Tim Cook: ‘Religious Freedom’ Laws Are Discriminatory and Dangerous

Drawing a line
Opinion • Views: 41,806

Apple CEO Tim Cook drops the mic at the Washington Post. It’s rare to see the head of a massive corporation put himself on the line like this; good on ya, Tim.

Tim Cook: Pro-Discrimination ‘Religious Freedom’ Laws Are Dangerous.

I remember what it was like to grow up in the South in the 1960s and 1970s. Discrimination isn’t something that’s easy to oppose. It doesn’t always stare you in the face. It moves in the shadows. And sometimes it shrouds itself within the very laws meant to protect us.

Our message, to people around the country and around the world, is this: Apple is open. Open to everyone, regardless of where they come from, what they look like, how they worship or who they love. Regardless of what the law might allow in Indiana or Arkansas, we will never tolerate discrimination.

Men and women have fought and died fighting to protect our country’s founding principles of freedom and equality. We owe it to them, to each other and to our future to continue to fight with our words and our actions to make sure we protect those ideals. The days of segregation and discrimination marked by “Whites Only” signs on shop doors, water fountains and restrooms must remain deep in our past. We must never return to any semblance of that time. America must be a land of opportunity for everyone.

Read the whole thing.

Jump to bottom

410 comments
1 Belafon  Mar 29, 2015 8:14:20pm

But us Christians aren’t free to be who we want to be.

///

ETA: Good for Cook.

2 Kragar  Mar 29, 2015 8:19:02pm
3 teleskiguy  Mar 29, 2015 8:22:41pm
4 Kragar  Mar 29, 2015 8:23:44pm
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

So where is the bit that says that doesn’t apply to Christians?

5 Tigger2  Mar 29, 2015 8:29:05pm

re: #4 Kragar

So where is the bit that says that doesn’t apply to Christians?

In the special one they have in the Fox news filing cabinet.///

6 Romantic Heretic  Mar 29, 2015 8:29:21pm

Well said, Mr. Cook.

7 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 29, 2015 8:30:10pm

Well done, Mr. Cook. This sentence, “The days of segregation and discrimination marked by “Whites Only” signs on shop doors, water fountains and restrooms must remain deep in our past,” struck a chord in me. Will Indiana countenance “Christians Only” signs on shop doors? How about “No gays” signs? Indiana’s legislature is attempting to ensconce in law the kind of bigotry that more enlightened parts of the country have given up.

8 Belafon  Mar 29, 2015 8:31:34pm

re: #4 Kragar

So where is the bit that says that doesn’t apply to Christians?

That’s the 14th amendment. It’s not a real one.

//

9 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Mar 29, 2015 8:34:06pm

God, the Apple-haters are going to lose their minds again. (It being a day ending in “y”.) They’re still having to put stickers over Apple logos on any TV show after their contribution to the “No on 8” campaign in 2008, because any sight of one would draw a blizzard of hate mail. Between the right-wingers, the Freetards, and the Fandroids, following Apple-centric sites can really wear you down.

Anyway, I think Tim Cook gas been doing a hell of a job in general, and this just adds to my admiration…give ‘em hell, Tim!

10 HappyWarrior  Mar 29, 2015 8:35:35pm

Good on Cook for calling these laws what they are.

11 goddamnedfrank  Mar 29, 2015 8:49:05pm

I’m sure the company with $178 billion in cash reserves gives a shit about offending bigots. Apple knows goddamned well who buys their products and who doesn’t.

12 Charles Johnson  Mar 29, 2015 9:12:53pm

Oh hai fraudster!

13 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 29, 2015 9:16:54pm

Paged: Governor Pence is pushing for legislation “clarifying” Indiana’s RFRA.

That didn’t take long, did it?

14 Lidane  Mar 29, 2015 9:18:56pm

re: #13 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Paged: Governor Pence is pushing for legislation “clarifying Indiana’s RFRA.

That didn’t take long, did it?

“Clarifying” the law but still not making LGBT citizens a protected class.

Seems legit.

15 Targetpractice  Mar 29, 2015 9:20:20pm

re: #13 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Paged: Governor Pence is pushing for legislation “clarifying Indiana’s RFRA.

That didn’t take long, did it?

When you get asked several times over 20 minutes whether the law will allow discrimination and you can’t say answer yes or no, then what “clarification” is necessary?

16 Kragar  Mar 29, 2015 9:22:58pm

re: #13 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Paged: Governor Pence is pushing for legislation “clarifying Indiana’s RFRA.

That didn’t take long, did it?

Maybe shit for brains should have considered that before signing it into law.

17 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 29, 2015 9:27:43pm

re: #14 Lidane

re: #15 Targetpractice

Looks to me as though Pence will be desperately trying to transmute this POS bill into something less toxic. He and his lege will have to figure out a way to do that without angering those bigoted Hoosiers who were happy with the RFRA. Considering that the lege was stupid enough to pass the bill and Pence was stupid enough to sign it into law I doubt that they’ll have much success.

18 goddamnedfrank  Mar 29, 2015 9:28:11pm

re: #13 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Paged: Governor Pence is pushing for legislation “clarifying Indiana’s RFRA.

That didn’t take long, did it?

LOL. He’s just going to end up pissing off everybody.

19 Charles Johnson  Mar 29, 2015 9:42:42pm

The Walking Dead is freaking intense tonight.

20 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 29, 2015 9:57:33pm

Buying more APPL stock. :) Thank you Tim.

21 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 29, 2015 9:58:12pm

NCAA should move the playoffs to Chicago. Anyone is more than welcome to the United Center.

22 retired cynic  Mar 29, 2015 10:00:51pm

I am enjoying my Apple products just a bit more tonight than I usually do!

23 Drive By Commenter  Mar 29, 2015 10:22:51pm

Tim Cook in one paragraph has bitch slapped the ignorance. Now we get to see who heard him and stands with us sane folks. Nice try GOP. Next up….What color should Lesbians wear? Could I just see one real GOP Governors Head, if not explode, swell up slightly on TV? Get unsightly? Yeah. I want to see that. Puck Fence and anyone who resemble his “I ain’t got the money tonight, but you know I’m good for it” face. Go run into a stucco wall.

24 Charles Johnson  Mar 29, 2015 10:31:00pm
25 Kragar  Mar 29, 2015 10:31:28pm
26 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 29, 2015 10:46:20pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

False equivalence, yet again.

27 Charles Johnson  Mar 29, 2015 10:59:36pm

re: #26 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

False equivalence, yet again.

I can’t figure out whether these freaks really believe the crazy nonsense they spout, or if they’re cynically lying to try to trick naïve people. I’m not sure which is worse.

28 Kragar  Mar 29, 2015 10:59:46pm

Ryan is keenly aware that many U.S. Veterans are un- or underemployed, and would benefit profoundly from the opportunity to serve in another capacity—one that would save lives. With his military experience, he’s able to speak directly to the unique skills that veterans can bring to anti-poaching efforts. He interviewed his colleagues and saw the difficulties and frustrations of men and women who are highly skilled in combat-related areas, but unable to leverage those skills in a conventional civilian setting. They have a continuing dedication to serve others, and Ryan helps them channel it.

That is when he decided to create vetpaw.org

VETPAW empowers African park rangers by training and implementing the skills that are vital to the success of anti-poaching efforts. Rangers are able to cover vast areas more efficiently and effectively, increasing the number of poachers deterred or detained.

187 African Park Rangers will killed when trying to intervine with Rhino poachers last year alone. This is a very dangerous mission, one that will put the Vetpaws team in direct contact with a known enemy that is reportedly funded by Boko Haram and Al Qaeda.

29 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 29, 2015 11:24:28pm

re: #28 Kragar

That’s really a cool idea.

30 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 29, 2015 11:29:10pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

I can’t figure out whether these freaks really believe the crazy nonsense they spout, or if they’re cynically lying to try to trick naïve people. I’m not sure which is worse.

It’s a little of both, I think. Most of the time, people re-tweet this BS without even thinking about it. After all, gayz r just like Nazis. //

31 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 12:06:10am

re: #24 Charles Johnson

The difference here being the Jewish baker would refuse to bake that cake for anyone making the request. They would not choose to make it for some customers while refusing to make it for others.

And there in lies the difference that RWNJ choose to ignore.

32 goddamnedfrank  Mar 30, 2015 12:19:36am

re: #31 Kragar

The difference here being the Jewish baker would refuse to bake that cake for anyone making the request. They would not choose to make it for some customers while refusing to make it for others.

And there in lies the difference that RWNJ choose to ignore.

The lazy conflation at play is that the customer is the same as the product that they order. That a “gay” wedding cake isn’t the same as a “traditional” wedding cake, ignoring the fact that the style is identical. A baker might defensibly refuse to stock and sell same sex cake toppers, since they wouldn’t be selling the toppers to anybody. This would be pushing it, and dickish, but it wouldn’t be illegal under discrimination ordinances. It would be the same in outcome if not intent as a “no swastikas” policy, and would be as far as anybody wishing to run with Mr. Hopper’s analogy could possibly get.

33 goddamnedfrank  Mar 30, 2015 12:32:23am

I think if I had a bakery my policy would be abstract and geometric designs only. Just because I think that’s way cooler than trying to make shit look like other shit.

My cake shop would also be inexplicably located at the end of a long dungeon filled with monsters just like in Phantasy Star 1. I’d want my customers to be highly motivated cake buyers and not just random assholes off the street.

34 BadExampleMan  Mar 30, 2015 12:45:44am

In an homage to Monty Python, my cake shop would not contain any cake whatsoever.

35 Mentis Fugit  Mar 30, 2015 2:00:04am

re: #34 BadExampleMan

In an homage to Monty Python, my cake shop would not contain any cake whatsoever.

Venezuelan Beaver Cake?

36 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 2:12:53am

re: #24 Charles Johnson

The thing is, the Nazi swastika is not a religious matter, but a political one, so that law wouldn’t protect anyone against it even if that idiotwitterer were right. What an oversight!

37 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 2:44:32am

re: #36 Nyet

“Idiotwitterer” — I like this term.

38 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 2:45:29am

re: #37 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

“Idiotwitterer” — I like this term.

You can have it with a discount. Unless you’re GHEY!

39 Frenchy  Mar 30, 2015 2:47:26am

re: #13 Higgs Boson’s Mate

That asshole was so proud to sign the law…until the backlash. Now he wants to appear to walk it back without really walking it back? Fuck him.

40 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 2:59:14am

So there’s this Karen Armstrong person who is a superficial (and therefore, of course, bestselling) writer about religion. Still, I was surprised when I read this:

We’re piling all the violence of the 21st Century on the back of religion, sending it away, saying we have nothing to do with religion. While we still have to deal with the political situation. The supermarket attack in Paris was about Palestine, about Isis. It had nothing to do with antisemitism; many of them are Semites themselves. But they attempt to conquer Palestine and we’re not talking about that.

Sheesh.

41 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 3:05:36am

I’m in Amsterdam!

Our flight to Prague was cancelled due to high winds. Fortunately they scheduled us for another flight later this afternoon and we will arrive in Prague at 7:45 this evening. So we’re kind of stuck at the airport.

42 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 3:12:05am

re: #40 Nyet

So there’s this Karen Armstrong person who is a superficial (and therefore, of course, bestselling) writer about religion. Still, I was surprised when I read this:

Sheesh.

She’s written quite a few books about comparative religion, and encourages inter-faith communication, so she’s not all bad. Also, she’s a former nun.

43 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 3:14:25am
44 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 3:17:16am

re: #43 darthstar

When you’ve lost Fox News, you’ve really gone off the rails. That’s the problem with FN condoning this kind of extremism all these years. It’s just gotten worse with time. This guy is a US congressman, for pete’s sake, not some yokel with a blog and a Twitter account.

45 goddamnedfrank  Mar 30, 2015 3:25:04am
46 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 3:25:52am

re: #42 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

She’s written quite a few books about comparative religion, and encourages inter-faith communication, so she’s not all bad. Also, she’s a former nun.

Yeah, she’s one of those “feel-good” types. Much fluff, not much substance.

47 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 3:28:07am

So McCain did learn something from Sarah Palin.

48 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 3:28:42am

re: #45 goddamnedfrank

Took me a second…heh.

49 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 3:32:49am

re: #46 Nyet

Yeah, she’s one of those “feel-good” types. Much fluff, not much substance.

Perhaps more than a little naive, as well. Some religious believers would prefer not to acknowledge connections with other religions, or a less-than-divine provenance of their chosen faith.

I have read none of her books, I should add, so I know her only by reputation.

50 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:05:55am

Meanwhile, in the UK, Parliament has dissolved on the eve of elections, and PM Cameron has made the traditional visit to Her Majesty.
bbc.com

51 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:06:58am

Political opportunist Pat McCrory, Duke Energy’s Man in Raleigh, doesn’t play with a full deck, ever.

Shifting Center Or Standing Pat? The Politics Of Gov. McCrory Ahead Of 2016 Campaign

wfae.org

I re-registered as “Unaffiliated” (NC doesn’t allow Independent) from Dem years ago so I could screw around w/Republican primaries. I may have to change back.

52 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:15:36am
53 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:17:57am

re: #52 The Mother Of All Pies

They do things right in Amsterdam.

54 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:19:31am

re: #53 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

They do things right in Amsterdam.

One push at a time but when I finish this push (which fills a whole glass) I can go back for another push.

55 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:19:39am

Malaysian journalist’s satirical video leads to death threats against her.

A satirical video has exposed the sensitivity over Islamic law in Malaysia - as well as the limits of online speech in the country.

It was supposed to be a light-hearted poke at proposals to expand Islamic law in one state in Malaysia. But a video starring journalist Aisyah Tajuddin resulted in death and rape threats along with a police investigation.

It all began when the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party (known by its Malay acronym PAS) proposed implementing hudud laws on Muslims in Kelantan, a mostly rural state in the northeast of the country.

Hudud laws cover prohibitions against things such as adultery, apostasy, robbery and theft, and prescribe punishments considered cruel or unusual in most Western countries: public beatings, stoning, amputation and public execution. They’re also relatively uncommon in most Muslim nations with the exception of those such as Saudi Arabia or Iran which follow the most strict interpretations of Islamic sharia law.

Aisyah, a journalist with independent radio station BFM, mocked the party in a video titled “Hudud: A Rice Bowl Issue”.

bbc.com

56 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:20:00am

Can’t smoke weed at the airport tho

57 Majacita  Mar 30, 2015 4:20:19am

My friends on Facebook are going crazy denouncing Indiana. I’ve had to tell them we have the same law on our books. Had to do the same thing when they were upset about Stand Your Ground. Our legislature can pass anything ALEC wants and no one here would know or care.

58 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:20:20am

re: #54 The Mother Of All Pies

One push at a time but when I finish this push (which fills a whole glass) I can go back for another push.

I presume it is Dutch bier?

59 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:21:15am

re: #56 The Mother Of All Pies

Can’t smoke weed at the airport tho

Or rent a hooker for a couple of hours, either.

60 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:21:20am

re: #58 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

I presume it is Dutch bier?

That is the Heinekin spout!

61 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:21:52am

re: #59 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Or rent a hooker for a couple of hours, either.

I wouldn’t do that.

62 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:23:41am

re: #60 The Mother Of All Pies

That’s the only Dutch beer most Americans know. Otherwise, they wouldn’t know it was beer.

63 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 4:25:41am

re: #56 The Mother Of All Pies

Can’t smoke weed at the airport tho

They wouldn’t give it to you even in one of those cafes. Citizens only.

64 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 4:26:33am

If you see Geert, give him a good Backpfeifen for all of us.

///

65 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:32:18am

re: #61 The Mother Of All Pies

I wouldn’t do that.

Sad that you’re too early for this:

iamsterdam.com

66 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 4:35:50am

re: #61 The Mother Of All Pies

I wouldn’t do that.

I’m sure you wouldn’t, and I wasn’t suggesting you would.

The last time I was in Amsterdam, with family in tow, we had several hours layover. Despite a cold January rain, we braved the elements to go into the city and walk around. We also did not avail ourselves of the city’s more colorful services. ;-)

67 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:39:54am

Iran talks still blocked on 3 major points, Western diplomat says - @AFP
end of alert

And this…

Iranian Guard says US drone killed 2 of its advisers in Iraq; US says it only struck militants - @AP
end of alert

Unless the IG was working w/the militants?

68 The Week Of No Pie  Mar 30, 2015 4:41:45am

re: #66 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

I’m sure you wouldn’t, and I wasn’t suggesting you would.

The last time I was in Amsterdam, with family in tow, we had several hours layover. Despite a cold January rain, we braved the elements to go into the city and walk around. We also did not avail ourselves of the city’s more colorful services. ;-)

The last time we were here, I visited the Jewish Museum, the Portuguese synagogue and the Flower Market. Also walked along the canals. It was nice.

69 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:47:19am

I can imagine that having a few choice puffs from a joint would alleviate any fear of flying and make it a truly great experience. : )

70 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 4:51:07am

If you’re flying JetBlue today…

JetBlue flights boarding 45-60 minutes late due to ‘systemwide outage’ - @DavidWMTW
see original on twitter.com

71 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 4:59:27am

re: #32 goddamnedfrank

A baker might defensibly refuse to stock and sell same sex cake toppers, since they wouldn’t be selling the toppers to anybody. This would be pushing it, and dickish, but it wouldn’t be illegal under discrimination ordinances.

If they simply carry only mixed-couple cake toppers, they cannot be forced to add them to their selection, just like a halal butcher cannot be asked to sell bacon.

And in no way does baking a cake confer any sort of blessing to a marriage, it is a business proposal. But it makes the True Christian (TM) feel all butt hurt that they cannot express their disapproval in a more blatant manner.

72 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 5:32:16am

re: #71 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Cakes are trivial, as Frank says, they don’t have to carry the toppers. There are more sticky situations though. If you’re say a wedding decorator.

73 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 5:36:02am

re: #72 Nyet

Cakes are trivial, as Frank says, they don’t have to carry the toppers. There are more sticky situations though. If you’re say a wedding decorator.

Again, designing a wedding is in no way conferring a blessing on it. Religious Freedom means you are free to refuse to accept that these people are married in the eyes of the Lord.

Equal Rights means that you have to accept their civil status and cannot discriminate against them for being gay.

74 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 5:52:40am

re: #73 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Again, designing a wedding is in no way conferring a blessing on it. Religious Freedom means you are free to refuse to accept that these people are married in the eyes of the Lord.

Equal Rights means that you have to accept their civil status and cannot discriminate against them for being gay.

A wedding is not a marriage. There is nothing religious about a wedding. Trust me.

75 danarchy  Mar 30, 2015 5:54:25am

re: #9 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

God, the Apple-haters are going to lose their minds again. (It being a day ending in “y”.) They’re still having to put stickers over Apple logos on any TV show after their contribution to the “No on 8” campaign in 2008, because any sight of one would draw a blizzard of hate mail. Between the right-wingers, the Freetards, and the Fandroids, following Apple-centric sites can really wear you down.

I thought the Sticker thing was just because apple didn’t pay for the product placement. Chances are if you see any corporate logo on tv it is because it was paid for.

76 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 5:55:01am

Yay !! The 2016 polls are starting. I love that ‘new statistics’ smell.

Poll: Who would Americans consider voting for in 2016?

cbsnews.com

77 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 5:59:32am

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Yay !! The 2016 polls are starting. I love that ‘new statistics’ smell.

Poll: Who would Americans consider voting for in 2016?

cbsnews.com

Word is that Rubio will declare his candidacy on April 13, with Rand Paul also in the wings.

78 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 6:01:03am

but David Frum isn’t impressed:

79 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:03:01am

re: #77 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Word is that Rubio will declare his candidacy on April 13, with Rand Paul also in the wings.

These people are just showcasing themselves for the future and to keep their names in the press.

I don’t think they’re serious candidates, not with those ratings, even though they’d lie about it.

80 makeitstop  Mar 30, 2015 6:06:24am

re: #78 Backwoods_Sleuth

but David Frum isn’t impressed:

A conservative playing the arbiter of what’s funny…

Now that’s funny.

81 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 6:07:43am

re: #73 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

It is however taking part in what they consider to be sinful.

I don’t know what the solution should be. Maybe the “if you can’t handle this, you shouldn’t be in this business in the first place” approach, sort of what we have with doctors etc.

82 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 6:08:28am

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Oh hai fraudster!

[Embedded content]

Guerilla Journalist!!!!

Is that the same thing as Award-winning? ///

83 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:08:56am

re: #79 Justanotherhuman

Not to mention campaign contributions which has become a “feather your own nest” proposition these days. The amount of money you can spend on yourself and maintaining your image as a candidate is more than most people ever earn, and you can utilize “dark money” for actual advertising, per Citizens United.

The amount of money it takes to front a serious candidate is pretty obscene these days, fighting off the ankle biters who don’t have a chance of a snowball in hell.

84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 6:13:27am

re: #81 Nyet

It is however taking part in what they consider to be sinful.

I don’t know what the solution should be. Maybe the “if you can’t handle this, you shouldn’t be in this business in the first place” approach, sort of what we have with doctors etc.

The solution should be that they obey the law. If they really have a moral problem with it, then they should reconsider their line of work. But I think they are just upset that they are not allowed to express their homophobia through their business dealings.

85 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:14:35am

AP Exclusive: NSA Weighed Ending Phone Program Before Leak

abcnews.go.com

(snip)

“The internal critics pointed out that the already high costs of vacuuming up and storing the “to and from” information from nearly every domestic landline call were rising, the system was not capturing most cellphone calls, and the program was not central to unraveling terrorist plots, the officials said. They worried about public outrage if the program ever was revealed.

“After the program was disclosed, civil liberties advocates attacked it, saying the records could give a secret intelligence agency a road map to Americans’ private activities. NSA officials presented a forceful rebuttal that helped shape public opinion.

“Responding to widespread criticism, President Barack Obama in January 2014 proposed that the NSA stop collecting the records, but instead request them when needed in terrorism investigations from telephone companies, which tend to keep them for 18 months.”

More

86 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 6:15:17am

BBC: Alps crash: Lufthansa chief fears recorder too damaged

The plane flew into a vertical rock face at 500 mph, suggesting the data recorder may be damaged beyond recovery.

87 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 6:19:42am

re: #81 Nyet

I see there are businesses - wedding planners and such - that cater to specific religions. If that’s not discrimination, the fundies can simply call themselves “Fundie Christian wedding planners” and get away with it.

88 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:20:23am

re: #86 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

BBC: Alps crash: Lufthansa chief fears recorder too damaged

The plane flew into a vertical rock face at 500 mph, suggesting the data recorder may be have damaged beyond recovery.

Can we assume that it was a deliberate act by Lubitz? I imagine the investigation into his medical records could reveal the reason(s) for his action.

After all, Lubitz appears to have acted after the experienced pilot, with over 6K hours of flying, was locked out of the cockpit. Hard to believe that this was a simple “accident”.

89 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 6:21:43am

re: #88 Justanotherhuman

Can we assume that it was a deliberate act by Lubitz? I imagine the investigation into his medical records could reveal the reason(s) for his action.

After all, Lubitz appears to have acted after the experienced pilot, with over 6K hours of flying, was locked out of the cockpit. Hard to believe that this was a simple “accident”.

You obviously have not been watching the TV news, especially in Germany, it is all-to-wall Crashomania.

90 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 6:22:58am

re: #88 Justanotherhuman

Can we assume that it was a deliberate act by Lubitz?
”.

I think that was the assumption almost from the start, after the prosecutor’s presser.

91 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:25:06am

re: #87 Nyet

In the US, I think they simply have to use the appellation, “Christian”, and everyone knows what it means.

Real wedding planners don’t advertise a religious bias, but would accommodate the couple’s preference for a religious ceremony of any type, depending on their own experience and area of expertise.

92 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 6:26:07am

re: #88 Justanotherhuman

Can we assume that it was a deliberate act by Lubitz? I imagine the investigation into his medical records could reveal the reason(s) for his action.

After all, Lubitz appears to have acted after the experienced pilot, with over 6K hours of flying, was locked out of the cockpit. Hard to believe that this was a simple “accident”.

It was certainly deliberate. He refused to open the cockpit door for the pilot. The autopilot was reprogrammed to a standard descent from 38,000 ft to 100 ft, and the voice recorder captured the calm breathing of Lubitz as the plane headed for the mountains.

Maybe Lubitz could have passed out, or something, but he was still conscious enough to lock the door and reprogram the autopilot before that time.

93 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 6:26:24am

re: #89 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Well, I don’t speak German, so…

But there is always a tiny bit of doubt, in all fairness. : )

94 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 6:28:07am

re: #28 Kragar

[Embedded content]

That’s the kind of training mission the US is often able to excel at. Where it gets dicey is when American trainers, government funded or not, find themselves having to call attention to the fact that soldiers or park rangers died because of the corruption of senior officials. It’s at that point that too often 3rd World governments close ranks and want to get rid of the ‘meddlesome’ foreigners.

95 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 30, 2015 6:29:09am

re: #91 Justanotherhuman

In the US, I think they simply have to use the appellation, “Christian”, and everyone knows what it means.

Real wedding planners don’t advertise a religious bias, but would accommodate the couple’s preference for a religious ceremony of any type, depending on their own experience and area of expertise.

So, are there “Christian Divorce Attorneys” or is that part of the business still non-denominational?

96 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 6:36:37am

re: #90 Nyet

I know you like scholarly stuff, so when I saw this last night I thought I’d pass it along in case you’re interested:

Read Brill’s most popular articles from Q4 2014 in the subject area of Middle East & Islamic Studies (free through April 30)

97 Joe Bacon  Mar 30, 2015 6:44:40am

re: #78 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Sounds like Davey is describing himself!

98 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 6:44:56am

re: #96 CuriousLurker

Yay, thanks! Brill is really one of the best.

99 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 6:46:43am

There is outrage throughout the wingnutsphere today.

100 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 6:48:15am

re: #96 CuriousLurker

If anyone else is interested, they’re also offering subscriptions to some of their new journals through the end of the year, free of charge.

101 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 6:48:31am
102 Lancelot Link  Mar 30, 2015 6:51:01am

re: #99 Backwoods_Sleuth

There is outrage throughout the wingnutsphere today.

Let me guess - it’s a day ending in “y”, isn’t it?

103 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 6:51:28am

re: #98 Nyet

Yay, thanks! Brill is really one of the best.

I’m glad you like it! I’d never heard about them before last night (they were suggested by Twitter when I went to follow Ian Morris).

104 No Country For Old Haters  Mar 30, 2015 6:52:40am

re: #92 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

It was certainly deliberate. He refused to open the cockpit door for the pilot. The autopilot was reprogrammed to a standard descent from 38,000 ft to 100 ft, and the voice recorder captured the calm breathing of Lubitz as the plane headed for the mountains.

Maybe Lubitz could have passed out, or something, but he was still conscious enough to lock the door and reprogram the autopilot before that time.

He had to flip a switch to the lock position more than once in the time the pilot was trying to get back into the cockpit. Once you know how the door works, there’s no room left to believe this wasn’t intentional.

105 Flying Squirrel Girl  Mar 30, 2015 6:57:11am

re: #91 Justanotherhuman

My sister is a wedding coordinator in CO, and same sex weddings (which she welcomes) are growing very quickly. I guess there are some planners/coordinators who do not welcome the business, and she is happy to accommodate them.

106 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 6:58:00am
107 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 6:59:41am

re: #104 No Country For Old Haters

He had to flip a switch to the lock position more than once in the time the pilot was trying to get back into the cockpit. Once you know how the door works, there’s no room left to believe this wasn’t intentional.

Yup.

Even if the pilot could have gained access, there’s some doubt in my mind that he could have regained control of the plane in time. The BBC says the descent took only 8 minutes. If Lubitz had fought the pilot for control of the plane, there would be precious little time to pull up and avoid crashing.

108 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:00:07am

re: #106 Backwoods_Sleuth

BAM!

109 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 7:03:17am

re: #102 Lancelot Link

Let me guess - it’s a day ending in “y”, isn’t it?

Yes, I’m afraid so. There’s nothing worse than a day ending in “y”.

110 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 7:03:26am

re: #99 Backwoods_Sleuth

There is outrage throughout the wingnutsphere today.

[Embedded content]

Salon really annoys me sometimes.

It’s much ado about nothing, IMO. Based on what I’ve read, that’s the whole point of Israel—that there’s a safe haven that can be counted on, a specifically Jewish state where Jews are not “the other”, where they can go if ever faced with extreme prejudice/discrimination or even genocide again.

111 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:04:25am

re: #110 CuriousLurker

Salon really annoys me sometimes.

It’s much ado about nothing, IMO. Based on what I’ve read, that’s the whole point of Israel—that there’s a safe haven that can be counted on, a specifically Jewish state where Jews are not “the other”, where they can go if ever faced with extreme prejudice/discrimination or even genocide again.

I agree about Salon.
Every wingnut website is running with the story this morning.

112 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:04:39am
113 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 7:05:21am

After all the religious, legal, constitutional, and moral considerations are settled one question remains. Would you buy a cake from a fanatic who hates your guts?

114 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 7:06:34am

re: #110 CuriousLurker

Salon really annoys me sometimes.

It’s much ado about nothing, IMO. Based on what I’ve read, that’s the whole point of Israel—that there’s a safe haven that can be counted on, a specifically Jewish state where Jews are not “the other”, where they can go if ever faced with extreme prejudice/discrimination or even genocide again.

I think Uncle Joe is a hoot, but he’s not a man I’d send to goysplain Israel.

115 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 7:08:30am

re: #113 Decatur Deb

After all the religious, legal, constitutional, and moral considerations are settled one question remains. Would you buy a cake from a fanatic who hates your guts?

Bryan Fischer is convinced that the Gaystapo will send people out to order cakes so as to humiliate them and to force the gay agenda down their throats or whichever orifice pleases them at the time…

116 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 7:09:39am

re: #115 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Bryan Fischer is convinced that the Gaystapo will send people out to order cakes so as to humiliate them and to force the gay agenda down their throats or whichever orifice pleases them at the time…

Give me some time to contemplate the Gaystapo uniform.

117 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:10:03am

re: #116 Decatur Deb

Give me some time to contemplate the Gaystapo uniform.

It’s fabulous.

118 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:10:27am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

I think Uncle Joe is a hoot, but he’s not a man I’d send to goysplain Israel.

Which is part of why Salon trumpeted it. It can be promoted by them as a “Biden Gaffe” when speaking to liberals, but at the same time the story serves as clickbait for conservatives, who normally don’t visit Salon’s website. The objective is of course to sell advertising and magazines.

So hate will be spewed, but for Salon its all about the money.

119 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 7:10:31am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

I think Uncle Joe is a hoot, but he’s not a man I’d send to goysplain Israel.

Heh, yeah, he’s got a talent for putting his foot in his mouth, but I still think the article is stupid clickbait. I mean, it happened last Fall and people are freaking out about it now? Puhleez.

120 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:10:41am

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

It’s fabulous.

And suitable for both formal and semi-formal occasions.

121 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 7:10:48am

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

It’s fabulous.

But in a butch leather raincoat sort of way.

122 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:11:17am

re: #120 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

And suitable for both formal and semi-formal occasions.

And the jackboots…oh my…

123 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:13:38am

re: #116 Decatur Deb

Give me some time to contemplate the Gaystapo uniform.

It’s jacket and pants are teal trimmed with lavender, with the rainbow flag worn as a shoulder-flash. The shirt is eggshell and its worn with a pastel-pink tie.

//

124 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:15:02am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

It’s jacket and pants are teal trimmed with lavender, with the rainbow flag worn as a shoulder-flash. The shirt is eggshell and its worn with a pastel-pink tie.

//

Teal and lavender?? I’m straight and even I know that would be horrific!

Eggshell shirt and pink tie, though, is OK. Very Wall Street.

125 Lancelot Link  Mar 30, 2015 7:15:13am

re: #116 Decatur Deb

Give me some time to contemplate the Gaystapo uniform.

A Hugo Boss design?

126 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:15:17am

re: #122 Backwoods_Sleuth

And the jackboots…oh my…

They’re lighter than the traditional German ‘marching boot’ and they don’t have the stud pattern in the soles. Those scuff up the floors, you know…

127 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:16:30am

wow…

128 CuriousLurker  Mar 30, 2015 7:17:25am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

It’s jacket and pants are teal trimmed with lavender, with the rainbow flag worn as a shoulder-flash. The shirt is eggshell and its worn with a pastel-pink tie.

//

Teal & lavender?? You would totally #FAIL as a gay guy. //

Ugh, Monday—gotta get back to work. BBL

129 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:17:58am

re: #124 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Teal and lavender?? I’m straight and even I know that would be horrific!

Eggshell shirt and pink tie, though, is OK. Very Wall Street.

It was a joke using colors sometimes seen as ‘gay’. I guess light blue would work as trim, or white’s neutral enough.

/I know I’m overthinking this, but I couldn’t help myself.

130 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 7:18:19am

re: #99 Backwoods_Sleuth

OK, that is a very stupid statement by Joe, but since it’s in support, of Israel, why are they whinging?

131 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 7:18:47am

re: #127 Backwoods_Sleuth

wow…

[Embedded content]

Lot of that going around.

132 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:20:20am

re: #130 Nyet

OK, that is a very stupid statement by Joe, but since it’s in support, of Israel, why are they whinging?

Because Biden said it…

133 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 7:22:54am

re: #116 Decatur Deb

Give me some time to contemplate the Gaystapo uniform.

Maybe Hugo Boss will try again?/

134 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:24:47am
135 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:27:36am

Mornin’ everyone. Yesterday was my b-day…had an awesome day with my wife. Went golfing (in a teal shirt), parred the first hole and then two more as well as just missing par on two others. Then a nice lunch and a loop through the upper Santa Cruz mountains on the way home to avoid the tourists clogging up the main road into our area.

Yes, teal, D_F. Colors aren’t gay. (I know, you were trying to be funny. Try harder.)

136 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:29:15am
137 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 7:30:04am

RWNJs are currently flipping their shit over Tim Cook’s editorial. What a fun way to start a Monday. I am amused.

138 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:31:28am

re: #136 darthstar

[Embedded content]

If Jeb Bush isn’t right wing enough for you………

139 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:33:34am

re: #137 Lidane

RWNJs are currently flipping their shit over Tim Cook’s editorial. What a fun way to start a Monday. I am amused.

Countdown to a call for a RW boycott of Apple products begins now.

140 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:34:13am

re: #132 Backwoods_Sleuth

Because Biden said it…

And because they can use it as an example of how Biden ‘really feels’ in order to further portray President Obama as outside the American mainstream and ‘overly pro-Muslim’. This will be enhanced by a secondary wave of “OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!1” when Biden tries to correct the record. He’ll be portrayed as ‘being forced to walk his statement back to cover up the foreign policy failures and lies of Obama!”.

Biden’s not actually the target here, Obama is.

141 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:35:21am

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

And because they can use it as an example of how Biden ‘really feels’ in order to further portray President Obama as outside the American mainstream and ‘overly pro-Muslim’. This will be enhanced by a secondary wave of “OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!1” when Biden tries to correct the record. He’ll be portrayed as ‘being forced to walk his statement back to cover up the foreign policy failures and lies of Obama!”.

Biden’s not actually the target here, Obama is.

Biden will probably play it smart and not say anything. No point in throwing gasoline on the fire.

142 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:36:06am

re: #139 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Countdown to a call for a RW boycott of Apple products begins now.

I think Apple would like that. A decent way to appeal to urban hipsters is to be hated by rural evangelicals. Sectionalism runs both ways, after all, and there’s plenty of ways to profit from it.

143 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 7:36:53am

re: #135 darthstar

Happy BD! And many more, for sure. : )

144 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:37:16am

re: #138 HappyWarrior

If Jeb Bush isn’t right wing enough for you………

I just like how the whole association with white supremacists thing is now in the past and Scalise can be asked about the future of the big tent party.

145 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:37:47am

re: #139 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Countdown to a call for a RW boycott of Apple products begins now.

Weren’t they already boycotting Apple since Cook came out as gay?

146 Targetpractice  Mar 30, 2015 7:38:15am

re: #136 darthstar

[Embedded content]

There’s this delusion amongst wingnuts that what the public at large is really looking for is a candidate who will refuse “moderate” moniker and instead be unapologetically conservative, as in to the right of Attila the Hun.

147 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:38:17am

re: #144 darthstar

I just like how the whole association with white supremacists thing is now in the past and Scalise can be asked about the future of the big tent party.

I was thinking the same thing.

148 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:38:20am

Oh yeah…my driver’s license expired yesterday…I get to go to the DMV and hang out with the cool people.

149 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:39:30am

re: #145 HappyWarrior

Weren’t they already boycotting Apple since Cook came out as gay?

He is? But I’ve never seen him in teal.
/

150 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:40:01am

re: #146 Targetpractice

There’s this delusion amongst wingnuts that what the public at large is really looking for is a candidate who will refuse “moderate” moniker and instead be unapologetically conservative, as in to the right of Attila the Hun.

Sideshow Bob: Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may move you to vote Democratic, but deep down you long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That’s why I did this, to save you from yourselves. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a city to run.

I’m Sideshow Bob and I approve this message.

151 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 7:40:31am

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

I think Apple would like that. A decent way to appeal to urban hipsters is to be hated by rural evangelicals. Sectionalism runs both ways, after all, and there’s plenty of ways to profit from it.

Oh, pleases. I’m no urban hipster, but OTOH, I don’t hate Apple, just can’t afford their products, and had a former bad experience w/them, but that was years ago.

Many of us on this site use MS and clone hardware, so try stop dividing people up into “goods” and “bads”.

152 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:41:51am
153 darthstar  Mar 30, 2015 7:42:33am

Okay…battery about dead. Time to go meet the day. Laterz.

154 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:42:36am

re: #149 darthstar

He is? But I’ve never seen him in teal.
/

Heh yeah. And that really is part of why Indiana’s new law is so fucking stupid. the bigots that passed it think every gay person is a flaming stereotype.

155 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 7:42:42am

re: #139 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Countdown to a call for a RW boycott of Apple products begins now.

ZOMG CHINA! seems to be their rallying cry. Never mind that Hobby Lobby and Walmart both get a fair amount of their inventory from China.

Another one seems to be CLINTON/OBAMA/[INSERT DEM HERE] VOTED FOR THIS LAW BEFORE! as if that makes a difference, or as if that would somehow make the RFRA a good law. Clinton signed both DOMA and DADT into law and those were shitty laws.

156 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:45:06am

Last Thursday, three young black men used the death of Michael Brown as an excuse to beat on a middle-aged white guy. After it happened, Antonio French showed how you handle a situation where people who are going to be identified with you do something shitty:

Note: This is what integrity looks like, not making excuses and demanding everyone obey the law.

157 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 7:46:03am

I don’t use many Apple products, but I’m not a hater. I’m just used to Windows. Regarding the Apple CEO, as much as it was a feel good thing to hear, it is also a pragmatic thing to hear also. Foreign talent may get wind of so many of these reactionary moves in the US that they may think it’s either going to keep spreading or that it is already typical of America. Right wingers can’t think past the nose on their face.

158 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:47:29am

I use both Apple and Microsoft products. Now if Cook really wants to get my respect he needs to call for the creation of a new iPod Classic because that was their finest product IMO.

159 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:47:41am

Latest reports are saying there is one fatality.

160 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 7:48:01am

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Somehow I think those assholes would have beaten the victim, Michael Brown or no Michael Brown.
Surely this thought has occurred to you at some point in your life, or do you just pounce on shiny objects?

161 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 30, 2015 7:48:47am

re: #159 Backwoods_Sleuth

2 men disguised as women

Was one James O’Keefe? //

162 Jenner7  Mar 30, 2015 7:49:02am

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Oh look, everybody! A black guy admonished black guys beating a white guy up! Good for him. Good for him. Now, if more black people would do this, racism will be over.

163 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 30, 2015 7:49:50am

re: #149 darthstar

I’ve also never seen him with Superman. Or Clark Kent!

164 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:50:03am

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Of course, others used the incident to indulge in the same sort of racism that has done so much damage in and around St. Louis:

While still others used it to demonstrate their lack of understanding about firearms:

And that’s your day’s first dose of racial and gun DERP.

165 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 7:51:40am

Senior US official says incident outside Fort Meade, site of NSA headquarters, appears to be ‘local criminal matter’ - @NBCNews
end of alert

166 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:52:38am

re: #160 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

Somehow I think those assholes would have beaten the victim, Michael Brown or no Michael Brown.
Surely this thought has occurred to you at some point in your life, or do you just pounce on shiny objects?

Yeah, that occurred to me. But I wanted to draw attention to French’s handling of something that was sure to be used against him. We’ve seen far to many people try to weasel in such cases, even when they aren’t at fault, mostly for fear of angering nutbar supporters. So it was refreshing seeing someone take the route of candor.

167 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 7:52:42am

re: #157 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

Foreign talent may get wind of so many of these reactionary moves in the US that they may think it’s either going to keep spreading or that it is already typical of America.

This is exactly it.

For all their supposed love of the free market, RWNJ dipshits don’t seem to understand how it works. The big multinationals that they revere as “job creators” hate these kinds of pro-bigotry laws because they not only hurt the bottom line worldwide for the reasons you mention, but it makes it that much harder for them to effectively recruit and retain the best talent pool possible.

It’s the same reason why these big companies are open and inclusive as a matter of policy, and why they want comprehensive immigration reform and for same-sex marriage to be legal across the board. They want to be able to go anywhere and get the best people they can for the job, and give them all the benefits and perks they can without having to jump through a bunch of administrative hoops.

168 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 7:52:53am

Birthers will be all over this, doncha know.,.

President Obama to make his first visit as president to Kenya, where his father was born - @AP_Politics
read more on bigstory.ap.org

169 #FergusonFireside  Mar 30, 2015 7:53:49am

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

It’s always up to the black people to respond correctly. To separate themselves from the bad elements.

We make Muslims do the same.

It’s utter bullshit.

170 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 7:54:38am
171 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 7:54:38am

re: #158 HappyWarrior

I use both Apple and Microsoft products. Now if Cook really wants to get my respect he needs to call for the creation of a new iPod Classic because that was their finest product IMO.

God, it still kills me that they got rid of the iPod Classic. I’ve got a 160GB Classic that’s on its last legs (it can’t hold a charge for shit anymore) but I’ve resisted getting a Touch so far. I’ll probably break down at some point and put all my music in the cloud and buy a Touch, but I really don’t wanna. :-P

172 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 7:55:37am

What’s to “clarify”? Everyone knows what this pernicious law does.

Indiana’s Top Lawmakers Looking To Clarify Religious Freedom Law

talkingpointsmemo.com

Just repeal it and make everyone happy.

173 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 7:56:37am

re: #169 #FergusonFireside

It’s always up to the black people to respond correctly. To separate themselves from the bad elements.

We make Muslims do the same.

It’s utter bullshit.

That’s not what I was trying to say, but I understand how it could come across that way.

174 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 7:56:45am

re: #170 Backwoods_Sleuth

Wait ‘til he finds out how many have black friends.

175 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:56:47am

re: #167 Lidane

This is exactly it.

For all their supposed love of the free market, RWNJ dipshits don’t seem to understand how it works. The big multinationals that they revere as “job creators” hate these kinds of pro-bigotry laws because they not only hurt the bottom line worldwide for the reasons you mention, but it makes it that much harder for them to effectively recruit and retain the best talent pool possible.

It’s the same reason why these big companies are open and inclusive as a matter of policy, and why they want comprehensive immigration reform and for same-sex marriage to be legal across the board. They want to be able to go anywhere and get the best people they can for the job, and give them all the benefits and perks they can without having to jump through a bunch of administrative hoops.

It’s why the right isn’t as “pro business” as they claim to be. Really what these idiots don’t get is by allowing discrimination based off of “religious beliefs” to occur, you’re going to discourage a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in moving somewhere to take a job and that’s bad for business. I mean these laws are so stupid. Really if these so called Christian bakers or florists have such a problem with gay people then maybe they shouldn’t be in the business if they’re going to get butt hurt by having to deal with gay people. But what I always do is point out that I could if I wanted to use the same law to discriminate against evangelical Christians and that’s usually when they shut up.

176 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 7:57:32am

re: #171 Lidane

God, it still kills me that they got rid of the iPod Classic. I’ve got a 160GB Classic that’s on its last legs (it can’t hold a charge for shit anymore) but I’ve resisted getting a Touch so far. I’ll probably break down at some point and put all my music in the cloud and buy a Touch, but I really don’t wanna. :-P

If you’re going to put your music on the cloud, just use your phone to retrieve and play it.

With modern smart/super phones the iPod is obsolete.

177 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:58:03am

re: #171 Lidane

God, it still kills me that they got rid of the iPod Classic. I’ve got a 160GB Classic that’s on its last legs (it can’t hold a charge for shit anymore) but I’ve resisted getting a Touch so far. I’ll probably break down at some point and put all my music in the cloud and buy a Touch, but I really don’t wanna. :-P

I got mine right before they stopped making them last year. But yeah I don’t want a touch. It’s got more gizmos and gadgets but all that stuff that it has, I use for my phone and my kindle anyhow. my iPod is simply for my music library.

178 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:59:23am

re: #172 Justanotherhuman

What’s to “clarify”? Everyone knows what this pernicious law does.

Indiana’s Top Lawmakers Looking To Clarify Religious Freedom Law

talkingpointsmemo.com

Just repeal it and make everyone happy.

They really stepped in shit and they know it. Hey maybe next time, don’t pass laws to pass narrow minded bigots that believe gay people are demons, mkay.

179 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 7:59:55am

And businesses think of this next time, you give a Republican gubernatorial candidate a generous donation.

180 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:00:57am

re: #169 #FergusonFireside

It’s always up to the black people to respond correctly. To separate themselves from the bad elements.

We make Muslims do the same.

It’s utter bullshit.

Yeah, it’s ridiculous. Black people have to apologize and distant themselves from every wrong but the same is not expected of whites. Great point about Muslims too.

181 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:03:46am

I mean we pretty much banned discrimination based on everything but sexual orientation in the CRA-1964. That’s something I thought mots of us agreed was the right thing to do. But then again we do have a certain Republican presidential candidate whose name rhymes with BAnd Haul who says he would have voted against it. Really these business owners banning gay people are nothing more than the modern day versions of the Jim Crow south and like the Jim Crow south, they have governments encouraging their bigotry.

182 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 8:07:58am

re: #181 HappyWarrior

I mean we pretty much banned discrimination based on everything but sexual orientation in the CRA-1964. That’s something I thought mots of us agreed was the right thing to do. But then again we do have a certain Republican presidential candidate whose name rhymes with BAnd Haul who says he would have voted against it. Really these business owners banning gay people are nothing more than the modern day versions of the Jim Crow south and like the Jim Crow south, they have governments encouraging their bigotry.

BAnd Haul blindly believes the magic hand of the free market would kill most racism and other discriminatory practices.

183 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:09:08am

re: #182 b_sharp

BAnd Haul blindly believes the magic hand of the free market would kill most racism and other discriminatory practices.

Which is in the book of fairy tales for Ayn Rand fans.

184 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 8:10:47am

re: #175 HappyWarrior

I just had an RWNJ ask me if I would be okay with an LGBT person demanding that a Jewish baker make them a cake on the Sabbath. I had to point out that their example makes no sense. If that Jewish baker is observant enough to not work on the Sabbath, their customers, both gay and straight, would know that because the bakery would close early on Friday and be closed all day Saturday. There would be no way to demand a cake on the Sabbath.

185 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:11:10am

re: #182 b_sharp

BAnd Haul blindly believes the magic hand of the free market would kill most racism and other discriminatory practices.

Free marketeers just want their gilded age back, that’s all.

186 #FergusonFireside  Mar 30, 2015 8:11:16am

You may have seen this, but this shows exactly why this law was passed.

187 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 8:13:09am

re: #186 #FergusonFireside

Bestiality and adultery are forbidden by the Bible. So is homosexuality. Therefore, to these people, they are identical.

188 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:13:32am

re: #184 Lidane

I just had an RWNJ ask me if I would be okay with an LGBT person demanding that a Jewish baker make them a cake on the Sabbath. I had to point out that their example makes no sense. If that Jewish baker is observant enough to not work on the Sabbath, their customers, both gay and straight, would know that because the bakery would close early on Friday and be closed all day Saturday. There would be no way to demand a cake on the Sabbath.

Right, it’s an absurd example. I’d be curious to know if any of these “Christian bakers” have turned divorcees, people with criminal records, etc. It seems to me that it’s an excuse to not serve gay people. It’s one thing for a pastor who is a religious official to decline to perform a service. It’s another thing when you’re talking about cake or flowers.

189 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:13:55am

re: #186 #FergusonFireside

You may have seen this, but this shows exactly why this law was passed.

[Embedded content]

Behold the Republican base.

190 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:14:07am

US consumer spending tepid; savings at 2-year high - @ReutersBiz

reuters.com

Well, after all, there is just so much people can consume…

191 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:14:54am

re: #180 HappyWarrior

To be fair to DF, he might have meant that more people should respond to racist attacks on minorities like AF responded to this racist attack.

192 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:15:50am

re: #188 HappyWarrior

Right, it’s an absurd example. I’d be curious to know if any of these “Christian bakers” have turned divorcees, people with criminal records, etc. It seems to me that it’s an excuse to not serve gay people. It’s one thing for a pastor who is a religious official to decline to perform a service. It’s another thing when you’re talking about cake or flowers.

And if you are LGBT and belong to that church and are refused a wedding, for gawd’s sake, leave it and go to one where you’re welcome.

193 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:17:09am

re: #191 Nyet

To be fair to DF, he might have meant that more people should respond to racist attacks on minorities like AF responded to this racist attack.

True that. I am just saying. There does exist a double standard where religious and racial minorities have to condemn crimes done by their elements where there’s really no pressure for the majority group to the same.That is to say Christians aren’t expected to denounce bombings of abortion clinics or the Christian Identity movement but Muslims are expected to denounce Islamic terrorism or else be seen as just as guilty. It’s the same thing with race.

194 Dark_Falcon  Mar 30, 2015 8:17:32am

re: #191 Nyet

To be fair to DF, he might have meant that more people should respond to racist attacks on minorities like AF responded to this racist attack.

Thank you for that. BBL

195 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:18:03am

re: #192 Justanotherhuman

And if you are LGBT and belong to that church and are refused a wedding, for gawd’s sake, leave it and go to one where you’re welcome.

The ones that are I have to say really fucked up are when the pastor or priest finds out a deceased person who he agreed to officiate a funeral for was gay and decides to deny the service. There’s something really evil about that IMO.

196 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 8:18:05am

Heh.

197 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:18:35am

Mr. Creosote Blows Up

198 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 8:18:54am

re: #184 Lidane

I just had an RWNJ ask me if I would be okay with an LGBT person demanding that a Jewish baker make them a cake on the Sabbath. I had to point out that their example makes no sense. If that Jewish baker is observant enough to not work on the Sabbath, their customers, both gay and straight, would know that because the bakery would close early on Friday and be closed all day Saturday. There would be no way to demand a cake on the Sabbath.

There is no way to kill that false equivalency, it is firmly established in the RWNJ echo chamber.

199 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:19:43am

re: #175 HappyWarrior

It’s why the right isn’t as “pro business” as they claim to be. Really what these idiots don’t get is by allowing discrimination based off of “religious beliefs” to occur, you’re going to discourage a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in moving somewhere to take a job and that’s bad for business. I mean these laws are so stupid. Really if these so called Christian bakers or florists have such a problem with gay people then maybe they shouldn’t be in the business if they’re going to get butt hurt by having to deal with gay people. But what I always do is point out that I could if I wanted to use the same law to discriminate against evangelical Christians and that’s usually when they shut up.

The goal of this law isn’t really to defend a single florist or baker. It’s really aimed to allow a rural town to “keep the ghey out” by denying services in general. If the sole grocery or butcher in a town denies service then it generates an immediate pressure for the person(s) being denied to move elsewhere.

Someone (Frank?) covered this over the weekend. And it’s the same discrimination de jure that will be orchestrated in the background against blacks, Jews, etc. if this law holds up.

And this is the main reason why I think local government is the main threat instead of the state or federal level. By turning a blind eye, or with some minor complicity, they can turn someone’s life to a complete hell for the most trivial of reasons.

200 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:21:23am

re: #199 Feline Fearless Leader

The goal of this law isn’t really to defend a single florist or baker. It’s really aimed to allow a rural town to “keep the ghey out” by denying services in general. If the sole grocery or butcher in a town denies service then it generates an immediate pressure for the person(s) being denied to move elsewhere.

Someone (Frank?) covered this over the weekend. And it’s the same discrimination de jure that will be orchestrated in the background against blacks, Jews, etc. if this law holds up.

And this is the main reason why I think local government is the main threat instead of the state or federal level. By turning a blind eye, or with some minor complicity, they can turn someone’s life to a complete hell for the most trivial of reasons.

I agree with both you and Frank. And you make an excellent point about local government being a bigger threat to individual liberty than the state or federal.

201 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:23:20am

re: #165 Justanotherhuman

Senior US official says incident outside Fort Meade, site of NSA headquarters, appears to be ‘local criminal matter’ - @NBCNews
end of alert

Translation: They were White guys.

202 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 8:29:38am
203 Romantic Heretic  Mar 30, 2015 8:30:14am

re: #33 goddamnedfrank

I think if I had a bakery my policy would be abstract and geometric designs only. Just because I think that’s way cooler than trying to make shit look like other shit.

Embedded Image

My cake shop would also be inexplicably located at the end of a long dungeon filled with monsters just like in Phantasy Star 1. I’d want my customers to be highly motivated cake buyers and not just random assholes off the street.

The cake is a lie.

204 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:30:42am

O’Queef made another “startling video”: Catholic university officials caught on secret video approving student club devoted to raising money for ISIS

The 24 hour rule is in effect until the unedited truth is revealed.

205 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 8:31:15am

re: #187 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Bestiality and adultery are forbidden by the Bible. So is homosexuality. Therefore, to these people, they are identical.

Their lives are on a slide to obscurity down the slippery slope so they want to believe everyone else is too.

206 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 8:31:44am

This will be Obama’s first visit to Kentucky as President.

207 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:32:02am

re: #202 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Saw that last night. She’ll make a good senator.

208 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 8:32:39am

Ha!

209 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 30, 2015 8:33:50am

re: #184 Lidane

I just had an RWNJ ask me if I would be okay with an LGBT person demanding that a Jewish baker make them a cake on the Sabbath. I had to point out that their example makes no sense. If that Jewish baker is observant enough to not work on the Sabbath, their customers, both gay and straight, would know that because the bakery would close early on Friday and be closed all day Saturday. There would be no way to demand a cake on the Sabbath.

if they worked on the sabbath, they must serve everybody on the sabbath. and if a muslim artist makes nasty pictures of mohammed, he must make them for everybody

and a jewish baker cant refuse to make a christian wedding cake and a christian baker cant refuse to write hebrew on a wedding cake

but nobody can make you get out of bed at three in the morning to work, and nobody can make you make things that your business does not already produce

210 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:34:34am

re: #209 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

if they worked on the sabbath, they must serve everybody on the sabbath. and if a muslim artist makes nasty pictures of mohammed, he must make them for everybody

and a jewish baker cant refuse to make a christian wedding cake and a christian baker cant refuse to write hebrew on a wedding cake

but nobody can make you get out of bed at three in the morning to work, and nobody can make you make things that your business does not already produce

Exactly.

211 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:35:49am

Pence and the Indiana legislators passed a law to address a non-existent problem. In other words, they followed status quo for the GOP.

212 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:36:04am

Wondering if Snowald sent them. //

US official: Reports say 1 dead at Fort Meade gate crashing

bigstory.ap.org

213 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 8:36:36am

Ted is delusional. I know plenty of Republicans here in Texas who can’t stand him or his idiot voter base:

214 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 8:38:11am

re: #213 Lidane

Ted is delusional. I know plenty of Republicans here in Texas who can’t stand him or his idiot voter base:

[Embedded content]

He’s not likable because he’s been fed this savior complex by his old man. He really does believe he’s here to save America. While the rest of us and I think even most Republicans see a narcissistic asshole who loves seeing himself on the 11:00 news.

215 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:38:37am

re: #208 Lidane

Ha!

[Embedded content]

Rigor mortis FTW! /

216 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:39:47am

re: #211 Dr. Matt

Pence and the Indiana legislators passed a law to address a non-existent problem. In other words, they followed status quo for the GOP.

They were just trying to set up Pink Crow, and did a pretty miserable job of it since they didn’t have their defensive talking points ready in advance. And Pence must of thought that signing it settled things instead of opening up a can of worms.

217 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:42:14am

re: #216 Feline Fearless Leader

They were just trying to set up Pink Crow, and did a pretty miserable job of it since they didn’t have their defensive talking points ready in advance. And Pence must of thought that signing it settled things instead of opening up a can of worms.

Just wait until ‘The Law of Unintended Consequences’ comes around and bites them in the ass.

218 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:43:08am

re: #215 Nyet

219 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 8:44:03am

Holy shit.

Australian immigration department accidentally sent personal details of world leaders attending G20 event to soccer organizers; Obama, Putin and others not told of exposure

theguardian.com

“In an email sent to the commissioner’s office, obtained under Australia’s freedom of information laws, the breach is attributed to an employee who mistakenly emailed a member of the local organising committee of the Asian Cup - held in Australia in January - with the personal information.” (my emphasis)

Either that is one dumb asshole employed by the comm’s office, or it wasn’t a “mistake” since it was sent to only one person of the local “organising committee of the Asian Cup”.

220 Romantic Heretic  Mar 30, 2015 8:44:44am

re: #127 Backwoods_Sleuth

wow…

[Embedded content]

Nothing suspicious about that at all. //

221 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 8:44:51am

re: #209 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

if they worked on the sabbath, they must serve everybody on the sabbath. and if a muslim artist makes nasty pictures of mohammed, he must make them for everybody

and a jewish baker cant refuse to make a christian wedding cake and a christian baker cant refuse to write hebrew on a wedding cake

but nobody can make you get out of bed at three in the morning to work, and nobody can make you make things that your business does not already produce

And if a bakery carries only mixed-couple cake toppers, you cannot force them to stock same-sex (or inter-species) figures.

222 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:45:46am

re: #217 Dr. Matt

Just wait until ‘The Law of Unintended Consequences’ comes around and bites them in the ass.

Already is with the Church of Cannibus filing.

Though this is a pin prick since the goal is discrimination in the smaller towns and rural areas. The larger cities have already been given up. Though I am sure if there isn’t much kickback you’ll see some of the suburbs attempt to segregate themselves via service denial.

223 Romantic Heretic  Mar 30, 2015 8:45:50am

re: #130 Nyet

OK, that is a very stupid statement by Joe, but since it’s in support, of Israel, why are they whinging?

Pavlovian reaction. The Administration says something and the wingnuts start foaming.

224 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:46:40am

Something else for the Librul Media to ignore:

225 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:47:12am

re: #221 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

And if a bakery carries only mixed-couple cake toppers, you cannot force them to stock same-sex (or inter-species) figures.

Though I am sure that if you’re the jokester running the bakery you can set-up the latter under cover of having animal figures on hand for 4H-related cakes.
;P

226 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 8:48:44am

Can an Auburn fan refuse to decorate a ‘Bama Ironbowl cake?

227 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:49:42am

re: #226 Decatur Deb

Can an Auburn fan refuse to decorate a ‘Bama Ironbowl cake?

It does qualify as a religious belief down that way, doesn’t it?

228 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 8:50:30am

re: #227 Feline Fearless Leader

It does qualify as a religious belief down that way, doesn’t it?

Deeply-held.

229 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 8:51:18am

re: #226 Decatur Deb

Can an Auburn fan refuse to decorate a ‘Bama Ironbowl cake?

Would an Auburn fan actually trust a ‘Bama fan with such a task? I have a feeling that would be a bodily fluid-flavored cake.

230 Romantic Heretic  Mar 30, 2015 8:51:44am

re: #175 HappyWarrior

It’s why the right isn’t as “pro business” as they claim to be. Really what these idiots don’t get is by allowing discrimination based off of “religious beliefs” to occur, you’re going to discourage a lot of people who would otherwise be interested in moving somewhere to take a job and that’s bad for business. I mean these laws are so stupid. Really if these so called Christian bakers or florists have such a problem with gay people then maybe they shouldn’t be in the business if they’re going to get butt hurt by having to deal with gay people. But what I always do is point out that I could if I wanted to use the same law to discriminate against evangelical Christians and that’s usually when they shut up.

You can make them shut up?

Teach me how.

231 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:53:08am

re: #218 Nyet

Here’s the movie with English subs, if anyone is interested. It is the first Soviet horror movie, after all. Personally, I love it.

232 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 8:55:52am

re: #231 Nyet

Here’s the movie with English subs, if anyone is interested. It is the first Soviet horror movie, after all. Personally, I love it.

Bookmarked.

(Doesn’t Eisenstein’s Ivan the Terrible count?)

233 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 8:56:30am

re: #206 Backwoods_Sleuth

This will be Obama’s first visit to Kentucky as President.

Wow, would have thought he’d gotten there already. Not that far from DC, relatively speaking.

234 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:57:14am

re: #232 Decatur Deb

OK, supernatural horror. /

235 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 8:57:17am

re: #231 Nyet

Here’s the movie with English subs, if anyone is interested. It is the first Soviet horror movie, after all. Personally, I love it.

I would have thought the first of those would have featured zombie Trotsky.

But, then again, a Soviet vampire movie would also make sense since who better than a vampire to represent the blood-sucking (literally) upper classes continuing to victimize the hard-working proletariat workers!

236 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 8:58:41am

re: #235 Feline Fearless Leader

It’s a witch movie, tho some vampires appear at the end. The special effects are B-level, if not worse, but I like the atmosphere.

237 Varek Raith  Mar 30, 2015 8:59:24am

re: #208 Lidane

Ha!

[Embedded content]

We really do.

238 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 9:01:07am

re: #235 Feline Fearless Leader

I would have thought the first of those would have featured zombie Trotsky.

But, then again, a Soviet vampire movie would also make sense since who better than a vampire to represent the blood-sucking (literally) upper classes continuing to victimize the hard-working proletariat workers!

ItT was a ‘historical’ film, but the lighting, photography, production were pure 1930s Horror. Lot of Nosfersatu, some Frankenstein.

239 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 9:01:35am

Some of the British rags are claiming that Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz was gay. It’s just a matter of time before the RWNJs drop his “links to Islam” and start blaming Teh Gays.

240 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 9:02:23am

re: #221 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

And if a bakery carries only mixed-couple cake toppers, you cannot force them to stock same-sex (or inter-species) figures.

How about an old white guy and a picnic table?

241 Targetpractice  Mar 30, 2015 9:03:14am

Most folks know about the shit going down in Indiana, but I just found out about this today:

‘No Gays Allowed’ Law Set To Pass In Virginia

The Virginia Bill states that anyone seeking or holding a business license from the state of Virginia in the state can refuse service or entry to gay people, on the grounds it “would violate the religious or moral convictions of such person with respect to same-sex “marriage” or homosexual behavior.

Thankfully, the bill’s been tabled, which means for the moment it is dead. But it’s a product of our own Bob Marshall, who folks might remember wanted a law passed barring homosexuals from serving in the VA National Guard and objected to the appointment of a judge because he was perceived as pro-gay marriage.

Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

242 #FergusonFireside  Mar 30, 2015 9:03:49am

The jury in the Tsarnaev trial is hearing about/seeing the injuries to little Martin Richard. Some are sobbing.

:(

243 Lancelot Link  Mar 30, 2015 9:04:19am

re: #231 Nyet

I love that movie, too - and i thought the effects were outstanding.

244 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 9:05:07am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Most folks know about the shit going down in Indiana, but I just found out about this today:

‘No Gays Allowed’ Law Set To Pass In Virginia
snip…
Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

Shouldn’t they be busy organizing the big Appomattox re-enactment?

245 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 9:06:14am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Most folks know about the shit going down in Indiana, but I just found out about this today:

‘No Gays Allowed’ Law Set To Pass In Virginia

Thankfully, the bill’s been tabled, which means for the moment it is dead. But it’s a product of our own Bob Marshall, who folks might remember wanted a law passed barring homosexuals from serving in the VA National Guard and objected to the appointment of a judge because he was perceived as pro-gay marriage.

Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

Is it labelled ‘Troglodyte Throwback Bill’?

246 Frenchy  Mar 30, 2015 9:06:44am

re: #211 Dr. Matt

But..but…the problem is the repression of old white Christian males!!1!

247 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 9:07:36am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Also, too:

“Hi, I’m Gov. Terry McAuliffe. Say hello to my little veto friend.”

248 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 9:07:47am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

They could secede and create the state of South Virginia

249 Timothy Watson  Mar 30, 2015 9:10:06am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Most folks know about the shit going down in Indiana, but I just found out about this today:

‘No Gays Allowed’ Law Set To Pass In Virginia

Thankfully, the bill’s been tabled, which means for the moment it is dead. But it’s a product of our own Bob Marshall, who folks might remember wanted a law passed barring homosexuals from serving in the VA National Guard and objected to the appointment of a judge because he was perceived as pro-gay marriage.

Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

Thankfully, Bob Marshal has pissed off so many people here in Virginia his nutbar legislation gets less progress in the General Assembly than it used to.

250 Varek Raith  Mar 30, 2015 9:12:43am

re: #241 Targetpractice

Most folks know about the shit going down in Indiana, but I just found out about this today:

‘No Gays Allowed’ Law Set To Pass In Virginia

Thankfully, the bill’s been tabled, which means for the moment it is dead. But it’s a product of our own Bob Marshall, who folks might remember wanted a law passed barring homosexuals from serving in the VA National Guard and objected to the appointment of a judge because he was perceived as pro-gay marriage.

Another reminder that the only reason VA is a purple state these days is because of the northern counties. That the farther south you travel from Fairfax, the deeper the red gets.

AKA, Not Real Virginia.
/

251 BlueSpotinAL  Mar 30, 2015 9:15:56am

re: #233 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse

Wow, would have thought he’d gotten there already. Not that far from DC, relatively speaking.

Distance wise Kentucky is close to DC. Timewise, about 150 years away.

252 A Cranky One  Mar 30, 2015 9:20:10am

re: #202 Lidane

[Embedded content]

I think the following says a great deal about both the Tea Fear Party and Tammy Duckwork. This happened during a debate between deadbeat dad Joe Walsh and Tammy Duckworth:

“I was marching in a parade in Schaumburg, Sunday, two days before the Democratic convention, when Tammy Duckworth was on a stage down in Charlotte — if you can look at the picture — picking out a dress for her speech Tuesday night,” Walsh said, holding up a photo.

The crowd noise surged with boos and cheers, as it reportedly did throughout the night, while Duckworth prepared her rejoinder.

“He’s trying to distract the discussion from the real issues that are at hand. And yes, I do sometimes look at the clothes that I wear,” she said. “But for most of my adult life, I’ve worn one color — it’s called camouflage.”

Zing!

253 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 9:21:26am
Maru doesn’t have this problem

Only took Chat Noir five minutes or so of playing with an empty tissue box to pull this one off. (And of course since it had a plastic “liner” at the top he couldn’t get it off very easily.)

254 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 9:21:32am

OK, this is jolly:

The Texas Nationalist Movement confirmed a meeting with a DNR representative in Moscow in December and said “Novorossiya” - another term for rebel-controlled parts of Ukraine - had a “fundamental right” to self determination.

telegraph.co.uk

255 Varek Raith  Mar 30, 2015 9:22:43am

re: #253 Feline Fearless Leader

[Embedded content]

Only took Chat Noir five minutes or so of playing with an empty tissue box to pull this one off. (And of course since it had a plastic “liner” at the top he couldn’t get it off very easily.)

Do I have something in my teeth???

256 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 9:22:50am

re: #253 Feline Fearless Leader

[Embedded content]

Only took Chat Noir five minutes or so of playing with an empty tissue box to pull this one off. (And of course since it had a plastic “liner” at the top he couldn’t get it off very easily.)

And instead of helping him take it off you took a picture. Tsk tsk.

257 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 9:24:43am

re: #256 b_sharp

And instead of helping him take it off you took a picture. Tsk tsk.

Yes. Guilty as charged. Took the picture and then took the box off him.

I think Tuxedo Cat was amused since she watched the entire episode from the cat tree. Including Chat Noir doing a half-lap around the living room with the box stuck there right after it happened.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 30, 2015 9:25:24am

Hey Photographers!

Arkansas is up to even more stupid sh*t.

There is legislation in the works to require releases from ANY recognizable person in an image used online.

Please read my new page.

259 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 9:30:59am

re: #258 William Barnett-Lewis

Hey Photographers!

Arkansas is up to even more stupid sh*t.

There is legislation in the works to require releases from ANY recognizable person in an image used online.

Please read my new page.

I guess this is an attempt by Arkansas to get all the photo and video media to stop covering the state.
///

260 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 9:31:19am
261 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 9:33:46am

re: #260 Lidane

Indiana Gov. Mike Pence: I proudly signed some anti-gay shit I don’t understand]

Some people just open their mouths and words come out over which they have no control. I guess Mike Pence is like that with fountain pens…

262 Snarknado!  Mar 30, 2015 9:34:14am

re: #258 William Barnett-Lewis

Hey Photographers!

Arkansas is up to even more stupid sh*t.

There is legislation in the works to require releases from ANY recognizable person in an image used online.

Please read my new page.

No more videos of misbehaving cops.

263 Targetpractice  Mar 30, 2015 9:36:58am

re: #260 Lidane

[Embedded content]

If you have to pass a law to “clarify” the law you just passed, then sorry, but you fucked up.

264 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 30, 2015 9:38:00am

re: #221 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

And if a bakery carries only mixed-couple cake toppers, you cannot force them to stock same-sex (or inter-species) figures.

a simple matter to supply plastic figurines representing the participants in your wedding:

265 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 9:39:36am

re: #264 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

a simple matter to supply plastic figurines representing the participants in your wedding:

Embedded Image

But again, you are denying that baker the God-given right to impose his moral views on your sinful lifestyle…

266 A Cranky One  Mar 30, 2015 9:45:18am

re: #253 Feline Fearless Leader

[Embedded content]

Only took Chat Noir five minutes or so of playing with an empty tissue box to pull this one off. (And of course since it had a plastic “liner” at the top he couldn’t get it off very easily.)

Is that called thinking inside the box?

267 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 9:46:46am
268 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 9:46:48am

Hey all!

Back home from NOLA. Man-o-Man, it is a different place in the early Spring. Much, much better than the Summer! A person can actually be outside.

It seems as though a little money has been spent since last summer. Less grunge, but there are still some building going feral in the Quarter.

Went to the WWII Museum complex and saw Tom Hanks supposed 4D movie.


I really didn’t understand the 4D part. Some props appeared and disappeared in normal theatre fashion, the seats shook when appropriate and the dropping of the atom bomb was rather dramatic. I guess it gave the young ‘uns a feel for what it was like.

Not a whole lot they can present in a one hour experience. There was a busload load of High Schoolers. When it was over, I didn’t get the impression they were affected.

I see Tammy Duckworth is running for the Senate. She’ll get it and we need here there.

How are you?

269 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 9:48:28am

That video of the Regina cop kicking the homeless man resulted in the cop being charged and convicted of assault.

A later court overturned the conviction.

If you want to get away with violence, become a cop.

270 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 9:49:59am

re: #268 FemNaziBitch

Hey all!

Back home from NOLA. Man-o-Man, it is a different place in the early Spring. Much, much better than the Summer! A person can actually be outside.

It seems as though a little money has been spent since last summer. Less grunge, but there are still some building going feral in the Quarter.

Went to the WWII Museum complex and saw Tom Hanks supposed 4D movie.

[Embedded content]

I really didn’t understand the 4D part. Some props appeared and disappeared in normal theatre fashion, the seats shook when appropriate and the dropping of the atom bomb was rather dramatic. I guess it gave the young ‘uns a feel for what it was like.

Not a whole lot they can present in a one hour experience. There was a busload load of High Schoolers. When it was over, I didn’t get the impression they were affected.

I see Tammy Duckworth is running for the Senate. She’ll get it and we need here there.

How are you?

It’s Monday.

I’m not sure any of us know how we are for sure.

271 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 9:55:12am

re: #270 b_sharp

It’s Monday.

I’m not sure any of us know how we are for sure.

To me, it seems the last outrage has to be superseded by the current outrage lately.

I hate to read the news anymore, but I do.

272 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 9:59:06am
273 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 9:59:09am

re: #252 A Cranky One

“I was marching in a parade in Schaumburg, Sunday, two days before the Democratic convention, when Tammy Duckworth was on a stage down in Charlotte — if you can look at the picture — picking out a dress for her speech Tuesday night,” Walsh said, holding up a photo.

If you can look at the picture….?

Walsh, West, Gohmert, Stockman, King. Former or present congressmen whose motto seems to be “Hey, I’m gonna try to just be the biggest dick anywhere, and see if anyone notices.”

274 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 9:59:57am
275 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:00:01am

No honor among thieves, cont.

Two federal agents have been charged with stealing money from the Silk Road

theverge.com

“Two Federal agents are facing charges of stealing money from the Silk Road, an online drug marketplace that was taken down by federal warrant more than a year ago. Hailing from the Drug Enforcement Agency and Secret Service respectively, Carl Mark Force and Shaun Bridges were both involved in undercover operations that built evidence against the Silk Road in the months leading up to its seizure in October of 2013. According to an affidavit, Force redirected bitcoin to a personal account during the investigation, and did not report or turn over the bitcoin once the investigation was completed. As a result, he faces charges of money laundering, wire fraud, and theft of government property. Bridges faces only laundering and fraud charges.” More

276 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 10:04:21am

re: #275 Justanotherhuman

BitCoin!!!!111

277 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 10:04:36am

This is not a surprise:

While it is true that a lot of Latinos are culturally conservative because they are often deeply religious, that doesn’t immediately translate to support for Ted Cruz because of his last name.

The GOP might figure this out eventually.

278 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 10:04:54am

re: #272 FemNaziBitch

I have my fingers crossed…
In all seriousness, male nurses are in demand for a couple of reasons. One is that nursing is actually a physically demanding occupation, requiring the moving of people who are sometimes heavy and sometimes unable to move themselves. Then there is also some sort of rooster effect that people have been hinting at but I don’t really understand.

279 allegro  Mar 30, 2015 10:05:30am

Thinking about the Indiana shit… my friend and I go out to dinner every Friday night and I have no doubt that some look at two older ladies out together and assume we’re a couple. (It’s happened here at the park where we both live and walk our dogs together most evenings - I find it hilarious but she is rather disturbed by it.)

I wonder how many restaurants in Indiana would turn us away?

280 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 10:05:33am

re: #271 Justanotherhuman

To me, it seems the last outrage has to be superseded by the current outrage lately.

I hate to read the news anymore, but I do.

One outrage smoothly blends into the next, fogging up my mind on Mondays.

281 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 10:07:42am

re: #279 allegro

Thinking about the Indiana shit… my friend and I go out to dinner every Friday night and I have no doubt that some look at two older ladies out together and assume we’re a couple. (It’s happened here at the park where we both live and walk our dogs together most evenings - I find it hilarious but she is rather disturbed by it.)

I wonder how many restaurants in Indiana would turn us away?

Give her a pat on the bum next time you’re in the park.

282 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:08:26am

re: #272 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Not surprising; my sister taught nursing at U/Buffalo and her student husband wound up not only being promoted faster than her but making more money too, once she returned to practice. The last I heard, he was head of ER nursing at the hospital they both worked at, a fast promotion. They wound up divorced and she’s retired now, of course. Old stuff, but those kinds of ideas die hard.

People still assume a man is better at a job than woman even when they’re not, even women sometimes think that—my sister did.

283 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:09:13am

As Vernor Vinge and Poul Anderson are the only other winners of the Prometheus Award, F. Paul Wilson is in esteemed company.

How come I’ve never heard of him. Or this award?

284 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:10:58am
285 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 10:11:22am

Wow, RWNJs are stupid assholes. This wonderful comment was just posted about the anonymous restaurant owner who claims that he openly discriminates against gays and that he’ll keep doing so:

I have a question for the female host..
Have you eVER given a blow job??
Have you ever declined to blow any guy.
If so, and we both know you have, you discriminated against the guy you refused to blow. Tsk tsk. The difference between you and me is I believe you have the right to discriminate, as any one would. You on the other hand don’t think others have the right to discriminate, but you do.
Now your on a call in show where all of you give opinions daily. You all were so wanting to get the name of the restaurant. Why??? My guess id to inflict as much shame and damage to the caller. In that vein to you give out your home address each day?? People who don’t agree with your opinion might want to know where you live for the reasons that you wanted the name of the restaurant.
On the other hand this might all be a hoax with you arranging a militant LGBT type to make a phony call..

A lot of RWNJs are making this kind of idiotic argument. WTF.

286 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 30, 2015 10:11:50am

re: #284 Justanotherhuman

Batteries for homes.

287 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:11:51am

re: #278 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I have my fingers crossed…
In all seriousness, male nurses are in demand for a couple of reasons. One is that nursing is actually a physically demanding occupation, requiring the moving of people who are sometimes heavy and sometimes unable to move themselves. Then there is also some sort of rooster effect that people have been hinting at but I don’t really understand.

AS with everthing else. There are good nurses and bad nurses. One’s gender has little to do with it.

288 Zamb  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:00am

re: #285 Lidane

So serving gay people food is the same as rape? Is that what we are getting at?

289 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:06am

I wonder of gay and lesbian nurses earn more than their cisgendered counterparts?

Did I get that right? The pronouns and such are confusing me.

290 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:32am

re: #285 Lidane

Wow, RWNJs are stupid assholes. This wonderful comment was just posted about the anonymous restaurant owner who claims that he openly discriminates against gays and that he’ll keep doing so:

RWNJ: Trying to make discrimination common and respectable again.

291 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:42am

re: #274 Lidane

People over 65 support vaccinations and businesses being able to refuse service. Guess they’ve seen both work

Well all righty then! If it means so much to some business owners to be able to refuse service (I’m lookin’ at you, Indiana.) then only fair thing to do is issue permits for them to do so. Considering that public infrastructure is what brings the business to them they need to pay something for the privilege of excluding some of those who paid for that infrastructure. I’d say that 10% of their monthly gross, payable monthly for the permit, would be a nice start.

292 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:51am

re: #288 Zamb

So serving gay people food is the same as rape? Is that what we are getting at?

OBVIOUSLY>

MRA logic.

293 Frenchy  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:52am

re: #285 Lidane

Oh dear god. I just can’t even.

294 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:13:56am
295 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 10:14:04am

re: #288 Zamb

So serving gay people food is the same as rape? Is that what we are getting at?

These are very classy, intelligent folk we’re dealing with….

/

296 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Mar 30, 2015 10:15:23am

re: #285 Lidane

So it’s OK to discriminate but it’s not OK to Tread On Them? If they want to discriminate, shouldn’t we be allowed to Tread On Them?

///

297 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:15:46am

re: #289 FemNaziBitch

I wonder of gay and lesbian nurses earn more than their cisgendered counterparts?

Did I get that right? The pronouns and such are confusing me.

Cis and trans only apply to gender identity. Some one can be gay and still be cisgendered.

298 allegro  Mar 30, 2015 10:16:19am

re: #281 b_sharp

Give her a pat on the bum next time you’re in the park.

Heh. We were at a restaurant one evening when I got silly and went all cougar on our adorable waiter. My friend said that she was glad I did that so they wouldn’t think we were lesbians. After dinner, as soon as we got into her car to leave, she proceeded to take off her bra from under her t-shirt. (She does that a lot - she hates wearing a bra.) I commented that if she didn’t want people to think we’re gay, she might wait to start taking off her underwear when we weren’t sitting right under a security camera that’s pointing directly into the car windshield.

299 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:18:15am

I was very happy to see the Chinese Foot (and body) massagers on every block in NOLA. After riding to and from the airports, the flight, hotel beds and walking the Quarter —they were WONDERFUL!

30 minutes and I was good to go.

300 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 10:18:45am

re: #288 Zamb

So serving gay people food is the same as rape? Is that what we are getting at?

I have seen different versions of the following arguments today:

—Bars refusing to serve alcoholics is discrimination
—An LGBT person demanding a Jewish baker make a cake on the Sabbath is being discriminatory
—A woman choosing to marry one man over another, or giving a blowjob to one guy and not another is being discriminatory

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I also love the dipshits who claim their Freedom of Association is being violated because they can’t openly discriminate against gays in their business and they’re forced to deal with them. You know, because that’s what the Freedom of Association is about.

301 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:19:15am

re: #297 Kragar

Cis and trans only apply to gender identity. Some one can be gay and still be cisgendered.

<:[ I’ll never understand.

I’ll just revert to “You, there, yes you!”

302 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:21:01am

re: #301 FemNaziBitch

<:[ I’ll never understand.

I’ll just revert to “You, there, yes you!”

The only online dictionary that defines “cisgender” is the Oxford…

oxforddictionaries.com

303 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:21:30am

re: #300 Lidane

So these blowjobs, are they a part of a licensed business providing blowjobs for the community?

304 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:22:48am

re: #303 Kragar

So these blowjobs, are they a part of a licensed business providing blowjobs for the community?

Does “blow me” really have to be taken literally?

305 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 10:23:09am

re: #285 Lidane

Wow, RWNJs are stupid assholes. This wonderful comment was just posted about the anonymous restaurant owner who claims that he openly discriminates against gays and that he’ll keep doing so:

A lot of RWNJs are making this kind of idiotic argument. WTF.

So, some restaurants give blow jobs? Do you have to tip?

306 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:23:20am

Google says ‘significant subset’ of Gmail users are experiencing error messages - @CNBC
read more on cnbc.com

307 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:24:02am
308 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:26:16am

re: #303 Kragar

So these blowjobs, are they a part of a licensed business providing blowjobs for the community?

Don’t you understand. Sex of any sort on-demand is a right. Women seem to have no problem getting it when they want it—men are very obliging that way. It’s Women who discriminate in this arena. Men have to cajole, beg or pay. Women don’t have to buy dinner, or put up with men whining and stupid conversation for a a few hours to get off.

It’s totally unfair,

THERE SHOULD BE A LAW!!!!

/

309 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 10:26:22am

re: #277 Lidane

This is not a surprise:

While it is true that a lot of Latinos are culturally conservative because they are often deeply religious, that doesn’t immediately translate to support for Ted Cruz because of his last name.

The GOP might figure this out eventually.

Latinos also have a strong sense of community, which is why they support good schools and government programs to help people advance socially and economically, which is something the GOP refuses to consider.

310 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 10:26:23am

re: #307 FemNaziBitch

SQUEEEEEE!

Looks a lot like a bison baby.

311 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 10:26:37am

re: #303 Kragar

So these blowjobs, are they a part of a licensed business providing blowjobs for the community?

Of course not. They’re just being randomly given out. But if a woman gives one to this guy and not that guy, she’s a bigoted, discriminatory whore, don’tcha know.

IT’S TOTALLY THE SAME AS REFUSING TO SERVE TEH GAYSTAPO!

/////

312 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 10:28:22am

My Religion, The Church of Dr. Matt, states:

Matt 1:1: Anyone left of center is allowed to urinate on anyone right of center.

I’m sure RWNJs will not oppose my deeply held religious beliefs.

313 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:29:54am

re: #301 FemNaziBitch

<:[ I’ll never understand.

I’ll just revert to “You, there, yes you!”

The vast majority of people choose to identify as their birth sex, but can be straight, gay, or bi.

If a person chooses to alter their assigned birth gender to confirm with their identity, they’re trans, but also can still be straight, gay, or bi.

314 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 10:31:01am
315 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:31:02am
316 Higgs Boson's Mate  Mar 30, 2015 10:31:11am

re: #313 Kragar

The vast majority of people choose to identify as their birth sex, but can be straight, gay, or bi.

If a person chooses to alter their assigned birth gender to confirm with their identity, they’re trans, but also can still be straight, gay, or bi.

This is starting to sound a lot like someone’s latte order at Starbuck’s.

317 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 10:33:46am

re: #309 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Latinos also have a strong sense of community, which is why they support good schools and government programs to help people advance socially and economically, which is something the GOP refuses to consider.

Precisely. Doesn’t surprise me at all that Cruz is struggling to make inroads with the Hispanic community. Of course, his supporters probably see that as a virtue not a flaw.

318 makeitstop  Mar 30, 2015 10:37:13am

re: #315 Kragar

[Embedded content]

I thought Oregon already did that?

319 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:38:35am

Didn’t say what the note contained, however.

Note found in apartment of Missouri auditor’s spokesman who apparently killed himself 1 month after boss’ suicide - @stltoday
read more on stltoday.com

320 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:38:36am
321 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 10:38:53am

re: #318 makeitstop

Maybe not officially. I know San Fran announced a boycott, but that was for city business only.

322 allegro  Mar 30, 2015 10:39:17am

re: #318 makeitstop

I thought Oregon already did that?

I heard that the Seattle mayor did. I wondered how many Seattle employees made taxpayer expense trips to Indiana.

323 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:39:25am

re: #316 Higgs Boson’s Mate

This is starting to sound a lot like someone’s latte order at Starbuck’s.

Venti No-Whip Mocha

324 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 10:40:37am

So two guys in drag try to crash through the NSA HQ barrier and it ‘snot terrorism. I can’t wait to hear what it is.

325 makeitstop  Mar 30, 2015 10:41:45am

re: #321 Kragar

Maybe not officially. I know San Fran announced a boycott, but that was for city business only.

That may have been what I heard. I knew it was one of those western places out there in the west.

326 allegro  Mar 30, 2015 10:42:05am

re: #324 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

So two guys in drag try to crash through the NSA HQ barrier and it ‘snot terrorism. I can’t wait to hear what it is.

Must be white guys.

327 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 30, 2015 10:42:35am

re: #277 Lidane

This is not a surprise:

[Embedded content]

While it is true that a lot of Latinos are culturally conservative because they are often deeply religious, that doesn’t immediately translate to support for Ted Cruz because of his last name.

The GOP might figure this out eventually.

in regard to his latino heritage, ted is sleeping with the enemy

328 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:43:14am

Well, that Ford Escape didn’t work out for them.

Men dressed as women tried to force way onto Army base

usatoday.com

329 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 10:43:48am
330 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:44:27am

Indiana is batting zero these days.

Not that Indiana was ever known for baseball.

331 Tigger2  Mar 30, 2015 10:45:56am

re: #329 Dr. Matt

[Embedded content]

lol

332 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:46:17am

TWO BODIES RECOVERED FROM SITE OF EAST VILLAGE EXPLOSION; 1 ID’D

7online.com

333 b.d.  Mar 30, 2015 10:46:46am

If evolution is real then how come there is still Indiana?

//

334 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:48:08am
335 Zamb  Mar 30, 2015 10:50:51am

re: #334 FemNaziBitch

Perhaps she means outrage porn? Sitting around all day listening to Limbaugh can’t be good.

336 Tigger2  Mar 30, 2015 10:51:04am

re: #333 b.d.

If evolution is real then how come there is still Indiana?

//

It does seem like part of our state is full of missing links sometimes.

337 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:52:07am

John Fugelsang on Indiana.


338 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 10:52:36am

re: #334 FemNaziBitch

I’m in Med/Surg class right now. I click back and forth between my lecture notes and other stuff, but a lot of my classmates don’t bother. Right now I can see about half of the laptops are not on the lecture. Two girls are looking at Hunky Heroes in Uniform, another couple are on Facebook, on on Amazon, some Youtube and a couple of other pages I don’t recognize.

339 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 10:52:42am

re: #334 FemNaziBitch

I wish I could watch porn all day at work. Unfortunately, IT has a stiff no wank policy.

340 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:52:53am

re: #336 Tigger2

It does seem like part of our state is full of missing links sometimes.

The state flower is Polyester.

341 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 10:52:53am

Meh.

342 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 10:54:02am

re: #284 Justanotherhuman

They built a death ray?!?
// :)

343 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:54:39am
344 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 10:55:09am

re: #291 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Well all righty then! If it means so much to some business owners to be able to refuse service (I’m lookin’ at you, Indiana.) then only fair thing to do is issue permits for them to do so. Considering that public infrastructure is what brings the business to them they need to pay something for the privilege of excluding some of those who paid for that infrastructure. I’d say that 10% of their monthly gross, payable monthly for the permit, would be a nice start.

Implementing a jackass tithe. Interesting concept.

345 b.d.  Mar 30, 2015 10:55:28am

re: #334 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Insulting and berating the working man while telling him that he is not working hard enough sounds like a sure fire win campaign strategy to me.

//

346 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 10:55:30am
347 Zamb  Mar 30, 2015 10:56:54am

re: #345 b.d.

Insulting and berating the working man while telling him that he is not working hard enough sounds like a sure fire win campaign strategy to me.

//

Worked well for them with black people.

348 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 10:57:35am

re: #343 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Hahahha. Brilliant.

349 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 10:57:38am

re: #322 allegro

I heard that the Seattle mayor did. I wondered how many Seattle employees made taxpayer expense trips to Indiana.

Indianapolis hosts a lot of conventions.

350 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Mar 30, 2015 10:57:41am

re: #345 b.d.

Insulting and berating the working man while telling him that he is not working hard enough sounds like a sure fire win campaign strategy to me.

//

She is talking about federal workers, who do not count in her Free Market view of things

351 SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Mar 30, 2015 10:57:46am

re: #346 FemNaziBitch

Sometimes the “offending” car got there first and others parked haphazardly.

352 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 10:59:49am

re: #334 FemNaziBitch

GOP’s Carly Fiorina: Economy is suffering because workers are ‘watching porn all day.

There was that one guy at the EPA. Given that one-person rule, she should be concerned about CEOs destroying all the companies.

353 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 11:00:07am

re: #314 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

ODS in action again, folks

Reuters Poll: Republicans See Obama as More Imminent Threat than Putin

Ever watch how a crowd of people self motivate? It’s like a feedback system pushing them to a specific one mind solution. They all internalize the same shit & regurgitate it ever more vehemently until they move like a flock of birds, completely in step with one another. Right or wrong doesn’t matter, only the choreography.

That’s the RW when it comes to ODS.

354 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 11:01:56am

re: #324 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

So two guys in drag try to crash through the NSA HQ barrier and it ‘snot terrorism. I can’t wait to hear what it is.

I had no idea Rupaul was so angry.

355 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:02:13am
356 b_sharp  Mar 30, 2015 11:03:12am

re: #339 Dr. Matt

I wish I could watch porn all day at work. Unfortunately, IT has a stiff no wank policy.

It’s all about the puns.

357 Kragar  Mar 30, 2015 11:03:21am
358 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:04:22am

re: #343 FemNaziBitch

Would that be baby chickens?

I really despise the word “chicks” for women and any other “diminutive” used to describe women of any age which trivializes us.

359 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:05:42am
360 ObserverArt  Mar 30, 2015 11:06:08am

Hey all.

Well, it appears the same-sex service issue is breaking out here in the Columbus metro area.

A Bexley Ohio female couple called a local videographer to record their ceremony and the response was: ” Unfortunately at this time I do not offer services for same-sex weddings but thank you for your inquiry! Peace..”

So, apparently the area’s supporters and sympathizers are going to hold a rally at the City Council meeting tomorrow.

This should be an epic fight. Bexley runs from super-rich to upper middle class and for a long time was considered a Jewish community mostly, but that has been changing over the years. It is also land-locked by Columbus which surrounds it on all sides.

I also understand it is now becoming a community loved by well-to-do gays. So, when the two sides meet up, there might be a surprise or two when the city council realizes some of the citizen supporters of the gay couple are tax-paying residents. Very well to do supporters.

Columbus has a large, wealthy and organized gay community. Back in the late 70s and early 80s Columbus was considered the third largest gay community in America outside San Fran and New York.

Rally Planned After Same-Sex Couple Allegedly Denied Service

-cut-

It has caused people in Ohio and in other states to reach out and create pages in support of and against Next Door Stories.

People who support Moffatt and Knicely are planning to hold a rally outside the Bexley City Council meeting Tuesday night.

-cut-

I might be able to hear the rally. Bexley is about a mile and a half up Main Street from where I live. I also have a buddy that was our bass player until he recently hung up the strings who lives in Bexley. This should be fun. I highly doubt anyone is going to gain any ground and start any “protection” laws around here…but we shall see.

361 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:06:14am

re: #358 Justanotherhuman

Would that be baby chickens?

I really despise the word “chicks” for women and any other “diminutive” used to describe women of any age which trivializes us.

I hate the word “panties” for the same reason. Also it sounds weird.

362 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 11:06:32am

re: #339 Dr. Matt

I wish I could watch porn all day at work. Unfortunately, IT has a stiff no wank policy.

At the job I had before this one, you could get written up or even fired if you were caught with your phone on your desk. They also had severe Net Nanny firewalls that blocked everything that could be a distraction. Hilariously, they also blocked every career and job search website except LinkedIn.

This new job, I’m trusted to get my work done so there aren’t any filters. I still wouldn’t watch porn at work OR at home on my work laptop. I don’t need the IT guys learning more about me than I want them to know. :-P

363 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:06:59am

re: #358 Justanotherhuman

Would that be baby chickens?

I really despise the word “chicks” for women and any other “diminutive” used to describe women of any age which trivializes us.

Still Cool Grandma!

364 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:07:02am

re: #360 ObserverArt

No justice, no peace. I mean, cheeeeez.

365 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 11:07:51am

After a story is published, a minimum wage worker loses her job

“Shanna Tippen was another hourly worker at the bottom of the nation’s economy, looking forward to a 25 cent bump in the Arkansas minimum wage that would make it easier for her to buy diapers for her grandson. When I wrote about her in the Post last month, she said the minimum wage hike would bring her a bit of financial relief, but it wouldn’t lift her above the poverty line.

She called me the other day to say she didn’t get to enjoy the 25-cent hike for long. After the story came out, she says she was fired from her job for talking to the Post.”

366 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:08:19am

re: #363 FemNaziBitch

Yes, she has the right idea, the wrong word. : )

367 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:08:58am
368 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 30, 2015 11:09:00am

Indiana Bill Leads To Rise Of Gay-Only Business Sector

christians locked out of decent pastry decoration, wedding planning, and clothing design

369 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 11:10:21am

Arkansas of course is a “right to work” state.

370 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:10:44am

re: #365 jaunte

After a story is published, a minimum wage worker loses her job

Dicks. But remember folks it’s the unions that are the bad guys not the corporate douchebags who want any excuse to screw someone over. Just pathetic.

371 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 30, 2015 11:10:58am

re: #360 ObserverArt

A Bexley Ohio female couple called a local videographer to record their ceremony and the response was: ” Unfortunately at this time I do not offer services for same-sex weddings but thank you for your inquiry! Peace..”

how soon before jewish and inter ethnic couples begin to receive the same notices?

372 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 11:11:37am

re: #370 HappyWarrior

For a quarter an hour. That’s really pathetic.

373 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:11:41am

Good move, AFSCME!

Public workers’ union AFSCME moves conference location as ‘direct result’ of Indiana’s controversial Religious Freedom law
end of alert

374 makeitstop  Mar 30, 2015 11:12:15am

Sununu: Obama is making crazy people act crazy!

Former New Hampshire Gov. John Sununu (R) said on Monday during an appearance on Fox News that President Obama is “inciting” birther conspiracy theorists by planning a trip to Kenya this summer.

“I think his trip back to Kenya is going to create a lot of chatter and commentary amongst some of the hard right, who still don’t see him as having been born in the U.S.,” Sununu said on the show “America’s Newsroom.”

“I personally think he’s just inciting some chatter on an issue that should have been a dead issue a long time ago,” he said.

Of course, the conduct of these deranged sons of bitches is Obama’s fault. Spit.

375 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:13:05am
376 #FergusonFireside  Mar 30, 2015 11:13:12am

I just got a huge raise at work.

Wow.

Wheeeee!

377 RealityBasedSteve  Mar 30, 2015 11:13:29am

re: #374 makeitstop

Sununu: Obama is making crazy people act crazy!

Of course, the conduct of these deranged sons of bitches is Obama’s fault. Spit.

LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!

RBS

378 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:13:35am

re: #374 makeitstop

Sununu: Obama is making crazy people act crazy!

Of course, the conduct of these deranged sons of bitches is Obama’s fault. Spit.

Uh no Sununu, the birthers do that just by being themselves. But thanks for playing concern troll.

379 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:14:40am

re: #372 jaunte

For a quarter an hour. That’s really pathetic.

Seriously. Hopefully this lady gets back on her feet and finds a better paying job. What a dickhead. Really I worry about business and local government abuse of power far more than I do federal government abuse of power.

380 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 11:15:26am

re: #374 makeitstop

Sununu: Obama is making crazy people act crazy!

Of course, the conduct of these deranged sons of bitches is Obama’s fault. Spit.

Someone needs to inform Sununu that we are now enjoying President “No More Fucks To Give” Obama.

381 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:15:56am

re: #374 makeitstop

See:

re: #168 Justanotherhuman

Some apparently aren’t awake just yet, though. : )

382 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:16:12am

As always, succinct and complete.

‘nuff said.

383 #FergusonFireside  Mar 30, 2015 11:17:01am

re: #372 jaunte

For a quarter an hour. That’s really pathetic.

Wow, how this was juxtaposed with my post. :(

384 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:17:09am

re: #382 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

As always, succinct and complete.

‘nuff said.

He’s the first president Democratic or Republican that has gotten this.

385 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:17:10am

Now, they are on the Pedestal with Women?

386 Tigger2  Mar 30, 2015 11:17:56am

re: #380 Backwoods_Sleuth

Someone needs to inform Sununu that we are now enjoying President “No More Fucks To Give” Obama.

Yep I think Obama is purposely trolling the wingnuts. And I love it.

387 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:11am
388 FemNaziBitch  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:17am

bbl

389 Charles Johnson  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:24am
390 Dr. Matt  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:28am

re: #374 makeitstop

Sununu: Obama is making crazy people act crazy!

Of course, the conduct of these deranged sons of bitches is Obama’s fault. Spit.

In other news, the President was seen taking a deep breath and RWNJs accuse him of taking more than his share.

391 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:30am

re: #379 HappyWarrior

Seriously. Hopefully this lady gets back on her feet and finds a better paying job. What a dickhead. Really I worry about business and local government abuse of power far more than I do federal government abuse of power.

And the thing is, she didn’t say one single negative thing about her job or her employer. She only talked about the difficulty of trying to survive on minimum wage and how much of a difference 25 cents an hour would make.

392 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:18:33am

re: #385 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Now, they are on the Pedestal with Women?

The fuck.

393 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 11:19:21am

The CEO of the Wyndham group, owner of Days Inn:


forbes.com
394 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:20:45am

re: #391 Backwoods_Sleuth

And the thing is, she didn’t say one single negative thing about her job or her employer. She only talked about the difficulty of trying to survive on minimum wage and how much of a difference 25 cents an hour would make.

I know, that was the most insane part to me. She didn’t badmouth her employer or job even though she would have been well within her rights to but instead expressed gratitude that she could help make her granddaughter’s life easier. I bet the boss that fired her considers himself a “pro family conservative” too.

395 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:21:42am

re: #393 jaunte

The CEO of the Wyndham group, owner of Days Inn:

Embedded Image

forbes.com

His bonus is more than many people will make in a lifetime and people wonder why I don’t see capitalism as the gospel.

396 Lidane  Mar 30, 2015 11:21:44am

*facepalm*

397 HappyWarrior  Mar 30, 2015 11:22:13am

re: #389 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

NRO knows a thing or two about bigotry.

398 jaunte  Mar 30, 2015 11:22:37am

re: #395 HappyWarrior

His bonus is more than many people will make in a lifetime and people wonder why I don’t see capitalism as the gospel.

He’s probably not worried about keeping his granddaughter diapered.

399 Justanotherhuman  Mar 30, 2015 11:26:16am

re: #395 HappyWarrior

It would take someone 140 yrs, making $25K/yr (probably about what the average Days Inn worker makes if they’re lucky) to earn that $3.49M.

400 BeachDem  Mar 30, 2015 11:27:28am

re: #360 ObserverArt

Hey all.

Columbus has a large, wealthy and organized gay community. Back in the late 70s and early 80s Columbus was considered the third largest gay community in America outside San Fran and New York.

I remember Larry’s, a gay bar on High Street near OSU back in the 60s. We used to go there on Monday nights when our usual bar of choice was closed—always welcomed with open arms. (Yes, I was a definite barfly back then.)

401 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 30, 2015 11:29:07am

Just ask any of these bigot fools to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

And watch their face when they say:

one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all

402 ObserverArt  Mar 30, 2015 11:35:36am

re: #385 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Now, they are on the Pedestal with Women?

I have a feeling the State of Ohio is going to be the next big fight over gay rights.

Governor John Kasich and his Ohio Senate and State Rep gang have been sneaking questionable legislation in other bills and pissing people off. It all started with abortion laws and that pissed the state’s female population off.

Then he tried to do a Scott Walker and dump state employee union collective bargaining underhanded claiming his 2010 election was a mandate. That pissed off a bunch of people and all that got clobbered 62 to 38 percent in the ‘11 elections by popular vote.

Ohio is still holding onto its own “defense of marriage” act and with all the heat building on Indiana, I am thinking the fight will be next in Ohio.

Kasich will soon be deciding if he too should be a GOP presidential candidate. He was in both Iowa and New Hampshire last week looking at the landscape. I don’t think he will want this fight, but with the blockheads in the legislature being driven by the evangelicals and the people in the rural areas will want this to be fought now.

Kasich already pissed off his backers last year when he had a ‘come-to-Jesus” moment and expanded Ohio’s Medicaid program citing it was what a good Christian would do. If he goes “gay” too, he won’t be able to get his presidential run going as it will be stalled right here in state.

Future for John Kascih…KABOOM!

403 BeachDem  Mar 30, 2015 11:41:55am

re: #402 ObserverArt

Isn’t there a new “heartbeat” bill wending its way through the Ohio legislature now? I know the last few have been defeated or pulled (one of my friends testified a bunch of times against them.)

Kasich is a mean-spirited jackass. If my memory was better, I could share stories about him going back to his college days, but I’ve forgotten some of the details, so will refrain.

404 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 30, 2015 11:44:52am

re: #401 GlutenFreeJesus

Just ask any of these bigot fools to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

And watch their face when they say:

Their liberty to be bigots and “God’s” justice. :p

405 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 11:46:09am

re: #367 Justanotherhuman

She ought to find a lawyer…

Too late to find a union organizer.

406 ObserverArt  Mar 30, 2015 11:48:18am

re: #400 BeachDem

I remember Larry’s, a gay bar on High Street near OSU back in the 60s. We used to go there on Monday nights when our usual bar of choice was closed—always welcomed with open arms. (Yes, I was a definite barfly back then.)

Heh! Larry’s!!! My old college roommate and ex-business partner used to tend bar there.

Fun fact. Larry’s was never really a gay bar. The owner, Larry wanted the ‘art’ crowd from Ohio State, The Columbus College of Art and Design and other local colleges arty types as customers and did not want the typical Ohio State football fan and frat rat types. So, he put out the rumors that it was a gay bar.

It worked!

It was a nice quiet bar with a lot of art types sitting around debating, playing chess, discussing art projects and shows, literature and all kinds of ‘gay’ things. All while 50,000 students hovered just outside the door too scared to go in!

407 Decatur Deb  Mar 30, 2015 11:53:58am

re: #406 ObserverArt

Heh! Larry’s!!! My old college roommate and ex-business partner used to tend bar there.

Fun fact. Larry’s was never really a gay bar. The owner, Larry wanted the ‘art’ crowd from Ohio State, The Columbus College of Art and Design and other local colleges arty types as customers and did not want the typical Ohio State football fan and frat rat types. So, he put out the rumors that it was a gay bar.

It worked!

It was a nice quiet bar with a lot of art types sitting around debating, playing chess, discussing art projects and shows, literature and all kinds of ‘gay’ things. All while 50,000 students hovered just outside the door too scared to go in!

In the 60s, Ft Knox soldiers hung at a Louisville bar named The Gay Nineties. It wasn’t gay, it was tough—had a one-armed stripper.

(In reality, I suspect the ‘gay’ usage wasn’t widespread then.)

Found a reference:

cinematreasures.org

408 BeachDem  Mar 30, 2015 12:15:52pm

re: #406 ObserverArt

Heh! Larry’s!!! My old college roommate and ex-business partner used to tend bar there.

Fun fact. Larry’s was never really a gay bar. The owner, Larry wanted the ‘art’ crowd from Ohio State, The Columbus College of Art and Design and other local colleges arty types as customers and did not want the typical Ohio State football fan and frat rat types. So, he put out the rumors that it was a gay bar.

It worked!

It was a nice quiet bar with a lot of art types sitting around debating, playing chess, discussing art projects and shows, literature and all kinds of ‘gay’ things. All while 50,000 students hovered just outside the door too scared to go in!

Funny little anecdote—I used to go there most often with the black, straight lead singer of the house band at my usual bar (his original band was Four Knights and a Dave, later The Apocalypse—Flippo the Clown’s stepson was the bass player—ah memories.)

Dave had quite a following, and when word got out that he went to Larry’s, a few people started spreading a story that he was gay—which only increased his devoted fan base, which included every woman who ever came in contact with him, even more.

409 gwangung  Mar 30, 2015 12:23:41pm

re: #394 HappyWarrior

I know, that was the most insane part to me. She didn’t badmouth her employer or job even though she would have been well within her rights to but instead expressed gratitude that she could help make her granddaughter’s life easier. I bet the boss that fired her considers himself a “pro family conservative” too.

On top of that, her boss was the one who suggested she talk to the reporter.

410 Nyet  Mar 30, 2015 1:10:02pm

re: #316 Higgs Boson’s Mate

This is starting to sound a lot like someone’s latte order at Starbuck’s.

Why should life be simpler than a latte order at Starbucks? ;)


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