FAA Shuts Down Airspace Over Ferguson at Request of Police

Shutting down the skies over Ferguson
US News • Views: 27,099

Now posted at the FAA website: 4/2599 NOTAM Details.

NOTAM Number: FDC 4/2599
Issue Date: August 12, 2014 at 1318 UTC
Location: FERGUSON, Missouri near ST LOUIS VORTAC (STL)
Beginning Date and Time: August 12, 2014 at 1315 UTC
Ending Date and Time: August 18, 2014 at 2000 UTC
Reason for NOTAM: TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES
Type: Hazards

Airspace Definition:
Center: On the ST LOUIS VORTAC (STL) 129 degree radial at 11 nautical miles. (Latitude: 38º44’28”N, Longitude: 90º18’12”W)
Radius: 3 nautical miles
Altitude: From the surface up to and including 3000 feet MSL

[…]

FDC 4/2599 ZKC MO..AIRSPACE FERGUSON, MO..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WITHIN AN AREA DEFINED AS 3 NM RADIUS OF 384428N0901812W (ST LOUIS VORTAC STL129011.0) SFC-3000FT TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. AIRCRAFT LANDING AND DEPARTING ST. LOUIS LAMBERT AIRPORT ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS TFR. ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT, TELEPHONE 314-889-2360, IS IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION.

Last night, police ordered media to leave the area. Is this really out of concern for safety, or an attempt to keep media from watching what’s going on in Ferguson for the next 6 days? It’s an unusual step, to say the least; normally police helicopters and media helicopters are able to share airspace in areas like this without fear of accidents.

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324 comments
1 CuriousLurker  Aug 12, 2014 1:57:54pm

WTF?

2 Lidane  Aug 12, 2014 1:58:12pm

The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom. These are not the actions of a police department that is serious about solving this kid’s murder.

3 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 1:59:53pm

Even during the LA riots, media helicopters were everywhere over the areas where the violence was taking place. I’ve never heard of this being done before.

4 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 1:59:55pm
Last night, police ordered media to leave the area. Is this really out of concern for safety, or an attempt to keep media from watching what’s going on in Ferguson for the next 6 days?

Can’t ever recall this happening in the US.

I’m sure the Libertay loving teaparty baggers will be all up in arms about this. //

5 Iwouldprefernotto  Aug 12, 2014 2:00:26pm

Once again, it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up.

6 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:02:07pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Even during the LA riots, media helicopters were everywhere over the areas where the violence was taking place. I’ve never heard of this being done before.

This is outrageous. How does alleged gunfire from the ground justify a no fly zone for legit media? WTF?

7 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 2:02:13pm

Now all they need is a way to ban cell phones, video cameras, and the Internets.

Sounds almost like Tyranny. Nah, can’t be that. /

8 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 2:03:18pm

re:
#6

And from who is this ground-based gunfire supposed to be originating?

9 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 2:04:43pm

This is some grade-A bullshit right here.

10 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:04:54pm

I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THIS IS DEFINITELY ON THE UP-AND-UP.

However, a complete and thorough discussion of this event requires the inclusion of the following detail.

Aviation safety is a very relevant concern here.

11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 2:05:12pm

This is beyond fishy. Next they’ll want to turn off cell service to that area.

12 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:05:39pm

My surprise, let me show you it.///

Now, it wouldn’t surprise me much (but it would surely enrage me) if there soon is news of Ferguson, MO PD “fighting back an assault on their officer” with great injuries and loss of life to the protestor side.
Or if there are mass arrests.

13 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 12, 2014 2:05:53pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THIS IS DEFINITELY ON THE UP-AND-UP.

However, a complete and thorough discussion of this event requires the inclusion of the following detail.

Aviation safety is a very relevant concern here.

It does provide them with a very good excuse to get away with it.

14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 2:06:00pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

They are not banning takeoff and landing for commercial flights this is banning low flying aircraft aka news choppers.

15 CuriousLurker  Aug 12, 2014 2:06:44pm

re: #14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

They are not banning takeoff and landing for commercial flights this is banning low flying aircraft aka news choppers.

And prolly drones.

16 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:06:56pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

From the quote above:

AIRCRAFT LANDING AND DEPARTING ST. LOUIS LAMBERT AIRPORT ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS TFR.

17 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 2:07:35pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

AIRCRAFT LANDING AND DEPARTING ST. LOUIS LAMBERT AIRPORT ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS TFR.

The aircraft landing and departing from that airport are exempt.

18 darthstar  Aug 12, 2014 2:07:36pm

Ferguson really needs to do something about their white people…they’re really getting out of control.

19 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 2:07:43pm

Since the only threat so far is the police, this sounds like the police are threatening to bring down news helicopters or they’re so poorly trained they’ll use live ammo capable of bringing down a helicopter on the crowds and just accidentally shoot at a copter.

20 klys  Aug 12, 2014 2:07:52pm

I see the prompt for my rant on extraneous spaces in punctuation decided to join a main thread.

I think I will go continue my grocery shopping rather than spork my eyes out.

21 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:08:05pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THIS IS DEFINITELY ON THE UP-AND-UP.

However, a complete and thorough discussion of this event requires the inclusion of the following detail.

Aviation safety is a very relevant concern here.

Fair enough. I live in a place with 3 airports, 2 that serve jets. We also have a couple freeways, and every time we get a big wreck on the freeway, or a police pursuit, the sky fills with news choppers.

So what makes that place right now different?

22 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 2:08:56pm

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

Fair enough. I live in a place with 3 airports, 2 that serve jets. We also have a couple freeways, and every time we get a big wreck on the freeway, or a police pursuit, the sky fills with news choppers.

So what makes that place right now different?

That is the $64,000 question. What is it that FPD are doing or planning to do that they’d want there to be no media around?

23 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:09:35pm

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

Fair enough. I live in a place with 3 airports, 2 that serve jets. We also have a couple freeways, and every time we get a big wreck on the freeway, or a police pursuit, the sky fills with news choppers.

So what makes that place right now different?

You’re right. This doesn’t smell right. This reeks. Kinda how the Russian annexation of Crimea reeked.

24 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 2:10:14pm

re: #15 CuriousLurker

And prolly drones.

Are those more threatening than regular drones?

25 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:11:29pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

That is the $64,000 question. What is it that FPD are doing or planning to do that they’d want there to be no media around?

<tinfoil>Mass arrests. Mass violence against demonstrators. Cover of media darkness to take out the witnesses to the shooting?</tinfoil>

Just a couple I can come to think of on the top of my head.

26 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 2:12:24pm

The Ferguson PD kicking out the media and now enacting a “no-fly zone” over the city…..

WTF?

Are they planning a massacre or something and they don’t want prying eyes involved? One thing I learned from observation by the time I was about 15 or so is that when the authorities kick the media out of a particular area, well….that’s when the shit’s gonna hit the fan nine out of ten times.

But this no-fly zone? Seriously…….are the Ferguson PD planning to go on some kind of horrific rampage against the town’s African-American population or something?

Because that’s what comes to mind.

27 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 2:13:02pm

re: #25 Teukka

<tinfoil>Mass arrests. Mass violence against demonstrators. Cover of media darkness to take out the witnesses to the shooting?</tinfoil>

Just a couple I can come to think of on the top of my head.

The last perhaps not so likely, but the first two have crossed my mind. I’m getting a very uncomfortable Kent State vibe right now. As if the cops are looking for a lull in the media’s attention to start cracking skulls.

28 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:13:09pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

BTW the FAA rarely if ever hesitates to agree to these requests. They are not there to protect the 1st amendment or the media.

29 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:13:17pm

re: #14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

They are not banning takeoff and landing for commercial flights this is banning low flying aircraft aka news choppers.

That’s what I get for not, like, reading.

Derp.

30 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:13:19pm

This is genuinely getting scary.

31 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:13:27pm

re: #26 Dr Lizardo

That, or “handling” any witnesses to the original incident which might embarrass them.

32 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:14:18pm

I become more and more opposed ot the wingnut fallacy “Local is better” every day with this kind of shit.

33 CuriousLurker  Aug 12, 2014 2:14:23pm

I’m not gonna speculate on why this no-fly zone has been put up, but y’all are right that it stinks to high heaven. This isn’t gonna end well.

34 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:14:57pm

Some people on Twitter are saying that the restriction has been lifted, but I’m not sure they really understand the FAA notice.

35 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:15:56pm

Mother, mother
There’s too many of you crying
Brother, brother, brother
There’s far too many of you dying
You know we’ve got to find a way
To bring some lovin’ here today, yeah

Father, father
We don’t need to escalate
You see, war is not the answer
For only love can conquer hate
You know we’ve got to find a way
To bring some lovin’ here today

Picket lines and picket sign
Don’t punish me with brutality
Talk to me
So you can see
Oh, what’s going on
What’s going
What’s going on
What’s going on

Right on, baby
Right on
Right on

Mother, mother
Everybody thinks we’re wrong
Oh, but who are they to judge us
Simply because our hair is long
Oh, you know we’ve got to find a way
To bring some understanding here today

Picket lines and picket signs
Don’t punish me with brutality
Come on talk to me
So you can see
What’s going on
What’s going on
Tell me what’s going on
I’ll tell you ya, what’s going on

Right on, baby
Right on, baby
Right on, baby

36 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:16:11pm
37 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 2:16:33pm

I’ll wait for Glenn Beck or Fox News to tell me what to think about this, or if I should think about it at all. BENGHAZI11111

38 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 2:16:37pm

re: #29 Testy Toad T

It happens.

39 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:16:47pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

And with that any remaining conservative who had any sympathy for Brown’s family will immediately turn against him because OBAMA!

40 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 2:16:54pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

Cue next rightwing freakout over that tweet.

41 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:17:38pm

re: #40 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Cue next rightwing freakout over that tweet.

Yes, I still remember the freak out when Obama said that if he had a son hat he would look like Treyvon. This is going to get ugly. Expect more right wing racist bullshit.

42 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:18:05pm

re: #33 CuriousLurker

I’m not gonna speculate on why this no-fly zone has been put up, but y’all are right that it stinks to high heaven. This isn’t gonna end well.

The most probable reason is that they don’t want helicopters, drones, etc. posing a problem or danger to planes taking off or landing from the airport. This is a little silly because they could just solve the problem by paying attention to flight plans or mandating a minimum altitude for choppers over the town. However, I don’t think that Ferguson PD are about to commit a ton of atrocities and want no witnesses; that’s incredibly implausible in the days of cell-phone recording and near-instant uploading.

43 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 2:18:22pm

Hurr hurr Obummer issues statement for this blah boy but nothing for are heroes like Chris Kyle or the Benghazi4 or that guy in Mexico!!!!!1

44 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Aug 12, 2014 2:18:50pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

Fox report:

“Obama sends words of encouragement to looters and rioters in Ferguson”

45 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:24pm

re: #44 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Fox report:

“Obama sends words of encouragement to looters and rioters in Ferguson”

We all know that’s coming and more accusations that Obama hates whitey.

46 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:29pm
47 Bulworth  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:34pm

re:
#36

This is part of Obama’s war on white people.

////

48 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:39pm

re: #43 Bulworth

Hurr hurr Obummer issues statement for this blah boy but nothing for are heroes like Chris Kyle or the Benghazi4 or that guy in Mexico!!!!!1

Yep I can see it now.

49 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:48pm

If a transparent police action is good and an opaque police action is bad, this is looking downright evil.

50 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:51pm

re: #44 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Fox report:

“Obama sends words of encouragement to looters and rioters in Ferguson”

I can actually see that as a headline on Dim Jim’s site or on Breitbart; maybe a new article by Ben Shapiro.

51 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:19:52pm

From the 2/2599 NOTAM:

From the surface up to and including 3000 feet MSL

So it’s aimed at low-flying aircraft such as media helicopters.

52 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 2:20:14pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

That is the $64,000 question. What is it that FPD are doing or planning to do that they’d want there to be no media around?

More and more, I’m getting the feeling that this is less about quelling any type of disturbance (after all, the looting went on the other night with a large police presence nearby) and more about exacting revenge on the community.

If cell phone service starts getting jammed, then I’m really going to worry.

53 Shiplord Kirel  Aug 12, 2014 2:20:21pm

If this is what it looks like, an attempt to suppress media coverage, that, combined with what else we have seen, would seem to justify some drastic action by the President:

Insurrection Act of 1807:

§ 333. Interference with State and Federal law

The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—
(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.
In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.
(emphasis added)

The 82nd Airborne is just a couple of hundred miles away at Fort Campbell. Federal marshals and FBI agents can go along to supervise.

54 CuriousLurker  Aug 12, 2014 2:21:06pm

re: #35 HappyWarrior

Youtube Video

55 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:22:25pm

To keep up on the status of the NOTAM here is the FAA link for NOTAM searches
notams.aim.faa.gov

It’s still up

!FDC 4/2599 ZKC MO..AIRSPACE FERGUSON, MO..TEMPORARY FLIGHT
RESTRICTIONS WITHIN AN AREA DEFINED AS 3 NM RADIUS OF 384428N0901812W
(ST LOUIS VORTAC STL129011.0) SFC-3000FT TO PROVIDE A SAFE
ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR
SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT.
ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY
POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. AIRCRAFT LANDING
AND DEPARTING ST. LOUIS LAMBERT AIRPORT ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS TFR. ST.
LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT, TELEPHONE[no phone numbers allowed], IS IN CHARGE
OF THE OPERATION. KANSAS CITY /ZKC/ ARTCC, TELEPHONE[no phone numbers allowed],
IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.
1408121315-1408182000

56 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:23:13pm

re: #42 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The most probable reason is that they don’t want helicopters, drones, etc. posing a problem or danger to planes taking off or landing from the airport. This is a little silly because they could just solve the problem by paying attention to flight plans or mandating a minimum altitude for choppers over the town. However, I don’t think that Ferguson PD are about to commit a ton of atrocities and want no witnesses; that’s incredibly implausible in the days of cell-phone recording and near-instant uploading.

Most likely the PD wants the opportunity to rough the citizens up undisturbed.
Now, if I begin hearing news about power and cell-phone service going out in town, that would be cause for fear of atrocities towards the citizens proper.

57 CuriousLurker  Aug 12, 2014 2:23:19pm

Okay, I’m getting stressed so I’m gonna cut out for now.

Later, lizards.

58 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 2:25:24pm

re: #32 HappyWarrior

I become more and more opposed ot the wingnut fallacy “Local is better” every day with this kind of shit.

It’s like “States Rights”, which usually means the belief that the State has the right to do, or condone something loathsome without interference from the Federal Gov’t. For folks who supposedly hate government, it is clear that the government they hate is any that won’t do their bidding.

59 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:25:46pm

re: #56 Teukka

Most likely the PD wants the opportunity to rough the citizens up undisturbed.
Now, if I begin hearing news about power and cell-phone service going out in town, that would be cause for fear of atrocities towards the citizens proper.

This is really more likely than police helicopters expecting to be active and not wanting to deal with crowded airspace?

I’m sorry, I’m just not yet ready to jump on the planned-police-brutality bandwagon.

60 TedStriker  Aug 12, 2014 2:25:50pm

re: #53 Shiplord Kirel

If this is what it looks like, an attempt to suppress media coverage, that, combined with what else we have seen, would seem to justify some drastic action by the President:

Insurrection Act of 1807:

The 82nd Airborne is just a couple of hundred miles away at Fort Campbell. Federal marshals and FBI agents can go along to supervise.

The 82nd Airborne’s out of Ft. Bragg, the 101st is out of Ft. Campbell (about 40-50 miles up I-24W from me).

61 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:27:17pm
62 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:28:05pm

re: #42 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The most probable reason is that they don’t want helicopters, drones, etc. posing a problem or danger to planes taking off or landing from the airport. This is a little silly because they could just solve the problem by paying attention to flight plans or mandating a minimum altitude for choppers over the town. However, I don’t think that Ferguson PD are about to commit a ton of atrocities and want no witnesses; that’s incredibly implausible in the days of cell-phone recording and near-instant uploading.

Here is the thing-the airports have been there quite some time. I’m sure they have pursuits and fires and events that draw news choppers from time to time. But somehow this time they need a NOTAM restriction.

Why this incident? And BTW I think drones are still illegal as part of any money making enterprise like news gathering or pursuit of saleable footage.

63 darthstar  Aug 12, 2014 2:28:57pm
64 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 2:29:57pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Wel, at least now any wingnuts on the fence over whether this was a justifiable shooting or a trigger-happy cop now know which way to lean. :-(

65 Shiplord Kirel  Aug 12, 2014 2:30:13pm

re: #42 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The most probable reason is that they don’t want helicopters, drones, etc. posing a problem or danger to planes taking off or landing from the airport. This is a little silly because they could just solve the problem by paying attention to flight plans or mandating a minimum altitude for choppers over the town. However, I don’t think that Ferguson PD are about to commit a ton of atrocities and want no witnesses; that’s incredibly implausible in the days of cell-phone recording and near-instant uploading.

As you say, the traffic conflict excuse doesn’t hold water. If so, though, what is the motive? Surely they know how bad it looks, they must think that having choppers around would result in something worse. “Atrocities” is a strong word and they would not have to intend something so drastic to be on the wrong side of the law and public sentiment. A Chicago-style mass chase and beatdown is not really an atrocity, especially not compared to what we see in the Middle East, but it is something they would like to keep under wraps. Finally, cellphone cams cannot provide the telling overview that overhead footage can. Anything they show can be dismissed as an isolated incident or a misleading moment taken out of context. This is not so with footage that can show everything happening in several city blocks at the same time.

66 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:30:18pm

re: #59 Testy Toad T

This is really more likely than police helicopters expecting to be active and not wanting to deal with crowded airspace?

I’m sorry, I’m just not yet ready to jump on the planned-police-brutality bandwagon.

Never underestimate how low a corrupt PD is willing to sink in order to protect its own. That’s the assumption I’m operating under here.

67 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 2:31:50pm

re: #63 darthstar

[Embedded content]

You know Norm always had something of an arrogant vibe to him but that just read as genuinely humble and from the heart. Robin seems to have had an amazing impact on those around him. I wish he could have realized that.

68 Shiplord Kirel  Aug 12, 2014 2:31:56pm

re: #60 TedStriker

The 82nd Airborne’s out of Ft. Bragg, the 101st is out of Ft. Campbell (about 40-50 miles up I-24E from me).

You’re right of course. I was thinking about both units and got them reversed. Brain fart.

69 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:33:12pm

re: #56 Teukka

Most likely the PD wants the opportunity to rough the citizens up undisturbed.

But banning helicopters doesn’t achieve this. Most videos of citizens being roughed-up are shot at ground level, because that’s where the roughing up occurs.

Now, if I begin hearing news about power and cell-phone service going out in town, that would be cause for fear of atrocities towards the citizens proper.

Seriously, you actually think the PD is going to, with the FBI investigating them, commit atrocities? You seriously, literally think this?

70 blueraven  Aug 12, 2014 2:33:49pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

O jeez…click on the @FAA
It is not what they think it is.

You would think a major airport would know that.

71 Randall Gross  Aug 12, 2014 2:33:54pm

Inbound politicians?

72 ausador  Aug 12, 2014 2:34:11pm

Only the airspace below 3000 feet is actually closed folks.

The Feds closed the airspace over the Bundy ranch in the same way back in April. The 3000 foot minimum altitude requirement (SFC-3000FT) only partially limits the ability of news helicopters to operate while still allowing small planes and larger aircraft free overflight.

73 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 2:35:26pm

re: #70 blueraven

[Embedded content]

O jeez…click on the @FAA
It is not what they think it is.

You would think a major airport would know that.

lol

74 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:35:44pm

re: #69 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But banning helicopters doesn’t achieve this. Most videos of citizens being roughed-up are shot at ground level, because that’s where the roughing up occurs.

Seriously, you actually think the PD is going to, with the FBI investigating them, commit atrocities? You seriously, literally think this?

It could be the fact that the FBI is looking more closely at them that is driving the Ferguson PD into desperation, like making a show of force potent enough to discourage most from talking with the feds.

Not saying it would work, just what the Ferguson PD might be thinking.

75 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:36:28pm

re: #69 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Seriously, you actually think the PD is going to, with the FBI investigating them, commit atrocities? You seriously, literally think this?

Some people seem to take bleak enjoyment in having everything be awful and chaos and end of the world eleventy. I assume it’s the same people that hole up and watch CNN cover a plane crash 24/7.

I don’t really get the appeal.

76 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:36:50pm

re: #74 Teukka

It could be the fact that the FBI is looking more closely at them that is driving the Ferguson PD into desperation, like making a show of force potent enough to discourage most from talking with the feds.

Could you answer the question, please?

You actually think the FAA flight ban is a precursor to the Ferguson PD beginning atrocities against citizens?

77 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:37:56pm

re: #76 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Could you answer the question, please?

You actually think the FAA flight ban is a precursor to the Ferguson PD beginning atrocities against citizens?

If followed by measures to hamper communication, yes. Otherwise, might be a very ill-advised attempt at showing force.

78 Iwouldprefernotto  Aug 12, 2014 2:39:10pm

re: #63 darthstar

thedailybanter.com

This story is awesome, Thanks for posting.

79 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 2:40:01pm

I seriously doubt the PD are planning massacres - that’s very unlikely. But I do think it’s quite possible they’re trying to keep media from seeing what they are doing, because they’ve already been very embarrassed by some of the coverage.

80 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:40:28pm

re: #77 Teukka

If followed by measures to hamper communication, yes. Otherwise, might be a very ill-advised attempt at showing force.

How is banning low-flying helicopter flights in any way a show of force?

Do you think it is in any way, at all, remotely likely that this will be followed by ‘measures to hamper communication’? Has this ever been done by the police before?

81 Lidane  Aug 12, 2014 2:40:47pm

re: #58 GeneJockey

It’s like “States Rights”, which usually means the belief that the State has the right to do, or condone something loathsome without interference from the Federal Gov’t.

Let’s all remember the history of “states’ rights”. It’s an idea that says that the states can decide who is a human being and who isn’t and that owning another human is legal, no matter what the feds say. And if the feds disagree? Well, then nullify that law.

“States’ rights” is at its core a deeply racist, pro-slavery idea.

82 goddamnedfrank  Aug 12, 2014 2:42:46pm

re: #77 Teukka

If followed by measures to hamper communication, yes.

All radio frequency jamming is strictly illegal for state and local officials under the 1934 Communications Act.

83 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 2:42:59pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

I seriously doubt the PD are planning massacres - that’s very unlikely. But I do think it’s quite possible they’re trying to keep media from seeing what they are doing, because they’ve already been very embarrassed by some of the coverage.

It’s the “circle the wagons” mentality, because I’m pretty sure the Ferguson PD has never been in the national spotlight like this before, and they simply don’t know how to react.

84 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:43:06pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

I seriously doubt the PD are planning massacres - that’s very unlikely. But I do think it’s quite possible they’re trying to keep media from seeing what they are doing, because they’ve already been very embarrassed by some of the coverage.

Quite frankly, I think a lot of people are falling into the same trap that a lot of right-wingers experience in regards to Obama. The Ferguson police must simultaneously be the biggest bunch of oafs ever to walk the Earth, yet they have this secret awful grand master scheme to block media access, shut down communications, effect a complete blackout over the area…

I can’t point to a single thing that the police have done that makes me think they have even the foggiest plan. “Shit, this is really embarrassing, let’s try to cut down on the coverage” is a completely believable motivation to me. Much beyond that stretches credulity on my end.

85 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 2:43:33pm

re: #80 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Do you think it is in any way, at all, remotely likely that this will be followed by ‘measures to hamper communication’? Has this ever been done by the police before?

Well, as Charles and others have pointed out, it’s very rare that restricting news choppers has happened before.

‘Atocities’ may be overstating it. Maybe they just was to deliver a good old fashioned beatdown to the protestors, and they don’t want that eye in the sky.

86 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:44:19pm

re: #80 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

How is banning low-flying helicopter flights in any way a show of force?

Do you think it is in any way, at all, remotely likely that this will be followed by ‘measures to hamper communication’? Has this ever been done by the police before?

Banning other low-flying helicopters than your own is an enabler for shows of force. You do the math.

As to shutting down cellphone service and/or mains, yes, that has been done by law enforcement before. Whether the Ferguson PD would get any sane individual signing off on such a measure is another matter.

87 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:45:25pm

re: #86 Teukka

As to shutting down cellphone service and/or mains, yes, that has been done by law enforcement before. Whether the Ferguson PD would get any sane individual signing off on such a measure is another matter.

Where and when? I’ve never heard of it.

88 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:45:26pm

re: #82 goddamnedfrank

All radio frequency jamming is strictly illegal for state and local officials under the 1934 Communications Act.

I was more thinking of shutting down cell phone service and/or mains. Will make getting any pictures you take to the outside world more difficult.

89 Lidane  Aug 12, 2014 2:45:39pm

re: #84 Testy Toad T

I can’t point to a single thing that the police have done that makes me think they have even the foggiest plan. “Shit, this is really embarrassing, let’s try to cut down on the coverage” is a completely believable motivation to me. Much beyond that stretches credulity on my end.

Same here.

This is a total Circle The Wagons/CYA move. They’re desperate and backed into a corner and they’re lashing out. The real question is why. Why are they trying so hard?

90 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 2:46:37pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

That is the $64,000 question. What is it that FPD are doing or planning to do that they’d want there to be no media around?

It’s not FPD. It’s St. Louis County PD. Whose CoP was the one who floated the “5-6 weeks for a tox report on the dead kid” trial balloon.

91 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 2:47:19pm

re: #89 Lidane

Same here.

This is a total Circle The Wagons/CYA move. They’re desperate and backed into a corner and they’re lashing out. The real question is why. Why are they trying so hard?

They are still convinced they can somehow make this go away.

There is no 21st century public relations firm in their world.

92 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:48:00pm

re: #87 Testy Toad T

Where and when? I’ve never heard of it.

Occupy Wall Street is one, I have heard of such measures to control unrest occasionally both inside the US and outside, basically put spanners in the demonstrators ability to communicate in order to incentivise them to not demonstrate.

93 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 2:48:26pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Even during the LA riots, media helicopters were everywhere over the areas where the violence was taking place. I’ve never heard of this being done before.

News helicopters were ordered away from the area where Dorner was cornered in the San Bernardino mtns (about 20 minutes from where I grew up)

The helicopters flew off and we did not see what happened after the fire caught hold of the cabin.

94 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:48:48pm

re: #90 Joanne

It’s not FPD. It’s St. Louis County PD. Whose CoP was the one who floated the “5-6 weeks for a tox report on the dead kid” trial balloon.

That this evil cabal (dedicated to “shows of force” or coordinated mass beatdowns or whatever) must span across multiple departments and jurisdictions ought to give pause to anyone seriously suggesting such.

95 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 2:49:13pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

They are still convinced they can somehow make this go away.

There is no 21st century public relations firm in their world.

They have guns and badges backed by the weight of law. I don’t think they see any need for public relations.

96 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:50:00pm

re: #92 Teukka

Occupy Wall Street is one

Reputable link? When I google, I see nothing other than crooksandliars and other such cesspools.

97 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 2:50:50pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

They are still convinced they can somehow make this go away.

There is no 21st century public relations firm in their world.

Big police departments usually have a PR department or a media department; I don’t know if Ferguson PD does - it’s entirely possible they don’t.

It could explain a lot of their bumbling responses.

98 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 2:51:03pm

re: #94 Testy Toad T

That this evil cabal (dedicated to “shows of force” or coordinated mass beatdowns or whatever) must span across multiple departments and jurisdictions ought to give pause to anyone seriously suggesting such.

The “thin blue line” meme exists for a reason. You do not have to suggest an organized conspiracy to see that LE individuals reflexively back each other up even when illegality takes place.

99 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 2:51:34pm

re: #96 Testy Toad T

Reputable link? When I google, I see nothing other than crooksandliars and other such cesspools.

Oh, pearl clutching again?

100 goddamnedfrank  Aug 12, 2014 2:52:17pm

re: #88 Teukka

I was more thinking of shutting down cell phone service and/or mains.

Thus denying many people in distress the ability to dial 911 and get help in a timely fashion. Not going to happen.

101 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:52:28pm

re: #98 Aunty Entity Dragon

The “thin blue line” meme exists for a reason. You do not have to suggest an organized conspiracy to see that LE individuals reflexively back each other up even when illegality takes place.

Oh, absolutely! But there is a vast, vast gulf between reflexively backing each other up and taking planned, coordinated action.

The suggestion has been made that this is a precursor to something bigger. That’s not reflexive CYA.

102 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 2:53:36pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

I seriously doubt the PD are planning massacres - that’s very unlikely. But I do think it’s quite possible they’re trying to keep media from seeing what they are doing, because they’ve already been very embarrassed by some of the coverage.

They want to impede the media where possible. It’s a childish tit for tat screw job. And btw according to the FAA after re checking just now the NOTAM is still active.
NOTAM #:
4/2599
Start Date:
12 Aug 2014 1315 UTC

Facility:
ZKC
End Date:
18 Aug 2014 2000EST UTC
Class:
Airspace
Status:
Active

103 gwangung  Aug 12, 2014 2:54:16pm

re: #101 Testy Toad T

Oh, absolutely! But there is a vast, vast gulf between reflexively backing each other up and taking planned, coordinated action.

The suggestion has been made that this is a precursor to something bigger. That’s not reflexive CYA.

Yeah, it’s close ranks, shut everything down, don’t expose to the press. Transparency is a dirty word to people who aren’t used to being challenged.

Any heads or brutality that happens is a by-product, not a goal. (Though to many, it’d be a feature, not a bug).

104 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:54:18pm

re: #96 Testy Toad T

Reputable link? I see nothing other than crooksandliars and other such cesspools.

Being an operator on a chat channel for protestors when comms go down, not once, not twice but more like five times, every time shortly before NYPD makes a move. “Technical Difficulties” or “Planned Maintenance” each time.

And that was for NYC alone.

105 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:54:25pm

re: #86 Teukka

Banning other low-flying helicopters than your own is an enabler for shows of force. You do the math.

I am not able to reach the same conclusion as you by doing the math, so please help me to do the math. How is it a show of force?

As to shutting down cellphone service and/or mains, yes, that has been done by law enforcement before. Whether the Ferguson PD would get any sane individual signing off on such a measure is another matter.

Can you please cite a time that cellphone service was shut down by LEOs?

Also, this was not done by the Ferguson PD, but by the county PD.

106 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 2:54:30pm

re: #101 Testy Toad T

Oh, absolutely! But there is a vast, vast gulf between reflexively backing each other up and taking planned, coordinated action.

The suggestion has been made that this is a precursor to something bigger. That’s not reflexive CYA.

To be fair, there’s no real way to know what is going on because when they’re not staying silent, they’re sending out their spokespeople to make laughable statements. Upon further reflection, I agree the CYA mentality is probably driving this.

107 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:55:30pm

re: #104 Teukka

Being an operator on a chat channel for protestors when comms go down, not once, not twice but more like five times, every time shortly before NYPD makes a move. “Technical Difficulties” or “Planned Maintenance” each time.

And that was for NYC alone.

So, in other words… no.

You should have talked to the media back when this was happening. Police jamming open-air communications is stupendously illegal and would have been an incredible story, and very easy to verify at the time.

108 Lidane  Aug 12, 2014 2:55:44pm
109 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 2:56:33pm

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

Thus denying many people in distress the ability to dial 911 and get help in a timely fashion. Not going to happen.

Before the Boston bombing fiasco, I wold have said martial law in a major American city with warrantless home entries, citizens on lockdown and familes forced onto the street at gunpoint were in the zone of “not gonna happen”.

I don’t make those predictions anymore. The moment that LE can invoke an “emergency”, every-fucking-thing becomes possible short of tactical nukes at this point.

110 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 2:56:45pm

re: #108 Lidane

No one could have predicted:

Gun Stores Say People Are Stocking Up In Wake Of Ferguson Clashes

My surprise, etc.

111 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:57:17pm

re: #105 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I am not able to reach the same conclusion as you by doing the math, so please help me to do the math. How is it a show of force?

Just shutting airspace down is a kind of show of force, e.g. “See, no witnesses, what are you going to do now?”, it also gives individual police officers peace of mind to act without having to worry about being plastered all over news in seconds.

Can you please cite a time that cellphone service was shut down by LEOs?

Being an operator on a chat channel for protestors when comms go down, not once, not twice but more like five times, every time shortly before NYPD makes a move. “Technical Difficulties” or “Planned Maintenance” each time.

And that was for NYC alone.

112 Testy Toad T  Aug 12, 2014 2:58:12pm

This one-upping-the-freakout atmosphere is really turning me off. I’m going to go kiss some jackboots or something.

Keep fighting the good fight, Obdicut.

113 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:58:53pm

re: #111 Teukka

Just shutting airspace down is a kind of show of force, e.g. “See, no witnesses, what are you going to do now?”

Except it doesn’t actually create no witnesses. There are still tons of witnesses. Including helicopters at above 3000 feet.

, it also gives individual police officers peace of mind to act without having to worry about being plastered all over news in seconds.

But again, they don’t have this peace, because someone can record them and upload it within seconds.

Being an operator on a chat channel for protestors when comms go down, not once, not twice but more like five times, every time shortly before NYPD makes a move. “Technical Difficulties” or “Planned Maintenance” each time.

This is not anything remotely approaching the beginnings of being the start of a ghost of a whisp of evidence.

And that was for NYC alone.

114 Shiplord Kirel  Aug 12, 2014 2:59:00pm

Buzz Aldrin’s message about Robin Williams has encouraged me to share something with the lizardoid empire.
I have been pretty depressed lately, and especially since my mother’s death. My beautiful new home, something I had worked for and dreamed of my entire life, suddenly seems like a bleak wilderness. I feel like a hermit and I am having other symptoms as well, lethargy, occasional nightmares. My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with. I still adore my children but they seem, and actually are, very far away. The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.
I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow for some routine old guy stuff, I will definitely bring it up with him.

115 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 2:59:17pm

re: #85 makeitstop

Well, as Charles and others have pointed out, it’s very rare that restricting news choppers has happened before.

‘Atocities’ may be overstating it. Maybe they just was to deliver a good old fashioned beatdown to the protestors, and they don’t want that eye in the sky.

Perhaps not atrocities…more like whatever the hell they want to do with impunity. The less reputable video means they still drive the narrative.

116 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 2:59:31pm

re: #109 Aunty Entity Dragon

Before the Boston bombing fiasco, I wold have said martial law in a major American city with warrantless home entries, citizens on lockdown and familes forced onto the street at gunpoint were in the zone of “not gonna happen”.

Martial law was not declared, and if it were, it wouldn’t be the police enforcing it, which is why it’d be ‘martial’ law.

117 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 2:59:53pm

re: #107 Testy Toad T

So, in other words… no.

You should have talked to the media back when this was happening. Police jamming open-air communications is stupendously illegal and would have been an incredible story, and very easy to verify at the time.

Not jamming communications. Simply requesting cell phone operators to turn service off in certain locations. I don’t know of much that causes signal bars on cellphones to disappear, above ground, in the middle of a city.

And each time, minutes before police action.

118 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:00:16pm

re: #115 Joanne

Perhaps not atrocities…more like whatever the hell they want to do with impunity. The less reputable video means they still drive the narrative.

Can you name a time when a helicopter video of police brutality was important?

119 William Barnett-Lewis  Aug 12, 2014 3:00:16pm

re: #108 Lidane

No one could have predicted:

Gun Stores Say People Are Stocking Up In Wake Of Ferguson Clashes

I’ve been listening to otherwise liberal folks talking this way.

OTOH, I’ve also heard several black folks who say they won’t be unarmed when attacked by the police.

120 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:01:00pm

re: #117 Teukka

Not jamming communications. Simply requesting cell phone operators to turn service off in certain locations.

If cell phone service had been turned off in Manhattan, there would be a torrent of fury and your claim would be extremely easy to prove.

121 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:01:02pm

re: #94 Testy Toad T

That this evil cabal (dedicated to “shows of force” or coordinated mass beatdowns or whatever) must span across multiple departments and jurisdictions ought to give pause to anyone seriously suggesting such.

I think it’s protecting the blue line at all cost.

122 goddamnedfrank  Aug 12, 2014 3:02:16pm

re: #105 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Can you please cite a time that cellphone service was shut down by LEOs?

There was a report of BART shutting down cell towers service on their platforms in 2011 to try and disrupt a protest. The FCC reportedly started an investigation but I can’t find out if they issued a ruling.

It’s worth looking back at the past year to see how the situation has developed. In the days and weeks after the cell service shutdown, BART invoked public safety as its justification for the cutoff. We were quick to point out that disabling communication networks actually runs counter to the interest of public safety. That’s one reason we joined Public Knowledge and other public interest groups in asking the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to clarify that BART’s actions were illegal under the Communications Act. In announcing our official comments to the FCC (pdf), we wrote:

It’s important to note that shutdowns of wireless service negatively affect both the public’s First Amendment rights and public safety. … Safety and free speech are not mutually exclusive; in contrast, they are intertwined, and by shutting down cell phone service in August, BART threatened both.

BART acknowledged the problem with their actions, and in October of last year promised to introduce a new policy restricting the circumstances under which it could manipulate communications networks. We offered suggestions to their draft policy, and BART board members pledged to implement many of them.

This is the only incident I’m aware of.

123 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:02:34pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

Buzz Aldrin’s message about Robin Williams has encouraged me to share something with the lizardoid empire.
I have been pretty depressed lately, and especially since my mother’s death. My beautiful new home, something I had worked for and dreamed of my entire life, suddenly seems like a bleak wilderness. I feel like a hermit and I am having other symptoms as well, lethargy, occasional nightmares. My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with. I still adore my children but they seem, and actually are, very far away. The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.
I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow for some routine old guy stuff, I will definitely bring it up with him.

Take it seriously. It ain’t just sadness over a loss, though it can obviously be a trigger. It may pass, or not. Myself, I’m not prone to depression, but I’ve learned it’s as real and serious as can be.

124 Botsplainer  Aug 12, 2014 3:02:38pm

The Ferguson Chief is a former SWAT guy.

flovalleynews.com

The City of Ferguson has hired Tom Jackson as its new Police Chief. Jackson will begin his employment with the City on March 8. He replaces Tom Moonier, who retired.

Jackson received an Associate Degree in Applied Life Science from Saint Louis Community College (1983). He then went on to receive a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice Management from Tarkio College (1986), a certificate in C.J. Education from University of Virginia (2005) and is also a graduate of the 221st Session of the FBI National Academy (2005).
Jackson was a member of the St. Louis Police Department for over 30 years, most recently serving as the Commander of the St. Louis County Drug Task Force. Other experiences include SWAT team supervisor, airplane and helicopter instructor pilot, undercover detective and hostage negotiator.

125 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:02:41pm

re: #98 Aunty Entity Dragon

The “thin blue line” meme exists for a reason. You do not have to suggest an organized conspiracy to see that LE individuals reflexively back each other up even when illegality takes place.

Beat me to it. This is exactly what I think it is. And honestly, at this point, they all seem pretty inept.

126 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:03:20pm

I will say this: As Charles said, there’s no reason for this order—which is for ‘law enforcement activities’ because cops and news helicopters can share the air just fine. While I don’t think anyone is doing this so that they can have free reign to crack heads and commit atrocities, I do think that it shows a reflexive hostility to the media and to general oversight among the cops that isn’t the least big helpful.

But I’m far, far, far more bothered by the cops’ attempts to corral, arrest, and divert media on the ground than on helicopters.

127 [deleted]  Aug 12, 2014 3:03:59pm
128 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:04:46pm

re: #122 goddamnedfrank

Hah figures it’d be from the Bay Area. BART is one of the shittiest of a host of incredibly shitty PDs out there.

129 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 3:04:46pm

Take that shit down!

130 Stanley Sea  Aug 12, 2014 3:05:23pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

((SK))

got anyone here’s phone #?

131 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:05:28pm

We don’t do home addresses. Take it down.

132 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 3:05:31pm

re: #127 Botsplainer

Don’t post personal info.

Ever

133 TedStriker  Aug 12, 2014 3:06:09pm

re: #127 Botsplainer

Take that shit down now, please, before Charles does it for you.

We are not going to be doing the Anon thing.

134 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 3:06:27pm

re: #127 Botsplainer

WTF are you doing?!

135 Botsplainer  Aug 12, 2014 3:06:49pm

re: #126 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I will say this: As Charles said, there’s no reason for this order—which is for ‘law enforcement activities’ because cops and news helicopters can share the air just fine. While I don’t think anyone is doing this so that they can have free reign to crack heads and commit atrocities, I do think that it shows a reflexive hostility to the media and to general oversight among the cops that isn’t the least big helpful.

But I’m far, far, far more bothered by the cops’ attempts to corral, arrest, and divert media on the ground than on helicopters.

Ferguson the SWAT guy, Ferguson the helicopter pilot, Ferguson the drug task force guy isn’t about community policing - he’s about coercion and control. You can see it across his career track.

Community college educated, drawn to the snappy uniforms and gun belts, he was never quite good enough at anything other than demanding respect from those over whom he had authority.

136 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 3:06:52pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

{{{Shiplord}}}}

The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.

I hope so too.

137 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:07:00pm

re: #126 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I will say this: As Charles said, there’s no reason for this order—which is for ‘law enforcement activities’ because cops and news helicopters can share the air just fine. While I don’t think anyone is doing this so that they can have free reign to crack heads and commit atrocities, I do think that it shows a reflexive hostility to the media and to general oversight among the cops that isn’t the least big helpful.

But I’m far, far, far more bothered by the cops’ attempts to corral, arrest, and divert media on the ground than on helicopters.

I, too, lean more toward the reflexive hostility to the media, and away from conspiracy. I think they see being watched as being judged.

138 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 3:07:05pm

re: #120 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

If cell phone service had been turned off in Manhattan, there would be a torrent of fury and your claim would be extremely easy to prove.

Are you really that dense? Cell phone base stations cover a very small area, typically a city block or less. If you know where demonstrators are geographically, which any law enforcement agency, even corrupt ones, surely would, you can simply place a call to the service operators and ask that the base stations for the blocks in question be taken off-line or be restricted to 911-only service.
No text messages, no internet connectivity, no means for protestors to communicate internally, and most importantly, no livestream of officer Bologna spraying a couple of girls in the face with OC.

139 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:07:38pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with.

I’ve struggled with this feeling my entire life and it’s only recently that I’ve begun to really be able to take any pride in my accomplishments. If you need someone to talk to, feel free to email me—as always, my email is just my name here at gmail.

140 Stanley Sea  Aug 12, 2014 3:07:40pm

Ya’ll calm down now.

BBL

141 Danny  Aug 12, 2014 3:08:37pm
Lambert Airport Director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge previously said that at the urging of police, the FAA had ordered no flights over Ferguson for the time being.

“There had been a shot in the air sometime Sunday evening, there had also been a helicopter flying over,” she said. “It doesn’t mean it was shooting at the helicopter but there was a shot into the air, so they put this temporary flying order in place.”

Link”>Link

142 goddamnedfrank  Aug 12, 2014 3:09:04pm

re: #138 Teukka

Are you really that dense?

Can you please not be that guy?

143 Eclectic Cyborg  Aug 12, 2014 3:09:57pm

Thank you for acting fast on #127 Charles.

144 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:10:12pm

re: #138 Teukka

Are you really that dense? Cell phone base stations cover a very small area, typically a city block or less.

Please provide proof for this claim. The base station bit, not me being dense.

If you know where demonstrators are geographically, which any law enforcement agency, even corrupt ones, surely would, you can simply place a call to the service operators and ask that the base stations for the blocks in question be taken off-line or be restricted to 911-only service.

Assuming that they did this for, say, Zucotti park, where are the reports from reporters about this disruption?

No text messages, no internet connectivity, no means for protestors to communicate internally, and most importantly, no livestream of officer Bologna spraying a couple of girls in the face with OC.

Why and how does it change the dynamic for that video to be released afterwards than during?

145 abolitionist  Aug 12, 2014 3:10:18pm

Idle speculation: Unsavory goverments all over the world are watching very closely as events unfold in Ferguson, MO.

146 blueraven  Aug 12, 2014 3:10:25pm

re: #135 Botsplainer

Ferguson the SWAT guy, Ferguson the helicopter pilot, Ferguson the drug task force guy isn’t about community policing - he’s about coercion and control. You can see it across his career track.

Community college educated, drawn to the snappy uniforms and gun belts, he was never quite good enough at anything other than demanding respect from those over whom he had authority.

What a snob…for real.
Community College educated?
Never quite good enough?

You don’t know shit about him and you are a dick for posting personal info too.

147 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:10:44pm

re: #118 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Can you name a time when a helicopter video of police brutality was important?

Why just police brutality? Why not just brutality? To that: LA Rodney King riots (Reginald Denny specifically). Video on cell phones from residents can be dismissed. News video is much more difficult to dismiss. They were threatening arrest of news outlets last night. Arrest of legitimate news outlets. When has that happened before?

I have no idea if this is what’s going on or not, but I don’t see it as outside if the realm of possibility at all.

148 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:10:44pm

re: #139 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’ve struggled with this feeling my entire life and it’s only recently that I’ve begun to really be able to take any pride in my accomplishments. If you need someone to talk to, feel free to email me—as always, my email is just my name here at gmail.

Imposter Syndrome. One of the more insidious effects of depression/anxiety. It deflates your happiest moments, and makes you feel like any minute now, everyone else will figure out what you already “know” about yourself.

Take care of yourself.

149 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:11:12pm

re: #135 Botsplainer

Ferguson the SWAT guy, Ferguson the helicopter pilot, Ferguson the drug task force guy isn’t about community policing - he’s about coercion and control. You can see it across his career track.

Community college educated, drawn to the snappy uniforms and gun belts, he was never quite good enough at anything other than demanding respect from those over whom he had authority.

Are we already writing the Ferguson fanfics?

150 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:13:03pm

re: #147 Joanne

Why just police brutality? .

Because that’s the allegation: The police have issued this order to prevent media recordings of police brutality.

Why not just brutality? To that: LA Rodney King riots (Reginald Denny specifically).

Which predates camera cell-phones. During modern riots, the vast majority of videos are shot with phones at ground level, or apartment-window level.

Video on cell phones from residents can be dismissed.

How?

News video is much more difficult to dismiss. They were threatening arrest of news outlets last night. Arrest of legitimate news outlets. When has that happened before?

NYC, during Occupy, for one. And as I said, I find that a lot worse, and a lot more problematic, than this FAA directive.

151 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 3:13:09pm

I live under the constant belief that everything I’ve ever worked for will be stripped away at a moment’s notice and there will be little or nothing I can do about it.

It makes self motivation a joke sometimes.

152 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 3:14:29pm

re: #149 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Are we already writing the Ferguson fanfics?

Fifty Shades Of The Thin Blue Line.

An erotic, interracial BDSM fantasy between a white cop and a beautiful African-American protester who captures his heart - and then handcuffs it.

:D

153 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:15:36pm

re: #116 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Martial law was not declared, and if it were, it wouldn’t be the police enforcing it, which is why it’d be ‘martial’ law.

When the police and the military become inseperable, you get a difference without a distinction.
These are all from Boston the day after the race:

Can you tell any realistic difference between soldiers and police?

People forced from their homes by…soldiers or police? Does it make any practical difference to you when men in camoflage point guns at you?

Nice lack of a search warrant.

Look carefully. Is that a normal police vehicle? No. That is a humvee painted for operations in Iraq…and the man inside is pointing an M-16 at the person taking a photo from his bedroom. I read elsewhere that he was screamed at to “get the fuck away from the window!” as he took this shot.

This is martial law. Noting that the army is not actually patrolling the street ignores the fact that police are armed, clothed and equipped as soldiers and have power to act as though you are, in effect, an enemy combatant without constitutional protection whenever they deem it necessary.

154 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:15:38pm

re: #151 Kragar

I live under the constant belief that everything I’ve ever worked for will be stripped away at a moment’s notice and there will be little or nothing I can do about it.

It makes self motivation a joke sometimes.

Jesus, I really have found a community of like minds. I keep waiting for the other shoe to fall. So far it’s been 32 years, but any day now they’ll catch on.

wish I was //

155 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 3:15:42pm

re: #142 goddamnedfrank

Can you please not be that guy?

Sorry, but it kinda gets on my nerves when people say that “law enforcement has never shut down cell phone service” when I saw it first hand repeatedly, several chatters on scene going incommunicado, each time to be reached by news and footage of use of excessive force from police officers and/or mass arrests once comms are restored.

No, I’m not a “fuck da police” guy, I have respect for law enforcement, but NYPD has a lot of work to do to earn back my respect. Their behavior during Occupy Wall Street still makes me question if they really are there to protect and serve, 3 years later.

156 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 3:16:26pm

re: #151 Kragar

I live under the constant belief that everything I’ve ever worked for will be stripped away at a moment’s notice and there will be little or nothing I can do about it.

It makes self motivation a joke sometimes.

Mind if I have a seat in this boat?

157 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:17:21pm

re: #118 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Can you name a time when a helicopter video of police brutality was important?

Yes. Back in 1992 or so, helicopter video of CHP beating a Hispanic woman after a car chase on the 93 freeway approaching Yorba Linda. The video was damning.

158 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 3:17:30pm
159 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:18:42pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

If those are lightning flashes, imagine just how big they are, since Uranus is a gas giant.

160 BeachDem  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:30pm

re: #146 blueraven

What a snob…for real.
Community College educated?
Never quite good enough?

You don’t know shit about him and you are a dick for posting personal info too.

Not to mention the guy’s name is Jackson, not Ferguson. (Talk about a dimestore psych analysis.)

161 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:41pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Must be the pickles.

162 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:41pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video

163 goddamnedfrank  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:44pm

re: #159 GeneJockey

Uranus is a gas giant.

I didn’t realize exactly how immature I was until I read this.

164 lawhawk  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:56pm

re: #10 Testy Toad T

I posted about this in the thread below.

The NOTAM specifically indicates that air traffic to Lambert (STL) is unaffected by the NOTAM for restricted airspace from 0-3,000 feet. In other words, general aviation aircraft or helicopters operated by other than law enforcement are being restricted from this particular airspace but commercial flights to Lambert are not involved. It’s one thing to be concerned about flights into Lambert being affected by a heavy law enforcement presence in the air, but the NOTAM doesn’t involve them.

This move affects media coverage, first and foremost. And that makes this all the more unusual.

165 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:56pm

Evening Lizardim from the wild north country. Ugh, this is shaping up to be an epic disaster. I thought we were better than this, America. What’s new among the lizardfolk?

166 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:19:59pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

Buzz Aldrin’s message about Robin Williams has encouraged me to share something with the lizardoid empire.
I have been pretty depressed lately, and especially since my mother’s death. My beautiful new home, something I had worked for and dreamed of my entire life, suddenly seems like a bleak wilderness. I feel like a hermit and I am having other symptoms as well, lethargy, occasional nightmares. My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with. I still adore my children but they seem, and actually are, very far away. The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.
I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow for some routine old guy stuff, I will definitely bring it up with him.

{{SK}}

Realizing that your mind is lying to you doesn’t necessarily make it any easier to disbelieve the lies. Take care of yourself.

167 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:20:17pm

re: #135 Botsplainer

Ferguson the SWAT guy, Ferguson the helicopter pilot, Ferguson the drug task force guy isn’t about community policing - he’s about coercion and control. You can see it across his career track.

Community college educated, drawn to the snappy uniforms and gun belts, he was never quite good enough at anything other than demanding respect from those over whom he had authority.

I thought Ferguson was the town, and Jackson was the guy?

168 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:21:20pm

re: #150 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Because that’s the allegation: The police have issued this order to prevent media recordings of police brutality.

Which predates camera cell-phones. During modern riots, the vast majority of videos are shot with phones at ground level, or apartment-window level.

How?

NYC, during Occupy, for one. And as I said, I find that a lot worse, and a lot more problematic, than this FAA directive.

I find the whole thing troubling. Cops calling residents Fucking Animals dehumanizes them. It’s easier to crack the head of an animal.

I’m not saying this is what’s happening. But I am collectively deeply troubled by the bullshit if these LEOs from insinuating the kid killed was drugged up to bringing in the dogs to telling the media to vamoose to gassing people in their own back yards. At this point these PDs make me throw my hands in the air and go, gee…what will they fuck up next?

169 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:21:31pm

re: #153 Aunty Entity Dragon

My conclusion is that you don’t actually know what martial law is.

Martial law is the elevation of military command over civilian oversight.

Are you saying that the Boston PD was, at any point, not commanded by and under the instructions of the civilian government?

Martial law doesn’t just mean ‘lookin’ military while you enforce the law’.

170 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 3:22:02pm

re: #159 GeneJockey

If those are lightning flashes, imagine just how big they are, since Uranus is a gas giant.

I am not going to admit to giggling. I do wish they had stuck with Herschel.

171 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 3:22:15pm

re: #163 goddamnedfrank

I didn’t realize exactly how immature I was until I read this.

I didn’t see it till you posted, but that’s because I use the British “YOUR uh nus” pronunciation in my head. Keeps me from tittering when I think about it.

172 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:23:05pm

re: #155 Teukka

Sorry, but it kinda gets on my nerves when people say that “law enforcement has never shut down cell phone service” when I saw it first hand repeatedly

Then you should be able to prove it: Occupy had reporters there constantly. Can you provide evidence of one of them saying their cell phone service was disrupted?

No, I’m not a “fuck da police” guy, I have respect for law enforcement, but NYPD has a lot of work to do to earn back my respect. Their behavior during Occupy Wall Street still makes me question if they really are there to protect and serve, 3 years later.

Why not their behavior otherwise? Occupy was not even special NYPD asshattery, compared to stop and frisk.

173 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 3:23:11pm

re: #170 wrenchwench

I am not going to admit to giggling. I do wish they had stuck with Herschel.

How is Herschel’s Anus any better?

174 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:25:01pm

re: #173 b_sharp

How is Herschel’s Anus any better?

Because then it’s not yours?

175 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 3:26:47pm

re: #153 Aunty Entity Dragon

Let’s take a little step back. You may have seen me post in protest at the warmaking equipment like MRAP being used by local PD, so hopefully you see I get your point.

But martial law is not about the vehicle, the uniform or even the tactics. In the event of martial law you lose all due process. All that goes with it is out the window. That might not seem to matter when SWAT kicks in your door by mistake and shoots your dog. But they can’t haul you away to the gulag or out back to be shot. The law will still support you if only after the fact. And the city will likely pay your damages.

176 Decatur Deb  Aug 12, 2014 3:26:52pm

Off to plot the Democrat Party takeover of Alabama. BBL.

(Don’t over-read the NOTAM. Just about anyone can request and get one, even a parachute club operation temporarily changing its drop-zone. They mostly just put the burden on an inbound pilot.)

177 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:29:05pm

re: #151 Kragar

I live under the constant belief that everything I’ve ever worked for will be stripped away at a moment’s notice and there will be little or nothing I can do about it.

It makes self motivation a joke sometimes.

{{hug}} I know just how you feel. Being a damn near tea totaler, I spent several months after my dad died self medicating with a half a fifth of vodka nightly. And I so wish I could go into details about how I feel about my work lately. Suffice it to say I completely feel you right now. I wish I didn’t. But I do.

Definitely talk with your doctor. Whatever help you can get, take it.

And forgive me for being presumptuous here, but I lurked on LGF for some time before ever posting and this is a fantastic community…and a community that cares about you a great deal. You may physically be alone at the moment, but you’re never alone in spirit. Look to your friends in this community…and you’ll hardly ever really be alone.

178 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:30:55pm

re: #169 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

My conclusion is that you don’t actually know what martial law is.

Martial law is the elevation of military command over civilian oversight.

Are you saying that the Boston PD was, at any point, not commanded by and under the instructions of the civilian government?

Martial law doesn’t just mean ‘lookin’ military while you enforce the law’.

The military remains under civilian control during martial law…and when police become indistinguisable from soldiers while enforcing a city wide lockdown, extra judicial search and seizure, and use of military equipment, weapns and vehicles…what the hell is the difference?

We never legally declared war on Iraq. Do you suggest that was no state of war between us and Iraq because we never actually made a formal declaration?

This is the same principle here. It is martial law…at gunpoint…carried out by agents of the state with the same uniforms, weapons and powers. Your argument is hair splitting.

179 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 3:31:14pm

re: #144 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Please provide proof for this claim. The base station bit, not me being dense.

Formal education in the field of electronics and computers, and the information for the sizes of cellphone base station coverage, a.k.a. “cells” (where the phones get their name from) is common knowledge among EE’s in the telecom field.
In urban areas in general, in areas with highrises in particular, cell phone coverage is limited to a short distance from the base station because buildings themselves limit the propagation of radiowaves and the need sufficient coverage to deal with a large number of people using the system at peak hours.

Assuming that they did this for, say, Zucotti park, where are the reports from reporters about this disruption?

What I saw was a lot of users simply stopping typing, some of them dropping off due to “Ping timeout” or “No route to host”, and when laying the puzzle afterwards, minutes before NYPD makes mass arrests or uses less than palatable tactics.
Reporters generally use other means than the cellular network for their coverage of events, like microwave links etc., which, ‘lo and behold, are not affected when a cellphone base station goes down.

Why and how does it change the dynamic for that video to be released afterwards than during?

It doesn’t. All it does is to make the protestors more on edge, and more easily spooked into providing excuses for law enforcement to intervene, especially when the pattern of cellphone service dying has repeated a couple of times.
To give an illustration, imagine you being in a demonstration along a planned route. Police stand in the way of your route, implying for you where to go, except they are leading you onto a ramp where you didn’t plan to go. Now imagine the grand old mess when you can’t call back to your demonstrator nerve centre to ask “are we supposed to go to the left or the right at X”, and the nerve center has no way of telling you “left damnit, left! It’s a trap to provide them with an excuse for mass arrests!”. And yes, the previous happened.

180 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 3:31:42pm

Nice little series of tweets. Click thru for a bit more.

181 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:31:56pm

I’m never alone because Jesus is my copilot, but he’s drunk and keeps crying about his ex-girlfriend Melissa, who he describes as having “Un cuerpo como un dinosaurio maldito” even though i don’t get how that’s a good thing.

182 gwangung  Aug 12, 2014 3:32:16pm

re: #178 Aunty Entity Dragon

The military remains under civilian control during martial law…and when police become indistinguisable from soldiers while enforcing a city wide lockdown, extra judicial search and seizure, and use of military equipment, weapns and vehicles…what the hell is the difference?

He enumerated several differences., which I’m not sure you’re paying any attention to. And I don’t think they’re hair splitting differences.

183 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:33:24pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

space.com @SPACEdotcom
Follow
Giant storms are raging on Uranus. oak.ctx.ly
5:00 PM - 12 Aug 2014

(Looking down) Really? I don’t see any!

:-)

184 allegro  Aug 12, 2014 3:33:30pm

re: #168 Joanne

I find the whole thing troubling. Cops calling residents Fucking Animals dehumanizes them. It’s easier to crack the head of an animal.

I’m not saying this is what’s happening. But I am collectively deeply troubled by the bullshit if these LEOs from insinuating the kid killed was drugged up to bringing in the dogs to telling the media to vamoose to gassing people in their own back yards. At this point these PDs make me throw my hands in the air and go, gee…what will they fuck up next?

This. None of these events are happening in a vacuum. They are tied together in a very disturbing string. They speak to a serious RWNJ mentality that also includes the “evil liberal media” and a militarized attitude that we have been seeing over and over again as it escalates to fear and fight minorities and “take are country back” from “Obama thugs.”

I sincerely fear for the people of Ferguson. It feels like an infected pimple is fixin’ to pop.

185 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:33:50pm

re: #178 Aunty Entity Dragon

The military remains under civilian control during martial law.

No, it doesn’t. The literal meaning of ‘martial law’, is that the military assumes primacy over civilian command. That is what the words mean.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

and when police become indistinguisable from soldiers while enforcing a city wide lockdown, extra judicial search and seizure, and use of military equipment, weapns and vehicles…what the hell is the difference?

That they’re taking their orders, in the end, from the mayor, and not from a military commander.

186 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:33:51pm

We all knew cats rule the world, but did you ever realize how to make use of this knowledge?

Unbeknownst to Coco, he’d been fitted with a collar created by Nancy’s granddaughter’s husband, security researcher Gene Bransfield. And Bransfield had built into that collar a Spark Core chip loaded with his custom-coded firmware, a Wi-Fi card, a tiny GPS module and a battery—everything necessary to map all the networks in the neighborhood that would be vulnerable to any intruder or Wi-Fi mooch with, at most, some simple crypto-cracking tools.

Of course, it has its downsides too…

Bransfield spent the next months painstakingly creating the WarKitteh, using Spark’s Arduino-compatible open source hardware and enlisting Nancy to sew it into a strip of cloth. When he finally tested it on Skitzy, however, he was disappointed to find the cat spent the device’s entire battery life sitting on his coworker’s front porch.

187 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 3:33:56pm

re: #172 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Then you should be able to prove it: Occupy had reporters there constantly. Can you provide evidence of one of them saying their cell phone service was disrupted?

See other responses.

Why not their behavior otherwise? Occupy was not even special NYPD asshattery, compared to stop and frisk.

It was when I really got wind of how unsavory a lot of commanders in the NYPD are.

188 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:34:09pm

re: #163 goddamnedfrank

Isn’t that how we stay young?

189 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 3:35:16pm

This is one of the things I love about LGF, that when a controversial idea gets presented, there’s always one or more lizards willing to say “Now hold on a second…” It’s what makes all the stalker comments about “echo chamber” so much bunk.

190 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:35:37pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

This is one of the things I love about LGF, that when a controversial idea gets presented, there’s always one or more lizards willing to say “Now hold on a second…” It’s what makes all the stalker comments about “echo chamber” so much bunk.

Are you disputing my claim that cats rule the world???

191 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 3:36:07pm

“Jesus, you said that once I decided to follow You, You would walk with me all the way but I noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints in the sand…

And then Jesus answered me, ‘Well, my son…that is when I was helping one of the other five billion people on the planet, you selfish fuck. C’mon! You were walking back to your Malibu beach colony home and stubbed your toe on some driftwood, it’s not a fuckin’ emergency, alright? There’s other people with real problems.’”

192 Targetpractice  Aug 12, 2014 3:36:22pm

re: #190 klys

Are you disputing my claim that cats rule the world???

Shh, not so loud!

//

193 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:36:50pm

re: #179 Teukka

Formal education in the field of electronics and computers, and the information for the sizes of cellphone base station coverage, a.k.a. “cells” (where the phones get their name from) is common knowledge among EE’s in the telecom field.

“Proof” doesn’t mean citing yourself from authority. Provide some sort of proof, please.

What I saw was a lot of users simply stopping typing, some of them dropping off due to “Ping timeout” or “No route to host”, and when laying the puzzle afterwards, minutes before NYPD makes mass arrests or uses less than palatable tactics.

Reporters generally use other means than the cellular network for their coverage of events, like microwave links etc., which, ‘lo and behold, are not affected when a cellphone base station goes down.

I’m sorry, reporters do, in fact, use cell phones. Even if they’re not using them for live reporting, they’re using them constantly for calling editors, etc.

It doesn’t.

Then that point of yours is not, in fact, a point. If it makes no difference for the video to be uploaded later rather than right that minute, then the alleged bollixing of the cell phones served no purpose for the PD.

194 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:37:30pm

re: #175 Rightwingconspirator

But they can’t haul you away to the gulag or out back to be shot.

Yes, they can. See Rumsfeld V Padilla. Padilla was only returned to civilian control after years in a miltary brig under sensory deprivation to moot an expected SCOTUS decision that would have overturned the lower court ruling allowing his unlimited detention without charges or counsel. As of now, the government can still do that and the process of appealing to the SCOTUS would have to start over from the beginning.

The law will still support you if only after the fact.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

And the city will likely pay your damages.

After you file a lawsuit. Maybe.

New York is refusing to pay medical bills for female bystanders shot by NYPD who were shooting at a mentally disturbed man in Times Square, claiming the liability is on the suspect and not them.

195 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:38:42pm

A confused cat:

Youtube Video

196 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:39:22pm

Good thing I brought my asbestos scale suit today.

197 gwangung  Aug 12, 2014 3:39:33pm

re: #194 Aunty Entity Dragon

New York is refusing to pay medical bills for female bystanders shot by NYPD who were shooting at a mentally disturbed man in Times Square, claiming the liability is on the suspect and not them.

Doesn’t that damage your martial law argument, however?

198 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:39:42pm

re: #185 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, it doesn’t. The literal meaning of ‘martial law’, is that the military assumes primacy over civilian command. That is what the words mean.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

That they’re taking their orders, in the end, from the mayor, and not from a military commander.

No. The POTUS and civilian chain of command at the federa level and often the state level (if the governor called it) retain control.

You confused martial law with a coup d’tat.

199 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:41:09pm

re: #196 thedopefishlives

Good thing I brought my asbestos scale suit today.

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

200 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:42:01pm

re: #198 Aunty Entity Dragon

No. The POTUS and civilian chain of command at the federa level and often the state level (if the governor called it) retain control.

The POTUS retains command because he is a military commander, the governor only retains it in so far as they are actually a military commander.

The real, actual, legal definition of martial law is when a military authority supersedes a civilian authority and enforces the law. This didn’t happen in Boston, at any time.

You can complain, legitimately, about the warrantless searches and other things that happened in Boston without making yourself look bad by making the false claim that martial law was declared. If you care about your argument, care about the accuracy, and stop calling it martial law.

Edit: And a coup d’etat, obviously, is when some force (not necessarily military) declares the old government invalid and that they have taken control. The differences are many, but key is that in martial law, the civilian government initiates the change to military control.

201 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:42:11pm

I need to start cooking dinner. See you later tonight possibly. :)

202 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 3:42:30pm

So I find a tweet earlier from an Anon account posting threats against about cops and I report it to Twitter. What do I get back?

Thank you for submitting your report. The Twitter Trust & Safety Team only reviews harassment reports when:

1) You are directly involved OR
2) You are legally authorized to report on behalf of a person being abused or harassed.

203 allegro  Aug 12, 2014 3:42:51pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

Use balsamic vinegar instead of red wine vinegar.

204 Floral Giraffe  Aug 12, 2014 3:42:55pm

re: #199 klys

What time are you serving? You’ve got LOTS of guests….

205 Dr Lizardo  Aug 12, 2014 3:43:01pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

Sorry. I just had to throw this out there.

Sounds good.

206 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:43:17pm

re: #202 Kragar

So I find a tweet earlier from an Anon account posting threats against about cops and I report it to Twitter. What do I get back?

Pretty much.

They’re working to protect …absolutely no one. Except for harassers, stalkers, and abusive folks.

207 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:43:54pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

It sounds so hipster-ish, but delicious.

208 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:44:09pm

re: #205 Dr Lizardo

This is my effort for healthy cooking. In general, not just this specifically.

209 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 3:44:13pm
210 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 3:44:26pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

I think I’ll bring the Chardonnay. Nice menu!

211 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 3:44:50pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

use a fish other than tilapia?

212 BeachDem  Aug 12, 2014 3:45:14pm

And Gary Legum provides the definitive description of National Review’s Kevin Williamson:

We usually avoid the work of Kevin D. Williamson at National Review, partly because every piece is overwritten tripe with a point so far outside of reality we need a wormhole to reach it, and partly because we are creeped out by Williamson, who looks like the dandified love child of Ted Bundy and a deformed penis. He is also probably the most consistent race-baiter at NR since old John Derbyshire took his white sheets to VDARE, and our blood pressure does not need more nudging towards the red line.

Kevin-williamson-goes-to-illinois-gets-yelled-at-by-black-kid-lives-to-tell-the-tale

wonkette.com

213 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:45:15pm

re: #207 thedopefishlives

It sounds so hipster-ish, but delicious.

The lemon quinoa comes out of a box. >.> The fish I will confess to trolling recipe sites which I will mash together into something resembling a dish, and the kale will likely suffer the same fate. I’m still learning in the kitchen.

214 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:45:23pm

re: #211 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

use a fish other than tilapia?

My filets are NOT for sale, thank you very much.

215 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 3:45:56pm

re: #200 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The real, actual, legal definition of martial law is when a military authority supersedes a civilian authority and enforces the law. This didn’t happen in Boston, at any time.

And again, a difference without a distinction. You get exactly the same effects with the same weapons, the same vehicles and the same extra judicial powers to enter homes and seize persons and property.

Would it make you feel better if another, nifty name were coined for it?

“almost, but not quite sorta like but maybe just a little different from real honest to God martial law, but with all the wholesome goodness you expect!”

There. That ought to do it.

216 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:46:14pm

re: #211 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

use a fish other than tilapia?

Too late, that’s bought.

My husband is just thankful I will at least work with tilapia. Of course, the man eats peppered mackerel. By itself. And then gets to sleep on the couch.

217 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:46:29pm

re: #209 wrenchwench

Fuck that:

Youtube Video

218 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:46:31pm

re: #213 klys

The lemon quinoa comes out of a box. >.> The fish I will confess to trolling recipe sites which I will mash together into something resembling a dish, and the kale will likely suffer the same fate. I’m still learning in the kitchen.

My wife is starting to enjoy cooking and experimenting in the kitchen. I’m hoping her most recent … less successful efforts haven’t dampened her spirits.

219 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 3:46:57pm

re: #213 klys

The lemon quinoa comes out of a box. >.> The fish I will confess to trolling recipe sites which I will mash together into something resembling a dish, and the kale will likely suffer the same fate. I’m still learning in the kitchen.

there are a number of good marinades for fish out there, I am partial to the baja lime one that McCormick makes (it’s dry just need to add the liquid).

220 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:47:04pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

Can I come over?

221 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:47:23pm

re: #218 thedopefishlives

My wife is starting to enjoy cooking and experimenting in the kitchen. I’m hoping her most recent … less successful efforts haven’t dampened her spirits.

I have my …less successful experiments too.

That’s why there are frozen pizzas in the freezer.

222 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 3:48:02pm

re: #216 klys

Too late, that’s bought.

My husband is just thankful I will at least work with tilapia. Of course, the man eats peppered mackerel. By itself. And then gets to sleep on the couch.

well hopefully whatever you do to it makes it good. Every time I’ve had it, it has this funky dirt taste to it. And, well, after watching the dirtiest job episode on Tilapia I just can’t eat em lol.

223 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:50:14pm

re: #215 Aunty Entity Dragon

And again, a difference without a distinction.

The difference is obviously and huge: The mayor is elected, the military commander is not.

You get exactly the same effects with the same weapons, the same vehicles and the same extra judicial powers to enter homes and seize persons and property.

You are fixiating on material and tactics when the distinction is legal. Martial law has huge effects: the military holds trials, for example. Boston is not an example of martial law.

Would it make you feel better if another, nifty name were coined for it?

If you called it something accurate and stop calling it martial law, that woudl be better for you, yes.

“almost, but not quite sorta like but maybe just a little different from real honest to God martial law, but with all the wholesome goodness you expect!”

Since it bears very little resemblance to martial law, you should probably call it something else. If you want to call it the militarization of the police, that’d be a good idea, and wouldn’t confuse the issue.

There. That ought to do it.

It was not martial law, nor did it resemble martial law, because the tactics and weapons are not what make martial law martial law. What makes martial law is that the military takes over policing from the civilian authority, something that didn’t happen, or come close to happening, in Boston.

224 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:50:30pm

re: #222 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

well hopefully whatever you do to it makes it good. Every time I’ve had it, it has this funky dirt taste to it. And, well, after watching the dirtiest job episode on Tilapia I just can’t eat em lol.

I’m just …not going to look. At all.

I normally pan-fry it after coating with corn meal mixed with Old Bay and then serve with couscous and either pico de gallo or a tomato/olive/shallot saute. But since I’m going to deal with the kale I wanted something that can just go in the oven so I’m not juggling 3 pans because that never ends well.

225 thedopefishlives  Aug 12, 2014 3:53:24pm

re: #224 klys

I’m just …not going to look. At all.

I normally pan-fry it after coating with corn meal mixed with Old Bay and then serve with couscous and either pico de gallo or a tomato/olive/shallot saute. But since I’m going to deal with the kale I wanted something that can just go in the oven so I’m not juggling 3 pans because that never ends well.

One time when my wife and I did an at-home Chopped challenge, I had 3 different dishes going at once. I was sweating profusely when I finished cooking.

226 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 12, 2014 3:54:50pm
227 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 3:55:00pm

re: #193 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

“Proof” doesn’t mean citing yourself from authority. Provide some sort of proof, please.

en.wikipedia.org
Please note that above is for GSM, it’s even less for the cell phone systems commonly in use in the US at the time.

I’m sorry, reporters do, in fact, use cell phones. Even if they’re not using them for live reporting, they’re using them constantly for calling editors, etc.

These outages were not long, they usually were in the range of 10 to 20 minutes. Also, you have to remember that this was during the week or two before mainstream media began catching onto what was going on at Zucotti, NYPD’s tactics mellowed considerably after it began getting coverage.

Then that point of yours is not, in fact, a point. If it makes no difference for the video to be uploaded later rather than right that minute, then the alleged bollixing of the cell phones served no purpose for the PD.

It makes sense in that you disrupt internal communications of protestors. In case of the mass arrest on the bridge, what was previously agreed upon was that if in doubt, follow NYPD instructions. So when comms evaporated, what happened was that many protestors followed the implicit direction of the NYPD (standing in a line across the footway that was the planned route, pointing to a ramp) and walked onto the bridge on which they later were subject to mass arrest for violation of traffic laws.

Also interesting to note… Some protestors knew the correct route and just walked straight through the police line, and filmed from above what happened to the rest, later uploading it to various video services. To my knowledge, no footage from the people on the lower bridge, subject to the mass arrest has ever been published, giving credence to claims that NYPD forced people to delete any footage they took.

The purpose was not as much as preventing footage of events to spread, rather to disrupt internal communications of protestors to cause situations which could be used as excuse for heavy-handed tactics etc.

228 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:55:09pm

re: #221 klys

I have my …less successful experiments too.

That’s why there are frozen pizzas in the freezer.

I’m usually a pretty fantastic cook (breaking arm patting self on back) and made a South American pork dish from a recipe on Epicurious - usually a source of amazement in food delightfulness - and dinner turned out to be pizza delivery that night. It was sooooooo bad.

Food experimentation is fun. Allow yourself mistakes. They happen.

Let us know how it turned out.

229 klys  Aug 12, 2014 3:56:04pm

re: #225 thedopefishlives

One time when my wife and I did an at-home Chopped challenge, I had 3 different dishes going at once. I was sweating profusely when I finished cooking.

I cooked for Thanksgiving this past year, just the two of us.

I misread the amount of flour called for in the sauce for the turkey and ended up dumping in far more than I was supposed to. Fortunately there was some extra apple juice to attempt a recovery but it was still way thick.

Then I managed to almost burn the beans.

And I dropped the turkey cutlets on the stove while we were microwaving them (since they didn’t cook evenly…)

It was kind of a disaster.

But still tasty.

See?

230 sattv4u2  Aug 12, 2014 3:56:07pm

re: #225 thedopefishlives

One time when my wife and I did an at-home Chopped challenge, I had 3 different dishes going at once. I was sweating profusely when I finished cooking.

NOTE TO SELF

Don’t ask why the dish thedopefishlives is extra salty

the answer ,,,,,, flop sweat got into the pan!!
/

231 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Aug 12, 2014 3:57:36pm

re: #224 klys

I’m just …not going to look. At all.

I normally pan-fry it after coating with corn meal mixed with Old Bay and then serve with couscous and either pico de gallo or a tomato/olive/shallot saute. But since I’m going to deal with the kale I wanted something that can just go in the oven so I’m not juggling 3 pans because that never ends well.

yeah the oven is the way to go when messing with everything else.

232 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 3:57:38pm

re: #227 Teukka

en.wikipedia.org
Please note that above is for GSM, it’s even less for the cell phone systems commonly in use in the US at the time.
.

Okay:

in dense urban areas, masts may be as close as 1/4-1/2 mile (400-800 m) apart.

20 blocks in NYC is a mile. So, your link disproves your claim.

These outages were not long, they usually were in the range of 10 to 20 minutes. Also, you have to remember that this was during the week or two before mainstream media began catching onto what was going on at Zucotti, NYPD’s tactics mellowed considerably after it began getting coverage.

So you were able to figure all this out, but no reporter was, and you can’t provide any other proof, and according to your own link, cell phone towers aren’t placed closely enough to do this.

233 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 3:58:26pm

re: #224 klys

I’m just …not going to look. At all.

I normally pan-fry it after coating with corn meal mixed with Old Bay and then serve with couscous and either pico de gallo or a tomato/olive/shallot saute. But since I’m going to deal with the kale I wanted something that can just go in the oven so I’m not juggling 3 pans because that never ends well.

I was watching food network and they kept saying kale made great chips when baked in the oven. I tried kale once…I’m not going to eat it in chips or any other form (blech), but if you like the stuff, you can likely get away from another pan on the stove.

234 sattv4u2  Aug 12, 2014 3:59:37pm

re: #229 klys

I cooked for Thanksgiving this past year, just the two of us.

I misread the amount of flour called for in the sauce for the turkey and ended up dumping in far more than I was supposed to. Fortunately there was some extra apple juice to attempt a recovery but it was still way thick.

Then I managed to almost burn the beans.

And I dropped the turkey cutlets on the stove while we were microwaving them (since they didn’t cook evenly…)

It was kind of a disaster.

But still tasty.

See?

well,,,, ummm,,, errr,,,, the loaf of bread looks tasty!!!

235 Gus  Aug 12, 2014 4:00:29pm

This is an FAA NOTAM.

236 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:04:38pm

re: #226 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Holy. Shit.

237 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 4:05:15pm

re: #199 klys

I’m thinking of doing a baked lemon garlic tilapia to serve with lemon quinoa and sauteed kale with lemon juice and maybe a touch of red wine vinegar for dinner.

Thoughts?

Before Sunday I would have had no idea what a tilapia was.

238 b.d.  Aug 12, 2014 4:09:35pm

THIS IS THE START OF THE GOVERNMENT CRACKDOWN, ROUNDUP AND TAKEOVER THAT WE’VE BEEN WARNING YOU ABOUT! LOCK AND LOAD!

——————————————

what? this is about people mad at the cops because they shot a black kid?
————————————————
RESPECT THE POLICE! THE COPS ARE THE REAL VICTIMS! THAT THUG DESERVED IT!

239 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:10:17pm

re: #237 b_sharp

Before Sunday I would have had no idea what a tilapia was.

It’s like orange roughy or Lake Superior whitefish…with less flavor. Needs seasoning big time. I prefer cod, haddock or pollock because they’re all firmer fish; more like chicken in texture than other fish. (Grouper is my all time fav but so hard to get.)

240 klys  Aug 12, 2014 4:12:52pm

re: #239 Joanne

It’s like orange roughy or Lake Superior whitefish…with less flavor. Needs seasoning big time. I prefer cod, haddock or pollock because they’re all firmer fish; more like chicken in texture than other fish. (Grouper is my all time fav but so hard to get.)

I don’t mind the texture, and I like having a really mild fish to play with the seasonings on (I am big on seasoning food).

Ugh, shudder, kale chips. I can do it raw or lightly sauteed - this is a new area of playing around with, because texture on cooked greens is something I abhor so I need to walk a fine line. But it’s healthy. So.

241 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 12, 2014 4:18:00pm

THE MOST PSYCHOTIC, SEIZURE INDUCING MEME YOU WILL SEE ALL DAY

242 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 12, 2014 4:18:40pm

Oh dear.

I just fracked up my stroganoff real, real good. I bought cream of chicken soup instead of cream of mushroom.

Anybody want dinner at my place…? I have plenty of wine to wash it down!

243 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:19:38pm

re: #240 klys

I really wanted to like kale. It’s supposed to be so good for you. But I just couldn’t.

Dogs like it though!

244 klys  Aug 12, 2014 4:20:32pm

re: #243 Joanne

I really wanted to like kale. It’s supposed to be so good for you. But I just couldn’t.

Dogs like it though!

In Key West, I had a lemon kale Caesar salad that was amazingly fantastic. I had it three nights in a row.

I don’t quite have the proportions down to make it at home yet, but I’m working on it.

245 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:21:36pm

re: #241 Pie-onist Overlord

THE MOST PSYCHOTIC, SEIZURE INDUCING MEME YOU WILL SEE ALL DAY

How about she not be a parent coz she doesn’t sound like she’d be a good one. Mmmkay?

246 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 4:22:46pm

re: #241 Pie-onist Overlord

THE MOST PSYCHOTIC, SEIZURE INDUCING MEME YOU WILL SEE ALL DAY

[Embedded content]

Statistics point to their kid being a fucked up shit head who needs to be kept away from society

247 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:23:22pm

re: #242 Aunty Entity Dragon

Oh dear.

I just fracked up my stroganoff real, real good. I bought cream of chicken soup instead of cream of mushroom.

Anybody want dinner at my place…? I have plenty of wine to wash it down!

Sounds good to me! I’m sick as a dawg…eating cream of wheat right now.

248 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 4:23:34pm

re: #232 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay:

20 blocks in NYC is a mile. So, your link disproves your claim.

Pssht. What do most of the buildings in the area consist of? Rebar, steel and concrete in various configurations. Now look at the propagation of radio waves according to frequency, you’ll notice that the higher you go in frequency, especially when you begin getting over 800-900 Mhz, reinforced concrete and steel begins to really affect radio propagation adversely.
Those 400-800m (1/4-1/2 mi) are best case figures, somewhat dated. Also, cell phone engineers do not read wikipedia articles like fundamentalists read scripture. There are micro-,nano- and pico-cells which provide cellphone coverage for very small areas. The service area for any big city consists of cells of various sizes, from big 1/2 mi cells, down to small cells which basically cover one subway station.
Sure, I could cite rationale and sources for my information, but I kinda believe that it would make most readers eyes here glaze over if I begin regurgitating how metal elements whose length are a multiple of the wavelength of a transmission adversely affect transmission and reflection. Nevertheless, it has a significant effect, for example stealth bombers and ships use that precise tactic as one of the means not to be discovered by radar.
Also, pop quiz, are city blocks in NYC symmetrical or assymetrical in shape?

So you were able to figure all this out, but no reporter was, and you can’t provide any other proof, and according to your own link, cell phone towers aren’t placed closely enough to do this.

Now, if you are a reporter, new to the events at Zucotti, having been told by NYPD that the protestors are hippies and troublemakers, and said protestors make claims that cellphone service has been tampered with, but when you do a quick check the service pages of the cellphone companies only list “Equipment malfunction” or “Planned Maintenance” as reasons for service outage.
Unless you as a reporter have a reason to seriously doubt the NYPD, you stop there, you do not go further, because in your mind, the story is obvious. However, if you would go further and look at all the information, how likely is it that equipment malfunctions or goes down for planned but unannounced maintenance at least 5 times, each time minutes before NYPD shenanigans? Not that likely, IMO.

249 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:25:17pm

re: #244 klys

In Key West, I had a lemon kale Caesar salad that was amazingly fantastic. I had it three nights in a row.

I don’t quite have the proportions down to make it at home yet, but I’m working on it.

Let me know when you figure it out. It sounds tempting. I really want to like kale. Maybe I just need a better recipe.

250 darthstar  Aug 12, 2014 4:25:40pm

If you dress cops like commandos, they’ll act like commandos.

251 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 4:27:39pm

Anyone but me want a no fly NOTAM for the media helicopters on some mornings? Seems to me they pull that GPS hover mode for a beauty shot of the sunrise right over my home way to often. Or over a car crash, and we get to listen to thud thud thud all freaking morning…

Yeah, first world problem etc. :-)

252 b.d.  Aug 12, 2014 4:29:35pm

re: #247 Joanne

Sounds good to me! I’m sick as a dawg…eating cream of wheat right now.

Looks like we’re all models of forced fasting tonight. I just had a temporary crown put in, the things I do for free nitrous oxide.

253 jaunte  Aug 12, 2014 4:29:43pm

re: #244 klys

In Key West, I had a lemon kale Caesar salad that was amazingly fantastic. I had it three nights in a row.

I had this one in Phoenix at a place called True Food; really great:
arizonafoothillsmagazine.com

254 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 4:30:18pm

‘Retrograde’ was a sock puppet, now suspended.

255 allegro  Aug 12, 2014 4:31:08pm

re: #249 Joanne

Let me know when you figure it out. It sounds tempting. I really want to like kale. Maybe I just need a better recipe.

I figure that there are too many good, healthy, wonderful foods that I enjoy to try and force myself to eat shit I really don’t like.

But I’m old and gonna die within the next decade probly anyway so YMMV.

256 Kragar  Aug 12, 2014 4:31:59pm
257 jaunte  Aug 12, 2014 4:32:01pm

Kale: disguise it with lemon, cheese and pepper.

258 Petero1818  Aug 12, 2014 4:32:33pm

It appears to me that this police department cannot be trusted either to run an actual investigation nor to peaceably maintain order. As a Canadian I don’t know what powers the state or federal government have in the US to not only take over the investigation but to take over the department entirely for the time being. But whatever they can do, they should do. This is disgusting.

259 jaunte  Aug 12, 2014 4:32:43pm

re: #256 Kragar

He just had his brain fitted and he can’t do a thing with it.

260 blueraven  Aug 12, 2014 4:33:16pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

‘Retrograde’ was a sock puppet, now suspended.

Ah yes, Aligarr! I knew he was a puppet!

261 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 12, 2014 4:34:17pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

‘Retrograde’ was a sock puppet, now suspended.

Thanks for keeping a nice place. Your code (of a fast monitor?) saved me from my own oversight above not redacting phone numbers from the FAA notice. Whoops.

262 klys  Aug 12, 2014 4:36:57pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

‘Retrograde’ was a sock puppet, now suspended.

Advocates of the written language everywhere thank you.

263 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 4:37:47pm

re: #239 Joanne

It’s like orange roughy or Lake Superior whitefish…with less flavor. Needs seasoning big time. I prefer cod, haddock or pollock because they’re all firmer fish; more like chicken in texture than other fish. (Grouper is my all time fav but so hard to get.)

I had some on Sunday.
My favourite is red snapper.

264 sattv4u2  Aug 12, 2014 4:41:21pm

re: #257 jaunte

Kale: disguise it with lemon, cheese and pepper.

Then,,, toss it all and have a nice piece of cake!!
/

265 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 4:41:56pm

re: #264 sattv4u2

Then,,, toss it all and have a nice piece of cake!!
/

Can’t beat cake.

266 freetoken  Aug 12, 2014 4:42:46pm

re: #265 b_sharp

Can’t beat cake.

Pie.

267 Charles Johnson  Aug 12, 2014 4:44:31pm
268 sattv4u2  Aug 12, 2014 4:45:06pm

re: #265 b_sharp

re: #266 freetoken

CakePie

Image: cherpumple-pie.jpg

269 TedStriker  Aug 12, 2014 4:45:30pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

‘Retrograde’ was a sock puppet, now suspended.

Why does that not surprise me?

270 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:45:52pm

re: #255 allegro

I figure that there are too many good, healthy, wonderful foods that I enjoy to try and force myself to eat shit I really don’t like.

But I’m old and gonna die within the next decade probly anyway so YMMV.

There’s days I doubt I’ll go that long.

271 freetoken  Aug 12, 2014 4:46:51pm

re: #268 sattv4u2

CakePie

Image: cherpumple-pie.jpg

Seem… sacrilegious.

272 b.d.  Aug 12, 2014 4:49:47pm

Damn, what an awful week.

Lauren Bacall
Dead at 89

Read more: tmz.com

273 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 4:50:16pm

re: #248 Teukka

Pssht. What do most of the buildings in the area consist of? Rebar, steel and concrete in various configurations. Now look at the propagation of radio waves according to frequency, you’ll notice that the higher you go in frequency, especially when you begin getting over 800-900 Mhz, reinforced concrete and steel begins to really affect radio propagation adversely.
Those 400-800m (1/4-1/2 mi) are best case figures, somewhat dated.

They aren’t presented as ‘best case’ figures, but as ‘worst case’ figures, and if they are ‘dated’, you’d expect coverage to increase, not decrease.

Sure, I could cite rationale and sources for my information, but I kinda believe that it would make most readers eyes here glaze over if I begin regurgitating how metal elements whose length are a multiple of the wavelength of a transmission adversely affect transmission and reflection. Nevertheless, it has a significant effect, for example stealth bombers and ships use that precise tactic as one of the means not to be discovered by radar.

Really all you’d have to do is cite a reputable source of some sort, not prove it from basic principles.

Now, if you are a reporter, new to the events at Zucotti, having been told by NYPD that the protestors are hippies and troublemakers, and said protestors make claims that cellphone service has been tampered with, but when you do a quick check the service pages of the cellphone companies only list “Equipment malfunction” or “Planned Maintenance” as reasons for service outage.
Unless you as a reporter have a reason to seriously doubt the NYPD, you stop there, you do not go further, because in your mind, the story is obvious. However, if you would go further and look at all the information, how likely is it that equipment malfunctions or goes down for planned but unannounced maintenance at least 5 times, each time minutes before NYPD shenanigans? Not that likely, IMO.

I’m sorry, I don’t find your claims or your claims to person authority at all credible. You haven’t backed them up except with links that actually contradict you.

I’m going to conclude that you’ll never offer any actual evidence of what you’re claiming, and stop asking you.

274 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 4:51:56pm

re: #257 jaunte

Kale: disguise it with lemon, cheese and pepper.

Kale - use it to make Portugese Kale Soup.

275 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:52:22pm

re: #258 Petero1818

I find myself being in a position I’m very rarely in…wanting the Feds to do just that. But the ineptitude shown by both these PDs is stunning.

276 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:53:26pm

re: #263 b_sharp

You had grouper? Where are you in Canuckistan? I’m in SW Ontario.

277 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:53:54pm

re: #264 sattv4u2

Then,,, toss it all and have a nice piece of cake!!
/

Me likey the way you thinkee. :-)

278 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 4:54:01pm

re: #272 b.d.

Damn, what an awful week.

Aw, nuts.

279 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 4:54:43pm

re: #272 b.d.

Damn, what an awful week.

89 years and a quick exit isn’t so bad. And what a life. She was wonderful.

280 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 4:55:24pm

re: #272 b.d.

Damn, what an awful week.

89 is a pretty darned good run before the final curtain falls.

281 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 4:56:02pm

re: #248 Teukka

Addendum:

Also, the current trend for base stations and antennas for them in urban areas is not only to locate them on the roofs of buildings, but also the sides of buildings, especially at corners of blocks.Also, in order for handover to be successful, the base station coverages, “cells” MUST overlap sufficiently to allow for seamless handover (when you use a cellphone while moving, your call will most likely be handed over between several base station sites, invisible to you).

Sorry to be on your case this hard, but you seem to be in hard denial that there have been, are, and will be, instances of law enforcement agencies which have been corrupted one way or another.
Or do I need to regurgitate the entire knowledge base I’ve amassed over the past 25 years each time I make a claim, simply to satisfy your demand for evidence?

282 Belafon  Aug 12, 2014 4:57:08pm

re: #280 Joanne

I figure if you make it past 70, anything other than getting hit by a car or shot is dying from old age.

283 bratwurst  Aug 12, 2014 4:59:00pm

Seriously:

284 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 4:59:12pm

re: #281 Teukka

Sorry to be on your case this hard, but you seem to be in hard denial that there have been, are, and will be, instances of law enforcement agencies which have been corrupted one way or another.

Me asking you to back up a specific clain about cell phone jamming is not in the least bit the same as me denying that any law enforcement agencies have been corrupted. This is just a weird, weird thing to say. Completely fucking strange.

Or do I need to regurgitate the entire knowledge base I’ve amassed over the past 25 years each time I make a claim, simply to satisfy your demand for evidence?

Just a single actual reputable source would be cool. Citing yourself isn’t a good idea.

285 palomino  Aug 12, 2014 4:59:45pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

What’s the big deal? It looks just like all the other photos we’ve seen from the Ukraine over the last 6 months.

286 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Aug 12, 2014 5:00:33pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

Buzz Aldrin’s message about Robin Williams has encouraged me to share something with the lizardoid empire.
I have been pretty depressed lately, and especially since my mother’s death. My beautiful new home, something I had worked for and dreamed of my entire life, suddenly seems like a bleak wilderness. I feel like a hermit and I am having other symptoms as well, lethargy, occasional nightmares. My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with. I still adore my children but they seem, and actually are, very far away. The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.
I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow for some routine old guy stuff, I will definitely bring it up with him.

Hang in there.

I haven’t lost my mother yet, but she’s going on 70, and I can’t imagine it.

287 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 5:00:44pm

re: #282 Belafon

I figure if you make it past 70, anything other than getting hit by a car or shot is dying from old age.

The closer you get to that number, the more you’ll push it back in your figuring.

288 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 5:01:00pm

Or forward.

289 GeneJockey  Aug 12, 2014 5:04:43pm

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

Buzz Aldrin’s message about Robin Williams has encouraged me to share something with the lizardoid empire.
I have been pretty depressed lately, and especially since my mother’s death. My beautiful new home, something I had worked for and dreamed of my entire life, suddenly seems like a bleak wilderness. I feel like a hermit and I am having other symptoms as well, lethargy, occasional nightmares. My achievements seem like some kind of fraud I have been pulling, an act I got away with. I still adore my children but they seem, and actually are, very far away. The loss of a parent is very painful and I hope this is just the natural, and temporary, fallout.
I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow for some routine old guy stuff, I will definitely bring it up with him.

One further thought - although my wife got some relief from the meds her GP prescribed, it wasn’t until she started going to an actual Psychiatrist, who titrated her meds, added a second one, and then tuned the two of them together, that she made real improvement. Any doctor can prescribe antidepressants, anxiolytics, etc, but not every doctor can do it right.

290 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Aug 12, 2014 5:06:45pm

re: #283 bratwurst

Fuck Nate Silver. He’s so revealed his inner douchebaggery with his new site. Him and Ezra Klein, and GG.

291 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 5:08:31pm

re: #290 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Fuck Nate Silver. He’s so revealed his inner douchebaggery with his new site. Him and Ezra Klein, and GG.

What’d I miss?? I haven’t read him in a long time.

292 BeachDem  Aug 12, 2014 5:10:13pm

re: #250 darthstar

If you dress cops like commandos, they’ll act like commandos.

[Embedded content]

Top—Newark, 1967. Bottom—Ferguson 2014

293 wrenchwench  Aug 12, 2014 5:12:25pm

re: #292 BeachDem

Top—Newark, 1967. Bottom—Ferguson 2014

[Embedded image]

Looks like National Guard in Newark. Now cops look like that.

294 HappyWarrior  Aug 12, 2014 5:12:55pm

Lauren Bacall passed away, RIP.

295 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Aug 12, 2014 5:14:58pm

re: #291 Joanne

What’d I miss?? I haven’t read him in a long time.

He was harboring a climate denier for a while. His new site has had several hiccups since he started it. And claiming all the tributes to Robin Williams are just “click bait” is pretty low.

296 Joanne  Aug 12, 2014 5:15:55pm

re: #295 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Thanks!

297 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 5:16:07pm

re: #279 wrenchwench

89 years and a quick exit isn’t so bad. And what a life. She was wonderful.

Next to Katharine Hepburn, Bacall was my favorite.

298 BeachDem  Aug 12, 2014 5:18:32pm

re: #272 b.d.

Damn, what an awful week.

James Garner, Robin Williams, Lauren Bacall…all so sad.

Best little scene ever.

Youtube Video

299 makeitstop  Aug 12, 2014 5:19:07pm

re: #293 wrenchwench

Looks like National Guard in Newark. Now cops look like that.

I believe that was celticdragon’s point earlier.

When cops are acting like paramilitary, is there any real difference?

300 BeachDem  Aug 12, 2014 5:22:29pm

re: #293 wrenchwench

Looks like National Guard in Newark. Now cops look like that.

Yup—but the juxtaposition is eerie.

301 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 5:23:22pm

re: #299 makeitstop

I believe that was celticdragon’s point earlier.

When cops are acting like paramilitary, is there any real difference?

Yes. Who’s in charge.

302 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 5:24:16pm

re: #276 Joanne

You had grouper? Where are you in Canuckistan? I’m in SW Ontario.

Sunny SK. The queen city.

303 b_sharp  Aug 12, 2014 5:26:27pm

re: #286 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Hang in there.

I haven’t lost my mother yet, but she’s going on 70, and I can’t imagine it.

My mom died at 59, my dad is coming on 84 and his mom lived til 92.
If my family gets by the cancer it does well.

304 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 5:42:31pm

re: #273 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

They aren’t presented as ‘best case’ figures, but as ‘worst case’ figures, and if they are ‘dated’, you’d expect coverage to increase, not decrease.

It is obvious that you do not work in the field. The first thing you learn in RF communications is that as bandwidth increases, so does S/N (Signal-to-Noise) ratio drop, in turn causing a drop in range. The higher data speeds a given mode of communication has, the shorter the effective range.
For example, for a FM radio station, 50-100kW is the norm to cover a county with sufficient signal quality. For a NBFM trunked system (used by transit, county, muni, PD, FD, EMS etc) you can easily cover the same area with 100-200W of power. Bandwidth for the broadcast station is 180kHz, bandwidth for NBFM is between 10 to 20kHz (channel spacing of 12.5kHz or 25kHz).

Really all you’d have to do is cite a reputable source of some sort, not prove it from basic principles.

What if my reputable source is a highly theoretical text which requires base knowledge in the field? I mean, are you able to understand from a theoretical text the pros and cons of pi/4-QPSK, GMSK and OFDM?
You can ask any radio amateur of tenure, any EE in the market niche of telecommunications if what I am saying is correct, and they’ll tell you that I’m spot on.
And I’m telling you, that in a city of the size and construction of the Big Apple, cellular telephone base stations rarely cover more than a block, especially for 3G/4G service. Simply because of the limited range of high-bandwidth data signals. The seamless coverage over a large area is created by base stations co-operating, handing over virtual circuits between each other and listening on each others behalf. It is from this behavior cellular telephones derive their very names.
Likewise, to be able to hand over a virtual circuit from one base station to the next, the coverage areas of both need to overlap enough for it to be done seamlessly, usually in the range of 1/3 to 1/4, but in high movement and usage areas, you can even find 1/2 overlap.

I’m sorry, I don’t find your claims or your claims to person authority at all credible. You haven’t backed them up except with links that actually contradict you.

Go to the ARRL or FCC web sites, read what is required to hold a technical license for amateur radio, the rules are pretty much the same across the world. I’ve held an amateur radio license since 1991, and the email address I’ve registered with here contains my signal (which I’d rather not have in circulation due to the behavior RWNJ’s this side of the pond and yours).
I’m formally educated in electronics and computers in one of the vocational schools in Stockholm Municipality, S:t Erik. On top of that, I have a partial education in natural sciences (Maths, Biology, Chemistry and Physics) from another school in Stockholm Muni, Bandhagen College (now defunct).
When it comes to electronics and computers, I know very well what I am talking of, and try my best to make claims which anyone who matches or exceeds my level of expertise can prove or disprove with ease. Why? Because it would be silly for me to make claims which any EE can disprove without even waking up.

I’m going to conclude that you’ll never offer any actual evidence of what you’re claiming, and stop asking you.

I’m getting the feeling similar to the one I get when dealing with climate skepdicks, namely a standard of evidence so high and specific that it is near impossible to live up to, the difference being that in this case, you don’t seem to be able to fathom that police departments can in some instances be rotten to the core and stop at nothing to defend their own.

305 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 5:46:41pm

re: #284 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Me asking you to back up a specific clain about cell phone jamming is not in the least bit the same as me denying that any law enforcement agencies have been corrupted. This is just a weird, weird thing to say. Completely fucking strange.

I’ve never made a claim of cellphone jamming. I’ve made claims that cell phone base stations have conspicuously gone out of service minutes before police action, repeatedly, and from information from those affected, the most likely candidate is that the base stations have been switched off for timespans on the order of 10 to 20 minutes.

Just a single actual reputable source would be cool. Citing yourself isn’t a good idea.

I’m citing personal experience. But I’ll keep that in mind, personal experience does not count with Obdicut.

306 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 5:51:38pm

re: #304 Teukka

It is obvious that you do not work in the field. The first thing you learn in RF communications is that as bandwidth increases, so does S/N (Signal-to-Noise) ratio drop, in turn causing a drop in range. The higher data speeds a given mode of communication has, the shorter the effective range.

That’s not what I meant, though.

What if my reputable source is a highly theoretical text which requires base knowledge in the field? I mean, are you able to understand from a theoretical text the pros and cons of pi/4-QPSK, GMSK and OFDM?

Just find some source that says “in NYC cell phone towers are placed about one per block.”

You know, the claim you made.

I’m getting the feeling similar to the one I get when dealing with climate skepdicks, namely a standard of evidence so high and specific that it is near impossible to live up to, the difference being that in this case, you don’t seem to be able to fathom that police departments can in some instances be rotten to the core and stop at nothing to defend their own.

Except I probably think the NYPD is more corrupt than you do, and I’m asking you to provide proof bout a specific claim.

Calm the fuck down.

307 alpuz  Aug 12, 2014 5:52:58pm

re: #219 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Didn’t scroll down so this may have been covered. Marinate fish for no longer than an hour. Even less, is what some chefs say. Citrus(lime, orange, and my favorite pineapple & mango), mixed with the herbs and spices of your sides always worked for me. I love cilantro, lime, garlic, onion and poblanos.

Way OT, but Bob Uecker rules.

308 alpuz  Aug 12, 2014 5:55:28pm

re: #257 jaunte

Kale chips are good.

309 alpuz  Aug 12, 2014 5:56:07pm

Damn. There’s a whole new thread. Ok.

310 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 6:08:19pm

re: #306 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That’s not what I meant, though.

Just find some source that says “in NYC cell phone towers are placed about on per block.”

You know, the claim you made.

I base my educated guess on how it looks here Stockholm, directional antennas on most roofs, and in high usage and phone density areas, panels on walls (like the picture I linked to) roughly every 100-200 m or so. For each damn operator. We have 6 or 7 of those in town.
No reason why it should be much different for a city like NYC.
As to the actual location and densities of cellular phone base stations, that’s probably a trade secret of the mobile service providers, though I think checking with the FCC or the City of New York could give an idea (each base station antenna location needs a separate permit from FCC and the city) as to the number and location of cells.

Except I probably think the NYPD is more corrupt than you do, and I’m asking you to provide proof bout a specific claim.

Calm the fuck down.

But what if the proof of the specific claims requires a lot of knowledge to understand, such as propagation of radiowaves, the number circuits per specific radio channel, knowing the intricate details of the air interface of the network in question? I could drown you in links which would leave you with your eyes glazed over but leave you none the wiser.
Or I can make a claim which I know that any person who matches or exceeds my level of knowledge can confirm with ease. Which is what I chose.

311 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 6:21:52pm

re: #310 Teukka

But what if the proof of the specific claims requires a lot of knowledge to understand, such as propagation of radiowaves, the number circuits per specific radio channel, knowing the intricate details of the air interface of the network in question?

It doesn’t.

Or I can make a claim which I know that any person who matches or exceeds my level of knowledge can confirm with ease. Which is what I chose.

I have no idea if your authority is real or not. Climate skeptics, for example, love to talk about their personal credentials. Which is why it’s silly to accept personal authority on the internet.

312 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 6:29:05pm

re: #311 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It doesn’t.

Actually, it does. Propagation, number of circuits per channel, # of users for a given base station coverage area, number of frequencies useable by a given base station is what dictates the density of cellular phone base stations in a given area.

I have no idea if your authority is real or not. Climate skeptics, for example, love to talk about their personal credentials. Which is why it’s silly to accept personal authority on the internet.

Which begs the question, what reason do you have to distrust me despite me pointing out that anyone with knowledge which matches or exceeds mine can easily confirm what I’ve said?

313 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 6:51:18pm

re: #312 Teukka

Actually, it does. Propagation, number of circuits per channel, # of users for a given base station coverage area, number of frequencies useable by a given base station is what dictates the density of cellular phone base stations in a given area.

All I want is a quote that says in NYC they’re at a density of one per block. Or anything close to that. The rest of that shit doesn’t matter. You provided a link where the claim was that the towers were every five blocks or so in NYC.

Which begs the question, what reason do you have to distrust me despite me pointing out that anyone with knowledge which matches or exceeds mine can easily confirm what I’ve said?

I distrust anyone claiming abstruse knowledge automatically. As should you.

314 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 7:17:12pm

re: #313 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Here’s a link:

urbanomnibus.net

Nowhere close to one per block in 2011. Nowhere close.

315 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 7:18:23pm

re: #313 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

All I want is a quote that says in NYC they’re at a density of one per block. Or anything close to that. The rest of that shit doesn’t matter. You provided a link where the claim was that the towers were every five blocks or so in NYC.

No, it said that the average range of a base station masts in an urban area is 1/4-1/2 mi. Average does not mean absolute rule. Also, each base station coverage has to overlap with other base stations coverage to be able to do handover between base stations seamlessly, without the end user noticing.
And the rest of the “shit” as you put it does matter, because it dictates how far you can expect the signal to propagate to and from a cellphone. Which varies widely. Which is why all cell phone operators augment their masts with base stations and antennas on the sides of buildings to provide coverage.
Radio signals don’t go through everything, especially at cell phone frequencies. The rebar in a building can effectively create a faraday cage for radio signals, as can steel beams and some solar protection films for windows (especially the reflective kind which almost always are metallized), further reducing the distance you can go from the mast. If you are inside such a building, or have such a building between you and the base station, communication will be broken.
Again, FACTS which any EE in the field can confirm.

I distrust anyone claiming abstruse knowledge automatically. As should you.

So by your own account, one should automatically deny climate change?

316 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 7:21:48pm

re: #315 Teukka

No, it said that the average range of a base station masts in an urban area is 1/4-1/2 mi.

No, it didn’t. This is what it said:

in dense urban areas, masts may be as close as 1/4-1/2 mile (400-800 m) apart.

So by your own account, one should automatically deny climate change?

Climate change is dead easy to prove: Link to NOAA. Link to NASA. Done.
Can you link to any site that says that cell base station proliferation is what you claim it is? If you can, do so. But the above link makes me think your claim is simply untrue.

317 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 7:31:36pm

re: #314 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Here’s a link:

urbanomnibus.net

Nowhere close to one per block in 2011. Nowhere close.

SE corner of Manhattan on said map, base station density. Color indicates (assuming linear scale between 380 and 160 m2) 270 m2 coverage per base station, or a square with 16 m sides.
Image caption says average density of antennas in Manhattan is one for every 218 square meters, or a square with ~15 meter sides.

How big was a NYC block again?

318 abolitionist  Aug 12, 2014 7:31:40pm

re: #314 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Here’s a link:

urbanomnibus.net

Nowhere close to one per block in 2011. Nowhere close.

From that same link:

The FCC, in recent years, has authorized a three-fold increase in the commercial spectrum, which includes the recent auction of 700MHz frequencies previously in use by analog television. However, given that a 35-fold increase in wireless traffic is expected over the next five years, mobile providers constantly add antennas to their networks. While a single base station might have a range measured in miles in an unobstructed environment, in an urban setting installations are often separated by only a few hundred feet.

319 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 7:33:09pm

re: #314 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Here’s a link:

urbanomnibus.net

Nowhere close to one per block in 2011. Nowhere close.

Also, keep in mind the antennas on each mast rarely are omnidirectional, as illustrated on the general cell structrure map on the same page.

320 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 7:35:31pm

re: #317 Teukka

Thank you. I had missed that. That’s approximately 1 unit per square block in manhattan, so you were right, and I was wrong.

Hopefully, in the future, instead of rattling on about Faraday cages and your special knowledge, you can just find an authoritative link like I finally did, and provide it. It would save some time.

Now, any luck on finding anyone else making the same claim as you about the cell phones all being interfered with at the same time, prior to heavy media presence in Zucotti park?

321 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 7:45:55pm

re: #320 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Thank you. I had missed that. That’s approximately 1 unit per square block in manhattan, so you were right, and I was wrong.

Hopefully, in the future, instead of rattling on about Faraday cages and your special knowledge, you can just find an authoritative link like I finally did, and provide it. It would save some time.

Actually, I did not expect as good an information source as you provided to be in existence, mobile operators tend to be very secretive about locations and capacities of their gear, partly to maintain competetive edge, partly to avoid spurious EM “allergy” claims, and in some cases because the information is classified under the aegis of national security (like, for instance the true capacity of mobile networking around NYSE).

Now, any luck on finding anyone else making the same claim as you about the cell phones all being interfered with at the same time, prior to heavy media presence in Zucotti park?

Alas, no, Occupy* has morphed by now, I only remember the frustration in the chat channels when swaths of people began disconnecting with “PING TIMEOUT” and “NO ROUTE TO HOST” and other messages indicating network infrastructure going offline, always followed by the news of NYPD shenanigans 10, 20 minutes later when they were able to get back online (people led onto the bridge and mass arrested, officer Bologna and his big OC bottle, observer run over by PD bike, etc.).
It got to the level where us moderators groaned collectively and asked out loud “wtf now?” and bracing for bad news whenever swaths of people began dropping off.

Edit:
Also, because there was a falling out of sorts between different factions, the information is likely to be spread out all over the internet by now.
Nevertheless, if I was to do it all over again, I would not under any circumstances rely on cellphones for protest comms which are likely to incur the shenanigans of NYPD, either on-site security and march organization, nor for internal live media.
And I would have certain precautions in place for NORDO situations.

322 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 12, 2014 7:49:13pm

re: #321 Teukka

Actually, I did not expect as good an information source as you provided to be in existence, mobile operators tend to be very secretive about locations and capacities of their gear, partly to maintain competetive edge, partly to avoid spurious EM “allergy” claims, and in some cases because the information is classified under the aegis of national security (like, for instance the true capacity of mobile networking around NYSE).

Next time, look.

Alas, no, Occupy* has morphed by now, I only remember the frustration in the chat channels when swaths of people began disconnecting with “PING TIMEOUT” and “NO ROUTE TO HOST” and other messages indicating network infrastructure going offline, always followed by the news of NYPD shenanigans 10, 20 minutes later when they were able to get back online (people led onto the bridge and mass arrested, officer Bologna and his big OC bottle, observer run over by PD bike, etc.).
It got to the level where us moderators groaned collectively and asked out loud “wtf now?” and bracing for bad news whenever swaths of people began dropping off.

But there was already significant media presence by then.

323 Teukka  Aug 12, 2014 7:55:33pm

re: #322 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Next time, look.

Will do.

But there was already significant media presence by then.

I don’t know why the cellphone shenanigans didn’t catch more attention, but suspect it is that media had their opinion colored by the opinions of the NYPD and the fact that the issues experienced seemed plausible enough with regard to excuses from the mobile operators.
Nevertheless, we learned the hard way what sudden loss of comms meant in terms of NYPD attention. Won’t make that mistake again in a hurry.

324 lostlakehiker  Aug 13, 2014 10:09:31pm

I’ve witnessed police forces running amok, in Minneapolis, 1974. People were clubbed coming out of classes. Bones were broken, eyes put out. Tear gas all over the place. Badges tucked under socks etc.

This Ferguson police department has not, not yet anyhow, outright gone on its own riot. So far, they’ve shown that they have this and that kind of firepower, but they’ve not as a force, as a collective, “run amok”.

Not like that, anyhow. Careful language is, or ought to be, the order of the day in tense situations.


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