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NSA Releases Email From Snowden: Did Not Report Abuse or Wrongdoing

Snowden was lying
US News • Views: 32,243

Edward Snowden claims he sent numerous emails to NSA officials and the Office of General Counsel, trying to “blow the whistle” before he decided it wasn’t working and he needed to steal as much top secret material as he could before fleeing the country.

Yesterday, after his interview with Brian Williams, NBC stated they had confirmed Snowden’s claim: Paper Trail? Email Backs Snowden’s Claim He Sent Concerns to NSA

U.S. officials once disputed NSA contractor Edward Snowden’s claim that he had raised questions about the agency’s domestic surveillance programs before he fled the U.S. with thousands of stolen documents, but now confirm that Snowden sent at least one email about the agency’s practices to officials.

In an exclusive interview with NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams, Snowden said he had warned the NSA while working as an NSA contractor that he felt the agency was overstepping its bounds.

“I actually did go through channels, and that is documented,” he asserted. “The NSA has records, they have copies of emails right now to their Office of General Counsel, to their oversight and compliance folks, from me raising concerns about the NSA’s interpretations of its legal authorities. … The response more or less, in bureaucratic language, was, ‘You should stop asking questions.’”

But guess what? The NSA now says they’ll be releasing the sole email Edward Snowden sent to the Office of General Counsel — and it has nothing to do with reporting wrongdoing or abuse.

UPDATE at 5/29/14 11:25:26 am

And here’s that email, posted at the IC On The Record blog in two images:

Jump to bottom

417 comments

1 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:12:45am

“Well of course the NSA is going to lie about it.”
///

2 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:13:42am

“The lack of evidence IS the evidence!”

3 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:14:23am

re: #2 Kragar

“The lack of evidence IS the evidence!”

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

4 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:15:17am

Now the Snowden camp is forced to prove that God exists.

5 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 11:15:27am

Greenwald’s big breaking story yesterday fizzles out.

6 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:16:04am

re: #3 Gus

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

Oh, so you’re a drooling fascist.
/

7 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 11:16:43am

When he is finally apprehended and brought to trial, his defense will be: “I never stole any top-secret documents, I just took a couple of lame Power Points! You can’t prove I did!”

8 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 11:18:15am

“Snowden sent the April 2013 email to the NSA’s lawyers while on temporary assignment at NSA headquarters in Ft. Meade, Md. ”

That’s probably a lie, as well.

Let me check his girlfriend’s diary to see if he was in Hawaii around that time.

nbcnews.com

9 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:19:50am
10 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:21:19am

If he really was that concerned, you might have thought he would have reached out to members of Congress.

11 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:21:41am
12 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 11:22:07am
13 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 11:23:08am

Here’s that email:

icontherecord.tumblr.com

14 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 11:23:48am

Charles, I just directed this question to you in the previous thread when I noticed you had started this one.

So, what did you think of the big Snowden interview last night? Would you care to give us a few comments. I’d be interested on your take because much of it seems to go to what many around here at LGF thought just days after it broke last year.

15 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 11:23:58am
16 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 11:24:00am

re: #12 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Never. Because you know the NSA is going to cover it up/delete it.

//

17 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:24:35am

EVERY EMAIL THAT THEY DON’T PRODUCE FURTHER PROVES MY CLAIM!

18 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:25:14am
19 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:25:42am
20 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:25:46am

Ed

21 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:26:27am

Everyone knows the NSA is full of lying deceitful bastards, only concerned with amassing power for their masters in the NSA, and not hard working, loyal Americans dedicated to protecting the USA from serious global threats.

22 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 11:26:28am
23 ericblair  May 29, 2014 11:26:32am

re: #1 Kragar

“Well of course the NSA is going to lie about it.”
///

I guess we’ll see if they try to double down now, because this is pretty damn important. His whole rationale for blowing town was that he couldn’t get anyone to listen: of course, if you don’t say anything it’s hard for people to listen, huh?

The vast majority of people in government take laws seriously, and wherever you are, IG investigations are a big deal. All of the dudebro proposed fixes try to make it technically impossible to do anything wrong, but don’t realize that at the end it’s the rules and processes at a human level that people respect and that make things work properly.

24 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:26:36am

THE REAL EMAILS ARE KEPT AT AREA 52

25 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:26:58am

[redacted]

26 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 11:27:31am
27 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 11:27:36am

re: #9 wrenchwench

FYI every email sent to or from on both unclassified and classified information systems of the United States Government is archived

In theory. Sometimes broke down in practice, depending on low-level admins to follow requirements.

28 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:27:46am

That’s it?

29 Minor_L  May 29, 2014 11:27:52am

re: #23 ericblair

Their response has to be, “the government is lying!” That’s the only explanation they’ve ever given when official information proves them wrong.

Or, they’ll say he sent emails to others, not just the Office of General Counsel. Because they love to shift the goalposts.

30 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:28:46am

I see you have all failed to notice the microdot in the third sentence where Snowden’s actual message was concealed.

31 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 11:29:18am

re: #28 Gus

That’s it?

Any response from GG?

32 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:29:20am

[snowden] I SENT SOME EMAILS IN INVISIBLE INK, I LEARNT THAT IN SPY SKOOL [/snowden]

33 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 11:30:26am

re: #8 Justanotherhuman

“Snowden sent the April 2013 email to the NSA’s lawyers while on temporary assignment at NSA headquarters in Ft. Meade, Md. “

That’s probably a lie, as well.

Let me check his girlfriend’s diary to see if he was in Hawaii around that time.

nbcnews.com

Lsjourney @lsjourneys * 29 Mar 2013

.turtle. #blogday #flaminfriday #selfportrait I’ll be on my own for the next week or two. #Turtle and… instagram.com

Doesn’t tell you much. Snowjob could have been any place. They also moved to another house in April (she talks about it and packing).

34 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:30:44am

re: #27 Decatur Deb

In theory. Sometimes broke down in practice, depending on low-level admins to follow requirements.

Including low-level sys admins?

35 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 11:31:40am

re: #9 wrenchwench

FYI every email sent to or from on both unclassified and classified information systems of the United States Government is archived #period

Well, except those e-mails during the Bush II Regency, which mysteriously disappeared.

36 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 11:31:44am

And all of you just go and believe the NSA???

Snowden knew it would be like this…

///

37 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 11:31:47am
38 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:32:23am

Emails are dated April 2013. Greenwald and others were already in contact with Snowden on February of 2013. Is this some kind of joke?

39 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:32:53am
40 lawhawk  May 29, 2014 11:33:20am

re: #38 Gus

This goes to what I was saying in the last thread; Snowden’s interview and statements are a lame attempt at retconning, and they fail to pass the smell test.

41 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:33:29am

re: #38 Gus

Emails addressed to Belated CYA Dept.

42 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 11:33:41am

re: #32 b.d.

[snowden] I SENT SOME EMAILS IN INVISIBLE INK, I LEARNT THAT IN SPY SKOOL [/snowden]

I used white font on a white background….

43 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:33:43am

re: #39 wrenchwench

oooh…popcorn!!!

44 klys  May 29, 2014 11:34:05am

re: #38 Gus

Emails are dated April 2013. Greenwald and others were already in contact with Snowden on February of 2013. Is this some kind of joke?

Last minute attempt to provide some justification for what was about to happen, but he couldn’t *actually* raise concerns because that could invite closer scrutiny and he couldn’t risk that at some point.

45 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 11:34:16am

re: #34 wrenchwench

Including low-level sys admins?

Expressly system admins. Sometimes even relied on compliance from individual account holders. (This is going back to the 90s. They might have automated the process since, but such automation would still be piecemeal. “Some SOB always fails to get the message.”)

46 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 11:34:30am

re: #24 b.d.

THE REAL EMAILS ARE KEPT AT AREA 52

Holy shit! There’s an Area 52!?!11?!

47 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:35:09am

re: #38 Gus

Emails are dated April 2013. Greenwald and others were already in contact with Snowden on February of 2013. Is this some kind of joke?

PLEASE tweet that!

48 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 11:36:24am

re: #46 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Holy shit! There’s an Area 52!?!11?!

No. There are only Areas 51 and 53.

49 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 11:36:54am

re: #48 Decatur Deb

No. There are only Areas 51 and 53.

Area 52 is across the street.

50 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:37:21am

re: #48 Decatur Deb

No. There are only Areas 51 and 53.

But all the REAL answers are at Area 42.

51 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:37:36am

re: #47 Backwoods_Sleuth

PLEASE tweet that!

Sort of did already.

52 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 11:37:37am

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Can I assume “Ctr” after Snowjob’s name means Ft Meade?

53 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 11:37:50am

re: #50 Backwoods_Sleuth

But all the REAL answers are at Area 42.

The one answer you need to the big question, at least.

54 ericblair  May 29, 2014 11:38:08am

re: #39 wrenchwench

now that you have his full JWICS email address public & journos you can FOIA his entire email history during his time at Dept of Defense

JWICS (the Top Secret intelligence community network) addresses aren’t usually classified, but people tend to be careful passing them around. Also, the email is caveatted For Official Use Only (FOUO), which means it’s exempt from FOIA requirements.

55 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:38:20am

re: #51 Gus

Sort of did already.

Just saw that.

56 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:38:51am
57 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 11:39:31am

re: #54 ericblair

JWICS (the Top Secret intelligence community network) addresses aren’t usually classified, but people tend to be careful passing them around. Also, the email is caveatted For Official Use Only (FOUO), which means it’s exempt from FOIA requirements.

But couldn’t the NSA (or whatever agency he was working for) release them of their own volition, redacted, without a FOIA?

58 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:39:38am

re: #54 ericblair

JWICS (the Top Secret intelligence community network) addresses aren’t usually classified, but people tend to be careful passing them around. Also, the email is caveatted For Official Use Only (FOUO), which means it’s exempt from FOIA requirements.

Interesting. Caruso usually knows what he’s talking about, but not always….

59 ericblair  May 29, 2014 11:39:38am

re: #52 Justanotherhuman

Can I assume “Ctr” after Snowjob’s name means Ft Meade?

No, that means “contractor”. Could be anywhere. It’s so govvies don’t send acquisition sensitive or otherwise government-only information to the wrong people.

60 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:40:36am

Has the price of GG’s book started dropping yet?

61 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:41:53am

re: #54 ericblair

JWICS (the Top Secret intelligence community network) addresses aren’t usually classified, but people tend to be careful passing them around. Also, the email is caveatted For Official Use Only (FOUO), which means it’s exempt from FOIA requirements.

62 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 29, 2014 11:42:48am

re: #61 wrenchwench

Who is he?

63 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 11:42:49am

re: #59 ericblair

No, that means “contractor”. Could be anywhere. It’s so govvies don’t send acquisition sensitive or otherwise government-only information to the wrong people.

Ah, thanks. Do you know what the “hfv” stands for?

Also, this email is designated “Unclassified//For Official Use Only”.

It ain’t top secret.

64 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 11:42:50am
65 ericblair  May 29, 2014 11:43:02am

re: #57 Rev_Arthur_Belling

But couldn’t the NSA (or whatever agency he was working for) release them of their own volition, redacted, without a FOIA?

That seems to be what they did. FOUO information isn’t technically classified, but does have special handling, so they’d probably need authorization at the correct management level and a nod from the legal guys. The email is government property.

66 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 11:44:07am

re: #64 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

OFSS.

67 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:44:14am

re: #64 Charles Johnson

68 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 11:44:14am

re: #60 jaunte

Has the price of GG’s book started dropping yet?

Yep.

No Place to Hide: Edward Snowden, the NSA, and the U.S. Surveillance State by Glenn Greenwald (May 13, 2014)

$27.00 $16.20 Hardcover
Get it by Friday, May 30
$10.99 Kindle Edition
Auto-delivered wirelessly

69 Kragar  May 29, 2014 11:44:43am

re: #60 jaunte

Has the price of GG’s book started dropping yet?

Free on torrents most likely

70 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:46:01am

re: #62 Sergey Romanov

Who is he?

This guy.

71 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 11:48:11am
72 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 11:48:15am
73 ericblair  May 29, 2014 11:48:54am

re: #61 wrenchwench

incorrect. Every communication on a USG information system pursuant to classification review can be released under FOIA.

OK, I think he’s splitting hairs a bit here. The “pursuant to a classification review” means that a reviewer will check to see if it’s really FOUO (since most of the time it’s a decision of the writer whether to mark it like that), and if it’s NOT FOUO they can release it.

If it does have Privacy Act information, attorney-client privileged information, or other stuff like that it’s redacted in part or in full. You can’t FOIA somebody’s files to get their Social Security number and medical records.

74 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 11:49:36am

re: #67 Kragar

[Embedded content]

She lives in Indiana. Very active on The Guardian pages.

id.theguardian.com

75 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:49:54am

re: #71 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Can you still be considered “whip smart” and fail to print out basic copies that would prove your story?

76 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 11:49:58am

re: #68 Bubblehead II

Yep.

No Place to Hide: Edward Snowden, the NSA, and the U.S. Surveillance State by Glenn Greenwald (May 13, 2014)

$27.00 $16.20 Hardcover
Get it by Friday, May 30
$10.99 Kindle Edition
Auto-delivered wirelessly

This isn’t surprising to me. Hardcover books generally sell like shit for non-fiction. And this lame story isn’t one that is going to cause the general public to scramble to their local bookstore (assuming they can find one) or Amazon.

77 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 11:50:03am

re: #68 Bubblehead II

Yep.

No Place to Hide: Edward Snowden, the NSA, and the U.S. Surveillance State by Glenn Greenwald (May 13, 2014)

$27.00 $16.20 Hardcover
Get it by Friday, May 30
$10.99 Kindle Edition
Auto-delivered wirelessly

Does the auto-delivered version come with the NSA spy software already installed?
//

78 Shazam  May 29, 2014 11:50:18am

OMG. Even after that email the NSA refused to stop all of its illegal spying!!!!! Snowden was right!!!!!

///

79 klys  May 29, 2014 11:50:21am

Have a feel better video:

Youtube Video

80 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:50:58am

re: #75 b.d.

“whip smart”= capable of defeating an inanimate tool in debate

81 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 11:51:32am

re: #72 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Nothing is supposed to get out of the Army via FOIA without JAG review. Other agencies will have equivalent rules.

82 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:55:03am


“Dear Diary of Ed,
Here’s my list of NSA people and journalists to whom
I tried to to blow the whistle.”

83 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:55:47am

re: #79 klys

Have a feel better video:

[Embedded content]

Video

This one, too!

84 Gus  May 29, 2014 11:56:23am

All Snowden does in this email is “ask questions” about a presidential EO taking precedence over DOD and ODNI regulations.

85 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 11:56:48am

re: #84 Gus

All Snowden does in this email is “ask questions” about a presidential EO taking precedence over DOD and ODNI regulations.

Kinda like what GWB did.

86 raina  May 29, 2014 11:56:56am

re: #44 klys

Last minute attempt to provide some justification for what was about to happen, but he couldn’t *actually* raise concerns because that could invite closer scrutiny and he couldn’t risk that at some point.

yep it appears that way to me too. A pre-CYA.

87 klys  May 29, 2014 11:57:16am

re: #84 Gus

All Snowden does in this email is “ask questions” about a presidential EO taking precedence over DOD and ODNI regulations.

Apparently this should have raised all kinds of alarm bells all over the place, a big giant air siren that there were civil liberty abuses going on left and right!!!

///

88 b.d.  May 29, 2014 11:57:28am

Hey Ed! Before you run off with all of those stolen files you want to send an email or something that makes it look like you tried to do something.

89 jaunte  May 29, 2014 11:59:17am

re: #38 Gus

Emails are dated April 2013. Greenwald and others were already in contact with Snowden on February of 2013. Is this some kind of joke?

I wonder who suggested sending the one email they found?

90 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 11:59:55am

The right wing’s support for Greenwald/Snowden, and for privacy in general, will disappear like snow in a roaring furnace the minute they regain the White House.
Their fawning admiration for Putin and his old KGB cronies will do the same. Their manly man hero will suddenly become the reincarnation of Stalin.

An actual dudebro/conspiracist regime would prohibit all dissent on the grounds that it, and it alone, is the arbiter of what is good and right. There is no reason at all to doubt this, since they have declared it repeatedly in recent months.

These loathesome bastards do not oppose authority per se, they just oppose all authority but their own.

91 simoom  May 29, 2014 12:00:06pm

re: #84 Gus

Also this e-mail clearly matches what NBC referenced, very misleadingly, in their article as evidence of Snowden’s truthfulness and USG perfidy. Now that it’s released and not at all what was claimed, that article needs some major revisions and retractions:
nbcnews.com

92 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:00:24pm

re: #89 jaunte

I wonder who suggested sending the one email they found?

Greenwald?!? O.O

//

93 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 12:00:26pm

re: #77 Feline Fearless Leader

Does the auto-delivered version come with the NSA spy software already installed?
//

Nah. It waits until you first load it. Then it over rides your antivirus software, goes online with a highly secured WiFi connection to download a root kit written for your specific device. It also secretly turns on your GPS/camera/microphone so they can track/watch and listen to you. Those NSA bastards are a tricksy lot

94 ericblair  May 29, 2014 12:01:03pm

re: #86 raina

yep it appears that way to me too. A pre-CYA.

I’m thinking it was an honest question. The material he asks about was confusing and looked like it put EOs and federal law at the same level. Now that he needs some sort of justification for blowing town to Moscow he uses it to say “see, I really did try to tell them!”. Or, you know, not really, since we can read it now.

95 jaunte  May 29, 2014 12:01:13pm

re: #92 Gus

“Who have you protested to?” would be a logical question to come up when they met.

96 b.d.  May 29, 2014 12:01:26pm

On the way out, break a lamp so it looks like you were robbed.

97 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:01:33pm

re: #91 simoom

Also this e-mail clearly matches what NBC referenced, very misleadingly, in their article as evidence of Snowden’s truthfulness and USG perfidy. Now that it’s released that article needs some major revisions and retractions:
nbcnews.com

Your breath, don’t hold it.

98 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:03:52pm

re: #93 Bubblehead II

Nah. It waits until you first load it. Then it over rides your antivirus software, goes online with a highly secured WiFi connection to download a root kit written for your specific device. It also secretly turns on your GPS/camera/microphone so they can track/watch and listen to you. Those NSA bastards are a tricksy lot

They consider your data their preciousssss.

Comes from living in a dank cavern for years living on raw fish.
;)

99 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 12:04:35pm

re: #94 ericblair

I’m thinking it was an honest question. The material he asks about was confusing and looked like it put EOs and federal law at the same level. Now that he needs some sort of justification for blowing town to Moscow he uses it to say “see, I really did try to tell them!”. Or, you know, not really, since we can read it now.

And he really, really, really wanted to “prove” that Obama = Dictator.

In case you want to wade through this…

This document provides an unclassified overview of NSA’s implementation of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Section 702. It is also entered into the Federal Register (regulations.gov; docket PCLOB-[no phone numbers allowed]) to satisfy PCLOB request for information to inform their upcoming report and to be more transparent to the public.

100 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:04:46pm

They really should have thought this out better

101 simoom  May 29, 2014 12:05:24pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

Your breath, don’t hold it.

Sheesh, I just glanced at it again and looks like NBC updated two sentences. Instead of quoting the now released actual e-mail they’ve left the background source terrible summary of it.

102 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:05:49pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

Your breath, don’t hold it.

That’s for sure. If anything is going to happen, it will be everyone that rode this horse will forget they did and slink away like nothing ever happened.

Especially all the dudebros.

Edward who? No, never heard of him.

103 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 12:06:21pm

re: #98 Feline Fearless Leader

They consider your data their preciousssss.

Comes from living in a dank cavern for years living on raw fish.
;)

And the occasional goblin.

104 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:07:38pm

Alas! The email Edward Snowden sent to the NSA has been released! And he’s asking about the chain of federal laws and regulations and which ones take precedent.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

105 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:07:50pm
106 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:08:26pm

You know…I am learning more about all this here at LGF than what any media will put up.

The Lizards be good journalists. Take that Greenwald.

107 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:08:26pm

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

108 coin operated  May 29, 2014 12:10:02pm

Stole thousands of classified documents, but took not one email to back up his claim of ‘sent his concerns’?

Snowden is a special kind of stupid.

109 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 12:10:16pm

latest wingnut meme:

Did Woodrow Wilson Destroy the American Presidency?

according to this purveyor of fabricated history, strong presidents with an agenda didn’t exist before ww

Wilson held that it was the responsibility of the president to break the gridlock caused by the Constitution’s separation of powers and unleash the power of the federal government to restrain the barons of industry

um, you mean theodore roosevelt, moron. your grade for american history 1890 through WWI is an ‘F’

The president would no longer be indebted to a political party for his selection, for presidential nominees would be chosen through primaries and the nominee would then impose his will on his party, not the other way around. Wilson’s chief executive was free to be as big a man as he wanted to be, with his power no longer anchored in the Constitution or in his party, but rooted in his personal charisma; presidential effectiveness would hinge on his personal attributes, not on any formal grant of power

“interesting” theory. as far as relevance or accuracy is concerned, george washington, james k polk, and abraham lincoln are laughing at you

Stephen F. Knott is a Professor of National Security Affairs at the United States Naval War College

i recommend a good basic book on american history, for starters, professor knott. for myself, i always try to bone up a bit on the subject before opening my yap

110 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:11:12pm

I just flipped on MSNBC and they are going to be showing some more of the interview that wasn’t shown yet in a few minutes. Just in case anyone wants to check it out.

111 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:11:13pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

He finds drugs/gay porn/Pussy Riot CDs and kicks him out.

112 b.d.  May 29, 2014 12:11:40pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

That scares me too. If Putin tires of Snowie, the USA will get the blame no matter what happens to him. What downside is there for Putin to disappear Snowden?

113 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:11:51pm

re: #110 ObserverArt

I just flipped on MSNBC and they are going to be showing some more of the interview that wasn’t shown yet in a few minutes. Just in case anyone wants to check it out.

I’ll wait for the graphic novel.

114 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:12:36pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

He could suffer an unfortunate accident while inspecting an antique bombard while on a tour of the Kremlin.
//

115 simoom  May 29, 2014 12:14:07pm

Aaaand, Mashable somehow casts the released e-mail as evidence in favor of Snowden’s claims:

mashable.com

During his first ever American TV interview, Edward Snowden told NBC’s Brian Williams that he had tried to go through internal channels to raise concerns about the NSA surveillance programs before he leaked stolen documents.

On Thursday, the NSA released the email, confirming the claim months after it said that there was no evidence Snowden ever raised concerns with anyone at the spy agency.

116 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:14:23pm

re: #114 Feline Fearless Leader

He could suffer an unfortunate accident while inspecting an antique bombard while on a tour of the Kremlin.
//

Gotch’yer gun right here:

Image: 800px-Moscow_July_2011-10a.jpg

117 ericblair  May 29, 2014 12:14:23pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful?

If he keeps being a good boy I imagine they’ll let him stay in peace, but he shouldn’t count on any kind of government pension. However, he does have sensitive knowledge about what he did and didn’t tell the Russian government and Russian intelligence methods. So, if he gets frisky he might end up in prison on some bullshit charge (the conviction rate is about 99%), or might end up in an unfortunate car accident (which might happen anyway given Russian driving habits).

118 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:15:37pm

re: #106 ObserverArt

You know…I am learning more about all this here at LGF than what any media will put up.

The Lizards be good journalists. Take that Greenwald.

Indeed. And unlike GG we actually report on the goings-on in the Brazilian favelas, even though he could practically see them from the grounds of his guarded estate if he gave a damn and he can definitely smell the teargas. I have actually been in a Brazilian favela, quite a few times in fact. I wonder if GG has?

119 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:16:04pm

re: #117 ericblair

If he keeps being a good boy I imagine they’ll let him stay in peace, but he shouldn’t count on any kind of government pension. However, he does have sensitive knowledge about what he did and didn’t tell the Russian government and Russian intelligence methods. So, if he gets frisky he might end up in prison on some bullshit charge (the conviction rate is about 99%), or might end up in an unfortunate car accident (which might happen anyway given Russian driving habits).

Or just catch a cold after eating a stack of pancakes.
//

120 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 12:16:21pm

re: #100 Kragar

They really should have thought this out better

[Embedded content]

121 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:16:49pm

re: #115 simoom

Aaaand, Mashable somehow casts the released e-mail as evidence in favor of Snowden’s claims:

mashable.com

What a joke. Some dumb email dated well after he stole documents and was in contact with Greenwald and Poitras. Said email simply asking “civics questions.”

122 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:17:04pm

re: #114 Feline Fearless Leader

He could suffer an unfortunate accident while inspecting an antique bombard while on a tour of the Kremlin.
//

The video rights would be very lucrative if Putin can arrange an exclusive.

123 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:18:01pm
124 Shazam  May 29, 2014 12:18:04pm

Washington Whiteys sort of has a ring to it. Tweet @SenatorReid to show your #WhiteyPride.

125 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:19:19pm
126 Jay in Oregon  May 29, 2014 12:19:58pm

re: #71 Charles Johnson

Everyone knows that you don’t need to keep copies of CYA/whistleblowing emails when you’re convinced that organization is breaking the law.

Because of reasons.

127 sagehen  May 29, 2014 12:20:31pm

re: #46 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Holy shit! There’s an Area 52!?!11?!

It’s the Stargate Slash Fanfiction archive.

area52hkh.net

128 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 12:21:36pm

BUT SNOWDEN DID SAVE COPIES OF THE EMAILS!!!! IT’S JUST THAT TEH EBIL GUBMIT LOCKED HIS EMAIL AT THE SAME TIME THEY CANCELLED HIS PASSPORT!!!!!!!

129 Shazam  May 29, 2014 12:23:20pm

Dear Government,

I’m going to need your network passwords to do some, um, work on the network. Also, what is up with statutes and stuff?

Thanks,
Ed

130 Bulworth  May 29, 2014 12:24:49pm

dog philospher

according to this purveyor of fabricated history, strong presidents with an agenda didn’t exist before ww

But then came Ronald Reagan and Ronald Reagan was the strongest and most heroic and greatest presidency ever and that was so awesome, why does Obama suck so bad he’s weak and dithers?!??!

131 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:25:47pm

Dear U.S. Government,

I did not know that being a spy meant I had to spy.

What’s up with that?

Thanks,
Ed

132 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:27:00pm
133 Bulworth  May 29, 2014 12:27:12pm
Wilson held that it was the responsibility of the president to break the gridlock caused by the Constitution’s separation of powers and unleash the power of the federal government to restrain the barons of industry

Yes, the barons of industry needed to be totally Free to form monopolies and use labor as they saw fit without any checks or restraints because Liberty. ///

134 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 12:28:25pm

re: #132 Kragar

Wow, that dudebro(ette?) is a special kind of CT stupid.

135 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:29:09pm

re: #132 Kragar

You’re dealing with an impervious True Believer. Enjoy the exercise, but don’t expect any breakthroughs.

136 Shazam  May 29, 2014 12:29:49pm

The Snowden says it, I believe it, that settles it.

137 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 12:29:59pm

re: #100 Kragar

Some hashtags are meant to be hijacked, the way some faces are meant to be punched.

138 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:30:41pm

Next on The Intercept - the Snowden emails that neither he nor the NSA have copies of.
//

139 TedStriker  May 29, 2014 12:30:42pm

re: #69 Kragar

Free on torrents most likely

IIRC, the e-book torrent was out there within hours of the book’s release.

140 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:31:47pm
141 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:32:49pm

re: #132 Kragar

@Kragar_LGF do you expect him to acknowledge that he has those emails?
I’d bet he has them. He doesn’t need to prove it to me or anyone

No better example of the fact that facts do not in fact matter.

Fox built a whole channel on this truism. Others have followed.

142 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 12:33:13pm

Don’t forget. This email was dated 4/8/13, and Snowden had been working for the NSA through Dell Corp previously and stealing documents then, also.

So, why did he wait until April 2013 to question what he was doing?

As someone pointed out above, he had already been in contact with Poitras and Godwald.

143 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:33:14pm

You think if emails existed naming specific people at the NSA who had ignored the “scandal”, Greenwald would have hesitated for one minute before naming them and making them objects of public humiliation and scorn?

144 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:34:40pm

re: #140 Gus

What NBC News said about alleged email.

Nice journalism there. After attempting to make blaring headlines they them declare that they will do the FOIA request and do the actual investigative work. Must be more of that “new” journalism as championed by the Great GG.

145 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:35:53pm

re: #144 Feline Fearless Leader

Nice journalism there. After attempting to make blaring headlines they them declare that they will do the FOIA request and do the actual investigative work. Must be more of that “new” journalism as championed by the Great GG.

Which is GG and not NBC since that’s from last night’s transcript. That’s why I was laughing at GG because the way NBC reported it, it looked like one big bore already.

146 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:36:15pm
147 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:36:20pm

re: #144 Feline Fearless Leader

Nice journalism there. After attempting to make blaring headlines they them declare that they will do the FOIA request and do the actual investigative work. Must be more of that “new” journalism as championed by the Great GG.

How many lies before you’re a liar? is the number the same for New Journalists and Old Journalists?

148 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:36:30pm

Wait, NBC revising.

149 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:36:46pm
150 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:36:53pm

151 Lidane  May 29, 2014 12:38:10pm

re: #143 Kragar

You think if emails existed naming specific people at the NSA who had ignored the “scandal”, Greenwald would have hesitated for one minute before naming them and making them objects of public humiliation and scorn?

EXACTLY. Those emails would have been some of the first stuff released. Naming officials would have taken the heat off Snowden since it would have shifted focus to those NSA people that “ignored” him.

152 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:38:55pm

So, the MSNBC Cycle ladies thought Snowden put a nice human face on the whole thing which should make the doubters at least listen to him more now. And, Snowden did it so when he comes back to America the public will pressure the government to not be too harsh at that nice boy.

153 raina  May 29, 2014 12:42:11pm

re: #94 ericblair

I’m thinking it was an honest question. The material he asks about was confusing and looked like it put EOs and federal law at the same level. Now that he needs some sort of justification for blowing town to Moscow he uses it to say “see, I really did try to tell them!”. Or, you know, not really, since we can read it now.

Possibly, but the fact that the email is dated April 13, after he was already in contact with Greenwald, makes it a bit odd.

154 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:43:35pm

re: #151 Lidane

EXACTLY. Those emails would have been some of the first stuff released. Naming officials would have taken the heat off Snowden since it would have shifted focus to those NSA people that “ignored” him.

Would have been a powerful tool in the early days of all this, when Congress was frothing at the mouth over the allegations and calling for investigations. Giving them a ready list of witnesses to drag on the carpet and explain why Snowden’s allegations/concerns were not addressed would have done a great deal to further their stated goal of bringing down the NSA’s intel programs.

155 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:43:51pm

re: #151 Lidane

EXACTLY. Those emails would have been some of the first stuff released. Naming officials would have taken the heat off Snowden since it would have shifted focus to those NSA people that “ignored” him.

Bingo

156 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:44:53pm
157 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 12:46:13pm

re: #153 raina

Possibly, but the fact that the email is dated April 13, after he was already in contact with Greenwald, makes it a bit odd.

[Embedded content]

I am so glad David Corn is questioning this BS.

It’s just a matter of time before Snowjob and Godwald are exposed for the frauds they really are.

158 ericblair  May 29, 2014 12:46:31pm

re: #153 raina

Possibly, but the fact that the email is dated April 13, after he was already in contact with Greenwald, makes it a bit odd.

[Embedded content]

You’re right and it does seem a bit odd, and I wouldn’t be horribly shocked if this was some sort of pre-CYA maneuver. However, I’ll stick with what we know until there’s evidence otherwise.

159 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:47:06pm

Really, there’s only two plausible explanations for why Snowden has not produced the emails he exchanged or at list of those he contacted: He never tried to raise a flag or he’s such a rank amateur that he never kept any evidence of his whistleblowing. Neither of which paints a very pretty picture of this “spy.”

160 Kragar  May 29, 2014 12:47:19pm
161 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:48:06pm

Snowden could have just sent the NSA an email asking them “what’s your favorite color” and then one could technically say, “yes, Snowden did contact the NSA.”

162 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 12:48:38pm

re: #161 Gus

Snowden could have just sent the NSA an email asking them “what’s your favorite color” and then one could technically say, “yes, Snowden did contact the NSA.”

That’s probably the email he sent to Obama…

163 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:48:53pm

re: #158 ericblair

You’re right and it does seem a bit odd, and I wouldn’t be horribly shocked if this was some sort of pre-CYA maneuver. However, I’ll stick with what we know until there’s evidence otherwise.

This is a totally plausible explanation. By that time, he was well into the Greenwald axis and there’s really no doubt that they were discussing how he should cover his ass, since he planned to flee the country.

164 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:49:08pm

re: #157 Justanotherhuman

I am so glad David Corn is questioning this BS.

It’s just a matter of time before Snowjob and Godwald are exposed for the frauds they really are.

Corn is a good junk yard dog. Open that fence…

165 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 12:49:25pm

As amateurish as both Snowden and Greenwald have been throughout this, I’m amazed they’ve snookered so many people who are allegedly skeptical by nature, journalists and techno-libertarians alike.

166 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:50:24pm

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

167 Lidane  May 29, 2014 12:51:30pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

That’s a first.

168 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:51:30pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

Well, it was all worth it then.

169 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 12:51:33pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

Who?

: )

170 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 12:51:53pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

Probably trying to figure out how to spin this latest setback.

171 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:52:34pm

re: #165 Rev_Arthur_Belling

As amateurish as both Snowden and Greenwald have been throughout this, I’m amazed they’ve snookered so many people who are allegedly skeptical by nature, journalists and techno-libertarians alike.

General theme I’ve noticed is that most of those who have bought into this BS fall into two categories: Conspiracy theorists who wanted a reason to believe that their fears about the government were justified, and those critics of this administration who wanted a reason to believe that it was “no different” than the last one.

172 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 12:52:49pm

Hey dudebros!

173 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:53:08pm

re: #170 Bubblehead II

Probably trying to figure out how to spin this latest setback.

Or find a new shiny thing to throw to take their attention off it.

174 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 12:54:00pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

needs a Gus graphic: “Where’s Greenwaldo?”

175 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 12:54:32pm
176 lawhawk  May 29, 2014 12:54:43pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Watching Snowden’s snowjob retconning fall apart on the slightest bit of scrutiny would tend to do that.

The first question anyone with a pulse should be asking Snowden is if he sent emails indicating his willingness to blow the whistle on conduct is where’s his copy of the sent email. To whom were the emails sent, etc.

That the only email is a generic email that was sent after he was already in contact with Greenwald indicates that this yet another attempt to CYA, and that Snowden was never about engaging in whistleblowing, but about blowing up the NSA’s intel gathering means and methods by revealing programs, tactics, and sources.

The overwhelming majority of the documents revealed thus far have little to nothing to do with identifying violations of US law (that the NSA was violating FISA or was running amok as a rogue agency and putting US citizens under surveillance willy nilly, etc.) and more to do with revealing how the NSA operates in conjunction with other agencies, proposed sharing of intel, and revealing details of programs like PRISM.

177 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 12:54:54pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has gone silent on Twitter.

Youtube Video

178 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:55:02pm

re: #157 Justanotherhuman

I am so glad David Corn is questioning this BS.

It’s just a matter of time before Snowjob and Godwald are exposed for the frauds they really are.

With any luck, their only support will be from the fake moon landing/bigfoot end of the conspiracy culture in a couple of years.

179 Bulworth  May 29, 2014 12:55:19pm
Why did #Snowden send such a rudimentary question to NSA gen. couns. at a time he was fully into Operation Greenwald?— David Corn

Doesnt matter you bootlicking lickspittle its all about NSA ASSAULT!!1

180 Gus  May 29, 2014 12:55:34pm

re: #174 Backwoods_Sleuth

needs a Gus graphic: “Where’s Greenwaldo?”

Perhaps later. I think he’s still in Russia so he might be sleeping.

181 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 12:56:21pm

re: #173 Targetpractice

Or find a new shiny thing to throw to take their attention off it.

True. Probably searching the doc cache for his next release over at the intercept.

182 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 12:56:21pm

re: #180 Gus

Perhaps later. I think he’s still in Russia so he might be sleeping.

almost midnight in Moscow…the day is just getting started there!

183 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:56:50pm

Speaking of Greenwald, wasn’t he supposedly releasing a list of “victims” of the NSA’s spying programs?

184 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 12:57:00pm

re: #170 Bubblehead II

Probably trying to figure out how to spin this latest setback.

Busy painting invasion stripes on his torso in order to begin a week long rant about American spying and imperialistic interference in Europe 70 years ago because they didn’t understand a poor Austrian who was simply trying to improve Bavaria and Germany’s position in the world.
/

185 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:57:14pm

We’ll know we’ve won when GG gets his own series on the History Channel.
Glenn Greenwald, Media Lord of the Flat Earth.

186 b.d.  May 29, 2014 12:57:32pm

RELEASE THE WHOLE 4 HOURS OF THE INTERVIEW NBC! THERE’S GOT TO BE SOMETHING TRUTHFUL IN THERE SOMEWHERE!

187 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 12:57:41pm

The NSA should ask Dell and Booz Hamilton to repay Snowjob’s salary as well.

US Justice Department sues technology company CA Inc. for allegedly overcharging on government contract - @Reuters
Read more on reuters.com

188 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 12:57:45pm

re: #175 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Either saying it “doesn’t matter” or saying that they believe he’s got the paper trail to prove his whistleblowing, but they’re convinced without seeing it that it exists.

189 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 12:58:09pm

re: #184 Feline Fearless Leader

Busy painting invasion stripes on his torso in order to begin a week long rant about American spying and imperialistic interference in Europe 70 years ago because they didn’t understand a poor Austrian who was simply trying to improve Bavaria and Germany’s position in the world.
/

He’s joining the Lubbock Republican Party?

190 Eventual Carrion  May 29, 2014 12:58:23pm

re: #137 AntonSirius

Some hashtags are meant to be hijacked, the way some faces are meant to be punched.

And some people are like slinkys. Not very useful but fun to push down the steps.

191 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 12:58:25pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

General theme I’ve noticed is that most of those who have bought into this BS fall into two categories: Conspiracy theorists who wanted a reason to believe that their fears about the government were justified, and those critics of this administration who wanted a reason to believe that it was “no different” than the last one.

That’s been my observation, although there is a subset of them who are real journalists who have become convinced that this administration has it in for the press, and they look at Snowwald as sort of a 21st century Woodward and Bernstein saga. That’s a small subset, and I know some of them personally. I generally just keep my mouth shut when they start talking or posting about Snowwald.

192 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 12:59:21pm

Looking at the email exchange also makes the addressing look weird. That’s a very ordinary problem to raise with the Office of the General Counsel. Assuming they have a serious legal organization, that sort of micro thing gets answered by the first lawyer in your chain of command. Could be NSA just has a very ‘flat’ wiring diagram.

193 b.d.  May 29, 2014 12:59:52pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Speaking of Greenwald, wasn’t he supposedly releasing a list of “victims” of the NSA’s spying programs?

I’m imagining Glenn writing out that list of every citizen longhand, ala Steve Martin in The Jerk writing all of those refund checks.

194 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:00:15pm

re: #161 Gus

Snowden could have just sent the NSA an email asking them “what’s your favorite color” and then one could technically say, “yes, Snowden did contact the NSA.”

‘Teddy Brosevelt’ lol

195 Dr. Matt  May 29, 2014 1:00:16pm

I wonder if Snowden had exploding pens and a laser beam watch when he was a spy?

196 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:00:24pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Speaking of Greenwald, wasn’t he supposedly releasing a list of “victims” of the NSA’s spying programs?

“I released it already. Its not my fault you didn’t see it. Go find it yourself!” BLOCKED

197 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:00:51pm

re: #194 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

‘Teddy Brosevelt’ lol

But the picture is of Sherman

198 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 1:01:34pm

re: #195 Dr. Matt

I wonder if Snowden had exploding pens and a laser beam watch when he was a spy?

I wonder if he made laser noises, “Pew, Pew, Pew!” Or light saber sounds with his flashlight.

199 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 1:01:40pm

re: #176 lawhawk

Watching Snowden’s snowjob retconning fall apart on the slightest bit of scrutiny would tend to do that.

The first question anyone with a pulse should be asking Snowden is if he sent emails indicating his willingness to blow the whistle on conduct is where’s his copy of the sent email. To whom were the emails sent, etc.

That the only email is a generic email that was sent after he was already in contact with Greenwald indicates that this yet another attempt to CYA, and that Snowden was never about engaging in whistleblowing, but about blowing up the NSA’s intel gathering means and methods by revealing programs, tactics, and sources.

The overwhelming majority of the documents revealed thus far have little to nothing to do with identifying violations of US law (that the NSA was violating FISA or was running amok as a rogue agency and putting US citizens under surveillance willy nilly, etc.) and more to do with revealing how the NSA operates in conjunction with other agencies, proposed sharing of intel, and revealing details of programs like PRISM.

He has more or less admitted he just did not like the programs the NSA was running. He knew enough about them to think how they could be used for evil (in his mind) intentions. Not that any were being abused, but how they could be. He then decided he would take it all down not concerning himself with anything else but being the hero stopping the evil. He knew that if he framed how far these programs could be abused right up front everyone from Greenwald to those suspicious of their own shadows would bite.

200 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:01:51pm
201 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 29, 2014 1:02:17pm

re: #182 Backwoods_Sleuth

almost midnight in Moscow…the day is just getting started there!

Youtube Video

202 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:03:01pm

re: #195 Dr. Matt

I wonder if Snowden had exploding pens and a laser beam watch when he was a spy?

The pens leaked more than they exploded, and the laser was just an LED on his keychain

203 Bulworth  May 29, 2014 1:03:30pm

b.d.

RELEASE THE WHOLE 4 HOURS OF THE INTERVIEW NBC! THERE’S GOT TO BE SOMETHING TRUTHFUL IN THERE SOMEWHERE!

—-

What R they hiding?

204 jaunte  May 29, 2014 1:03:54pm
205 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 1:04:57pm

Our govt has been busy righting real wrongs. Crooks everywhere.

2 former Army soldiers plead guilty to accepting approximately $250,000 in bribes from contractors in Afghanistan - @AP
Read more on bigstory.ap.org

20m
Federal judge declines to dismiss US government lawsuit accusing Novartis of civil fraud for having conducted 2 illegal kickback schemes to boost sales of drugs covered by Medicare and Medicaid - @Reuters

206 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:05:16pm
207 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 1:06:42pm

The Britain/France/Israel alliance also used invasion stripes when they ganged up on Egypt in 1956. Theirs were black (actually very dark blue) and yellow.

Model of a French Navy F4U-7 Corsair in the 1956 Suez Crisis markings, including the rather garish invasion stripes:
The British had carrier based jets by this time, but the French did not. The Corsairs were very effective by most accounts.

208 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:07:11pm

29 May 2014 - Statement in response to recent allegations regarding contact with the NSA Office of General Counsel.

NSA has now explained that they have found one email inquiry by Edward Snowden to the Office of General Counsel asking for an explanation of some material that was in a training course he had just completed. The e-mail did not raise allegations or concerns about wrongdoing or abuse, but posed a legal question that the Office of General Counsel addressed. There was not additional follow-up noted. The e-mail will be released later today.

There are numerous avenues that Mr. Snowden could have used to raise other concerns or whistleblower allegations. We have searched for additional indications of outreach from him in those areas and to date have not discovered any engagements related to his claims.

209 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 1:09:58pm

As Bill Bennett, one who gets the medium, noted recently: “After reading the comic of The Iliad, then I read the children’s edition of The Iliad, and then I read The Iliad.”

yes, that bill bennett - the compulsive gambler who writes book instructing the young on morality and culture

alicublog.blogspot.com

210 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:10:49pm

re: #208 Gus

29 May 2014 - Statement in response to recent allegations regarding contact with the NSA Office of General Counsel.

See, now if it were me, I’d take it as the perfect time to say “YOU’RE LYING!” and produce the emails proving it.

If such emails every really existed that is.

211 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 1:10:56pm

re: #208 Gus

29 May 2014 - Statement in response to recent allegations regarding contact with the NSA Office of General Counsel.

This statement being a perfect opportunity now for Eddie to jump up and say “NOT TRUE” and then produce the papertrail to prove it. Instead, I expect that Greenwald will pick a fight with one of his critics, Snowden will stay silent until the next interview, and the dudebros will mutter something about how he didn’t raise alarms because he didn’t want to be “disappeared” and pat themselves on the back for believing their own bullshit.

212 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:12:04pm

re: #211 Targetpractice

This statement being a perfect opportunity now for Eddie to jump up and say “NOT TRUE” and then produce the papertrail to prove it. Instead, I expect that Greenwald will pick a fight with one of his critics, Snowden will stay silent until the next interview, and the dudebros will mutter something about how he didn’t raise alarms because he didn’t want to be “disappeared” and pat themselves on the back for believing their own bullshit.

So basically Greenwald will now resort to being Ken Ham.

213 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 1:12:32pm

re: #207 Shiplord Kirel

Been reading the Wikipedia page on Gamal Nasser, with some side trips over to other pages on various events and other ME political figures in that time period.

Anyone thinking the ME is open to any sort of “simple” solution is seriously deluding themselves. I just wish the various US Presidential administrations would finally learn that being the “key” in achieving ME peace is also essentially delusional.

en.wikipedia.org

214 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 1:12:36pm

re: #212 Gus

So basically Greenwald will now resort to being Ken Ham.

“Now”?

215 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:12:47pm

re: #211 Targetpractice

This statement being a perfect opportunity now for Eddie to jump up and say “NOT TRUE” and then produce the papertrail to prove it. Instead, I expect that Greenwald will pick a fight with one of his critics, Snowden will stay silent until the next interview, and the dudebros will mutter something about how he didn’t raise alarms because he didn’t want to be “disappeared” and pat themselves on the back for believing their own bullshit.

“Of course the NSA is going to say they didn’t find anything.”

If only they had had some sort of inside man at the NSA at the time who had access to those emails.

216 piratedan  May 29, 2014 1:13:09pm

re: #165 Rev_Arthur_Belling

they’re in Fox Mulder mode, they want to believe……

217 JustMark  May 29, 2014 1:15:47pm

re: #207 Shiplord Kirel

Always thought the Corsair was one of the coolest planes from WWII.

218 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 1:16:39pm

re: #209 dog philosopher

As Bill Bennett, one who gets the medium, noted recently: “After reading the comic of The Iliad, then I read the children’s edition of The Iliad, and then I read The Iliad.”

yes, that bill bennett - the compulsive gambler who writes book instructing the young on morality and culture

alicublog.blogspot.com

Is he still looking for the part in there about the horse?
;p

219 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 1:16:53pm

re: #215 Kragar

“Of course the NSA is going to say they didn’t find anything.”

If only they had had some sort of inside man at the NSA at the time who had access to those emails.

[tapeplaying]
“And as always, If you, or any of your Dudebro team are caught in contradictions or outright Lies, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions”

[ /tapeplaying]

220 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 1:17:11pm

re: #215 Kragar

“Of course the NSA is going to say they didn’t find anything.”

If only they had had some sort of inside man at the NSA at the time who had access to those emails.

I was about to say that it was either “He didn’t raise an alarm!” or “They’re lying about not finding anything!” Either way, it’s a perfect opportunity for him to set the record straight, yet I doubt that he can or will rise to the occasion. Here we are, a year later, still watching as the paper-thin vein of mystery around the man named “Edward Snowden” peals off to reveal the opportunistic little weasel beneath.

221 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 1:19:00pm
222 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:20:09pm

re: #201 Sergey Romanov

I owe you a downding for that Marlene Dietrich vid yesterday. At first I enjoyed it, but it came to life as an earworm so bad, I had to send an ear robin after it

Youtube Video

which wasn’t much better, so I sent an ear cat in

Youtube Video

which was worse, so I sent in a dog

Youtube Video

That’s working so far, but what should I send in next?

223 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 1:20:33pm

In some ways, I do think Snowden was serious when he said that he didn’t expect to get stuck in Russia. I’m becoming convinced that he had this fantasy where he retired to some swanky villa in Venezuela, Equador, or Bolivia, trading the secrets he’d stolen for a life of luxury on the local government’s dime. He didn’t expect instead to get stuck in a hovel in BFE, Russia, a virtual prisoner of the FSB.

224 William Barnett-Lewis  May 29, 2014 1:23:55pm

More of the same old bs.

IF he were a whistle blower, he’d have done what Ellsberg did and run off to Cuba… Oh, wait! HE stayed while under a far worse presidency. Snowflake was just a useful idiot for Assange & the rest of the Russian intel apparatus & he can rot in a Russian apartment or a jail cell. Either one is fine by me.

225 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 29, 2014 1:24:11pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

That cat you sent is all sorts of trouble!
Youtube Video

226 b.d.  May 29, 2014 1:24:28pm

lol

The click is calling me!!!!!!

227 Jack Burton  May 29, 2014 1:25:52pm

re: #226 b.d.

lol

[Embedded content]

The click is calling me!!!!!!

A Broken clock…

228 kirkspencer  May 29, 2014 1:26:14pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

I owe you a downding for that Marlene Dietrich vid yesterday. At first I enjoyed it, but it came to life as an earworm so bad, I had to send an ear robin after it

[Embedded content]

That’s working so far, but what should I send in next?

A badger?

229 Bear  May 29, 2014 1:26:32pm

re: #217 JustMark

For me it is the P-38. The scream as it passed overhead. WOW!

230 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 1:27:11pm

I’ll bet the stores have run out of tinfoil in some places.

And leave the cats out of it.

231 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 1:27:40pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

I owe you a downding for that Marlene Dietrich vid yesterday. At first I enjoyed it, but it came to life as an earworm so bad, I had to send an ear robin after it

[…]

That’s working so far, but what should I send in next?

If all else fails, it’s time for the baby monkey riding on a pig.

Youtube Video

232 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:27:41pm

re: #225 Sergey Romanov

That cat you sent is all sorts of trouble!
[Embedded content]

Oh dear! I better get another dog

Youtube Video

233 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:28:17pm

P-51 was hands down the best performer of WWII. Some would argue the Spitfire but there were other aspects to the P-51 like a large cockpit and better landing gear positions.

234 jaunte  May 29, 2014 1:29:30pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

The sailors say “Brandy.”

235 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:30:50pm

re: #234 jaunte

The sailors say “Brandy.”

Hey, it was all in fun right up ‘til then….

Youtube Video

236 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:32:32pm

Be careful, I have the Seekers open in another tab…..

237 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 29, 2014 1:32:36pm

re: #234 jaunte

The sailors say “Brandy.”

Brandy?
Youtube Video

238 William Barnett-Lewis  May 29, 2014 1:35:50pm

re: #217 JustMark

Always thought the Corsair was one of the coolest planes from WWII.

Nice, but nothing compared to this one that was, alas, too late to make an impact as the gun armed P-61E model it was supposed to be…

239 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:36:04pm
240 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 1:36:43pm

Greenwald’s retweeting attacks on Michael Kinsley (still), but so far ignoring the fact that his claims about Snowden are collapsing.

241 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 1:37:21pm

the weevils what man haz done live on after him, while the grubs are oft interred wif his bone

242 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 1:38:43pm

re: #191 Rev_Arthur_Belling

there is a subset of them who are real journalists who have become convinced that this administration has it in for the press

Well, they’re right. Obama’s made his contempt for the joke that is Beltway journalism pretty clear since he took office.

Doesn’t mean he’s reading their emails though. In fact, it points pretty directly to him believing Beltway journos produce nothing worth reading.

243 JustMark  May 29, 2014 1:38:54pm

Heritage Flyover JSOH Andrews AFB 2008

Not the best quality, but one of my favorite pics from the Joint Services Open House at Andrews AFB 2008

244 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 1:38:56pm

Time to fumigate my head and fix a couple bikes.

245 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:39:17pm

re: #240 Charles Johnson

Greenwald’s retweeting attacks on Michael Kinsley (still), but so far ignoring the fact that his claims about Snowden are collapsing.

246 klys  May 29, 2014 1:39:29pm

re: #239 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Well, of course. Because he killed men too.

(Ignoring the part where his rage at other men stemmed from the fact that he believed they were getting the sex he wasn’t.)

It’s one of those weeks where I weep for humanity.

247 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:40:09pm

re: #244 wrenchwench

Time to fumigate my head and fix a couple bikes.

Do you wear a helmet when you fix bikes?

//

248 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 1:41:17pm

re: #233 Gus

P-51 was hands down the best performer of WWII. Some would argue the Spitfire but there were other aspects to the P-51 like a large cockpit and better landing gear positions.

But nothing is quite so much fun as reading about the WORST aircraft of WW2. In their limited defense, most of them were obsolete before the war even started, but were pressed into service anyhow.

RBS

249 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 1:41:45pm

re: #246 klys

Well, of course. Because he killed men too.

(Ignoring the part where his rage at other men stemmed from the fact that he believed they were getting the sex he wasn’t.)

It’s one of those weeks where I weep for humanity.

Right, if you read the manfiesto. He rages at men especially black and Hispanic men who he feels are unworthy of the sex and women he feels entitled to.

250 Kragar  May 29, 2014 1:41:59pm

re: #238 William Barnett-Lewis

Nice, but nothing compared to this one that was, alas, too late to make an impact as the gun armed P-61E model it was supposed to be…

[Embedded image]

Speaking of WWII planes that came too late..

251 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 1:43:30pm

This is genuine whistleblowing, not something made out of paranoia.

Justice Department Sues CA for False Claims on Government Contract

online.wsj.com

“The Justice Department alleges CA, formerly known as Computer Associates International Inc., gave government contracting officers incomplete and inaccurate information during contract extensions negotiations, including failing to disclose higher discounts it was offering to commercial customers. The federal complaint also alleges CA failed since 2002 to pass on those discounts to the government or erred on calculations, resulting in the government’s overpaying.

“Under the terms of the contract, the Justice Department said CA was required to monitor those discounts and apply them to the government’s contract.

(snip)

“Some of the allegations were filed in a lawsuit originally brought by Dani Shemesh, a former employee of CA Israel Ltd., under the whistleblower provisions of the False Claims Act, which permit private parties to sue on behalf of the government and to share in any recovery, the Justice Department said. ” More

252 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 1:44:31pm

What I wonder though is when enough will be enough and legislators will finally start standing up to the gun lobby who through their allies in the media want to put the conversation everything but easy access to weapons. You’re not allowed to say “You know maybe we should be careful in seeing who gets possession of these things” without someone like LaPierre going on and accusing the person of wanting to take all guns and replicate the Holocaust. It just sucks. It’s a culture of fear to discuss the elephant in the room because elected officials know that if they talk about this issue, there’s going to be a ton of money going their opponent’s way.

253 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 1:45:01pm
254 JustMark  May 29, 2014 1:46:03pm

re: #238 William Barnett-Lewis

Nice, but nothing compared to this one that was, alas, too late to make an impact as the gun armed P-61E model it was supposed to be…

[Embedded image]

Read this in Jr. HS - made me a big fan of the B-25.

Link

255 Flying Squirrel Girl  May 29, 2014 1:46:09pm

Cute video alert!

kplctv.com

256 JustMark  May 29, 2014 1:47:02pm

re: #250 Kragar

Speaking of WWII planes that came to late..

[Embedded image]

Loved reading Yeager’s account of shooting a 262 down… better to be lucky sometimes.

257 Rightwingconspirator  May 29, 2014 1:47:28pm

re: #252 HappyWarrior

What I wonder though is when enough will be enough and legislators will finally start standing up to the gun lobby who through their allies in the media want to put the conversation everything but easy access to weapons. You’re not allowed to say “You know maybe we should be careful in seeing who gets possession of these things” without someone like LaPierre going on and accusing the person of wanting to take all guns and replicate the Holocaust. It just sucks. It’s a culture of fear to discuss the elephant in the room because elected officials know that if they talk about this issue, there’s going to be a ton of money going their opponent’s way.

Working on that…

258 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 1:47:41pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

Your only choice is to burn it all down and start fresh:

Youtube Video

259 Gus  May 29, 2014 1:47:45pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

The 16 questions @NBCNews should have asked Edward Snowden but weren’t allowed by First Look Media.

260 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 1:48:03pm

This talk about aviation though gets me thinking about how brave and possibly even to a degree nuts the early pioneers of aviation were.

261 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 1:48:15pm

i was just thinking about the va and the summer scandals season…scandals should feature dames

262 Minor_L  May 29, 2014 1:48:29pm

Marcy Wheeler is, unsurprisingly, trying to find something bad about the email exchange. IT SHOWS THAT THE NSA WAS TRAINING THEIR PEOPLE INCORRECTLY ABOUT THE HIERARCHY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

It’s sad, honestly. (Almost as sad and pathetic as John Cole’s attacks on Charles the other night.)

263 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 1:49:14pm

re: #257 Rightwingconspirator

Working on that…

Good deal. Hoping for progress.

264 A Mom Anon  May 29, 2014 1:49:57pm

re: #252 HappyWarrior

You would have thought the sight of a bunch of 1st graders being shot to death would have moved things forward. If that doesn’t do it, the only other thing I can imagine that MIGHT do it would be for them to personally have someone’s brains splattered all over their expensive suits. And even then, I have my doubts.

I have friends who currently live in Wales (and have lived all over most of Europe their whole lives) that are totally freaked out by how stupid we are about this, health care and education. I honestly don’t know what to say back to them anymore because there’s nothing I can say.

265 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 1:50:11pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

That’s exactly how a thorough investigative interview would and should be done.

Instead, we got a “star hack” from NBC who doesn’t even lay out the relationship NBC has with First Look and the various players.

266 kirkspencer  May 29, 2014 1:50:28pm

re: #233 Gus

P-51 was hands down the best performer of WWII. Some would argue the Spitfire but there were other aspects to the P-51 like a large cockpit and better landing gear positions.

Depends on what criteria you use for “best performer”, to include year of comparison. In the late war the Corsair, Lightning, and Mustang each had areas of superiority.

267 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 1:51:37pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Those sound like questions a “Journalist” would ask…..

RBS

268 Jack Burton  May 29, 2014 1:51:40pm

re: #243 JustMark

They should have had an F-86 Sabre between the Mustang and the Phantom.

269 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 1:52:41pm

re: #267 RealityBasedSteve

Those sound like questions a “Journalist” would ask…..

RBS

We don’t have “journalists” reporting the news, we have “TV stars”.

270 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 1:54:03pm

re: #264 A Mom Anon

You would have thought the sight of a bunch of 1st graders being shot to death would have moved things forward. If that doesn’t do it, the only other thing I can imagine that MIGHT do it would be for them to personally have someone’s brains splattered all over their expensive suits. And even then, I have my doubts.

I have friends who currently live in Wales (and have lived all over most of Europe their whole lives) that are totally freaked out by how stupid we are about this, health care and education. I honestly don’t know what to say back to them anymore because there’s nothing I can say.

Yeah I was really hoping that Sandy Hook would be a watershed moment. I am dumbfounded about how stupid we are too. It’s like we’re afraid to discuss the issue. The problem to me is all these idiots in the media who want to blame anything from Asperger’s to this bullshit idea of a war on masculinity. or the more twisted fucks will even blame homosexuality. Saw that Ken Blackwell actually blaming gay marriage for this latest tragedy. Really, we need to have a serious conversation and the tactic of constantly calling anyone who dares to see guns in anything not universally positive a “gun-grabber” doesn’t help shit. It just keeps us stagnate until the next Sandy Hook or Isla Vista happens and we repeat the cycle of asking why this would happen. We need to sincerely ask ourselves why these type of massacres are so common in our country yet seldom heard of in other Western countries.

271 A Mom Anon  May 29, 2014 1:56:10pm

re: #269 Justanotherhuman

Newsmodels or News Readers. Every once in awhile one of them will go out in the field and do some story that means something to them, but that happens maybe once a year. Gotta justify that multi-million dollar contract somehow.

272 b.d.  May 29, 2014 1:56:14pm

re: #262 Minor_L

Marcy Wheeler is, unsurprisingly, trying to find something bad about the email exchange. IT SHOWS THAT THE NSA WAS TRAINING THEIR PEOPLE INCORRECTLY ABOUT THE HIERARCHY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

It’s sad, honestly. (Almost as sad and pathetic as John Cole’s attacks on Charles the other night.)

Marcy is the best damn ex-employee The Intercept ever had. Remember that time she almost did work over there before they stopped her? That really got everyone in a tizzy and they’re still talking about it.

//

273 Shiplord Kirel  May 29, 2014 1:57:18pm

re: #248 RealityBasedSteve

But nothing is quite so much fun as reading about the WORST aircraft of WW2. In their limited defense, most of them were obsolete before the war even started, but were pressed into service anyhow.

RBS

Very good list. Most of these, like the Zubr and the Me-210, were just not properly designed. The Battle, Devastator, and Roc were all basically good aircraft but either out of date or, as with the Roc, designed to a flawed and unworkable tactical requirement. The Devastator was handicapped as much by defective torpedoes as by poor performance. The plane’s top speed was about 150 knots with the torpedo in place but it could not launch the weapon at more than 80 knots, near stalling speed, lest it break up or dive uncontrollably to the bottom.

274 kirkspencer  May 29, 2014 1:57:21pm

re: #264 A Mom Anon

You would have thought the sight of a bunch of 1st graders being shot to death would have moved things forward. If that doesn’t do it, the only other thing I can imagine that MIGHT do it would be for them to personally have someone’s brains splattered all over their expensive suits. And even then, I have my doubts.

I have friends who currently live in Wales (and have lived all over most of Europe their whole lives) that are totally freaked out by how stupid we are about this, health care and education. I honestly don’t know what to say back to them anymore because there’s nothing I can say.

I think it’s (analogously) a tectonic shift building force. I do think restrictions are coming. I think the intense effort to prevent them mean that a) it’ll take something more extreme to trigger the shift and b) the shifts will be even greater. (My near constant refrain: if you insist on all, do not be surprised when you get nothing.)

At this point I’m in agreement with a few other lizards. The most likely candidate is an armed insurrection over something similar to the Bundy incident.

There are a few gun owners, such as fellow lizard RWC, who are conscious of the problem caused by the extremist NRC and who push for a lesser but effective limit to prevent the major one. I honestly hope they’re successful. I fear otherwise.

275 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:01:35pm

re: #252 HappyWarrior

What I wonder though is when enough will be enough and legislators will finally start standing up to the gun lobby who through their allies in the media want to put the conversation everything but easy access to weapons. You’re not allowed to say “You know maybe we should be careful in seeing who gets possession of these things” without someone like LaPierre going on and accusing the person of wanting to take all guns and replicate the Holocaust. It just sucks. It’s a culture of fear to discuss the elephant in the room because elected officials know that if they talk about this issue, there’s going to be a ton of money going their opponent’s way.

276 JustMark  May 29, 2014 2:01:40pm

re: #268 Jack Burton

They should have had an F-86 Sabre between the Mustang and the Phantom.

They so should have. They did have a team of F-104s doing a demo.

277 ObserverArt  May 29, 2014 2:04:00pm

Saw some of you posting great WW2 war birds and I have to give a shout out to one that never quite gets the coverage it deserves. The de Havilland Mosquito.

I read a great book many years ago about how they were constructed out of wood laminates, pieces assembled by ordinary folks in barns and buildings all over the English midlands. Everyone would build their parts and then they’d all be gathered up and finish construction would be done in one location. The wing was one big piece of plywood glued to ribs, just like a big model airplane. The wing was passed through the body and attached.

Add 2 big Merlin engines and away we go.

All of that was done to keep the Germans wondering where the factories were.

The pilots liked them because they were virtually indestructible and if you had issues with bringing one back you more or less just belly landed it in some field or on the airstrip. They were so strong they could take it.

They helped turn the tides in the war because they were a fast lightweight multi-use (light bomber attack plane).

The de Havilland Mosquito

278 Feline Fearless Leader  May 29, 2014 2:04:07pm

re: #276 JustMark

They so should have. They did have a team of F-104s doing a demo.

Adding a F-100 between the F-86 and F-4 would have been nice too.

279 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:04:45pm

re: #255 Flying Squirrel Girl

Cute video alert!

kplctv.com

The bigger girl kept getting in the way :(

280 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 2:04:46pm

re: #248 RealityBasedSteve

But nothing is quite so much fun as reading about the WORST aircraft of WW2. In their limited defense, most of them were obsolete before the war even started, but were pressed into service anyhow.

RBS

Oh the aircraft on that list, the only one I disagree with is the Ohka (aka “Baka”), if only because there were far more deserving aircraft in the Japanese hangers that deserved the title of “worst aircraft.” Like the G4M “Betty,” also known as the “Honorable One Shot Lighter” due to the total lack of armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, or another in the way or protection.

281 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:05:25pm

re: #274 kirkspencer

I think it’s (analogously) a tectonic shift building force. I do think restrictions are coming. I think the intense effort to prevent them mean that a) it’ll take something more extreme to trigger the shift and b) the shifts will be even greater. (My near constant refrain: if you insist on all, do not be surprised when you get nothing.)

At this point I’m in agreement with a few other lizards. The most likely candidate is an armed insurrection over something similar to the Bundy incident.

There are a few gun owners, such as fellow lizard RWC, who are conscious of the problem caused by the extremist NRC and who push for a lesser but effective limit to prevent the major one. I honestly hope they’re successful. I fear otherwise.

I’m pretty much in this camp as well. Nothing will come out of the normal legislative process because the NRA has won on that front. However, the outrages keep piling up, the NRA just fuels the fires, and eventually something is going to change.

When that happens, I think the second amendment would be repealed, and we’d at least end up with Australia-style restrictions. We’d also end up with widespread domestic terrorism from the gun nuts.

This would all be most unpleasant, and if it comes to pass this way it would 100.00% be the fault of the NRA and the gun nuts.

282 A Mom Anon  May 29, 2014 2:06:06pm

re: #270 HappyWarrior

I think we’ve become lazy and complacent. We’ve allowed way too many corners to be cut in the name of stopping “big government” and “saving taxpayer dollars”. You can look all around you and see the results. Our infrastructure was built to a pretty good standard and then left to fall apart over the last 50-70 yrs because money to maintain it was considered a waste. Now we have billions of dollars in replacing and repairing stuff ahead of us and no one is really making the massive effort needed to do it. Think of the jobs it could create. But nooo, investing in ourselves doesn’t have an immediate payback so it’s wasteful. That same mindset carries over into nearly every damned thing now. With guns, there’s money driving the lack of progress, but it’s also the same lazy thinking mixed with lots of fear. And that fear is being driven in part by things falling apart all around us. If things were good, if the economy was moving along, if our infrastructure and educational system were being repaired with tangible results, etc, then this palpable fear people are feasting on would dissipate.

283 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:08:23pm

re: #282 A Mom Anon

I think we’ve become lazy and complacent. We’ve allowed way too many corners to be cut in the name of stopping “big government” and “saving taxpayer dollars”. You can look all around you and see the results. Our infrastructure was built to a pretty good standard and then left to fall apart over the last 50-70 yrs because money to maintain it was considered a waste. Now we have billions of dollars in replacing and repairing stuff ahead of us and no one is really making the massive effort needed to do it. Think of the jobs it could create. But nooo, investing in ourselves doesn’t have an immediate payback so it’s wasteful. That same mindset carries over into nearly every damned thing now. With guns, there’s money driving the lack of progress, but it’s also the same lazy thinking mixed with lots of fear. And that fear is being driven in part by things falling apart all around us. If things were good, if the economy was moving along, if our infrastructure and educational system were being repaired with tangible results, etc, then this palpable fear people are feasting on would dissipate.

I definitely agree. We’ve become a society that is too hesitant to invest in its people in the name of “small government” and “fiscal conservatism.”

284 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:09:53pm

re: #280 Targetpractice

Oh the aircraft on that list, the only one I disagree with is the Ohka (aka “Baka”), if only because there were far more deserving aircraft in the Japanese hangers that deserved the title of “worst aircraft.” Like the G4M “Betty,” also known as the “Honorable One Shot Lighter” due to the total lack of armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, or another in the way or protection.

I’m fond of euphemisms that have an East-Asian flavor, like “Honorable One Shot Lighter”. For some reason these tend to be more humorous for me than most wordplay.

285 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:11:20pm
286 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 2:11:56pm
287 Kragar  May 29, 2014 2:13:48pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

288 Targetpractice  May 29, 2014 2:13:58pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Not to mention it does nothing to address the lack of paper trail. Like I said, it’s something shiny to distract them from the inconvenient questions.

289 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:14:12pm

re: #285 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Good. And I feel even better about my decision to root for the hometown team of my grandparents even more now. Really, the question I ask everyone who accepts the name blindly around here in the D.C area is what would their response be if an expansion team used the name. People around here blindly accept the name because it’s all they’ve ever known. Not justifying it but that is the kind of mentality we’re dealing with here and it’s what Snyder and the Skins FO tries to exploit.

290 A Mom Anon  May 29, 2014 2:15:25pm

re: #283 HappyWarrior

Which is what my friends overseas don’t get. We talk a good game about “the children” and “the importance of education” and other such things, but when it comes time to act, it’s all bullshit and window dressing. It’s not going to get any better until we stop fighting among ourselves politically either. Politics is supposed to be the Art of the Possible, it’s not anymore. It’s become a vicious team sport. The house is burning down all around us and we’re fighting over birth control, marriage equality, and whether or not kids should get lunch at school. Or whether or not it’s really OK for citizens to carry an AK or an AR to the grocery store or out to eat. Jesus.

291 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 2:15:44pm
292 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:15:47pm

re: #281 EPR-radar

I’m pretty much in this camp as well. Nothing will come out of the normal legislative process because the NRA has won on that front. However, the outrages keep piling up, the NRA just fuels the fires, and eventually something is going to change.

When that happens, I think the second amendment would be repealed, and we’d at least end up with Australia-style restrictions. We’d also end up with widespread domestic terrorism from the gun nuts.

This would all be most unpleasant, and if it comes to pass this way it would 100.00% be the fault of the NRA and the gun nuts.

I really for one hope it wouldn’t come to that but I definitely agree that it would be the NRA’s fault. Here’s my big beef with them. They repeatedly oppose measures that they themselves not only supported a generation ago but helped write. Instead of moderating with the times, the NRA has become more and more extremist.

293 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:16:31pm

re: #289 HappyWarrior

Good. And I feel even better about my decision to root for the hometown team of my grandparents even more now. Really, the question I ask everyone who accepts the name blindly around here in the D.C area is what would their response be if an expansion team used the name. People around here blindly accept the name because it’s all they’ve ever known. Not justifying it but that is the kind of mentality we’re dealing with here and it’s what Snyder and the Skins FO tries to exploit.

I liked one of the tweet responses that suggested changing the name to “Whitey Whites” and see how THAT would go over with everyone.

294 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 2:17:05pm

re: #282 A Mom Anon

stopping “big government” and “saving taxpayer dollars”

nothing is saved when there is less money flowing through government. the money that the government spend does not disappear, it is merely circulated through american society doing work in ways that it might not have otherwise

conservative lying morons pundits want you to believe that money disappears when it’s spent

295 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:17:52pm

re: #290 A Mom Anon

Which is what my friends overseas don’t get. We talk a good game about “the children” and “the importance of education” and other such things, but when it comes time to act, it’s all bullshit and window dressing. It’s not going to get any better until we stop fighting among ourselves politically either. Politics is supposed to be the Art of the Possible, it’s not anymore. It’s become a vicious team sport. The house is burning down all around us and we’re fighting over birth control, marriage equality, and whether or not kids should get lunch at school. Or whether or not it’s really OK for citizens to carry an AK or an AR to the grocery store or out to eat. Jesus.

Agreed with everything you’re saying here. Politics IMO has always been theatric in nature but in the past, it seemed like more value was placed on getting shit done. Now it seems like all the value is put on putting a good show on for the base so the official doesn’t have to worry about being threatened with a primary. This is what I get at when I say that McCain is a man I respect less than Ted Cruz. McCain is someone who does know better but engages in for the sake of saving his own power.

296 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:18:55pm

re: #293 Backwoods_Sleuth

I liked one of the tweet responses that suggested changing the name to “Whitey Whites” and see how THAT would go over with everyone.

Heh yep. I am glad to see Reid taking Snyder to task on this. The name was insensitive 80 years ago when a white supremacist founded the team and it’s insensitive 80 years later.

297 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:20:56pm

re: #292 HappyWarrior

I really for one hope it wouldn’t come to that but I definitely agree that it would be the NRA’s fault. Here’s my big beef with them. They repeatedly oppose measures that they themselves not only supported a generation ago but helped write. Instead of moderating with the times, the NRA has become more and more extremist.

The NRA as it stands now is basically subversive and is working diligently on being treasonous. Its core message is that everyone needs to be both afraid and heavily armed at all times because government has failed.

Widespread acceptance of the NRA’s message is one of the few ways the US can actually become a failed state.

298 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:21:57pm

re: #296 HappyWarrior

Heh yep. I am glad to see Reid taking Snyder to task on this. The name was insensitive 80 years ago when a white supremacist founded the team and it’s insensitive 80 years later.

299 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:22:07pm

re: #297 EPR-radar

The NRA as it stands now is basically subversive and is working diligently on being treasonous. It’s core message is that everyone needs to be both afraid and heavily armed at all times because government has failed.

Widespread acceptance of the NRA’s message is one of the few ways the US can actually become a failed state.

It’s a bizarre paradox really. They want their members to be in fear and petrified of the government all the while their leadership palys patty cake with the GOP leadership.

300 Jack Burton  May 29, 2014 2:22:43pm

re: #292 HappyWarrior

I really for one hope it wouldn’t come to that but I definitely agree that it would be the NRA’s fault. Here’s my big beef with them. They repeatedly oppose measures that they themselves not only supported a generation ago but helped write. Instead of moderating with the times, the NRA has become more and more extremist.

That has been the way things have been going on the right since the 2nd Clinton term.

Any compromise is a deal with the devil. Working with the “enemy” to tackle a problem is effectively accepting their side.

When the libertarian kooks started joining them in 2008, the quest for ideological purity was taken up an order of magnitude. The concept of “Perfect is the Enemy of Good” is totally lost on them. If things start to go really “bad” for them, they will only have themselves to blame.

301 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:23:33pm

re: #258 AntonSirius

Your only choice is to burn it all down and start fresh:

[Embedded content]

Indeed. Thanks for that!

302 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:24:17pm

re: #299 HappyWarrior

It’s a bizarre paradox really. They want their members to be in fear and petrified of the government all the while their leadership palys patty cake with the GOP leadership.

The NRA and gun nuts could easily turn into the GOP’s brownshirts with the benefits of plausible deniability. That’s one of the most irritating things about the Cliven Bundy mess.

303 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:24:31pm

re: #299 HappyWarrior

It’s a bizarre paradox really. They want their members to be in fear and petrified of the government all the while their leadership palys patty cake with the GOP leadership.

NRA leadership actually represents the gun industry now, not the membership like it was way back in the day.

304 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 2:25:04pm

Heh

305 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:25:14pm

re: #293 Backwoods_Sleuth

I liked one of the tweet responses that suggested changing the name to “Whitey Whites” and see how THAT would go over with everyone.

whiteskins.org

306 Kragar  May 29, 2014 2:25:49pm
307 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:26:25pm

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Dear GG, let me know how polishing that turd you want to make into the “biggest news of the interview” work out for you.

308 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:26:29pm

oh dear…bwahahaaaa!

309 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:27:27pm

re: #308 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh dear…bwahahaaaa!

[Embedded content]

Welcome to Bad Revisionist History.

310 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:28:22pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

Welcome to Bad Revisionist History.

Wish I could get a screen grab of that, but I can’t.

311 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 2:29:19pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I think the NSA expected people who work for them to have a better education about govt than Snowjob did.

The NSA didn’t hire him, though. Their contractor did.

312 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:29:24pm

re: #303 Backwoods_Sleuth

NRA leadership actually represents the gun industry now, not the membership like it day way back in the day.

Oh no disputing that. My point is while the average NRA member cowers in fear at his government. The NRA’s board members are dining and wining with that same government.

313 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 29, 2014 2:29:31pm

re: #308 Backwoods_Sleuth

314 Eventual Carrion  May 29, 2014 2:31:09pm

re: #308 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh dear…bwahahaaaa!

[Embedded content]

Damn, I thought it was Hall and Oates: The early days

315 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:31:56pm

Really I guess this all gets me back to why I detest political opportunists more so than true believer nut types. The opportunist knows he’x exploiting sentiments he may know to be wrong or too far out there but he doesn’t care just as long as he preserves power. This is what IMO made George Wallace such a terrible individual.

316 Jack Burton  May 29, 2014 2:32:03pm

re: #308 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh dear…bwahahaaaa!

[Embedded content]

There is a duplicate tweet from 2 hours before it that has the correct picture, so I’m sure this is a copy-&-paste (or some other technical issue) oopsie.

317 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 2:32:16pm

re: #310 Backwoods_Sleuth

Wish I could get a screen grab of that, but I can’t.

never mind, I got the screengrab using Ctrl- to shrink the page.
yay, me!

318 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 2:34:43pm

You’ll never convince me!

319 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 2:38:56pm

Police: High school in Orange County, Calif., on lockdown after empty shotgun case found in campus parking lot - @CBSLA
Read more on cbslocal.com

320 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 2:39:34pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

That would involve doing, you know, actual research (“journalism”)

321 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 2:40:14pm
322 thedopefishlives  May 29, 2014 2:41:02pm

Evening Lizardim from the warm and sunny wild north country. So, did the Hypnowald or any of his assorted minions come up with the YOU CAN’T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE NSA SAYS!!! line yet? As soon as I saw the headline, I assumed that someone would tweet something to that effect. How go things among the lizardfolk?

323 Pie-onist Overlord  May 29, 2014 2:43:25pm

I’m sitting here waiting for my grandson to call and tell me to pick him up at the bus station.

324 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 2:43:37pm
325 Shazam  May 29, 2014 2:46:53pm

I don’t think he was advised to send the email. It seems more like he had a legitimate question, then later someone in the Snowden/Greenwald camp noticed he once sent an email—any email—and they then figured they could use it as an argument for their story, while hoping the details of the email would remain hidden.

326 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:47:58pm

re: #325 Shazam

I don’t think he was advised to send the email. It seems more like he had a legitimate question, then later someone in the Snowden/Greenwald camp noticed he once sent an email—any email—and they then figured they could use it as an argument for their story, while hoping the details of the email would remain hidden.

Very plausible. IMO, any email created deliberately as a cover would not have been so blatantly irrelevant.

327 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:49:50pm
328 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 2:50:09pm

re: #326 EPR-radar

Very plausible. IMO, any email created deliberately as a cover would not have been so blatantly irrelevant.

Yes, and it was a legal question, well, directed to the legal office, and he was getting “advice” already from an ex-lawyer at the time.

329 NJDhockeyfan  May 29, 2014 2:51:43pm
330 Kragar  May 29, 2014 2:53:42pm
331 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 2:54:37pm

re: #326 EPR-radar

Very plausible. IMO, any email created deliberately as a cover would not have been so blatantly irrelevant.

At that point he was well into his massive theft of documents, so it would not have made sense to send a stronger email alleging wrongdoing and invite unwanted attention.

On the other hand, a relatively innocuous question about a long-standing EO avoids that attention but establishes a paper trail that can be argued about.

332 Shazam  May 29, 2014 2:54:42pm

Is the department he contacted even the correct one to voice concerns about illegal wrongdoings of the NSA or its employees? The text of the email clearly isn’t about that, but it seems to me Snowden/Greenwald figure any email direct at anyone in the NSA is proof of responsible action before whistle-blowing. The email could have been about the selection of snack foods in the vending machines and they would have said, “LOOK HE SENT EMAILS!!!!”

333 Dr Lizardo  May 29, 2014 2:55:13pm

re: #330 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Sounds legit

///

*headdesk*

334 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 2:56:03pm

re: #328 Justanotherhuman

Yes, and it was a legal question, well, directed to the legal office, and he was getting “advice” already from an ex-lawyer at the time.

Greenwald is not licensed to practice in Snowtopia.

335 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:56:56pm

re: #332 Shazam

Is the department he contacted even the correct one to voice concerns about illegal wrongdoings of the NSA or its employees? The text of the email clearly isn’t about that, but it seems to me Snowden/Greenwald figure any email direct at anyone in the NSA is proof of responsible action before whistle-blowing. The email could have been about the selection of snack foods in the vending machines and they would have said, “LOOK HE SENT EMAILS!!!!”

No. Should have been Inspector General, not General Counsel.

336 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 2:57:19pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

At that point he was well into his massive theft of documents, so it would not have made sense to send a stronger email alleging wrongdoing and invite unwanted attention.

On the other hand, a relatively innocuous question about a long-standing EO avoids that attention but establishes a paper trail that can be argued about.

But where’s the beef? The one email that has been produced isn’t going to convince anyone who isn’t already a True Believer(TM) of anything.

337 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 2:58:06pm

re: #336 EPR-radar

But where’s the beef? The one email that has been produced isn’t going to convince anyone who isn’t already a True Believer(TM) of anything.

It’s kind of a vegan email, isn’t it?

338 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:58:43pm

re: #330 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Says the man who ran for Congress two years ago.

339 nines09  May 29, 2014 2:58:53pm

re: #330 Kragar

Just can’t keep his mouth shut can he? Brought to you by your local GOP.

340 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 2:59:52pm

Thanks again John McCain. Not Joe the non-plumber is another fine legacy of yours. You just had to give this guy 15 mins of undeserved fame because you had no principles and wanted to make Obama’s tax plan out to be socialism.

341 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:00:36pm

re: #334 Decatur Deb

Greenwald is not licensed to practice in Snowtopia.

If he doesn’t have a current license in any state, he’s no longer a practicing lawyer, “constitutional” or otherwise. Has he kept up with his CLEs? I rather doubt it.

I read a claim somewhere that he’s still licensed in NY state, but why, since he’s been in Brazil almost 10 yrs and doesn’t appear to be coming back here to live.

342 A Mom Anon  May 29, 2014 3:01:15pm

re: #303 Backwoods_Sleuth

Yep. They’re an industry lobbying group, just like all the rest on K Street. Only with the NRA, they also get to claim they’re some sort of grassroots group who represents gun owners and safety. So, in addition to all that industry money, they take money from people who probably don’t have lots to spare in the first place in the name of “membership dues”. The NRA could give a shit about their members, it’s all about how much money their CEO and the rest of the executives can make and how much legislation they can either write or destroy to make the industry happy.

343 piratedan  May 29, 2014 3:02:19pm

re: #336 EPR-radar

well I’ve learned to never underestimate the willful stupidity of certain folks that won’t give up their beliefs no matter how many facts you toss under their noses, example #1 Obama’s Birth Certificate…

This is simply Griftwald tapping into the libertarian ethos that the individual is above the Government in deciding what is moral, true and ethical. Snowden bought into that schtick and offered to be the conduit to expose the perfidious nature of the US security apparatus. Apparently an oath sworn to people who aren’t considered to be honorable means that in his own mind, Snowden didn’t do anything wrong and for some reason the rest of us are having trouble understanding that because a government can do a thing is just the same as a government actually doing a thing.

344 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 3:02:33pm

these kids today wadda they know

things were different when we were young it was a different world i tellya a different world

345 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:04:07pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

So the NSA just ADMITTED they don’t clearly train that law takes precedence over EO 12333.

And just how does she know snowjob was asking about this particular EO? It wasn’t mentioned in the E-Mail. He was just asking what took precedent. The Law or an EO.

346 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 3:04:37pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

At that point he was well into his massive theft of documents, so it would not have made sense to send a stronger email alleging wrongdoing and invite unwanted attention.

On the other hand, a relatively innocuous question about a long-standing EO avoids that attention but establishes a paper trail that can be argued about.

…as Marcy is doing right now.

347 Dr Lizardo  May 29, 2014 3:05:05pm

re: #344 dog philosopher

these kids today wadda they know

things were different when we were young it was a different world i tellya a different world

Music videos when I was a young whippersnapper had dwarves.

Youtube Video

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

348 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:05:09pm

re: #343 piratedan

well I’ve learned to never underestimate the willful stupidity of certain folks that won’t give up their beliefs no maytter how many facts you toss under their noses, example #1 Obama’s Birth Certificate…

This is simply Griftwald tapping into the libertarian ethos that the individual is above the Government in deciding what is moral, true and ethical. Snowden bought into that schtick and offered to be the conduit to expose the perfidious nature of the US security apparatus. Apparently an oath sworn to people who aren’t considered to be honorable means that in his own mind, Snowden didn’t do anything wrong and for some reason the rest of us are having trouble understanding that because a government can do a thing is just the same as a government actually doing a thing.

Snowden is supposed to be some kind of super-genius, but I could chug some alphabet soup and crap out a better email for covering my ass while in the process of stealing government document than this sorry specimen.

349 thedopefishlives  May 29, 2014 3:06:40pm

re: #348 EPR-radar

Snowden is supposed to be some kind of super-genius, but I could chug some alphabet soup and crap out a better email for covering my ass while in the process of stealing government document than this sorry specimen.

At this point, it’s becoming more and more appropriate to call him Maxwell Smart.

350 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:06:56pm

re: #346 AntonSirius

…as Marcy is doing right now.

Which is why I am asking, how does she know what EO snowjob was concerned with? It wasn’t in the E-Mail.

351 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 3:07:00pm

re: #348 EPR-radar

Snowden is supposed to be some kind of super-genius, but I could chug some alphabet soup and crap out a better email for covering my ass while in the process of stealing government document than this sorry specimen.

You’d probably also think to copy it, if it was supposed to bolster your defense.

352 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:07:04pm

re: #346 AntonSirius

…as Marcy is doing right now.

I’d honestly be surprised if Marcy’s arguments persuade one single person in the entire world. We’ve reached the “pounding the table” part of the old joke about lawyers.

353 piratedan  May 29, 2014 3:08:45pm

re: #348 EPR-radar

he’s no Paul Muad’Dib, that’s for sure :-)

354 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 3:09:17pm

re: #345 Bubblehead II

And just how does she know snowjob was asking about this particular EO? It wasn’t mentioned in the E-Mail. He was just asking what took precedent. The Law or an EO.

You’re right - Snowden asked a general question about executive orders, nothing about a particular EO.

355 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 3:09:18pm

re: #352 EPR-radar

I’d honestly be surprised if Marcy’s arguments persuade one single person in the entire world. We’ve reached the “pounding the table” part of the old joke about lawyers.

“Some people say…”

The conspiracy nut in me can’t help but wonder if Marcy left the Intercept so as to re-establish some sort of independent cred that might be useful in situations like these.

356 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:11:18pm

Here’s a noteworthy bit of understatement from the NSA:

We have searched for additional indications of outreach from him in those areas and to date have not discovered any engagement related to his claims.

Given the potential for extreme embarrassment if Snowald were to release pertinent emails after a statement like that, I’m sure it wasn’t released until the NSA brass were thoroughly convinced that no such activity had happened.

357 kirkspencer  May 29, 2014 3:12:08pm

re: #347 Dr Lizardo

Music videos when I was a young whippersnapper had dwarves.

[Embedded content]

Video

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

I was 21 when MTV started broadcasting. 22 when this played.

I comfort myself knowing I am not the oldest lizard.

358 Shazam  May 29, 2014 3:13:24pm

The email looks less like a clever ploy to establish a paper trail and more like a question asked legitimately, and Snowden is using it after the fact simply because it exists.

Snowden and Greenwald may have copies of his email and the response email, but the text of the emails don’t actually help their case so they were never going to release them themselves. It’s the fact that an email was sent that they wanted out there, not the content of it.

359 urbanmeemaw  May 29, 2014 3:13:30pm

re: #138 Feline Fearless Leader

Next on The Intercept - the Snowden emails that neither he nor the NSA have copies of.
//

The NSA “disappeared” them as soon as he typed them!!!

This calls for hashtag: #SnowdenNSAEmails.

360 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 3:14:28pm

re: #357 kirkspencer

I was 21 when MTV started broadcasting. 22 when this played.

I comfort myself knowing I am not the oldest lizard.

For a second I thought you meant this one:

Vimeo

361 AntonSirius  May 29, 2014 3:16:28pm

re: #359 urbanmeemaw

The NSA “disappeared” them as soon as he typed them!!!

This calls for hashtag: #SnowdenNSAEmails.

Too late.

362 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:17:19pm

re: #355 AntonSirius

“Some people say…”

The conspiracy nut in me can’t help but wonder if Marcy left the Intercept so as to re-establish some sort of independent cred that might be useful in situations like these.

Too much regimentation at The Intercept?

363 Backwoods_Sleuth  May 29, 2014 3:18:09pm

oh, the desperation is palpable…

364 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:18:47pm

re: #361 AntonSirius

Too late.

Hahahaha…

Allan Brauer ‏@allanbrauer 2h

Are we allowed to microwave fish? #SnowdenEmails

365 Stanley Sea  May 29, 2014 3:20:38pm

re: #364 Justanotherhuman

Hahahaha…

Allan Brauer ‏@allanbrauer 2h

Are we allowed to microwave fish? #SnowdenEmails

hahaha

366 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:20:45pm

re: #355 AntonSirius

“Some people say…”

The conspiracy nut in me can’t help but wonder if Marcy left the Intercept so as to re-establish some sort of independent cred that might be useful in situations like these.

I was thinking the same thing. Hypnowad was awfully damn quite when she left. Given his ego, one would have expected at least one or two tweets about how he was betrayed and or mistreated.

367 Dr Lizardo  May 29, 2014 3:20:49pm

I remember this.

Youtube Video

I had a friend in grade school and his older brother was in the US Army in Europe, and he’d send home popular European music. The above song showed up; I first heard it way back in late 1979. Then a couple of years later, Laura Branigan had a huge hit with her cover of it.

Then it was a long time until I heard the original again, in The Wolf Of Wall Street. That took me back instantly to my childhood. :)

368 Jack Burton  May 29, 2014 3:21:45pm

re: #363 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, the desperation is palpable…

[Embedded content]

It’s not like Executive Branch department employees and Federal contractors have to wade through a swamp of regulations, laws, and executive orders or anything.

/

369 allegro  May 29, 2014 3:23:50pm

re: #363 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, the desperation is palpable…

[Embedded content]

LOLWUT? The unmistakable aroma of bullshit obfuscation fills the air….

370 makeitstop  May 29, 2014 3:24:31pm

re: #357 kirkspencer

I comfort myself knowing I am not the oldest lizard.

Not by a long shot, buddy. I say this as one of the older Lizards.

371 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:26:58pm

re: #363 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, the desperation is palpable…

[Embedded content]

BUSTED! Just looked at the E-Mail again no mention of USSID 18 in it. Marcy is so screwed. So how did she know? Answer, she didn’t. This is smelling worse than 3 day old fish.

As pointed out down below, USSID 18 is in fact mentioned in the subject line. My bad.

372 urbanmeemaw  May 29, 2014 3:27:42pm

re: #165 Rev_Arthur_Belling

As amateurish as both Snowden and Greenwald have been throughout this, I’m amazed they’ve snookered so many people who are allegedly skeptical by nature, journalists and techno-libertarians alike.

On one level that has amazed me also, especially considering how vitriolic Godwald has been towards the “establishment” media. For that vitriol alone I’m surprised at how they pander to him.

On another level, I think this shows how hell bent the media are on presenting a script or agenda. The ties between NBC and the Intercept remind me of how CBS hoped to parlay their “explosive” Benghazi “expose” on 60 minutes into book sales with their publishing company. Think about it. Within a few months we’ve had to major broadcast networks making kissy face with actors who are trying to undermine Obama/US government and profit on “multi media digital platforms”.

373 Shazam  May 29, 2014 3:27:52pm

The training material, according to Snowden’s email, put Executive Orders on the same level as Federal Statutes. Snowden took this to mean that EO’s could, somehow, override statutes.

The response was that they were together because EO’s are treated as having the “force and effect of laws,” not because EO’s can override statutes.

So Snowden was basically saying it should have gone like this:

U.S. Constitution
Federal Statues
Executive Orders
etc.

That’s basically quibbling over a minor detail. It has nothing to do with concern over abuse by the NSA. It’s a stretch to say they were training agents to ignore statutes in favor of EO’s, or that Snowden was pointing that out.

374 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:28:04pm

re: #371 Bubblehead II

BUSTED! Just looked at the E-Mail again no mention of USSID 18 in it. Marcy is so screwed.

That’s a little too easy. Snowden’s question in his email is about the USSID 18 training.

375 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:28:04pm

re: #368 Jack Burton

It’s not like Executive Branch department employees and Federal contractors have to wade through a swamp of regulations, laws, and executive orders or anything.

/

Yes, why would a lowly sysadmin have to question it?

All of that shit would have been researched, proofed, and fact-checked through several different levels before it came out in a training manual, wouldn’t ya think? They have lots of employees who do that sort of thing, and a sysadmin isn’t one of them.

Makes you wonder if the NSA really was already on to him.

376 Charles Johnson  May 29, 2014 3:28:09pm
377 Eclectic Cyborg  May 29, 2014 3:28:36pm

I think I am one of the youngerish Lizards (32)

378 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 3:29:41pm

re: #357 kirkspencer

I was 21 when MTV started broadcasting. 22 when this played.

I comfort myself knowing I am not the oldest lizard.

next stage will be when you realize that being the oldest can be very comforting

379 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:30:52pm

re: #370 makeitstop

Not by a long shot, buddy. I say this as one of the older Lizards.

I may be the oldest. : ) Actually in my 80th 8th decade.

Good grief! Sounds ancient…but better than the alternative.

380 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:31:04pm

re: #374 EPR-radar

That a little too easy. Snowden’s question is about the USSID 18 training.

I stand corrected. I was looking in the body of the E-Mail, not the Subject line.

381 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:32:24pm

re: #379 Justanotherhuman

I may be the oldest. : ) Actually in my 80th decade.

Good grief! Sounds ancient…but better than the alternative.

80th decade? We have the next Methuselah. :-)

382 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:33:21pm

re: #381 EPR-radar

80th decade? We have the next Methuselah. :-)

Damn it! Meant 8th, but was distracted by a great-grandson.

Teehee!

383 allegro  May 29, 2014 3:34:29pm

re: #379 Justanotherhuman

I may be the oldest. : ) Actually in my 80th decade.

Good grief! Sounds ancient…but better than the alternative.

Strangely, or not, my own age doesn’t affect me at all, but the fact that my best friend is 78 kinda freaks me out. Especially since he’s still trying to decide what he wants to be when he grows up.

384 klys  May 29, 2014 3:35:01pm

re: #382 Justanotherhuman

Damn it! Meant 8th, but was distracted by a great-grandson.

Teehee!

It’s ok, you can be honest with us that you’re older than dirt. ;)

385 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:37:14pm

re: #384 klys

It’s ok, you can be honest with us that you’re older than dirt. ;)

1941—born in a time of war, will probably die in a time of war—somewhere.

386 Bubblehead II  May 29, 2014 3:40:41pm

re: #382 Justanotherhuman

Damn it! Meant 8th, but was distracted by a great-grandson.

Teehee!

5 decades (and holding). I’m not over the hill I’m at the top of it. ;-)

387 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 3:41:04pm

re: #382 Justanotherhuman

Damn it! Meant 8th, but was distracted by a great-grandson.

Teehee!

so he’s only about 400 y/o or so eh?

388 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:42:58pm
389 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:44:58pm

US State Department issues new travel warning asking US citizens to reconsider any non-essential travel to Thailand - @statedept
End of alert

390 Skip Intro  May 29, 2014 3:46:10pm

Sorry if this has already been posted.

The Conspiracy Theories Begin.

Lots more crazy from the former 80s punker.

391 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 3:47:12pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson
Ex-Intercept employee Marcy Wheeler is telegraphing the coming spin:

[Embedded content]

Dear Marcy,

No Marcy it doesn’t. As a professional trainer when somebody asks me a question, it could mean several things…

1, I’ve mentioned / discussed it, but the individual didn’t hear / listen to me. (no content was transferred)
2. The individual heard me, but is unclear on some aspect. (content was transferred, but not clarified or understood)
3. The individual does have understanding, but now is looking at it from perhaps a different perspective or consideration. (content was transferred, individual understood and internalized, is is moving to next level)
4. Individual is seeking to reconcile 2 or more conflicting pieces of information.
5. Individual is a self-absorbed ass-wipe trying to look impressive.

This is hardly an all exhaustive list, give me a call, I’ll be glad to do a 2 hour seminar on “Questions, what they are asking, and what it really means… Your tool for effective learning management”. My standard rates apply.

RBS

392 HappyWarrior  May 29, 2014 3:48:18pm

re: #390 Skip Intro

Sorry if this has already been posted.

The Conspiracy Theories Begin.

[Embedded content]

Lots more crazy from the former 80s singer.

Sigh. Heard about that earlier. Too many damn CT nuts.

393 dog philosopher  May 29, 2014 3:51:22pm

you know yer old when you get the pains in yer pre-indo-european substrates

394 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 3:53:01pm

re: #378 dog philosopher

next stage will be when you realize that being the oldest can be very comforting

Like the #1 Al Queda leader.

395 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 3:55:29pm

re: #394 Decatur Deb

Like the #1 Al Queda leader.

Probably better than being the #2 guy, out there in the field running operations.

RBS

396 wrenchwench  May 29, 2014 3:55:33pm

re: #391 RealityBasedSteve

Ex-Intercept employee Marcy Wheeler is telegraphing the coming spin:

[Embedded content]

Dear Marcy,

No Marcy it doesn’t. As a professional trainer when somebody asks me a question, it could mean several things…

1, I’ve mentioned / discussed it, but the individual didn’t hear / listen to me. (no content was transferred)
2. The individual heard me, but is unclear on some aspect. (content was transferred, but not clarified or understood)
3. The individual does have understanding, but now is looking at it from perhaps a different perspective or consideration. (content was transferred, individual understood and internalized, is is moving to next level)
4. Individual is seeking to reconcile 2 or more conflicting pieces of information.
5. Individual is a self-absorbed ass-wipe trying to look impressive.

This is hardly an all exhaustive list, give me a call, I’ll be glad to do a 2 hour seminar on “Questions, what they are asking, and what it really means… Your tool for effective learning management”. My standard rates apply.

RBS

I know! I know!

5!

397 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 3:57:02pm

I have to say, Snowjob certainly has some chutzpah to lie so easily and glibly.

“One of my final official acts in government was continuing one of these communications with a legal office,” Snowden said. “And in fact, I’m so sure that these communications exist that I’ve called on Congress to write a letter to the NSA to verify that they do.”

(snip)

“The problem was not some unknown and isolated instance of misconduct,” Wizner said. “The problem was that an entire system of mass surveillance had been deployed—and deemed legal—without the knowledge or consent of the public.”

(snip)

“On Thursday, White House press secretary Jay Carney reiterated that an option of clemency was “not on the table” for Snowden.”

nationaljournal.com

He was “in government”? I thought he was a contractor, not a govt employee, per se. And “continuing one of these communications”?

398 MomSense  May 29, 2014 3:58:53pm

re: #23 ericblair

His whole rationale for blowing town was that he couldn’t get anyone to listen: of course, if you don’t say anything it’s hard for people to listen, huh?

I thought he contacted Greenwald before going to work for Booz Allen.

399 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 3:59:21pm

re: #391 RealityBasedSteve

From the point of view of a rule-bound bureaucracy (which the NSA is), lumping laws and executive orders into the same category makes perfect sense. They are both external directives from on high that the agency’s own rule-making needs to be consistent with.

In case of a real or perceived conflict between law and executive order, there are procedures in place for dealing with this. Said procedures doubtless rely on securing legal opinions as to whether or not there is a conflict and what to do about it if there is a real conflict.

Procedures for dealing with a conflict between executive orders and laws conspicuously do not feature an IT contractor making a determination that following the executive order violates the law and going off to Russia and China with a mountain of stolen documents.

400 RealityBasedSteve  May 29, 2014 4:03:03pm

re: #399 EPR-radar

From the point of view of a rule-bound bureaucracy (which the NSA is), lumping laws and executive orders into the same category makes perfect sense. They are both external directives from on high that the agency’s own rule-making needs to be consistent with.

In case of a real or perceived conflict between law and executive order, there are procedures in place for dealing with this. Said procedures doubtless rely on securing legal opinions as to whether or not there is a conflict and what to do about it if there is a real conflict.

Procedures for dealing with a conflict between executive orders and laws conspicuously do not feature an IT contractor making a determination that following the executive order violates the law and going off to Russia and China with a mountain of stolen documents.

so…. I’ll put you down for a 5 on that one. :-) I fully believe that this email was nothing more than a preemptive CYA move, and like about everything else Snowden has done, reeks of self-absorbed dudebro, and someone getting his strings pulled (or at least spurred on) by someone else. Humm… I wonder who that could have been?

RBS

401 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 4:04:51pm

re: #398 MomSense

I thought he contacted Greenwald before going to work for Booz Allen.

He did.

402 urbanmeemaw  May 29, 2014 4:07:15pm

re: #361 AntonSirius

Thanks, Anton. Story of my life. I also have a gift for posting on dead threads. LOL

403 MomSense  May 29, 2014 4:09:40pm

re: #401 Justanotherhuman

This whistleblower claim is mighty thin.

404 EPR-radar  May 29, 2014 4:11:14pm

re: #403 MomSense

This whistleblower claim is mighty thin.

It’s just pining for the fjords.

405 Justanotherhuman  May 29, 2014 4:14:30pm

re: #403 MomSense

This whistleblower claim is mighty thin.

Not a whistleblower, but a thief.

406 Decatur Deb  May 29, 2014 4:14:39pm

re: #399 EPR-radar

From the point of view of a rule-bound bureaucracy (which the NSA is), lumping laws and executive orders into the same category makes perfect sense. They are both external directives from on high that the agency’s own rule-making needs to be consistent with.

In case of a real or perceived conflict between law and executive order, there are procedures in place for dealing with this. Said procedures doubtless rely on securing legal opinions as to whether or not there is a conflict and what to do about it if there is a real conflict.

Procedures for dealing with a conflict between executive orders and laws conspicuously do not feature an IT contractor making a determination that following the executive order violates the law and going off to Russia and China with a mountain of stolen documents.

I’ve helped write executive orders. They’re not done in an afternoon, and every lonesome MF in the chain of command gets to puke on it before it
goes past the little old lady in tennis shoes to the President’s desk. Conflicts with a law are very rare and squared away quickly. Most of them are merely an update of EOs from administrations past.

407 Dr Lizardo  May 29, 2014 4:14:48pm

This is interesting.

Two women - both married, in their late 40s to early 50s, have mysteriously gone missing here in Ostrava. The first woman went missing on the 26th of May, the second one went missing yesterday.

In both cases, they simply vanished. Their mobile phones have been switched off as well. Needless to say, this has the cops here a little concerned, as it’s sort of……peculiar. Both women were married with families; it was their families that reported them missing.

I’ll have to keep following this one, and if more women go missing, then there’s a pattern. The police here aren’t publicly speculating - naturally - but they’ve privately told reporters, off the record, that they think something sinister may be afoot.

408 socrets  May 29, 2014 4:44:01pm

Assuming the NSA is ,in fact, lying, shouldn’t our fearless bringer of light and truth have had the foresight to have his copy of the emails? And as a former attorney, shouldn’t Greenwald had thought about this ahead of time? I don’t know what to be more disgusted with: Greenwald’s incompetence and narcissim or Snowden’s spinelessness.

409 ericblair  May 29, 2014 4:48:39pm

re: #406 Decatur Deb

I’ve helped write executive orders. They’re not done in an afternoon, and every lonesome MF in the chain of command gets to puke on it before it
goes past the little old lady in tennis shoes to the President’s desk. Conflicts with a law are very rare and squared away quickly. Most of them are merely an update of EOs from administrations past.

Yup, I’ve never worked on anything as big as EOs, but worked on agency wide memos and those things get drafted for months and staffed to everybody all over the federal agency. Probably hundreds of experts go over them, because they know they’ll get stuck living with the results.

Whatever training Eddie was talking about, however, very well might have been written in an afternoon with minimal review if it was some sort of brown bag or department level course. I don’t think there was anything nefarious about it, and I’ll bet EOs and Federal Statutes were on the same line because the author was running out of space on the Powerpoint slide.

410 JEA62  May 29, 2014 6:45:01pm

You’re actually relying on the NSA’s honesty? Seriously?

411 klys  May 29, 2014 6:49:18pm

re: #410 JEA62

You’re actually relying on the NSA’s honesty? Seriously?

Since they’re actually releasing an email exchange and Snowden has released bupkiss to support his assertions, yes.

412 coin operated  May 29, 2014 7:52:51pm

re: #410 JEA62

I’m certain a procedural review occurred about a microsecond after Snowden landed in China, and his weak mea culpa was discussed. If Snowden has any emails, now is the time for them to see the light of day.

413 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 29, 2014 8:10:16pm

re: #242 AntonSirius

Well, they’re right. Obama’s made his contempt for the joke that is Beltway journalism pretty clear since he took office.

Doesn’t mean he’s reading their emails though. In fact, it points pretty directly to him believing Beltway journos produce nothing worth reading.

Sorry I’m late to respond to this, but I did use the word “real” journalists so as not to get them confused with the people who play journalists in D.C. (I’m staring directly at you, Chuck Todd, foremost). :)

414 jonhendry  May 29, 2014 8:18:17pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

Snowden could succumb to a tragic overdose of krokodil. “Under the stress of his pursuit by American officials, Snowden apparently sought solace in street drugs.”

415 jonhendry  May 29, 2014 9:38:08pm

re: #342 A Mom Anon

“So, in addition to all that industry money, they take money from people who probably don’t have lots to spare in the first place in the name of “membership dues”. “

And they write the “firearm safety” class that is administered in CT as a requirement for getting a permit to buy handguns. Other states probably do the same.

Of course, the class is almost impossible to fail. The test at the end is open book, ask-your-classmates easy. It requires no actual learning. The only way to fail it would pretty much be to do something reckless on the firing range during the “live fire” portion of the class. But I wouldn’t put it past a real evangelical gun nut instructor to pass someone who did that, just to get more handguns out in the population.

416 BadExampleMan  May 29, 2014 11:19:30pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

Late to the party, but why would Putin bother going to all that trouble? Snowden’s a valuable bargaining chip to use with the USA. Once Putin’s tired of him hanging around, the next time he wants something big from the USA, he just dangles Snowden in front of us and before you can say “weakened encryption standards”, Ed’s dropped off at the US Embassy.

417 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  May 30, 2014 1:16:12am

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Putin faces a quandary: How does he get rid of Snowden when that shiny but soft and ill-made tool ceases to be useful? He can’t very well have him assassinated. It would be easy enough to blame such a murder on the CIA, and gullible conspiracists would swallow it hook, line and sinker; but it would also be an admission of a humiliating security lapse. This would be very damaging to the Putin gang’s tough guy image.
A very public accident, without the false flag attempt, might be possible but a lot can go wrong when that kind of stuff is tried in real life.

Let’s not “overthink” this. Putin is evil, but not comic-book-evil. More like “Nixon”-evil/Realpolitik-evil. Assassinations etc. are saved for the “justified targets”/enemies, like Litvinenko or Yandarbiyev. Snowden is not an enemy, and being a useless pawn is not (yet) a capital punishment offence.


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 Frank says:

The first hyphen in MAH-JUH-REEN could be used for erotic gratification by a very desparate stenographer. -- Sydney australia, 1974, second night. on Mystery box III