Today’s Rolling Stone Train Wreck

This is bad
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Today’s depressing item on the state of US journalism is this very odd retraction by Rolling Stone, whose editors now say they can’t back up their recent story about a gang rape at a University of Virginia fraternity house: A Note to Our Readers | Rolling Stone.

What a train wreck. And it’s made even worse by the way RS editor Will Dana “explains” it.

Because of the sensitive nature of Jackie’s story, we decided to honor her request not to contact the man she claimed orchestrated the attack on her nor any of the men she claimed participated in the attack for fear of retaliation against her. In the months Erdely spent reporting the story, Jackie neither said nor did anything that made Erdely, or Rolling Stone’s editors and fact-checkers, question Jackie’s credibility. Her friends and rape activists on campus strongly supported Jackie’s account. She had spoken of the assault in campus forums. We reached out to both the local branch and the national leadership of the fraternity where Jackie said she was attacked. They responded that they couldn’t confirm or deny her story but had concerns about the evidence.

In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie’s account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact the alleged assaulters to get their account. We are taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who was affected by the story.

Not to belabor the point, but if this is supposed to be “transparency” it fails miserably. Unspecified “discrepancies?” This statement is amazingly vague for what’s supposed to be a mea culpa.

But worse, this opens the floodgates for gloating right wing misogynists to call into question other accounts of rape and abuse — and it’s already happening in social media. (Soon coming to a right wing news source near you.) The people who’ve been pushing one false story after another for years will now deliver hypocritical lectures about the right way to do journalism.

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232 comments
1 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 12:16:23pm
we decided to honor her request not to contact the man she claimed orchestrated the attack on her nor any of the men she claimed participated in the attack for fear of retaliation against her

The pinnacle of journalism! /dripping

Seems not only TNR should’ve disbanded.

2 Charles Johnson  Dec 5, 2014 12:16:29pm
3 FemNaziBitch  Dec 5, 2014 12:16:51pm

rollover from previous thread.

Toni Morrison on Race — starting a about 4:35
Youtube Video

4 nines09  Dec 5, 2014 12:18:20pm

Reporting. just what is that once again?

5 FemNaziBitch  Dec 5, 2014 12:20:24pm

The last stats claimed that 3% of rape allegations are false.

But, you know, she was drunk …

6 FemNaziBitch  Dec 5, 2014 12:21:28pm
7 FemNaziBitch  Dec 5, 2014 12:21:57pm

and

8 lawhawk  Dec 5, 2014 12:23:54pm

Rolling Stone screwed the pooch with this mess. You’re supposed to fact check and vet your sources before publication.

Not after.

But here’s the thing about the reporting here. The WaPo report that cast doubt on the Rolling Stone reporting indicated that there were other women who were raped on campus:

Alex Pinkleton, a close friend of Jackie’s who survived a rape and an attempted rape during her first two years on campus, said in an interview that she has had numerous conversations with Jackie in recent days and now feels misled.

“One of my biggest fears with these inconsistencies emerging is that people will be unwilling to believe survivors in the future,” Pinkleton said. “However, we need to remember that the majority of survivors who come forward are telling the truth.”

(snip)

Emily Renda was a U-Va. senior when she first met Jackie in the fall of 2013. In an interview, Renda said that she immediately connected with Jackie as they discussed the bond they shared as rape survivors. Renda said that she was raped her freshman year after attending a fraternity party.

UVA is the subject of a federal probe on sexual assaults.

The situation on campuses across the country is a mess - sexual assaults are underreported because women don’t trust the system, and are worried about the backlash for reporting. This “retraction/correction” doesn’t help women seek help, let alone justice if they’ve been sexually assaulted.

9 Kragar  Dec 5, 2014 12:23:57pm

“Discrepancies in the victim’s story” apparently means every rape victim has lied about every rape ever according to conservatives.

10 The Vicious Babushka  Dec 5, 2014 12:24:11pm

Stacy McCain is fapping himself into a stupor.

11 The Vicious Babushka  Dec 5, 2014 12:24:51pm

Reposted from previous thread:
This is not the first time Rolling Stone has fucked up.

12 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 12:25:13pm

re: #9 Kragar

“Discrepancies in the victim’s story” apparently means every rape victim has lied about every rape ever according to conservatives.

A real victim wouldn’t go to the press! Any woman who does just wants attention!

/(BRB, washing bile from mouth)

13 Skip Intro  Dec 5, 2014 12:26:19pm

Today in the Life of Insane butterdezillion

To: butterdezillion
Looks like your “g” key is running low. I have a few to spare.
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
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If I can be of more assistance, please be sure to let me know.
149 posted on 12/5/2014, 10:21:06 AM by zeugma (The act of observing disturbs the observed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]
freerepub…ts

To: zeugma
Actually, that’s a huge help, because I have a g to cut and paste. And I also have a G to cut and paste. If I could just keep your post on top I’d easily be able to grab what I need.

Aha! Even better. I’ll put those letters in my tag line and then I’ll always have them available when I post. I won’t Guarantee I’ll always take the time to worry about it but at least it’ll be easier to do when I remember.

152 posted on 12/5/2014, 10:29:23 AM by butterdezillion (Note to self : put this between arrow keys: img src=”“/ g G)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

freerepublic.com

14 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 12:30:01pm

And true victims of sexual assault will suffer due to Rolling Stone’s BS story.

15 jaunte  Dec 5, 2014 12:30:25pm
16 nearly-headless smith25  Dec 5, 2014 12:31:51pm
17 Dr. Matt  Dec 5, 2014 12:33:25pm
A Note to Our Readers
Comments for this thread are now closed.

Ah, wonder why?

18 jaunte  Dec 5, 2014 12:34:23pm
19 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 12:35:22pm

Welcome home Matt Taibbi

20 Kryptik  Dec 5, 2014 12:37:41pm

And the rush to use this to discredit any and all rape accusations has already started.

Fan-fucking-tastic. As if the last couple of weeks weren’t already shittastic.

21 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 12:42:07pm

re: #20 Kryptik

And the rush to use this to discredit any and all rape accusations has already started.

Fan-fucking-tastic. As if the last couple of weeks weren’t already shittastic.

Oh, it goes without saying that Cosby and his supporters will try to exploit this to say that all the women accusing him of rape are liars.

22 jaunte  Dec 5, 2014 12:43:31pm

Unspecified “discrepancies.”

40 years after Nixon steps down, Rolling Stone discovers the limited hangout.

23 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 12:44:51pm

re: #21 Targetpractice

Oh, it goes without saying that Cosby and his supporters will try to exploit this to say that all the women accusing him of rape are liars.

They already tried and failed. One testimony can be false (which is why no verdict should be based on a single testimony), but the more there are of them, the less probable the whole “they are all lying” thing becomes.

24 FemNaziBitch  Dec 5, 2014 12:48:12pm

bbl

25 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 12:49:25pm

re: #23 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

That is, “the less probable”. Got all my negatives confused :]

26 walkingdeadhead  Dec 5, 2014 12:51:46pm

Can you sue for sloppy journalism? The Phi Kappa Psi house has been vandalized and had its activities suspended all because a Rolling Stone reporter was so eager to advance her career in advocacy journalism that she forgot (I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt here) to fact check her source.

Phi Kappa Psi did not even have a party or any social function the weekend the phony rape took place. The accused rapist wasn’t even a member of PKP and had never even met the phony victim.

Ultimately, the editors of Rolling Stone are to blame. Its their JOB to get the who, when and where correct before they go to press and potentially ruin someone’s life over a false allegation. I believe the editors did this because striking a blow against the white male patriarchy gives them more of a hard on than getting the story right.

27 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 12:54:42pm
28 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 12:55:35pm

It’s always nice when someone brings all the talking points directly to your doorstep. Who needs Twitter?

29 jamesfirecat  Dec 5, 2014 12:56:57pm

re: #26 walkingdeadhead

I believe the editors did this because striking a blow against the white male patriarchy gives them more of a hard on than getting the story right.

And Lasty breaks a leg on the final turn just as he’s about to make a reasonable point.

COME ON LASTY!

30 jaunte  Dec 5, 2014 12:57:28pm
31 No Country For Old Haters  Dec 5, 2014 1:02:32pm

re: #26 walkingdeadhead

If only you hadn’t melted down into wingnut derp at the end of your post, you might have made a point.

32 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 1:05:15pm

She is loathed in Wingnuttville, I wonder where she is going to go?

33 jaunte  Dec 5, 2014 1:10:56pm

Chez Pazienza:

“…Anyone can tell an incredible story that gets people talking and maybe that talk will even serve the greater good, but that’s not a journalist’s job. A journalists’s job is to tell a story that’s true because a journalist knows that even a great story that isn’t absolutely true can wind up undoing all the immediate good that might come from it. We don’t deal in apocrypha.”
thedailybanter.com

34 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 1:11:51pm

Probably something worth saying, because people seem to forget things like this.

35 garzooma  Dec 5, 2014 1:13:05pm

re: #26 walkingdeadhead

Can you sue for sloppy journalism?

Sure can. Richard Bradley, the blogger who first raised questions about the Rolling Stone story, pointed this out recently:

This issue is personal for me. About fifteen years ago, I wrote a long story for Mother Jones magazine about a Republican political consultant, married three times, who was alleged by his first two wives to have beaten them. I got the women on the record; I got friends of theirs on the record; I got relatives of theirs on the record. All confirmed the allegations.

Which is a big reason why people believed the story, and why I won the $4 million libel suit that the consultant filed against me and Mother Jones.

36 Romantic Heretic  Dec 5, 2014 1:18:08pm

Shrugs. In our society a person, or institution’s, power is dependent on them being right about everything all the time. If they made mistakes they would lose their power, or so they believe.

So denial and obfuscation are the only courses open to them.

37 leftynyc  Dec 5, 2014 1:19:48pm

re: #26 walkingdeadhead

Can you sue for sloppy journalism? The Phi Kappa Psi house has been vandalized and had its activities suspended all because a Rolling Stone reporter was so eager to advance her career in advocacy journalism that she forgot (I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt here) to fact check her source.

Phi Kappa Psi did not even have a party or any social function the weekend the phony rape took place. The accused rapist wasn’t even a member of PKP and had never even met the phony victim.

Ultimately, the editors of Rolling Stone are to blame. Its their JOB to get the who, when and where correct before they go to press and potentially ruin someone’s life over a false allegation. I believe the editors did this because striking a blow against the white male patriarchy gives them more of a hard on than getting the story right.

Of course, Glenn Beck is being sued for the that very thing. I don’t personally consider that slug a journalist but I’m betting slack jawed rednecks do.

38 Amory Blaine  Dec 5, 2014 1:20:33pm

re: #1 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

The pinnacle of journalism! /dripping

Seems not only TNR should’ve disbanded.

dear Very Serious Journalists

The New Republic was never anything but a warmongering racist antileft trashpile and I hope the whole enterprise burns to the ground and if you are nostalgic about it you’re nostalgic for The Bell Curve, the war on Iraq, and Marty Peretz’s Muslim Hating Neo-Fascist Jamboree. The whole enterprise was corrupt right down to its colonialist bones and if some Facebook billionaire wants to turn it into Tinder For Politico Jagbags it could not possibly suffer in comparison. Shedding tears for Leon Wiseltier’s job is like worrying about what became of Stalin’s cat. I only pray for the day that your twisted obsession with Village bric-a-brac is performed by the unpaid interns that are the inevitable future of Big Media, which will be celebrated by you neoliberal clowns right up until some 17 year old earning nothing but 3 $9,000-a-credit-hour credits literally unplugs the keyboard from your workstation. Tell Stephen Glass I said hey and shut out the lights on your way out.

39 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 1:26:56pm

re: #38 Amory Blaine

I could say that “it had its good moments”. But for a magazine of that caliber this is hardly praise, on the contrary.

40 b_sharp  Dec 5, 2014 1:31:22pm

Have you ever noticed how dirty your glasses get if you don’t clean them?

41 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 1:32:05pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Have you ever noticed how dirty your glasses get if you don’t clean them?

I can’t believe how dirty they are after I clean them.

42 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:33:50pm

I may get slammed for this, but just how far did the RS editors really go in actually fact-checking this story? Did “Jackie” seek medical attention, and if so, was a rape kit done? Was it reported to the campus police and authorities? Off-campus LE? If they were depending solely on her reporting of such a traumatic event to the following “friends and rape activists” (?), without physical evidence and the writer’s “belief” in Jackie’s story of it, does that make it either true or untrue? What about the fraternity, who was already poised to deny the story, as they usually do every rape?

“Because of the sensitive nature of Jackie’s story, we decided to honor her request not to contact the man she claimed orchestrated the attack on her nor any of the men she claimed participated in the attack for fear of retaliation against her. In the months Erdely spent reporting the story, Jackie neither said nor did anything that made Erdely, or Rolling Stone’s editors and fact-checkers, question Jackie’s credibility. Her friends and rape activists on campus strongly supported Jackie’s account. She had spoken of the assault in campus forums. We reached out to both the local branch and the national leadership of the fraternity where Jackie said she was attacked. They responded that they couldn’t confirm or deny her story but had concerns about the evidence.

Read more: rollingstone.com

43 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 1:33:57pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Have you ever noticed how dirty your glasses get if you don’t clean them?

Wait, one has to clean one’s glasses? *scrub scrub* I CAN SEE THE LIGHT!

44 Timothy Watson  Dec 5, 2014 1:34:07pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Have you ever noticed how dirty your glasses get if you don’t clean them?

Yeah, mine usually don’t get cleaned until there’s a spot in the center which annoys me enough to clean them.

45 b_sharp  Dec 5, 2014 1:36:16pm

re: #41 b.d.

I can’t believe how dirty they are after I clean them.

Try using soap and water.

Mud doesn’t work. I’ve tried it.

46 b_sharp  Dec 5, 2014 1:36:53pm

re: #43 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

Wait, one has to clean one’s glasses? *scrub scrub* I CAN SEE THE LIGHT!

Whatever you do, do not follow the light. It’s a trick.

47 b_sharp  Dec 5, 2014 1:38:53pm

re: #44 Timothy Watson

Yeah, mine usually don’t get cleaned until there’s a spot in the center which annoys me enough to clean them.

I clean my glasses when all the comments on LGF start looking the same.

48 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:39:30pm

It’s been my experience, both personally and in talking with other rape victims, that we want the bastards caught and to burn in hell. Friends, family, and the Rolling Stone magazine can’t do that, but LE and a good prosecutor can.

49 lawhawk  Dec 5, 2014 1:41:21pm

Parsing the “refutation” letter issued by the fraternity indicates that they aren’t actually denying that the events took place.

They’re denying any knowledge of whether anything happened. This isn’t just semantics.

“We have no knowledge of these alleged acts being committed at our house or by our members” doesn’t refute said acts.

“The chapter did not have a date function or a social event during the weekend of September 28th, 2012” doesn’t refute said acts—that only means there was no formally organized party at Phi Psi that night. It doesn’t mean people weren’t socializing there. Maybe it was a handful of people, maybe it was a huge rager, but it’s a given that someone is drinking at every college frat in the United States at any given moment.

“Our chapter’s pledging and initiation periods, as required by the University and Inter-Fraternity Council, take place solely in the spring semester and not in the fall semester” doesn’t refute said acts, because frat rushing is lawless. This is like a foreign regime denying the use of chemical weapons because it’s against international law—who cares, man! Not Phi Psi, or any other fraternity, which are constantly breaking the fake rules imposed upon them by fake institutions like “Inter-Fraternity Councils.”

“No ritualized sexual assault is part of our pledging or initiation process” doesn’t refute said acts, but at least it’s very minimally reassuring.

So, when you read the entire letter, know that it’s filled with a bunch of evasive denials that aren’t as lock-tight as claimed.

50 Flying Squirrel Girl  Dec 5, 2014 1:41:57pm

re: #47 b_sharp

As someone who has worn glasses since age 9, I can always tell when a person wears glasses only for reading because the lenses are dirty. :)

51 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:42:31pm

Official Statement from the Virginia Alpha Chapter at University of Virginia

facebook.com

52 Eventual Carrion  Dec 5, 2014 1:43:20pm

re: #46 b_sharp

Whatever you do, do not follow the light. It’s a trick.

Yep, that light at the end of the tunnel just might be a train coming your way.

53 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:44:24pm
54 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 1:44:31pm

re: #45 b_sharp

Try using soap and water.

Mud doesn’t work. I’ve tried it.

lava soap and a red shop rag, still no help.

:(

55 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 1:45:30pm

re: #49 lawhawk

Parsing the “refutation” letter issued by the fraternity indicates that they aren’t actually denying that the events took place.

They’re denying any knowledge of whether anything happened. This isn’t just semantics.

So, when you read the entire letter, know that it’s filled with a bunch of evasive denials that aren’t as lock-tight as claimed.

Your brush is getting a little broad there. Use of “every” and “any other fraternity”.

(Edit: I will also upding it since the subject is worth discussing. The subject of how fraternities handle situations splits and gets complex pretty quickly. They’re dealing with college age men and women, and also trying to act like responsible corporations and protect their shareholders/members. So one thing they teach is to centralize response to events to appointed representatives. And they end up issuing boilerplate statements since, essentially, they do not know what happened themselves. Individuals within the organization might, but the information has not been collected and collated. And the fraternities upper level representatives often have to fight through lying and attempted cover-ups themselves.)

56 Dr Lizardo  Dec 5, 2014 1:45:47pm

re: #54 b.d.

lava soap and a red shop rag, still no help.

:(

Isopropyl alcohol - rubbing alcohol.

Works great.

57 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 1:48:35pm

re: #48 Justanotherhuman

It’s been my experience, both personally and in talking with other rape victims, that we want the bastards caught and to burn in hell. Friends, family, and the Rolling Stone magazine can’t do that, but LE and a good prosecutor can.

Statistically speaking, most rapes are not reported.

58 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 1:49:08pm

The microfiber cloth that was included with the glasses does the trick.

59 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 1:49:25pm

re: #58 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

The microfiber cloth that was included with the glasses does the trick.

I wonder where I put it…

60 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:49:43pm
61 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 1:51:29pm

re: #60 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

Yep, best to wait. Which doesn’t excuse RS’s “reporting”.

62 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 1:51:52pm

re: #58 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

The microfiber cloth that was included with the glasses does the trick.

I got one of those recently from the company. Use it to clean my reading glasses at work. Does a good job.

63 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 1:58:11pm

re: #58 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

The microfiber cloth that was included with the glasses does the trick.

So will used dryer sheets.

64 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 1:58:28pm

re: #57 klystron

Statistically speaking, most rapes are not reported.

That doesn’t mean the ones who do report rape don’t want their attackers caught.

I don’t know the personal reasons women have who don’t report these crimes, but it’s been 50 yrs since I was sexually assaulted, and I had no qualms in reporting it to LE, even though it was considerably more traumatic to do so then, than it appears to be now, when people are much better informed about this type of crime.

65 Amory Blaine  Dec 5, 2014 2:00:58pm

You have to get out the oil that gathers in the nooks and crannies of your frames as when you wipe the lens clean inevitably an errant fiber will bring it out and smear your clean lens.

66 Ace-o-aces  Dec 5, 2014 2:01:52pm

re: #38 Amory Blaine

dear Very Serious Journalists

Wow, that just about sums up my feelings on the matter.

67 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:04:31pm

re: #60 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

Don’t they teach proper English usage anywhere these days?

Of course, I’m assuming that whoever tweeted that had a good English language background since they work for a TV station, probably an incorrect assumption.

(S/B “she and her client”.)

Mood: Peckish.

68 Amory Blaine  Dec 5, 2014 2:06:29pm

re: #66 Ace-o-aces

He also has an interesting piece on the Rolling Stone story.

the truth is good enough

I think something similar has taken hold of almost the entire contemporary left when it comes to rape and our efforts to fight it, and the controversy about the Rolling Stone article on the University of Virginia is a perfect example: we have the rise of people on the left who are so utterly convinced of the fairness and accuracy of the reporting that they feel it should never be questioned at all. And that doesn’t make any sense.

On my Facebook this morning, someone shared this Erik Wemple piece criticizing Rolling Stone’s reporter, Sabrina Erdely, for not attempting to interview the accused rapists in the case in question. The response was immediate and angry; commenters on the link demanded to know why the person who shared it would do such a thing, arguing that Wemple’s criticism amounts to rape denial and that no one who cares about fighting rape would take these criticisms seriously. If you think that this is a rare occurrence, I encourage you to search for the link to Wemple’s piece on Twitter, or for the link to this piece from Hanna Rosin and Alison Benedikt at Slate that asks similar questions.

69 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 2:06:45pm

Wait, am I reading this right? The fraternity in question basically declares in its best Sgt. Schultz voice “WE SEE NOZHING!” and Rolling Stone immediately turns on “Jackie” for fear that it may have been caught up in a lie?

70 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:07:54pm

re: #57 klystron

Statistically speaking, most rapes are not reported.

If they’re not reported, how do we determine ‘most’ statistically? I’ll buy ‘many’.

71 makeitstop  Dec 5, 2014 2:10:33pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

Wait, am I reading this right? The fraternity in question basically declares in its best Sgt. Schultz voice “WE SEE NOZHING!” and Rolling Stone immediately turns on “Jackie” for fear that it may have been caught up in a lie?

The frat’s statement was after the fact, if I’m reading it right.

RS posted a message at the top of the story, saying that they learned of ‘discrepancies’ in the victim’s story. The frat released its statement after that happened.

72 Kragar  Dec 5, 2014 2:11:19pm
73 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 2:11:37pm

Whatever, I will leave this data here and bow out of the semantics discussion.

74 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 2:12:41pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

Wait, am I reading this right? The fraternity in question basically declares in its best Sgt. Schultz voice “WE SEE NOZHING!” and Rolling Stone immediately turns on “Jackie” for fear that it may have been caught up in a lie?

I edited my comment #55 above, but I’ll repeat something here. One reason that the fraternity has not said anything meaningful yet is that they are still trying to collect information and find out the what the facts are themselves. It’s a bit like carrying out responsible journalism.

I’m speaking from the viewpoint of an upper level representative of the fraternity; e.g. national office or the chapter’s corporate board. They wouldn’t have been there, but now have to interview and fact collect just like everyone else does. And potentially deal with evasion, cover-ups, etc. as well.

75 Jenner7  Dec 5, 2014 2:15:12pm
76 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 2:18:27pm

re: #71 makeitstop

The frat’s statement was after the fact, if I’m reading it right.

RS posted a message at the top of the story, saying that they learned of ‘discrepancies’ in the victim’s story. The frat released its statement after that happened.

So far as I can tell, there’s been no evidence presented to refute “Jackie’s” story, just her word against the fraternity’s denials.

77 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:18:29pm

re: #73 klystron

Whatever, I will leave this data here and bow out of the semantics discussion.

I hope you re-look that with your scientist hat on.

78 Timothy Watson  Dec 5, 2014 2:22:17pm

re: #77 Decatur Deb

I hope you re-look that with your scientist hat on.

Is that something wrong with the National Crime Victimization Survey?

79 b_sharp  Dec 5, 2014 2:22:46pm

Is the word review no longer a cool word to use?

80 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:23:10pm

re: #76 Targetpractice

So far as I can tell, there’s been no evidence presented to refute “Jackie’s” story, just her word against the fraternity’s denials.

From what I’m reading, and that doesn’t mean her story isn’t true, there is no evidence to actually support her version, either.

Thus, the “retraction” from RS, if I understand the above post.

81 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:24:12pm

re: #78 Timothy Watson

Is that something wrong with the National Crime Victimization Survey?

Haven’t the faintest idea. Surveys are very hard to do and interpret, even when the issue is not controversial.

82 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 2:25:00pm

re: #80 Justanotherhuman

From what I’m reading, and that doesn’t mean her story isn’t true, there is no evidence to actually support her version, either.

Thus, the “retraction” from RS, if I understand the above post.

Honestly sounds to me like RS feels they need to get out from under the possibility of a defamation suit.

83 Timothy Watson  Dec 5, 2014 2:25:12pm

re: #81 Decatur Deb

Haven’t the faintest idea. Surveys are very hard to do and interpret, even when the issue is not controversial.

NCVS is the nation’s primary source of information on criminal victimization. Each year, data are obtained from a nationally representative sample of about 90,000 households, comprising nearly 160,000 persons, on the frequency, characteristics, and consequences of criminal victimization in the United States. Each household is interviewed twice during the year. The survey enables BJS to estimate the likelihood of victimization by rape or sexual assault, robbery, aggravated and simple assault, theft, household burglary, and motor vehicle theft for the population as a whole as well as for segments of the population such as women, the elderly, members of various racial or ethnic groups, city dwellers, and other groups. The NCVS provides the largest national forum for victims to describe the impact of crime and characteristics of violent offenders.

bjs.gov

84 bratwurst  Dec 5, 2014 2:25:40pm
85 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 2:25:59pm

re: #49 lawhawk

Parsing the “refutation” letter issued by the fraternity indicates that they aren’t actually denying that the events took place.

They’re denying any knowledge of whether anything happened. This isn’t just semantics.

So, when you read the entire letter, know that it’s filled with a bunch of evasive denials that aren’t as lock-tight as claimed.

This is important, particularly in light of how fraternities and sororities work from an insurance perspective. (I’m going to use the word “frats” from here on out, but read it as genderless.)

The wild parties that frats are known for are not insurable in any way shape or form. So the national organizations survive lawsuits entirely on plausible deniability. When an incident happens at a frat party, the national organization sends a tiger team to “help” the chapter through the legal turmoil. What they’re really there for is to interview everyone involved, make sure the national organization’s rules were getting broken and find the “bad apple” they can scapegoat.

It turns out that the standard set of rules for fraternity parties are really strict, and involve things like every attendee only being allowed to bring one six pack of beer, which must be checked to a designated attendant (who must be a member of the frat), and then everyone can only drink the alcohol they brought, as distributed at a safe rate from the alcohol check guy. I’m not kidding. This is in every fraternity rule book. And when have you ever heard of a frat following that rule? This is also what the “registered social event” business is. That there wasn’t a registered event doesn’t mean there wasn’t a party. It means there wasn’t a party that was run strictly according to the fraternity rules. So whatever happened is not the national organization’s fault.

So, when a rape happens, or a drunk kid falls out of a window and dies, the national organization finds the rule breaking, disavows any approval of the chapter’s actions and lets the members of the chapter in question deal with the legal fallout as individuals.

That is what is going on with the letter from the fraternity. This is the national organization Covering Its Ass. They released this for insurance and legal purposes, and I would give it no weight either way on whether or not the rape happened. Given what happens in the modern fraternity system, this is the only way for the national organizations to avoid being sued into oblivion. And if they were going to fall prey to any lawsuits related to this kind of behavior, they would be completely uninsurable.

Frankly, I would never let a child of mine join a fraternity or sorority. Particularly if you own a house and don’t want to lose in a wrongful death or similar lawsuit.

86 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:27:17pm

This “fraternities” - “sororities” thing is so goofy.

87 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 2:27:54pm

re: #77 Decatur Deb

I hope you re-look that with your scientist hat on.

Part of my scientist hat, as you put it, is understanding the care that the social scientists took in designing the questions and evaluating the responses, not to mention the statistical work in the analysis.

88 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:29:42pm

re: #83 Timothy Watson

bjs.gov

Looks like a decent source, though I don’t have their actual data or methodology at hand. Same for the analysis layer that turns numbers into adjectives. I get hinky when numbers are presented by any kind of advocacy group, even when they are originally from academically sound sources.

89 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:32:08pm

re: #86 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

This “fraternities” - “sororities” thing is so goofy.

They almost died under the student life of the 60s-70s, and I regret they didn’t. If you want to find the nursery of privilege in American society, start looking there.

90 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 2:32:25pm

re: #85 3eff Jeff

So would this mean that even the denial that the alleged rapist was ever a member of the fraternity could simply be a CYA move?

91 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:32:46pm

re: #86 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

This “fraternities” - “sororities” thing is so goofy.

All schools need to de-emphasize the “party culture” so many have in favor of real education and the teaching of a personal code of ethics.

Condoning underage drinking/drunkenness and damaging behavior points to a de-emphasis on personal responsibility and discipline.

And yes, there is still a double standard. “Boys will be boys.”

And, “We can’t allow this incident to ruin a young man’s career.”

92 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:33:59pm

re: #89 Decatur Deb

They almost died under the student life of the 60s-70s, and I regret they didn’t. If you want to find the nursery of privilege in American society, start looking there.

In every American movie I’ve watched in which those appeared, it was either a sign of some trouble or an indication that some assholes were about to appear on the screen :)

93 No Country For Old Haters  Dec 5, 2014 2:35:11pm

re: #63 Higgs Boson’s Mate

I have very good luck with a single drop of dishwashing liquid, spread over both sides of the lenses, washed off with very hot water.

94 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:35:59pm
95 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:36:04pm

re: #87 klystron

Part of my scientist hat, as you put it, is understanding the care that the social scientists took in designing the questions and evaluating the responses, not to mention the statistical work in the analysis.

You risk calling us sociologists and anthropologists real scientists. We’re really the pinnacle of the entertainment industry.

96 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:37:27pm

re: #95 Decatur Deb

You risk calling us sociologists and anthropologists real scientists. We’re really the pinnacle of the entertainment industry.

:)

97 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 2:38:38pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

So would this mean that even the denial that the alleged rapist was ever a member of the fraternity could simply be a CYA move?

Fraternities are distinctly lawful-evil organizations. If there is any statement in there that’s true and relevant, that’s it. But, big but here, this letter is a PR piece, and not a deposition, so they should be legally able to get away with outright lying, and muddying the water in the media is probably to their advantage.

98 EPR-radar  Dec 5, 2014 2:39:43pm

re: #77 Decatur Deb

I hope you re-look that with your scientist hat on.

The only apparent quantitative issue there is a 1% sleight of hand where 97% “will walk free” would appear to include 1% with a felony conviction.

99 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:40:08pm

re: #95 Decatur Deb

You risk calling us sociologists and anthropologists real scientists. We’re really the pinnacle of the entertainment industry.

My only sociology course in college was “self-paced”. I decided at that time I wasn’t going to go the full monty of majoring in it, because there were always assumptions in the questions.

100 Targetpractice  Dec 5, 2014 2:40:14pm

Yegods, even when they try a Friday news dump mea culpa, they can’t do shit right:

101 bratwurst  Dec 5, 2014 2:42:00pm
102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:43:16pm

re: #101 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

How much is it now?

103 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 2:43:35pm

re: #99 Justanotherhuman

My only sociology course in college was “self-paced”. I decided at that time I wasn’t going to go the full monty of majoring in it, because there were always assumptions in the questions.

There are assumptions everywhere, even in the hard sciences.

The good scientist knows how to be aware of them and take them into account and makes allowances for correcting if something happens later to show that they were wrong.

104 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:44:03pm

Statement of University of Virginia President Teresa A. Sullivan
DECEMBER 5, 2014

news.virginia.edu

105 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 2:44:44pm

re: #102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

It’s under $3.00/gallon in some parts of Orange County.

106 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:45:16pm

re: #102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

How much is it now?

I saw $2.54/gal here in NC today. Less, or more, elsewhere. Natl avg is, I think, around $2.65/gal.

107 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 2:46:53pm

re: #105 Higgs Boson’s Mate

It’s under $3.00/gallon in some parts of Orange County.

Similar for the Bay Area. I’ve payed around $3/gallon the last two fill-ups, and Orange County is going to be about the only place in CA that’s more expensive.

EDIT: By which I mean, OC and the Bay Area are consistently have some of the most expensive gasoline in the country, and we’re dropping below $3, so $2.50/gal gas is largely real.

108 bratwurst  Dec 5, 2014 2:47:26pm

re: #102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

How much is it now?

About $2.70 nationally, now well under $2.50 in a large swath of the country…including the first under $2 per gallon gas on sale in this country in about 4 and a half years.

109 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:48:31pm

re: #106 Justanotherhuman

I saw $2.54/gal here in NC today. Less, or more, elsewhere. Natl avg is, I think, around $2.65/gal.

$2.43 in Baja Alabama, which is far too low. A long siege of this will discourage conservation and retard development of alternatives.

110 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:49:29pm

re: #109 Decatur Deb

$2.43 in Baja Alabama, which is far too low. A long siege of this will discourage conservation and retard developement of alternatives.

People started buying larger vehicles and using their Hummers around here when it dipped below $3/gal.

Such is the mindset…

111 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:50:09pm

And here I thought the Hummer craze died when Bush left office.

112 Jenner7  Dec 5, 2014 2:50:30pm

re: #110 Justanotherhuman

I don’t get that. You have to figure it would eventually go back up over time. Stupid buy, if you ask me.

113 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 2:52:54pm

re: #27 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

So, after I retweeted that, this happened:

Followed by this tweet that was deleted after it showed up in my mentions:

sigh….

114 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:52:55pm
115 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 2:53:55pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

So would this mean that even the denial that the alleged rapist was ever a member of the fraternity could simply be a CYA move?

I doubt that. Too easy to ask for membership data during discovery in any sort of lawsuit.

And, personally, if the internal investigation process turned up criminal wrongdoing I would advocate turning over that information to law enforcement. Not as a CYA move (re: discovery above), but because that is what the good citizen should do.

116 dog philosopher  Dec 5, 2014 2:54:17pm

Microsoft’s Cortana Learns French, Italian, German, Spanish

more artificial stupidity as we regress farther and farther into the future

117 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:54:29pm

re: #109 Decatur Deb

$2.43 in Baja Alabama, which is far too low. A long siege of this will discourage conservation and retard development of alternatives.

It may also discourage Putin, so there’s that.

118 TedStriker  Dec 5, 2014 2:55:16pm

re: #102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

How much is it now?

Here in Nashville a couple of days ago, I topped off for $2.36/gallon, but it’s a bit of an outlier; the average price for 87 octane regular where I am usually driving seems to be in the $2.45-2.50/gallon range, not including affinity program discounts.

119 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 2:55:44pm

re: #102 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

How much is it now?

Was $2.59 at the local gas station here in the backwoods yesterday.

120 Amory Blaine  Dec 5, 2014 2:56:00pm

Gas prices are falling. This means it’s time to shit-can the Prius and get the whole family some SUV’s. Rolling coal baby!!!!

///

121 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 2:56:27pm

re: #112 Jenner7

I don’t get that. You have to figure it would eventually go back up over time. Stupid buy, if you ask me.

Plenty of stupid people around here. Rednecks with money, I call ‘em, which proves my thought that you don’t need intelligence, just chutzpah, to make it.

If not a Hummer, a ginormous F350 or something similar. For looks, not work.

122 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 2:56:39pm

re: #117 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

It may also discourage Putin, so there’s that.

True. Do you see a break point where he decides to spend more time with his family?

123 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 2:57:34pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

True. Do you see a break point where he decides to spend more time with his family?

Don’t ask me :)

124 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 2:58:44pm

re: #115 Feline Fearless Leader

I doubt that. Too easy to ask for membership data during discovery in any sort of lawsuit.

And, personally, if the internal investigation process turned up criminal wrongdoing I would advocate turning over that information to law enforcement. Not as a CYA move (re: discovery above), but because that is what the good citizen should do.

Sure. The national fraternity organization will cooperate fully with law enforcement and will throw the guy under the bus. And when they’re talking to the court and during discovery, they will tell the truth about this guy’s membership status. However, that’s going to be months from now, and the question is whether their PR team thought it better to lie now and look a little better during this part of the storm. By the time that happens, attention will have moved on enough that the story about them lying in a PR letter won’t get much scrutiny.

125 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 3:01:44pm

re: #94 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

And another reporter with advanced grammatical skills (lying down/ not laying down).

I share your peckish mood from #67!

126 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 3:02:23pm

re: #124 3eff Jeff

Sure. The national fraternity organization will cooperate fully with law enforcement and will throw the guy under the bus. And when they’re talking to the court and during discovery, they will tell the truth about this guy’s membership status. However, that’s going to be months from now, and the question is whether their PR team thought it better to lie now and look a little better during this part of the storm. By the time that happens, attention will have moved on enough that the story about them lying in a PR letter won’t get much scrutiny.

At what place in the local chapter’s hierarchy, undergraduate or alumni/local corporation board, do you start finding people with principles, education, etc. that believe in good citizen behavior and not simply covering up?

127 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 3:04:47pm

re: #105 Higgs Boson’s Mate

It’s under $3.00/gallon in some parts of Orange County.

Paid $2.49 earlier today in South Carolina—actually saw it for $2.43 at another station.

128 TedStriker  Dec 5, 2014 3:06:08pm

re: #110 Justanotherhuman

People started buying larger vehicles and using their Hummers around here when it dipped below $3/gal.

Such is the mindset…

re: #111 Justanotherhuman

And here I thought the Hummer craze died when Bush left office.

re: #112 Jenner7

I don’t get that. You have to figure it would eventually go back up over time. Stupid buy, if you ask me.

We’re talking about people that seem to be overwhelmingly within a demographic that made “rollin’ coal” a real thing; they don’t give a shit about conservation or AGW or leaving the Earth better than they found it, they’re all about “fuck everyone else, I’ve got mine!”

Part of me is just waiting for a giant rock hurtling in from space to solve all of our problems…

129 Kragar  Dec 5, 2014 3:07:50pm
130 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 3:09:01pm

re: #126 Feline Fearless Leader

At what place in the local chapter’s hierarchy, undergraduate or alumni/local corporation board, do you start finding people with principles, education, etc. that believe in good citizen behavior and not simply covering up?

From reading up on how fraternities deal with negligent death lawsuits (kids fall off of unsafe balconies and windows and die at a disturbing rate), I’m pretty sure they don’t exist.

As noted above, fraternities nearly died out in the 70s. Why? Because they weren’t cool enough. My Dad was a fraternity member in the late 60s. It was a mellow, hippy frat, and actually a cool thing with decent human beings involved. But, that period was a huge decline in membership, and thus in dues payments to national organizations. The Greek System turned this around by turning Animal House into a documentary. And during this devil’s bargain all of them realized they were not legally viable if they behaved with any sort of integrity. They were not financially viable if they didn’t do this.

So, I expect that over three decades of bad incentives has properly weeded out the decent human beings from any significant leadership position.

131 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 3:10:39pm

Putting on my more than 30 years as a professional journalist hat here, RS totally screwed up with this.

There is NO FECKING WAY I would have ever allowed an article to be anywhere near as completely unvetted as that one was.

Please note that I am NOT saying that “Jackie” lied or was making stuff up, but right off the bat with her setting the conditions of no names for something purporting to be “investigative reporting” put every potential liability on RS.

Most of my work in the last 20 years has been as a copy editor, which means I want to know EVERY source for a story. Even if we’re not publishing that information, I want to make sure that I, as an editor, and my organization, that has a reputation for accuracy, are on exceedingly solid ground before a single word sees the light of day.

We may have anonymous sources in a published story, but I damned sure know who that anonymous source is and have verified ALL of the information we are printing as fact.

Guess I’m just too old school…

132 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 3:12:49pm

re: #131 Backwoods_Sleuth

So you won’t be taking that gig at The Intercept?

133 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 3:13:07pm

re: #131 Backwoods_Sleuth

Hear, hear!

134 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:13:11pm

re: #128 TedStriker

We’re talking about people that seem to be overwhelmingly within a demographic that made “rollin’ coal” a real thing; they don’t give a shit about conservation or AGW or leaving the Earth better than they found it, they’re all about “fuck everyone else, I’ve got mine!”

It’s the mindset of the Duggar/Quiverfull crowd, too. “If I can afford them, I should have as many kids as I want.”

Except in reality, those people are sucking off more than one tit.

135 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 3:13:29pm

re: #132 Decatur Deb

So you won’t be taking that gig at The Intercept?

I don’t want to get anywhere near a chance of getting GG cooties.
I hear it’s fatal…

136 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 3:14:54pm

If I seem to be a bit down on fraternities, it’s because I graduated from college in 2005. When I was in school, these organizations had reached their current form, and shortly before I started school, there was a notorious incident at my alma mater. It involved a pledge committing suicide after a hazing incident involving bestiality.

Frat parties were not safe places for women, and my [female] friends knew it and freely talked about it. And my school was not particularly known for having especially bad fraternities. Greek row was just average-bad.

137 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 3:15:30pm

re: #131 Backwoods_Sleuth

You would think too that a reporter who really wanted to make a difference in this area and not just a big name for herself would also want to do due diligence to make sure things were solid before publishing.

What has happened instead is going to be a big step back for dealing with sexual assault, both on campus and off. Because once again, we have a high profile story where the main takeaway for the low-information viewer is going to be “it was false.”

138 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 3:15:56pm

re: #136 3eff Jeff

It involved a pledge committing suicide after a hazing incident involving bestiality.

8/

139 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:16:02pm

re: #135 Backwoods_Sleuth

I don’t want to get anywhere near a chance of getting GG cooties.
I hear it’s fatal…

Watch out, Betsy Reed.

“We are ecstatic that Betsy Reed, the Executive Editor of the Nation since 2006, will be our new editor-in-chief, beginning January 5.”

firstlook.org

140 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 3:17:35pm

re: #128 TedStriker

We’re talking about people that seem to be overwhelmingly within a demographic that made “rollin’ coal” a real thing; they don’t give a shit about conservation or AGW or leaving the Earth better than they found it, they’re all about “fuck everyone else, I’ve got mine!”

Part of me is just waiting for a giant rock hurtling in from space to solve all of our problems…

My brother-in-law had never heard of rollin’ coal, so I showed him the Colbert piece on it—and then I found out he (the BIL) had never heard of truck nuts either. He was fascinated by both concepts!

Comedy Central Video

141 EPR-radar  Dec 5, 2014 3:18:25pm

re: #130 3eff Jeff

From reading up on how fraternities deal with negligent death lawsuits (kids fall off of unsafe balconies and windows and die at a disturbing rate), I’m pretty sure they don’t exist.

As noted above, fraternities nearly died out in the 70s. Why? Because they weren’t cool enough. My Dad was a fraternity member in the late 60s. It was a mellow, hippy frat, and actually a cool thing with decent human beings involved. But, that period was a huge decline in membership, and thus in dues payments to national organizations. The Greek System turned this around by turning Animal House into a documentary. And during this devil’s bargain all of them realized they were not legally viable if they behaved with any sort of integrity. They were not financially viable if they didn’t do this.

So, I expect that over three decades of bad incentives has properly weeded out the decent human beings from any significant leadership position.

It is disturbing how well this summary applies to many US institutions of far greater significance than the Greek system in colleges.

Scrapping integrity to reap financial rewards appears to be the new normal in many industries, particularly the financial sector.

142 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 3:18:49pm

re: #139 Justanotherhuman

Watch out, Betsy Reed.

“We are ecstatic that Betsy Reed, the Executive Editor of the Nation since 2006, will be our new editor-in-chief, beginning January 5.”

firstlook.org

I could make really good money these days, but I’m burdened with ethics, a conscience, and an old school concept of journalism.

143 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:19:28pm

re: #140 BeachDem

My brother-in-law had never heard of rollin’ coal, so I showed him the Colbert piece on it—and then I found out he (the BIL) had never heard of truck nuts either. He was fascinated by both concepts!

[Embedded content]

My grandson, to quote:

“Nice truck you have there! Too bad about your penis.”

144 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 3:19:50pm

Zombie in the wire.

145 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 3:19:51pm

re: #139 Justanotherhuman

Watch out, Betsy Reed.

“We are ecstatic that Betsy Reed, the Executive Editor of the Nation since 2006, will be our new editor-in-chief, beginning January 5.”

firstlook.org

That rag? Meh.

thenation.com
thenation.com

146 makeitstop  Dec 5, 2014 3:19:57pm

re: #91 Justanotherhuman

And yes, there is still a double standard. “Boys will be boys.”

And, “We can’t allow this incident to ruin a young man’s career.”

I started reading the RS story, and it seems that the friends that rescued the victim decided against taking her to the hospital, because ‘she;d be the girl who cried rape and we’ll never get invited to any campus parties.’

I stopped reading at that point.

147 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:20:51pm

re: #142 Backwoods_Sleuth

I could make really good money these days, but I’m burdened with ethics, a conscience, and an old school concept of journalism.

I don’t expect her to last very long, once baptized in the Greenwald slime.

148 EPR-radar  Dec 5, 2014 3:20:56pm

re: #140 BeachDem

Truck nuts will be perfect decorations for an upcoming GOP national convention. The 2028 convention sounds about right for this level of degeneration.

149 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 3:22:16pm

re: #141 EPR-radar

It is disturbing how well this summary applies to many US institutions of far greater significance than the Greek system in colleges.

Scrapping integrity to reap financial rewards appears to be the new normal in many industries, particularly the financial sector.

A lot of the networking that happens amongst the leadership of those institutions happens between fraternity brothers.

150 Amory Blaine  Dec 5, 2014 3:23:05pm

re: #148 EPR-radar

They could be worn next to their flag pledge pins on their suits.

151 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:23:22pm

re: #146 makeitstop

I started reading the RS story, and it seems that the friends that rescued the victim decided against taking her to the hospital, because ‘she;d be the girl who cried rape and we’ll never get invited to any campus parties.’

I stopped reading at that point.

Oh, hell. She certainly needs better “friends”.

152 EPR-radar  Dec 5, 2014 3:26:52pm

re: #149 3eff Jeff

A lot of the networking that happens amongst the leadership of those institutions happens between fraternity brothers.

Indeed, as noted upthread at #89 by DecaturDeb.

Isn’t it just wonderful that such early networking opportunities happen in organizations that often serve as rape facilitators? I’m sure that’s ever so enlightening on the issues. //// to infinity and beyond

153 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 3:27:03pm
For nearly 10 years, mainstream press reporting, editorials and op-ed articles have increasingly portrayed Putin as a czar-like “autocrat,” or alternatively a “KGB thug,” who imposed a “rollback of democratic reforms” under way in Russia when he succeeded Boris Yeltsin as president in 2000. He installed instead a “venal regime” that has permitted “corruptionism,” encouraged the assassination of a “growing number” of journalists and carried out the “killing of political opponents.”

… there is no evidence that any of these allegations against him are true, or at least entirely true.

Fuck you, Stephen F. Cohen, and fuck your “the nation”.

154 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:27:50pm

Hackers Threaten Sony Employees in New Email: ‘Your Family Will Be in Danger’

variety.com

“Hackers have struck again at Sony Pictures Entertainment, threatening employees of the studio in a new email obtained by Variety.

“The GOP group, which hacked Sony on Nov. 24, said it planned to eradicate all of Sony Pictures Entertainment.

“Employees were told to turn off their handheld devices after receiving the message, sources tell Variety.” More

155 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 3:28:09pm

channeling Monty Python…
“and now for something completely different…”

(seen on my FB page)

156 EPR-radar  Dec 5, 2014 3:28:44pm

re: #150 Amory Blaine

They could be worn next to their flag pledge pins on their suits.

That might be a bit too understated. A full-size set on a necklace may be viewed as necessary by then.

157 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 3:31:24pm

re: #136 3eff Jeff

If I seem to be a bit down on fraternities, it’s because I graduated from college in 2005. When I was in school, these organizations had reached their current form, and shortly before I started school, there was a notorious incident at my alma mater. It involved a pledge committing suicide after a hazing incident involving bestiality.

Frat parties were not safe places for women, and my [female] friends knew it and freely talked about it. And my school was not particularly known for having especially bad fraternities. Greek row was just average-bad.

Opinions tend to reflect experiences. Mine regarding fraternities from 1981 to the present day have followed a somewhat different course. Said course has included stints as a chapter alumni officer, national-level volunteer, and member of a fraternity’s national board. And a lot of in-fighting over issues during that period.

I’ve read about a lot of bad incidents, and a number of close calls as well. However, I have also met and worked with a lot of dedicated men and women whose goals are pretty lofty towards helping young people become better people. Tempered by a lot of going in circles since the undergraduate membership of a chapter turns over in 4-5 years and the same lessons taught, and arguments fought, again and again and again.

158 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 3:34:26pm

Just a heads up—A Tribute to Bruce Springsteen is on PBS tonight.

Musicians pay tribute to Bruce Springsteen during a concert hosted by Jon Stewart and featuring performances by Elton John, Mumford and Sons, Kenny Chesney, Alabama Shakes, Jackson Browne, Ben Harper, Emmylou Harris, Faith Hill, Jim James and Juanes. The lineup also includes John Legend, Natalie Maines, Tim McGraw, Tom Morello, Patti Smith, Mavis Staples, Sting, Eddie Vedder and Neil Young.

159 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 3:34:42pm

I just returned from a business trip to Texas and I have a head cold. The agita I’m getting as a result of this UVa story is not helping. Also not helping: flashbacks to the early 1980s and how there didn’t seem to be anything which could be done about my university’s frat culture.

160 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:38:37pm

re: #158 BeachDem

Just a heads up—A Tribute to Bruce Springsteen is on PBS tonight.

Musicians pay tribute to Bruce Springsteen during a concert hosted by Jon Stewart and featuring performances by Elton John, Mumford and Sons, Kenny Chesney, Alabama Shakes, Jackson Browne, Ben Harper, Emmylou Harris, Faith Hill, Jim James and Juanes. The lineup also includes John Legend, Natalie Maines, Tim McGraw, Tom Morello, Patti Smith, Mavis Staples, Sting, Eddie Vedder and Neil Young.

That’s quite a crowd. Good for Bruce. I wasn’t raised with his music but he’s a huge influence on one of my favorite modern groups, Gaslight Anthem and he of course is one of the great progressives in the rock industry and from what I understand a genuinely decent guy.

161 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:39:54pm

re: #131 Backwoods_Sleuth

Putting on my more than 30 years as a professional journalist hat here, RS totally screwed up with this.

There is NO FECKING WAY I would have ever allowed an article to be anywhere near as completely unvetted as that one was.

Please note that I am NOT saying that “Jackie” lied or was making stuff up, but right off the bat with her setting the conditions of no names for something purporting to be “investigative reporting” put every potential liability on RS.

Most of my work in the last 20 years has been as a copy editor, which means I want to know EVERY source for a story. Even if we’re not publishing that information, I want to make sure that I, as an editor, and my organization, that has a reputation for accuracy, are on exceedingly solid ground before a single word sees the light of day.

We may have anonymous sources in a published story, but I damned sure know who that anonymous source is and have verified ALL of the information we are printing as fact.

Guess I’m just too old school…

We need more journalists like you. Journalism in my observations too often seems to these days about who knows who and stuff. Lots of nepotism there.

162 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 3:40:27pm

re: #158 BeachDem

Just a heads up—A Tribute to Bruce Springsteen is on PBS tonight.

Musicians pay tribute to Bruce Springsteen during a concert hosted by Jon Stewart and featuring performances by Elton John, Mumford and Sons, Kenny Chesney, Alabama Shakes, Jackson Browne, Ben Harper, Emmylou Harris, Faith Hill, Jim James and Juanes. The lineup also includes John Legend, Natalie Maines, Tim McGraw, Tom Morello, Patti Smith, Mavis Staples, Sting, Eddie Vedder and Neil Young.

Just checked—not on Alabama Public TV channels. Must be saving a slot for the Duck Dynasty Christmas Special.

163 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:40:45pm

Wowser.

164 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:41:52pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

Just checked—not on Alabama Public TV channels. Must be saving a slot for the Duck Dynasty Christmas Special.

Ah is that the one where multi-millionaire Phil Robertson shames us for not having the same piety that he does?

165 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 3:42:58pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

Ah is that the one where multi-millionaire Phil Robertson shames us for not having the same piety that he does?

I’ll take VB’s pie over his piety any time, any where. Thank you very much.

166 Kragar  Dec 5, 2014 3:43:04pm

re: #160 HappyWarrior

That’s quite a crowd. Good for Bruce. I wasn’t raised with his music but he’s a huge influence on one of my favorite modern groups, Gaslight Anthem and he of course is one of the great progressives in the rock industry and from what I understand a genuinely decent guy.

He’s been pretty funny with some of the stuff he’s done with Jimmy Fallon

Youtube Video

167 3eff Jeff  Dec 5, 2014 3:43:05pm

re: #157 Feline Fearless Leader

And I should be clear: when I made the ‘lawful evil’ comment above. Anymore, ‘evil’ really means other humans making decisions I disagree with.

The greek organizations had developed into a really broken system by the time I encountered it. (My college band got denied a spot in a talent show because our anti-daterape audition song was “too controversial”; I did not realize this was a debate with two sides until that incident. The interfraternity council had a significant number of representatives amongst the organizers of the show.) At the same time, I knew decent human beings who were fraternity members (I had a really good high school friend join the frat which had the suicide incident).

I’ve also been a part of companies that do things that I strongly disagree with, and I’ve had to personally partake in those things. (I’m ideologically opposed to DRM. I helped maintain a DRM system for a previous employer.) We’re humans. We’re complicated. So, I do believe you, even if I am taking a hard line on the other side in this thread.

168 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 3:43:47pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

Ah is that the one where multi-millionaire Phil Robertson shames us for not having the same piety that he does?

Three bearded wise men bring the infant gifts of Skoal, tabasco, and a Saiga 12-gauge.

169 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:45:32pm

re: #161 HappyWarrior

We need more journalists like you. Journalism in my observations too often seems to these days about who knows who and stuff. Lots of nepotism there.

Or just plain old cronyism, too.

170 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:46:41pm

re: #166 Kragar

He’s been pretty funny with some of the stuff he’s done with Jimmy Fallon

[Embedded content]

Video

Having grown up with Neil’s music, I just love Jimmy’s Neil impersonation.

171 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:46:58pm

re: #165 Feline Fearless Leader

I’ll take VB’s pie over his piety any time, any where. Thank you very much.

Yep a lot more sweet and a lot less judgmental.

172 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 3:48:17pm

Evening dogwalk. BBL

173 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 3:52:04pm

Well, she sounds nice…

///

Islamophobic Teacher Who Wanted Obama To Die From Ebola Resigns With Three Months’ Pay

Angela Box, a third-grade teacher of mostly minority children in Houston, has resigned and will receive three months’ pay after she made controversial and bigoted remarks in November about Muslims and President Obama. Box is a regular guest on ‘Tommy’s Garage,’ a late-night conservative political talk show in the Houston area. The former teacher blamed community activists and The New Black Panthers, among others, for her having to resign.

During one broadcast of the show, Box said that “goat f***ing Muslims, and oh, boy f***ing Muslims, are the evil of the world. She also asked during the broadcast, “Can’t Ebola just take one for the team and take out Obama?” Muslims and Obama weren’t the only ones that she targeted. She also said she was wearing a Mexican flag as a thong.

174 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:53:14pm

Thousands marching down Mass Ave chanting “no justice no peace no racist police” and “shut it down.”

instagram.com

175 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 3:53:50pm

re: #139 Justanotherhuman

Watch out, Betsy Reed.

“We are ecstatic that Betsy Reed, the Executive Editor of the Nation since 2006, will be our new editor-in-chief, beginning January 5.”

firstlook.org

To be followed within a matter of months by, “First Look announces the departure of Executive Editor Betsy Reed.” After reading Jonathan Chait’s article about the goings on at TNR I suspect that the Silicon Valley overlords’ statements about reinventing journalism are just another way of saying that they want to out-huff HuffPo and out-buzz Buzzfeed by making more money than either of them. Not that they need the money, money is just how they keep score.

176 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 3:53:54pm

re: #131 Backwoods_Sleuth

Putting on my more than 30 years as a professional journalist hat here, RS totally screwed up with this.

There is NO FECKING WAY I would have ever allowed an article to be anywhere near as completely unvetted as that one was.

Please note that I am NOT saying that “Jackie” lied or was making stuff up, but right off the bat with her setting the conditions of no names for something purporting to be “investigative reporting” put every potential liability on RS.

I absolutely understand why she didn’t want her name out there. I read the RS statement and RS put the onus right back on “Jackie.” On top of that, this woman’s name would have been dragged through the mud from here to Kingdom Come by the Fraternity Industrial Complex.

Most of my work in the last 20 years has been as a copy editor, which means I want to know EVERY source for a story. Even if we’re not publishing that information, I want to make sure that I, as an editor, and my organization, that has a reputation for accuracy, are on exceedingly solid ground before a single word sees the light of day.

We may have anonymous sources in a published story, but I damned sure know who that anonymous source is and have verified ALL of the information we are printing as fact.

Guess I’m just too old school…

Just a question: Does that include going and getting some sort of quote or denial from the person presumably identified as the rapist, even if the information isn’t published? “Some people” seem to think RS’s screwup included not going to the horse’s mouth.

That said, I went to the University of Texas at Austin in the early 1980s and it had a “vibrant” Greek culture. (My bias: I joined a co-op after my first year there and we were none too tolerant of frat boys, but we’d happily take their money when they came to our amazing parties.) And yeah, we heard stuff…women AND men getting sexually assaulted by members of fraternities. And not just sexual assault, there were the usual alcohol poisoning incidents involving pledges and frat members, along with the related injuries and deaths. (I won’t even touch the racism which is still very apparent if you peruse the pledge classes of the top-shelf frats and sororities even today.) So “Greek culture,” IMHO, has been problematic to me for a very long time, and IMHO, was problematic for a long time before I ever heard of UT-Austin.

177 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 3:54:07pm

So I picked this up this afternoon.

Out last week
178 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 3:57:07pm

re: #173 Backwoods_Sleuth

Well, she sounds nice…

///

Islamophobic Teacher Who Wanted Obama To Die From Ebola Resigns With Three Months’ Pay

She kept saying she wasn’t resigning.

Must have gotten another “offer”.

khou.com

179 HappyWarrior  Dec 5, 2014 3:57:38pm

re: #178 Justanotherhuman

She kept saying she wasn’t resigning.

Must have gotten another “offer”.

khou.com

What scholar at the Heritage Foundation?

180 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 3:57:56pm

re: #167 3eff Jeff

And I should be clear: when I made the ‘lawful evil’ comment above. Anymore, ‘evil’ really means other humans making decisions I disagree with.

The greek organizations had developed into a really broken system by the time I encountered it. (My college band got denied a spot in a talent show because our anti-daterape audition song was “too controversial”; I did not realize this was a debate with two sides until that incident. The interfraternity council had a significant number of representatives amongst the organizers of the show.) At the same time, I knew decent human beings who were fraternity members (I had a really good high school friend join the frat which had the suicide incident).

I’ve also been a part of companies that do things that I strongly disagree with, and I’ve had to personally partake in those things. (I’m ideologically opposed to DRM. I helped maintain a DRM system for a previous employer.) We’re humans. We’re complicated. So, I do believe you, even if I am taking a hard line on the other side in this thread.

I think my main point in engaging is to represent that there are decent people in the fraternal organizations trying to do the right thing. And some of the organizations are trying to improve things at all levels. There is internal resistance, and also complacency at times. And there are a lot of broken things as well.

Fraternities are a bit of a poster child for a lot of things wrong in our youth and college cultures. And they stick out particularly well since if you ask them what they are about you can get lots of nice words about principles, etc. Which are the opposite of many of their observed behaviors.

I definitely do not hold up the fraternity I belong to as a completely stellar example. We’ve had our incidents,* and there has been complacency and resistance to changing behaviors and trying to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

* - e.g. hazing incidents (but no deaths), alcohol abuse, etc. But I’ve also seen chapters closed and some serious work done attempting to stamp this out and make clear there are things that the membership should not tolerate. The one member death I know of that was not related to an automobile accident is a bit bizarre to describe.

181 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 3:59:56pm

re: #176 dholmes32

What if you didn’t belong to a “top shelf” fraternity?

182 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 4:00:25pm

re: #180 Feline Fearless Leader

The one member death I know of that was not related to an automobile accident is a bit bizarre to describe.

Take your time, I’m listening.

183 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:00:26pm

re: #176 dholmes32

Did you miss the part where I said as an editor I want to know every source and verify everything in a story, even if I keep things anonymous? Have you missed the other old school reporters and editors who actually defied court orders to reveal sources and actually went to fecking jail???

I’m here to tell you, in the last three decades people have approached my reporters with “hot must tell stories”, and I do NOT have a problem with that, but I sure as hell am NOT going to allow unverified stuff to be reported as fact.

If my organization is going to publish something as fact, then I damned well demand to know where those facts are coming from and be able to verify them.

Sorry if that bothers you.

BTW, it shouldn’t make any difference, but I’m a rape survivor.

184 klystron  Dec 5, 2014 4:00:35pm

It’s Friday.

185 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:01:19pm

re: #173 Backwoods_Sleuth

Well, she sounds nice…

///

Islamophobic Teacher Who Wanted Obama To Die From Ebola Resigns With Three Months’ Pay

*sigh* There’s a lot of talk about the resegregation of schools. The Houston Independent School District (HISD) never had a chance to ever get DEsegregated because of the way school districts are organized in the Houston region. The large, mostly minority HISD is surrounded by a ring of mostly-white, mostly middle class school districts. That was the way it was when I graduated from a high school in one of the ring districts in the late 1970s, and as far as I know, nothing has changed in the 35+ years since then.

The attached map is slightly inaccurate. The North Forest ISD (which was arguably the worst school district in the Houston region) was absorbed into HISD in 2013.

Rings upon rings.
186 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 4:03:44pm

re: #184 klystron

First one I’ve seen in a while that beats our Seventies favorite “Hi, Bob.”

187 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:04:37pm

OK…I have to step away for a while after that last thing.

just. wow.

188 Charles Johnson  Dec 5, 2014 4:05:25pm
189 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:06:33pm

re: #181 Feline Fearless Leader

What if you didn’t belong to a “top shelf” fraternity?

When I went to UT-Austin in the early ’80s, the fraternities were very segregated. And not just by race. There waswere the white Christian frats (the majority), the handful of black frats (the minority), and a couple of specifically Jewish frats. I confess to only looking at a few frat/sorority web pages last week so I can’t say if this is the case NOW, but it sure looked like it to me. A more scientific study may prove me wrong (and I’d be HAPPY to be proven wrong in this instance.)

My sister went to the University of Houston a few years after me and she said the sororities there were at least somewhat integrated. She rushed but decided not to join because she didn’t have time in between school and work.

Edited to correct tense. I’m going to blame the head cold.

190 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 4:11:49pm

Sometimes women are just wrong.

twitter.com

191 Dave In Austin  Dec 5, 2014 4:12:58pm

Saw above about gas prices. I paid 2.39 in Austin this morning. 2.34 in Victoria, TX last weekend.

192 Charles Johnson  Dec 5, 2014 4:13:56pm

The Ginger Avenger is trying to get noticed again.

193 goddamnedfrank  Dec 5, 2014 4:14:38pm

re: #176 dholmes32

Just a question: Does that include going and getting some sort of quote or denial from the person presumably identified as the rapist, even if the information isn’t published? “Some people” seem to think RS’s screwup included not going to the horse’s mouth.

I don’t really understand deliberately avoiding going to the accused, even if the reporter views it as a pro forma exercise with a denial being a virtual certainty. That’s how it’s done, Rolling Stone didn’t have to name names, but they absolutely should have contacted the other parties involved and reported their responses to the allegations.

For one thing investigating those responses then becomes part of the story, leading to further information and allowing RS to place the veracity of the accused under the microscope as well. Instead it we’re left with this nebulous shit show, where they’re now issuing a retraction based on unstated issues and inconsistencies they claim exist in accuser’s version of events. All RS has done is totally muddy up the waters, the exact opposite goal of responsible journalism.

194 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:15:16pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

The Ginger Avenger is trying to get noticed again.

I’m cleaning catboxes while I calm down…

195 compound_Idaho  Dec 5, 2014 4:15:55pm

I graduated from college in 1983. At my school, fraternities were not a big thing. Kind of for losers. The dorms I think were unusual. Great files for any class on campus. You were obligated to add to, then pass on to the next guy that needed it. Not a lot of competition within your department/major. Everyone was just trying to get out alive.

196 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:16:45pm

re: #183 Backwoods_Sleuth

Did you miss the part where I said as an editor I want to know every source and verify everything in a story, even if I keep things anonymous? Have you missed the other old school reporters and editors who actually defied court orders to reveal sources and actually went to fecking jail???

I’m here to tell you, in the last three decades people have approached my reporters with “hot must tell stories”, and I do NOT have a problem with that, but I sure as hell am NOT going to allow unverified stuff to be reported as fact.

If my organization is going to publish something as fact, then I damned well demand to know where those facts are coming from and be able to verify them.

Sorry if that bothers you.

BTW, it shouldn’t make any difference, but I’m a rape survivor.

I understand your position, but I am of the opinion that the fewer people who know identities in sensitive stories like this, the fewer people who may be inclined to spill the beans. I would have no problem with the reporter and his/her editor knowing. Extending that to the copy editor is, IMHO, problematic. But that is just my personal opinion.

197 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 4:17:49pm

Since when do teachers have to have public relations/media groups working for them?

I truly dislike libertarians.

198 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 4:17:52pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

The Ginger Avenger is trying to get noticed again.

Bless his little tantrum throwing heart. He really has gone from zero to fringe in almost record time, I guess Wile E. Coyote level geniuses can do that.

199 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 4:19:04pm

re: #189 dholmes32

When I went to UT-Austin in the early ’80s, the fraternities were very segregated. And not just by race. There was the white Christian frats (the majority), the handful of black frats (the minority), and a couple of specifically Jewish frats. I confess to only looking at a few frat/sorority web pages last week so I can’t say if this is the case NOW, but it sure looked like it to me. A more scientific study may prove me wrong (and I’d be HAPPY to be proven wrong in this instance.)

My sister went to the University of Houston a few years after me and she said the sororities there were at least somewhat integrated. She rushed but decided not to join because she didn’t have time in between school and work.

There’s also a bit of variation with a particular fraternity’s different chapters. They might be the “geek” fraternity on one campus, the “jock” fraternity on another, and so forth.

I think what I was learning towards is whether the fraternity scene at UT-A was essentially ruled was 6-8 of the largest/strongest fraternities and then there were a set of small fry that just scraped by - possibly changing out periodically as one folded and another one colonized to take its place. And where they any different from the larger ones other than being wannabes?

Per there being self-segregation among the fraternities that doesn’t surprise me. Easier to recruit likes to join your organization - and that split could potentially be for positive reasons as well as negative ones.

200 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 4:19:10pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

The Ginger Avenger is trying to get noticed again.

Let me guess:

“Breaking: Huge death toll as Socialist zeppelin crashes in New Jersey.”

201 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 4:20:34pm

re: #200 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Prolly more like:

BREAKING: wind.

202 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:21:02pm

re: #196 dholmes32

I understand your position, but I am of the opinion that the fewer people who know identities in sensitive stories like this, the fewer people who may be inclined to spill the beans. I would have no problem with the reporter and his/her editor knowing. Extending that to the copy editor is, IMHO, problematic. But that is just my personal opinion.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
As an editor and representative of my organization, I’m responsible for what we report.
My bottom line is that I’m the one who has to ultimately defend the story and I’m not going to be held responsible for allegations that can not be confirmed.

Call me crazy, but I like accuracy.

And I have no idea what you think a copy editor does. Here’s a hint: copy editors verify facts = fact checker. Totally different from a proofreader.

203 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 4:21:09pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

Just checked—not on Alabama Public TV channels. Must be saving a slot for the Duck Dynasty Christmas Special.

Hmmm—well, it was shot in 2013, so maybe they’re giving each station the option of when to air it (i.e. begging week.) Here’s the wiki on the concert.

It was filmed in 2013 at the MusiCares Person of the Year ceremony to honor and pay tribute to musician Bruce Springsteen for his artistic achievement in the music industry and dedication to philanthropy. The ceremony was hosted by Jon Stewart and features many performance by musicians who have long been fans and admirers of Springsteen’s body of work. Springsteen and the E Street Band concluded the ceremony with their own performance.

en.wikipedia.org

204 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 4:21:31pm

re: #201 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

Prolly more like:

BREAKING: wind.

I don’t think that wind will level the mountains of the Earth as much as Chuckie thinks it will.
///

205 goddamnedfrank  Dec 5, 2014 4:21:36pm

re: #196 dholmes32

I understand your position, but I am of the opinion that the fewer people who know identities in sensitive stories like this, the fewer people who may be inclined to spill the beans. I would have no problem with the reporter and his/her editor knowing. Extending that to the copy editor is, IMHO, problematic. But that is just my personal opinion.

??? Copy editors are a publication’s firewall. They can’t ensure accuracy if you make them wear blinders.

206 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:21:47pm

re: #193 goddamnedfrank

I don’t really understand deliberately avoiding going to the accused, even if the reporter views it as a pro forma exercise with a denial being a virtual certainty. That’s how it’s done, Rolling Stone didn’t have to name names, but they absolutely should have contacted the other parties involved and reported their responses to the allegations.

For one thing investigating those responses then becomes part of the story, leading to further information and allowing RS to place the veracity of the accused under the microscope as well. Instead it we’re left with this nebulous shit show, where they’re now issuing a retraction based on unstated issues and inconsistencies they claim exist in accuser’s version of events. All RS has done is totally muddy up the waters, the exact opposite goal of responsible journalism.

Do we go to burglars and bank robbers to get their opinion? Or is rape somehow different, in that we must get an opinion from the accused person, particularly when the person is not named?

What makes this story problematic is that the person at the center of the story insisted on anonymity (and with good reason, IMHO). If RS wasn’t able to handle the anonymity aspect, then maybe RS shouldn’t have gone with the story. I have to say the story didn’t change my opinion of fraternities, but only confirmed the really low opinion I have had of them since before the first day of school in the Fall 1980 semester at UT-Austin.

207 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:22:10pm

re: #205 goddamnedfrank

exactly.

208 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:23:01pm

re: #206 dholmes32

Do we go to burglars and bank robbers to get their opinion? Or is rape somehow different, in that we must get an opinion from the accused person, particularly when the person is not named?

What makes this story problematic is that the person at the center of the story insisted on anonymity (and with good reason, IMHO). If RS wasn’t able to handle the anonymity aspect, then maybe RS shouldn’t have gone with the story. I have to say the story didn’t change my opinion of fraternities, but only confirmed the really low opinion I have had of them since before the first day of school in the Fall 1980 semester at UT-Austin.

You are really misunderstanding the concept of anonymity.

209 The War TARDIS  Dec 5, 2014 4:23:42pm

re: #191 Dave In Austin

$2.19 outside my house

210 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 4:23:57pm

re: #206 dholmes32

Do we go to burglars and bank robbers to get their opinion? Or is rape somehow different, in that we must get an opinion from the accused person, particularly when the person is not named?

Um, wut? If you’re reporting about someone accusing someone else of robbery, of course you interview the other side.

Duuuh.

211 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 4:24:19pm

re: #200 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Let me guess:

“Breaking: Huge death toll as Socialist zeppelin crashes in New Jersey.”

More like:

Overly dramatic libtard Hindenberg radio reporter has juvie record for stealing licorice stick and fishing for Bluefish without a license

212 lawhawk  Dec 5, 2014 4:24:37pm

re: #201 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

Prolly more like:

BREAKING: wind bad.

213 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 4:24:46pm

re: #204 Feline Fearless Leader

I don’t think that wind will level the mountains of the Earth as much as Chuckie thinks it will.
///

Chuckie believes that his breaking wind is identical to the sound of Krishna fluting.

214 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 4:25:59pm

“The Laramore Media Group” is nothing but RW fluffers.

facebook.com

215 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:26:00pm

re: #199 Feline Fearless Leader

There’s also a bit of variation with a particular fraternity’s different chapters. They might be the “geek” fraternity on one campus, the “jock” fraternity on another, and so forth.

I think what I was learning towards is whether the fraternity scene at UT-A was essentially ruled was 6-8 of the largest/strongest fraternities and then there were a set of small fry that just scraped by - possibly changing out periodically as one folded and another one colonized to take its place. And where they any different from the larger ones other than being wannabes?

Per there being self-segregation among the fraternities that doesn’t surprise me. Easier to recruit likes to join your organization - and that split could potentially be for positive reasons as well as negative ones.

Really, I have no idea. This was back in the 1980s, and I was part of the co-op scene, which was as far as one could get from being in a fraternity. I rarely, if ever, went down into the fraternity area. Although I will confess that we did have some commonalities. I’m sure the frats budgeted to spend dues on beer at parties. So did we. (We expected to make the money back by selling it to attendees.) My co-op once voted to purchase ingredients for “special brownies.” I was the lone vote against, because I was still rather naive at the time. Today, I’d be, “Can’t partake but Heck Yes!”

216 dholmes32  Dec 5, 2014 4:28:03pm

re: #208 Backwoods_Sleuth

You are really misunderstanding the concept of anonymity.

We’ll just have to disagree. I’m thinking I’m running up against the reasons I dropped out of the UT-Austin’s bachelor of journalism program three credit hours short of the degree. (I went on to get a degree in government because it was one I could complete with only two additional semesters of work.) So I’ll just drop this here.

217 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 4:28:35pm

This would be sort of funny if the idiot hadn’t crashed into 3 other vehicles…

218 goddamnedfrank  Dec 5, 2014 4:31:00pm

re: #206 dholmes32

Do we go to burglars and bank robbers to get their opinion? Or is rape somehow different, in that we must get an opinion from the accused person, particularly when the person is not named?

Yes, we do, when they’re accused and the subject of a story either they or their legal council will almost always be asked for comment.

What makes this story problematic is that the person at the center of the story insisted on anonymity (and with good reason, IMHO).

No, that’s not what makes it problematic. That happens all the time. What makes it problematic was the insistence that the accused not be contacted and that the reporter and editors apparently didn’t vet the story adequately before publishing it.

If RS wasn’t able to handle the anonymity aspect, then maybe RS shouldn’t have gone with the story. I have to say the story didn’t change my opinion of fraternities, but only confirmed the really low opinion I have had of them since before the first day of school in the Fall 1980 semester at UT-Austin.

That’s kind of the whole problem, the story got twisted into an indictment (and subsequent acquittal) of the entire fraternity system. If they’d just focused on the goddamned story they were given, and researched that correctly before running with it then this wouldn’t have blown up in their face. Maintaining the victim’s anonymity isn’t what caused this mess, acquiescing to the demand that they not actually act like journalists was the problem.

219 Higgs Boson's Mate  Dec 5, 2014 4:32:48pm

re: #217 Justanotherhuman

This would be sort of funny if the idiot hadn’t crashed into 3 other vehicles…

[Embedded content]

There goes the commute. Poor drivers.

220 Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 5, 2014 4:32:59pm

re: #216 dholmes32

We’ll just have to disagree. I’m thinking I’m running up against the reasons I dropped out of the UT-Austin’s bachelor of journalism program three credit hours short of the degree. (I went on to get a degree in government because it was one I could complete with only two additional semesters of work.) So I’ll just drop this here.

Really, before you drop this, I have one question.
Do you really think that anonymity as far as verifying facts before publishing is OK? It’s OK in your mind for a news organization to publish unverified facts as truth?
Because that’s how your argument is sounding to me.

(Note: I am not including an agreement to keep verified sources anonymous in the published article.)

221 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 4:34:44pm

When Chuck finally does get banned for life from twitter then what for him?

His over the top tweets are the only thing that keeps his stupid website with tweets, I guess he will go into his in-laws nurse’s uniform supply industry full time and forever then?

222 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 4:37:02pm

re: #197 Justanotherhuman

Since when do teachers have to have public relations/media groups working for them?

[Embedded content]

I truly dislike libertarians.

After reading some of her twitter feed, I know if I were the parent of a third-grader, I would make damn sure my kid never got within 10 miles of that whackjob.

223 Justanotherhuman  Dec 5, 2014 4:38:52pm

re: #222 BeachDem

After reading some of her twitter feed, I know if I were the parent of a third-grader, I would make damn sure my kid never got within 10 miles of that whackjob.

Unfortunately, TX seems to be full of them.

Pity the children.

224 b.d.  Dec 5, 2014 4:38:59pm

The slow motion throwing of Obama under the bus by Schumer and all others to clear the road for Hillary is obvious, insulting and obnoxious.

It’s only going to get worse, and it’s going to get a lot worse.

225 goddamnedfrank  Dec 5, 2014 4:39:31pm

You don’t destroy a person’s anonymity by going to the person they’ve accused for comment. In a college environment the person they’ve accused goddamned well knows about the accusation, because shit like that spreads like wildfire. You maintain anonymity by not publishing either person’s name, not by refusing to do basic research.

Reporter’s aren’t Priests, you don’t go to them to keep your secrets from the world. You go to them with information in the hopes that they will publish it. You have a reasonable expectation that they will protect you as a source if you ask for that. What you don’t have is a reasonable expectation of being able to use them as a vehicle for unsubstantiated raw assertion.

226 The War TARDIS  Dec 5, 2014 4:39:55pm

re: #217 Justanotherhuman

Ok people, listen to me.

Grand Theft Auto is not a LARP.

227 Decatur Deb  Dec 5, 2014 4:40:00pm

re: #203 BeachDem

Hmmm—well, it was shot in 2013, so maybe they’re giving each station the option of when to air it (i.e. begging week.) Here’s the wiki on the concert.

It was filmed in 2013 at the MusiCares Person of the Year ceremony to honor and pay tribute to musician Bruce Springsteen for his artistic achievement in the music industry and dedication to philanthropy. The ceremony was hosted by Jon Stewart and features many performance by musicians who have long been fans and admirers of Springsteen’s body of work. Springsteen and the E Street Band concluded the ceremony with their own performance.

en.wikipedia.org

Bummer. The lineup looks like it deserves to be a DVD.

228 dog philosopher  Dec 5, 2014 4:41:23pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

The Ginger Avenger is trying to get noticed again.

ginger rogers sings ‘we’re in the money’ in pig latin

229 makeitstop  Dec 5, 2014 4:41:33pm

re: #197 Justanotherhuman

Since when do teachers have to have public relations/media groups working for them?

[Embedded content]

I truly dislike libertarians.

A definite sign that she’s angling for a media gig.

230 Feline Fearless Leader  Dec 5, 2014 4:42:04pm

re: #225 goddamnedfrank

You don’t destroy a person’s anonymity by going to the person they’ve accused for comment. In a college environment the person they’ve accused goddamned well knows about the accusation, because shit like that spreads like wildfire. You maintain anonymity by not publishing either person’s name, not by refusing to do basic research.

Reporter’s aren’t Priests, you don’t go to them to keep your secrets from the world. You go to them with information in the hopes that they will publish it. You have a reasonable expectation that they will protect you as a source if you ask for that. What you don’t have is a reasonable expectation of being able to use them as a vehicle for unsubstantiated raw assertion.

Except in modern day US politics.
///

231 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak  Dec 5, 2014 4:42:13pm

re: #225 goddamnedfrank

And if the story turns out to be false, at least you have presented both sides.

232 BeachDem  Dec 5, 2014 4:58:06pm

re: #227 Decatur Deb

Bummer. The lineup looks like it deserves to be a DVD.

Your wish, as they say, is Amazon’s command.

Musicares Person of Year: Tribute to Bruce Springsteen [Blu-ray]
Bruce Springsteen (Actor), Various (Actor), Leon Knoles (Director) Rated: NR (Not Rated) Format: Blu-ray

List Price: $19.98
Price: $14.39 Free Shipping for Prime Members
You Save: $5.59 (28%)

Blu-ray
1-Disc Version
$14.39

DVD
1-Disc Version
$11.99

amazon.com


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