1 Kragar  May 27, 2014 11:58:23am

The GOP takeaway: “He wants to end wars? What a weakling!”

2 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 11:59:17am

And by tomorrow morning, every wingnut in America will be screeching “He’s telling the enemy when to strike! He’s broadcasting our game plan! HE’S PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!!!”

3 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:02:57pm

re: #2 Targetpractice

And by tomorrow morning, every wingnut in America will be screeching “He’s telling the enemy when to strike! He’s broadcasting our game plan! HE’S PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!!!”

“First he said 98,000. What is he trying to cover up?”

4 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:04:13pm

From the fringes:

• 9,800 troops to remain! War Monger!

• Peacenick commie weakling appeasing Muslims!

5 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 12:05:35pm
6 blueraven  May 27, 2014 12:05:44pm

Eh…he will get some grief from the right and the left.
But I believe in general, leaving 9800 troops for a couple of years will be supported.

7 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 12:06:20pm

re: #4 Gus

From the fringes:

• 9,800 troops to remain! War Monger!

• Peacenick commie weakling appeasing Muslims!

I take the position in-between: Time to get the fuck out. This war’s going nowhere and our “advisers” deserve to come home now. If the Afghan military’s not ready to stand on its own after a decade, it’s never going to be ready.

8 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:07:45pm

re: #5 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

9 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 12:12:45pm
11 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 12:13:59pm

I get the feeling Americans are wishing the Afghanistan War would just go away at this point.

12 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:15:56pm

O.o

13 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 12:16:13pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

I get the feeling Americans are wishing the Afghanistan War would just go away at this point.

They’ll get their wish. As our involvement winds down we’ll hear less and less about Afghanistan. It’ll be like it never happened once we’re out.

14 Shiplord Kirel  May 27, 2014 12:16:38pm

Seriously evil tin foiler shit at Free Republic:
Zbigniew Brzezinski Views American Public as Stupid, Ignorant Proles

Rothschild Zionist Zbigniew Brzeziński bluntly states his view on the American public as mindless workers who are ignorant and interested in watching mindless television, hence supporting the view of the NWO to rule over these mindless masses “for their own good”.

A creator of the infamous Trilateral Commission, with Federal Reserve owner David Rockefeller, Brzeziński is one of the most blatant commanders of the New World Order and was one of the lead strategists behind the “War on Terror” and build up of Islamic Fundamentalism in order to create World War 3.

Learn how Brzeziński moulded the United States presidency into his own tyrannical image and see how Barack Obama was influenced and shaped by him. (emphasis added)

Not too many years ago, the Freeper mods would have deleted this garbage instantly. Now it is getting a pretty favorable response from the assembled hordes, with a few dissenters agreeing with Brzeziński. Not that it’s important, but Brzezinski is not in fact Jewish.

15 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 12:17:08pm

re: #12 Gus

[Embedded content]

O.o

If that’s the way they wish to spin it, go ahead. If we’re at war with the Taliban, it’s because we picked a war with them in the first place. We turned what was supposed to be a war with the people who killed nearly 3,000 Americans into a nation-building exercise, one which has gone tits-up.

16 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:17:50pm

re: #12 Gus

[Embedded content]

O.o

Having their government toppled and forced to live in caves for a decade = winning?

17 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 12:18:55pm

The situation in Afghanistan is an intolerable one for which there are no easy answers. It’s not just Afghanistan but Pakistan and the frontier provinces from which the Taliban are able to use as safe havens. You can’t address one without addressing the other, and the Pakistanis are unwilling/incapable of doing anything about the frontier provinces which are semi autonomous and crackdowns there by the military have led to blowback in Islamabad.

Reducing the number of troops and eventually turning over security to Afghanistan are good, and having an idea of when to do so is also good - in theory. The military needs to prepare for the eventual withdrawal and having a timetable addresses those logistical needs.

In practice the timetables give the opposition something to target and can fashion a strategy based on what the US does. It can put our troops in more danger as the troop numbers are reduced over time and could expose weaknesses in troop locations.

At the same time, some of this is contingent upon getting a status of forces agreement (SOFA) that the US would accept - including addressing the issue of immunity for US forces from prosecution by the Afghan government. This issue led to withdrawal of US forces from Iraq earlier than anticipated because a SOFA couldn’t be worked out.

All this leaves Afghanistan to more or less stand on its own at the mercy of the Taliban once again to be resurgent. The Afghan military might have some capable leaders and some capable units, but there are significant areas of concern (article as of September 2013).

In Kabul there are constant worries about the impact on morale if troops and civilians feel abandoned by their former backers.

And so a security handover driven by a political imperative is being presented, in part, as a response to the improving capacity of the Afghan security forces.

The political theatre reached a peak earlier this year at the 18 June ceremony to mark “milestone 13”, the handover of security control. Karzai and Barack Obama had agreed it would happen before the summer, so officials chose almost the last day of spring for the ceremony.

Security was so tight that diplomats and journalists were flown across the city in helicopters, to hear speeches about how effective the army and police were at protecting the country. Western military officials were ordered into civilian clothes or dress uniform, so the television images showed Afghan viewers familiar only with combat fatigues a crowd that appeared to already have been stripped of foreign military.

Politicians hailed the completion of a security transfer that Dunford later admitted was still very much underway in the most dangerous parts of the country. The handover has been a rolling process and the final areas chosen for the final - “tranche five” -stage, which make up about a quarter of Afghanistan’s 398 districts, had not yet been transferred.

“At the national level, primary responsibility for security is with the ministry of defence and ministry of interior, and I am in support. In some of the tranche five areas, we still have security responsibility as a result of not completing the process,” Dunford told a news conference at coalition headquarters in Kabul.

That is not to say there have been improvements, particularly since Nato began focusing seriously on training in 2009, and the long, slow security transfer began in 2011. The police and army, now 350,000strong, are almost unrecognisable from the small, fragmented forces of several years ago.

Some areas are particularly strong. Afghans are brave, even when ill-equipped, and special forces have an impressive record despite the recent departure of a police general who commanded many of them.

18 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 12:20:58pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

They’ll get their wish. As our involvement winds down we’ll hear less and less about Afghanistan. It’ll be like it never happened once we’re out.

Yep, just like Vietnam.
Oh, wait…

19 b.d.  May 27, 2014 12:21:05pm

re: #12 Gus

[Embedded content]

O.o

Vox has grown very wearisome already.

I wish the fad of Dudebrospainin’ journalism would just go away already.

20 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 12:21:06pm

re: #12 Gus

[Embedded content]

O.o

Looks like Vox has decided on the click bait business model. I thought their article about “Putin has fallen into Obama’s clever trap” article was stupid clickbait too. So it looks like Vox is going to be a bit like Mediaite. Just a collection of outrage inducing clickbait without a partisan agenda. Some Clikcbait for the lefy, some clikcbait for the right. Meh, I was hoping for more. Oh well.

21 Bulworth  May 27, 2014 12:21:21pm

Brzeziński is one of the most blatant commanders of the New World Order

Fascinating! How do the FEMA death camp trailer parks fit into this? //

22 b.d.  May 27, 2014 12:22:11pm

The bright side is, that at this rate, in 5 years Russia will be ready to go back to Afghanistan again.

//

23 RealityBasedSteve  May 27, 2014 12:22:45pm

re: #15 Targetpractice

If that’s the way they wish to spin it, go ahead. If we’re at war with the Taliban, it’s because we picked a war with them in the first place. We turned what was supposed to be a war with the people who killed nearly 3,000 Americans into a nation-building exercise, one which has gone tits-up.

I’ve not heard anybody use the “Tango-Uniform” expression for quite a while.

RBS

24 Shiplord Kirel  May 27, 2014 12:24:08pm

re: #21 Bulworth

Brzeziński is one of the most blatant commanders of the New World Order

Fascinating! How do the FEMA death camp trailer parks fit into this? //

That’s where he plans to put the anti-Zionist, Bible reading, gun owning patriots before their final disposition. Of course, the first inmates will have to be the incompetent contractors and lackeys who have failed to finish the camps and get them operational even after 30 years.

25 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 12:24:17pm

Glenn linking to crazypants anti-Semitic hate site.

26 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 12:24:26pm

re: #18 Backwoods_Sleuth

Yep, just like Vietnam.
Oh, wait…

The Vietnam war had a whole culture to it (or at least opposing it). Not so much with Afghanistan, Anti-war protests disappeared when Obama took office. Sure there will be some Afghanistan war movies from time to time but Americans don;t care about what’s happening in Afghanistan now and they’ll care even less once we leave.

27 Bulworth  May 27, 2014 12:25:45pm

Won’t comment on Afghanistan until I hear what Half governor Palin has to say about it. ///

28 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 12:26:18pm

re: #23 RealityBasedSteve

I’ve not heard anybody use the “Tango-Uniform” expression for quite a while.

RBS

Haven’t used it in awhile myself, which is funny for a guy who’s lived his life around military aviation in one form or another.

29 Bulworth  May 27, 2014 12:27:15pm

Hmmm, Jonathan Alter does not sound pleased with the dudebros….

30 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:27:40pm

re: #12 Gus

There’s no sugar-coating Obama’s drawdown announcement: the Taliban has won vox.com

O.o

And if only Max Fisher had fought there, we’d have won.

31 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 12:28:30pm
32 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 12:28:30pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

The Vietnam war had a whole culture to it (or at least opposing it). Not so much with Afghanistan, Anti-war protests disappeared when Obama took office. Sure there will be some Afghanistan war movies from time to time but Americans don;t care about what’s happening in Afghanistan now and they’ll care even less once we leave.

There’s a bit of a difference between 50,000 dead Americans and 2,000 dead Americans. Both leave scars, but the former leaves a whole lot more of them.

33 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:30:20pm

How is this a victory for the Taliban?

34 Bulworth  May 27, 2014 12:31:19pm

Oh wait, stop the presses…

Joe the fake plumber has uttered words on the Santa Barbara shootings….

35 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 12:31:50pm

re: #32 wrenchwench

There’s a bit of a difference between 50,000 dead Americans and 2,000 dead Americans. Both leave scars, but the former leaves a whole lot more of them.

Yes, and to someone whose child/sibling/spouse is among the dead, hearing someone blowing off a war as “easily forgotten” is downright heartless.

36 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 12:31:56pm

re: #32 wrenchwench

Let’s keep in mind most of the losses had nothing to do with the overturning of the Taliban. That happened long ago. The losses were a far tougher mission-Nation building. The part our allies largely wimped out on. For all the critics wailing about our motives, it was a kinder harder choice to not just up and bail on them.

37 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:32:39pm
38 simoom  May 27, 2014 12:34:11pm

nbcnews.com

After months of preparation and negotiation, “Nightly News” anchor and managing editor Brian Williams met former NSA contractor Edward Snowden last week in Moscow for his first interview with a U.S. television network.

This video contains the first images of their five-hour meeting at the Hotel Baltschug Kempinski just across the Moscow River from the Kremlin and Red Square.

spiegel.de

Snowden’s Russian guards prohibit him from receiving visitors in the safe house. Anyone who wants to see him has to enter into lengthy negotiations, as Ströbele did. The procedure is always the same: Guests are driven to a secret rendezvous point, where Snowden meets with them. The same protocol applied to his father, who went to Moscow in early October, that applied to Ströbele’s delegation last week.

Were the negotiations through Greenwald & Co.? Through Wikileaks? Directly with Russian security services? With Snowden’s Russian lawyer (who’s on a board overseeing the FSB)? It also would be nice if NBC made clear exactly what terms they agreed to in order to win the 1st-US-television interview bidding war.

39 gwangung  May 27, 2014 12:35:08pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

Let’s keep in mind most of the losses had nothing to do with the overturning of the Taliban. That happened long ago. The losses were a far tougher mission-Nation building. The part our allies largely wimped out on. For all the critics wailing about our motives, it was a kinder harder choice to not just up and bail on them.

This assumes that we have expertise at nation building. I think everyone over-estimates our capability at this—-the batting average is far lower than what people think.

And we didn’t help ourselves diverting our attention to Iraq at a critical time.

40 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 12:35:14pm
41 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 12:35:18pm
42 b.d.  May 27, 2014 12:35:20pm

Vox. com, the website for those who are too sophisticated to go to a website with sideboob.

43 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:35:35pm

Next up, Vox explains how the Japanese guy who lived on an island for 30 years ready for the US invasion proves Japan won WWII

44 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:36:29pm

re: #43 Kragar

Next up, Vox explains how the Japanese guy who lived on an island for 30 years ready for the US invasion proves Japan won WWII

Tweet that.

45 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 12:37:37pm

re: #33 Gus

There’s still a government in Kabul that has a pretty sizable military at its disposal. They’d still be backstopped by US assistance through this entire time frame, and I’d imagine the Taliban would still see their fair share of UAV drone attacks against top leaders like we’re seeing in Yemen and elsewhere. We might not have boots on the ground, but we’ll be denying them the ability to return to power in Kabul.

It’s still a concern that they’ve got the ability to reconstitute over the border in Pakistan and cause trouble in the neighboring provinces.

46 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:38:13pm
47 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 12:38:39pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I think that guy is a 9/11 Tr00fer too.

He was a dudebro before it was cool.

48 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:38:56pm

re: #39 gwangung

This assumes that we have expertise at nation building. I think everyone over-estimates our capability at this—-the batting average is far lower than what people think.

And we didn’t help ourselves diverting our attention to Iraq at a critical time.

Before you can build a nation you have to be sure that it isn’t already built to suit the inhabitants. Most people who wanted Afghanistan to be a modern western-oriented secular democracy are dead.

49 RealityBasedSteve  May 27, 2014 12:39:59pm

re: #42 b.d.

Vox. com, the website for those who are too sophisticated to go to a website with sideboob.

you are NEVER too sophisticated for sideboob.

RBS

50 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:41:40pm

re: #46 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Germany is still around. Ergo, the Germans won WW2.

51 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 12:41:54pm

re: #47 Jack Burton

I think that guy is a 9/11 Tr00fer too.

He was a dudebro before it was cool.

Justin Raimondo posted a few comments here at LGF back in the day, about his antisemitic conspiracy theories that Israel knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. I eventually blocked him.

52 gwangung  May 27, 2014 12:42:17pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Before you can build a nation you have to be sure that it isn’t already built to suit the inhabitants. Most people who wanted Afghanistan to be a modern western-oriented secular democracy are dead.

True for us, irrelevant to neo-cons.

53 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:42:52pm

re: #50 Gus

Germany is still around. Ergo, the Germans won WW2.

We still have southern states, so the Confederacy won the Civil War

54 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 12:43:19pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Before you can build a nation you have to be sure that it isn’t already built to suit the inhabitants. Most people who wanted Afghanistan to be a modern western-oriented secular democracy are dead.

Or in exile. I knew a couple of them in Berlin.

55 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:43:32pm

re: #53 Kragar

We still have southern states, so the Confederacy won the Civil War

Is it over?

56 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 12:43:40pm

re: #39 gwangung

This assumes that we have expertise at nation building. I think everyone over-estimates our capability at this—-the batting average is far lower than what people think.

And we didn’t help ourselves diverting our attention to Iraq at a critical time.

I don’t think we assumed that at all. We assumed it just had to be done. Did the critics not rightly point out how it was the post soviet abandonment of Afghanistan that led to Bin Laden & the Taliban extremists having so much influence there?

The invasion of Iraq certainly upset the hunt for Bin Laden and the war on the retreating Taliban. Hurt the nation building? Not so sure about that part.

57 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 12:44:26pm

On Hallucinating “What The Left Believes”

a sample of the alternate universe of those who can’t accept reality

an article by one victor davis hanson entitled ‘lord obama’

first, massive cognitive dissonance

If we were living in normal times, the following scandals and failures — without going into foreign policy — would have ruined a presidency to the point of reducing it to Nixon, Bush, or Truman poll ratings.

Think of the following: the Fast and Furious scandal, the VA mess, the tapping of the communications of the Associated Press reporters, the NSA monitoring

simply put, “this isn’t happening”

So why is there not much public reaction or media investigatory outrage?

rationalization time

1) His record support among minorities will not change…

blah people excuse, again

2) The media is not just overwhelmingly hard left, but hard left with a chip on its shoulder that its own views are neither accepted by the majority nor usually implemented by government.

a rationization within a rationalization within a hallucination of ‘what the left believes’

But for now, the media is invested in seeing Obama as a once-in-a-lifetime emissary of its own politics.

3) The well-off are indifferent to the Obama record, interested only in its symbolic resonance. Doctrinaire liberalism resonates mostly with the very wealthy. We see that by the voting patterns of our bluest counties, or the contributions of the very affluent. In contrast, Republicanism is mostly embedded within the middle class and upper middle class, while liberalism is a coalition of the affluent and the poor.

really rich people and really poor people are the enemy here. only “middle class and upper middle class” are good. it doesn’t matter what the labels or rationalizations are, it’s merely ‘us against them’ yet again

I leave you with one final paradox. Is one reason that Obama resonates so well with the very wealthy his assurance to them that the muscular successful classes will not be following them into the elite?

Whom does the liberal elite detest? Not the very poor. Not the middle class. Not the conservative wealthy of like class. Mostly it is the Sarah-Palin-type grasping want-to-be’s (thus the vicious David Letterman jokes or Katie Couric animus or Bill Maher venom)

in the old days, people with rich fantasy lives like this would be found trying to grab the attention of other people who happened to wander into the diner that they spent all of their time in

these days, they make a living writing about it

58 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 12:44:42pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Before you can build a nation you have to be sure that it isn’t already built to suit the inhabitants. Most people who wanted Afghanistan to be a modern western-oriented secular democracy are dead.

Or gave up and emigrated to the west.

59 darthstar  May 27, 2014 12:45:19pm

re: #49 RealityBasedSteve

you are NEVER too sophisticated for sideboob.

RBS

I like sideboob.

60 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 12:46:51pm

Well, I’m happy on 2 fronts: That we’re pretty much getting out of Afghanistan, and two, my great-grandson finally graduated. From kindergarten. It was lovely and the teacher could barely hold back the tears. Z is reading very well for a lad of 5, also. Class of 2026, here he comes!

61 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 12:49:16pm

re: #55 Decatur Deb

Is it over?

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? /

62 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:50:06pm
63 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 12:50:23pm

re: #61 lawhawk

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? /

Germans?

64 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 12:50:44pm

re: #39 gwangung

This assumes that we have expertise at nation building. I think everyone over-estimates our capability at this—-the batting average is far lower than what people think.

And we didn’t help ourselves diverting our attention to Iraq at a critical time.

The only time we’ve been good at nation-building was post WW2, and in that case we had fear of the Soviets coming in to do their own as a motivator.

We also had a top tax rate of 91-92% that kicked in at $200k (equivalent to about 1.9-2 million now) during the Marshall Plan years.

65 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 12:51:05pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

Germans?

Forget it he’s rolling.

66 Gus  May 27, 2014 12:51:21pm

re: #55 Decatur Deb

Is it over?

Ironically, Vox would have a think piece saying yes. So to speak.

67 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 12:51:29pm

The Trio of Republican Derp says,

Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., Lindsey Graham, R-SC, and Kelly Ayotte, R-NH, on Afghanistan troop withdrawal: President Obama’s ‘decision to set an arbitrary date for the full withdrawal of US troops in Afghanistan is a monumental mistake and a triumph of politics over strategy’ - statement
End of alert

68 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:51:57pm

re: #57 dog philosopher

Not going to give that putrid slavery-apologist a click, but I’m glad to finally know what I believe.

69 Targetpractice  May 27, 2014 12:52:09pm

re: #67 Justanotherhuman

The Trio of Republican Derp says,

Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., Lindsey Graham, R-SC, and Kelly Ayotte, R-NH, on Afghanistan troop withdrawal: President Obama’s ‘decision to set an arbitrary date for the full withdrawal of US troops in Afghanistan is a monumental mistake and a triumph of politics over strategy’ - statement
End of alert

Ah, the trio of Goofus, Doofus, and Mini-McCain.

70 b.d.  May 27, 2014 12:52:33pm

re: #62 Gus

[Embedded content]

YES! AND CARS ALSO COME WITH A BUILT IN CLOCK THAT BREAKS THINGS AS SOON AS YOU GO OUT OF WARRANTY

71 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 12:52:55pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Before you can build a nation you have to be sure that it isn’t already built to suit the inhabitants. Most people who wanted Afghanistan to be a modern western-oriented secular democracy are dead.

Yeah the Taliban killed most of them off before we invaded.

Look at what started to happen sixty years ago-
damnfreshpics.com

I don’t buy into the idea that the bulk of the population want Taliban/10th century lifestyle and politics. Certainly not the young women who want to read and get an education.

72 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:53:17pm

re: #66 Gus

Ironically, Vox would have a think piece saying yes. So to speak.

Vox doesn’t live in Baja Alabama.

73 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 12:53:36pm

re: #33 Gus

How is this a victory for the Taliban?

I disagree more with the tone of the Vox article than the actual content. The Taliban has been safe in Pakistan and I’m sure they’re happy that the Americans are leaving. They may not retake all of Afghanistan again but they’ll try.

74 darthstar  May 27, 2014 12:53:45pm

re: #70 b.d.

YES! AND CARS ALSO COME WITH A BUILT IN CLOCK THAT BREAKS THINGS AS SOON AS YOU GO OUT OF WARRANTY

Nice features…how long will it last?

Oh, 36 months or 30,000 miles…whichever comes first.

75 b.d.  May 27, 2014 12:53:49pm

re: #70 b.d.

YES! AND CARS ALSO COME WITH A BUILT IN CLOCK THAT BREAKS THINGS AS SOON AS YOU GO OUT OF WARRANTY

AND SOME OF THE NEWER BUILDINGS ARE BEING BUILT PREWIRED FOR DEMOLITION!

//

76 Bulworth  May 27, 2014 12:53:59pm

Do our personal computers now come with NSA-spyware? Hey, man, we’re just asking questions!!!1

77 Minor_L  May 27, 2014 12:54:28pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Raimondo is crazy. He has zero credibility on anything, and is maybe more agenda-driven than Greenwald himself. Greenwald seriously citing to him is hilarious.

I am also tired of digby’s knee jerk Greenwald defense on everything (which, a lot of times, amounts to “I know you are, but what am I?”). She is a smart lady, but she seems to have become one of the sycophants. I thought she was better than that.

78 Kragar  May 27, 2014 12:54:53pm

re: #59 darthstar

I like sideboob.

underboob > sideboob

79 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 12:57:03pm

Haha, the 4 yr old was with me and on entering the school house and taking a small tour, said, “I want to teach.” Just out of the blue.

He wants to go to school so badly he can taste it. Hopefully, that will happen soon w/daycare since he’ll be 5-1/2 when he enters kindergarten, another 1-1/2 yrs.

80 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 12:57:05pm

re: #71 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah the Taliban killed most of them off before we invaded.

damnfreshpics.com

I don’t buy into the idea that the bulk of the population want Taliban/10th century lifestyle and politics. Certainly not the young women who want to read and get an education.

The Taliban are latecomers—they were welcomed as a stabilizing force after the chaos the Russians left behind. I’m not volunteering to do a door-to-door opinion poll in Helmand province.

81 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 12:57:44pm
82 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 12:58:12pm

re: #78 Kragar

Or, you can have both.

83 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 12:59:16pm

re: #64 Jack Burton

The only time we’ve been good at nation-building was post WW2, and in that case we had fear of the Soviets coming in to do their own as a motivator.

We also had a top tax rate of 91-92% that kicked in at $200k (equivalent to about 1.9-2 million now) during the Marshall Plan years.

Post WWII reconstruction in Europe was a vastly easier mission than nation building in Afghanistan.

84 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 1:00:32pm

re: #62 Gus

Oh brother. “Do Personal Computers Come With NSA Surveillance Devices Built-In As Standard?”

No. Next question dudebros.

85 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 1:01:38pm

Indeed.

86 sagehen  May 27, 2014 1:01:39pm

The Europeans actually know something about construction, having done it the first time, so helping them re-do it was just a matter of supplying materials and some accountants to keep tabs on the payroll.

87 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:02:14pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

I disagree more with the tone of the Vox article than the actual content. The Taliban has been safe in Pakistan and I’m sure they’re happy that the Americans are leaving. They may not retake all of Afghanistan again but they’ll try.

And before 9/11 the USA basically didn’t even care about what was going on in Afghanistan. I need not describe the situation Afghanistan was in prior to 9/11. The comparison between then and now is a mile wide as it is deep. Pakistan is from where they came. We were always allies with Pakistan throughout the GWOT. Pakistan is not averse to conducting military operations against Taliban and AQ within their borders. It’s been 13 years. One of the longest wars in the history of the USA. They have their own security and military force now. They have relatively free and democratic elections. The Taliban no longer rules the day in Afghanistan as they once did. This is hardly a victory for the Taliban. With the troops that remain it should be more than enough to plan for any known unknown military contingencies.

88 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:02:56pm

The Burka Avenger: Pakistan’s Female Superhero!

Burka Avenger, produced by Unicorn Black is the first ever animated superhero series made in Pakistan. The protagonist of the show is Jiya, an inspirational school teacher whose alter ego is the super hero Burka Avenger. Her use of books and pens as weapons is symbolic on many levels. The Burka Avenger fights for Justice, Peace and Education for all.

89 simoom  May 27, 2014 1:05:09pm

Semi-mangled Google translation from German Snowden Q&A:

stern.de

[T]he accusation that cooperate with the Russian government, or even with the Russian secret service FSB, as is now the former KGB colonel Oleg Kalugin claims dismissed Snowden with sharply as “absurd” and “ridiculous” back. With the cancellation of his passport to him the U.S. had placed at his stopover in Moscow a year ago in fact a trap. “The U.S. knew that Russia was not my goal. And what could offer me the Russian government already?” If it were up to him for money, Snowden said he would accept only one of the numerous book deals or could he accept a board position in a digital company. If personal safety is his priority, “I would never have left Hawaii.” Oleg Kalugin was a defector who had betrayed his country “for a check” of the CIA.

Isn’t this crack by Snowden kind of bizarre? I guess he doesn’t consider himself a defector and he somehow feels he’s not being compensated by the Kremlin? Russian Security services are providing him constant body guards, the government is shielding him from criminal prosecution, and according to his Russian lawyer they set him up with a Russian social media “job” as of last November (a simple way to launder the source of his walking around money).

Also, isn’t there something truly off-key about Snowden attacking Russian defectors for their betrayal, simply because it makes it sound like he’s arguing for the wrong team? Shouldn’t he be celebrating his country’s human intelligence assets if he’s the loyal patriot he claims to be?

90 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:05:31pm

It’s also rather absurd to think we’ll ever reach that perfect place in Afghanistan. You know. Afghanistan. Remember? Might take another 500 years… Carry on.

91 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:06:14pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

The Burka Avenger: Pakistan’s Female Superhero!

Quite neat. The telling will be in the proportion of Pakistani kids who get to see it.

92 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:06:38pm

They’re still fighting FARC in Columbia and Brazil. They’re still fighting guerrillas in the Philippines.

93 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 1:07:30pm

Cannot imagine that anyone believes this bullshit. Of course, these people are concentrating strictly on radical Muslims, none other. Makes you wonder what others were on that panel and what they said, though, doesn’t it? Godwald is always looking for confirmation of his own views, not real discussion.

94 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:07:56pm

re: #87 Gus

With the troops that remain it should be more than enough to plan for any known unknown military contingencies.

Keep in mind the headline “White House: US will have 9800 troops in Afghanistan after 2014” is technically correct but misleading. By 2016 we’ll just have embassy security. The Taliban is more than happy to wait 2 more years and try their luck with the Afghan military.

95 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 1:08:36pm
96 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:09:16pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Quite neat. The telling will be in the proportion of Pakistani kids who get to see it.

Here’s the website with videos and music
burkaavenger.com

97 Shiplord Kirel  May 27, 2014 1:09:52pm

re: #93 Justanotherhuman

Cannot imagine that anyone believes this bullshit. Of course, these people are concentrating strictly on radical Muslims, none other. Makes you wonder what others were on that panel and what they said, though, doesn’t it? Godwald is always looking for confirmation of his own views, not real discussion.

Glenn Greenwald ✔ @ggreenwald
Follow

Was on a panel today w/a former French minister & intelligence official; both said terror threat is wildly exaggerated - inconceivable in US

[Embedded content]

I wonder if GG believes the threat of unrest in Brazil is wildly exaggerated and the military campaign in the favelas therefore unjustified?

98 klys  May 27, 2014 1:09:53pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Keep in mind the headline “White House: US will have 9800 troops in Afghanistan after 2014” is technically correct but misleading. By 2016 we’ll just have embassy security. The Taliban is more than happy to wait 2 more years and try their luck with the Afghan military.

So are you taking a position that we should just keep troops over there indefinitely?

As always, it’s hard to tell.

99 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:10:23pm

Burka Avenger Episode 01 (w/ English Subtitles)
Youtube Video

The music is great

100 b.d.  May 27, 2014 1:10:34pm

re: #93 Justanotherhuman

Cannot imagine that anyone believes this bullshit. Of course, these people are concentrating strictly on radical Muslims, none other. Makes you wonder what others were on that panel and what they said, though, doesn’t it? Godwald is always looking for confirmation of his own views, not real discussion.

[Embedded content]

LOL, I wonder if Glenn will get one of the Ignio Montoyabot tweets?

101 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:11:06pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Keep in mind the headline “White House: US will have 9800 troops in Afghanistan after 2014” is technically correct but misleading. By 2016 we’ll just have embassy security. The Taliban is more than happy to wait 2 more years and try their luck with the Afghan military.

After the Soviets left Afghanistan we didn’t care one bit about Afghanistan. Is this a new tradition? Right now the USA has put a responsibility for Afghanistan that never existed prior to 9/11. The Taliban continues to launch there small attack to this day. It will continue. The Taliban is in no position militarily to launch a combat operation that will lead to the Afghanistan government as it is today. They will also be receiving assistance from our trade partner, China.

102 blueraven  May 27, 2014 1:11:47pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Looks like Vox has decided on the click bait business model. I thought their article about “Putin has fallen into Obama’s clever trap” article was stupid clickbait too. So it looks like Vox is going to be a bit like Mediaite. Just a collection of outrage inducing clickbait without a partisan agenda. Some Clikcbait for the lefy, some clikcbait for the right. Meh, I was hoping for more. Oh well.

It was the same writer for both articles. Fisher is a hardliner who berated the strategy but was forced to admit that Obama’s strategy of wait and see in Ukraine was the right call.

the title was:
Obama’s plan to let Putin hang himself is working

Looks like he has reverted to form.

103 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:12:27pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Keep in mind the headline “White House: US will have 9800 troops in Afghanistan after 2014” is technically correct but misleading. By 2016 we’ll just have embassy security. The Taliban is more than happy to wait 2 more years and try their luck with the Afghan military.

And if the experience of the NVA occupation of Ho Chi Min City is a predictor, Taliban Kabul will be a major supplier of something to Walmart by 2026.

104 aagcobb  May 27, 2014 1:12:56pm

Murdoch rag New York Post blames young blond girl for California massacre because she didn’t realize Rodger had a secret crush on her, so she didn’t realize she needed to let him fuck her.

105 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:12:57pm

re: #98 klys

So are you taking a position that we should just keep troops over there indefinitely?

As always, it’s hard to tell.

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

106 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:13:37pm

Wait 2 year and something might happen. Sure. Let’s assume a span of 2,000 years in the history of Afghanistan and warlords and the Taliban.

2/2,000 X 100 = and you’re looking at 0.1 percent of a 2,000 year span.

107 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:13:38pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

And if the experience of the NVA occupation of Ho Chi Min City is a predictor, Taliban Kabul will be a major supplier of something to Walmart by 2026.

lol

108 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:14:10pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

What better job?

109 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:14:29pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

Like Iraq?

110 klys  May 27, 2014 1:14:45pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

Ok. You wish that.

In the meantime, having family members who served over in Afghanistan, I’m going to cheer bringing the troops home.

111 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:14:56pm

People that think we can KILL all the Taliban and Al Qaeda are delusional.

112 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:16:21pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

You go to war with the corrupt local power structure you have, not the corrupt local power structure you might want.

113 blueraven  May 27, 2014 1:18:10pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

You keep saying that, but fail to say how we could have done a better job, what you think we did wrong, and what we should do now.

Easy to criticize when you don’t have to put forth anything at all.

114 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 1:18:34pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Nope. I just wish we’d done a better job.

It’s almost like attempting to democratize places is difficult and unpredictable or something.

115 Jack Burton  May 27, 2014 1:18:40pm

re: #111 Gus

People that think we can KILL all the Taliban and Al Qaeda are delusional.

Go to Afghanistan and kill everyone.

EVERYONE!!!!1!!11ty

116 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:19:24pm

Why not go back to before 9/11 and the invasion. When the Taliban controlled almost every part of Afghanistan. When they stoned and executed women, and men, on a regular basis. When the Taliban would walk the street with the hands of men who had their hand chopped off for petty larceny. When women were oppressed beyond anything seen in modern times. When all of that was going on and the USA did not even care other than the minor blip of “Charlie Wilson’s war.” That Afghanistan? This isn’t a good enough job? Seeing people with the blue dye on their fingers and flipping the bird to the Taliban and uploading pics to Twitter? From Afghanistan directly? Not good enough?

117 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 1:21:50pm

re: #116 Gus

Why not go back to before 9/11 and the invasion. When the Taliban controlled almost every part of Afghanistan. When they stoned and executed women, and men, on a regular basis. When the Taliban would walk the street with the hands of men who had their hand chopped off for petty larceny. When women were oppressed beyond anything seen in modern times. When all of that was going on and the USA did not even care other than the minor blip of “Charlie Wilson’s war.” That Afghanistan? This isn’t a good enough job? Seeing people with the blue dye on their fingers and flipping the bird to the Taliban and uploading pics to Twitter? From Afghanistan directly? Not good enough?

THIS. A hundred times, this.

118 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:25:33pm

re: #108 Gus

What better job?

I would have preferred we leave behind a stable democracy. I’m not expecting perfection but something along the lines of Iraq. Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension but the government is stable and not in danger of collapsing or being overthrown. I don;t think we’re leaving behind a stable government in Afghanistan.

119 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:26:13pm

Another thing too was that there was no surge under Bush. The surge in Afghanistan was prompted by Obama. Combat operations and boots on the ground spiked up considerably.

120 lawhawk  May 27, 2014 1:27:07pm

re: #116 Gus

Or the Taliban destroying the cultural heritage of 2,000+ years of being at the crossroads of cultures and religion on the Silk Road; the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Those statutes and cultural artifacts were a potential revenue source for tourism, but they blew them to smithereens. In fact, it was the destruction of the Buddhas that got some people to recognize just how extreme the Taliban were.

Efforts to rebuild them are believed to be a way to get more money flowing into the region and build up a tourism industry there.

121 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:27:22pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I would have preferred we leave behind a stable democracy. I’m not expecting perfection but something along the lines of Iraq. Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension but the government is stable and not in danger of collapsing or being overthrown. I don;t think we’re leaving behind a stable government in Afghanistan.

We don’t even have a stable democracy in New Jersey and Louisiana. Tough job trying to create a stable democracy that came from one of the most primitive states in the 21st century.

122 simoom  May 27, 2014 1:27:30pm

re: #62 Gus

[Embedded content]

Betteridge’s law of headlines

“[A]ny headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word “no”. The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bullshit, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it.”

123 klys  May 27, 2014 1:28:50pm

re: #121 Gus

We don’t even have a stable democracy in New Jersey and Louisiana. Tough job trying to create a stable democracy that came from one of the most primitive states in the 21st century.

We can’t even hold off our religious extremists here and we’re supposed to do a better job in Afghanistan.

Right.

124 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:29:21pm

The other argument for creating a traditionally American POV. We should have created a puppet government in Afghanistan?

125 Kragar  May 27, 2014 1:29:45pm
126 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 1:29:46pm

re: #95 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Well, shit. What a lovely day for a malathion spill in the driveway. The spiller, who was spraying under the empty house next door so some guys could go under it and repair a joist, didn’t notice his hose had sprung a leak until Mr. w yelled at him. Mr. w started taking photos and asking what the spiller was going to do about it. Started out with ‘oh, it’s nothing’, and after a visit from the code enforcement officer, he’s now filling boxes with dirt. Mr. w took him a glass of ice water.

I read Silent Spring in 1970 or so.

127 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:29:58pm

re: #120 lawhawk

Or the Taliban destroying the cultural heritage of 2,000+ years of being at the crossroads of cultures and religion on the Silk Road; the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Those statutes and cultural artifacts were a potential revenue source for tourism, but they blew them to smithereens. In fact, it was the destruction of the Buddhas that got some people to recognize just how extreme the Taliban were.

Efforts to rebuild them are believed to be a way to get more money flowing into the region and build up a tourism industry there.

We didn’t pretend to go there for Buddha, or to build a democracy. We went to get Osama’s ass, and when that was over, we should have packed out.

128 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 1:31:02pm

Oh, this is so tiresome. Dudesis Margaret Sullivan, over at the NYT on the “Public Editor’s Journal”, thinks, I suppose, that we no longer live in a democracy, and it’s OK for one fucking person, not elected by anyone to have the final say about publication of government secrets.

And Godwald is, of course, pushing this, having tweeted out the link to it, in his attempt to smear Kinsley, who said,

“In a democracy (which, pace Greenwald, we still are), that decision must ultimately be made by the government. No doubt the government will usually be overprotective of its secrets, and so the process of decision-making — whatever it turns out to be — should openly tilt in favor of publication with minimal delay. But ultimately you can’t square this circle. Someone gets to decide, and that someone cannot be Glenn Greenwald.”

publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com

129 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:31:44pm

re: #121 Gus

We don’t even have a stable democracy in New Jersey and Louisiana. Tough job trying to create a stable democracy that came from one of the most primitive states in the 21st century.

I think the largest obstacle has been Pakistan. Afghanistan doesn’t stand a chance with them as a neighbor. Like I said, maybe it was an unsolvable problem but I wish we’d done better. But what do I know, maybe it’ll be fine.

130 bratwurst  May 27, 2014 1:31:45pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I’m not expecting perfection but something along the lines of Iraq. Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension

Here is what a bit of ethnic tension and stuff blowing up sometimes looks like over the last 24 hours or so. Give me a break.

131 goddamnedfrank  May 27, 2014 1:33:11pm

re: #119 Gus

Another thing too was that there was no surge under Bush. The surge in Afghanistan was prompted by Obama. Combat operations and boots on the ground spiked up considerably.

Even the Surge in Iraq took credit for work primarily done by the Sunni Awakening Councils.

132 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 1:33:21pm

re: #130 bratwurst

Here is what a bit of ethnic tension and stuff blowing up sometimes looks like over the last 48 hours or so. Give me a break.

Yup, it’s not perfect but it’s as much as we can hope for in that part of the world.

133 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:33:36pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

I think the largest obstacle has been Pakistan. Afghanistan doesn’t stand a chance with them as a neighbor. Like I said, maybe it was an unsolvable problem but I wish we’d done better. But what do I know, maybe it’ll be fine.

Before 9/11 Pakistan and India were almost at the brink of a nuclear war.

134 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 1:38:11pm

re: #116 Gus

Why not go back to before 9/11 and the invasion. When the Taliban controlled almost every part of Afghanistan. When they stoned and executed women, and men, on a regular basis. When the Taliban would walk the street with the hands of men who had their hand chopped off for petty larceny. When women were oppressed beyond anything seen in modern times. When all of that was going on and the USA did not even care other than the minor blip of “Charlie Wilson’s war.” That Afghanistan? This isn’t a good enough job? Seeing people with the blue dye on their fingers and flipping the bird to the Taliban and uploading pics to Twitter? From Afghanistan directly? Not good enough?

That was back when pretty much only leftists and feminists cared about Afghanistan.

135 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:40:04pm

re: #134 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That was back when pretty much only leftists and feminists cared about Afghanistan.

Yep. Mostly feminists.

136 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 1:40:44pm

Oh, fuck. Awful.

Las Vegas mother arrested for allegedly shooting 11-year-old son, police say - @KTNV
Read more on jrn.com

Photo looks like a meth head? The boy is not expected to survive. There was another adult and 2 other children in the home.

137 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 1:40:44pm

re: #127 Decatur Deb

We didn’t pretend to go there for Buddha, or to build a democracy. We went to get Osama’s ass, and when that was over, we should have packed out.

One of the saddest things is how few people in Afghanistan have any clue why we were there in the first place. Total mystery to them.

138 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:43:50pm

re: #137 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

One of the saddest things is how few people in Afghanistan have any clue why we were there in the first place. Total mystery to them.

If the Taliban had violated their own inclinations and customs, handed him over, we wouldn’t have gone.

139 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:45:20pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

If the Taliban had violated their own inclinations and customs, handed him over, we wouldn’t have gone.

That was part of Bush’s plan. I remember. They asked. Requested. Warned. Threatened. Give up or we start bombing in 3, 2, 1…

140 HappyWarrior  May 27, 2014 1:47:25pm

re: #135 Gus

Yep. Mostly feminists.

Yep and when guys like Dana Robarcher who now champion Putin loved them some Taliban.

141 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 1:49:05pm

re: #133 Gus

Before 9/11 Pakistan and India were almost at the brink of a nuclear war.

Interestingly vis-a-vis Pakistan and India, things seem to be off on a positive note between the respective PM’s.

I’ll keep my fingers crossed that they can settle whatever differences they have peacefully and amicably. Not easy matter, to be sure - but far better than the alternative.

142 HappyWarrior  May 27, 2014 1:52:23pm

re: #141 Dr Lizardo

Interestingly vis-a-vis Pakistan and India, things seem to be off on a positive note between the respective PM’s.

I’ll keep my fingers crossed that they can settle whatever differences they have peacefully and amicably. Not easy matter, to be sure - but far better than the alternative.

Really hoping for the best knowing that India elected a guy described by many outlets as a Hindu nationalist.

143 Gus  May 27, 2014 1:53:34pm
144 darthstar  May 27, 2014 1:53:57pm

re: #78 Kragar

underboob > sideboob

Not a bad place to be…

145 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 1:53:58pm

re: #141 Dr Lizardo

Interestingly vis-a-vis Pakistan and India, things seem to be off on a positive note between the respective PM’s.

I’ll keep my fingers crossed that they can settle whatever differences they have peacefully and amicably. Not easy matter, to be sure - but far better than the alternative.

WSJ video of the evening retreat ceremony at the India-Pakistan road crossing. Aggressive military posturing turned to ballet:

live.wsj.com

146 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 1:56:06pm

So been scouring the internet for a whole bunch of stats and facts as relates to this gun control issue.
So far found one site I have not seen mentioned. Wondering if this site has a reputation good or bad?

justfacts.com

More specifically

justfacts.com

147 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:01:34pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

So been scouring the internet for a whole bunch of stats and facts as relates to this gun control issue.
So far found one site I have not seen mentioned. Wondering if this site has a reputation good or bad?

justfacts.com

More specifically

justfacts.com

Look at the “About” page which convinces me it slants conservative/libertarian. They even say so.

justfacts.com

148 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 2:02:33pm

re: #133 Gus

Before 9/11 Pakistan and India were almost at the brink of a nuclear war.

and terrorist attacks in Mumbai and Kashmir. India is large and stable enough to withstand having Pakistan as a neighbor. Afghanistan, not so much.

149 Randall Gross  May 27, 2014 2:04:05pm

re: #143 Gus

[Embedded content]

The link goes to paleolibertarian turdbag’s site.

150 Gus  May 27, 2014 2:04:25pm

re: #149 Randall Gross

The link goes to paleolibertarian turdbag’s site.

Ayep.

151 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:04:25pm

So, Russia is running Crimea now, I’m assuming. If not, why didn’t Crimea make the announcement?

Russia: Parliamentary elections in Crimea will be held on 2nd Sunday of September 2014 - @BBCWillVernon
see original on twitter.com

152 Randall Gross  May 27, 2014 2:04:46pm

OT:

Just a reminder that The Will Wheaton Project starts tonight.

tvguide.com

153 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:05:33pm

re: #147 Justanotherhuman

Yeah, I saw this, and thought Lott study. Uh oh right?

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.” Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all “military service, police work, or work as a security guard.”[12]

But no it’s based on this-This is just the start, too much to clip.

Paper: “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun.” By Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995. law.northwestern.edu

So much advocacy, so little straight data

154 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:08:00pm

re: #147 Justanotherhuman

Then this

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE STUDIES CONCERNING DEFENSIVE GUN USES

DOJ study reported 83,000 annual defensive gun uses from 1987-1992. During same period, there were more than 135,000 total gun deaths and injuries in the U.S. annually.
ojp.usdoj.gov

155 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:09:24pm

You tell ‘em, Michelle.

Michelle Obama: ‘Unacceptable’ for House Republicans to consider changes to 2010 child nutrition law - @CNN
Read more on blogs.cnn.com

156 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 2:09:49pm

re: #153 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah, I saw this, and thought Lott study. Uh oh right?

But no it’s based on this-This is just the start, too much to clip.

Does that include Stand Your Ground people?

157 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:10:18pm

re: #156 Backwoods_Sleuth

I think the data is older than that.

158 b.d.  May 27, 2014 2:10:35pm

ok

AMARILLO — A beef-loving lady has set a new record after downing two 72-ounce steaks in less than 15 minutes.

wfaa.com

159 HappyWarrior  May 27, 2014 2:11:17pm

re: #158 b.d.

ok

wfaa.com

America! Heart Disease yeah!

160 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:11:43pm

re: #156 Backwoods_Sleuth

Then ya get this- At Just Facts

* A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:

• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives
• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime
• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]

from

[24] Report: “Lifetime Likelihood of Victimization.” By Herbert Koppel. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, March 1987.

161 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 2:12:23pm

re: #156 Backwoods_Sleuth

Does that include Stand Your Ground people?

OK. We’ve had Castle Doctrine here in Kentucky for a very long time and I know some of those cases are kinda hinky, especially some cases even before Castle Doctrine was codified here.

162 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 2:13:50pm

re: #145 Decatur Deb

WSJ video of the evening retreat ceremony at the India-Pakistan road crossing. Aggressive military posturing turned to ballet:

live.wsj.com

Cool.

I found this poking around on the intertubes. I went to this back in 2011; it was at the o2 Arena in Berlin. The annual Tattoo - military bands and marching. I’m not a militarist - not by any means - but I do enjoy a good show, and I have respect for soldiers, regardless of where they’re from; after all, they are human beings, just like all of us.

This is the only kind of ‘combat’ I can approve of wholeheartedly.

Youtube Video

163 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:14:19pm

re: #161 Backwoods_Sleuth

Castle doctrine? That goes back to the late 1800’s. SCOTUS “In your home, on your land and ay your place of business” if slightly paraphrased. Did state law go beyond that?

164 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:14:21pm

re: #147 Justanotherhuman

Look at the “About” page which convinces me it slants conservative/libertarian. They even say so.

justfacts.com

Two founders. Here’s one.

Jersey Conservative
An ongoing discussion about conservatism in New Jersey.
James D. Agresti (Contributor)

James Agresti | theblaze.com

About the Author

James D. Agresti is a former atheist who became a Christian after reading the Bible from cover to cover and finding objective evidence for its accuracy.

Does the Obama mandate force you to pay for abortions?

by James D. Agresti

Fri Mar 01, 2013 17:42 EST
Tags: barack obama, ella, hhs mandate, morning-after pill

WASHINGTON, D.C., March 1, 2013, (Just the Facts Daily) - In a recent National Public Radio broadcast and accompanying article entitled “Morning-After Pills Don’t Cause Abortion, Studies Say,” NPR journalist Julie Rovner reported that the Obama administration’s contraceptive mandate doesn’t force people to pay for abortion-inducing drugs. The article focuses on drugs commonly known as “morning-after” pills, which actually can be used to stop pregnancy for up to three-to-five days after unprotected sex.

Rovner’s argument consists of two major points: the first is that blocking the implantation of fertilized eggs does not constitute abortion, and the second is that morning-after pills do not block the implantation of fertilized eggs. Both of these claims are built upon half-truths and outright falsehoods that become evident through a comprehensive look at the scientific facts.

He’s a lying sob and/or a moran. I won’t bother with the other guy.

165 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:16:08pm

re: #164 wrenchwench

I’m not bothering with their conclusions. Just the facts as cited and linked to source. Looks thorough.

166 kirkspencer  May 27, 2014 2:16:40pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

So been scouring the internet for a whole bunch of stats and facts as relates to this gun control issue.
So far found one site I have not seen mentioned. Wondering if this site has a reputation good or bad?

justfacts.com

More specifically

justfacts.com

I used their Global Warming page to evaluate. I followed up with reading the taxation page. I am not impressed.

167 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:17:25pm

re: #166 kirkspencer

Fair enough.

168 danarchy  May 27, 2014 2:17:27pm

re: #158 b.d.

ok

wfaa.com

Sweet Jesus, apparently 9 pounds of steak wasn’t good enough.

“But it wasn’t just the steak— Molly Schuyler also ate the sides, including two servings of shrimp, two baked potatoes and two dinner rolls.”

169 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:17:46pm

re: #158 b.d.

ok

wfaa.com

Whoa, body abuse. She’s going to die with kidney failure if she keeps that up. That’s 9 lbs of mostly protein, not counting the shrimp. The 2 potatoes and rolls don’t begin to even it out. Gluttony, thy name is “competitive eating”.

And 363 wings in Jan? Cheeeez. I can barely eat 5 or 6.

170 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 2:17:48pm

re: #163 Rightwingconspirator

Castle doctrine? That goes back to the late 1800’s. SCOTUS “In your home, on your land and ay your place of business” if slightly paraphrased. Did state law go beyond that?

Here in Kentucky, Castle Doctrine was formally codified in 2006.

oops, forgot the PDF link
lrc.ky.gov

171 b.d.  May 27, 2014 2:18:33pm

re: #168 danarchy

Sweet Jesus, apparently 9 pounds of steak wasn’t good enough.

“But it wasn’t just the steak— Molly Schuyler also ate the sides, including two servings of shrimp, two baked potatoes and two dinner rolls.”

From the comments:

James Anthony * Top Commenter * Dallas / Fort Worth, TX

If my calculations are correct, that is 9lbs of meat.. She ate a large baby in 15 minutes so that is scary.. A bit

172 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:19:09pm

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not bothering with their conclusions. Just the facts as cited and linked to source. Looks thorough.

Looks like a pack of lies to me. I wouldn’t trust anything that man said or linked to.

173 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:19:47pm

WTF

174 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:19:53pm

re: #160 Rightwingconspirator

Surprised everyone doesn’t just leave the US, considering that bullshit.

1987? Fer cryin’ out loud.

175 kirkspencer  May 27, 2014 2:21:10pm

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not bothering with their conclusions. Just the facts as cited and linked to source. Looks thorough.

It’s thorough, and they don’t mis-cite. However, it’s selective. Taking global warming for an example, the ‘basic’ is split about 50-50 between acceptance and refutation citations. The advanced pushes that to roughly 2/3 anti. Most typically, the IPCC and other acceptance data is posted, then the site posts a range of ‘refutation’ citations. None of the latter are challenged.

176 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:22:30pm
177 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:23:19pm

re: #172 wrenchwench

Looks like a pack of lies to me. I wouldn’t trust anything that man said or linked to.

Yeah, moving on. Time consuming but I can pull from FBI/Pew/DOJ myself.

178 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:23:53pm

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not bothering with their conclusions. Just the facts as cited and linked to source. Looks thorough.

Most of their stuff about guns is based on self-assessed surveys, which is not very reliable.

179 kirkspencer  May 27, 2014 2:24:11pm

re: #175 kirkspencer

Minor correction. “none are challenged” is incorrect. There are a few refutations that are in turn rebutted. An example of this is the Watts project to show the warming is due to urban island weather stations. The fact a specific study was made and showed the impact was immaterial is noted.

This is an exception to the site’s tendencies.

180 Gus  May 27, 2014 2:25:38pm

re: #173 Pie-onist Overlord

WTF

[Embedded content]

Cue the “we must ban trucks” derp from the usual suspects.

181 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:25:55pm

re: #178 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Yeah, not looking good. This is where the cut off of research $$ hurts the discussion terribly.

182 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 2:26:30pm

re: #173 Pie-onist Overlord

WTF

[Embedded content]

Why on earth would someone steal an empty container?

183 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 2:27:02pm

re: #182 Dr Lizardo

Why on earth would someone steal an empty container?

Bodies, lots of bodies….

184 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:27:26pm

re: #175 kirkspencer

It’s thorough, and they don’t mis-cite. However, it’s selective. Taking global warming for an example, the ‘basic’ is split about 50-50 between acceptance and refutation citations. The advanced pushes that to roughly 2/3 anti. Most typically, the IPCC and other acceptance data is posted, then the site posts a range of ‘refutation’ citations. None of the latter are challenged.

Selective is almost all there is on both sides. Just finding one well linked to sources was a welcome change, if brief.

185 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:28:10pm

re: #179 kirkspencer

That site has some weird and extreme problems:

Page 2: “The estimates of lifetime likelihood of victimization are derived under the assumption that, throughout their lifetimes, people in the U.S. have incurred, and will continue to incur, criminal victimization at the same annual rates as were observed in the years 1975 through 1984.”

Crime rates in the US:

Image: ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

That is a very bad assumption to make.

186 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 2:28:39pm

re: #183 Backwoods_Sleuth

Bodies, lots of bodies….

CLEARLY, IT WAS A FEMA CONTAINER!!

187 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:28:54pm

re: #181 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah, not looking good. This is where the cut off of research $$ hurts the discussion terribly.

I’m not sure what numbers you’re trying to actually look for. If it’s “People actually defending themselves against violent assault with a gun”, that number isn’t possible to obtain.

188 klys  May 27, 2014 2:29:23pm

re: #185 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That site has some weird and extreme problems:

Crime rates in the US:

Image: ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

That is a very bad assumption to make.

I was going to put together my list of the quick questions that came up just on the cursory overview I did, but eh.

189 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:31:01pm

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not bothering with their conclusions. Just the facts as cited and linked to source. Looks thorough.

Here are the man’s own words:

Although views about when pregnancy begins vary among medical professionals, the science of embryology is clear that the genetic composition of preborn humans is formed at the point of fertilization, and as the textbook Molecular Biology explains, this genetic information is “the very basis of life itself.” It also determines gender, eye color, hair color, facial features, and it influences characteristics such as intelligence and personality. Hence, a unique human life is formed at fertilization, and Wood’s point that “half of fertilized eggs never stick around” is as relevant to the issue of abortion as the statement that “all people eventually die” is relevant to the issue of homicide. At its core, this is about the difference between actively ending a life and nature taking its course.

The guy has a fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering, yet claims to know enough to remove a woman’s human rights to bodily autonomy in deference to a fertilized egg.

Not intending any offense to you, but that man is today’s last straw for me to get really fucking mad (in case you couldn’t tell) about men telling women what they can do if they get pregnant.

190 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:31:23pm

I can’t stop watching this truck chase. It looks like the guy is heading for the border.

191 piratedan  May 27, 2014 2:31:59pm

re: #93 Justanotherhuman

well the French would know, they’ve been spying on the West for years…. ///////

192 Gus  May 27, 2014 2:33:10pm

re: #190 Pie-onist Overlord

I can’t stop watching this truck chase. It looks like the guy is heading for the border.

Smokey and the Bandit music playing in your head?

193 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:33:25pm

OMG HOW DARE YOU SNEER AT TEH GREAT GREENWALD, TEH GREATEST JOURNALIST OF ALL TIME!!!!! MY PEARLS I MUST CLUTCH THEM AS I FAINT!!!!!! TEH SNEERING!!!! OH YOU YOU AAAHHHHHH (faints!)
talkingpointsmemo.com

194 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:33:33pm

re: #187 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m not sure what numbers you’re trying to actually look for. If it’s “People actually defending themselves against violent assault with a gun”, that number isn’t possible to obtain.

Heh, the “number” is easy to find. A consensus or generally accepted number is what’s impossible to find. Not enough good data apparently. But that is maybe 1% of the numbers I seek.

This for example I would think of as an acceptable number to cite.

11,101 FATAL AND 467,300 NONFATAL FIREARM VICTIMIZATIONS OCCURRED IN 2011

WASHINGTON-Firearm-related homicides declined 39 percent and nonfatal firearm crimes declined 69 percent from 1993 to 2011, the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) announced today. Firearm-related homicides dropped from 18,253 homicides in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011, and nonfatal firearm crimes dropped from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011.

For both fatal and nonfatal firearm victimizations, the majority of the decline occurred during the 10-year period from 1993 to 2002. The number of firearm homicides declined from 1993 to 1999, rose through 2006 and then declined through 2011. Nonfatal firearm violence declined from 1993 through 2004 before fluctuating in the mid- to late 2000s.

195 klys  May 27, 2014 2:33:39pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Here are the man’s own words:

The guy has a fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering, yet claims to know enough to remove a woman’s human rights to bodily autonomy in deference to a fertilized egg.

Not intending any offense to you, but that man is today’s last straw for me to get really fucking mad (in case you couldn’t tell) about men telling women what they can do if they get pregnant.

But that’s just the facts, you know.

////

196 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:34:23pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Like I said, moving on. Not going to use that source at all.

197 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:35:02pm

Once more, in an attempt to get it out of my system.

A fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering.

No offense to any mechanical engineers who may be reading, but you better not mention my uterus where I can hear you.

198 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:35:32pm

re: #196 Rightwingconspirator

Like I said, moving on. Not going to use that source at all.

I know. I’m trying to move on.

Maybe I’ll go fix a dirty bike.

199 thedopefishlives  May 27, 2014 2:35:56pm

Afternoon Lizardim from the hot and rainy wild north country. How go things among the lizardfolk?

200 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:35:57pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

Once more, in an attempt to get it out of my system.

A fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering.

No offense to any mechanical engineers who may be reading, but you better not mention my uterus where I can hear you.

Genuinely sorry to have brought in such upsetting material. :-(

201 klys  May 27, 2014 2:36:07pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

Once more, in an attempt to get it out of my system.

A fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering.

No offense to any mechanical engineers who may be reading, but you better not mention my uterus where I can hear you.

Some engineers suffer from this delusion that because they are somewhat smart in one field, that makes them experts in all, because they are smart.

202 thedopefishlives  May 27, 2014 2:37:09pm

re: #201 klys

Some engineers suffer from this delusion that because they are somewhat smart in one field, that makes them experts in all, because they are smart.

And so was born Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (which has very few high-rise architects or structural engineers on its petition).

203 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:37:10pm

re: #194 Rightwingconspirator

Heh, the “number” is easy to find. A consensus or generally accepted number is what’s impossible to find. Not enough good data apparently. But that is maybe 1% of the numbers I seek.

No, that’s not a possible number to actually obtain. There is no credible way to arrive at that number.

This for example I would think of as an acceptable number to cite.

That number isn’t related to “”People actually defending themselves against violent assault with a gun”.

Broad-based victim stats are also useless for any individual assessment. The likelihood of a young black male in Oakland being murdered with a handgun is an order of magnitude higher than a young white male in Marin County.

Most people are not at high risk of violent victimization, and most of the risk comes from loved ones, where having a gun would be of extremely dubious value.

People, unfortunately, have a completely skewed perception of crime rates in this country, and their own risk of victimization. It’s the duty of anyone who knows the truth to spread that, and to dissuade people who are buying a gun for ‘self defense’ even though they live in a very safe area.

204 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 2:39:20pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

Once more, in an attempt to get it out of my system.

A fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering.

No offense to any mechanical engineers who may be reading, but you better not mention my uterus where I can hear you.

Mechanical engineer working within his field:

gendertree.com

205 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:39:35pm

re: #187 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

. If it’s “People actually defending themselves against violent assault with a gun”, that number isn’t possible to obtain.

Right the only number one might get would be sifting some great number of Police reports. Even that would under report. It would be a good number to have of course but it is what it is.

206 Gus  May 27, 2014 2:39:38pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

Once more, in an attempt to get it out of my system.

A fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering.

No offense to any mechanical engineers who may be reading, but you better not mention my uterus where I can hear you.

Not unlike people with journalism degrees

207 klys  May 27, 2014 2:39:53pm

re: #202 thedopefishlives

And so was born Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (which has very few high-rise architects or structural engineers on its petition).

One of the things I learned from my dad is that being smart just means you can learn things more readily if you do the indepth research required for actual understanding.

One of the things I learned from my Ph.D. advisor is that no matter how smart, you need to play devil’s advocate in your head about something ALL THE TIME, because we are all prone to confirmation bias.

208 A Mom Anon  May 27, 2014 2:39:53pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

If we weren’t both already married, I’d totally propose to you right now, lol. Or if I lived closer, I’d bake you some cupcakes. Something.

209 klys  May 27, 2014 2:40:32pm

re: #208 A Mom Anon

If we weren’t both already married, I’d totally propose to you right now, lol. Or if I lived closer, I’d bake you some cupcakes. Something.

We are the Platonic Sisterhood of the Travelling Lizard.

Or something.

210 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:41:42pm

re: #203 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, that’s not a possible number to actually obtain. There is no credible way to arrive at that number.

I was trying to be lighthearted, as in you can get lots of numbers (Lotts?) just can’t get good reliable numbers.

The absence of that number is a great disadvantage to fair discussion about self defense and guns.

211 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:42:52pm

re: #205 Rightwingconspirator

Right the only number one might get would be sifting some great number of Police reports. Even that would under report. It would be a good number to have of course but it is what it is.

That might over-report, too. There’s no reason to assume under-reporting.

212 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 2:43:04pm

re: #201 klys

Some engineers suffer from this delusion that because they are somewhat smart in one field, that makes them experts in all, because they are smart.

i promise to make no observations on organs of the body unless they have usb ports

213 Gus  May 27, 2014 2:43:11pm
214 klys  May 27, 2014 2:43:47pm

re: #212 dog philosopher

i promise to make no observations on organs of the body unless they have usb ports

Maybe you can explain then why I inevitably have to try three times to insert a USB stick when there are only two sides.

215 darthstar  May 27, 2014 2:44:05pm
216 Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2014 2:44:15pm

re: #192 Gus

Smokey and the Bandit music playing in your head?

See what you made me do?!

Youtube Video

217 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:44:45pm

re: #210 Rightwingconspirator

I was trying to be lighthearted, as in you can get lots of numbers (Lotts?) just can’t get good reliable numbers.

The absence of that number is a great disadvantage to fair discussion about self defense and guns.

Not really. It isn’t a necessary number, as I said. National numbers have no relevance to individual situations, and once you drilled down to the level of the actual situation—where the person lived and worked—the data would be too shallow anyway.

What we do have is relatively solid numbers on violent crimes. Most people, unfortunately, are wildly misinformed about this, so we get a lot of people buying guns for ‘self defense’ based on a very incorrect assumption about their risk. It’s too bad, and people who are experts on guns should be doing what they can to educate these people about their actual risks.

218 Decatur Deb  May 27, 2014 2:45:18pm

re: #214 klys

Maybe you can explain then why I inevitably have to try three times to insert a USB stick when there are only two sides.

They like a bit of foreplay.

219 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 2:45:22pm

re: #214 klys

Maybe you can explain then why I inevitably have to try three times to insert a USB stick when there are only two sides.

demonic possession, of course

220 calochortus  May 27, 2014 2:45:38pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Here are the man’s own words:

The guy has a fucking BS in fucking Mechanical Engineering, yet claims to know enough to remove a woman’s human rights to bodily autonomy in deference to a fertilized egg.

Not intending any offense to you, but that man is today’s last straw for me to get really fucking mad (in case you couldn’t tell) about men telling women what they can do if they get pregnant.

Gee, I’m a genetically unique individual myself. May I tap into this idiot’s blood supply? Borrow a kidney? I thought not.
Oh wait. Only women have to put up with this.

221 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:46:20pm

The guy got out of the truck and he ran into a convenience store.

222 thedopefishlives  May 27, 2014 2:46:42pm

re: #221 Pie-onist Overlord

The guy got out of the truck and he ran into a convenience store.

Wait, wtf is going on now?

223 klys  May 27, 2014 2:48:24pm

re: #217 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

We’ve had our house broken into, twice. Both times while we were out of town, both times probably local kids (the PS3 was stolen twice (got it back once!) and I lost a laptop).

After the second one (coming home from my grandfather’s funeral), my response was to demand something. A security system.

There’s also pepper spray, and I have the remote to trigger the security system in the office (where I spend most of the time when I’m home by myself).

Even after installation and monitoring costs for three years, we’re still probably only talking about the cost of one handgun …not to mention the safe, range time to be comfortable using it and maintaining those skills - for both of us - and if I have to fumble for it in the safe while someone is breaking in, plus then the years of therapy afterwards …no, I’m pretty happy with my security system. I know the police will show (thanks, cleaning ladies!).

224 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:49:06pm

re: #203 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Please keep in mind I’m after a bunch of numbers. At this time I’m not relating any. When I have gathered enough data that would be appropriate in the discussion, I’ll be happy to address the self defense motivation with you and what we each might like to see. Cool?

225 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 2:49:07pm

re: #221 Pie-onist Overlord

The guy got out of the truck and he ran into a convenience store.

he saw the “escape-from-police-pursuit-2-for-one-special” sign

226 Kragar  May 27, 2014 2:49:49pm

re: #221 Pie-onist Overlord

The guy got out of the truck and he ran into a convenience store.

They’ll never find him in there!

227 klys  May 27, 2014 2:49:59pm

re: #223 klys

Also, a gun would not remind us that we forgot to close the bathroom window again, and would not defend the house against robbery theft if we had it mostly closed but not locked.

*Edited because terms.

228 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:51:29pm

The driver has been apprehended.

229 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:51:35pm

re: #224 Rightwingconspirator

Please keep in mind I’m after a bunch of numbers. At this time I’m not relating any. When I have gathered enough data that would be appropriate in the discussion, I’ll be happy to address the self defense motivation with you and what we each might like to see. Cool?

Well, we already have enough data for most of the conversation: We have county-level crime data, often neighborhood level. It is not hard to assess someone’s risk of violent assault in the home. Most people actually live in very safe areas, and are not at high risk of victimization.

I’m really unsure what number it is you’re looking for, and again, if you’re looking for “Used a gun in defense against a violent crime”, that number is not something that will ever be obtainable.

230 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 2:52:06pm

re: #227 klys

Also, a gun would not remind us that we forgot to close the bathroom window again, and would not defend the house against robbery theft if we had it mostly closed but not locked.

*Edited because terms.

Guns get stolen a lot; houses with guns often get targeted because they’re high-value items to sell.

231 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 2:52:28pm
232 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 2:54:01pm

re: #200 Rightwingconspirator

Genuinely sorry to have brought in such upsetting material. :-(

I appreciate that.

Of course there’s other stuff going on that exacerbates it. Ordinarily I’d close the tab and be done with it.

233 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 2:54:43pm

Cat break.

Image: cat-shark.jpg

re: #215 darthstar

[Embedded content]

And Micah Lee doesn’t give a damn about how he gets to the front of the queue. Because fuck you, it’s me and we elites don’t have to wait like the peons.

“Once hired, Lee needed to travel to Brazil immediately. First Look has an office in New York City, but Greenwald works from his house located in the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro.

“Unfortunately, the consulate in San Francisco near where Lee lives didn’t have an open spot for a visa appointment. It would be at least two months before he’d be able to leave for Brazil.

“Undeterred, Lee created a smart (and legal) hack — a script that constantly scraped the consulate’s visa calendar to check for cancellations. If it found any, it would text Lee, giving him the opportunity to hop online and book.

“In less than 48 hours, he scored an appointment and flew to Rio within days.”

234 klys  May 27, 2014 2:55:32pm

re: #230 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Guns get stolen a lot; houses with guns often get targeted because they’re high-value items to sell.

I confess, I have lost track of how many PS3s we have owned.

The one the cops got back eventually went to PS3 heaven due to damage sustained in the theft.

I will never buy a slot-loading entertainment device again ever. Those things were a PAIN IN THE ASS to disassemble when a disc got stuck, plus you needed the special security screw head.

235 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 2:58:17pm

re: #217 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Not really. It isn’t a necessary number, as I said. National numbers have no relevance to individual situations, and once you drilled down to the level of the actual situation—where the person lived and worked—the data would be too shallow anyway.

What we do have is relatively solid numbers on violent crimes. Most people, unfortunately, are wildly misinformed about this, so we get a lot of people buying guns for ‘self defense’ based on a very incorrect assumption about their risk. It’s too bad, and people who are experts on guns should be doing what they can to educate these people about their actual risks.

That looks to me like a matter of resolution. Gated communities (I suppose) have very different violence numbers than gang stressed poor communities. When the DOJ says x percent of us will be a victim of a violent crime, that gets noticed.

i’m going to disagree with you about the utility of the number we (sadly) won’t have. It may or may not be necessary to having the discussion, but I miss it, as in it’s perspective. A big vague national number of course would not be nearly as good as high resolution numbers broken down to demographic and zip codes. Those who regularly carry valuables or cash probably are at more risk.

But this is moot. The decision how high a risk is high enough to have the gun, the quick safe, the training, the practice-is terribly circumstantial and subject to all kinds of factors.

Of course we already agree (dare I suggest?) that those who buy just for self defense and do not well evaluate the risk and / or fail to train, store, and practice are a big problem. They need to be prevented or corrected. Saw a lot of that after the civil unrest here in L.A.

236 klys  May 27, 2014 3:00:41pm

re: #235 Rightwingconspirator

As I recall, after my grandmother passed away, my dad found a loaded pistol (of some sort) in the nightstand drawer.

She lived in a gated community.

I might contend that you are, unfortunately, the minority when it comes to discussing gun owners.

237 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:03:48pm

re: #235 Rightwingconspirator

That looks to me like a matter of resolution. Gated communities (I suppose) have very different violence numbers than gang stressed poor communities. When the DOJ says x percent of us will be a victim of a violent crime, that gets noticed.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘that gets noticed’. If you mean that people read that and misapply it, that’s true.

i’m going to disagree with you about the utility of the number we (sadly) won’t have. It may or may not be necessary to having the discussion, but I miss it, as in it’s perspective. A big vague national number of course would not be nearly as good as high resolution numbers broken down to demographic and zip codes. Those who regularly carry valuables or cash probably are at more risk.

Why don’t you think that actual risk of crime on the granular town and neighborhood level is enough?

But this is moot. The decision how high a risk is high enough to have the gun, the quick safe, the training, the practice-is terribly circumstantial and subject to all kinds of factors.

It’s not terribly circumstantial for most people, no. Why do you think it is?

Of course we already agree (dare I suggest?) that those who buy just for self defense and do not well evaluate the risk and / or fail to train, store, and practice are a big problem. They need to be prevented or corrected. Saw a lot of that after the civil unrest here in L.A.

Very few people who buy for self-defense actually evaluate the risk well, which is demonstrable by the incredibly high rate of confusion about risk of victimization—and most especially, risk of victimization from strangers.

I’m glad that you now see the importance of preventing these people from getting guns, but this is a new thing on your part.

238 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 3:05:05pm

re: #236 klys

As I recall, after my grandmother passed away, my dad found a loaded pistol (of some sort) in the nightstand drawer.

She lived in a gated community.

I might content that you are, unfortunately, the minority when it comes to discussing gun owners.

One reason I’m in the minority is I trained up through instructor certification level. That’s a lot of hours, classes, sessions at the range, years of instructing then finally the credential to certify new instructors. I’m the old Not Bold pilot so to speak. I’m one of the guys hammering lessons home to new and active shooters.

Another reason is my beloved and I both do the sporting and tactical side. Our lives depend on the shooters around us not making any fatal fire mistakes. Nothing like having your wife involved to sharpen your sense of care and caution.

239 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:05:28pm

I’m not good with snap decisions about actions-which may actually be a safety mechanism. You will not find me trying to exit the freeway from the wrong lane at the last minute-and I have no confidence that I would be a good candidate for defending myself with a gun in a suddenly dangerous situation.
Fortunately, I live in a pretty safe neighborhood and am undoubtedly safer without a gun around.

240 GlutenFreeJesus  May 27, 2014 3:06:33pm

re: #90 Gus

It’s also rather absurd to think we’ll ever reach that perfect place in Afghanistan. You know. Afghanistan. Remember? Might take another 500 years… Carry on.

We will when we achieve warp capability when the Vulcans fly through our system and take notice.

241 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:07:13pm

re: #239 calochortus

I’m not good with snap decisions about actions-which may actually be a safety mechanism. You will not find me trying to exit the freeway from the wrong lane at the last minute-and I have no confidence that I would be a good candidate for defending myself with a gun in a suddenly dangerous situation.
Fortunately, I live in a pretty safe neighborhood and am undoubtedly safer without a gun around.

One of the problems is a Catch-22: You need some expertise in guns and in tactical situations to accurately self-assess whether you’re competent to use a gun for self-defense. It doesn’t help that the government of many states tells people they’re competent to have a CCW based on silly shit like passing a hunting safety course, as Florida does.

242 klys  May 27, 2014 3:09:42pm

re: #238 Rightwingconspirator

One reason I’m in the minority is I trained up through instructor certification level. That’s a lot of hours, classes, sessions at the range, years of instructing then finally the credential to certify new instructors. I’m the old Not Bold pilot so to speak. I’m one of the guys hammering lessons home to new and active shooters.

Another reason is my beloved and I both do the sporting and tactical side. Our lives depend on the shooters around us not making any fatal fire mistakes. Nothing like having your wife involved to sharpen your sense of care and caution.

Right, but on the flip side:

My grandfather was military. Near as we can tell, the pistol was his.

They got the pistol because they were scared. No hunting. No sport shooting. Scared of home invasion, of tyranny, of whatever it is you end up scared of when you listen to Fox News 24/7.

On the other side, my other grandfather hunts. Those rifles stay in the cabinet unless he is hunting. I don’t think I’ve ever seen them out (we’re typically not up there in hunting season). I have shot BBs up there under close supervision with my uncles. One of my cousins got seriously chewed out for fooling around with an unloaded rifle.

I have seen both sides of this coin. I choose not to own a firearm, and I am cognizant that there are people out there who treat them well. But I am also cognizant that there are a lot of people out there who shouldn’t have them that do, and I would have included my grandparents in that category.

243 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 3:09:56pm

re: #237 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s not terribly circumstantial for most people, no. Why do you think it is?

Take at risk people. Like a guy that carries valuables all the time. His crime risk is higher. He might be single living alone, a co worker with his same job might have a home full of children.
Same risk of violent robbery, dissimilar risks of having a gun at home.

I’m glad that you now see the importance of preventing these people from getting guns, but this is a new thing on your part.

I think I understand how you came to that unfortunately erroneous conclusion about me. These things happen.

244 Lidane  May 27, 2014 3:10:46pm

As usual, The Onion gets it right:

245 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:10:46pm

re: #241 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Yep, I also have no interest in guns and staying current with target practice and the like would be a serious chore for me. Seriously, I’d rather go to the dentist or something.

246 Mattand  May 27, 2014 3:12:20pm

OT rant/complaint:

Just read a comment at the Pharyngula blog where someone described the US as a “soft police state, not a dictatorship.”

I hate to go MBF and risk conjuring up her acolytes, but Jesus Fucking Christ: explain to me how that’s not as stupid as some of the shit you see at Free Republic?

247 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:12:51pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

Take at risk people. Like a guy that carries valuables all the time.

Okay. Those are corner cases: I’m talking about the average person buying a gun for home defense. I have no issues with someone who carries valuables all the time getting a gun for self defense (as long as he trains a lot), nor ever have.

I’m talking about ordinary people.

I think I understand how you came to that unfortunately erroneous conclusion about me. These things happen.

I didn’t. You previously have objected strenuously when I have advocated that gun enthusiasts discourage people from owning guns who are buying them for ‘self defense’ if that person doesn’t actually have a high risk of victimization.

248 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:13:38pm

re: #245 calochortus

Yep, I also have no interest in guns and staying current with target practice and the like would be a serious chore for me. Seriously, I’d rather go to the dentist or something.

Another piece of data we’ll never actually get is how many people actually store their guns safely at home, don’t get drunk while having easy access to their guns, etc.

249 Kragar  May 27, 2014 3:16:15pm
250 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 3:18:50pm

re: #249 Kragar

Bored GOP Vetting Rand Paul Just To Kill Time Before Viable 2016 Candidate Emerges

i thought gop candidates were considered viable at conception

251 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:19:15pm

Update: Spokeswoman says Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder will sign $9.25 minimum wage law within a few hours - @AP
Read more on detroitnews.com

252 klys  May 27, 2014 3:19:25pm

re: #250 dog philosopher

i thought gop candidates were considered viable at conception

But not after birth!

253 Feline Fearless Leader  May 27, 2014 3:19:34pm

Good evening Lizards. Overcast, muggy and relatively hot (87F) afternoon has converted over into rain.

254 A Mom Anon  May 27, 2014 3:20:09pm

re: #236 klys

Also, the number one would be looking for, if it were to be found, would be “Number of SUCCESSFUL attempts at home defense with a firearm”, yes? (or words to that effect, it’s a bit awkward- I’ve had a long day)

Since there are few if any requirements anymore to get training before buying and amassing weapons and ammo, let alone one gun, I’m going out on a limb and saying it COULD be likely that a rather large number of gun owners are not going to be good with a gun in an emergency. Not that training guarantees that, but it could help. I don’t understand what the problem is with, at a minimum, having similar requirements to licensing and owning a car or motorcycle. Similar database, similar level(plus a bit more) proficiency testing, similar insurance requirements- for accidents. One can have restrictions on a license for physical disabilities, why not mental health restrictions on firearms? Then, if a cop gets a call to an address, they might get some idea of whether or not the residents are armed and with what type of gun, if there are mental health issues, etc. And maybe we could actually invest in mental health professionals that work with the police in these situations, they could be LEOs that are also trained in mental health issues. If we’re going to ever (and lordy I am not holding my breath) get serious about this issue, we need to think outside the box. What we’re doing now isn’t working at all, and each one of these shootings is a smack with the clue by four that’s being ignored.

255 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 3:20:53pm

re: #239 calochortus

When I teach self defense I teach via a triangle of things to apply. Gun or not, martial arts or not, nice area or not, we start with this-Awareness. That’s your aptitudes, and a willingness to be aware of your circumstances day in day out. Intelligence. Bring your brain to the task at all times. Learn, read, write speak aloud, whatever makes the right actions and lessons stick with you when adrenaline hits. Then Training.

256 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 3:20:59pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Among other things that this meathead does, he fails philosophy 101.

Reasoning from what something is (i.e., a fertilized egg having a unique genetic code) to what something allegedly ought to be (i.e., the woman having no rights) is difficult (some would argue inherently impossible. This clown doesn’t even show his work.

257 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:23:16pm

re: #255 Rightwingconspirator

When I teach self defense I teach via a triangle of things to apply. Gun or not, martial arts or not, nice area or not, we start with this-Awareness. That’s your aptitudes, and a willingness to be aware of your circumstances day in day out. Intelligence. Bring your brain to the task at all times. Learn, read, write speak aloud, whatever makes the right actions and lessons stick with you when adrenaline hits. Then Training.

Apparently a self-confident, alert attitude is one of the best ways to avoid being a target. I hope so, ‘cause it’s all I got!

258 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 3:23:47pm

re: #246 Mattand

OT rant/complaint:

Just read a comment at the Pharyngula blog where someone described the US as a “soft police state, not a dictatorship.”

I hate to go MBF and risk conjuring up her acolytes, but Jesus Fucking Christ: explain to me how that’s not as stupid as some of the shit you see at Free Republic?

It’s another case of ‘smart in one area does not equal smart in another area’.

Demonstrating that is actually a dudebro specialty.

259 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 3:24:09pm

re: #247 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I didn’t. You previously have objected strenuously when I have advocated that gun enthusiasts discourage people from owning guns who are buying them for ‘self defense’ if that person doesn’t actually have a high risk of victimization.

Since we never came to an understanding about where numerically or by circumstance the risk is high enough, nor a process to figure that out, nor a process to exclude those that have guns already for other reasons like sport or hunting, you overstate my position in the negative. If you had attended my class you might have a different perspective.Never mind the details of how I teach defensive firearms are unimportant beyond my range bay.

260 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:24:14pm

re: #256 EPR-radar

Among other things that this meathead does, he fails philosophy 101.

Reasoning from what something is (i.e., a fertilized egg having a unique genetic code) to what something allegedly ought to be (i.e., the woman having no rights) is difficult (some would argue inherently impossible. This clown doesn’t even show his work.

There is no coherent work to show.

261 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:26:16pm

The Legend-in-his-own-mind speaks.

Edward Snowden rejects Obama administration claims that he was a low-level hacker - @NBCNews
Read more on nbcnews.com

“In the interview, Snowden described himself as a technical expert who has worked for the United States at high levels, including as a lecturer in a counterintelligence academy for the Defense Intelligence Agency and undercover for the CIA and NSA. The Defense Intelligence Agency confirmed to NBC News that Snowden, as a contractor, had spoken at three of their conferences. Two intelligence sources tell NBC that Snowden worked for the CIA at an overseas station in IT and communications.”

Wow, way to puff up your resume to reflect your fantastic thinking.

Expert! Lecturer! Undercover agent! Riiiight.

262 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:30:05pm

re: #259 Rightwingconspirator

Since we never came to an understanding about where numerically or by circumstance the risk is high enough, nor a process to figure that out, nor a process to exclude those that have guns already for other reasons like sport or hunting, you overstate my position in the negative. If you had attended my class you might have a different perspective.Never mind the details of how I teach defensive firearms are unimportant beyond my range bay.

I’m sorry, I can’t really make head or tail of this. The easy way to figure out if your risk is high enough is by looking at the risk of violent attack where you live. You haven’t come up with any reason why this isn’t sufficient for the average person.

People who have guns for sport should be keeping them at the range, not at home, and people keeping them for hunting should have them very securely locked up or not in the house, so those don’t really apply to what we’re talking about.

263 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:31:27pm

NBC/MSNBC will never get my eyes again.

Edward Snowden is nothing more than a traitor to the US.

Deal? I don’t think so.

264 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 3:32:55pm

re: #260 calochortus

There is no coherent work to show.

Naturally. Category errors are like that. Mr. Meathead probably thinks it is some kind of super-genius argument, when all he is doing is outing himself as an idiot.

265 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 3:33:29pm

re: #261 Justanotherhuman

The Legend-in-his-own-mind speaks.

Edward Snowden rejects Obama administration claims that he was a low-level hacker - @NBCNews
Read more on nbcnews.com

“In the interview, Snowden described himself as a technical expert who has worked for the United States at high levels, including as a lecturer in a counterintelligence academy for the Defense Intelligence Agency and undercover for the CIA and NSA. The Defense Intelligence Agency confirmed to NBC News that Snowden, as a contractor, had spoken at three of their conferences. Two intelligence sources tell NBC that Snowden worked for the CIA at an overseas station in IT and communications.”

Wow, way to puff up your resume to reflect your fantastic thinking.

Expert! Lecturer! Undercover agent! Riiiight.

I think Obama handed Mr. Smart Guy a shovel, and he started digging.

266 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:34:01pm

New charges filed for Jewish center shooting suspect

kctv5.com

OVERLAND PARK, KS (KCTV) -

“A white supremacist accused of killing three people at two Jewish centers in Johnson County now faces new charges in connection with the April shootings.

“Frazier Glenn Cross Jr., who also goes by Glenn Miller, 73, was charged Tuesday with trying to kill three other people during the shooting spree. The new charges are three counts of attempted murder, one count of aggravated assault and one count of shooting a firearm into a building.

“Cross is scheduled to appear in court Thursday morning.” More

267 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:34:46pm

re: #264 EPR-radar

It’s like the old suggestion of replacing a page of dubious mathematical calculations with the word “obviously” so they won’t be questioned.

268 b.d.  May 27, 2014 3:35:16pm

re: #263 Justanotherhuman

NBC/MSNBC will never get my eyes again.

Edward Snowden is nothing more than a traitor to the US.

Deal? I don’t think so.

Why the hell would Snowden want a deal? I thought he didn’t want to live in a country that did stuff that the USA does?

269 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:35:41pm

re: #265 wrenchwench

I think Obama handed Mr. Smart Guy a shovel, and he started digging.

Snowden isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer. Just the smuggest.

Heh. ETA: Of course, I meant “sharpest”. Typing too fast, not proofing enough.

270 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 3:36:12pm

re: #267 calochortus

It’s like the old suggestion of replacing a page of dubious mathematical calculations with the word “obviously” so they won’t be questioned.

“intuitively obvious to the most casual reader” if an especially dodgy point needs to be finessed.

271 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:36:21pm

re: #268 b.d.

Why the hell would Snowden want a deal? I thought he didn’t want to live in a country that did stuff that the USA does?

He doesn’t want a stint in Club Fed. As if.

272 b.d.  May 27, 2014 3:36:52pm

Snowden is the smartest guy “stuck” in Moscow.

Sorry but smart people don’t use Julian Assange as a travel agent.

273 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:38:16pm

re: #272 b.d.

Snowden is the smartest guy “stuck” in Moscow.

Sorry but smart people don’t use Julian Assange as a travel agent.

Or a non-lawyer like Sarah Harrison of Wikileaks giving them legal advice.

274 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 3:40:55pm

re: #262 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m sorry, I can’t really make head or tail of this. The easy way to figure out if your risk is high enough is by looking at the risk of violent attack where you live. You haven’t come up with any reason why this isn’t sufficient for the average person.

I’m not prepared to get further into that right now. I’m hunting some facts and we would need to define some things like what constitutes a risk so low one must not get a gun. Or really should consider one. Even if we define these differently.

People who have guns for sport should be keeping them at the range, not at home, and people keeping them for hunting should have them very securely locked up or not in the house, so those don’t really apply to what we’re talking about.

I don’t agree once one has solid proper storage at home. The further from the city we are talking about the less practical this becomes as well. So we depart ways early on here. I will insist on including those people as a legitimate part of the picture.

You might not like this, take it as my considered opinion-There are two ways to correct the self defense only low risk person. (I assume proper storage etc.) Your suggestion-Convince them to get rid of the gun. Another approach is make good sports shooters of them via fun times at the range. Then we have well stored guns that have two purposes.

So we see this differently. Which of course is to be expected from time to time.

275 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 3:44:15pm

re: #272 b.d.

Snowden is the smartest guy “stuck” in Moscow.

Sorry but smart people don’t use Julian Assange as a travel agent.

Assange does, and he is smart. I heard he is somewhere in Ecuador right now.

/

276 Skip Intro  May 27, 2014 3:46:32pm

re: #214 klys

Maybe you can explain then why I inevitably have to try three times to insert a USB stick when there are only two sides.

Just be happy you’re too young to have ever had to use S-video cables.

277 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:47:31pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov

Assange does, and he is smart. I heard he is somewhere in Ecuador right now.

/

Gawd, I’m so tired of pretentious twats like these dudebros.

278 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 27, 2014 3:50:20pm

re: #274 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not prepared to get further into that right now. I’m hunting some facts and we would need to define some things like what constitutes a risk so low one must not get a gun. Or really should consider one. Even if we define these differently.

For most people, the risk of violent assault in the home is very, very low. One easy thing to compare it against would be against the risk of an accident with the gun, the gun being stolen, the gun being used against them, etc. This would be the most generous possible interpretation.

I don’t agree once one has solid proper storage at home. The further from the city we are talking about the less practical this becomes as well. So we depart ways early on here. I will insist on including those people as a legitimate part of the picture.

First of all, you can’t assume proper storage, and second of all, if the person has the gun for ‘sport’, then there is no purpose to having the gun at their home. Likewise, for hunting. I’m not sure what you mean by insisting; if we’re talking about who should have guns at home, then someone who just uses their gun to plink at the range is a pretty obvious example of someone who shouldn’t.

You might not like this, take it as my considered opinion-There are two ways to correct the self defense only low risk person. (I assume proper storage etc.) Your suggestion-Convince them to get rid of the gun. Another approach is make good sports shooters of them via fun times at the range. Then we have well stored guns that have two purposes.

Again, you can’t assume that they’ll store the guns well, and that you use a gun for sport isn’t any more reason to keep the gun at home. Furthermore, if for whatever bizarre reason you can’t keep the gun at the range, keeping it truly secure would mean that it wouldn’t be very accessible, curtailing its use for home defense.

I’m kind of wondering if you’re joking at this point, the idea that the solution to someone who doesn’t really need a gun for self defense being to get them really into sport shooting. That doesn’t address the issue in the least.

279 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 3:50:56pm

I wonder if this is familicide.

4 Found Dead In Mission Viejo Home; ‘No Outstanding Suspects’ Sought

losangeles.cbslocal.com

280 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 3:52:16pm

re: #246 Mattand

OT rant/complaint:

Just read a comment at the Pharyngula blog where someone described the US as a “soft police state, not a dictatorship.”

I hate to go MBF and risk conjuring up her acolytes, but Jesus Fucking Christ: explain to me how that’s not as stupid as some of the shit you see at Free Republic?

There’s plenty of stupid to go around.

281 calochortus  May 27, 2014 3:53:16pm

BBL

282 klys  May 27, 2014 3:55:39pm

re: #269 Justanotherhuman

Snowden isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer. Just the smuggest.

Heh. ETA: Of course, I meant “sharpest”. Typing too fast, not proofing enough.

No, no, your original comment was perfect as-is.

283 Gus  May 27, 2014 3:58:48pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov

Assange does, and he is smart. I heard he is somewhere in Ecuador right now.

/

Greenwald is a “journalist,” Snowden is a “spy,” and Assange is somewhere in “Ecuador.”

284 klys  May 27, 2014 3:59:21pm

re: #283 Gus

Greenwald is a “journalist,” Snowden is a “spy,” and Assange is somewhere in “Ecuador.”

If we play the game like this, can I be a “billionaire”?

285 Gus  May 27, 2014 4:01:02pm

re: #284 klys

If we play the game like this, can I be a “billionaire”?

Yep. Or you can be an inbillionaire. That is, an involuntary billionaire. There’s no known cure.

286 b.d.  May 27, 2014 4:02:57pm

re: #283 Gus

Greenwald is a “journalist,” Snowden is a “spy,” and Assange is somewhere in “Ecuador.”

ha!

287 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:03:08pm

re: #285 Gus

Yep. Or you can be an inbillionaire. That is, an involuntary billionaire. There’s no known cure.

Sort of a Croesus effect, like, you crap $$$?

288 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 4:03:58pm

re: #238 Rightwingconspirator

One reason I’m in the minority is I trained up through instructor certification level. That’s a lot of hours, classes, sessions at the range, years of instructing then finally the credential to certify new instructors. I’m the old Not Bold pilot so to speak. I’m one of the guys hammering lessons home to new and active shooters.

Another reason is my beloved and I both do the sporting and tactical side. Our lives depend on the shooters around us not making any fatal fire mistakes. Nothing like having your wife involved to sharpen your sense of care and caution.

See, here’s the thing. You just said it. You and wife are committed to training and keeping your skills.
Sadly, most gunowners today are not that responsible.

289 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 4:06:14pm

OMFG.

Edward Snowden tells @NBCNews he was ‘trained as a spy’ and ‘lived and worked undercover overseas’
Read more on nbcnews.com

Who trained him, Russia?

290 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 4:07:18pm

re: #241 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

One of the problems is a Catch-22: You need some expertise in guns and in tactical situations to accurately self-assess whether you’re competent to use a gun for self-defense. It doesn’t help that the government of many states tells people they’re competent to have a CCW based on silly shit like passing a hunting safety course, as Florida does.

There is another fix.

re: #278 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay going to hope to avoid much repetition or quibbling over terms. By assuming I mean stipulated. As soon as a person is not storing properly etc., they go on my list of people that must fix that problem or give up the gun. If I can not stipulate to circumstance like that I really can’t respond at all.

No not joking, been there, doing that-the sporting side is a valid way to teach & insist on the safe ways to store at home, handle, clean and shoot safely. The advantage of an enjoyable target sport is the repetition of using good habits and being exposed to the safety rules. Practice pays. If one is an ardent critic of guns, that is obviously not really a welcome solution.

There is a long established national CCW based sport. The facilities and clubs provide the chance to just watch. If it looks good, thorough training is made available to enter the sport safely as a new trained novice. Maybe you do this sport for a while before you decide about CCW or having a gun at home. Maybe you just like the sport and skip it at home. Maybe it’s all too much and you walk away. That’s fine too. It happens.

The sport is so good at increasing skills in a safe environment it draws many law officers and even off duty military. It’s called IDPA. It was founded by and for civilians to gain practical gun skills in a sporting competitive way.

It all depends on your mindset about guns in general and your own personal circumstances.

I understand many won’t like this answer. Like it or not it’s a valid and common way to have guns and reduce accidents among gun owners. Proper storage is the responsible and legal way to have a gun or more at home.

I just do not agree the only way to go is not have them at home at all short of high risk individuals.

291 wrenchwench  May 27, 2014 4:07:19pm

re: #289 Justanotherhuman

OMFG.

Edward Snowden tells @NBCNews he was ‘trained as a spy’ and ‘lived and worked undercover overseas’
Read more on nbcnews.com

Who trained him, Russia?

Does Hawaii count as ‘overseas’ now?

292 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:07:55pm

re: #272 b.d.

Snowden is the smartest guy “stuck” in Moscow.

Sorry but smart people don’t use Julian Assange as a travel agent.

Snowden is a genius just like Ben Carson, except without the brain surgery skills.

293 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:08:25pm

re: #292 Pie-onist Overlord

BAM!

294 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:10:26pm

re: #289 Justanotherhuman

OMFG.

Edward Snowden tells @NBCNews he was ‘trained as a spy’ and ‘lived and worked undercover overseas’
Read more on nbcnews.com

Who trained him, Russia?

The Internet trained him.

295 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 4:11:12pm

re: #291 wrenchwench

Does Hawaii count as ‘overseas’ now?

He worked in Japan and Hawaii for Dell as a contract sysadm; ostensibly for the State Dept in Switzerland as a non-essential employer, e.g., a clerical or security guard position. That has been his work history, from his own mouth, until now, until he decided to give interviews from Russia.

296 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:11:31pm

Snowden’s spy training was conducted in Paris. He was forced to eat 2 kg of Roquefort with only one bottle of merely the 2nd best French wine. It was torture. He’s as good as Bond now.

297 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 4:11:54pm

re: #288 Backwoods_Sleuth

See, here’s the thing. You just said it. You and wife are committed to training and keeping your skills.
Sadly, most gunowners today are not that responsible.

Can’t speak for anyone but where I go and what I see, and that is of course anecdotal. We certainly have a loud bunch of assholes that give that bad impression. And they are either louder or more numerous or both than in the past.

Thing is you just won’t often hear about the guys that play responsibly. They just are not the internet warrior type, nor the kind to make the news with the gun in some incident or accident. So we just do what we do, with our own and with our critics.

298 klys  May 27, 2014 4:13:04pm
[16:11] klys: if there is still bean salad when you get home
[16:11] klys: it is a statement of my love for you
[16:11] husband: I am looking forward to your statement of love for me
[16:11] klys: THERE WAS AN IF THERE

Marriage communication in the 21st century.

(OK, seriously this salad is really good and because I like you all I posted a recipe last night.)

299 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:13:13pm

re: #294 Pie-onist Overlord

The Internet trained him.

You mean, he’s like a digital Mowgli?

300 klys  May 27, 2014 4:14:07pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Can’t speak for anyone but where I go and what I see, and that is of course anecdotal. We certainly have a loud bunch of assholes that give that bad impression. And they are either louder or more numerous or both than in the past.

Thing is you just won’t often hear about the guys that play responsibly. They just are not the internet warrior type, nor the kind to make the news with the gun in some incident or accident. So we just do what we do, with our own and with our critics.

And you don’t hear about the people like my grandparents, in that gated community, with the loaded pistol in the nightstand drawer, unless they have a grandchild younger than 10 who manages to pull it out and shoot themselves.

301 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 4:16:56pm

Ugh - a chronic back problem is flaring up again. Walking real slow right now.

302 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:19:59pm

By “Liberals” J.B. means Republicans.

303 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 4:20:59pm

re: #300 klys

Yes, anytime bad habits come in risk soars. Fortunately there is *some reason to see gun accidents have been trending down for a long time. We all want a zero rate but people find the darndest ways to screw up. And it’s very deliberate that I stipulate proper storage often.

Disclosure National Sports shooting Foundation document

Note: The statistics presented in this issue are based on figures from the National Safety Council’s Injury Facts(r) 2013 edition and other sources.
For additional source information, please see back cover

304 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 4:21:01pm

re: #302 Pie-onist Overlord

Every day is opposite day at #tcot.

305 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 4:21:54pm

re: #301 Charles Johnson

Ugh - a chronic back problem is flaring up again. Walking real slow right now.

Does a heating pad help? Hope it gets better soon.

306 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 4:23:22pm

re: #305 Justanotherhuman

It’s one of those back problems that nothing really helps - I’ve tried pretty much everything. From an old injury. When it acts up, all I can really do is wait it out.

307 A Mom Anon  May 27, 2014 4:24:56pm

re: #302 Pie-onist Overlord

I’m SO sick of these assberets telling everyone what it is I do and hate all day long. I can guarantee this buffoon I get more done and am more patriotic in my everyday life than anyone that sits on their ass and proclaims shit on the internet. I just don’t have inordinate amounts of time to brag about it, because, you know, I’m DOING stuff.

308 Rightwingconspirator  May 27, 2014 4:25:54pm

re: #306 Charles Johnson

It’s one of those back problems that nothing really helps - I’ve tried pretty much everything. From an old injury. When it acts up, all I can really do is wait it out.

Heal fast and well Charles. Hate those old chronic issues.

309 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 4:28:22pm

re: #301 Charles Johnson

Ugh - a chronic back problem is flaring up again. Walking real slow right now.

I have two words for you: Inversion table
/Best money I ever spent

310 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 4:28:39pm

One problem with the very logical and sensible point that Obdi brings up about the degree of risk most people who feel the need for a gun for self defense are ACTUALLY exposed to is that it is irrelevant to pretty much all of them, and the counterarguments are already made into t-shirts. “You never need a gun until you REALLY, REALLY NEED it!”, for example.

The whole rational argument falls apart under the equivalent of Cheney’s ‘One Percent Doctrine’, whereby even if the chance of something horrible happening is only 1%, that 1% still justifies taking extreme action. Similarly, even if the chance that your home will be invaded is tiny, it’s still not zero, and the consequences are presumed to be SO AWFUL as to justify the increased risk of a gun in the house.

Mind you, most of these folks will assume there is NO INCREASED RISK for them, because they’re Responsible Gun Owners. It’s never Responsible Gun Owners whose children accidentally shoot themselves or their siblings or playmates, nor do Responsible Gun Owners ever accidentally shoot themselves, or get angry or drunk and do something stupid and kill someone.

No, THEY are immune to that risk.

As luck would have it, Mrs. J spent the mornings this weekend at a gun safety class, because her Gal Pals thought it might be fun. She enjoyed the class, and the shooting, but has no interest in following it up. (She enjoys classes of just about any kind, and always excels at the book larnin’ part). Neither of us feels particularly inclined to pursue firearms as a hobby.

311 Kid A  May 27, 2014 4:28:44pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I would have preferred we leave behind a stable democracy. I’m not expecting perfection but something along the lines of Iraq. Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension but the government is stable and not in danger of collapsing or being overthrown. I don;t think we’re leaving behind a stable government in Afghanistan.

[begin rant]I would prefer if we wouldn’t borrow $2T dollars to institute anything. A stable democracy in that part of the world (I don’t think I can even include Israel here because of the region it is in) is a pipe dream. PERIOD. If you want to base success along the lines of Iraq, hey, the Cubs did win a World Series one time, huh? Yeah, “stuff blows up sometimes.” What the fuck kind of non sequitur is that? You think the government is stable there? My ass. You want to know why we’re not leaving behind a stable government in Afghanistan? BECAUSE IT WAS AN IMPOSSIBLE ENDEAVOR TO BEGIN WITH. You can not reason with people that live in the Old Testament.[/end of rant]

312 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:28:57pm

re: #307 A Mom Anon

I’m SO sick of these assberets telling everyone what it is I do and hate all day long. I can guarantee this buffoon I get more done and am more patriotic in my everyday life than anyone that sits on their ass and proclaims shit on the internet. I just don’t have inordinate amounts of time to brag about it, because, you know, I’m DOING stuff.

Projection, it’s what wingnuts do.

313 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:29:17pm
314 dog philosopher  May 27, 2014 4:30:02pm

Liberals hate Jews, black people, prosperity, hope, hard work, justice, and the United States

in that case, democrats and progressives are not the same as whoever it is that you are talking about

315 b.d.  May 27, 2014 4:30:03pm

re: #301 Charles Johnson

Ugh - a chronic back problem is flaring up again. Walking real slow right now.

Sorry Charles, I wouldn’t wish back pain on my worst enemy. Hope all gets better soon.

316 klys  May 27, 2014 4:30:09pm

re: #310 GeneJockey

I wouldn’t mind going shooting at some point, with a real gun as opposed to a BB gun, just so I have some context/perspective/new experience.

I have little expectation* that it would change anything about my attitude towards having one at home.

* I’m a scientist, it’s really hard to use the word never.

317 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:31:21pm
318 bratwurst  May 27, 2014 4:32:01pm

You knew he was going to have a dumb take on this…but did you think it would be THIS dumb?

Glenn Beck Reads Elliot Rodger’s Manifesto: ‘That Is Almost An Exact Quote From Teddy Roosevelt’

319 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 4:32:18pm

re: #316 klys

I wouldn’t mind going shooting at some point, with a real gun as opposed to a BB gun, just so I have some context/perspective/new experience.

I have little expectation* that it would change anything about my attitude towards having one at home.

* I’m a scientist, it’s really hard to use the word never.

This weekend, Mrs. J said, “Never say never. Wait! I just said it! TWICE!!”

320 klys  May 27, 2014 4:32:57pm

re: #319 GeneJockey

This weekend, Mrs. J said, “Never say never. Wait! I just said it! TWICE!!”

I still need to connect with you for archery lessons. >.>

321 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:34:00pm

re: #318 bratwurst

You knew he was going to have a dumb take on this…but did you think it would be THIS dumb?

Glenn Beck Reads Elliot Rodger’s Manifesto: ‘That Is Almost An Exact Quote From Teddy Roosevelt’

Let him talk. Let him tell us how he really feels.

322 b.d.  May 27, 2014 4:34:39pm
323 jaunte  May 27, 2014 4:38:10pm

re: #317 Pie-onist Overlord

He should get a move on.

324 Bubblehead II  May 27, 2014 4:38:32pm

Afternoon Lizards. It’s Friday!

325 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 4:39:01pm

re: #317 Pie-onist Overlord

Great. Snowden shutting up would be a wonderful start.

326 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:39:25pm

The flag of “Novorossiya”, funny coincidence.

Image: 900px-Flag_of_Novorussia_%28project%29.svg.png

327 Gus  May 27, 2014 4:39:47pm

re: #313 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Edward Snowden. Master of doucheguise.

328 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 4:40:32pm

We actually HAVE guns at home. But they’re locked up, and would be hard to get at. I liked the idea of a .22 for plinking, and hunting with a black powder rifle, and I had allowed myself to be influenced by others to believe that a gun for self defense made sense.

Well, there’s no place within 4 hours drive to plink; cartridge guns caught on and superceded muzzeloaders because they’re much more reliable, in addition to me being a lousy hunter; and I realized I live in a very safe neighborhood.

So, they’re locked up.

329 b.d.  May 27, 2014 4:41:15pm

re: #324 Bubblehead II

Afternoon Lizards. It’s Friday!

Sure as hell feels like a Monday to me.

330 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2014 4:42:21pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Can’t speak for anyone but where I go and what I see, and that is of course anecdotal. We certainly have a loud bunch of assholes that give that bad impression. And they are either louder or more numerous or both than in the past.

Thing is you just won’t often hear about the guys that play responsibly. They just are not the internet warrior type, nor the kind to make the news with the gun in some incident or accident. So we just do what we do, with our own and with our critics.

Yep. And that’s what TBogg clearly described in his post over at Raw Story.
I was NRA also during the same timeframe as he was, and saw the same disintegration of responsible gun ownership.
Distresses me greatly.

331 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:43:16pm
332 Kid A  May 27, 2014 4:45:12pm

Heritage, you are such fools.

Its population is growing. Its people are becoming more prosperous. It is creating both billionaires and employing more minimum-wage workers than any other state. Its energy sector has thrived—year-over-year drilling has doubled so far in 2014, with 10,000 new wells drilled just since January. Its technology corridor now extends for hundreds of miles along I-35.
Texas is the hottest state economy this side of North Dakota. But some still refuse to acknowledge the Texas Miracle.

Where’s the mention of some of the highest property taxes in the country? How about the dumbest students? The highest amount of uninsured when it comes to health coverage? The highest incarceration of minorities? One of the most obese states? One of the highest amounts of substance abuse?

I live here, Jim Demented.

333 Bubblehead II  May 27, 2014 4:45:42pm

re: #329 b.d.

Sure as hell feels like a Monday to me.

Sunday/Monday off?

334 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:45:55pm
335 Bubblehead II  May 27, 2014 4:48:17pm

re: #326 Sergey Romanov

The flag of “Novorossiya”, funny coincidence.

Image: 900px-Flag_of_Novorussia_%28project%29.svg.png

re: #331 Sergey Romanov

Image: 1231035_600.jpg

re: #334 Sergey Romanov

Image: n.jpg

They do realize those guys lost?

336 Charles Johnson  May 27, 2014 4:48:54pm
337 b.d.  May 27, 2014 4:48:57pm

re: #333 Bubblehead II

Sunday/Monday off?

It was a nice 3 day weekend and though the calender says today is Tuesday, it sure felt like a Monday.

Today is your Friday? What are you going to do for your weekend?

338 TedStriker  May 27, 2014 4:49:44pm

re: #317 Pie-onist Overlord

Snowden keep threatening that he can make himself “unrecognizable” and he can “dissapear”, but no one seem to care much. :(

— BWD (@theonlyadult) May 27, 2014

Funny that Snowjob’s cloak of invisibility hasn’t helped him to get out of Russia…

339 William Barnett-Lewis  May 27, 2014 4:49:56pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Can’t speak for anyone but where I go and what I see, and that is of course anecdotal. We certainly have a loud bunch of assholes that give that bad impression. And they are either louder or more numerous or both than in the past.

Thing is you just won’t often hear about the guys that play responsibly. They just are not the internet warrior type, nor the kind to make the news with the gun in some incident or accident. So we just do what we do, with our own and with our critics.

How many hear about things like you and I talking last night about my project? Or even though we try be out there, about there even being such a thing as a Liberal Gun Club?

If I were rich, I’d start an ad campaign showing good responsible gun owners saying why they quit the NRA. With FUDD wood & steel as well as modern EBR/”Modern Sporting Rifles” (I don’t mind them, but I hate that phrase even more than a journalist calling them “assault rifles”.)

Buy full page ads & bill boards and show the nation there is more to the discussion than either the NRA and the Brady Campaign.

340 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:50:20pm

re: #335 Bubblehead II

They do realize those guys lost?

… condamned to repeat it and all that stuff.

341 jaunte  May 27, 2014 4:51:08pm

re: #336 Charles Johnson

He’s a Smarty for sure.

342 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:52:14pm

Come and join the Snowden Party.

343 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:52:18pm

re: #331 Sergey Romanov

Image: 1231035_600.jpg

Wait, Novorossiya includes Donbassa? What about Luganda?

344 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 4:52:34pm

re: #311 Kid A

You can not reason with people that live in the Old Testament.[/end of rant]

Jews will be very disappointed to learn that.

345 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:53:32pm

re: #343 Pie-onist Overlord

Wait, Novorossiya includes Donbassa? What about Luganda?

Today’s pseudo-Novorossiya (which exists only in the separatists’ minds of course) consists of Donetskaya and Luganskaya oblasts.

346 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:54:59pm

re: #344 Killgore Trout

Jews will be very disappointed to learn that.

Maybe you haven’t been around for the last 2000 years or so, and don’t know that there have been some developments in Judaism after the Tanakh… ;)

347 SteveMcGazi  May 27, 2014 4:55:12pm

re: #344 Killgore Trout

Jews will be very disappointed to learn that.

Not sure they live in the Old Testament.

348 jaunte  May 27, 2014 4:56:10pm
349 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:57:09pm

re: #345 Sergey Romanov

Today’s pseudo-Novorossiya (which exists only in the separatists’ minds of course) consists of Donetskaya and Luganskaya oblasts.

Is that photo a joke?

350 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 4:58:12pm

re: #349 Pie-onist Overlord

Is that photo a joke?

For us, maybe. For them it’s serious.

351 Pie-onist Overlord  May 27, 2014 4:59:12pm

Wingnuts spamming this lame shit again.

352 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 5:00:06pm

re: #320 klys

I still need to connect with you for archery lessons. >.>

genejockeyca at yahoo

353 klys  May 27, 2014 5:01:09pm

Placing here, because I am ashamed to admit I hadn’t really thought about this and it’s a good reminder for all pet owners:

If you leave on vacation and your pets stay with a pet sitter, please leave explicit directions on what you authorize them to do with the pets if they are sick, where they are authorized to bring those pets, and what decisions they can make. This is no fun to figure out over the phone when you are a thousand miles away.
I leave a two page manifesto with veterinary care directions, limits to how much I would be able to pay and in what circumstances, in what conditions the petsitter and vet can make the decision on euthanasia, and a credit card to pay so my poor petsitter doesn’t need to pony up out of pocket if something happens. If everyone did this it would save people a lot of grief.

Shared with permission from a friend who is a vet.

354 EPR-radar  May 27, 2014 5:01:32pm

re: #339 William Barnett-Lewis

How many hear about things like you and I talking last night about my project? Or even though we try be out there, about there even being such a thing as a Liberal Gun Club?

If I were rich, I’d start an ad campaign showing good responsible gun owners saying why they quit the NRA. With FUDD wood & steel as well as modern EBR/”Modern Sporting Rifles” (I don’t mind them, but I hate that phrase even more than a journalist calling them “assault rifles”.)

Buy full page ads & bill boards and show the nation there is more to the discussion than either the NRA and the Brady Campaign.

Sensible gun advocacy is probably the least-heard position in what passes for the “debate” on guns in the US. The NRA is busy making enemies, and naturally fails to realize that blowback from their evil nonsense is the only real threat to the second amendment.

355 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 5:01:51pm

re: #346 Sergey Romanov

Maybe you haven’t been around for the last 2000 years or so, and don’t know that there have been some developments in Judaism after the Tanakh… ;)

lox!

356 A Mom Anon  May 27, 2014 5:02:08pm

See you all tomorrow. The Son has had a rough day, had a long talk on the way back up to school today about all this Asperger’s in the news crapola and the shooting in CA and he was just so sad when I left him.

The Husband and I are setting up a video chat and putting silly hats on the dog to cheer him up. Be excellent to each other.

357 jaunte  May 27, 2014 5:02:37pm
358 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 5:04:02pm

re: #357 jaunte

There is the story of a man who lived by a river. A policeman warns him to evacuate because of a flood warning. The man rejects the offer and says, “I have perfect trust in God to save me.” As the water rises, a person in a boat offers to take him to safety. The man again replies with his proclamation of trust and refuses the ride. Finally, as the man is sitting on his roof, a helicopter comes to rescue him; again the man proclaims his trust and refuses the rescue. The water rises, the man drowns and is finally standing in judgment before the Almighty. “God, I had perfect trust in You. Why did You let me down?” The Almighty replies, “But, my son, I sent a policeman, a boat and a helicopter!”

359 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 5:05:03pm

re: #357 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Did the Christian god ever promise that we couldn’t fuck thing up? That he’d clean up after us? IIRC, the whole NT thing is about salvation, not protecting us from ourselves.

360 b.d.  May 27, 2014 5:06:10pm

re: #357 jaunte

[Embedded content]

You call Texas in August “God handling our climate pretty well”?

361 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 5:06:19pm

re: #313 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

But he will always look like a smug asshole.

362 jaunte  May 27, 2014 5:06:37pm

re: #359 GeneJockey

He’s only a sports-talk-show theologian, so he probably hasn’t thought about it much.

363 b.d.  May 27, 2014 5:06:53pm

re: #356 A Mom Anon

Sorry A Mom Anon, I hope tomorrow is a good day.

364 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 5:07:22pm

re: #362 jaunte

He’s only a sports-talk-show theologian, so he probably hasn’t thought about it much.

I suspect you’re being charitable.

365 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 5:07:28pm

re: #359 GeneJockey

Did the Christian god ever promise that we couldn’t fuck thing up? That he’d clean up after us?

First no, second yes. See the book of Revelations.
/

366 Gus  May 27, 2014 5:07:45pm

re: #357 jaunte

[Embedded content]

So if a massive asteroid was making a beeline for Earth… oh never mind.

367 Kid A  May 27, 2014 5:09:47pm

re: #351 Pie-onist Overlord

Uh, Columbia didn’t have barcodes on their student IDs back then, dumbfucks.

368 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 5:09:54pm

re: #366 Gus

So if a massive asteroid was making a beeline for Earth… oh never mind.

Jesus. Baseball bat. Need I say more?

369 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 27, 2014 5:10:52pm

re: #367 Kid A

Uh, Columbia didn’t have barcodes on their student IDs back then, dumbfucks.

It’s like the previous video about kids and ancient computers. Except the kids are dumb and evil.

370 jaunte  May 27, 2014 5:13:04pm
371 Kragar  May 27, 2014 5:14:59pm
372 b.d.  May 27, 2014 5:15:30pm

re: #370 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Dewhurst is such a horrible campaigner that I can’t believe he ever got elected to anything in the first place.

The only hope Texans have now is that Patrick is such a giant douchebag that even his own republicans can’t work with him.

373 Gus  May 27, 2014 5:16:00pm

re: #368 Sergey Romanov

Jesus. Baseball bat. Need I say more?

Beelievers!

374 Belafon  May 27, 2014 5:17:08pm

re: #351 Pie-onist Overlord

That’s one of Darrell Issa’s alternate accounts.

//

375 Gus  May 27, 2014 5:17:19pm
376 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 5:20:17pm

I suppose because it wasn’t about him, Godwald did not tweet one time (nor did anyone else) about Snowden’s interview with Brian Williams.

The Russians are going to have to pay for a lot of plastic surgery to protect their “asset”.

377 danarchy  May 27, 2014 5:21:27pm

re: #353 klys

Placing here, because I am ashamed to admit I hadn’t really thought about this and it’s a good reminder for all pet owners:

Shared with permission from a friend who is a vet.

Luckily my regular pet sitter is also my vet who also happens to be an old college friend as well :)

378 Stanley Sea  May 27, 2014 5:23:30pm

re: #368 Sergey Romanov

Jesus. Baseball bat. Need I say more?

Hahahahaha ha!

379 klys  May 27, 2014 5:23:41pm

re: #377 danarchy

Luckily my regular pet sitter is also my vet who also happens to be an old college friend as well :)

Yeah, in a lot of cases you can skate by (and honestly, if we lived close enough she would probably be our pet sitter - although not our vet, because she likes to maintain some emotional distance from clients, but she’s always happy to provide a second opinion) but …for a lot of us, it’s good to have it out and in writing.

380 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 5:24:09pm

Libyan Islamists to U.S.: Don’t interfere or face worse than Iraq

Mohamed Zahawi, head of the Benghazi brigade of Ansar al-Sharia, accused the U.S. government of backing renegade former general Khalifa Haftar, who has begun a self-declared campaign to purge Libya of Islamist militants.

“We remind America, if they intervene, of their defeats in Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia, because they would face in Libya something much worse,” he said in a statement. “It was America who urged Haftar to turn the country towards war and bloodshed.”

381 GeneJockey  May 27, 2014 5:25:07pm

re: #378 Stanley Sea

Hahahahaha ha!

Could God throw a fastball so fast he himself couldn’t hit it?

382 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 5:26:53pm

Quickly becoming Snowjob’s favorite disguise.

Image: 18tyrclyov5vdjpg.jpg

383 TedStriker  May 27, 2014 5:28:49pm

re: #375 Gus

Mah name is Luka.

She lives on the the second floor…

384 b.d.  May 27, 2014 5:29:54pm

NO WAY!!!!

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden says he has more revelations about Washington’s spying on German citizens, but Berlin is reluctant to invite him to testify because Germany has used the exact same surveillance methods as the US, Stern magazine reported.

via our friends at:
rt.com

I WONDER IF GREENWALD WILL PUBLISH THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE GERMANY HAS BEEN SPYING ON!?

385 Skip Intro  May 27, 2014 5:30:10pm

re: #381 GeneJockey

Could God throw a fastball so fast he himself couldn’t hit it?

I don’t know why we never talked about things like this when I went to church.

386 Justanotherhuman  May 27, 2014 5:30:47pm

Victim’s Father Speaks at Memorial During “Day of Mourning and Reflection”
Students and victims’ family members attended a memorial Tuesday evening for those killed in Isla Vista

nbclosangeles.com

Video.

387 b.d.  May 27, 2014 5:32:57pm

re: #381 GeneJockey

Could God throw a fastball so fast he himself couldn’t hit it?

If he put on an Astros uniform, yes.

388 jaunte  May 27, 2014 5:33:24pm

More Texas Primary news from the Texas Observer:

Sid Miller, the walking caricature who’s the favorite for agriculture commissioner in the race against former state Rep. Tommy Merritt, has Ted Nugent as his campaign treasurer and a relative lack of agriculture experience. He’s centered his campaign around abortion and other red meat issues, making explicit he was doing so in part because ag commissioner is a stepping stone to other statewide office. His aide also accused Merritt of having sex with a prostitute in the Capitol parking garage when he was in the Legislature. Texas farmers can look forward to another four years of expert, technocratic stewardship at the Texas Department of Agriculture.
texasobserver.org

389 Varek Raith  May 27, 2014 5:34:26pm

That was one hell of a storm.

390 Varek Raith  May 27, 2014 5:36:12pm

re: #366 Gus

So if a massive asteroid was making a beeline for Earth… oh never mind.

Let’s find out!
*Fiddles with mass driver*

391 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 5:39:11pm
392 palomino  May 27, 2014 5:42:41pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I would have preferred we leave behind a stable democracy. I’m not expecting perfection but something along the lines of Iraq. Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension but the government is stable and not in danger of collapsing or being overthrown. I don;t think we’re leaving behind a stable government in Afghanistan.

The hubris and ignorance in that statement are amazing.

We don’t control the world, and we can’t, despite the fantasies of many on the right. We can’t just invade countries and make them democratic. Sorry, but we don’t actually “create our own reality”, as the Bush Administration found out the hard and bloody way. And Iraq is still a shithole. How many failed adventures abroad do we need before Americans realize this?

393 EmmaAnne  May 27, 2014 5:57:08pm

re: #306 Charles Johnson

It’s one of those back problems that nothing really helps - I’ve tried pretty much everything. From an old injury. When it acts up, all I can really do is wait it out.

Is it doing that spasming thing? I hate that spasming thing. :-(

394 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 5:59:34pm

re: #392 palomino

Yes there seems to be much outrage wishing there was a brighter future for the people of Afghanistan. I know it seems incomprehensible but Obama probably wishes the same. Even that evil George Bush wishes it too. Oh, well. I wish the Afghan people a better future but you don’t have to.

395 klys  May 27, 2014 6:05:18pm

re: #394 Killgore Trout

Yes there seems to be much outrage wishing there was a brighter future for the people of Afghanistan. I know it seems incomprehensible but Obama probably wishes the same. Even that evil George Bush wishes it too. Oh, well. I wish the Afghan people a better future but you don’t have to.

It is possible to wish the people in Afghanistan a better future and want US troops out of there. It is possible to wish the people in Afghanistan a better future and recognize that no amount of imposing democracy on them was going to magically fix things and make it better without addressing the underlying issues that have allowed that culture to flourish - a commitment that probably would have required decades (if completable) and one we can’t even fucking finish at home.

396 Killgore Trout  May 27, 2014 6:10:37pm

re: #395 klys

It is possible to wish the people in Afghanistan a better future and want US troops out of there. It is possible to wish the people in Afghanistan a better future and recognize that no amount of imposing democracy on them was going to magically fix things and make it better without addressing the underlying issues that have allowed that culture to flourish - a commitment that probably would have required decades (if completable) and one we can’t even fucking finish at home.

Agreed. There were a lot of obstacles (cultural, religious, geo-political, etc). I see nothing wrong with wishing the obstacles could have been overcome.

397 palomino  May 27, 2014 6:11:54pm

re: #394 Killgore Trout

Yes there seems to be much outrage wishing there was a brighter future for the people of Afghanistan. I know it seems incomprehensible but Obama probably wishes the same. Even that evil George Bush wishes it too. Oh, well. I wish the Afghan people a better future but you don’t have to.

I wish all people a better future, even college kids who protest against Wall Street and economic inequality. I even wish a better future for you, because your present clearly doesn’t add up to much.

You have no arguments. You merely cut and paste, shuck and jive, then get snippy when challenged.

398 CuriousLurker  May 27, 2014 6:13:45pm

re: #395 klys

He’s playing head games again—just leave it alone, it’s not worth the agita.

399 Bubblehead II  May 27, 2014 6:14:21pm

re: #337 b.d.

It was a nice 3 day weekend and though the calender says today is Tuesday, it sure felt like a Monday.

Today is your Friday? What are you going to do for your weekend?

Sat/Weds Laundry day sitting on my ass hanging out here at LGF and perusing the various news channels* and cooking dinner.

Sun/Thurs sitting on my ass hanging out here at LGF and perusing the various news channels* and cooking dinner.

// I have a real exciting life.

* Unless the Mrs has a Honey Do list for me.

* Only one item on it (so far) for this weekend. Spray the rock gardens and fence lines with roundup.

400 klys  May 27, 2014 6:16:50pm

re: #398 CuriousLurker

He’s playing head games again—just leave it alone, it’s not worth the agita.

I will take your advice.

401 palomino  May 27, 2014 6:16:57pm

re: #398 CuriousLurker

He’s playing head games again—just leave it alone, it’s not worth the agita.

You’re absolutely right. Because KT doesn’t converse with good faith or sincerity. He’s the kind of fool who mistakes nonconformity with intellectual courage.

Best to ignore or insult him. He deserves nothing more.

402 Bubblehead II  May 27, 2014 6:28:29pm

re: #399 Bubblehead II

Sat/Weds Laundry day sitting on my ass hanging out here at LGF and perusing the various news channels* and cooking dinner.

Sun/Thurs sitting on my ass hanging out here at LGF and perusing the various news channels* and cooking dinner.

// I have a real exciting life.

* Unless the Mrs has a Honey Do list for me.

* Only one item on it (so far) for this weekend. Spray the rock gardens and fence lines with roundup.

Also forgot to add. Doing you tube searches for vids and music.

403 De Kolta Chair  May 31, 2014 12:17:51pm

Paraphrasing Mark Shields on Friday’s PBS Newshour: “It wasn’t an eloquent speech, so it was a lousy speech.”


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
4 hours ago
Views: 30 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
7 hours ago
Views: 85 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1