Glenn Greenwald Uses a Holocaust Denier as a Source, Then Defends It

Yes, he really did
Weird • Views: 33,129

This morning when I looked in on Twitter, I noticed a tweet by author Jeremy Duns highlighting a comment made by Glenn Greenwald in February of this year:

Duns was actually pointing out Greenwald’s cozy relationship with another shady individual, but when I clicked on the tweet to see what Greenwald had written I was astonished to see it was a link to the website of infamous British Holocaust denier David Irving:

I’ve encountered this vile website many times over the years; Irving often copies entire news articles and posts them here, possibly to get people to link to his site without knowing what kind of site it is.

So it might be possible to call this an honest mistake… except for what happened next. Because when someone then challenged Greenwald about linking to a Holocaust denial site, he didn’t admit an error. Instead, he attacked and mocked the person pointing it out, then claimed he couldn’t find the article anywhere else — implying that he knew all along he was linking to a highly questionable source.

Well. When I saw that last tweet, challenging the object of Greenwald’s derision to find a link at The Independent, I quickly Googled the first sentence of the article, and look what popped up right away, at the Irish Independent: the very same article. Court Endorses Use of Torture to Obtain Terror Evidence - Independent.ie.

What was Greenwald’s response when this was pointed out to him? He just dropped it. No apology, no acknowledgment that he used a disreputable source, nothing.

So apparently, Greenwald quickly searched to find something that backed up his narrative, and didn’t really care what kind of source he found. His own tweets seem to indicate he knew he was sending people to David Irving’s site, but didn’t consider that important. Duns points out that this is a long-running pattern of the Mighty Greenwald’s:

And lest we forget, yours truly has also been a target of this sloppy unprofessional sourcing by Greenwald, when he attacked me by linking to a fake graphic at an extreme right wing site run by crazed stalkers.

Just another day in the life of the Ultimate Alpha, ushering in a brave new era of journalism.

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267 comments
1 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 11:17:35am

In which a rather self absorbed character shows he has little or no character at all.

2 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 11:18:11am
3 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 11:18:50am

When you are in service to a Higher Cause, then any source is valid.

4 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 11:18:56am

He only had 15 minutes to get the article ready. You can’t fault him for not checking every single source in 15 minutes.
////

5 b.d.  Aug 6, 2014 11:21:33am

Glenn is used to dealing with tight deadlines over at The Intercept, no time to check for other sources.

Rush, rush, rush.

6 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:21:42am

Just when you think Glenn Greenwald couldn’t possibly be any more of a Gigantic Asshole & Douchebucket, he surprises you.

7 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 11:22:08am

The Internet…. not kind to liars, cheats and frauds.

RBS

8 Jay in Oregon  Aug 6, 2014 11:23:45am

re: #4 Kragar

Exactly! And if he just happens to have a bunch of white supremacist/RWNJ sites bookmarked and in his browser history instead of mainstream media outlets, what can you do?

Man, this every-couple-of-weeks publishing schedule is brutal.

9 b.d.  Aug 6, 2014 11:26:41am

The King of the Jungle has no time to look for other sources.

10 Randall Gross  Aug 6, 2014 11:27:06am

Even if the link was absolutely nowhere but Irving’s site every journalist owns the burden of warning readers when they must link to an extremist or hate sites.

Well unless of course you are teh alpheh — then you free from burdens while breaking news from your guerrilla jungle.

11 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 11:28:27am

This site is also listed as a “right wing hate site” when it serves the purposes of the blogger in question

12 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 11:29:05am
Because when someone then challenged Greenwald about linking to a Holocaust denial site, he didn’t admit an error. Instead, he attacked and mocked the person pointing it out,

It’s amazing how often that happens.

13 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:30:16am

Glenn Greenwald has received All Teh Journalism Awards, he’s feted & fellated by The NY Times and he has an entourage of drooling sycophants.

In spite of performing no actual journalism or even displaying any skill at anything except face-fucking on Twitter.

What is his special talent? Did Snowden provide him with photos of all these people performing sex acts on hamsters?

14 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 11:30:31am

Kind of like the reaction from one of Vicious Babushka’s twitter wingnuts, when she points out their fake meme.

15 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 11:30:57am

re: #12 jaunte
Because when someone then challenged Greenwald about linking to a Holocaust denial site, he didn’t admit an error. Instead, he attacked and mocked the person pointing it out,

It’s amazing how often that happens.

Memo to self…. If you ever see GG, and you notice that his fly is unzipped, don’t bother to point that out to him.

RBS

16 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 11:33:03am

By the way, that article is posted at many sites besides David Irving’s, including Democratic Underground and Democracy Now, among others. The idea that he couldn’t find it anywhere else is ludicrous, even if he wasn’t able to find it at the Irish Independent.

17 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:33:03am

re: #15 RealityBasedSteve

Because when someone then challenged Greenwald about linking to a Holocaust denial site, he didn’t admit an error. Instead, he attacked and mocked the person pointing it out,

Memo to self…. If you ever see GG, and you notice that his fly is unzipped, don’t bother to point that out to him.

RBS

THE EASIER FOR ME TO PISS IN YOUR EYE!!!!!

18 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 11:33:28am

re: #13 Pie-onist Overlord

Glenn Greenwald has received All Teh Journalism Awards, he’s feted & fellated by The NY Times and he has an entourage of drooling sycophants.

In spite of performing no actual journalism or even displaying any skill at anything except face-fucking on Twitter.

What is his special talent? Did Snowden provide him with photos of all these people performing sex acts on hamsters?

His special talent is the training of bucolic dogs, smug appreciation of himself, the racing of barking spiders, and the encrusting of dudebro upon the tubes of the Internet.

19 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 11:34:50am

re: #18 Feline Fearless Leader

His special talent is the training of bucolic dogs, smug appreciation of himself, the racing of barking spiders, and the encrusting of dudebro upon the tubes of the Internet.

+3 on saving throws against Fact Check.

20 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 11:34:53am

re: #16 Charles Johnson

By the way, that article is posted at many sites besides David Irving’s, including Democratic Underground and Democracy Now, among others. The idea that he couldn’t find it anywhere else is ludicrous, even if he wasn’t able to find it at the Irish Independent.

Maybe he was hoping they’d decided to check out the rest of the site while they were there.

21 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 11:36:43am

Speaking of award winning journalists and their sources:

Conservative Journalist: I Did So Pay For Discredited Vote Buying Story!

Charles Johnson, the feisty conservative journalist who’s been the driving force behind the allegations of a vote-buying scheme in Mississippi’s Republican runoff, responded Wednesday to the latest twist from the self-proclaimed pastor who levied the bribery charges.

A spokesperson for Mississippi’s Democratic Attorney General Jim Hood told the Clarion-Ledger this week that the man, Stevie Fielder, informed investigators that he was paid by a staffer for tea party upstart state Sen. Chris McDaniel (R) to give an interview about the alleged vote-buying.

22 lawhawk  Aug 6, 2014 11:37:13am

re: #19 RealityBasedSteve

And he’s got a +5 on sock puppetry to deflect attacks and +2 on attacks for Dudebro retweets of his talking points.

23 team_fukit  Aug 6, 2014 11:38:46am

David Irving = Glenn Greenwald in 10 years

24 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:39:52am

re: #23 team_fukit

David Irving = Glenn Greenwald in 10 years NEXT WEEK

ftfy

25 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 11:40:44am

re: #21 Lidane

Speaking of award winning journalists and their sources:

Conservative Journalist: I Did So Pay For Discredited Vote Buying Story!

Looking for the tweet where some Tea Bagger told me “We will see!” when this first started to implode weeks ago.

Pie-onist, you favorited that dink, didn’t you?

26 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 11:41:19am

re: #21 Lidane

“feisty”

Hah!

27 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:42:13am

re: #25 Kragar

Looking for the tweet where some Tea Bagger told me “We will see!” when this first started to implode weeks ago.

Pie-onist, you favorited that dink, didn’t you?

28 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 11:44:22am

re: #27 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

29 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 11:45:32am

re: #23 team_fukit

David Irving = Glenn Greenwald in 10 years

Don’t know about that. I think GG is smart enough to not bring and then lose a libel suit in the UK against a historian. That pretty much finished burning down Irving’s professional reputation as a historical writer.

30 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:50:43am

Oh look a new hashtag to troll:

31 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:51:50am
32 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 11:52:22am

re: #30 Pie-onist Overlord

the trots
urbandictionary.com

33 ObserverArt  Aug 6, 2014 11:55:00am

The Great Glenn does not apologize. He just journalizes.

Besides…he probably thinks he is helping all the lesser people with measly sites by bestowing linkage and bringing gazillions of his followers to those sites.

All you can Kiss The Ring now, and apologize to Glenn for even thinking he would lower himself to apologize to lesser beings.

Harrumph!

34 SteelPH  Aug 6, 2014 11:55:23am

re: #32 jaunte

the trots
urbandictionary.com

Is it bad that I laughed out loud at that?

35 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 11:55:33am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

I was just about to say, the only Reagan did with deficits is “proved they don’t matter.” It always amuses me to hear the “ZOMG THE DEBT!!!” crowd worship at the altar of a man who tripled the national debt in just 8 years.

36 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 11:55:36am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Oh, MOST EXCELLENT…

RBS

37 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:58:26am

re: #35 Targetpractice

I was just about to say, the only Reagan did with deficits is “proved they don’t matter.” It always amuses me to hear the “ZOMG THE DEBT!!!” crowd worship at the altar of a man who tripled the national debt in just 8 years.

38 Testy Toad T  Aug 6, 2014 11:58:40am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

YEAH BUT 0BAMA WAS ONLY ABLE TO GROW JOBS FOR 53 MONTHS BECAUSE DUBYA (<3 <3 MISS U) SET HIM UP BY GIVING HIM SO MANY PEOPLE WHO NEEDED JOBS SO REALLY YOU NEED TO GIVE CREDIT TO BUSH

39 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 11:59:42am

What I do basically is take the TCOT memes, fix them up, and then release them back into the Twitstream.

40 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 11:59:54am

GG is hardly an alpha. He’s a passive-aggressive beta who wants to look like an alpha. Every alpha I’ve met commands attention through confidence & competence, not whining and abuse.

41 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:01:18pm

Dim Jim Goes Full Birthtard

42 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 12:01:35pm

re: #40 b_sharp

GG is hardly an alpha. He’s a passive-aggressive beta who wants to look like an alpha. Every alpha I’ve met commands attention through confidence & competence, not whining and abuse.

I’ve found that people who sort people into Alphas and Betas usually end up being Douchebags as opposed to being NDB.

43 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:01:58pm

re: #39 Pie-onist Overlord

What I do basically is take the TCOT memes, fix them up, and then release them back into the Twitstream.

You are such a kind lady to take care of our twitter wildlife.

44 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 12:02:08pm

Can we just go back to calling Greenwald what he is, an asshole activist blogger?

45 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 12:03:30pm

re: #40 b_sharp

I think calling him a beta is generous.

46 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:03:38pm

Hey Diva, you got TRODDEN ON BACK IN 1865. DEAL WITH IT.

47 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 12:04:49pm

re: #43 b_sharp

She cleans them up with Dawn dish detergent too, gets all the oily wingnut residue off.

48 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:05:06pm

re: #42 Kragar

I’ve found that people who sort people into Alphas and Betas usually end up being Douchebags as opposed to being NDB.

I’m a douchèbag and I’m okay
I sleep all night and I work all day
- He’s a douchèbag and he’s okay
- He sleeps all night and he works all day

49 sffilk  Aug 6, 2014 12:05:29pm

I don’t understand something. The GERMANS have admitted to doing what they did during the Holocaust, even to the point of showing where the (very well documented) records are kept. Why are there people who refuse to believe that Germany did what Germany has now admitted it did? Are they blithering idiots?

50 b.d.  Aug 6, 2014 12:06:18pm

re: #46 Pie-onist Overlord

Hey Diva, you got TRODDEN ON BACK IN 1865. DEAL WITH IT.

[Embedded content]

Dixieland Diva seems like such a nice person too;

Remember now DEMS ARE THE REAL RACISTS!

51 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 12:06:28pm

re: #49 sffilk

I’m convinced that Holocaust denial is a form of mental illness.

52 Iwouldprefernotto  Aug 6, 2014 12:06:35pm

re: #49 sffilk

I don’t understand something. The GERMANS have admitted to doing what they did during the Holocaust, even to the point of showing where the (very well documented) records are kept. Why are there people who refuse to believe that Germany did what Germany has now admitted it did? Are they blithering idiots?

yes.

53 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:07:06pm
54 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 12:07:24pm

re: #39 Pie-onist Overlord

What I do basically is take the TCOT memes, fix them up, and then release them back into the Twitstream.

You’re like a TCOT rehab center.

55 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:08:04pm

re: #50 b.d.

Dixieland Diva seems like such a nice person too;

Remember now DEMS ARE THE REAL RACISTS!

[Embedded content]

Could it be a parody account? I have been pwn3d before. Although these “parodies” are just an excuse to be racist assholes anyway.

56 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:08:38pm

re: #54 RealityBasedSteve

You’re like a TCOT rehab center.

I don’t know if any TCOT has been rehabbed or if it’s even possible.

57 Bubblehead II  Aug 6, 2014 12:09:06pm

re: #28 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Apparently Bryan didn’t get the word.

58 BeachDem  Aug 6, 2014 12:09:24pm

re: #21 Lidane

Charles Johnson, the feisty conservative journalist who’s been the driving force obnoxious lunatic blogger who’s the annoying insect behind the allegations of a vote-buying scheme in Mississippi’s Republican runoff

Fixed it for them (that term “journalist” really is getting thrown around like a cheap beanbag.)

59 b.d.  Aug 6, 2014 12:10:44pm

re: #55 Pie-onist Overlord

Could it be a parody account? I have been pwn3d before. Although these “parodies” are just an excuse to be racist assholes anyway.

I think it is the real McCoy, pretty damn scary too.

60 Ace-o-aces  Aug 6, 2014 12:12:00pm

I don’t think Greenwald was trying to promote Irving’s site, but his inability to admit a mistake is typical. I actually see a lot of overlap between Greenwald’s beliefs and positions and those of most posters on LGF, but his imperious attitude pushes away a lot of potential allies.

61 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:13:40pm

I cut down friends, I beat my kids
I go to the lavat’ry
On Wednesdays I go trolling
And get battered tweeps for free

62 HappyWarrior  Aug 6, 2014 12:14:26pm

re: #57 Bubblehead II

Apparently Bryan didn’t get the word.

[Embedded content]

Who is shocked that Bryan Fischer is backing a neo-confederate asshole?

63 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:15:22pm

re: #60 Ace-o-aces

I don’t think Greenwald was trying to promote Irving’s site, but his inability to admit a mistake is typical. I actually see a lot of overlap between Greenwald’s beliefs and positions and those of most posters on LGF, but his imperious attitude pushes away a lot of potential allies.

Nope.

64 Bubblehead II  Aug 6, 2014 12:17:40pm

re: #62 HappyWarrior

Who is shocked that Bryan Fischer is backing a neo-confederate asshole?

Not anyone with two brain cells to rub together

65 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:18:17pm

re: #64 Bubblehead II

Not anyone with two brain cells to rub togather

I have more than two, does that count?

66 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 12:18:18pm

re: #60 Ace-o-aces

I don’t think Greenwald was trying to promote Irving’s site, but his inability to admit a mistake is typical. I actually see a lot of overlap between Greenwald’s beliefs and positions and those of most posters on LGF, but his imperious attitude pushes away a lot of potential allies.

Which particular positions?

That the US government information interception policies need to be reviewed? Yes.

That the US government is the only one that spies and that the NSA should be summarily dismantled? I don’t think so.

I think that your statement is a little broad and nebulous. Care to be a little more specific than “most posters on LGF” and “Greenwald’s beliefs and positions”?

67 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 12:18:37pm

re: #60 Ace-o-aces

Nope

68 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 12:18:48pm

re: #49 sffilk

I don’t understand something. The GERMANS have admitted to doing what they did during the Holocaust, even to the point of showing where the (very well documented) records are kept. Why are there people who refuse to believe that Germany did what Germany has now admitted it did? Are they blithering idiots?

It’s an extension of the denier’s anti-Semitism. It’s all but impossible for any rational person to ignore the overwhelming documentary evidence of the Shoah - evidence compiled by the perpetrators themselves, and attested to under oath during War Crimes Trials in post-WWII Germany and other places.

69 Bubblehead II  Aug 6, 2014 12:19:28pm

re: #65 b_sharp

I have more than two, does that count?

yep.

70 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:19:53pm

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Maybe but about those stats…

Any of the following factually incorrect?
forbes.com

In sharp contrast, President Reagan’s recovery from the sharp 1981-1982 recession, which resulted from the monetary policy that broke the back of the roaring 1970s inflation, recovered all of the jobs lost during that recession within 36 months. At this point in the Reagan recovery, jobs had grown nearly 10% higher than when the recession started, representing an increase of more than 10 million more jobs.

Similarly, in the 11 post depression recessions before President Obama, the economy recovered the lost GDP during the recession within an average of 4.5 quarters after the recession started. But it took Obama’s recovery 16 quarters, or 4 years, to reach that point. Today, 51/2 years, or 22 quarters, after the recession started, the economy (real GDP) has grown only about 3% above where it was when the recession started. By sharp contrast, at this point in the Reagan recovery, the economy had boomed by about 20%, or one fifth.

71 Ace-o-aces  Aug 6, 2014 12:19:58pm

re: #49 sffilk

I don’t understand something. The GERMANS have admitted to doing what they did during the Holocaust, even to the point of showing where the (very well documented) records are kept. Why are there people who refuse to believe that Germany did what Germany has now admitted it did? Are they blithering idiots?

They believe it’s all a part of a well orchestrated Zionist conspiracy, and that the Germans are victims/dupes of said conspiracy. It’s all just anti-Semitic BS. A long time ago, someone pointed out to me that almost all Holocaust denial can be summarized as
a)The Holocaust never happened
b)Let’s do it again.

72 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:22:06pm

More Rand Paul-inspired poetry:

73 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 12:22:28pm

re: #68 Dr Lizardo

It’s an extension of the denier’s anti-Semitism. It’s all but impossible for any rational person to ignore the overwhelming documentary evidence of the Shoah - evidence compiled by the perpetrators themselves, and attested to under oath during War Crimes Trials in post-WWII Germany and other places.

THIS.

Holocaust denial requires weapons-grade anti-Semitism. It’s as simple as that. If you start with the premise that Da Jooz are responsible for every evil in the world, then you can make the leap to them faking and/or lying about the Holocaust.

For everyone else, the evidence freely offered up by the the Allies, by the Germans themselves, and basic common sense are enough.

74 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:23:02pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe but about those stats…

Any of the following factually incorrect?
forbes.com

I don’t have time to check it out now but when citing Forbes, they have some reliable contributors and also some batshit libertarians.

Ah, just Googled Peter Ferrara. He’s a mouthpiece for Heartland Institute (Koch front group) so he’s full of shit.

75 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:23:21pm
76 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 12:23:56pm

“Here we have one of the most documented accounts of organized genocide in the history of mankind, with eyewitness account from both the perpetrators and the victims, archives worth of logs detail the atrocities, film footage and photographs of the activities and the results, and historical sites where the acts took place.”

“Nope, not buying it.”

77 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:25:16pm

re: #74 Pie-onist Overlord

I don’t have time to check it out now but when citing Forbes, they have some reliable contributors and also some batshit libertarians.

Ah, just Googled Peter Ferrara. He’s a mouthpiece for Heartland Institute (Koch front group) so he’s full of shit.

That would explain errors in his conclusion from cited facts but not the raw numbers.

78 piratedan  Aug 6, 2014 12:25:32pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

no, but there’s a huge caveat… in those cases, government spending was done to spur the economy, whereas after the first two years of the Obama administration, the GOP controlled house actually forced a shrinkage of governmental spending and jobs that is/was counterintuitive to aiding the recovery. Hence the longer slower recovery that we’re experiencing.

79 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:25:57pm

heh…

80 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:26:34pm

I love doctors.

Doc: So how old are you?
Me: I’m 58, going to be 59 in 3 weeks.
later…
D: So you’re 60 are you?
M:Not for another year.
D: I thought you said 60.
M: Nope.
later…
D: Don’t worry, at 60 you’ll get lots more age spots.
M: Uh, OK.
later still…
D: So let’s see those testicles.
M: OK.
D: (squeezing the lump) I see, here’s the lump. Does it hurt?
M: Yes.
D: (still squeezing the lump) Well it’s not likely cancer. It hurts does it?
M: (in pain) Yes, it hurts. You can stop squeezing now.
later…
D: And it hurts?
M: groans.

81 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:27:16pm

re: #69 Bubblehead II

yep.

Good, it took me 10 minutes to count up to three.

82 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:27:17pm

re: #77 Rightwingconspirator

That would explain errors in his conclusion from cited facts but not the raw numbers.

He’s Gish galloping through the numbers.

83 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:29:30pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe but about those stats…

Any of the following factually incorrect?
forbes.com

Why do these analyses ignore what went on in other countries at the time? The US isn’t the only country affected by or that affects the world economy.

84 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:29:37pm

re: #78 piratedan

no, but there’s a huge caveat… in those cases, government spending was done to spur the economy, whereas after the first two years of the Obama administration, the GOP controlled house actually forced a shrinkage of governmental spending and jobs that is/was counterintuitive to aiding the recovery. Hence the longer slower recovery that we’re experiencing.

That’s fine. the point was comparing the recoveries against each other directly. It was the next worst recession in depth and the recovery (for whatever reason) was far faster. That makes it a questionable idea to compoare the two to make Obama look good. It also revolves and old fiction that Presidents alone can just throttle an economy out of a recession. That’s patently false than and now.

85 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 12:29:44pm

re: #78 piratedan

no, but there’s a huge caveat… in those cases, government spending was done to spur the economy, whereas after the first two years of the Obama administration, the GOP controlled house actually forced a shrinkage of governmental spending and jobs that is/was counterintuitive to aiding the recovery. Hence the longer slower recovery that we’re experiencing.

I think the fact the the present economic recovery is anemic compared to most past economic recoveries, particularly with respect to employment, is not really in question.

I’m inclined to split the blame between inadequate government spending (due to GOP sabotage of Obama and general GOP fanaticism) and private sector distortions (mainly financial sector parasitism and offshoring of jobs).

86 Ace-o-aces  Aug 6, 2014 12:29:57pm

re: #66 Feline Fearless Leader

Which particular positions?

That the US government information interception policies need to be reviewed? Yes.

That the US government is the only one that spies and that the NSA should be summarily dismantled? I don’t think so.

Correct on those two. Also his general position on issue such as Islamophobia, gay rights, etc. Of course, Greenwald has a tendency towards absolutism in his opinions, which is where he goes wrong (such as with the NSA). Perhaps I should have said a lot of his concerns overlap with posters here, but when it gets down to details and solutions he goes off the rails.
Plus, he’s kind of an asshole.

87 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 12:31:31pm

re: #86 Ace-o-aces

Correct on those two. Also his general position on issue such as Islamophobia, gay rights, etc. Of course, Greenwald has a tendency towards absolutism in his opinions, which is where he goes wrong (such as with the NSA). Perhaps I should have said a lot of his concerns overlap with posters here, but when it gets down to details and solutions he goes off the rails.
Plus, he’s kind of an asshole.

Trying for the understatement of the decade award with that last part?

88 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 12:32:56pm

So this just came across Teh Twitters:
Dudebroface no longer curable, must be quarantined.

89 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:33:43pm

re: #83 b_sharp

Why do these analyses ignore what went on in other countries at the time? The US isn’t the only country affected by or that affects the world economy.

Probably in this instance as it’s a local comparison-The US recovery. Then and now. plus the world was far less globalized then, so that’s a little apples and oranges.

90 dog philosopher  Aug 6, 2014 12:34:49pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

By sharp contrast, at this point in the Reagan recovery, the economy had boomed by about 20%, or one fifth

by sharp contrast, reagan was never handed nearly the gaping economic collapse that obama was faced with in 2009

comparing it to the great depression would be much more appropriate

91 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 12:35:08pm

re: #88 Pie-onist Overlord

So this just came across Teh Twitters:
Dudebroface no longer curable, must be quarantined.
[Embedded image]

Dudebroface has a 74% banality rate as well.

92 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:35:32pm

No live reporting or tweeting is allowed from the 6th Circuit courtroom today, but the first audio is available:

Ohio gave the next arguments, Kentucky is giving arguments now, and then Tennessee.

93 Ace-o-aces  Aug 6, 2014 12:35:33pm

re: #87 EPR-radar

Trying for the understatement of the decade award with that last part?

Just saying, his biggest problems are personality based. Like how he’ll post 15 updates to a blog post, but almost never issue a correction when he’s wrong.

94 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 12:36:35pm
95 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:38:03pm

re: #94 darthstar

Dudebro has some very weird mismatched eyebrows…must be due to lightly trained brow waxers in Russia.

96 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:38:14pm

I think that between partisan fervors (fevers in some cases) and the time that has elapsed (hindsight bias) it’s pretty easy to dismiss any and all comparisons between the economy of Carter /Reagan era to the Bush then Obama economy out of hand as useless for anything but twitter, memes and bumper stickers. May as well compare Wilson and Nixon.

97 piratedan  Aug 6, 2014 12:38:42pm

re: #85 EPR-radar

well it is something of a big deal in that thanks to the GOP, the economy got another kick in the ass when the one sector that could implement immediate change and infuse the economy with both jobs and dollars was throttled back and made a contributor to the issue itself. Plus the continual economic sabotage campaign waged by the GOP to try and make the President look bad at the expense of millions of Americans sure as shit wasn’t due to anything other than ideology to the detriment of millions of Americans. Sure Reagan grew the economy, tripled the national debt while he was at it, expanded Federal programs and implemented some pretty pricey boondoggles yet, he grew the economy and therefore was an awesome president or so the hagiography goes….

98 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:39:37pm
99 b.d.  Aug 6, 2014 12:42:17pm

re: #88 Pie-onist Overlord

So this just came across Teh Twitters:
Dudebroface no longer curable, must be quarantined.
[Embedded image]

Dudebroface does cause bleeding of the ears and optically induced high blood pressure and extended exposure may cause severe irritation.

100 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 12:44:29pm

Michigan’s attorney appears to have been pretty much a dick:

101 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 12:44:38pm

re: #98 Backwoods_Sleuth

The day that gay marriage becomes law in all 50 states will be amazing. The sheer amount of RWNJ ‘splodey heads will put every 4th of July fireworks display to shame.

102 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:44:40pm

re: #90 dog philosopher

by sharp contrast, reagan was never handed nearly the gaping economic collapse that obama was faced with in 2009

comparing it to the great depression would be much more appropriate

Well then they should call it a depression, but it’s the worst two recessions as defined by the press or economists. So long ago, at least I was an adult working professional in Reagans day, so I have some personal recollection of how things went in LA and the jewelry biz in particular. Where there is still a very dramatic net loss of employment period. What recovery? (Very specific reference to precious jewelry mfg there)

103 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 12:47:46pm

re: #100 Backwoods_Sleuth

Michigan’s attorney appears to have been pretty much a dick:

[Embedded content]

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

104 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 12:48:48pm

re: #89 Rightwingconspirator

Probably in this instance as it’s a local comparison-The US recovery. Then and now. plus the world was far less globalized then, so that’s a little apples and oranges.

But the US recovery isn’t independent of the other western economies. If they have problems, then it will slow down US recovery just as if the US recovery is slow it will slow them down. Looking to the policies of any one president as compared to others doesn’t take into account how the recovery of other countries affects the US. Comparing presidents within the context of the world economy is necessary for accuracy.

Up here we had 3 provinces that did well in spite of the world’s and country’s fall into the recession. Many were touting the policies of the provincial governments as the reason those three provinces did well. But it wasn’t the policies of the governments, it was the sharp increase in oil production following the oil prices going above $100C a barrel. All three provinces had that one thing in common, oil production jumps.

105 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 12:49:19pm

re: #100 Backwoods_Sleuth

Michigan’s attorney appears to have been pretty much a dick:

[Embedded content]

Mich. atty relegated loving long-term same-sex relationships to just “friendships,” not equivalent to opposite-sex marriages.

If I live with my best friend for 7 years in most states, we are then considered ‘married’. Only if we’re opposite sex, though.

106 dog philosopher  Aug 6, 2014 12:51:04pm

re: #102 Rightwingconspirator

Well then they should call it a depression, but it’s the worst two recessions as defined by the press or economists. So long ago, at least I was an adult working professional in Reagans day, so I have some personal recollection of how things went in LA and the jewelry biz in particular. Where there is still a very dramatic net loss of employment period. What recovery? (Very specific reference to precious jewelry mfg there)

the real story behind the story is this:

during the 80s when reagan is agitating taxes taxes taxes communism taxes, the united states went from a nation where a family could survive on one paycheck and still hope to pay off a house in ten years to one where at least two paychecks is the norm and the typical mortgage lasts for 30 years

30 years of your life paying off your house. was never like that before

discussion like that in forbes miss the point intentionally and are, effectively, slight of hand that uses misdirection to distract americans from where they really got screwed

107 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 12:51:36pm

re: #103 RealityBasedSteve

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

They never look at the widespread problems caused by traditional marriage. Domestic violence and child abuse run rampant. Women’s careers have been damaged or ruined.

108 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 12:51:41pm

Here we go again.

109 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 12:52:00pm

re: #103 RealityBasedSteve

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

A few of the times I’ve been on jury duty an answer like that to a judge’s query drew an immediate direct rebuke from the judge.

110 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 12:55:49pm

re: #103 RealityBasedSteve

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

I agree; and from there, on to the Supreme Court. Maybe even as soon as this year.

111 gwangung  Aug 6, 2014 12:59:15pm

re: #103 RealityBasedSteve

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

Im comfortable the appeals court will rule like every other one.

Supreme Court….not so sure…

112 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 12:59:45pm

re: #104 b_sharp

But the US recovery isn’t independent of the other western economies. If they have problems, then it will slow down US recovery just as if the US recovery is slow it will slow them down. Looking to the policies of any one president as compared to others doesn’t take into account how the recovery of other countries affects the US. Comparing presidents within the context of the world economy is necessary for accuracy.

Up here we had 3 provinces that did well in spite of the world’s and country’s fall into the recession. Many were touting the policies of the provincial governments as the reason those three provinces did well. But it wasn’t the policies of the governments, it was the sharp increase in oil production following the oil prices going above $100C a barrel. All three provinces had that one thing in common, oil production jumps.

Okay true as can be. I just also note the very same facts are absent from the Twitter memes which was what I was really pointing out as inadequate to say the least, at worst misleading like championing this recovery as oh so much better than the one after Reagan got in.

it just partisan emoting, nothing more.

113 RealityBasedSteve  Aug 6, 2014 12:59:48pm

re: #110 Dr Lizardo

I agree; and from there, on to the Supreme Court. Maybe even as soon as this year.

I don’t know…. there hasn’t been an appeals court yet that has ruled against SSM, since the Supreme Court decision earlier. I didn’t think that the Supremes took a case where there wasn’t a conflict in rulings between 2 different courts in a case like this. (and I could be entirely wrong, despite staying at a very nice Holiday Inn Express this week).

RBS

114 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 1:01:36pm
115 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 1:02:32pm
116 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 1:05:06pm

How the fuck does this make any sense?

Frank Wolf Thinks Terrorists Are Crossing The Border Whistling Dixie Thanks To Obama

Rick Wiles may be a bizarre End Times radio host who promotes utterly insane conspiracy theories, but that hasn’t stopped Republican politicians from appearing on his show. Rep. Frank Wolf, a Virginia Republican, appeared on Wiles’ show, “Trunews,” yesterday, where he warned that terrorists are crossing America’s southern border thanks to President Obama’s supposed refusal to administer immigration law.

Wolf asked: “If you were a terrorist, why would you come through Dulles airport or Kennedy airport and go through TSA, why wouldn’t you just go to Mexico City and come across the border?”

“You could just skip over the border whistling Dixie,” Wiles said.

The congressman agreed: “You could.”

“The border is open,” Wolf continued, since Obama is “not enforcing the law.”

Reminder: Mexico City is over 1100 km from the US border. You can’t just fly there and walk across the street into Texas. Moron.

117 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 1:05:36pm

re: #113 RealityBasedSteve

I don’t know…. there hasn’t been an appeals court yet that has ruled against SSM, since the Supreme Court decision earlier. I didn’t think that the Supremes took a case where there wasn’t a conflict in rulings between 2 different courts in a case like this. (and I could be entirely wrong, despite staying at a very nice Holiday Inn Express this week).

RBS

Good point; if all the appeals courts throughout the land rule in favor of SSM, then it’s possible the SCOTUS will simply let those rulings stand and wash their hands of the whole matter. They’ll just tell the states, “Too bad.”

118 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 1:07:08pm

re: #111 gwangung

Im comfortable the appeals court will rule like every other one.

Supreme Court….not so sure…

Justice Kennedy is on the correct side of this particular issue. Furthermore, IMO Roberts will at least need to see something resembling a rational argument against marriage equality in the record (which has never happened in a marriage case) to vote the wrong way.

119 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 1:08:19pm

re: #115 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Hit ‘em back with this; this was hung up outside a Town Hall here in the Czech Republic.

120 dog philosopher  Aug 6, 2014 1:09:44pm

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

Okay true as can be. I just also note the very same facts are absent from the Twitter memes which was what I was really pointing out as inadequate to say the least, at worst misleading like championing this recovery as oh so much better than the one after Reagan got in.

it just partisan emoting, nothing more.

all right wing critiques of presidential handling of recessions/depressions suffer from two fatal flaws:

1) having already loudly and repeatedly declared that it’s harmful for presidents and governments to intervene with the “free” markup market, they proceed to attempt to make out that ronald reagan’s intervention in the economy was superior to every other president’s. somehow.

2) if you actually get around to asking them how the president is supposed to intervene to ‘handle’ a recession, the inevitable answer is a) even lower taxes - for businesses and top earners, of course - b) lower or no capital gains taxes, and c) further reductions in workplace and environmental safety regulations

always

if you ask them how that will help, you will be sure to hear more mystical tales of the miracles that the free market fairy will surely work someday if she is ever released from her deep dungeon

121 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 1:10:32pm

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

Okay true as can be. I just also note the very same facts are absent from the Twitter memes which was what I was really pointing out as inadequate to say the least, at worst misleading like championing this recovery as oh so much better than the one after Reagan got in.

it just partisan emoting, nothing more.

I took it as a response to the uninformed comparison of economic status between Obama and Reagan used as a cudgel against Obama. It’s a defence for Obama, not an attack on Reagan. Even the graphic that started the conversation didn’t deny the economic recovery during Reagan’s administration, it gave numbers for the Obama administration.

122 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 6, 2014 1:13:25pm

123 blueraven  Aug 6, 2014 1:14:10pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe but about those stats…

Any of the following factually incorrect?
forbes.com

In sharp contrast, President Reagan’s recovery from the sharp 1981-1982 recession, which resulted from the monetary policy that broke the back of the roaring 1970s inflation, recovered all of the jobs lost during that recession within 36 months. At this point in the Reagan recovery, jobs had grown nearly 10% higher than when the recession started, representing an increase of more than 10 million more jobs.

Similarly, in the 11 post depression recessions before President Obama, the economy recovered the lost GDP during the recession within an average of 4.5 quarters after the recession started. But it took Obama’s recovery 16 quarters, or 4 years, to reach that point. Today, 51/2 years, or 22 quarters, after the recession started, the economy (real GDP) has grown only about 3% above where it was when the recession started. By sharp contrast, at this point in the Reagan recovery, the economy had boomed by about 20%, or one fifth.

I am not sure about all the statictics used here. As you know there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

However, This…

Since the Great Depression, there have been 11 other recessions in America before this last one. In all those recessions, the economy recovered all jobs lost during the recession an average of 25 months after the recession began. So the job effects of prior post Depression recessions lasted an average of about 2 years. But here we are today, 51/2 years, or 67 months, after the recession started, and we still have not recovered all of the jobs lost during the recession. As AEI President Arthur Brooks wrote in the Wall Street Journal last Thursday,

They keep comparing this latest recession to the others since the Great Depression. There really is no comparison. This last one was the Great Recession and could have led to a Depression without swift action.

124 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 6, 2014 1:16:13pm

re: #115 darthstar

This Obama/banana thing was borrowed straight from your wingnuts. The fucking racist Rodnina tweeted it (before claiming her account had been hacked), then it was displayed as ad posters in some cities (which fact was cheered by various communists, from which you can make conclusions about the state of that movement in Russia).

125 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 1:21:02pm

re: #124 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

This Obama/banana thing was borrowed straight from your wingnuts. The fucking racist Rodnina tweeted it (before claiming her account had been hacked), then it was displayed as ad posters in some cities (which fact was cheered by various communists, from which you can make conclusions about the state of that movement in Russia).

Yep……….I seem to recall a time when Communists were vehemently opposed to any and all forms of racism.

Here in Ostrava, there’s a street named after Patrice Lumumba; it’s the street my local cinema is on. I think there was a statue of Mr. Lumumba there as well at one time, but the plinth is the only thing left now. I’ll have to ask one of the long-time locals about it.

126 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 1:21:28pm

Looks like Mary Fallin has some self-preservation:

Oklahoma Gov. Will Skip Local GOP Fundraiser With KKK Discussion

Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin (R) will not go to a local Republican Party fundraiser after the party distributed flyers advertising a Ku Klux Klan discussion at the event, Business Insider reported on Wednesday.

In the flyers, the Garvin County Republicans promoted a chat about “some things that you may not know” about the KKK. One of the event’s organizers said that the discussion would be focused on how some Democrats can be tied to the Klan and said that the event was not “connected” to the KKK, according to Business Insider.

The flyer advertised that Fallin would speak at the “GOP Bean Feed” event, but a spokesman for the governor, Alex Weintz, told Business Insider that Fallin declined to attend the fundraiser.

“They had invited her to go, we had said we would look to put it on her schedule. She is not going,” Weintz said.

Weintz would not say whether the KKK discussion prompted Fallin to skip the event.

127 blueraven  Aug 6, 2014 1:21:30pm

re: #123 blueraven

I am not sure about all the statictics used here. As you know there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

However, This…

They keep comparing this latest recession to the others since the Great Depression. There really is no comparison. This last one was the Great Recession and could have led to a Depression without swift action.

Not to mention the fact that the Democrats didn’t obstruct every damn thing Reagan did. Here we were in the worst economic crisis since the great depression and the republicans wouldn’t do jack to help.
Their plan from the beginning was to make Obama fail. Well he didn’t, and screw them for putting party over country.

128 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 6, 2014 1:22:34pm

re: #125 Dr Lizardo

Yep……….I seem to recall a time when Communists were vehemently opposed to any and all forms of racism.

Officially and publicly, yes. Internally racism was flourishing (antisemitism, ethnic deportations, “national operations” in 37-38…).

129 Romantic Heretic  Aug 6, 2014 1:26:52pm

re: #83 b_sharp

Why do these analyses ignore what went on in other countries at the time? The US isn’t the only country affected by or that affects the world economy.

Yes! Only America matters. That’s why the rest of the world hates us!

130 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 6, 2014 1:26:56pm

re: #126 Lidane

The arrogance. Of course KKK consisted of that very breed of Dems that later went over to the Rs. So not only conservatives are to blame for KKK, they’re trying to shift their own blame on the Dems. Scum.

131 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 1:28:02pm

re: #128 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Officially and publicly, yes. Internally the racism was flourishing (antisemitism, ethnic deportations…).

At heart we’re all just a bunch of chimps jealous of the size of the other chimp’s banana.

132 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 1:28:52pm

re: #127 blueraven

Not to mention the fact that the Democrats didn’t obstruct every damn thing Reagan did. Here we were in the worst economic crisis since the great depression and the republicans wouldn’t do jack to help.
Their plan from the beginning was to make Obama fail. Well he didn’t, and screw them for putting party over country.

The only reason the GOP saboteurs in Congress aren’t traitors is because of the explicit definition of treason in the US constitution.

133 Romantic Heretic  Aug 6, 2014 1:32:53pm

re: #103 RealityBasedSteve

It sounds like Michigan is trying the exact same arguments that have gone down in flames each time they have been used. I love the generic “Widespread” in response to “what problems will it cause”. Yea…. I’m not a betting man, but I’ll give 4 to 1 the appeals court rules like every other one, in favor of marriage equality.

RBS

I’m not even a judge and I was asking the Michigan attorney, “Could you give specifics and not looney toon generalizations?”

134 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 1:33:00pm

Christian compassion in action:

Rick Wiles: ‘Ebola Could Solve America’s Problems With Atheism And Homosexuality’

“Now this Ebola epidemic can become a global pandemic and that’s another name for plague. It may be the great attitude adjustment that I believe is coming,” he said. “Ebola could solve America’s problems with atheism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, pornography and abortion.”

“If Ebola becomes a global plague, you better make sure the blood of Jesus is upon you, you better make sure you have been marked by the angels so that you are protected by God. If not, you may be a candidate to meet the Grim Reaper.”

By that logic, Wiles should be thanking Obama, since he thinks POTUS would use ebola to force vaccines on people and send them to FEMA camps.

135 lawhawk  Aug 6, 2014 1:36:07pm

re: #123 blueraven

Or the fact that this Congress and this GOP has steadfastly sought to undermine the President by any means available, up to and including sabotaging the economy to do so.

That includes not passing additional jobs bills beyond the ARRA of 2009, infrastructure bills, or any other stimulus packages that would generate jobs and get people working and stoking the economy. Instead, they’ve talked down the economy and made debt reduction the only game in town, even as they ignored debt from 2000 to 2008. To the GOP, tax cuts and spending reductions were the only way to save the economy, even though they’ve shown up time and again as the reason that the economic recovery has taken longer and hasn’t been as widespread as prior recoveries. Throw in the sequester, and you’ve got the GOP answer for the economy.

Oh, and now the GOP is trying to complain about how Obama is gutting the military because the Defense Department has to comply with the same sequester - automatic cuts across the board, and that means reducing troop requirements. FoxNews calls this “Obama gutting the military” when it should be more properly construed as Congress required military cuts to comply with their appropriations law.

136 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 1:36:11pm

re: #134 Lidane

Christian compassion in action:

Rick Wiles: ‘Ebola Could Solve America’s Problems With Atheism And Homosexuality’

By that logic, Wiles should be thanking Obama, since he thinks POTUS would use ebola to force vaccines on people and send them to FEMA camps.

If all he does is pray for protection against Ebola in a pandemic, then he’ll likely be the one to croak, while the rest of us actively looking to a cure or vaccine will be the ones surviving.

137 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 6, 2014 1:36:22pm

re: #134 Lidane

Lately this stuff is flowing like a murky foul-smelling fluid from a broken sewer pipe. I’m out of outrage.

138 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 1:36:48pm

re: #134 Lidane

Dear Mr Wiles:

If Ebola preferentially strikes down the evil (it doesn’t), then you would be the first to succumb to it.

Please FOAD. Now.

139 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 1:37:35pm
140 Randall Gross  Aug 6, 2014 1:38:14pm

re: #139 Charles Johnson

Interesting

141 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 1:38:14pm

re: #137 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Lately this stuff is flowing like a murky foul-smelling fluid from a broken sewer pipe. I’m out of outrage.

Once one has reached the conclusion that US right wing nut jobs are the scum of the earth, there’s no real possibility for further outrage (provided they don’t gain more power).

142 Testy Toad T  Aug 6, 2014 1:39:28pm

re: #134 Lidane

Christian compassion in action:

Rick Wiles: ‘Ebola Could Solve America’s Problems With Atheism And Homosexuality’

Because if there’s anywhere where God would start smiting a society that tolerates and even encourages rampant homosexuality, it’s sub-Saharan Africa.

Seems legit.

143 lawhawk  Aug 6, 2014 1:42:27pm

There’s that GOP minority outreach again. The OK Republican Party just happened to have a fundraiser for which the party distributed flyers advertising a Ku Klux Klan discussion at the event.

144 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 1:42:34pm

re: #140 Randall Gross

Interesting

Very interesting! Still very early in development though - been checking out the code, and it’s not something most people will be able to use yet.

145 blueraven  Aug 6, 2014 1:45:35pm

re: #135 lawhawk

Or the fact that this Congress and this GOP has steadfastly sought to undermine the President by any means available, up to and including sabotaging the economy to do so.

That includes not passing additional jobs bills beyond the ARRA of 2009, infrastructure bills, or any other stimulus packages that would generate jobs and get people working and stoking the economy. Instead, they’ve talked down the economy and made debt reduction the only game in town, even as they ignored debt from 2000 to 2008. To the GOP, tax cuts and spending reductions were the only way to save the economy, even though they’ve shown up time and again as the reason that the economic recovery has taken longer and hasn’t been as widespread as prior recoveries. Throw in the sequester, and you’ve got the GOP answer for the economy.

Oh, and now the GOP is trying to complain about how Obama is gutting the military because the Defense Department has to comply with the same sequester - automatic cuts across the board, and that means reducing troop requirements. FoxNews calls this “Obama gutting the military” when it should be more properly construed as Congress required military cuts to comply with their appropriations law.

I cant even guess how many government jobs were lost due to cuts, I am sure there are charts somewhere, but I know it was a lot. That didn’t help any!

146 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 1:46:54pm

re: #137 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Lately this stuff is flowing like a murky foul-smelling fluid from a broken sewer pipe. I’m out of outrage.

Personally, I’m impressed by the sheer level of ignorance, fail, and general asshole behavior from these people. Every time I think they’ve hit rock bottom they find a way to keep digging.

147 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 1:47:58pm

re: #146 Lidane

Personally, I’m impressed by the sheer level of ignorance, fail, and general asshole behavior from these people. Every time I think they’ve hit rock bottom they find a way to keep digging.

They’ll keep digging until they reach the outer core.

148 klys  Aug 6, 2014 1:49:16pm

re: #145 blueraven

I cant even guess how many government jobs were lost due to cuts, I am sure there are charts somewhere, but I know it was a lot. That didn’t help any!

Those aren’t real jobs, just for 47% moochers.

//// need I?

149 Dr. Matt  Aug 6, 2014 1:51:04pm

Polluted Waters, Ebola, and now this: A Bear Walking Around New Jersey Like It’s Human

Youtube Video

We’re doomed.

150 ausador  Aug 6, 2014 1:53:15pm

Sigh…

151 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 1:53:16pm

You know that minimum wage meme:

152 Gus  Aug 6, 2014 1:54:57pm

Ultimate Alpha™ can do no wrong!

153 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 1:57:33pm

I totally forgot about Little Miss Derpette. Heritage has taught her to stay away from Teh Nassssty Ghey.

154 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 1:58:30pm

re: #149 Dr. Matt

Polluted Waters, Ebola, and now this: A Bear Walking Around New Jersey Like It’s Human

[Embedded content]

Video

We’re doomed.

I didn’t realize bears could walk upright for such a prolonged period of time. I’m impressed.

155 Lidane  Aug 6, 2014 1:59:48pm

re: #153 Pie-onist Overlord

She’s still around? ROFL.

156 Teukka  Aug 6, 2014 2:00:35pm

This piece of news just came to my attention.
It is at this juncture y’all are expected to monotonically chant “please don’t let this be what I think it might be” over and over again.
I won’t page this just yet, I need time to digest this and research it further…
Vast methane plumes spotted bubbling up from the Arctic Ocean floor

In short, if this is what I think it is, this video is the 5-second summary: Youtube Video

My contribution to the list of pointed questions to climate skepdicks in light of this piece of news:
If there was a political party who by their ignorance, greed and lust for power caused a clear and present danger for the entire humanity, not just the United States, what would you suppose is a fair punishment after having been found guilty by a fair trial?

157 BeachDem  Aug 6, 2014 2:00:41pm

re: #134 Lidane

Wait—aren’t the Americans with Ebola affiliated with Franklin Graham’s organization? So, Franklin, son of Billy, is no longer part of their inner circle of goodness? (Hard to tell the players without a scorecard.)

158 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:00:57pm

re: #151 Pie-onist Overlord

You know that minimum wage meme:

[Embedded content]

Uh, how many hours does he work on a specific machine compared to how many hours the machine runs?

I’m not sure this ‘meme’ is really accurate or says what you want it to.

If the machine works for 100 hours for every hour at $100/hr he works on it calculated at $10/hr minimum wage, it’s saving the company $900 every 100 hrs they’re open.

Oops. I didn’t see the part about the 3 minimum wage workers. That raises the savings up to $2900 for every 100 hrs it’s working.

That doesn’t include the initial cost of course.

159 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 2:02:12pm

re: #151 Pie-onist Overlord

You know that minimum wage meme:

[Embedded content]

Nice graphic, except Ford & GM will pay him $22/hr to run a line robot, whereas the burger one pays 4x that.

160 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:02:57pm

re: #158 b_sharp

Uh, how many hours does he work on a specific machine compared to how many hours the machine runs?

I’m not sure this ‘meme’ is really accurate or says what you want it to.

If the machine works for 100 hours for every hour at $100/hr he works on it calculated at $10/hr minimum wage, it’s saving the company $900 every 100 hrs they’re open.

That doesn’t include the initial cost of course.

He’s likely on salary which translates to $100/hour based on a 40 hour work week.

161 William Barnett-Lewis  Aug 6, 2014 2:03:56pm

re: #158 b_sharp

Uh, how many hours does he work on a specific machine compared to how many hours the machine runs?

I’m not sure this ‘meme’ is really accurate or says what you want it to.

If the machine works for 100 hours for every hour at $100/hr he works on it calculated at $10/hr minimum wage, it’s saving the company $900 every 100 hrs they’re open.

That doesn’t include the initial cost of course.

I’m guessing, based on the machines similar to that I was around at a meat packing plant (earning minimum wage then, too) that any restraunt would have to have him on staff all the time it’s open and that they would need ot have at least two back up machines ready to go online at any given time.

All you need is to have a break down during lunch rush to have utter chaos and lots of lost revenue (lunch at McD’s in Hayward was good for several thousand dollars revenue on weekends.).

162 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:05:38pm

From Greenwald’s buddies at the Guardian

163 ausador  Aug 6, 2014 2:06:08pm

re: #160 Kragar

He’s likely on salary which translates to $100/hour based on a 40 hour work week.

McDonalds et al, on salary? Huh? Independent contractor, responsible for his own insurance, transpo, and benefits, yes. Salary? NO.

164 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:06:20pm

re: #160 Kragar

He’s likely on salary which translates to $100/hour based on a 40 hour work week.

Is the engineer employed by the food company or the robotics manufacturing company?

165 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:07:45pm

re: #161 William Barnett-Lewis

I’m guessing, based on the machines similar to that I was around at a meat packing plant (earning minimum wage then, too) that any restraunt would have to have him on staff all the time it’s open and that they would need ot have at least two back up machines ready to go online at any given time.

All you need is to have a break down during lunch rush to have utter chaos and lots of lost revenue (lunch at McD’s in Hayward was good for several thousand dollars revenue on weekends.).

I assumed he was employed by the robotics company and farmed out to the robotics company’s clients when the machines break down.

166 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:08:23pm

re: #164 b_sharp

Is the engineer employed by the food company or the robotics manufacturing company?

Figure the Robotics company would keep him and send him out to customers based on service calls.

167 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:08:54pm

re: #161 William Barnett-Lewis

I’m guessing, based on the machines similar to that I was around at a meat packing plant (earning minimum wage then, too) that any restraunt would have to have him on staff all the time it’s open and that they would need ot have at least two back up machines ready to go online at any given time.

All you need is to have a break down during lunch rush to have utter chaos and lots of lost revenue (lunch at McD’s in Hayward was good for several thousand dollars revenue on weekends.).

Yeah, I’d very much expect him to be part of the staff. Having worked in fast food, it’s pretty disheartening to see what happens when your equipment breaks down and the fastest you can get a guy out there to just look at it might be 30 minutes to an hour. Because even a simple fix might take another half hour of taking the machine apart, replacing the part, and then putting it back together.

168 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 2:12:07pm

re: #151 Pie-onist Overlord

Someone has to get the ingredients into the machine.
Someone has to clean the machine, or it’s serving salmonella.
Someone has to repair the machine.
Franchisees response: “You go first, let me know how it goes.”

169 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:12:19pm

re: #166 Kragar

Figure the Robotics company would keep him and send him out to customers based on service calls.

Those are my thoughts as well. That’s why I put the numbers out that I did.

170 William Barnett-Lewis  Aug 6, 2014 2:13:19pm

And on a completely separate matter, you all may have heard how the recent Alabama abortion restrictions were struck down. I found this section from the decision highly interesting:

In deciding this case, the court was struck by a parallel in some respects between the right of women to decide to terminate a pregnancy and the right of the individual to keep and bear firearms, including handguns, in her home for the purposes of self-defense.

At its core, each protected right is held by the individual: the right to decide to have an abortion and the right to have and use firearms for self-defense. However, neither right can be fully exercised without the assistance of someone else. The right to abortion cannot be exercised without a medical professional, and the right to keep and bear arms means little if there is no one from whom to acquire the handgun or ammunition. In the context of both rights, the Supreme Court recognizes that some regulation of the protected activity is appropriate, but that other regulation may tread too heavily on the right.

Finally, as to each right, there are many who believe, as a matter of law, that the Supreme Court’s reasoning in articulating the right was incorrect and who also believe, as a matter of strong moral or ethical convictions, that the activity deserves no constitutional protection.

With this parallelism in mind, the court poses the hypothetical that suppose, for the public weal, the federal or state government were to implement a new restriction on who may sell firearms and ammunition and on the procedure they must employ in selling such goods and that, further, only two vendors in the State of Alabama were capable of complying with the restriction: one in Huntsville and one in Tuscaloosa. The defenders of this law would be called upon to do a heck of a lot of explaining—and rightly so in the face of an effect so severe. Similarly, in this case, so long as the Supreme Court continues to recognize a constitutional right to choose to terminate a pregnancy, any regulation that would, in effect, restrict the exercise of that right to only Huntsville and Tuscaloosa should be subject to the same skepticism.

Full decision here: ecf.almd.uscourts.gov

171 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:13:23pm

“Hmm, what looks better on my resume? That I was the on site service man at McDonalds or that I was the on call customer support representative for a robotics firm?”

172 urbanmeemaw  Aug 6, 2014 2:14:23pm

re: #54 RealityBasedSteve

And she feeds them memes in a tiny dropper.

173 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:16:32pm

re: #150 ausador

Sigh…

[Embedded content]

Yeah, it’s just another case of Hamas using “telegenically-dead Palestinians for their cause”, because everyone knows all Arabs hate Israel/Jews more than they love their own children. We know this is true because Gold Meir said so. //

Now excuse me while I go flip my desk…

174 ObserverArt  Aug 6, 2014 2:17:36pm

re: #113 RealityBasedSteve

I don’t know…. there hasn’t been an appeals court yet that has ruled against SSM, since the Supreme Court decision earlier. I didn’t think that the Supremes took a case where there wasn’t a conflict in rulings between 2 different courts in a case like this. (and I could be entirely wrong, despite staying at a very nice Holiday Inn Express this week).

RBS

Hey RBS…how’s the Columbus area been treating you? Have you been able to get out and check any of the area out?

175 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:18:05pm

re: #168 jaunte

Someone has to get the ingredients into the machine.
Someone has to clean the machine, or it’s serving salmonella.
Someone has to repair the machine.
Franchisees response: “You go first, let me know how it goes.”

Ayep. On any given day, you’re basically playing the odds that the whole thing won’t just break down in the middle of a rush and leave you without any way to serve more than cold drinks and hot fries. What do you tell customers at that point? “Sorry sir, but the burger machine has died, so we can’t make that order.”

176 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:18:14pm

re: #167 Targetpractice

Yeah, I’d very much expect him to be part of the staff. Having worked in fast food, it’s pretty disheartening to see what happens when your equipment breaks down and the fastest you can get a guy out there to just look at it might be 30 minutes to an hour. Because even a simple fix might take another half hour of taking the machine apart, replacing the part, and then putting it back together.

Throwing out numbers here.
Let’s say 5 machines, 4 in constant use. That’s 12 workers at $10/hr or $120/hr. The business is open 12hrs a day. That’s $1440/day or $7200/wk.
The engineer works 40 hrs at $100/hr = $4000/wk.

If the machines break down a lot, then the costs of using them will be ridiculously high and not worth it. If they work well, then the engineer’s time can be pooled between several stores. Staples does that here with their IT people.

177 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 2:18:39pm

re: #170 William Barnett-Lewis

And on a completely separate matter, you all may have heard how the recent Alabama abortion restrictions were struck down. I found this section from the decision highly interesting:

Full decision here: ecf.almd.uscourts.gov

Thanks for pulling that out. Interesting mental exercise, with limitations, of course. Pregnancy is more likely to kill a woman that the mere lack of a gun will kill anyone. I mean, theoretically, having a gun can save you in certain circumstances, but just sitting around not having one on you is not deadly the way pregnancy can be.

I look forward to the cranial percussion from gun nuts who are outraged at the comparison.

178 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:19:31pm

Johnson told TPM on Wednesday that he believes self-proclaimed pastor Stevie Fielder was motivated to change his story yet again because he felt threatened by Mississippi’s attorney general.

Fielder, who told Johnson last month that he was given money by incumbent Sen. Thad Cochran’s (R-MS) campaign to bribe black voters, recently offered yet another wrinkle to the story when he was questioned by state investigators.

Fielder apparently told the office of Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood (D) that he was paid by a spokesperson for state Sen. Chris McDaniel, Cochran’s defeated tea party challenger, to do the interview with Johnson.

“THAT GUY I PAID TO TELL A STORY IS A TOTAL LIAR!”

179 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:19:40pm

re: #168 jaunte

Someone has to get the ingredients into the machine.
Someone has to clean the machine, or it’s serving salmonella.
Someone has to repair the machine.
Franchisees response: “You go first, let me know how it goes.”

That’s realistic.

“I’ll have an E.coli burger and salmonella fries to go please”

180 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 2:20:37pm

So easy to spot one’s own typos in the Spy…and I Previewed…

181 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:21:06pm

re: #173 CuriousLurker

Yeah, it’s just another case of Hamas using “telegenically-dead Palestinians for their cause”, because everyone knows all Arabs hate Israel/Jews more than they love their own children. We know this is true because Gold Meir said so. //

Now excuse me while I go flip my desk…

[Embedded image]

Stop it. What did the desk do to you?

I’m starting a desk freedom organization to stop this abuse.

182 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 2:21:46pm

ETA: Apparently, there is something of a server overload right now.
Go figure.
:D

183 William Barnett-Lewis  Aug 6, 2014 2:21:56pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

Thanks for pulling that out. Interesting mental exercise, with limitations, of course. Pregnancy is more likely to kill a woman that the mere lack of a gun will kill anyone. I mean, theoretically, having a gun can save you in certain circumstances, but just sitting around not having one on you is not deadly the way pregnancy can be.

I look forward to the cranial percussion from gun nuts who are outraged at the comparison.

The ones I hang around are lefties so they all like the comparison :D

184 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 2:22:07pm

re: #175 Targetpractice

Ayep. On any given day, you’re basically playing the odds that the whole thing won’t just break down in the middle of a rush and leave you without any way to serve more than cold drinks and hot fries. What do you tell customers at that point? “Sorry sir, but the burger machine has died, so we can’t make that order.”

Is that like “I’m sorry but we don’t have an large coffee cups today”?

I hate it when that happens.

185 wrenchwench  Aug 6, 2014 2:23:45pm

re: #183 William Barnett-Lewis

The ones I hang around are lefties so they all like the comparison :D

But y’all are the good kind of nuts; ‘enthusiasts’, not ‘humpers’ or whatever you call the nutty nuts.

186 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:24:46pm

I can’t take it anymore. Seriously. The left & right just keep projectile vomiting their stupidity & bias, apparently believing that they’re “winning hearts & minds” or some shit. Guess what? You’re NOT—neither effing one of you.

187 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 2:24:49pm

Just think of all the grunt secretarial jobs rendered obsolete by the introduction of PCs and digital information transfer. It took decades, but nobody would think of employing a secretarial pool just to type and file documents any more.

188 Stanley Sea  Aug 6, 2014 2:25:04pm

I missed this. Heh

189 Charles Johnson  Aug 6, 2014 2:25:49pm

DeskFlip

190 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 2:26:11pm

re: #186 CuriousLurker

I can’t take it anymore. Seriously. The left & right just keep projectile vomiting their stupidity & bias, apparently believing that they’re “winning hearts & minds” or some shit. Guess what? You’re NOT—neither effing one of you.

It appears on both sides, but the idea of politics and political discourse is to win people over to your side, not to brand them losers, fascists, communists, terrorist sympathizers, torturers, traitors, moochers, etc…

191 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 2:26:18pm

re: #181 b_sharp

Stop it. What did the desk do to you?

I’m starting a desk freedom organization to stop this abuse.

Save Our Desks!
Oppose Flaming Furniture!

;)

192 EPR-radar  Aug 6, 2014 2:26:19pm

re: #156 Teukka

I used to be disheartened that manned space exploration is pretty much a thing of the past.

Now I’m content with this situation, on the grounds that a species too stupid to avoid fouling its own planet has no business being in space.

193 blueraven  Aug 6, 2014 2:28:31pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe but about those stats…

Any of the following factually incorrect?
forbes.com

Wow, I just looked at this author’s profile.

forbes.com

I am Director of Entitlement and Budget Policy for the Heartland Institute, Senior Advisor for Entitlement Reform and Budget Policy at the National Tax Limitation Foundation, General Counsel for the American Civil Rights Union, and Senior Fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis. I served in the White House Office of Policy Development under President Reagan, and as Associate Deputy Attorney General of the United States under President George H.W. Bush.

A lot of Right Wing organizations dedicated to low tax, Deregulation etc…and he worked in the Reagan White House
He is a “gold standard” guy.
Also, he appears to be a climate change denier.

So yeah, I am sure his numbers are not bias. //

194 gwangung  Aug 6, 2014 2:30:48pm

re: #176 b_sharp

Throwing out numbers here.
Let’s say 5 machines, 4 in constant use. That’s 12 workers at $10/hr or $120/hr. The business is open 12hrs a day. That’s $1440/day or $7200/wk.
The engineer works 40 hrs at $100/hr = $4000/wk.

If the machines break down a lot, then the costs of using them will be ridiculously high and not worth it. If they work well, then the engineer’s time can be pooled between several stores. Staples does that here with their IT people.

Though if you think about it….just how comfortable would YOU feel about a machine breaking down at the height of your business? Once would put a dent into it, twice just might kill it….

195 Mentis Fugit  Aug 6, 2014 2:31:04pm

re: #149 Dr. Matt

Polluted Waters, Ebola, and now this: A Bear Walking Around New Jersey Like It’s Human

[Embedded content]

We’re doomed.

“By adopting the humans’ curious mode of locomotion, I have been able to remain undetected in their midst. My studies continue.”

196 Teukka  Aug 6, 2014 2:31:08pm

re: #192 EPR-radar

I used to be disheartened that manned space exploration is pretty much a thing of the past.

Now I’m content with this situation, on the grounds that a species too stupid to avoid fouling its own planet has no business being in space.

Yep. I’m content too. Just hope humanity takes this golden opportunity to learn shit.

197 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:31:08pm

re: #187 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Just think of all the grunt secretarial jobs rendered obsolete by the introduction of PCs and digital information transfer. It took decades, but nobody would think of employing a secretarial pool just to type and file documents any more.

In so many ways, it’s because the technology got easy enough to use that you didn’t need to specially trained to make use of it. Everything from word-processing software to digital scanners made it easy for an exec to handle a lot of that grunt work himself. After all, where the world be if everybody from executives to generals didn’t have Powerpoint?

198 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:33:48pm

re: #181 b_sharp

Stop it. What did the desk do to you?

I’m starting a desk freedom organization to stop this abuse.

I’m thinking maybe I should start table-flipping instead. I was gonna use this, but I’m not sure what the little blue critter (cat?) is saying…

199 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:34:09pm

re: #195 Mentis Fugit

“By adopting the humans’ curious mode of locomotion, I have been able to remain undetected in their midst. My studies continue.”

And Bryan Fischer has just locked down his survival bunker.

200 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 2:34:57pm

The thing with those burger machines is that they have to be shut down and cleaned more than once a day. Otherwise you are going to have food borne illnesses running rampant. Fast food already takes a ton of short cuts as it is. Does anyone think a harried franchise owner isn’t going to cut corners? It’s hard enough to keep a busy restaurant of any kind clean, having another complex machine with lots of moving pieces/parts is going to be a headache.

There are just some things that shouldn’t be mechanized to the nth degree, food prep and service is one of them. My guess is someone is going to come up with some horrid chemical “food safe” disinfectant spray for those machines to avoid the cleanup as often or more crap will be added to the meat to kill bacteria and other critters. It’s asking for trouble.

201 HappyWarrior  Aug 6, 2014 2:36:56pm

re: #198 CuriousLurker

I’m thinking maybe I should start table-flipping instead. I was gonna use this, but I’m not sure what the little blue critter (cat?) is saying…

[Embedded image]

Fuck you tabbbbbbbbbbbbbble? But yeah I don’t blame you for being frustrated. I’ve been having to read my cousin’s anti-Muslim screeds on facebook and his talks about how we should use our nukes on the ME. Just sickens me and he has the audacity to cal lhimself a liberal.

202 HappyWarrior  Aug 6, 2014 2:38:13pm

re: #200 A Mom Anon

The thing with those burger machines is that they have to be shut down and cleaned more than once a day. Otherwise you are going to have food borne illnesses running rampant. Fast food already takes a ton of short cuts as it is. Does anyone think a harried franchise owner isn’t going to cut corners? It’s hard enough to keep a busy restaurant of any kind clean, having another complex machine with lots of moving pieces/parts is going to be a headache.

There are just some things that shouldn’t be mechanized to the nth degree, food prep and service is one of them. My guess is someone is going to come up with some horrid chemical “food safe” disinfectant spray for those machines to avoid the cleanup as often or more crap will be added to the meat to kill bacteria and other critters. It’s asking for trouble.

I’d put customer service as another thing that shouldn’t be mechanized or digitized. There are some things in this world that are simply more better with human interaction and paying a little more goes a long way since you get a better product and more satisfied consumers.

203 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 2:38:20pm

re: #159 darthstar

Nice graphic, except Ford & GM will pay him $22/hr to run a line robot, whereas the burger one pays 4x that.

I don’t know how much the burger machine initially costs since there isn’t one actually being used anywhere.

Robotics are not used all down the line, only in specific areas like spray painting. I actually used to program robotics stations and PLC’s back in the day. Union guys could operate them but you needed a specialized engineer for maintenance and upgrades.

If there were a burger machine, it would have to be cleaned and maintained constantly. We’re talking about food, not spot welding. If you have a machine doing all your food prep how long to you think it could go without clogged up with grease and food scraps? You would have to have a guy inspecting it at least once a day.

204 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:38:35pm

re: #200 A Mom Anon

The thing with those burger machines is that they have to be shut down and cleaned more than once a day. Otherwise you are going to have food borne illnesses running rampant. Fast food already takes a ton of short cuts as it is. Does anyone think a harried franchise owner isn’t going to cut corners? It’s hard enough to keep a busy restaurant of any kind clean, having another complex machine with lots of moving pieces/parts is going to be a headache.

There are just some things that shouldn’t be mechanized to the nth degree, food prep and service is one of them. My guess is someone is going to come up with some horrid chemical “food safe” disinfectant spray for those machines to avoid the cleanup as often or more crap will be added to the meat to kill bacteria and other critters. It’s asking for trouble.

Ayep, I’ve heard too many fast food horror stories of what goes on behind the scenes to believe that franchise owners, already under enough pressure to keep up with demand during a rush, won’t just put off that daily cleaning schedule to the detriment of his customers. They’ll get away with it once without any issue and think “So, I don’t need to adhere to that strict schedule,” and it’ll be downhill from there.

205 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:38:36pm

Oh, and one other complaint while I’m at it: Why do my cats think that every time I bring an extra pillow or blanket to bed it’s for them to lie on?

206 gwangung  Aug 6, 2014 2:39:23pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Oh, and one other complaint while I’m at it: Why do my cats think that every time I bring an extra pillow or blanket to bed it’s for them to lie on?

They have you well trained?

207 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:40:16pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Oh, and one other complaint while I’m at it: Why do my cats think that every time I bring an extra pillow or blanket to bed it’s for them to lie on?

For the same reason that opening any kind of canned food in the house automatically registers as “tuna” in their minds and brings them running.

208 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:40:18pm

re: #206 gwangung

They have you well trained?

Heh, yeah, I guess they do.

209 HappyWarrior  Aug 6, 2014 2:40:20pm

New HBO Nixon documentary is fascinating by the way. I don’t think there’s an American president that fascinates me more than Tricky Dick.

210 De Kolta Chair  Aug 6, 2014 2:41:39pm

Before condemning this great servant of freedom why don’t you try reporting while swatting swarms of mosquitoes on your veranda and see how hard it is!!

211 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:41:50pm

Well… fuck

212 Mentis Fugit  Aug 6, 2014 2:42:59pm

re: #199 Kragar

And Bryan Fischer has just locked down his survival bunker.

“Run! Run! I’m coming for you!”

213 Bubblehead II  Aug 6, 2014 2:44:16pm

re: #211 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Well… fuck

Was just reading that. Massive methane releases not only from the tundra but from the arctic ocean as well, not good.

214 Kragar  Aug 6, 2014 2:46:06pm

re: #213 Bubblehead II

Was just reading that. Massive methane releases not only from the tundra but from the arctic ocean as well, not good.

If only those damn homos and atheists hadn’t forced God to remove his protective hand!

215 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 6, 2014 2:46:56pm

re: #213 Bubblehead II

Was just reading that. Massive methane releases not only from the tundra but from the arctic ocean as well, not good.

Yeah, if this keeps going we’re pretty well fucked.

216 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 2:46:59pm

re: #213 Bubblehead II

Was just reading that. Massive methane releases not only from the tundra but from the arctic ocean as well, not good.

Farts from the pit of hell!!!

217 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 2:48:04pm

I deleted the burger meme until I can get some more accurate metrics for it.

There actually is a burger machine but it’s not actually in production anywhere.

The practicality of installing a device just to get rid of some shit-wage humans is questionable.

218 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 2:48:05pm

re: #211 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Well… fuck

HOAX!!!

219 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 2:48:24pm

re: #203 Pie-onist Overlord

Sorry…I was just feeling snarky. The robotic burger machine is a good example of “Yeah, we could but should we build it?” techonology.

220 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 2:48:32pm

re: #207 Targetpractice

For the same reason that opening any kind of canned food in the house automatically registers as “tuna” in their minds and brings them running.

Yeah, you can holler their names till you’re blue in the face and they won’t come, but pop the top on a can, and they magically appear.

My cats even understand the word “tuna”, so I have to spell it when they’re in earshot. A friend of mine who was staying with me for a while didn’t believe it until I we were all sitting in the bedroom watching TV and the cats were looking drowsy. I looked over at her and said, “Hey, do you want some t-u-n-a?” No reaction from the cats. So she says, “Some what?” And I say, “Do you want some tuna?” Both of the cats’ heads snapped around in unison and they were on their feet and ready to go in a heartbeat.

My friend laughed so hard she was gasping for breath.

221 Bubblehead II  Aug 6, 2014 2:48:51pm

re: #214 Kragar

If only those damn homos and atheists hadn’t forced God to remove his protective hand!

I thought that was going to be the Ebola virus. But there should be a good “earth farts, mankind dies” joke in there somewhere.

222 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 2:50:52pm

re: #193 blueraven

Wow, I just looked at this author’s profile.

forbes.com

A lot of Right Wing organizations dedicated to low tax, Deregulation etc…and he worked in the Reagan White House
He is a “gold standard” guy.
Also, he appears to be a climate change denier.

So yeah, I am sure his numbers are not bias. //

In partisan memes like twitter pic & caption…. They are nearly all cherry picking the numbers. No matter the subject almost. Nature of 140 characters & a poster with a partisan message. Look we all pretty much agree this has been a long tough slow recovery. That one just wasn’t so much.

All the why’s and how and whos are beside my particular point-The direct comparisons are invalid by their very nature-Time and circumstances are just not comparable. Plus partisan biases.

Take those 53 months of job growth. Some of those were so little growth it did not keep up with population gains. Is that a long steady time of growth or is that a tepid recovery taking way too long to gain the numbers it has?

53 months is likely irrefutable. What that means, well that’s a matter of opinion. Varied & heated opinions.

223 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 2:52:14pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

Comparing Obama to Ronald Reagan is like comparing your current spouse to memories of your first big summer love.

224 goddamnedfrank  Aug 6, 2014 2:54:23pm

re: #164 b_sharp

Is the engineer employed by the food company or the robotics manufacturing company?

Exactly, and he probably services all McDonalds in something like a 50 mile radius, which at the average density of McDonalds per square mile in the US means he services 35 restaurants. A reasonable estimate has this displacing somewhere over two hundred workers per engineer.

225 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 6, 2014 2:54:57pm

re: #211 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Well… fuck

So let the oil companies drill in the ocean bottom. What can go wrong???

226 jaunte  Aug 6, 2014 2:56:23pm

re: #217 Pie-onist Overlord

From Momentum Machines: (momentummachines.com)

“…The issue of machines and job displacement has been around for centuries and economists generally accept that technology like ours actually causes an increase in employment. The three factors that contribute to this are
1. the company that makes the robots must hire new employees,
2. the restaurant that uses our robots can expand their frontiers of production which requires hiring more people, and
3. the general public saves money on the reduced cost of our burgers.*
This saved money can then be spent on the rest of the economy. We take these issues very seriously so please feel free to tell us how we can help with this transition.”

*Highly doubtful. The savings will go to the restaurant’s bottom line.

227 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 2:57:42pm

re: #225 Backwoods_Sleuth

Oh I’m sure some wingnut think tank asshole has a whole treasure trove of “facts” all prepared telling us all how methane is good for us and to relax and breathe deep.

Yay, it’s a fun filled fiesta of fabulously fantastical fucktitude. Whee.

228 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 2:58:19pm
229 goddamnedfrank  Aug 6, 2014 2:59:30pm

re: #187 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Just think of all the grunt secretarial jobs rendered obsolete by the introduction of PCs and digital information transfer. It took decades, but nobody would think of employing a secretarial pool just to type and file documents any more.

Nobody except Russia.

Russian Security Now Using Typewriters to Thwart the NSA

230 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:00:04pm

re: #224 goddamnedfrank

The up-ding I just gave you is an extra one for your response in that “What I Don’t Hear” thread. You totally nailed it. I think I love you… heh. ;)

231 b_sharp  Aug 6, 2014 3:00:14pm

re: #217 Pie-onist Overlord

I deleted the burger meme until I can get some more accurate metrics for it.

There actually is a burger machine but it’s not actually in production anywhere.

The practicality of installing a device just to get rid of some shit-wage humans is questionable.

I hope you realize I’m not doing this to piss in anyone’s cornflakes I’m just trying to sharpen up arguments.

232 goddamnedfrank  Aug 6, 2014 3:00:45pm

re: #230 CuriousLurker

The up-ding I just gave you is an extra one for your response in that “What I Don’t Hear” thread. You totally nailed it. I think I love you… heh. ;)

That thread pissed me off far more than I let on.

233 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 3:01:06pm

re: #226 jaunte

Burgers are cheap now FFS, what the hell do these idiots want? I won’t eat anywhere that has a machine like that. I want something resembling a damned kitchen at least. We rarely eat out anymore anyway. Our last experience was awful (Red Lobster, where the only thing that was good was the biscuits) and not worth the money. We’re forgoing chains now and looking for local owned places, enough shitty food.

234 Targetpractice  Aug 6, 2014 3:02:54pm

re: #227 A Mom Anon

Oh I’m sure some wingnut think tank asshole has a whole treasure trove of “facts” all prepared telling us all how methane is good for us and to relax and breathe deep.

Yay, it’s a fun filled fiesta of fabulously fantastical fucktitude. Whee.

It’s no different from cow farts! There’s millions of cows on Earth right now and we’re still alive!

235 Teukka  Aug 6, 2014 3:03:01pm

Night Lizards. Early morning tomorrow.

a.cdn-expressen.se
(Courtesy Armand Grobler / Barcroft Media)

236 ObserverArt  Aug 6, 2014 3:03:21pm

re: #214 Kragar

If only those damn homos and atheists hadn’t forced God to remove his protective hand!

Yeah…and don’t forget bears walking upright like humans.

God is pissed off man.

237 darthstar  Aug 6, 2014 3:04:07pm

Hard to tell if this is satire or not…

238 goddamnedfrank  Aug 6, 2014 3:04:31pm

In order to make an robotic restaurant burger machine work you’d probably have to install industrial gamma emitters to sterilize all the shitty little nooks and crannies, then install lead shielding to protect the customers and remaining staff. The whole thing would be a FDA, Health Dept. and OSHA nightmare.

239 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 3:04:49pm

Dim Jim Still Being A Horrible Bag Of Feces

240 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 3:05:40pm

re: #233 A Mom Anon

Burgers are cheap now FFS, what the hell do these idiots want? I won’t eat anywhere that has a machine like that. I want something resembling a damned kitchen at least. We rarely eat out anymore anyway. Our last experience was awful (Red Lobster, where the only thing that was good was the biscuits) and not worth the money. We’re forgoing chains now and looking for local owned places, enough shitty food.

The point of installing the Burger Machine is to LAY OFF MINIMUM WAGE WORKERS BECAUSE FUCK YOU POORS

241 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 3:06:20pm

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

In order to make an robotic restaurant burger machine work you’d probably have to install industrial gamma emitters to sterilize all the shitty little nooks and crannies, then install lead shielding to protect the customers and remaining staff. The whole thing would be a FDA, Health Dept. and OSHA nightmare.

HURR HURR ABOLISH ALL TEH REGULASHUNS!!!!!!

242 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:07:10pm

re: #232 goddamnedfrank

That thread pissed me off far more than I let on.

I typed up a long response and then said to myself, “Nah, gdf already covered all the bases; this really isn’t going to add anything useful.” So I deleted it.

243 A Mom Anon  Aug 6, 2014 3:07:19pm

re: #240 Pie-onist Overlord

Yeah I know, but for fuck’s sake, how much money do these mega fast food companies need? I’m so sick of greed taking the place of common sense and freaking decency. Gah!

244 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 3:08:54pm

re: #243 A Mom Anon

Yeah I know, but for fuck’s sake, how much money do these mega fast food companies need? I’m so sick of greed taking the place of common sense and freaking decency. Gah!

ALL TEH MONEYS!!!!!

245 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 6, 2014 3:09:10pm

re: #207 Targetpractice

For the same reason that opening any kind of canned food in the house automatically registers as “tuna” in their minds and brings them running.

re: #220 CuriousLurker

Yeah, you can holler their names till you’re blue in the face and they won’t come, but pop the top on a can, and they magically appear.

My cats even understand the word “tuna”, so I have to spell it when they’re in earshot. A friend of mine who was staying with me for a while didn’t believe it until I we were all sitting in the bedroom watching TV and the cats were looking drowsy. I looked over at her and said, “Hey, do you want some t-u-n-a?” No reaction from the cats. So she says, “Some what?” And I say, “Do you want some tuna?” Both of the cats’ heads snapped around in unison and they were on their feet and ready to go in a heartbeat.

My friend laughed so hard she was gasping for breath.

The kitty treats we buy come in plastic ziploc bags. The plastic makes a distinct crinkly noise when handled. When one or another gets out of sight I don’t walk around feeling a fool shouting “here kitty kitty”. I just shake the bag. Cut to dinner-I want croutons on my salad and the bag is the same kind as the treats. Kitties come running and get very cross with the smell of a garlic & olive oil crouton coming from a bag just like their treats.

Vocabulary-I can tell my Maine Coon has a way bigger vocabulary than the American short hairs we also have. It’s got to be a couple dozen words. If we say harness she will go rub on it or bat at it to signal wanting to go out in the harness which then includes a sidewalk stroll which she loves.

246 Feline Fearless Leader  Aug 6, 2014 3:11:09pm

re: #198 CuriousLurker

I’m thinking maybe I should start table-flipping instead. I was gonna use this, but I’m not sure what the little blue critter (cat?) is saying…

[Embedded image]

It’s a very artistic flip as well. Note how the items on the table land and balance on the legs!

247 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 3:15:03pm

re: #237 darthstar

Hard to tell if this is satire or not…

[Embedded content]

Apparently, ChristWire is a satirical website;

One of the Internet’s best kept secrets is the satirical website christwire.org. Every day, its contributing writers publish articles condemning homosexuality, atheism, Hollywood or some other perceived threat to American culture. The writers pretend to be hard-right Christian conservatives and, occasionally, they succeed in tricking serious news organizations into believing them. Last month, for instance, we caught NBC Los Angeles falling for a ChristWire article about the moral depravity of Bill Murray. The article called Murray a “murderer of lambs” and a “fatal disease” to society. Still, the satire was lost on NBC (they interpreted it as unchecked Christian fundamentalism and later had to issue a correction).

thewire.com

248 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 6, 2014 3:15:22pm

re: #229 goddamnedfrank

Nobody except Russia.

Russian Security Now Using Typewriters to Thwart the NSA

Because life and labor are cheap there.

In Russia, document file you!

249 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:15:32pm

re: #232 goddamnedfrank

That thread pissed me off far more than I let on.

I’m going to second CL’s appreciation, because you managed to articulate what was bothering me so very well when I failed to find any words at all.

Thank you.

250 HappyWarrior  Aug 6, 2014 3:15:36pm

re: #239 Pie-onist Overlord

Dim Jim Still Being A Horrible Bag Of Feces

[Embedded content]

Aren’t they being located with relatives who already live in Hawaii? DimJim’s making it out like they’re getting a tropical vacation courtesy of the U.S taxpayer. Of course, expecting honesty out of that slimeball is asking a lot. He’d rather the kids go back and suffer because hey tough shit if you’re not a rich person.

251 ObserverArt  Aug 6, 2014 3:15:59pm

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

In order to make an robotic restaurant burger machine work you’d probably have to install industrial gamma emitters to sterilize all the shitty little nooks and crannies, then install lead shielding to protect the customers and remaining staff. The whole thing would be a FDA, Health Dept. and OSHA nightmare.

That’s why ‘merica needs to follow the Texas Republican style of governance and eliminate all those nasty regulations so we can build burger making machines.

What could go wrong and think of the profits if a machine can whip out 500 burgers between quick cleaning zaps?

252 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:18:40pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Oh, and one other complaint while I’m at it: Why do my cats think that every time I bring an extra pillow or blanket to bed it’s for them to lie on?

I came back in from working outside to find Problem Child curled up on my keyboard and LGF in full screen mode with bonus developer tools open.

Chrome’s shortcut for full-screen is F11, in case anyone was wondering or needed to know.

/sigh

253 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:19:49pm

re: #245 Rightwingconspirator

The kitty treats we buy come in plastic ziploc bags. The plastic makes a distinct crinkly noise when handled. When one or another gets out of sight I don’t walk around feeling a fool shouting “here kitty kitty”. I just shake the bag. Cut to dinner-I want croutons on my salad and the bag is the same kind as the treats. Kitties come running and get very cross with the smell of a garlic & olive oil crouton coming from a bag just like their treats.

Vocabulary-I can tell my Maine Coon has a way bigger vocabulary than the American short hairs we also have. It’s got to be a couple dozen words. If we say harness she will go rub on it or bat at it to signal wanting to go out in the harness which then includes a sidewalk stroll which she loves.

Ha! I have the same problem with the cat treats. Mine understand at least a couple of dozen words also, mostly stuff that’s important to them—aside from their names and tuna are things like hungry, milk, food, water, finish your plate (i.e. I’m not giving you any more food until you finish what’s already on your plate), kitchen, potty, snack, bug (anything that flies or crawls, including birds), mouse, excuse me (move out of my chair, my spot in the bed, etc.), and so on.

The only word they don’t seem to understand is “no”. //

254 William Barnett-Lewis  Aug 6, 2014 3:20:19pm

re: #224 goddamnedfrank

Exactly, and he probably services all McDonalds in something like a 50 mile radius, which at the average density of McDonalds per square mile in the US means he services 35 restaurants. A reasonable estimate has this displacing somewhere over two hundred workers per engineer.

That’s the fantasy. Reality? One per store because it’s the only way they’d be able to keep running.

255 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:23:28pm

re: #198 CuriousLurker

I’m thinking maybe I should start table-flipping instead. I was gonna use this, but I’m not sure what the little blue critter (cat?) is saying…

[Embedded image]

I checked in with the husband. The romanji is bakayaro which can be roughly translated as “idiot.” It’s apparently a ruder version than just “baka.”*

* Moving in the direction of “stupid asshole” instead of just “idiot.”

256 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:24:49pm

re: #255 klys

I checked in with the husband. The romanji is bakayaro which can be roughly translated as “idiot.” It’s apparently a ruder version than just “baka.”

Cool, thanks! I was considering editing it to get rid of the text since I didn’t know what it meant, but that’s prefect.

257 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:25:43pm

re: #256 CuriousLurker

Cool, thanks! I was considering editing it to get rid of the text since I didn’t know what it meant, but that’s prefect.

Check the edit to be sure you saw that. It is …moving in the ruder direction for sure.

258 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:27:01pm

re: #257 klys

Check the edit to be sure you saw that. It is …moving in the ruder direction for sure.

Got it, thx.

259 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:27:30pm

re: #256 CuriousLurker

Cool, thanks! I was considering editing it to get rid of the text since I didn’t know what it meant, but that’s prefect.

If you want it to say just “idiot”, remove the characters after the first two. Then it can be not so rude. ;)

260 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 6, 2014 3:28:50pm

re: #250 HappyWarrior

Aren’t they being located with relatives who already live in Hawaii? DimJim’s making it out like they’re getting a tropical vacation courtesy of the U.S taxpayer. Of course, expecting honesty out of that slimeball is asking a lot. He’d rather the kids go back and suffer because hey tough shit if you’re not a rich person.

EIGHT—count ‘em—EIGHT kids were reunited with relatives in Hawaii.

261 CuriousLurker  Aug 6, 2014 3:32:24pm

re: #259 klys

If you want it to say just “idiot”, remove the characters after the first two. Then it can be not so rude. ;)

Nah, I think I’ll keep it. By the time I’m pissed off enough to flip a table, I’m pissed off enough to call someone a “stupid asshole”. Can you believe they even have an entry for it in the Urban Dictionary? Pretty much exactly what you just said your husband told you.

262 Dr Lizardo  Aug 6, 2014 3:38:04pm

re: #261 CuriousLurker

Japanese is a very expressive language.

Check this out - the opening credits to an anime called “Maria Holic” and below is the English - or as close to it as I can get.

Youtube Video

Blushing, getting exciting
Getting Hot my heart races!!
It gonna burst out, it’s gonna shoot out!
My heart is at High Tension!

I came here searching for my destined one, but
rolling up my sleeves, it’s hard choosing a girl.
These flowers are all at full bloom,
I’m so happy~♥ I’m caught in blooming [season]!

But why, why did he have to find out my secret?
He looks so pushy~

I was found out by him, I’m coming out…
I’m being attacked, I’m being tormented! STOP IT! STOP IT! AH♥HA~N

I’m driven up to a corner! I’m getting abused by him!
He handles me with the carrot and stick policy… (sadistic, so sadistic)
I’m being tormented~♥ so much that I want to run,
but his face is so my type!! (masochistic, so masochistic)

Sobbing, getting hot,
raging, IT’S SO EXCITING!
It gonna burst out, it’s gonna shoot out!
Nosebleed at High Tension!

The anime is about a teenage girl who goes to find the love of her life in a Catholic all-girls boarding school and instead falls in a love with a cross-dressing boy.

Yes, You read that right.

:)

263 klys  Aug 6, 2014 3:39:26pm

re: #261 CuriousLurker

Nah, I think I’ll keep it. BY the time I’m pissed off enough to flip a table, I’m pissed off enough to call someone a “stupid asshole”. Can you believe they even have an entry for it in the Urban Dictionary? Pretty much exactly what you just said your husband told you.

Completely fair, I just wanted you to be fully equipped with all the nuances of the translation. :)

264 Decatur Deb  Aug 6, 2014 3:51:37pm

re: #262 Dr Lizardo

Japanese is a very expressive language.

Check this out - the opening credits to an anime called “Maria Holic” and below is the English - or as close to it as I can get.

[Embedded content]

The anime is about a teenage girl who goes to find the love of her life in a Catholic all-girls boarding school and instead falls in a love with a cross-dressing boy.

Yes, You read that right.

:)

Does she become the gunner/loader on the school panzer team?

265 William of Orange  Aug 6, 2014 4:12:04pm

How can you be Holocaust denier with a Jewish name like David Irving?

266 CriticalDragon1177  Aug 7, 2014 10:20:36am
267 CriticalDragon1177  Aug 7, 2014 10:25:01am

re: #265 William of Orange

How can you be Holocaust denier with a Jewish name like David Irving?

How can any reasonable person in our society, who isn’t ridiculous ignorant, deny the holocaust?


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