Separated at Birth: Pee-wee Greenwald?

An eerie resemblance comes to light
Weird • Views: 19,486

Goofing around on Twitter today with suggestions for the inevitable movie to be made from Glenn Greenwald’s new book:

And then, something occurred to me:

And I didn’t know how right I was. Because the resemblance really is more than a little eerie:

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180 comments
1 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 2:03:15pm

I still think Elijah Wood should play Snowden. He hasn’t had a good role since LOTR.

2 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 2:03:32pm

Megyn Kelly as Jessalyn Radack.

3 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 2:03:45pm

Rosie O’Donnell as Laura Poitras.

4 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 2:06:17pm

You know, I threw this out in the comments a couple of days ago, got a few responses, but threads move so fast around here.

FTR, that portrait of GG is just horrible. I wonder if the photographer didn’t purposely use a lens/angle combination that distorted his features.

5 b.d.  May 11, 2014 2:11:14pm

Victoria Jackson as Jessalyn Radack, LOL.

Justin Bieber as Edward Snowden

6 Dr Lizardo  May 11, 2014 2:14:07pm

re: #4 Rev_Arthur_Belling

You know, I threw this out in the comments a couple of days ago, got a few responses, but threads move so fast around here.

FTR, that portrait of GG is just horrible. I wonder if the photographer didn’t purposely use a lens/angle combination that distorted his features.

When I first saw that photo of GG, I honestly thought it was shot with a fisheye lens or something because there did seem to be something almost distorted by the image. I had to do a doubletake.

Maybe it’s just the ‘Innsmouth look’ taking hold.

7 b.d.  May 11, 2014 2:14:17pm

Can we get Justin Timberlake to play Rand Paul somehow?

8 Shiplord Kirel  May 11, 2014 2:15:14pm

I think GG and Paul Reubens are the same person. Has anyone ever seen them together? Didn’t think so.
PeeWee’s career was in tatters a few years ago, and what new gig could have better capitalized on that experience?

9 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 2:17:40pm

Daniel Craig as Vlad Putin

10 b.d.  May 11, 2014 2:19:04pm

re: #9 Pie-onist Overlord

Daniel Craig as Vlad Putin

Agreed and get Ed Harris to play Clapper

11 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 2:21:11pm

Shameless page whoring: I just posted my second page evah! If you are in the mood for some acoustic music from an artist you may not have heard of, or need a breather after seeing GG’s mug (and who wouldn’t), check out the page. :)

12 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 11, 2014 2:22:20pm

posted this a while back, but works well here.

13 Kragar  May 11, 2014 2:22:37pm

It should be animated. Greenwald is already a cartoon.

14 freetoken  May 11, 2014 2:23:42pm

Pee-wee would be good for a Marco Rubio character, too.

Is this Pee-wee day?

15 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 2:24:04pm

There has to be a role for Kevin Spacey in this flick. If Phillip Seymour Hoffman were alive, he could play Gus Avrakosis (sp?) as the CIA fixer.

16 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 2:29:33pm

Chiwetel Ejiofor as Barack Obama
Pam Grier as Michelle Obama
Leonardo Di Caprio as Rand Paul

17 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 2:31:16pm

re: #16 Pie-onist Overlord

Pam Grier’s 64. A little old to play Michelle Obama.

18 PhillyPretzel  May 11, 2014 2:32:13pm

re: #17 Rev_Arthur_Belling

They can work wonders with make-up. lol

19 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 2:33:10pm

re: #18 PhillyPretzel

They can work wonders with make-up. lol

Lol, this is true. If that’s the case, though, I’d suggest Nichelle Nichols. ;)

Edit: And just to throw a spanner in the works, cast Samuel L. Jackson as President Obama! :D

20 Dr Lizardo  May 11, 2014 2:37:54pm

re: #17 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Pam Grier’s 64. A little old to play Michelle Obama.

Angela Bassett as Michelle Obama. She’s only five years older than the First Lady.

21 BongCrodny  May 11, 2014 2:42:32pm

Pee-Wee and Gee-Gee.

22 b.d.  May 11, 2014 2:45:54pm

re: #21 BongCrodny

Pee-Wee and Gee-Gee.

Gee-Gee’s Playhouse, aka The Intercept, with Pierre playing the role of the genie Jambi.

23 thedopefishlives  May 11, 2014 2:52:57pm

This provided just the laugh I needed for a dismal and cloudy Mother’s Day. Evening Lizardim.

24 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 2:57:50pm

Mother’s day on TCM.

Imitation of Life

25 Charles Johnson  May 11, 2014 3:00:07pm

There’s a lotta things about me you don’t know anything about, Dottie.

Youtube Video

26 Charles Johnson  May 11, 2014 3:02:39pm

I meant to do that.

Youtube Video

27 jaunte  May 11, 2014 3:05:39pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

Google adsense served a “Join the NRA, get an NRA duffle bag” ad on top of that. Strange combo.

28 jaunte  May 11, 2014 3:07:55pm

Hey kids, remember when your simpleminded dad bought a t-shirt for $57.99?
Never forget!

29 thedopefishlives  May 11, 2014 3:09:26pm

re: #28 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Hey kids, remember when your simpleminded dad bought a t-shirt for $57.99?
Never forget!

One of the guys at my church had his entire family decked out in Benghazi T-shirts on 9/11 last year. I really like the guy, but I nearly clocked him for that.

30 Eventual Carrion  May 11, 2014 3:09:33pm

I like Pee-Wee.

Short, sweet, to the point.

31 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 3:10:29pm

re: #28 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Hey kids, remember when your simpleminded dad bought a t-shirt for $57.99?
Never forget!

AAHAAHHAHAHHHHH

Hey, check out my hatriot decor!

32 b.d.  May 11, 2014 3:13:27pm

re: #28 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Hey kids, remember when your simpleminded dad bought a t-shirt for $57.99?
Never forget!

It’s a shower curtain, that is somehow even worse.

33 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 3:13:53pm

re: #17 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Pam Grier’s 64. A little old to play Michelle Obama.

Hmm.

Penny Johnson Jerald.

34 jaunte  May 11, 2014 3:15:20pm

re: #32 b.d.

It’s a shower curtain, that is somehow even worse.

Missed that, I just assumed it was a t-shirt. It’s extra weird that it’s a shower curtain, yes.

35 jaunte  May 11, 2014 3:16:36pm

Cafe Press Benghazi Shot Glasses
cafepress.com

37 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 3:19:29pm

Hillary in Prison baby onesie

38 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 3:20:20pm

re: #34 jaunte

Missed that, I just assumed it was a t-shirt. It’s extra weird that it’s a shower curtain, yes.

Super extra weird.

Pillows and a comforter?

My GAWD.

39 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 3:20:50pm

Killary fuzzy pink PJ’s.

40 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 3:21:14pm

The grift is strong in this one.

41 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 3:22:21pm

What happened is that some enterprising wingnuts designed a BENGHAZI!!!!!! logo and then instructed Cafepress to put it on ALL THE THINGS.

42 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 3:24:08pm

re: #41 Pie-onist Overlord

What happened is that some enterprising wingnuts designed a BENGHAZI!!!!!! logo and then instructed Cafepress to put it on ALL THE THINGS.

Probably a college democrat. In the mold of Gordon Gekko.

Hopefully they sell 2. To the idiots.

43 b.d.  May 11, 2014 3:25:29pm

re: #41 Pie-onist Overlord

What happened is that some enterprising wingnuts designed a BENGHAZI!!!!!! logo and then instructed Cafepress to put it on ALL THE THINGS.

i think there should be a Blue RIbbon Congressional Benghazi Select Committee formed to see if anyone has bought a Benghazi!!1! thong.

44 Kragar  May 11, 2014 3:25:51pm

Greenwald unveils the launch of his new website, the Intercept, surrounded by his adoring fans

Youtube Video

45 Kragar  May 11, 2014 3:27:27pm

Benghazi.

Che merchandizing for Conservatives.

46 Lidane  May 11, 2014 3:27:34pm

At least when Pee-Wee jerked off in public, he was in a porn theater.

Greenwald does it every time he publishes another self-aggrandizing rant or tweet. It’s obnoxious.

47 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 3:27:58pm

If I were a craven opportunist who wanted to jab at some dumbfuck conservatives, I would make another t-shirt/shower curtain/coffee mug/whatever listing all the other embassy bombings under Reagan/Bush/Bush II with the slogan “We Will Never Forget” as well.

It really sickens me that these asshats are making a mockery of the tragic deaths of four American citizens who were serving their country in a somewhat hostile environment so they can score political points.

48 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 3:28:37pm

re: #47 Rev_Arthur_Belling

If I were a craven opportunist who wanted to jab at some dumbfuck conservatives, I would make another t-shirt/shower curtain/coffee mug/whatever listing all the other embassy bombings under Reagan/Bush/Bush II with the slogan “We Will Never Forget” as well.

It really sickens me that these asshats are making a mockery of the tragic deaths of four American citizens who were serving their country in a somewhat hostile environment so they can score political points.

DING.

49 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 3:34:21pm

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel

I think GG and Paul Reubens are the same person. Has anyone ever seen them together? Didn’t think so.
PeeWee’s career was in tatters a few years ago, and what new gig could have better capitalized on that experience?

I can’t agree. I’ve never heard anything to suggest that Paul Reubens is even half as big an asshole as Glenn Greenwald.

50 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 3:34:30pm

Bryan is getting “those feelings” in his underpants.

51 Charles Johnson  May 11, 2014 3:39:29pm
52 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 3:39:49pm

re: #50 Pie-onist Overlord

Bryan is getting “those feelings” in his underpants.

[Embedded content]

Bryan seems to a bit irritated at Matt Drudge for giving that photo such a prominent place on his site. For my part, I actually think Drudge did the right thing in putting a newsmaking photograph where all his readers would see it. Those sites claiming to report the news should report the news, even if it makes some readers butthurt.

53 Lidane  May 11, 2014 3:40:39pm

re: #50 Pie-onist Overlord

It’s amazing how something as simple as a man being congratulated by the person he loves is so horrible for some people.

I think it’s beautiful.

54 Targetpractice  May 11, 2014 3:41:41pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

They’re just expressing “skepticism.” Just like when they say they don’t believe in evolution because it’s “just a theory” or when they say they don’t believe cigarette smoking leads to cancer because “there’s cause for doubt.”

55 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 3:47:14pm

re: #53 Lidane

It’s amazing how something as simple as a man being congratulated by the person he loves is so horrible for some people.

I think it’s beautiful.

Some people find an image of two men kissing to be sickening, and while I am not one of those people, they are not only wingnuts. There’s still a good many American men who find gayness threatening, especially when added to feminism’s erosion of traditional gender roles.

56 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 3:48:43pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Bryan seems to a bit irritated at Matt Drudge for giving that photo such a prominent place on his site. For my part, I actually think Drudge did the right thing in putting a newsmaking photograph where all his readers would see it. Those sites claiming to report the news should report the news, even if it makes some readers butthurt.

The rumor has long been that Drudge is homosexual himself. Just putting that out there.

57 Killgore Trout  May 11, 2014 3:54:39pm

Ukrainian Troops Kill Civilian
Liveleak Video

Looks like one of them fucked up their warning shots.

58 sagehen  May 11, 2014 3:56:54pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Some people find an image of two men kissing to be sickening, and while I am not one of those people, they are not only wingnuts. There’s still a good many American men who find gayness threatening, especially when added to feminism’s erosion of traditional gender roles.

Real Straight Men (TM) look at a bunch of gay guys and think… “all the women for ME ME ME!! Nobody else wants them they’re all mine!!!! Eleventy.”

59 Killgore Trout  May 11, 2014 3:58:19pm

Maybe not, different angle looks like an intentional point blank shot
Liveleak Video

60 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 3:59:49pm

re: #58 sagehen

Real Straight Men (TM) look at a bunch of gay guys and think… “all the women for ME ME ME!! Nobody else wants them they’re all mine!!!! Eleventy.”

That doesn’t work if the real problem is that said man is undesirable as a romantic partner. In that case he may fixate on gayness or feminism as the problems keeping him from romance, as doing so allows to deny the problem is more likely a poor appearance or a repulsive persona / personality.

61 Belafon  May 11, 2014 4:01:05pm

re: #58 sagehen

Those are ideal Real Straight Men. Real Real Straight Men think that every person on the planet has the same sex drive they do.

62 Lidane  May 11, 2014 4:01:09pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

feminism’s erosion of traditional gender roles

If by “traditional gender roles” you mean a woman being her father’s property until she’s sold off to her husband for political/economic reasons, then yeah. Feminism has destroyed those concepts, at least in this country and in most of the developed world. It’s the consequence of a lot of hard fought battles for a woman’s own moral agency and autonomy, and her dignity as a human being.

If you’re talking about the traditional gender roles shown on TV like Ozzie and Harriet, well, that never existed anyway. That was just propaganda to try and force women back into the home in the post-WW2 era.

63 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 4:06:22pm

D_F, you are really old fashioned. And old fashioned is an old fashioned term.

Primordial?

64 sagehen  May 11, 2014 4:07:16pm

re: #63 Stanley Sea

D_F, you are really old fashioned. And old fashioned is an old fashioned term.

Primordial?

Antedeluvian?

65 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:07:46pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Maybe not, different angle looks like an intentional point blank shot
[Embedded content]

Death by exsanguination. The product of the 5.45x39 rounds being used by both sides. If they strike an unarmored part of the body they destabilize and yaw (or tumble) as they pass through living tissue. Thus they make a finger sized entry wound ….. and exit wound with the same diameter as a normal sized cupcake.

Afghans call those rounds “poison bullets”, because they seldom kill immediately, but they’re more likely to be ultimately lethal than 7.62X39mm rounds.

66 ObserverArt  May 11, 2014 4:09:48pm

re: #43 b.d.

i think there should be a Blue RIbbon Congressional Benghazi Select Committee formed to see if anyone has bought a Benghazi!!1! thong.

Well, I think there should be a Blue Ribbon Congressional Select Committee to investigate the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and why it didn’t provide a settled conclusion and there was a need for a Blue Ribbon Congressional Select Committee on BENGHAZI.

There can never ever be enough question asking!!!

67 The War TARDIS  May 11, 2014 4:10:13pm

Hey, got another last name question.

Kuis- can’t find an origin or a meaning to this one. This is also the last name of the guy who was born in Westphalia and migrated to Groningen Province in the Netherlands in the era of the Napoleonic Wars.

68 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 4:11:05pm

re: #62 Lidane

If by “traditional gender roles” you mean a woman being her father’s property until she’s sold off to her husband for political/economic reasons, then yeah. Feminism has destroyed those concepts, at least in this country and in most of the developed world. It’s the consequence of a lot of hard fought battles for a woman’s own moral agency and autonomy, and her dignity as a human being.

I just wanted to highlight this again, because it’s amazing how much hasn’t changed among a certain set of humans regarding the agency of members of the female sex (speaking as a male here). The “love” basis for marriage is a relatively new development, at least in the west, and it blew my mind when I first discovered this was the case (I think it was in college, but who knows, it’s been a while).

I recoil in horror at the thought that I would consider my daughters somehow “less” than my son. They are all equally talented, intelligent, wonderful people, and should be allowed to make their way in the world free of any discrimination based upon their sex.

69 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:11:48pm

re: #63 Stanley Sea

D_F, you are really old fashioned. And old fashioned is an old fashioned term.

Primordial?

re: #64 sagehen

Antedeluvian?

I think I’m more modern than Noah’s Ark, sagehen. I admit to be fairly old-fashioned; It goes with how I was raised. But I do work to exemplify the better parts of older times and ways and I try to remove the worst parts of those times and habits.

I’m never going to be an ultra-modern person, but I try not to be an asshole.

70 sagehen  May 11, 2014 4:12:43pm

re: #61 Belafon

Those are ideal Real Straight Men. Real Real Straight Men think that every person on the planet has the same sex drive they do.

I think every decent person only likes exactly what I like. My favorite foods, movies, music, sports, weather… how could any rational person possibly like something I don’t?

71 The War TARDIS  May 11, 2014 4:13:52pm

re: #67 The War TARDIS

Putting that last name in a search does show me relatives I didn’t know about though.

72 Skip Intro  May 11, 2014 4:14:22pm

re: #70 sagehen

I think every decent person only likes exactly what I like. My favorite foods, movies, music, sports, weather… how could any rational person possibly like something I don’t?

That’s why I can’t understand why there are more than five channels on the TV. It just makes no sense at all.

73 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 4:15:30pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

I think I’m more modern than Noah’s Ark, sagehen. I admit to be fairly old-fashioned; It goes with how I was raised. But I do work to exemplify the better parts of older times and ways and I try to remove the worst parts of those times and habits.

I’m never going to be an ultra-modern person, but I try not to be an asshole.

Keep women in mind when you comment. The feminist movement did not change gender classification (or whatever you said/meant)

Feminism is about equal pay, respect for equal work. Including the Mother. Feminism is equating women with men. Not arguable.

74 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 4:15:47pm

re: #72 Skip Intro

That’s why I can’t understand why there are more than five channels on the TV. It just makes no sense at all.

Makes no sense at all, Husker Du

Youtube Video

75 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:20:43pm

Benghazi shower curtain.

76 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:21:12pm

re: #73 Stanley Sea

Keep women in mind when you comment. The feminist movement did not change gender classification (or whatever you said/meant)

Feminism is about equal pay, respect for equal work. Including the Mother. Feminism is equating women with men. Not arguable.

Oh, Feminism has eroded the differences between gender roles, don’t doubt it for a minute. But while I am certain of that, it’s also worth noting that I also believe that said erosion is a not wholly or even mostly bad thing.

77 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:22:00pm

86 results for: Benghazi Shower Curtains

78 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:22:33pm

79 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:22:46pm

re: #75 Gus

[Embedded content]

Benghazi shower curtain.

80 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 4:24:22pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Oh, Feminism has eroded the differences between gender roles, don’t doubt it for a minute. But while I am certain of that, it’s also worth noting that I also believe that said erosion is a not wholly or even mostly bad thing.

Care to expand on that in light of previous comments you’ve made? Not trying to bait you or anything, just looking for clarity.

81 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:25:20pm

re: #78 Gus

[Embedded image]

[draws Gauss pistol] OMG, I should have known! Word of Blake lives, GUS IS MANEI DOMINI!!!11 [DF opens fire on Gus]

/ Battletech humor, based off of the bloody hand part of the image.

82 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:25:50pm

cafepress.com

83 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:26:01pm

re: #80 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Care to expand on that in light of previous comments you’ve made? Not trying to bait you or anything, just looking for clarity.

No, I’d rather just leave things where they are.

84 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:26:35pm

Benghazi thongs.

85 Gus  May 11, 2014 4:27:34pm

HILLARY LIES Classic Thong by WITCHHILLARY

86 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:27:59pm

re: #82 Gus

[Embedded image]

cafepress.com

Well, now we know what Todd Palin got Caribou Barbie for Mother’s Day.

87 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 4:28:19pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

No, I’d rather just leave things where they are.

So you don’t have anything further to add, or you know that what you say would probably not stand you in good stead with the majority of commenters?

I realize I’m a relative n00b here, but I’d like to understand more how the D_F views feminism and how it relates to traditional gender roles.

88 Charles Johnson  May 11, 2014 4:28:53pm
89 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 11, 2014 4:29:40pm

re: #88 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Terrorists! #hashtagactivism //

90 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 4:34:36pm

re: #24 Stanley Sea

Mother’s day on TCM.

Imitation of Life

Still on. Beautifully twisted Mother’s day choice.

91 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 4:35:11pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Oh, Feminism has eroded the differences between gender roles, don’t doubt it for a minute. But while I am certain of that, it’s also worth noting that I also believe that said erosion is a not wholly or even mostly bad thing.

The old roles were mostly fictitious anyway.

92 b.d.  May 11, 2014 4:35:17pm

Stay Classy Republicans!

93 PhillyPretzel  May 11, 2014 4:35:50pm

::: watching The Story of the Jews on NJTV :::

njtvonline.org

94 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:41:06pm

One thing I am going to do is link to this piece from Tumblr. It’s admittedly a man’s view of the societal relation between women and firearms, but the author displays a reasonable degree of understanding and clearly tries hard to deliver the truth as best he knows it. I leave to the group to decide if he succeeds but it seems clear to me that at least he’s not being an ass. Here’s the end of the piece:

or the average male gun owner, finding a gun-loving girlfriend or wife is often the ultimate dream. Yet the submission mentioned that the some gun communities can be so vulgar that they are more or less turning women off and away from firearms in general.

Admittedly there are gun communities (clubs, forums etc) that aren’t very welcoming to certain people. Sexism and racism do exist in the firearms community, to say otherwise is selective ignorance. Which brings up the bigger picture in the sum of this. As law-abiding gun owners, the goal should be to introduce as many people to the firearms community, not to isolate and push people away.

I think its important to realize that we don’t know everyone’s story. Maybe that girl/woman at the gun shop or the range is buying her first gun because she was mugged or raped. Making vulgar jokes or comments towards her only serves to make whoever is saying those things sound like an asshole. Common decency goes a long way towards making a new friend unfamiliar with guns. But you never know, maybe that woman at the range is a better shot than most of the guys.

Also, to all mothers, especially those serving in the armed forces; Happy Mother’s Day.

95 b.d.  May 11, 2014 4:41:27pm


cafepress.com

96 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 4:41:55pm
97 Pie-onist Overlord  May 11, 2014 4:42:39pm

HEY DADS!

U want to “bond” with your baby? Let it suck on your nipple.

98 ObserverArt  May 11, 2014 4:43:38pm

re: #88 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I got to see Procol Harum in ‘74 at the Mershon Auditorium on OSU campus. They performed almost all of the Grand Hotel album and other select stuff. It was one of the most mellow concerts I ever saw. The fact it was at Mershon was perfect for them. It is a 2500 seat hall designed for classic music and stage performances. It really was like seeing a classical performance. I still remember Gary Brooker’s Full size Baldwin Grand Piano place center stage with the rest of the band in an arch behind him.

99 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 4:47:05pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

As law-abiding gun owners, the goal should be to introduce as many people to the firearms community, not to isolate and push people away.

For god’s sake, why? Why introduce them to it at all?

100 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 4:47:26pm

I think you guys might get a kick out of this sneak peek footage.

101 Charles Johnson  May 11, 2014 4:48:03pm

re: #11 Rev_Arthur_Belling

I saw your comment about a way to be notified if someone posts a comment on your Page, or a reply to you in a thread - we haz it.

Check out the popup menu at the bottom of the comment posting form. It lets you “subscribe” to a thread and get email notifications whenever anyone posts to it, or when someone replies to you.

102 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 4:49:10pm

re: #99 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

For god’s sake, why? Why introduce them to it at all?

For the fun of the sport for just one easy answer. Target shooting is fun. Hunting is another worthwhile activity assuming it’s not just trophy hunting.

103 Killgore Trout  May 11, 2014 4:51:40pm

re: #100 Rightwingconspirator

I think you guys might get a kick out of this sneak peek footage.

Wow! That looks really slick, very professional.

104 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 4:52:14pm

re: #99 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

For god’s sake, why? Why introduce them to it at all?

Because some of the hostility to guns in general is rotted in ignorance or misunderstandings about firearms and their owners.

Also, because getting people involved in a sporting activity and broadening its participant base is the best way to ensure its continued popularity and societal acceptance.

105 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 4:53:17pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

Wow! That looks really slick, very professional.

Thanks much.

106 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 4:53:40pm

re: #102 Rightwingconspirator

For the fun of the sport for just one easy answer. Target shooting is fun. Hunting is another worthwhile activity assuming it’s not just trophy hunting.

I like bike-riding. I like rock-climbing. I like a lot of things. I don’t think that the ‘goal’ of me doing of any of these fun activities should be to introduce as many people as possible to them. Why would it be?

If someone displays an interest, sure, but why on earth should it be the goal to introduce as many people as possible? That’s weird.

107 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 4:55:09pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Because some of the hostility to guns in general is rotted in ignorance or misunderstandings about firearms and their owners.

You’re not going to gain a better understanding of that by going to a firing range, though, and the assholes making shitty sexist comments to the women are as honest a representation as anyone else is.

Also, because getting people involved in a sporting activity and broadening its participant base is the best way to ensure its continued popularity and societal acceptance.

Yeah, I think that’s the actual reason.

108 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 4:57:50pm

re: #106 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I like bike-riding. I like rock-climbing. I like a lot of things. I don’t think that the ‘goal’ of me doing of any of these fun activities should be to introduce as many people as possible to them. Why would it be?

If someone displays an interest, sure, but why on earth should it be the goal to introduce as many people as possible? That’s weird.

It’s not weird at all unless your perspective is that the sport is some kind of negative influence. Like any sport it seeks new participants. Those that don’t like it simply move on no harm done. Yes we would like to grow our sport, and encourage all the right training and information we can. If I’m having fun why would I not want to invite a friend or show them some of it?

109 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 4:59:35pm

re: #107 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You’re not going to gain a better understanding of that by going to a firing range, though, and the assholes making shitty sexist comments to the women are as honest a representation as anyone else is.

Yeah, I think that’s the actual reason.

No sport would exist for long if no new people were exposed to it. You sound as if you want it to all go away. The good with the bad.

110 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:04:41pm

re: #108 Rightwingconspirator

It’s not weird at all unless your perspective is that the sport is some kind of negative influence. Like any sport it seeks new participants.

Every sport doesn’t seek new participants, though. Really, as someone who rock-climbs, I don’t try to get as many people as possible to try it. As a boxer, I definitely didn’t try to get as many people as possible to box.

Those that don’t like it simply move on no harm done. Yes we would like to grow our sport, and encourage all the right training and information we can. If I’m having fun why would I not want to invite a friend or show them some of it?

Inviting a friend in particular, one who you want to share stuff with? Sure. But that’s not we’re talking about. We’re talking about getting as many people as possible to do it.

re: #109 Rightwingconspirator

No sport would exist for long if no new people were exposed to it. You sound as if you want it to all go away. The good with the bad.

Please, don’t go down the road of making up shit I didn’t say. I didn’t say no new people should be exposed to it. Again, what we’re talking about is the idea of exposing as many people as possible.

111 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:06:32pm

Now I’m having a flashback to the jogging enthusiasts of the early 90s. Christ they were annoying.

112 Lidane  May 11, 2014 5:09:03pm
As law-abiding gun owners, the goal should be to introduce as many people to the firearms community, not to isolate and push people away.

Here’s a clue — many people have already met the firearms community and found it filled with sexist, racist, ignorant assholes.

Not all gun owners are like that, of course. Most are pretty cool. But the ones who are ZOMG SECOND AMENDMENT 4EVAH! MOAR GUNZ! MOLON LABE! are a definite turn off and a definite sign that maybe being part of the “firearms community” isn’t for everyone.

BTW, selling pink guns and sparkly accessories doesn’t make a gun more appealing for a woman. It only reinforces the fact that the “firearms community” thinks of women as stupid children that need pink and glitter to want to hold a gun at all.

113 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:15:14pm

re: #112 Lidane

The boxing community still has a shit-load of sexism and racism in it. I often exhorted students to be welcoming to anyone who came in through the doors, especially if they were very unskilled—who better to come to train, than someone with no training? The guy I respected most in the boxing community was my kickboxing coach, Joe Plewa, who had the magic touch when it came to being a teacher, everyone felt comfortable in his class, male, female, no matter what, everyone just had a great time.

But I never told my students to introduce everyone they could to boxing. I have no idea why I would. Joe never told us to go out and introduce as many people as possible either. In fact, he told us the opposite, to only encourage people to come if we thought they’d stick with it, if they were mature enough to handle it, if they weren’t weirded out by controlled violence. Part of this is because it’s easy to hurt yourself, or others, during boxing, so you don’t want reckless people involved, but only part of it.

114 goddamnedfrank  May 11, 2014 5:18:01pm

For me ballistics is kind of a solitary activity, that’s part of how I keep it safe. If somebody finds out I have guns and wants to go shooting I take a long, hard look at them before agreeing to take them to a range. I tell them the idea they have in their heads and how it’s going to be may not be exactly similar, because shooters are weird and I’m a dick about safety.

If people want to “shoot” I’ll steer them towards photography. I have a masters degree in that shit, it’s more conducive to sociality, it’s a much more creative and rewarding activity, and it’s far more forgiving of error.

115 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:18:44pm

re: #112 Lidane

Here’s a clue — many people have already met the firearms community and found it filled with sexist, racist, ignorant assholes.

Not all gun owners are like that, of course. Most are pretty cool. But the ones who are ZOMG SECOND AMENDMENT 4EVAH! MOAR GUNZ! MOLON LABE! are a definite turn off and a definite sign that maybe being part of the “firearms community” isn’t for everyone.

BTW, selling pink guns and sparkly accessories doesn’t make a gun more appealing for a woman. It only reinforces the fact that the “firearms community” thinks of women as stupid children that need pink and glitter to want to hold a gun at all.

Which is is why the author was criticizing bad behavior by some firearms owners: He’s trying to present a better image of firearms owners in an effort to get more women interested in firearms. This also has the bonus that those clubs and gun ranges that become more female friendly won’t be appealing places for the sorts of asshole you are criticizing.

it’s not a perfect plan, but what plan is? It’s an idea that if brought to fruition would in my opinion make the United States a slightly better place, and that’s a worthy goal.

116 urbanmeemaw  May 11, 2014 5:19:23pm

re: #15 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Actually I could see Kevin Spacey as GG.

117 thedopefishlives  May 11, 2014 5:19:44pm

re: #113 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Our tae kwon do school encourages people to bring in friends; but then again, that’s mostly the kids, who are expected to be driven by their parents to continue to train. For adults, it’s much more like, “If you know someone who you think would be into TKD, bring them in.”

118 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:20:12pm

re: #110 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Please, don’t go down the road of making up shit I didn’t say. I didn’t say no new people should be exposed to it. Again, what we’re talking about is the idea of exposing as many people as possible.

For god’s sake, why? Why introduce them to it at all?

?! Looked like it to me. I said “sound as if”. That’s telling you how it sounded to me. That is not making anything up. And that’s not the first time your choice of words gave me that impression. When I include a caveat you should include its intent in reading my words. You’ll get upset less often at me.

“Exposing as many people to it as possible.” Yes, in general. Gun ranges advertise. And that’s the goal of those advertisements.
Just had good people re do the website where I have an interest. Yes, we’d like to expose as many people to it, that way we hope they can each assess whether it’s for them. I might have linked it here in the past. Try not to take that as some kind of hyper evangelizing, as that’s not my intent. It’s just ordinary promotion of a family friendly sport. Some of us have a lot of enthusiasm and talk it up. Its really not harmful.

119 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:20:20pm

re: #116 urbanmeemaw

Actually I could see Kevin Spacey as GG.

Spacey is great at playing arrogant jerks. His character in Horrible Bosses comes to mind immediately.

120 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:20:21pm

re: #116 urbanmeemaw

Actually I could see Kevin Spacey as GG.

Could Spacy capture the flakiness and lack of seriousness at the core of Glenn Greenwald though?

121 Killgore Trout  May 11, 2014 5:20:30pm

90% ‘back eastern Ukraine vote’

The rebels were announcing preliminary results of a twin referendum that is certain to deepen the turmoil in the country.

Roman Lyagin, election chief of the self-styled Donetsk People’s Republic, said about 75% of the Donetsk region’s three million or so eligible voters cast ballots, and the vast majority backed self-rule.

With no international election monitors in place, it was all but impossible to verify the insurgents’ claims. The preliminary vote count was announced just two hours after the polls closed in an election conducted via paper ballots.

122 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:21:39pm

re: #117 thedopefishlives

Our tae kwon do school encourages people to bring in friends; but then again, that’s mostly the kids, who are expected to be driven by their parents to continue to train. For adults, it’s much more like, “If you know someone who you think would be into TKD, bring them in.”

I have a whole host of problems of the way most TK classes are run, too.

123 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:21:54pm

re: #119 HappyWarrior

Spacey is great at playing arrogant jerks. His character in Horrible Bosses comes to mind immediately.

He played a very similar character opposite Frank Whaley in Swimming With Sharks.

Edited.

124 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:22:40pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

He played very similar on opposite Frank Whaley in Swimming With Sharks.

Never saw that. Dude is talented no doubt about it. Maybe a little old to play GG but I can see the resemblance though.

125 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:23:01pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Because some of the hostility to guns in general is rotted in ignorance or misunderstandings about firearms and their owners.

Also, because getting people involved in a sporting activity and broadening its participant base is the best way to ensure its continued popularity and societal acceptance.

I don’t get why this is a big deal at all.

126 Lidane  May 11, 2014 5:23:02pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

Which is is why the author was criticizing bad behavior by some firearms owners: He’s trying to present a better image of firearms owners in an effort to get more women interested in firearms. This also has the bonus that those clubs and gun ranges that become more female friendly won’t be appealing places for the sorts of asshole you are criticizing.

When there are gun store owners and shooting instructors openly saying they won’t train or sell to Obama voters, libruls, or anyone who even looks like a Democrat, I think the problems facing the “firearms community” are much deeper than just making guns more palatable for women.

This is the same cognitive dissonance that the GOP specializes in — fixing the messenger instead of the message itself. There seems to be this idea that if you make the messengers more appealing that people will overlook the message. That’s not necessarily the case.

it’s not a perfect plan, but what plan is? It’s an idea that if brought to fruition would in my opinion make the United States a slightly better place, and that’s a worthy goal.

Why do we need more people in the “firearms community” for this country to be better? There are already a fuckton of guns out there. Why do I need to buy one and shoot one in order to improve the country? And how does it improve anything for me to own a gun?

127 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:23:32pm

Are they going to be adapting the story of the 2012 election though like they did with Game Change and Recount. No idea who you’d get to play the major moves and shakers of the past election.

128 b.d.  May 11, 2014 5:24:33pm

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129 Stanley Sea  May 11, 2014 5:25:00pm

re: #108 Rightwingconspirator

It’s not weird at all unless your perspective is that the sport is some kind of negative influence. Like any sport it seeks new participants. Those that don’t like it simply move on no harm done. Yes we would like to grow our sport, and encourage all the right training and information we can. If I’m having fun why would I not want to invite a friend or show them some of it?

Problem is, regular dude in his house, on his porch is feeling his gun power by killing his neighbors.

130 urbanmeemaw  May 11, 2014 5:25:02pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

Oh, I think he would do it beautifully. He’s a master at capturing subtext and nuance of a character and situation.

131 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:25:59pm

re: #118 Rightwingconspirator

?! Looked like it to me. I said “sound as if”. That’s telling you how it sounded to me. That is not making anything up. And that’s not the first time your choice of words gave me that impression. When I include a caveat you should include its intent in reading my words. You’ll get upset less often at me.

But it doesn’t sound like that, at all. You just made that up.

“Exposing as many people to it as possible.” Yes, in general. Gun ranges advertise. And that’s the goal of those advertisements. Just had good people re do the website where I have an interest. Yes, we’d like to expose as many people to it, that way we hope they can each assess whether it’s for them. I might have linked it here in the past. Try not to take that as some kind of hyper evangelizing, as that’s not my intent. It’s just ordinary promotion of a family friendly sport. Some of us have a lot of enthusiasm and talk it up. Its really not harmful.

We’re not talking about gun ranges advertising, we’re talking about the author’s assertion that all law-abiding gun owners should be trying to introduce as many people as possible to the firearms community. And I really do think that one way that gun enthusiasts hugely, hugely, horribly fall down is precisely in the “leave it up to them to decide if they’re into it” thing. As I said, my boxing coach encouraged us to only bring people to class who would be at a (pretty high) minimum of maturity and responsibility. Gun advocates have a really unfortunate tendency to go miles out of their way to admit that many ordinary people shouldn’t own guns because they’re not responsible enough.

I think that DF has the right of it, and the unfortunate identity politics of gun owners, identifying as part of the ‘firearms community’, is what drives the evangelization.

132 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:27:26pm

re: #126 Lidane

Why do we need more people in the “firearms community” for this country to be better? There are already a fuckton of guns out there. Why do I need to buy one and shoot one in order to improve the country? And how does it improve anything for me to own a gun?

I’m not going to defend outliers like those you mention. And you don’t need a gun. It won’t improve anything for you as far as i can tell. But that’s you.

Ask D_L some time how much she enjoys the sport, the competition. How she likes having that defensive skill as a life long juvenile arthritis patient. it was part of our dating. She had never shot.

So what the heck is wrong with this picture? Nothing.

133 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:28:14pm

re: #132 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not going to defend outliers like those you mention. And you don’t need a gun. It won’t improve anything for you as far as i can tell. But that’s you.

Ask D_L some time how much she enjoys the sport, the competition. How she likes having that defensive skill as a life long juvenile arthritis patient. it was part of our dating. She had never shot.

So what the heck is wrong with this picture? Nothing.

Nobody is saying there’s anything wrong with that picture, though.

134 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:29:36pm

re: #126 Lidane

Here’s the thing: I can’t fix what that redneck idiot gun store in Texas (or wherever) says that alienates all no-wingnuts. All I can realistically make happen if I am a gun owner is to ensure that I don’t say or do such things and work with my friends and neighbors to ensure our gun range or gun club doesn’t permit asshole misbehavior.

Small victories, Lidane. that’s all most people can do. But enough small victories can add up to a bigger win, and even if they don’t, making your own social world better is still a good thing.

135 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:32:47pm

re: #131 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I think that DF has the right of it, and the unfortunate identity politics of gun owners, identifying as part of the ‘firearms community’, is what drives the evangelization.

Uh huh. Well count me in as one of those who does talk it up and one of my motivations is certainly the critics that broad brush us or expect so many to come to their conclusions once exposed to the same old gun stats. So there we are.

Sincere apologies to anyone angered or annoyed by my opinions in the matter.

136 ObserverArt  May 11, 2014 5:34:48pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Because some of the hostility to guns in general is rotted in ignorance or misunderstandings about firearms and their owners.

Also, because getting people involved in a sporting activity and broadening its participant base is the best way to ensure its continued popularity and societal acceptance.

Dark, do you ever try to look at issues from many viewpoints? You might give it a try. View everything from 360° if you can. Understand why others feel the way they do. Sure you can have your home base view, but the things you learn when you jump from what you know to learn what others think. Learn. It is a verb. It also does not mean you have to accept.

That is the biggest problem we have with the whole gun thing. No one wants to come off of their stance. There is no longer any reality to the debate. How can anything even be discussed?

And yet we call ourselves reasonable people. Not with guns.

137 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:36:29pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Here’s the thing: I can’t fix what that redneck idiot gun store in Texas (or wherever) says that alienates all no-wingnuts. All I can realistically make happen if I am a gun owner is to ensure that I don’t say or do such things and work with my friends and neighbors to ensure our gun range or gun club doesn’t permit asshole misbehavior.

I think part of the deal is just admitting those people are every bit as much of the firearm community. On Monday, when I’m back in the lab, I can run some SPSS stats and actually track correlations between things like racism, sexism, and gun ownership. I don’t have any preconceptions: I’d expect that gun owners would be basically indistinguishable from ordinary Americans on those subjects. But ordinary Americans have huge amounts of sexism and racism.

I absolutely think the author is right (though still slightly clumsily chivalrous) in saying that being crude assholes to women is a Bad Thing which Shouldn’t Happen, but that’s, like, utterly basic being a good person behavior. It’s more the idea of this gestalt ‘firearms community’, which really doesn’t exist, that’s the problem.

138 Belafon  May 11, 2014 5:36:43pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

I went to this event with my middle son. The cool thing was, I got to load and shoot a muzzle loader.

What I found interesting was the NRA people there, in charge of the shooting ranges. They were very serious. There was one guy whose sole job was to watch everyone else and make sure they were following the rules. Then each shooter had a traininer. Which made me wonder: If they think it takes this much effort to keep everyone safe here, why would they think these guns belong in public on just anybody and be available to shoot without a controlled environment? If it were me, I would want to make sure no unstable person had a gun, and that the guns would only be usable in controlled situations.

139 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:39:42pm

re: #131 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But it doesn’t sound like that, at all. You just made that up.

For the record, and as straight as I can say-NO.

And exposing them to the sport is as simple as watching on YouTube. Sending a link. How careful am I supposed to have be before I do that? Sheesh. When did the word exposed come to exclusively mean go shoot?

140 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:40:16pm

re: #135 Rightwingconspirator

Uh huh. Well count me in as one of those who does talk it up and one of my motivations is certainly the critics that broad brush us or expect so many to come to their conclusions once exposed to the same old gun stats. So there we are.

Yeah, the politicization of it is what makes it seem weird to other people, and I’d say the evangelization may actually be working against you. Again, one of the major problems among gun advocacy groups is how rarely they talk about people who shouldn’t own guns—not because they’re bad people, but just because they’re irresponsible, they get loaded, or are buying the gun for ‘self defense’ when they live in a very safe neighborhood and are not actually increasing their safety by doing so.

By making it into a political, rather than a pragmatic position, I think gun advocates do their own position a disservice, and wind up opening themselves up to a lot of legitimate criticism about evangelization.

Veteran gun-owners, responsible law-abiding gun-owners, should be dissuading, as well as encouraging, people to own guns, just as a boxing trainer should dissuage, as well as encourage, to box, based on the person.

141 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:41:12pm

re: #138 Belafon

I went to this event with my middle son. The cool thing was, I got to load and shoot a muzzle loader.

What I found interesting was the NRA people there, in charge of the shooting ranges. They were very serious. One guy whose sole job was to watch everyone else and make sure they were following the rules. Then each shooter had a traininer. Which made me wonder: If they think it takes this much effort to keep everyone safe here, why would they think these guns belong in public on just anybody and be available to shoot without a controlled environment? If it were me, I would want to make sure no unstable person had a gun, and that the guns would only be usable in controlled situations.

I have no argument with the first part of your two points, but I disagree intensely with the second part. The reason being that self-defense situations are almost always ‘uncontrolled’. Using a shotgun in one’s home to ward off an intruder is ‘uncontrolled’ (except as controlled by the homeowner’s training and mindset, which are pretty powerful controls at that), but it is nevertheless regarded as a legitimate use of a firearm, even in Chicago.

142 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:42:03pm

re: #139 Rightwingconspirator

For the record, and as straight as I can say-NO.

This is the bit you just made up:

You sound as if you want it to all go away. The good with the bad.

No, I don’t. There is no way that me saying that trying to introduce as many people possible to the firearms community isn’t a good idea is equivalent to me saying I want it all to go away. You just made that up.

143 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:43:23pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

I have no argument with the first part of your two points, but I disagree intensely with the second part. The reason being that self-defense situations are almost always ‘uncontrolled’. Using a shotgun in one’s home to ward off an intruder is ‘uncontrolled’ (except as controlled by the homeowner’s training and mindset, which are pretty powerful controls at that), but it is nevertheless regarded as a legitimate use of a firearm, even in Chicago.

I think when we’re talking public, what’s been talked about are places like bars, restaurants, movie theaters, churches, etc not private residences. To be completely truthful with you, if I were at a bar and I knew there was a person with a gun there, I wouldn’t want to be there.

144 Gus  May 11, 2014 5:45:59pm

Fucking cold again. Not freezing but fucking cold. Rain/snow mixed. Cold inside here. Fuck cold weather. Fuck Denver weather. Fuck winter and fuck cold springs.

145 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:48:11pm

re: #140 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Veteran gun-owners, responsible law-abiding gun-owners, should be dissuading, as well as encouraging, people to own guns, just as a boxing trainer should dissuage, as well as encourage, to box, based on the person.

The problem with that idea in the minds of many gun owners is the (in my opinion reasonable) fear that anti-gun groups will take their words out of context and say something like “You see, gun owners are like tobacco executives! They’re deliberately pushing a product they know to be unsafe on our children for their own corrupt reasons.”

Disclaimer: I know you’d never do any such thing, Obdi, but there are those who disdain guns who are not as honest as you. I also used Dudebro font because we have no ‘moonbat’ font.

146 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:48:27pm

re: #142 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

This is the bit you just made up:

No, I don’t. There is no way that me saying that trying to introduce as many people possible to the firearms community isn’t a good idea is equivalent to me saying I want it all to go away. You just made that up.

No I took account of the added emphasis as per your harsh language. I did you the favor of pointing out an impression you did not want to make to me. And now I’m taken to task for it. Obdi, sometimes you just make conversation with you difficult. That’s not a slur it’s an expression of a small amount of exasperation. I accept your stated position. You should strongly consider accepting I made nothing up. At very worst that’s a misunderstanding.

it’s the dinner hour here and I’m going to go back to lurking for a while.

147 Belafon  May 11, 2014 5:49:53pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

I own a shotgun, mostly so that my kids understand what a gun is, since they will see them around the US. The only way I’m going to protect my house with the shotgun is if the intruder sits down and watches tv after he breaks in.

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.

148 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:50:14pm

I think what’s frustrating to me is the continued narrative of the “good guy” and “bad guy” when it comes to guns. I just think that’s dumbing things down way too much when gun related accidents are at way too highs. I get it. More gun safety but perhaps and this is more cultural critique than legal suggestion but perhaps we do have too many guns. I dunno. I just feel I read about too many situations where someone firing their gun too willingly over something that could have been resolved without going to the gun. What I resent and I think this is something we’ve all agreed on in past discussions is the tendency of the gun lobby to rely on people’s fears. I can remember the NRA and like minded groups pushing CLINTON IS GOING TO TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS, SO STOCK UP NOW in the 90’s when I was a kid. Obama becomes president and it’s rinse and repeat.

149 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:50:18pm

re: #143 HappyWarrior

The word used was ‘controlled’ and that was what I respoded to. It’s possible my response cover ground Belafon wasn’t speaking to, in which case it can be calked up to my typical literalism.

150 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:52:07pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

The word used was ‘controlled’ and that was what I respoded to. It’s possible my response cover ground Belafon wasn’t speaking to, in which case it can be calked up to my typical literalism.

It’s cool. But anyhow, to me, I think there’s a world of difference between the homeowner who wants to keep a gun by his night stand pending intruders and the guy who needs to bring his gun with him to a night of drinking at the bar.

151 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:55:03pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

The problem with that idea in the minds of many gun owners is the (in my opinion reasonable) fear that anti-gun groups will take their words out of context and say something like “You see, gun owners are like tobacco executives! They’re deliberately pushing a product they know to be unsafe on our children for their own corrupt reasons.”

The problem is that right now, they’re acting more closely to tobacco executives by not acknowledging the dangers.

152 Dark_Falcon  May 11, 2014 5:55:44pm

re: #147 Belafon

I own a shotgun, mostly so that my kids understand what a gun is, since they will see them around the US. The only way I’m going to protect my house with the shotgun is if the intruder sits down and watches tv after he breaks in.

Response questions for that stat: Did the people who put it together control for if the gun used in an assault or murder was lawfully owned by the homeowners at the time of the crime? How many of the suicide attempts in question involved firearms? Did the accident involving a gun actually involve the gun going off or pose a high risk of it going off?

153 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 5:56:43pm

re: #148 HappyWarrior

I think what’s frustrating to me is the continued narrative of the “good guy” and “bad guy” when it comes to guns. I just think that’s dumbing things down way too much when gun related accidents are at way too highs. I get it. More gun safety but perhaps and this is more cultural critique than legal suggestion but perhaps we do have too many guns. I dunno. I just feel I read about too many situations where someone firing their gun too willingly over something that could have been resolved without going to the gun. What I resent and I think this is something we’ve all agreed on in past discussions is the tendency of the gun lobby to rely on people’s fears. I can remember the NRA and like minded groups pushing CLINTON IS GOING TO TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS, SO STOCK UP NOW in the 90’s when I was a kid. Obama becomes president and it’s rinse and repeat. I

We do have way too many guns in the wrong hands.

154 Lidane  May 11, 2014 5:57:11pm

re: #132 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not going to defend outliers like those you mention. And you don’t need a gun. It won’t improve anything for you as far as i can tell. But that’s you.

Ask D_L some time how much she enjoys the sport, the competition. How she likes having that defensive skill as a life long juvenile arthritis patient. it was part of our dating. She had never shot.

So what the heck is wrong with this picture? Nothing.

That’s just it. I’m not saying anything is wrong with it. Hell, I’ve shot guns before, but not in decades. Not since I was a kid.

I don’t have an issue with people owning guns. I don’t care if someone is a private collector, or a hunter, or if they go to the range to shoot. That’s fine. I’d probably consider learning how to shoot again solely at a range for sport if I was in a situation where I felt safe with it.

What I have a problem with is the implication that gun ownership or belonging to the “firearms community” somehow improves the country or improves society. I don’t see how one thing leads to the other. It makes no sense to me.

155 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:57:28pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

No I took account of the added emphasis as per your harsh language. I did you the favor of pointing out an impression you did not want to make to me. And now I’m taken to task for it.

You didn’t in any way say that you thought this was an impression I didn’t want to make, Please stop trying to take account of ‘added emphasis’ and the rest, and realize these ‘impressions’ are not actually reasonable interpretations of what I say. They’re stuff that you add onto it. You’ve made accusations along these lines a lot—that I want all guns to go away, that I want more laws regulating guns, etc—and they never wind up being true.

You should strongly consider accepting I made nothing up. At very worst that’s a misunderstanding.

Again: This is part of a pattern with you. You do this over and over, and I’d really like you to stop. This is another example of you doing it. Please try to consider how often you do this, and then stop.

156 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 5:58:31pm

re: #153 Rightwingconspirator

We do have way too many guns in the wrong hands.

Including the hands of average Joes living in safe neighborhoods who have guns for ‘self-defense’, based on a mistaken idea of how at-risk they are to violent attack.

157 Lidane  May 11, 2014 5:58:34pm

re: #143 HappyWarrior

I think when we’re talking public, what’s been talked about are places like bars, restaurants, movie theaters, churches, etc not private residences. To be completely truthful with you, if I were at a bar and I knew there was a person with a gun there, I wouldn’t want to be there.

I used to work in a bar. The day they allow guns in bars here in Texas is the day I stop going to bars altogether.

158 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 5:59:38pm

re: #157 Lidane

I used to work in a bar. The day they allow guns in bars here in Texas is the day I stop going to bars altogether.

You ain’t kidding. A bar is honestly one of the last places someone should be allowed to carry a gun.

159 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:01:11pm

re: #155 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Again: This is part of a pattern with you. You do this over and over, and I’d really like you to stop. This is another example of you doing it. Please try to consider how often you do this, and then stop.

Your insistence that I have a problem or that you have the superior interpretation of what I think…. Simply does not make it so. This is the part where you might just stop bothering me with this point. Please.

160 Decatur Deb  May 11, 2014 6:01:50pm

Checking into the new gun thread as a 2nd Amendment liberal. I’ve got a bunch of guns, all locked up and away from the ammunition. It would take me 10-15 minutes of clear-headed daylight to put them together. That’s possible because I live in rural Alabama, not fuckn’ Yemen.

161 ObserverArt  May 11, 2014 6:06:45pm

re: #111 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Now I’m having a flashback to the jogging enthusiasts of the early 90s. Christ they were annoying.

Oh there have been others! Fashion knows no bounds.

I always try to look at those people as reformers. They go from one extreme to the other. It becomes a religion and like all religions there are people to convert.

Sometimes it seems as if they need others to join in as a way to confirm and justify their own participation. A weird safety in numbers club-think.

162 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:07:48pm

re: #159 Rightwingconspirator

Your insistence that I have a problem or that you have the superior interpretation of what I think…. Simply does not make it so. This is the part where you might just stop bothering me with this point. Please.

I’m not going to stop pointing out when you’ve said that I want something, or have said something, that isn’t true.

163 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:10:25pm

Welp so much for just lurkin.

There is a study that some may find interesting to review. So far I have just skimmed through. Putting it in my kindle for a detailed read

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm
An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of
Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders
As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of
The Entire Texas Population
1996 - 1998, Revised to include 1999 and 2000 data

by William E. Sturdevant, PE,
August 24, 2001

The original study as posted in 2000.
|Chart| |Males| |Females| |Notes|

164 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:13:16pm

re: #163 Rightwingconspirator

What relevance does that study have to the topic?

165 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:17:12pm

re: #163 Rightwingconspirator

The basic problem with studies like that, and others of it’s ilk, is that to be robust it should compare CHL holders with those who are eligible to have CHL but don’t get one. Those would be the actual comparable populations where the variable of difference was CHL ownership. Otherwise, the easiest explanation for the difference is that the eligibility criteria are what constitute the difference.

But again, I’m not sure what that study has to do with what we were just talking about.

166 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 6:20:15pm

re: #153 Rightwingconspirator

We do have way too many guns in the wrong hands.

Right and frankly this poses a lot of difficult questions IMO- “How do we identify who those wrong hands are?” “How do we do the above mentioned legally” and my biggest question of all is “How do we change a mindset that thinks firing a gun in a dispute is the right answer?” A lot of these problems to me aren’t merely legal in magnitude but cultural as well. The guy who shot that guy for texting in the movie theater was a retired police captain not some guy who had no idea what he was doing but a former longtime police officer with extensive training with a firearm. To this I agree with Obdi in saying the gun groups are reminiscent of the tobacco companies acting like their products aren’t deadly. Guns are deadly. That’s why they’re used in combat.

167 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:22:06pm

re: #165 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The basic problem with studies like that, and others of it’s ilk, is that to be robust it should compare CHL holders with those who are eligible to have CHL but don’t get one. Those would be the actual comparable populations where the variable of difference was CHL ownership. Otherwise, the easiest explanation for the difference is that the eligibility criteria are what constitute the difference.

But again, I’m not sure what that study has to do with what we were just talking about.

I think the study acknowledged that factor.

How do you define the topic in an open thread ? I put that up as in adding a data set to the general gun stats conversations.

168 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:24:44pm

re: #166 HappyWarrior

Right and frankly this poses a lot of difficult questions IMO- “How do we identify who those wrong hands are?” “How do we do the above mentioned legally” and my biggest question of all is “How do we change a mindset that thinks firing a gun in a dispute is the right answer?” A lot of these problems to me aren’t merely legal in magnitude but cultural as well. The guy who shot that guy for texting in the movie theater was a retired police captain not some guy who had no idea what he was doing but a former longtime police officer with extensive training with a firearm. To this I agree with Obdi in saying the gun groups are reminiscent of the tobacco companies acting like their products aren’t deadly. Guns are deadly. That’s why they’re used in combat.

That would be why I don’t defend those points or those organizations. And that’s a place where i agree with many including of course Obdi.

169 HappyWarrior  May 11, 2014 6:30:41pm

re: #168 Rightwingconspirator

That would be why I don’t defend those points or those organizations. And that’s a place where i agree with many including of course Obdi.

Oh, I know. I’m just thinking about how too often I feel it’s dumbed down to good guys and bad guys. I don’t think anyone would have called that retired captain a bad guy prior to shooting the fellow movie goer. This is what I’m getting at when I say cultural. I’d really be more comfortable in a society where someone doesn’t need to bring a gun to something like watching a movie and better yet where me and him having an argument over texting needs to result in him firing his weapon at me. My question is how do we prevent things like that from happening in a manner that is legal. The problem is things like gun studies repeatedly get shot down by those aforementioned groups and while I know you do disagree with them, we both know that they have a lot of power and influence.

170 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:31:28pm

re: #167 Rightwingconspirator

I think the study acknowledged that factor.

It didn’t. If you think it did, please point out where. In the ‘purpose’ section it even says, clearly, that the purpose of the study was to compare CHL holders to the general pop, not to the specific cohort that would qualify for CHL but don’t get them.

How do you define the topic in an open thread ? I put that up as in adding a data set to the general gun stats conversations.

It’s a completely random figure, that has nothing to do with the topic of gun ownership advocacy, which is what we were talking about.

Edit; The study also has a horrible flaw in the conclusions:

Arrest data for Texas CHL holders indicate that violent crime is not a consequence of handgun ownership or possession.

That is not a conclusion that could be arrived at from this data, because CHL holders and handgun owners are not congruent populations.

171 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:40:41pm

re: #170 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It didn’t. If you think it did, please point out where. In the ‘purpose’ section it even says, clearly, that the purpose of the study was to compare CHL holders to the general pop, not to the specific cohort that would qualify for CHL but don’t get them.

Ahem. Completely random number? Sounds like an overstatement to me.

And I think this addresses your point if perhaps not to your particular satisfaction.

Comparison of the total group
Table 3. Comparison of Crime Rate of Texas Concealed Handgun Licensees v. The Entire Texas
Population shows the number of arrests, and the arrest rate, of CHL holders and the total
population in Texas.
With the information available, a juxtaposition of the arrest rates for Texas CHL holders and the
general public is the best, though imperfect, method of determining any negative effect (anAn Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders
21
increase in violent crime) of the Texas Concealed Handgun Law on Texas society. If allowing
normally law abiding and peaceful citizens to carry a weapon concealed on their person were to
somehow convert them into violent predators, it would be expected that CHL holders would have
a higher crime rate than unlicensed Texans. The comparison of arrest rates suggests just the
opposite - Texans licensed to carry a gun are much less violent than Texans who are not

172 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:45:02pm

Obdi.

Since the CCW permitees have such a lower crime rate as compared to the general population, it tells me we have an effective filter in the application process. And that some fears about those CCW holders have been misplaced.

173 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:47:51pm

re: #171 Rightwingconspirator

Ahem. Completely random number? Sounds like an overstatement to me.

It’s a completely random figure—as in, a completely random statistic—to introduce. There’s a ton of figures on gun safety we could look at. Why is that one pertinent to the idea of firearm evangelization?

And I think this addresses your point if perhaps not to your particular satisfaction.

It doesn’t address my point in the least.

The point is that the comparison should be between populations that are as like as possible. To get a CHL license, you have to fit a bunch of criteria. Many of those criteria have to do with not being a criminal in the first place, which are obvious confounders. Others are economic indicators which are more subtle confounders, but still definitely present.

What you cited doesn’t address this in the least.

This part:

If allowing normally law abiding and peaceful citizens to carry a weapon concealed on their person were to somehow convert them into violent predators,

Is true, if an enormous strawman that nobody has presented as a serious position.

This part:

The comparison of arrest rates suggests just the opposite - Texans licensed to carry a gun are much less violent than Texans who are not

Is true but not useful, since it might equally be true of CHL-eligible people who don’t own a gun.

Do you understand?

174 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 6:49:22pm

re: #172 Rightwingconspirator

Obdi.

Since the CCW permitees have such a lower crime rate as compared to the general population, it tells me we have an effective filter in the application process. And that some fears about those CCW holders have been misplaced.

Again: This isn’t what we were talking about. In fact, to the extent it is relevant, it adds more weight to my point than it does to yours. There’s a filter, a set of requirements, a gateway. It’s not about getting as many people as possible, but a limited subset of people. it’s about exclusion, not about inclusion.

175 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 6:53:11pm

re: #173 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I understand you just fine. And I brought another study to the general conversation on gun stats that is a part of so many gun debate comments. it is only indirectly tied to conversations about the merits of guns sports or ownership. Gun stat backgrounder.

Do you think the number of how much less likely it is for a CCW holder as compared the the population as described to be as irrelevant to everyone else as you take it to be? Or the rest of the study?

176 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 7:00:51pm

re: #175 Rightwingconspirator

I understand you just fine.

You don’t appear to, because what you cited doesn’t address what I’m saying.

And I brought another study to the general conversation on gun stats that is a part of so many gun debate comments. it is only indirectly tied to conversations about the merits of guns sports or ownership. Gun stat backgrounder.

Thank you for acknowledging that this was a very indirect thing to bring up.

Do you think the number of how much less likely it is for a CCW holder as compared the the population as described to be as irrelevant to everyone else as you take it to be? Or the rest of the study?

I think you missed something out that sentence—what is less likely—but again, you’re missing the point of what I’m saying.

What I’m saying is that you should compare like to like populations. As in, if you want to compare whether black people or white people commit more crimes, you should not compare only white people who have never committed a felony, not defaulted on a loan, etc., to the general black population. If you do so, you would naturally expect that white subgroup to be far less criminal than the black whole group, not for any reasons of race, but for those other, confounding reasons.

Do you understand this?

177 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 7:23:23pm

I simply find more merit in the comparison than you do Obdi, and what I clipped out outlines the method and the reasoning. It is what it is. Your view is a critics view. I await a qualified objective view.

178 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 7:31:54pm

re: #177 Rightwingconspirator

I simply find more merit in the comparison than you do Obdi, and what I clipped out outlines the method and the reasoning. It is what it is. Your view is a critics view. I await a qualified objective view.

First of all, why aren’t I a qualified objective view?

Second of all, you’re just not responding to what I’m saying. You don’t have a response to it, except to re-assert what you’re saying. I’m pointing out a specific problem with the survey—there are confounding factors—and you’re just saying ‘it is what it is’.

If I had ever argued that CCL carriers were more likely to be criminal, or if that argument had been made in general, this would be a slightly more understandable thing for you to suddenly pull out, but I haven’t, and that argument is not a generally made one.

The survey compares the highly selected subgroup of CWL carriers to the general population. The general population includes lots of people ineligible for CWL precisely because they have felonies. The survey is about criminality. I’m baffled as to how you can not understand that this is a confounding factor.

179 Rightwingconspirator  May 11, 2014 8:44:01pm

re: #178 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

If I had ever argued that CCL carriers were more likely to be criminal, or if that argument had been made in general, this would be a slightly more understandable thing for you to suddenly pull out, but I haven’t, and that argument is not a generally made one.

It’s a data set. Certain numbers, with one set (the authors) conclusions. That’s worth adding to the general discussion as far as I’m concerned. You don’t think so. I can live with that and let it stand. Like any study it has its limitations. Looks to me like the pdf contains the appropriate caveats. I see you disagree. Fine, Your point is noted. Why you think its necessary for you to have made that accusation for the point to be made is just beyond me.

We are talking past each other and I have better things to do.

180 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 11, 2014 8:54:00pm

re: #179 Rightwingconspirator

It’s a data set. Certain numbers, with one set (the authors) conclusions. That’s worth adding to the general discussion as far as I’m concerned. You don’t think so.

Again: I have a specific criticism of the study. You have no response to that, at all.

Like any study it has its limitations.

This is silly. First of all, some studies don’t have limitations, they’re an actual survey of something definite. Second of all, of surveys with limitations, some have more, and some have less. This one has a very large problem: it is comparing a specific subset of the population to a larger population, rather than a similar population. This survey shows us nothing, zero, zip, nada, niente, about the effect of having a CLL license, because it doesn’t compare those who have one with those who resemble those who have one but don’t.

Looks to me like the pdf contains the appropriate caveats.

It doesn’t. I challenged you to cite where it did. You failed to do so. This is not a formal paper, even though it’s oddly presented as though it is. There is no discussion section, the ‘conclusions’ section is actually a ‘findings’ section. That the paper says that this comparison is the best but imperfect method is not sufficient.

We are talking past each other and I have better things to do.

We are not talking past each other. You are ignoring the specific, legitimate criticism I’m making of the study—a study which is a red herring, having nothing to do with the previous conversation, and as usual, you simply bail on the conversation without actually engaging with my argument, and after having made up shit that I didn’t say.

I wish you would stop doing that.


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