Remember the Last Time Bill Kristol Told Us “What to Do in Iraq?”

The gang’s all here
Middle East • Views: 42,588

But wait! We’re not done with recycled neocon hawks and their bad advice yet!

Now we have a two-fer at the Weekly Standard, as William Kristol and Frederick Kagan team up to call for MOAR WAR: What to Do in Iraq.

This would require a willingness to send American forces back to Iraq. It would mean not merely conducting U.S. air strikes, but also accompanying those strikes with special operators, and perhaps regular U.S. military units, on the ground. This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads, and that we have not thrown in with the Iranians. It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces on terms that would allow us to demand the demobilization of Shi’a militias and to move to limit Iranian influence and to create bargaining chips with Iran to insist on the withdrawal of their forces if and when the situation stabilizes.

Quick reminder: in March 2004, Kristol wrote this:

We may have turned a corner in terms of security.

It’s really quite amazing — and not in a good way — to see all the horribly wrong people with bad advice and bad ideas popping up again to try to sell the US public on more bad ideas.

Jump to bottom

157 comments
1 Targetpractice  Jun 16, 2014 12:08:24pm

It seems all the talk about Iran working with Iraq to put down ISIS has got the Cold Warriors running scared. Not only do we have to get in there and put the kibosh on ISIS, but we’ve gotta assure the Maliki government that they don’t need no Mullahs because we’re the only sugar daddy they’ll ever need.

2 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:08:28pm

Another guy who talks as if he has credibility on this issue but in fact has zlitch.

3 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:09:35pm

re: #2 HappyWarrior

Another guy who talks as if he has credibility on this issue but in fact has zlitch.

It’s funny how those with the least credibility or knowledge are always the ones talking the most.

4 blueraven  Jun 16, 2014 12:10:07pm

They have to do this. Otherwise they have to admit they were wrong.
Seriously, they would rather drag us back into war than admit that.

The shame is the journalists who keep giving voice to these fools.
In other words, damn near the entire US media.

5 Testy Toad T  Jun 16, 2014 12:10:35pm
It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government

I’ve had wooden nickels worth more.

and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces

The only thing that the Iraqi Security Forces really need right now is a hefty supply of corsets with which they might keep their backs upright.

6 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 12:10:40pm

William Kristol was the lead signatory to the infamous PNAC letter.

7 EmmaAnne  Jun 16, 2014 12:11:06pm

One of my few fonds memories of that time was when Jon Stewart got Bill Kristol to admit the Bush administration “drove the car into the ditch” in Iraq. He backtracked and became wrong on everything again immediately of course.

8 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:11:08pm

Kristol in March 2004: Iraq One Year Later | the Weekly Standard.

A YEAR HAS PASSED since the invasion of Iraq, and while no sensible person would claim that Iraqis are safely and irrevocably on a course to liberal democracy, the honest and rather remarkable truth is that they have made enormous strides in that direction. The signing on March 8 of the Iraqi interim constitution—containing the strongest guarantees of individual, minority, and women’s rights and liberties to be found anywhere in the Arab world—is the most obvious success. But there are other measures of progress, as well. Electricity and oil production in Iraq have returned to prewar levels. The capture of Saddam Hussein has damaged the Baathist-led insurgency, although jihadists continue to launch horrific attacks on Iraqi civilians. But by most accounts those vicious attacks have spurred more Iraqis to get more involved in building a better Iraq. We may have turned a corner in terms of security.

What’s more, there are hopeful signs that Iraqis of differing religious, ethnic, and political persuasions can work together. This is a far cry from the predictions made before the war by many, both here and in Europe, that a liberated Iraq would fracture into feuding clans and unleash a bloodbath. The perpetually sour American media focus on the tensions between Shiites and Kurds that delayed the signing by three whole days. But the difficult negotiations leading up to the signing, and the continuing debates over the terms of a final constitution, have in fact demonstrated something remarkable in Iraq: a willingness on the part of the diverse ethnic and religious groups to disagree—peacefully—and then to compromise.

9 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 12:11:16pm

I see conservatives are now going to paint everything that’s happening as the worst thing ever and of course, it’s ALL Obama’s fault.

10 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:11:46pm

re: #9 Gus

I see conservatives are now going to paint everything that’s happening as the worst thing ever and of course, it’s ALL Obama’s fault.

Hold on, I’m sure someone will provide some links on this in a bit.

11 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 12:12:15pm
12 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:12:22pm

re: #3 klys

It’s funny how those with the least credibility or knowledge are always the ones talking the most.

Well it doesn’t help that the media loves giving these guys soap boxes.

13 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:13:00pm

re: #11 Gus

[Embedded content]

That’s different because you see, that was 2011 and this is 2014 and Ari has to keep his anti-Obama talking points consistent.

14 Skip Intro  Jun 16, 2014 12:13:12pm

Look who else is back at CBS News.

Lara Logan Makes Her First Post-Suspension Appearance On CBS News

huffingtonpost.com

15 lawhawk  Jun 16, 2014 12:13:18pm

Let’s do the time warp again.

I’m one of those folks who thought getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do for his war crimes and democide. What we did thereafter and the failures all along the way have made that decision (and the primary context of regime change due to WMD) look real bad. The surge did enough to extricate the US from the situation, and had Maliki allowed a SOFA where US forces had immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, this could have been delayed, if not avoided, but that wasn’t to be.

Sending troops back into Iraq isn’t going to solve things because the Iraqis still have to figure it out for themselves. Unless we’re going to have a permanent garrison there, the Iraqis have to solve things and the government there has to figure things out, though the Iraqi people have more or less figured it out for them. They don’t trust the Maliki government to do keep them safe, and the military trusts the government even less. If you want to restore confidence in the government there, it’s going to take not just eliminating the ISIS threat, but restoring professionalism to the military ranks (merit for advancement, and not crony-politics, which is the name of the game for the Maliki government).

16 Targetpractice  Jun 16, 2014 12:14:23pm

re: #9 Gus

I see conservatives are now going to paint everything that’s happening as the worst thing ever and of course, it’s ALL Obama’s fault.

Of course. Everything bad that happens on a Democrat’s watch is his fault, while everything good that happened is due to the work of a Republican president. Hence why they were happy to declare how successful their little excursion to Iraq had been…right up until the whole house of cards spontaneously combusted, at which point they began blaming Obama for ever being in the same room.

17 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 16, 2014 12:16:16pm

re: #15 lawhawk

Let’s do the time warp again.

I’m one of those folks who thought getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do for his war crimes and democide. What we did thereafter and the failures all along the way have made that decision (and the primary context of regime change due to WMD) look real bad. The surge did enough to extricate the US from the situation, and had Maliki allowed a SOFA where US forces had immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, this could have been delayed, if not avoided, but that wasn’t to be.

Sending troops back into Iraq isn’t going to solve things because the Iraqis still have to figure it out for themselves. Unless we’re going to have a permanent garrison there, the Iraqis have to solve things and the government there has to figure things out, though the Iraqi people have more or less figured it out for them. They don’t trust the Maliki government to do keep them safe, and the military trusts the government even less. If you want to restore confidence in the government there, it’s going to take not just eliminating the ISIS threat, but restoring professionalism to the military ranks (merit for advancement, and not crony-politics, which is the name of the game for the Maliki government).

But they got such a great object lesson 2003-2008 in how to run a government.
///

18 S'latch  Jun 16, 2014 12:16:28pm

“to send American forces back to Iraq”

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

no

19 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 16, 2014 12:18:45pm

KT is in good company.

20 jaunte  Jun 16, 2014 12:18:50pm
That alternative is to act boldly and decisively to help stop the advance of the forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)—without empowering Iran. This would mean pursuing a strategy in Iraq (and in Syria) that works to empower moderate Sunni and Shi’a without taking sectarian sides. This would mean aiming at the expulsion of foreign fighters, both al Qaeda terrorists and Iranian and Lebanese Hezbollah regular and special forces, from Iraq.

Kristol can name a dozen prominent individuals that fit this description off the top of his head, I’m sure.

21 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:19:32pm

This would require a willingness to send American forces back to Iraq. It would mean not merely conducting U.S. air strikes, but also accompanying those strikes with special operators, and perhaps regular U.S. military units, on the ground. This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads, and that we have not thrown in with the Iranians. It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces on terms that would allow us to demand the demobilization of Shi’a militias and to move to limit Iranian influence and to create bargaining chips with Iran to insist on the withdrawal of their forces if and when the situation stabilizes.

Anybody figure out what this word salad is supposed to be saying?

22 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 12:19:32pm

When you’ve lost Pat…

“Right now, what we did — and it was a great mistake to go in there,” Robertson explained, pointing out that Saddam Hussein’s “bomb maker” had said that the then-dictator “doesn’t know how to make an atomic bomb.”

“And so to sell the American people on weapons of mass destruction, he had WMD and was getting [concentrated uranium] yellowcake out of Africa and all of that, it was a lot of nonsense,” the TV preacher said. “We were sold a bill of goods, we should never have gone into that country!”

“As bad as Saddam Hussein was, he held those warring factions in check, and he contained those radical Islamists,” he continued. “Fix it, no? It’s too late to fix it. It’s unfixable. Those simmering animosities have been there for centuries.”

23 Kid A  Jun 16, 2014 12:19:52pm

Reposting from yesterday:

24 kirkspencer  Jun 16, 2014 12:19:58pm

re: #15 lawhawk

Let’s do the time warp again.

I’m one of those folks who thought getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do for his war crimes and democide. What we did thereafter and the failures all along the way have made that decision (and the primary context of regime change due to WMD) look real bad. The surge did enough to extricate the US from the situation, and had Maliki allowed a SOFA where US forces had immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, this could have been delayed, if not avoided, but that wasn’t to be.

Sending troops back into Iraq isn’t going to solve things because the Iraqis still have to figure it out for themselves. Unless we’re going to have a permanent garrison there, the Iraqis have to solve things and the government there has to figure things out, though the Iraqi people have more or less figured it out for them. They don’t trust the Maliki government to do keep them safe, and the military trusts the government even less. If you want to restore confidence in the government there, it’s going to take not just eliminating the ISIS threat, but restoring professionalism to the military ranks (merit for advancement, and not crony-politics, which is the name of the game for the Maliki government).

I, too, was ok with going and for pretty much the same reasons. I have one minor point of disagreement - we /could/ have done better.

The CPA - Coalition Provisional Administration - was an outgrowth of the total failure of the administration in the region. Put bluntly, they refused to allow any of the experts to plan the post-conflict stage and instead put it all in the hands of people who let ideology trump everything. The only way they could have made it worse would be to have actually made a plan to fail.

We may not have been successful even had we followed the plan, but every time I drag out the guidance manuals and see what we did in exactly the opposite fashion…

No. The same people saying “go” means I say “No.” Because once you’ve demonstrated that level of incompetence you don’t get a second chance.

25 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:21:12pm

This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads

“government-backed…death squads”?

Which government would that be, I wonder?

26 dog philosopher  Jun 16, 2014 12:21:23pm

just think, only a week ago we had no idea that radical insurgents would come from nowhere to create dangerous and possibly insolvable division that could lead to wwiii

and then there’s also that scary scary situation in iraq

27 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:22:00pm

The biggest mistake the Bush administration made IMO was not listening to any thoughtful criticism of the invasion and disregarding any critics even though they included some of Bush’s own father’s former advisers. Bush was too busy listening to Cheney and the other ultra-hawks. And for these people to have the nerve to act like the current problems are Obama’s fault is shamefully dishonest.

28 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:22:05pm

re: #26 dog philosopher

just think, only a week ago we had no idea that radical insurgents would come from nowhere to create dangerous and possibly insolvable division that could lead to wwiii

and then there’s also that scary scary situation in iraq

no wai, someone said here just the other day that Iraq was stable and a model for what we should have accomplished in Afghanistan!

29 Testy Toad T  Jun 16, 2014 12:22:21pm

re: #21 Bulworth

Anybody figure out what this word salad is supposed to be saying?

Once more, with feeling.

30 aagcobb  Jun 16, 2014 12:22:30pm
The simple fact is this: We are a country where poor teenagers are locked up for the slightest transgression, but with vanishingly few exceptions, elites are shielded from the consequences of their actions. If you’re a billionaire who funds calls for aggressive austerity at the expense of ordinary Americans, a banker who helped crash the global economy, or a pundit who pushed the country into a disastrous war, you’ll never be sanctioned. If anything, you’ll be rewarded with audiences to listen to you, firms to hire you, and producers to book you on Sunday morning shows.
Neocons deserve one thing: to be ignored.

slate.com

31 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:22:43pm

This would require a willingness to send American forces back to Iraq. It would mean not merely conducting U.S. air strikes, but also accompanying those strikes with special operators, and perhaps regular U.S. military units, on the ground. This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads, and that we have not thrown in with the Iranians. It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces on terms that would allow us to demand the demobilization of Shi’a militias and to move to limit Iranian influence and to create bargaining chips with Iran to insist on the withdrawal of their forces if and when the situation stabilizes.

Translation: If the US goes to war again there will be a pony.

32 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:23:10pm

re: #31 Bulworth

This would require a willingness to send American forces back to Iraq. It would mean not merely conducting U.S. air strikes, but also accompanying those strikes with special operators, and perhaps regular U.S. military units, on the ground. This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads, and that we have not thrown in with the Iranians. It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces on terms that would allow us to demand the demobilization of Shi’a militias and to move to limit Iranian influence and to create bargaining chips with Iran to insist on the withdrawal of their forces if and when the situation stabilizes.

Translation: If the US goes to war again there will be a pony.

Well, fuck that if there’s no unicorn.

33 Interesting Times  Jun 16, 2014 12:23:17pm

Speaking of word salad, wasn’t Bill Kristol the one who pushed McCain to choose Palin?

34 dog philosopher  Jun 16, 2014 12:23:30pm

Bill Kristol

fuck pundits

fuck ‘em

and that goes double for brooks brothers devotees with barbeque parties on martha’s vinyard to attend

35 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 16, 2014 12:23:48pm

re: #31 Bulworth

This would require a willingness to send American forces back to Iraq. It would mean not merely conducting U.S. air strikes, but also accompanying those strikes with special operators, and perhaps regular U.S. military units, on the ground. This is the only chance we have to persuade Iraq’s Sunni Arabs that they have an alternative to joining up with al Qaeda or being at the mercy of government-backed and Iranian-backed death squads, and that we have not thrown in with the Iranians. It is also the only way to regain influence with the Iraqi government and to stabilize the Iraqi Security Forces on terms that would allow us to demand the demobilization of Shi’a militias and to move to limit Iranian influence and to create bargaining chips with Iran to insist on the withdrawal of their forces if and when the situation stabilizes.

Translation: If the US goes to war again there will be a pony.

But will it be a secret Islamic pony?

36 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:25:46pm

re: #32 klys

Well, fuck that if there’s no unicorn.

PS the unicorn must fart sparkles and rainbows before I will consider it.

37 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:26:14pm

re: #33 Interesting Times

Speaking of word salad, wasn’t Bill Kristol the one who pushed McCain to choose Palin?

Yep.

38 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 16, 2014 12:27:16pm
39 Shazam  Jun 16, 2014 12:27:18pm

Of course the Right wants us to go back in. That would officially officially make it Obama’s War.

40 Skip Intro  Jun 16, 2014 12:27:24pm

Charles Pierce summarizes the guests on the Sunday “news” shows this week:

Wolfowitz’s appearance, and the lack of shackles and leg irons which attended it, was of a piece with one of the most remarkably oblivious performance by the teenage bookers who work on all The Sunday Showz. On a week in which all the predictable chickens came home to their predictable roosts, at least all those chickens and roosts predicted by all the people who were roundly ignored in 2002, there wasn’t a single guest on any of the shows who opposed the clusterfck in the first place. This is an astonishing bit of circular history. Before you launch the war, ignore all the people who knew that knocking over the regime would ignite sectarian violence and then, when the sectarian violence erupts, ignore those people again

They’re all Fox News now.

esquire.com

41 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:27:28pm
42 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:28:18pm

re: #40 Skip Intro

Charles Pierce summarizes the guests on the Sunday “news” shows this week:

esquire.com

Well of course, what would the people who accurately predicted this mess know?

///

43 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:28:47pm

I got an unbelievable deluge of wingnut hatred after David Corn retweeted this:

44 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 12:30:01pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

I got an unbelievable deluge of wingnut hatred after David Corn retweeted this:

[Embedded content]

These people never archived their email to a PST?

45 Kid A  Jun 16, 2014 12:30:26pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

46 dog philosopher  Jun 16, 2014 12:30:31pm

re: #28 klys

no wai, someone said here just the other day that Iraq was stable and a model for what we should have accomplished in Afghanistan!

i remember so well when george w bush explained to us that we were going to have to commit to perpetual military occupation of countries on the other side of the globe

47 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:31:40pm

re: #46 dog philosopher

i remember so well when george w bush explained to us that we were going to have to commit to perpetual military occupation of countries on the other side of the globe

it totally would have worked except we didn’t occupy enough countries, you see. it’s all because we left Pakistan and Syria alone.

///

48 jaunte  Jun 16, 2014 12:32:48pm

49 BlueSpotinAL  Jun 16, 2014 12:33:19pm

The Decision Points Theater at the W presidential library is no doubt still trying to convince people of warmongering. I wonder if recent events will make people take a closer look at the propaganda.

50 kirkspencer  Jun 16, 2014 12:34:19pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

I got an unbelievable deluge of wingnut hatred after David Corn retweeted this:

[Embedded content]

Everyone who complained should be asked what their position was on the lost White House emails under the Bush administration. (For the record I think that if those had supported the implications of the ones found, Rove among others would have worn orange for a while.)

51 Targetpractice  Jun 16, 2014 12:34:21pm

We’re a nation where a good portion of its population still honestly believe that Saddam had a WMD stockpile and just moved it to Syria so as to make Bush look bad. Why is it any surprise that the people who sold them that pile of bullshit are now looked to again to sell them on the case for returning to war?

52 lawhawk  Jun 16, 2014 12:34:54pm

re: #38 Pie-onist Overlord

Once again Felix Leiter proves why he’s the right man for the job. Reads people perfectly.

53 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:35:38pm

re:
#41

CoverUP!!! Appoint SPecial Prosecutor!!! outrageous!1 LIEsssss!!1 Scandal!!11 IMPEACH!!1

54 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 12:36:43pm

I give you Bill Kristol’s target audience:

npr.org

A quarter of Americans surveyed could not correctly answer that the Earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around, according to a report out Friday from the National Science Foundation.

55 EmmaAnne  Jun 16, 2014 12:37:47pm

re: #49 BlueSpotinAL

The Decision Points Theater at the W presidential library is no doubt still trying to convince people of warmongering. I wonder if recent events will make people take a closer look at the propaganda.

I hope so, but I fear not. It seems like the press, at least, has learned very little from the blizzard of lies they helped propagate to get us into the Iraq invasion. They aren’t angry at being lied to. They aren’t extra skeptical. They are little kids hoping for some war-flavored ice cream.

56 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:38:44pm

re:
#50

Unitary Executive Theory!!!1 LAalalalalalalalalalalalalalal I canthearyou LLALALAalalalalalalalllaall Ugot Bush dernagement syndrom!1 ShUTUP!!

57 CuriousLurker  Jun 16, 2014 12:38:52pm

re: #15 lawhawk

Sending troops back into Iraq isn’t going to solve things because the Iraqis still have to figure it out for themselves.

THIS. no one fought our Civil War for us, which cost us 620,000 men. And that’s just the soldiers—no telling how many civilians might have died from causes related to it.

People act as if Middle Easterners are somehow mentally or morally incapable of running democracies. How would we know when we’re continually interfering with things? How about we leave them the hell alone and let them figure it out for themselves?

Also, how about we don’t expect them to end up with American-style democracy because, y’know, they’re not American. Hell, even Israel—despite how people are always saying they’re “like us”—doesn’t have an American-style democracy, they have what works for them as a Jewish state in the Middle East with a completely different demographic mix than the one we have.

58 Testy Toad T  Jun 16, 2014 12:38:54pm

re: #55 EmmaAnne

You provide the pictures, I’ll provide the war.

59 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:39:15pm

re: #44 Kragar

These people never archived their email to a PST?

There are so many ways to lose email; in this case I’d have to say that if you blame Lerner for anything, it’s that she didn’t have a backup of her laptop hard drive.

They apparently had a limit of 500MB on their Outlook server (ridiculously low these days), so obviously if she wanted to keep anything she needed to download it and delete it from the server.

I’ve only been dealing with issues like this for 15+ years, what do I know?

60 lawhawk  Jun 16, 2014 12:39:29pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Of course it’s possible, just not when it relates to the Obama Administration.

Email crashes do happen. If you’ve got an outlook archive locally, there’s no remote copy from which to back up. If the local computer goes down, and is unrecoverable, whether due to virus or mechanical failure on the hard disk, you’re going to lose that local archieve.

You might be able to recover parts of it from elsewhere (the email chains back to the user in question, but that’s not always possible, especially if they’ve got the same kind of restriction on size of mailbox).

The takeaway here is that the lost emails weren’t done maliciously, and that it’s not meant to hide anything.

61 jaunte  Jun 16, 2014 12:39:37pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Just in from today’s Townhall promo email:

62 aagcobb  Jun 16, 2014 12:39:44pm

re: #55 EmmaAnne

I hope so, but I fear not. It seems like the press, at least, has learned very little from the blizzard of lies they helped propagate to get us into the Iraq invasion. They aren’t angry at being lied to. They aren’t extra skeptical. They are little kids hoping for some war-flavored ice cream.

That is what is amazing to me. Sure, let these people express their views on your show. But if you do, grill them about all the lies and mistakes they were party to in invading and occupying Iraq in the first place.

63 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:40:12pm

re: #57 CuriousLurker

THIS. no one fought our Civil War for us, which cost us 620,000 men. And that’s just the soldiers—no telling how many civilians might have died from causes related to it.

People act as if Middle Easterners are somehow mentally or morally incapable of running democracies. How would we know when we’re continually interfering with things? How about we leave them the hell alone and let them figure it out for themselves?

Also, how about we don’t expect them to end up with American-style democracy because, y’know, they’re not American. Hell, even Israel—despite how people are always saying they’re “like us”—doesn’t have an American-style democracy, they have what works for them as a Jewish state in the Middle East with a completely different demographic mix than the one we have.

We are pro-democracy and freedom in the Middle East …unless it takes a form that we don’t like, in which case BOMB THEM ALL.

64 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:41:34pm

And there’s a pretty clear paper trail of Lerner going to great lengths to recover info from the crashed hard drive, including sending it to the “information technology division.”

Another big outrage that turns into a big nothingburger in two days.

65 Skip Intro  Jun 16, 2014 12:42:12pm

re: #41 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Speaking of lost things, has anyone ever found the missing Exit Strategy Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield prepared for ending the Iraq War?

66 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 12:42:43pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

And there’s a pretty clear paper trail of Lerner going to great lengths to recover info from the crashed hard drive, including sending it to the “information technology division.”

Another big outrage that turns into a big nothingburger in two days.

Well you know she did that only to cover it up! Proof, I don’t need proof!

67 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 12:42:46pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

And there’s a pretty clear paper trail of Lerner going to great lengths to recover info from the crashed hard drive, including sending it to the “information technology division.”

Another big outrage that turns into a big nothingburger in two days.

Wingnuts subsist on nothingburger leftovers.

68 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 12:43:08pm

re: #65 Skip Intro

Speaking of lost things, has anyone ever found the missing Exit Strategy Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield prepared for ending the Iraq War?

“Bo ated it”

69 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 12:43:10pm

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

70 Timothy Watson  Jun 16, 2014 12:43:12pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

There are so many ways to lose email; in this case I’d have to say that if you blame Lerner for anything, it’s that she didn’t have a backup of her laptop hard drive.

They apparently had a limit of 500MB on their Outlook server (ridiculously low these days), so obviously if she wanted to keep anything she needed to download it and delete it from the server.

I’ve only been dealing with issues like this for 15+ years, what do I know?

You could work for an agency which limits its e-mail storage to 250MB an account like mine does.

71 kirkspencer  Jun 16, 2014 12:44:43pm

re: #69 Gus

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

“No, because you failed to send notification of intent to change prior to execution. I’m willing to pause, but I’ll document that the additional expenses are due to your changes after work was begun.”

72 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 12:45:11pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

There are so many ways to lose email; in this case I’d have to say that if you blame Lerner for anything, it’s that she didn’t have a backup of her laptop hard drive.

They apparently had a limit of 500MB on their Outlook server (ridiculously low these days), so obviously if she wanted to keep anything she needed to download it and delete it from the server.

I’ve only been dealing with issues like this for 15+ years, what do I know?

I probably get close to 1000 emails a week at work, mostly just status updates or shift change notes which get junked. Then we get the people who seem to think they need to send out 15mb attachments rather than just provide a link to the fileshare for a file. I end up having to sort and archive my mail about every 2 weeks.

Technically, we’re supposed to “SAVE EVERYTHING”, but practically speaking, no one does. We don’t have the resources or real ability to do so.

73 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 12:46:11pm

re: #69 Gus

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

Only too familiar. And if not “work work work”, they complain that the deadlines are approaching and nothing is done.

74 Skip Intro  Jun 16, 2014 12:46:12pm

re: #54 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

I give you Bill Kristol’s target audience:

npr.org

My gut feeling is if you constructed a Venn diagram of the sets of tea baggers, biblical fundamentalists, scientific illiterates, and Fox News viewers you’d end up with a perfect circle.

75 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 12:46:36pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

And there’s a pretty clear paper trail of Lerner going to great lengths to recover info from the crashed hard drive, including sending it to the “information technology division.”

Another big outrage that turns into a big nothingburger in two days.

The IRS policy said to retain the data for 6 months. How dare they not have the information years later!
/

76 freetoken  Jun 16, 2014 12:47:59pm

So, BP came out with their annual review of global energy.

Various headlines being generated (especially by the all-too-commonly mendacious financial media, who can give Fox News real competition as far as manipulating stories), but this one stood out to me:

Coal’s Share Of World Energy Demand Rises

Coal dominated world energy markets last year by supplying the biggest share of demand since 1970, making it the fastest growing fossil fuel, according to an annual review by BP.

Consumption grew 3% last year, driven by coal use in developing nations, according to a statement June 16 from Europe’s third-largest oil company. Use of renewables such as solar and wind also reached a record, accounting for 2.7% of all energy demand.

The findings are another indication that consumers are prioritizing cheap fuels over efforts to rein in greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming. Coal is the dirtiest fossil fuel, and use of it expanded at utilities from China to Germany.

[…]

77 kirkspencer  Jun 16, 2014 12:48:27pm

re: #71 kirkspencer

“No, because you failed to send notification of intent to change prior to execution. I’m willing to pause, but I’ll document that the additional expenses are due to your changes after work was begun.”

I know, adding to my own post, but I keep saying this in response to the IT and project people here.

Document. If nothing else start a time log that includes external events. When someone requests a change, log it. They insist on making it a verbal change and won’t send it in writing? Your call about whether to actually do it, but document the request.

And run the log through internal accounting, because nothing shuts down the idiots like beancounters saying “You are personally responsible for killing this quarter’s profits.”

78 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 16, 2014 12:48:49pm
79 freetoken  Jun 16, 2014 12:49:34pm

Which, btw, is not off topic.

Kristol and his like believe Iraq to be so existentially important to the US because Iraq probably has the second largest petroleum (of various qualities) resources left in the middle east, after KSA.

80 EPR-radar  Jun 16, 2014 12:51:08pm

re: #79 freetoken

Which, btw, is not off topic.

Kristol and his like believe Iraq to be so existentially important to the US because Iraq probably has the second largest petroleum (of various qualities) resources left in the middle east, after KSA.

What I’d like to know is what deals were done by the big oil companies while Iraq was propped up by the presence of US troops.

81 Stanley Sea  Jun 16, 2014 12:51:49pm

re: #69 Gus

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

You and me Mr.

More often than not right after I hit send the next email is changes to said job. Stupidity keeps me employed and busy I guess.

83 blueraven  Jun 16, 2014 12:53:55pm

re: #69 Gus

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

Nature of the beast in design, isn’t it?
Feel for you, been there sooo many times!

84 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 12:54:50pm

Youtube Video

Don’t you want to punch this smug praise that kind of intelligence? /

85 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 12:56:22pm
86 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 12:57:35pm
87 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 12:58:18pm

re:
#61

Well, if Townhall says “No one believes them (Obama Admin)” and well-regarded, non-bi-partisan, conservative outfits like the ACLJ say it’s the “most shameless stonewalling” ever, then we have to believe them.

//

88 CuriousLurker  Jun 16, 2014 12:59:10pm

re: #69 Gus

• Get project.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Work, work, work, work.

• Almost done.

• “Oh, just talked with so and so. Could you please hold off on the project. We have some changes coming up.”

[Flips desk.]

How about when trying to keep file versions organized? You end up with some variation of this:

file-v1.foo
file-v2-a.foo
file-v2-b.foo
file-v3.foo
file-v4.foo
file-v5.foo
file-v6.foo
file-v6-final.foo
file-v6-final-final.foo
file-v6-final-final-wtf-i-give-up-deskflip.foo
file-v7-sigh.foo
…

89 klys  Jun 16, 2014 12:59:15pm

re: #85 Gus

[Embedded content]

Seriously, the wingnuts only care about Iraq because they currently see it as a way to hammer the Obama administration. They don’t actually give a shit about the people who live in the country who have to live with the aftermath of their warmongering, or the troops who would be the boots on the ground.

This actually goes for anyone who is simply using this to hammer at the administration and hasn’t been bothered to care until it might satisfy their lust for violence porn.

90 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:00:55pm

re: #88 CuriousLurker

How about when trying to keep file versions organized? You end up with some variation of this:

file-v1.foo
file-v2-a.foo
file-v2-b.foo
file-v3.foo
file-v4.foo
file-v5.foo
file-v6.foo
file-v6-final.foo
file-v6-final-final.foo
file-v6-final-final-wtf-i-give-up-deskflip.foo
file-v7-sigh.foo
…

You’ve been spying no my HD! //

I get that regardless. Need to clean up a lot of useless initial work files.

91 klys  Jun 16, 2014 1:01:33pm

re: #90 Gus

You’ve been spying no my HD! //

I get that regardless. Need to clean up a lot of useless initial work files.

SHE WORKS FOR THE NSA!!!!

92 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 1:01:56pm

HOw comes Lerner didn’t keep all emails on harddrive hardcopy??!??!?! Appoint Special prosecutor so we can impeach!!1

93 CuriousLurker  Jun 16, 2014 1:02:05pm

Speaking of files, I have work to do.

Later, lizards.

94 Targetpractice  Jun 16, 2014 1:03:08pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

How can that be, when we’ve had so many assurances in recent days that there’s absolutely no way that you can ever lose data, especially government data?

95 Stanley Sea  Jun 16, 2014 1:03:45pm

OT, crying reading all the tweets in #RIPTonyGwynn

(Saw you there Kid A)

96 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 1:03:53pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Ran into a guy earlier

97 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 1:05:39pm

re:
#96

Research urself not going to do your research for you libtard troll!11

98 jaunte  Jun 16, 2014 1:06:52pm

re: #88 CuriousLurker

Ha, I was just working on Job #16949, Stage3, Versions1-4(Flexo).

99 aagcobb  Jun 16, 2014 1:07:57pm

re: #65 Skip Intro

Speaking of lost things, has anyone ever found the missing Exit Strategy Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield prepared for ending the Iraq War?

There is no exit.
Youtube Video

100 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:11:15pm

re: #19 GlutenFreeJesus

KT is in good company.

Unfortunately my opposition to more military action in Iraq puts me on Ron Paul’s side of the debate. Not much I can do about that.

101 aagcobb  Jun 16, 2014 1:12:47pm

re: #100 Killgore Trout

Unfortunately my opposition to more military action in Iraq puts me on Ron Paul’s side of the debate. Not much I can do about that.

Stopped clock and all.

102 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:14:37pm
103 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 16, 2014 1:15:04pm

retweeted by Sarah Palin.

still in middle school…

104 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:20:17pm

re: #103 Backwoods_Sleuth

retweeted by Sarah Palin.

[Embedded content]

still in middle school…

Republican base.

105 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 16, 2014 1:20:50pm
106 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:20:57pm
107 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:21:23pm
108 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:23:30pm

YOU’RE EITHER WITH US! OR YOU’RE WITH THE TERRORISTS!

109 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:23:36pm

re: #107 Gus

[Embedded content]

All the Halliburton/Cheney stuff reminded me to check in with Michael Moore. Poor dude is going through an ugly divorce. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

110 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:24:29pm

Well, actually, Michael Moore!

111 blueraven  Jun 16, 2014 1:24:54pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

All the Halliburton/Cheney stuff reminded me to check in with Michael Moore. Poor dude is going through an ugly divorce. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

IOW: Gus, you are just like Micheal Moore!

112 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:25:35pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

All the Halliburton/Cheney stuff reminded me to check in with Michael Moore. Poor dude is going through an ugly divorce. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

Give me a break. Haliburton/KBR was a freaking scam. And please don’t try that stupid old tired trick of reducing things to Michael Moore. Those days are over. Nice attempt at a straw man but you’ve failed.

113 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:26:34pm

Occupy!

114 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:27:04pm

#OccupyIraq //

115 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:27:07pm

re: #113 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Occupy!

Daily Kos has a page up about something, something!

116 blueraven  Jun 16, 2014 1:27:21pm

re: #113 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Occupy!

Outrage!

117 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:27:49pm

re: #116 blueraven

Outrage!

Jimmy Carter wargle bargle.

118 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:27:52pm

Cindy Sheehan!

119 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:29:06pm

re: #118 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Cindy Sheehan!

Antisemitic!

120 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:29:58pm

re: #116 blueraven

Outrage!

Indeed.

121 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:30:05pm

re: #119 Gus

Antisemitic!

Code Pink!

122 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:31:07pm

re: #121 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Code Pink!

Pallywood!

123 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:33:17pm

What happened to no boots on the ground?
Obama considers special forces to help in Iraq

The White House is considering sending a small number of American special forces soldiers to Iraq in an urgent attempt to help the government in Baghdad slow the nation’s rampant Sunni insurgency, U.S. officials said Monday.

While President Barack Obama has explicitly ruled out putting U.S. troops into direct combat in Iraq, the plan under consideration suggests he would be willing to send Americans into a collapsing security situation for training and other purposes.

Three U.S. officials familiar with ongoing discussions said the potential of sending special forces to Iraq is high on a list of military options that are being considered.

124 Gus  Jun 16, 2014 1:33:19pm

Wingnuts.

125 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:33:34pm

re: #122 Gus

Pallywood!

Unhinged!

126 Charles Johnson  Jun 16, 2014 1:34:00pm

At this point, I’m absolutely opposed to reinvading Iraq in any sense. Send in enough troops to protect any remaining vital assets, if possible. But the era of neocon nation-building needs to be OVER.

I’m not becoming an isolationist, but this eternal war mentality must end.

127 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:34:45pm
The mission almost certainly would be small: one U.S. official said it could be up to 100 special forces soldiers. It also could be authorized only as an advising and training mission — meaning the soldiers would work closely with Iraqi forces that are fighting the insurgency but not officially be considered as combat troops.

The troops would fall under the authority of the U.S. ambassador and would not be authorized to engage in combat, another U.S. official said. Their mission is “non-operational training” of both regular and counter terrorism units, which the military has interpreted to mean training on military bases, not in the field, the official said.

The three U.S. officials all spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the plans by name.

An Iraqi official did not deny the possibility of U.S. special forces returning to Iraq, but would only confirm that all options are being considered. The Iraqi official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive diplomatic issue more candidly.

128 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:35:58pm

I guess this is another “leak” to gauge public opinion.

129 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:39:13pm

re: #126 Charles Johnson

At this point, I’m absolutely opposed to reinvading Iraq in any sense. Send in enough troops to protect any remaining vital assets, if possible. But the era of neocon nation-building needs to be OVER.

I’m not becoming an isolationist, but this eternal war mentality must end.

For me it’s the lack of a wider regional policy. If someone has a convincing long term plan I’d love to hear it. I’m not interested in short term panicked reactions to things unexpectedly spiraling out of control. At this point I’m willing to accept doing nothing at all is the best option unless someone has a good plan.

130 blueraven  Jun 16, 2014 1:42:37pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

For me it’s the lack of a wider regional policy. If someone has a convincing long term plan I’d love to hear it. I’m not interested in short term panicked reactions to things unexpectedly spiraling out of control. At this point I’m willing to accept doing nothing at all is the best option unless someone has a good plan.

There are no good plans. There are only bad and worse plans.
This is the consequence of invading Iraq.

131 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 16, 2014 1:42:53pm

re: #72 Kragar

I probably get close to 1000 emails a week at work, mostly just status updates or shift change notes which get junked. Then we get the people who seem to think they need to send out 15mb attachments rather than just provide a link to the fileshare for a file. I end up having to sort and archive my mail about every 2 weeks.

Technically, we’re supposed to “SAVE EVERYTHING”, but practically speaking, no one does. We don’t have the resources or real ability to do so.

Well today this happened.

I received some complaints from people that they are unable to access a folder on the Sharepoint server. Well I checked and the folder is there and they have permissions to view it.

Only what, nobody bother to upload any CONTENT.

Dudes & Dudettes, I am your Friendly Sharepoint Admin but your managers are the content providers.

I’ll upload pictures of my grandkids for you to enjoy while you want for content from the managers. :)

132 Killgore Trout  Jun 16, 2014 1:45:34pm

re: #130 blueraven

There are no good plans. There are only bad and worse plans.
This is the consequence of invading Iraq.

I would even accept some messy and unpleasant realities. Military and diplomatic solutions are sometimes hard to swallow. But aimless flailing and stalling for time to come up with a better plan aren’t going to impress me. We got nothing, we should do nothing.

133 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 16, 2014 1:45:49pm

LOLWHUTFITS

134 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 16, 2014 1:46:20pm
135 Targetpractice  Jun 16, 2014 1:46:25pm

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

LOLWHUTFITS

[Embedded content]

I doubt Princess Dumbass of the North Woods could point out Iraq on a map.

136 wrenchwench  Jun 16, 2014 1:47:02pm

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

LOLWHUTFITS

[Embedded content]

Wimmin kin sit like taht ifn they wants, but not in a dress.

137 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 1:47:22pm

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

LOLWHUTFITS

[Embedded content]

Well that’s technically true since she would have quit.

138 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 1:47:30pm

Speaking of fucking idiots

139 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 1:47:45pm

re:
#133

It’s true. She would have quit already.

140 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 1:47:57pm

re: #134 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

She really needs to seek help for irrational hatred.

141 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:48:41pm

When ISIS meet Donald Trump, do you think they shake his hand?

142 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 1:48:41pm

re: #138 Kragar

Speaking of fucking idiots

[Embedded content]

Yes, that seems to be his argument. Quite the argument from someone who you know would shit his pants if he were to be tortured.

143 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 16, 2014 1:49:45pm

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

LOLWHUTFITS

[Embedded content]

That image is almost biblical, what with the snake and all. And Babylon is also in Iraq. Hmm. //

144 Bulworth  Jun 16, 2014 1:49:54pm

re:
#134

When did he supposedly do this? How did—-

Oh wait, sorry, this is Sarah Palin.

145 wrenchwench  Jun 16, 2014 1:50:15pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

Wimmin kin sit like taht ifn they wants, but not in a dress.

Norman Rockwell had her in pants.

146 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 1:51:04pm

Norman Rockwell is rolling over in his grave over the use of one of his images of a woman doing something being used to promote a woman whose claim to fame is that she quit on her state to become a right wing folk hero.

147 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 1:51:19pm
148 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 16, 2014 1:52:20pm

re: #145 wrenchwench

Norman Rockwell had her in pants.

[Embedded image]

Her footwear does not look like it would be OSHA-approved.

149 wrenchwench  Jun 16, 2014 1:52:29pm

re: #141 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

When ISIS meet Donald Trump, do you think they shake his hand?

Across the room from the rest of him?

150 Stanley Sea  Jun 16, 2014 1:54:18pm

Leaving work early to go watch USA USA USA USA.

Catch you later.

151 Skip Intro  Jun 16, 2014 1:55:45pm

re: #135 Targetpractice

I doubt Princess Dumbass of the North Woods could point out Iraq on a map.

I seem to recall that the Princess needed her dad to show her which direction the sun would rise from during her SP’s Alaska show.

152 Kragar  Jun 16, 2014 1:56:29pm

re: #133 Pie-onist Overlord

153 HappyWarrior  Jun 16, 2014 1:59:17pm

Really wingnuts if Sarah is such a doer then why hasn’t she actually ran for office since quitting on her state? Could it be that she loves taking advantage of suckers like you who will give her money because you think that she will use that money to run for office but will instead use it to enrich herself and her family? She’s every except the secret Muslim part that you claim about Obama- vain, narcissistic, unintelligent, and not willing to listen to anyone but herself.

154 Decatur Deb  Jun 16, 2014 2:01:14pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

And there’s a pretty clear paper trail of Lerner going to great lengths to recover info from the crashed hard drive, including sending it to the “information technology division.”

Another big outrage that turns into a big nothingburger in two days.

This is the Murdoch Century. Things don’t have to be true, they just have to be believable by those who want to believe.

155 Decatur Deb  Jun 16, 2014 2:05:04pm

re: #72 Kragar

I probably get close to 1000 emails a week at work, mostly just status updates or shift change notes which get junked. Then we get the people who seem to think they need to send out 15mb attachments rather than just provide a link to the fileshare for a file. I end up having to sort and archive my mail about every 2 weeks.

Technically, we’re supposed to “SAVE EVERYTHING”, but practically speaking, no one does. We don’t have the resources or real ability to do so.

It was “save everything” plus “user level” that kept our Pentagon field operating agency from taking the requirement very seriously. We had things to do—if it was important they’d have automated the housekeeping.

156 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 16, 2014 2:12:31pm

re: #100 Killgore Trout

Unfortunately my opposition to more military action in Iraq puts me on Ron Paul’s side of the debate. Not much I can do about that.

That’s not what I’m even talking about. But go on. It’s what you always do.

157 coin operated  Jun 17, 2014 12:18:20am

Fuckers are totally impervious to reality. Was in an FB argument with one of my wingnut friends. Funny…I didn’t know that the SOFA agreement in 2008 was an attempt by Obama to close Gitmo. Seriously…I should go look it up!!!11!!


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