empire under more favorable terms.

Serious question: Who is “they” here? You really think someone in the Kremlin was thinking long-game like that when the Soviet Union fell apart?

111 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:23:18am

re: #106 Lidane

Question for the Lizard parents around here: why do some people feel that it’s justified to lie to their kids? I don’t mean about small things like telling them that drinking coffee will make them short, or that TV will strain their eyes, or if you swallow gum it will be in your stomach for seven years. I’m talking about bigger things.

A friend of mine posted a photo from a horrific accident where a guy’s Corvette ended up plowing into and getting crushed under a trailer. The photo had a caption that claimed he died because he’d been texting and driving. I pointed out that Snopes debunks the caption since it’s unrelated to the accident. I also said that there are enough real stories about the dangers of texting and driving that using a blatant lie that can be debunked so easily is counter-productive. She and several other parents said it was okay to keep the lie going because sometimes being gruesome is the only way to make a point.

I don’t get that at all. Doesn’t using a blatant lie like that make it harder for your kids to trust anything you tell them? Since I don’t have kids the whole thing is out of my depth.

Kids can figure out hypocrisy soon enough. Lying is just one example, even if they start doing it themselves (teen years in my family were the absolute worse). You also have to remember my kids are over 50 as well, and my generation was exposed to a lot of it, too.

Kids follow our example more than we realize, and it’s not the kids that expose our feet of clay—we do that ourselves. Yet, they’ll forgive us and recognize our humanity because we love them and do our best. : )

112 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:23:54am

re: #110 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Serious question: Who is “they” here? You really think someone in the Kremlin was thinking long-game like that when the Soviet Union fell apart?

Yes, the very people that Putin and his generation represents. They let the old hapless geezers like Yeltsin get drunk and make fools of themselves while they quietly arranged that very long-term scenario.

I wondered how they could simply let an empire just fall apart without making any sort of agreements or arrangements to deal with the consequences for the ex-Soviet people.

But now I understand why We are dealing with some very cold-blooded and calculating bastards.

113 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:27:31am

It’s like, synchronicity, man. Slate echoes last night’s discussion of annexation:

The 1897 Petition Against Annexation That More Than Half of All Native Hawaiians Signed

slate.com

114 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:29:28am

re: #112 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

But now I understand why We are dealing with some very cold-blooded and calculating bastards.

Well, they had 70 yrs of The Experiment to get that way, 30 of the most formative years under Stalin and a World War.

115 A Mom Anon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:33:13am

re: #106 Lidane

That’s stupid. Kids have enough access to technology that they could easily find out it’s bullshit. And like you said, there’s plenty of evidence out there that can prove texting/talking while driving is a bad idea, there’s no need to lie about it. Hell, a search through national newspaper articles could yield a ton of info on this subject, why latching on to one picture is so important I have no idea.

I don’t lie to my kids, never have. About the big and important things especially. When it comes to driving, I’m telling my son (no longer The Teenager) how idiotic it is and I set an example. I don’t feel safe talking or texting and driving, he’s never seen me do it and he won’t because of that. His dad on the other hand(grrrr) thinks he’s invincible or something because he does that shit all the time. I also can talk to my son about anything, sex, drugs, bullying, etc and it’s never been weird or embarrassing. Maybe because we started having those conversations early, starting at around age 8.

116 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:36:17am

There’s some sort of historical line around the late 19th or early 20th century after which conquering and annexing territory became “bad” in the eyes of the current mainstream. Beginning of the realization that non-Europeans might have nationalistic desires of their own, or something else.

This hasn’t prevented various territory transfers since then, especially following the two World Wars, but there was a sea change at some point.

[A clarification: This is from the viewpoint of Western Civilization and its historical record. I am pretty sure the various peoples subjected to the assaults, colonial overlordship, exploitation, and arbitrary territorial divisions ever saw it as a good thing.]

117 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:37:53am

re: #112 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Thank you for your reply. Personally, I find it very difficult to imagine such calculated behavior over what was a 20+-year time frame, especially given all the variables that would have been involved, but that’s me. I have a hard time game-planning next month. ;)

118 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:40:32am

Well, of course, business groups like the deal—cheaper products give them more revenue, more wealth.

Mass protest held in Taiwan against China trade deal

bbc.com

Be careful, China will swallow you up, too…

119 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:48:42am

Whereas in Donetsk…

120 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:50:31am

I would be so nervous…

155 aftershocks recorded near the epicenter of Los Angeles March 28 earthquake since it struck - USGS

end of alert

121 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:54:42am

re: #116 Feline Fearless Leader

There’s some sort of historical line around the late 19th or early 20th century after which conquering and annexing territory became “bad” in the eyes of the current mainstream. Beginning of the realization that non-Europeans might have nationalistic desires of their own, or something else.

This hasn’t prevented various territory transfers since then, especially following the two World Wars, but there was a sea change at some point.

[A clarification: This is from the viewpoint of Western Civilization and its historical record. I am pretty sure the various peoples subjected to the assaults, colonial overlordship, exploitation, and arbitrary territorial divisions ever saw it as a good thing.]

That line is pretty much the UN Charter that grew out of the failed colonial era that ended post WWII.

un.org

122 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:56:44am

re: #118 Justanotherhuman

Well, of course, business groups like the deal—cheaper products give them more revenue, more wealth.

Mass protest held in Taiwan against China trade deal

bbc.com

Be careful, China will swallow you up, too…

I’d still warn them against rejecting the deal. China would take such a Taiwanese rejection poorly.

I’d also point out that there isn’t anything intrinsically wrong with business interests seeking reduction in investment barriers. Investment is a key part of modern trade. That said, China has been predatory in that field, so its good to ensure a treaty does not permit that. But that still should not extend to the rejection of the treaty, which is important to maintain good relations with China and so keep the peace.

123 A Mom Anon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 5:59:30am

re: #118 Justanotherhuman

Watched VICE on the DVR last night and there was a story there about our old US industrial cities (focused mostly on Detroit, Cleveland and St Louis) and how they’re being sold for scrap to China. Both legal and illegal “scrappers” are taking apart old factories, schools, churches etc and selling them to scrap yards. Those scrap yards in turn are selling huge lots of scrap metals to China, who has several hundred people here driving all over the country and arranging the deals.

So, first the jobs went there, now the decay caused by the job losses is being made into new infrastructure for the Chinese. So if we ever get our shit together and try to rebuild ourselves, we may run into a shortage of materials we need because we’re selling it off to the highest Chinese bidder.

Yikes.

124 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:01:15am

re: #121 Decatur Deb

That line is pretty much the UN Charter that grew out of the failed colonial era that ended post WWII.

The UN Charter is a definite milestone. I am beginning to think it essentially starts with wider education and spreading of enlightenment values. If you have some education and empathy and start looking at other groups its possible to recognize that they’re not barbarians or chattel, but possibly men with their own desires for equality, representation, and self-determination. By that standard some of the earlier milestones would be the steps towards male universal suffrage, woman’s suffrage, and, of course, the final stamping out of chattel slavery.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:02:09am

re: #116 Feline Fearless Leader

There’s some sort of historical line around the late 19th or early 20th century after which conquering and annexing territory became “bad” in the eyes of the current mainstream. Beginning of the realization that non-Europeans might have nationalistic desires of their own, or something else.

This hasn’t prevented various territory transfers since then, especially following the two World Wars, but there was a sea change at some point.

[A clarification: This is from the viewpoint of Western Civilization and its historical record. I am pretty sure the various peoples subjected to the assaults, colonial overlordship, exploitation, and arbitrary territorial divisions never saw it as a good thing.]

You need one additional change.

As to your substantive point, I’d largely agree, but I’d point out that some conquered peoples, such as the Zulus of South Africa, were conquerors themselves. That should not be taken to mean that the UK was in the right to attack the Zulu Kingdom in 1879, but it does mean that the Zulus were not innocent either.

126 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:02:20am

re: #102 Ming

I just read that entire article by Pat Buchanan. What a fascinating example of a morality-free zone. It’s as if he’s talking about sports games: Team A (NATO) won most of the games in the past few decades, and Team B (the Warsaw Pact, the USSR, Russia, whatever) needed a comeback.

And here I thought that the people of Russia, and the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe were the ones who >benefited the most when the Cold War ended with a relaxation of the USSR’s dictatorship and its incalculable human miseries. So I see them as winners, while Pat sees them as losers.

You’re a stronger person than I, to wade through Pat Buchanan’s derp. It doesn’t surprise me he sees geopolitics as a kind of big football game. Poor, poor Russia, had to give up all those territories it hoovered up after WWII, so now he thinks it’s time for Russia to re-acquire them because Putin. Also, Obama.

Yet, Pat would squeal like a pig if you accused him of being anti-democratic or anti-American.

127 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:03:35am

re: #106 Lidane

Question for the Lizard parents around here: why do some people feel that it’s justified to lie to their kids? I don’t mean about small things like telling them that drinking coffee will make them short, or that TV will strain their eyes, or if you swallow gum it will be in your stomach for seven years. I’m talking about bigger things.

A friend of mine posted a photo from a horrific accident where a guy’s Corvette ended up plowing into and getting crushed under a trailer. The photo had a caption that claimed he died because he’d been texting and driving. I pointed out that Snopes debunks the caption since it’s unrelated to the accident. I also said that there are enough real stories about the dangers of texting and driving that using a blatant lie that can be debunked so easily is counter-productive. She and several other parents said it was okay to keep the lie going because sometimes being gruesome is the only way to make a point.

I don’t get that at all. Doesn’t using a blatant lie like that make it harder for your kids to trust anything you tell them? Since I don’t have kids the whole thing is out of my depth.

Well, Texting and Driving is bad, mmkay, and there have been fatal accidents caused by it. Swapping out one horrible accident photo for another is not the worst thing in the world.

Telling your kids that GAY PEOPLE ARE MONSTERS or HAVING SEX CAN KILL YOU are worse lies.

128 Lidane  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:04:10am

Glancing at teh Twitterz this morning I see this:

Aren’t two Presidents named Bush enough? WTF. It’s got to be a sign of some sort of panic on the right that they’re trying to beg Jeb to run, especially after the GOP has spent the last few years pretending that Dubya’s presidency didn’t exist.

129 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:04:53am

re: #124 Feline Fearless Leader

I added the UN declaration, fitting what you describe, above and here. Yeah—there had to be a long era of thinking and literature before the idea could take hold.

un.org

130 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:07:11am
131 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:08:19am

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

You need one additional change.

As to your substantive point, I’d largely agree, but I’d point out that some conquered peoples, such as the Zulus of South Africa, were conquerors themselves. That should not be taken to mean that the UK was in the right to attack the Zulu Kingdom in 1879, but it does mean that the Zulus were not innocent either.

Start looking through history and I think the real conclusion is that no one is innocent. However, I think that is not a good argument to excuse barbaric or imperialist expansion in the current age.

132 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:10:25am

re: #131 Feline Fearless Leader

Start looking through history and I think the real conclusion is that >no one is innocent. However, I think that is not a good argument to excuse barbaric or imperialist expansion in the current age.

Really shows up in the collision of the Aztec empire and the conquistadores. Perfect match of bastard on bastard.

133 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:10:32am

OH HAI GLENN GREENWALD LOOK OUT UR WINDOW

134 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:12:34am

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

I’d still warn them against rejecting the deal. China would take such a Taiwanese rejection poorly.

I’d also point out that there isn’t anything intrinsically wrong with business interests seeking reduction in investment barriers. Investment is a key part of modern trade. That said, China has been predatory in that field, so its good to ensure a treaty does not permit that. But that still should not extend to the rejection of the treaty, which is important to maintain good relations with China and so keep the peace.

As far as the mainland government is concerned, Taiwan already is a province and belongs to China. Inconveniently, there has been another national government in place there for more than 60 years, one that has diplomatic and economic connections with many countries in the world. So, big China is not free to Putinize Taiwan, or there would be major hell to pay.

135 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:14:17am
136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:15:05am

re: #126 wheat-dogghazi

You’re a stronger person than I, to wade through Pat Buchanan’s derp. It doesn’t surprise me he sees geopolitics as a kind of big football game. Poor, poor Russia, had to give up all those territories it hoovered up after WWII, so now he thinks it’s time for Russia to re-acquire them because Putin. Also, Obama.

Yet, Pat would squeal like a pig if you accused him of being anti-democratic or anti-American.

Buchanan’s DERPage about World War II is telling on this point. Pat has semi-disguised admiration for Adolf Hitler (open admiration for Hitler is still not allowed outside of openly racist websites) on the basis of Hitler’s being a “strong and daring leader”. Buchanan admires what he sees as strength, with morality a distinctly secondary concern.

As WD alluded to, its also about race. In Pat Buchanan’s twisted mind, promoting Vladimir Putin as strong and Barack Obama as weak confirms the proper racial order with white people as the “Lords of Creation” and black people as the “bottom rail of the fence”.

The true sickness is Pat Buchanan’s claiming he is a patriot. His worship of “strong men” would have been repellant to the Founders, who believed in the need for law and custom to restrain everyone in order to protect rights and prevent abuses.

137 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:19:49am

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

The true sickness is Pat Buchanan’s claiming he is a patriot. His worship of “strong men” would have been repellant to the Founders, who believed in the need for law and custom to restrain everyone in order to protect rights and prevent abuses.

Buchanan would have been a Tory, and would have sneered at King George as a weak and ineffective leader who led a major colonial effort get away with treason. And, if Buchanan had been a Revolutionary, he would have lobbied for a strong central leader with less democracy, and raked Washington over the coals for retiring after only eight years in office.

138 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:25:25am

re: #135 Pie-onist Overlord

Tuskeegee University maintains the best data and definitions on lynchings:

slate.com

139 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:26:09am

Earthquakes shaking things up elsewhere in the country today.
West Yellowstone, MT just had a 4.8 (and two smaller ones overnight).
Crescent City, OK just had a 3.2 and has had about a dozen in the last eight hours.

140 Flounder  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:26:21am

re: #130 Backwoods_Sleuth

and now the wikipedia entry wars, so far she has died from nervous exhaust

141 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:26:30am

There is also a realpolitik aspect to the various civilization/society clashes. I think John Keegan in _ Fields of Battle: The Wars for North America_ stated at some point that anyone who would expect that the European powers, or the United States, was just going to leave the interior of the continent in the hands of a disparate collection of barbarian tribes is suffering under a severe delusion.

(I’ll look for the quote and see if I can find it.)

A curious parallel view to this is how I see fracking and the Marcellus Shale. It’s there, and we are going to exploit it. The question is what rules and protections are we going to put in place before we do so? The US is just not going to ignore a large natural gas play sitting under the eastern US - right where there is a large demand for energy and also a lot of transfer infrastructure already in place.

142 Flounder  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:30:06am

re: #140 Flounder

I like nervous prostration better.

143 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:34:48am

Very pretty commercial for a very expensive plane: VTOL/STOL sea trials of the F35.

youtube.com

144 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:36:09am

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

OH HAI GLENN GREENWALD LOOK OUT UR WINDOW

“Guards! Guards! Where are my guards?”

“They were called away to deal with some turbulence among the peasants, milord. Only temporary, I’m sure.”

“Oh. Good. Better there than here.”

145 Flounder  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:40:18am

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Nice calm oceans, looks beautiful.

146 Dr. Matt  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:42:41am
147 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:46:46am

re: #145 Flounder

Nice calm oceans, looks beautiful.

Yeah, and light fuel, no stores. Baby steps.

148 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:47:47am

re: #145 Flounder

Nice calm oceans, looks beautiful.

You test in calm seas before you test in storms. That said, the F-35B Lightning II is a major advance over the old AV-8B Harrier II. The F-35B is faster, more maneuverable, longer ranged, and more stealthy than the AV-8B.

149 Flounder  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:50:10am

re: #147 Decatur Deb

Yeah, my daughter is learning to drive, probably shouldn’t take her out in rush hour shopping traffic in the city. I’m going to try and teach her standard today, fingers crossed.

150 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:52:27am

re: #147 Decatur Deb

Yeah, and light fuel, no stores. Baby steps.

The F-35A has completed live fire testing with the Sidewinder, AMRAAM, and Maverick. The airframe is stable with a proper warload.

As for the F-35B, 13 of them are going to be built through May of next year, of which the United States Marine Corps will receive 6. The United Kingdom’s Royal Air Force (RAF) will receive 6 as well, and the Italian Navy will receive the final aircraft.

151 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:53:27am

re: #123 A Mom Anon

Watched VICE on the DVR last night and there was a story there about our old US industrial cities (focused mostly on Detroit, Cleveland and St Louis) and how they’re being sold for scrap to China. Both legal and illegal “scrappers” are taking apart old factories, schools, churches etc and selling them to scrap yards. Those scrap yards in turn are selling huge lots of scrap metals to China, who has several hundred people here driving all over the country and arranging the deals.

So, first the jobs went there, now the decay caused by the job losses is being made into new infrastructure for the Chinese. So if we ever get our shit together and try to rebuild ourselves, we may run into a shortage of materials we need because we’re selling it off to the highest Chinese bidder.

Yikes.

Even from here:

Mangled WTC steel bought by China

articles.chicagotribune.com

152 Lidane  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:55:57am

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

The true sickness is Pat Buchanan’s claiming he is a patriot. His worship of “strong men” would have been repellant to the Founders, who believed in the need for law and custom to restrain everyone in order to protect rights and prevent abuses.

The real sickness is that there are a lot of people on the right who agree with Pat Buchanan. Don’t forget— he did well enough in the 1992 primaries to be the RNC keynote speaker that year. The GOP has only moved to the right since then.

There isn’t anything he’s saying now that he hasn’t been saying for decades. The only difference is that a lot more people now are openly agreeing with him.

153 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:04:23am

re: #152 Lidane

The real sickness is that there are a lot of people on the right who agree with Pat Buchanan. Don’t forget— he did well enough in the 1992 primaries to be the RNC keynote speaker that year. The GOP has only moved to the right since then.

There isn’t anything he’s saying now that he hasn’t been saying for decades. The only difference is that a lot more people now are openly agreeing with him.

I’d actually say Buchanan personally has fewer adherents now than he did then, but much of that is because he’s moved largely outside of political respectability. He still gets plenty of online attention, but he’s not a keynote speaker at party events any longer.

154 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:07:59am

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

I’d actually say Buchanan personally has fewer adherents now than he did then, but much of that is because he’s moved largely outside of political respectability. He still gets plenty of online attention, but he’s not a keynote speaker at party events any longer.

His views have just as many adherents in the GOP, though, probably quite a lot more now than then.

155 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:11:09am

re: #154 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

His views have just as many adherents in the GOP, though, probably quite a lot more now than then.

His views circa 1992 or his views now?

156 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:21:11am

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

His views circa 1992 or his views now?

There’s no substantial difference between his 1992 views and his views now. Do you think there is, and if so, why?

157 Lidane  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:25:53am

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

I’d actually say Buchanan personally has fewer adherents now than he did then, but much of that is because he’s moved largely outside of political respectability. He still gets plenty of online attention, but he’s not a keynote speaker at party events any longer.

HE might have fewer adherents. HIS IDEAS, however, have only grown in prominence in the GOP. That’s the point.

158 Lidane  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:26:47am

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

His views circa 1992 or his views now?

His ideas haven’t changed, so this is a distinction without a difference.

159 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:27:32am

Mad, I hadn’t read Buchanan’s 1992 speech in awhile.

What a fetid, hateful pile of shit.

160 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:30:00am

re: #31 Belafon

I once dated a girl who was Catholic, and tried the whole giving-up-meat-on-fridays Lent thing. Found out I wasn’t Catholic material.

Did she have a tiny little moustache?

Youtube Video

// Ducks

161 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:32:07am

OT I would like to take this opportunity to thank Charles for his suggestion of purchasing a Prime Membership with Amazon. Last night I signed in to get my movie/TV show part of my membership active. I am very glad I did. I looked at the local PBS station’s schedule and saw very little on today. Thanks to Charles and Amazon I will be watching as much of Downton Abbey as I can.

162 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:33:32am

re: #161 PhillyPretzel

I’ve had prime for years, love it. Except its interface with Roku is clunky.

/firstworldproblem

163 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:45:34am

re: #159 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Mad, I hadn’t read Buchanan’s 1992 speech in awhile.

What a fetid, hateful pile of shit.

It was emblematic of George H. W. Bush’s badly run 1992 reelection campaign that Buchanan was allowed a primetime speaking slot and moreover was allowed to deliver that speech. The elder Bush suffered badly from the death of Lee Atwater the consequent loss of his political abilities. Asshole though he sometimes was, Atwater would not have have let Buchanan deliver his voter-repellant speech.

164 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:47:34am

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

So again, do you think that Buchanan’s views have altered since 1992?

165 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:50:13am

I never watched Amazon prime because none of my WDTV boxes stream it. Recently I bought a new tv for the living room and the prime app is installed on it. Awesome. Now I’m enjoying it. I only wish the interface was more “friendly”. So now I have access to Plex, Netflix and Prime natively on my living room tv.

166 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:50:23am
167 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:55:17am

In which once again GG shows his contempt for Israel.

168 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 7:56:37am

re: #167 Justanotherhuman

In which once again GG shows his contempt for Israel.

[Embedded content]

GG has contempt for anything that doesn’t grovel to GG.

169 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:03:38am

re: #164 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So again, do you think that Buchanan’s views have altered since 1992?

I’d say yes. He wasn’t as ‘understanding’, for lack of a better word, towards the Nazis for starters.

Note: I’m not saying he was a good guy 22 years ago, because he wasn’t.

170 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:19:38am

13 F-35Bs. How much is that 3.3 billion smackeroos? Well, at least they’re 9 MPH faster than the F-18. //

171 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:20:17am

Some big time GOP voter suppression going on in states. But hey. Watch out for the NSA and Big Bird! They’re coming to git ya!

172 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:22:15am

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

I’d say yes. He wasn’t as ‘understanding’, for lack of a better word, towards the Nazis for starters.

What’s your proof of this? He was one of the main people that got Reagan to go on the trip to the SS cemetery, he spoke out in favor of Nazis all throughout the 80s, and in 1991 W.F. Buckley Jr called him out for being a complete antisemite.

Can you reconcile his support for Reagan’s foolish trip to the SS cemetery with your contention?

173 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:27:18am

re: #172 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What’s your proof of this? He was one of the main people that got Reagan to go on the trip to the SS cemetery, he spoke out in favor of Nazis all throughout the 80s, and in 1991 W.F. Buckley Jr called him out for being a complete antisemite.

Can you reconcile his support for Reagan’s foolish trip to the SS cemetery with your contention?

I’m not going to try. There’s no defense for Buchanan and his actions over the years and I therefore withdraw my contention rather than waste my time or yours debating how big an asshole he was then versus now. Because he was and remains an asshole and a destructive force, we both agree on that and that is the cardinal point.

174 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:28:15am

Some more hints at the Russian proposal for a federalized Ukraine
A Federal Model for Ukraine

175 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:33:24am

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Some more hints at the Russian proposal for a federalized Ukraine
A Federal Model for Ukraine

It’s only on the Russian wish list.

176 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:36:48am

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Some more hints at the Russian proposal for a federalized Ukraine
A Federal Model for Ukraine

Meanwhile the EU barely cares about what’s going on short of some sanctions visuals. Germany could especially care less since they’re intent on continuing to kiss Russia’s ass for oil and gas exports to the EU of which Germany is effectively the financial center. NATO makes big statements from time to time yet some of their leadership are on tour making Davos like appearances speaking about “social studies.”

177 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:39:08am

re: #175 Justanotherhuman

If you want to know where Josh Cohen is coming from, BTW, start here:

blogs.timesofisrael.com

178 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:39:10am

re: #176 Gus

Meanwhile the EU barely cares about what’s going on short of some sanctions visuals. Germany could especially care less since they’re intent on continuing to kiss Russia’s ass for oil and gas exports to the EU of which Germany is effectively the financial center. NATO makes big statements from time to time yet some of their leadership are on tour making Davos like appearances speaking about “social studies.”

And instead, you think that we should be doing…

(crickets, tumbleweed, panning shot of empty parking lot where a dog barks briefly).

179 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:40:33am

re: #176 Gus

some of their leadership are on tour making Davos like appearances speaking about “social studies.”

Wouldn’t want to alienate anyone just in case you need to go to Moscow one day and need to get in to a Michelin 5 Star restaurant for dinner!!

180 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:40:48am

re: #176 Gus

Meanwhile the EU barely cares about what’s going on short of some sanctions visuals. Germany could especially care less since they’re intent on continuing to kiss Russia’s ass for oil and gas exports to the EU of which Germany is effectively the financial center. NATO makes big statements from time to time yet some of their leadership are on tour making Davos like appearances speaking about “social studies.”

Yeah, and I think Putin’s going to keep troops mobilized until we sign off on it. There might be a few details we’ll want to change but we’ll probably agree to it.

181 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:45:15am

re: #178 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And instead, you think that we should be doing…

(crickets, tumbleweed, panning shot of empty parking lot where a dog barks briefly).

I can’t think of what else can be done. Crimea is good enough for RU right now to continue direct support for their Black Sea fleet. The time for RU to invade UKR is long past and really wouldn’t make sense to do so right now. UKR has the pipelines but that for RU oil and gas. UKR was already a RU puppet state and an invasion or direct annexation would only make it official. Why in the world would RU want to annex a nation and inherit another location with over half a population that would oppose them? RU would want to inherit that mess?

182 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:46:53am

The Swiss love revenue and he needed a place to live. Win-win.

Kremlin critic Khodorkovsky granted residency in Switzerland

france24.com

183 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:48:21am

Comment section spittle at WSJ is interchangeable with any RWNJ site.

184 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:48:34am

re: #181 Gus

The time for RU to invade UKR is long past and really wouldn’t make sense to do so right now

Unless the Ukraine had pushed back HARD I don’t think an invasion was (is) really ever on the table

Why in the world would RU want to annex a nation and inherit another location with over half a population that would oppose them? RU would want to inherit that mess

Me’thinks Putin just wants to eat away at it, a little at a time, section by section (the ones he wants, that is) instead of annexing the entire region

185 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:48:38am

Twitter is getting ridiculous. Almost unbearable.

186 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:51:31am

re: #185 Gus

Twitter is getting ridiculous. Almost unbearable.

See

Thats why we can’t have nice things!!
/

187 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:52:30am

re: #186 sattv4u2

See

Thats why we can’t have nice things!!
/

Strange but true. It’s basically a hair salon.

188 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:53:19am

re: #187 Gus

Strange but true. It’s basically a hair salon.

Hang out in hair salons, do ya!

189 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:54:23am

Ukraine crisis: British forces to join Nato wargames

British forces will take part in Nato exercises in the Baltics in order to ‘reassure’ allies in face of Russian aggression

telegraph.co.uk

“British troops will take part in wargames in the Baltics in order to reassure Ukraine in the face of a potential Russian invasion, the Defence Secretary said today.

“Philip Hammond said Britain would stand by its Nato allies as he warned Russia may attempt to seize more territory.

“He said claims from senior generals that defence cuts had left the Armed Forces “hollowed out” are “nonsense”, and insisted withdrawing armoured regiments from Germany to bases in Britain would make them more effective. ” More

190 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:54:51am

re: #181 Gus

I can’t think of what else can be done. Crimea is good enough for RU right now to continue direct support for their Black Sea fleet. The time for RU to invade UKR is long past and really wouldn’t make sense to do so right now. UKR has the pipelines but that for RU oil and gas. UKR was already a RU puppet state and an invasion or direct annexation would only make it official. Why in the world would RU want to annex a nation and inherit another location with over half a population that would oppose them? RU would want to inherit that mess?

I think that Putin’s being driven by domestic political necessity; having created this nationalistic myth for Russia, he’s having to live up to it by going in and ‘rescuing’ the ethnic Russians in Crimea. I think that’s why he had to do it, even though it’s costing Russia credibility, capital, and influence. There really doesn’t seem to be any other explanation—I’ve heard ‘warm water port’ enough times to make my ears bleed but this isn’t WWII, it’s really not that important, especially when compared to just having a country that’s completely economically dependent on them, as was the case before.

I think that after we ‘won’ the Cold War, the US has experienced a lot of bafflement of frustration when we haven’t been able to dominate everything and have everything come out the way we want. After beating the USSR, I think we got this feeling that we were masters of geopolitics and could determine the fate of the world—the Plan for the New American century and all that.

Crimea and Russia is a reminder that these kinds of things are incredibly complex, and it’s easy to criticize inaction but nearly impossible to come up with an actual action that’s both possible and helpful.

191 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:55:59am

re: #188 sattv4u2

Hang out in hair salons, do ya!

Nope. Thank gawd for that.

192 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:56:50am

I only go to real barbers with whiskey and nudie magazine. Yarrrhooo!!!

193 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:57:07am
Several thousand people held a pro-Russian rally in Donetsk on Sunday demanding a referendum on the status of Donbas, a large industrial area in eastern Ukraine. After the rally on a square in the city center, where Russian flags and flags of pro-Russian organizations were held, some of the participants moved in procession toward the train station.

Read more: voiceofrussia.com

194 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:57:49am

re: #191 Gus

Nope. Thank gawd for that.

I dunno

Photographic evidence says otherwise!!

Image: UnknownManHairDryer.preview.jpg

195 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:57:56am

Actually my wife has been cutting my hair for the last 20 years.

196 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:58:25am

re: #190 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I think that Putin’s being driven by domestic political necessity; having created this nationalistic myth for Russia, he’s having to live up to it by going in and ‘rescuing’ the ethnic Russians in Crimea. I think that’s why he had to do it, even though it’s costing Russia credibility, capital, and influence. There really doesn’t seem to be any other explanation—I’ve heard ‘warm water port’ enough times to make my ears bleed but this isn’t WWII, it’s really not that important, especially when compared to just having a country that’s completely economically dependent on them, as was the case before.

I think that after we ‘won’ the Cold War, the US has experienced a lot of bafflement of frustration when we haven’t been able to dominate everything and have everything come out the way we want. After beating the USSR, I think we got this feeling that we were masters of geopolitics and could determine the fate of the world—the Plan for the New American century and all that.

Crimea and Russia is a reminder that these kinds of things are incredibly complex, and it’s easy to criticize inaction but nearly impossible to come up with an actual action that’s both possible and helpful.

Yes. Speaking of the USSR, Obama, and alleged “weakness.” The USA would have been doing less about this UKR situation during that time. The USSR would have overrun the UKR and killed 10K people and we would have effectively watched from the sidelines. US military involvement in Eastern Europe never happened. In fact, it barely even happened during WWII. There is barely any US historical precedent for it.

197 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:59:32am

re: #191 Gus

Nope. Thank gawd for that.

I get my hair cut at Astor Place Hairstylists in the village by an incredibly serious Russian immigrant named Alex who had a sign up at his station that says “Please do not ask me about Russia. You will notice I have left Russia. Thank you.”

198 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 8:59:59am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Yeah, and I think Putin’s going to keep troops mobilized until we sign off on it. There might be a few details we’ll want to change but we’ll probably agree to it.

I very much doubt “we” will do anything. The President is not likely to give into Moscow’s demands, as that what any “proposal” will really be, but the EU will no doubt sign off on it if Russia throws in some discounts and trade deals to sweeten the pot. Let’s be honest, Western Europe couldn’t give a fuck less what happens to its Eastern counterparts, especially not when they stand between the West and “cheap” Russian natural gas and petroleum.

199 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:01:56am

Surprised that NATO hasn’t released a statement on The Great Stephen Colbert Crisis of 2014.

//

200 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:03:01am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Read more: voiceofrussia.com

Does the photo I linked earlier look like “thousands” of people?

201 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:03:05am

I think it’s funny how people on the internet and especially Twitter are trying to control the content of The Colbert Report, and Ezra Klein’s and Nate Silver’s website. It’s almost like they think all three are under communal ownership.

202 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:03:18am

re: #197 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Heh. Many years ago I had a friend that came fresh from Russia. He liked to smoke weed but was unfamiliar with the market. He used to say something like “How much may I purchase for $8.11.” Where I’d reply “For the 20th time you can’t buy 11 cents worth of pot!”

203 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:03:55am

re: #201 Gus

The twitter bird should be red.

204 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:04:53am

re: #203 Amory Blaine

The twitter bird should be red.

Twitter which got its start from a huge JP Morgan Chase cash infusion. Outrageous!

205 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:05:43am

Voice of Russia is state owned. They also cooperate with RT.

206 makeitstop  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:06:32am

re: #200 Justanotherhuman

Does the photo I linked earlier look like “thousands” of people?

Didn’t someone post pics of thousands at a pro-Ukraine rally, and about 1K at the pro-Russian one? Someone’s got shit backwards here.

Also - Voice of Russia. Sure to give you the straight dope.
///////

207 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:07:18am

re: #201 Gus

I think it’s funny how people on the internet and especially Twitter are trying to control the content of The Colbert Report, and Ezra Klein’s and Nate Silver’s website. It’s almost like they think all three are under communal ownership.

It’s all about the emotional satisfaction of controlling others.

208 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:08:19am

It’s as if Colbert is somehow in the same league with Buchanan or something. As if it’s established deliberate behavior.

209 darthstar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:10:02am
210 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:10:15am

re: #207 Killgore Trout

It’s all about the emotional satisfaction of controlling others.

I honestly have little in common with most folks. I’ve been zig-zagging through life for over 50 years now. Not going to stop now. Also, I’ll be honest with you, some of the Tweeps sound really stupid sometimes — even the very popular Tweeps that think they’re on the “cutting edge” of “social justice.” Some of them can’t even see their own bigotry.

211 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:10:56am

I love working on Sundays but not this Sunday. It’s sooo nice outside.

212 BeenHereAwhile  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:10:59am

re: #128 Lidane

Glancing at teh Twitterz this morning I see this:

[Embedded content]

Aren’t two Presidents named Bush enough? WTF. It’s got to be a sign of some sort of panic on the right that they’re trying to beg Jeb to run, especially after the GOP has spent the last few years pretending that Dubya’s presidency didn’t exist.

Don’t see John Ellis Bush agreeing to be GOP candidate for POTUS.

Don’t think his immediate family could handle the fishbowl exposure of living in the White House.

213 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:12:26am

re: #212 BeenHereAwhile

Don’t see John Ellis Bush agreeing to be GOP candidate for POTUS.

Don’t think his immediate family could handle the fishbowl exposure of living in the White House.

Not with their criminal records.

214 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:12:27am

re: #207 Killgore Trout

It’s all about the emotional satisfaction of controlling others.

Twitter has morphed into a speaking engagement at some UC college in which their idea of “free speech” involves either a) shouting down the speaker or b) having said speaking engagement cancelled.

215 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:15:03am

re: #214 Gus

Twitter has morphed into a speaking engagement at some UC college in which their idea of “free speech” involves either a) shouting down the speaker or b) having said speaking engagement cancelled.

It appears to be a breeding ground for incivility, obscene bigotry, bullying, etc. Very little left that’s good about Twitter.

Never have had an acct. FB, either.

216 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:17:30am

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

You test in calm seas before you test in storms. That said, the F-35B Lightning II is a major advance over the old AV-8B Harrier II. The F-35B is faster, more maneuverable, longer ranged, and more stealthy than the AV-8B.

I find your faith in this disturbing… O_o

217 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:18:21am

Our collective id. Too bad tweets aren’t etched in stone so future generations may marvel at our technical prowess.

218 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:19:05am

re: #189 Justanotherhuman

Ukraine crisis: British forces to join Nato wargames

British forces will take part in Nato exercises in the Baltics in order to ‘reassure’ allies in face of Russian aggression

telegraph.co.uk

“British troops will take part in wargames in the Baltics in order to reassure Ukraine in the face of a potential Russian invasion, the Defence Secretary said today.

“Philip Hammond said Britain would stand by its Nato allies as he warned Russia may attempt to seize more territory.

“He said claims from senior generals that defence cuts had left the Armed Forces “hollowed out” are “nonsense”, and insisted withdrawing armoured regiments from Germany to bases in Britain would make them more effective. ” More

So Ukraine has a war guarantee of defense?! I had thought that was for NATO members.

219 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:21:05am

re: #172 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Can you reconcile his support for Reagan’s foolish trip to the SS cemetery with your contention?

Youtube Video

220 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:21:16am

re: #209 darthstar

His hair was perfect.

221 darthstar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:22:17am

re: #220 Amory Blaine

His hair was perfect.

I’ve had the pina colada at Trader Vic’s…it’s not that good.

222 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:23:49am

re: #197 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I get my hair cut at Astor Place Hairstylists in the village by an incredibly serious Russian immigrant named Alex who had a sign up at his station that says “Please do not ask me about Russia. You will notice I have left Russia. Thank you.”

My camera tech is like that. Former weapons electronics tech. Dude can repair almost any damage to a camera. Including the ones with the very latest in compact electronics etc. Or an old medium format field camera. Ask anything about cameras, but nothing about why he left Russia.

223 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:24:20am

re: #214 Gus

Twitter has morphed into a speaking engagement at some UC college in which their idea of “free speech” involves either a) shouting down the speaker or b) having said speaking engagement cancelled.

It’s been like that for a while now. A lot of people have lost perspective and don’t have a grounding influence. They can’t tell the difference between a neo-Nazi making youtube videos in a trailer, an expansionist dictator with a nuclear arsenal and a fictional TV personality.

224 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:25:03am

re: #223 Killgore Trout

Wolf Blitzer?

225 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:25:35am

re: #223 Killgore Trout

It’s been like that for a while now. A lot of people have lost perspective and don’t have a grounding influence. They can’t tell the difference between a neo-Nazi making youtube videos in a trailer, an expansionist dictator with a nuclear arsenal and a fictional TV personality.

Some people are even idiotic enough to say stupid shit like Glenn Beck and Rachel Maddow being essentially the same.

It’s crazy out there, bring your helmet.

226 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:30:43am

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

Buchanan’s DERPage about World War II is telling on this point. Pat has semi-disguised admiration for Adolf Hitler (open admiration for Hitler is still not allowed outside of openly racist websites) on the basis of Hitler’s being a “strong and daring leader”. Buchanan admires what he sees as strength, with morality a distinctly secondary concern.

As WD alluded to, its also about race. In Pat Buchanan’s twisted mind, promoting Vladimir Putin as strong and Barack Obama as weak confirms the proper racial order with white people as the “Lords of Creation” and black people as the “bottom rail of the fence”.

The true sickness is Pat Buchanan’s claiming he is a patriot. His worship of “strong men” would have been repellant to the Founders, who believed in the need for law and custom to restrain everyone in order to protect rights and prevent abuses.

Nice post Dark. His outlook on politics and well, everything, has always been black and white. And you’d need to add in that he is (or should be) repellent to more than the Founders. He is repellent to the God he says he follows and to all decent humans religious or not. It is just too bad the guy still has outlets to be seen and heard.

227 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:32:46am

re: #139 Backwoods_Sleuth

Earthquakes shaking things up elsewhere in the country today.
West Yellowstone, MT just had a 4.8 (and two smaller ones overnight).
Crescent City, OK just had a 3.2 and has had about a dozen in the last eight hours.

It may just be one big fracking experience. The whole of America is shaking.

/// I hope…

228 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:35:41am

We need the pepper spraying cop spraying the twitter bird.

229 darthstar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:37:04am

re: #227 ObserverArt

It may just be one big fracking experience. The whole of America is shaking.

/// I hope…

Oklahoma - likely fracking related. Yellowstone? It’s just one big fucking caldera. If that sucker goes, the good news is that nobody will try to repossess your house or car if you miss a payment.

230 darthstar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:38:29am

re: #228 Amory Blaine

We need the pepper spraying cop spraying the twitter bird.

That asshole got a financial settlement for “emotional distress” not too long ago.

232 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:43:42am

Update: US General Breedlove, top NATO commander, had been due to testify before House and Senate this week before being sent back to Europe - @Reuters
end of alert

Crimean crisis
15m
Top US general in Europe cut short Washington visit, went back to Europe early amid Ukraine ‘uncertainty,’ Pentagon says - @Reuters

233 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:47:43am

re: #231 Killgore Trout

10 very good reasons not to believe Vladimir Putin when he says he’s totally not going to invade eastern Ukraine.

Reason # 11

On the long quiet drive home from Myrtle Beach yesterday, I heard the Ukranian women were going to deny sex to Russian men!!

((or reason #1, depending upon your ,, ummm,,, needs,,,,, !!! ))

234 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:48:06am

The war on comedy continues
twitter.com

235 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:50:14am

re: #139 Backwoods_Sleuth

Earthquakes shaking things up elsewhere in the country today.
West Yellowstone, MT just had a 4.8 (and two smaller ones overnight).
Crescent City, OK just had a 3.2 and has had about a dozen in the last eight hours.

Some good news in La Habra

On Saturday night, 20 apartment units on the 2700 block of Associated Road that had been red-tagged were cleared by Fullerton officials.

Building inspectors examined the cracks and determined that foundations were not compromised, so 73 people were allowed to return Saturday night, according to Battalion Chief John Stokes.

236 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:51:07am

Yo! KT, got another one for ya. New outrage on Twitter 5x5!

#CancelSNL

237 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:51:55am

Regarding some of the comments about Twitter. When I first heard about it I thought it sounded like the perfect vehicle to act like a 6 year-old and have everyone else know it too.

That, and I’ve always been a terrible follower. I cringed the first time I heard the religious use of the word sheep. Baaa.

238 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:52:23am

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Heh.

239 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:52:39am

SNL Throws Louis CK into Episode of Black Jeopardy!
Outrage!

240 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:52:41am

Utterly FUCKING amazing. Twitter is turning to shit.

241 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:53:34am

re: #240 Gus

Utterly FUCKING amazing. Twitter is turning to shit.

“turning” is present tense

has turned seems more apropos!!!

242 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:53:52am

re: #239 Killgore Trout

SNL Throws Louis CK into Episode of Black Jeopardy!
Outrage!

[moonbat]CANCEL SNL AND BOYCOTT ALL THEIR SPONSORS! BECAUSE! I’M A TWITTER HASH TAG ACTIVIST!!![/moonbat]

243 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:54:33am

re: #185 Gus

Twitter is getting ridiculous. Almost unbearable.

I’m sorry, I must have mis-heard. “Getting?”

244 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:54:36am

re: #236 Gus

Yo! KT, got another one for ya. New outrage on Twitter 5x5!

#CancelSNL

…and the puritan mob continues to ravage the countryside leaving behind the charred corpses of witches and heretics.
/Metaphorically speaking, of course

245 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:55:20am

Time to pull out the finger puppets.

246 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:55:26am

Back off, Russia.

NATO Supreme Allied Commander sent to Europe because of ‘lack of transparency’ over Russian troop movements near Ukraine border - @Reuters

end of alert

247 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:55:48am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

…and the puritan mob continues to ravage the countryside leaving behind the charred corpses of witches and heretics.
/Metaphorically speaking, of course

Freaking TV addicts.

248 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:56:49am

re: #240 Gus

Utterly FUCKING amazing. Twitter is turning to shit.

Twitter was already shit. When Hurricane Sandy hit and people were tweeting fake information, one of the most basic flaws of Twitter was exposed.

On the other hand, all our other communication methods are shitty too. The media in general are idiots who follow the “Both sides are bad”, “Putin might or might not invade the Ukraine” style of reporting. Facebook demonstrably makes people depressed. Town Halls get you people saying “Keep government hands off my medicare.” It’s not a new thing, it’s part of what happens, I think, when we culturally elevate ignorance and blind adherence to the idea of all free speech being good speech.

249 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:57:10am
250 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:58:31am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

…and the puritan mob continues to ravage the countryside leaving behind the charred corpses of witches and heretics.
/Metaphorically speaking, of course

Nothing has actually happened to Colbert because of this, right?

This freakout is just about the freakout, not about anything actual real? The charred corpses don’t even metaphorically exist?

251 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 9:58:41am

re: #247 Gus

Freaking TV addicts.

nah, I can guarantee most the “offended” people didn’t watch the show and probably didn’t even bother to watch the clip on the internet. No time for that when there’s outrage to be had.

252 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:01:41am

My finger puppets are fair trade and non controversial.

253 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:03:51am

You all seem so surprised that Twitter and FB are a pile of garbage?

Don’t forget who had the ideas for those.

I almost always go back to that old saw, “Consider the source”. Or the source codes.

254 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:07:00am

Meanwhile…

United States Trends

Kim & Kanye
#TheWalkingDeadMarathon
#SomedayIWill
#MichellePhanPromGiveaway
#LIVTOT
Dan Schneider
#YNWA
Meszaros
Mez
Selfie Sunday

255 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:10:09am

Don’t take the bait people! SNL is secretly funded through Koch Bros front groups to spread Tea Party propaganda. Louis CK has deep ties to the Chis Christie administration and this whole thing was orchestrated to distract from Bridgegate and the missing Malaysian plane. False flag!

256 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:11:33am

re: #253 Justanotherhuman

Once the masses get ahold of something it turns to shit. Also, I blame the demise of the arts in school. Music education consists of twerking hedonist videos.

257 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:12:02am

This happened in West Virginia:

Gov. Tomblin Vetoes ‘Abortion Bill’

CHARLESTON, w.va. (AP & WSAZ) — Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin has vetoed a bill that would have banned abortion in West Virginia after 20 weeks.
The Democratic governor said he vetoed the legislation because of constitutionality issues raised by his legal team and attorneys for the Legislature.
The bill resembles a law struck down in Arizona that the U.S. Supreme Court later decided not to reconsider.
Because of the legal penalties it includes, Tomblin said the medical community thought the proposal would unduly restrict the doctor-patient relationship to the detriment of the health and safety of expectant mothers.

The comments are predictable…

258 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:12:05am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

Don’t take the bait people! SNL is secretly funded through Koch Bros front groups to spread Tea Party propaganda. Louis CK has deep ties to the Chis Christie administration and this whole thing was orchestrated to distract from Bridgegate and the missing Malaysian plane. False flag!

Colonel Flaggs mission, no doubt

Image: tumblr_lybdctG6ko1r4zbma.png

259 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:14:15am

re: #253 Justanotherhuman

I’m more weirded out by the idea that this is new, or this strange ‘outrage’ meme that popped up and now won’t die.

Screaming headlines, radio preachers like Coughlin whipping people up, the Red Scare when any hint of anything related to communism could get you shitcanned and blackballed. The NY Post’s headlines going back a hundred years scream with outrage. William Randolph Hearst was whipping up outrage against Mexicans, the Spanish, and whoever the hell else he wanted to back in the day.

The only difference, really, is it in the modern day it’s not just the dominant power structure that gets to express outrage. Blacks had plenty of outrage back in the 1950s, but their outrage wouldn’t get printed or dealt with honestly—instead, you’d get the outrage about the landlord who was letting blacks move in. The only places you’d find the ‘outrage’ of actual minorities would be in small newspapers. Very few great reporters, like Murray Kempton, were able to talk about the outrageous things while fitting them into a beautiful narrative frame that made him readable; he was able to write about the Sonny Liston/Ali fight in naked racial terms, but nobody else could have gotten away with it.

Huck Finn has had people being stupidly outraged at it since it was published. They’ve been outraged at it because it had a poor person with bad morals as a hero, they’ve been outraged at it because it portrayed Jim as the most intelligent and ethical person in the story, they’ve been outraged at it because of its use of vernacular, because it showed the South in a bad light, because it had the word n*****, because it wasn’t racist enough and because it was too racist.

And yet somehow, people manage to think that things are all different now. Things have changed, but both the fact that people get outraged and the fact that really, really outrageous things go on hasn’t changed, and humans being humans often get outraged and things that aren’t actually outrageous, too.

Being outraged is not a negative state. It entirely depends what you’re outraged about.

260 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:14:49am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

Don’t take the bait people! SNL is secretly funded through Koch Bros front groups to spread Tea Party propaganda. Louis CK has deep ties to the Chis Christie administration and this whole thing was orchestrated to distract from Bridgegate and the missing Malaysian plane. False flag! #UniteBlue

FTFY

//

261 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:17:49am

re: #260 Gus

FTFY

//

lol
It could just as easily be a Soros plot using Alinsky tactics. Once everybody is fired for being offensive then we’ll have to expand social services and all live off the government is a socialist utopia!
/Glenn Beck

262 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:18:35am

The amount of political power wielded by the Koch brothers in the US really is outrageous. The number of people that we have in prison for victimless drug crimes really is outrageous. The influence of the prison union in California really is outrageous. The promotion of AGW-denial really is outrageous.

Yelling about these things on twitter I don’t think really does anything to address the outrages, though. It’s a very neutered form of protest. A titter link that goes to a deeper story, sure but just saying “We jail more people than any other country!” Isn’t going to change anyone’s mind on prison reform.

264 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:22:40am

I treat Twitter just like I treat all other media - you have to develop filters for processing the information and eliminating the noise. I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this, it’s just that Twitter is wide open, so without filters and a thick skin you’ll feel like you’re inundated with fools.

This is how the Internet works. It gives a voice to a lot of people who don’t have any sense of responsibility, as well as plenty of people who do. When I encounter idiots on Twitter, I just block them and move on. There’s no point in being upset about it.

265 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:25:59am

And yes, some of the outrages that pop up on Twitter are silly and overblown. But that doesn’t mean there are no genuine things to be outraged about.

266 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:26:19am
This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

William Shakespeare

267 Mattand  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:26:57am

re: #265 Charles Johnson

And yes, some of the outrages that pop up on Twitter are silly and overblown. But that doesn’t mean there are no genuine things to be outraged about.

LOL, I can think of one of your readers who would emphatically disagree with that.

268 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:28:50am
269 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:28:55am

270 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:32:00am

re: #240 Gus

Utterly FUCKING amazing. Twitter is turning to shit.

Turning?

271 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:33:11am

re: #265 Charles Johnson

And yes, some of the outrages that pop up on Twitter are silly and overblown. But that doesn’t mean there are no genuine things to be outraged about.

There are always things to be outraged about, but Twitter has diluted them.

We were lucky to have a landline and mimeograph machine for our newsletters back in the day. And we still accomplished a hell of a lot. : )

272 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:33:59am

re: #270 b_sharp

Turning?

I blame athiests.

See what I did here?

273 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:36:25am

re: #268 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Goddamn, I miss George. : )

275 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:39:23am

Meanwhile, even the few conservatives I follow on Twitter because they don’t seem insane are agitating constantly for the US to use military force against Russia and denigrating efforts at diplomacy.

276 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:40:40am

re: #272 Gus

I blame athiests.

See what I did here?

So do I.

277 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:41:15am

Foolish mortals

278 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:42:18am

re: #275 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, even the few conservatives I follow on Twitter because they don’t seem insane are agitating constantly for the US to use military force against Russia and denigrating efforts at diplomacy.

What the hell are they supposed to do, start a nuke war? Or do they believe that Reagan caused the downfall of the USSR by threatening them and are convinced that tactic is all that is needed now?

279 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:42:42am
280 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:42:42am

re: #274 Killgore Trout

SNL Brings You Your New Favorite Hard-Hitting Cop Show: Dyke & Fats
Outrage!

The Jezebel article calls it brilliant. Outrage, already diluted as a word by you helplessly spasming it out every day, is going to become just a homeopathic set of syllables if you keep saying it about things that there isn’t any outrage about.

281 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:44:39am

I watched a Louis CK skit. Once.

282 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:45:56am

Neither Twitter nor FB were designed to solve the crises of our times.

They’re a tool, nothing more, and only as good as they’re used.

283 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:46:18am

re: #282 Justanotherhuman

Neither Twitter nor FB were designed to solve the crises of our times.

They’re a tool, nothing more, and only as good as they’re used.

Exactly.

284 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:46:22am

re: #279 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

The only time’s they’re funny now is when they get the right guest on, and even then, it’s mostly that guest being funny, not them.

I miss In Living Color.

Youtube Video

285 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:47:21am
286 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:51:15am

Here’s what’s in my head.

287 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:53:15am

Comedy is like country music.

//

288 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:54:58am

re: #287 Gus

Comedy is like country music.

//

…both will be eliminated in the new utopia.

289 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:56:02am

re: #264 Charles Johnson

I treat Twitter just like I treat all other media - you have to develop filters for processing the information and eliminating the noise. I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this, it’s just that Twitter is wide open, so without filters and a thick skin you’ll feel like you’re inundated with fools.

This is how the Internet works. It gives a voice to a lot of people who don’t have any sense of responsibility, as well as plenty of people who do. When I encounter idiots on Twitter, I just block them and move on. There’s no point in being upset about it.

As The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humorous Anecdotes, Chapter IX: Phrases of Import and Salvation states, “To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid.”

That’s got a big dose of sarcasm in it.

290 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:56:46am

My connection sucks to no end.

291 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:57:35am

re: #273 Justanotherhuman

Goddamn, I miss George. : )

He is the exemplar of John Ralston Saul’s observation, “Comedy is the least controllable form of language and so the biggest threat to those with power.”

292 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:58:04am

re: #290 Gus

Mine’s pretty good. He’s got sour diesel right now.
//

293 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:58:07am

[Stabs VirginMobile2Go modem 1,000 times.]

294 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:58:22am

I’m looking forward to seeing how Louis handles this. My guess is he’s going to tell the outragers to fuck off and grow up. He’s self employed with no network or corporate ties so he doesn’t have to backpeddle or apologize. He can’t be fired and boycotting his shows won’t hurt him at all.

295 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:59:47am
296 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 10:59:48am

re: #288 Killgore Trout

…both will be eliminated in the new utopia.

Might as well kill two birds with one stone after beating a horse to death. After all, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

297 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:04:22am

re: #264 Charles Johnson

I treat Twitter just like I treat all other media - you have to develop filters for processing the information and eliminating the noise. I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this, it’s just that Twitter is wide open, so without filters and a thick skin you’ll feel like you’re inundated with fools.

I find Twitter very useful in my area of study - media and technology. I don’t use it for politics. I don’t follow many people who are blatantly political, either. So I miss all the “mainstream” political outrage. The cancelcolbert stuff probably would have ended up in my feed, but I also don’t peruse Twitter on weekends.

298 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:07:16am

Frank Zappa would have hated Twitter.

299 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:12:57am

re: #298 Gus

Frank Zappa would have hated Twitter.

Frank Zappa hated everything.

300 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:13:19am

Twitter needs to clean house as per it’s own TOS

Targeted Abuse: You may not engage in targeted abuse or harassment. Some of the factors that we take into account when determining what conduct is considered to be targeted abuse or harassment are:
if you are sending messages to a user from multiple accounts;
if the sole purpose of your account is to send abusive messages to others;
if the reported behavior is one-sided or includes threats

support.twitter.com

301 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:14:59am

Come to think of it, MadTV had some rather eyebrow raising skits including some imitations that would have caused Twitter to self-implode in outrage.

302 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:19:10am

re: #284 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The only time’s they’re funny now is when they get the right guest on, and even then, it’s mostly that guest being funny, not them.

Right - the only funny bits on the show are things that they didn’t write themselves.

Just watched Louis CK’s opening monologue from last night - good case in point. It’s funny, because it’s him being funny. It would have been funny anywhere.

They put him in a couple of skits, and actually managed to make Louis CK unfunny.

303 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:22:31am

re: #301 Gus

Bob and Ray, who were hilarious, have the occasional sketch that’s cringe-inducingly racist. They were miles and miles ahead of others in their day, especially in making fun of male chauvinism, but one of the main reasons to try to promote responsible speech in the public sphere is that if you grow up thinking it’s okay to be racist, you generally wind up at least somewhat racist.

Bob and Ray still rule, though.

Here’s an apropos old skit, of them making fun of polling:

Youtube Video

304 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:23:08am

re: #299 Charles Johnson

Frank Zappa hated everything.

So does Gus.

305 Kragar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:25:58am
306 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:26:09am

Wow super young Jamie Lee Curtis on The Love Boat.

307 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:27:40am

Bob and Ray, television referee:

Youtube Video

Oh no they want the emotional satisfaction of controlling others!

308 Kragar  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:28:51am

Such a tease.

309 BeenHereAwhile  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:29:18am

re: #298 Gus

Frank Zappa would have hated Twitter.

Frank would have released “Mudshark & The 200 Tweets.”

310 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:29:36am

re: #304 b_sharp

So does Gus.

Right now I’m thinking about how much I would like a king size bed in a 3 bedroom bi-level.

311 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:29:42am

Obdicut I think you will appreciate this.

It takes a real act of will to look at that pattern on the earthquake/aftershocks map, feel a little motion from time to time and not think getting slammed is a lot more likely than any science would support.

312 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:34:39am

WHY DO YOU WANT A 3 BEDROOM BI-LEVEL WHEN THERE ARE CHILDREN STARVING IN THE WORLD!!!11TY

313 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:34:56am

Fear and self-loathing on the internet.

314 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:39:09am
315 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:39:18am

re: #310 Gus

Right now I’m thinking about how much I would like a king size bed in a 3 bedroom bi-level.

Bi-level curious?

316 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:41:03am

Right now I’m falling asleep while thinking about going to my local store.

317 BeenHereAwhile  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:42:02am

re: #308 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Such a tease.

Steven Seagal was once described to me as a “parade float.”

318 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:43:27am

re: #316 Gus

Right now I’m falling asleep while thinking about going to my local store.

Just thinking about actually moving makes you sleepy!?!?!

Wow ,, and I thought I was lazy !!!

320 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:46:27am

Craftsman style bungalow is my favorite. I hope to be hauled out of one on a stretcher in my old age.

321 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:47:31am

re: #318 sattv4u2

Just thinking about actually moving makes you sleepy!?!?!

Wow ,, and I thought I was lazy !!!

Moving?

322 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:50:43am

re: #320 Amory Blaine

Craftsman style bungalow is my favorite. I hope to be hauled out of one on a stretcher in my old age.

[Embedded image]

Portland is littered with them. I love mine.

323 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:51:52am

re: #320 Amory Blaine

Craftsman style bungalow is my favorite. I hope to be hauled out of one on a stretcher in my old age.

[Embedded image]

Feet first?

324 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:52:21am

re: #321 Gus

Moving?

yeah ,,,, using your legs ,,, being mobile ,,, WALKING !!!

325 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:54:08am

re: #323 Gus

Ha. Hopefully I’ll be able to afford a nice one before I kick the bucket. Not that I’m ungrateful for my Cape Cod, but they never were my favorite style. Although I will say it has grown on me.

326 Gus  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:54:41am

re: #324 sattv4u2

yeah ,,,, using your legs ,,, being mobile ,,, WALKING !!!

Mmm. I slept on the couch last night as usual. Neck cracks like crazy. Broke my leg over a year ago and still have a torn deltoid. Ankle’s fucked up. Knee is fucked up and the hip is fucked up. Yeah, walking.

For everyone else. No questions or recommendations please. KTHX.

327 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 11:58:51am

re: #326 Gus

Mmm. I slept on the couch last night as usual. Neck cracks like crazy. Broke my leg over a year ago and still have a torn deltoid. Ankle’s fucked up. Knee is fucked up and the hip is fucked up. Yeah, walking.

>For everyone else. No question or recommendations please. KTHX.

In my near future

Ankle surgery
Knee replacement surgery
Possible hip replacement surgery
Shoulder surgery
Elbow surgery
Re-set broken bone on my right hand
Hernia operation
dental surgery

:)

328 Ming  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:11:32pm

re: #308 Kragar

Steven Seagal favors Putin over Obama and says he may emigrate to Russia | The Raw Story rawstory.com …

Such a tease.

Wow. It’s interesting that Seagal is closely associated with Sheriff Joe Arpaio (the Raw Story article mentions Arpaio). I wonder what Sheriff Joe would say about Seagal’s views on Putin versus Obama, Russia versus the United States.

Believe me, I’m not a particular fan of Arpaio, but I do note with respect that his career in law enforcement has spanned 50 years. Would he agree with his buddy Mr. Seagal, that Putin’s violent actions in Crimea are justified, even admirable? That would be a shocking position for an American lawman to take.

329 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:21:46pm

re: #280 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The Jezebel article calls it brilliant. Outrage, already diluted as a word by you helplessly spasming it out every day, is going to become just a homeopathic set of syllables if you keep saying it about things that there isn’t any outrage about.

I think we’re supposed to be outraged by the outrage, or something. It’s weird. People seem to have forgotten that the internet does have an off button, so to speak—your Twitter client, web browser, etc. all have a little “x” up in the corner that’ll immediately make whatever’s annoying you go away if you click on it.

I’m starting to think some folks have zero offline hobbies or interests. I mean, FFS go read a book or something.

Speaking of, I think I’ll take my own advice. Later, lizards.

330 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:38:13pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

In my near future

Ankle surgery
Knee replacement surgery
Possible hip replacement surgery
Shoulder surgery
Elbow surgery
Re-set broken bone on my right hand
Hernia operation
dental surgery

:)

Time to become a cyborg.

331 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:38:18pm

re: #328 Ming

Wow. It’s interesting that Seagal is closely associated with Sheriff Joe Arpaio (the Raw Story article mentions Arpaio). I wonder what Sheriff Joe would say about Seagal’s views on Putin versus Obama, Russia versus the United States.

Believe me, I’m not a particular fan of Arpaio, but I do note with respect that his career in law enforcement has spanned 50 years. Would he agree with his buddy Mr. Seagal, that Putin’s violent actions in Crimea are justified, even admirable? That would be a shocking position for an American lawman to take.

Just Putin protecting his own from an increasing influx of immigrant Tartars.
////

332 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:39:19pm

re: #330 b_sharp

Time to become a cyborg.

Or just upload yourself and leave meatspace altogether. But then you’d need service pack updates all the time.
//

333 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:45:09pm

re: #332 Feline Fearless Leader

Or just upload yourself and leave meatspace altogether. But then you’d need service pack updates all the time.
//

Hopefully not from MS.

334 Floral Giraffe  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 6:57:37pm

I think this is the most thought provoking post I have ever read on LGF!


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