Breitbart Audience Reacts to Sanders’ Statement “America Was Founded on ‘Racist Principles” by Spewing Racism

Commenter: “Rejection of ‘Racism’ is civilizational suicide”
Wingnuts • Views: 47,448

In his speech to Liberty University, Sen. Bernie Sanders made the following objectively true statement:

“I would also say that as a nation - the truth is, that a nation which in many ways was created, and I’m sorry to have to say this, from way back on racist principles, that’s a fact - we have come a long way as a nation.”

Have you ever seen a statement more tailor-made for a Breitbart “News” racism grievance fest? Well, of course, that’s exactly what happened next: Sanders: America Was Founded on ‘Racist Principles’.

The article itself isn’t too inflammatory; it simply recounts what Sanders said. But the Breitbart business model doesn’t really require inflammatory articles any more. All they have to do is post something like this and let the commenters do the rest. And boy, do they ever.

Here’s a selection of the Breitbart audience’s reactions; as I write, there are almost 3000 comments in this vein. Some of the commenters fling insults at Sanders (including more than a little antisemitism), while others whine and complain about being falsely accused of racism. But some of them proudly admit to being racists, and even defend racism as a better way to deal with society. Yes, really.

So how racist are the leaders in Africa that sold their own people into slavery? Also name me one …one country that dose not have a skeleton in there closet…you can’t

[…]

Anti-racism is codeword for anti-white.

Signed,

A proud racist.

[…]

America ready for a socialist, Jew to be president?

[…]

Peddling race ideology and Identity politics are the principles of History’s most deadly tyrants

[…]

Bernie, you are a complete and utter moron. The majority of people that voted for Barack was that he was black, well O.K., half-black. His “ideas” were a far far second.

[…]

Another self-hating American.

[…]

Where are these communists coming from. Heard Joe McCarthy was a nut, but me thinks he knew what he was talking about.

[…]

Hahaha these liberals have so much white guilt, they rather thugs rape and kill white people, just to make the non thugs know they can walk all over us. How is that a good thing!?

[…]

Attention white guilt liberals like Sanders: line up now to sign up for your assault, burglary, and rape from the black thugs you are told not to judge!

[…]

And don’t cry out for me to come save you with my evil firearm

[…]

Rumor has it Jesse Jackson calls Bernie Hymie when he’s talking to Louis Farakhan. They love socialist jews…….in public.

[…]

Is there anything more insipid and boring than an old white person who can’t stand being white?

[…]

An overgrown manchild who can’t wash the white off in the white house?

[…]

This just in…….New Black Panther party calls Sanders Hymie from Hymont.

[…]

Don’t worry, any day the ghetto thugs are going to rise up and try to take over as the “violent” est ….. before they are put down by the “violencia” est.

[…]

This is a new one
a white, Jewish guy playing a black race card.

[…]

I’m outraged that our dialogue and history has been twisted to such an extent we believe it is a bad thing.

Racism is a useful building block for creating stable and harmonious civilizations. Some of the most long lasting and stable civilizations in world history are the most racist, such as China or Korea.

Naive blindness to racial differences is a disaster in the long term. We abandoned racism only 50 years ago, and look how much weaker and more fractured our societies and communities are now. We will not survive another 50 years of this.

[…]

Any people that wholeheartedly adopts ‘anti-racism’ will be erased from history within a few generations.

Some of the strongest and most enduring civilizations and peoples in world history are the most racist and racially exclusionary - the Han Chinese, the Jews, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Punjabi Indians, the Zulus, etc. etc.

The only morality is civilization. While I don’t advocate racial hatred, complete rejection of racism - rejection of ethnic in-group preference - in the long term destroys civilization. It is currently playing an important role in the destruction of our civilization right now.

[…]

Almost every country in the world was founded on racism.

‘Anti-racism’ is a bizarre modernist concept, with no precedent in history.

No people that fully embraces ‘anti-racism’ will survive for more than a few generations. Racism - in-group preference - is necessary for the survival of any people. The most demographically successful ethnicities - the Han Chinese, the various Indian groups, Africans, Arabs - are the most racist.

Rejection of ‘Racism’ is civilizational suicide.

[…]

The founders were very, very racist. Read any of their writings on the race.

But the thing is, they were right. The races aren’t the same. Black people aren’t as well suited, on average, to living in complex western civilization as northern Europeans, or of forming stable, liberty enhancing high-trust governments. Look at the story with literally every city that has become black majority and thus come under black governance. Disaster after disaster, with no exceptions of success stories to point to.

What is called ‘conservative’ today would have been ‘progressive,’ even radically so, just a generation or two today.

Don’t piss on your heritage. America was explicitly conceived as a white nation. That’s simply the reality of it, until 1965. It has been in perpetual decline since that idea was abandoned. Too bad the modern GOP, and most modern conservatives, are too ignorant and cowardly to say this.

This is why I say Breitbart “News” has become nothing more than a mainstream conservative version of Stormfront. They encourage and invite these kinds of horrific comments; it’s their business model.

Jump to bottom

229 comments
1
Iwouldprefernotto  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:47:43am

Read some of the comments. Hate and stupidity go hand in hand.

2
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:49:20am

The more honest ones are showing their inner Stormfront. America was founded as a White nation. Yep cons but go on and tell us about how liberals are like Nazis please when you have many on your own websites spewing this bullshit.

3
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:49:38am
So how racist are the leaders in Africa that sold their own people into slavery? Also name me one …one country that dose not have a skeleton in there closet…you can’t

This sort of juvenile diversion into “but someone else did something bad” always comes up when the topic is how, by being honest about our past, we might improve as a nation or as people.

4
Kragar  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:51:55am

re: #3 jaunte

Sort of throws the whole concept of “American exceptionalism” right out the window, doesn’t it?

5
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:53:23am

re: #3 jaunte

This sort of juvenile diversion into “but someone else did something bad” always comes up when the topic is how, by being honest about our past, we might improve as a nation or as people.

It also ignores that most of the slaves were kidnapped. I really doubt that pre-modern African governments would have been able to do much to prevent the powerful European powers from kidnapping people and selling them into slavery and I also guarantee that like what we saw with the Opium Wars that if those countries objected to what the Europeans were doing that the Europeans would have made war. It’s a disgraceful chapter. I don’t feel guilty about it but I don’t feel good denying it or making excuses for slavery either.

6
Kragar  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:54:05am

Liberals: “As Americans, we should be better than this.”
Conservatives: “NO WE SHOULDN’T!”

7
bratwurst  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:54:30am

Yes!!!!!!!!11!!!!

The Atlantic must be afraid that TNR is exceeding them in dumbass think pieces:

I was expecting so much more from a late night comedy show interview!!!11!!!

8
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:55:04am

re: #6 Kragar

Liberals: “As Americans, we should be better than this.”
Conservatives: “NO WE SHOULDN’T!”

You basically described the difference between the two ideologies in a nutshell. A conservative thinks America is great no questions ask. A liberal wants to know how he can make America a better place for all.

9
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:55:47am

re: #6 Kragar

Liberals: “As Americans, we should be better than this.”
Conservatives: “NO WE SHOULDN’T!”

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SILENCE MEEE!!!

10
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:56:14am

re: #7 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Yes!!!!!!!!11!!!!

You know, Trump insults of the other GOP candidates are exactly what we think of them. We all thought Perry putting on glasses to look smart didn’t work!

11
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:57:27am

re: #4 Kragar

Sort of throws the whole concept of “American exceptionalism” right out the window, doesn’t it?

Pshaw! American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with America behaving exceptionally. At least in the view of the Right. America is exceptional because God himself blessed us, so whatever we do, it’s okay, because we’re us.

Except letting gays marry. That will completely fuck that up.
////

12
Kragar  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:58:40am

“The Bible says they’re going to eat their arms, the Bible says they’re going to eat their babies, then it says they’re going to eat their children,” he warned. “That’s what people do when they get hungry.” In order to prepare for this, Bakker encourages viewers to buy buckets of food that he advertises on his show but not inform their neighbors that they have done so.

13
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:59:26am

re: #12 Kragar

Dafuq?

14
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:59:46am

re: #12 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Who wants a bucket of food when you can have tender, succulent baby? Get in mah belly!

15
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 11:59:49am

re: #12 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Oh this is rational sure.

16
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:00:19pm

re: #14 aagcobb

Who wants a bucket of food when you can have tender, succulent baby? Get in mah belly!

I’ll take 12 baby wings with Sirracha sauce.

17
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:01:05pm

re: #16 HappyWarrior

I’ll take 12 baby wings with Sirracha sauce.

I want my babyback, babyback, babyback….

18
KGxvi  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:01:22pm

re: #11 Blind Frog Belly White

that was more or less Bush’s argument on torture, right? The US doesn’t torture, so if we do it, it is by definition, not torture.

re: #6 Kragar

someone really needs to explain to them that while prudence is a good thing, going with the old “standing athwart history yelling stop” is only going to get you run the fuck over.

19
piratedan  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:01:29pm

re: #12 Kragar

nothing says tithing like fear and the end times…..

I really despair over the fact that so many are so gullible and those that aren’t appear to be happy to fleece the rubes that are.

20
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:01:47pm

I would disagree with Sanders about being created on racist principles. Not saying there wasn’t racism, but most of the people that came here did not come here because of racism, when they seceded from England, it wasn’t because of racism, when the Constitution was ratified, it wasn’t all about racism. There was racism, to be sure, when the nation was established, there was racism while the nation grew, but there was a lot more to it than racism.

21
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:02:57pm

re: #19 piratedan

nothing says tithing like fear and the end times…..

But every damn day???!!!

I mean some time, the times, they have to end…

22
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:03:20pm

re: #18 KGxvi

that was more or less Bush’s argument on torture, right? The US doesn’t torture, so if we do it, it is by definition, not torture.

I’m not sure he ever quite articulated it that way. Too articulate. But I think he BELIEVED that.

That sounds more like Nixon telling David Frost that what he did as President wasn’t illegal, because if the President does it, it’s legal.

23
Charles Johnson  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:03:48pm

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

He didn’t say America was created only on racist principles. Read the statement.

…a nation which in many ways was created, and I’m sorry to have to say this, from way back on racist principles…

24
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:04:55pm

To follow up on my #20, racism is often used to facilitate and justify exploitation. People of all races and nationalities were exploited along the way, and if the RWNJs have their way, it will get even worse.

25
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:05:02pm

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I would disagree with Sanders about being created on racist principles. Not saying there wasn’t racism, but most of the people that came here did not come here because of racism, when they seceded from England, it wasn’t because of racism, when the Constitution was ratified, it wasn’t all about racism. There was racism, to be sure, when the nation was established, there was racism while the nation grew, but there was a lot more to it than racism.

Well let’s face it, the notion we had a manifest destiny from God to take this land from the heathens and create a shiny new white civilization powered by African slaves is pretty racist.

26
missliberties  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:05:36pm

Bottom line is that appealing to racists pays.

Stormfront, er I mean Breitbart News is a perfect example of how to make money by promoting hate.

27
Franklin  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:05:40pm

re: #25 aagcobb

Well less face it, the notion we had a manifest destiny from God to take this land from the heathens and create a shiny new white civilization powered by African slaves is pretty racist.

Well, when you put it that way!

28
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:06:53pm

re: #24 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

To follow up on my #20, racism is often used to facilitate and justify exploitation. People of all races and nationalities were exploited along the way, and if the RWNJs have their way, it will get even worse.

I don’t think so.

29
KGxvi  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:07:02pm

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

In 1772, an English judge paved the way for the elimination of slavery in England. Southern colonists were concerned that if that precedent expanded it would mean the elimination of slavery in the whole of the Empire.

During the constitutional convention, the 3/5 compromise was instituted because Southern leaders wanted their slaves counted as part of the population but not given a voice in government (which may or may not have had something to do with voting rights being left to the states early on).

The Civil War was entirely about race, as was Jim Crow.

When the New Deal was passed, Southern politicians made sure that eligibility requirements made it so African Americans would see little of the benefits.

It’s not everything, but its hard to have an honest evaluation of American history without recognizing that race played an issue in almost everything.

30
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:07:08pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

That’s hard to deny, but lots of people do. I once commented that America was founded by wealthy white male landowners for the benefit of wealthy white male landowners, and boy, did THAT get attacked! But you look at the laws, and who could vote, and how they reasoned who should have the right to vote, and it’s pretty clear.

31
Skip Intro  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:07:37pm

re: #13 Blind Frog Belly White

RWW News: Bakker: Store Food In Secret Because Baby-Eating Neighbors Will Come For It

Jimbo’s gotten old, but I see he also has the reincarnation of Tammi-Faye by his side.

32
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:08:26pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

He didn’t say America was created only on racist principles. Read the statement.

That meaning of that statement wouldn’t change much if you inserted the word only. He could have said that racial principles were involved, or that racism played a role, but he didn’t. I think “created on racist principles” means created on racist principles.

33
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:08:31pm

OT, but this involves one of my major causes, tissue and organ donation:

34
missliberties  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:09:12pm

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I would disagree with Sanders about being created on racist principles. Not saying there wasn’t racism, but most of the people that came here did not come here because of racism, when they seceded from England, it wasn’t because of racism, when the Constitution was ratified, it wasn’t all about racism. There was racism, to be sure, when the nation was established, there was racism while the nation grew, but there was a lot more to it than racism.

Can you give us some examples?

They resolved the issue of how to count slaves by counting them as 3/5 of a person. Why was this done and what issues did it resolve?

35
piratedan  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:09:27pm

re: #21 ObserverArt

hasn’t stopped ‘em yet…. first its interracial marriage, then abortion, then birth control, then immigration and then the muslims, then bin laden, then north korea, then iraq, then iran and then same sex marriage… and mix in some they’re gonna tax you and take away your guns and death panels and yada yada yada….

and yet, climate change isn’t real, evolution isn’t real, it’s a parallel universe simulation being played out with real people living in a different reality

36
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:09:38pm

re: #28 wrenchwench

I don’t think so.

I’m referring to the Industrial Revolution, pre labor unions.

37
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:09:41pm

re: #12 Kragar

Bakker encourages viewers to buy buckets of food that he advertises on his show but not inform their neighbors that they have done so.

More of the “don’t share your stuff” gospel.

38
Kryptik  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:09:41pm

re: #7 bratwurst

Meanwhile, there are some actual insightful pieces and excerpts from TNC’s next big thing…and it’s drowned in the insistence that TNC is the world liar in the history ever and blacks really are inherently criminal inferior savage monsters and similar bullshit that seems to characterize a good 90% of the responses to his pieces.

That kind of shit continues to make me feel like the country as a whole truly is incurably racist to its core.

39
Franklin  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:10:04pm

re: #28 wrenchwench

I don’t think so.

Non white People of all races and nationalities…

Does that work?

40
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:10:25pm

re: #37 jaunte

More of the “don’t share your stuff” gospel.

Love thy neighbor, don’t help the mooching bastard out.

41
KGxvi  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:10:32pm

re: #22 Blind Frog Belly White

I seem to remember him saying something like that… maybe it was on classified information. Or maybe I’m just mixing up the wingnut talking points from the aughts.

42
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:10:55pm

re: #25 aagcobb

Well less face it, the notion we had a manifest destiny from God to take this land from the heathens and create a shiny new white civilization powered by African slaves is pretty racist.

And extensively verifiable if you read the contemporary arguments about it.

43
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:12:41pm

re: #32 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

That meaning of that statement wouldn’t change much if you inserted the word only. He could have said that racial principles were involved, or that racism played a role, but he didn’t. I think “created on racist principles” means created on racist principles.

Why are you trying to minimize the use of racism in the founding? Accuracy or tradition? (I think those two are in conflict.)

44
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:13:03pm

I think frankly our contradictions are as much part of our history as anything. We went to war in WWI to in Wilson’s worlds make the world safe for Democracy yet at home African-Americans had to worry for their safety constantly if they did a white person wrong in any way.

45
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:13:33pm
46
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:13:48pm

Jefferson pens the words “All men are created equal” all the while owning and continuing to own slaves.

47
nines09  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:14:14pm

re: #31 Skip Intro

Wasn’t Jimmy in prison for 5 years? Uh oh. Bet he’s gay.

48
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:14:40pm

re: #45 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Damn there goes my the chance to invite McCain to monitor my election in Narnia.

49
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:15:42pm

re: #44 HappyWarrior

I think frankly our contradictions are as much part of our history as anything. We went to war in WWI to in Wilson’s worlds make the world safe for Democracy yet at home African-Americans had to worry for their safety constantly if they did a white person wrong in any way.

My take on it is that America is exceptional because we constantly try to do better, to be better, than our past. Conservatism has ALWAYS been about thinking we don’t need to be better, and in fact, there was nothing wrong with how we used to be. That’s why I find Conservatism antithetical to REAL American Exceptionalism.

50
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:16:32pm

re: #25 aagcobb

Well let’s face it, the notion we had a manifest destiny from God to take this land from the heathens and create a shiny new white civilization powered by African slaves is pretty racist.

Like I said, racism played a role, but the country was expanding, racism or not. If it weren’t for racism, people would have still moved west and clashed with the Native Americans. Just because people clash over resources does not make it a racist battle. People justify exploitation by rationalizing that the people they were displacing were heathen/sub-human/unchosen/undesireable/the worst/rapists and murderers.

51
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:16:43pm

re: #39 Franklin

Non white People of all races and nationalities…

Does that work?

I guess the Irish were picked on for a bit, which is all that’s needed for some people to include ‘all people’ in other people’s movement’s names.

52
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:17:11pm

re: #49 Blind Frog Belly White

My take on it is that America is exceptional because we constantly try to do better, to be better, than our past. Conservatism has ALWAYS been about thinking we don’t need to be better, and in fact, there was nothing wrong with how we used to be. That’s why I find Conservatism antithetical to REAL American Exceptionalism.

Nailed it. A liberal tries to learn from his past and make the best possible country he can. A conservative looks at the past with fond eyes and refuses to see the reasons why that world no longer exists or failed.

53
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:18:00pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

I guess the Irish were picked on for a bit, which is all that’s needed for some people to include ‘all people’ in other people’s movement’s names.

Mostly it was newly arrived immigrants, some Irish, lots from eastern Europe.
You know, the icky sorta-white folks…

54
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:18:04pm

re: #50 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

It’s most likely the people affected didn’t care if it was the prime motivator or just a rationale.

55
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:18:28pm

re: #53 Backwoods_Sleuth

Mostly it was newly arrived immigrants, some Irish, lots from eastern Europe.
You know, the icky sorta-white folks…

Oh hi.

56
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:18:57pm

re: #55 HappyWarrior

Oh hi.

hi cousin!

57
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:19:24pm

re: #34 missliberties

Can you give us some examples?

They resolved the issue of how to count slaves by counting them as 3/5 of a person. Why was this done and what issues did it resolve?

There was more to the Constitution than the 3/5 compromise, which was actually an attempt to limit the power that was stolen from these people. Otherwise, the slave would have counted as a whole person (for the purpose of representation) and the owners would have even more power than they would have if the slaves’ humanity weren’t stolen from them.

58
Kragar  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:19:31pm

Got bored over the weekend, so I made this out of spare parts I had lying around

59
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:19:36pm

re: #37 jaunte

More of the “don’t share your stuff” gospel.

Now what would Jesus do? Oh yeah, “I was hungry and you didn’t feed me.”

60
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:19:43pm

re: #56 Backwoods_Sleuth

hi cousin!

Hi cousin Mick Hunky.

61
allegro  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:20:15pm

re: #50 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

People justify exploitation by rationalizing that the people they were displacing were heathen/sub-human/unchosen/undesireable/the worst/rapists and murderers.

FFS if that isn’t racist how the hell do you define the word?

62
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:20:31pm

re: #59 aagcobb

Now what would Jesus do? Oh yeah, “I was hungry and you didn’t feed me.”

“Good luck getting into heaven now asshole. Maybe if you acted like a decent human being instead of an Ayn Rand boy.”

63
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:20:51pm

re: #53 Backwoods_Sleuth

Mostly it was newly arrived immigrants, some Irish, lots from eastern Europe.
You know, the icky sorta-white folks…

It’s the opposite of cars and electronics. With those, the latest is always the greatest!

64
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:21:24pm

We’ll take the n-words but we don’t want the Irish.

65
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:21:30pm
66
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:22:31pm

Actually regarding immigrant labor, there was an excellent exhibit at the Donner Pass museum about the role of Chinese laborers and the Transcontinental railroad’s construction.

67
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:22:32pm

hahahahahahahaahaaaa

68
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:23:09pm

re: #67 Backwoods_Sleuth

hahahahahahahaahaaaa

[Embedded content]

Now it’s just getting sad. I can’t wait for them to sue the Supreme Court for their decision.

69
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:23:34pm

re: #50 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

Like I said, racism played a role, but the country was expanding, racism or not. If it weren’t for racism, people would have still moved west and clashed with the Native Americans. Just because people clash over resources does not make it a racist battle. People justify exploitation by rationalizing that the people they were displacing were heathen/sub-human/unchosen/undesireable/the worst/rapists and murderers.

Racism exists in the belief that ‘our kind’ have more right to something, whether it’s land, goods, or freedom than ‘their kind’. We were able to convince ourselves we deserved the land because God chose US for it, even though, oddly enough, he seems to have given it to someone else first. Once white people had taken over an area, they largely didn’t have to worry about other white people bringing an army to clear them out, so it’s hard for me to see that as NOT racist.

Similarly, we were able to convince ourselves that we deserved to have a whole race of people do our hard work for us because God wanted it that way. Since we had decided back in the 17th Century that birthright (?) slavery was strictly limited to black people, it’s hard for me not to see that as racist, too.

70
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:23:42pm

re: #66 HappyWarrior

Actually regarding immigrant labor, there was an excellent exhibit at the Donner Pass museum about the role of Chinese laborers and the Transcontinental railroad’s construction.

There was a lot of murder after the railroad was done.

71
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:24:09pm

re: #50 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

People justify exploitation by rationalizing that the people they were displacing were heathen/sub-human/unchosen/undesireable/the worst/rapists and murderers.

Which is racist.

72
bratwurst  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:24:27pm

Wow, Rubio has a deal for you: Send him at least $5 now and he won’t bother you again for the rest of this month!

73
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:25:12pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

There was a lot of murder after the railroad was done.

Yeah terrible. And the Asian Exclusionary Acts. Hey thanks for making it take half the time to get from New York to San Francisco but get the fuck outta my country now. Sigh and I am ashamed to say that a lot of the worst bigotry directed at the Chinese immigrant laborers came from other immigrants.

74
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:26:05pm

re: #72 bratwurst

Wow, Rubio has a deal for you! Send him at least $5 now and he won’t bother you again for the rest of this month!

[Embedded content]

We promise you that we won’t call when you’re trying to watch football and just want to be left the hell alone. We promise guys.

75
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:26:08pm

In the years to come, and people have to move inland to escape rising seas and more damaging storms, or they have to leave their homelands and find water to survive, somebody will lose. It may look like a racist conflict when one people either displace or prevent another people from moving in, but it will be a fight over resources, cloaked in racism.
When we moved west, we weren’t doing it for the glory of God. we did it because we wanted that land. The people in the wagon trains weren’t staking claims on behalf of white people, they were doing it for themselves. Manifest Destiny was just a justification.

76
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:26:58pm

re: #73 HappyWarrior

Yeah terrible. And the Asian Exclusionary Acts. Hey thanks for making it take half the time to get from New York to San Francisco but get the fuck outta my country now. Sigh and I am ashamed to say that a lot of the worst bigotry directed at the Chinese immigrant laborers came from other immigrants.

Easy way to distract people from the treatment they’re receiving is to direct their ire towards another group.

See the Republican base for other examples of this today.

77
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:00pm

re: #67 Backwoods_Sleuth

hahahahahahahaahaaaa

[Embedded content]

The Gubernatorial debate is tonight. I expect to watch Bevin try to work “Obama” into nearly every sentence he speaks.

78
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:04pm

re: #57 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

There was more to the Constitution than the 3/5 compromise, which was actually an attempt to limit the power that was stolen from these people. Otherwise, the slave would have counted as a whole person (for the purpose of representation) and the owners would have even more power than they would have if the slaves’ humanity weren’t stolen from them.

Honestly, I think you’re looking at that exactly backwards.

79
dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:09pm

im always amused by the way the wingnut reaction to any discussion of racism veers wildly between ‘martin luther king jr was a republican’ and ‘democrats voted against the civil rights bill’ on the one hand, and ‘this country was founded for white people and we are the most oppressed group now’ and insulting remarks about black people which i dont even care to paraphrase

80
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:25pm

re: #50 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

Like I said, racism played a role, but the country was expanding, racism or not. If it weren’t for racism, people would have still moved west and clashed with the Native Americans. Just because people clash over resources does not make it a racist battle. People justify exploitation by rationalizing that the people they were displacing were heathen/sub-human/unchosen/undesireable/the worst/rapists and murderers.

That bit you wrote that I put into bold type…isn’t that almost an exact definition of racism?

rac*ist
ˈrāsəst/
noun
noun: racist; plural noun: racists

1.
a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More

81
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:28pm

re: #75 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

In the years to come, and people have to move inland to escape rising seas and more damaging storms, or they have to leave their homelands and find water to survive, somebody will lose. It may look like a racist conflict when one people either displace or prevent another people from moving in, but it will be a fight over resources, cloaked in racism.
When we moved west, we weren’t doing it for the glory of God. we did it because we wanted that land. The people in the wagon trains weren’t staking claims on behalf of white people, they were doing it for themselves. Manifest Destiny was just a justification.

Dude, what qualifies as racism?

82
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:27:32pm

re: #76 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Easy way to distract people from the treatment they’re receiving is to direct their ire towards another group.

See the Republican base for other examples of this today.

Too true. More things change the more they stay the same.

83
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:28:14pm

re: #71 aagcobb

Which is racist.

Awww…I did not see your comment. I was in a comment box and taking too long.

84
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:28:33pm

re: #61 allegro

FFS if that isn’t racist how the hell do you define the word?

If you’re on land that I want to live on, it doesn’t mean shit what color you are. You gotta go. (to put it crudely)

85
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:29:39pm

/sigh

86
Tigger2  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:29:41pm

re: #31 Skip Intro

[Embedded content]

Video

Jimbo’s gotten old, but I see he also has the reincarnation of Tammi-Faye by his side.

And idiots like the people in that video wonder why people are walking away from religion, all I can say is, well if you act nuts then a lot people really don’t want to have to much to do with you.

87
No Country For Old Haters  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:29:51pm

re: #67 Backwoods_Sleuth

hahahahahahahaahaaaa

[Embedded content]

88
allegro  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:30:23pm

re: #84 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

If you’re on land that I want to live on, it doesn’t mean shit what color you are. You gotta go. (to put it crudely)

Which hardly explains the genocide of the aboriginal peoples of NA.

89
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:31:06pm

re: #84 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

If you’re on land that I want to live on, it doesn’t mean shit what color you are. You gotta go. (to put it crudely)

The difference in American history was that if you were a white man, you had standing in court if you wanted to dispute another man’s claim to your land. If you were black or native American, you didn’t.

90
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:31:36pm

re: #89 jaunte

The difference in American history was that if you were a white man, you had standing in court if you wanted to dispute another man’s claim to your land. If you were black or native American, you didn’t.

That precisely.

91
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:31:58pm

re: #84 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

If you’re on land that I want to live on, it doesn’t mean shit what color you are. You gotta go. (to put it crudely)

And the principle of racism is how you justified it. Jackson didn’t force whites onto the trail of tears to take their land; only Native Americans. Whites were subjected to limited indentured servitude, but only Africans were made into chattel slaves.

92
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:32:35pm

re: #84 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

If you’re on land that I want to live on, it doesn’t mean shit what color you are. You gotta go. (to put it crudely)

Once white people got the land, that was pretty much it. We didn’t have waves of people from the East tossing the white people off the land, just because they wanted it. They went and took more from the Other People, and when they’d finally taken all of it, they stopped. I think that is pretty much the opposite of what your thesis would predict.

93
goddamnedfrank  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:32:44pm

re: #36 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I’m referring to the Industrial Revolution, pre labor unions.

Okay. That’s not an example of people being exploited on the basis of their race though, but on the basis of class. Sanders’ statement wasn’t exhaustive, and it doesn’t negate the deeply racist institution of American chattel slavery that the nation was founded upon. It doesn’t negate the genocide of the natives, the fear mongering of the yellow peril, the internment of the Japanese, or anti miscegenation laws. It doesn’t even negate the hierarchy of whites faced by the Irish, Italians, Polish and everyone other than the English. We should be honest about our history, the anti immigration positions of Trump, phrased in explicitly racist ways against Mexicans in particular, comes from a deep, dark, and very American place.

94
dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:33:19pm

re: #91 aagcobb

And the principle of racism is how you justified it. Jackson didn’t force whites onto the trail of tears to take their land; only Native Americans. Whites were subjected to limited indentured servitude, but only Africans were made into chattel slaves.

the concept of slavery in the ancient world sounds positively progressive by comparison

95
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:34:17pm

re: #94 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

the concept of slavery in the ancient world sounds positively progressive by comparison

Indeed, in many of them children of slaves were citizens, or at least not slaves.

96
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:34:21pm

re: #61 allegro

FFS if that isn’t racist how the hell do you define the word?

The question arises though, does exploitation derive from racism, or does racism flourish because it justifies land theft and labor theft? I think that if this rich land was held by a few stone age Scandinavians, it would have been taken by the guys with firearms, and “Scandi” would be a word not used in polite society.

And the slavemasters would have stolen any group they could have gotten away with.

97
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:34:43pm

I shudder to think what Steve’s definition of racism is. But then, admittedly, Steve confounds the hell out of me.

98
goddamnedfrank  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:34:43pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

I guess the Irish were picked on for a bit, which is all that’s needed for some people to include ‘all people’ in other people’s movement’s names.

People with solid English ancestry were never discriminated here on the basis of race. Class yes, but never race. They were always at the top of the pyramid.

99
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:35:11pm

re: #78 Blind Frog Belly White

Honestly, I think you’re looking at that exactly backwards.

OK, if the slave were counted as a full person, the slave states would have had more representatives allocated to them, even though the slaves couldn’t vote. That would have made the slave states’ delegations in Congress even stronger than they were.
To make the argument more technical, only adult males were eligible to vote, but the slave states demanded to count their slaves even though they couldn’t vote. The compromise (and everybody knew it was a bad idea) was made in order to get the Constitution ratified.

100
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:35:36pm

‘Trail of Pearls and Fainting Couches’

101
Franklin  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:36:14pm

re: #72 bratwurst

Wow, Rubio has a deal for you: Send him at least $5 now and he won’t bother you again for the rest of this month!

[Embedded content]

I’d rather pay him Tuesday for a hamburger today.

102
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:36:15pm

re: #100 wrenchwench

Too bad your question hasn’t been answered. It’s the one I think is the most spot on.

103
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:36:55pm
104
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:36:58pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

The question arises though, does exploitation derive from racism, or does racism flourish because it justifies land theft and labor theft? I think that if this rich land was held by a few stone age Scandinavians, it would have been taken by the guys with firearms, and “Scandi” would be a word not used in polite society.

And the slavemasters would have stolen any group they could have gotten away with.

I agree with the argument that racism is used as a tool of justification, but I think Sanders’ statement is not dependent on whether the racism came from cynics or true believers.

105
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:37:31pm

re: #101 Franklin

I’d rather pay him Tuesday for a hamburger today.

How about we all don’t send him any money and he goes away.

106
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:37:34pm

re: #102 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Too bad your question hasn’t been answered. It’s the one I think is the most spot on.

He’ll get to it, eventually and unsatisfactorily.

107
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:37:52pm

re: #106 wrenchwench

He’ll get to it, eventually and unsatisfactorily.

Optimist.

108
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:37:57pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

The question arises though, does exploitation derive from racism, or does racism flourish because it justifies land theft and labor theft? I think that if this rich land was held by a few stone age Scandinavians, it would have been taken by the guys with firearms, and “Scandi” would be a word not used in polite society.

And the slavemasters would have stolen any group they could have gotten away with.

You’re still talking ‘other’. Race is a SOCIAL construct, rather than a biological one. HItler and the Nazis’ racism was also aimed at the blond, blue-eyed Poles.

109
allegro  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:38:28pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

The question arises though, does exploitation derive from racism, or does racism flourish because it justifies land theft and labor theft? I think that if this rich land was held by a few stone age Scandinavians, it would have been taken by the guys with firearms, and “Scandi” would be a word not used in polite society.

And the slavemasters would have stolen any group they could have gotten away with.

I think it’s a distinction without a difference. Regardless of its derivation or motivation it’s still racism.

110
EPR-radar  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:38:31pm

re: #57 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

There was more to the Constitution than the 3/5 compromise, which was actually an attempt to limit the power that was stolen from these people. Otherwise, the slave would have counted as a whole person (for the purpose of representation) and the owners would have even more power than they would have if the slaves’ humanity weren’t stolen from them.

The 3/5 compromise had nothing to do with limiting the power stolen from the black slaves. Instead, it reduced the representation of the slave-holding states relative to non-slaveholding states by counting slaves at 60% for representation.

Slaves had no political power at all, so their power is the same (i.e., 0) for any number between 0 and 1 that is used in place of 3/5 in that compromise.

111
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:38:54pm

re: #104 jaunte

I agree with the argument that racism is used as a tool of justification, but I think Sanders’ statement is not dependent on whether the racism came from cynics or true believers.

So it’s basically a self-winding clock. We’ll get to study it in detail when the Bug-Eyed Monsters find us.

112
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:39:20pm

re: #72 bratwurst

Wow, Rubio has a deal for you: Send him at least $5 now and he won’t bother you again for the rest of this month!

[Embedded content]

113
KGxvi  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:39:39pm

re: #99 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

The other alternative is that slaves were not counted as people. This was logical since they were chattel property and thus no more a legal person than a horse or a stool. But that would have significantly weakened the power of the Southern States under the new constitution. And again, high among their priorities was keeping their slaves, so the 3/5 compromise was better for them than a weakened delegation that gave more power to Northern States.

Also, the census and representation in Congress has never been based on the voting age population. It’s based on total population - men, women, children, citizen or not; and for the first 85 years or so, 3/5 of slaves.

114
dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:40:25pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

The question arises though, does exploitation derive from racism, or does racism flourish because it justifies land theft and labor theft? I think that if this rich land was held by a few stone age Scandinavians, it would have been taken by the guys with firearms, and “Scandi” would be a word not used in polite society.

And the slavemasters would have stolen any group they could have gotten away with.

i tend to think that racism or other things very much like it are pervasive in human societies

it doesnt matter what it it, as long as you can define another group as The Other

115
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:40:28pm

Good news; looks like the martyrdom of Kim Davis has most people saying, “do your damn job!”
patheos.com

116
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:41:03pm

re: #108 Blind Frog Belly White

You’re still talking ‘other’. Race is a SOCIAL construct, rather than a biological one. HItler and the Nazis’ racism was also aimed at the blond, blue-eyed Poles.

That’s because racism isn’t one thing. It is all kinds of constructs—most depending on best-guess identification.

117
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:41:42pm

re: #115 aagcobb

Good news; looks like the martyrdom of Kim Davis has most people saying, “do your damn job!”
patheos.com

I love the meme “Still did their job.” I saw a hilarious one this morning on a friend’s facebook. It had a hipster looking kid drinking a PBR.
“Hates PBR.”
“Still drank the damn beer.”

118
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:42:22pm

re: #115 aagcobb

Good news; looks like the martyrdom of Kim Davis has most people saying, “do your damn job!”
patheos.com

119
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:43:02pm

re: #107 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Optimist.

I miss Chankobun.

120
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:43:05pm

re: #114 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

i tend to think that racism or other things very much like it are pervasive in human societies

it doesnt matter what it it, as long as you can define another group as The Other

But it really takes off when you can find real-world advantages, mostly economic, in sustaining it.

121
Franklin  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:43:48pm

re: #105 ObserverArt

How about we all don’t send him any money and he goes away.

Deal, do I still get a hamburger?

122
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:44:20pm

re: #99 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

OK, if the slave were counted as a full person, the slave states would have had more representatives allocated to them, even though the slaves couldn’t vote. That would have made the slave states’ delegations in Congress even stronger than they were.
To make the argument more technical, only adult males were eligible to vote, but the slave states demanded to count their slaves even though they couldn’t vote. The compromise (and everybody knew it was a bad idea) was made in order to get the Constitution ratified.

What I mean is, there’s no reason to count the livestock for determining representation, unless you’re afraid of not having enough power to dominate the rest of the states. The default would be not to count the slaves at all, not to count then as a person.

123
KGxvi  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:44:22pm

re: #121 Franklin

for five bucks? I guess, but it probably won’t be a good one…

124
aagcobb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:45:11pm

re: #118 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Not impressed when Trump and Carson are polling better than the rest of the field combined.

125
Kragar  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:46:05pm
126
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:46:36pm
127
CuriousLurker  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:46:50pm

OT Drive-by - Just wanted to drop this off in case you guys haven’t seen it. It’s kinda weird to watch Khamenei ranting about the U.S. & Israel, then see Rouhani say something nice—it’s like they’re playing good cop/bad cop or something:

128
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:47:04pm

re: #122 Blind Frog Belly White

What I mean is, there’s no reason to count the livestock for determining representation, unless you’re afraid of not having enough power to dominate the rest of the states. The default would be not to count the slaves at all, not to count then as a person.

That was the Northern baseline position. 3/5ths was a simple political and statistical compromise that had nothing to do with the personhood of the real people.

129
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:47:32pm

re: #125 Kragar

[Embedded content]

So you read the parts where she said religion was a terrible thing and that abortion was just peachy right Ted? Or did you only read the parts that justified and celebrated selfishness, you stupid dumpkoff.

130
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:47:41pm

re: #116 Decatur Deb

That’s because racism isn’t one thing. It is all kinds of constructs—most depending on best-guess identification.

Racism is essentially tribalism, with a faux-biological justification.

131
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:47:54pm

Try to remember, or heaven forbid read what I actually wrote, that I don’t deny racism existed, or exists today. I’m saying that Bernie was wrong to say this country was built on racist principles. I’ll remind you that I said there was more involved than just racism. I went back and double checked what I wrote and it is there, without any editing, so you don’t have to refresh. (That’s why I put that follow up instead of editing the first.) Not all wars are racist. Not all conquests are racist. In fact all conquests are robberies. It wouldn’t have matted what color the Native Americans were.
I would add that exploitation goes hand in hand with conquest in human history. Racism is often the justification.
If you really want to consider the principles this country was built upon, there are (in no order) exploitation, conquest, and the one behind the Declaration of Independence, self-determination.

132
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:48:23pm

re: #127 CuriousLurker

OT Drive-by - Just wanted to drop this off in case you guys haven’t seen it. It’s kinda weird to watch Khamenei ranting about the U.S. & Israel, then see Rouhani say something nice—it’s like they’re playing good cop/bad cop or something:

[Embedded content]

It’s very possible they just don’t have their shit together.

133
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:49:19pm

re: #102 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Too bad your question hasn’t been answered. It’s the one I think is the most spot on.

What question wasn’t answered?

134
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:50:03pm

re: #130 Blind Frog Belly White

Racism is essentially tribalism, with a faux-biological justification.

It’s different things to an anthropologist, a sociologist, a DoJ lawyer, a job applicant, a skinhead, and his victim.

135
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:50:13pm

re: #131 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

Try to remember, or heaven forbid read what I actually wrote,

Downding for assuming criticism is not based on what you said.

136
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:50:20pm
137
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:51:21pm

re: #136 Backwoods_Sleuth

Embedded Image

Mrs. Puff?

138
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:51:22pm

re: #129 HappyWarrior

So you read the parts where she said religion was a terrible thing and that abortion was just peachy right Ted? Or did you only read the parts that justified and celebrated selfishness, you stupid dumpkoff.

I doubt Ted read it, and Rand probably used it to lift some passages for a speech.

139
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:51:41pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Downding for assuming criticism is not based on what you said.

And Steve is totally ignoring what Charles said in #23

140
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:52:19pm

re: #131 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

It’s significant that the founders could write about all men being created equal and also not admit that equality for their slaves.

141
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:52:44pm

re: #138 ObserverArt

I doubt Ted read it, and Rand probably used it to lift some passages for a speech.

Considering I have read The Fountainhead, I doubt he has either. She’s not a compelling writer at all. Her philosophy as John Oliver’s show got at an excuse to be spoiled jackass.

142
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:52:57pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

It’s different things to an anthropologist, a sociologist, a DoJ lawyer, a job applicant, a skinhead, and his victim.

?

143
Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:53:09pm

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I would disagree with Sanders about being created on racist principles. Not saying there wasn’t racism, but most of the people that came here did not come here because of racism, when they seceded from England, it wasn’t because of racism, when the Constitution was ratified, it wasn’t all about racism. There was racism, to be sure, when the nation was established, there was racism while the nation grew, but there was a lot more to it than racism.

There was a bit of sexism, like women not being allowed to vote or own property or sign contracts in their own name, but there was more to it than sexism…

144
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:53:13pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Downding for assuming criticism is not based on what you said.

I can live with criticism, but when somebody ignores one of the things I wrote, it isn’t fair criticism. I had one of these running discussion a few days ago and people kept ignoring the things I wrote in the opening post, (and then started making up stuff I didn’t say.)

145
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:53:26pm

re: #140 jaunte

It’s significant that the founders could write about all men being created equal and also not admit that equality for their slaves.

Exactly. That contradiction I think is part of our history. And I think that may be what Senator Sanders is getting at.

146
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:53:29pm

re: #140 jaunte

It’s significant that the founders could write about all men being created equal and also not admit that equality for their slaves.

Or their wives.

147
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:54:26pm

re: #146 wrenchwench

Or their wives.

or non landowners. The Founders were a very classist bunch.

148
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:54:57pm

re: #146 wrenchwench

Or their wives.

Well, they DID say ‘All MEN’. It’s just that they actually meant MEN, not ‘all of mankind’.
//

149
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:56:06pm

re: #147 HappyWarrior

or non landowners. The Founders were a very classist bunch.

To be fair, they did extend most of the rights in the Constitution to non-landowners, and even to women. Just not to slaves and Indians.

Edited to expand: Even people who didn’t get the vote still had rights. Women’s rights were more restricted, but they still got the benefit of most of the BofR. Slaves got essentially none of those rights, which is why counting them at all for purposes of determining representation was cheating.

150
TedStriker  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:56:53pm

re: #49 Blind Frog Belly White

My take on it is that America is exceptional because we constantly try to do better, to be better, than our past. Conservatism has ALWAYS been about thinking we don’t need to be better, and in fact, there was nothing wrong with how we used to be. That’s why I find Conservatism antithetical to REAL American Exceptionalism.

re: #52 HappyWarrior

Nailed it. A liberal tries to learn from his past and make the best possible country he can. A conservative looks at the past with fond eyes and refuses to see the reasons why that world no longer exists or failed.

Which is why the Lost Cause of the Confederacy tends to be so popular with conservatives; it’s willful denial that “their side” lost and was (or should have been) consigned to the dustbin of history.

151
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:57:04pm

re: #140 jaunte

It’s significant that the founders could write about all men being created equal and also not admit that equality for their slaves.

Well, if you already consider “others” as not equal, then the statement about equality is fine and dandy for the times. They probably should have written all white men of British decent are created equal, which I have a feeling they meant.

What is real significant is today you can still find people in this country that feel some “others” are not equal.

152
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:57:15pm

re: #142 Blind Frog Belly White

Each of those groups has one or more working definitions of race and the usually wrong actions taken based on it. It’s perhaps most solidly defined in civil rights law.

153
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:58:04pm

re: #149 Blind Frog Belly White

To be fair, they did extend most of the rights in the Constitution to non-landowners, and even to women. Just not to slaves and Indians.

True, true. Non-landowners still had the Bill of Rights apply to them.

154
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:59:21pm

re: #152 Decatur Deb

Each of those groups has one or more working definitions of race and the usually wrong actions taken based on it. It’s perhaps most solidly defined in civil rights law.

Ah, but I said ‘racism’, not ‘race’.

155
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 12:59:31pm

That’s the biggest reason these strict constructionists have to be beaten in the polls. Everytime I see somebody who thinks that Donald Trump, or any of those clowns would make a good President I shudder, and I wonder what gaps they have in their body of cognitive experience that leads them to think this is the way to go. I hate to sound paternal, but a lot of these people would vote against their own (economic, political, justice, social) interests for no really good reason.

156
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:01:50pm

re: #155 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

That’s the biggest reason these strict constructionists have to be beaten in the polls. Everytime I see somebody who thinks that Donald Trump, or any of those clowns would make a good President I shudder, and I wonder what gaps they have in their body of cognitive experience that leads them to think this is the way to go. I hate to sound paternal, but a lot of these people would vote against their own (economic, political, justice, social) interests for no really good reason.

No big revelation there Steve. That has been going on at least since Reagan. It is how the country has gotten to where it is today.

Union busting was a good indicator of where some conservative thinking was going.

157
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:02:27pm

re: #153 HappyWarrior

True, true. Non-landowners still had the Bill of Rights apply to them.

The Native American part gets dicey. They were theoretically treated as persons fully empowered to surrender their land through treaties. Their legal status was upheld in the courts despite Andrew Jackson’s rejection. (If you want to start finding an American Hitler, you might start there. It didn’t hurt his presidential campaign.)

158
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:02:31pm

re: #133 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

What question wasn’t answered?

It’s right there in a reply to one of your posts.

Maybe you should read what other people are saying too.

159
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:03:01pm
160
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:03:19pm

re: #157 Decatur Deb

The Native American part gets dicey. They were theoretically treated as persons fully empowered to surrender their land through treaties. Their legal status was upheld in the courts despite Andrew Jackson’s rejection. (If you want to start finding an American Hitler, you might start there. It didn’t hurt his presidential campaign.)

That’s why I wonder why they’d replace Hamilton on currency, and not Jackson.

161
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:03:47pm

re: #159 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Still wouldn’t help. Thrust is a word.

162
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:04:05pm

re: #154 Blind Frog Belly White

Ah, but I said ‘racism’, not ‘race’.

Racism is the misuse of the concept. It has some valid uses, and that’s why we collect data on it.

163
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:04:17pm

re: #161 Blind Frog Belly White

Still wouldn’t help. Thrust is a word.

They probably meant proofread, but spellcheck doesn’t catch that kind of mistake either.

164
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:05:59pm

re: #159 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Dear Penthouse Forum.

165
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:07:15pm

re: #132 Decatur Deb

It’s very possible they just don’t have their shit together.

The nuclear deal was a big win for the reasonable people. The religious nuts, when they feel their influence slipping even the slightest amount, lash out. Just like here.

166
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:08:59pm

re: #156 ObserverArt

And people who benefited from unions are going along with the union busting. When I had my little factory, we had a union referendum once. It didn’t pass (only got two votes in favor!), but I tried to do my best for the employees, and I think they knew it. I think I would have been fair anyway, but the guy before me wasn’t (maybe the contrast had something to do with the vote). My parents were active in their unions and I understood fundamentally that the economy needs a strong middle class, not that my little factory would make a diff.

167
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:10:44pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

Racism is the misuse of the concept. It has some valid uses, and that’s why we collect data on it.

As generally used, race is almost completely a social concept. It brings with it some aspects of national origin, but considering that Africans are more genetically diverse than the rest of humanity, mostly it’s JUST a social concept. That is, classing the most diverse population in the world as ONE RACE while slicing a less diverse population into multiple subgroups makes no sense, scientifically.

168
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:10:51pm

re: #158 klys (maker of Silmarils)

It’s right there in a reply to one of your posts.

Maybe you should read what other people are saying too.

I must have missed it, it wouldn’t have killed you to repeat it.

169
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:11:37pm

re: #168 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I must have missed it, it wouldn’t have killed you to repeat it.

It wasn’t my question to start with.

170
WhatEVs  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:12:40pm

re: #31 Skip Intro

[Embedded content]

Video

Jimbo’s gotten old, but I see he also has the reincarnation of Tammi-Faye by his side.

How on earth is Jim freaking Bakker even a thing? I mean, forgiveness is one thing, but he ripped off his followers. And went to prison…right?

Man, oh man. Religious people boggle my mind.

171
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:12:52pm

Please, just repeat the question.

172
ObserverArt  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:14:33pm

Uh Steve, it took me all of 20 seconds to scroll up to wrench’s comments and see this. I beleive this is the question…in question.

re: #43 wrenchwench

Why are you trying to minimize the use of racism in the founding? Accuracy or tradition? (I think those two are in conflict.)

173
Lidane  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:14:42pm

Raving Freakazoid Nut Sandwich tries to channel his inner Joseph Welch:

174
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:14:49pm

re: #43 wrenchwench

Why are you trying to minimize the use of racism in the founding? Accuracy or tradition? (I think those two are in conflict.)

I guess that’s the one. I din’t minimize anything. I just disagreed with Bernie that the country was built on racist principles. I said there is more to it than that. (So I guess accuracy) Like I said above, I can live with criticism, but you are arguing against points I didn’t make.

175
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:14:58pm

re: #170 WhatEVs

How on earth is Jim freaking Bakker even a thing? I mean, forgiveness is one thing, but he ripped off his followers. And went to prison…right?

Man, oh man. Religious people boggle my mind.

Some people just like being suckered around by con men. The neat thing though is from what I understand his son is the total opposite of dear old Dad.

176
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:15:23pm

re: #173 Lidane

Raving Freakazoid Nut Sandwich tries to channel his inner Joseph Welch:

[Embedded content]

He’ll be apologizing before Happy Hour.

177
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:15:54pm

re: #174 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I guess that’s the one. I din’t minimize anything. I just disagreed with Bernie that the country was built on racist principles. I said there is more to it than that. (So I guess accuracy) Like I said above, I can live with criticism, but you are arguing against points I didn’t make.

And Bernie did not say what you are claiming that he said.

178
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:16:57pm

re: #169 klys (maker of Silmarils)

re: #172 ObserverArt

Granted, but you guys had seen it, I missed it so I had to go more thoroughly through the thread, so it took longer.

179
teleskiguy  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:19:24pm

“The subjugation and enslavement of black people and the systematic genocide of the aboriginal peoples on the North American continent during the 18th and 19th centuries had little or nothing to do with racism.”

Good fucking grief.

180
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:19:34pm

re: #177 Backwoods_Sleuth

And Bernie did not say what you are claiming that he said.

Right, “in many ways”. So then maybe the other commenters should be disputing what Bernie said, since I didn’t actually disagree with him?

181
bratwurst  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:19:54pm

re: #173 Lidane

Raving Freakazoid Nut Sandwich tries to channel his inner Joseph Welch:

[Embedded content]

In case anyone might have the mistaken impression that Beck is going to war with Breitbart for philosophical reasons, he isn’t. He is simply upset they slammed him last week for calling Palin a clown (which he immediately walked back) and this week for calling on this country to save Syrian Christians.

That and the fact that he has a fake news site that competes with Breitbart, of course.

182
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:20:38pm

re: #174 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I guess that’s the one. I din’t minimize anything. I just disagreed with Bernie that the country was built on racist principles. I said there is more to it than that.

Founded “in many ways” on racist principles doesn’t mean founded “solely” on racist principles.

183
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:20:58pm

re: #181 bratwurst

In case anyone might have the mistaken impression that Beck is going to war with Breitbart for philosophical reasons, he isn’t. He is simply upset they slammed him last week for calling Palin a clown (which he immediately walked back) and this week for calling on this country to save Syrian Christians.

That and the fact that he has a fake news site that competes with Breitbart, of course.

Don’t you just hate it when Mommy and Daddy Wingnut fight? //

184
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:21:16pm

re: #167 Blind Frog Belly White

As generally used, race is almost completely a social concept. It brings with it some aspects of national origin, but considering that Africans are more genetically diverse than the rest of humanity, mostly it’s JUST a social concept. That is, classing the most diverse population in the world as ONE RACE while slicing a less diverse population into multiple subgroups makes no sense, scientifically.

In practical terms, in America, the most important concept of race is legal. Voter rights, housing, affirmative action, hate crime prosecution, and public accommodation all rely on that construct. (Unless we’re arguing about how broad the definition of ‘social’ is.)

185
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:21:20pm

re: #182 jaunte

Founded “in many ways” on racist principles doesn’t mean founded “solely” on racist principles.

Apparently we just all read that differently. It’s always so nice to be lectured about how wrong we all are.

186
b_sharp  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:21:28pm

re: #171 Blind Frog Belly White

Please, just repeat the question.

Why do boobs come in different sizes?

187
bratwurst  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:21:35pm

re: #180 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

So then maybe the other commenters should be disputing what Bernie said, since I didn’t actually disagree with him?

re: #20 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I would disagree with Sanders about being created on racist principles..

Don’t you ever get tired of this kind of game? Serious question.

188
jp_chgo  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:21:41pm

re: #75 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

The people in the wagon trains weren’t staking claims on behalf of white people, they were doing it for themselves. Manifest Destiny was just a justification.

So, slavery, 3/5’s, Manifest Destiny, are all not-racist. What’s the “real” reason for lynching, disenfranchisement, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, etc since those clearly must be not-racist too.

189
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:22:00pm

re: #186 b_sharp

Why do boobs come in different sizes?

Why can’t I find a damn bra that fits and holds up well in the wash?

190
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:22:55pm

In my opinion, The United States is the most successful scam of the “Do as I say, not as I do” variety in history. We’ve sanctimoniously lectured many countries worldwide into instituting governments based on declared principles that we’ve never come close to meeting ourselves, and then hectored them when they fell short, despite being miles ahead of us.

If only the Reagan era hadn’t come along and shown everybody that selfishness and fanaticism were OK—“If the Americans say it, it must be true!”

191
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:23:10pm

I haz whiplash now…

192
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:23:50pm

re: #189 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Why can’t I find a damn bra that fits and holds up well in the wash?

I thought you were supposed to take them off when you wash?

193
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:24:00pm

re: #183 HappyWarrior

Don’t you just hate it when Mommy and Daddy Wingnut fight? //

No.

194
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:24:25pm

re: #192 Blind Frog Belly White

I thought you were supposed to take them off when you wash?

But riding around in the washing machine is so much fun!

195
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:24:32pm

re: #182 jaunte

Founded “in many ways” on racist principles doesn’t mean founded “solely” on racist principles.

Right, I agree. See my 180 (How appropriate!)

196
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:00pm

re: #188 jp_chgo

So, slavery, 3/5’s, Manifest Destiny, are all not-racist. What’s the “real” reason for lynching, disenfranchisement, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, etc since those clearly must be not-racist too.

There is more than one possible answer. And one of those answers is: “It’s profitable.”

197
b_sharp  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:03pm

re: #194 klys (maker of Silmarils)

But riding around in the washing machine is so much fun!

It gives me a headache.

198
HappyWarrior  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:17pm

re: #193 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

No.

Sarc tags dude. It’s so fun to watch these guys argue with each other to me.

199
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:25pm

re: #197 b_sharp

It gives me a headache.

You’re not supposed to have a drink first.

200
jaunte  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:43pm

re: #195 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I see your 20 and you’re going in circles.

201
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:25:48pm

re: #189 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Why can’t I find a damn bra that fits and holds up well in the wash?

“They discontinued my wife’s bra, yet my wife lives on.”

—Al Bundy

202
No Country For Old Haters  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:26:38pm

re: #118 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

203
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:26:45pm

re: #174 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

I guess that’s the one. I din’t minimize anything. I just disagreed with Bernie that the country was built on racist principles. I said there is more to it than that. (So I guess accuracy) Like I said above, I can live with criticism, but you are arguing against points I didn’t make.

Here’s the other question it could have been: What qualifies as racism in your view?

205
teleskiguy  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:29:28pm
206
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:29:58pm

re: #204 CuriousLurker

[Embedded content]

We’ll have to write the ‘New Thread Fallacy’.

207
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:30:39pm

re: #206 wrenchwench

We’ll have to write the ‘New Thread Fallacy’.

She does have the perfect “end all arguments” card.

208
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:31:10pm

The contention in this thread, in an audience largely sympathetic to Sanders, shows why he isn’t going anywhere. There are a lot of true-enough statements that don’t work well when nailing together a party platform.

209
allegro  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:33:43pm

There are advatages to being old and crochety. I just put out my dogs’ dinners which consist of a handful of kibbles mixed with fresh cooked chicken thighs and broth. My old dog just ate the chicken out of both bowls leaving the kibbles for the young kid who is too deferential to the old guy to argue.

210
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:34:54pm

re: #188 jp_chgo

So, slavery, 3/5’s, Manifest Destiny, are all not-racist. What’s the “real” reason for lynching, disenfranchisement, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, etc since those clearly must be not-racist too.

Where did I say they weren’t? I said we would have moved west (Manifest Destiny) no matter who was out there. As I said before, Manifest Destiny was just an excuse. We were moving west before anybody came up with that excuse. The 3/5 compromise was the result of the effort to keep the slaveowners who wanted to steal every bit of humanity from the slaves they could against the people who didn’t want the slaveowners to have more representation in Congress. (We’ve actually had this discussion in the past and many commenters felt that the 3/5 compromise was actually supportive of the slave for that very reason). ANd there is nothing I EVER said or wrote here that would lead you to conclude that I would believe lynching and disenfranchisement and Jim Crow were anything but racist. I’ve often pointed to disenfranchisement efforts currently as a threat to all of us, not just minorities.

211
jp_chgo  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:35:37pm

deleted

212
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:35:50pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

In practical terms, in America, the most important concept of race is legal. Voter rights, housing, affirmative action, hate crime prosecution, and public accommodation all rely on that construct. (Unless we’re arguing about how broad the definition of ‘social’ is.)

You’re talking about how the concept is used. I’m talking about how the concept is defined, i.e. how we decide who is part of what race. If the groupings make no sense from a biological standpoint, then it’s a social concept. We lump together populations that have been diverging for 200,000 years, while dividing up a population that’s only been diverging for 30,000.

213
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:42:50pm

re: #212 Blind Frog Belly White

You’re talking about how the concept is used. I’m talking about how the concept is defined, i.e. how we decide who is part of what race. If the groupings make no sense from a biological standpoint, then it’s a social concept. We lump together populations that have been diverging for 200,000 years, while dividing up a population that’s only been diverging for 30,000.

There are (more properly have been) a bunch of anthropological definitions of race. some involve characteristics other than skin/hair/appearance. Almost all rely on an isolated genetic pool, thus pretty much began to vaporize with the onset of hard-surfaced roads and sailing ships. (For the most part, in America, we decide who is in what race through self-identification. That’s why the Shaun King outcry is BS.)

214
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:43:09pm

re: #203 wrenchwench

Here’s the other question it could have been: What qualifies as racism in your view?

There is the textbook definition that racism is the belief that qualities can be generalized to people strictly because of their racial characteristics.
However, in practice, racism is used in place of discrimination and victimization, also based on racial characteristics.
The relevance here is that I argued that the Westward migration would have happened independently of any racist agenda. Manifest Destiny was just an excuse established after the migration had begun. In addition, many people were exploited during the Industrial Revolution members of their own race, and there was even exploitation of children and women. I never said racism was insignificant. I said there was more at work than just racism.
Later, I saw Bernie’s qualification that I acknowledged in my 180. And the funny thing is that people were arguing with me for essentially agreeing with Bernie. Ultimately, the only thing I have to retract are the words “I would disagree with Sanders.” Go figure.

215
Jay C  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:53:16pm

re: #52 HappyWarrior

A liberal tries to learn from his past and make the best possible country he can. A conservative looks at the past with fond eyes and refuses to see the reasonsblames liberals why that world no longer exists or failed.

Edit for clarity.

216
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 15, 2015 • 1:53:17pm

re: #213 Decatur Deb

There are (more properly have been) a bunch of anthropological definitions of race. some involve characteristics other than skin/hair/appearance. Almost all rely on an isolated genetic pool, thus pretty much began to vaporize with the onset of hard-surfaced roads and sailing ships. (For the most part, in America, we decide who is in what race through self-identification. That’s why the Shaun King outcry is BS.)

I’d argue that in America, white people decide who is in what race by self-identification. To the extent that there is self-identification now in official documents, etc., it is largely left over from when we white people decided who was what - hence TNC’s construction ‘people who believe themselves to be white’.

Consider when Obama was running in 2008, and people were saying “He’s only half black!”, as if that has any meaning in America. His “white half” hasn’t stopped people saying he’s a Muslim, or an Illegal Immigrant, or any of the far less restrained things the racists call him. My usual response to the ‘not really black’ nonsense is “Which fountain would he be allowed to drink from in 1950s Mississippi?”

Obama could self-define as white from now till the cows come home, and he’d still be defined as black by white society, so I disagree that it’s self-identification.

217
Decatur Deb  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:01:58pm

re: #216 Blind Frog Belly White

I’d argue that in America, white people decide who is in what race by self-identification. To the extent that there is self-identification now in official documents, etc., it is largely left over from when we white people decided who was what - hence TNC’s construction ‘people who believe themselves to be white’.

Consider when Obama was running in 2008, and people were saying “He’s only half black!”, as if that has any meaning in America. His “white half” hasn’t stopped people saying he’s a Muslim, or an Illegal Immigrant, or any of the far less restrained things the racists call him. My usual response to the ‘not really black’ nonsense is “Which fountain would he be allowed to drink from in 1950s Mississippi?”

Obama could self-define as white from now till the cows come home, and he’d still be defined as black by white society, so I disagree that it’s self-identification.

Once again, I’m hanging close to the legal part of what you see as an overall ‘social’ construct. Every American dealing with the Federal government self-identifies on forms that have real-world impact: everything from the census, through medical, to employment/education forms.

The other side of identification, community opinion, was once very powerful but has broken down in the era of mobility and de jure equality. The Prez can drink anywhere he pleases, now.

218
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:02:41pm

re: #214 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

There is the textbook definition that racism is the belief that qualities can be generalized to people strictly because of their racial characteristics.
However, in practice, racism is used in place of discrimination and victimization, also based on racial characteristics.
The relevance here is that I argued that the Westward migration would have happened independently of any racist agenda. Manifest Destiny was just an excuse established after the migration had begun. In addition, many people were exploited during the Industrial Revolution members of their own race, and there was even exploitation of children and women. I never said racism was insignificant. I said there was more at work than just racism.
Later, I saw Bernie’s qualification that I acknowledged in my 180. And the funny thing is that people were arguing with me for essentially agreeing with Bernie. Ultimately, the only thing I have to retract are the words “I would disagree with Sanders.” Go figure.

In your view, can a person act in a racist manner if they don’t have a racist agenda?

219
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:14:15pm

re: #218 wrenchwench

In your view, can a person act in a racist manner if they don’t have a racist agenda?

There is not a unique definition of racism in play. Like I said above, there is the textbook definition (that it is an idea) and the working definition (that behavior is racist).
If I’m a developer and I bribe my city councilman (or whoever) to let me take over a city block by eminent domain so I can build a strip mall, do you have to wait to see the demos of who lived there before you declare the action racist? If it turned out they were the same race of the developer, some would judge it a land grab. If they were different race, they would call it a racist expulsion. All I wanted as a developer is to build a strip mall. Most likely, conquest is done for the sake of robbery, regardless of who lived there.
So yes, I believe that a person can do something that looks racist with a different agenda.
I have seen posts in which people seem to be accusing me of denying racism exists. I haven’t done it here, and I haven’t done it elsewhere.

220
makeitstop  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:17:40pm

re: #119 wrenchwench

I miss Chankobun.

Flounce? Or suicide by Stinky?

221
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:19:59pm

re: #220 makeitstop

Flounce? Or suicide by Stinky?

He left under a cloud of criticism. Not banned. I was having SpaceJesus flashbacks reading it long after it happened. Chankobun still has positive karma, unlike SpaceJesus, who was well into the red.

222
SteveMcGaziBolaGate  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:20:13pm

I gotta run. I don’t like to start something and not stick around and engage, which happens sometimes. But I figure when I gotta go, it’s only polite to say so.

223
wrenchwench  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:21:56pm

re: #219 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

So yes, I believe that a person can do something that looks racist with a different agenda.

My view is that a person can do something that IS racist by not checking the impact of their actions, no matter their agenda.

224
makeitstop  Sep 15, 2015 • 2:55:34pm

re: #176 HappyWarrior

He’ll be apologizing before Happy Hour.

Or after, in which case it’ll be a ‘teary-eyed’ apology.

225
missliberties  Sep 15, 2015 • 7:01:45pm

re: #57 SteveMcGaziBolaGate

There was more to the Constitution than the 3/5 compromise, which was actually an attempt to limit the power that was stolen from these people. Otherwise, the slave would have counted as a whole person (for the purpose of representation) and the owners would have even more power than they would have if the slaves’ humanity weren’t stolen from them.

Who stole power from who? “Slaves” were essentially insourced labor. Temporary workers who worked cheap imported from other countries, often with the promise that after some period of time, sometimes seven years, they would be free men in this new country.

The debate over the 3/5ths compromise had to do with census counting and how to deal with these supposed temporary laborers. How would these ‘imported workers’ be counted? The crux was a states total counted population determined legislative representation including taxation.

The 3/5th counting issue was important, as this population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years.

This allowed white landowners, as Charles Johnson noted, to have more power in the making of laws.

I do agree with you that in our countries beginnings, it wasn’t necessarily founded on ‘racism’. It was a serious labor shortage that inspired men to sail the seas to find help on their farms, etc. The more help or workers they could import, the bigger their plantations could be and the more money they could make.

226
missliberties  Sep 15, 2015 • 7:07:35pm

I would like to add, that the Dutch who settled in New York, sent out a clarion call to their home country, begging more people to sail the seas to America, because they desperately needed workers for their factories. In this instance, I don’t think you could call this ‘slave trade’. It was part of a mass immigration from Europe in the 17th century which did not result in ‘racism’.

227
Decider  Sep 15, 2015 • 8:06:04pm

Breitbart is much more racist than Stormfront. It is simply amazing that site is considered “mainstream conservative”. It is simply unbelievable.

228
steve_davis  Sep 16, 2015 • 6:14:58am

re: #14 aagcobb

Who wants a bucket of food when you can have tender, succulent baby? Get in mah belly!

I have the ribs from the back of a baby in my fridge as I write, waiting for the time later today when they can, too, go into my belly contraption.

229
steve_davis  Sep 16, 2015 • 6:23:21am

re: #73 HappyWarrior

Yeah terrible. And the Asian Exclusionary Acts. Hey thanks for making it take half the time to get from New York to San Francisco but get the fuck outta my country now. Sigh and I am ashamed to say that a lot of the worst bigotry directed at the Chinese immigrant laborers came from other immigrants.

it’s always that way. immigrant labor is always bottom-feeder labor, which means there’s tremendous pressure on a group that controls the labor initially to not let the new group into the playing field. I’m a resident of South Carolina. Almost this entire state’s history is bound up in rich planters race baiting and keeping poor whites in check by threatening them with the possibility of blacks taking their jobs.


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