Keystone XL Pipeline Bill Stalls in Senate

Landrieu is political loser of the week
Politics • Views: 35,271

Our government news of the day is a shocking act of Democratic obstructionism in the Senate, where the bill to authorize construction of the Keystone XL pipeline was narrowly defeated today.

WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats on Tuesday defeated a bill, 59 to 41, that would have approved the construction of the Keystone XL oil pipeline, rebuffing a Democratic colleague, Senator Mary L. Landrieu of Louisiana, who had hoped to muscle the legislation through in advance of her uphill runoff election fight back home.

Forty Democrats and Angus King, independent of Maine, voted against the bill, with just 14 Democrats joining all 45 Republicans in support of the oil pipeline.

The battle over approving the pipeline, which will carry petroleum from the oil sands of Canada to the Gulf Coast of Texas, ultimately became a proxy war for the Louisiana Senate seat, where Ms. Landrieu and Representative Bill Cassidy, a Republican, are locked in fight for votes in their oil-rich state ahead of a Dec. 6 runoff election.

The bill is sure to come up again in the new Senate, but it would still be unlikely to get the 67 votes needed to override a Presidential veto. The real loser in this vote is Mary Landrieu, who fought hard to get Democrats to support it and lost — and now may lose her Senate seat.

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501 comments
1 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 4:42:39pm
The real loser in this vote is Mary Landrieu, who fought hard to get Democrats to support it and lost — and now may lose her Senate seat.

Good riddance.

2 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 4:42:50pm

Even if it had passed, I doubt it would’ve helped her much at all.

3 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 4:45:46pm

But but but…it was filibustered!!!11!!

4 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 4:45:59pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Good riddance.

She wanted fame and got infamy instead.

5 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 4:46:10pm
6 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 4:46:52pm

re: #3 Backwoods_Sleuth

But but but…it was filibustered!!!11!!

[Embedded content]

Repubs filibuster Dem bill: “Senate rejects bill.”

Dems filibuster Repub bill: “DEMOCRATS FILIBUSTERED IT!!!”

7 Lidane  Nov 18, 2014 4:47:20pm

Keystone XL is stupid. We get zero benefit from it. It doesn’t create jobs, it poisons water supplies, ruins the environment, and none of that oil ends up here anyway.

The longer it keeps going down in flames the better.

8 Skip Intro  Nov 18, 2014 4:47:54pm
The bill is sure to come up again in the new Senate, but it would still be unlikely to get the 67 votes needed to override a Presidential veto.

I await the legions of GOP hacks who will soon be claiming that requiring 67 votes “is just your opinion”.

9 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 4:48:56pm

re: #7 Lidane

Keystone XL is stupid. We get zero benefit from it. It doesn’t create jobs, it poisons water supplies, ruins the environment, and none of that oil ends up here anyway.

The longer it keeps going down in flames the better.

Like I posted downstairs, TransCanada’s getting desperate. The Southern Leg (Keystone) has failed to move again and again in Congress, while the Western Leg alternative through British Columbia is so caught up in the courts that work on it might not begin before 2018. So now they’re trying to get the government up there to agree to an Eastern Leg to the sea instead.

10 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 4:51:09pm

re: #8 Skip Intro

I await the legions of GOP hacks who will soon be claiming that requiring 67 votes “is just your opinion”.

It’s wrong that every bill requires 60 votes to pass!!!

11 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 18, 2014 4:53:31pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Good riddance.

This.

12 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 18, 2014 4:54:48pm

BUT JRRBS!!!!!1!!!
Wonderful opportunities for migrants.
HURR HURR UR JUST LAZY, Y U NOT WANT TO MOVE AWAY FROM UR FAMILY FOR 6 MONTHS-A YEAR LIVE IN A TENT & SEND MONEY BACK HOME LIKE THOSE MEXICANS ALL DO!!!11!!!!!!

13 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 4:56:31pm

re: #12 Vicious Piebola

BUT JRRBS!!!!!1!!!
Wonderful opportunities for migrants.
HURR HURR UR JUST LAZY, Y U NOT WANT TO MOVE AWAY FROM UR FAMILY FOR 6 MONTHS-A YEAR LIVE IN A TENT & SEND MONEY BACK HOME LIKE THOSE MEXICANS ALL DO!!!11!!!!!!

42,000 jobs…if you count everybody down to the strippers who will be hired to entertain the workers for 6 months while the pipeline’s going up.

14 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 5:02:19pm

The Republicans sure did like that requirement for a super majority on nearly any damned thing when they were the Senate’s minority party. Watch the transformation as they rediscover the beauty of the simple majority, including using it for cloture, early this Spring.

15 lawhawk  Nov 18, 2014 5:03:15pm

re: #12 Vicious Piebola

Temporary jobs during construction, which is essentially a moving work gang. Once it’s up and running, a skeleton crew is all that is needed to maintain.

A handful of people could work hundreds of mile of line.

16 Skip Intro  Nov 18, 2014 5:03:18pm

Once again, Charles PIerce cuts through the crap to get to the real point of the Keystone pipeline.

The Keystone XL pipeline must be built because it is the Keystone XL pipeline. The Keystone XL pipeline must be built only so that the people who oppose it are defeated. The Keystone XL pipeline must be built because it is no longer a construction project, it is an article of the conservative faith.

esquire.com

17 bill d  Nov 18, 2014 5:04:07pm

Good!

Prediction - The republicans suddenly hate the 60 cloture vote threshold

UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE! UP OR DOWN VOTE!

18 Jenner7  Nov 18, 2014 5:06:02pm

hehe

19 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 5:07:11pm

Well, the Rs have already started…

Senate Republicans block NSA reform legislation; bill fails to clear 60-vote threshold to move forward - @nationaljournal
read more on nationaljournal.com

20 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 18, 2014 5:07:48pm

First Haaretz article not blocked by the paywall
HURR HURR MAGICAL BALANCE FAIRY!!!!!1!!!!

21 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 18, 2014 5:11:04pm
22 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:11:28pm

Sorry Senator Warren.

23 Jenner7  Nov 18, 2014 5:12:13pm

OT:

24 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 5:14:11pm

re: #22 #FergusonFireside

[Embedded content]

Sorry Senator Warren.

While I appreciate their cause, it didn’t sound much like “singing” to me.

I understand their beef against Michael Bennet much better.

25 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 5:16:24pm

re: #23 Jenner7

OT:

[Embedded content]

Think about that for a second. If this were a case involving a white teen and black cop, and a black mayor was asking the state government to allow them 400 National Guard soldiers to serve as law enforcement in the wake of the grand jury’s announcement, would not every wingnut from here to Azerbaijan be losing their shit?

26 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 5:16:46pm

Landrieu doesn’t really have a chance of winning this time. She didn’t get 50% against three Republicans in the November election; she’ll only be facing one in January. And if there’s one thing worse than Democratic turnout in a midterm, it’s Democratic turnout in a runoff on a midterm.

27 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:17:33pm

@MsPackyetti is the moderator of my new nic.

28 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:17:56pm

And she is good.

29 Snarknado!  Nov 18, 2014 5:18:52pm

re: #20 Vicious Piebola

First Haaretz article not blocked by the paywall
HURR HURR MAGICAL BALANCE FAIRY!!!!!1!!!!

[Embedded content]

I don’t think so. The author specifically states that there’s no moral equivalency. In fact, I see the same tone as Charles a while back, finding it harder and harder to defend some of Israel’s actions, while continuing to defend the State overall. If this is rawer, it’s because this is an Israeli talking about home, and seeing less and less reason to hope for any end to the troubles.

30 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 5:19:54pm

re: #16 Skip Intro

Once again, Charles PIerce cuts through the crap to get to the real point of the Keystone pipeline.

esquire.com

And if it loses money Congress will figure out a way to subsidize it for the same reasons mentioned by Pierce. If it creates an environmental disaster the Keystone will declare bankruptcy, reconstitute itself as Keestone and we’ll get stuck with the bill for cleanup while Keestone continues to receive the aforementioned subsidies.

31 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 5:20:23pm

re: #26 Belafon

Landrieu doesn’t really have a chance of winning this time. She didn’t get 50% against three Republicans in the November election; she’ll only be facing one in January. And if there’s one thing worse than Democratic turnout in a midterm, it’s Democratic turnout in a runoff on a midterm.

She’s a dead person walking, politically. The Democratic party leadership needs to stop chasing the unicorn of a (D) senate seat from LA and get to work on what the party message will be going forward.

32 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 5:22:41pm

re: #30 Higgs Boson’s Mate

And if it loses money Congress will figure out a way to subsidize it for the same reasons mentioned by Pierce. If it creates an environmental disaster the Keystone will declare bankruptcy, reconstitute itself as Keestone and we’ll get stuck with the bill for cleanup while Keestone continues to receive the aforementioned subsidies.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses, as usual for these jokers. Of course, one will never get a GOPer to admit that this makes their plutocrat heroes at least 50% communist.

33 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 5:24:10pm

re: #21 Vicious Piebola

[Embedded content]

Not much is known about AN until he was appointed to the NJ Superior Court in 1987 (serving 8 yrs before going into private practice). So, it would be interesting to know what he did for the approximately 12 yrs from the time he graduated from law school.

Such a mystery about someone who loves the limelight and is an unmitigated opportunist.

34 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:24:29pm

re: #31 EPR-radar

She’s a dead person walking, politically. The Democratic party leadership needs to stop chasing the unicorn of a (D) senate seat from LA and get to work on what the party message will be going forward.

It just showed anyone who pays attention that staying in power is more important than, shit, anything.

35 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 5:25:53pm

re: #31 EPR-radar

She’s a dead person walking, politically. The Democratic party leadership needs to stop chasing the unicorn of a (D) senate seat from LA and get to work on what the party message will be going forward.

For safety’s sake they may want to stick with “The name of our party doesn’t begin with the letter ‘r’.”

36 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 5:27:37pm

re: #35 Higgs Boson’s Mate

For safety’s sake they may want to stick with “The name of our party doesn’t begin with the letter ‘r’.”

I’m not comfortable with the winning chances of that message in 2016.

37 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 5:28:18pm
38 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 5:29:01pm

re: #37 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

Good gravy.

39 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 5:32:01pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

42,000 jobs…if you count everybody down to the strippers who will be hired to entertain the workers for 6 months while the pipeline’s going up.

and we see how well that worked out in Alaska…

40 RealityBasedEbola  Nov 18, 2014 5:32:55pm

re: #37 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

No thank you.

RBS

41 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 5:34:32pm

re: #15 lawhawk

Temporary jobs during construction, which is essentially a moving work gang. Once it’s up and running, a skeleton crew is all that is needed to maintain.

A handful of people could work hundreds of mile of line.

And any regular maintenance be damned.
We’ve seen this movie already.

42 Justanotherhuman  Nov 18, 2014 5:34:41pm

Keep calm and carry on, Lizards! Esp if you live in the above area.

Later. : )

43 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 5:38:25pm

My state’s senators split. Udall nay, Bennet yay.

When the new congress gets seated 3 January I have a bad feeling our Democratic members will be pushed more to the right now that the Rednecks hold both houses.

44 RealityBasedEbola  Nov 18, 2014 5:38:46pm

And for your viewing pleasure… A GoPro camera and a squirrel that decides to run off with it. Cute.

Youtube Video

Enjoy….

45 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 5:43:05pm

re: #22 #FergusonFireside

[Embedded content]

Sorry Senator Warren.

And she was supposed to do what?

46 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:44:29pm

re: #44 RealityBasedEbola

And for your viewing pleasure… A GoPro camera and a squirrel that decides to run off with it. Cute.

[Embedded content]

Video

Enjoy….

Its not food!!!

47 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 5:45:10pm

re: #36 EPR-radar

I’m not comfortable with the winning chances of that message in 2016.

After seeing our candidates run away from Obama and the ACA in the last election, the Democratic silence on Ferguson, Obama’s waiting until after the mid terms to do what he can about immigration, and ten Democratic Senators voting for Keystone XL, I was trying to find something that our party’s politicians might have a chance to reliably uphold.

48 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:45:11pm

re: #45 Backwoods_Sleuth

And she was supposed to do what?

Nothing, just sympathetic to someone trying to keep order.

49 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 5:47:31pm

re: #43 teleskiguy

My state’s senators split. Udall nay, Bennet yay.

When the new congress gets seated 3 January I have a bad feeling our Democratic members will be pushed more to the right now that the Rednecks hold both houses.

That’s why the Democrats really need to hammer out what they stand for as a party. Individual acts of appeasement or compromise by (D) politicians leave the party all over the map in terms of what it stands for. In contrast, the GOP has much greater focus.

IMO, the biggest single problem is that the Democrats are deeply compromised on economic issues because of their dependence on big donors and corporate interests.

50 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 5:49:17pm

re: #48 #FergusonFireside

Nothing, just sympathetic to someone trying to keep order.

ah, yes. That was my reaction.

51 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 5:49:56pm

re: #47 Higgs Boson’s Mate

After seeing our candidates run away from Obama and the ACA in the last election, the Democratic silence on Ferguson, Obama’s waiting until after the mid terms to do what he can about immigration, and ten Democratic Senators voting for Keystone XL, I was trying to find something that our party’s politicians might have a chance to reliably uphold.

The only other plank of the platform that all (D)s will sign up for: “I like being in office, so please elect me”

52 Timothy Watson  Nov 18, 2014 5:51:48pm

re: #7 Lidane

Keystone XL is stupid. We get zero benefit from it. It doesn’t create jobs, it poisons water supplies, ruins the environment, and none of that oil ends up here anyway.

The longer it keeps going down in flames the better.

Don’t forget the large-scale theft (eminent domain) of people’s land.

53 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 5:52:37pm

re: #47 Higgs Boson’s Mate

These lame duck votes ala 2010 are especially lame.

54 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 5:52:54pm

This is an amazing video about Ferguson - Stop motion art makes it even better. Please watch.

fusion.net

55 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 5:56:54pm

re: #52 Timothy Watson

Don’t forget the large-scale theft (eminent domain) of people’s land.

Yes, just wait until the Native Americans, using guns, hold off the private corporation like the Bundy Ranchers did with the federal government…

56 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 5:57:56pm

re: #53 Viscous Obama

These lame duck votes ala 2010 are especially lame.

2010 was then the Dems began laming themselves. Pelosi’s delaying the vote on the Bush tax cuts until after that year’s mid-terms was a profile in courage.

57 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:01:34pm
58 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 6:05:27pm

re: #57 Kragar

[Embedded content]

What the hell…

59 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:06:58pm

re: #58 Varek Raith

What the hell…

This is why I never let my kids buy that shit.

60 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 6:07:38pm

re: #47 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Democrats are always going to be in a fun position. Take these stats from this salon article (blaming blacks exclusively means believing that they cause their own problems due to things like laziness):

In the white South, 42.4 percent blame blacks exclusively, compared to just 18.8 percent who blame discrimination, and 38.8 who blame both. That’s a lopsided 69/31 split between the two exclusive positions. Outside the white South, 27.7 percent blame blacks exclusively, 34.4 percent blame discrimination, and 37.9 percent blame both, a much narrower 45/55 split between the exclusive positions.

White Republicans outside the South rate about like Southern white Democrats, and Southern Republicans are worse.

So, if you spend all your time looking at polls and how people feel, I wouldn’t be surprised if your response is “I don’t want to talk about it.”

And before anyone talk about blowing off Southern Democrats, take a look at the numbers for Democrats outside the South. They’re still not great. There are a lot of Democrats that look at blacks the same way Republicans do.

I’m generally optimistic, but I worry that this country is going to fuck everything up again. And it would be really easy. So many whites buy into the idea that minorities are causing their problems. And we’ve seen the results of that with the recent voting laws. It won’t take much, especially with the Roberts court, to end protections for minorities.

61 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:07:47pm

Definite 24 hour mode, grain of salt, wait and see but…

62 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 6:09:38pm
63 Romantic Heretic  Nov 18, 2014 6:10:24pm

re: #20 Vicious Piebola

First Haaretz article not blocked by the paywall
HURR HURR MAGICAL BALANCE FAIRY!!!!!1!!!!

[Embedded content]

Doesn’t he understand? When we kill them it’s war but if they kill us it’s terrorism.

Completely different things.

64 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:12:56pm

Ryan J. Reilly is in the Jennings MO courthouse. Another report of the modern Jim Crow.

You cannot mail in a payment less than 100.00.

65 Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 18, 2014 6:13:44pm

re: #54 #FergusonFireside

This is an amazing video about Ferguson - Stop motion art makes it even better. Please watch.

fusion.net

So that’s what Molly Crabapple was tweeting about the other night… Apparently that entire video was done & shot in one night, start to finish, with no breaks.

66 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:14:02pm

re: #61 Kragar

Definite 24 hour mode, grain of salt, wait and see but…

[Embedded content]

Question: Could someone pull his wiped social media? Is that even possible?

67 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 18, 2014 6:14:24pm

re: #55 Backwoods_Sleuth

Yes, just wait until the Native Americans, using guns, hold off the private corporation like the Bundy Ranchers did with the federal government…

They’d come down so hard as to make Wounded Knee look like a fucking picnic. Even white ranchers would get their asses handed to them for trying to slow down big oil once the fix is in.

68 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:15:18pm

In what society are you not ALLOWED to mail in a payment if it’s less than X.

What the fuck. Our justice department S U C K S.

69 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:16:03pm

re: #66 #FergusonFireside

Question: Could someone pull his wiped social media? Is that even possible?

Could be they found links in someone else’s social media.

70 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 6:17:14pm

re: #68 #FergusonFireside

They either have to take time off from a job that probably isn’t going to pay them while they are at court, or miss the meeting. Eventually the fine will be over $100, and the city wins.

71 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 18, 2014 6:17:25pm

re: #66 #FergusonFireside

Question: Could someone pull his wiped social media? Is that even possible?

Most places that say they have “deleted” something have merely hidden it from public view. Nothing is ever really gone. If Anon actually hacked the right server, they might find something interesting. My experience with Anon, though, is such that I expect what they’ve found to be very similar to the Bush/ANG memos of CBS infamy.

72 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:17:37pm

We cannot even imagine this.

73 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:19:05pm

re: #68 #FergusonFireside

In what society are you not ALLOWED to mail in a payment if it’s less than X.

What the fuck. Our justice department S U C K S.

Hell, last time I got a ticket, I never had any interaction with the courts. They mailed me my options, I paid the fine online and enrolled in traffic school to keep my insurance down. The school reported back to the court and all I lost was a Saturday.

74 Teukka  Nov 18, 2014 6:19:36pm

Off-topic, but this happened over the Urals on the 14th.
Youtube Video
I know, the source, but… rt.com

Caught it in the local press here in Sweden.

75 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:20:36pm

re: #73 Kragar

Hell, last time I got a ticket, I never had any interaction with the courts. They mailed me my options, I paid the fine online and enrolled in traffic school to keep my insurance down. The school reported back to the court and all I lost was a Saturday.

It’s a racket. Wonder why the FBI isn’t on it?

76 jaunte  Nov 18, 2014 6:23:28pm
77 Charles Johnson  Nov 18, 2014 6:23:47pm
78 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 6:30:12pm

Here is what i don’t understand. The Esquire article Skip cites above says the right answer is not ever use that energy. Ummm, okay exactly what oil or gas if any are we supposed to use? None? Saudi? North sea? Alaskan? No wait that comes in a pipe. Pretend we have a replacement in place despite the obvious fact we don’t?

Won’t we need & use the energy regardless of the politics? Or just burn the same oil via trucks or trains? “We” being the global energy consumption. Not just the US, it’s a global commodity anyway.

Seems to me all the politics is short term but energy needs are eternal.

79 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 6:30:19pm

Hey, does anyone think Reid and Pelosi are still going to be the congressional leaders when Democrats contest the next election? If recent history is anything to go by, we should expect a shakeup soon.

I haven’t seen much coverage about Ben Ray Luján being nominated as the DNCC’s next leader, Steve Israel has been moved to a kind-of-official glorified talking point spokesman for the House Democrats.

80 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:30:24pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Pfaw or however its said.

81 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:31:31pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Wait, that’s old. What’s it from?

82 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:32:01pm

re: #81 #FergusonFireside

Wait, that’s old. What’s it from?

Hitchhiker’s Guide

83 Charles Johnson  Nov 18, 2014 6:35:29pm

re: #82 Kragar

Hitchhiker’s Guide

The original Infocom game, Atari version.

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 18, 2014 6:37:04pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The original Infocom game, Atari version.

Kewl. 8-bit or ST? I had a later version, sans pin & stuff, on my Amiga.

85 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:37:09pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The original Infocom game, Atari version.

Nice

86 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:37:28pm

I had the text based one

87 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:37:42pm
88 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 6:37:53pm

re: #43 teleskiguy

My state’s senators split. Udall nay, Bennet yay.

When the new congress gets seated 3 January I have a bad feeling our Democratic members will be pushed more to the right now that the Rednecks hold both houses.

I don’t appreciate being called a ‘redneck’. I don’t speak about Democrats in such disrespectful terms, kindly remain civil.

89 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:38:22pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

In the end, it’s all just tripe…
90 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:38:53pm
91 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 6:39:16pm

re: #89 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Hey! Did your dog win it all? Did I miss the last vote? Update por favor.

92 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 6:41:22pm

re: #87 #FergusonFireside

[Embedded content]

Ah the 2000 Year Old Man web design that conservatives clamor for

93 Jenner7  Nov 18, 2014 6:42:37pm

Maddow’s show tonight is pretty good…

94 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 6:43:26pm

re: #68 #FergusonFireside

In what society are you not ALLOWED to mail in a payment if it’s less than X.

What the fuck. Our justice department S U C K S.

You read Radley Balko’s expose’ about the St. Louis metro area, I presume? Traffic tickets are a racket there, pure and simple.

As for why the Justice Department does not intervene, frankly its both a time, staffing and funding issue, and a Federalism issue. The Civil Rights division doesn’t want to get involved in a big sprawling case that they might not win.

95 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:44:08pm

re: #78 Indy GOP Refugee

Just off the top of my pointy head, I would say we don’t need oil for making most plastics anymore (cornstarch plastics are great for short-term plastic needs and moving to that would relieve a large part of our conspicuous waste problem). Nor do we need it anymore for generating electricity. We should be pushing more for alternative energy for transportation.
Really, the global oil well is not bottomless, no matter what the extreme bible-thumpers believe.

96 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 6:44:33pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

I don’t appreciate being called a ‘redneck’. I don;’t speak about Democrats in such disrespectful terms, kindly remain civil.

It’s kind of hard to remain civil when Republicans have been comparing Obama to Hitler on the regular, regularly accuse its political adversaries of treason on the regular, and the fact that a huge number of congresscritters have wildly atavistic views of the world that defy logic and reason.

If the distinction must be made Dark_Falcon, I wasn’t calling you a redneck, I know you’re not. I guess you could call it my perception of a political party that wants to take society back a century.

Apologies nonetheless if I hurt your fee fees.

97 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 6:44:44pm

re: #9 Targetpractice

Like I posted downstairs, TransCanada’s getting desperate. The Southern Leg (Keystone) has failed to move again and again in Congress, while the Western Leg alternative through British Columbia is so caught up in the courts that work on it might not begin before 2018. So now they’re trying to get the government up there to agree to an Eastern Leg to the sea instead.

I would be thrilled to see either the Eastern or Western leg gain approval. It would force somebody to build another refinery at the point of export instead of dumping everything into the gulf coast. It would help stabilize prices and (god forbid) the oil companies would have to build a facility that would provide long-term employment for lots of people.

98 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:44:45pm

re: #82 Kragar

Hitchhiker’s Guide

I haz my towel…

99 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 6:45:43pm

re: #98 Backwoods_Sleuth

I haz my towel…

Belgium

100 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 6:45:44pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

You read Radley Balko’s expose’ about the St. Louis metro area, I presume? Traffic tickets are a racket there, pure and simple.

As for why the Justice Department does not intervene, frankly its both a time, staffing and funding issue, and a Federalism issue. The Civil Rights division doesn’t want to get involved in a big sprawling case that they might not win.

On the other hand, letting the locals do as they please because the corruption is so widespread is hardly an appealing option.

Edited to add: By now, I think the Feds would be more than justified in handing out some serious ultimatums to state and local officials in MO to clean up their act or face having the Feds do it for them.

101 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:45:51pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

I don’t appreciate being called a ‘redneck’. I don;’t speak about Democrats in such disrespectful terms, kindly remain civil.

Apparently you take “redneck” as a bad descriptor.
Please remain civil your ownself.

102 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:49:19pm

re: #91 #FergusonFireside

Hey! Did your dog win it all? Did I miss the last vote? Update por favor.

No, dog #1 didn’t get past the quarter-finals. But dog #2 make it to the semi-finals! It was very exciting!

:D :D :D

103 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 6:51:59pm

re: #96 teleskiguy

What is this “take society back a century” business? The GOP does not do such small ball stuff. A 500 year regression is the minimal acceptable atavism, and a millennium is more like it.

104 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 6:52:03pm

I think I figured out what to get my 11-year-old nephew for Christmas, a complete Hitchhikers Guide!

105 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 6:53:48pm

re: #100 EPR-radar

On the other hand, letting the locals do as they please because the corruption is so widespread is hardly an appealing option.

Edited to add: By now, I think the Feds would be more than justified in handing out some serious ultimatums to state and local officials in MO to clean up their act or face having the Feds do it for them.

And how would they do that? It’s a whole legal miasma in play down there, from how towns are established, to how traffic tickets are paid for, to how sales tax revenue is divided. Such matters cannot be simply remade by fiat. They require state legislation, and such legislation would impact on a large amount of social fears and rent-seeking.

106 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 6:54:29pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

And how would they do that? It’s a whole legal miasma in play down there, from how towns are established, to how traffic tickets are paid for, to how sales tax revenue is divided. Such matters cannot be simply remade by fiat. They require state legislation, and such legislation would impact on a large amount of social fears and rent-seeking.

LOL, WUT???

107 lawhawk  Nov 18, 2014 6:54:47pm

Eh, flurries. :)

108 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 6:55:41pm

I couldn’t find a map that included both the Keystone XL proposed route and the Rosebud Sioux reservation lands, so I whipped up a shitty overlay:

As you can see the proposed route doesn’t actually go through the current reservation itself, but it’s going to be difficult for the project to avoid the myriad number of Tribal Trust lands external to the RIR.

So the questions for the Keystone backers are this:

1.) Do they plan on crossing any of the tribal trust lands?
2.) If not do they have the backing of enough non tribal land owners to snake a pipeline around the trust lands and through that stretch of South Dakota.
3.) I understand that many non-tribal ranch land owners are equally opposed to the pipeline project, if surface rights to the necessary lands cannot be purchased does the project then depend on the government employing imminent domain?

I’m not sure if tribal trust lands are considered part of the Sovereign Territory of the Tribe itself. My guess would be no, since they aren’t part of the actual reservation itself. However the pipeline will absolutely cross territory that was originally part of the 1910 Reservation border, and through lands that were subsequently taken away from the tribe, so the question of the status of the trust lands is germane. In any event it would be a PR disaster to force the pipeline onto those lands.

So that leave the only plausible route through the territory dependent on private land owners, who have also voiced their opposition. A pipeline isn’t a matter of mineral rights, its placement and transit through those lands is a surface rights matter, meaning that the proper easements will either have to be purchased for the entire route or the land will simply have to be taken by the government and repurposed for another private use. Something that would tend to violate a whole host of conservative principles regarding property rights.

I dont’ think that the Keystone debate is even about the pipeline anymore. It’s become a shibboleth and political war totem. The actual, significant practical issues the project faces aren’t even being discussed anymore.

109 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 6:56:05pm

DRUDGE ALERT

CHIIIIIIICAGO COOOOORRUPTIONNNNNN

RED SIREN AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Illinois Governor-Elect Bruce Rauner Received Cash From Firms Managing State Pension Money

SAY IT ISN’T SO

110 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 6:58:17pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

I dont’ think that the Keystone debate is even about the pipeline anymore. It’s become a shibboleth and political war totem. The actual, significant practical issues the project faces aren’t even being discussed anymore.

But they are here!

:-D

111 BeachDem  Nov 18, 2014 6:58:36pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

You read Radley Balko’s expose’ about the St. Louis metro area, I presume? Traffic tickets are a racket there, pure and simple.

I wish that piece would be put out in serialized form and given wide coverage. It was excellent; infuriating, sad, and eye-opening. It was really long, though. I am a fast reader and it took my about 1/2 an hour to finish it. With most people having the attention span of a flea, or a People magazine article, I think the only way it will be read widely is administered in small doses.

It was really well done, and should, at very least, be required reading for every elected official in the state of Missouri and the US Congress.

112 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 6:58:47pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Charlie Pierce pointed that out in his article today, that at this point, approval of Keystone has nothing to do with any supposed benefits, because they’ve all been proven to be half-truths or outright lies. At this point, the entire drive amongst wingnuts to see this project come to fruition is because liberals oppose it. It’s a point on the scoreboard to them now, and to hell with any who try to stand in their way.

113 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 18, 2014 7:02:44pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

…Something that would tend to violate a whole host of conservative principles regarding property rights.

Except when dealing with corporations. Corporations are not just people, my friend, they’re super-people with super-rights.

114 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:02:48pm

re: #111 BeachDem

I wish that piece would be put out in serialized form and given wide coverage. It was excellent; infuriating, sad, and eye-opening. It was really long, though. I am a fast reader and it took my about 1/2 an hour to finish it. With most people having the attention span of a flea, or a People magazine article, I think the only way it will be read widely is administered in small doses.

It was really well done, and should, at very least, be required reading for every elected official in the state of Missouri and the US Congress.

I agree completely. I have nothing but contempt for a system that is based on shakedowns and rent-seeking.

115 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 7:03:22pm

re: #64 #FergusonFireside

[Embedded content]

Ryan J. Reilly is in the Jennings MO courthouse. Another report of the modern Jim Crow.

You cannot mail in a payment less than 100.00.

That’s really strange. It costs them more to have clerks there to accept payments and hand out receipts than to process mailed in payments I would think. I wonder how they explain this policy.

116 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:04:13pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

I agree completely. I have nothing but contempt for a system that is based on shakedowns and rent-seeking.

So, please explain how that fits with your assertion in #105

117 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:05:22pm

re: #115 funky chicken

That’s really strange. It costs them more to have clerks there to accept payments and hand out receipts than to process mailed in payments I would think. I wonder how they explain this policy.

It’s not so strange when you figure in the added penalties (financial and put-yer-ass-in-jail-on-a-warrant) involved.

118 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 7:05:45pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

And how would they do that? It’s a whole legal miasma in play down there, from how towns are established, to how traffic tickets are paid for, to how sales tax revenue is divided. Such matters cannot be simply remade by fiat. They require state legislation, and such legislation would impact on a large amount of social fears and rent-seeking.

The fact that it is difficult is not an excuse to make no effort.

In fact, this is my biggest philosophical objection to conservatism as a whole. Of course modifying the status quo is difficult. So what?

119 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 7:06:55pm

re: #107 lawhawk

Shiiitttt, fuck that.

120 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:08:58pm

re: #116 Backwoods_Sleuth

So, please explain how that fits with your assertion in #105

I despise the system that’s sprung up around St Louis, but the way it is sustained is such that I do not think it can be undone effectively with a federal court order. Changing such a system of laws is the job of the legislature, but I seriously doubt the Missouri state legislature will be inclined to do so.

121 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 7:09:04pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

And how would they do that? It’s a whole legal miasma in play down there, from how towns are established, to how traffic tickets are paid for, to how sales tax revenue is divided. Such matters cannot be simply remade by fiat. They require state legislation, and such legislation would impact on a large amount of social fears and rent-seeking.

A Federal civil rights case is all the leverage that is needed, if there is a will to pursue it. The Federal tool kit from the tail end of the Jim Crow era is still there, plus RICO powers that are practically unlimited.

122 dog philosopher  Nov 18, 2014 7:09:29pm

in a way im disappointed that the pipeline doesnt look like it will pass any time soon with a veto proof majority, altho it is evil of me to even consider wishing that it would

you see the thing is that the whole enterprise runs right through the heart of red state territory, and if obama vetoed it and the gop stamped its mark on it unmistakeably, then the resultant exercise of overwhelming federal and corporate power through eminent domain and other violations of local sensibilities would bid fair to destroy every pretense the wall st gop has ever made about itself in the course of decades of lies to its base

123 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:11:20pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I despise the system that’s sprung up around St Louis, but the way it is sustained is such that I do not think it can be undone effectively with a federal court order. Changing such a system of laws is the job of the legislature, but I seriously doubt the Missouri state legislature will be inclined to do so.

Why not?

124 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:11:29pm

re: #115 funky chicken

That’s really strange. It costs them more to have clerks there to accept payments and hand out receipts than to process mailed in payments I would think. I wonder how they explain this policy.

The court was known for locking the doors ten or so minutes early. Then, when you didn’t make it “in time” they would fine you for that.

125 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:11:46pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

re: #112 Targetpractice

Charlie Pierce pointed that out in his article today, that at this point, approval of Keystone has nothing to do with any supposed benefits, because they’ve all been proven to be half-truths or outright lies. At this point, the entire drive amongst wingnuts to see this project come to fruition is because liberals oppose it. It’s a point on the scoreboard to them now, and to hell with any who try to stand in their way.

Why don’t “all the supposed benefits” include the energy it moves?

126 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 7:11:59pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I despise the system that’s sprung up around St Louis, but the way it is sustained is such that I do not think it can be undone effectively with a federal court order. Changing such a system of laws is the job of the legislature, but I seriously doubt the Missouri state legislature will be inclined to do so.

It would appear that you agree that civil rights are being violated by local authorities in St. Louis. Why exactly should the Feds do nothing about this because the state and local authorities won’t fix this on their own?

How would one distinguish the Ferguson situation from earlier cases in which Federal civil rights action was pursued? The state and local officials in the Jim Crow south were also part of the problem, after all.

127 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:13:30pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Seems like the Rosebud Sioux tribe and the other local landowners could effectively block the shit out of the XL project with just a few judicious 1031 land swaps. The ranchers would trade parcels the project needs in exchange for equivalent tribal lands to the West. They wouldn’t even have to move, just rent each other back their original lots, and the Tribal Trust protections would then encumber the land Keystone needs.

128 dog philosopher  Nov 18, 2014 7:14:10pm

Rent-seeking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics (see public choice theory), rent-seeking is spending wealth on political lobbying to increase one’s share of existing wealth without creating wealth. The effects of rent-seeking are reduced economic efficiency through poor allocation of resources, reduced wealth creation, lost government revenue, increased income inequality,[1] and national decline.

from the definition i cant see what any member of the gop would have against it

129 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 18, 2014 7:14:15pm

re: #125 Indy GOP Refugee

Why don’t “all the supposed benefits” include the energy it moves?

Problems would arise when its stops moving and starts leaking into the groundwater.

130 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 7:14:32pm

Speaking of rednecks.

131 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:15:02pm

re: #126 EPR-radar

exactly

132 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:15:13pm

re: #107 lawhawk

OT, Do you follow @onelegsandpiper ? twitter.com

Just thinking, he’s on the Jersey Shore and his morning (every morning) romp is always enjoyable. He’s also a prolific wood worker. (not giving him justice)

133 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:15:39pm

re: #125 Indy GOP Refugee

Why don’t “all the supposed benefits” include the energy it moves?

Probably because almost none of that energy will get used by or in the US. It’s crap, bunker grade fuel at best, and needs to be thinned down with previously distilled fractions in order to move at all.

134 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 7:16:15pm

re: #130 teleskiguy

Widyadidya:
“Man, you didnt bring your truck widyadidya?”

Jeff Foxworthy.

135 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:16:40pm

re: #129 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Problems would arise when its stops moving and starts leaking into the groundwater.

How is that not true of every method of moving the oil? Trucks leak or crash as do trains. I mean don’t they fix leaks?

136 dog philosopher  Nov 18, 2014 7:17:41pm

re: #130 teleskiguy

Speaking of rednecks.

[Embedded content]

note that our friend here has a very hip **nix T

137 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:17:47pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Per Charles C. Pierce: The Keystone XL pipeline must be built because it is no longer a construction project, it is an article of the conservative faith.

138 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:18:19pm

re: #126 EPR-radar

It would appear that you agree that civil rights are being violated by local authorities in St. Louis. Why exactly should the Feds do nothing about this because the state and local authorities won’t fix this on their own?

How would one distinguish the Ferguson situation from earlier cases in which Federal civil rights action was pursued? The state and local officials in the Jim Crow south were also part of the problem, after all.

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people. I also don’t think a court order can be obtained to do what really needs to be done: Force consolidation upon St. Louis County and dissolve/combine a large number of its towns.

The underlying legal problem is too many town governments chasing government revenue streams. But I don’t think a civil rights case can be brought on that aspect of the problem, which leaves any case treating some of the symptoms but not the real disease. And if all you treat is the symptoms, the disease will just recur in somewhat different form.

139 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:18:42pm

re: #133 goddamnedfrank

Probably because almost none of that energy will get used by or in the US. It’s crap, bunker grade fuel at best, and needs to be thinned down with previously distilled fractions in order to move at all.

But a global market means that makes more oil energy available to us anyway. Bunker oil is how cargo moves right?

140 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 18, 2014 7:18:44pm

re: #135 Indy GOP Refugee

How is that not true of every method of moving the oil? Trucks leak or crash as do trains.

They carry limited amounts.

Look, it seems you like this pipeline and seem to believe that our wealth and prosperity are a factor of how much enegy we consume.

141 sagehen  Nov 18, 2014 7:19:26pm

re: #135 Indy GOP Refugee

How is that not true of every method of moving the oil? Trucks leak or crash as do trains.

The contents of a truck are finite. No more than a truckload. The contents of a pipeline are infinite.

142 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:19:31pm

re: #135 Indy GOP Refugee

How is that not true of every method of moving the oil? Trucks leak or crash as do trains.

One difference is volume.

The other is access. When a truck crashes it’s on a road, so getting a effective cleanup response to the impacted area is comparatively easy. When a pipeline ruptures in the middle of wild lands the ability to get on site and deal with it can be iffy at best.

143 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:20:01pm

re: #135 Indy GOP Refugee

How is that not true of every method of moving the oil? Trucks leak or crash as do trains. I mean don’t they fix leaks?

They don’t “fix” leaks. They just let them happen and tell us that they can clean it up.
Tell the folks in Mayflower, Arkansas, (and hundreds of other places) how that works out.

144 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 7:21:02pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people. I also don’t think a court order can be obtained to do what really needs to be done: Force consolidation upon St. Louis County and dissolve/combine a large number of its towns.

The underlying legal problem is too many town governments chasing government revenue streams. But I don’t think a civil rights case can be brought on that aspect of the problem, which leaves any case treating some of the symptoms but not the real disease. And if all you treat is the symptoms, the disease will just recur in somewhat different form.

If the Feds are going to act, they need to do so intelligently. I think a good start to a civil rights case, if they ever get it in gear, would be to have consolidation of municipal governments to a much more reasonable level be one of the remedies sought in suit.

145 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:21:47pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people. I also don’t think a court order can be obtained to do what really needs to be done: Force consolidation upon St. Louis County and dissolve/combine a large number of its towns.

The underlying legal problem is too many town governments chasing government revenue streams. But I don’t think a civil rights case can be brought on that aspect of the problem, which leaves any case treating some of the symptoms but not the real disease. And if all you treat is the symptoms, the disease will just recur in somewhat different form.

O.M.G.

146 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 7:22:52pm

re: #78 Indy GOP Refugee

Here is what i don’t understand. The Esquire article Skip cites above says the right answer is not ever use that energy. Ummm, okay exactly what oil or gas if any are we supposed to use? None? Saudi? North sea? Alaskan? No wait that comes in a pipe. Pretend we have a replacement in place despite the obvious fact we don’t?

Won’t we need & use the energy regardless of the politics? Or just burn the same oil via trucks or trains? “We” being the global energy consumption. Not just the US, it’s a global commodity anyway.

Seems to me all the politics is short term but energy needs are eternal.

I’d rather use our own oil and gas than buy it from Saudi Arabia or Russia. I believe the oil and gas companies should be compelled to invest heavily in renewables rather than just pocketing record-breaking profits year after year. If they won’t invest I think we should tax the hell out of them and build the renewable energy infrastructure using government money.

147 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:23:36pm

OK, I am officially gobsmacked now…

148 bratwurst  Nov 18, 2014 7:23:38pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people.

149 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 7:25:19pm

Ahahaha

150 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:25:43pm

re: #140 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

it’s not that I like this pipeline. It’s that many seem to pretend we don’t need the energy. Or think we have a replacement for oil / gas all ready to switch on instead. It’s as if the pipeline in a mascot for global warming. As if the pipeline is not built the global population will use less oil/gas.

151 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:27:15pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people.

Citation please.

152 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:27:36pm

re: #139 Indy GOP Refugee

But a global market means that makes more oil energy available to us anyway. Bunker oil is how cargo moves right?

Not for long. Bunker sells for less than crude. It’s usually considered a waste product, and new international rules are about to go into effect that will further limit the already diminished usefulness to the US of tar sands oil.

Forty percent of the world’s fuel oil - the residual oil left over after extracting lighter products from crude oil - is used as bunker oil to power Ocean going vessels. Much of that fuel has relatively high sulfur content. Given that refineries sell fuel oil for less than the cost of crude - the bunkers market has traditionally been a convenient dumping ground for unwanted high sulfur residual fuel oil. New international regulations that came into force in 2012 drastically reduce the permitted sulfur content in bunkers after 2015 in the world’s populated coastal regions. Today we describe the impact the new rules could have on refiners.

153 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:27:54pm

re: #150 Indy GOP Refugee

it’s not that I like this pipeline. It’s that many seem to pretend we don’t need the energy. Or think we have a replacement for oil / gas all ready to switch on instead. It’s as if the pipeline in a mascot for global warming. As if the pipeline is not built the global population will use less oil/gas.

There is no benefit for the US, we just get all the risks.

154 freetoken  Nov 18, 2014 7:28:12pm

The NYT story is yet in another long history of confusion over what these pipelines carry.

A pipe is a pipe and can be designed to carry almost anything.

The big deal about a pipeline going into Alberta is to further the commercialization of the tar sands, the goo which needs to be processed before it can be further processed into useful products (unless you just want pitch to seal holes in a back-to-the-neolithic boat-building scenario.)

The NYT uses the terms “oil sands” and “petroleum”, but that is misleading, because those words conjure up in the American mind scenes of oil gushers from the movies.

The inability of American media to communicate facts about the physical world to the public is one of the reasons I’m so cynical about many of these topics.

155 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:28:31pm

re: #151 Belafon

Citation please.

yeah…I want to hear about these “black-run towns pulling the same shit”.

156 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:29:12pm

re: #145 Backwoods_Sleuth

re: #148 bratwurst

i mentioned that because it was in Balko’s article and it strikes me as a fact that will make winning a civil rights suit harder. The defense will point to who is charge of the towns engaging in these shakedowns and say “This is SOP for people of both races. How can it be a race-based civil rights violation?”

I was NOT trying to use a magical balance fairy, or blame black people as a race for anything.

157 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:30:08pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

i mentioned that because it was in Balko’s article and it strikes me as a fact that will make winning a civil rights suit harder. The defense will point to who is charge of the towns engaging in these shakedowns and say “This is SOP for people of both races. How can it be a race-based civil rights violation?”

I was NOT trying to use a magical balance fairy, or blame black people as a race for anything.

Name the “black-run towns pulling this same shit”.
And yes, you did indeed pull the MBF.

158 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:30:55pm

re: #153 Backwoods_Sleuth

That’s just not true in a global commodity market. The global supply has an impact on the price. Move the energy in a more expensive way and the price goes up. Same as the volume of offshore production has an impact.

159 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:32:15pm

re: #158 Indy GOP Refugee

That’s just not true in a global commodity market. The global supply has an impact on the price. Move the energy in a more expensive way and the price goes up. Same as the volume of offshore production has an impact.

That’s true, but the fact remains, there is no actual benefit to our country letting this pipeline project happen. All we get is the environmental risks, and those are very real.

160 freetoken  Nov 18, 2014 7:32:30pm

There is a strange parallel here to ebola and that tweet Charles put out that picked up some wide play, about all the fear mongers of ebola turning airborne means those fear mongers believe in evolution.

In this case, with the tar sands, the tar sands supporters are, by their advocation of the tars, admitting two things:
1) very high quality petroleum production has peaked;
2) we need to keep “oil” prices high and they will stay so.

But I doubt if the Keystone cheerleaders will admit that, just like the ebola-mongers won’t admit they are proposing evolution.

161 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:33:06pm

re: #150 Indy GOP Refugee

We don’t. Here’s a couple of reasons for why not.
#1 The market says so. Right now, the price of oil is way below that needed to make the line profitable.
#2 Our oil use has gone down. We are actually at 1990s oil usage levels due to efficiencies in cars. There’s no reason for this not to continue.

162 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 18, 2014 7:33:42pm

re: #158 Indy GOP Refugee

That’s just not true in a global commodity market. The global supply has an impact on the price. Move the energy in a more expensive way and the price goes up. Same as the volume of offshore production has an impact.

Same way the volume of offshore production increases the chances of oil spills. We get all the risks and no direct benefits from this deal.

163 Jenner7  Nov 18, 2014 7:33:43pm

Ugh, kids making me watch Frozen again. This. Movie. Sucks.

164 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:33:43pm

re: #154 freetoken

The big deal about a pipeline going into Alberta is to further the commercialization of the tar sands, the goo in which needs to be processed before it can be further processed into useful products (unless you just want pitch to seal holes in a back-to-the-neolithic boat-building scenario.)

People often hear that “oil is fungible” and think that means it’s all the same. It’s not. Grades of oil are fungible. Tar sands crude is basically shit. Beijing might be willing to burn it for energy, but then their air looks like this.

165 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:34:09pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

I agree completely. I have nothing but contempt for a system that is based on shakedowns and rent-seeking.

I’m behind in the thread, but Dark, I believe this situation is going on like crazy. Ferguson just shined the light. Check any minority neighborhood/municipality.

This is our responsibility as freeeeeeedom Americans to fix. Get on board.

166 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 7:34:44pm

re: #158 Indy GOP Refugee

That’s just not true in a global commodity market. The global supply has an impact on the price. Move the energy in a more expensive way and the price goes up. Same as the volume of offshore production has an impact.

Yet the point of building Keystone is not to increase global supply or lower oil prices. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, namely TransCanada wants the pipeline because it will ease transport of their sludge to refineries, allowing them to demand more per barrel than they can now. Those train cars and trucks full of this gunk don’t go all the way to Texas, they go to the Midwest, which is where they’re processed into something that refineries on the Gulf Coast can process into diesel.

Building Keystone just cuts out the middle man and allows them to send it straight to Port Arthur for refinement and export to European markets where diesel sells for a hell of a lot more.

167 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:35:20pm

re: #151 Belafon

Citation please.

From the article in question:

Much has been made of the disparity between Ferguson’s black population and the lack of black faces in its city government. That’s true, and it is a problem that exists in other towns as well. But Gordon points out that Ferguson is an old Missouri River town in the north of the county that predates the subdivision municipalities in the mid-county area. Blacks didn’t begin moving to Ferguson in significant numbers until the 1980s, and weren’t a majority until around 2000. The black populations of these towns are new, transient, and have no local history of political or institutional power.

In the towns along the interstate and east-west highways, where blacks have been a majority for a longer period of time, they have much more representation in city government. But these are the same parts of the county where, thanks to the area’s history, there are just too many towns, too many municipal governments, too many municipal employees, and not enough revenue to support them. It doesn’t seem to matter whether those employees are black or white, they’re a legacy of segregation and structural racism, so they’re still reliant on extracting fines and fees from their residents in order to function. If anything, they’re more reliant on those fees, since there isn’t enough wealth to generate sufficient revenue from property and sales taxes.

The town of Berkeley, for example, has unusually high black political participation. For about a century, there was a historically black enclave in northwest St. Louis County called Kinloch. In the 1980s, most of Kinloch was erased due to an expansion of the St. Louis airport. Much of Kinloch’s population wound up in nearby Berkeley, infusing the town with black residents who had been in the area for generations, and had well-established traditions of political participation and self government. Currently, Berkeley has an all-black city council, a black mayor, a black city manager, and majority-black police force.

If any town could overcome the legacy of structural racism that drew the map of St. Louis County, then, it would be Berkeley. And yet this town of 9,000 people still issued 10,452 traffic citations last year, and another 1,271 non-traffic ordinance violations. The town’s municipal court raised over $1 million in fines and fees, or about $111 per resident. The town issued 5,504 arrest warrants last year, and has another 13,436 arrest warrants outstanding. Those are modest numbers for St. Louis County, but they’re high for just about anywhere else.

“We’ve tried to rely on revenue from our municipal court as little as possible,” says Berkeley Mayor Theodore Hoskins. “We emphasize that traffic laws and ordinances are about public safety, not about revenue.” But there’s a cost to that. The town ran a $1.3 million deficit last year, and recently considered dissolving its police department to save money.

There are lots of good reasons why local governments should reflect the demographics of the towns they’re governing. But more racially representative governments in St. Louis County’s majority black towns haven’t diminished the misery that must be inflicted on the residents in order for those governments to exist. Black people in St. Louis County are no longer held back by legalized discrimination, but the turbulent history that drew the area’s map still plagues them, even in towns that are now run by black people

168 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:37:30pm

re: #121 EPR-radar

A Federal civil rights case is all the leverage that is needed, if there is a will to pursue it. The Federal tool kit from the tail end of the Jim Crow era is still there, plus RICO powers that are practically unlimited.

Eric Holder needs to go out with a fucking BANG.

But I doubt it. Too many white establishment people in power. How do you get ahead? Not by rocking that boat.

169 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:38:36pm

re: #158 Indy GOP Refugee

That’s just not true in a global commodity market. The global supply has an impact on the price. Move the energy in a more expensive way and the price goes up. Same as the volume of offshore production has an impact.

The global supply of shit has very little effect on the price of shinola, which is the exact analogy for this situation.

170 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:39:08pm

re: #164 goddamnedfrank

People often hear that “oil is fungible” and think that means it’s all the same. It’s not. Grades of oil are fungible. Tar sands crude is basically shit. Beijing might be willing to burn it for energy, but then their air looks like this.

[Embedded content]

Perhaps those places should scrub the output like so many places do already.

Flue-gas desulfurization (FGD) is a set of technologies used to remove sulfur dioxide (SO
2) from exhaust flue gases of fossil-fuel power plants, and from the emissions of other sulfur oxide emitting processes.

As stringent environmental regulations regarding SO2 emissions have been enacted in many countries, SO
2 is now being removed from flue gases by a variety of methods. Below are common methods used:
Wet scrubbing using a slurry of alkaline sorbent, usually limestone or lime, or seawater to scrub gases;
Spray-dry scrubbing using similar sorbent slurries;
Wet sulfuric acid process recovering sulfur in the form of commercial quality sulfuric acid;
SNOX Flue gas desulfurization removes sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and particulates from flue gases;
Dry sorbent injection systems.
For a typical coal-fired power station, flue-gas desulfurization (FGD) may remove 95 percent or more of the SO
2 in the flue gases.

171 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:41:13pm

re: #134 Varek Raith

Widyadidya:
“Man, you didnt bring your truck widyadidya?”

Jeff Foxworthy.

jeet?

(did you eat?)

172 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:42:08pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Try again. Something outside of St. Louis County.

173 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:44:05pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

For starters, there’s the fact that black-run towns are pulling this sort of shit as well as those run by white people. I also don’t think a court order can be obtained to do what really needs to be done: Force consolidation upon St. Louis County and dissolve/combine a large number of its towns.

The underlying legal problem is too many town governments chasing government revenue streams. But I don’t think a civil rights case can be brought on that aspect of the problem, which leaves any case treating some of the symptoms but not the real disease. And if all you treat is the symptoms, the disease will just recur in somewhat different form.

jesus christo Dark, I am not reading further than this racist as fuck sentiment.

174 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:45:52pm

re: #170 Indy GOP Refugee

Do you really think it’s just that easy? That simply purchasing emissions controls makes burning dirty fuel the same as clean fuel?

For one thing industrial emissions controls aren’t free, or even cheap. Those technologies largely depend on the rare precious metals Platinum and Palladium to work. For another, at even 5% the sheer volume of fuel that a developing economy like China consumes adds up.

There’s a reason that California demands it’s own blends of cleaner burning gasoline. A lot of cars couldn’t meet our stringent emissions standards without it.

175 NJDhockeyfan  Nov 18, 2014 7:47:31pm
176 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 7:47:56pm

re: #122 dog philosopher

in a way im disappointed that the pipeline doesnt look like it will pass any time soon with a veto proof majority, altho it is evil of me to even consider wishing that it would

you see the thing is that the whole enterprise runs right through the heart of red state territory, and if obama vetoed it and the gop stamped its mark on it unmistakeably, then the resultant exercise of overwhelming federal and corporate power through eminent domain and other violations of local sensibilities would bid fair to destroy every pretense the wall st gop has ever made about itself in the course of decades of lies to its base

Living in OK has made me pessimistic enough to fear that midwestern ranchers are brainwashed enough to support the thing until it contaminates their groundwater. People here still support fracking even though we now have frequent earthquakes. It’s like living in crazyland.

177 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:48:22pm

re: #148 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Dark, love you, but this was your epic white privilege beyond beyond. Good luck from here.

178 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:48:33pm

re: #172 Backwoods_Sleuth

Try again. Something outside of St. Louis County.

That was the area in question. My point was about how a lawsuit concerning St. Louis County might fare, I wasn’t trying to make a more generalized point about America.

I’m sorry I failed to communicate clearly.

179 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:48:49pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Close, but your example misses the certain charm that is the Ferguson city court system. A lot of towns here in Texas run off of fines for the same reason as the town your example mentioned: It’s the only real source of revenue for the town. We know those as places you don’t speed through, because they are looking for a reason to pull you over.

What makes Ferguson different is the stuff they pull after the ticket. They make you bring it in, and they shut the court doors early so you don’t make the hearing on time, which they then issue a fine for missing the hearing. Then they issue tickets for things like sleeping in a house that doesn’t have your name on the lease.

I would like to contrast the town you mentioned with the very white city I live in. At a dinner for those of us who volunteer for various city tasks (mine is CERT), the mayor bragged about the hundreds of thousands saved last year in taxes because of the people who volunteered for things like taking care of the parks, fire fighting (in a city of 40K), citizen patrol, etc. My city is so wealthy that large portions of the population don’t even need to get paid to work.

180 TedStriker  Nov 18, 2014 7:49:14pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

I don’t smoke weed, but if I could do so legally, I’d buy some Marley/Tuff Gong ganja, just for the novelty value.

181 Aunty Entity Dragon  Nov 18, 2014 7:50:33pm

re: #86 Kragar

I had the text based one

So did I. You could cheat on it if you knew the right peek and poke commands.

182 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:50:50pm

re: #179 Belafon

Again, I’m not defending the system in St. Louis County. What I question is if the problems there can be solved via a federal lawsuit.

183 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 7:51:25pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

Cannabis branding, yeesh!

Youtube Video

I have a brand of cannabis, it’s called Drool Bucket, ‘cause you get so stoned you need a bucket to catch your drool from the inevitable slack-jawed tilted head.

184 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 7:53:54pm

re: #179 Belafon

Gotta keep those property taxes low, amirite? Nobody wants to pay a living wage to malingering firefighters or park maintainers.

185 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 7:54:28pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Again, I’m not defending the system in St. Louis County. What I question is if the problems there can be solved via a federal lawsuit.

Sure, maybe the situation can be resolved with lots of hugs instead.

186 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 7:55:01pm

re: #174 goddamnedfrank

Do you really think it’s just that easy? That simply purchasing emissions controls makes burning dirty fuel the same as clean fuel?

For one thing industrial emissions controls aren’t free, or even cheap. Those technologies largely depend on the rare precious metals Platinum and Palladium to work. For another, at even 5% the sheer volume of fuel that a developing economy like China consumes adds up.

There’s a reason that California demands it’s own blends of cleaner burning gasoline. A lot of cars couldn’t meet our stringent emissions standards without it.

Those rare precious metals are catalysts. That means they recycle almost completely. No these things are not cheap. Nothing about industrial scale energy is cheap. Not the copper for lines, the hardware to drill, not the refineries themselves.

187 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 7:57:04pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

That was the area in question. My point was about how a lawsuit concerning St. Louis County might fare, I wasn’t trying to make a more generalized point about America.

I’m sorry I failed to communicate clearly.

No, you made a blanket statement.

When called out in responding to others’ comments in the past, you often excuse yourself by saying that you take things literally, so I find this particular response of yours quite puzzling.

188 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:57:34pm

re: #184 funky chicken

That’s pretty much how I felt about it when I heard it. I do CERT because the idea is that if a major disaster occurs, having a number of citizens trained not to freak out is a good thing, and we’re pretty much there for emergencies. For the full time jobs like parks and the fire department, I’m thinking “pay these people.”

Though one of the visible effects of our cheapness is a good number of our roads are crap to drive on.

189 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 7:58:01pm

re: #157 Backwoods_Sleuth

Name the “black-run towns pulling this same shit”.
And yes, you did indeed pull the MBF.

And this is the ever perpetual white balance fairy. They make things up to justify their own wrongs.

190 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:58:25pm

re: #184 funky chicken

Gotta keep those property taxes low, amirite? Nobody wants to pay a living wage to malingering firefighters or park maintainers.

If a town is poor, as many in St. Louis County are, its going to find itself hard-pressed to raise additional funds with a property tax increase. i understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think it has enough application to be a solution in this case.

191 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 7:59:12pm

re: #189 #FergusonFireside

And this is the ever perpetual white balance fairy. They make things up to justify their own wrongs.

Good point.

192 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 7:59:30pm

re: #187 Backwoods_Sleuth

No, you made a blanket statement.

When called out in responding to others’ comments in the past, you often excuse yourself by saying that you take things literally, so I find this particular response of yours quite puzzling.

I wasn’t trying to do so. I goofed up. I’m sorry for having done so.

193 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:01:17pm

re: #186 Indy GOP Refugee

Those rare precious metals are catalysts. That means they recycle almost completely.

That doesn’t really help you when you’re buying them for the first time or ramping up your production, both things a developing economy faces. All it does is provide a slight rebate on maintenance costs.

No these things are not cheap. Nothing about industrial scale energy is cheap. Not the copper for lines, the hardware to drill, not the refineries themselves.

Not sure what the point here is. Countries like China don’t use shitty fuel because it saves us money, it doesn’t. It saves them money. The fuel they prefer and buy in bulk doesn’t drive down the cost of our fuel sources, because we’re competing with other developed economies that have modern environmental standards for our fuel. We buy it because the alternative is unacceptable. Getting that unacceptable alternative to market more cheaply doesn’t help us much, if at all.

194 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:02:34pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

That was the area in question. My point was about how a lawsuit concerning St. Louis County might fare, I wasn’t trying to make a more generalized point about America.

I’m sorry I failed to communicate clearly.

We also have the point from the excerpt you cite that the black-run townships have a level of traffic fine abuse that is modest by St Louis county standards.

That’s enough to give a race-based civil right case some legs.

Furthermore, there’s no logical reason the Federal case has to be exclusively race based. A municipality is not entitled to make a mockery of due process of law by state-level sloth even if said mockery may not be racist.

195 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:02:40pm

re: #188 Belafon

That’s pretty much how I felt about it when I heard it. I do CERT because the idea is that if a major disaster occurs, having a number of citizens trained not to freak out is a good thing, and we’re pretty much there for emergencies. For the full time jobs like parks and the fire department, I’m thinking “pay these people.”

Though one of the visible effects of our cheapness is a good number of our roads are crap to drive on.

Where do you live in Oklahoma? ;)

196 NJDhockeyfan  Nov 18, 2014 8:03:26pm
197 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:03:48pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Again, I’m not defending the system in St. Louis County. What I question is if the problems there can be solved via a federal lawsuit.

If there is no federal lawsuit, then it appears no remedial action will be taken in the foreseeable future.

Given that, isn’t it incumbent on anyone of good will to think of ways to make a Federal lawsuit work?

198 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:03:49pm

re: #174 goddamnedfrank
re: #193 goddamnedfrank

Why am I open minded on the pipe? Not over the GOP. Not because I’m a big believer in the jobs proposed.

EDITED-Because nobody has convinced me that the likely alternatives are any better for the environment. The unlikely alternatives are unpersuasive by definition. The critics are often those that also oppose nuclear power to a degree that prevent development of safer technologies, that oppose winds over bird strikes, solar farms over the alleged impact on the fauna or the unsightly nature of them. In other words against, against, and against, with no credible alternative to feed heat and move people.

199 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 8:05:02pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

I wasn’t trying to do so. I goofed up. I’m sorry for having done so.

OK, I accept that.
Did you go back and read what you actually posted and see how it was offensive? And, more importantly, how you could have written it differently and still make your point?
I do hope so, because I do appreciate many of your comments, but ones like that just make me cringe.

200 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:05:21pm

re: #195 funky chicken

Little further south.

201 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 8:07:09pm

re: #194 EPR-radar

We also have the point from the excerpt you cite that the black-run townships have a level of traffic fine abuse that is modest by St Louis county standards.

That’s enough to give a race-based civil right case some legs.

Furthermore, there’s no logical reason the Federal case has to be exclusively race based. A municipality is not entitled to make a mockery of due process of law by state-level sloth even if said mockery may not be racist.

i.e. fines less than X cannot be mailed in.

202 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 8:08:17pm

re: #199 Backwoods_Sleuth

OK, I accept that.
Did you go back and read what you actually posted and see how it was offensive? And, more importantly, how you could have written it differently and still make your point?
I do hope so, because I do appreciate many of your comments, but ones like that just make me cringe.

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I’m not sure how I should have written that.

203 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:08:46pm

re: #196 NJDhockeyfan

204 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:09:40pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

If a town is poor, as many in St. Louis County are, its going to find itself hard-pressed to raise additional funds with a property tax increase. i understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think it has enough application to be a solution in this case.

Yeah, I was talking with Belafon about his wealthy suburb, which sounds very much like the wealthy suburb in which I reside. Our firefighters aren’t volunteers now that we moved inside city limits, but when we lived right outside those boundaries they were. In OK we have lots of wildfires (which I didn’t know until we moved here) in addition to major tornados and ice storms, floods, and now earthquakes, so having first responders who are volunteers is insane to me…but people here are more committed to low, low taxes than public investment.

205 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:09:50pm

re: #201 #FergusonFireside

i.e. fines less than X cannot be mailed in.

And close the courtroom a few minutes early to jack up fees from the no-shows thereby generated. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

If I were at the Justice department, I would be sorely tempted to tell MO that I’d seek the remedy of MO being demoted back to a territory. It’s a pity that would clearly be unconstitutional.

206 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:10:22pm

re: #198 Indy GOP Refugee

Why am I open minded on the pipe? Not over the GOP. Not because I’m a big believer in the jobs proposed.

Because nobody has convinced me that the likely alternatives are any better for the environment. The unlikely alternatives are unpersuasive by definition. If the critics were not often those that also oppose nuclear power to a degree that prevent development of safer technologies, that oppose winds over bird strikes, solar farms over the alleged impact on the fauna or the unsightly nature of them. In other words against, against, and against, with no credible alternative to feed heat and move people.

The irony here: you’re defining yourself in opposition to people based on their positions on other issues. You also start off putting the burden of proof on those opposed to the project instead of the project backers, who have yet to meet EPA review. It also contains a huge straw man, you’re conflating opposition to Keystone with opposition to wind power because you want to, not because there’s any significant percentage of those opposed to the pipeline project obviously opposed to wind power. You’re just created this huge caricature of environmentalism, it’s not very interesting or accurate.

207 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:10:34pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

The global supply of shit has very little effect on the price of shinola, which is the exact analogy for this situation.

Thanks for the fact based counter point.

///

208 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:11:21pm

re: #198 Indy GOP Refugee

The western pipeline in Canada is a much better idea. It’s shorter and would require new investment in a refinery in British Columbia, which would employ folks at high salaries for years to come.

209 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 8:12:21pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I’m not sure how I should have written that.

Well, think about it. You could have done it. Really, you could have.

210 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:13:25pm

re: #198 Indy GOP Refugee

Why am I open minded on the pipe? Not over the GOP. Not because I’m a big believer in the jobs proposed.

EDITED-Because nobody has convinced me that the likely alternatives are any better for the environment. The unlikely alternatives are unpersuasive by definition. The critics are often those that also oppose nuclear power to a degree that prevent development of safer technologies, that oppose winds over bird strikes, solar farms over the alleged impact on the fauna or the unsightly nature of them. In other words against, against, and against, with no credible alternative to feed heat and move people.

What jobs? This pipeline will have as much effect on job creation as the census did back in 2010, a temporary blip that will offer people at most 6 months of employment before a section is finished and work moves on. There’s going to be 50 permanent maintenance jobs.

211 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:13:34pm

re: #206 goddamnedfrank

Well then tell me what happens instead of the pipe if it is not built that is beneficial for the environment. What better way to produce and use that energy comes into play instead? Show me the better alternative.

212 #FergusonFireside  Nov 18, 2014 8:13:38pm

re: #205 EPR-radar

And close the courtroom a few minutes early to jack up fees from the no-shows thereby generated. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

If I were at the Justice department, I would be sorely tempted to tell MO that I’d seek the remedy of MO being demoted back to a territory. It’s a pity that would clearly be unconstitutional.

And again, St. Louis Co. is in the spotlight. How many 1000’s of counties are doing the same.

The new jim crow.

213 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 8:13:46pm

re: #203 Belafon

[Embedded content]

They’re afraid of riots breaking out. Such a fear may not be wholly rational, but it is real.

214 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:14:23pm

re: #208 funky chicken

The western pipeline in Canada is a much better idea. It’s shorter and would require new investment in a refinery in British Columbia, which would employ folks at high salaries for years to come.

Does BC even want a refinery? I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Vancouver, I can’t imagine such a project would be very popular there.

215 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:14:42pm

re: #211 Indy GOP Refugee

see my #208

216 bratwurst  Nov 18, 2014 8:15:31pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

I’m not sure how I should have written that.

Let me make a suggestion:

“I am not certain that this problem is limited to majority black municipalities with majority white governments”.

217 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:16:05pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I’m not sure how I should have written that.

By not bringing the black-run townships into it at all. Especially since the significance of that is undercut sharply by the source material (“modest by St. Louis county standards”).

218 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:16:07pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

Yep, because all available evidence points to riots because of Ferguson happening in the places where these guns are sold at being zero. The only real problems the city of Ferguson itself has had has been with outsiders.

These people aren’t buying guns because they are scared of rioting. The guns are being bought because these non-law enforcement people are wanting to exert control over the residents of the town.

219 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:16:26pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

What jobs? This pipeline will have as much effect on job creation as the census did back in 2010, a temporary blip that will offer people at most 6 months of employment before a section is finished and work moves on. There’s going to be 50 permanent maintenance jobs.

Right. NOT because of the jobs. That’s what I said. The jobs are temporary. Same as Alaska. The energy it moves is what matters. All else is detail. Exactly how many jobs for how long. The precise route. The profits to the producers. We need that energy at some point.

220 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:17:11pm

re: #214 goddamnedfrank

In the city, I’m sure not. A little north of the city … might not face huge opposition, I don’t know. I’d rather let the Canadians deal with shipping and refining their sludge than have it all piped across our entire country though.

221 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:19:05pm

re: #211 Indy GOP Refugee

Well then tell me what happens instead of the pipe if it is not built that is beneficial for the environment. What better way to produce and use that energy comes into play instead? Show me the better alternative.

Leave it alone and invest in alternatives that don’t suck nearly as much.

The latest company to pull out of the tar sands is Norwegian oil giant Statoil. But just in the last year, Shell, the French energy company Total, and SunCor Energy of Canada have all cancelled tar sands projects.

That pipeline is crucial to tar sands projects becoming profitable, Palmer says. Without it, “a marginally profitable business [turns] into a completely unprofitable business — and that’s scaring oil producers off of tar sands projects,” Palmer explains.

Because tar sands oil is a much lower-quality version of crude oil, it sells at $20 to $30 dollars less than conventional crude. With conventional crude oil now selling for about $80 a barrel, the price of tar sands oil has fallen to around $60 a barrel. It also costs about $25 per barrel to move tar sands crude by rail from Alberta to the Gulf of Mexico, Palmer says. The Keystone Pipeline would cut that transportation price from $25 to $9 a barrel, which is why oil companies are so eager to see the pipeline move forward.

If the price of tar sands oil continues to drop, and companies have to pay that extra $15 to $20 for oil-by-rail indefinitely, then suddenly the long-term viability of tar sands project looks very dubious, Palmer says.

Is there a compelling reason for the government to get involved, to grease up this pig just to make one private industry project profitable?

222 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 8:19:18pm

re: #218 Belafon

Yep, because all available evidence points to riots because of Ferguson happening in the places where these guns are sold at being zero. The only real problems the city of Ferguson itself has had has been with outsiders.

These people aren’t buying guns because they are scared of rioting. The guns are being bought because these non-law enforcement people are wanting to exert control over the residents of the town.

How are residents of a town two towns over going to exert control in Ferguson?

223 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:19:43pm

re: #215 funky chicken

see my #208

Right, that would make sense. But about what the Esquire author had said in the article, as the best thing is never produce that energy. Wish I could ask him, okay then what? Civilization lives on energy.

224 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:19:46pm

re: #219 Indy GOP Refugee

We need that energy at some point.

Why? The sand is a lot of trouble and is expensive to process. The route they are suggesting is longer than it needs to be if they run it through canada. Investing the time and money in renewables would pay off better.

225 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:19:55pm

re: #219 Indy GOP Refugee

Right. NOT because of the jobs. That’s what I said. The jobs are temporary. Same as Alaska. The energy it moves is what matters. All else is detail. Exactly how many jobs for how long. The precise route. The profits to the producers. We need that energy at some point.

I’m perfectly comfortable with a nationalist version of NIMBY regarding the Keystone XL pipeline. The risk to the US and its citizens is non-trivial and the rewards to any US non-plutocrats are non-existent.

226 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 8:20:20pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

How are residents of a town two towns over going to exert control in Ferguson?

They can show up with the excuse that they are “helping”…

227 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:20:40pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

How are residents of a town two towns over going to exert control in Ferguson?

By going to Ferguson with their shiny new guns.

Remember the anarchists that showed up to help?

228 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 8:21:45pm

re: #226 Backwoods_Sleuth

re: #227 Belafon

And why to do you think they would do such a thing and what evidence do you have of such a plan?

229 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:21:55pm

re: #220 funky chicken

In the city, I’m sure not. A little north of the city … might not face huge opposition, I don’t know. I’d rather let the Canadians deal with shipping and refining their sludge than have it all piped across our entire country though.

A little north of the city lie a large number of Canadian First Nations. They’d be the first to oppose such a project.

230 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:22:24pm

re: #223 Indy GOP Refugee

Right, that would make sense. But about what the Esquire author had said in the article, as the best thing is never produce that energy. Wish I could ask him, okay then what? Civilization lives on energy.

If we produce all the available fossil fuel energy reserves, I think we’re guaranteed a highly unfavorable climate change outcome.

One might think to pick and choose which of the remaining reserves get developed, prioritizing the ones with the least impact for the most energy.

Something sensible like this will never get off the ground, of course.

231 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 8:22:51pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

And why to do you think they would do such a thing and what evidence do you have of such a plan?

You weren’t paying attention when they showed up last time?

232 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:23:04pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

Leave it alone and invest in alternatives that don’t suck nearly as much.

Show me the one that has that much energy production at about the same time frame.

Is there a compelling reason for the government to get involved, to grease up this pig just to make one private industry project profitable?

Nice strawman, i never advocated that.
The compelling government involvement would be OSHA and then the EPA. Department of Energy. BLM. Perhaps some others.

233 Belafon  Nov 18, 2014 8:23:17pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

littlegreenfootballs.com

More specifically, this link: littlegreenfootballs.com.

234 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:24:27pm

re: #219 Indy GOP Refugee

Right. NOT because of the jobs. That’s what I said. The jobs are temporary. Same as Alaska. The energy it moves is what matters. All else is detail. Exactly how many jobs for how long. The precise route. The profits to the producers. We need that energy at some point.

Who’s “we”? I’m not sure if you’ve been following the news, but the US has become a net exporter of oil in recent years, thanks to several states fracking themselves crazy to get shale oil and natural gas.

And the energy is going to be in the form of diesel, not crude oil. TransCanada’s looking to sell the finished product overseas in Europe and China, where there is a far greater demand for diesel than here in the US. In other words, allowing this sludge to pass through several of our states is not going to cause a blip on energy prices here in the US.

235 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:25:04pm

re: #230 EPR-radar

If we produce all the available fossil fuel energy reserves, I think we’re guaranteed a highly unfavorable climate change outcome.

One might think to pick and choose which of the remaining reserves get developed, prioritizing the ones with the least impact for the most energy.

Something sensible like this will never get off the ground, of course.

That would be why I’m rather hard on the critics of developing nuclear energy, those that also oppose the rest of the alternatives in so many instances. I think the only one not beset by critics and skeptics might be geothermal. But Yosemite seems a hell of a place for a power plant.

236 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:29:17pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

So your objection is developing the resource for production at all not the pipe per se? You would object regardless of how it’s moved if I understand you. Europe has done a nice job of developing diesel for cars that burn it fairly clean. China? well they obviously need to catch up in so many ways. Catalytic converters, scrubbers, etc.

“we” means global energy needs. Not just us.

237 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:30:22pm

re: #235 Indy GOP Refugee

That would be why I’m rather hard on the critics of developing nuclear energy, those that also oppose the rest of the alternatives in so many instances. I think the only one not beset by critics and skeptics might be geothermal. But Yosemite seems a hell of a place for a power plant.

With respect to nuclear energy, I have conflicted views. I think the technical problems can be addressed in ways that make nuclear competitive with the other options.

However, I remain deeply skeptical of the human side of things. Running a nuclear power plant is years of boring routine, with the possibility that a crisis may arise that requires an A-team to be on the spot. Staffing for that is difficult and may be impossible.

238 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 18, 2014 8:31:49pm

It’s 14F outside and 52F indoors, so I’m off to curl up under the duvet and have a short nap with the cats and dogs for a few hours until it’s time to load the woodstove again.

laterz…

239 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:34:05pm

re: #236 Indy GOP Refugee

So your objection is developing the resource for production at all not the pipe per se? You would object regardless of how it’s moved if I understand you. Europe has done a nice job of developing diesel for cars that burn it fairly clean. China? well they obviously need to catch up in so many ways. Catalytic converters, scrubbers, etc.

My objection is there’s nothing we get out of the deal. We do not benefit in any significant fashion comparable to the risk we’re being asked to take.

240 Interesting Times  Nov 18, 2014 8:35:09pm

re: #229 goddamnedfrank

A little north of the city lie a large number of Canadian First Nations. They’d be the first to oppose such a project.

Oh, there’s far, far more opposition than just them:

The government may rubber stamp resource projects, but it can’t steamroll First Nations rights, the B.C. government, and an entire province that has said all along that no means no. Expect this project to be tied up in the courts for years and face opposition throughout the province and across Canada. Environmental Defence will support First Nations and British Columbians as long as it takes to finally put an end to this pipeline in the courts and on the ground.

241 Dark_Falcon  Nov 18, 2014 8:37:25pm

re: #233 Belafon

littlegreenfootballs.com

More specifically, this link: littlegreenfootballs.com.

I hardly think most people who are buying guns are either members of the Ku Klux Klan or sympathizers with it.

But I’m done for now. I’m going to relax and watch TV.

242 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 8:37:48pm

It’s cold.
Damn Canadians and their cold air.
/

243 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:38:12pm

re: #240 Interesting Times

Oh, there’s far, far more opposition than just them:

Which is why TransCanada has made such a strong push to see Keystone built, because the much talked about alternative route has smashed into a brick wall. Not even Stephen Harper can order the people in the path of this boondoggle to just roll over and accept the sludge passing through their backyards.

244 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:38:26pm

I’d love to hear conservatives defend this:

TransCanada has used eminent domain on another part of the pipeline route (NYTimes). In a 2012 ruling, Texas Judge Bill Harris HRS +1.3% of Lamar County upheld TransCanada’s takeover by eminent domain of a strip of land across Julia Trigg Crawford’s pasture in Paris, Texas to build part of its Keystone XL pipeline. The ruling was delivered in a 15-word text message sent from the Judge’s iPhone, demonstrating the seriousness with which the Judge handled such a constitutionally-charged case. Not sure if that ruling is a first in judicial history, but I guess it was better than a Tweet.

As usual, the political cauldron has been thoroughly churned during this President’s tenure. Eight years ago, President George Bush issued Executive Order 13406 which stated that the federal government must limit its use of taking private property for public use with just compensation for the purpose of benefiting the general public, wording mirrored in the U.S. Constitution. Bush’s Order 13406 limits the use of eminent domain so it may not be used for the purpose of advancing the economic interest of private parties to be given ownership or use of the property taken. While Bush’s Order applies only to the Feds, it certainly colors the same powers of the States and has an effect on the appellate courts.

So, someone explain to me again how State governments using ED to benefit TransCanada is consistent with conservative ideas about ownership of private property and state infringement on personal freedom?

245 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:39:14pm

re: #229 goddamnedfrank

So squeeze it in south of the city? Hell, even northern WA would work, and WA outside of Seattle is pretty conservative, so they might be able to push that through. The mountains in Idaho could be another story of course.

I’d prefer to have them refine the crap there in Alberta, but that’s probably not feasible I guess.

246 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:39:15pm

re: #244 goddamnedfrank

I’d love to hear conservatives defend this:

So, someone explain to me again how State governments using ED to benefit TransCanada is consistent with conservative ideas about ownership of private property and state infringement on personal freedom?

Because shut up, that’s why.

//

247 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 8:39:23pm
248 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:39:40pm

re: #237 EPR-radar

What gets me there is how the development was so stifled that safer technology hardly has a chance to come out. The newest designs get the same old opposition. Hyperion, light water, pebble bed, etc. Pssive safety design. None of it has a chance until tested and tried.

Hat’s off to the critics, very well played. Call the old designs too dangerous to have, the technology too uncertain to improve and therefore head off the very improvements that make nuclear safer and practical.

Insist on long term storage of the waste and head off each and every installation of same. Win win!

249 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:39:52pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

I hardly think most people who are buying guns are either members of the Ku Klux Klan or sympathizers with it.

But I’m done for now. I’m going to relax and watch TV.

They’re fucking idiots. Anybody buying a gun based on fears of black civil unrest is a racist idiot.

250 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:40:08pm

re: #239 Targetpractice

My objection is there’s nothing we get out of the deal. We do not benefit in any significant fashion comparable to the risk we’re being asked to take.

Yup.

251 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 8:40:40pm

re: #247 teleskiguy

[Embedded content]

*_*

252 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:41:22pm

re: #247 teleskiguy

[Embedded content]

Yet tomorrow morning, dozens of businesses will expect their employees on time and ably working, else they’ll be fired/docked pay.

253 bratwurst  Nov 18, 2014 8:41:44pm
254 goddamnedfrank  Nov 18, 2014 8:42:01pm

I’d be all for nuclear power plants if they were socialized and the US Navy ran them. But a private industry that finds it utterly impossible to purchase accident insurance on the free market should take that fact as something of a hint.

255 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:43:44pm

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I’d be all for nuclear power plants if it as socialized and the US Navy ran them. But a private industry that finds it utterly impossible to purchase accident insurance on the free market should take that fact as something of a hint.

Bingo. Private sector cost cutting on staffing is exactly why I think nuclear is a bad idea under the current US model of ownership and operation by private utilities.

256 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 8:44:18pm

See; TEPCO

257 EPR-radar  Nov 18, 2014 8:45:54pm

re: #256 Varek Raith

See; TEPCO

At least TEPCO didn’t cause their disaster, unlike the jokers running Three Mile Island.

258 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:45:58pm

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I’m all for them when I look at the actual casualties of coal as compared to actual casualties of nuclear. Even in private hands that’s the record. Very few injuries or deaths as opposed to many, and ongoing. And that ignores the folks downwind. Nobody shut off a nuclear plant to clear the air for an intentional conference.

259 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:48:37pm

re: #235 Indy GOP Refugee

That would be why I’m rather hard on the critics of developing nuclear energy, those that also oppose the rest of the alternatives in so many instances. I think the only one not beset by critics and skeptics might be geothermal. But Yosemite seems a hell of a place for a power plant.

You mean Yellowstone? Kinda remote…

260 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 8:49:29pm

re: #259 funky chicken

You mean Yellowstone? Kinda remote…

Hah, right my bad. Desert Hot Springs maybe?

261 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 8:50:13pm

re: #258 Indy GOP Refugee

I’m all for them when I look at the actual casualties of coal as compared to actual casualties of nuclear. Even in private hands that’s the record. Very few injuries or deaths as opposed to many, and ongoing. And that ignores the folks downwind. Nobody shut off a nuclear plant to clear the air for an intentional conference.

Then can I interest you in a vacation to Pripyat?

262 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 8:51:11pm
263 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 8:52:49pm

re: #257 EPR-radar

At least TEPCO didn’t cause their disaster, unlike the jokers running Three Mile Island.

So much of what happened was made worse by TEPCO’s ineptitude and cost cutting.

264 lostlakehiker  Nov 18, 2014 8:57:55pm

re: #7 Lidane

Keystone XL is stupid. We get zero benefit from it. It doesn’t create jobs, it poisons water supplies, ruins the environment, and none of that oil ends up here anyway.

The longer it keeps going down in flames the better.

Huh? It may be a net negative when the climate effects are factored in, assuming that the oil would never have been shipped at all if not by Keystone. But there are jobs for pipeline workers, jobs at refineries, and revenue to be had. If we sell refined petroleum products abroad, at least that serves to narrow our worrisome trade deficit. If it were all bad and no good anywhere, it would have no friends.

265 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 8:58:49pm

re: #260 Indy GOP Refugee

Maybe that would work. I share your frustration with the environmentalist extremists. I supported the solar farm project in the Mojave, and was pretty disgusted by the complaints that it would compromise habitat for the desert tortoise. I’ve driven through there, and if there’s one thing that region has it’s plenty of habitat for the desert tortoise.

266 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 9:00:40pm
The rate of fatal injuries in the coal mining industry in 2007 was 24.8 per 100,000 fulltime equivalent workers, nearly six times the rate for all private industry.

re: #261 Targetpractice

Then can I interest you in a vacation to Pripyat?

Not really any more dangerous to me than a collapsing coal mine tunnel. And a nuclear plant would be a lot safer to spend time in than than any coal mine. Coal takes lives even when all goes well. Nuclear, not nearly so much.

267 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 9:00:58pm

And I’m out. Good night all.

268 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 18, 2014 9:02:41pm

re: #267 funky chicken

And I’m out. Good night all.

Me too. Stay sharp folks, Politics are the natural enemies of facts.

269 funky chicken  Nov 18, 2014 9:02:41pm

re: #261 Targetpractice

Then can I interest you in a vacation to Pripyat?

I actually would love to have the opportunity to visit Chernobyl some time.

Good night for real now :).

270 lostlakehiker  Nov 18, 2014 9:04:57pm

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I’d be all for nuclear power plants if they were socialized and the US Navy ran them. But a private industry that finds it utterly impossible to purchase accident insurance on the free market should take that fact as something of a hint.

That’s because every birth defect within a thousand miles will be blamed on the 4 millirems exposure. Nuclear has a much better safety record than coal or even oil.

271 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 9:10:49pm

re: #270 lostlakehiker

en.wikipedia.org

272 BeachDem  Nov 18, 2014 9:10:59pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

i mentioned that because it was in Balko’s article and it strikes me as a fact that will make winning a civil rights suit harder. The defense will point to who is charge of the towns engaging in these shakedowns and say “This is SOP for people of both races. How can it be a race-based civil rights violation?”

I was NOT trying to use a magical balance fairy, or blame black people as a race for anything.

Late to the party, but just wanted to say, I went back through Balko’s article, and though there are 90 municipalities in St. Louis County, and more in the surrounding counties. the only two mentions of towns with black participation are Berkeley and Pine Lawn.

About Berkeley:

The town of Berkeley, for example, has unusually high black political participation…Currently, Berkeley has an all-black city council, a black mayor, a black city manager, and majority-black police force…And yet this town of 9,000 people still issued 10,452 traffic citations last year, and another 1,271 non-traffic ordinance violations. The town’s municipal court raised over $1 million in fines and fees, or about $111 per resident. The town issued 5,504 arrest warrants last year, and has another 13,436 arrest warrants outstanding. Those are modest numbers for St. Louis County, but they’re high for just about anywhere else.

“We’ve tried to rely on revenue from our municipal court as little as possible,” says Berkeley Mayor Theodore Hoskins. “We emphasize that traffic laws and ordinances are about public safety, not about revenue.” But there’s a cost to that. The town ran a $1.3 million deficit last year, and recently considered dissolving its police department to save money.

Doesn’t sound nearly as heinous as the other places described.

About Pine Lawn:

Blacks make up 96 percent of Pine Lawn’s 3,216 residents and have been well represented among the town’s elected officials…

Doesn’t really go into detail about that representation.

Pine Lawn has been plagued by incompetence, corruption, and infighting among its public officials. A 2011 report (PDF) by the Missouri State Auditor found that in violation of state law, the town “does not have written contracts with some of its service providers, such as attorneys, payroll services, and collectors of electronic fines and court costs.” The audit found that the town regularly violates the state’s open meetings law, and paid salary advances to aldermen and other city employees, also in violation of state law.

Pine Lawn also has a “baggy pants” ordinance, so I’m guessing the PTB are pretty hostile toward black youths. There are plenty of ways to go after that town, from civil rights to law-breaking.

273 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 9:13:17pm

A whole seasons worth of snow falling in one 24 hour period along the southeastern shores of Lake Erie.

Utah’s Little Cottonwood Canyon experiences lake effect snow. In the winter of 2010-11 the Alta Ski Area recorded almost 900 inches of snow, a record. Alta has been open since 1939.

Snow gods giveth and taketh away. The interior of the United States has seen a see saw of bountiful winters and desperately dry winters, whereas the Sierra Nevada and the Northeast (with the exceptions of Nor’Easters and Superstorm Sandy, where they were skiing deep powder in West Virginia) have seen desperately dry winters.

Climate affects skiers directly. Greenhouse gases need to be curbed and alternative sources need to be cultivated otherwise there could be a permanence of no snow at places like Squaw Valley and Kitzbühel.

274 Varek Raith  Nov 18, 2014 9:14:24pm

Total clean up costs so far for Fukushima; $105 billion.

275 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 9:14:48pm

re: #270 lostlakehiker

That’s because every birth defect within a thousand miles will be blamed on the 4 millirems exposure. Nuclear has a much better safety record than coal or even oil.

How many coal or oil powered plants have had accidents rendering 1,000 square miles uninhabitable?

276 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 9:14:55pm

No matter how much I try, I just can’t enjoy Civ: Beyond Earth.

277 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 9:16:54pm

re: #276 Kragar

No matter how much I try, I just can’t enjoy Civ: Beyond Earth.

Just not that interesting?

278 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 9:18:59pm

re: #277 Targetpractice

Just not that interesting?

Its basically a severely stripped down Civ V without as many options and different graphics

279 Targetpractice  Nov 18, 2014 9:22:11pm

re: #278 Kragar

Its basically a severely stripped down Civ V without as many options and different graphics

From what I’ve seen of it, it has some good ideas, but not enough to differentiate it from Civ V to really justify the cost. Might have been better as another expansion, ala “Beyond the Stars” than a stand-alone game. Just doesn’t have the appeal that Alpha Centauri once had.

280 Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 18, 2014 9:24:47pm

re: #278 Kragar

Its basically a severely stripped down Civ V without as many options and different graphics

So, in other words, a cash grab?

281 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 9:25:00pm

re: #279 Targetpractice

From what I’ve seen of it, it has some good ideas, but not enough to differentiate it from Civ V to really justify the cost. Might have been better as another expansion, ala “Beyond the Stars” than a stand-alone game. Just doesn’t have the appeal that Alpha Centauri once had.

Yeah, I was thinking they expanded on AC and came up with a next gen game. Instead, they took a giant step backwards.

Very disappointing over all.

282 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 9:25:17pm

re: #280 Eclectic Cyborg

So, in other words, a cash grab?

Pretty much feels that way.

283 BeachDem  Nov 18, 2014 9:26:33pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

They’re afraid of riots breaking out. Such a fear may not be wholly rational, but it is real.

284 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 9:35:24pm
285 freetoken  Nov 18, 2014 9:44:11pm

re: #284 teleskiguy

You do realize that The Doctor spent an entire series looking for the Key to Time, which is probably on the set of keys to the universe.

286 Mich-again  Nov 18, 2014 9:56:02pm

re: #274 Varek Raith

Total clean up costs so far for Fukushima; $105 billion.

Total cost of destruction; Unmeasurable

287 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 18, 2014 10:02:23pm

re: #285 freetoken

You do realize that The Doctor spent an entire series looking for the Key to Time, which is probably on the set of keys to the universe.

I have a key on my desk and I can’t remember what it’s for. Maybe that’s it!

288 Dr Lizardo  Nov 18, 2014 10:03:18pm

Meanwhile, in Portland, OR:

Juggalos vs. Gentrification in North Portland

KOIN 6 reports:

Fourteen businesses in north Portland received targeted, threatening messages last Thursday from a group calling for them to leave the neighborhood.

“You have been targeted by the juggalo family to get … out,” the notice reads. “Vacate or … our …”

…The notices were plastered on front doors and store fronts along N Williams St. and N. Shaver St.

Is there nothing Juggalos can’t teach us? //

Juggalos. LOLOLOL

I have no problem with ICP fans; a couple of my former students were big fans, though I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call them Juggalos - or in their case, Juggalettes.

blogtown.portlandmercury.com

290 simoom  Nov 18, 2014 11:11:08pm

The surveillance reform bill also was filibustered. Perhaps this will finally puncture the libertarian & liberal fantasy that there’s a bipartisan coalition interested in measured reform.

Here’s the cloture vote breakdown:

govtrack.us

The two independents voted Yea, as did all Dems save Bill Nelson. Four Republicans also voted Yea: Lisa Murkowski, Dean Heller, Mike Lee and Ted Cruz.

The usual suspects naturally were unhappy. As the vote neared, GG started out attacking his and Snowden’s detractors:

(Once again he fails to acknowledge that many that see him as a shoddy advocacy “journalist” and Snowden as a criminal have zero issue with reform efforts.)

Greenwald then became increasingly irritated with the floor debate:

I’m looking forward to seeing how Conor Friedersdorf spins this, since his hero Sen. Paul voted against too. Paul gave a reason that he felt the legislation didn’t go far enough, but it’s hard to see how he could possibly think the incoming Congress would bring a result more to his (claimed) liking.

291 Kragar  Nov 18, 2014 11:29:28pm

re: #290 simoom

292 BeachDem  Nov 18, 2014 11:31:16pm

re: #290 simoom

Well, Glenn seems to have really worked himself into a lather.

Great recap—thanks. If you know:

Per his first tweet—who are these Pro NSA liberals? (I consider myself an anti-Snowden/anti-Greenwald/anti-theft-of-classified-documents- by-some-dork liberal, but not particularly pro NSA)

And per his last tweet—what were the tea-party GOPers screaming then?

293 simoom  Nov 18, 2014 11:37:22pm

re: #292 BeachDem

Per his first tweet—who are these Pro NSA liberals? (I consider myself an anti-Snowden/anti-Greenwald/anti-theft-of-classified-documents- by-some-dork liberal, but not particularly pro NSA)

They’re a strawman army Greenwald often does battle with.

And per his last tweet—what were the tea-party GOPers screaming then?

I think it’s a “no true scotsman” sort of thing. My impression is that he’s defined the Tea Party so narrowly it now only includes the four GOP “aye” votes (since he’s long been invested in the narrative that the Tea Party supports his agenda).

294 Viscous Obama  Nov 18, 2014 11:38:45pm

Lisa Murkowski is now the Tea Party

295 teleskiguy  Nov 18, 2014 11:45:02pm
296 BeachDem  Nov 18, 2014 11:50:50pm

re: #293 simoom

They’re a strawman army Greenwald often does battle with.

I think it’s a “no true scotsman” sort of thing. My impression is that he’s defined the Tea Party so narrowly it now only includes the four GOP “aye” votes (since he’s long been invested in the narrative that the Tea Party supports his agenda).

Thanks—I’m not that fluent in Greenwaldian to be able to translate it so clearly into English. Amazing that he’d think of Murkowski as a teabagger.

297 teleskiguy  Nov 19, 2014 12:00:23am

Oh jeez. Patton Oswalt drops this on Twitter midnight Pacific time.

298 freetoken  Nov 19, 2014 12:06:47am
299 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 4:21:29am

re: #43 teleskiguy

My state’s senators split. Udall nay, Bennet yay.

When the new congress gets seated 3 January I have a bad feeling our Democratic members will be pushed more to the right now that the Rednecks hold both houses.

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

I don’t appreciate being called a ‘redneck’. I don’t speak about Democrats in such disrespectful terms, kindly remain civil.

Nice fake outrage. Remind us, when were you elected to the House or Senate?

300 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 4:25:22am
301 Bubblehead II  Nov 19, 2014 5:07:54am

Morning Lizards. Is this the beginning of the end of Gov. Butch “the gay” Otter?

Crony capitalism at its best.

302 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 5:10:43am

re: #290 simoom

303 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 5:13:48am

re: #302 Dr. Matt

HURR HURR Y U NOT APPRECIATE MY SCATHING SARCASM & HYPERBOLE R U TEH STUPIDS U SLOBBERING OBAMABOT????????

304 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 5:33:51am

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I’d be all for nuclear power plants if they were socialized and the US Navy ran them. But a private industry that finds it utterly impossible to purchase accident insurance on the free market should take that fact as something of a hint.

There is an artificial liability cap on nuclear plants which is ridiculously low: only around $500 million. In comparison, Chernobyl cost at least $ 20 billion.

If they actually had to pay for full coverage, it would be cheaper for them to have their nuclear engineers powering stationary bicycles…

305 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 5:35:28am

Missing Miss Honduras-World found dead. 4 held as suspects of double murder of Maria Jose Alvarado and her sister.
bbc.com

306 bill d  Nov 19, 2014 5:40:05am

On the bright side, it appears that those obnoxious, dog whistle racist, wingnut, chain emails claiming to be written by Bill Cosby have stopped.

307 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 5:48:00am

re: #306 bill d

On the bright side, it appears that those obnoxious, dog whistle racist, wingnut, chain emails claiming to be written by Bill Cosby have stopped.

I never see those things, because Google Mail screens them out.

308 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 5:49:31am

re: #302 Dr. Matt

Wouldn’t crusading journo Greenwald’s time be better spent righting more proximate wrongs?
Human Rights Watch:

Brazil is among the most influential democracies in regional and global affairs, and in recent years has emerged as an increasingly important voice in debates over international responses to human rights problems. At home, the country continues to confront serious human rights challenges, including unlawful police killings, the use of torture, prison overcrowding, and ongoing impunity for abuses committed during the country’s military rule (1964-1985).

Just sayin’.

309 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 5:52:30am

re: #308 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Wouldn’t crusading journo Greenwald’s time be better spent righting more proximate wrongs?
Human Rights Watch:

Just sayin’.

HURR HURR I TEH GREAT & MIGHTY GREENWALD WILL DECIDE ALL TEH SUBJECT MATTERS OF TEH MOAST IMPORTANT JOURNALISMS & NOT U SLOBBERING OBAMABOT!!!1!!!!!!

310 bill d  Nov 19, 2014 5:57:11am

re: #308 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Wouldn’t crusading journo Greenwald’s time be better spent righting more proximate wrongs?
Human Rights Watch:

Just sayin’.

Glenn has no time for that, between backstabbing everyone at First Look Media and every elected Dem and the entire country of Israel, he is a very busy man.

311 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 5:57:23am

Glenn Greenwald is courageously refusing to join in the rote condemnation of yesterday’s murders. Probs because he thinks those Juice totally had it coming.

312 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 5:59:29am

GG is just another agenda-driven, RW-libertarian, political hack pretending to be a journalist. It’s just a matter of town before he completely sells out to RedState or Town Hall.

313 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 5:59:57am

Glenn courageously retweeted this:
HURR HURR I UTTERLY CONDEMN TEH JUICE WHO TOTALLY HAD THIS COMING!!!!1!!!!!

314 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:01:27am

I’ve concluded that I could give a rat’s ass about whatever Greenwald thinks.

315 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:04:34am

re: #306 bill d

On the bright side, it appears that those obnoxious, dog whistle racist, wingnut, chain emails claiming to be written by Bill Cosby have stopped.

That’s a relief. Those get old.

316 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 6:09:43am

re: #257 EPR-radar

At least TEPCO didn’t cause their disaster, unlike the jokers running Three Mile Island.

TEPCO may not have been the proximate cause of the Fukushima disaster - it was the massive Tohoku quake and subsequent tsunami - but their actions compounded the massive disaster from the tsunami with decisions taken decades earlier, negligence and other malfeasance.

The problem is that TEPCO built the reactors at a lower elevation than they should have, ignored the safety suggestions to build a sea wall higher than the one that it had, that it chose to put the backup generators on ground level, instead of mounted in a position that would protect it from a potential tsunami, and then delayed in alerting the government and necessary authorities that the situation at the various reactors was dire.

And the company still drags its feet on remediating and containing the radioactive wastes from the damaged reactors.

317 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 6:10:32am

re: #314 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality

I’ve concluded that I could give a rat’s ass about whatever Greenwald thinks.

That’s more than I’d be willing to give.

318 bill d  Nov 19, 2014 6:14:11am

re: #314 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality

I’ve concluded that I could give a rat’s ass about whatever Greenwald thinks.

A lot of people seem to be feeling that way.

Seems that his star is fading as people move on from him screaming the same stuff over and over again from his diamond encrusted soapbox,

319 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:14:14am

Greenwald is like that person that you always knew growing up that just has to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. Guy can’t even bring himself to condemn a terrorist attack because he like the type I’m talking about just relishes in being a complete dick. I really don’t give the guy much thought honestly.

320 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:17:45am

re: #318 bill d

A lot of people seem to be feeling that way.

Seems that his star is fading as people move on from him screaming the same stuff over and over again from his diamond encrusted soapbox,

A loud, one-trick pony.

321 Bubblehead II  Nov 19, 2014 6:17:51am

Morning VB. Do you have your morning Tweet dump automated or are you just that fast? :-)

322 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 6:18:35am

Glenn is not going to come right out and say THOSE JUICE TOTES DESERVED TO BE CHOPPED UP but he will retweet the dog whistles of others.

323 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 6:19:54am

re: #321 Bubblehead II

Morning VB. Do you have your morning Tweet dump automated or are you just that fast? :-)

It’s automated, but I can change the order if I feel like it.

Tweetdeck has a limit on tweet dumps that I haven’t figured out how to get around, but Janie apparently has.

324 Jenner7  Nov 19, 2014 6:20:59am

re: #302 Dr. Matt

Ask him why the GOP were pro NSA during Bush?? What a disingenuous butthole.

325 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:23:04am

re: #324 Jenner7

Ask him why the GOP were pro NSA during Bush?? What a disingenuous butthole.

Not just pro-NSA but dismissing any critic of the NSA. Hell, he himself was very dismissive towards any critic of Bush’s FP.

326 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 6:23:57am
327 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 6:26:42am
328 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:29:54am
329 Jenner7  Nov 19, 2014 6:30:40am
330 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 6:30:51am

re: #328 Dr. Matt

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

331 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 6:31:51am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

It’s like foreplay before the wingnuts explode in ragegasm.

332 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 6:32:21am

re: #331 Dr Lizardo

It’s like foreplay before the wingnuts explode in ragegasm.

The ragegasm explosion has already exploded.

333 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:32:24am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

They’re still prepping for his seizing all their guns and shipping them off to FEMA camps.

334 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 6:32:29am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

Maybe Obama should enter the Press Room wearing a Reagan mask when he makes the announcement of that EO.
///

335 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:34:58am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

Has Obama confiscated a single firearm?

Has Obama unveiled a single guillotine?

Has Obama opened a single FEMA camp?

Has Obama cancelled a single election?

Has Obama visited a Mosque on the 4th of July?

Has Obama given one stand-down order?

Has Obama apologized once for America?

….fake outrage, the other, OTHER white meat…..

336 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 6:36:15am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

Unless he grants individual presidential pardons to each and every undocumented immigrant there isn’t much that he can do. Both the Reagan and G. H. W. Bush amnesties were the result of acts of Congress. Obama can tweak enforcement policies but that’s about it. He can’t amnesty by fiat.

337 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 6:36:26am

Heh. And not just in Ferguson.

Far too many police departments have this same metric:

338 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:37:03am

re: #330 Vicious Piebola

Has Obama even issued an amnesty order? All the wingnuts are freaking out about it before it has even happened.

Of course not. But Obama hasn’t proposed banning gun ownershpi either yet they’re all convinced Obama is out for their guns.

339 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:38:25am

re: #329 Jenner7

[Embedded content]

Yeah they’re being so one side, right Senator McCaskill?

340 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 6:38:50am

NO RACISM HERE, DEMOCRATS IS TEH REAL RACISTS!!!!!
(Tweet not embedded here for obvious reasons. Click at your own risk.)

And here’s the person’s Twitter bio:

Christian ~ Conservative ~ Tea Party ~ Thinks liberal DemocRATS Are Morons ~ In GOD I Trust ~ God Bless America!! #TCOT #SWFL #PATRIOT #TGDN ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Florida

341 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 6:39:27am
342 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 6:40:55am
343 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:42:25am

I like how the morons always say “Any day now Obama is going to go Hitler on us.” Yeah because Hitler and any other dictator would have totally let stand opposition parties participating let alone winning elections. But as we’ve gotten at before, these people got a serious case of Wewanttobevictimsitis.

344 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:42:36am

re: #340 Vicious Piebola

Anyone other than a Greek scholar who includes ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ in his Twitter profile can immediately be discounted as a nutter.

345 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 6:42:49am

Drudge sirens that Administration will be issuing order on immigration on Friday. Cue calls for impeachment… aw heck, the right wing is already demanding impeachment for presidenting while black, so this is just going to be more of the same.

The ODS is far stronger than any BDS or any other hatred towards recent presidents by the opposition party - combined.

The president using powers explicitly granted to him under the constitution is now seen as an impeachable offense. The president using powers that other presidents have used (like executive orders or signing statements) is impeachable, even though he’s used those powers far more infrequently than his predecessors. He’s even granted fewer pardons or commutations of sentences than his predecessors, so if there’s a flurry of pardons before he leaves office, there will be cries of impeachment too.

It’s batcrap insanity, and the media keeps playing MBF on what’s being said/felt by the opposition, to say nothing of ignoring the context of what has actually been done.

346 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 6:44:25am
347 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:45:20am

Damn you, Bloomberg TV. Showing Pizza Hut pies to me when I can’t possibly have them right away.

Betty Liu is interviewing the incoming CEO of Pizza Hut about their new menu items. And he brought samples.

348 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 6:49:51am

re: #347 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality

Damn you, Bloomberg TV. Showing Pizza Hut pies to me when I can’t possibly have them right away.

Betty Liu is interviewing the incoming CEO of Pizza Hut about their new menu items. And he brought samples.

I like their sodium and fat pizza with the high fructose corn syrup sauce.

349 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:50:14am

re: #345 lawhawk

Drudge sirens that Administration will be issuing order on immigration on Friday. Cue calls for impeachment… aw heck, the right wing is already demanding impeachment for presidenting while black, so this is just going to be more of the same.

The ODS is far stronger than any BDS or any other hatred towards recent presidents by the opposition party - combined.

The president using powers explicitly granted to him under the constitution is now seen as an impeachable offense. The president using powers that other presidents have used (like executive orders or signing statements) is impeachable, even though he’s used those powers far more infrequently than his predecessors. He’s even granted fewer pardons or commutations of sentences than his predecessors, so if there’s a flurry of pardons before he leaves office, there will be cries of impeachment too.

It’s batcrap insanity, and the media keeps playing MBF on what’s being said/felt by the opposition, to say nothing of ignoring the context of what has actually been done.

Been saying this for a while. The media is a huge part of the problem. They love MBFing because they’re afraid if they tell the truth which is the GOP and right pretty much by default any Obama policy simply because it’s an Obama policy, they’ll be called liberal. And CNN seems to want to be Fox News lite.

350 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:50:28am

Undeniable proof that RWNJ-baggers will oppose ANYTHING that the President supports:

The Senate on Tuesday blocked a bill to end bulk collection of American phone records by the National Security Agency, dealing a blow to President Barack Obama’s primary proposal to rein in domestic surveillance.

351 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:50:35am

re: #348 darthstar

I like their sodium and fat pizza with the high fructose corn syrup sauce.

Pizza Hut sells actual pizza right now?

352 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:51:05am

re: #350 Dr. Matt

Undeniable proof that RWNJ-baggers will oppose ANYTHING that the President supports:

So any words to that Glenn or is your head to far up the GOP senate’s asshole?

353 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:51:37am

re: #351 HappyWarrior

Pizza Hut sells actual pizza right now?

It’s as much “pizza” as a hot dog is “meat”.

354 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:51:52am

re: #351 HappyWarrior

Pizza Hut sells actual pizza right now?

Allegedly. In any event, their outlets in China sell a more upscale menu than in the US.

355 ObserverArt  Nov 19, 2014 6:52:38am

Morning.

Well I read through most of this thread from last night and this morning and now I have a headache.

I think with the elections, our new congress, world events, the weather, energy policy, etc. I am now in a state of confusion.

So, I am going to log out, try to get something done and hope I can find something that makes some damn sense.

I do wonder though, how much energy could be created by wind or solar if the same amount of money spent on all the politics and the actual costs of building the Keystone pipeline were spent on adding more infrastructure of both the alternatives? Part 2 - how much advancement in man made bio fuels could be accomplished if the same money was spent on research?

To me Keystone just looks like laziness in that the energy companies would rather keep digging and drilling for whatever oil they can get out of the turnip to add to their already well-oiled machine. That says to me tar sand oil is still way more profitable because of that infrastructure than having to actually spend some money to find alternatives.

America used to be better than that. We were the leaders in research. Hell, we discovered oil and how it could be used. Now American is all about the bucks. And that wouldn’t be so damn bad if it actually got spread around instead of fattening the already fat.

Sigh. See you all later. My headache just got worse.

356 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 6:53:21am

re: #353 Dr. Matt

It’s as much “pizza” as a hot dog is “meat”.

Look on the bright side.

Czechs put corn on their pizza.

357 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:54:40am

re: #356 Dr Lizardo

Look on the bright side.

Czechs put corn on their pizza.

corn on pizza? Kafka would be proud of this weirdness.

358 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:55:07am

re: #354 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality

Allegedly. In any event, their outlets in China sell a more upscale menu than in the US.

Well I hope the pizza itself is better. I never liked their pizza even as a kid.

359 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:55:44am

re: #353 Dr. Matt

It’s as much “pizza” as a hot dog is “meat”.

I’ve got like zero Italian in me and even I know that calling Pizza Hut’s “pizza” should be a capital crime.

360 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 6:56:24am

re: #358 HappyWarrior

Well I hope the pizza itself is better. I never liked their pizza even as a kid.

I eat pizza so infrequently now that I appreciate P’Hut’s offerings when I have a chance to sample it. I’m hoping to find some decent ‘za when I visit Hong Kong next month.

361 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 6:56:28am

re: #357 HappyWarrior

corn on pizza? Kafka would be proud of this weirdness.

Does the addition of corn as a topping on Czech pizza mean that the pizza has undergone a metamorphosis?

362 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 6:56:35am

re: #357 HappyWarrior

corn on pizza? Kafka would be proud of this weirdness.

Yep. Very strange, at least to me. I have to really look when I wanna find a good pizza. I have found it here and there, and here in Ostrava, there is a pizza joint that’s good.

But Czechs sure can be weird sometimes.

363 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:57:32am

re: #356 Dr Lizardo

Look on the bright side.

Czechs put corn on their pizza.

Call me ‘weird’, but I’d like to try that.

I had a cheeseburger pizza recently. It literally tasted like a cheeseburger. It had ground beef, onions, toms, ketchup AND mustard with a side of crispy lettuce to drape on top. It was quite good.

364 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 6:58:46am

re: #361 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Does the addition of corn as a topping on Czech pizza mean that the pizza has undergone a metamorphosis?

I don’t know, the inventor of corn pizza should be put on a trial

365 Dr. Matt  Nov 19, 2014 6:59:35am

Little RWNJ heads will be a ‘sploding….

366 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 7:00:12am

re: #362 Dr Lizardo

Yep. Very strange, at least to me. I have to really look when I wanna find a good pizza. I have found it here and there, and here in Ostrava, there is a pizza joint that’s good.

But Czechs sure can be weird sometimes.

All it takes is one good place and you’re set. There was a great delivery place when I was at college. But yeah, that’s just weird to me. Not gross. Just corn as a pizza topping just sounds weird.

367 Bubblehead II  Nov 19, 2014 7:00:48am

re: #346 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Might be a wee bit late.

368 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 7:02:13am

re: #364 HappyWarrior

I don’t know, the inventor of corn pizza should be put on a trial

But only if he is not told why he was arrested or being tried for.

369 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 7:03:25am

re: #365 Dr. Matt

Little RWNJ heads will be a ‘sploding….

[Embedded content]

The heterosexual thing to do is fire on Fort Sumter.

370 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 7:04:05am

This little gem about Kafka, Prague and the Czech Republic.

Youtube Video

BBL.

371 wheat-dogghazi-bola-trality  Nov 19, 2014 7:04:25am

re: #366 HappyWarrior

All it takes is one good place and you’re set. There was a great delivery place when I was at college. But yeah, that’s just weird to me. Not gross. Just corn as a pizza topping just sounds weird.

KFC in China by default serves a small cup of corn salad with their sandwiches. You have to specifically ask for french fries (薯条 shu tiao).

372 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 7:06:57am

re: #370 Dr Lizardo

This little gem about Kafka, Prague and the Czech Republic.

[Embedded content]

Video

BBL.

That was great.

373 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 7:07:54am

re: #370 Dr Lizardo

This little gem about Kafka, Prague and the Czech Republic.

[Embedded content]

Video

BBL.

Thank you!

374 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 7:10:36am

re: #338 HappyWarrior

Of course not. But Obama hasn’t proposed banning gun ownershpi either yet they’re all convinced Obama is out for their guns.

Trying to lull us into a false sense of security, but our outrage keeps us vigilant!

375 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 7:13:22am

re: #364 HappyWarrior

I don’t know, the inventor of corn pizza should be put on a trial

Actually, corn could work well on pizza. I could see a BBQ chicken and corn pizza with a bechamel sauce on a corn flour crust being quite tasty indeed.

376 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 7:13:28am

re: #356 Dr Lizardo

Look on the bright side.

Czechs put corn on their pizza.

I assume they imported that abomination from Germany, where they serve a “Pizza Mexicana” with chicken, corn and bits of bell pepper (which is what they put in anything they call “Mexicana”)

377 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 7:16:21am

re: #375 darthstar

Actually, corn could work well on pizza. I could see a BBQ chicken and corn pizza with a bechamel sauce on a corn flour crust being quite tasty indeed.

It could. But I wanted to play with the Kafka theme after Higgs’s metamorphosis comment.

378 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 7:55:18am

Corn pizza killed the thread

379 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:00:15am

You know what’s even more scary than a theater full of unarmed people against a lone gunman? A theater full of open carry gun-fuckers shooting wildly at each other in the dark.

380 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:00:20am

Man I know it’s a cold morning but did everyone freeze to death?

381 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:02:19am

re: #379 Vicious Piebola

You know what’s even more scary than a theater full of unarmed people against a lone gunman? A theater full of open carry gun-fuckers shooting wildly at each other in the dark.

[Embedded content]

Too bad no one’s been disarmed. Sigh. They just don’t get it. They just don’t fucking get it. Hell I’d like them to explain that if Obama is so “tyrannica” why gun ownership has increased heavily under his presidency and furthermore why they only worry about a “tyrannical” government with a Democrat in the WH. These people were the same ones mocking us when we criticized the excesses of the Bush admin but now they’re worried about “tyranny.” What a fucking joke. Go cry to someone who gives a damn gunfuckers.

382 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 8:02:25am

re: #379 Vicious Piebola

You know what’s even more scary than a theater full of unarmed people against a lone gunman? A theater full of open carry gun-fuckers shooting wildly at each other in the dark.

How about a nation of gun nuts firing at everything they dislike?

383 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:05:59am

The sad fact is the guy they worship Reagan has more of a “gun grabber” record than Obama does but let’s delude ourselves into thinking Obama wants to take our guns and buy even more guns. Cowards need arsenals to feel safe.

384 Bubblehead II  Nov 19, 2014 8:06:46am

re: #380 HappyWarrior

Man I know it’s a cold morning but did everyone freeze to death?

Nah, the intertubes just froze up is all.

385 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:07:11am

And frankly don’t tell me you’re a patriot if you actually think our government is going to go Nazi Germany on you gunfuckers. Really, you want to be a gun fetishist, that’s fine but don’t tell me that you love our country and yet think our government is going to turn into one of the worst tyrannies in history.

386 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 8:07:34am

re: #383 HappyWarrior

The sad fact is the guy they worship Reagan has more of a “gun grabber” record than Obama does but let’s delude ourselves into thinking Obama wants to take our guns and buy even more guns. Cowards need arsenals to feel safe.

But note that if Obama was rumored to be seizing books there wouldn’t be a run on Barnes & Noble.

Hmm… I expect though there have been nut posts about Obama banning or seizing all the Bibles.
///

387 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:07:58am

re: #384 Bubblehead II

Nah, the intertubes just froze up is all.

Series of tubes! Seriously though that’s 19 degrees colder than it is here. Going to have to go out tonight though as it’s the first basketball practice of the season.

388 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:10:26am

re: #386 Feline Fearless Leader

But note that if Obama was rumored to be seizing books there wouldn’t be a run on Barnes & Noble.

Hmm… I expect though there have been nut posts about Obama banning or seizing all the Bibles.
///

Heh probably. They believe Obama’s going to implement Shariah law even though he’s probably one of our most secular minded presidents. You know it’s telling that you always hear about “tyrannical federal government” when a Democrat resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. You never heard these people worrying when Bush was president. Gee, I wonder why.

389 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 8:10:28am

So, lots of reports about people in the STL area buying up guns ahead of a possible decision by the grand jury on whether to indict Wilson. Notoriously missing is who exactly is buying up all these guns.

Also buying up tons of guns? The very police departments who have engaged in excessive force and shooting unarmed black men in the first place. Both the Ferguson PD and the STL County police have both bought more riot gear, even as their very actions precipitated rioting.

A breakdown of the department’s spending since August on equipment intended for the policing of crowds and civil disobedience, which totals $172,669, was obtained by the Guardian from the county force.

Since the height of the protests, the department has spent almost $25,000 buying 650 teargas grenades, smoke-and-gas grenades, smoke canisters and “hornets nest” CS sting grenades, which shoot out dozens of rubber bullets and a powdered chemical agent upon detonation.

It has spent a further $18,000 on 1,500 “beanbag rounds” and 6,000 pepper balls, paintball-style projectiles that explode with a chemical irritant when they strike a protester. The department uses LiveX branded pepper balls, which are billed as ten times hotter than standard pepper rounds.

Another $77,500 has been spent on 235 riot gear helmets, 135 shields, 25 batons and 60 sets of shin guards, and other “uniform items”. A further $2,300 was used to buy another 2,000 sets of the plastic handcuffs that have been used to detain dozens of demonstrators plucked from crowds on West Florissant Avenue.

The county police was repeatedly noted as violating civil rights of peaceful protesters, including enforcing an unconstitutional 5 second rule prohibiting stopping, and for aiming loaded firearms at peaceful protesters, to say nothing of obscuring or not wearing name badges.

The County police also says that they’ve got $50,000 set aside to repair vehicles damaged from prior protest/rioting, which is a far cry from dozens of destroyed vehicles claimed by Hoft, Chuckles, and others. In fact, the STL police wont be repairing those vehicles until after the “unrest is over”. That’s perhaps far more telling about how limited the damage truly was.

UPDATE:

And why is it that most of the best reporting and details are coming not from local papers/media outlets, but The Guardian on this? Domestic media outlets have ignored many of the key details, facts, and instead focus on the sensational.

390 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:11:08am

re: #379 Vicious Piebola

You know what’s even more scary than a theater full of unarmed people against a lone gunman? A theater full of open carry gun-fuckers shooting wildly at each other in the dark.

[Embedded content]

It will happen sooner or later. One shot will be fired for some reason and the rest of them will shoot at the noise or the muzzle flashes. The gun humpers will insist that the ensuing carnage was caused by a liberal provocateur.

391 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:11:47am

re: #390 Higgs Boson’s Mate

It will happen sooner or later. One shot will be fired for some reason and the rest of them will shoot at the noise or the muzzle flashes. The gun humpers will insist that the ensuing carnage was caused by a liberal provocateur.

or blame liberals for “hatred.”

392 Amory Blaine  Nov 19, 2014 8:13:09am

Check out this scale model excavator.

Youtube Video

393 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 8:14:27am

re: #390 Higgs Boson’s Mate

It will happen sooner or later. One shot will be fired for some reason and the rest of them will shoot at the noise or the muzzle flashes. The gun humpers will insist that the ensuing carnage was caused by a liberal provocateur.

False flag operation. Also sounds amazingly like Jason tossing a stone amidst the warriors who sprouted from the sown dragon teeth.

394 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 8:16:45am

re: #376 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

I assume they imported that abomination from Germany, where they serve a “Pizza Mexicana” with chicken, corn and bits of bell pepper (which is what they put in anything they call “Mexicana”)

Maybe they did…..the pizza here with corn on it is usually with ham; there’s no bell peppers or anything else on it, so it could just be some bizarre Czech creation.

395 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:16:49am

re: #393 Feline Fearless Leader

False flag operation. Also sounds amazingly like Jason tossing a stone amidst the warriors who sprouted from the sown dragon teeth.

Nailed it. They were just a bunch of responsible gun owners standing their ground in the dark.

396 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:17:41am

re: #394 Dr Lizardo

Maybe they did…..the pizza here with corn on it usually with ham; there’s no bell peppers or anything else on it, so it could just be some bizarre Czech creation.

Well at least the beer you can have with it would be good beer. The Czechs do beer right. Man, I’d love to go back there. Maybe some day.

397 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 8:18:44am

re: #396 HappyWarrior

Well at least the beer you can have with it would be good beer. The Czechs do beer right. Man, I’d love to go back there. Maybe some day.

I consider Czech beer perhaps the best in the world. There’s a beer called Eggenberg, brewed in Cesky Krumlov, that’s fantastic.

398 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:19:07am

I’d believe in the “responsible gun owner” honestly if I didn’t read about kids accidentally shooting themselves with Dad’s gun, morons showing off getting themselves killed, etc. Now maybe we do need more gun safety but the gun culture, read obsession with guns, and idea that being a gunowner makes you more of a man and or American is part of that problem.

399 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:20:36am

re: #397 Dr Lizardo

I consider Czech beer perhaps the best in the world. There’s a beer called Eggenberg, brewed in Cesky Krumlov, that’s fantastic.

It’s up there for sure. It’s too bad that we really only get Pilsner Urquell here in the states.

400 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:20:45am

re: #398 HappyWarrior

I’d believe in the “responsible gun owner” honestly if I didn’t read about kids accidentally shooting themselves with Dad’s gun, morons showing off getting themselves killed, etc. Now maybe we do need more gun safety but the gun culture, read obsession with guns, and idea that being a gunowner makes you more of a man and or American is part of that problem.

Gun-fuckers have Tweeted at me bragging that they have taken just as many training courses and practice as law enforcement professionals and trained combat troops. HURR HURR MAYBE EVEN MOAR TRAININGS!!!!!!!

401 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:22:07am
402 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:22:18am

re: #400 Vicious Piebola

Gun-fuckers have Tweeted at me bragging that they have taken just as many training courses and practice as law enforcement professionals and trained combat troops. HURR HURR MAYBE EVEN MOAR TRAININGS!!!!!!!

And yet we hear about “responsible gun owners” fucking up all the time. That’s not to say I don’t believe that one can be a responsible gun owner. I believe that but at the same time, I believe most of the self described responsible gun owners show themselves not to be a lot. The genius that took his 9 year old Uzi shooting that got the instructor killed. That poor little girl is going to have to live with knowing she killed another person for the rest of her life due to her father’s stupidity.

403 Amory Blaine  Nov 19, 2014 8:22:28am

re: #392 Amory Blaine

Check out this scale model excavator.

[Embedded content]

Video

These two are starting on the pipeline.

Youtube Video

404 bratwurst  Nov 19, 2014 8:22:58am
405 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:23:14am

re: #401 Vicious Piebola

[Embedded content]

Linky no work but I believe it. There’s too many cases like this. And I don’t care if it feeling that way makes me a “gungrabber”, I’m tired of people losing their lives due to stupid fetishists.

406 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:24:22am

re: #404 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

And we won’t need to put an asterisk next to his name because no one will accuse Mitch McConnell of doing FEDs- Filibuster enhancing drugs.

407 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 8:25:22am

My wife had a check that needed to be deposited to her credit union. Of course I said I’d go do it - 40 minutes each way minimum plus traffic around Stanford - after all, what is a home office day without a 2 hour gap? Then I checked her bank online - and yes, they have a mobile app. Put it on her phone, took a picture of the check, and voila! I’m back on the couch and my butt ain’t going anywhere.

I love being a hero.

408 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:25:33am

re: #402 HappyWarrior

And yet we hear about “responsible gun owners” fucking up all the time. That’s not to say I don’t believe that one can be a responsible gun owner. I believe that but at the same time, I believe most of the self described responsible gun owners show themselves not to be a lot. The genius that took his 9 year old Uzi shooting that got the instructor killed. That poor little girl is going to have to live with knowing she killed another person for the rest of her life due to her father’s stupidity.

Not just her father’s stupidity, the gun range owner had plenty of stupids, that got him killed.

409 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 19, 2014 8:26:02am

re: #400 Vicious Piebola

Gun-fuckers have Tweeted at me bragging that they have taken just as many training courses and practice as law enforcement professionals and trained combat troops. HURR HURR MAYBE EVEN MOAR TRAININGS!!!!!!!

If you want to defend your home and family with a gun, then I guess that is your choice and your right. But to safely use a gun in a crowded public place, especially one where people are dead, wounded or panicking, requires field experience nerves of steel and a good situational awareness.

That is a skills set you cannot just buy over the counter at the local sporting goods store.

410 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:27:04am

re: #408 Vicious Piebola

Not just her father’s stupidity, the gun range owner had plenty of stupids, that got him killed.

Yeah, I can’t believe no one there was there to tell the father “Uh seriously dude she’s nine.” I mean this stuff is sad enough when we have adults involved. 9 years old. I hope her father’s proud.

411 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:27:23am

re: #409 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

If you want to defend your home and family with a gun, then I guess that is your choice and your right. But to safely use a gun in a crowded public place, especially one where people are dead, wounded or panicking, requires field experience nerves of steel and a good situational awareness.

That is a skills set you cannot just buy over the counter at the local sporting goods store.

Every episode of NCIS has a shootout in a crowded public venue or in an enclosed space. They make it look so easy!

412 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:27:25am

re: #400 Vicious Piebola

Gun-fuckers have Tweeted at me bragging that they have taken just as many training courses and practice as law enforcement professionals and trained combat troops. HURR HURR MAYBE EVEN MOAR TRAININGS!!!!!!!

Having spent weeks in all day firearms training in the military I’d say that they were full of shit.

413 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 8:28:21am
414 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:29:49am

Problem is everytime you try to have a reasonable conversation on a national level you get shouted down as a “gungrabber”, “tyrant”, etc. There needs to be reason and I’ve seen zero effort to that by the NRA or GOA who see any reasonable policy as ushering in the Holocaust.

415 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 8:32:03am

HA!

416 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:32:19am

re: #414 HappyWarrior

Problem is everytime you try to have a reasonable conversation on a national level you get shouted down as a “gungrabber”, “tyrant”, etc. There needs to be reason and I’ve seen zero effort to that by the NRA or GOA who see any reasonable policy as ushering in the Holocaust.

How happy would you be if someone was trying to take away your penis?

417 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:32:48am

re: #416 Higgs Boson’s Mate

How happy would you be if someone was trying to take away your penis?

Haha. Touche.

418 Amory Blaine  Nov 19, 2014 8:33:27am

re: #416 Higgs Boson’s Mate

How happy would you be if someone was trying to take away your penis?

NSFW

Youtube Video

419 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:34:00am

LOL “Libertymeme” is a’scammin’ & a’griftin’

420 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 8:36:47am
421 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:39:17am

re: #419 Vicious Piebola

MMF: Moronic Mother Fuckers?

422 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 8:40:35am
423 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 8:41:43am

re: #409 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

If you want to defend your home and family with a gun, then I guess that is your choice and your right. But to safely use a gun in a crowded public place, especially one where people are dead, wounded or panicking, requires field experience nerves of steel and a good situational awareness.

That is a skills set you cannot just buy over the counter at the local sporting goods store.

So we need to save electrons by developing a JARGO tag?

Just Another Responsible Gun Owner.
/

424 HappyWarrior  Nov 19, 2014 8:42:12am

re: #422 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Marlins are going to regret that deal so quick. But at the same time, respect to them for actually trying to keep one of their guys this time.

425 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:48:31am

re: #409 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

If you want to defend your home and family with a gun, then I guess that is your choice and your right. But to safely use a gun in a crowded public place, especially one where people are dead, wounded or panicking, requires field experience nerves of steel and a good situational awareness.

That is a skills set you cannot just buy over the counter at the local sporting goods store.

The difficulty I have with people using firearms for home defense is that any pistol round bigger than .22 caliber stands a good chance of going right through the wall or the ceiling and then through something or someone you didn’t even know was in your line of fire.

426 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 8:52:15am

Via The Borowitz Report:

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell unveiled his party’s long-awaited plan on immigration on Wednesday, telling reporters, “We must make America somewhere no one wants to live.”

427 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 9:01:49am

re: #422 darthstar

$25 million per year. A contract entered into by a franchise that his hurting for money and which makes the ARod deal with Texas look good in comparison (and the Texas deal was so bad for the Rangers, that they had to dump the contract on the Red Sox Yankees).

He’ll probably be worth that $25 million for the first four years, and after that it’ll be a drag on the franchise and they’ll be looking to pawn him off on another team for the remainder.

I hate long term contracts, especially these major deals. 4 years is probably the tops I’d do - either as a player or a team. I could go to 6 or 7 with opt-outs, but that’d have to be unique talents (say like Mike Trout or Madison Bumgarner).

428 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 9:02:19am

I can’t quite put my finger on what’s wrong with this photo /

429 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 9:04:45am

LOL wingnuts pwn3d into retweeting a meme that makes fun of them:

430 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 9:05:48am
431 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 9:13:31am
Note that @pandodaily doesn’t include themselves. pando.com
432 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 9:13:59am

Still a pretty good chart…

433 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 9:19:17am

re: #431 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I don’t see Gawker

434 #FergusonFireside  Nov 19, 2014 9:23:53am
435 darthstar  Nov 19, 2014 9:28:08am

re: #433 Vicious Piebola

I don’t see Gawker

And First Look Media isn’t there either, except they’re excused because they don’t ever publish anything.

436 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 9:34:27am

re: #431 darthstar

They left out Goatnews. It’s another conspiracy!

437 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 9:36:07am

re: #434 #FergusonFireside

One of the finest examples of self-laming that I’ve ever seen.

438 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 9:46:31am

GOHMERT!!!1!!!1!!1

439 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Nov 19, 2014 9:46:33am

re: #437 Higgs Boson’s Mate

One of the finest examples of self-laming that I’ve ever seen.

Backpfeifenschnauzbart.

440 lawhawk  Nov 19, 2014 9:56:43am

Fearmongering regarding Ferguson continues apace. Drudge highlights this, but local media outlets are doing their worst too.

CBS News claims that online police forums are warning that the police wont be able to protect families from violence if there’s riots.

Let’s just ignore that the whole Ferguson protest and need for a grand jury commenced with law enforcement officer killing an unarmed black man, and the community demanding answers. The law enforcement response? Get your firearms ready (though the audience that’s being directed to have firearms at the ready isn’t the one actually affected by the shooting itself; that community continues to have its rights systematically undermined).

MO Gov. Nixon’s response thus far has been to be more concerned about property damage and to preempt with calling up the national guard and making warnings about potential violence, and not spending enough time actually going and fixing the problems with a law enforcement system that treats minorities and minority communities as a piggy bank and systematically keeps them subjugated and unable to rise out of poverty (complete with fleecing the education system, rigging the election system, and engaging in illegal policing tactics). That hasn’t gotten nearly as much attention as the focus by a media hellbent on clickbait is about ratcheting up tensions and warning of deadly violence, even though the only deceased victims are at the hands of law enforcement thus far - and that peaceful protests turned into something ugly only after the FPD and county police engaged in heavy handed tactics (some of which was illegal and/or unconstitutional).

441 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 19, 2014 10:05:49am

re: #425 Higgs Boson’s Mate

The difficulty I have with people using firearms for home defense is that any pistol round bigger than .22 caliber stands a good chance of going right through the wall or the ceiling and then through something or someone you didn’t even know was in your line of fire.

Ever read how evil hollow point bullets are? Those are the ones that stop in a wall. Catch-22

442 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Nov 19, 2014 10:09:57am

re: #429 Vicious Piebola

LOL wingnuts pwn3d into retweeting a meme that makes fun of them:

[Embedded content]

Kneejerk reactions. A bug to you, but a feature to them.

443 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 19, 2014 10:10:42am

BTW a little note-Local LE and tactical gun/gear suppliers are also having a hard time keeping up with demand. As if the local tactical cops were not over equipped already.

Again on Ferguson violence I’m afraid of the police first, the rioters second and local gun owners third. None of this is good, but let’s not forget how this started. A cop shot an unarmed teen to death.

444 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 10:15:18am

re: #440 lawhawk

CBS News claims that online police forums are warning that the police wont be able to protect families from violence if there’s riots.

There are any number of historical sources that mention Southerners’ terror of a slave revolt. Some things never change.

445 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 19, 2014 10:16:38am

re: #444 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Rodney king riots-The police retreated to defend official buildings and left neighborhoods on their own. I have always wondered if that was not a subtle provocation to justify over-reactions later.

With all the extra cops and gear and National Guard they still feel inadequate to the task? I call bullshit.

446 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 10:23:15am

re: #445 Indy GOP Refugee

Rodney king riots-The police retreated to defend official buildings and left neighborhoods on their own. I have always wondered if that was not a subtle provocation to justify over-reactions later.

With all the extra cops and gear and National Guard they still feel inadequate to the task? I call bullshit.

Well, there’s nothing subtle about it this time. They’re inoculating themselves against charges of shooting Black people out of hand.

447 Mike Lamb  Nov 19, 2014 10:38:50am

re: #438 Vicious Piebola

GOHMERT!!!1!!!1!!1

[Embedded content]

No. Effing. Way.

Because people coming to make a better life (absent a small minority) is totes the same as the folks that are trying to force their way into the White House.

448 Kragar  Nov 19, 2014 10:39:01am
449 Mike Lamb  Nov 19, 2014 10:40:04am

re: #448 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Ahistorical assholes.

450 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 10:45:41am

re: #447 Mike Lamb

No. Effing. Way.

Because people coming to make a better life (absent a small minority) is totes the same as the folks that are trying to force their way into the White House.

That’s part of the meme that goes HURR HURR IF TEH PRESIDENT CAN HAZ TEH SEEKRIT SERVICES WHY CAN’T I HAZ ALL TEH GUNZ!!!!!!!

451 sagehen  Nov 19, 2014 10:47:04am

re: #428 lawhawk

I can’t quite put my finger on what’s wrong with this photo /

[Embedded content]

hey, they found a woman this time! Without having to be reminded!!

Progress.

452 Bubblehead II  Nov 19, 2014 10:50:25am

re: #451 sagehen

hey, they found a woman this time! Without having to be reminded!!

Progress.

Are you sure that isn’t just a stock photo they shopped into the picture??

//

453 Kragar  Nov 19, 2014 11:01:22am
454 Kragar  Nov 19, 2014 11:05:25am

If elected President, I promise to devote billions to cloning an army of Shermans, cybernetically enhancing them, and taking a walking tour of racist America

455 Eventual Carrion  Nov 19, 2014 11:07:10am

re: #438 Vicious Piebola

GOHMERT!!!1!!!1!!1

[Embedded content]

And he can’t see how easy it is to climb the fence? What a waste of money it would be to build it just so they have to climb over it or tunnel under it?

456 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 11:07:15am

re: #448 Kragar

re: #448 Kragar

Far-right blogger Pamela Geller says exec. action on immigration will be America’s “death knell”

That’s sure a relief. For a minute there I thought it might be the concentration of wealth, the dismantling of the social safety net or pointless, endless foreign wars.

457 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 11:09:20am

Who is this Betsy Rothstein person? Because srsly, she sucks as a human being.
Oh, she’s a “journalist”

458 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 11:09:51am

re: #456 Higgs Boson’s Mate

That’s sure a relief. For a minute there I thought it might be the concentration of wealth, the dismantling of the social safety net or pointless, endless foreign wars.

Or the rapid destruction of out environment. But no, actually it’s brown people and Ebola (especially brown people WITH Ebola).

459 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 11:12:50am

re: #453 Kragar

[Embedded content]

*sigh*

460 BeachDem  Nov 19, 2014 11:12:56am

re: #451 sagehen

hey, they found a woman this time! Without having to be reminded!!

Progress.

According to Rachel, that woman was on an important committee and wanted chairmanship of that one (Homeland Security, I think), but instead, they moved her to be chairman of the House Administration committee, on which she had never served, and which, according to Rachel, is basically involved in housekeeping issues such as cafeterias and bathrooms. PROGRESS!

Rachel also had an additional graphic that included the new GOP Senate leadership team—all white males (they haven’t announced committee chairs yet—will probably stick Tim Scott on something inconsequential so they can have DIVERSITY.) The United Colors of Benetton they’re not.)

461 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 11:15:01am

re: #460 BeachDem

The United Colors of Benetton they’re not

Even The United Colors of Benetton were all the same size.

462 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 11:15:16am

re: #453 Kragar

I’m sure Jim Hoft is, at this very moment, checking to see if this guy ever voted for a Democrat.

463 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Nov 19, 2014 11:17:11am

Wow.

Several women have accused Cosby of rape and sexual assault. None of the accusations have been tested in court and Cosby has repeatedly denied the claims.[42]
On January 28, 2000, Lachele Covington alleged in a police report filed on February 1 that Cosby groped her in his apartment.[43][44][45]
In January 2004, Andrea Constand, a former Temple University employee, accused him of drugging and fondling her. In February 2005, authorities announced they would not charge Cosby over the allegations. Constand filed a civil claim against Cosby in March of that year[46] and thirteen women came forward with similar allegations, agreeing to testify as witnesses when the case went to court.[47] Cosby settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in November 2006.[46]
On hearing that the prosecutor was unlikely to pursue charges in relation to Andrea Constand’s accusation against Cosby, in February 2005 Californian lawyer Tamara Lucier Green came forward with allegations that Cosby had drugged and assaulted her in 1969.[48][49] Cosby’s lawyer said that Cosby did not know the accuser and that she had described events that did not happen.[50] In a July 2005 interview with the Philadelphia Daily News, Beth Ferrier alleged that in 1984, Cosby drugged her coffee, she felt woozy, passed out and woke up with her clothes partially removed.[51][52]
In an October 2014 interview, emboldened by a Hannibal Buress comedy routine where Buress called Cosby a serial rapist, artist Barbara Bowman repeated her long-standing accusations that Cosby drugged, sexually assaulted and raped her over a two year period beginning in 1985 when she was 17 years old.[47] On November 16, 2014, Hollywood Elsewhere published an essay by journalist Joan Tarshis claiming that Cosby raped her in 1969 when she was 19 years old.[53] On November 18, 2014, model Janice Dickinson spoke with Entertainment Tonight and accused Cosby of raping her in 1982 after giving her a glass of wine and a pill.[54]

464 BeachDem  Nov 19, 2014 11:17:13am

re: #457 Vicious Piebola

Who is this Betsy Rothstein person? Because srsly, she sucks as a human being.
Oh, she’s a “journalist”

[Embedded content]

Search her at Wonkette. Rebecca has never been fond of her, and has an ongoing report of Ms. Rothstein’s various activities.

465 Kragar  Nov 19, 2014 11:17:33am
466 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 11:19:42am

re: #465 Kragar

We’re gonna’ huff, and we’re gonna’ puff, and this time we’ll blow the house down!

467 Targetpractice  Nov 19, 2014 11:20:59am

re: #465 Kragar

[Embedded content]

“Give us what we want or we’re gonna hold our breaths!”

468 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 11:21:12am
469 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 11:22:55am

Bite a dick, Don Lemon.

470 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Nov 19, 2014 11:26:30am

re: #469 Backwoods_Sleuth

Bite a dick, Don Lemon.

[Embedded content]

If nothing else, a non-apology apology should be immediate ground for firing.

472 sagehen  Nov 19, 2014 11:36:52am
A defense of Cosby requires that one believe that several women have decided to publicly accuse one of the most powerful men in recent Hollywood history of a crime they have no hope of seeing prosecuted, and for which they are seeking no damages

…believing Bill Cosby does not require you to take one person’s word over another—it requires you take one person’s word over 15 others.

theatlantic.com

473 Jenner7  Nov 19, 2014 11:38:48am

WH press is pathetic.

More of “Why won’t Obama work with Republicans?”

Apparently Boehner said this executive action would “poison the well”, make cooperation more difficult with other issues.

It was poisoned on Inauguration night.

Boehner has some major balls….

Oh, and he called the President “Emperor Obama”.

474 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 11:39:42am
475 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 11:39:52am

re: #473 Jenner7

And Boehner is sitting on an immigration bill that the Senate passed ages ago.

476 Targetpractice  Nov 19, 2014 11:44:07am

re: #473 Jenner7

WH press is pathetic.

More of “Why won’t Obama work with Republicans?”

Apparently Boehner said this executive action would “poison the well”, make cooperation more difficult with other issues.

It was poisoned on Inauguration night.

Boehner has some major balls….

Oh, and he called the President “Emperor Obama”.

Because the GOP have become experienced at playing the press like a harp from Hell. Just making a bunch of blubbering noises about how they’re all suddenly ready to play nice if he’d just stop being such a meanie, and the press is there to pat them on the head while screaming that the President’s a monster for not giving into the GOP’s demands.

477 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 11:44:49am

WHUT
That cake doesn’t even look like a toilet.

Oh wait it’s a 3rd World “squat” toilet. FAIL.

478 #FergusonFireside  Nov 19, 2014 11:48:39am
479 Romantic Heretic  Nov 19, 2014 11:53:31am

re: #420 Vicious Piebola

[Embedded content]

Hmmm. Looks like a 75mm infantry gun in that pic.

These days they just use grenade launchers, which as I recall has one in every squad.

Plus the Bradley carrying that squad. that carries said squad.

I wonder if there are enough ammosexuals around to soak up the ten to fifty casualties they suffer for each soldier they’ll kill?

480 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 11:53:32am

re: #476 Targetpractice

Because the GOP have become experienced at playing the press like a harp from Hell. Just making a bunch of blubbering noises about how they’re all suddenly ready to play nice if he’d just stop being such a meanie, and the press is there to pat them on the head while screaming that the President’s a monster for not giving into the GOP’s demands.

The press has invested itself in pretending that one of our two (Count ‘em: Two!) parties has not gone off the rails. In order to maintain the pretense it must act as if every word spoken and every assertion made by the GOP is coming from sane, rational people who only have the good of the nation in mind. To do otherwise would require the press to admit that they’ve been blowing smoke up our asses since the GW Bush years.

481 Dr Lizardo  Nov 19, 2014 11:53:37am

re: #478 #FergusonFireside

[Embedded content]

Wingnut heads be all like

482 Romantic Heretic  Nov 19, 2014 11:56:55am

re: #426 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Via The Borowitz Report:

My wife said when I read this to her, “They’re doing a great job at it.”

483 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 11:58:34am

re: #479 Romantic Heretic

Hmmm. Looks like a 75mm infantry gun in that pic.

These days they just use grenade launchers, which as I recall has one in easy squad.

Plus the Bradley carrying that squad. that carries said squad.

I wonder if there are enough ammosexuals around to soak up the ten to fifty casualties they suffer for each soldier they’ll kill?

That’s a picture of the Warsaw ghetto, after a bunch of random citizens tried to resist the Holocaust with some guns.

484 Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 19, 2014 12:05:21pm

re: #472 sagehen

theatlantic.com

TNC’s piece is compelling and remarkably personal, and it’s really hard to imagine that the accusations are NOT true at this point, which is depressing.

It does make me wonder whether soon the “I’m 77 years old and I’m tired” fake emails everyone’s crazy wingnut uncle likes on Facebook will stop, and be replaced with something else racist about Cosby.

485 Romantic Heretic  Nov 19, 2014 12:06:01pm

re: #483 Vicious Piebola

That’s a picture of the Warsaw ghetto, after a bunch of random citizens tried to resist the Holocaust with some guns.

Thought so. Unfortunately all battles look a like after a while.

486 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 12:07:31pm

re: #483 Vicious Piebola

That’s a picture of the Warsaw ghetto, after a bunch of random citizens tried to resist the Holocaust with some guns.

There’s no way that a trained military that’s spent more than a decade dealing with close combat, ambushes, and IED’s won’t fall into the traps set by the Wolverines.

487 Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 19, 2014 12:08:29pm

re: #481 Dr Lizardo

Wingnut heads be all like

[Embedded content]

The other day my Wingnut cousin ‘liked’ a post on FB from Fox News, where Eric Bolling said that ~40% of new Medicaid recipients were immigrants with US-born children, and were people okay with that?

At least 80% of the commenters assumed he was saying “ILLEGAL immigrants”, though he never used the word. And they wonder why Latinos aren’t flocking to their banner.

488 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 12:10:27pm

re: #487 Blind Frog Belly White

And they wonder why Latinos aren’t flocking to their banner.

That’s because repeated floggings work so well on their base.

489 The Vicious Fergushka  Nov 19, 2014 12:12:34pm
490 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 12:13:37pm

re: #489 Vicious Piebola

Ah. They attacked due to concerns about ethics in gaming literature I presume?
/////

491 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 12:27:08pm

re: #490 Feline Fearless Leader

Ah. They attacked due to concerns about ethics in gaming literature I presume?
/////

And here I thought that it was another result of the leadership on both sides maintaining their positions by nursing grudges.

492 #FergusonFireside  Nov 19, 2014 12:30:56pm
493 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 19, 2014 12:33:24pm
494 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 12:34:08pm

re: #489 Vicious Piebola

Here’s the excuse:

Yeah, it’s the same thing the IDF says when they bomb civilian areas.

495 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 12:36:26pm

re: #491 Higgs Boson’s Mate

And here I thought that it was another result of the leadership on both sides maintaining their positions by nursing grudges.

Grudges are the driving force of politics in the Middle East.

496 Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 19, 2014 12:37:10pm

re: #491 Higgs Boson’s Mate

And here I thought that it was another result of the leadership on both sides maintaining their positions by nursing grudges.

If you nurse a grudge long enough what does it grow into?

497 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 12:45:06pm

re: #495 Ace-o-aces

Grudges are the driving force of politics in the Middle East.

At one of the places I worked as a machinist a pair of brothers from Lebanon were among my co-workers. They were nice enough guys and when we’d known each other long enough to have a toke together in the parking lot after work one of them told me his real name on condition that I never use it in front of anyone else. Turned out that their family had sent them to America because of a thirty year old feud with a family living in Syria. Tit for tat murders had been going on for years and the brothers’ family didn’t want to lose its last two young men.

498 Ace-o-aces  Nov 19, 2014 12:48:15pm

re: #497 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Yeah, there are a lot of people suffering over things their great-grandfathers did.

499 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 19, 2014 12:54:24pm

re: #496 Feline Fearless Leader

If you nurse a grudge long enough what does it go into?

A big fat grudge with a will of its own.

500 #FergusonFireside  Nov 19, 2014 12:56:45pm

re: #493 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Hilarious.

501 Swift2991  Nov 19, 2014 5:49:26pm

I’m not seeing how we can bust through on this issue, and bend the future to a human one. The billionaires have a lot of “money” to lose, and the end will come after most of these men, and most of us, are dead.


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