Rand Paul’s Comment About Parents ‘Owning’ Children Was Not Random

Received wisdom from Murray Rothbard
Wingnuts • Views: 25,055

I hang around libertarians more often than you might guess. Some of them are even nice! But they’re rare. Mostly I hang around libertarians to better understand how political intuition can go so far off the rails for some things.

Found this on Google Images, turns out it was from a neo-Nazi blog. Not gonna credit them, that’s just gross.

Take Rand Paul on vaccines. You all probably heard (and couldn’t believe it) when he said the state doesn’t own the children, the parents own the children. Just in case you were wondering, this wasn’t some out-of-the-blue thing. The idea behind Paul’s utterance goes all the way back to the King of Asshole Libertarians himself, Murray Rothbard. In a chapter of his book The Ethics of Liberty Rothbard makes his case:

Even from birth, the parental ownership is not absolute but of a “trustee” or guardianship kind. In short, every baby as soon as it is born and is therefore no longer contained within his mother’s body possesses the right of self-ownership by virtue of being a separate entity and a potential adult. It must therefore be illegal and a violation of the child’s rights for a parent to aggress against his person by mutilating, torturing, murdering him, etc. On the other hand, the very concept of “rights” is a “negative” one, demarcating the areas of a person’s action that no man may properly interfere with. No man can therefore have a “right” to compel someone to do a positive act, for in that case the compulsion violates the right of person or property of the individual being coerced. Thus, we may say that a man has a right to his property (i.e., a right not to have his property invaded), but we cannot say that anyone has a “right” to a “living wage,” for that would mean that someone would be coerced into providing him with such a wage, and that would violate the property rights of the people being coerced. As a corollary this means that, in the free society, no man may be saddled with the legal obligation to do anything for another, since that would invade the former’s rights; the only legal obligation one man has to another is to respect the other man’s rights.

Applying our theory to parents and children, this means that a parent does not have the right to aggress against his children, but also that the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.[2] The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.[3] (Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.) This rule allows us to solve such vexing questions as: should a parent have the right to allow a deformed baby to die (e.g., by not feeding it)?[4] The answer is of course yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die. (Though, as we shall see below, in a libertarian society the existence of a free baby market will bring such “neglect” down to a minimum.)

The full excerpt (cached) was published on the Ludwig von Mises Institute’s blog Mises Daily. They also publish, annually, a post called “In Defense of Scrooge.” Because membership to the Libertarian Club comes with a free subscription to Troll Techniques Quarterly, I guess.

I think this is also a good time to point out that Rand Paul is a member of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, a group in the category of Fringe Wingnut Advocacy Organizations With Names That Sound Like Aliens Made Them Up. This is the selfsame group that denies the HIV-AIDS connection (in its very own journal, Vol. 12 No. 4 2007!), speculating on Obama’s possible use of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (cached), and, yes, scaremongering about thimerosal in vaccines (cached)!

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117 comments

1 andres  Feb 3, 2015 1:52:46am

God, what an assholish philosophy.

I would have thought that the concept of owning another human being came from the confederates.

2 Romantic Heretic  Feb 3, 2015 2:39:27am

As I’ve noted before many people choose a belief system not to be better people but so they can be dicks to others.

‘Libertarianism’ is custom made for the latter purpose.

3 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Feb 3, 2015 5:10:24am

This is all old news to me. I was introduced to Classical Libertarian philosophy during freshman year in college (like a lot of people) and read a few standard publications on the subject. At first, it made sense in regards to “personal responsibility” and all that. But after 2 weeks or so thinking about the practical applications and real world grey areas of normal life, I laughed at it and threw it in my mental garbage bin. Never did I realize this nutso philosophy would be the dominant ideology amongst Republicans 25 years later.

The notion of “personal property” solves all issues. It doesn’t matter what subject it is. Everything in life should be “Personal Property” Everything. The belief that there is some sort of “natural law” that states everything in the universe is personal property is the core of libertarianism. Natural law is nuts. The reality that all philosophies are a product of evolution and can change over time freaks Libertarians out.

4 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 7:23:36am

re: #1 andres

God, what an assholish philosophy.

I would have thought that the concept of owning another human being came from the confederates.

NO, I think it came from the Bible . .

5 The Vicious Babushka  Feb 3, 2015 7:23:42am

WTFITS I just can’t even. These people are completely fucked up. That is all.

6 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 7:28:33am
How can we speak of Democracy or Freedom when from the very beginning of life we mould the child to undergo tyranny, to obey a dictator? How can we expect democracy when we have reared slaves? Real freedom begins at the beginning of life, not at the adult stage. These people who have been diminished in their powers, made short-sighted, devitalized by mental fatigue, whose bodies have become distorted, whose wills have been broken by elders who say: “your will must disappear and mine prevail!”—how can we expect them, when school-life is finished, to accept and use the rights of freedom?

[Maria Montessori, Education for a New World, translator unknown]

7 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:05:50am
But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.[2] The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.[3]

What. The. Fuck.

8 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Feb 3, 2015 11:06:09am

re: #6 FemNaziBitch

And…Montessori schools are plague pits of anti-vaxxers. Just saying….

9 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:06:25am
10 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:06:46am

re: #8 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

And…Montessori schools are plague pits of anti-vaxxers. Just saying….

That wasn’t my experience,

YMMV

11 Eclectic Cyborg  Feb 3, 2015 11:06:46am

Truth is a foreign concept these days.

I fear we’re on the path to becoming a nation of morons.

12 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:06:50am

Rothbard was also a racist asshole.

13 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:08:13am

re: #4 FemNaziBitch

NO, I think it came from the Bible . .

I think it predated the Bible by millennia.

14 Ace-o-aces  Feb 3, 2015 11:09:18am
(Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.

Yes, and that question is, “why would anybody listen to anything Rothbard had to say after he wrote something as incredibly stupid as this?”

15 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:09:25am

re: #13 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I think it predated the Bible by millennia.

Ok, I think where our current crop of Whackos got it from was the Bible.

16 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:10:43am

re: #9 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Funny you should bring that up…since our new glibitarian asshole senator from NC thinks handwashing is gub’mint tyranny…

17 Targetpractice  Feb 3, 2015 11:11:38am

I think it’s safe to say that Christie’s presidential ambitions are DOA.

18 lawhawk  Feb 3, 2015 11:11:59am

The AAPS also was pushing isolation and banning flights from Africa as a result of Ebola.

That outfit is producing junk science and cranking out bogus claims by the score.

They also are at the forefront of claiming that illegal aliens are the ones bringing all manner of illness into the US, including Enterovirus D68 (even though it was first identified in the US in 1962).

19 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:12:12am
20 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:12:31am

How many people have been arrested, tried and convicted for not washing their hands since Obama was elected?

How many people have lost their jobs for not doing so?

Has any one set up a system of oversight for this issue? Do we need special hand washing camera’s at every restroom sink?

WTF

21 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Feb 3, 2015 11:12:47am

re: #16 Aunty Entity Dragon

Funny you should bring that up…since our new glibitarian asshole senator from NC thinks handwashing is gub’mint tyranny…

Yeah, but the first news story about bad fallout from this will begin with the words “Florida Man….”

22 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:13:05am

re: #17 Targetpractice

It’s so unlike WSJ not to play the MBF game. I guess kudos. This time.

23 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:13:38am

re: #18 lawhawk

The AAPS also was pushing isolation and banning flights from Africa as a result of Ebola.

That outfit is producing junk science and cranking out bogus claims by the score.

They also are at the forefront of claiming that illegal aliens are the ones bringing all manner of illness into the US, including Enterovirus D68 (even though it was first identified in the US in 1962).

Only goods and money should cross the border —not people

GOT IT?

*spit*

24 FemNaziBitch  Feb 3, 2015 11:14:56am

bbl

25 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:16:07am

re: #20 FemNaziBitch

How long before the Freedom Caucus makes glove-wearing fashionable again?

26 b.d.  Feb 3, 2015 11:16:48am
And by the way, I never once washed my hands! That’s your policy, not mine! - Grandpa Simpson
27 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:17:02am

re: #17 Targetpractice

[Embedded content]

I think it’s safe to say that Christie’s presidential ambitions are DOA.

They’ve been DOA since Bridgegate and Bush’s entry. The establishment types are going to want someone who actually can present himself as an adult.

28 Targetpractice  Feb 3, 2015 11:17:37am

So yesterday we had an MTV reject telling folks on Fox that anti-vaxxers were “liberals” and “big government” responsible for distrust towards vaccines. Now:

29 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:18:07am

“Right to Your Property” unless Keystone XL wants it.

30 CarolJ  Feb 3, 2015 11:18:32am

Not just gloves, face masks, veils, and full burka to prevent exposure. One wonders how much of that was designed to avoid exposure to disease?

31 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:19:01am

re: #16 Aunty Entity Dragon

Funny you should bring that up…since our new glibitarian asshole senator from NC thinks handwashing is gub’mint tyranny…

I hope his constituents don’t shake his hand ever then. That’s just gross. This is how low we’re sinking though with these TP creeps. That’s an attitude that in the recent past you’d expect out of a House yahoo and before that a yahoo in a state legislature but this is a Senator and of course from what I know about Tillis he doesn’t extend the same courtesy about “freedom” to LGBT people, women, and people who don’t share his socially conservative Christian views.

32 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:20:14am

re: #28 Targetpractice

So yesterday we had an MTV reject telling folks on Fox that anti-vaxxers were “liberals” and “big government” responsible for distrust towards vaccines. Now:

[Embedded content]

She’s still phrasing it in a way to freak out the freaks. Really it’s not about “big brother”, it’s about not wanting illnesses, the same ones that killed millions of people over the centuries to spread. God why is this so hard.

33 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 11:20:32am

I would like to return one more time to Sen. Thom Tillis’ view on hand washing.

‘For example, don’t you believe that this regulation that requires this gentleman to wash his hands before he serves your food is important and should be on the books?’”

“I said: ‘As a matter of fact, I think it’s one that I can [use to] illustrate the point,’” he remarked. “I said: ‘I don’t have any problem with Starbucks if they choose to opt out of this policy as long as they post a sign that says “We don’t require our employees to wash their hands after leaving the restroom,”’” he recalled, as the audience chuckled. “The market will take care of that.’”

“That’s the sort of mentality that we need to have to reduce the regulatory burden on this country,” he added. “We’re one of the most regulated nations in the history of the planet.”

In short, a regulation requiring employees handling food to wash their hands is a regulatory burden, but a regulation requiring restaurants to post that they don’t require employees to wash their hands is not.

More of the insane GOP self-contradictory babble we get out of most GOPers these days. It’s so prevalent now most people don’t even notice it any more.

34 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:21:47am

re: #31 HappyWarrior

I hope his constituents don’t shake his hand ever then. That’s just gross. This is how low we’re sinking though with these TP creeps. That’s an attitude that in the recent past you’d expect out of a House yahoo and before that a yahoo in a state legislature but this is a Senator and of course from what I know about Tillis he doesn’t extend the same courtesy about “freedom” to LGBT people, women, and people who don’t share his socially conservative Christian views.

He really, really loathes GLBT people. I spoke to him once on the phone during the Amendment 1 fiasco here in NC, and he is a first class dick.

35 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:21:53am

re: #28 Targetpractice

I won’t start liking Kelly any time soon, but I gotta admit that she’s slightly less insane than an average Fox pundit.

36 bubba zanetti  Feb 3, 2015 11:21:54am

Click through if you want to read some amazing, incomprehensible word salad:

37 The Vicious Babushka  Feb 3, 2015 11:22:39am

re: #36 bubba zanetti

Click through if you want to read some amazing, incomprehensible word salad:

[Embedded content]

thefederalist has some world class Derp.

38 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:22:56am

re: #34 Aunty Entity Dragon

He really, really loathes GLBT people. I spoke to him once on the phone during the Amendment 1 fiasco here in NC, and he is a first class dick.

Yeah I remember you talking about that on election night. Seems like a real prick pretzel.

39 Targetpractice  Feb 3, 2015 11:25:02am

re: #33 Skip Intro

I would like to return one more time to Sen. Thom Tillis’ view on hand washing.

In short, a regulation requiring employees handling food to wash their hands is a regulatory burden, but a regulation requiring restaurants to post that they don’t require employees to wash their hands is not.

More of the insane GOP self-contradictory babble we get out of most GOPers these days. It’s so prevalent now most people don’t even notice it any more.

It’s the ol’ bait-and-switch we’re used to by this point. “I’m saying we do away with regulation that requires X, and instead replace it with one that does Y, thus lowering the regulatory burden.”

40 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:25:13am

re: #38 HappyWarrior

Yeah I remember you talking about that on election night. Seems like a real prick pretzel.

But the phree mahkhet will solve everything for all time!!

41 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:26:28am
42 Charles Johnson  Feb 3, 2015 11:26:31am

Jake Tapper’s wounded ego rides again.

43 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:27:06am

Thus, we may say that a man has a right to his property (i.e., a right not to have his property invaded), but we cannot say that anyone has a “right” to a “living wage,” for that would mean that someone would be coerced into providing him with such a wage,

Nobody is compelling him to employ the person, either. He does so because it is in his own interest and generates a profit.

Paying someone less than a living wage compels taxpayers to make up the difference

44 StephenMeansMe  Feb 3, 2015 11:27:12am

First, yay promotion!

Now: It’s my experience that there’s a certain kind of person who really wants to be able to defend “hard truths” and “ideological consistency.” Guess which political philosophy these people tend to gravitate towards!

45 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:27:28am

re: #33 Skip Intro

I would like to return one more time to Sen. Thom Tillis’ view on hand washing.

In short, a regulation requiring employees handling food to wash their hands is a regulatory burden, but a regulation requiring restaurants to post that they don’t require employees to wash their hands is not.

More of the insane GOP self-contradictory babble we get out of most GOPers these days. It’s so prevalent now most people don’t even notice it any more.

The next time he is on town, I propose getting some sort of hair or skin care product that looks like a certain bodily fluid, apply a blob of it to my right hand and then go to shake hands with him.

46 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:27:28am

re: #42 Charles Johnson

I laughed when you reminded him of his Talmudic comment.

47 Eclectic Cyborg  Feb 3, 2015 11:28:56am

re: #42 Charles Johnson

Jake Tapper’s wounded ego rides again.

Now in Ultra HD (High Derp)

48 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:29:24am

re: #9 FemNaziBitch

49 nines09  Feb 3, 2015 11:31:59am

re: #28 Targetpractice

And the Bots who watch will have no recollection of what was really said, only a vague memory of something being “out of context or Obama”. They should just change the channel name to “Jerkoff!”

50 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Feb 3, 2015 11:33:09am

Well, the bit about “No right to a living wage”, didn’t surprise me. I can understand that.

The bit about “No legal obligation to feed, clothe, provide medical care to, etc” did surprise me. I’d assumed that was a bridge too far for the libertarian mind. My mistake. /

51 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:34:45am

re: #50 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse

Well, the bit about “No right to a living wage”, didn’t surprise me. I can understand that.

The bit about “No legal obligation to feed, clothe, provide medical care to, etc” did surprise me. I’d assumed that was a bridge too far for the libertarian mind. My mistake. /

That’s an out for them to dispose of defective children.

52 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 11:35:54am

Regarding the Rand Paul photo at the top, it’s by Win McNamee/Getty Images.

Did the nazis think it made him look good?

53 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:36:54am

re: #50 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse

Well, the bit about “No right to a living wage”, didn’t surprise me. I can understand that.

The bit about “No legal obligation to feed, clothe, provide medical care to, etc” did surprise me. I’d assumed that was a bridge too far for the libertarian mind. My mistake. /

The idea is to prod them into open rebellion so they can simply be exterminated.

I wish I could sarc tag that without reservation…

54 Charles Johnson  Feb 3, 2015 11:37:57am

Meanwhile, here’s a blast from the past:

55 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:38:08am

re: #48 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

wtfisthis

56 ObserverArt  Feb 3, 2015 11:38:23am

re: #17 Targetpractice

[Embedded content]

I think it’s safe to say that Christie’s presidential ambitions are DOA.

A sure sign that Rupert Murdoch is distancing himself from Christie.

57 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 11:38:49am

Here’s yet another Koch Brothers owned GOP idiot.

Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) became the latest Republican on Tuesday to speak out against vaccine mandates, saying: “We should not have an oppressive state telling us what to do.”

“I want that to be my choice as a parent,” Duffy, a father of seven, said said during an appearance on MSNBC’s “The Rundown With José Díaz-Balart.” “I know my kids best. I know what morals and values are right for my children. I think we should not have an oppressive state telling us what to do.”

talkingpointsmemo.com

Here’s the first comment on it.

I’ve got a news flash for you, Sean. The measles virus doesn’t give a rat’s ass about your “values.”

But I agree. The government shouldn’t tell you what to do. Drive 100mph down residential streets. Murder a stranger to steal his wallet. Pour your leftover lawn chemicals and used motor oil into the nearest reservoir. As long as these things are in accord with your “values,” whose business is it but yours?

Moron.

The GOP/Koch Brothers worldview in a nutshell.

58 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:40:42am

Measles now in New York state.

59 Targetpractice  Feb 3, 2015 11:40:58am

Look who’s come riding to Big Chicken’s rescue:

No word on whether Ted think’s there’s a “balance” or what it is.

60 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:41:43am

re: #55 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

wtfisthis

America seems to be regressing to a pre-adolescent level of understanding basic concepts of health and hygiene. Hand-washing, butt-wiping, vaccination against preventable diseases…why do these suddenly seem like foreign concepts nowadays?

61 b.d.  Feb 3, 2015 11:43:26am

I can’t believe we are having this vaccine “argument”.

What lies in store for us next week, the GOP defending the joys of drinking seawater?

62 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:44:43am

Sharyl Attkisson was a worthy heir of Dan Rather. Who bears the mantle now? Tapper is not of the House of CBS, but I would nominate him nevertheless.

63 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Feb 3, 2015 11:45:47am

re:
#57

Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) became the latest Republican on Tuesday to speak out against vaccine mandates, saying: “We should not have an oppressive state telling us what to do.”

But Erick son of Erick told me that all this was the fault of Rich Liberals.

//

64 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:46:24am

re: #59 Targetpractice

Look who’s come riding to Big Chicken’s rescue:

[Embedded content]

No word on whether Ted think’s there’s a “balance” or what it is.

Man these guys are nothing if not predictable. Yes, Ted, it’s the media’s fault. Where’s that famed personal responsibility? Oh that’s only for poor minorities, I remember now.

65 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:46:33am

re: #61 b.d.

I can’t believe we are having this vaccine “argument”.

What lies in store for us next week, the GOP defending the joys of drinking seawater?

toilet-seat pregnancies?

66 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 11:46:39am

re: #60 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Oh, it’s just R. Crumb.

67 nines09  Feb 3, 2015 11:46:56am

re: #59 Targetpractice

Ted Cruz defends Chris Christie on vaccine comments, blames the media cameras. And recorders.

68 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:46:59am

re: #61 b.d.

I can’t believe we are having this vaccine “argument”.

What lies in store for us next week, the GOP defending the joys of drinking seawater?

Obama: You shouldn’t drink your own piss or eat your own shit.
GOP: Like hell we can’t!

69 Aunty Entity Dragon  Feb 3, 2015 11:47:02am

re: #60 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

America seems to be regressing to a pre-adolescent level of understanding basic concepts of health and hygiene. Hand-washing, butt-wiping, vaccination against preventable diseases…why do these suddenly seem like foreign concepts nowadays?

This is what happenes when a political party spends 40 years attacking science, public health, education and anything related to the government while cloaking it all under a populist, anti-elitism mantle.

It has been shockingly effective (for the latest iteration, see Huckabees God, Guns and Gravy…)

70 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Feb 3, 2015 11:47:16am

You don’t mean there are still (sane) people who believe that “kerning” crap?!!

71 Higgs Boson's Mate  Feb 3, 2015 11:47:56am

re: #60 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

America seems to be regressing to a pre-adolescent level of understanding basic concepts of health and hygiene. Hand-washing, butt-wiping, vaccination against preventable diseases…why do these suddenly seem like foreign concepts nowadays?

Because Americans have lost control of so many aspects of their lives that they, like most two-year-old children who are in similar conditions, are resorting to the same forms of asserting themselves as two year old children.

72 Targetpractice  Feb 3, 2015 11:48:29am

re: #60 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

America seems to be regressing to a pre-adolescent level of understanding basic concepts of health and hygiene. Hand-washing, butt-wiping, vaccination against preventable diseases…why do these suddenly seem like foreign concepts nowadays?

Because people nowadays don’t know who Typhoid Mary was or why she was significant, they’ve never seen wards full of iron lungs or met anybody who has a shriveled limb due to paralysis from polio, never buried a child who died from scarlet fever, or had to worry that eating a cheeseburger could mean a case of cholera.

73 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:49:19am

re: #57 Skip Intro

My other favorite Duffy comment is:

The Wisconsin congressman explicitly defended vaccine critics, saying: “I think a lot of parents who are smart, well-read — they’re the ones who are choosing not to vaccinate. And oftentimes, those who may not be as well-read — they are vaccinating. So to say you just have a bunch of crackpots who are choosing not to do this to their children, I just don’t think that’s actually true.”

Pretty sure I got some sort of whiplash from that.

74 jaunte  Feb 3, 2015 11:49:21am

Didn’t we fight a war about that back in the 1860s?
……..

75 Khal Wimpo  Feb 3, 2015 11:50:04am

re: #57 Skip Intro

As long as these things are in accord with your “values,” whose business is it but yours?

Moron.

The GOP/Koch Brothers worldview in a nutshell.

The whole Libertarian philosophy requires a level of magical thinking that is truly unsettling. Despite there being no evidence of it actually working in the really Real World, they ascribe powers to “the free market” to regulate every aspect of human behavior. The whole “tragedy of the commons” thing seems to totally go over their heads. It’s a failure to accept that there is a difference between their pat theories and the messy, inefficient real world, filled with real, flawed human beings.

They tend to be very angry, tightly repressed engineer types who think that the world can be reduced to logical equasions. Of course, there are also the stunted, permanent toddlers whose only motivation is to be able to act recklessly & ignorantly, just because they feel like it. They should be able to dump industrial waste into streams without consequence, but if a black man jaywalks, or sell single cigarettes — field execution is warranted!

76 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:50:04am

re: #70 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

You don’t mean there are still (sane) people who believe that “kerning” crap?!!

I want UpChuck’s catlady to analyze the pixels!!11!!

77 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:50:50am

re: #72 Targetpractice

Because people nowadays don’t know who Typhoid Mary was or why she was significant, they’ve never seen wards full of iron lungs or met anybody who has a shriveled link due to paralysis from polio, never buried a child who died from scarlet fever, or had to worry that eating a cheeseburger could mean a case of cholera.

They’ve never lost a relative especially a child to illness chances are either. I had three grandparents who lost a sibling in childhood including one stillbirth and another grandparent who lost her mother prematurely. Thanks to things like vaccines these are rare events.

78 Dr. Matt  Feb 3, 2015 11:50:54am
79 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 11:50:59am

re: #61 b.d.

I can’t believe we are having this vaccine “argument”.

What lies in store for us next week, the GOP defending the joys of drinking seawater?

The EPA’s reaction to a river catching fire was a gross interference with private industrial operation, and should never have been allowed.

Boat caught in flaming Cuyahoga

The Free Market would have handled this if the evil government hadn’t butted in.

80 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:51:19am

re: #74 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Embedded Image

Didn’t we fight a war about that back in the 1860s?
……..

Yes and Roy was on the losing side of that battle too.

81 ObserverArt  Feb 3, 2015 11:51:45am

re: #72 Targetpractice

Because people nowadays don’t know who Typhoid Mary was or why she was significant, they’ve never seen wards full of iron lungs or met anybody who has a shriveled link due to paralysis from polio, never buried a child who died from scarlet fever, or had to worry that eating a cheeseburger could mean a case of cholera.

No worry. In a few years the way things are going they will get to see all of those examples back so they can enjoy them to their fullest.

America…heading toward the cliff and ready to drive off because they saw it in a movie and it looked like fun!

82 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:51:58am

re: #75 Khal Wimpo

The whole Libertarian philosophy requires a level of magical thinking that is truly unsettling.

It is about putting individuals at the mercy of corporations in the name of “personal freedom”. They fucking well know what sort of snake oil they are peddling.

83 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:52:19am

re: #79 Skip Intro

The EPA’s reaction to a river catching fire was a gross interference with private industrial operation, and should never have been allowed.

[Embedded content]

The Free Market would have handled this if the evil government hadn’t butted in.

It would have burned itself out.
Eventually…

//

84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Feb 3, 2015 11:53:26am

re: #79 Skip Intro

The EPA’s reaction to a river catching fire was a gross interference with private industrial operation, and should never have been allowed.

[Embedded content]

The Free Market would have handled this if the evil government hadn’t butted in.

If Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga had been private property, you see, nobody would have let it come to such a state.

(that was an argument advanced to me by my libertarian roommate at Indiana University in the late 70’s)

85 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:54:06am

Present day conservatism is a bizzaro marriage of every man for himself on economics but we’re happy to tell you what to do with your life when our morals are involved. Think John Knox/Calvin marrying Ayn Rand at the ideological/theological altar.

86 Decatur Deb  Feb 3, 2015 11:54:07am

re: #74 jaunte

[Embedded content]

[Embedded content]

Didn’t we fight a war about that back in the 1860s?
……..

We are going to keep re-electing Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore until we figure out whether he is ‘slow learner’ or ‘low retention’.

Bless his heart.

87 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Feb 3, 2015 11:54:30am

re: #83 Backwoods_Sleuth

It would have burned itself out.
Eventually…

//

Now we’ve got to pay for oil. In the Good Old Days™ you could skim it right out of the river! Damn Tree-Huggers!!!

88 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:54:50am

re: #84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

If Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga had been private property, you see, nobody would have let it come to such a state.

(that was an argument advanced to me by my libertarian roomate at indiana University in the late 70’s)

To which you nearly died of laughter right because private property never ever has been neglected.

89 Backwoods_Sleuth  Feb 3, 2015 11:54:51am

Back to the original post:

the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights.

That should also work in reverse, right?
Children should have no legal obligation to their elderly parents, right?
Right???!!??

90 Dr Lizardo  Feb 3, 2015 11:55:10am

re: #81 ObserverArt

No worry. In a few years the way things are going they will get to see all of those examples back so they can enjoy them to their fullest.

America…heading toward the cliff and ready to drive off because they saw it in a movie and it looked like fun!

“Ow! My Balls!”

91 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:55:15am

re: #86 Decatur Deb

We are going to keep re-electing Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore until we figure out whether he is ‘slow learner’ or ‘low retention’.

Bless his heart.

It’s your state’s version of Sheriff Joe.

92 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 11:58:43am

On a nutritional note, hummus on pita with feta cheese, honey, and salad leaves is just great. I finally made homemade falafel the other night too and it was great.

93 Decatur Deb  Feb 3, 2015 11:59:07am

re: #91 HappyWarrior

It’s your state’s version of Sheriff Joe.

We need him. He completes the aesthetic effect of Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions The Third.

94 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:00:36pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

We need him. He completes the aesthetic effect of Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions The Third.

Heh, I still love that name everytime you say it because that’s a name that should have been the name of a fictional Firebreather senator in an Antebellum movie. John Calhoun is jealous of Jeff Session’s name.

95 lawhawk  Feb 3, 2015 12:00:44pm

And it’s not so much a debate today as it is a one-sided attempt by anti-vaxxers to bring back vanquished diseases.

96 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 12:00:56pm

Libertarian efficiency illustrated.

The first owners of rail lines chose their own track gauge, so rail cars had to be built to each line’s specification. Goods carried on one rail line had to be unloaded and reloaded onto another before transport could continue.

This is what Libertarians think is the ideal way to do all things.

“Why should stop lights be red? I like green better. And why do we need stop lights at all? Individual drivers will always make the correct decision about stopping or not because it benefits them.”

Truly, morons. Every single one of them.

97 Stephen T.  Feb 3, 2015 12:01:36pm

re: #4 FemNaziBitch

NO, I think it came from the Bible . .

Yep, it came from every Bible I’ve read:

Romans 13:1-5
” 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.”

Titus 3:1,
“Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good.”

Titus 2:9
“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them”

1 Peter 2:18
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.”

Col 3:22
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.”

Eph 6:5
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”

98 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 12:02:55pm

re: #95 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

And it’s not so much a debate today as it is a one-sided attempt by anti-vaxxers to bring back vanquished diseases.

To the media, everything is a debate no matter how wacked one side of it is.

“Burning witches, good or bad? Here to debate that are …..”

99 Khal Wimpo  Feb 3, 2015 12:03:48pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Heh, I still love that name everytime you say it because that’s a name that should have been the name of a fictional Firebreather senator in an Antebellum movie. John Calhoun is jealous of Jeff Session’s name.

That name should only be declaimed in the deepest, thickest Foghorn Leghorn accent. With thumbs hooked behind suspenders, and one foot up on a cracker barrel.

100 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:04:32pm

re: #96 Skip Intro

Libertarian efficiency illustrated.

The first owners of rail lines chose their own track gauge, so rail cars had to be built to each line’s specification. Goods carried on one rail line had to be unloaded and reloaded onto another before transport could continue.

This is what Libertarians think is the ideal way to do all things.

“Why should stop lights be red? I like green better. And why do we need stop lights at all? Individual drivers will always make the correct decision about stopping or not because it benefits them.”

Truly, morons. Every single one of them.

What the one guy had to say about Libertarian well technically Atlas Shrugged and then contrasted it with The Hobbit was priceless. It really is an ideology I think based in fantasy. As I’ve said, it’s easy to see why people especially young people find it appealing. But you need balance and some control. I love pointing out to the libertarians that claim that Scandinavian style welfare state style economics would never work here that at least it has worked somewhere where their idea of utopia has never been successful anywhere.

101 Decatur Deb  Feb 3, 2015 12:05:02pm

re: #99 Khal Wimpo

That name should only be declaimed in the deepest, thickest Foghorn Leghorn accent. With thumbs hooked behind suspenders, and one foot up on a cracker barrel.

And banjo music.

102 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:05:29pm

re: #99 Khal Wimpo

That name should only be declaimed in the deepest, thickest Foghorn Leghorn accent. With thumbs hooked behind suspenders, and one foot up on a cracker barrel.

That’s the only way to say it.

103 Decatur Deb  Feb 3, 2015 12:07:15pm

re: #102 HappyWarrior

That’s the only way to say it.

Only in Alabama politics can you say “the smart one” and people know you’re talking about Richard Shelby.

104 b.d.  Feb 3, 2015 12:09:22pm

If Rubio and Jindal think that going after the sane republican primary voters will secure them the nomination they have another thing coming.

//

Sanity:

“Absolutely, all children in America should be vaccinated,” the Florida Republicans told reporters Tuesday. “Unless their immune (system is) suppressed, obviously, for medical exceptions, but I believe that all children, as is the law in most states in this country, before they can even attend school, have to be vaccinated for a certain panel.”

Rubio also came out against those who say vaccines are connected to autism, saying,”There is absolutely no medical science or data what so ever that links those vaccinations to onset of autism or anything of that nature.”

nbcnews.com

Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal also released a statement, saying there is “a lot of fear mongering” over the issue.

“Personally, I would not send my kids to a school that did not require vaccinations. Vaccinations are important. I urge every parent to get them. Every one,” Jindal said.

105 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:09:32pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

Only in Alabama politics can you say “the smart one” and people know you’re talking about Richard Shelby.

Heh not familiar with Shelby but funny one.

106 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Feb 3, 2015 12:09:45pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Heh, I still love that name everytime you say it because that’s a name that should have been the name of a fictional Firebreather senator in an Antebellum movie. John Calhoun is jealous of Jeff Session’s name.

Just seems like there’s a “Ewell” or a “Toutant” missing in there somewhere.

107 lawhawk  Feb 3, 2015 12:10:12pm

Now comes the corrections:

108 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:10:20pm

re: #104 b.d.

If Rubio and Jindal think that going after the sane republican primary voters will secure them the nomination they have another thing coming.

//

Sanity:

nbcnews.com

That’s strike 2 Marco. Strike 1 for you Bobby.

109 HappyWarrior  Feb 3, 2015 12:11:37pm

re: #106 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

Just seems like there’s a “Ewell” or a “Toutant” missing in there somewhere.

I don’t know. I think it’s perfect. Jefferson as in Jefferson Davis. Beauregard like Pierre Beauregard the general at Fort Sumter, and Sessions which sounds a little like secession. And then cherry on top is that he’s the third Jefferson Beauregard Sessions so he’s got an aristocratic edge to him.

110 Testy Toad T  Feb 3, 2015 12:13:31pm

re: #69 Aunty Entity Dragon

This is what happenes when a political party spends 40 years attacking science, public health, education and anything related to the government while cloaking it all under a populist, anti-elitism mantle.

It has been shockingly effective (for the latest iteration, see Huckabees God, Guns and Gravy…)

Experts are bad, nay, they very concept of expertise is bad. It is quite simply a Jesusist flavor of Mao’s Great Leap Forward, nothing more and nothing less.

I next expect backyard pig-iron smelting driven by the “it feels right” concept of parenting.

111 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 12:17:16pm

re: #97 Stephen T.

The wingnut bible is very flexible, with passages being included or deleted at the whim of the wingnut, or cut from where they originally were and pasted wherever the wingnut needs them to be to make a point.

112 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 12:18:11pm

re: #111 Skip Intro

The wingnut bible is very flexible, with passages being included or deleted at the whim of the wingnut, or cut from where they originally were and pasted wherever the wingnut needs them to be to make a point.

So is the liberal’s Bible.

113 Skip Intro  Feb 3, 2015 12:19:40pm

re: #112 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

So is the liberal’s Bible.

You’ll have to post an example the next time a liberal does that, for balance.

114 Romantic Heretic  Feb 3, 2015 12:41:23pm

re: #11 Eclectic Cyborg

Truth is a foreign concept these days.

I fear we’re on the path to becoming a nation of morons.

Actually the problem is that Truth™ is something far too common these days. But we human beings, limited in our perception, cannot know the truth.

We can, however, be wise and kind. Too bad that requires constant input of information, rethinking of intellectual stances and acceptance of those from different tribes as people. These are things humans are not good at.

So Truth™ tends to win the day.

115 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Feb 3, 2015 1:03:19pm

re: #113 Skip Intro

You’ll have to post an example the next time a liberal does that, for balance.

They ignore all the bad stuff and focus on all the feel-good stuff Jesus allegedly said. If they followed all the bad stuff, they wouldn’t be liberals by def.

116 SirMixALot  Feb 3, 2015 1:23:47pm

re: #21 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

Floridians harm themselves, Californians harm the nation. Measles out break from California has spread to 14 states. Thanks Cali its not enough you gave us reality TV. Let me be the first to say WTF California? #Californiaman spreads Mickey Mouse measles.

117 b_sharp  Feb 3, 2015 1:48:46pm

While I see some pretty crappy attitude toward kids coming from the libertarian ideals I don’t see where they claim to own children.

What does this mean?

In short, every baby as soon as it is born and is therefore no longer contained within his mother’s body possesses the right of self-ownership by virtue of being a separate entity and a potential adult.

The emphasis is mine.


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