Reason Magazine Addresses That 1976 “Holocaust Denial Edition”

Methinks they protest too much…

Reason magazine’s editor Nick Gillespie has an article up wherein he addresses that 1976 “special edition” featuring Holocaust deniers and contributors to neo-Nazi magazines. Let’s see how he acquits the publication:

If you want a preview of just how lame ideological mud-slinging is going to get […] take a look at this pair of articles penned by Mark Ames at pando.com, a Bay Area-based website that, among other things, aspires “to bring more civility into the blogosophere.” The pieces charge Reason with being not a libertarian defender of “Free Minds and Free Markets” but a hotbed for pro-apartheid Holocaust deniers who slavishly do the bidding of David and Charles Koch (cue the monster-movie music, maestro).

Yeah, seriously. A publication that just celebrated “Marijuana on Main Street: The long, hard road to safe, legal pot,” covers the police brutality beat like nobody’s business, and criticized George W. Bush’s “disaster socialism” and his stupid wars for the entire eight awful years he was in the White House, is really a stalking horse for reactionary politics right out of The Turner Diaries.

Those are the (slightly abridged) opening two paragraphs, and the “obviously we’re winning, they are attacking us more” stuff continues for another three paragraphs or so before Gillespie gets to the actual meat of the complaint against that 1976 edition.

(Before we continue, note Gillespie’s juxtaposition of Reason’s more recent positions with a possibly strawmannish claim that the current publication is a “stalking horse” and so on. That’s entirely separate from the issue at hand.)

Moving on:

In the newer post, Ames runs through Reason’s February 1976 issue that was billed as a “Special Revisionism Issue.” He has posted the entire issue, which I had not read before, online here (an incomplete online archive of Reason’s run can be found here at the invaluable unz.org site, which compiles hundreds of titles; we hope eventually to produce our own fully searchable, complete archive at our own site). Ames is correct that some of the contributors to that issue developed an interest in or were fellow travelers with that most pathetic area of study known as Holocaust revisionism or denialism. That scurrilous topic is not the focus of any of the articles in the issue, but the inclusion of contributors such as James J. Martin, who would go on to join the editorial board of the contemptible denialist outfit the Institute of Historical Review, is embarrassing.

Emphasis mine. More: reason.com

It’s a small point in Gillespie’s favor that he admits embarrassment over the association with (e.g.) James J. Martin, but overall it’s pretty much a non-apology if the people featured in that issue had histories of bigotry etc. before Reason invited them. Moreover, the real embarrassment is that nobody at Reason, or associated with the magazine, had the self-awareness to realize that maybe this would be a problem for them. Is it too much to expect an editor to at least have a passing familiarity with back issues?

And so, without further ado…

Austin App! Look at this glowing biography from the Institute for Historical Review (cached):

Dr. App was a member of the Editorial Advisory Committee of The Journal of Historical Review from its inception. His last major speech in America was “The Holocaust Put in Perspective,” delivered at the first International Revisionist Conference sponsored by the Institute for Historical Review, held in Los Angeles over Labor Day, 1979. The speech was published in Vol. 1, No. 1 of the JHR (Spring 1980). In his last years Dr. App several times expressed his satisfaction at the fact that he was able to witness the contemporary worldwide explosion of accomplishment and interest in revisionist studies of all aspects of the Second World War. Those now engaged in this work owe him, as one of the handful of pioneers in a field where pioneering entailed great risk and therefore great courage, their most heartfelt respect, admiration, and gratitude. He was a fighter and a champion in the cause of truth.

James J. Martin! Even this positive eulogy on antiwar.com (cached) has to dance around his association with IHR:

It might interest such readers - and may also appall them - to know that many of the Ralph Myles titles are still available, still at the familiar bargain prices (thirty years at least behind the pricing realities in the publishing world of today) - but they are available from only one bookseller. This is the infamous Institute for Historical Review (IHR), to which Martin sold his remaining stock a few years ago, when he became too infirm to deal any longer with such strenuous work as filling orders from book dealers. Martin was associated with the IHR for the last twenty-five years of his life, a fact that has embarrassed not a few of his longtime admirers and dissuaded not a few potential admirers from ever taking the trouble to take a look at his published writings.

Percy Greaves…!

… okay, he’s one where the connection isn’t so clear. Ames claims that he’s written for the Liberty Lobby but a cursory Google search didn’t turn much up. The most I got was along the lines of this (admittedly evocative) 1992 newsgroup(?) post (cached):

Fourth. Libertarians. This is the War against the State, now and you’d better be on the side of the righteous or kiss freedom goodbye. You who run from revisionist associations because you’re afraid that your liberal friends in Washington D.C. won’t invite you to their cocktail parties—so you can play statist games and pretend you’re changing things—you are incubi and succubi of the movement.

We don’t need you summer soldiers and sunshine patriots.

You at \Libertarian Review\ and \Reason\ who banned articles on Holocaust revisionism and ads for I.H.R. conferences, then attack Sam Konkin for joining James J. Martin and Percy Greaves on the \J.H.R.’s editorial advisory committee, publishing the banned ads and one article by Lewis Brandon—when you know that Sam Konkin has consistently used his name and \New Libertarian\ publications to make libertarianism attractive to \all\ suppressed factions—get out of the movement before future historians conclude that the libertarians of today were hypocrites.

Interesting that this guy calls out Reason for having banned Holocaust deniers, and Gillespie never thought to bring that up.

Finally we come to Gary North, the theocrat who thinks we should publicly execute everyone that Leviticus/Exodus says is an abomination—from homosexuals to disobedient children (like you do). Here’s an extremely illuminating excerpt from a 1998 Reason article about North himself, and keep in mind that when other libertarians are okay with calling him a Christian Taliban, that should send up a few red flags:

Reconstructionists provide the most enthusiastic constituency for stoning since the Taliban seized Kabul. “Why stoning?” asks North. “There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost.” Thrift and ubiquity aside, “executions are community projects—not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his’ duty, but rather with actual participants.” You might even say that like square dances or quilting bees, they represent the kind of hands-on neighborliness so often missed in this impersonal era.

[…]

The continuing, extensive Reconstructionist presence in fields like the home schooling movement poses for libertarians an obvious question: How serious do differences have to become before it becomes inappropriate to overlook them in an otherwise good cause? The printed program of last year’s Separation of School & State Alliance convention constituted an odd ideological mix in which certified good guys such as Sheldon Richman, Jim Bovard, and Don Boudreaux alternated with Chalcedon stalwarts like Samuel Blumenfeld, Howard Phillips, and [R. J.] Rushdoony himself.

Obvious maybe, but unaddressed for at least another 10 years when Ron Paul got into so much hot water for those racist newsletters. This sentiment really encapsulates the fatal problem with libertarianism as a political movement: their “big tent” (well, middling-sized tent but who’s measuring) organizing philosophy is seemingly so desperate that they’re often completely okay with white supremacists, Confederate sympathizers, and Nazi apologists as long as the proper two or three shibboleths are exchanged. Even if there are some sane and decent libertarians (and I have reason to believe there are, if only in the young and not-so-influential wings) this paleo bullshit is a cancer that’s poisoning not only libertarianism as a fringe political ideology, but (as we’ve seen for years now) is also metastasizing into the broader American right-wing.

And jeez, if Holocaust denial and Christian Reconstruction get a pass for so damn long, what isn’t okay for the movement?

UPDATE at 7/27/14 1:20:25 pm by StephenMeansMe


Here’s Gary North defending poor old Hitler from those mean scholars who accuse him of orchestrating the mass slaughter of six million Jews:

Probably the most far-out materials on World War II revisionism have been the seemingly scholarly studies of the supposed execution of 6 million Jews by Hitler. The anonymous author of The Myth of the Six Million […] has presented a solid case against the Establishment’s favorite horror story—the supposed moral justification for our entry into the War.

(Reason, February 1976, p. 39)

North was last seen writing materials for—what else—the “Ron Paul Curriculum.” (cached) And wouldn’t you know it, that old rascal Tom Woods (secession-and-nullification fetishist) is part of it too (cached).

Jump to bottom

121 comments

1 BadExampleMan  Jul 27, 2014 10:22:47am
And jeez, if Holocaust denial and Christian Reconstruction get a pass for so damn long, what isn’t okay for the movement?

Outrages such as reasonably-priced health care, or a functioning public infrastructure.

2 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 11:23:06am

re: #1 BadExampleMan

Outrages such as reasonably-priced health care, or a functioning public infrastructure.

At least they say they have policy prescriptions to obtain those things. I mean, it’s essentially privatize everything! but that’s a different sort of thing than Maybe Hitler wasn’t such a bad guy after all? or Maybe we shouldn’t prevent people from running Whites Only restaurants? or Maybe everyone should get a gun? or etc. You know, things that pretty much nobody else considers an open question.

3 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 11:25:43am

Promoted? Yay! Thank you!

4 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 11:29:12am

Everything old is new again?

5 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 11:31:46am

re: #2 StephenMeansMe

At least they say they have policy prescriptions to obtain those things. I mean, it’s essentially privatize everything! but that’s a different sort of thing than Maybe Hitler wasn’t such a bad guy after all? or Maybe we shouldn’t prevent people from running Whites Only restaurants? or Maybe everyone should get a gun? or etc. You know, things that pretty much nobody else considers an open question.

I’m leaning toward the conclusion that libertarianism and racism go together because when you look at economic outcomes, you have to explain why, with fairly free markets, and not-too-regulated capitalism, members of minority groups fare more poorly than whites, without using an explanation that undermines the belief in the inherent goodness of free markets. They need to blame the victim.

Misogyny too. If women aren’t doing well, it’s because they have different priorities than men and aren’t going for the gold (so to speak) the way men are.

Liberty does not fail, it has only been failed.

6 team_fukit  Jul 27, 2014 11:35:35am

re: #5 wrenchwench

to me libertarianism has certain doctrinaire/fundamentalist (Calvinist) attitudes that inspire victim blaming, if the market is “free” then success can be attained by following “the rules.” and if you don’t succeed, it’s supposedly because you didn’t do it right.

despite their crowing all the time about not being religious

7 Ryan King  Jul 27, 2014 11:36:45am

The primary issues with libertarians seem to focus on taxation, small government, and freedom… for straight white people.

One glaring issue for me and libertarianism: they said they’re cool with gay rights but not cool with gay marriage, and gay rights are a secondary issue because ‘they government shouldn’t be in the marriage business.’ However, it takes government to help prod society make it ‘cool’ for gay people. They don’t acknowledge or understand that.

Theology is not a big deal to them. Racial issues aren’t either, because it takes government to address.Not big enough issues to get into bed with conservatives who are against gay rights and evade race issues, not to mention outright theocratic visions of libertarian heroes.

Nope, small government is what they’re for, all that other gay/minority/religious stuff is secondary. It’s totally hypocritical and outright wacky. If they conservatives they’re in intellectual bed with every came to real power we’d be screwed.

It makes absolute sense for Reason, and Ron Paul, to not have a problem cavorting with cretins and cranks if they don’t share those specific beliefs specifically. But it really makes you wonder if there isn’t some romanticism with those cretinous beliefs in the first place, otherwise they would run away… just like Charles did.

8 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 11:42:10am

re: #6 team_fukit

to me libertarianism has certain doctrinaire/fundamentalist (Calvinist) attitudes that inspire victim blaming, if the market is “free” then success can be attained by following “the rules.” and if you don’t succeed, it’s supposedly because you didn’t do it right.

I’ve always seen it as raw Natural Selection by economic means.

Capitalism taken to it’s worst extreme.

Literally the Law of the Jungle applied to the Marketplace.

10 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 11:45:57am
11 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 11:46:41am

re: #9 Charles Johnson

How President Obama Will Be Impeached

The trial would take longer than he has left if office.

What a waste of time and resources.

Shows how pathetic the Whackos have are.

12 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 11:48:00am

Maybe they have fantasies of impeaching him when he is out of office. Somehow deny him is library etc.

Like a dishonorable discharge from the Military.

14 team_fukit  Jul 27, 2014 11:49:26am

re: #8 FemNaziBitch

I think that is true probably of the Ayn Randians, but it still seems to me that the older school libertarians’ love of (their cursory reading of )Adam Smith and Max Weber is more rooted in Calvin than Darwin

15 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 11:56:38am

I would suggest adding an openly denialist quote from one of the articles (the one about Rassinier would do) to the response to show that they did not only publish people who are deniers (if they “merely” did that, there might have been an appearance of an excuse, however thin), they also published denial as such.

16 Kragar  Jul 27, 2014 11:56:57am
17 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 11:57:35am

IDF video of an Israeli mortar falling in an empty UN schoolyard
MP4 Video

Somebody in this story isn’t telling the truth. It’s hard to reconcile both versions of the story as being different perspective or opinion.

18 NJDhockeyfan  Jul 27, 2014 11:59:40am

Report: Kerry truce draft ignores Israeli demands

Ceasefire proposal presented to Israel by top US diplomat met all Hamas demands, scarcely mentioned Israel, according to Haaretz.

19 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 12:03:59pm

re: #18 NJDhockeyfan

Report: Kerry truce draft ignores Israeli demands

Meh, the US proposal is mostly for show anyways. US and Qatar can do their diplomacy dances. As always, when the Israelis finish their operation and Hamas runs out of rockets the fighting will slow down/stop.

20 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 12:07:08pm

Israel Military Rejects Blame for Deaths at U.N. Shelter

The Israeli military denied Sunday that it was responsible for anyone killed last week when a mortar hit the courtyard of a U.N school that was shelter to many Gaza residents. Officials from the United Nations and the Palestinian government said 16 people were killed and hundreds wounded on Thursday when the school in northern Gaza was struck.

“A single errant Israeli mortar landed in the courtyard in the school,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said. “The footage we have shows the courtyard was empty.”

Lerner said there was fierce fighting between the IDF and Hamas on Thursday. The militants fired anti-tank missiles from the immediate vicinity of the school and the IDF fired several mortars in that direction.

“We reject the claim that people were killed by the IDF mortar on the school premises,” he said, adding there could have been people who were wounded by shrapnel.

I suppose it’s possible the Israelis doctored their footage of the shell landing but, given the continued history of fake stories and doctored pics/video, I’m leaning towards the casualties at the school being another hoax.

21 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 12:08:40pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

I’m leaning toward the conclusion that libertarianism and racism go together because when you look at economic outcomes, you have to explain why, with fairly free markets, and not-too-regulated capitalism, members of minority groups fare more poorly than whites, without using an explanation that undermines the belief in the inherent goodness of free markets. They need to blame the victim.

Misogyny too. If women aren’t doing well, it’s because they have different priorities than men and aren’t going for the gold (so to speak) the way men are.

Liberty does not fail, it has only been failed.

The association can be more or less explicit depending on how someone comes to believe libertarian theory. The Bundy Ranch folks, for example, have that really repugnant history going back to slavery apologists. Very much a “freedom for me, the rest of you can get fucked” attitude. I’ve found that libertarians who go on about “natural law” (that is, ~90% of libertarians) are most prone to saying stupid things.

I know and have spoken with some younger people who identify as libertarian but have way more sane beliefs… only time will tell if they take over the movement or lose their patience.

22 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:10:02pm

re: #14 team_fukit

I think that is true probably of the Ayn Randians, but it still seems to me that the older school libertarians’ love of (their cursory reading of )Adam Smith and Max Weber is more rooted in Calvin than Darwin

Well, the thing is that I see so much “natural selection” in the practice, I think they really think that it is God’s Plan, not Darwin’s Theory.
Extremely twisted thinking.

23 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 12:11:15pm

re: #3 StephenMeansMe

Great post, congrats on the promotion.

24 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 27, 2014 12:13:46pm

re: #15 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

I would suggest adding an openly denialist quote from one of the articles (the one about Rassinier would do) to the response to show that they did not only publish people who are deniers (if they “merely” did that, there might have been an appearance of an excuse, however thin), they also published denial as such.

I agree. Juante cited a directly denialist quote, and in addition there’s lots of stuff about how Chamberlain, not Hitler, was the real victim, as well as books being promoted that are Holocaust revisionism.

They are narrowly right that the issue is revisionism of all kinds, but that includes Holocaust revisionism.

25 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:14:36pm

So this is the purpose? Permanent Smear?

26 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:16:09pm

Much needed music break: Aretha series
Youtube Video

27 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:16:43pm
28 jaunte  Jul 27, 2014 12:17:25pm

Mark Ames:

After I exposed Reason’s history as a publisher of racist, pro-apartheid South Africa articles during the 1970s, the current editor-in-chief, Matt Welch, answered back in what must stand as one of the most bizarre responses imaginable.

Rather than simply doing what any sensible editor would do — apologize for the magazine’s past transgressions but reiterate that the racists articles do not represent its current editorial position — Welch instead wrote a long blog post, smearing Pando and my reporting, including describing me (apparently without irony) as an “anti-libertarian conspiracy theorist.” He also admitted that — sure! — Reason published a bunch of sick, racist pro-apartheid articles… but hey, they also published articles critical of apartheid, so what’s the big deal?

And like clockwork, Gillespie does essentially the same in his response.
Must be part of the Libertarian style guide.

29 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:20:40pm

There is a lazy democrat joke in here somewhere, but I can’t find it.

30 Lidane  Jul 27, 2014 12:22:18pm

re: #16 Kragar

George Will is having a stopped clock moment. He’s right that the amount of kids on the border averages out to about 20 per county in the country. It’s hardly a massive amount of kids and they wouldn’t be a burden.

The problem is that the GOP has spent the last 40+ years openly whoring itself out to the racists, the xenophobes and the religious fanatics. It’s to the point where those are the people running the party on the state and local levels, and they’re the ones who make up the primary voting base. As long as they’re calling for a Berlin Wall with armed snipers and land mines on the border, and as long as they consider those kids to be subhuman diseased mongrels, nothing is going to get done.

31 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 12:22:23pm

There has been at least one neo-Nazi book advertised in that issue - Wilmot Robertson’s (John Humphrey Ireland’s pseudonym) The Dispossessed Majority.

Here’s a copy of the 1996 edition:
archive.org

On page 161 we learn that the author is a hardcore Holocaust denier.
On page 191 he faults Jews for everything, from communism to integration.
On page 234 he recommends deporting all blacks to Africa.

One author calls this book “the new bible for the American racist right” (in 1972).

Robertson-Ireland also published the infamous neo-Nazi magazine Instauration, which constituted regular “updates” to the book:

For those who approve of eugenics, historical revisionism, and discussions of the racial makeup of populations, the writing of Instauration was very pleasing. But many would characterize the publication as promoting racism and Holocaust denial. Instauration also published numerous articles arguing that Christianity was a contrived religion.

32 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 12:23:21pm

re: #21 StephenMeansMe

The association can be more or less explicit depending on how someone comes to believe libertarian theory. The Bundy Ranch folks, for example, have that really repugnant history going back to slavery apologists. Very much a “freedom for me, the rest of you can get fucked” attitude. I’ve found that libertarians who go on about “natural law” (that is, ~90% of libertarians) are most prone to saying stupid things.

I know and have spoken with some younger people who identify as libertarian but have way more sane beliefs… only time will tell if they take over the movement or lose their patience.

Do the ones with sane beliefs add some compassionate protection for people in unfortunate circumstances? I think one reason there are so few women libertarians is that women have an easy time understanding how vulnerable an individual can be through no fault of their own, like being small and weak physically, or being pregnant.

I guess I’m so much of a ‘statist’ (believing that society, through the state, has responsibility for the well being of its people) I may have a very difficult time understanding ‘sane libertarianism’.

33 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:24:22pm

Gus - if you’re lurking, you’ll want to see this post at Pando about that David Sirota article claiming that Pentagon officials wanted to kill Edward Snowden, with the outrageous image of Obama aiming a shotgun at Snowden.

It turns out that the person who originally made that claim was … none other than Benny Johnson, the right wing hack fired from Buzzfeed for plagiarism.

Buzzfeed Staffer Who Claimed Pentagon Sources Threatened to Kill Snowden Is Fired for Dishonesty.

34 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 27, 2014 12:26:29pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

That IDF logic is really problematic, because if people could have been wounded by shrapnel, they could have been killed, as well.

35 Targetpractice  Jul 27, 2014 12:28:01pm

re: #27 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

But remember, folks, the President’s the only person who is talking about impeachment.

////

36 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:28:52pm

The criminal who wants to be Illinois’s next governor. Check out his description of himself.

37 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 12:29:20pm

re: #26 FemNaziBitch

Much needed music break: Aretha series
[Embedded content]

Aretha in the news yesterday:

Aretha Franklin has some harsh words for a server who showed D-I-S-R-E-S-P-E-C-T by telling the Queen of Soul she wasn’t allowed to eat her takeout inside the restaurant.

A spokesman for Franklin says the situation unfolded Tuesday at a Johnny Rockets restaurant on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls.

The spokesman says Franklin ordered a hamburger after performing a sold-out show. But he says the server screamed at Franklin, saying she couldn’t sit down to eat because she had ordered takeout.

Franklin says in a statement that the restaurant worker was “very rude, unprofessional and nasty.”

[…]

Read more: ctvnews.ca

38 Gus  Jul 27, 2014 12:29:39pm

re: #33 Charles Johnson

Gus - if you’re lurking, you’ll want to see this post at Pando about that David Sirota article claiming that Pentagon officials wanted to kill Edward Snowden, with the outrageous image of Obama aiming a shotgun at Snowden.

It turns out that the person who originally made that claim was … none other than Benny Johnson, the right wing hack fired from Buzzfeed for plagiarism.

Buzzfeed Staffer Who Claimed Pentagon Sources Threatened to Kill Snowden Is Fired for Dishonesty.

Was just looking at that.

39 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:30:16pm

re: #37 wrenchwench

Aretha in the news yesterday:

tsk tsk

Do not diss the Lady of Soul.

40 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:30:54pm

Fascinating that Paul Carr seems to think we should just believe all media claims from “anonymous sources” no matter how outrageous or ridiculous they seem - until they screw up and get caught being dishonest.

And Pando did run that ridiculously inflammatory image with the article, didn’t they?

41 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 12:31:34pm

Gah, there goes another one I used to enjoy following on Twitter, the PoromEmilio account. I even had him on my “Negativity Antidotes” list, but then he retweets this Godwin crap and I go to look at his timeline and find that today—actually, for the past week—he’s been retweeting war porn images of dead/injured Gazan women & children. Ugh, I’m glad I missed most of it.

42 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:33:06pm

re: #41 CuriousLurker

I unfollowed him a while back for that.

43 Dr Lizardo  Jul 27, 2014 12:33:11pm

re: #26 FemNaziBitch

Much needed music break: Aretha series
[Embedded content]

Here’s another sanity break: Znojmo (pronounced ZNOY-moe)

Youtube Video

If you lived there, you’d be home by now.

44 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:33:15pm

Sometimes, it is just nice to remember the past
Youtube Video

45 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 12:33:23pm

re: #41 CuriousLurker

Why, has he become a Raelian? They’re indeed annoying. /////

46 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:34:53pm

Man, the sense of entitlement from all these dudebro journalists is just stifling.

47 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:35:50pm

Carr:

Specifically Sirota discussed whether there should be a presumption of authenticity when anonymous sources are cited by Buzzfeed. He argued that, without proof of prior dishonesty, there’s no reason why Buzzfeed generally, or Johnson specifically, should be doubted when he says that the Pentagon wanted Snowden dead…

How about the fact that it reeks of complete bullshit?

48 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:36:14pm

And now it turns out it WAS probably complete bullshit.

49 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 12:36:40pm

EDIT: Here’s Gary North defending poor old Hitler from those mean scholars who accuse him of orchestrating the mass slaughter of six million Jews:

Probably the most far-out materials on World War II revisionism have been the seemingly scholarly studies of the supposed execution of 6 million Jews by Hitler. The anonymous author of The Myth of the Six Million […] has presented a solid case against the Establishment’s favorite horror story—the supposed moral justification for our entry into the War.

(Reason, February 1976, p. 39)

North was last seen writing materials for—what else—the “Ron Paul Curriculum.” (cached) And wouldn’t you know it, that old rascal Tom Woods (secession-and-nullification fetishist) is part of it too (cached).

As an aside: what’s the code for the slick “update” thing on posts?

50 FemNaziBitch  Jul 27, 2014 12:36:56pm

bbl

51 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 12:37:18pm

re: #44 FemNaziBitch

Sometimes, it is just nice to remember the past
[Embedded content]

Oh hey, I don’t know if you’ve already seen this elsewhere, but I just now watched it and immediately thought of you because I know you love dogs:

Video

52 jaunte  Jul 27, 2014 12:37:38pm
without proof of prior dishonesty

The flim-flammer’s fantasy.

53 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:38:46pm

Gary North is still very influential in the libertarian movement, by the way. He remains an “Associated Scholar” at the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

54 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 12:41:01pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Gary North is still very influential in the libertarian movement, by the way. He remains an “Associated Scholar” at the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

“Mises Daily” Columnist is a Holocaust Denier

55 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:41:56pm

It’s pretty clear that Paul Carr wrote that piece to pre-empt any accusations that they were uncritically passing on bullshit from Benny Johnson.

But, you know, they were.

56 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 27, 2014 12:51:40pm

Speaking of bullshit,
Wingnuts can’t let go of this debunked, discredited, lame stupid meme:

57 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 12:53:06pm
58 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 12:54:44pm

Not many pictures of the UN school made it into the press. All of the wounded I’ve found for far are pictured at the hospital and the only evidence that they were from the school is the caption saying so. BBC has one of the few pics with evidence of casualties at the school
bbc.com
The Photo credit is EPA. Anyone know who that is?

59 urbanmeemaw  Jul 27, 2014 12:56:01pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

I wonder if Sirota’s “reporting” of this “story” had anything to do with his departure from Pando?

60 Lidane  Jul 27, 2014 12:57:40pm

re: #56 Pie-onist Overlord

I am still amazed that a Muslim prayer rug = a terror risk. It’s like people didn’t learn a goddamn thing after 9/11 except abject fear.

61 Rightwingconspirator  Jul 27, 2014 12:58:07pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

The U.S. Should Push for the Disarming of Hamas in Gaza-Israel Cease-Fire

The depravity of Hamas’s strategy seems lost on much of the outside world,..

This.

62 jaunte  Jul 27, 2014 12:58:29pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

And now it turns out it WAS probably complete bullshit.

Sirota:

Buzzfeed characterizes this as government officials merely “seeth(ing) in very personal terms.” However, with a top legislative branch leader offering to assist in the very extrajudicial assassination now being promoted by NSA and Pentagon officials, and with the executive branch categorically asserting the right to order such an extrajudicial assassination of a U.S. citizen, this is more than mere “seething.” These are outright threats.

63 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 12:59:12pm

re: #49 StephenMeansMe

EDIT: Here’s Gary North defending poor old Hitler from those mean scholars who accuse him of orchestrating the mass slaughter of six million Jews:

(Reason, February 1976, p. 39)

North was last seen writing materials for—what else—the “Ron Paul Curriculum.” (cached) And wouldn’t you know it, that old rascal Tom Woods (secession-and-nullification fetishist) is part of it too (cached).

As an aside: what’s the code for the slick “update” thing on posts?

If you type the word ‘update’ in caps followed by a colon, and leave it on its own line, it will be automagically converted to the slick thing.

Tom Woods is despicable.

64 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 12:59:56pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

The Photo credit is EPA. Anyone know who that is?

EPA

65 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 1:00:39pm

re: #63 wrenchwench

Ha, I probably should have tried that. No end to the automagic on this platform!

66 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 1:00:48pm
67 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:03:06pm

re: #63 wrenchwench

If you type the word ‘update’ in caps followed by a colon, and leave it on its own line, it will be automagically converted to the slick thing.

I was trying to use that recently and couldn’t figure out why in the heck it wasn’t working anymore, then I realized I hadn’t added the colon. Duh.

68 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 1:04:30pm

BBC did a report from the school showing a children’s desk with 2 little bloody hand prints @1:22
bbc.com

69 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 1:04:45pm

re: #67 CuriousLurker

I was trying to use that recently and couldn’t figure out why in the heck it wasn’t working anymore, then I realized I hadn’t added the colon. Duh.

A good colon makes everything better.

70 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:05:27pm

re: #69 wrenchwench

A good colon makes everything better.

Indeed it does, LOL. (ewww)

71 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 1:05:46pm

re: #65 StephenMeansMe

Ha, I probably should have tried that. No end to the automagic on this platform!

It didn’t get turned into the dividing line because there’s a space after the colon…

72 StephenMeansMe  Jul 27, 2014 1:08:02pm

Ah, missed this one:

re: #32 wrenchwench

Do the ones with sane beliefs add some compassionate protection for people in unfortunate circumstances?

Yeah, basically the ones who can read Hayek (Hayek!) on how a guaranteed basic income provides an excellent ground for liberty (instead of a twisted bureaucratic system of specific welfare, basically) and not reflexively throw the book across the room while shrieking “STATIST!”

Similarly the ones who read Adam Smith on how business owners naturally want to collude and should be checked, and don’t clutch their copies of Atlas Shrugged like a talisman.

Naturally, these types aren’t received very warmly on the broader libertarian circuit.

73 wrenchwench  Jul 27, 2014 1:11:07pm

re: #70 CuriousLurker

Indeed it does, LOL. (ewww)

Srry. Here’s a kitteh you could use later, as compensation:

74 aagcobb  Jul 27, 2014 1:17:11pm

re: #36 FemNaziBitch

The criminal who wants to be Illinois’s next governor. Check out his description of himself.

That’s a reversal; usually Illinois Governors become criminals.

75 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 1:17:23pm

BTW, I just changed the regex so that it will ignore spaces after the colon in the ‘Update:’ marker.

Stephen - all you have to do to get the divider line now is open it for editing with the pencil icon, and save changes.

76 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:19:10pm

I can’t even imagine being alive for 88 years, much less married that long.

77 Targetpractice  Jul 27, 2014 1:21:22pm

re: #76 CuriousLurker

I can’t even imagine being alive for 88 years, much less married that long.

[Embedded content]

“Til death do you part” was not a challenge!

///

78 aagcobb  Jul 27, 2014 1:22:10pm

re: #72 StephenMeansMe

Ah, missed this one:

Yeah, basically the ones who can read Hayek (Hayek!) on how a guaranteed basic income provides an excellent ground for liberty (instead of a twisted bureaucratic system of specific welfare, basically) and not reflexively throw the book across the room while shrieking “STATIST!”

Similarly the ones who read Adam Smith on how business owners naturally want to collude and should be checked, and don’t clutch their copies of Atlas Shrugged like a talisman.

Naturally, these types aren’t received very warmly on the broader libertarian circuit.

Hayek support a guaranteed basic income? I’ve got to find evidence of that; make some wingnut heads splode.

79 Bear  Jul 27, 2014 1:23:19pm

re: #76 CuriousLurker

How wonderful!

80 blueraven  Jul 27, 2014 1:24:18pm

re: #76 CuriousLurker

I can’t even imagine being alive for 88 years, much less married that long.

[Embedded content]

wow…he was 13 and she was 15 when they got married.

babies!

81 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:26:35pm

re: #77 Targetpractice

“Til death do you part” was not a challenge!

///

Went to go check if it was for real. Seems it was. Cute story, heh.

Their wedding photos are ready – after only 88 years

Eighty-eight years after getting married, a Chinese couple have finally gotten their wedding photos taken — and they’re still smiling.

Cameras were scarce in China in 1924, when Wu Conghan, 101, and wife Wu Sognshi, 103, tied the knot, so they have no photos from their big day. But nearly nine decades later, they re-created the happiness of the event. […]

82 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 1:27:38pm

re: #64 CuriousLurker

EPA

Thanks. Here’s their photo archive of the scenes at the school
epa.eu

83 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 1:30:16pm
84 Killgore Trout  Jul 27, 2014 1:30:40pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Thanks. Here’s their photo archive of the scenes at the school
epa.eu

Looks like 2-3 separate casualty scenes One inside, one in the yard and possible another next to the building.

85 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:32:07pm

re: #80 blueraven

wow…he was 13 and she was 15 when they got married.

babies!

Yep. A friend of mine back in TX was married to a Yemeni guy who married his previous wife when they were the same ages (but reversed, he was 15). By the time his son was 15 he too was looking for a wife, and this was in the 1990s (in a small village, but still). One thing I will say though is those kids aren’t as sheltered or “young” as ours are at the same age—they tend to be much more mature & responsible. It would be nice if they got to remain kids longer though (and maybe get more education instead of struggling to raise a family).

87 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:33:58pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Thanks. Here’s their photo archive of the scenes at the school
epa.eu

Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t like looking at war porn.

88 Gus  Jul 27, 2014 1:43:55pm

Derp.

89 thedopefishlives  Jul 27, 2014 1:46:09pm

re: #88 Gus

[Embedded content]

Derp.

Well, yeah. We’re not used to handling Teh Stupid up here, people are still trying to wrap their heads around it.

Afternoon Lizardim.

90 thedopefishlives  Jul 27, 2014 1:48:33pm

re: #89 thedopefishlives

Then again, Minneapolis seems to be having some problems with lingering racism, so perhaps we’re more desensitized to Teh Stupid than I thought.

91 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 1:49:45pm

re: #80 blueraven

wow…he was 13 and she was 15 when they got married.

babies!

BTW, I was totally gobsmacked when I looked at the Age of marriage in United States of America Wiki page and saw this entry:

Massachusetts: 18 for first marriage, 14 (male) 12 (female) with parental and judicial consent.[2]

The footnote leads you to a Cornell University Law School page with more details. Granted, it requires parental and judicial consent, but 12 and 14? O_o

WTF, Massachusetts—why is that law still on the books?

93 Romantic Heretic  Jul 27, 2014 1:54:47pm

I’ll bring up yet again that ‘libertarianism’ is nothing more than a marketing strategy. Since the central tenet of ‘libertarianism’ is that the world would be better off without any sort of organized power it seem to me that ‘libertarians’ are just anarchists.

By using ‘liberty’ as the root word they cut themselves off from the history of anarchism, which ain’t pretty, as well as making it appear that by arguing against ‘libertarianism’ you are arguing against the very idea of liberty itself.

Sneaky of them.

94 The War TARDIS  Jul 27, 2014 1:54:54pm

re: #92 Stanley Sea

Of course it is Florida.

Considering how screwed up Florida is, I think they should be knocked down to Territory, and Puerto Rico should take its place as a state. :P

At least until Florida as a whole can come back to the universe of sanity.

///// (75% Sarcasm)

95 Stanley Sea  Jul 27, 2014 1:56:10pm

re: #94 The War TARDIS

Of course it is Florida.

Considering how screwed up Florida is, I think they should be knocked down to Territory, and Puerto Rico should take its place as a state. :P

At least until Florida as a whole can come back to the universe of sanity.

///// (75% Sarcasm)

My Mom is happily there, and she’s a raging, if not involved liberal.

96 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 1:57:52pm

re: #88 Gus

It’s actually hard for me to blame people for falling for these fake news sites - they’re designed to trick people. Yes, they should be more diligent about checking quotes that seem outrageous, but these sites deliberately craft their fake stories to seem plausible, and not obviously phony.

97 Romantic Heretic  Jul 27, 2014 1:58:11pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

re: #18 NJDhockeyfan

Will you two give it a fucking rest? Start a page if you want to continue your racist blather.

98 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 2:01:42pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

I came to hate these idiotic sites. Yes, people are gullible, etc. - but these jerks prey on gullibility, don’t add anything of value (not even humor - it got old years ago) and basically make everyone dumber.

99 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jul 27, 2014 2:02:45pm

re: #98 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

It’s kind of the equivalent of playing a ‘joke’ on someone by just lying to them, and then saying “Just joking!”

“You got a letter from your school saying you’re expelled. Just joking!”

100 The War TARDIS  Jul 27, 2014 2:03:14pm

re: #95 Stanley Sea

Florida is weird anyway. Every week, I hear more and more weird and bizarre stuff happening in Florida.

Even without politics, it is a nexus of nonsense.

101 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 27, 2014 2:15:51pm
102 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 2:19:56pm

Okay, how’s this for weird? This morning I woke up thinking I needed to come check my recent Page on FGM because I’d been dreaming that somehow some spammer got into LGF and was mixing comment spam in with every regular comment and Charles wasn’t aware of it yet, so it was totally out of control. It took me a few minutes to calm down and realize it was only a dream.

I’m gonna need a therapist if I keep hanging around this place. //

Get out of my head!!!

Getty Image

103 jaunte  Jul 27, 2014 2:21:26pm

re: #88 Gus

[Embedded content]

Derp.

They got me.

104 andres  Jul 27, 2014 2:24:43pm

re: #94 The War TARDIS

Of course it is Florida.

Considering how screwed up Florida is, I think they should be knocked down to Territory, and Puerto Rico should take its place as a state. :P

At least until Florida as a whole can come back to the universe of sanity.

///// (75% Sarcasm)

That’s going to be a tough one… I don’t think the US have enough territories to replace all the states that have lost their ways into the insanity universe.

// :P

105 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 2:27:37pm

re: #103 jaunte

They got me.

Considering the kind of crazy crap Bachmann has spewed in the past, it doesn’t strike me as particularly gullible for individuals to believe she’d say something totally bigoted/racist, but outlets like ThinkProgress should know better and make sure the source is legit. Hopefully they’ll be embarrassed enough to check first next time.

106 Dr Lizardo  Jul 27, 2014 2:29:17pm

re: #100 The War TARDIS

Florida is weird anyway. Every week, I hear more and more weird and bizarre stuff happening in Florida.

Even without politics, it is a nexus of nonsense.

Florida is indeed weird. But it’ll never be as weird as Los Angeles.

Youtube Video

107 thedopefishlives  Jul 27, 2014 2:30:03pm

re: #106 Dr Lizardo

Florida is indeed weird. But it’ll never be as weird as Los Angeles.

[Embedded content]

I don’t know. Florida, at least, has its own FARK tag.

108 stpaulbear  Jul 27, 2014 2:31:16pm

re: #97 Romantic Heretic

Will you two give it a fucking rest? Start a page if you want to continue your racist blather.

Charles blew up at KT last week for derailing every thread. KT said he’d respect the request and stop derailing, but KT seems to be a person without honor and with the attention span of a housefly. I don’t post often, but I visit the site every day and agree with you that it’s annoying that KT never seems to give a shit about the actual thread topic.

109 Charles Johnson  Jul 27, 2014 2:32:43pm

This cat has figured out a very good way to wake up its owners when they’re lazing around in bed and won’t break out the food.

Youtube Video

110 thedopefishlives  Jul 27, 2014 2:35:25pm

re: #109 Charles Johnson

This cat has figured out a very good way to wake up its owners when they’re lazing around in bed and won’t break out the food.

[Embedded content]

Larger

And this, friends, is why my feline overlords are confined to the basement.

111 ausador  Jul 27, 2014 2:42:26pm

Ok, I lol’d…

Youtube Video

“Oh bother…”

112 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 2:47:58pm

re: #110 thedopefishlives

And this, friends, is why my feline overlords are confined to the basement.

Week before last my cats got in trouble so I closed the bedroom door on them all night & half of the next day as punishment. When I finally opened the door one of them immediately climbed up on the little computer stand by my bed (which she’s well aware she’s not supposed to do) and proceeded to to walk all over my laptop’s keyboard, then knocked a partially full glass of water onto it. “Oops!” Yeah, uh-huh, suuure it was an “accident”.

Luckily it was only one of those small 8 oz. juice glasses, but it was enough to screw things up as now I can move the pointer around with the mouse or touch pad, but I can’t click on anything.

113 Decatur Deb  Jul 27, 2014 2:48:50pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

Carr:

Specifically Sirota discussed whether there should be a presumption of authenticity when anonymous sources are cited by Buzzfeed. He argued that, without proof of prior dishonesty, there’s no reason why Buzzfeed generally, or Johnson specifically, should be doubted when he says that the Pentagon wanted Snowden dead…

How about the fact that it reeks of complete bullshit?

“When your mother tells you she loves you, get a second source.”
-Journo 101

114 Stanley Sea  Jul 27, 2014 2:48:51pm

re: #112 CuriousLurker

Week before last my cats got in trouble so I closed the bedroom door on them all night & half of the next day as punishment. When I finally opened the door one of them immediately climbed up on the little computer stand by my bed (which she’s well aware she’s not supposed to do) and proceeded to to walk all over my laptop’s keyboard, then knocked a partially full glass of water onto it. “Oops!” Yeah, uh-huh, suuure, it was an “accident”.

Luckily it was only one of those small 8 oz. juice glasses, but it was enough to screw things up as now I can move the pointer around with the mouse or touch pad, but I can’t click on anything.

Damn. That’s a pretty brutal retaliation.

115 CuriousLurker  Jul 27, 2014 2:49:32pm

re: #114 Stanley Sea

Damn. That’s a pretty brutal retaliation.

I’ve learned my lesson, heh.

116 Stanley Sea  Jul 27, 2014 2:50:47pm

re: #115 CuriousLurker

I’ve learned my lesson, heh.

Just roll over. All you can do.

117 jogiff  Jul 27, 2014 9:48:27pm

re: #91 CuriousLurker

Apparently Californians can get married at any age as long as they have judicial or parental consent.

118 CuriousLurker  Jul 28, 2014 7:15:04am

re: #117 jogiff

Apparently Californians can get married at any age as long as they have judicial or parental consent.

Yikes, you’re right. I missed that one.

119 jonhendry  Jul 28, 2014 5:25:46pm

re: #76 CuriousLurker

I’m just going to go ahead and assume that 88 years of marriage thing was made up. I don’t trust any of the twitter accounts like that one.

120 jonhendry  Jul 28, 2014 6:24:40pm

re: #106 Dr Lizardo

You’re forgetting the guy who got high on bath salts or something and then chewed a man’s face off.

In Florida.

121 CuriousLurker  Jul 28, 2014 6:55:39pm

re: #119 jonhendry

I’m just going to go ahead and assume that 88 years of marriage thing was made up. I don’t trust any of the twitter accounts like that one.

See #81


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