Civil Liberties Hero Edward Snowden Commits Massive Civil Liberties Violation

Hands over 160,000 private emails to journalists and Glenn Greenwald
US News • Views: 47,034

I can’t help noticing that the most important and troubling aspect of Barton Gellman’s new NSA story for the Washington Post is not even mentioned in the text: In NSA-Intercepted Data, Those Not Targeted Far Outnumber the Foreigners Who Are.

But first, here’s what is in the text:

Among the most valuable contents — which The Post will not describe in detail, to avoid interfering with ongoing operations — are fresh revelations about a secret overseas nuclear project, double-dealing by an ostensible ally, a military calamity that befell an unfriendly power, and the identities of aggressive intruders into U.S. computer networks.

Months of tracking communications across more than 50 alias accounts, the files show, led directly to the 2011 capture in Abbottabad of Muhammad Tahir Shahzad, a Pakistan-based bomb builder, and Umar Patek, a suspect in a 2002 terrorist bombing on the Indonesian island of Bali. At the request of CIA officials, The Post is withholding other examples that officials said would compromise ongoing operations.

Secret nuclear weapons projects, aggressive hackers, double-dealing by purported allies — why is it supposed to be evil and wrong for the NSA to uncover these kinds of things? Why in the world would anyone be upset that their communications were intercepted if it helps the US government discover a secret nuclear project?

If my emails are collected by the NSA as part of this effort, I say, “Go ahead, collect away.” Call me crazy, but I want the US government to discover these things before it’s too late.

Also note that this latest release absolutely debunks the constant claims by the Greenwald crew that the NSA’s programs have nothing to do with terrorism, or that they’re ineffective at uncovering terrorists.

But even more to the point, and the reason for my headline above: hasn’t Edward Snowden himself committed a truly massive violation of civil liberties, by handing over these legally collected and properly redacted private communications to journalists — and to Glenn Greenwald?

Many other files, described as useless by the analysts but nonetheless retained, have a startlingly intimate, even voyeuristic quality. They tell stories of love and heartbreak, illicit sexual liaisons, mental-health crises, political and religious conversions, financial anxieties and disappointed hopes. The daily lives of more than 10,000 account holders who were not targeted are catalogued and recorded nevertheless.

And now they’re in the hands of people like Glenn Greenwald, Jacob Applebaum, Julian Assange and who knows who else.

I’m continually amazed at the capacity of the civil libertarian crowd to blithely violate the civil liberties of others in their dead-end quest for a purist libertarian ideal.

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356 comments
1 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 11:03:32am

Yeah but Charles, because NSA/government and they suck because.

2 Dr Lizardo  Jul 6, 2014 11:05:09am

Intimate details of

love and heartbreak, illicit sexual liaisons, mental-health crises, political and religious conversions, financial anxieties and disappointed hopes. The daily lives of more than 10,000 account holders

….in the hands of Julian Assage, Glenn Greenwald, etc.

What could possibly go wrong?!

////

3 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:07:13am

As I have mentioned in the case of other stories, we are getting killed because most people do not understand probability. I propose that the one math test you are required to pass to graduate from high school is basic bayesian analysis. If you cannot explain why a test that is 98% accurate might cause 20% of people given the test to be false positive, then you don’t get your diploma.

Edited: Added missing “false”.

4 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 11:09:34am

Benjamin Wittes over at Lawfare had the same reaction:

Finally, I want to say a word here about the ethics of this leak. Snowden here did not leak programmatic information about government activity. He leaked many tens of thousands of personal communications of a type that, in government hands, are rightly subject to strict controls. They are subject to strict controls precisely so that the woman in lingerie, the kid beaming before a mosque, the men showing off their physiques, and the woman whose love letters have to be collected because her boyfriend is off looking to join the Taliban don’t have to pay an unnecessarily high privacy price. Yes, the Post has kept personal identifying details from the public, and that is laudable. But Snowden did not keep personal identifying details from the Post. He basically outed thousands of people—innocent and not—and left them to the tender mercies of journalists. This is itself a huge civil liberties violation. And we should talk about it as such. I suspect, alas, that we won’t.

5 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:12:11am

re: #4 AntonSirius

Thanks - added a link to that post.

6 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 11:12:34am
Also note that this latest release absolutely debunks the constant claims by the Greenwald crew that the NSA’s programs have nothing to do with terrorism, or that they’re ineffective at uncovering terrorists.

And yet, Greenwald had access to this exact same information and chose not to run a story on it. Weird. It’s almost enough to make someone question his motives or something.

7 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:13:16am
8 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:13:50am
9 SteveMcGazi  Jul 6, 2014 11:17:01am

re: #3 Belafon

As I have mentioned in the case of other stories, we are getting killed because most people do not understand probability. I propose that the one math test you are required to pass to graduate from high school is basic bayesian analysis. If you cannot explain why a test that is 98% accurate might cause 20% of people given the test to be false positive, then you don’t get your diploma.

Edited: Added missing “false”.

I usually have no problem with somebody going OT, but the least you could do is make a point.

10 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 6, 2014 11:20:19am

re: #9 SteveMcGazi

I usually have no problem with somebody going OT, but the least you could do is make a point.

That post was on-topic.

IT’s funny that ‘ot’ abbreviates to ‘off-topic’, now that I think of it.

11 SteveMcGazi  Jul 6, 2014 11:24:20am

re: #10 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Ok so it’s on topic. You want to connect the dots between high school diploma qualification and Libertarian hysteria for me?

12 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:27:52am

I also have to point out that the fear-mongering headline of Gellman’s article is another type of distortion — because it’s very obvious that non-targeted people will vastly outnumber the targets themselves, in any operation like this. When the FBI or police investigate crimes, they interview far more people than just a single suspect.

This is the kind of deliberately misleading rubbish that has characterized this story from the beginning.

13 Shazam  Jul 6, 2014 11:30:12am

New GG talking point: the fact that lowly Snowden could get his hands on these private emails and have them published means there’s no oversight in the NSA. All of your emails are compromised because any dweeb in the NSA can get them! Destroy the NSA before another Snowden attacks!

14 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:32:09am

Oh, I see ex-Intercept employee @emptywheel is out there on Twitter, spinning like crazy to try to deflect people’s attention from Snowden’s massive civil liberties violation.

Somehow, it’s supposed to be the US government’s fault that Snowden outed all these private communications.

15 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:34:28am

re: #11 SteveMcGazi

My point was the hysteria over “oh no, 9 out of 10 people in the collection were not direct targets.” Yes. Because the pool of people the NSA is actually trying to target is so small compared to the population, it really just takes math to explain why.

My only concern in this story is why keep the pictures of guys showing off their chests, or women in lingerie. Eventually, that kind of stuff should expire.

16 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:36:04am
17 SteveMcGazi  Jul 6, 2014 11:36:15am

re: #15 Belafon

Actually, if you rely on math in this case you’re just talking price. Either the intelligence gathering has to be done or it doesn’t.

18 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:36:47am

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Oh, I see ex-Intercept employee @emptywheel is out there on Twitter, spinning like crazy to try to deflect people’s attention from Snowden’s massive civil liberties violation.

Somehow, it’s supposed to be the US government’s fault that Snowden outed all these private communications.

If the US government had never trusted Snowden, then he would never have been able to steal them. Of course its the government’s fault.
/

19 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 6, 2014 11:37:32am

re: #11 SteveMcGazi

Ok so it’s on topic. You want to connect the dots between high school diploma qualification and Libertarian hysteria for me?

Sure, I’d disagree with the ‘baysenian’ part of it and think that simple statitistics is what’s necessary, but in order to think about stuff like a surveillance program, you’ve got to be able to really think about the odds of being caught up in it.

Additionally, knowing statistics would tell you the NSA wants to deal with fewer emails, not more. They’re not trying to solve the natural language program, they’re trying to look for patterns, and so the whole point of the filters is to discard the irrelevant and look for the relevant. The program works badly if it sweeps up every guy who googled ‘tor’ and surveills them.

20 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:39:53am
21 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:43:09am

re: #19 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The only reason I bring up Bayesian stats is because it does a good job of identifying that the size of the target versus the population affects the outcome. I am not in any way good enough with that math to help narrow down what they are searching through. The fact that they are targeting second level contacts (used to be third) is a good start at narrowing, but could they go smaller and still find information? I don’t know.

22 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:43:53am
23 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:44:29am

I WAS RIGHT! ME! MEEE!

24 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:45:24am
25 BadExampleMan  Jul 6, 2014 11:46:00am

re: #18 Kragar

If the US government had never trusted Snowden, then he would never have been able to steal them. Of course its the government’s fault.
/

So Snowden is using the Otter defense? “You fucked up - you trusted me!”

26 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:46:45am
27 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 6, 2014 11:46:51am

re: #21 Belafon

The only reason I bring up Bayesian stats is because it does a good job of identifying that the size of the target versus the population affects the outcome.

Sure, I’m just saying normal probability would do that, too. Bayesian is fine, just overkill.

28 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 11:47:47am

re: #13 Shazam

New GG talking point: the fact that lowly Snowden could get his hands on these private emails and have them published means there’s no oversight in the NSA. All of your emails are compromised because any dweeb in the NSA can get them! Destroy the NSA before another Snowden attacks!

Wasn’t that one of the original GG talking points?

Also, it’s false, because Snowden had to scam other people’s passwords to access the info.

29 sagehen  Jul 6, 2014 11:49:14am

re: #15 Belafon

My only concern in this story is why keep the pictures of guys showing off their chests, or women in lingerie. Eventually, that kind of stuff should expire.

Define “eventually.”

The stuff in Snowdon’s dataset is several years old *now*, because it was almost two years ago that he grabbed it. It was fresher then.

30 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:49:40am
31 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 11:50:19am

re: #28 AntonSirius

Wasn’t that one of the original GG talking points?

Also, it’s false, because Snowden had to scam other people’s passwords to access the info.

It was. Though Glenn has bristled and deflected anytime he’s been seriously questioned about whether Snowden could access people’s computers in real time and read their private information, if not edit it without their consent.

32 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:51:52am
33 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:52:23am

re: #27 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The part I’m using is just “normal statistics”, where you set the two equations for the probably of two events equal to each other (I remember reading that whole section in a probability book and going “We remember a monks name for this?”). I’m definitely not wanting to get into the stuff about priors and the whole “Bayesian philosophy.”

OK, now I’m off topic.

34 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:53:32am
35 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 11:53:51am

re: #30 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Wasn’t it that he took his laptops with him to Moscow, but the contents were so encrypted that even he didn’t have access to the data on them? I believe that was the BS excuse for why he walked into the lion’s den with tens of thousands of pages of government secrets.

36 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 11:54:13am

I’m still marveling over this section of the Post article:

NSA analysts masked, or “minimized,” more than 65,000 such references to protect Americans’ privacy, but The Post found nearly 900 additional e-mail addresses, unmasked in the files, that could be strongly linked to U.S. citizens or U.S.residents.

Could be?

So three people credited in the byline on the piece, after a four month investigation, can’t positively verify that a single unminimized email address belongs to an American.

37 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 11:56:51am
38 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:56:59am

re: #36 AntonSirius

Their use of “could” in this instance is ambiguous. It could either mean that it might be linked but we didn’t try, or it could mean that that it was obviously easy to do so and they figured out the people.

39 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:57:44am

re: #35 Targetpractice

Wasn’t it that he took his laptops with him to Moscow, but the contents were so encrypted that even he didn’t have access to the data on them? I believe that was the BS excuse for why he walked into the lion’s den with tens of thousands of pages of government secrets.

The latest claim is that he destroyed all his copies before going to Russia.

40 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 11:58:27am

re: #37 Kragar

We’ve seen scientists lie. Obviously the entire profession is suspect.

41 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 11:59:44am

re: #37 Kragar

[Embedded content]

This kind of grade school BS is why I refuse to get drawn into arguments with these people. They’re not honest, and they’ll say anything to “win” in their own minds.

42 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 12:02:57pm

re: #41 Charles Johnson

This kind of grade school BS is why I refuse to get drawn into arguments with these people. They’re not honest, and they’ll say anything to “win” in their own minds.

“The NSA is doing their job.”
“Its their job to lie? Why are you calling the NSA liars?”

Yeah, they’re serious on the subject.
///

43 Shazam  Jul 6, 2014 12:03:40pm

I’m confused. Is Snowden a whistleblowing saint or a typical evil NSA employee? Is he now Schrodinger’s Snowden, where he’s both under the bus and on a pedestal, depending on the argument they need to make at the moment?

44 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 12:06:06pm

re: #38 Belafon

Their use of “could” in this instance is ambiguous. It could either mean that it might be linked but we didn’t try, or it could mean that that it was obviously easy to do so and they figured out the people.

Yes, but even by the second interpretation, they’re saying (paraphrased) “we can demonstrate have a strong connection to US citizens or residents” rather than “belonging to US citizens/residents” or “used by US citizens/residents”.

Is my mother’s email address “strongly linked” to me if she emails me every day?

Gellman et al seemed to very deliberately avoid saying that they identified some or all of those 900 addresses as being American.

45 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 12:06:57pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

The latest claim is that he destroyed all his copies before going to Russia.

Call me paranoid skeptical, but I find that claim to be highly doubtful. He had to have something to negotiate with (and being an embarrassment to the U.S. isn’t much leverage) or the Russians never would have let him stay.

46 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 12:11:48pm

re: #45 Bubblehead II

Call me paranoid skeptical, but I find that claim to be highly doubtful. He had to have something to negotiate with (and being an embarrassment to the U.S. isn’t much leverage) or the Russians never would have let him stay.

Yeah, I don’t seen Vlad “Protector of Civil Rights” Putin gladly allowing Snowden to stay unless there was something in the deal for him. Thumbing his nose at the US was all well and good, but that’s got a limited shelf life and doesn’t outweigh any potential damage done to future negotiations like trade deals.

47 GlutenFreeJesus  Jul 6, 2014 12:16:49pm

Collateral damage during a pointless war for oil? Oh it’s inevitable ie. they deserve it.

10,000 email accounts get caught up in the mix when our Government is tracking down nukes, terrorists, and not-really allies?

48 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 12:17:02pm

Given Emptywheel’s Twitter icon I have an immediate reason to use a grain of salt with everything they say.

49 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 12:17:26pm

re: #47 GlutenFreeJesus

Upding for using Morgo.

50 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 12:17:49pm

Sorry, but I have to.

51 BadExampleMan  Jul 6, 2014 12:18:24pm

The NSA outsourced background and security checks to a company that failed to complete thousands and then lied and said they had, and was able to avoid detection for years because of insufficient oversight. That was a failure, albeit not just the NSA’s.

The NSA failed to be paranoid enough about their own employees and contractors’ employees. They didn’t establish procedures and checks to raise a flag if someone was accessing data beyond their job needs, and they didn’t train people to resist and report the very basic social engineering Snowden did to steal what he stole. That was a failure.

Tempting to say outsourcing/privatization is at the root of all these failures. It resulted in confused and diluted lines of authority and stymied oversight. While, of course, costing extra.

52 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 12:18:35pm

re: #47 GlutenFreeJesus

Collateral damage during a pointless war for oil? Oh it’s inevitable ie. they deserve it.

10,000 email accounts get caught up in the mix when our Government is tracking down nukes, terrorists, and not-really allies?

[Embedded image]

With “files, that could be strongly linked to U.S. citizens or U.S.residents.”

53 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 12:20:54pm

Could be strongly. O.o

54 sagehen  Jul 6, 2014 12:22:03pm

re: #26 Kragar

[Embedded content]

And it’s not a very big theater (capacity 2600…)

55 J A P  Jul 6, 2014 12:22:15pm

re: #26 Kragar

Grew up in Montclair.

56 TedStriker  Jul 6, 2014 12:23:40pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Oh, I see ex-Intercept employee @emptywheel is out there on Twitter, spinning like crazy to try to deflect people’s attention from Snowden’s massive civil liberties violation.

Somehow, it’s supposed to be the US government’s fault that Snowden outed all these private communications.

Like a bully saying, “Look what you made me do!” or “Why are you hitting yourself?”

57 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 12:26:32pm
58 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 12:30:13pm

Gee. I wonder why the TSA has ordered more scrutiny of electronic devices being brought on board non stop flights to the U.S.?

Could it be that the NSA found something out while scarfing down all those E-Mails and Meta Data tags? Nah. We all know the NSA is incompetent and is only spying on innocent U.S. citizens.

US enhanced airport security checks target electronics

American officials have ordered some overseas airports with direct flights to the US to intensify screening of electronic devices.

Transport officials said in a statement passengers could be asked to switch on devices, and equipment that does not power up would not be allowed on board.

59 William Barnett-Lewis  Jul 6, 2014 12:30:18pm

re: #57 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Don’t even think about how much Google knows about you Dudebro…

60 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 12:34:46pm

re: #51 BadExampleMan

It’s true that there were things the NSA could and should have done to prevent Snowden’s thievery, but this doesn’t remove the basic responsibility from Snowden himself.

61 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 12:35:10pm
62 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 12:40:41pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Thing is, I’ve heard the first argument before. I think we all have at least once in our lives, somebody sneering about how the victim “flaunted their wealth/good fortune” and it was only a matter of time before somebody tried to steal it.

63 Romantic Heretic  Jul 6, 2014 12:42:46pm

re: #51 BadExampleMan

Tempting to say outsourcing/privatization is at the root of all these failures. It resulted in confused and diluted lines of authority and stymied oversight. While, of course, costing extra.

Which was the drive behind privatization in the first place; to move more taxpayer’s money into business hands.

The people that did this forgot that the purpose of a business is to make a profit. If they can increase their profit by cutting corners and indulging in actions of doubtful ethics then they will cut corners and engage in actions of doubtful ethics.

The simple fact is that private enterprise and public good are often going to be at odds. When it comes to a nation’s security there are more important things than profit.

64 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 12:45:40pm

I’m a supporter of Israel, but I’ve been increasingly disturbed by the government’s swing to the far right. And now this. Fucking horrible.

Youtube Video

65 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 12:47:51pm
66 Shazam  Jul 6, 2014 12:47:59pm

re: #28 AntonSirius

Wasn’t that one of the original GG talking points?

Also, it’s false, because Snowden had to scam other people’s passwords to access the info.

Their argument was always that NSA employees can spy on anyone—including, as Snowden himself claimed, the President—but that was the danger in itself, not that someone might leak it. Snowden didn’t do the spying himself. Their argument was that the stuff he took was evidence of abuses by other NSA employees, or the NSA in general. Thus, he was a saintly whistleblower.

Now the dubebros are arguing that Snowden’s act of thievery itself is evidence of abuse, on the part of the NSA. This has the two-sided effect of placing the blame on the NSA, somefuckinghow, and essentially throwing Snowden under the bus.

It’s all very headache-inducing.

67 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 12:50:48pm

re: #65 Gus

[Embedded content]

The idea of nuance is absolutely lost on these people. There’s no gray area for them, either you oppose all spying or you agree with spying on everybody. You can’t agree with spying on our enemies because, and this where they engage in screaming fits, WE might classified as enemies!

68 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 12:51:02pm

re: #62 Targetpractice

Thing is, I’ve heard the first argument before. I think we all have at least once in our lives, somebody sneering about how the victim “flaunted their wealth/good fortune” and it was only a matter of time before somebody tried to steal it.

The libertarian thing flirts with “freedom is another word for having nothing left to lose” a bit too often.

69 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 12:51:05pm

re: #65 Gus

That’s one of my Greenwald cult stalkers. 11 followers.

70 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 12:51:45pm

Blocked

71 Shazam  Jul 6, 2014 12:51:55pm

re: #65 Gus

As long as one child is saved, those NSA-supporting fascists will be okay with some people’s emails being read by random suits mass murder by the government!!!

72 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 12:52:05pm

Oh, and look who’s following him. It’s a stalker convention.

73 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 12:55:18pm
74 Shazam  Jul 6, 2014 12:56:18pm

re: #73 Gus

If they really want to stand with Snowden they can always move to Russia.

75 KiTA  Jul 6, 2014 12:56:20pm

Eagerly awaiting the day Putin gets tired of using Snowden against us and cuts him loose. It should be funny to see him cry about poor Internet access in some deep and dank jail.

Ditto when Greenwald is finally drummed out of the village for being so full of shit. Figure one of these days he’s going to do something like go on an epic twitter rant against someone more egotistical than him (Beck or Rush, perhaps?) and that’ll be the end of it.

76 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 12:59:21pm

re: #75 KiTA

Eagerly awaiting the day Putin gets tired of using Snowden against us and cuts him loose. It should be funny to see him cry about poor Internet access in some deep and dank jail.

Ditto when Greenwald is finally drummed out of the village for being so full of shit. Figure one of these days he’s going to do something like go on an epic twitter rant against someone more egotistical than him (Beck or Rush, perhaps?) and that’ll be the end of it.

And if something happens to Putin’s regime before then there will be an outburst from Greenwald claiming credit for the overthrow via the power of the Dudebro.
//

77 bratwurst  Jul 6, 2014 1:02:02pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

I’m a supporter of Israel, but I’ve been increasingly disturbed by the government’s swing to the far right. And now this. Fucking horrible.

[Embedded content]

Video

Get ready for a strongly worded email from Buck (or one of the other LGF page warriors) for daring to be critical.

78 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 1:02:07pm

re: #72 Charles Johnson

Oh, and look who’s following him. It’s a stalker convention.

He’s one strange person. Blocked him last year.

79 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 1:02:37pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

I’m a supporter of Israel, but I’ve been increasingly disturbed by the government’s swing to the far right. And now this. Fucking horrible.

[Embedded content]

The Israeli court that gave the cousin of the Palestinian who was kidnapped and apparently burned to death should be held accountable for giving him house arrest even though the videos appear to show border police beating the crap out of him. They are supposed to be better than that.

I hope the family sues the heck out of those border guards - better yet, they should demand that those border police be arrested and held accountable for their brutal assault on him. He’s down on the ground all while they’re kicking him. That’s just unacceptable.

The calls by the families of both the three Israeli teens who were brutally murdered and the Palestinian family whose own son was brutally killed will go and are going unheeded. The extremists - on both sides - are pulling strings and whatever moderates are around are being drowned out of the conversation entirely.

In a region where backing down is seen as a weakness, not a position of strength, Israel’s restraint against Palestinians is seen as backfiring, so going after Palestinians (both the terror groups that are launching attack after attack of mortars and rockets and those who living in Gaza or the West Bank and just want to get on with their own lives) is treated as fair game. Palestinians don’t see any difference between Israelis in uniform and teens, because they’re all going to end up in the military.

What to do? I think they’re going to take two tacts - one will involve going after Hamas even more than they are now, but the second must involve charging and prosecuting those Israelis involved in the murder of the Palestinian and the assault of his cousin. And to hand down sentences that would be appropriate to the circumstances - life in prison to the murderers of the teen, and a lengthy sentence for the border police involved in the assault. They need to do this if they want to get any kind of trust going even at the back-channels levels.

But there’s also a wrinkle. Abbas probably doesn’t mind Israeli forces going after Hamas, whether in Gaza or the West Bank. It improves his position since it weakens Hamas. Of course, he runs the risk of being called a collaborator, but if he can get Israelis to “back down” then he comes out ahead. That’s where I think this is headed.

80 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 1:05:32pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Oh, I see ex-Intercept employee @emptywheel is out there on Twitter, spinning like crazy to try to deflect people’s attention from Snowden’s massive civil liberties violation.

Somehow, it’s supposed to be the US government’s fault that Snowden outed all these private communications.

He cannot destroy any civil liberties because he’s a libertarian. That’s un-possible, because freedom.

81 William of Orange  Jul 6, 2014 1:09:09pm

I’M STILL CELEBRATING!!!!

82 Eventual Carrion  Jul 6, 2014 1:09:42pm

re: #67 Targetpractice

The idea of nuance is absolutely lost on these people. There’s no gray area for them, either you oppose all spying or you agree with spying on everybody. You can’t agree with spying on our enemies because, and this where they engage in screaming fits, WE might classified as enemies!

Don’t talk about overthrowing the government and you won’t be classified as an enemy. If you talk about overthrowing our duly elected government, then you are an enemy of the USA. Article 3 section 3 constitution. make war against the USA and that is treason, punishable by any means congress says.

83 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 1:10:56pm

re: #81 William of Orange

Youtube Video

85 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 1:21:07pm

Don’t know why I did it and I am probably going to regret it, but I am now on Twitter under this nick.

86 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 1:23:02pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

I’m a supporter of Israel, but I’ve been increasingly disturbed by the government’s swing to the far right. And now this. Fucking horrible.

[Embedded content]

Video

And Dim Jim defends it.

87 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 1:26:09pm
88 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 1:26:18pm

re: #85 Bubblehead II

Don’t know why I did it and I am probably going to regret it, but I am now on Twitter under this nick.

Followed. Make sure to replace the egg which scare people off. :D

89 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 1:27:37pm
90 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 1:29:09pm

...

91 Killgore Trout  Jul 6, 2014 1:29:09pm

re: #84 lawhawk

Calls grow for IDF/IAF operations against Gaza as rocket fire continues.

I’m not really sure how effective an incursion into Gaza would be. For Hamas it would be a short term inconvenience but they’re playing a long game anyways.

92 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 1:30:56pm

re: #88 Gus

Followed. Make sure to replace the egg which scare people off. :D

Have to find my avatar pic again. Something tells me I can’t download back from LGF.

93 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 1:31:39pm
94 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 1:31:53pm
95 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 1:32:01pm

re: #92 Bubblehead II

Have to find my avatar pic again. Something tells me I can’t download back from LGF.

96 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 1:33:17pm

re: #85 Bubblehead II

Don’t know why I did it and I am probably going to regret it, but I am now on Twitter under this nick.

Do searches and find some good people to follow.

97 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 1:33:38pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Israel’s not going to commit to a ground offensive into Gaza. Not for this. It would take a whole lot worse.

Had those tweets earlier this week been true (when IDFSpokesman was hacked) - that Hamas had not only targeted but damaged the Dimona reactor - then a ground response would have been in the cards.

It would take a serious loss of life to go that route. Instead, watch the IAF and IDF engage in counter battery fire and use air assaults against those firing mortars/rockets into Israel (the route they’re in now).

98 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 1:33:57pm

re: #85 Bubblehead II

Don’t know why I did it and I am probably going to regret it, but I am now on Twitter under this nick.

And get rid of the egg asap.

99 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 1:34:27pm

re: #95 Gus

[Embedded image]

Thanks.

100 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 1:34:46pm

Conservative Troll gets her comeuppance in glorious fashion:

Woman’s Attempt To Troll Liberals Backfires When Someone Notices This Disturbing Similarity

Had to get the cache, probably because Addicting Info’s server is crashing.

Did I say it’s f’ing glorious?

101 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 1:35:04pm

re: #98 Stanley Sea

And get rid of the egg asap.

Done.

102 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 1:35:05pm

re: #85 Bubblehead II

Don’t know why I did it and I am probably going to regret it, but I am now on Twitter under this nick.

Followed.

103 Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 6, 2014 1:35:25pm

For days now I have been trying to figure out why all the ads on here on LGF have been trying to encourage me to hook up with beautiful Asian girls.

It was only just this morning that it dawned on me that all the immigration related stories of the the past week just might have something to do with it.

:P

104 William of Orange  Jul 6, 2014 1:36:16pm

re: #83 Kragar

Hahaa! I know you love me!!!!

105 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 1:36:45pm

re: #103 Eclectic Cyborg

Yes, I get the same ads. That is why I paid for a subscription.

106 Amory Blaine  Jul 6, 2014 1:47:46pm

More on what the Wheaton College injunction does (and does not) mean for contraception coverage

…..In her Wheaton College dissent, Justice Sotomayor accuses the majority of disregarding its own four-day-old precedent in granting an injunction against enforcement of the contraception mandate: “After expressly relying on the availability of the religious-nonprofit accommodation to hold that the contraceptive coverage requirement violates RFRA as applied to closely held for-profit corporations, the Court now … retreats from that position.” In so doing, Justice Sotomayor wrote, the Court’s majority “evinces disregard for even the newest of the Court’s precedents and undermines confidence in this institution.” Indeed, she suggested, the Court had been dishonest: “Those who are bound by our decisions usually believe they can take us at our word. not so today.”

107 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 1:53:00pm

re: #106 Amory Blaine

Yup. It took all of less than a week for the Court to go and expand Hobby Lobby beyond what the majority claimed was a limited decision. Had the court denied cert, they would have maintained the limited outcome. Instead, they’ve opened the door to more mischief, and they’re also indicating that the very method that they were lauding as an alternative is itself unconstitutional.

Hobby Lobby opened the door to so much mischief on so many fronts that its effects will be felt for a long time - in ways that the majority never even envisioned, primarily because it ignores decades of treatment of corporations under corporate law.

108 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 1:55:20pm
109 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 1:58:10pm

re: #100 Ryan King

Conservative Troll gets her comeuppance in glorious fashion:

Woman’s Attempt To Troll Liberals Backfires When Someone Notices This Disturbing Similarity

Did I say it’s f’ing glorious?

110 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 1:58:18pm

re: #108 Kragar

Heroes for who? The Russian government? The Chinese?

Context is everything.

They might also be heroes for the dudebros, but they aren’t anyone to be taken seriously since their intent is to undermine US national security and doing so benefits those who wish to do the nation harm.

111 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 1:59:54pm

Gitmo detainees’ lawyers invoke Hobby Lobby decision in court filing

“….The detainees’ lawyers said courts have previously concluded that Guantanamo detainees do not have “religious free exercise rights” because they are not “persons within the scope of the RFRA.”

But the detainees’ lawyers say the Hobby Lobby decision changes that.

……..
Lawyers for the detainees also contend that both Hassan and Rabbani are being prevented from participating in communal prayers because they are on hunger strike. “

112 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 2:00:10pm

Well, I’m making Caribbean Jerk Chicken. What’s a good side? Rice, potatoes or corn on the cob?

113 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 2:00:41pm

re: #112 Pie-onist Overlord

Rice sounds good.

114 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 2:02:39pm

re: #112 Pie-onist Overlord

Well, I’m making Caribbean Jerk Chicken. What’s a good side? Rice, potatoes or corn on the cob?

Rice.

115 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 2:02:55pm

Throw in the corn on the cob too.

116 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 2:04:04pm
117 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 2:04:21pm
118 Lidane  Jul 6, 2014 2:05:41pm
119 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 2:06:24pm
120 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 2:06:36pm
121 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 2:07:26pm

re: #118 Lidane

Boehner declined to say which executive actions he’ll challenge when asked Wednesday, nor did he get specific in his memo to colleagues declaring his intentions.

He’s still trying to figure it out.

122 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 2:08:13pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

Empires have gotten a lot smaller these days.

123 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 2:10:29pm

re: #112 Pie-onist Overlord

Well, I’m making Caribbean Jerk Chicken. What’s a good side? Rice, potatoes or corn on the cob?

Ha, you just helped with my dinner decision. Jerk chicken breast.

I made a batch of re-fried beans, so that will be my accompaniment.

124 Timothy Watson  Jul 6, 2014 2:11:52pm

re: #111 jaunte

Gitmo detainees’ lawyers invoke Hobby Lobby decision in court filing

Anyone remember the good ol’ days when conservatives were worried about the unintended consequences of governmental action?

Good times, good times.

125 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 2:12:11pm

re: #112 Pie-onist Overlord

Well, I’m making Caribbean Jerk Chicken. What’s a good side? Rice, potatoes or corn on the cob?

grilling up some garlic herb chicken later, serving it with pesto alfredo sauce and some pasta

126 BlueSpotinAL  Jul 6, 2014 2:12:35pm

re: #124 Timothy Watson

Anyone remember the good ol’ days when conservatives were worried about the unintended consequences of governmental action?

Good times, good times.

This is the fault of those activist judges.

127 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 2:13:19pm

re: #124 Timothy Watson

At some point I expect they’ll have to rule that Gitmo detainees don’t have a true religion.

128 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 2:14:52pm

re: #127 jaunte

At some point I expect they’ll have to rule that Gitmo detainees don’t have a true religion.

No, they’ll have to rule that their views aren’t deeply held religious beliefs. ///

129 gwangung  Jul 6, 2014 2:15:24pm

re: #124 Timothy Watson

Anyone remember the good ol’ days when conservatives were worried about the unintended consequences of governmental action?

Idiots think that the law of unintended consequences don’t apply to conservatives.

130 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 2:25:26pm

re: #106 Amory Blaine

More on what the Wheaton College injunction does (and does not) mean for contraception coverage

Re the old fogies on the SCOTUS

Your old road is
Rapidly agin’
Please get out of the new one
If you can’t lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin’.

— Dob Bylan

131 Lidane  Jul 6, 2014 2:26:01pm

re: #124 Timothy Watson

Anyone remember the good ol’ days when conservatives were worried about the unintended consequences of governmental action?

Good times, good times.

I’m waiting for the first personal injury lawsuit that goes after the owners of the company directly by using the Hobby Lobby ruling. After all, if the corporation is a direct reflection of the owners for religious objections then surely it’s a direct reflection of them in terms of liability.

Should be fun.

132 thedopefishlives  Jul 6, 2014 2:30:44pm

re: #131 Lidane

I’m waiting for the first personal injury lawsuit that goes after the owners of the company directly by using the Hobby Lobby ruling. After all, if the corporation is a direct reflection of the owners for religious objections then surely it’s a direct reflection of them in terms of liability.

Should be fun.

That’s where the limited scope of the ruling kicks in, don’t ya know.

133 wrenchwench  Jul 6, 2014 2:31:01pm

Link to the original article.

134 Teukka  Jul 6, 2014 2:34:35pm

re: #131 Lidane

I’m waiting for the first personal injury lawsuit that goes after the owners of the company directly by using the Hobby Lobby ruling. After all, if the corporation is a direct reflection of the owners for religious objections then surely it’s a direct reflection of them in terms of liability.

Should be fun.

Only a question of when, not if, a lawsuit Hobby Lobbys and Wheaton Colleges way. I’ve only glossed over the SC(R)OTUS decision, but from what I understand the right to deny certain contraceptives is a blanket one, no exceptions given.
Which will most assuredly have unintended consequences unless SCOTUS decides to back out of the decision.
Something which I am not looking forward to or find fun.
Not because of the massive negative effect it will have on the public image of the right in your country, that effect actually is the only consolation compared to the rest of the effects.

135 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 2:37:07pm

John Cole being an asshole, as usual, doing his usual suck-up to Glenn.

balloon-juice.com

136 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 2:38:45pm

Looks like Cole’s readers are starting to get fed up with his crap.

137 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 2:39:11pm

re: #109 Pie-onist Overlord

Thanks, I was having ‘techrikal diffurculteez’

138 thedopefishlives  Jul 6, 2014 2:40:11pm

re: #136 Charles Johnson

Looks like Cole’s readers are starting to get fed up with his crap.

I think that’s one of the most remarkable things I’ve read today.

139 CuriousLurker  Jul 6, 2014 2:41:12pm

re: #136 Charles Johnson

Looks like Cole’s readers are starting to get fed up with his crap.

Yeah, I was just reading that. A good portion of them are pushing back.

140 wrenchwench  Jul 6, 2014 2:42:04pm

re: #136 Charles Johnson

Looks like Cole’s readers are starting to get fed up with his crap.

One of ‘em:

Johnson and his joint pile up a load of evidence and analysis to back up their opinions, and this joint does nothing but make fun of that. Yeah, like Baud, I think I know which place is more worth spending time with.

All I can say is Welcome, hatchlings.

141 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 2:42:25pm
142 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 2:42:51pm

But the really important thing for John Cole: will he get a passive aggressive link from the Mighty Greenwald again?

That’s what it’s about.

143 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 2:45:54pm

I’m ready for some more wingnut on wingnut action.

144 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 2:50:17pm

re: #134 Teukka

Only a question of when, not if, a lawsuit Hobby Lobbys and Wheaton Colleges way. I’ve only glossed over the SC(R)OTUS decision, but from what I understand the right to deny certain contraceptives is a blanket one, no exceptions given.
Which will most assuredly have unintended consequences unless SCOTUS decides to back out of the decision.
Something which I am not looking forward to or find fun.
Not because of the massive negative effect it will have on the public image of the right in your country, that effect actually is the only consolation compared to the rest of the effects.

Between Hobby Lobby and the disgusting Xenophobia of Murrieta I see the voting for Dems going up. And up and up.

As always, birth control is used by women red and blue, and those with a semblance of a brain will vote accordingly.

Minorities gaining in strength? They just got the best rallying cry.

Glass half full.

145 Ryan King  Jul 6, 2014 2:50:40pm

I sent ‘rockin my Crocs with the knee high socks’ to the Beastie Boys on their web contact form.

I hope I at least get a signed CD or t shirt for that brilliance.

146 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 2:51:27pm

I suspect this is all part of Greenwald’s diabolical hackneyed plan to collect every PIN number in the world, pull off an incredibly daring global heist that will garner him trillions of dollars, and then dump David Miranda for George Clooney.

Considering that we’re talking about Glenn Greenwald, does any of it even have to make sense?

147 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 2:53:17pm

I don’t understand those guys. First they’re like, “LGF is washed up, they’re irrelevant!” Then 2 minutes later they’re like, “OMG Charles Johnson over at LGF said something I don’t agree with and here’s why!”

148 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 2:53:30pm

Leaving aside the issue of justification, NSA is to blame anyway - for letting the likes of Snowden steal the data. If you gather this kind of information, make sure that it’s impossible - for all practical intents and purposes - to steal it. So, yes, NSA is responsible too.

149 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 6, 2014 2:54:49pm

re: #148 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

It’s like leaving unsecured weapons around. But Snowden is still the one taking potshots.

150 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 2:54:58pm

re: #148 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

The only way to make impossible to steal is to make it inaccessible, which would make it useless.

151 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 2:55:58pm

re: #150 Belafon

Not really, unless you’re saying that Snowden would have been able to steal it under any circumstances.

152 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 2:56:24pm

The other thing people are missing here about the Gellman story is that it’s about a specific case of the bomb maker, Shahzad. This wasn’t just random metadata collection. It was basically a stake out of Shahzad. Specifically targeted surveillance. It wasn’t some random voyeuristic activity. And of course the NSA can get a whole boatload of information during these operations. There are methods to minimize what’s swept up during these op.

153 Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 6, 2014 2:58:38pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

Derp Vader.

154 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 2:59:25pm

re: #150 Belafon

Also, it’s not for nothing that I added “for all practical intents and purposes”. Logically, many things are possible. But if only extremely (and periodically) well-vetted persons have access to this information, then, unless one of them goes crazy, yes, the information won’t be stolen. Whether Snowden had direct access to this particular batch, or whether he stole some passwords from some NSA dupes, he shouldn’t have been able to do it. That is an obvious NSA oversight and thus their responsibility.

155 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 2:59:33pm

RE

2002 Bali bombings

The 2002 Bali bombings occurred on 12 October 2002 in the tourist district of Kuta on the Indonesian island of Bali. The attack killed 202 people (including 88 Australians, 38 Indonesians, 27 Britons, 7 Americans, 6 Swedish citizens and 3 Danish citizens). A further 240 people were injured.

202 dead.

156 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:00:05pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

But the really important thing for John Cole: will he get a passive aggressive link from the Mighty Greenwald again?

That’s what it’s about.

Attention-seeking behavior due to a belief that attention = approval.

157 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 6, 2014 3:00:56pm

re: #152 Gus

The other thing people are missing here about the Gellman story is that it’s about a specific case of the bomb maker, Shahzad. This wasn’t just random metadata collection. It was basically a stake out of Shahzad. Specifically targeted surveillance. It wasn’t some random voyeuristic activity. And of course the NSA can get a whole boatload of information during these operations. There are methods to minimize what’s swept up during these op.

The fundamental thing people don’t realize is that the NSA wants to filter out stuff. It wants to discard the irrelevant.

158 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:02:02pm

re: #151 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Not really, unless you’re saying that Snowden would have been able to steal it under any circumstances.

But this information was not unsecured - Snowden had to trick co-workers into giving him their passwords to access it.

Yes, the NSA could have done more to protect against people like Snowden, but making this kind of theft “impossible” is… impossible. Determined thieves will always find a way.

159 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 3:02:08pm

re: #151 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Here’s a high level idea of how their system is probably set up: They have a bunch of computers connected to the internet, phones and whatever other public electronic system they want to connect to. Then they have an off network system that contains all of their data. So there has to be a way to get the data between those systems. So that’s one weak link. Then, that data occasionally goes to other groups, since it’s now property of the executive. There’s the second weak point.

I work at a place that has a sign that says “No recording devices.” I keep wanting to find a picture of a brain to stick on it.

160 thedopefishlives  Jul 6, 2014 3:02:36pm

re: #157 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The fundamental thing people don’t realize is that the NSA wants to filter out stuff. It wants to discard the irrelevant.

You mean that the family vinegar pie recipe is NOT a vital state secret that’s the subject of an NSA investigation? LIES! LIES AND SLANDER!

161 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:03:13pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

But this information was not unsecured - Snowden had to trick co-workers into giving him their passwords to access it.

Yes, the NSA could have done more to protect against people like Snowden, but making this kind of theft “impossible” is… impossible. Determined thieves will always find a way.

Making it impossible is impossible, and I never said otherwise. Making it impossible for all practical purposes - yes, it’s possible. That Snowden duped some idiots into giving him their passwords shows that NSA let idiots access this information in the first place.

162 thedopefishlives  Jul 6, 2014 3:04:31pm

re: #161 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Making it impossible is impossible, and I never said otherwise. Making it impossible for all practical purposes - yes, it’s possible. That Snowden duped some idiots into giving him their passwords shows that NSA let idiots access this information in the first place.

And there I’m going to disagree with you. The vast majority of “data breaches” that one hears about on a regular basis? Social engineering hacks that convince users with sensitive business data access to give up passwords or other vital security info to an unauthorized user. It’s the oldest and easiest form of hacking.

163 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:05:24pm

re: #162 thedopefishlives

And my point is that people susceptible to such tricks have no business having access to such data.

164 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 3:05:57pm

re: #161 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Tell me, how would you find all of the spies we’ve had over the decades. Can you look at them and tell?

Yes, you can make it harder and harder to steal data, but only by making it harder and harder to use the data. Which contradicts the reason for collecting it.

165 thedopefishlives  Jul 6, 2014 3:06:21pm

re: #163 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

And my point is that people susceptible to such tricks have no business having access to such data.

Yeah, except that’s the majority of people. That’s the point I’m getting at.

166 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:06:48pm

We’re not talking about an average computer user here. We’re talking about supposedly highly qualified professionals who, nevertheless, failed to follow the protocol. “Oh, it’s Eddie - so it’s OK to send him the password”. Not.

167 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:07:13pm

re: #165 thedopefishlives

Yeah, except that’s the majority of people. That’s the point I’m getting at.

And this majority has no business being at NSA.

168 Dr Lizardo  Jul 6, 2014 3:07:21pm

OT, but this is sort of cool here in Ostrava.

On weekends and holidays, from now until August 16th, our local public transportation company will be running a historic electric trolleybus from Ostrava’s main train station to the local zoo and back. I might have to hop on this baby for a bit of nostalgia. Price is good - about $1.50 for the trip.

Here’s a photo gallery:

moravskoslezsky.denik.cz

169 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 3:07:48pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

But this information was not unsecured - Snowden had to trick co-workers into giving him their passwords to access it.

Whenever the subject comes up among my friends, I mention that not-so-minor detail and not one of them even knows about it, and some don’t want to hear about it because it skews the cozy narrative they’ve heard. Frustrating, especially considering my friends aren’t dummies.

170 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 3:08:21pm

re: #157 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The fundamental thing people don’t realize is that the NSA wants to filter out stuff. It wants to discard the irrelevant.

I have it on good authority that the NSA really does want to know everything about everyone, because the government is evil and can’t be trusted.

171 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:08:34pm

re: #161 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

If I’ve learned anything in 20+ years of dealing with software security issues, it’s that there’s no way to make it impossible — even qualified for “practical purposes” — for someone to get in. If they’re determined enough, they WILL get in. It really is that simple. There’s no such thing as perfect security.

I’m not excusing the NSA of all responsibility. They could and should have done more to guard against people like Snowden. But the thief is the one ultimately responsible for the theft.

172 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:09:51pm
173 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:11:11pm

re: #164 Belafon

Really, in Snowden’s case it wouldn’t make access *any* harder for those, who actually had business accessing this data. Which includes none of the idiots who gave him their passwords. Solution? Training, training, training and regular vetting.

Which is what I suppose is actually being done now - I’m pretty sure they’ve learned their lesson. But this does not absolve them from responsibility.

174 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:11:45pm

re: #170 Kragar

I have it on good authority that the NSA really does want to know everything about everyone, because the government is evil and can’t be trusted.

True. I read that earlier about you on Twitter.

//

175 TedStriker  Jul 6, 2014 3:11:46pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

One of ‘em:

All I can say is Welcome, hatchlings.

Warms my cold, black heart.

176 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:12:40pm

re: #171 Charles Johnson

Those are just different kinds of responsibility - crime (Snowden) and (possibly criminal) negligence (NSA).

177 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:12:43pm

re: #164 Belafon

Tell me, how would you find all of the spies we’ve had over the decades. Can you look at them and tell?

Yes, you can make it harder and harder to steal data, but only by making it harder and harder to use the data. Which contradicts the reason for collecting it.

Exactly - this is always the trade-off between security and the need to access information. If the information is accessible, it can be stolen. That’s all there is to it. And the measures you take to protect it always involve making it more difficult to access.

The only perfectly protected information is info that no one can access.

178 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:14:13pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

The thing is to make it as improbable as possible. I think we all agree this was not done in this case.

179 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 3:14:51pm

re: #173 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

The password thing was stupid, and would get them fired at my job. And yes, that would have made it harder to get to some of the data, though it’s hard to know which part.

But nothing can be even-for-all-practical-purposes secure. It’s only as secure as the people, and there is no 100% way to prevent the bad people from getting through. And finally, like I said, more secure generally means harder to use.

180 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 3:15:32pm

re: #172 Gus

[Embedded content]

That would be very good news if it were true, but Agence France-Presse can be as unreliable as the Daily Mail.

181 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:15:46pm

re: #178 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

The thing is to make it as improbable as possible. I think we all agree this was not done in this case.

I’m certain the co-workers who gave Snowden their passwords were trained not to do this. But this is how social engineering hacks work - by preying on human weakness. There’s no way to totally prevent this, and every day we see examples of it in the real world.

182 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:16:00pm

OK. We’re going to stake out this organized crime strip club. Only thing is we can’t run license plates on anyone but the suspects who we don’t know about yet.

//

183 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:16:09pm

re: #179 Belafon

I don’t see how it would be harder to use for the people who need to use it. Can you elaborate? And once again, we are not talking about “100%” anything.

184 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:16:55pm

re: #181 Charles Johnson

Then they were not trained good enough.

185 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:16:56pm

HEY U DUMBASS GREENWALD CULTISTS:

NSA does not have the resources to read every-fucking-email-ever-sent-ever.

But you know who does? FACEBOOK & GOOGLE.

186 Dr Lizardo  Jul 6, 2014 3:18:28pm

re: #180 De Kolta Chair

That would be very good news if it were true, but Agence France-Presse can be as unreliable as the Daily Mail.

Here’s more:

Sixty-three (63) women who were abducted by Boko Haram insurgents in parts of Borno state, about two weeks ago, may have escaped captivity and returned back to their homes, security sources revealed Sunday.

Some witnesses told reporters that the women surprisingly who emerged in large numbers on Saturday must have taken the opportunity of relaxed watch on the camps where they were held hostage to escape.

It is believed that the siege by the insurgents on military and security facilities last Friday on Damboa might have presented the women with an opportunity to flee from their abductors.

thisdaylive.com

187 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:19:38pm

There have been shots fired at Maidan. Situation developing.

188 TedStriker  Jul 6, 2014 3:20:44pm

re: #184 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Then they were not trained good enough.

Not necessarily…the best answer is that they were human beings who were deceived by someone who some, I’m sure, might have thought was a friend (or, at least, friendly), but was acting with ill intent all along.

189 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:23:16pm

re: #188 TedStriker

Yes, and that’s what I call not trained good enough. The ones trained good enough wouldn’t give the passwords even to their best friend. That’s the point. Yes, it is possible to train people that way. It is possible to train them to follow some sort of a protocol each time when a situation arises when someone asks for their password, be that an admin or anybody else.

190 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:24:01pm

BOMBSHELL!!!

191 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:28:33pm

re: #189 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Yes, and that’s what I call not trained good enough. The ones trained good enough wouldn’t give the passwords even to their best friend. That’s the point. Yes, it is possible to train people that way. It is possible to train them to follow some sort of a protocol each time when a situation arises when someone asks for their password, be that an admin or anybody else.

Can you ensure 100% compliance? That if the training is “good enough,” 100% of the time when a person is asked for their password by a friend or superior, they’ll refuse to give it?

192 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:31:55pm
193 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 3:34:14pm

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Derp?

194 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:34:33pm

re: #191 Targetpractice

Can you ensure 100% compliance? That if the training is “good enough,” 100% of the time when a person is asked for their password by a friend or superior, they’ll refuse to give it?

On 2 conditions: 1. these should be disciplined professionals in the first place (you can’t do that with any average person, of course), 2. they’re mentally healthy at that particular moment. Regular testing of the protocol will help to sort out those who lack the discipline. That is, people should be asked for their passwords (for example) under different circumstances, and those who break the protocol should be punished.

195 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:35:06pm

re: #191 Targetpractice

Can you ensure 100% compliance? That if the training is “good enough,” 100% of the time when a person is asked for their password by a friend or superior, they’ll refuse to give it?

No, you can’t. My real point, though, is that even if Snowden had totally failed to convince co-workers to give him passwords, or if he felt their training would prevent them from giving passwords to him, he would have found other ways to get the information because that’s what he was determined to do.

There’s no such thing as perfect security.

196 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:35:35pm

re: #195 Charles Johnson

he would have found other ways to get that information because that’s what he was determined to do.

You don’t know that.

197 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:36:27pm

re: #192 Gus

Well, well. Interesting that this point didn’t make into Gellman’s article.

198 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:36:53pm

re: #194 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

On 2 conditions: 1. these should be disciplined professionals in the first place (you can’t do that with any average person, of course), 2. they’re mentally healthy at that particular moment. Regular testing of the protocol will help to sort out those who lack the discipline. That is, people should be asked for their passwords (for example) under different circumstances, and those who break the protocol should be punished.

And that’s rather where this all breaks down, the NSA’s farming out its work to average people who aren’t disciplined professionals, they’re clock-punchers to whom this a paycheck, not a matter of national security. They put up with the security because it’s five to six figures a year and no doubt a healthy benefits package.

199 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:37:53pm

re: #198 Targetpractice

Sure. Which still puts the responsibility (for the negligence) on the NSA.

200 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:39:20pm

re: #197 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Well, well. Interesting that this point didn’t make into Gellman’s article.

Might want to add that as an update.

Seems to go along with the wishy washy, “could be strongly linked to U.S. citizens or U.S.residents.”

201 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:40:28pm

re: #199 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Sure. Which still puts the responsibility (for the negligence) on the NSA.

You do realize that, even in arenas where you’d expect people to be disciplined professionals or at least closely watched, spies have still managed to gain confidence and exploit it to steal national secrets, yes?

202 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:41:08pm

So far we have:

1. “Could be strongly linked to U.S. citizens or U.S.residents.”

and

2. “Not necessarily Americans.”

203 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:41:27pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

You do realize that, even in arenas where you’d expect people to be disciplined professionals or at least closely watched, spies have still managed to gain confidence and exploit it to steal national secrets, yes?

Maybe, but not so laughably, preventably easily as Eddie did it.

204 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 3:41:55pm

re: #202 Gus

So far we have:

1. “Could be strongly linked to U.S. citizens or U.S.residents.”

and

2. “Not necessarily Americans.”

Orwellian, isn’t it?

205 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:43:21pm
206 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:43:38pm
207 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 3:43:50pm

re: #197 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Well, well. Interesting that this point didn’t make into Gellman’s article.

Maybe he’s just so old skool that he doesn’t want use up too much newspaper ink? //

208 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:45:38pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

A few possible cases, where I wouldn’t blame the NSA, include mental illness of the person involved, as well as blackmail, to which, of course, a disciplined person can be as susceptible as anybody else (though here is where the regular vetting comes in… Basically, such people should forget about their own privacy, IMHO.).

209 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:46:41pm
210 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 3:46:42pm

re: #196 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

You don’t know that.

Actually, I do know that, from many years of experience with these very issues, but I don’t really want to get into a pointless back and forth argument over it.

211 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:47:22pm

re: #203 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Maybe, but not so laughably, preventably easily as Eddie did it.

“Not laughably so”? Really?

212 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:47:51pm

Glenn Greenwald has a Facebook account. Who’da thunk?

213 TedStriker  Jul 6, 2014 3:49:53pm

re: #212 Pie-onist Overlord

Glenn Greenwald has a Facebook account. Who’da thunk?

I wonder if he has a MySpace page?

///

214 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:53:08pm

re: #211 Targetpractice

“Not laughably so”? Really?

You mean that there were other cases, where documents were as much laughably, preventably easy to steal as in Eddie’s case? OK. I have nothing against this claim :) It only shows that one should prevent what is laughably preventable.

215 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:55:14pm

re: #213 TedStriker

I wonder if he has a MySpace page?

///

NSA probably is not monitoring MySpace accounts, but who knows?

216 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 3:56:11pm

re: #214 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

You mean that there were other cases, where documents were as much laughably, preventably easy to steal as in Eddie’s case? OK. I have nothing against this claim :) It only shows that one should prevent what is laughably preventable.

It’s always “laughably preventable” in hindsight. We tell ourselves that those involved should have known better. But any system where there is at least one point of failure is going to eventually find itself subject to a break-in that was “laughably preventable.”

217 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 3:56:34pm
218 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 3:57:34pm
219 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 3:59:44pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

One of ‘em:

All I can say is Welcome to irelevance, hatchlings.

FTFY.

220 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 3:59:58pm

re: #216 Targetpractice

It’s always “laughably preventable” in hindsight. We tell ourselves that those involved should have known better.

It’s hindsight for us only because we didn’t know anything about the system before. One could have easily made these same points I’ve made about training, etc. before the crime, if one knew about how the system works.

221 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 4:03:42pm

re: #203 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Maybe, but not so laughably, preventably easily as Eddie did it.

Two words. John Walker

During his time as a Soviet spy, Walker helped the Soviets decipher more than one million encrypted naval messages,[3] organizing a spy operation that The New York Times reported in 1987 “is sometimes described as the most damaging Soviet spy ring in history.”

222 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:03:55pm

re: #220 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

It’s hindsight for us only because we didn’t know anything about the system before. One could have easily made these same points I’ve made about training, etc. before the crime, if one knew about how the system works.

So, let’s assume in your scenario that every one of Snowden’s coworkers had refused to give him their passwords. Would he have been prevented entirely from attaining the data he sought?

223 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:05:00pm

re: #221 Bubblehead II

Two words. John Walker

During his time as a Soviet spy, Walker helped the Soviets decipher more than one million encrypted naval messages,[3] organizing a spy operation that The New York Times reported in 1987 “is sometimes described as the most damaging Soviet spy ring in history.”

Was it laughably preventable? They should have prevented it then.

224 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:05:36pm

re: #222 Targetpractice

So, let’s assume in your scenario that every one of Snowden’s coworkers had refused to give him their passwords. Would he have been prevented entirely from attaining the data he sought?

Give me the full description of the system and 24 hours. //

225 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:07:10pm

re: #224 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Give me the full description of the system and 24 hours. //

You’re the one who seems to believe that the NSA should have been able to stop the man but didn’t.

226 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:07:37pm

There are things which hardly anyone expects.
Then there is computer security 101.
Pointing out the mere possibility of the former in no way excuses anyone for failing the latter.

227 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:08:20pm

re: #225 Targetpractice

You’re the one who seems to believe that the NSA should have been able to stop the man but didn’t.

They should have and they did not. Just facts.

228 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:10:53pm

re: #227 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

They should have and they did not. Just facts.

They should have come up with a training program that would ensure 100% compliance with regulations against sharing passwords?

229 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:12:19pm

re: #228 Targetpractice

They should have come up with a training program that would ensure 100% compliance with regulations against sharing passwords?

Make that 99.9% and the answer is yes.

230 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 4:12:44pm

re: #223 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Was it laughably preventable? They should have prevented it then.

Come on Sergey. The point we are all trying to make is that no matter what safe guards you put in place, someone who wants something bad enough, WILL either find a way to get it or fail and get caught. If they get caught the system worked. If they succeed and are then later found out, the system is reviewed and the holes patched. It’s just the way it works. No system is 100% fool proof.

231 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:14:03pm

re: #230 Bubblehead II

Nobody talks about 100% fool-proof systems, so I’m not sure why the “100%” come up time and again. We’re talking about easily preventable stuff. Like, not sharing passwords.

232 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:14:29pm

re: #229 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Make that 99.9% and the answer is yes.

In any decently sized organization, that .1% is still enough people to truly fuck up your day.

233 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 4:15:56pm
234 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 4:15:57pm

re: #231 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Nobody talks about 100% fool-proof systems, so I’m not sure why the “100%” come up time and again. We’re talking about easily preventable stuff. Like, not sharing passwords.

There have been a number of discussion about weaknesses in how the NSA handles data. One being that they are using contractors at all instead of all in-house personnel. From there it goes to vetting, security and audit procedures, and so forth.

235 Romantic Heretic  Jul 6, 2014 4:17:03pm

re: #109 Pie-onist Overlord

A friend at Facebook shared this pic. My comment was, “There’s a reason I call the Right in America teahadis.”

236 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 4:17:53pm

re: #217 Gus

[Embedded content]

Bradley P. Moss, Esq @BradMossEsq
Follow
So #snowden took 160K private emails but it never occurred to him to bring the ones showing his internal reporting?

————
Look, if I can’t remember the fake birth date I used to set up my Facebook page, why should I expect Snowden to remember to do all that? //

237 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 4:21:33pm

re: #233 jaunte

We don’t need no stinking stamps.

Speaking of which, why isn’t there a stamp for the actor who spoke that line in The Treasure of Sierra Madre, Alfonso Bedoya?

238 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 4:23:03pm

re: #231 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Nobody talks about 100% fool-proof systems, so I’m not sure why the “100%” come up time and again. We’re talking about easily preventable stuff. Like, not sharing passwords.

Agreed. And due to lax training by the contractor and lax oversight by the NSA, they were. I am also sure that that particular security oversight has been firmly addressed as well as others, like the incomplete background checks.

239 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:23:44pm

re: #232 Targetpractice

In any decently sized organization, that .1% is still enough people to truly fuck up your day.

If it happens. And assuming that lots of NSA people have access to this data in the first place. I’m pretty sure that there are not only different access levels, but also “sectioning”, different people having access to different data. So if Eddie got not X passwords, but X/100 instead, the number of documents he stole might have been much smaller.

Anyway, I’m not sure what you’re arguing. That Snowden might or might not have stolen documents otherwise is pure speculation and is pretty irrelevant to the fact that the way he did steal them was preventable. The crime is still Eddie’s, but the negligence is still NSA’s.

Arguing that a determined kid will find a way to the locked weapons anyway, sooner or later, is not an excuse for letting the weapons lie around.

240 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:24:07pm

re: #234 Feline Fearless Leader

There have been a number of discussion about weaknesses in how the NSA handles data. One being that they are using contractors at all instead of all in-house personnel. From there it goes to vetting, security and audit procedures, and so forth.

Yep.

241 Romantic Heretic  Jul 6, 2014 4:25:22pm

re: #162 thedopefishlives

And there I’m going to disagree with you. The vast majority of “data breaches” that one hears about on a regular basis? Social engineering hacks that convince users with sensitive business data access to give up passwords or other vital security info to an unauthorized user. It’s the oldest and easiest form of hacking.

I remember reading about Captain Crunch and how most of his hacking was done socially.

242 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:28:53pm

It’s like, there is always a chance one could get cancer. But the probability gets bigger if you do certain things (or don’t do certain things). The mere fact that anybody could get cancer in the end doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t do some things that lessen the probability (like quit smoking).

243 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:33:09pm

re: #242 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

It’s like, there is always a chance one could get cancer. But the probability gets bigger if you do certain things (or don’t do certain things). The mere fact that anybody could get cancer in the end doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t do some things that lessen the probability (like quit smoking).

Everything’s about playing the odds. I could live a healthy lifestyle, avoiding all carcinogens, and still drop dead at 50 from a brain tumor. Even with proper training and vetting, you’re still relying upon human beings to be a barrier between a thief and his target.

244 Romantic Heretic  Jul 6, 2014 4:34:37pm

re: #168 Dr Lizardo

We used to have something similar here in Toronto.

Image: 2011513-Toronto_Flyer_E700A_trolleybus_in_1987.jpg

They’ve been out of service for about twenty years now.

245 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 4:37:03pm

re: #244 Romantic Heretic

Philly has old cars too. SEPTA is having its 50th anniversary this year. septa.org

246 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:37:12pm

re: #243 Targetpractice

Everything’s about playing the odds. I could live a healthy lifestyle, avoiding all carcinogens, and still drop dead at 50 from a brain tumor.

Yes, or you could smoke and live to 110. And yet smoking does - statistically speaking - kill and a healthy lifestyle does - statistically speaking - lead to a longer life. So when one does play the odds and smoke, he shouldn’t complain about the most probable results.

247 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 4:40:33pm

Yep, and there’s the Greenwald passive aggressive retweet.

248 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 4:42:17pm
249 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:44:48pm

re: #248 Kragar

I have a stupid question: what would they do if they wanted to arrest him?

250 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 4:45:07pm
251 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:45:57pm

re: #249 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

I have a stupid question: what would they do if they wanted to arrest him?

You mean what would the sheriff do if the government wanted to arrest Bundy?

252 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 4:46:00pm

re: #241 Romantic Heretic

I remember reading about Captain Crunch and how most of his hacking was done socially.

My wife’s late uncle used to talk about being stationed in the Air Force in the sixties in Alaska, and how Draper had a knack for accessing free phone calls for his fellow servicemen. He sounds like quite the character (Captain Crunch, that is. though my wife’s uncle was a character in his own right, and was eventually sent stateside after he shot his revolver at the ceiling of the chow hall one too many times).

But yeah, pretty benign behavior on Draper’s part. My AF Sgt. dad had a mate who knew how to do it.

253 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:46:32pm

re: #250 Charles Johnson

That he used to defend white supremacists is one thing (they also need lawyers). That he used to do it pro bono makes me go hmmmm…

254 Justanotherhuman  Jul 6, 2014 4:48:04pm

This really does make me sick. I mentioned last night that Gellman himself felt no compunction in printing the info he gleaned about that couple, and no doubt anyone who knows them would be able to identify them from the circumstances presented.

Knowing that unauthorized persons (Snowgreen and their accomplices) are reading these docs should sicken anyone. Why are people only upset that govt employees in the course of their work may have seen them, and not Snowden and Co who have no right to those documents? And I stand by my earlier assertions that if we don’t like laws, we work to change them—we don’t resort to criminal behavior. And if criminal behavior is being done in our name by govt employees, they should be prosecuted, no matter who they are. People do forget that just because he was a contractor, that by virtue of his job, Snowden was a govt employee and required to take an oath to the US. Yet, there are no indications that any criminal actions have been made by the NSA, while we know for certain what Snowden’s crimes were and that he provided some people with the fruits of his crimes, which makes them holders of stolen goods.

Maybe this all sound rather moralistic, but no, it’s legalistic, and the fact remains that one or more persons have committed crimes, and everything the NSA did was covered by legislation.

But, I suppose it’s fine to feel “vindicated” for your crimes if you’re a certain type of person. It’s OK to have committed those crimes because govt. It’s OK to have committed those crimes because NSA. Which more or less means you (a) don’t feel you are a part of this govt or this country; (b) your own personal wishes are not being carried out; (c) your judgment supersedes that of seasoned, experienced people who make intelligence and security their life’s work; (d) your self-imposed OCD won’t permit you to work within the system in order to rectify any flaws. In other words, it’s more important for you to throw a wrench into the system instead of working with others to try to change what you might think is wrong, and you’re severely impaired with pie in the sky libertarianism and/or anarchistic ideology.

255 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 4:48:15pm
256 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 4:48:26pm
257 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:50:28pm

re: #251 Targetpractice

You mean what would the sheriff do if the government wanted to arrest Bundy?

I mean, how would those with intent to arrest him do it? I ask this in light of the previous confrontation, where the BLM simply gave up in the end. If the reason was wanting to avoid bloodshed, won’t this reason be applicable now? Or will the govt at some point have had enough of trying to be peaceful and non-confrontational?

258 Justanotherhuman  Jul 6, 2014 4:50:42pm

re: #256 Gus

[Embedded content]

I don’t think “NSA liberals” (like myself) are saying he violated my civil rights. I’m calling him and his cohorts criminals.

259 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 4:51:29pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Speaking of John’s little bit, here’s a good post in the comments there:

“Now wait a second.

The Apostle of Liberty has long been writing 20,000 word jeremiads about how nothing the NSA did led to anything useful.

So, was he wrong about this, or just lying again? “

260 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:52:15pm

re: #254 Justanotherhuman

It’s like they’re a bunch of voyerists poring over this private correspondence.

261 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 4:52:33pm

Everyone at the NSA had “need to know” and full access to the emails 24/7?

No?

Its almost like they don’t have a fucking clue to as to what the fuck they’re talking about.

262 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 4:54:47pm

And when you have Assange with access to this stuff, it’s already bad enough, but think about the friends he has, like that creepy neo-fascist Israel Shamir, who is speculated to have given Lukashenko info on the Belarusian opposition.

263 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 4:56:36pm

“EVERYONE AT THE NSA HAD ACCESS TO THE EMAILS!”

How they seem to think it works: “Hello new hire, here is your desk, your ID for access to the building, and full, unrestricted access to every email ever written”

264 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 4:56:36pm

Watching the Walking Dead last season again. OH YEAH.

sorry Snowden.

265 CuriousLurker  Jul 6, 2014 4:57:43pm

My $0.02 on the security issue:

Based on what I’ve read (and learned through osmosis from my boss) is that, as Charles said, there’s no such thing as a 100% impenetrable security system, and any system is only as strong as its weakest link. Maybe this is something the NSA either overlooked or got lazy about because I also agree with Sergey that someone like Snowden shouldn’t have been able to weasel his way into accessing such critically important info.

Whatever the case, we’re dealing with human beings here, not machines—there are no pat answers. Humans are susceptible to employing bad judgement and making all sorts of mistakes. We hear or read about this every single day.

Some of you might be interested in reading about “risk intuition” in this article from 2009 by Bruce Schneier, which was rebutted a few days later in this post by Davi Ottenheimer over at flyingpenguin. It’s something to think about.

266 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:00:21pm
267 Kragar  Jul 6, 2014 5:01:08pm

re: #266 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

You know how the NSA lies.
/

268 TedStriker  Jul 6, 2014 5:04:10pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

John Cole: dudebro attention whore.

269 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 5:04:52pm

re: #267 Kragar

It’s one thing to say that some agency lies (of course one needs to prove it), but this idiot outright claimed that NSA acknowledges the opposite of the truth… I don’t know whether it’s brain damage or drugs. Looks bad anyway.

270 Belafon  Jul 6, 2014 5:05:51pm

re: #268 TedStriker

No more than anyone else who owns a website.

271 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:06:18pm
272 Stanley Sea  Jul 6, 2014 5:07:13pm

re: #268 TedStriker

John Cole: dudebro attention whore.

Sad. but loved the push back.

273 CuriousLurker  Jul 6, 2014 5:07:43pm
274 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:10:35pm

re: #273 CuriousLurker

Troll in the house.

Haven’t seen that name in ages.

275 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:10:57pm
276 CuriousLurker  Jul 6, 2014 5:12:00pm

re: #274 Gus

Haven’t seen that name in ages.

Be thankful for that. In my experience it’s a nasty little hater.

277 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:12:59pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Should I fire up the grill?

278 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 5:14:43pm

re: #277 PhillyPretzel

Should I fire up the grill?

That seems to be a very old troll, the meat is prolly tough and chewy.

279 Justanotherhuman  Jul 6, 2014 5:14:45pm

Well, we know this is a lie (more than 3 people outside the NSA have the material) but it’s also indicative of how these people think.

280 Dr Lizardo  Jul 6, 2014 5:15:21pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Be thankful for that. In my experience it’s a nasty little hater.

Heh. Haven’t seen that one before. Accidentally updinged him as well, before quickly downdinging.

Oops. Well, it’s 0215 here, so I guess I’m a little tired. :D

281 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:16:33pm

re: #279 Justanotherhuman

Back when they all considered me a rabid right winger, Atrios was a major asshole. He hasn’t changed a bit.

282 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 5:17:57pm

re: #278 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

That seems to be a very old troll, the meat is prolly tough and chewy.

Crock Pot then. 12 hours or so on low with a mesquite BBQ sauce.

283 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 5:18:03pm

speaking of the grill, the Caribbean Jerk Chicken was delicious!

284 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 5:18:39pm

re: #282 Bubblehead II

Crock Pot then. 12 hours or so on low with a mesquite BBQ sauce.

re: #283 Pie-onist Overlord

speaking of the grill, the Caribbean Jerk Chicken was delicious!

Well, maybe a Jerk Troll will be good too.

285 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:18:45pm

re: #282 Bubblehead II

That might work.

286 CuriousLurker  Jul 6, 2014 5:19:31pm

re: #277 PhillyPretzel

Should I fire up the grill?

Maybe. It’s definitely here to leave turds all over the place.

287 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 5:19:49pm

The recipe works for all kinds of jerks.

288 RealityBasedSteve  Jul 6, 2014 5:19:57pm

re: #283 Pie-onist Overlord

speaking of the grill, the Caribbean Jerk Chicken was delicious!

I’m doing a roast split chicken, 500 degrees, 10 minutes per pound. My seasoning mix on it, and some mac & cheese. I’m going to risk 1 meal without veggies, hopefully I won’t die of scurvy or beri-beri during the night.

RBS

289 Justanotherhuman  Jul 6, 2014 5:20:00pm

Also, this is probably a lie as well. Only 160K? Why that number? Was he looking for particular people? Just how reliable is what you’re deducing from the documents he passed on to you are we expected to believe? You’re going to condemn the entire agency’s workings from only partial info?

290 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:20:34pm
291 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:21:26pm

re: #289 Justanotherhuman

He’s parroting the talking point Marcy Wheeler was floating a little while ago. This is apparently how they plan to play it.

292 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 5:21:27pm

re: #290 Gus

“My pet goat ated them :(“

293 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:21:53pm

Redo!

294 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:23:06pm

::: schlepping out the grill :::

295 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:23:11pm

OK, take two.

296 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:24:21pm

When they respond with these kinds of attacks, it lets me know I hit a nerve.

297 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:25:20pm
298 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:25:51pm

::: schlepping out the coals :::

299 b_sharp  Jul 6, 2014 5:26:37pm

My wife and I just converted our propane BBQ into a charcoal BBQ.

Why you ask?

She hates the taste the propane adds to the food.

I don’t taste it.

0_o

300 socrets  Jul 6, 2014 5:26:41pm

re: #64 Charles Johnson

Better late than never, I guess. Israel has been swinging to the far right for quite a while if you believe Max Blumenthal.

301 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 5:27:40pm

re: #299 b_sharp

My wife and I just converted our propane BBQ into a charcoal BBQ.

Why you ask?

She hates the taste the propane adds to the food.

I don’t taste it.

0_o

That’s funny, we switched over from charcoal to gas some years back because we noticed the charcoal was leaving a taste on the food.

302 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 6, 2014 5:27:48pm

re: #300 socrets

Better late than never, I guess. Israel has been swinging to the far right for quite a while if you believe Max Blumenthal.

Blumenthal is hardly a credible source anymore. Which is not to say that Israel’s direction is not troubling.

303 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:29:13pm
304 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:29:13pm

::: rummaging around for the chimney starter :::

305 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 6, 2014 5:29:47pm

HURR HURR!!!! TEH NSA READS EVERY EMAIL EVER SENT!!! LIKE ME ON TEH FACEBOOK!!!!!!

306 blueraven  Jul 6, 2014 5:29:50pm

re: #278 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

That seems to be a very old troll, the meat is prolly tough and chewy.

putrid, probably poisonous.

Best leave this one to the scavengers.

307 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:30:50pm

re: #300 socrets

Better late than never, I guess. Israel has been swinging to the far right for quite a while if you believe Max Blumenthal.

I can see it for myself, and have been for years. But I do not consider Max Blumenthal an unbiased source for this kind of information - exactly the opposite, in fact.

308 Eventual Carrion  Jul 6, 2014 5:32:02pm

re: #129 gwangung

Idiots think that the law of unintended consequences don’t apply to conservatives.

Well apparently the laws of science hold no water for them either.

(Edited for incorrect wording)

309 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:34:58pm

Ahh I found it. ::: rips up couple of sheets of newspaper and puts it into bottom of chimney starter and lights them :::

310 Killgore Trout  Jul 6, 2014 5:35:24pm

re: #287 Pie-onist Overlord

The recipe works for all kinds of jerks.

Good recipe with the exception of the garlic powder. Powder always tastes funky and it seem silly to go through all that work and save 2 minutes by not using fresh garlic. I also have a spare coffee grinder that I only use for whole spices. Jerk also works really well on turkey thighs. Extra good when cooked on the grill.

311 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:35:50pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

All I can say is Welcome, hatchlings.

Pretty sure that was me, once upon a time. Came over from Balloon Juice after someone in the comments there talked about Charles coming to his senses.

312 b_sharp  Jul 6, 2014 5:38:32pm

re: #301 Targetpractice

That’s funny, we switched over from charcoal to gas some years back because we noticed the charcoal was leaving a taste on the food.

She’ll likely want to go to wood next.

313 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:38:39pm

re: #263 Kragar

“EVERYONE AT THE NSA HAD ACCESS TO THE EMAILS!”

How they seem to think it works: “Hello new hire, here is your desk, your ID for access to the building, and full, unrestricted access to every email ever written”

That’s basically what Snowden claimed right from the get-go. “I was just a sysadmin and could access ALL THE THINGS!”

314 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 5:39:01pm

re: #305 Pie-onist Overlord

HURR HURR!!!! TEH NSA READS EVERY EMAIL EVER SENT!!! LIKE ME ON TEH FACEBOOK!!!!!!

[Embedded content]

No Glenn, what this little bit demonstrated was the point that has been made time and again by your critics, namely you chucklefucks are the very last people anyone would trust with government secrets because you have no qualms about throwing others under the bus to make your point. In fact, I’m fairly convinced that these emails were provided to the Post unredacted in the hopes that they’d be presented to the public as such, simply so you could cry crocodile tears over the lives “destroyed” by the NSA.

315 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 5:40:58pm

Ah… the joys of trying to argue with a pro-Snowden-bot who thinks his motivations were pure. Based on exactly zero evidence that he intended to blow the whistle:

316 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:42:03pm

::: dumps chimney starter full of hot coals in kettle grill :::

317 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:43:03pm

re: #315 lawhawk

Ah… the joys of trying to argue with a pro-Snowden-bot who thinks his motivations were pure. Based on exactly zero evidence that he intended to blow the whistle:

[Embedded content]

That guy is a real whacko. Blocked and muted months ago.

318 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 5:43:32pm

re: #313 AntonSirius

He stole information he didn’t have the right to view in the first place. He used passwords obtained from others in order to carry out his espionage.

And the information he obtained has thus far been very little about violation of US civil rights by the NSA, and quite a bit about various programs the NSA uses to keep tabs on foreign entities/countries/individuals.

And that information also harmed our relationships with allies, neutral parties, and inured benefits to those who have interests in underming US policies globally.

319 MomSense  Jul 6, 2014 5:45:15pm

re: #157 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The fundamental thing people don’t realize is that the NSA wants to filter out stuff. It wants to discard the irrelevant.

This is such an important concept that seems to be left out of the “discussion” on this topic.

320 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:47:05pm

re: #192 Gus

There’s that ambiguous “could be strongly linked” passage cropping up again. I decided to ask Gellman directly what the deal is.

321 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:47:55pm

::: dumping some unlit coals in to kettle grill :::

322 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:48:08pm
323 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 5:48:15pm

re: #320 AntonSirius

There’s that ambiguous “could be strongly linked” passage cropping up again. I decided to ask Gellman directly what the deal is.

[Embedded content]

I imagine, if you ever get a response, it’ll either be a mealy mouthed “Well no, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t,” or instead the classic dudebro “They shouldn’t be spying on foreigners!”

324 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 5:48:49pm
325 sagehen  Jul 6, 2014 5:49:16pm

re: #299 b_sharp

My wife and I just converted our propane BBQ into a charcoal BBQ.

Why you ask?

She hates the taste the propane adds to the food.

I don’t taste it.

0_o

Your wife is a wise woman, with a discerning palate. (mesquite, mmmm)

326 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 5:49:28pm

Could be reading my emails
vs.
could be uncovering a secret nuke program.

What to worry about… let me think…

327 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:49:59pm

re: #197 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Well, well. Interesting that this point didn’t make into Gellman’s article.

It actually did, circumspectly. It’s the sentence I was stunned by when I first read it, the “could be strongly linked” one.

The fact that Gellman did not come right out and say “American emails were unminimized”, but danced around it, seemed very curious.

328 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 5:50:15pm
329 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:52:14pm

re: #213 TedStriker

I wonder if he has a MySpace page?

///

I think he still uses Bebo.

330 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:53:00pm

::: schlepping “troll” to the kettle grill and tossing it on said grill :::

331 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 5:53:22pm

re: #319 MomSense

Google and every search engine is always trying to improve their search capabilities so that they can focus on the relevant and discard those that aren’t. Because narrowing things down improves response time to emerging threats/issues and can let analysts get to what’s needed in a timely fashion.

If you’ve got 1 million documents in a pile, and you’re looking for 1 specific. If you get 1,000 hits, that’s a start, but you need to then identify the 1 out of a 1,000. Improve the search to 1 out 10 returns, and you’ve narrowed things considerably.

Now, multiply all those by hundreds of millions of documents that need to be searched daily. The 1,000 becomes tens of thousands. Or many times more.

All apparently ignored by the dudebros.

332 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 5:55:27pm

re: #222 Targetpractice

So, let’s assume in your scenario that every one of Snowden’s coworkers had refused to give him their passwords. Would he have been prevented entirely from attaining the data he sought?

IIRC, in one of the verified cases the co-worker didn’t give Snowden his key directly. Snowden had the co-worker login on Snowden’s computer and just recorded the keystrokes, or something similar, to capture the login (which the co-worker said he assumed couldn’t be done on the system).

333 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 5:56:34pm

re: #317 Charles Johnson

There once was a Snow-bot named Ken
Who one day felt a strange yen
To convert XKeyScore to Fortran
But after a week screamed, “Screw this, man!”
And since then he’s been practicing zen

334 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 5:56:55pm

re: #331 lawhawk

Google and every search engine is always trying to improve their search capabilities so that they can focus on the relevant and discard those that aren’t. Because narrowing things down improves response time to emerging threats/issues and can let analysts get to what’s needed in a timely fashion.

If you’ve got 1 million documents in a pile, and you’re looking for 1 specific. If you get 1,000 hits, that’s a start, but you need to then identify the 1 out of a 1,000. Improve the search to 1 out 10 returns, and you’ve narrowed things considerably.

Now, multiply all those by hundreds of millions of documents that need to be searched daily. The 1,000 becomes tens of thousands. Or many times more.

All apparently ignored by the dudebros.

The proverbial needle in a pile of needles. But be careful of the search terms that you use, lest some unethical bastard on a House committee decides to make a “scandal” out of you using certain terms and not others.

335 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 5:57:24pm

re: #327 AntonSirius

It seems to me he deliberately glossed over it - mentioned it in passing, without being specific, then never again through the whole article.

Gellman is a slightly more scrupulous version of Glenn Greenwald, but he’s coming from the exact same libertarian world view.

336 Bubblehead II  Jul 6, 2014 5:57:42pm

re: #306 blueraven

putrid, probably poisonous.

Best leave this one to the scavengers.

Soak it in a brine bath, rinse/repeat and then place in a smoker with apple wood chips. Should be safe*.

*Give some to a moonbat first and check for negative reaction.

337 lawhawk  Jul 6, 2014 5:58:14pm

re: #334 Targetpractice

It’ll be a true scandal when you realize how much the sequester cuts actually reduced the revenue coming in to the feds because the IRS couldn’t go after tax evaders and those looking to take advantage of lax enforcement.

338 PhillyPretzel  Jul 6, 2014 5:59:34pm

::: in best Downton Abbey butler’s voice ::: Troll will be medium done with in an hour.

339 Targetpractice  Jul 6, 2014 6:01:29pm

re: #337 lawhawk

It’ll be a true scandal when you realize how much the sequester cuts actually reduced the revenue coming in to the feds because the IRS couldn’t go after tax evaders and those looking to take advantage of lax enforcement.

Or, in other words, the sequester is having exactly the effects that the GOP planned for.

340 Eventual Carrion  Jul 6, 2014 6:03:31pm

re: #318 lawhawk

He stole information he didn’t have the right to view in the first place. He used passwords obtained from others in order to carry out his espionage.

And the information he obtained has thus far been very little about violation of US civil rights by the NSA, and quite a bit about various programs the NSA uses to keep tabs on foreign entities/countries/individuals.

And that information also harmed our relationships with allies, neutral parties, and inured benefits to those who have interests in underming US policies globally.

Article 3 Section 3 U.S. Constitution:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

341 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 6:03:56pm

re: #323 Targetpractice

I imagine, if you ever get a response, it’ll either be a mealy mouthed “Well no, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t,” or instead the classic dudebro “They shouldn’t be spying on foreigners!”

I would be completely gobsmacked if I get a definitive response.

342 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 6:06:14pm

re: #324 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

He’s another one like Mona who I blocked.

343 Charles Johnson  Jul 6, 2014 6:06:16pm

re: #341 AntonSirius

I would be completely gobsmacked if I get a definitive response.

You won’t.

344 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 6:06:45pm

re: #335 Charles Johnson

It seems to me he deliberately glossed over it - mentioned it in passing, without being specific, then never again through the whole article.

Gellman is a slightly more scrupulous version of Glenn Greenwald, but he’s coming from the exact same libertarian world view.

Oh, for sure. I assume the reason he was being dodgy about it was because he couldn’t, in fact, prove that any of the unminimized addresses belonged to Americans. But it’s still just an assumption.

345 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 6:06:54pm

re: #343 Charles Johnson

You won’t.

Probably get blocked.

346 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 6:07:44pm

re: #345 Gus

Probably get blocked.

I was very polite.

347 Feline Fearless Leader  Jul 6, 2014 6:13:27pm

re: #257 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

I mean, how would those with intent to arrest him do it? I ask this in light of the previous confrontation, where the BLM simply gave up in the end. If the reason was wanting to avoid bloodshed, won’t this reason be applicable now? Or will the govt at some point have had enough of trying to be peaceful and non-confrontational?

If it was Sheriff Joe in Arizona he could just roll up in his armored APC.
///

348 Gus  Jul 6, 2014 6:17:20pm

re: #346 AntonSirius

I was very polite.

I noticed the meltdown at Balloon Juice. :D

349 RealityBasedSteve  Jul 6, 2014 6:17:42pm

re: #312 b_sharp

She’ll likely want to go to wood next.

I’ve started using nothing but pure diamonds in the grill… No residue, no ‘off’ taste, do take a bit more to get them started however.

RBS
Do diamonds even burn?

350 jaunte  Jul 6, 2014 6:21:05pm

re: #349 RealityBasedSteve

351 De Kolta Chair  Jul 6, 2014 6:22:56pm

re: #349 RealityBasedSteve

I’ve started using nothing but pure diamonds in the grill… No residue, no ‘off’ taste, do take a bit more to get them started however.

RBS
Do diamonds even burn?

Carbon burning? According to Rosie O’Donnell, nothing has ever burned ever.

(Sorry for gratuitously invoking that she-demon’s name, but I do so dislike her.)

352 AntonSirius  Jul 6, 2014 6:37:48pm

re: #348 Gus

I noticed the meltdown at Balloon Juice. :D

I have a pretty simple rule about internet fights: whichever side has the most trolls and assholes supporting it, I pick the other one.

Folks like Corner Stone make it very easy to stick by that rule in l’affaire Snowden.

353 MomSense  Jul 6, 2014 6:50:14pm

re: #348 Gus

I gave up trying to “discuss” this issue there.

354 wheat-dogghazi  Jul 7, 2014 1:23:20am

re: #100 Ryan King

Conservative Troll gets her comeuppance in glorious fashion:

Woman’s Attempt To Troll Liberals Backfires When Someone Notices This Disturbing Similarity

Had to get the cache, probably because Addicting Info’s server is crashing.

Did I say it’s f’ing glorious?

I wanted to check the provenance of the right hand photo, in case it was staged. Nope. It’s a photo of the White Widow, Samantha Lewthwaite, who’s implicated in terror attacks in Kenya. buzzkenya.com

If Holly Fisher had half a brain, she’d be horrified to be associated with Lewthwaite.

355 wheat-dogghazi  Jul 7, 2014 3:40:19am

re: #354 wheat-dogghazi

OK, big correction here, and it’s too late to edit my comment. The woman brandishing the rifle and the Quran is not Samantha Lewthwaite. She was Reem Riyashi, a Palestinian suicide bomber. gettyimages.com

A commenter at PZ Myers’ blog found the original image. The Daily Fail used the Riyashi photo and misidentified Lewthwaite as the subject.

356 KerFuFFler  Jul 7, 2014 9:45:38am

re: #136 Charles Johnson

Looks like Cole’s readers are starting to get fed up with his crap.

Years ago I decided to read Balloonjuice regularly after I noticed that one of their tags was,”Show us on the doll where the invisible hand touched you.”

I fled Balloonjuice and ended up here about a year and a half ago. Overall the commentariat here seems more interesting———and while there are pet lovers here, there are no maudlin, ten thousand word posts about just how lucky some asshole is to have some furry quadruped remind him how important he is to “someone”.

Anyway, thanks for hosting such an interesting blog!


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