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1 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 9:20:52pm

Finally got around to watching the first episode of PBS’s First Peoples.

I cringed a bit at times. I guess it is what it is, and how documentaries have to be to attract a larger audience, but I found it just too melodramatic. And there is a great deal of artistic interpretation, more than hard science.

Worse, I think the narration was written by someone who really doesn’t care about the meticulousness of science. Details matter, meanings matter.

The final conclusion the narrator gives us, that there was one migration for all the people known as “Native Americans”, is a wrong conclusion to come to. Just because Kennewick man matches the Native Americans of North America more closely than any other population group around today in no way proves there was only one group of people migrating across the Bearing region.

Previous studies, in DNA, have shown that there exists enough differences in mitochondrial DNA and the Y chromosome in Native Americans today to allow for, maybe even call for, different groups from north east Asia. And there are plenty of archeological discoveries to indicate that multiple routes were possible.

As the scientist who did the Kennewick man’s DNA tried to explain to the elders, Kennewick man matches most (a relative term) closely the current groups we call Native Americans, but that does not tell us what (who) else are in the ancestral background of these groups today.

This matching does not at all mean that a different group, the so called Clovis group, didn’t come centuries later than one or more earlier groups.

First Peoples suffers from trying to make a very complex subject too simple. The English used in the narration implies that the target audience is juvenile. Fine, it is good to get young people interested in these topics.

But the money shot at the end with the supposedly big conclusion is misleading.

This is the thing learnt in science - knowing exactly what is a hypothesis, how it is supported or disproven, and very importantly how not to make wrong conclusions, often by drawing too broad of conclusions.

The inability of TV shows that advertise themselves as science documentaries to communicate that I find troubling. I don’t expect the makers of History Channel’s UFO fantasies to really care about science. I do expect headline PBS series advertising themselves as science expositions to care about science.

2 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Jul 3, 2015 9:29:45pm

re: #1 freetoken

They didn’t try to suggest that the Athabascan speakers weren’t a much later migration, submerging existing groups in Alaska and Western Canada, surely? I mean, that would be completely idiotic.

3 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 9:36:36pm

re: #1 freetoken

Biology, genetics, paleontology and anthropology are all complex subjects, and the latter two are open to interpretation, since we’re often dealing with evidence that’s fragmentary and ancient. Trying to convey all the nuances in one or two hours of airtime is extremely difficult, especially if you assume your viewers have only had a year of high school biology as background.

To do a decent job of exploring just the migration from Asia to the Americas would require more than one episode. Hell, it could be an entire series. But the aim of this series, I assume, is the same as a survey course in lit or history: paint with broad strokes to convey the overall picture of the subject at hand. Survey courses inevitably omit important details. Which ones get omitted is up to the creators of the textbook or TV series, and sometimes their choices are not the ones preferred by the experts.

That said, it behooves the show’s creators not to misinform viewers. I’ve read enough about human and hominid migration to know that the experts suspect there were at least two migrations into the Americas, just from the genetic evidence alone. If this episode implies there was only one, then that’s just plain wrong. It’s not over-simplification; it’s misinformation.

I haven’t watched this series yet. But I’ll watch the Americas ep tonight and see what’s what.

4 austin_blue  Jul 3, 2015 9:40:49pm

re: #1 freetoken

Finally got around to watching the first episode of PBS’s First Peoples.

I cringed a bit at times. I guess it is what it is, and how documentaries have to be to attract a larger audience, but I found it just too melodramatic. And there is a great deal of artistic interpretation, more than hard science.

Worse, I think the narration was written by someone who really doesn’t care about the meticulousness of science. Details matter, meanings matter.

The final conclusion the narrator gives us, that there was one migration for all the people known as “Native Americans”, is a wrong conclusion to come to. Just because Kennewick man matches the Native Americans of North America more closely than any other population group around today in no way proves there was only one group of people migrating across the Bearing region.

Previous studies, in DNA, have shown that there exists enough differences in mitochondrial DNA and the Y chromosome in Native Americans today to allow for, maybe even call for, different groups from north east Asia. And there are plenty of archeological discoveries to indicate that multiple routes were possible.

As the scientist who did the Kennewick man’s DNA tried to explain to the elders, Kennewick man matches most (a relative term) closely the current groups we call Native Americans, but that does not tell us what (who) else are in the ancestral background of these groups today.

This matching does not at all mean that a different group, the so called Clovis group, didn’t come centuries later than one or more earlier groups.

First Peoples suffers from trying to make a very complex subject too simple. The English used in the narration implies that the target audience is juvenile. Fine, it is good to get young people interested in these topics.

But the money shot at the end with the supposedly big conclusion is misleading.

This is the thing learnt in science - knowing exactly what is a hypothesis, how it is supported or disproven, and very importantly how not to make wrong conclusions, often by drawing too broad of conclusions.

The inability of TV shows that advertise themselves as science documentaries to communicate that I find troubling. I don’t expect the makers of History Channel’s UFO fantasies to really care about science. I do expect headline PBS series advertising themselves as science expositions to care about science.

Agreed. The language groups alone indicate several diaspora groups, not to mention the South American group that may have been here sixteen thousand years ago, which is *really* pushing back the timeline.

athenapub.com

5 Ace-o-aces  Jul 3, 2015 9:56:30pm

Hey, anybody else notice that the granting of marriage licenses suddenly has gone from the foundation of society, to oppressive government intrusiveness? Wonder why that is?

6 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 10:14:01pm

Poking around Wikipedia just now, I came across this entry, about a scientific work that preceded On the Origin of Species and undoubtedly influenced Darwin and others. I had never heard of it till today.
en.wikipedia.org

Vestiges was written by an amateur scientist and tried to explain the evolution of everything from simpler forms to more complex forms using only natural events. In other words, if God was in the equation, He/She/It only acted within natural laws. That suggestion didn’t go over well in some religious quarters. Anticipating that, the author published anonymously to avoid damaging his and his brother’s publishing business.

Religious obstinacy has not really changed much in the last 170 years.

7 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Jul 3, 2015 10:22:10pm

Zoonomia; or the Laws of Organic Life, by his grandfather Erasmus Darwin, also influenced Charles.

8 gwangung  Jul 3, 2015 10:26:59pm

re: #5 Ace-o-aces

[Embedded content]

Hey, anybody else notice that the granting of marriage licenses suddenly has gone from the foundation of society, to oppressive government intrusiveness? Wonder why that is?

Yeah, they’re kinda confused on how this arose….

9 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 10:38:24pm

re: #7 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

Zoonomia; or the Laws of Organic Life, by his grandfather Erasmus Darwin, also influenced Charles.

Creationists and IDists seem to assume Darwin created his ideas in a vacuum, given their tendency to demonize him. In fact, parts of his theory of evolution had been kicking around for decades. He was the first to suggest a mechanism and a reason for traits to be inherited generation by generation..

10 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:43:25pm

re: #3 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Well, it’s one thing to paint in broad strokes, and quite another to substitute finger painting for Flemish masters like Rubens.

Here again is my beef: not the simplicity, but the presenting of science wrongly. The process that is described by the melodramatic music and narration betrays the real meanings of the data and what is behind the scientific process.

And even more importantly is the poor handling of words like “theory”, “proof”, and so forth. Add to that loaded words like “creation” and I think the narration really lets down the real meat of the project. The scientists interviewed themselves try to do a good job, but their explanations take up only a small portion of the hour long shows.

As much as I like the idea of making a major tv series about human evolution, given how poorly our society handles issues about which modern science gives definite answers (or raises important questions), I’d rather go for making the process and history (of the science) clear, rather than trying for drama that climaxes in the last 5 minutes of the show.

This series falls well short of the quality we’ve seen before, such as the one on Ardi a few years back.

11 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:48:22pm

I want to ascribe part of the problem to a trend that has been pushed for a couple of years, that what is important in science is telling a story. Social scientists and culture writers keep saying what will make science more appealing to the masses is telling a story.

Personally I resent that. Yes, resent that. What is underlying that approach are two ideas that I reject: (1) that science has to be appealing to everyone, and (2) that masses can’t really understand the details anyway so spin them a yarn.

The problem with #1 is that it ignores the individuality of humans, and many people just may never care about what some scientific field says out this or that.

The even worse problem of #2 is that it takes a very low view of humans.

12 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 10:52:45pm

re: #10 freetoken

Well, it’s one thing to paint in broad strokes, and quite another to substitute finger painting for Flemish masters like Rubens.

Here again is my beef: not the simplicity, but the presenting of science wrongly. The process that is described by the melodramatic music and narration betrays the real meanings of the data and what is behind the scientific process.

And even more importantly is the poor handling of words like “theory”, “proof”, and so forth. Add to that loaded words like “creation” and I think the narration really lets down the real meat of the project. The scientists interviewed themselves try to do a good job, but their explanations take up only a small portion of the hour long shows.

As much as I like the idea of making a major tv series about human evolution, given how poorly our society handles issues about which modern science gives definite answers (or raises important questions), I’d rather go for making the process and history (of the science) clear, rather than trying for drama that climaxes in the last 5 minutes of the show.

This series falls well short of the quality we’ve seen before, such as the one on Ardi a few years back.

Science and history docus are where the Beeb unquestionably does a better job than we Yanks. PBS, it seems, is following the lead of the Discover and History channels by making every science or history program a kind of reality TV episode, with artificial drama and suspense added to “grab” the audience. The BBC tends toward more sober exploration of subjects; like a college lecture series but with a bigger budget and more audiovisuals. I used James Burke’s Connections series in my physics classes, because he does a great job tracing the influence of one breakthrough on later history. High school students, naturally, found the series a total bore (I assume) but I at least appreciated its responsible approach to presenting the material.

Anyway, after I watch the first ep of First Peoples I may have more comments to offer.

13 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:53:14pm

And one of the clearest proofs of the overly-attached-to-Hollywood syndrome is their use of not the 16:9 aspect for all the program, but they keep inserting widescreen ratio mini-dramas, trying to give that big-screen feel with the video.

14 Teukka  Jul 3, 2015 10:54:06pm

re: #13 freetoken

And one of the clearest proofs of the overly-attached-to-Hollywood syndrome is their use of not the 16:9 aspect for all the program, but they keep inserting widescreen ratio mini-dramas, trying to give that big-screen feel with the video.

You mean like letterboxed 16:9?

15 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 10:54:49pm

re: #13 freetoken

And one of the clearest proofs of the overly-attached-to-Hollywood syndrome is their use of not the 16:9 aspect for all the program, but they keep inserting widescreen ratio mini-dramas, trying to give that big-screen feel with the video.

2001: A Space Odyssey did that kind of stuff way better, though perhaps not in an entirely scientifically accurate way.

16 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:55:00pm

re: #12 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Anyway, after I watch the first ep of First Peoples I may have more comments to offer.

It should be available to you online.

Yes, I prefer the BBC documentaries but there is now a great deal of variability in the quality there, with a lot of this need for drama creeping in.

17 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:55:12pm

re: #14 Teukka

You mean like letterboxed 16:9?

Yup.

18 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 10:57:07pm

Here’s an example:

First Peoples snapshot from Asia episode
19 goddamnedfrank  Jul 3, 2015 10:57:10pm

Sister Of Alleged Charleston Shooter Complains Massacre Ruined Her Wedding Day, Seeks Donations

According to Amber, “We know money cannot replace the wedding we lost and our perfect day, however it will help us to create new memories and a new start with our new family.”

20 Teukka  Jul 3, 2015 10:58:38pm

re: #17 freetoken

Yup.

O.O Why? 16:9 is a nice format in its own right.

21 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 11:04:35pm

re: #16 freetoken

It should be available to you online.

Not for me — copyright restrictions or something. I have to download it.

22 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 11:05:36pm

re: #18 freetoken

Archival footage, of course, by an embedded reporter.

//

23 goddamnedfrank  Jul 3, 2015 11:21:24pm

People need to think shit through and realize they’re just being played by conservative assholes interested only in comparing same sex marriage to something ridiculous, and that it isn’t even remotely related to.

24 austin_blue  Jul 3, 2015 11:29:14pm

Adios, all. Sweet dreams.

25 freetoken  Jul 3, 2015 11:35:04pm

re: #20 Teukka

O.O Why? 16:9 is a nice format in its own right.

It serves a function of sorts. The letterbox parts are the vignettes, the full 16:9 is the exposition.

But this brings me to those vignettes. Not a new thing in documentaries by any means, but there is a real risk here in that the vignettes are very much artistic interpretations, and what is shown may have little to do with what really went on 60 or 100 or 200 thousand years ago.

The vignettes are there because exposition is seen as too boring for the masses.

But again, I’m more bothered by the systemically poor explanation of how the science actually works. “Theory” is presented as meaning “a guess”. “Proof” is used when what is really shown is “not-a-disproof”, or a better word is “support”.

The underlying theme of the 4 episodes is that we are hybrids, which is a laudable goal given all the recent discoveries. Yet the discoveries that are present could have been put into a single one-hour episode. It would have been intense one hour, but I think that would have shown even better why Y-A00, Neanderthal DNA, and Denisovan DNA, all work together to illustrate how we are a combination of previous subspecies of Homo.

Few people end up studying ancient human genetics or physical anthropology (beyond the survey course.) There are reasons for that. The same for why few people also end up being Egyptologists or paleographers.

Namely (a) there are few jobs, and (b) because it’s hard.

Anything that breaks new ground is hard. The first farmers on the prairies had a hard life because breaking up the virgin ground was hard. Becoming a starter on an NBA team is hard because the competition is so fierce.

There is everything right with showing that science is hard. Making Hollywood-esque presentations of science is not doing a good service.

26 Mattand  Jul 3, 2015 11:39:02pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

Sister Of Alleged Charleston Shooter Complains Massacre Ruined Her Wedding Day, Seeks Donations

Hopefully one of the bride’s wedding gifts will be a fucking clue stick that someone will smack upside her head.

Your brother just murdered nine people praying in a church. It’s not your fault, but just shut the fuck up already. It’s looking like brains aren’t a family trait in this group.

Also, how much do you want to bet the Confederate Battle Flag will somehow be worked into the wedding?

27 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 3, 2015 11:46:13pm

re: #26 Mattand

Hopefully one of the bride’s wedding gifts will be a fucking clue stick that someone will smack upside her head.

Your brother just murdered nine people praying in a church. It’s not your fault, but just shut the fuck up already. It’s looking like brains aren’t a family trait in this group.

Also, how much do you want to bet the Confederate Battle Flag will somehow be worked into the wedding?

Had to pick my jaw off the floor with that one. If I were the groom, I’d leave this self-centered grifter now, before she makes his married life miserable.

28 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 1:11:45am

re: #20 Teukka

O.O Why? 16:9 is a nice format in its own right.

21:9 or go home!

////:p

29 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 1:17:05am

Yeah, if I was that dude getting married I would postpone or do a simple civil ceremony and let it go. The fact that they put themselves out there and tried to profit is repugnant.

30 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 2:28:39am

Our View: The Wisconsin Republican Party: Corruption, cronyism, and sleaze

As it stands, the Thursday night, pre-holiday attempt to eviscerate the state’s open records laws is a political calamity for the Republicans — there’s no way this outrage won’t damage the GOP brand — but unless it’s pulled from the budget it will become a policy travesty that will do far more harm to the very foundation of democracy.

It is nothing less than the attempted murder of honest government, and the perpetrators of it deserve the political equivalent of the death sentence: recall. To that end, the co-chairs of the Joint Finance Committee, Sen. Alberta Darling (R-River Hills) and Rep. John Nygren (R-Marinette), need to come clean and tell the world who authored this attack on democratic principles.

If they won’t, they need to be recalled.

As our readers are aware, we are not in favor of recall elections except in the most extreme and egregious instances, where potentially criminal or unethical behavior is involved. And that’s what we have in this instance, an extreme and egregious attempt to provide cover for those who would work against the public interest, either illegally or unethically.

31 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 2:38:57am

re: #30 Amory Blaine

Related,

32 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 2:47:15am

Our democracy demands that the people know who put the open record changes in the budget and if Walker knew about it. I’d love to see momentum on this and I would consider it an honor to be a part of another recall drive.

33 Amory Blaine  Jul 4, 2015 3:01:55am

BTW that editorial above is from the The Lakeland Times editorial board, a conservative rural “up north” publication.

34 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 4, 2015 3:10:50am

re: #33 Amory Blaine

Embedded Image

BTW that editorial above is from the The Lakeland Times editorial board, a conservative rural “up north” publication.

When you lose the conservative rural press, you’ve really lost your support. Did these so-called lawmakers think no one would notice what they did? They’re as stupid as they are dishonest.

35 William Lewis  Jul 4, 2015 4:20:57am

It doesn’t matter. Even if they don’t like the Walker regime, they won’t vote for one of Them from Madison or, worse, Milwaukee and DPW won’t nominate anyone from upstate. Walker’s lies will keep Wisconsin fighting against its best interests for a generation.

36 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 4:34:34am

re: #5 Ace-o-aces

[Embedded content]

Hey, anybody else notice that the granting of marriage licenses suddenly has gone from the foundation of society, to oppressive government intrusiveness? Wonder why that is?

These people also do not seem to grasp the distinction between the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and the civil status of marriage. Churches may grant or deny the former as they see fit, but government and society must recognize the latter for everyone.

37 Eventual Carrion  Jul 4, 2015 4:36:53am

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Our democracy demands that the people know who put the open record changes in the budget and if Walker knew about it. I’d love to see momentum on this and I would consider it an honor to be a part of another recall drive.

Does this mean they are going to STFU about Hillary’s emails?

38 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 4:41:40am

re: #37 Eventual Carrion

Does this mean they are going to STFU about Hillary’s emails?

No, it means they are going to shout about it even louder.

These people do not retreat, they reload.

39 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 4:44:33am

While a complete state recognition of polygamy is not feasible because of all the legal complications, I think a limited recognition is a must, e.g. hospital visitation rights.

40 lawhawk  Jul 4, 2015 4:49:08am

re: #23 goddamnedfrank

Then again, polygamy is biblical, so there’s that. If you want to talk about marriage being in the bible, then you better represent. /

41 Eventual Carrion  Jul 4, 2015 4:52:54am

re: #40 lawhawk

Then again, polygamy is biblical, so there’s that. If you want to talk about marriage being in the bible, then you better represent. /

But where do you find concubines anymore? Will Walmart start carrying them?

Edit: On second thought, I could always start raiding neighboring towns and taking my own.

42 lawhawk  Jul 4, 2015 4:58:48am

So, I got notification from Twitter (yeah, confirmed that it was indeed Twitter) that there was attempts at unauthorized access to my account. Funny how that works - strike a nerve with the right sort of people, and then people attempt to hijack your twitter account.

Love folks they are.

It is such a weird melange of whitesplaining and homophobia along with a serious case of the ignorance about what the law and how the Supreme Court ruled in Obergefell and prior cases.

The right of marriage was affirmed in Loving v. Virginia (striking down miscegenation laws that prohibited intermarriage). Subsequent cases built on this right. That includes Windsor and Obergefell.

The dissent claims that this right doesn’t exist anywhere in the literal language of the Constitution, except that the Equal Protection clause comes into play. And the dissent isn’t above reading stuff into the Constitution that doesn’t exist anywhere - see Citizens United.

43 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 5:06:02am

re: #40 lawhawk

You’re not a real manly man unless you have 600 wives and 300 concubines.

44 lawhawk  Jul 4, 2015 5:10:03am

re: #43 Nyet

Solomon would approve with 700 wives and 300 concubines. And he’s G-d approved (to build the Holy Temple no less).

45 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 4, 2015 5:11:27am

re: #41 Eventual Carrion

But where do you find concubines anymore? Will Walmart start carrying them?

Edit: On second thought, I could always start raiding neighboring towns and taking my own.

Concubines would be in the men’s department, sir. Ask for Larry. He’ll assist you.

46 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 5:16:11am

re: #44 lawhawk

600, 700… what are 100 wives between friends? /

47 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 5:18:08am

Roberts:

And a State’s
decision to maintain the meaning of marriage that has
persisted in every culture throughout human history can
hardly be called irrational.

Um. Roberts. The point is that there was never a single definition.

48 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 5:23:25am

Scalia:

When it comes to determining the meaning of a
vague constitutional provision—such as “due process of
law” or “equal protection of the laws”—it is unquestionable
that the People who ratified that provision did not understand
it to prohibit a practice that remained both universal
and uncontroversial in the years after ratification.12

Um. Scalia. They were also against intermarriage and thought of wives as property.

49 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 5:24:49am

re: #48 Nyet

Scalia:

Um. Scalia. They were also against intermarriage and thought of wives as property.

Interpreting laws based on “Original Intent” would exclude recognizing rights for women and negroes.

50 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 5:41:23am

I wonder if Scalia is a YEC.

51 sagehen  Jul 4, 2015 5:44:11am

re: #42 lawhawk

The right of marriage was affirmed in Loving v. Virginia (striking down miscegenation laws that prohibited intermarriage). Subsequent cases built on this right. That includes Windsor and Obergefell.

If I’d had to predict ahead of time, I’d have expected the decision to rest on “full faith and credit.” But the way it went is good too.

52 Varek Raith  Jul 4, 2015 6:14:02am

re: #43 Nyet

You’re not a real manly man unless you have 600 wives and 300 concubines.

Good god that would be horrible.

53 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 6:43:49am

re: #52 Varek Raith

Imagine the alimony in a case of mass divorce! :D

54 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 4, 2015 6:48:48am

re: #53 Nyet

Imagine the alimony in a case of mass divorce! :D

Not to mention the consequences of forgetting an anniversary or a birthday.

55 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 6:51:04am

re: #54 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Plus you have hundreds mothers-in-law.

/ducks

56 wrenchwench  Jul 4, 2015 6:55:08am

There was a beautiful rainbow this morning! So i put my contact lenses in, found my camera, looked at the photos on it from the past year (before my accident, including the last photos I took of my Dad), checked the battery level, and yeah, the rainbow had gone away. But my camera is ready for the parade and stuff.

57 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 6:57:16am

re: #56 wrenchwench

Why does nature engage in gay propaganda? Nature is against nature! Drill baby drill!

58 Varek Raith  Jul 4, 2015 6:58:57am

Silly yet epic;
…

59 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 7:01:52am

re: #58 Varek Raith

Didn’t get it, so I’ll go the BBL route.

60 wrenchwench  Jul 4, 2015 7:04:32am

Happy birthday!

61 Belafon  Jul 4, 2015 7:06:45am

re: #28 Amory Blaine

21:9 or go home!

////:p

What about the third dimension?

62 Dark_Falcon  Jul 4, 2015 7:29:13am

re: #60 wrenchwench

Happy birthday!

[Embedded content]

And interning on Lena Dunham’s show “Girls” as well. I haven’t checked to see if the Freepers or breitbart.com have fixated on Malia’s internship because I already know how they’d respond and frankly I find the sight of haters spewing racism sickening and depressing.

63 wrenchwench  Jul 4, 2015 7:41:44am

Later, lizards.

64 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 7:42:40am

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Our democracy demands that the people know who put the open record changes in the budget and if Walker knew about it. I’d love to see momentum on this and I would consider it an honor to be a part of another recall drive.

I wonder if Walker is stupid enough to think that this bill will help him with his presidential run by throwing up roadblocks to all the corruption investigations of his administration? No access to public info? Problem solved!

Wisconsin republicans seem to have no shame whatsoever. There is no bottom to how low they will sink. It’s been absolutely amazing to watch how quickly they’ve destroyed the state once they got control.

65 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 7:49:04am

re: #64 stpaulbear

Wisconsin republicans seem to have no shame whatsoever. There is no bottom to how low they will sink. It’s been absolutely amazing to watch how quickly they’ve destroyed the state once they got control.

But they did it in the name of ideological purity, so that makes everything alright.

66 Dark_Falcon  Jul 4, 2015 7:57:13am

re: #49 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Interpreting laws based on “Original Intent” would exclude recognizing rights for women and negroes.

‘Original Intent’ means the original intent of those parts of the Constitution that are currently in force. The parts of the original document that dealt with slavery were superseded by the 13th Amendment and then the 14th and 15th Amendments extended civil rights to all races. So Original Intent on civil rights matters now means “The intent of the Founders as modified by the framers of the Reconstruction Amendments”.

67 GlutenFreeJesus  Jul 4, 2015 7:59:53am

WI will be catching up to IL in no time if they keep going.

68 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 8:01:41am

re: #65 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

But they did it in the name of ideological purity, so that makes everything alright.

We already know how Scott Walker talks when he thinks he’s talking to one of the Koch brothers. Fucking weasel. Nothing pure about it.

(edit: I know you were snarking about ‘purity’)

69 Great White Snark  Jul 4, 2015 8:04:52am

re: #56 wrenchwench

There was a beautiful rainbow this morning! So i put my contact lenses in, found my camera, looked at the photos on it from the past year (before my accident, including the last photos I took of my Dad), checked the battery level, and yeah, the rainbow had gone away. But my camera is ready for the parade and stuff.

Thanks for the Page inspiration this morning.

70 GlutenFreeJesus  Jul 4, 2015 8:06:43am

Hope everyone enjoys their 4th.

…

71 Dark_Falcon  Jul 4, 2015 8:07:56am

re: #67 GlutenFreeJesus

WI will be catching up to IL in no time if they keep going.

Illinois’s current budget fight was long-overdue and very needed. It’s going to be rough on those who work for the government, but there’s nothing for it: The state of Illinois must either cut expenses or default.

72 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jul 4, 2015 8:11:35am

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Illinois’s current budget fight was long-overdue and very needed. It’s going to be rough on those who work for the government, but there’s nothing for it: The state of Illinois must either cut expenses or default.

I presume raising taxes would be out of the question. Maybe they can ask for a loan from the EU. /

73 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 8:13:45am

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Or..ahem..raise taxes on the rich. You seem to have left that option out. That’s part of what we did in MN and it’s working out very nicely, thank you.

74 Romantic Heretic  Jul 4, 2015 8:18:42am

re: #1 freetoken

First Peoples suffers from trying to make a very complex subject too simple.

North American audiences.

They hate nuance. They hate complexity. They hate uncertainty. They want good guys to win and bad guys to lose, just like in real life.

Any show that tries to do otherwise is going to crater in.

Sorry. I got up this morning and had to wrestle with modern technology before I had coffee. Not in the best of moods.

75 Timothy Watson  Jul 4, 2015 8:19:00am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

‘Original Intent’ means the original intent of those parts of the Constitution that are currently in force. The parts of the original document that dealt with slavery were superseded by the 13th Amendment and then the 14th and 15th Amendments extended civil rights to all races. So Original Intent on civil rights matters now means “The intent of the Founders as modified by the framers of the Reconstruction Amendments”.

Is there any evidence that the people who wrote and passed the 14th Amendment supported interracial marriage?

76 Timothy Watson  Jul 4, 2015 8:21:06am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

‘Original Intent’ means the original intent of those parts of the Constitution that are currently in force. The parts of the original document that dealt with slavery were superseded by the 13th Amendment and then the 14th and 15th Amendments extended civil rights to all races. So Original Intent on civil rights matters now means “The intent of the Founders as modified by the framers of the Reconstruction Amendments”.

Using that same “original intent” logic, would incorporation of the Bill of Rights as a whole have ever been done? It wasn’t until the 1950s that things like a right to trial, search and seizure, and other requirements of the Bill of Rights were applied to the states. Hell, using “original intent”, the court shouldn’t have made the finding in McDonald v. City of Chicago that they did.

77 Varek Raith  Jul 4, 2015 8:25:27am

re: #59 Nyet

Didn’t get it, so I’ll go the BBL route.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
/
…

78 Romantic Heretic  Jul 4, 2015 8:28:45am

re: #9 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Creationists and IDists seem to assume Darwin created his ideas in a vacuum, given their tendency to demonize him. In fact, parts of his theory of evolution had been kicking around for decades. He was the first to suggest a mechanism and a reason for traits to be inherited generation by generation..

What is rather amusing is that Darwin didn’t know what that mechanism was.

I understand Mendel sent a copy of his work to Darwin and it was sitting in Darwin’s to-read pile after Darwin passed away.

79 Dark_Falcon  Jul 4, 2015 8:29:46am

re: #75 Timothy Watson

Is there any evidence that the people who wrote and passed the 14th Amendment supported interracial marriage?

Given that the man most responsible for it, then House Speaker Thaddeus Stevens, was by his own request buried in one of the few racially integrated cemeteries in Pennsylvania, with a epitaph reading:

I repose in this quiet and secluded spot
Not from any natural preference for solitude
But, finding other Cemeteries limited as to Race
by Charter Rules
I have chosen this that I might illustrate
in my death
The Principles which I advocated
through a long life;
EQUALITY OF MAN BEFORE HIS CREATOR

Yes, I’d say interracial marriage was something he thought acceptable.

80 Romantic Heretic  Jul 4, 2015 8:33:48am

re: #12 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Burke’s The Day The Universe Changed is on of my all time favourite shows.

81 Romantic Heretic  Jul 4, 2015 8:37:25am

re: #23 goddamnedfrank

[Embedded content]

People need to think shit through and realize they’re just being played by conservative assholes interested only in comparing same sex marriage to something ridiculous, and that it isn’t even remotely related to.

As I pointed out in another forum each person in a relationship adds to the difficulty of maintaining a balance by a magnitude. The friction of differing personalities and goals makes attempts to keep thing balanced very hard.

I mean 50% of marriages dissolve. Why should a polygamous relationship be any more stable?

82 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 8:42:33am

I’m not going to link to it, but apparently the Breitbart website had to close the comments to a story about the Wisconsin guy who made serious death threats against Obama.

I just can’t imagine why…

83 Romantic Heretic  Jul 4, 2015 8:43:05am

re: #43 Nyet

You’re not a real manly man unless you have 600 wives and 300 concubines.

Remembering a little bit from Hollywood Squares from about forty years ago.

MC: Paul Lynde; The custom of having more than one wife is dying out in the world. Why?

Paul Lynde: Heh heh. Fatigue.

84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 8:45:01am

re: #81 Romantic Heretic

I mean 50% of marriages dissolve. Why should a polygamous relationship be any more stable?

And, as far as I know, polygamy refers to multiple wives. Multiple husbands is very rare.

85 RealityBasedSteve  Jul 4, 2015 8:45:11am

Making Greek rice pudding for a party tonight. Abrorio rice, cooked in milk, flavored with sugar, cinnamon, nutmeg and lemon. I always add in a bunch of raisins too. Thickened with eggs at the end. (basically a custard)

It’s like making a risotto, lots of stirring, adding more liquid as it needs it.

I LOVE it for breakfast. :)

RBS

86 Higgs Boson's Mate  Jul 4, 2015 8:48:03am

re: #85 RealityBasedSteve

Greek rice pudding? Has it threatened to leave if you don’t meet its demands?

87 calochortus  Jul 4, 2015 8:50:29am

re: #1 freetoken

Re: First Peoples

Not a great show, not a horrible one. The sound balance was way off on the first couple episodes-you could hardly hear the narration over the “background” music at some points. I’m not sure if that was a broadcast problem of some sort, or original to the way it was made.

In any event, I couldn’t get over the part where someone is trashing the “they moved along the coast” narrative by saying there was no evidence of ancient people along the coast. Well duh. It’s all well under water now. Sea levels have risen-as they themselves point out later in the series.
It wasn’t good enough to say we’ll probably never know about that, but look, here’s something new! It had to be a clean narrative about things we don’t actually know for sure.

[rant off]

88 calochortus  Jul 4, 2015 8:51:45am

And a Happy 4th to all of us here in the US.

89 Great White Snark  Jul 4, 2015 8:52:41am

re: #86 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Greek rice pudding? Has it threatened to leave if you don’t meet its demands?

No but you can only withdraw one bite a day.

90 JadeHelmCurious  Jul 4, 2015 9:01:45am

Happy Terrorize Your Doggies Day!

91 Dr Lizardo  Jul 4, 2015 9:06:55am

A Happy Fourth of July to all the stateside Lizards!

Remember to keep an eye on your four-legged friends.

92 JadeHelmCurious  Jul 4, 2015 9:13:12am
93 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 9:31:15am

re: #90 JadeHelmCurious

Happy Terrorize Your Doggies Day!

The kitty and I aren’t all that fond of fireworks either.

94 JadeHelmCurious  Jul 4, 2015 9:34:28am

I love fireworks. But think it should only be for pros. Or, rural areas.

95 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 10:00:57am

re: #94 JadeHelmCurious

I’ve got a neighbor who bought a shitload of bottle rockets that are designed for maximum noise; no sparkles, just BOOM at about 25 feet off the ground. I doubt that they’re legal in MN. My neighborhood has 40 foot lots and no alley, so he’s annoying the hell out of many neighbors when he comes out every hour or so and shoots off half a dozen of them in his back yard.

My evil side wants to have a couple of cherry bombs around so I can set one off on his front sidewalk at 5:00 am.

I’m afraid that I’m very get-off-my-lawn-ish about fireworks.

96 Single-handed sailor  Jul 4, 2015 10:15:09am

I have 60 lbs of apple wood, 40 lbs of mesquite lump charcoal, 3 slabs of ribs, and a smoker. Now if I could just get off my ass to make the rub, prep the meat and get the firebox hot. Maybe one more cup of coffee after this one, then I’ll start.

97 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Jul 4, 2015 10:21:46am

re: #84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

And, as far as I know, polygamy refers to multiple wives. Multiple husbands is very rare.

Just checked, it is called polyandry and it is rare outside Tibet, Nigeria and the Canary Islands.

98 makeitstop  Jul 4, 2015 10:26:18am

re: #95 stpaulbear

I’ve got a neighbor who bought a shitload of bottle rockets that are designed for maximum noise; no sparkles, just BOOM at about 25 feet off the ground. I doubt that they’re legal in MN. My neighborhood has 40 foot lots and no alley, so he’s annoying the hell out of many neighbors when he comes out every hour or so and shoots off half a dozen of them in his back yard.

My evil side wants to have a couple of cherry bombs around so I can set one off on his front sidewalk at 5:00 am.

I’m afraid that I’m very get-off-my-lawn-ish about fireworks.

I have a neighbor who did the same thing a couple of years ago, only with big-ass mortars instead of bottle rockets. Drove the neighborhood crazy for two days until he made a mistake and blew his left arm off at the shoulder. True story.

99 JadeHelmCurious  Jul 4, 2015 10:26:25am

re: #97 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

I’d be down with that as long as I got the sex and bbq duties.

100 William Lewis  Jul 4, 2015 10:27:13am

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Illinois’s current budget fight was long-overdue and very needed. It’s going to be rough on those who work for the government, but there’s nothing for it: The state of Illinois must either cut expenses or default.

Easy fix - raise taxes back to where they should be.

101 Pip's Squeak  Jul 4, 2015 10:27:21am

re: #97 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

Just checked, it is called polyandry and it is rare outside Tibet, Nigeria and the Canary Islands.

For what it’s worth, Tibetan polyandry was intensively studied by Prince Peter of Greece and Denmark.

102 stpaulbear  Jul 4, 2015 10:38:17am

re: #100 William Lewis

Easy fix - raise taxes back to where they should be.

No! The solution has to be rough on people who work for government (and therefore people who receive government services).
///

103 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 10:41:41am

re: #98 makeitstop

I have a neighbor who did the same thing a couple of years ago, only with big-ass mortars instead of bottle rockets. Drove the neighborhood crazy for two days until he made a mistake and blew his left arm off at the shoulder. True story.

That is horrible.

104 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 10:45:12am
105 Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 4, 2015 10:46:34am

re: #104 #FergusonFireside

Oh that’s good.

106 makeitstop  Jul 4, 2015 10:46:55am

re: #103 #FergusonFireside

That is horrible.

[Embedded content]

It was. One of the mortars didn’t get out of the tube before it exploded.

As soon as it happened, I told my wife that someone either got very badly injured or killed. The guy is lucky to be alive, IMO.

107 ObserverArt  Jul 4, 2015 10:49:48am

Happy 4th Footballers!

We often talk about what troubles the politics and civics of this country. You can always start with this…

…

Note from the YouTube :

Published on Jul 1, 2015
Media analyst Mark Dice asks beachgoers in San Diego, California some basic questions about America’s 4th of July Independence Day celebration and their answers are quite disturbing.

108 freetoken  Jul 4, 2015 10:52:09am

re: #107 ObserverArt

A:“Dude… surfs up….”

109 freetoken  Jul 4, 2015 10:52:44am

I bet quite a bit of correct answers get edited out to get a few who are clueless.

110 Eclectic Cyborg  Jul 4, 2015 10:53:29am

re: #109 freetoken

I bet quite a bit of correct answers get edited out to get a few who are clueless.

You might be surprised…

111 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 10:54:42am

re: #107 ObserverArt

Happy 4th Footballers!

We often talk about what troubles the politics and civics of this country. You can always start with this…

[Embedded content]

Video

Note from the YouTube :

Published on Jul 1, 2015
Media analyst Mark Dice asks beachgoers in San Diego, California some basic questions about America’s 4th of July Independence Day celebration and their answers are quite disturbing.

PITIFUL

112 ObserverArt  Jul 4, 2015 10:55:59am

re: #109 freetoken

I bet quite a bit of correct answers get edited out to get a few who are clueless.

I’m sure that happens too. But to me it is still disturbing there ARE people that do not know such a very basic history fact.

113 freetoken  Jul 4, 2015 10:57:25am

re: #112 ObserverArt

It’s the beach here in San Diego. See how purdy it was? Wouldn’t you want to be there? Why do you care about a bunch of dead people?

114 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 11:01:31am

re: #113 freetoken

It’s the beach here in San Diego. See how purdy it was? Wouldn’t you want to be there? Why do you care about a bunch of dead people?

So crowded. I can’t deal with that anymore.

115 b_sharp  Jul 4, 2015 11:02:53am

I’ve been seeing a lot of Great Ape chest thumping today about the American victory over the British.

Being the asshole I am, I tried to remind people that the (now) US won because the British were in three other wars at the time & that the French helped quite a bit.

Sometimes you just have to troll even your friends to make up for saying sorry all the time,

Sorry.

Happy ID friends.

116 PhillyPretzel  Jul 4, 2015 11:05:20am

Happy 4th of July (Independence Day) to all of my fellow Lizards. Even those who do not live in the USA.

117 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jul 4, 2015 11:07:27am

re: #115 b_sharp

I’ve been seeing a lot of Great Ape chest thumping today about the American victory over the British.

Being the asshole I am, I tried to remind people that the (now) US won because the British were in three other wars at the time & that the French helped quite a bit.

Sometimes you just have to troll even your friends to make up for saying sorry all the time,

Sorry.

Happy ID friends.

Woke up to see this on FB (posted by several of my friends in the UK):

118 ObserverArt  Jul 4, 2015 11:07:45am

re: #113 freetoken

It’s the beach here in San Diego. See how purdy it was? Wouldn’t you want to be there? Why do you care about a bunch of dead people?

I see. All that sun, sand an ocean breeze stuns them so they can’t think straight.

If this was being asked on a sweltering July day in tougher parts of New York city they’d know!

/

119 RealityBasedSteve  Jul 4, 2015 11:10:51am

Well the rice pudding is made and is busy cooling. I may have made a “bit” too much, seeing that it fills a 19 x 11 inch pan about 2 - 3 inches up. Tastes great, hopefully will go over well.

RBS

120 PhillyPretzel  Jul 4, 2015 11:12:49am

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

They are just jealous of us because we have PBS. /half

121 ObserverArt  Jul 4, 2015 11:13:02am

re: #115 b_sharp

I’ve been seeing a lot of Great Ape chest thumping today about the American victory over the British.

Being the asshole I am, I tried to remind people that the (now) US won because the British were in three other wars at the time & that the French helped quite a bit.

Sometimes you just have to troll even your friends to make up for saying sorry all the time,

Sorry.

Happy ID friends.

Your comment reminds me that we have our north south issues in America and in Canada your have some east west!

The French are still messing with the Brits in Canader!

Is the French Tri-color or fleur-de-lis images banned???

122 Belafon  Jul 4, 2015 11:25:48am

re: #107 ObserverArt

I don’t actually want to have my fears verified, thank you but no.

123 ObserverArt  Jul 4, 2015 11:28:04am

re: #122 Belafon

I don’t actually want to have my fears verified, thank you.

You can’t stand the truth!!!

124 b_sharp  Jul 4, 2015 11:28:56am

re: #121 ObserverArt

Your comment reminds me that we have our north south issues in America and in Canada your have some east west!

The French are still messing with the Brits in Canader!

Is the French Tri-color or fleur-de-lis images banned???

Hell no, French is an official language.

Mind you, out west here the wingnuts are still bitching about that and Metric.

125 Smith25's Liberal Thighs  Jul 4, 2015 11:37:57am

Everybody have good, safe, fun today.

126 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 11:39:31am

re: #125 Smith25’s Liberal Thighs

Everybody have good, safe, fun today.

haha good nic.

So y’all close to the shark attacks?

127 Smith25's Liberal Thighs  Jul 4, 2015 11:40:29am

re: #126 #FergusonFireside

haha good nic.

So y’all close to the shark attacks?

Bout a hundred miles north of em. Seen a bunch of dolphin, but water is still cold where we are.

128 RealityBasedSteve  Jul 4, 2015 11:44:57am

re: #127 Smith25’s Liberal Thighs

Bout a hundred miles north of em. Seen a bunch of dolphin, but water is still cold where we are.

A batch of my friends are going diving in Morehead City NC next weekend, check out the U-boat. The area is already well know for having a lot of sharks (sand tigers mainly). Some of them are a bit ‘edgy’ about this trip.

RBS

129 #FergusonFireside  Jul 4, 2015 11:47:09am

re: #127 Smith25’s Liberal Thighs

Bout a hundred miles north of em. Seen a bunch of dolphin, but water is still cold where we are.

Good!!

130 CuriousLurker  Jul 4, 2015 12:09:28pm

So I went Wiki-walking on the subject of marriage & polygamy, polygyny, polyandry, etc. and I somehow ended up here:

Sacred prostitution > Central and South America

The Mayans maintained several phallic religious cults, possibly involving homosexual temple prostitution. Aztec religious leaders were heterosexually celibate and engaged in homosexuality with one another as a religious practice, temple idols were often depicted engaging in homosexuality, and the god Xochipili (taken from both Toltec and Mayan cultures) was both the patron of homosexuals and homosexual prostitutes. The Inca sometimes dedicated young boys as temple prostitutes. The boys were dressed in girls clothing, and chiefs and headmen would have ritual homosexual intercourse with them during religious ceremonies and on holidays.

Xochiquetzal was worshiped as goddess of sexual power, patroness of prostitutes and artisans involved in the manufacture of luxury items.

The conquistadores were horrified by the widespread acceptance of homosexuality, ephebophilia, pederasty, and pedophilia among Central and South American peoples, and used torture, burning at the stake, mass beheadings, and other means to stamp it out both as a religious practice and social custom.

No details are provided on South American practices. I had no idea about this particular aspect of Mesoamerican culture/religion.

Gotta love that last paragraph—the conquistadores really knew how to show those awful barbarians the moral superiority of their European Christian civilization, huh? They sound an awful lot like a group in the news today… //

Oh, and Happy Independence Day! Here’s some eye-bleedingly awful clip art to commemorate this most important American milestone.

131 Nyet  Jul 4, 2015 1:10:49pm

re: #84 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

And, as far as I know, polygamy refers to multiple wives. Multiple husbands is very rare.

Polygamy refers to multiple husbands or wives.

132 Charles Johnson  Jul 4, 2015 3:06:34pm

Gee. I wonder why the Breitbrats turned off comments for this post?

Police Arrest Wisconsin Man Who Allegedly Threatened to Kill Obama - Breitbart


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