Merchants of Doubt: What Climate Deniers Learned From Big Tobacco

Peter Sinclair - Yale Climate Forum
“Doubt is our product”

Peter Sinclair from the Yale Climate Forum reviews a documentary that details how marketing doubt about science became profitable for multiple industries and their shills.

YouTube

In March 2015, Robert Kenner, the Director of “Food Inc” and other acclaimed documentaries, will debut his newest, “Merchants of Doubt”.
Based on the book by Naomi Oreskes and Eric Conway, the film follows the development of sophisticated methods for distorting science, used by the Tobacco industry to hide the poisonous nature of their products, and adapted by the Fossil Fuel industry to distort the science around climate change.

Note: the documentary has had limited showings in the UK and US at festivals and limited venues, the Official release is in March.

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170 comments

1 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 7:41:14am

Doubt is great. It’s unreasonable doubt that sucks.

2 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 7:49:32am

I’m not sure that a group of talking heads is going to go over big with mainstream audiences.

Short attention spans require visuals.

And Pierre Omidyar had a hand in this which, for me, brings into question its inpact.

3 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 7:51:33am

re: #2 Justanotherhuman

When Omidyar does good, he does good.

4 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 7:52:49am

I do dislike the title though.

5 Decatur Deb  Mar 1, 2015 7:53:56am

re: #2 Justanotherhuman

I’m not sure that a group of talking heads is going to go over big with mainstream audiences.

Short attention spans require visuals.

And Pierre Omidyar had a hand in this which, for me, brings into question its inpact.

Several years ago I commented to Ludwig that climate science was going to need a great novel/film on the level of The Jungle. Hasn’t happened.

6 Decatur Deb  Mar 1, 2015 7:57:07am

Off now to convert charcoal and beef-fat into greenhouse gases. BBL.

7 BigPapa  Mar 1, 2015 7:59:10am

re: #2 Justanotherhuman

I’m not sure that a group of talking heads is going to go over big with mainstream audiences.

Short attention spans require visuals.

And Pierre Omidyar had a hand in this which, for me, brings into question its inpact.

I can’t recommend the book enough, so maybe just read the book. It’s not a long read.

I also think it’s a mistake to discount a resource or information coming from a tainted source, by default. The default should be some skepticism, but warranted skepticism. Omidyar has a taint to him but the work of Oreskes and Conway stands on it’s own.

8 BigPapa  Mar 1, 2015 8:05:28am

re: #3 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

When Omidyar does good, he does good.

A person can do good, and that same person can do bad.

One can fight for freedom and democracy and against oppression yet still espouse the scourge that is pineapple on pizza.

9 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:06:15am

re: #3 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

He’s only going to appeal to “intellectual elitists” with this, though. I don’t have any problems with intellectuals when they are not just talking amongst themselves, but until they are able to touch a cross section of society, talking amongst themselves is what they do best.

We need examples with voice-overs which have a deeper impact on general audiences, not a bunch of people just re-affirming each other’s views. This is going to flop except with those for which it is intended.

I’d rather listen to Neil deGrasse Tyson explain it anyway. Warning: It’s the Bill Maher show. : ) From 3 yrs ago.

10 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:08:30am

re: #9 Justanotherhuman

Well, I haven’t see the film, so I can’t comment on the presentation.

11 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:11:10am

re: #10 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I was basing my view on the trailer. While I might watch the entire thing, most people won’t. And I’m not an anti-intellectual, BTW. But in order to get more people to view this and change their opinion of what’s happening via climate change, we’re going to have to do more outreach to the general public. I’m talking process, not content here.

12 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 1, 2015 8:13:33am

Nothing effective will be done to halt mankind’s contribution to GCC because doing so would run counter to the interests and aspirations of too many monied interests and far too many average people.

13 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:13:45am

re: #11 Justanotherhuman

A trailer is not the same as an excerpt from a film. I don’t assume the above is an excerpt, seeing as how it presents the “director of ‘Merchants of Doubt’”.

14 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 8:15:55am

re: #11 Justanotherhuman

I was basing my view on the trailer. While I might watch the entire thing, most people won’t. And I’m not an anti-intellectual, BTW. But in order to get more people to view this and change their opinion of what’s happening via climate change, we’re going to have to do more outreach to the general public. I’m talking process, not content here.

That also assumes that the complete film doesn’t contain errors that seriously undermine it. I count no documentary as being definitive until its been thoroughly examined by honest people who are not committed to its cause or a cause directly opposing its cause. Only a through but non-partisan verification can verify the value (or lack thereof) of a movie like this.

15 stpaulbear  Mar 1, 2015 8:23:10am

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

Let’s ask an expert! Say…. the Republican chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. He should know a LOT about this.

Oh wait…that’s Jim Inhofe.

16 BigPapa  Mar 1, 2015 8:26:45am

re: #12 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Nothing effective will be done to halt mankind’s contribution to GCC because doing so would run counter to the interests and aspirations of too many monied interests and far too many average people.

Yes, that. However, there’s an additional component to it: end times religious influence. I call it the nitrous oxide that primes the big biz denialist engine.

Many who succumb or are in the pocket of denialism also seem to have literal ‘end times’ or Rapture religious views. It’s as if ‘oh well, it’s God’s plan’ or the Rapture is coming anyway I’ll get to see it. They seem to oscillate between outright denial or rejection to ‘oh well-ism.’

17 BigPapa  Mar 1, 2015 8:27:22am

re: #15 stpaulbear

Let’s ask an expert! Say…. the Republican chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. He should know a LOT about this.

Oh wait…that’s Jim Inhofe.

Poof!
(throws snowball at stpaulbear)

18 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 8:28:43am

You mean (Mr I can make a snowball in the winter) Jim Inholfe. lol what a joke he is.

19 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:30:40am

re: #13 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I didn’t say it was an “excerpt”; I said it was a trailer. Look, I live in an area in which I’ll never see many movies, unless I make an effort to hunt down a DVD or it winds up on Netflix.

I do think global warming is real and that we’re already seeing the effects of it.

Did you look at where this movie had a limited engagement before its “public” release Mar 1? In doing so, it’s appealing to a certain base and hoping for good reviews from those who notice it.

If it’s worth its salt, I’ll make an effort to see it, but I have doubts I wouldn’t have to travel to see it in a theater. I just don’t know if I want to release that much carbon into the air.

20 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 8:34:04am

What is sad is that we are to the point where we have politicians saying they are not scientists, but still doing everything they can to get into the way of the science.

I’d liken it to Jim Inhofe going into his doctor and being told he has stage one cancer and if he changes his diet, and we administer this new medicine, his cancer can be beaten in 95% of cases like his.

Then Inhofe tells his doctor to piss off he doesn’t know the politics of healthcare and as a politician he needs to ignore the doctors science and go on doing what he has been doing all along because all his constituents live this way, always have and always will.

21 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:35:27am

US-led coalition launched 9 airstrikes against Islamic State targets in Iraq and Syria over past 24 hours
end of alert

22 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:36:05am

re: #19 Justanotherhuman

I didn’t say it was an “excerpt”; I said it was a trailer.

Yet you proceeded to judge the film based on it, even though it doesn’t seem to represent the atmosphere of the film.

Here’s a real trailer, visuals and all:

23 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 1, 2015 8:39:54am

@DanRiehl has been suspended from Twitter

24 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 8:41:07am

re: #22 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Yet you proceeded to judge the film based on it, even though it doesn’t seem to present the atmosphere of the film.

Here’s a real trailer, visuals and all:

[Embedded content]

Video

All the denial is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

25 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:41:09am

variety.com

Still, despite its preaching-to-the-choir tendencies, “Merchants of Doubt” presents itself as a highly entertaining, even satirical item, overflowing with eye-popping graphics and smart talking heads — all the better to appeal to those viewers unwilling to read scientific articles, keep up with the news or consider viewpoints that run counter to their beliefs.

26 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:42:26am

re: #23 The Mother Of All Pies

@DanRiehl has been suspended from Twitter

Will be back in an hour.

27 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 8:43:40am

re: #16 BigPapa

Yes, that. However, there’s an additional component to it: end times religious influence. I call it the nitrous oxide that primes the big biz denialist engine.

Many who succumb or are in the pocket of denialism also seem to have literal ‘end times’ or Rapture religious views. It’s as if ‘oh well, it’s God’s plan’ or the Rapture is coming anyway I’ll get to see it. They seem to oscillate between outright denial or rejection to ‘oh well-ism.’

Too much nitrous introduced and the pistons had holes burned in them and now the engine is dead. Prematurely.

The God of Performance Engines is not happy his glorious work has been rendered useless by trying to mess with the air/fuel ratios and reminds those Religious Tuners you can’t cheat his good works (science) and expect to win the race in the long run.

28 allegro  Mar 1, 2015 8:45:15am

I applaud any and all efforts to pound this reality into our collective heads. No one thing will reach or speak to everyone - why we need multiple levels and approaches - and a lot of heads are just too thick to ever get through. We’ve got to stop electing the latter to office.

29 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:46:05am

re: #22 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Yet you proceeded to judge the film based on it, even though it doesn’t seem to present the atmosphere of the film.

Here’s a real trailer, visuals and all:

[Embedded content]

Video

In a country where most people tend to be scientifically illiterate, I’m thinking this movie isn’t going to do much to dispel that.

We need basic science education, and it’s a political battle even to get that taught correctly.

30 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:48:22am

re: #29 Justanotherhuman

I don’t think anyone presents this as a magic pill that will cure ignorance. But it’s a step in the right direction [despite the horrible title] and the more such steps are taken, the better.

Moreover, it seems the film was made to appeal to the masses, with its visuals and satirical take on things. That’s good.

31 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 8:50:19am

re: #29 Justanotherhuman

In a country where most people tend to be scientifically illiterate, I’m thinking this movie isn’t going to do much to dispel that.

We need basic science education, and it’s a political battle even to get that taught correctly.

I agree It’s something that has been lost in educational system.
I’m old but when I was young and in school we were taught to trust the scientist.

32 allegro  Mar 1, 2015 8:50:38am

re: #29 Justanotherhuman

In a country where most people tend to be scientifically illiterate, I’m thinking this movie isn’t going to do much to dispel that.

We need basic science education, and it’s a political battle even to get that taught correctly.

It may, however, provide added tools for the scientifically literate to better explain concepts to those less educated. We don’t live in a vacuum. People talk to each other and family members and are more influenced by those they know than any other source.

33 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 8:56:19am

To explain my aversion to the title: doubt is one of the cornerstones of the modern democratic civilization. The opposite of doubt is dogma. So by casting doubt as something negative the authors not only do disservice to science, reason, etc., but also fall into a trap: “Oh, you reject doubt, you dogmatists!”. All this could have been avoided through the use of qualifiers such as “unreasonable”.

34 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 8:59:17am

When movies like this attain the revenues of crap like “50 Shades of Grey”, then we know we’ve made a real break-through.

35 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:00:31am

re: #34 Justanotherhuman

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a box office hit. Bush was still re-elected.

36 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 9:01:38am

re: #35 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a box office hit. Bush was still re-elected.

The country had a collective brainfart.

37 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:02:52am

re: #33 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

To explain my aversion to the title: doubt is one of the cornerstones of the modern democratic civilization. The opposite of doubt is dogma. So by casting doubt as something negative the authors not only do disservice to science, reason, etc., but also fall into a trap: “Oh, you reject doubt, you dogmatists!”. All this could have been avoided through the usage of qualifiers such as “unreasonable”.

True, but the movie’s title is a derivation from cigarette manufacturers being referred to as “merchants of death”. To have added “unreasonable” to the title would have been to make it longer, less catchy, and it wouldn’t be as easy to draw the connections the filmakers want drawn.

38 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:04:16am

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

I didn’t know about that… and it makes it so much worse. Doubt/death? Really?

39 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:05:17am

“Merchants of Doubt” is a great name for a film by Ken Ham or William Dembski.

40 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:05:25am

re: #36 Tigger2

The country had a collective brainfart.

No, what happened was that John Kerry like his fellow Bay Stater Mitt Romney was a 2nd-tier candidate who had to face a sitting president. Both elections were won by the incumbent because the opposition’s best candidates didn’t run and because of the very real advantages an incumbent president has.

41 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:07:04am

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

What happened is that Bush was a terrible president and re-electing him against a decent candidate like Kerry was a brainfart (to describe it charitably).

42 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:07:55am

re: #38 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I didn’t know about that… and it makes it so much worse. Doubt/death? Really?

The desire is for an easy and ‘catchy’ title. Titles of larger-budget, theater-released documentaries are more about marketing than about substance, at least in North America.

43 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:08:19am

re: #31 Tigger2

I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 74 and we were taught to trust authority and there was a “revolt” against that by the time I grew up, some oif it well-deserved. Now, few people trust anyone because rational nuance is lost on far too many of them.

44 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 9:09:02am

re: #35 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a box office hit. Bush was still re-elected.

Interesting. I might add that election had many merchants of doubt involved in it too. things like Swift Boaters and Jerome Corsi’s Unfit for Command, talk about French Surrender Monkeys, Hines ketchup and all kinds of…

…unreasonableness!

45 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 9:12:17am

re: #33 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Titling is an interesting kind of writing. Lots of factors to it, including a pitch for attention. For documentaries, it’s even harder IMO. Perhaps for most “doubt” in context here is understood to be a thing both used and abused.

46 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 9:13:28am

re: #43 Justanotherhuman

I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 74 and we were taught to trust authority and there was a “revolt” against that by the time I grew up, some oif it well-deserved. Now, few people trust anyone because rational nuance is lost on far too many of them.

I’m 63 and we were taught in science class to question but trust the scientist on scientific matters instead of nonscientist.

47 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:14:12am

re: #45 Great White Snark

Perhaps for most “doubt” in context here is understood to be a thing both used and abused.

I might have accepted this, if I hadn’t already seen people who dislike the term “skeptic” because global warming deniers also call themselves that.

48 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:14:29am

re: #35 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a box office hit. Bush was still re-elected.

That election was too close for comfort (there were assertions of electoral shenanigans), and raw emotions over 9/11 still prevailed.

49 Thanos  Mar 1, 2015 9:17:51am

This looks like a good documentary, and I definitely trust some of the people featured. I’ll view it with an open mind but have a few grains of salt nearby since Omyidar’s outfit has an established reputation for hyperbole.

50 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:20:01am

re: #49 Thanos

This looks like a good documentary, and I definitely trust some of the people featured. I’ll view it with an open mind but have a few grains of salt nearby since Omyidar’s outfit has an established reputation for hyperbole.

I’d say in the case of GG & Co, he showed a great indifference to who he chose to invest in.

51 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:20:46am

re: #49 Thanos

This looks like a good documentary, and I definitely trust some of the people featured. I’ll view it with an open mind but have a few grains of salt nearby since Omyidar’s outfit has an established reputation for hyperbole.

Thankfully, Omidyar isn’t the director ;)

52 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:20:58am

re: #44 ObserverArt

Interesting. I might add that election had many merchants of doubt involved in it too. things like Swift Boaters and Jerome Corsi’s Unfit for Command, talk about French Surrender Monkeys, Hines ketchup and all kinds of…

…unreasonableness!

I’d also add:

1. While Fahrenheit 9/11 was a hit in the North American movie market, that market includes both the US and Canada. Toronto is the 4th biggest metro area in terms of movie theater-going, as an example. So a notable number of the tickets that made the movie a hit were bought by people who can’t vote in US elections.

2. Michael Moore was and still is seen by much of the country as a liar. Most of his audience is composed of people who vote reliably Democratic regardless of who’s running. Moore can be seen as simply preaching to a very large choir. He didn’t persuade those who voted for Bush but could have been induced to vote for a Dem.

53 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:23:19am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

2. Michael Moore was and still is seen by much of the country as a liar.

So is Bush after the WMD.

54 Dr. Matt  Mar 1, 2015 9:24:28am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I’d also add:

2. Michael Moore was and still is seen by much of the country as a liar.

You speak for “much of the country” now? *rolling my eyes*

55 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:25:26am

Moore is a propagandist, for sure, but I doubt his tricks resulted in ~200000 deaths.

56 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 1, 2015 9:25:41am

jah mentioned this earlier this morning:

57 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 9:25:58am

re: #54 Dr. Matt

You speak for “much of the country” now? *rolling my eyes*

I must not be in the “much of the county” bunch.
He may not be 100% accurate but his truthfulness prob outweighs his untruthfulness.

Lets measure Moore up against that icon of rightwing truthfulness James Okeefe.

58 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 9:28:34am

“Save The Tiger” What does that title mean to you absent a trailer?

Save the Tiger (1973)

A businessman’s professional struggles begin to conflict with his personal life over the course of two days. (100 mins.)
Director: John G. Avildsen
Stars: Jack Lemmon, Jack Gilford, Laurie Heineman, Norman Burton

Happens to be a revered performance by Jack Lemmon and contain one of those famous long unedited scenes.

59 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:29:50am

re: #58 Great White Snark

I’m not even going to start about the genre of Free Willy. ///

60 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:31:21am

re: #58 Great White Snark

Wasn’t that a Jack Lemmon movie about some neurotic businessman?

61 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:32:11am

re: #58 Great White Snark

Honestly, I didn’t look. I think I saw it, although my memory is in decline somewhat. : )

62 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:32:53am

Russian 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika (‘Carnation’) self-propelled howitzers moving through Donetsk. I counted 18 of them, a full battalion.

Good news if they’re heading back east, Very Bad News if they’re heading for the front lines.

63 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 9:33:12am

re: #60 Justanotherhuman

Yes, Vietnam middle age vet has flashbacks as his clothing company threatens to go under. Must see for Jack Lemmon fans or anyone who seeks to edit video well. I wonder how many of us here have even seen it?

64 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:34:08am

A Supercut of CPAC Speakers Smirking Onstage

nbcnews.com

65 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:34:38am

re: #63 Great White Snark

Yes, Vietnam middle age vet has flashbacks

Saw Jacob’s Ladder a few days ago. Wasn’t my movie.

66 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 9:35:02am

Does anyone think Dark sees a Jerome Corsi differently from a Michael Moore?

Dark?

67 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:35:27am

re: #57 Tigger2

I must not be in the “much of the county” bunch.
He may not be 100% accurate but his truthfulness prob outweighs his untruthfulness.

Lets measure Moore up to that bastion of rightwing truthfulness James Okeefe.

In your opinion. Bowling for Columbine marked Michael Moore forever as a dishonest man in my eyes. My mind is made up about him and my opinion of him is not going to change.

68 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:36:01am

re: #66 ObserverArt

Does anyone think Dark sees a Jerome Corsi differently from a Michael Moore?

Dark?

I see them very differently.

69 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 9:37:10am

re: #68 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I see them very differently.

Please expound! I am interested in your view of the two in comparison.

70 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:37:12am

re: #64 Justanotherhuman

A Supercut of CPAC Speakers Smirking Onstage

nbcnews.com

I see NASA spacewalk.

71 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:37:29am

re: #69 ObserverArt

Please expound! I am interested in your view of the two in comparison.

Corsi is a hate peddler.

72 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:37:46am

re: #66 ObserverArt

Does anyone think Dark sees a Jerome Corsi differently from a Michael Moore?

Dark?

Corsi of Weird Nut Daily? He’s a liar as well, and I’ve said so before. You know how much i disdain that site.

73 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:38:53am

re: #70 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I see NASA spacewalk.

This is why I hate MSNBC videos. You have to troll through that and one more to get to this one—or look on the right hand margin and click.

74 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:39:39am

Well, I guess Putin cops would say that.

Organizers say 70,000 people turned out at march for slain opposition leader Boris Nemtsov; police estimate crowd at more than 16,000 - @AFP
read more on yahoo.com

75 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 9:39:56am

I like Michael Moore, and I’m generally aligned with his causes, but he lacks credibility. I think most people have a prejudiced idea of what he is saying no matter what actually comes out. Take the sniper issue. Most people think he was criticizing members of the armed services because he dared say that infantry hated snipers. He could explain it until he is blue in the face, but nobody will hear a word he says.

76 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 9:42:27am

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

In your opinion. Bowling for Columbine marked Michael Moore forever as a dishonest man in my eyes. My mind is made up about him and my opinion of him is not going to change.

Nice you opened that door.

Do you see President Bush and the NeoCons as forever dishonest men in your eyes?

And please, as pointed out earlier in this thread…weigh the results of their dishonesty in both a U.S. and a world result.

77 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:42:35am

re: #73 Justanotherhuman

Let’s see if this mutha works.

Video

78 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 9:43:35am

re: #59 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I’m not even going to start about the genre of Free Willy. ///

Geez, I can’t believe I must have missed Free Willie II

79 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 9:44:13am

If your partisan documentarians have not been called liars they are probably as yet unpublished. Or are pretty damn lazy.

80 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:44:19am

re: #75 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I like Michael Moore, and I’m generally aligned with his causes, but he lacks credibility. I think most people have a prejudiced idea of what he is saying no matter what actually comes out. Take the sniper issue. Most people think he was criticizing members of the armed services because he dared say that infantry hated snipers. He could explain it until he is blue in the face, but nobody will hear a word he says.

At the very least he expressed his point poorly, and his first follow-on post was evidence he is still morally confused regarding the Sunni Arabs we were fighting in Iraq.

Infantry do hate enemy snipers with a passion and usually will not accept their surrender, but snipers remain an important part of modern warfare.

81 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:45:12am

re: #74 Justanotherhuman

Well, I guess Putin cops would say that.

Organizers say 70,000 people turned out at march for slain opposition leader Boris Nemtsov; police estimate crowd at more than 16,000 - @AFP
read more on yahoo.com

Acc. to newsru.com GUVD said there were 44000 visitors. Acc. to White Counter there were 51000. So about the same. The police usually lies about the counts, but, it seems, not this time.

82 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:45:44am

re: #76 ObserverArt

I decline to answer on grounds that I’ll just get dogpiled if I try to explain myself.

83 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 9:45:47am

IMO the issue with Michael Moore is not nearly as much how questionable his facts are, it is that he must hit every point with waaay to big a hammer. Guy seems to eschew subtle.

84 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:46:28am

Yes, I was a big Jack Lemmon fan. He did American Neurotic Man very, very well. Two of my favorites were “The Out-of-Towners” and “Days of Wine and Roses” but there were other greats, too, including comedies.

85 Iwouldprefernotto  Mar 1, 2015 9:46:52am

re: #77 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Let’s see if this mutha works.

[Embedded content]

I really don’t get the point. I can’t care about their smirks. What bothers me is their stupid ideas and the fact that they want to impose their religion on me and my family.

86 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:47:08am

re: #81 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

AFP merely cited an early police estimate. Also propaganda, sort of.

87 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 9:50:15am

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

I don’t even think he expressed his point unclearly. People have such a prejudged opinion of anything he says that they’ll misunderstand him. I remember the quote and I knew exactly what he was talking about. It was quite clear.

88 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 9:50:25am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

We could sic Upchuck on you. Which would be worse?

89 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:50:55am

re: #77 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Uh, no, Sarah, you didn’t kill the Nazis. You employed them.

90 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 9:52:17am

re: #83 Great White Snark

I think he overdid it with anecdotes.

91 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:53:39am

re: #88 Justanotherhuman

We could sic Upchuck on you. Which would be worse?

Chuckles is the worse human being because:

A. He’s a misogynist, and Michael Moore is not.

B. Moore has never made any threats of violence that I am aware of, while UpChuck has made such threats.

92 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 9:53:45am

re: #77 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Let’s see if this mutha works.

[Embedded content]

I watched CPAC, I have never heard more lies told in one place at one time in my life.

93 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:54:12am

My personal issue with Moore is this clip from F9/11. I hope I don’t need to explain why?

94 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 9:54:27am

re: #92 Tigger2

I have never heard more lies told in one place at one time in my life as I did when I watched CPAC.

I see lots of unfulfilled potential in this room…

95 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 9:56:41am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer on grounds that I’ll just get dogpiled if I try to explain myself.

Dark…this is one of those times a non-answer is still an answer.

96 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 9:57:04am

re: #89 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Uh, no, Sarah, you didn’t kill the Nazis. You employed them.

We weren’t the only ones to do that.

97 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 9:58:27am

re: #96 Dark_Falcon

We weren’t the only ones to do that.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

98 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 10:01:40am
99 Tigger2  Mar 1, 2015 10:01:52am

re: #94 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I see lots of unfulfilled potential in this room…

I had to change the wording around, no matter how many times I reread the old wording it never sounded right. lol

100 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 10:02:49am

re: #83 Great White Snark

IMO the issue with Michael Moore is not nearly as much how questionable his facts are, it is that he must hit every point with waaay to big a hammer. Guy seems to eschew subtle.

Subtle? You want subtle in America today knowing how things don’t work?

American politics does not know subtle.

95+% of scientists say there is climate issues that need to be addressed. That is not subtle to a reasonable person. Must be too subtle for the deniers though and the people that buy into the denial.

Should we even mention the gun issues, one of your favorite topics? No, Let’s not. Little kids getting mowed down is still too subtle.

(Not picking at you RWC…I think you know my point)

101 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 10:04:08am

re: #97 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Why did you post what you did? The US killed far more Nazis than it later employed.

102 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 10:07:25am

re: #89 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Uh, no, Sarah, you didn’t kill the Nazis. You employed them.

She also seems to gloss over the effects other countries had on fighting the Nazis, especially the Russians and goes for that well-worn only ‘America Saved the World’ thinking.

But considering her audience, she fed them the 75% fat burgers they want.

103 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 10:08:59am

William Shatner responds to critics after saying he can’t attend Leonard Nimoy’s funeral - @AJCLife
read more on accessatlanta.com

104 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 10:10:20am

re: #89 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Uh, no, Sarah, you didn’t kill the Nazis. You employed them.

No one has ever accused Caribou Barbie of being smart.

105 ObserverArt  Mar 1, 2015 10:11:04am

Later…got to get some things done around the house.

106 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:11:47am

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Why did you post what you did?

Because Sarah was wrong and ignorant as usual?

107 Belafon  Mar 1, 2015 10:15:19am

re: #89 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Uh, no, Sarah, you didn’t kill the Nazis. You employed them.

We did both.

As for her statement, I really wish people would dial back the idea that America won WW2. I can support an argument that American involvement made a massive difference in the war, but it wasn’t just American involvement that won it. Had Hitler been smart enough not to turn on Russia, Germany probably would have controlled the rest of Europe.

108 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 10:15:31am

re: #106 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Because Sarah was wrong and ignorant as usual?

Granted, but a little more detail would’ve helped. Sorry I got hostile.

109 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 10:18:20am

Samsung says its new Galaxy S6 smartphone takes 10 minutes to store up a charge that can last 4 hours - @CNET
read more on cnet.com

Photo: Samsung unveils Galaxy S6 smartphone with curved screen and mobile-payment system - @WSJD
see original on wsj.com

110 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:20:39am

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

Granted, but a little more detail would’ve helped. Sorry I got hostile.

Sarah implied that “they” killed all the Nazis. It was simply not true. I pointed that out by using the most obvious example. I could have gone on about how at a certain stage of the de-Nazified Western Germany lots of judges were former Nazis, etc.

111 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:22:00am

re: #107 Belafon

No Lend-Lease - no victory. It was a common victory, something that both Americans and Russians too often forget.

112 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 10:22:27am
113 Justanotherhuman  Mar 1, 2015 10:22:33am

I often wonder how Americans would act if we had our own homegrown, real Hitler?

I think we see some of that at CPAC events.

114 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 10:26:46am

re: #113 Justanotherhuman

I often wonder how Americans would act if we had our own homegrown, real Hitler?

HE’S BEEN PREZNIT SINCE 2008!!!! THE NAZIS ARE RUNNING AMERICA!!!

//////

115 De Kolta Chair  Mar 1, 2015 10:27:06am
Welcome back, snow! Where’ve ya been?
116 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 10:27:28am

re: #83 Great White Snark

IMO the issue with Michael Moore is not nearly as much how questionable his facts are, it is that he must hit every point with waaay to big a hammer. Guy seems to eschew subtle.

I agree about the size of his hammer. I think he seems to always go one step too far (although, overall I like his movies.) In Bowling for Columbine, I think he should have stopped before the Charlton Heston ambush; in Sicko, he should have left out the Cuban boat thingie etc.

Although I usually agree with his movies’ points, there is always at least one segment that makes me cringe and think to myself, “OK—here is where he’s going to lose his audience.”

Talk about somebody who could use a good editor!

117 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:29:42am

Nemtsov’s murder will be investigated by Igor Krasnov, a specialist on nationalist murderers. He investigated the Tikhonov-Khasis case.

This hints that currently the main version may be that the murder was done by nationalist extremists.

Personally, I find this to be one of plausible versions, considering what I know about the T-K case (they also were murdering liberal/antifascist figures and one of their goals was causing a disturbance that would lead to a “national revolution”).

newsru.com

118 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 10:35:11am

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Chuckles is the worse human being because:

A. He’s a misogynist, and Michael Moore is not.

B. Moore has never made any threats of violence that I am aware of, while UpChuck has made such threats.

To add to your list:

C. Moore has actually left his home to do something, and doesn’t sit home, tweet and beg for money from rubes.

D. Moore can actually write coherently.

E. Moore will engage his critics with more than “I’m right, you’re wrong nah nah.”

119 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:39:13am

re: #118 BeachDem

And Moore has more money than Chucky will ever have, BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

120 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 10:41:08am

re: #116 BeachDem

I agree about the size of his hammer. I think he seems to always go one step too far (although, overall I like his movies.) In Bowling for Columbine, I think he should have stopped before the Charlton Heston ambush; in Sicko, he should have left out the Cuban boat thingie etc.

Although I usually agree with his movies’ points, there is always at least one segment that makes me cringe and think to myself, “OK—here is where he’s going to lose his audience.”

Talk about somebody who could use a good editor!

It wasn’t just Heston in BfC, though even in the early stages of Alzheimer’s Disease Charlton Heston still showed far more guts than Roger Smith ever did (though given Heston’s life and career that isn’t surprising).

It was also facts Moore got wrong or gave a dishonest twist. In the movie he notes that the National Rifle Association was founded in “the same year the Ku Klux Klan was declared illegal.” The film’s next words are: “Just a coincidence?”, which implies it was not a coincidence. Which is actually true, but not in the way Moore insinuates: The NRA was founded in New York State and its first two presidents were both former Union generals who had served under Ulysses S. Grant as corps commanders: Ambrose Burnside and Henry Slocum. After Grant, who had signed the Ku Klux Klan Act into law left the White House, he served a year as the NRA’s president.

Many things have changed from those days to now, and the NRA’s center of gravity has left the states that supplied the Union’s man power during the Civil War. But Michael Moore did not try to explain that complex history, which he could have done through the book companion to his movie (it wouldn’t have made for good film). Instead he went for a quick and dishonest note on the NRA’s founding, and in doing so dishonored its founders, who should instead be thought of as honorable and patriotic.

121 Dark_Falcon  Mar 1, 2015 10:42:07am

re: #118 BeachDem

To add to your list:

C. Moore has actually left his home to do something, and doesn’t sit home, tweet and beg for money from rubes.

D. Moore can actually write coherently.

E. Moore will engage his critics with more than “I’m right, you’re wrong nah nah.”

All valid points, though you forgot the last point on a list that long:

F. Rand Paul.

BBL

122 Dr. Matt  Mar 1, 2015 10:44:40am

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

founders, who should instead be thought of as honorable and patriotic.

Thanks to your party those words really don’t mean what they use to any more. They have perverted their definition and throw them around to label anyone as such as long as they insult minorities, the left, women, and everything else they oppose. Fuck the NRA and fuck their worshippers.

123 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 10:45:38am

Moore is a hack whose only power is in his movies and books.

Republicans are hacks who wield real political power. If one hates Moore without hating the latter, your opinion null and void from my perspective.

124 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 10:53:28am

re: #123 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I like Michael Moore. I happen to think he’s his own worst enemy.

125 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 1, 2015 10:54:23am

re: #39 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

“Merchants of Doubt” is a great name for a film by Ken Ham or William Dembski.

“Merchants of Doubt” would be a great title for a movie/novel about a sleazy defense lawyer who sees his job as getting off his guilty client by planting “doubt” in the minds of the jury. Which describes about 99% of all lawyer novels ever written. :)

126 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 10:55:42am

re: #124 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I happen to think he’s his own worst enemy.

THIS.

Bowling For Columbine started off with a lot of promise, but as soon as Moore injected himself into the story and started pulling stupid stunts like going after Dick Clark and Charlton Heston, he lost me. He made a lot of great points about the culture of fear in this country and those points ended up getting buried under all the bullshit.

127 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 1, 2015 10:56:19am

re: #118 BeachDem

To add to your list:

C. Moore has actually left his home to do something, and doesn’t sit home, tweet and beg for money from rubes.

D. Moore can actually write coherently.

E. Moore will engage his critics with more than “I’m right, you’re wrong nah nah.”

Wingnuts always shout “Michael Moore!” as an”argument” against wealth inequality, except:

Moore’s fortune was not made or is dependent on employing millions of workers at poverty wages.

128 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 11:00:12am

philly.com

“Gov. Christie’s proposed budget for the fiscal year that begins July 1 assumes hundreds of millions of dollars in savings achieved through the expansion of Medicaid under President Obama’s health-care law.
“But in a budget address last week devoted almost entirely to the costs of public employees’ pensions, Christie notably did not mention how much the Affordable Care Act has helped New Jersey residents and the state’s tight finances…
“As a result, he said, the number of claims submitted to the state through hospital charity care - the program through which the state covers medical expenses for the uninsured - has declined substantially.
“The shift has saved the state about $150 million, Sidamon-Eristoff said, some of which will be invested in graduate medical education and increased funding for Medicaid physician reimbursement rates…
“The Department of Human Services projects that the state will save an additional $417 million because of Medicaid expansion in fiscal 2016 and about $2 billion more through fiscal 2020.”

129 Charles Johnson  Mar 1, 2015 11:01:13am
130 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 11:01:39am

As a guy who has done some documentaries, instructional/industrial videos I have a ton of respect for Moores efforts. It’s a crap ton of work. Him and quite a few others only some of who I actually agree with on content. One day I hope to actually have a budget outside of my own pocket to do another more political piece like I did with Occupy LA. 400,000 hits on my channel is still small time.

131 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 11:04:38am

re: #103 Justanotherhuman

William Shatner responds to critics after saying he can’t attend Leonard Nimoy’s funeral - @AJCLife
read more on accessatlanta.com

I clicked on the links but could not find anything in them about this. What happened?

132 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 11:05:01am

re: #123 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Moore is a hack whose only power is in his movies and books.

Republicans are hacks who wield real political power. If one hates Moore without hating the latter, your opinion null and void from my perspective.

How about hating the latter without hating Moore?

133 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 11:06:29am

re: #126 Lidane

THIS.

Bowling For Columbine started off with a lot of promise, but as soon as Moore injected himself into the story and started pulling stupid stunts like going after Dick Clark and Charlton Heston, he lost me. He made a lot of great points about the culture of fear in this country and those points ended up getting buried under all the bullshit.

Which is why i think if he had a strong editor who could stand up to him, Moore’s movies would be a whole lot better.

134 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 11:06:58am

re: #132 BeachDem

How about hating the latter without hating Moore?

He usually causes this emotion in wingnuts. I’m only pointing out the hypocrisy.

135 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 11:07:30am

re: #127 The Mother Of All Pies

Wingnuts always shout “Michael Moore!” as an”argument” against wealth inequality, except:

Moore’s fortune was not made or is dependent on employing millions of workers at poverty wages.

Michael Moore is their living, breathing ALINSKY!!

136 Lidane  Mar 1, 2015 11:10:41am

re: #133 BeachDem

Which is why i think if he had a strong editor who could stand up to him, Moore’s movies would be a whole lot better.

Editors are vastly underrated. Anyone who makes a living as a writer or director needs that objective voice telling them when something doesn’t flow properly or if something isn’t good.

137 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 11:11:39am

I did use to like Moore, certainly in 2004. I had to reevaluate my opinion of him. I don’t “intensely” dislike him, but I will always point out that he’s a hack.

138 TedStriker  Mar 1, 2015 11:14:31am

re: #131 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I clicked on the links but could not find anything in them about this. What happened?

Shatner had a long-standing commitment to appear at the Red Cross Ball in Palm Beach, FL last night that helps to raise money for the American Red Cross; he couldn’t do that and be back in L.A. for Nimoy’s funeral today.

Frankly, to all those hating on Shatner for that right now, I truly think that Nimoy would understand.

139 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 1, 2015 11:24:00am

re: #135 BeachDem

Michael Moore is their living, breathing ALINSKY!!

Wingnuts believe that mentioning the name of any liberal who is wealthy is some kind of totem against discussing wealth inequality.

140 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 1, 2015 11:30:24am

re: #139 The Mother Of All Pies

Wingnuts believe that mentioning the name of any liberal who is wealthy is some kind of totem against discussing wealth inequality.

Must drive them bananas that he worked his way up.

141 Charles Johnson  Mar 1, 2015 11:39:42am

re: #139 The Mother Of All Pies

Wingnuts believe that mentioning the name of any liberal who is wealthy is some kind of totem against discussing wealth inequality.

AL GORE

142 BeachDem  Mar 1, 2015 11:42:05am

re: #141 Charles Johnson

AL GORE

and—GORE rhymes with MOORE, and they’re both fat, so that further proves their point in wingnut world.

143 Shiplord Kirel  Mar 1, 2015 11:47:09am

Michael Moore. Not one of my favorite people. He should be impeached or at least voted out of office before he orders the Obammunist ACORN militia to seize our guns and Bibles.

WHAT?

Never mind.

144 bratwurst  Mar 1, 2015 11:50:22am

re: #143 Shiplord Kirel

Michael Moore. Not one of my favorite people. He should be impeached or at least voted out of office before he orders the Obammunist ACORN militia to seize our guns and Bibles.

WHAT?

Never mind.

And don’t even get me started on Code Pink holding up DHS funding! /

145 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 11:51:09am

Thinking 2016- and the poll results.

I would have hoped for a more robust group given Obamas exit. Especially with Joe Biden already looking marginal in popularity. But what we have is the Clinton expectation. If she stepped out, I’d bet we would get that robust group. Apparently many would be’s fear the uphill battle against a very powerful set of experienced well monied allies. So I’d say at this point if she does not run the expectation is inhibiting the race needlessly.

146 KerFuFFler  Mar 1, 2015 11:51:45am

Just quoting a tweet from Colbert:

“Global warming isn’t real because I was cold today! Also great news: World hunger is over because I just ate.”

I miss his show so much…

147 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 1, 2015 11:54:39am
148 b_sharp  Mar 1, 2015 11:58:36am

re: #147 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Oh, hey. there you are.
I couldn’t do the skype thing yesterday because V had different ideas about what we (meaning me) should be doing.

For some unknown reason she wants me to fix the dish washer.

149 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 1, 2015 12:01:21pm

re: #148 b_sharp

Oh, hey. there you are.
I couldn’t do the skype thing yesterday because V had different ideas about what we (meaning me) should be doing.

For some unknown reason she wants me to fix the dish washer.

We can try again next weekend or whenever.

Dishwashers can’t wait…

150 Romantic Heretic  Mar 1, 2015 12:02:32pm

re: #16 BigPapa

Yes, that. However, there’s an additional component to it: end times religious influence. I call it the nitrous oxide that primes the big biz denialist engine.

Many who succumb or are in the pocket of denialism also seem to have literal ‘end times’ or Rapture religious views. It’s as if ‘oh well, it’s God’s plan’ or the Rapture is coming anyway I’ll get to see it. They seem to oscillate between outright denial or rejection to ‘oh well-ism.’

I first became aware of that with James Watt, Ronnie’s first Secretary of the Interior.

During his confirmation hearings he said something along the lines of “It isn’t necessary to look after the environment because who knows when Jesus will return.”

Unfortunately Watt turned out to be the standard rather the anomaly.

151 Belafon  Mar 1, 2015 12:04:47pm

re: #145 Great White Snark

If she stepped out, I’d bet we would get that robust group.

Who do you think would actually run that might have a chance? I just haven’t seen anyone. It’s not like beating the Clinton juggernaut has never been accomplished. What are they afraid of that a black first term senator from Illinois wasn’t afraid of?

152 Romantic Heretic  Mar 1, 2015 12:07:40pm

re: #31 Tigger2

I agree It’s something that has been lost in educational system.
I’m old but when I was young and in school we were taught to trust the scientist.

No, it wasn’t lost. It was dropped.

Our education system performs its assigned task; to turn out human resources suitable for employment, not human beings suitable for citizenship.

Doubt, inquiry, humility cannot be measured on a balance sheet and therefore do not exist.

153 Romantic Heretic  Mar 1, 2015 12:11:13pm

re: #33 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

To explain my aversion to the title: doubt is one of the cornerstones of the modern democratic civilization. The opposite of doubt is dogma. So by casting doubt as something negative the authors not only do disservice to science, reason, etc., but also fall into a trap: “Oh, you reject doubt, you dogmatists!”. All this could have been avoided through the use of qualifiers such as “unreasonable”.

As John Ralston Saul points out, reason and doubt are not quite the same thing. In the modern definition of reason doubt is actively denied.

154 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:13:27pm

WTF? Why is this guy allowed to do this?

He told the New York Times that he “urged his followers to avoid harming civilians and never recommended the use of explosives,” but I don’t see how that lets him off the hook when he’s urging them to attack places. Oh, and he also did a seven-year stint in prison in the UAE.

Online, American Helps Fuel Attacks in Egypt

Writing from an online perch in Istanbul, he calls on Egyptians to start off-hour attacks against KFC restaurants, banks, mobile phone shops and other corporate outposts. He urges assaults on the military’s commercial interests instead of its security checkpoints.

Nonviolent protests are worse than “futile,” he says, just an opportunity “to get arrested or shot in an exercise in crowd control training for the police.”

This Internet provocateur is an American convert to Islam, Shahid King Bolsen, a college dropout who speaks only rudimentary Arabic and has barely set foot in Egypt. He has nevertheless emerged as the unlikely apostle for a distinctive blend of anti-globalization sloganeering and Islamist politics that is fueling a new wave of violence against businesses across the country.

Although the attacks have mainly hit empty banks, stores and restaurants, they have killed two Cairenes so far. On Thursday alone, six bombs set off around greater Cairo injured at least nine others, including four police officers.

nytimes.com

Is the First Amendment really that broad? Isn’t what he’s doing analogous to yelling “fire” in a crowded theater?

155 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:15:15pm

See? I told you Charles always posts a new thread as soon as I comment. *sigh*

156 Belafon  Mar 1, 2015 12:16:22pm

re: #155 CuriousLurker

Actually, his post went up when I put my comment up (look at the post times). Not the first time it’s happened to me either.

157 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:18:52pm

re: #156 Belafon

Actually, his post went up when I put my comment up (look at the post times). Not the first time it’s happened to me either.

Well okay, yeah, to be exactly accurate it happens while I’m typing my comment. Thought I was safe since this thread was only around 150 posts long. That’s what I get for thinking. //

158 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 1, 2015 12:20:45pm

Hey Sergey! Just saw this on twitter for you:

159 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:22:54pm

re: #158 Backwoods_Sleuth

Hey Sergey! Just saw this on twitter for you:

[Embedded content]

I’ll be darned, I had no idea there was such a thing as a meteorological spring. I was wondering why Sergey said that yesterday, but forgot to look it up.

160 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 12:23:06pm

re: #153 Romantic Heretic

As John Ralston Saul points out, reason and doubt are not quite the same thing. In the modern definition of reason doubt is actively denied.

Dealing with arguments of a person who rails against reason seems like a futile task to me, so I won’t. ^_^

161 lostlakehiker  Mar 1, 2015 12:23:08pm

re: #12 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Nothing effective will be done to halt mankind’s contribution to GCC because doing so would run counter to the interests and aspirations of too many monied interests and far too many average people.

But effective action need not run counter to the interests and aspirations of either group. One sort of effective action is to continue with the R&D progress on solar energy. Each new niche that opens up as the price of solar drops past the threshold for that niche is another profitable market for the business types and another way to save money or do something that up to now couldn’t have been done for that part of the public whose lives are touched by that niche. Ditto for wind.

Niche by niche, each bigger than the last, the industry grows and while it’s too slow, it’s still something. And as the industry matures and its sales boom, it begins to have more heft in the political space. Oil did, after all, displace coal and wood. It isn’t as if new industries just can’t get their foot in the door.

Over on the other side of the coin, each new natural disaster that was made more likely by the underlying climate change hurts [by definition of “disaster”] a lot of people. And it hurts the insurance industry too. That industry is already putting its prices more toward where they need to be to cover likely future losses, rather than just cover the losses that would be expected if the climate had remained the same and was going to remain the same. These rising prices are going to bring home the reality of the situation to more people than are directly impacted by the disasters.

We aren’t going to ignore this danger for ever. We’re going to react. We already are. The scale of the response is way less than it should be, but it’s gathering momentum.

Take Texas. You will not find much zeal here for saving the world from climate change. So you might expect that virtually nothing is being done on the green energy front. But that would be a mistaken guess. Texas is number 1, and by a wide margin, in wind power. True, it’s a big state, but still. Map of states by wind power.
Or take Arizona. Again, this is not a state that leaps to mind when we go to talking about environmental consciousness. But it’s number 1 in solar, ranked by per capita output. Why? Duh! It gets more sun. There are pragmatic reasons at work here and action can be taken without winning everybody over politically.

162 Romantic Heretic  Mar 1, 2015 12:26:59pm

re: #107 Belafon

We did both.

As for her statement, I really wish people would dial back the idea that America won WW2. I can support an argument that American involvement made a massive difference in the war, but it wasn’t just American involvement that won it. Had Hitler been smart enough not to turn on Russia, Germany probably would have controlled the rest of Europe.

It’s possible Hitler could have beaten Russia as well. If he’d not been a racist scumbag Ukrainians, Belorussians and every other minority in the Soviet Union would have lined up to serve in the Wehrmacht.

Luckily for us, he was a racist scumbag.

163 Nyet  Mar 1, 2015 12:27:52pm

re: #158 Backwoods_Sleuth

The message of that tweet reminded me of Jim Inhofe for some reason. ;)

164 Belafon  Mar 1, 2015 12:30:48pm

re: #157 CuriousLurker

Well okay, yeah, to be exactly accurate it happens while I’m typing my comment. Thought I was safe since this thread was only around 150 posts long. That’s what I get for thinking. //

I didn’t mean to sound like I was stealing your thunder. But yeah, I clicked send and there it was, the next post.

165 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 12:34:18pm

re: #151 Belafon

A potential candidate with even more momentum than in 2008. Much more.

166 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:35:52pm

re: #164 Belafon

I didn’t mean to sound like I was stealing your thunder. But yeah, I clicked send and there it was, the next post.

I wasn’t trying to imply that you were. Besides, what good is thunder if there’s no one around to hear it? //

167 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:38:18pm

re: #165 Great White Snark

A potential candidate with even more momentum than in 2008. Much more.

More momentum than Obama had? As I recall, everyone was high on the hope & change rhetoric, especially after four years of Bush. I think it would be pretty hard to top that.

168 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 12:43:33pm

re: #167 CuriousLurker

Hi!
Wish me a little photographers luck. Heading out after blue light/twilight T-storms on the coast. Conditions look favorable.

169 CuriousLurker  Mar 1, 2015 12:52:01pm

re: #168 Great White Snark

Hi!
Wish me a little photographers luck. Heading out after blue light/twilight T-storms on the coast. Conditions look favorable.

[Embedded content]

Good luck! looking forward to see what you come back with. ;-)

170 Great White Snark  Mar 1, 2015 1:01:34pm

re: #169 CuriousLurker

Yup that article inspired me today. :-)


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