Monday Night Jam: The Both (Aimee Mann and Ted Leo) - Milwaukee

Featuring the great Ed Leo on drums
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THE BOTH (Aimee Mann and Ted Leo)

Aimee Mann and Ted Leo have joined forces for a collaborative project they call The Both. The duo’s self-titled debut is out now on SuperEgo Records.

’ “Walking along Milwaukee’s riverfront between sound check and show time last year, Aimee and I were startled by a very disconcerting bronze statue of Arthur Fonzarelli, a.k.a. ‘The Fonz,’ a.k.a. ‘The Bronze Fonz,’” Leo tells Rolling Stone. “In that very moment, we knew we had to start a band to immortalize it (more than a bronze statue already immortalizes something), and the Both was born.’ - Rolling Stone

Director - Daniel Ralston
AD - David Dunn
Producer - Ted Passon
Producer - Laris Kreslins
DP - Zac Rubino
Editior - David Dunn
Colorist - Lenore Romas
Gaffer - Phil Tartaglione
Key Grip - Jozef Jozefski
Art Dept. - Lenore Romas
Makeup - Tammie Castagna
PA - Craig Scheihing
PA - Chris Kane
Original Artwork: Mollie K. Komins

An All Ages Production

Special Thanks: Maas Building, Kung Fu Necktie, Boot and Saddle, Rory Lucey.

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303 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 5:59:28pm
2 Kragar  Apr 21, 2014 6:01:48pm
4 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:05:30pm
5 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:08:26pm

re: #4 Gus

[Embedded content]

I have a llama. Your argument is invalid.

6 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:11:29pm

re: #5 thedopefishlives

I have a llama. Your argument is invalid.

7 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:12:30pm
9 Kragar  Apr 21, 2014 6:12:52pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

GG or Sirota?

10 Eventual Carrion  Apr 21, 2014 6:13:41pm

Got an email that they are playing locally in early may. Would prob be a good show.

11 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:14:23pm

Journosplaining

12 Kragar  Apr 21, 2014 6:14:33pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Here Comes the Upshot, the New Explanatory Journalism Effort From the New York Times — Tech News and Analysis

A boom in journalistic explainers

If you have to explain it, you’re doing it wrong

13 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:14:53pm

Journasplaining

14 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:15:22pm

I’m thinking exo-planetary journalism might be a more appropriate name.

15 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:16:18pm

I DON’T NEED NO JOURNALISTS EXPLAININ STUFF TO ME!!1!

//

16 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:16:18pm
17 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:18:09pm

And this year’s winner of the prestigious award in journalistic assplainin goes to………

18 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:19:51pm

re: #13 Gus

Journasplaining

Luuuucyyyyyy… You got some ‘splainin’ to do!

19 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:19:58pm
20 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:20:01pm

The dudebroification of journalism really needs to stop.

21 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:20:34pm

re: #20 b.d.

The dudebroification of journalism really needs to stop.

Glenn Greenwald, original dudebro, just got a Pulitzer Prize. It’s only going to get worse.

22 Killgore Trout  Apr 21, 2014 6:20:35pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Here Comes the Upshot, the New Explanatory Journalism Effort From the New York Times — Tech News and Analysis

So far Vox seems like a decent site. 538 just isn’t covering interesting or relevant topics. I like the longer format articles and more detailed information than the usual AP/Rueters stuff. So far it looks like a positive trend in journalism. The “he said, she said” reporting isn’t enough for an informed public, and the partisan cable pundits have done more damage than good. I’m glad to see movements towards better quality information.

23 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:21:41pm

re: #20 b.d.

The dudebroification of journalism really needs to stop.

Journalism journalism.

24 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:22:34pm

News about the news.

25 Killgore Trout  Apr 21, 2014 6:24:01pm

re: #24 Gus

News about the news.

I’ve always been a sucker for movies about movies.

26 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:24:21pm

Maybe I’m just used to the concept of having to translate what I do into “normal people English” but eh. I can’t get worked up over this. Some of the organizations that have popped up to do it are full of dudebros, sure, but that doesn’t mean the idea is crap.

27 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 6:24:22pm

“A boom in journalistic explainers.”

A journalistic explainer is by definition not a journalist.

“That which is like can never be the same as that to which it is like”.
—Basil of Ancyra

28 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:24:40pm

Before you “explain” the news to me, you’d better prove beyond a doubt that I should accept your explanation.

29 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:25:09pm

re: #24 Gus

Our top story tonight…the people who didn’t like the way reported last night’s top story are a bunch of drooling sycophants.

30 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:25:47pm

Otherwise, this is just a dressed-up opinion column.

31 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:25:51pm

re: #26 klys

Maybe I’m just used to the concept of having to translate what I do into “normal people English” but eh. I can’t get worked up over this. Some of the organizations that have popped up to do it are full of dudebros, sure, but that doesn’t mean the idea is crap.

I get that, and it’s fine for technical subjects, but I don’t think that news is a technical subject that needs explaining in “normal people English”.

32 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 6:26:08pm

re: #29 b.d.

Our top story tonight…the people who didn’t like the way reported last night’s top story are a bunch of drooling sycophants.

“The people who sacked last night’s journalists have been sacked.”

33 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:26:25pm

Let’s hire a flat earther to run our science pages, that will ensure a LOT of hits and an active comment section!!

34 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:26:39pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

I’ve always been a sucker for movies about movies.

I prefer photographs of people taking photographs.

35 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:26:50pm

re: #31 thedopefishlives

I get that, and it’s fine for technical subjects, but I don’t think that news is a technical subject that needs explaining in “normal people English”.

Actually, I think a “normal people English” explanation of things like the NSA stories or the financial meltdown of 2008 would have been helpful. But that’s just me.

36 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:28:11pm

Our readers have grown weary of ancient aliens, we need some more current ones.

//

37 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:30:57pm

re: #35 klys

Actually, I think a “normal people English” explanation of things like the NSA stories or the financial meltdown of 2008 would have been helpful. But that’s just me.

My problem is that this sets the journalists up as the experts in translating the news. Again, in the technical field, we can be validated as experts by various means; but what, in particular, makes a journalist more qualified to interpret the news? Why should I listen to, say, CNN’s translation into ordinary English as opposed to, say, Faux News’s?

38 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:32:15pm
39 Political Atheist  Apr 21, 2014 6:33:33pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Otherwise, this is just a dressed-up opinion column.

English to English translation where you shouldn’t trust the translator.

Oh joy. The usual *bulshyt with added pretension.

*Anathem by Neal Stephenson reference.

40 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:34:12pm

re: #37 thedopefishlives

My problem is that this sets the journalists up as the experts in translating the news. Again, in the technical field, we can be validated as experts by various means; but what, in particular, makes a journalist more qualified to interpret the news? Why should I listen to, say, CNN’s translation into ordinary English as opposed to, say, Faux News’s?

To turn this around: do you expect popular science writers to have a degree in the field? Some do, some don’t.

In that dying field of investigative journalism, journalists used to go out and learn facts for presentation to the public, in a form the public could understand, without having to do all of the backup research. Is this somehow materially different?

41 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 6:34:53pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Amazing how many creationists believe that’s a real gotcha question.

42 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:35:48pm
43 dog philosopher  Apr 21, 2014 6:36:48pm

“Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. You have to pop the hood and figure out why smoke comes out of your car. … Or, in order to build the perfect mobile app, you must bypass Android’s comfortable Java coating and dig deep to find your true inner geek. You must create part of an app in the primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty language called C”

(“Android Application Development for Dummies”)

all my fellow primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty hairy chested C pgmrs stand up and make animal noises!

44 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:38:19pm

re: #43 dog philosopher

“Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. You have to pop the hood and figure out why smoke comes out of your car. … Or, in order to build the perfect mobile app, you must bypass Android’s comfortable Java coating and dig deep to find your true inner geek. You must create part of an app in the primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty language called C”

(“Android Application Development for Dummies”)

all my fellow primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty hairy chested C pgmrs stand up and make animal noises!

You can write C code for Android? Color me surprised.

45 Killgore Trout  Apr 21, 2014 6:39:27pm

re: #35 klys

Actually, I think a “normal people English” explanation of things like the NSA stories or the financial meltdown of 2008 would have been helpful. But that’s just me.

I agree. There are a couple reasons why journalists don’t really “explain” things in depth is because they often don’t understand it themselves. Christian Science Monitor does a decent job adding content to their articles by calling a reputable expert or two, but that’s a bit of extra work most journalists won’t do. The other reason why MSM outlets shy away from explaining things is because of the outrage and possibility of alienating readers by not adhering to the desired partisan explanation of an event. It’s safer to explain as little as possible to avoid hurting reader’s feelings.

46 dog philosopher  Apr 21, 2014 6:39:35pm

re: #44 thedopefishlives

You can write C code for Android? Color me surprised.

apparently not without wading through plenty of metaphors

47 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:40:33pm

re: #46 dog philosopher

apparently not without wading through plenty of metaphors

Ugh. I love C, but I can’t stand metaphors.

48 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 6:41:58pm

re: #43 dog philosopher

“Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. You have to pop the hood and figure out why smoke comes out of your car. … Or, in order to build the perfect mobile app, you must bypass Android’s comfortable Java coating and dig deep to find your true inner geek. You must create part of an app in the primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty language called C”

(“Android Application Development for Dummies”)

all my fellow primitive, nuts-and-bolts, down-and-dirty hairy chested C pgmrs stand up and make animal noises!

Ook, ook,

(former C ‘grammer)

49 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:44:14pm
50 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:46:29pm
51 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:47:15pm
52 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:49:36pm
the idea is to give readers some help in understanding complex stories like Obamacare, inequality and the problems in the U.S. real-estate market. The Upshot will “build on the excellent journalism the New York Times is already producing,” he said.

“We believe many people don’t understand the news as well as they would like. They want to grasp big, complicated stories… so well that they can explain the whys and hows of those stories to their friends, relatives and colleagues. We believe we can help readers get to that level of understanding by writing in a direct, plain-spoken way, the same voice we might use when writing an email to a friend. We’ll be conversational without being dumbed down.”

How about explaining 1st the stupidity of being anti-vaccine or a 9-11 truther, explaining the basics of how our government works or a course on basic geography? Journosplain to the moronic masses first then tell the folks who already read stuff what you think they don’t know about Obamacare and then the problems of the US real estate market.

I think these guys are totally oblivious to their market. Their potential readers already have a basic grasp of stuff, there is a vast sea of untapped stupidity that they aren’t even trying to reach. Too many dudebros fighting over the same small market isn’t going to work.

53 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:50:43pm

re: #51 Gus

We failed to find the famous squid ink ice cream place in Otaru, Japan this last trip.

It’s possible it was closed.

Seeing how it was January.

And snowing.

Not necessarily the big ice cream season.

54 Lidane  Apr 21, 2014 6:51:24pm
55 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 6:55:05pm
56 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 6:55:13pm

Meatsicle

57 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:55:16pm

re: #53 klys

We failed to find the famous squid ink ice cream place in Otaru, Japan this last trip.

It’s possible it was closed.

Seeing how it was January.

And snowing.

Not necessarily the big ice cream season.

You should see the looks I get when I make runs down to the gas station to pick up Ben & Jerry’s for the Mrs. Fish. In January.

58 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:56:10pm

re: #57 thedopefishlives

You should see the looks I get when I make runs down to the gas station to pick up Ben & Jerry’s for the Mrs. Fish. In January.

Otaru is also famous for their glassworking. It was a huge treat. Even if we didn’t get ice cream.

I was not sad about the ice cream. My husband was.

59 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 6:57:34pm

So is this an example of the uber exciting dudebro journalism to come?

Meta, belly button gazing, narcissistic drivel

60 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 6:57:45pm

re: #58 klys

Otaru is also famous for their glassworking. It was a huge treat. Even if we didn’t get ice cream.

I was not sad about the ice cream. My husband was.

When we were in Ireland, we got a free tour of the Waterford Crystal plant thanks to a generous desk clerk who wished us a happy honeymoon. It was fantastic. And yes, I brought home a piece that sits upon our mantel.

61 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 6:58:09pm
62 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 6:58:37pm

re: #47 thedopefishlives

Ugh. I love C, but I can’t stand metaphors.

“I never met a phor I didn’t like.”
—Fame

63 klys  Apr 21, 2014 6:58:50pm

re: #60 thedopefishlives

When we were in Ireland, we got a free tour of the Waterford Crystal plant thanks to a generous desk clerk who wished us a happy honeymoon. It was fantastic. And yes, I brought home a piece that sits upon our mantel.

I think getting down to Waterford is very, very high on the list to do in Ireland.

A lot of the stuff further afield will have to wait until the next trip when we rent a car, but Waterford …I am determined.

64 dog philosopher  Apr 21, 2014 6:59:02pm

re: #52 b.d.

They want to grasp big, complicated stories

there are too many sweaty, dirty fingerprints left on the news by baggers who grasp the big, complicated stories, try to strangle them, and refuse to let go

65 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 6:59:48pm

Imagination above their years—5th grade talent show.

Youtube Video

66 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 7:00:00pm

re: #63 klys

I think getting down to Waterford is very, very high on the list to do in Ireland.

A lot of the stuff further afield will have to wait until the next trip when we rent a car, but Waterford …I am determined.

We rented, and that was honestly a mistake. It was my first trip overseas and we were both overwhelmed by the jet lag and by trying to familiarize myself with getting around in a foreign country. That being said, we got to see so many beautiful things that an ordinary tour would’ve skipped.

67 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 7:00:17pm

re: #64 dog philosopher

there are too many sweaty, dirty fingerprints left on the news by baggers who grasp the big, complicated stories, try to strangle them, and refuse to let go

Newsbaggers.

:P

Me likee.

68 klys  Apr 21, 2014 7:01:18pm

re: #66 thedopefishlives

We rented, and that was honestly a mistake. It was my first trip overseas and we were both overwhelmed by the jet lag and by trying to familiarize myself with getting around in a foreign country. That being said, we got to see so many beautiful things that an ordinary tour would’ve skipped.

That’s where we’re passing on it this trip - we’ll know better what we’re getting into for the next one, and we’ll have knocked Dublin off the list to boot. I need to spend so much time in the countryside, but not when I’m tied to weekly homework assignments that require internet.

But oh the photos.

69 Lidane  Apr 21, 2014 7:01:35pm
70 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 21, 2014 7:02:36pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Why do you automatically fall for all media rebranding?

71 thedopefishlives  Apr 21, 2014 7:03:58pm

re: #68 klys

That’s where we’re passing on it this trip - we’ll know better what we’re getting into for the next one, and we’ll have knocked Dublin off the list to boot. I need to spend so much time in the countryside, but not when I’m tied to weekly homework assignments that require internet.

But oh the photos.

I am absolutely planning on going back. I would love to just spend a week - a real, honest-to-God week, not a jet-lagged disaster of a week - in Dublin. We would also like to swing up north, from whence the fish family originally hailed. But it was absolutely worth it to make it down to Blarney Castle and to kiss the famous stone, and to see the Irish countryside, and to experience the locals. The greatest story we brought home: We stopped in some podunk Irish town looking for food. We wandered up and down the main drag for about a mile or so, until we finally got desperate and popped into a pub. Everybody stared. We timidly walked up to the bartender and asked if they served any food. He stood, thoughtful, for a minute, then drawled in his thick accent, “No… But I could have my mom boil you up some cabbage in the back, if you’d like.”

We politely declined. But it makes a great story.

72 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:05:58pm
73 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:07:03pm
74 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:07:41pm
75 klys  Apr 21, 2014 7:08:58pm

re: #71 thedopefishlives

Gah. Next trip. Next trip. Next trip.

I’d love to do the Blarney Stone (I know, touristy) because one of the photos that’s really stuck with me after my grandfather passing away was one of him kissing the stone. But there were constraints on this trip that made getting out of Dublin for more than three days impossible, and at this point we’ve kind of decided it just makes sense to stay in Dublin and do what we can as day trips.

76 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:09:46pm

77 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:10:58pm
78 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 7:11:24pm

re: #73 Gus

Snopes? Liberal front. Blocked!!!

79 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 7:13:05pm

I’m old enough to consider ‘explanatory journalism’ redundant.

80 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:13:36pm
81 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:14:31pm
82 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 7:21:21pm

re: #75 klys

Gah. Next trip. Next trip. Next trip.

I’d love to do the Blarney Stone (I know, touristy) because one of the photos that’s really stuck with me after my grandfather passing away was one of him kissing the stone. But there were constraints on this trip that made getting out of Dublin for more than three days impossible, and at this point we’ve kind of decided it just makes sense to stay in Dublin and do what we can as day trips.

There is a persistent widespread rumor that young, tourist-revolted Irish kids routinely piss on the Blarney stone after hours. Drink might be involved.

83 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:21:36pm
84 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 7:25:22pm

re: #83 Gus

[Embedded content]

He was trying to remove a closed bottle from the pup’s mouth if memory serves.

85 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:26:24pm

re: #84 b_sharp

He was trying to remove a closed bottle from the pup’s mouth if memory serves.

Yep. Police report at link.

86 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:27:15pm
87 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 7:27:33pm

re: #84 b_sharp

He was trying to remove a closed bottle from the pup’s mouth if memory serves.

Are you an explanatory journalist?

88 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 7:30:28pm

re: #87 Decatur Deb

Are you an explanatory journalist?

Only on Mondays.

I’m a narcissistic, self aggrandizing, zealous, overbearing, motivated reasoning conspiracy theorist the rest of the time.

89 RealityBasedSteve  Apr 21, 2014 7:38:13pm

re: #88 b_sharp

Only on Mondays.

I’m a narcissistic, self aggrandizing, zealous, overbearing, motivated reasoning conspiracy theorist the rest of the time.

In all honesty, you do have some negative aspects also.

RBS

90 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 7:40:05pm

Bundybits:

It has been widely reported that Cliven Bundy’s family claims to have ranched in the Bunkerville area since the 1870s even though a federal judge held a different view of Bundy’s history.

Bundy repeated a similar claim Thursday when he told TheBlaze website: “My family has preemptive, adjudicated livestock water rights filed with the state of Nevada. They were established in 1877 when the first pioneers entered the valley.
…..snip……..
Clark County Recorder documents show the 160-acre Bunkerville ranch Bundy calls home was purchased by his parents, David and Bodel Bundy, from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt on Jan. 5, 1948.
8newsnow.com

91 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:41:11pm
92 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 7:46:24pm

re: #91 Gus

So that blew a big hole in their story. “Vagaries, whaddaya gonna do?”

93 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2014 7:46:45pm

re: #91 Gus

But it was explanatory!

94 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:48:42pm
95 Killgore Trout  Apr 21, 2014 7:49:02pm

re: #91 Gus

[Embedded content]

Lol. Awaiting the class action law suit from everyone in Kansas

96 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:53:00pm

Meanwhile, Reuters put out an upside down Florida SYG chart.

97 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:54:20pm

98 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 7:55:12pm

re: #96 Gus

Meanwhile, Reuters put out an upside down Florida SYG chart.

More explanatory that way.

99 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 7:56:51pm

re: #89 RealityBasedSteve

In all honesty, you do have some negative aspects also.

RBS

Well, only if we’re being really honest.

100 b.d.  Apr 21, 2014 7:56:56pm

UPDATE: IT TURNS OUT THAT MARVIN DID NOT KILL HIS WIFE AS ORIGINALLY REPORTED. WE WILL LEAVE THE STORY INTACT WITH PHOTOS AND HEADLINE BUT WILL ATTACH THIS UPDATE AND APOLOGIZE IF ANYONE WAS MISLEAD.

//

101 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 7:57:31pm

re: #98 Decatur Deb

More explanatory that way.

Nope. 0 for “X” always starts at the bottom.

102 palomino  Apr 21, 2014 7:58:34pm

re: #91 Gus

[Embedded content]

So if Wichita is the default setting that skewed the results, does that make Wichita the porn consumption capital of the whole country?

Look at Nevada. The state is already number one in all other sin categories, since over half the population lives in Vegas. AND now we find out they look at the most porn too.

Everyone in that state will burn in hell./

103 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 7:59:47pm

re: #101 Gus

Nope. 0 for “X” always starts at the bottom.

Depends on what you’re trying to explain.

104 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 8:00:27pm

105 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 8:02:02pm

Fixed.

106 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 8:02:54pm

re: #105 Gus

Fixed.

Spoils the effect.

107 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 8:03:14pm

Make that “y.” We don’t reinvent the wheel for graphs. Reuters is wrong.

108 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 8:03:43pm

re: #105 Gus

Fixed.

How? Both graphs depict the exact same data, inverted or not.

109 Decatur Deb  Apr 21, 2014 8:03:54pm

re: #107 Gus

Make that “y.” We don’t reinvent the wheel for graphs. Reuters is wrong.

Differently right.

110 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 8:04:01pm

re: #106 Decatur Deb

Spoils the effect.

It really looks like the creator learned his craft at Fox News Graphics School.

111 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 8:05:49pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

How? Both graphs depict the exact same data, inverted or not.

One is misleading given the way people are conditioned to understand histogram graphs.

112 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 8:13:21pm

The mercury’s dropping to an all time low! Summer in Texas.

113 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 8:17:19pm

re: #111 b_sharp

One is misleading given the way people are conditioned to understand histogram graphs.

I get that, I guess I’d be more prone to care if the integral wasn’t colored in. But yes, Reuters is in the business of speaking to a gigantic population of stupids so conventions do matter and should be adhered to.

114 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 8:21:50pm

re: #113 goddamnedfrank

I get that, I guess I’d be more prone to care if the integral wasn’t colored in. But yes, Reuters is in the business of speaking to a gigantic population of stupids so conventions do matter and should be adhered to.

Graphs were developed to give an easily understood intuitive representation of stats so people not versed in stats could follow along. Used as they were above looks like an attempt to obfuscate. At least to me.

115 Timothy Watson  Apr 21, 2014 8:26:10pm

Certainly gives a different meaning to “fauxtography”, doesn’t it? Or should it be “fauxography”?

116 Belafon  Apr 21, 2014 8:26:21pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Because we are trained to think of graphs as rising from the bottom for positive numbers. The original graph feels like it was done explicitly to hide something, in this case the steep increase in deaths right after stand-your-ground was introduced.

117 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 8:33:24pm

re: #114 b_sharp

Graphs were developed to give an easily understood intuitive representation of stats so people not versed in stats could follow along. Used as they were above looks like an attempt to obfuscate. At least to me.

I deal in graphs and such all the effing time, and that graph is a good example of bad data presentation. It’s counterintuitive. When you first look at it you think that the institution of SYG laws preceded a dramatic drop in gun deaths, whereas quite the opposite is true.

We have some data - Real Time PCR data - where in the readout, delta Ct, gets larger as copy number goes down. So since each additional cycle means half as many starting copies, we raise 2 to the power of - delta Ct, so that the graph is more self-explanatory.

Inverting the Y-axis for an artsy effect is lame.

118 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 8:35:23pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

How? Both graphs depict the exact same data, inverted or not.

Which one intuitively tells you gun deaths rose after SYG?

119 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 8:42:01pm

Is it my breath?

120 b_sharp  Apr 21, 2014 8:43:10pm

re: #119 GeneJockey

Is it my breath?

Fraid so.

It wasn’t baited correctly.

121 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 8:43:40pm

Oy.

122 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 8:44:59pm

re: #51 Gus

Japanese have the most interesting foods.

I miss it.

Well, most of it.

たこアイス not being one.

123 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 8:45:13pm
124 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 21, 2014 8:45:33pm

re: #97 Gus

[Embedded image]

The Mirror tweaks Reuters nose for printing the upside down chart.
ampp3d.mirror.co.uk

125 Dark_Falcon  Apr 21, 2014 8:45:44pm

re: #118 GeneJockey

Which one intuitively tells you gun deaths rose after SYG?

The problem there is that not enough information is given to draw a causative conclusion, especially given the label. If what is depicted is a murder, then obviously the Stand Your Ground law did not exonerate the shooter. And if the shooting was ruled justifiable, then it should not be listed as a murder.

Reuters headlines the graph with “Gun Deaths in Florida” but then the subtitle line is “Number of murders committed using firearms”. The problem is that not all gun deaths are murders. A bank robber shot to death by the bank’s security guards is a death by gunshot, but nobody here would call it a murder.

I therefore argue that the Reuters graph is seriously questionable.

126 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 21, 2014 8:47:16pm

re: #122 freetoken

Japanese have the most interesting foods.

I miss it.

Well, most of it.

たこアイス not being one.

.
I don’t remember seeing that when I was there in 86. I think that is … fortunate… O_o

127 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 8:50:50pm

re: #116 Belafon

Most people, even if in the end are poor in geography, are taught to read maps with “up” being north, or forward.

So when it comes to viewing graphs we tend to carry over this idea.

IIRC, it was sometime around 3rd grade that we were introduced to the idea of maps and graphs. By Social Studies classes in 4th and 5th grade there were more.

Used in many different sciences is the vertical, or depth, plot, and this can throw some people when they see one for the first time. With the independent axis being vertical, with the base at the top. Oceanography uses these types of things, as does geology.

On that Florida murders graph, I really can’t see a good reason to plot it with increasing murders toward the bottom (as read by humans.)

128 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 8:51:02pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

The problem there is that not enough information is given to draw a causative conclusion, especially given the label. If what is depicted is a murder, then obviously the Stand Your Ground law did not exonerate the shooter. And if the shooting was ruled justifiable, then it should not be listed as a murder.

Reuters headlines the graph with “Gun Deaths in Florida” but then the subtitle line is “Number of murders committed using firearms”. The problem is that not all gun deaths are murders. A bank robber shot to death by the bank’s security guards is a death by gunshot, but nobody here would call it a murder.

I therefore argue that the Reuters graph is seriously questionable.

You don’t need a causative conclusion, and you’re not gonna get it from a graph. The data say gun deaths rose in Florida after SYG was passed, but the original inverted-Y graph obscures that. THAT is the point of all this, not whether it’s properly described in the text.

129 Ming  Apr 21, 2014 8:59:38pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

…”Explanatory journalism?”…

The word “explanatory” should be redundant. Are there other fields, or another kind of journalism, where things are NOT supposed to be communicated well, explained well?

“Explanatory journalism” is like “clearly-written user manual”, “high-awareness surgery”, or “accurate weather prediction”.

130 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 8:59:38pm

re: #116 Belafon

The original graph feels like it was done explicitly to hide something, in this case the steep increase in deaths right after stand-your-ground was introduced.

Here’s the headline that accompanied that original graphs.

This Chart Shows An Alarming Rise In Florida Gun Deaths After ‘Stand Your Ground’ Was Enacted

So yeah, absent any context I can see how you might feel that way, but in the context it was actually presented I think the claim of intent to deceive is baseless.

re: #118 GeneJockey

Which one intuitively tells you gun deaths rose after SYG?

Both. I don’t interpret graphs by shape. I always look at axis labels and numbers.

131 Dark_Falcon  Apr 21, 2014 8:59:38pm

re: #128 GeneJockey

You don’t need a causative conclusion, and you’re not gonna get it from a graph. The data say gun deaths rose in Florida after SYG was passed, but the original inverted-Y graph obscures that. THAT is the point of all this, not whether it’s properly described in the text.

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

132 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 9:00:05pm

The graph source says “Florida Department of Law Enforcement”.

But from their website:
fdle.state.fl.us
it’s not clear to me from where this data can be mined.

133 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 9:01:42pm

Do I think the original graphic artist was trying to decieve? No.

134 klys  Apr 21, 2014 9:08:15pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

The last year on the graph appears to be 2012, number of murders 721.

Matches up quite well with the data from here.

135 Kragar  Apr 21, 2014 9:08:15pm
136 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 9:08:15pm
137 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 9:08:15pm
138 klys  Apr 21, 2014 9:10:04pm

Anyway, time to cook tasty dinner. VB’s pasta salad on the menu, once again.

139 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 21, 2014 9:11:41pm

re: #138 klys

Anyway, time to cook tasty dinner. VB’s pasta salad on the menu, once again.

Must have missed that - could you post her recipe?

140 jaunte  Apr 21, 2014 9:11:54pm
141 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 9:12:41pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

Not for the purpose of this discussion, which is about why the graph is badly designed.

142 klys  Apr 21, 2014 9:13:23pm

re: #139 William Barnett-Lewis

Must have missed that - could you post her recipe?

Here’s the original entry. :)

143 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 9:18:18pm

re: #130 goddamnedfrank

Both. I don’t interpret graphs by shape. I always look at axis labels and numbers.

Well, then you’re kind of the odd man out. A graph is meant to convey the information intuitively, hence they follow certain conventions, like that you don’t have an increasing value going down.

144 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 9:18:18pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

Given the law in question and the way it whitewashes away any criminality, why would SYG shootings show up as “murders?”

What we really want are “violent death” statistics, if we can find them. At least one FL SYG case involved a guy who ran down a suspected thief and stabbing him in the chest. Then he went home, hid the weapon and didn’t report the incident to police. When police caught up to him, because the stabbing was caught on video, he initially lied. When shown the video he gave up the knife and confessed. It was ruled stand your ground case because the stabber claimed the thief swung a bag of car stereos at him.

145 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 9:21:11pm

One of the hamsters is goldbricking. Posts take forever to upload.

146 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 9:21:28pm

Except that one, of course.

147 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 9:22:32pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

Here’s what I was trying to get at:

Note: Justifiable homicides are not included in the summary totals reflected on the Uniform Crime Reports Form, but are included on the Supplemental Homicide Report. Justifiable homicides are not counted as murders.

So SYG killings wouldn’t show up in the “murder” column at all. The law whitewashes itself.

148 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Apr 21, 2014 9:22:42pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Huh. Were security guards empowered by a law that has no impact on them and decide they are now going to mow down the bad guys that rob banks and fuck up the data. And even if they counted the good guys with guns killing the bad guys with guns as murders -and I doubt they did but I can’t say for sure - then shouldn’t there be a net drop anyway as they dissuaded future bad guys? But you should have checked that before casually entering that into the fold.

There’s plenty of data out there on SYG, and there’s nothing good as far as I can tell. You can play “on-one-hand..” on it, but everyone, on both sides, knows exactly what the law is about.

149 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 9:25:15pm

re: #147 goddamnedfrank

Changed strikethrough to bold.

150 GeneJockey  Apr 21, 2014 9:26:49pm

re: #147 goddamnedfrank

Here’s what I was trying to get at:

So SYG killings wouldn’t show up in the “murder” column at all. The law whitewashes itself.

Leaving only the fresh scent of pine…

151 Ming  Apr 21, 2014 9:33:26pm

I often disagree with Andrew Sullivan, but things like this keep me coming back to his blog: a great tribute by Sasha Sagan to her parents, Ann Druyan and Carl Sagan.

To borrow a concept from The Wrath of Khan, how incredibly human.

152 sagehen  Apr 21, 2014 9:34:19pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

But which is the graph measuring, gun deaths or murders? The distinction matters, given the effect of the law in question.

The “distinction” is a farce — according to the Florida courts, George Zimmerman didn’t murder Trayvon Martin.

153 Eclectic Cyborg  Apr 21, 2014 9:35:45pm

re: #140 jaunte

And that’s why I won’t be living in Vegas anytime soon. The city could be only months away from a major environmental disaster.

154 Political Atheist  Apr 21, 2014 9:40:41pm

Late night Page

Some Make Paper Airplanes. I Made a Hydrogen/Paper Rocket

Youtube Video

155 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 9:42:24pm

You’d think from a sociological perspective it might be instructive to keep track of all Stand Your Ground statistics. So that all assaults covered under the law are tabulated, along with all homicides. If there’s an increase in justifiable assaults and homicides a responsible society might ask itself, “Hey, what’s up with all the fuckers ganking each other legally?”

But FL doesn’t play that way. The police do file reports on justifiable homicides, but the only purpose seems to be so that they don’t publish statistics for those cases. This is fundamentally a fucked up way to ensure public safety, by favoring appearances over reality.

156 gwangung  Apr 21, 2014 9:46:08pm

re: #155 goddamnedfrank

You’d think from a sociological perspective it might be instructive to keep track of all Stand Your Ground statistics. So that all assaults covered under the law are tabulated, along with all homicides. If there’s an increase in justifiable assaults and homicides a responsible society might ask itself, “Hey, what’s up with all the fuckers ganking each other legally?”

But FL doesn’t play that way. The police do file reports on justifiable homicides, but the only purpose seems to be so that they don’t publish statistics for those cases. This is fundamentally a fucked up way to ensure public safety, by favoring appearances over reality.

And the NRA and Republicans will move heaven and earth to PREVENT such statistics to be measured.

157 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 9:51:35pm
158 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 9:52:20pm

Good luck. With, that.

159 klys  Apr 21, 2014 9:57:22pm

How to feel like the shittiest human being on the face of the planet.

Step 1: Somehow have a stray kitten turn up in your backyard. Probably a female in heat.

Step 2: Listen to her pitiful meowing because you can’t let her inside, but she can see you and the other cats inside and wants to be with other cats.

Step 3: Feel like the shittiest human ever.

I’ve got food and water out there for her, along with a box and some fabric to curl up with, if that’s what she wants. She seems pretty content to stick around since I’m feeding her, and we asked the lawn folks to ignore the backyard today in an effort to not scare her off. Tomorrow I’m going to call one of the TNR programs around here - preferably the one that would also check microchip status and evaluate her for possible socialization/rehoming, because she seems young enough and social enough to be adoptable.

I still feel like a shitty human. :( I am so a cat person.

160 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 9:57:42pm

re: #140 jaunte

What many people may not realize is that bump in water level in 2011 was due to the record rainfall the previous winter, when we had that “river of water” from the mid-Pacific. That particular precipitation season broke records all over the Southwest. It is unlikely to be repeated any time soon.

Part of the reason the water level at Mead is not lower right now is that the upstream Lake Powell has been greatly drained, in an attempt to flush out material and redeposit the material along the banks (to restore them.)

Lake Powell is very low, and the snowfall so far this year is not going to be enough to make it go up significantly.

Meanwhile, today was a very warm and dry day here in San Diego. We are way behind in our rainfall the past couple of years. The loquat trees are sad - today I picked three from my favorite-flavored one. And that is all there was (at least at lower levels) - three tiny fruit. I’ve come across some loquat trees with no fruit.

I haz sad.

161 Political Atheist  Apr 21, 2014 9:59:48pm

re: #160 freetoken

Hopefully next years El Nino will be significant enough to help. *crossed fingers*

162 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 10:01:46pm

The Lake Powell graph has had to get new axes, because this year went off the chart on the old graph:

graphs.water-data.com

Oh, and in that graph, down is bad.

163 Political Atheist  Apr 21, 2014 10:01:55pm

re: #159 klys

So with you there. Kudos for stepping up where ya can. We all have our limits, my place is at capacity with 3. All rescues.

164 Political Atheist  Apr 21, 2014 10:03:53pm

re: #6 Gus

[Embedded content]

Looks like a toy.


A Dolly Llama.

165 klys  Apr 21, 2014 10:05:33pm

re: #163 Political Atheist

So with you there. Kudos for stepping up where ya can. We all have our limits, my place is at capacity with 3. All rescues.

That’s what we’re at, and while I would love to have a 4th, it won’t work in the current house.

This girl is so tiny, it breaks my heart. I figure she’s maybe 6 months old. Beautiful gray (with dappling in the light!) and a white tuxedo patch and paws.

She’s skittish - I’ve gotten her to smell me and that’s about it - but doesn’t seem afraid of the house or anything like that, and hell, one of ours can be equally skittish when he feels like it, so I figure she’s a stray.

Worst case, I’ll get her fixed and vaccinated and then release back …and work on setting up a protected food and water and place to get out of the rain area. Because I am a sucker.

166 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 10:07:24pm
167 Gus  Apr 21, 2014 10:08:36pm

REM

168 goddamnedfrank  Apr 21, 2014 10:34:46pm

Probably the best take so far on the Game of Thrones controversy:

169 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 21, 2014 10:49:06pm

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

I am out of the loop there. Only on episode 3 of season 2 now. I’m making a concerted effort not to find out what happens in the more recent seasons. Jaime Lannister’s haircut, though, is probably not a spoiler.

170 jonhendry  Apr 21, 2014 10:50:48pm

re: #130 goddamnedfrank

Here’s the headline that accompanied that original graphs.

That isn’t the original headline. That’s from the Business Insider article about the bad graph, not the Reuters piece that graph came from. I haven’t been able to find that.

171 sagehen  Apr 21, 2014 11:16:14pm

re: #169 wheat-doggha — oo bird outside my window

I am out of the loop there. Only on episode 3 of season 2 now. I’m making a concerted effort not to find out what happens in the more recent seasons. Jaime Lannister’s haircut, though, is probably not a spoiler.

temptation.

George R R Martin is the worst wedding planner ever.

Arya kicks ass. So does Danaerys. I don’t even like femslash, but that’s a pairing I’d read.

Season 3 has eleventy billion hours of graphic torture.

Joffrey gets what he deserves.

172 freetoken  Apr 21, 2014 11:54:26pm
173 Single-handed sailor  Apr 22, 2014 12:24:23am

It’s not the Loch Ness monster.

174 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 1:10:35am

re: #173 Single-handed sailor

It’s not the Loch Ness monster.

It is if you want it to be, and nobody can convince you otherwise if you don’t let them…

175 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 1:12:58am

re: #159 klys

Ex once picked up a poor stray “kitten” she saw roaming about the village. Took her in for a checkup, turns out she was no kitten, she had already been a mother, was probably just undersized because she was so malnourished. Luckily, we found a home for her in the village.

176 Aqua Obama  Apr 22, 2014 1:18:59am

Holocaust Memorial in Crimea defaced:

Image: Blz7sNCCIAIaNE6.jpg

177 EdDantes  Apr 22, 2014 2:05:47am

re: #176 Aqua Obama

Everything seems to spin back to the Jews. I don’t understand the hatred.

178 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 2:31:40am

re: #177 EdDantes

Everything seems to spin back to the Jews. I don’t understand the hatred.

It is just a manifestation of masive STOOPID

This will be written off as a “provocation” by both sides. We can only look aghast at it.

179 freetoken  Apr 22, 2014 2:31:53am
180 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 2:41:55am

re: #177 EdDantes

Everything seems to spin back to the Jews. I don’t understand the hatred.

There’s plenty of other groups that get hated on too, many of whom got hated on so much they’re now gone, or reduced even farther from the mainstream. The Roma, for example, have been persecuted for centuries, like the jews, and are in many ways worse off. That you hear less about them and the hatred directed against them is partially a sign of how cut off they are from mainstream society.

But in general I’d say the hatred for Jews stems from thousands of years of Christian oppression of the Jews, virulent anti-semitic tracts from both Catholics and Protestants, and continually revived conspiracy theories about Jews spread by nationalists and racists who have felt threatened by a multicultural society.

181 EdDantes  Apr 22, 2014 2:50:54am

re: #180 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You could include the Muslims on that list.

182 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 3:09:56am

We see what happens when you try and be successful and not white.

Seems that conservatives should be proud of Obama for at least one thing: he is proof that the American Dream really can really work for everyone- someone from a non-privileged background who got where he is though hard work and determination…but instead he is reviled.

183 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 3:41:06am

re: #181 EdDantes

You could include the Muslims on that list.

Muslim anti-semitism is very different from Christian anti-semitism, and its current form is a much more recent phenomenon. Historically, Jews and Muslims have had much better relations than Jews and Christians. There were many Muslim societies where Jews were not only tolerated but integrated; there were very few such Christian societies. And as far as massacring Jews, Christians hold the unbeatable all-time record. It’s important to remember things like the Jews fighting alongside the Muslims against Christians throughout most of their concurrent history.

184 Timothy Watson  Apr 22, 2014 4:00:50am

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

Probably the best take so far on the Game of Thrones controversy:

[Embedded content]

I tried arguing with some people at ThinkProgress over that particular controversy before I realized I was tilting at windmills, especially when people want to selectively quote Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and act like the scene from book had no problems with it.

185 freetoken  Apr 22, 2014 4:01:34am

A crowd-sourced effort that produced the following video hasn’t gotten as much attention as the creators probably hoped. Still, they put some work into it:

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

The grand arc over the 30 minutes or so gets lost, I think, and there are some contradictions here.

There’s naivete too… but that could just be my curmudgeon doomer coming through.

I do object to the constant invocation of the word “science”. This is bordering on the magick-word phenomenon in religion - e.g., when someone has to utter the magick name “Jesus” every other sentence to make themselves feel better.

186 freetoken  Apr 22, 2014 4:48:51am

A Harris poll released yesterday (dated today) that didn’t get much attention:

Two-Thirds of Americans Want Government Policies Introduced to Reduce Economic Inequality

Here’s a table from the release:

I find it ironic, and bit troublesome, that President Obama and the current DP leadership has made the last item on the list their priority.

They are afraid of addressing the others?

187 Dark_Falcon  Apr 22, 2014 4:52:01am

re: #183 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Muslim anti-semitism is very different from Christian anti-semitism, and its current form is a much more recent phenomenon. Historically, Jews and Muslims have had much better relations than Jews and Christians. There were many Muslim societies where Jews were not only tolerated but integrated; there were very few such Christian societies. And as far as massacring Jews, Christians hold the unbeatable all-time record. It’s important to remember things like the Jews fighting alongside the Muslims against Christians throughout most of their concurrent history.

Quick post:

That having been said, Jews were generally treated as second-class subjects in Muslim societies, and were sometimes subject to persecution there as well. It’s true that the pre-1900 Islamic world had better record regarding Jews than did Christendom, but it still was badly flawed.

Just an add-on, not trying to contradict you.

188 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 4:53:55am

re: #186 freetoken

I find it ironic, and bit troublesome, that President Obama and the current DP leadership has made the last item on the list their priority.

They are afraid of addressing the others?

it is also a matter of what they can actually change influence. The Obama administration cannot directly influence globalization, is trying to improve schools with Common Core but is bucking up against opposition from the states, and he has his hands tied by the Supreme Court when it comes to campaign finance reform.

189 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 5:03:46am

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

Quick post:

That having been said, Jews were generally treated as second-class subjects in Muslim societies, and were sometimes subject to persecution there as well. It’s true that the pre-1900 Islamic world had better record regarding Jews than did Christendom, but it still was badly flawed.

Just an add-on, not trying to contradict you.

Seems a bit of an unnecessary add-on, since you didn’t say anything that I didn’t.

And it’s not just the pre-1900 Islamic world. The post 1900 Islamic world still had a better record on treatment of Jews than ‘Christendom’ They didn’t, for example, commit genocide against them as the Nazis did.

190 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 22, 2014 5:04:21am
191 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 5:18:33am
192 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 5:20:15am

Ouch, just got done watching the clip from last night’s Daily Show, watching Stewart take Hannity behind the woodshed for his blatant hypocrisy in support of Bundy. When you make Glenn Beck seem like the voice of reason, then you’ve gone over the fucking edge.

193 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 5:23:55am

re: #192 Targetpractice

That was an epic takedown by JS and TDS.

194 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 22, 2014 5:25:13am

re: #189 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Is it fair to say most Middle Eastern Muslims don’t have problems with Jews, but they have a lot of problems with Israel?

195 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 5:26:07am

re: #193 Dr. Matt

That was an epic takedown by JS and TDS.

It was. And the thing is, most of the points John hit are ones I’ve been bashing wingnuts over the head with for over a week now. When OWS was occupying a public park, we were told repeatedly about the sanctity of property rights. But Bundy helps himself to several hundred thousand square miles of federal land and what do we hear? “The government shouldn’t own that!”

196 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 5:31:50am
re: #195 Targetpractice

But Bundy helps himself to several hundred thousand square miles of federal land and what do we hear? “The government shouldn’t own that!”

Slight correction:

“Bundy helps himself to several hundred thousand square miles of federal land for over 20 years……”

197 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 5:35:18am

re: #196 Dr. Matt

Slight correction:

“Bundy helps himself to several hundred thousand square miles of federal land for over 20 years……”

Good point.

I can’t help but imagine that the same fuckheads who are cheering on Bundy would have been cheering on the cops if the OWS folks had been armed to the teeth and threatened to shoot any cops who tried to remove them from the land they were squatting on.

198 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 22, 2014 5:36:52am

Good morning Lizards.

I saw in the previous thread how the conservatives in some of the western states are meeting to discuss trying to get control of Federal lands in those states. Along with claims about how the Federal government is unable to properly take care of those lands currently.

And then I wonder in a rhetorical fashion what the cause might be that is preventing the USDA and BLM from being able to get budgetary funds allocated in order to properly manage the lands in question.

199 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 22, 2014 5:45:31am

re: #198 Feline Fearless Leader

Good morning Lizards.

I saw in the previous thread how the conservatives in some of the western states are meeting to discuss trying to get control of Federal lands in those states. Along with claims about how the Federal government is unable to properly take care of those lands currently.

And then I wonder in a rhetorical fashion what the cause might be that is preventing the USDA and BLM from being able to get budgetary funds allocated in order to properly manage the lands in question.

The bolded part, translated from conservative-speak, means, “The federal government is preventing us from doing what we want with those lands.”

They see all that open land and want to exploit it, regardless of sustainability or environmental damage. Federal management prevents that from happening.

200 A Mom Anon  Apr 22, 2014 5:50:31am

Has Justanotherhuman checked back in about her son yet? I ran through this thread and didn’t see her. I’ll check back after chores and dog walkies. I hope all is well, or at least better.

201 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 5:52:44am

re: #171 sagehen

GRR Martin is a Rolling Stones fan.

Re: Joffrey: You can’t always get what you want, but sometimes you might find you get what you need.

Re: Jaime: Sympathy for the Devil

Re: Tyrion: Satisfaction (you can’t get no)

Re: Tywin: Heart of Stone

Danerys: Jumpin’ Jack Flash (it’s a gas, gas, gas).

202 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 5:53:23am

re: #199 wheat-doggha — oo bird outside my window

The bolded part, translated from conservative-speak, means, “The federal government is preventing us from doing what we want with those lands.”

They see all that open land and want to exploit it, regardless of sustainability or environmental damage. Federal management prevents that from happening.

They’ve been trying to argue such for years now with respect to national parks, largely because said parks are either on or near resources that private businesses would love to exploit. Case in point, the Grand Canyon sits either on or near a large deposit of uranium, which the energy companies have wanted to dig up for years.

203 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 22, 2014 5:57:47am

re: #202 Targetpractice

They’ve been trying to argue such for years now with respect to national parks, largely because said parks are either on or near resources that private businesses would love to exploit. Case in point, the Grand Canyon sits either on or near a large deposit of uranium, which the energy companies have wanted to dig up for years.

I also have the impression that state-level legislators and departmental officials are easier for industrial or mining concerns to “buy” in sufficient number than ones at the national level.

205 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 6:00:32am

re: #204 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Dude needs to plug in his phone.

206 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 6:01:27am

re: #203 Feline Fearless Leader

I also have the impression that state-level legislators and departmental officials are easier for industrial or mining concerns to “buy” in sufficient number than ones at the national level.

Ayep. Cheaper to convince 51 state legislators that it’s in their own personal interest to approve a mine in their own backyards than it is to convince 51 federal legislators that it’s in their own personal interest to approve a mine in somebody else’s backyard.

207 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 22, 2014 6:03:27am

re: #203 Feline Fearless Leader

I also have the impression that state-level legislators and departmental officials are easier for industrial or mining concerns to “buy” in sufficient number than ones at the national level.

Some of those state-level officials OWN industrial or mining concerns.

208 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 6:09:32am

re: #202 Targetpractice

Arches and Canyonlands sits astride major natural resource deposits. Uranium is what led to the development of Moab as a boom town, and the town’s still dealing with the repercussions of decades of uranium mining there - a DOE cleanup site just up the road from the Arches entrance to eliminate millions of tons of tailings that are contaminating ground water and pose a threat to the Colorado River adjacent to the site.

There’s oil/gas drilling in the area too -fracking and pipeline construction is prevalent across the area, and there’s also a potash plant next to Canyonlands that provides 10% of the nation’s potash supply annually.

Near the Grand Canyon you’ve got similar resources, and there’s always an interest in rare earth minerals as well.

209 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 22, 2014 6:10:12am
210 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 6:21:57am

re: #194 wheat-doggha — oo bird outside my window

Is it fair to say most Middle Eastern Muslims don’t have problems with Jews, but they have a lot of problems with Israel?

Nope. Middle Eastern Muslims tend to be wildly anti semitic.

211 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 22, 2014 6:23:02am

re: #210 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Nope. Middle Eastern Muslims tend to be wildly anti semitic.

Ah, OK.

212 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 6:25:21am

re: #211 wheat-doggha — oo bird outside my window

Ah, OK.

It’s often of the ‘have never even met a Jew in real life’ variety, though.

213 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 6:27:06am
214 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 6:27:30am

re: #212 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s often of the ‘have never even met a Jew in real life’ variety, though.

If your education and cultural identity have taught you to hate Jews and Israel, it is hard to turn out otherwise…

215 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2014 6:27:44am

Here, for example, is a very interesting poll:

Image: 2011-Muslim-West-03.png

It shows Palestinians as more concerned about Islamic extremism than Israelis are. Which makes sense, since Islamic extremism is more dangerous to Palestinians.

But:

Image: 2011-Muslim-West-04.png

The views of Muslims in the Middle East of Jews are abysmally poor.

216 Ian G.  Apr 22, 2014 6:31:35am

re: #86 Gus

The Smithsonian has a pretty handy page that shows which volcanoes around the world are rumbling at any given moment. Needless to say, Ararat is not one of them:

volcano.si.edu

217 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 6:37:00am

re: #216 Ian G.

The Smithsonian has a pretty handy page that shows which volcanoes around the world are rumbling at any given moment. Needless to say, Ararat is not one of them:

volcano.si.edu

Cool site…Alaska’s peninsula is just one big fiery dick waiting to jab Putin in the ass.

218 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 6:40:50am

re: #217 darthstar

Cool site…Alaska’s peninsula is just one big fiery dick waiting to jab Putin in the ass.
[Embedded image]

Unless he pokes us with his Kamchatka first…

219 Mattand  Apr 22, 2014 6:41:25am

re: #127 freetoken

On that Florida murders graph, I really can’t see a good reason to plot it with increasing murders toward the bottom (as read by humans.)

The designer who created said they were going for a “blood dripping down the graph” effect. Needless to say, not the best choice for readibility.

220 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 22, 2014 6:45:29am

re: #217 darthstar

Cool site…Alaska’s peninsula is just one big fiery dick waiting to jab Putin in the ass.
[Embedded image]

A lovely arc of volcanic activity indicating a subduction zone. Pacific plate taking a dive right there I believe.

221 Ian G.  Apr 22, 2014 6:48:12am

re: #217 darthstar

Cool site…Alaska’s peninsula is just one big fiery dick waiting to jab Putin in the ass.
[Embedded image]

I wonder how much of the volcanic activity in the US over the past century was contributed by our two non-contiguous states, Alaska and Hawaii. It’s gotta be well over 90%, right? I mean, the lower 48 has had St. Helens, and Lassen Peak way back in 1915, and that’s it. Every other volcano down here has been silent for over a century.

222 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 22, 2014 6:48:40am
223 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 6:50:52am

I knew I should have bought Alcoa stock…foil futures are looking good!

224 Lidane  Apr 22, 2014 6:52:26am

re: #197 Targetpractice

Good point.

I can’t help but imagine that the same fuckheads who are cheering on Bundy would have been cheering on the cops if the OWS folks had been armed to the teeth and threatened to shoot any cops who tried to remove them from the land they were squatting on.

Of course they would. They’d also be calling for drone strikes and mass arrests and deportations if Bundy was a Latino dude named Benitez.

I’m also wondering if these Bundy yahoos are suddenly fans of Leonard Peltier. My guess is no.

225 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 6:56:50am

re: #221 Ian G.

I wonder how much of the volcanic activity in the US over the past century was contributed by our two non-contiguous states, Alaska and Hawaii. It’s gotta be well over 90%, right? I mean, the lower 48 has had St. Helens, and Lassen Peak way back in 1915, and that’s it. Every other volcano down here has been silent for over a century.

According to that site, Alaska makes up for about 70%.

volcano.si.edu

The 2500-km-long Aleutian arc is a chain of large calc-alkaline stratovolcanoes and impressive calderas. This largely uninhabited arc, whose western end lies across the International Date Line and reaches within 900 km of Kamchatka, is responsible for nearly all the historical volcanism of Alaska. Alaska possesses more than half the Holocene volcanoes in the United States, but has produced nearly 70% of its historical eruptions, including many of its most explosive.

226 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 6:57:17am

re: #224 Lidane

Of course they would. They’d also be calling for drone strikes and mass arrests and deportations if Bundy was a Latino dude named Benitez.

I’m also wondering if these Bundy yahoos are suddenly fans of Leonard Peltier. My guess is no.

I’m also wondering how many of them are former or current “Minute Men” who think a rancher shooting an “illegal” he catches on his property is justified because he’s protecting his land.

227 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 7:15:03am

I went and done killed the thread again. Oh well, guess I better go grab my shovel…

228 Lidane  Apr 22, 2014 7:16:51am

*sigh*

229 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 7:17:21am

This should be interesting
Supreme Court Will Hear Challenge To Ohio Ban On Campaign Lies

The U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments Tuesday testing whether states can make it a crime to lie about candidates during an election campaign.

At issue is an Ohio law that imposes potential jail time or a fine for the first offense, and possibly loss of the right to vote for anyone convicted twice. The case before the court, however, involves not a person, but an organization.

230 Eventual Carrion  Apr 22, 2014 7:21:28am

re: #229 Killgore Trout

This should be interesting
Supreme Court Will Hear Challenge To Ohio Ban On Campaign Lies

Then they should loosen up the libel and defamation laws and burden of proof to convict of those laws. If a lying sack of shit is going to be able to lie about you, then you should have some recourse.

231 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 7:24:27am

re: #228 Lidane

*sigh*

[Embedded content]

We all knew it was coming eventually. After all, as wingnuts like to mindlessly intone, “racism is gone!”

232 HappyWarrior  Apr 22, 2014 7:27:08am

re: #231 Targetpractice

We all knew it was coming eventually. After all, as wingnuts like to mindlessly intone, “racism is gone!”

except to rich white males, that’s worse than Jim Crow and the Holocaust combined.

233 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 7:27:23am

re: #231 Targetpractice

We all knew it was coming eventually. After all, as wingnuts like to mindlessly intone, “racism is gone!”

It’s not gone, it has just all gone over to the Democrat Party.

/

234 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 7:34:21am

re: #230 Eventual Carrion

Then they should loosen up the libel and defamation laws and burden of proof to convict of those laws. If a lying sack of shit is going to be able to lie about you, then you should have some recourse.

I’m still trying to absorb all of the implications. Here’s a more detailed article
Argument preview: Attack ads and the First Amendment

235 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 7:34:37am

re: #228 Lidane

*sigh*

[Embedded content]

Minor correction: The decision was 6-2. Kagan stayed out of both discussion and decision.

It’s also one of the ugly decisions. The Opinion of the Court (by Kennedy) only has two justices joining it. The reason it carries is that enough concurring opinions were written and joined that it carried. (Sotomayor wrote the dissent with Ginsberg joining.)

237 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 7:48:45am
An appropriate thought for Earth Day.
Myth: we have to save the earth. Frankly, the earth doesn’t need to be saved. Nature doesn’t give a hoot if human beings are here or not. The planet has survived cataclysmic and catastrophic changes for millions upon millions of years. Over that time, it is widely believed, 99 percent of all species have come and gone while the planet has remained. Saving the environment is really about saving our environment — making it safe for ourselves, our children, and the world as we know it. If more people saw the issue as one of saving themselves, we would probably see increased motivation and commitment to actually do so. -Robert M. Lilienfeld, management consultant and author (b. 1953) and William L. Rathje, archaeologist and author (b. 1945)
238 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 7:49:56am

re: #231 Targetpractice

We all knew it was coming eventually. After all, as wingnuts like to mindlessly intone, “racism is gone!”

I think the fact that the amount of non-white babies born is now equal to the amount of white babies born is freaking-out the Whackos.

239 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 22, 2014 7:50:01am

I am in my third day of allergy misery. Guessing this is why:

240 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 7:54:21am

re: #239 Backwoods_Sleuth

I am in my third day of allergy misery. Guessing this is why:

[Embedded content]

If you use a neti pot, modify the solution by adding a tablespoon of witch hazel to each pot.

241 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 7:55:30am

re: #239 Backwoods_Sleuth

I am in my third day of allergy misery. Guessing this is why:

[Embedded content]

yes, I get the allergy counts thru email everyday. It usually confirms what I already know, but is helpful. Sometimes I find I am actually sick, because the counts are too low for how I feel.

242 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 22, 2014 7:55:51am

re: #240 kirkspencer

If you use a neti pot, modify the solution by adding a tablespoon of witch hazel to each pot.

I can’t use a neti pot, my brain insists that it’s too much like waterboarding.

243 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 7:56:02am

re: #240 kirkspencer

If you use a neti pot, modify the solution by adding a tablespoon of witch hazel to each pot.

I use a drop of hydrogen peroxide.

Yes, the neti pot really, really helps

244 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 7:56:29am

re: #242 Backwoods_Sleuth

I can’t use a neti pot, my brain insists that it’s too much like waterboarding.

Saline Spray —cheap, cheap from Walgreens.

Not as good as the neti pot, but still very helpful.

245 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 7:57:36am

re: #237 FemNaziBitch

We need to “save” it in the sense of keeping it habitable for the human race.

246 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 8:02:23am

re: #243 FemNaziBitch

I use a drop of hydrogen peroxide.

Yes, the neti pot really, really helps

The thing about witch hazel is that it’s an astringent which helps dry up the very wet sinuses.

I have other tinctures and tisanes I prefer, but witch hazel is safe, somewhat effective, and easier to get than the alternatives.

247 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 8:03:25am
248 wheat-doggha -- oo bird outside my window  Apr 22, 2014 8:06:25am

re: #239 Backwoods_Sleuth

I am in my third day of allergy misery. Guessing this is why:

Since leaving the Ohio Valley, I have not had allergy problems. Late May and early June were the worst time of the year — tree pollen I reckon — right at the end of the school year when I most needed to be alert and productive.

Gratefully, I am not allergic to China, or I’d have left after the first year.

249 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 8:08:27am

re: #244 FemNaziBitch

Saline Spray —cheap, cheap from Walgreens.

Not as good as the neti pot, but still very helpful.

What she said, plus… many odds-n-ends and drug-stores carry ‘fill your own’ sinus sprayers. They’re usually cheap. If you can find one and IF you can use a sinus sprayer, then you can make a modified neti solution.

The standard is 3/4 c distilled or sterilized water, 1/2 teaspoon non-iodized salt, 1 teaspoon baking soda, and as I said 1 tablespoon witch hazel. An alternative is to purchase sterile saline solution and just add the witch hazel (and depending on contents the baking soda).

For a sprayer you’re going to make half that, fill the sprayer, and toss the excess.

Regardless of what sort of sprayer (fill your own or purchased full of saline solution) the biggest mistake I see is that it gets under used. You want to use the ENTIRE BOTTLE by the end of the day.

250 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 8:10:57am

re: #249 kirkspencer

addendum. Whether you use it all in the day or not, if you made your own empty, clean, and refill every day. Obviously the corporate closed bottles cant be refilled so this isn’t an issue - but if you haven’t used it up in two or three days you should probably consider disposing and getting a new.

251 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 8:14:44am

re: #246 kirkspencer

The thing about witch hazel is that it’s an astringent which helps dry up the very wet sinuses.

I have other tinctures and tisanes I prefer, but witch hazel is safe, somewhat effective, and easier to get than the alternatives.

I have sinusitis and am very interested in killing any nasties that might try to take up residence!

252 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 8:16:28am

re: #249 kirkspencer

What she said, plus… many odds-n-ends and drug-stores carry ‘fill your own’ sinus sprayers. They’re usually cheap. If you can find one and IF you can use a sinus sprayer, then you can make a modified neti solution.

The standard is 3/4 c distilled or sterilized water, 1/2 teaspoon non-iodized salt, 1 teaspoon baking soda, and as I said 1 tablespoon witch hazel. An alternative is to purchase sterile saline solution and just add the witch hazel (and depending on contents the baking soda).

For a sprayer you’re going to make half that, fill the sprayer, and toss the excess.

Regardless of what sort of sprayer (fill your own or purchased full of saline solution) the biggest mistake I see is that it gets under used. You want to use the ENTIRE BOTTLE by the end of the day.

I basically do the same thing (when I take the time). I get a gallon of distilled water, and dump out the pre-figured-out amount of water. Add 4 TB of table salt, baking soda and h2o2. That way I have a gallon of pre-made neti pot water ready to go.

Just shake and pour into your neti pot.

253 GeneJockey  Apr 22, 2014 8:19:34am

Interesting set of posts over at TPM about the “Fox Effect”, but really, it’s what I’ve been saying for years - the effect is to make it okay to hold and express views that they would otherwise have been ashamed of. Worse, another part of the effect is to confirm and expand on the little paranoid thoughts people get when faced with change they don’t understand.

254 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 8:20:29am

My friend, Mr. Cardinal is back. He is quite vocal in his quest for a mate.

He must have good luck with the tree outside the window where I sit because he has chosen it as his bar stool for 2 years in a row now.

255 GeneJockey  Apr 22, 2014 8:21:54am

re: #254 FemNaziBitch

My friend, Mr. Cardinal is back. He is quite vocal in his quest for a mate.

He must have good luck with the tree outside the window where I sit because he has chosen it as his bar stool for 2 years in a row now.

“HEY! HE-E-EY!! Look at me! Look how red I am! Don’t you want to have my babies?!”

256 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 8:23:28am
257 A Mom Anon  Apr 22, 2014 8:24:27am

re: #256 Targetpractice

Oh, it’s still early, they’ll come up with something more hideous, give them time….

258 wrenchwench  Apr 22, 2014 8:27:14am
259 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 8:27:33am

re: #257 A Mom Anon

Oh, it’s still early, they’ll come up with something more hideous, give them time….

No doubt. But still, it’s pretty sad when Nikki Haley’s defenders not only have to start with character assassination out of the gate, but have to spin a defense attorney as unfit for office because their clients were accused of heinous crimes.

260 FemNaziBitch  Apr 22, 2014 8:28:23am

I have to get going.

Have a great morning/afternoon all!

261 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 22, 2014 8:35:36am

And… Christie throws away the Ron Paul vote!
///

nbcnews.com

262 Timothy Watson  Apr 22, 2014 8:52:48am

re: #261 Feline Fearless Leader

But it’s perfectly okay to use alcohol and tobacco!1!!!
/

263 Mattand  Apr 22, 2014 8:56:37am

re: #261 Feline Fearless Leader

And… Christie throws away the Ron Paul vote!
///

nbcnews.com

Part of me wishes that the GWB scandal would finally catch up with Christie and he’d leave office, but our Lt. Gov. is probably just as much a vindictive jerk as he is.

re: #262 Timothy Watson

But it’s perfectly okay to use alcohol and tobacco!1!!!
/

Yeah, this. When asked if I’ve ever done drugs, I usually state “Only one: alcohol.”

The fact that guys like Christie can’t see the obvious parallels between Prohibition and the current ban on pot is amazing.

264 Mattand  Apr 22, 2014 9:00:08am

re: #253 GeneJockey

Interesting set of posts over at TPM about the “Fox Effect”, but really, it’s what I’ve been saying for years - the effect is to make it okay to hold and express views that they would otherwise have been ashamed of. Worse, another part of the effect is to confirm and expand on the little paranoid thoughts people get when faced with change they don’t understand.

It’s been a fascinating read. It makes me realize how much of a bullet I’ve dodged with my father not watching Fox News. As he gets older, his filters for his racist and anti-Semitic opinions are starting to collapse. I’m convinced if he were a regular viewer of Fox, or a listener of RWNJ radio, he’d be out of control.

265 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 9:04:49am

re: #251 FemNaziBitch

I have sinusitis and am very interested in killing any nasties that might try to take up residence!

Yeah, me too, which is why I’ve gone and learned a thing or two. OK, some things.

1) Allergies vs bugs. Some things are the same, some are different, I’ll start with ‘sames’ and go to different’s later.

2) sames. The symptom from both can be (usually is) drippy wet sinuses. (not plugged. I’ll get to that also in a bit). In the case of both it’s the body trying to evict the problem. In the case of bugs it’s often counter to ‘best’ because the bugs like the heavy moisture. As a consequence the major thing to do is encourage things to clear out, which is basically to dry up. Hence astringents. As I said, witch hazel is my basic go to. If you want to go stronger the first step is talking to a pro (I’m not, I’m a hobbiest) and talk about goldenrod, yarrow, and oxeye daisies. You’ll make or purchase tisanes (teas) and tinctures.

— interjection. Quit thinking ‘either or’. Use both, use both flush (neti) and irrigate (spray).

3) differents. The allergy reaction is actually (usually) a hysterical overreaction. Wild example I’ve seen: you grew up with cats you were fine. Then one day or week you were exposed to a hundred or more as you volunteered at a shelter, and now when you’re around cats you plug and sniffle and tear. I am not going to discuss desensitization - talk to an allergist about that. That noted, the way your body can stop reacting is to clear the cause. Flood it to help wash away the particles. it’s what the body is trying to do, but mucus just doesn’t do the job well. Neti pots AND sprays. Avoid (as much as possible) the antihistimines and stick to astringents.

But then there’s bugs. It’s important to know if what you’re dealing with is allergy or bug. See, the mucus forms a barrier, traps the bugs, and removes them through draining. Yes, the irrigation helps a lot, but the drying isn’t necessarily a good thing. Instead you want to excite the mucus so it continues to deploy, and help flush.

The best (not perfect) way to know which is history. If it went to fully plugged and is coming off that it was probably bugs. If it’s just the drain (forward, back of throat, or both) it’s probably allergies.

Assuming you were (or to some extent are) fully blocked, it’s steam and aromatic time. Aromatics in the steam, the neti, and the spray. (in my case, also in my cpap reservoir.) Also sipping a hot aromatic tea assists. Classics are menthols - peppermint and eucalyptus. There are dozens of alternatives, though, with major recommendations for garlic, elecampane, ginger, hyssop, cayenne, calamus, wild bee balm, and thyme.

4) counterbalance. One of the risks of using the astringent is too much drying effect. I have this problem in that the back needs drained but the front of my passages get overdried. the simplest solution is a cotton ball soaked in an oil (olive oil, for example) and left in the nostril for 15-20 minutes. Once in a while I’ll play double-duty (when I need the aromatic) and I’ll supplement the nose oil with a drop or two of peppermint oil. And make certain I’ve got tissues or washcloth and sink for clean up after.

266 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 9:08:35am

re: #262 Timothy Watson

But it’s perfectly okay to use alcohol and tobacco!1!!!
/

And that’s what always gets me, the hypocrisy between marijuana and alcohol/tobacco. Especially the recent efforts to latch onto this study or that one to argue that such bans are moral because “They’re bad for your health!” Yet the same politicians have no issue with keeping alcohol and tobacco legal so long as they can use “sin taxes” as a ready slush fund. And if you suggest they be banned as harmful, then you get the pearl-clutching about “Prohibition” and how banning something only makes people want it more, never seeing the irony.

267 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 22, 2014 9:13:13am

re: #265 kirkspencer

As I mentioned early, I just can’t do the neti pot thing.
However, what I have found somewhat helpful is steam inhalation: hot water in the sink or a bowl and then using a large towel as a tent.

268 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 9:14:58am

re: #256 Targetpractice

recall that during some of the Soviet show trials of the 30’s, the defense counsel came up and excused themselves from the case because the crimes their clients were accused of were so heinous and indefensible…

269 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 9:20:44am

re: #90 jaunte

Clark County Recorder documents show the 160-acre Bunkerville ranch Bundy calls home was purchased by his parents, David and Bodel Bundy, from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt on Jan. 5, 1948.

Cliven was born in 1946 (same year the BLM was created). In other words, he wasn’t even born when his parents bought the land. hahaha. Comical.

270 wrenchwench  Apr 22, 2014 9:26:35am

re: #269 Dr. Matt

Cliven was born in 1946 (same year the BLM was created). In other words, he wasn’t even born when his parents bought the land. hahaha. Comical.

46 comes before 48, though.

271 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 9:28:41am

re: #267 Backwoods_Sleuth

As I mentioned early, I just can’t do the neti pot thing.
However, what I have found somewhat helpful is steam inhalation: hot water in the sink or a bowl and then using a large towel as a tent.

And hot teas. Lots and lots of hot teas.

272 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 22, 2014 9:30:34am

re: #271 kirkspencer

And hot teas. Lots and lots of hot teas.

yep

273 jaunte  Apr 22, 2014 9:30:54am

re: #269 Dr. Matt

“My rights are before the BLM even existed, but my rights are created by beneficial use. Beneficial use means we created the forage and the water from the time the very first pioneers come here,” Bundy said. talkingpointsmemo.com

If he really knows how to create water, he should get busy on Lake Mead.

274 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 9:36:40am

re: #270 wrenchwench

46 comes before 48, though.

Goddamnit……I read that backwards. hahah

Sorry…..long day….and it’s only noon-thirty

275 jaunte  Apr 22, 2014 9:37:45am
276 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 9:38:49am

277 Targetpractice  Apr 22, 2014 9:40:01am

What’s this “ancestral rights” business, paleface?

278 ObserverArt  Apr 22, 2014 9:47:03am

re: #192 Targetpractice

Ouch, just got done watching the clip from last night’s Daily Show, watching Stewart take Hannity behind the woodshed for his blatant hypocrisy in support of Bundy. When you make Glenn Beck seem like the voice of reason, then you’ve gone over the fucking edge.

I just watched that. Stewart brings up an interesting point about Hannity being outraged by Occupy Wallstreet protesters taking a stand on public land, camping out, etc.

And that brings up something I was wondering about a certain LGF member that had big issues with OWS overall, but seems to have downplayed the whole Bundy ranch thing, if anything has been posted or commented at all. Anyone notice that? Or, am I all wet and just missed the outrage about Bundy and his backers protesting on Federal lands against federal agents that are going to have the upper hand no matter what.

279 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 9:53:18am

re: #278 ObserverArt

And that brings up something I was wondering about a certain LGF member that had big issues with OWS overall, but seems to have downplayed the whole Bundy ranch thing, if anything has been posted or commented at all. Anyone notice that? Or, am I all wet and just missed the outrage about Bundy and his backers protesting on Federal lands against federal agents that are going to have the upper hand no matter what.

I was not aware that anyone at OWS was grazing livestock on any of the land they were occupying…

280 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 9:58:44am

re: #277 Targetpractice

Paleface wants a cattle dine and dash by refusing to pay the fees for grazing on that land.

281 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 9:59:32am

re: #278 ObserverArt

Federal land versus private property trespass.

282 Mattand  Apr 22, 2014 10:02:55am

re: #278 ObserverArt

I just watched that. Stewart brings up an interesting point about Hannity being outraged by Occupy Wallstreet protesters taking a stand on public land, camping out, etc.

And that brings up something I was wondering about a certain LGF member that had big issues with OWS overall, but seems to have downplayed the whole Bundy ranch thing, if anything has been posted or commented at all. Anyone notice that? Or, am I all wet and just missed the outrage about Bundy and his backers protesting on Federal lands against federal agents that are going to have the upper hand no matter what.

No, you’re not imagining anything at all.

Quite frankly, it’s pretty much a parallel to the hypocrisy that Jon Stewart spanked Hannity for.

283 wrenchwench  Apr 22, 2014 10:06:45am

re: #273 jaunte

If he really knows how to create water, he should get busy on Lake Mead.

No kidding.

Local arid grazing ranges have fenced off the little streams and springs so cattle can’t destroy the plants that grow around them, which would also kill the fish by destroying shade. Then ‘stock tanks’ (glorified mud puddles) are bulldozed to water the cattle. Except that’s not allowed in the wilderness, so some range became ‘unproductive’.

An uncooperative rancher was given the boot 10 years ago. There was talk of insurrection, but it didn’t get very far. I can see now how it could have gone.

284 Ming  Apr 22, 2014 10:09:24am

re: #263 Mattand

…The fact that guys like Christie can’t see the obvious parallels between Prohibition and the current ban on pot is amazing.

Given Christie’s weight, he should do a “Governor heal thyself” before he gets too excited about other people’s indulgences.

285 darthstar  Apr 22, 2014 10:09:56am

re: #261 Feline Fearless Leader

286 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 10:11:55am

re: #273 jaunte

By creating water, he’s probably referring to building wells and catch ponds. Not exactly groundbreaking stuff. And it was all done on federal lands and/or lands subject to federal control.

And none of that addresses the key issue - that he refused to pay the grazing fees for decades because he didn’t like how the fee was calculated. He sued. And lost. And lost some more. The fees added up, but he kept his herd grazing on federal lands without paying the fees.

He’s a thief and stealing public property as a result.

If he tried doing this on a private ranch, the owners would be out there with their guns either rounding up the herd for their own, or shooting him as a trespasser. The feds have been abundantly cautious in dealing with him, and timid to a point in allowing him to continue grazing there. The moment the BLM finally decided to take action, supported by court rulings aplenty, the Bundy supporters came out of the woodwork claiming that his rights were somehow being trampled.

It’s myopic worldviews in action, but the supporters are supporting a thief and deadbeat, who in any other situation would be castigated by the same people for being a deadbeat and trying to raise a herd without paying for the food and water that are necessary for the herd to forage.

287 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 10:12:19am

re: #281 lawhawk

I was not aware that anyone at OWS was grazing livestock on any of the land they were occupying…

Who claimed OWS was grazing livestock?

288 Dr. Matt  Apr 22, 2014 10:14:10am

re: #281 lawhawk

Federal land versus private property trespass.

Freedom Plaza and McPherson Square are not private property.

289 ObserverArt  Apr 22, 2014 10:15:50am

re: #281 lawhawk

Federal land versus private property trespass.

Agreed to a point. Some of the OWR people were also chided for being in public parks with their tents and drums.

And my real point is more or less about finding where a certain persons outrageous outrages line resides, or if that is a sliding line that varies due to who is protesting and what is being protested.

Also add in how Euromaiden protests were seen and what results were predicted and all that.

Plenty was said about those, very little about Bundy. Just see it as a bit odd, maybe telling about the politics of the protests.

290 b_sharp  Apr 22, 2014 10:16:06am

re: #287 Dr. Matt

Who claimed OWS was grazing livestock?

All those commies were grazing.

291 jaunte  Apr 22, 2014 10:17:29am

re: #289 ObserverArt

Bundy Ranch has organized several dumb circles.

292 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 10:18:03am

re: #278 ObserverArt

I just watched that. Stewart brings up an interesting point about Hannity being outraged by Occupy Wallstreet protesters taking a stand on public land, camping out, etc.

And that brings up something I was wondering about a certain LGF member that had big issues with OWS overall, but seems to have downplayed the whole Bundy ranch thing, if anything has been posted or commented at all. Anyone notice that? Or, am I all wet and just missed the outrage about Bundy and his backers protesting on Federal lands against federal agents that are going to have the upper hand no matter what.

I suppose there are some similarities between OWS and the Bundy Ranch thing. Appropriating public land for personal use and/or protest is wrong and technically illegal no matter who does it. However, as an act of civil disobedience I suppose it’s allowable as long as the protester is willing to suffer the legal consequences.
The Bundy Ranch protesters are potentially much more dangerous since they have small arms. It’s stupid and reckless. Like OWS, their anti-government paranoia is dangerous and it can potentially lead the more mentally unstable members to start fantasizing about doomsday government crackdowns and terrorist plots. Unlike OWS, they haven’t yet attacked police officers or vandalized local businesses. I don’t support either movement despite your implication that I do. I’m very hesitant to support violent protest movement and reserve that for only the most extreme cases usually involving authoritarian governments.

293 RealityBasedSteve  Apr 22, 2014 10:18:45am

re: #289 ObserverArt

Agreed to a point. Some of the OWR people were also chided for being in public parks with their tents and drums.

And my real point is more or less about finding where a certain persons outrageous outrages line resides, or if that is a sliding line that varies due to who is protesting and what is being protested.

Also add in how Euromaiden protests were seen and what results were predicted and all that.

Plenty was said about those, very little about Bundy. Just see it as a bit odd, maybe telling about the politics of the protests.

In Nashville, after the Occupy movement, signs went up in all the city parks / goverment building areas “No Camping Allowed”.

RBS

294 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Apr 22, 2014 10:19:03am

re: #287 Dr. Matt

Who claimed OWS was grazing livestock?

The point being that there is absolutely no comparison between Bundy and OWS

295 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 10:19:23am

Since there’s outrageous outrage brewing I might as well just say……

296 calochortus  Apr 22, 2014 10:19:25am

re: #286 lawhawk
Apparently the Nevada Cattleman’s Association begs to differ with Bundy’s position.

So far, the Nevada Cattlemen’s Association (NCA), which represents some 700 ranchers in the state, is taking a hands-off stance on Bundy’s protest.

In a statement, the association noted that Bundy’s case had been reviewed by a federal judge, and that a legal decision had been rendered to remove the cattle. The statement said that NCA “does not feel it is in our best interest to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter, and in addition NCA believes the matter is between Mr. Bundy and the federal courts.”

(more at link above.)

297 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 10:19:29am

potato

298 wrenchwench  Apr 22, 2014 10:19:53am
299 ObserverArt  Apr 22, 2014 10:20:57am

re: #292 Killgore Trout

I suppose there are some similarities between OWS and the Bundy Ranch thing. Appropriating public land for personal use and/or protest is wrong and technically illegal no matter who does it. However, as an act of civil disobedience I suppose it’s allowable as long as the protester is willing to suffer the legal consequences.
The Bundy Ranch protesters are potentially much more dangerous since they have small arms. It’s stupid and reckless. Like OWS, their anti-government paranoia is dangerous and it can potentially lead the more mentally unstable members to start fantasizing about doomsday government crackdowns and terrorist plots. Unlike OWS, they haven’t yet attacked police officers or vandalized local businesses. I don’t support either movement despite your implication that I do. I’m very hesitant to support violent protest movement and reserve that for only the most extreme cases usually involving authoritarian governments.

Thanks for the reply. And I do not think I am saying you support Bundy, just curious why you were not so ‘vocal’ about it as you were about OWS. If you had said the very same earlier, I would never have brought it up.

300 lawhawk  Apr 22, 2014 10:21:34am

re: #288 Dr. Matt

Zuccotti Park is. That’s why they chose the spot. Not subject to the same rules.

301 kirkspencer  Apr 22, 2014 10:21:47am

re: #281 lawhawk

Federal land versus private property trespass.

Among other places, McPherson Square and Freedom Plaza were ‘occupied’. Both of those are in DC and are federal land.

A surprising portion of ‘occupied’ land was public, though more than a little was of smaller levels of government control.

The comparison is, in my mind, valid as a certain lizard’s objections to OWS are wholesale, not only those on private property.

302 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 10:24:29am

re: #299 ObserverArt

Thanks for the reply. And I do not think I am saying you support Bundy, just curious why you were not so ‘vocal’ about it as you were about OWS. If you had said the very same earlier, I would never have brought it up.

Fair enough.

303 Killgore Trout  Apr 22, 2014 10:27:12am

Since OWS is a topic I’m going to post this for archival purposes.
Jury watches video of Occupy Wall Street protester elbowing NYPD cop in the face

The video is a bit hard to find on Youtube but here it is
Did an Occupy Protester Hit a Police Officer?
Youtube Video


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