Friday Night Jam: Darwin Deez, “The Mess She Made”

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Money Face

Big ups to the insane depth of field we needed on this one. f/22 all the way.

Director- Oscar Hudson // oscarhudsonfilm.com
Producer- Aaron Z. Willson
Production Company- Bad // bad.cl
Director of Photography- Ruben Woodin-Dechamps // rwdfilm.com
Art Director- Oliver Hogan // oliverhogan.com
Editor- Oscar Hudson
Production Manager- Callum Harrison
1st Assistant Director- Aaron Z. Willson
Gaffer- Leo Oleskar
Spark- Merry Colchester
1st Assistant Camera- Spike Morris
Camera Trainee- Robin Niedojadlo
Art Department Assistant- Luke Moran-Morris
Hair & Make-up Artist- Emma Borley
Colourist- Toby Tomkins- Cheat // cheatit.co
Runner- Reece Grant

Label- Lucky Number Music- Stephen Richards // luckynumbermusic.com
Director’s Rep- OB Management- Sam Davey & Kim Jarrett // obmanagement.co.uk

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336 comments
1
teleskiguy  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:28:06pm
2
Charles Johnson  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:32:29pm
3
KingKenrod  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:33:37pm

Many twitter users are praising France24’s English language coverage as vastly superior to ridiculous US coverage, they have a live stream:

france24.com

4
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:34:30pm

Brilliant.

5
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:38:16pm

I keep thinking of Stings song “This War”. He wrote it about Iraq but it seems ever prescient these days:

You’ve got the mouth of a she wolf
Inside the mask of an innocent lamb
You say your heart is all compassion
But there’s just a flat line on your cardiogram

Yet you always made a profit baby
If it was a famine or a feast

Yes, I’m the soul of indiscretion,
I was cursed with x-ray vision,
I could see right through all the lies you told,
When you smiled for the television

And you can see the coming battle
You pray the drums will never cease
And you may win this war that’s coming
But would you tolerate the peace?

6
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:39:29pm

Gator game 9am my time tomorrow. Nighty!

7
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:39:46pm

re: #3 KingKenrod

Many twitter users are praising France24’s English language coverage as vastly superior to ridiculous US coverage, they have a live stream:

france24.com

Not surprising. U.S. coverage is really off the rails these days. When my wife first came to Canada she was impresssed by how good the newscasts were.

8
KingKenrod  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:41:27pm

Great song, I haven’t heard these guys before.

9
HappyWarrior  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:43:16pm

Bed time for this bozo. Peace out.

10
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:43:23pm

You know why ISIS doesn’t attack in the U.S. the way it attacks in Paris or Beirut?

It’s because shooting twenty people to death is an accepted form of public discourse in this country. A half-dozen shootings in one day isn’t called “terrorism”, it’s called “Tuesday”.

/freaking dark thought I just had while brushing my teeth before bed.

11
Jenner7  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:43:51pm

I’m out too, can’t keep my eyes open..

Night.

12
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 13, 2015 • 9:55:11pm

I mean seriously, what are they going to do here that will make a dent? Why would they send somebody across an ocean after waiting months or longer for entry, just to do what? Shoot ten people at a fucking mall? We’ve got home-grown spaz-o-paths that murder children by the dozen and our Presidential candidates say “STUFF HAPPENS”.

Hell, if I was a terrorist, I wouldn’t bother either.

13
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:03:43pm

Just wrote this as some self therapy. Feel free to share.

BONNE NUIT MES AMIS

It’s just another busy night in Paris,
Lights glittering along the streets,
Crowds filling up the theatres,
Music from the cafes fill the sidewalks.

It’s not too hold, not too cold,
Just a perfect autumn night
For a meal and some lovely French wine,
In the shadows of the Eiffel tower.

But then all of a sudden the madness escapes.

What is this?

What happened?

These roads were not meant
To run red with blood.
These canals not meant
For the tears of the wounded.

The young ones cry out
A scream so loud
The whole world can hear.
And then they all weep together.

Once beautiful places in ruins,
Mighty Paree, brought to its knees.
Still great to those who know her.
But never to be the same again.

For us, the survivors.
There is only one course.

We will stand.

We will stand behind this flag.

We will stand behind this city.

We will stand behind our brothers.

The flame of liberty burns bright,

The fire of Man erases the darkness.

14
Belafon  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:03:57pm

re: #12 Pawn of the Oppressor

A suicide bomber in this country would tear it apart. Republicans wouldn’t line up behind Obama the way they expected Democrats to do with Bush. Every Muslim would be a target, and those with guns wouldn’t worry about hitting a few Latinos or blacks.

15
jaunte  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:04:17pm

re: #10 Pawn of the Oppressor

You know why ISIS doesn’t attack in the U.S. the way it attacks in Paris or Beirut?

It’s because shooting twenty people to death is an accepted form of public discourse in this country. A half-dozen shootings in one day isn’t called “terrorism”, it’s called “Tuesday”.

And the strategy for the attackers in Paris is to further separate the Muslim population from the rest of the French, and create more radicalization. Since France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, terrorist attacks there will have a bigger divisive effect than in the U.S.

16
Charles Johnson  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:22:34pm
17
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:33:19pm

Living in the South sure gets interesting sometimes.

While out running errands today I made the following observation:

Confederate flags spotted: 9
American flags spotted: 7

MS seems to be the last bastion of the Confederacy. Not only do we have plenty of flags around, it remains part of the state flag as well.

18
Ian G.  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:36:15pm

About to go to bed. I think we all need a reminder of what’s good in this world, so with that, I give you the Burrowing Owls of Florida.

I’m taking a vacation to Florida in February. Gonna bring the binoculars along for the wildlife, and I can’t wait to go find these guys.

A Few Minutes with the Burrowing Owls

19
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:44:27pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

I am completely fascinated that these people see no irony at all in the fact that they compare President Obama and the Democratic party to Nazis on a daily basis, and almost in the same breath openly advocate a Kristallnacht-level pogrom of all Muslims worldwide.

20
No Depression  Nov 13, 2015 • 10:45:30pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Does having an enlarged amygdala crowd out the part of the brain that controls self-awareness or something? Jesus Christ these people…

21
freetoken  Nov 13, 2015 • 11:44:17pm
22
Jayleia  Nov 13, 2015 • 11:44:35pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Actually, I’ve concluded that a good portion of our conservatives aren’t being manipulated. They know what the terrorists are trying to do, and while they are fundamentally opposed to what the terrorists have for an end goal (Islamist caliphate, or whatever), they see Islamist terrorism as being useful to THEIR end goal (an ‘Murica fuck yeah fascism or Christian theocracy or maybe the End of Days or all of the above).

Yes, this is horribly, terribly cynical. I also have yet to see any evidence that fails to support this horribly, terribly cynical concept.

23
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:04:40am

re: #17 Eclectic Cyborg

Living in the South sure gets interesting sometimes.

While out running errands today I made the following observation:

Confederate flags spotted: 9
American flags spotted: 7

MS seems to be the last bastion of the Confederacy. Not only do we have plenty of flags around, it remains part of the state flag as well.

Leave no war unfinished.
Leave no peace unrestored.

The Civil War and Iraq are both examples of not following those rules.

24
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:06:43am

Freeperland is having the worst meltdown I have ever seen there, which is saying a lot. Just how bad is it?Freeper honcho Jim Robinson is calling for president Obama to be impeached over the Paris attacks. freerepublic.com

25
freetoken  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:09:44am

re: #22 Jayleia

Our society is large and many people are finding it hard to identify with each other. I strongly suspect that what we see online is a type of dysfunction, of people working out their angst, and there is a lot of angst for those who don’t like change.

It’s easier to identify with someone once we have categorized them in our minds. Us vs. Them is an easy way to categorize other people, even if in reality the difference between Us and Them is much greyer than that.

Some of what we see, among the war-mongering crowd, may be nothing more than chemical, such as the surge of testosterone men might experience upon winning something like a game.

Still, the ones I worry about are the savvy manipulators, the expert demagogues who know how to press peoples’ buttons. Many different agendas can be at play in politics. Selling war is easy when its someone else’s child who is going off to die. It’s been pointed out before that this is the problem with an only-professional military and no drafts.

Violence is a tool - I have no doubt that some terrorists are “true believers” in their cause, but it always seems as if there are organizers and masterminds who know how to take easily influenced young people and turn them into weapons by making them do the ultimate in violence.

Personally - the risk of me dying in a terrorist attack is right down there with dying from a snakebite. So I refuse to let others try to manipulate me into doing the war chants. Vastly more people have been killed in our wars than in religious extremist terror attacks. Far greater numbers of Americans have been messed up by being wounded veterans for some war than have ever been a victim of a terrorist attack.

However, when people are stirred up into a warmongering mood it is almost impossible to get them to listen to reason.

26
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:12:29am

Gotta love it when a person spends weeks retweeting and/or trying to talk to Milo, Cernovich and various other scumbags, then comes back to LGF as if nothing happened.

27
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:15:20am

Robinson also wants to round up and deport all Muslims who are here on temporary visas and to place all other Muslims in the United States “under suspicion,” as though that were some kind of legal status like a Papal interdict or something.

28
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:17:04am

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

Robinson also wants to round up and deport all Muslims who are here on temporary visas and to place all other Muslims in the United States “under suspicion,” as though that were some kind of legal status like a Papal interdict or something.

You would be obliged to give them the stink-eye. It’s the law.

29
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:19:13am

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

Robinson also wants to round up and deport all Muslims who are here on temporary visas and to place all other Muslims in the United States “under suspicion,” as though that were some kind of legal status like a Papal interdict or something.

Rim Job is a fatuous imbecile with pretty much zero understanding of how the world actually works.

30
teleskiguy  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:22:57am

re: #26 Nyet

Gotta love it when a person spends weeks retweeting and/or trying to talk to Milo, Cernovich and various other scumbags, then comes back to LGF as if nothing happened.

I saw that. Whenever that person stops by I keep my distance. Besides, they’re on thin ice around here as it is, one more outrage and Stinky will do his thing, like he did earlier this evening.

31
freetoken  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:30:33am

More Friday night jamming… as I warm up the holiday music machine, this little tune from last year is a kind of “meta” approach at holiday music and why it is what it is in American society:

All About That Bing (Meghan Trainor All About That Bass parody)

32
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:36:48am

So, from a cursory roundup of events around last night’s atrocity in Paris, I’m seeing no one - thus far - has claimed responsibility for it.

Perhaps it was Al Qaeda or some unknown group; if Da’esh were behind it, they’d be crowing by now, shouting from the rooftops. So far, nothing from them, officially at least, and typically they’re pretty quick to take credit for such outrages. Indeed, they revel in it.

33
Jayleia  Nov 14, 2015 • 1:28:33am

re: #30 teleskiguy

Personally, I thought the idea that they were following Cernovich ‘cause of his juicing info instead of the GGer bullshit was several kinds of insulting. Haven’t followed what happened with them on twitter since though.

Although, I am still concerned about their health, after one of the last comments I’d seen from them about eating like, 1 potato in a DAY. I hope they’re eating more…and eating better now.

34
LastYearsMan  Nov 14, 2015 • 2:05:56am

re: #32 Dr Lizardo

So, from a cursory roundup of events around last night’s atrocity in Paris, I’m seeing no one - thus far - has claimed responsibility for it.

I think this is going to be the new norm. Terror cells and extremists have gotten so decentralized, connections are going to be hard to pin down most of the time. It’s always been easier to tear things down than to build, and the Internet has just made the divide more extreme.

35
teleskiguy  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:06:59am
36
freetoken  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:11:43am

re: #35 teleskiguy

But did they really do it, or are they taking credit for it because it’s convenient?

37
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:13:17am

re: #32 Dr Lizardo

So, from a cursory roundup of events around last night’s atrocity in Paris, I’m seeing no one - thus far - has claimed responsibility for it.

No, the one arrested said he was from ISIS.

38
freetoken  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:14:14am

re: #37 Nyet

No, the one arrested said he was from ISIS.

I thought all participants had been killed?

39
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:14:25am

re: #36 freetoken

But did they really do it, or are they taking credit for it because it’s convenient?

That was my logic when I dismissed their claim about the Russian plane.
Look how that played out.

40
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:29:45am

re: #35 teleskiguy

[Embedded content]

re: #37 Nyet

No, the one arrested said he was from ISIS.

OK. I didn’t catch that part about the arrested one.

41
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:30:05am

re: #38 freetoken

I read it at meduza.io with reference to a CNN broadcast.

42
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:43:32am

The idea that ideology isn’t the problem, assholishness is, looks pretty ridiculous when you’re talking about people actually willing to die while carrying out their asshole plans. Surely there must be something more at play when you’re willing to pay the ultimate price?

It’s as ridiculous as saying that the problem with Breivik was that he’s an asshole, thus practically excusing the ideology that drove him to do what he did. And of course this also assumes that ideology can’t make an asshole out of someone who had not been one previously.

43
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:49:15am

re: #42 Nyet

And of course this also assumes that ideology can’t make an asshole out of someone who had not been one previously.

Reminds me of Bill Cosby’s joke in one of his stand-up films (I forgot which one, I think it was Himself)

“I take cocaine because it intensifies my personality, man”

“Yeah…..but what if you’re an asshole?”

44
Bubblehead II  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:53:49am
45
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:56:22am

re: #43 Dr Lizardo

Reminds me of Bill Cosby’s joke in one of his stand-up films (I forgot which one, I think it was Himself)

“I take cocaine because it intensifies my personality, man”

“Yeah…..but what if you’re an asshole?”

That’s a good one. If you have already been an asshole in some ways, certain ideologies will intensify that, and thus cannot be ignored. Here is from Frederick Douglass to illustrate the joke’s point:

gutenberg.org

Bad as all slaveholders are, we seldom meet one destitute of every element of character commanding respect. My master was one of this rare sort. I do not know of one single noble act ever performed by him. The leading trait in his character was meanness; and if there were any other element in his nature, it was made subject to this. He was mean; and, like most other mean men, he lacked the ability to conceal his meanness. Captain Auld was not born a slaveholder. He had been a poor man, master only of a Bay craft. He came into possession of all his slaves by marriage; and of all men, adopted slaveholders are the worst. He was cruel, but cowardly. He commanded without firmness. In the enforcement of his rules, he was at times rigid, and at times lax. At times, he spoke to his slaves with the firmness of Napoleon and the fury of a demon; at other times, he might well be mistaken for an inquirer who had lost his way. He did nothing of himself. He might have passed for a lion, but for his ears. In all things noble which he attempted, his own meanness shone most conspicuous. His airs, words, and actions, were the airs, words, and actions of born slaveholders, and, being assumed, were awkward enough. He was not even a good imitator. He possessed all the disposition to deceive, but wanted the power. Having no resources within himself, he was compelled to be the copyist of many, and being such, he was forever the victim of inconsistency; and of consequence he was an object of contempt, and was held as such even by his slaves. The luxury of having slaves of his own to wait upon him was something new and unprepared for. He was a slaveholder without the ability to hold slaves. He found himself incapable of managing his slaves either by force, fear, or fraud. We seldom called him “master;” we generally called him “Captain Auld,” and were hardly disposed to title him at all. I doubt not that our conduct had much to do with making him appear awkward, and of consequence fretful. Our want of reverence for him must have perplexed him greatly. He wished to have us call him master, but lacked the firmness necessary to command us to do so. His wife used to insist upon our calling him so, but to no purpose. In August, 1832, my master attended a Methodist camp-meeting held in the Bay-side, Talbot county, and there experienced religion. I indulged a faint hope that his conversion would lead him to emancipate his slaves, and that, if he did not do this, it would, at any rate, make him more kind and humane. I was disappointed in both these respects. It neither made him to be humane to his slaves, nor to emancipate them. If it had any effect on his character, it made him more cruel and hateful in all his ways; for I believe him to have been a much worse man after his conversion than before. Prior to his conversion, he relied upon his own depravity to shield and sustain him in his savage barbarity; but after his conversion, he found religious sanction and support for his slaveholding cruelty. He made the greatest pretensions to piety. His house was the house of prayer. He prayed morning, noon, and night. He very soon distinguished himself among his brethren, and was soon made a class-leader and exhorter. His activity in revivals was great, and he proved himself an instrument in the hands of the church in converting many souls. His house was the preachers’ home. They used to take great pleasure in coming there to put up; for while he starved us, he stuffed them. We have had three or four preachers there at a time.

[…]

I have said my master found religious sanction for his cruelty. As an example, I will state one of many facts going to prove the charge. I have seen him tie up a lame young woman, and whip her with a heavy cowskin upon her naked shoulders, causing the warm red blood to drip; and, in justification of the bloody deed, he would quote this passage of Scripture—“He that knoweth his master’s will, and doeth it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

46
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:59:54am

Michele Bachmann showing her true colors again - tweeting a link to a Youtube video hosted by white nationalists.

47
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:11:41am

I suppose the chances of LePen taking power have just increased astronomically.

It should also be noted that the whole situation - the refugees, the war, the rise of the right-wing - benefits Putin.

48
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:13:49am

re: #47 Nyet

I suppose the chances of LePen taking power have just increased astronomically.

It should also be noted that the whole situation - the refugees, the war, the rise of the right-wing - benefits Putin.

Isn’t LePen under some kind of criminal investigation? Last I’d read, I thought she was.

49
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:14:39am

re: #48 Dr Lizardo

Yeah, I saw something about it.

50
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:19:15am

The European right is divided on Putin. E.g. the Polish or Baltic rw are, of course, strongly anti-Putin (and, well, anti-Russian). But the likes of LePen or Orban are Putin’s pals.

More war - more refugees. More refugees - more Putin-sympathizers in power, less united EU, a win for Putin.

51
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:22:58am

re: #44 Bubblehead II

Asshole Judge reverses order to remove child from same sex couple.

Paged.

If your legal reasoning is tight, it does not depend on the popular outcry. So not only is he an asshole, he’s an unprincipled one too.

52
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:34:10am

His reasoning is the anti-thesis of tight though.

In his original order, Johansen said he didn’t believe that would be best for the girl, saying it was his “belief that research has shown children are more emotionally and mentally stable” when raised by heterosexual parents, and that same sex unions have “double” the rate of instability.

The order also says “the emotional problems suffered by children in same sex relationships increase by a factor of four compared to children raised by heterosexual couples.”

Johansen declined to identify or provide specific citations for the research despite requests from attorneys, the order notes.

The last sentence seals it, but let’s ignore it for a moment.

Let’s assume that there is such research and that it is legit. I suppose social ostracism, like the one still suffered by LGBT, might do some violence to family stability and such. So, again, the stats may as well be true - theoretically! - but that doesn’t make the logic correct, unless the judge is also willing to take away babies from minority families that may be under same pressure. If research would indicate that more children suffer in families of a racial, ethnic or religious minority X, that wouldn’t be a reason to take away their children.

That’s why you don’t argue from the stats when it comes to an individual family.

53
Timothy Watson  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:34:59am

re: #51 Nyet

If your legal reasoning is tight, it does not depend on the popular outcry. So not only is he an asshole, he’s an unprincipled one too.

The bad thing, this being Utah, there’s little chance that judge is going to lose his next retention election.

54
Tigger2  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:56:38am

re: #24 Shiplord Kirel

Freeperland is having the worst meltdown I have ever seen there, which is saying a lot. Just how bad is it?Freeper honcho Jim Robinson is calling for president Obama to be impeached over the Paris attacks. freerepublic.com

They sure are some dumb mofos.

55
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 4:57:41am

So I’m reading Eichmann’s memoir Idols, which he wrote in Jerusalem, and which was released in around 2000, and omg, was he a literary wannabe poseur (not to mention a lying CYA skunk). Already in the first pages he speaks almost in the tone of a biblical prophet, who tragically and passively observes “Lebensauslöschungsfelder” (“fields of life obliteration”) from afar.

56
Bird in the Paw  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:02:13am

re: #52 Nyet

That’s why you don’t argue from the stats when it comes to an individual family.

This fallacy is endemic throughout the RW anti-science realm. They do not understand or refuse to understand that trends and prevailing statitistics cannot be applied to individuals. Populations move in herds but the individuals within that population are still individual.

57
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:04:36am

re: #28 Nyet

You would be obliged to give them the stink-eye. It’s the law.

At the very least some Side Eye

58
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:21:25am

‘Morning, Lizards,

I took one look at my Facebook feed and just closed the tab. It’s gonna be one of those days.

Fear makes people insane.

59
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:23:22am

re: #58 makeitstop

Yeah, I just unfollowed a bunch of people. The hell with that shit.

60
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:24:01am

Congratulations?/

61
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:27:29am

re: #60 Nyet

Congratulations?/

Time to move to America. Europe is lost.

No, Milo. You stay where you are, mofo.

62
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:29:20am

...

63
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:29:45am

re: #58 makeitstop

‘Morning, Lizards,

I took one look at my Facebook feed and just closed the tab. It’s gonna be one of those days.

Fear makes people insane.

Yep sigh.

64
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:32:52am

re: #60 Nyet

Congratulations?/

[Embedded content]

But didn’t Obama ruin America and turn into a socialist shariah Hitlersque hellhole? //

65
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:49:23am

re: #14 Belafon

A suicide bomber in this country would tear it apart. Republicans wouldn’t line up behind Obama the way they expected Democrats to do with Bush. Every Muslim would be a target, and those with guns wouldn’t worry about hitting a few Latinos or blacks.

I believe this is true. I’d also warn Sikhs to be extra careful.

66
Teukka  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:51:15am

re: #65 Barefoot Grin

I believe this is true. I’d also warn Sikhs to be extra careful.

I hope I’m not too cynical, but I’m calling for any non-rightie to be extra careful.
*smh*

67
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 5:53:54am

I can’t even deal with Facebook at the moment. Folks who should know better are busy spouting off as though they know exactly what to do in Paris - or worse, blaming refugees who are fleeing from war-torn regions of Africa and the Middle East precisely to escape from the likes of Bashar Assad or ISIL.

Blaming refugees. It’s a common theme. We’ve seen it before. We’ve seen what happens when refugees aren’t taken in. People die. Lots of them. Before WWII, it was Jews trying to escape Germany. During the war, it was Jews trying to escape Europe. They were turned away from the US. Many ended up dead.

This is the legacy that the right wingers want? To be counted with those who refused to assist refugees fleeing the very violence of the same kind as happened in Paris last night?

ISIL isn’t going to be defeated by blocking refugees from coming into the US or Europe or other countries? ISIL wont be defeated by blowing up the Iraqi oil fields supposedly under ISIL control (that was a Trump™ idea). It’ll be defeated when people unite to take on the terror group and create the conditions that prevent the group’s ideology from taking hold.

It isn’t simple. It isn’t easy. And it doesn’t always include dropping bombs, let alone the genocidal rantings of some on the right who would trot out the nuke Mecca, genocidal nonsense of eliminating an entire religious order from existence - Islam.

I weep for those in Paris, worry for the refugees, and I pray that whoever occupies the WH next stands up to the right wing bigotry and hatred.

68
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:02:45am

re: #67 lawhawk

I can’t even deal with Facebook at the moment. Folks who should know better are busy spouting off as though they know exactly what to do in Paris - or worse, blaming refugees who are fleeing from war-torn regions of Africa and the Middle East precisely to escape from the likes of Bashar Assad or ISIL.

Blaming refugees. It’s a common theme. We’ve seen it before. We’ve seen what happens when refugees aren’t taken in. People die. Lots of them. Before WWII, it was Jews trying to escape Germany. During the war, it was Jews trying to escape Europe. They were turned away from the US. Many ended up dead.

This is the legacy that the right wingers want? To be counted with those who refused to assist refugees fleeing the very violence of the same kind as happened in Paris last night?

ISIL isn’t going to be defeated by blocking refugees from coming into the US or Europe or other countries? ISIL wont be defeated by blowing up the Iraqi oil fields supposedly under ISIL control (that was a TrumpTM idea). It’ll be defeated when people unite to take on the terror group and create the conditions that prevent the group’s ideology from taking hold.

It isn’t simple. It isn’t easy. And it doesn’t always include dropping bombs, let alone the genocidal rantings of some on the right who would trot out the nuke Mecca, genocidal nonsense of eliminating an entire religious order from existence - Islam.

I weep for those in Paris, worry for the refugees, and I pray that whoever occupies the WH next stands up to the right wing bigotry and hatred.

Very well said.

69
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:03:15am

So, just saw this:

The French newspaper Libération reports that one of the terrorists who carried out the Bataclan shooting has been confirmed as a French extremist who was known to police.

It also reports that an Egyptian passport was found on one of the attackers the Stade de France, as well as a Syrian passport. Neither man has had their identity confirmed by officials.

The paper’s police and justice correspondent, Willy Le Devin, says police have identified the French national by his fingerprints, and confirmed he was known to police.

theguardian.com

70
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:12:19am

re: #67 lawhawk

It isn’t simple. It isn’t easy. And it doesn’t always include dropping bombs, let alone the genocidal rantings of some on the right who would trot out the nuke Mecca, genocidal nonsense of eliminating an entire religious order from existence - Islam.

An old friend of mine, a pretty well-known record producer and definitely a sharp guy, posted on Facebook last night or this morning that it was ‘time to team up with Putin’ and start the slaughter. Another supposedly smart dude with a fucking man-crush on Putin and fantasies of wholesale slaughter of a people.

The ‘glass parking lot’ crowd has not gone away. If anything, they’re increasing their numbers as these atrocities happen and fear takes greater hold. Fear is the mind-killer and a lot of Americans have been in perpetual pants-pissing mode since 9/11. And attacks like the one in Paris get them all feared up, all over again.

71
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:16:17am

re: #67 lawhawk

I thought the whole Iraq/Afghanistan war was about bombing the hell out of terrorists. Wasn’t that the reasoning given? Fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here, or some such crap. 14 yrs later, and there’s still terrorists. Gee, I wonder why? It can’t be because we didn’t bomb them enough, we’re over a Trillion Dollars into this, that’s a lot of bombs.

I’m not afraid of ISIS. I’m afraid of my neighbors and fellow citizens killing each other with guns every damned day. I’m scared of someone targeting me or my family because we aren’t right wing republicans who wrap ourselves in the flag and the cross. I’m afraid my husband won’t be able to find a job and we’ll lose the life we spent 25 yrs building. I’m worried about the poverty my daughter and her kids live in. I’m afraid of anti choice nutbags blowing up clinics and places they deem to not value life enough for their satisfaction. I’m afraid my son with autism will be hurt or taken advantage of as he learns to be more independent. I’m scared for my own future because my life savings has been wiped out.

So the wingnuts are going to have to excuse me that I’m not pissing my pants over ultra conservative extremists who claim to be sanctioned by Islam. I’ve got bigger things to be scared of. And this is not to minimize last night’s terrorism either, in fact just the opposite. France is also home to Interpol, yes? I’m going to take a wild ass guess and say they may have resources the average police department doesn’t. I’m also going to go out on a limb and say that the average American isn’t knowledgeable enough about this subject to have anything cogent to add to the damned mix either. Playing Call of Duty isn’t combat experience. I’ve lost my patience with people after just a few minutes this morning, I’m unfriending some more people and blocking their numbers from my phone. Fuck them.

72
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:17:59am

re: #70 makeitstop

And then you’ve got raging nutjobs complaining Obama didn’t say Islamic terrorism last night at 5:45PM EST, even as the attacks were still going on. I mean, really? Blood still being spilled, and no one knows what was going on, or whether it was ISIL, another terror group (you know, they have non-Islamic terror groups too), or a lone wolf nutter like the Utoya massacre terrorist.

Never mind that Obama has kept the nation safe from further Islamic terror attacks within the 50 states, and has minimized attacks to US interests overseas. Far fewer attacks and casualties than his predecessor, all while carrying out more attacks against Taliban, ISIL, and other terror groups that threaten the US and its interests. Claims that Obama is weak on terror is just claptrap. Especially after Obama got OBL, the claims ring hollow. Yet, right wingers continue that nonsense. It’s a complete and total disconnection with facts and reality. The right lives in its own bubble, and it magnifies all the terror and fear, ignoring what is actually happening.

73
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:18:50am

And the fallout begins:

Poland has announced it will no longer take refugees via an EU programme, in a deeply controversial statement which linked the crisis to the killings in Paris.

“The European Council’s decisions, which we criticised, on the relocation of refugees and immigrants to all EU countries are part of European law,” European affairs minister Konrad Szymanski wrote on right-leaning website wpolityce.pl.

“After the tragic events of Paris we do not see the political possibility of respecting them,” he said.

Under the EU relocation plan, 160,000 refugees registered in frontline states Greece and Italy were to be relocated around the 28-member bloc, but there has been fierce resistance from several eastern European countries.

theguardian.com

74
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:26:40am
75
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:27:33am

re: #70 makeitstop

it was ‘time to team up with Putin’

I’ve seen a similar sentiment expressed here just a few threads ago (not teaming up, but letting him do his thing in Syria, implying turning the blind eye to his slaughter of the legit opposition to Assad).

76
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:28:08am

Trump = GOP right now. The most insanely bombastic and unqualified of the candidates is the one preferred by the GOP rank and file.

77
Dave In Austin  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:28:48am

re: #74 lawhawk

But Newt said refugees-r-ISIS!!!!!

//

78
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:31:11am

re: #72 lawhawk

Obama was one of the first leaders to suggest the ISIS responsibility for A321, back when Russia was still inclining to a simple technical cause, so these complaints don’t make sense.

79
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:33:16am

ISIS does suck, is scary, but is nowhere near as powerful as, say, the Nazi Germany, so teaming up with tyrants should hardly be among the top decision to be made.

80
Eventual Carrion  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:33:23am

re: #76 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Trump = GOP right now. The most insanely bombastic and unqualified of the candidates is the one preferred by the GOP rank and file.

And to that I say, you go GOP. Did Ben sign a “No independent run” pledge?

81
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:39:08am

re: #80 Eventual Carrion

And to that I say, you go GOP. Did Ben sign a “No independent run” pledge?

Did Trump? I can’t recall whether he did or not.

82
Brian J.  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:39:54am

re: #81 Dr Lizardo

Did Trump? I can’t recall whether he did or not.

He did, but everyone recognizes it as legally and practically worthless.

83
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:40:35am

Milo posts a neo-Nazi video, gets called out, makes excuses:

84
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:40:53am

re: #76 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Trump = GOP right now. The most insanely bombastic and unqualified of the candidates is the one preferred by the GOP rank and file.

I guess complaining about your polls helps.

85
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:41:38am

re: #46 Bill and Opus for 2016!

re: #83 Nyet

Oh wait, it’s the same video Michelle “I llllllluuuuurve Jews and Israel” Bachmann posted.

86
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:41:42am

re: #83 Nyet

Milo posts a neo-Nazi video, gets called out, makes excuses:

[Embedded content]

Nasty antisemitism slips in or maybe fanatical anti-Muslim hate and antisemitism are part of the same rotten ideology of hate.

87
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:43:32am

re: #81 Dr Lizardo

Did Trump? I can’t recall whether he did or not.

He did, with the caveat that he’d sign under the condition that the GOP had to ‘treat him fairly.’

Given The Donald’s thin skin, that’s a loophole that you could fly a private jet through. But I’m coming around to the notion that if Trump scores well in Iowa and maybe an early primary, the GOP will end up stifling their gag reflex and roll with him as the nominee.

We are talking about the party who thought VP Palin was the key to electoral victory here. Craven bastards. They want to win way more than they want a qualified candidate.

88
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:43:35am

re: #85 Nyet

Oh wait, it’s the same video Michelle “I llllllluuuuurve Jews and Israel” Bachmann posted.

If you guys see anyone else notable posting this, post it here. Might merit writing about.

89
Eventual Carrion  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:43:51am

re: #81 Dr Lizardo

Did Trump? I can’t recall whether he did or not.

I thought he said he did sign it.

90
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:44:26am

I found this an interesting discussion of IS and its goals/interests and why it’s difficult to try and figure out what to do.

91
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:45:25am

Morning Lizardim from the clear, cold, and beautiful wild north country. My heart breaks for the City of Paris, as I heard the news via FB last night during a date night with my wife. I haven’t had time to keep up with the latest headlines, but I’m sure I will learn in due course over the day, especially since I am probably going to spend much of it hanging out with youse guys. How go things among the lizardfolk on this gorgeous, sorrowful Saturday?

92
Romantic Heretic  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:45:43am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

As I’ve said many times, “The essence of strategy is to get your opponent to do what you want him to do to his detriment. By that standard the Islamist terrorists have won. They are stronger than ever and we are weaker.”

93
Brian J.  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:47:45am

re: #87 makeitstop

He did, with the caveat that he’d sign under the condition that the GOP had to ‘treat him fairly.’

Given The Donald’s thin skin, that’s a loophole that you could fly a private jet through. But I’m coming around to the notion that if Trump scores well in Iowa and maybe an early primary, the GOP will end up stifling their gag reflex and roll with him as the nominee.

We are talking about the party who thought VP Palin was the key to electoral victory here. Craven bastards. They want to win way more than they want a qualified candidate.

The idea that a qualified candidate makes you more likely to win is obviously foreign to such people.

I think that if Trump looks like winning, the office-holding wing of the party will probably run its own third-party candidate. Plus, as Eventual Carrion notes, Carson hasn’t made any promise that Gawd’n’Jebus aren’t telling him to run third-party.

Best-case scenario: Hillary-Trump-Carson-WarmBody in the general. Hillary wins 45% of the vote and sweeps the Electoral College like no one since George Washington.

94
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:48:30am

re: #90 lawhawk

This is the article by Graeme Wood that got ripped on by quite a few on the liberal-left (e.g. because of his defense of the ( to me, obvious) truthfulness of the statement that ISIS are real Muslims), although I found the criticisms ultimately unconvincing.

95
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 6:56:06am

Has Trump gotten any prominent in GOP endorsements yet?

96
lawhawk  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:00:47am

re: #94 Nyet

The distinction that seems to fall on deaf ears, particularly on the right, is that the IS considers themselves true Muslims, while everyone else who calls themselves Muslims are apostate. That includes other groups we consider terrorists, like Hamas, Hizbullah, or groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and even the Saudi government.

So, while Muslims the world over engage in modernity and are able to reconcile modern life with Islamic law, IS considers all that apostasy and antithetical to their view of Islam.

It’s a significant distinction between AQ and IS too - since OBL and AQ doctrine was much more flexible in this regard.

97
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:01:53am

I long ago weeded out from FB any “friends” with extremist positions. I don’t use FB for debate, and I can slam my head against my desk by reading comments at mediaite or Politico if I want. But today a few who I had thought were more or less rational are indeed calling for the “glass parking lot” and saying “religion of peace, my ass—why don’t the so-called moderates speak up?”

I also have a couple of Muslim friends who regularly post to denounce extremism and Wahhabism. Their comments get many, many “likes” from others (who I assume by their names are Muslim, though I don’t really know).

I hope that Germany can remain sane. I hope that Europe doesn’t turn its back now, as America has done and will do, on the refugees. I’ll admit that I’m not optimistic.

98
Eventual Carrion  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:02:02am

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Has Trump gotten any prominent in GOP endorsements yet?

Old presidents, his money endorses him.

99
Romantic Heretic  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:02:18am

re: #45 Nyet

Douglass’s former owner is a fine example of people adopting a belief system not as a guideline to being a better person but as an excuse to be an asshole to other people.

100
Eric The Fruit Bat  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:02:38am

re: #60 Nyet

He put a voting post as to where he should move to: LA or Texas. Texas is leading.

Sucker.

101
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:02:59am

re: #96 lawhawk

The distinction that seems to fall on deaf ears, particularly on the right, is that the IS considers themselves true Muslims, while everyone else who calls themselves Muslims are apostate. That includes other groups we consider terrorists, like Hamas, Hizbullah, or groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and even the Saudi government.

So, while Muslims the world over engage in modernity and are able to reconcile modern life with Islamic law, IS considers all that apostasy and antithetical to their view of Islam.

It’s a significant distinction between AQ and IS too - since OBL and AQ doctrine was much more flexible in this regard.

It’s actually similar to the fundamentalist view of Christianity. The hardcore right-wing fundamentalists view liberal Christianity as a form of modern heresy and disown them as “not true Christians”. I hate to make the comparison because IS is a terrorist group, but then, we all know there’s probably a fundamentalist Christian terror group coming sometime soon.

102
stpaulbear  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:03:34am

I just signed in to Amazon and they’ve taken down all of the ‘black friday’ stuff at the top of the page and replaced it with a photo of the French flag and the word Solidarité.

103
Brian J.  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:06:49am

re: #101 thedopefishlives

It’s actually similar to the fundamentalist view of Christianity. The hardcore right-wing fundamentalists view liberal Christianity as a form of modern heresy and disown them as “not true Christians”. I hate to make the comparison because IS is a terrorist group, but then, we all know there’s probably a fundamentalist Christian terror group coming sometime soon.

And that’s the biggest problem people have with West’s article. Claiming to be fundamentalist and ascetic while ignoring all the “thou shalt not kill” language in the holy book of your choice does not make you “more” or “a better” or “a purer” Christian or Muslim than those who live their lives without attacking others.

104
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:07:11am

re: #97 Barefoot Grin

Winter is coming and those refugees will freeze. Part of ISIS’s plan?

105
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:09:08am

re: #24 Shiplord Kirel

Freeperland is having the worst meltdown I have ever seen there, which is saying a lot. Just how bad is it?Freeper honcho Jim Robinson is calling for president Obama to be impeached over the Paris attacks. freerepublic.com

My own prediction is that Obama’s “We have them contained.” remark about Daesh (IS) is going to be the new BENGHAZI!!1 online, even though seen in context it was very clearly an honest statement. Wingnuts will be yelling about it for months.

106
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:10:32am

re: #96 lawhawk

It’s nothing new for religious sects to think that only they represent the One True Faith. And those who deny that ISIS are Muslims ironically play into their hands by enabling the discourse of “true and untrue faith” in the first place.

107
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:15:00am

re: #55 Nyet

So I’m reading Eichmann’s memoir Idols, which he wrote in Jerusalem, and which was released in around 2000, and omg, was he a literary wannabe poseur (not to mention a lying CYA skunk). Already in the first pages he speaks almost in the tone of a biblical prophet, who tragically and passively observes “Lebensauslöschungsfelder” (“fields of life obliteration”) from afar.

Hitler wasn’t the only Nazi who though he was an artist when he was really just an asshole.

108
danarchy  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:15:47am

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

My own prediction is that Obama’s “We have them contained.” remark about Daesh (IS) is going to be the new BENGHAZI!!1 online, even though seen in context it was very clearly an honest statement. Wingnuts will be yelling about it for months.

It will be slightly different. Whereas in their minds Benghazi is evidence that the administration lied and doesn’t really love America, the “We have them contained” thing will be used as evidence that the administration is incompetent and has no idea what they are doing, a lot like the JV team thing.

109
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:16:20am

re: #104 Doofus

Winter is coming and those refugees will freeze. Part of ISIS’s plan?

I don’t know. I doubt it’s a plan, but I’m sure they’d shed no tears. Somehow I have in my head the image of the St. Louis being turned away from Havana and then calls for help to Roosevelt going unanswered.

110
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:17:56am

Islamic State issued a statement on the Paris Attacks:

Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State, and that the smell of death will never leave their noses as long as they lead the convoy of the Crusader campaign, and dare to curse our Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and are proud of fighting Islam in France and striking the Muslims in the land of the Caliphate with their planes, which did not help them at all in the streets of Paris and its rotten alleys. This attack is the first of the storm and a warning to those who wish to learn.

111
Brian J.  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:18:47am

re: #109 Barefoot Grin

I don’t know. I doubt it’s a plan, but I’m sure they’d shed no tears. Somehow I have in my head the image of the St. Louis being turned away from Havana and then calls for help to Roosevelt going unanswered.

Exactly right. Mid-November isn’t warm to begin with in most of Europe, especially in mountainous areas like the Balkans, where there have been thousands of refugees encamped or wandering around like some perverse game of Red Rover because no one will take them in.

Putin and Orban and Le Pen and the new Polish government are all doing ISIS’ work. I hope the good leaders of Europe and President Obama point this out.

112
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:18:57am

re: #14 Belafon

A suicide bomber in this country would tear it apart. Republicans wouldn’t line up behind Obama the way they expected Democrats to do with Bush. Every Muslim would be a target, and those with guns wouldn’t worry about hitting a few Latinos or blacks.

Question: What about the black and Latino CCW holders? Because the number of black and Latino people who carry concealed is increasing. Chicago just had its first shooting by a CCW holder where the attacker died (it hasn’t been formally ruled ‘Justified’ yet, but it will be) and the armed citizen was black.

113
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:20:52am

re: #110 Doofus

and this:

Speaking on national television earlier Saturday, President Francois Hollande called Friday’s attacks an “an act of war … prepared and planned from the outside, with accomplices inside.”

114
William Lewis  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:23:28am

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

Question: What about the black and Latino CCW holders? Because the number of black and Latino people who carry concealed is increasing. Chicago just had its first shooting by a CCW holder where the attacker died (it hasn’t been formally ruled ‘Justified’ yet, but it will be) and the armed citizen was black.

I fully expect them to be shot at first because there are a whole lot of wing nut CCW idiots who will assume that any non-white is an armed bad guy. Look at the legally armed citizen IIUC, who was a black church musician, killed by a cop while standing by his broke down vehicle.

115
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:26:50am

If the world blocks the refugees, they will be trapped in a war zone. The inevitable desperation will create more terrorists.

116
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:28:59am

re: #115 Amory Blaine

If the world blocks the refugees, they will be trapped in a war zone. The inevitable desperation will create more terrorists.

BUT THEY’RE ALREADY ALL TERRORISTS SO WHAT DOES IT MATTER?!?!?!

117
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:29:57am

re: #78 Nyet

Obama was one of the first leaders to suggest the ISIS responsibility for A321, back when Russia was still inclining to a simple technical cause, so these complaints don’t make sense.

He did do that, but Barack Obama is still:

1. The bearer of a “Islamic” name.

2. Liberal

3. Black

118
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:30:53am

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Has Trump gotten any prominent in GOP endorsements yet?

None that I know of - and his presence in the race is keeping the GOP Big Dogs from endorsing anyone - witness the Koch brothers’ announcement that they weren’t throwing any money at the presidential race right now.

Trump has got the Money Machine’s gears all gummed up. Everybody’s waiting for him to get out of the way so they can start channeling money to more ‘establishment’ candidates.

Trump and Carson are disrupting how conservative money men normally do business. They’re paralyzed, waiting for the upstarts to fade.

But what if they don’t?

119
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:33:35am

And now, for something completely different:

WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!

Courtesy of Cracked.

120
Great White Snark  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:34:24am

re: #118 makeitstop

They withhold support just maybe throw in for Hilary quietly to protect the corporate powers in governance strongly. Money beats pride and ideology to money men.

121
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:36:34am

re: #115 Amory Blaine

If the world blocks the refugees, they will be trapped in a war zone. The inevitable desperation will create more terrorists.

If the terrorists are over there instead of here, then we can bomb ‘em.

OK, that’s a faux Bushism, but its one I actually agree with. Better 10 Islamists in Hama than 5 in Hamburg.

122
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:36:43am

re: #120 Great White Snark

They withhold support just maybe throw in for Hilary quietly to protect the corporate powers in governance strongly. Money beats pride and ideology to money men.

What a kick in the pants that would be.

123
dholmes32  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:37:20am

re: #65 Barefoot Grin

I believe this is true. I’d also warn Sikhs to be extra careful.

I live in Mesa, AZ, where a local Sikh was gunned down in cold blood at his gas station by a nutbar anti-Muslim fanatic.

124
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:38:09am

re: #118 makeitstop

But what if they don’t?

It’s a good start. :)

125
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:39:54am

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

If the terrorists are over there instead of here, then we can bomb ‘em.

OK, that’s a faux Bushism, but its one I actually agree with. Better 10 Islamists in Hama than 5 in Hamburg.

Downside: people who don’t want to be terrorists will die, either at the hands of IS or the ravages of Winter.

This is a conundrum with potentially tragic consequences no matter how you slice it. And the ‘convenience’ of having all the terrists in one handy location does not outweigh the innocents who are pretty much condemned to death either way.

126
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:44:23am

re: #123 dholmes32

I live in Mesa, AZ, where a local Sikh was gunned down in cold blood at his gas station by a nutbar anti-Muslim fanatic.

The guy actually was nuts in that case, since the Arizona Supreme Court cited his being mentally ill when it commuted his death sentence. The fucker will still never leave prison alive, which is how it should be.

127
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:48:04am

re: #125 makeitstop

Downside: people who don’t want to be terrorists will die, either at the hands of IS or the ravages of Winter.

This is a conundrum with potentially tragic consequences no matter how you slice it. And the ‘convenience’ of having all the terrists in one handy location does not outweigh the innocents who are pretty much condemned to death either way.

That’s tragic, but we have to look out for ourselves first.

128
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:51:10am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

That’s tragic, but we have to look out for ourselves first.

So, fuck ‘em, right?

Come on…..seriously. That’s an inhuman attitude and most unbecoming.

129
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:52:16am

Our own Lidane has been fighting the good fight over in the Mediaite comments.

130
William Lewis  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:52:39am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

That’s tragic, but we have to look out for ourselves first.

I would argue that we do that by caring for them in complete. Without caring for them, we lose ourselves.

131
elizajane  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:53:09am

Message from my family in Paris: everybody is fine. So that’s a relief. Now I can focus on being sorry for all the people not getting that message today.

132
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 7:54:27am

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

The guy actually was nuts in that case, since the Arizona Supreme Court cited his being mentally ill when it commuted his death sentence. The fucker will still never leave prison alive, which is how it should be.

What about the guy who attacked the Sikh church in northern Illinois, or the taxi driver a few weeks ago, or….

133
Dr. Matt  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:04:42am

re: #129 Amory Blaine

Our own Lidane has been fighting the good fight over in the Mediaite comments.

Embedded Image

Mediate is always infested with rwnj parasites.

134
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:05:08am

Milwaukee’s TV cowboy and RWNJ sheriff weighs in.

Sheriff David Clarke: GOP can win presidency by using Paris attack in “politically smart” way

In the past, Clarke has been sharply critical of Democrats who have tried to use mass shootings to push a political agenda, such as gun control legislation.

“Shame on the left, shame on the Democrats for once again exploiting misery and tragedy to pursue a political agenda,” Clarke told Fox News’ Sean Hannity in August after a Virginia shooting left a reporter and cameraman dead. “Shame on the president of the United States to invoke terrorism into this horrific incident that happened in Virginia.”

135
Belafon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:08:06am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

That’s tragic, but we have to look out for ourselves first.

That’s a false division in the same way that the attacks in Paris mean the college students shouldn’t protest.

136
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:08:11am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

That’s tragic, but we have to look out for ourselves first.

No, dude. Just no.

Maybe you’re wired differently than I am, but I can’t just say ‘Welp, those people are going to die, but better them than me.

That’s fucking callous and uncaring. Are you really that guy?

137
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:12:25am
138
Great White Snark  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:14:27am

re: #122 makeitstop

What a kick in the pants that would be.

It’s how a party may die.
Rewrite there.

139
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:14:44am

re: #128 Dr Lizardo

So, fuck ‘em, right?

Come on…..seriously. That’s an inhuman attitude and most unbecoming.

No, I’ll send help but they cannot come here. I know that there will still be fatalities but its as far as I’m willing to go.

140
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:15:25am

re: #128 Dr Lizardo

Maybe we could reason with them.

141
Great White Snark  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:16:22am

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, I’ll send help but they cannot come here. I know that there will still be fatalities but its as far as I’m willing to go.

So those running from Assad or ISIS are unwelcome? History teaches this is unwise.

142
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:17:14am

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, I’ll send help but they cannot come here. I know that there will still be fatalities but its as far as I’m willing to go.

SMH. How the fuck do you live with yourself?

143
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:17:35am

re: #132 Barefoot Grin

And what feeds that “nuts” thing? That paranoia and fear, why, whatever could it be that would provoke such hatred and fear? Hmm. Makes one wonder, doesn’t it?

144
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:20:03am

“…Don’t do what ISIS wants you to do. Don’t be who ISIS wants you to be, and to be to Muslims. Be smarter than they want you to be. All it takes is for you to imagine the average Muslim to be like you, than to be like ISIS. If you can do that, you make a better world, and a more difficult one for groups like ISIS to exist in.”

145
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:20:20am

re: #142 makeitstop

I am sure if we used reason and logic, they wouldn’t put their women in children in harms way.

146
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:22:51am
“…Concrete JDAMs were first used in the 1990s to destroy anti-aircraft guns, radars and missiles that Saddam Hussein placed in residential areas. He believed that the Americans would not attack these weapons, for fear of hurting nearby civilians. But it turned out that a laser, or satellite (JDAM) guided concrete smart bomb could take out the air-defense weapons without hurting nearby civilians.”
strategypage.com
147
Great White Snark  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:23:42am

It’s not that complicated. What we do is identify and deter prevent and if need be punish the terrorists. What we don’t do is assume everyone who shares anything with them like location, ethnicity or religion is also them. Somehow this is beyond so many.

148
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:24:38am

re: #145 Doofus

So what is the answer to stop this then? And no, as we see with our wingnutty right wing neighbors and family members, logic and reason do not work. But neither does bombing the shit out of countries. So what would work? I never hear anything beyond more war and retribution. Something else has to be on the table or this will worsen and never end.

149
William Lewis  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:25:12am

re: #146 jaunte

Harming fewer is probably a better way to phrase that. These munitions are part of the real world, not part of a Tom Clancy novel…

150
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:25:55am

re: #147 Great White Snark

Which means more police and intel work. A LOT more. IMO that’s going to be the key to undermining this mess. It’s not the only tool in the toolbox, but I think it’s one of the most important ones.

151
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:26:30am

re: #142 makeitstop

SMH. How the fuck do you live with yourself?

Because I do that which I think must be done. I cannot understand how it is wise to let in people who grew up frequent with anti-American propaganda, who are under-educated, who have a massive gender problem, and some of whom can and will be radicalized.

What that makes me is what it makes me, and I accept that.

Edited.

152
Dr. Matt  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:26:48am

Coldplay and U2 have cancelled shows too.

153
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:27:06am

re: #141 Great White Snark

So those running from Assad or ISIS are unwelcome? History teaches this is unwise.

This. I was thinking about it last night. How horrible, how desperate would my situation have to be to cause me to abandon my home, my possessions, my job, my country—everything & everyone familiar & comfortable to me—and head for a foreign country (possibly risking the lives of my children) where I don’t speak the language, understand the culture, and where I know a lot of people are going to be hostile to me?

Things would have to be pretty damned horrible—horrible in a way I probably can’t even begin to fathom. Horrible like what happened yesterday in Paris is a regular occurrence.

But fuck ‘em, who cares? Unlike us humans, they put their women & children in harm’s way for the hell of it, so why try to reason with the animals?

154
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:27:57am
155
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:29:22am

re: #145 Doofus

I am sure if we used reason and logic, they wouldn’t put their women in children in harms way.

If we used reason and logic, we’d realize that we’d have to have an attack like the one in Paris every day here to equal the number of people killed by guns because SEKUND MENDMINT!!11!! and do something about the real problem instead of being led around by the nose by bought-and-paid-for media wingnuts.

156
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:29:23am

re: #145 Doofus

I am sure if we used reason and logic, they wouldn’t put their women in children in harms way.

You’re missing the goddamned point here, and I find it pretty fucking offensive.

I’m not talking about ‘reasoning’ with IS. Fuck them. I’m talking about those women and children caught in between countries with no support and no one willing to help them. They will fucking die, and you’re taking shots at me for being concerned about them.

Take your sarcasm somewhere else, I’m in no fucking mood today. Between Dark’s ‘la di da, they’ll die, but it’s not me’ and your bullshit snark, I’m starting to wonder which site I’m on here.

157
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:30:33am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Because I do that which I think must be done. I cannot understand how it is wise to let in people who grew up frequent with anti-American propaganda, who are under-educated, who have a massive gender problem, and some of whom can and will be radicalized.

What that makes me is what it makes me, and I accept that.

Syrians are NOT under-educated:

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 86.4%
male: 91.7%
female: 81% (2015 est.)

cia.gov

158
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:30:56am

I also have to think blocking refugees will strengthen ISIS position. “See. The west has abandoned you. There is nowhere for you to go.” Terrifying.

159
Eric The Fruit Bat  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:30:57am

Let’s start a KickStarter to charter an Airbus A380 for all the chickenhawks/101st Chairborne who want to fight ISIS, and kit them out with every weapon imaginable, and fly them over there so they can show ISIS our American Exceptionalism first hand.

It’ll be led by Ann Coulter.

160
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:31:06am
161
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:31:20am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Your opinion is not quite untypical, unfortunately.

I would argue however that the US bears quite a lot of responsibility for what is happening, so whether and to what extent it is “wise” should be overshadowed by this consideration.

162
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:31:28am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Because I do that which I think must be done. I cannot understand how it is wise to let in people who grew up frequent with anti-American propaganda, who are under-educated, who have a massive gender problem, and some of whom can and will be radicalized.

What that makes me is what it makes me, and I accept that.

And you assume they’re all like that? All willing dupes, and stupid, and gullible?

The very definition of bigotry, right there. Shame on you.

163
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:32:11am

re: #157 CuriousLurker

Syrians are NOT under-educated:

And as for the anti Americanism, we let people fleeing the Eastern bloc. By letting them in, I’d argue we’d make them pro American and West by showing our collective humanity.

164
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:32:56am

re: #158 Amory Blaine

I also have to think blocking refugees will strengthen ISIS position. “See. The west has abandoned you. There is nowhere for you to go.” Terrifying.

Me too. It’s what they want.

165
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:34:54am

re: #157 CuriousLurker

Absolutely. This could be a concern with other countries, but not with Syria. Many refugees are educated *and* used to be well-off. Which should be a bonus in the “cold rational” calculations, but you still get “but they have smartphones!” nonsense.

166
Great White Snark  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:35:07am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Because I do that which I think must be done. I cannot understand how it is wise to let in people who grew up frequent with anti-American propaganda, who are under-educated, who have a massive gender problem, and some of whom can and will be radicalized.

You know some of us that grew up right here fit that description more than a tiny bit? Oathkeepers.

167
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:35:37am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

And as for the anti Americanism, we let people fleeing the Eastern bloc. By letting them in, I’d argue we’d make them pro American and West by showing our collective humanity.

It worked for the Somali refugees who settled here in the wild north country. I will grant that some of them did radicalize and go overseas to join terror cells, but I don’t think anyone is expecting 100% of migrants from terrorist-prone regions (the Balkans and the Middle East) to be perfectly behaved citizens.

168
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:36:09am

Fact is we have an obligation via years of our involvement and promoting ourselves as a global superpower. We don’t get to pick and choose like that.

169
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:36:46am

re: #143 A Mom Anon

And what feeds that “nuts” thing? That paranoia and fear, why, whatever could it be that would provoke such hatred and fear? Hmm. Makes one wonder, doesn’t it?

Yes to this and to Nyet’s remark about American culpability. Our long history of looking at every problem as a nail sticking out has a lot to do with the contours of the world today.

170
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:36:53am

Well, my unfriending and phone blocking is done. For now. And I swear, all these assholes have teenagers and some have little grandkids. I hope that those young people turn away from the hate in their families and befriend a diverse group of people from many faiths and ethnic backgrounds. I see a couple have, and distanced themselves from parents and other family members. Good. The only way hate can keep manifesting is if it’s learned. On all sides.

171
William Lewis  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:36:54am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

DF can I recommend you reread the last bits of Matthew 25 and also James 2 again? Justice is love and is when people are fed, warmed & clothed, not when they are ignored.

172
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:37:05am

re: #147 Great White Snark

It’s not that complicated. What we do is identify and deter prevent and if need be punish the terrorists. What we don’t do is assume everyone who shares anything with them like location, ethnicity or religion is also them. Somehow this is beyond so many.

Exactly, because that assumption is the exact same logic the terrorists use: “Your soldiers kill us & ours? Then we’ll come over and kill your people. Doesn’t really matter which ones—they’re all guilty.”

173
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:37:57am

re: #145 Doofus

I am sure if we used reason and logic, they wouldn’t put their women in children in harms way.

S_S, I like you but that kind of sarcasm just ticks folks off. The way those fucks hide behind civilians is something we have to deal with but we ought not to kill said civilians if it can be decently avoided.

Decently avoided means that not shooting would not put greater numbers of innocents at risk later, such as going after someone who coordinates suicide bombings. Killing that man might justify killing other occupants of a car to prevent deaths from bomb attacks later.

The only other exception are for certain kinds of sites that by their nature are military and which the enemy bears the blame for any onsite civilian deaths. A facility used to manufacture artillery rockets, for example, is liable to destruction without warning and any workers who die within are on the enemy according to the laws of war, though we are obligated to not run up the body count by attacking when notable numbers of people who don’t work at that facility are there.

174
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:38:50am

re: #172 CuriousLurker

I wish I could upding that like a billion times. All hatred does is feed more hatred. Retribution accomplishes NOTHING but misery.

175
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:40:00am

re: #157 CuriousLurker

Syrians are NOT under-educated:

Thank you for that, post has been edited to cross out ‘under-educated’.

176
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:42:16am

I’m gonna go pet my dog or re-string a guitar or something, or I’ll end up saying something I’ll regret.

Like I said, it’s gonna be one of those days. Catch you guys later.

177
Doofus  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:43:03am

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

How do you use reason and logic with someone who willingly and knowingly puts women and children in harms way? How do you communicate with a group of people that just murdered 125 civilians in cold blood, and possibly many more refugees through disease, exposure and starvation who will now no longer be welcomed in host countries?

178
Joe Bacon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:43:03am

re: #76 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Trump = GOP right now. The most insanely bombastic and unqualified of the candidates is the one preferred by the GOP rank and file.

After seeing all the hate running wild on the net yesterday and today and seeing the result of the latest tracking polls, there is now no doubt in my mind that Trump will get the GOP nomination.

179
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:48:14am

re: #177 Doofus

Why do you keep throwing up that use “reason and logic” with ISIS strawman?

180
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:49:38am

re: #177 Doofus

How do you use reason and logic with someone who willingly and knowingly puts women and children in harms way? How do you communicate with a group of people that just murdered 125 civilians in cold blood, and possibly many more refugees through disease, exposure and starvation who will now no longer be welcomed in host countries?

You don’t, you blow the scum to Hell. But you don’t kill people who don’t deserve to die along with them if such deaths can be avoided.

181
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:50:18am

re: #178 Joe Bacon

We’re still a year out though. While I agree that any kind of hateful thing seems to give him a bump up, I don’t think he has the stamina to throw himself completely into a serious campaign.

182
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:50:21am

re: #179 jaunte

Why do you keep throwing up that use “reason and logic” with ISIS strawman?

Yeah, I haven’t seen any such comment. It’s weak bullshit.

183
calochortus  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:50:54am

re: #172 CuriousLurker

Exactly, because that assumption is the exact same logic the terrorists use: “Your soldiers kill us & ours? Then we’ll come over and kill your people. Doesn’t really matter which ones—they’re all guilty.”

And then it becomes self-perpetuating. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read about interviews with violent groups, from inner city gang members to primitive tribal people who say something along the lines of “We’d love to give up the killing, but we can’t trust those guys over there so we have to keep it up.” It is easy to escalate violence, not so easy to dial it back without confidence that someone will oversee the peace.

184
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:52:08am

From Nashville Scene yesterday:

Nashvillian Drummer Julian Dorio Touring With EODM, Is Reportedly Safe After Paris Attacks

Nashville drummer Julian Dorio was playing with Eagles of Death Metal Friday night at Bataclan Hall in Paris as terrorists attacked the venue, killing dozens and taking up to 100 more hostage. Dorio is best known as a member of Athens, Ga., transplants The Whigs and is currently the touring drummer for EODM.

Dorio’s mother, Mary Lou Dorio, told The Washington Post her son and other EODM members escaped the concert hall when the attack began. The fate of the band’s crew, however, is uncertain.

185
jaunte  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:52:16am

re: #182 CuriousLurker

It’s a complicated situation when we and our allies have to make war on ISIS, deny them territory, protect refugees, and prevent actions that play into their recruitment strategy. That isn’t a case of having to “reason with ISIS.”

186
William Lewis  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:52:35am

re: #180 Dark_Falcon

And you don’t kill them by leaving them to die when they can - and should and must - be taken in. We need to wake the fuck up and stop pretending the St Louis was a good thing.

187
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:53:27am

re: #183 calochortus

And then it becomes self-perpetuating. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read about interviews with violent groups, from inner city gang members to primitive tribal people who say something along the lines of “We’d love to give up the killing, but we can’t trust those guys over there so we have to keep it up.” It is easy to escalate violence, not so easy to dial it back without confidence that someone will oversee the peace.

Indeed. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict immediately come to mind.

188
calochortus  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:55:12am

I’m going to repost this from last night, because I think it is relevant, what with Islamophobes out there spewing nonsense:

I’ve been thinking about the idiots who think all Muslims are responsible for the fanatics. It seems obvious that the largest and most frequent terrorists attacks are in fact currently perpetrated by Muslims. This appears to be useful information, but in reality it is not. What can you do with this information that will ameliorate the situation? Taking revenge on innocent Muslims will only inflame anger, and is unfair to the aforementioned innocent people, as will treating all Muslims as suspects.

If people can’t see that, they might try this exercise in preventative criminology. There is actually a genetic marker that shared by the vast majority of violent criminals in this country. What should we do about those found to have that marker who have not yet offended? Lock them up just in case? Monitor them? Take away certain rights and privileges?

For those of you who haven’t figured the last item out yet, we call that genetic marker the Y chromosome.

189
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:56:40am

re: #42 Nyet

The idea that ideology isn’t the problem, assholishness is, looks pretty ridiculous when you’re talking about people actually willing to die while carrying out their asshole plans. Surely there must be something more at play when you’re willing to pay the ultimate price?

It’s as ridiculous as saying that the problem with Breivik was that he’s an asshole, thus practically excusing the ideology that drove him to do what he did. And of course this also assumes that ideology can’t make an asshole out of someone who had not been one previously.

So, let me see if I understand you - you say it’s not assholishness, it’s ideology, then talk about two polar opposite ideologies as the problem, both leading to mass murder? You have murderous extremists espousing diametrically opposed ideologies. So is the problem the ideologies or the extremists?

Did you consider that those inclined to mass murder may be attracted to the extreme ideologies that give them an excuse? Plenty of mass shooters kill a lot of people with no coherent ideology, “actually willing to die while carrying out their asshole plans.”

I’d suggest that the basic ideology, whether religious, economic, or political, is not the problem, but rather the kind of person who takes any ideology to such an extreme that killing opponents of that ideology is desirable. And I’d suggest the problem is the extremists, not the basic ideology, that it’s they kind of person they are, and they’d find an excuse in whatever ideology they follow.

190
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:58:21am

re: #185 jaunte

Yeah, too often people don’t want to deal with complicated situations—it’s too much work. They want overly simplified solutions to complex problems and are never prepared for the consequences. It seems some people have learned nothing since 9/11.

191
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:58:41am

re: #189 Blind Frog Belly White

OK, so anti-Muslim ideology doesn’t bear any blame for what Breivik did, gotcha./

192
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 8:59:04am
193
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:01:22am

re: #192 wrenchwench

Yeah Islamic State isn’t Islamic. There’s pretzel logic for you I was talking about above.

194
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:02:29am

re: #186 William Lewis

And you don’t kill them by leaving them to die when they can - and should and must - be taken in. We need to wake the fuck up and stop pretending the St Louis was a good thing.

The Steam Ship St. Louis wasn’t a good thing, but it was the same thing as this, either. There weren’t people on the S.S. St. Louis who wanted to destroy America, and some Arab refugees do come in hating western nations and they often don’t lose that hate once they’ve got it.

Note: The ‘Steam Ship’ and ‘S.S.’ are to distinguish the passenger liner of that name from the Brooklyn Class light cruiser of the same name that was building at the time and would fight in WWII.

195
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:03:36am

re: #191 Nyet

OK, so anti-Muslim ideology doesn’t bear any blame for what Breivik did, gotcha./

*rolls eyes*

So you think Breivik would have been a perfectly nice guy if only he hadn’t stumbled across Islamophobia?

Or maybe it’s the people attracted to violence who form the extreme ideologies.

196
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:05:20am

re: #193 Nyet

Yeah Islamic State isn’t Islamic. There’s pretzel logic for you I was talking about above.

It’s about ‘proving’ wingnuts and the far-right wrong. The fear behind such logic is the same that lead Lyndon Johnson and the Warren Commission to downplay Lee Harvey Oswald having been a Communist: That admitting that sort of point would empower the far-right to an intolerable extent.

197
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:06:11am

re: #188 calochortus

I’m going to repost this from last night, because I think it is relevant, what with Islamophobes out there spewing nonsense:

I’ve been thinking about the idiots who think all Muslims are responsible for the fanatics. It seems obvious that the largest and most frequent terrorists attacks are in fact currently perpetrated by Muslims. This appears to be useful information, but in reality it is not. What can you do with this information that will ameliorate the situation? Taking revenge on innocent Muslims will only inflame anger, and is unfair to the aforementioned innocent people, as will treating all Muslims as suspects.

If people can’t see that, they might try this exercise in preventative criminology. There is actually a genetic marker that shared by the vast majority of violent criminals in this country. What should we do about those found to have that marker who have not yet offended? Lock them up just in case? Monitor them? Take away certain rights and privileges?

For those of you who haven’t figured the last item out yet, we call that genetic marker the Y chromosome.

I wold add that largest and most frequent terrorists attacks are in fact currently perpetrated upon Muslims. They suffer the kind of shit that happened in Paris yesterday with much greater frequency & loss of life, but I rarely hear anyone talking about the horrors, the carnage, the poor innocent victims, etc. No one seems to notice or care.

As I said in response to HW last night, “How many innocent Muslims died in terror attacks this week? Do you know? Yeah, neither do I. It doesn’t even register for us most of the time.”

198
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:07:47am

re: #197 CuriousLurker

I wold add that largest and most frequent terrorists attacks are in fact currently perpetrated upon Muslims. They suffer the kind of shit that happened in Paris yesterday with much greater frequency & loss of life, but I rarely hear anyone talking about the horrors, the carnage, the poor innocent victims, etc. No one seems to notice or care.

As I said in response to HW last night, “How many innocent Muslims died in terror attacks this week? Do you know? Yeah, neither do I. It doesn’t even register for us most of the time.”

Shit, didn’t Boko Haram kill 2,500 people in a single day in a single attack earlier this year?

It barely made below the fold on page four in most of the media.

199
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:09:04am

self-deleted for redundancy

200
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:09:43am

re: #198 Dr Lizardo

Shit, didn’t Boko Haram kill 2,500 people in a single day in a single attack earlier this year?

It barely made below the fold on page four in most of the media.

Mass murders in Africa are not seen as major news in North American media markets.

And yes, I do find that a shitty thing.

201
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:11:15am

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

Mass murders in Africa are not seen as major news in North American media markets.

And yes, I do find that a shitty thing.

Yeah, it is shitty. If 2,500 people have been massacred in, let’s say, a suburb of London, or somewhere in Hamburg or perhaps in Prague, good lord almighty, the 24/7 coverage would’ve been incessant, to put it mildly.

202
calochortus  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:11:16am

re: #197 CuriousLurker

I wold add that largest and most frequent terrorists attacks are in fact currently perpetrated upon Muslims. They suffer the kind of shit that happened in Paris yesterday with much greater frequency & loss of life, but I rarely hear anyone talking about the horrors, the carnage, the poor innocent victims, etc. No one seems to notice or care.

As I said in response to HW last night, “How many innocent Muslims died in terror attacks this week? Do you know? Yeah, neither do I. It doesn’t even register for us most of the time.”

QFT

203
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:12:29am

Okay, I’ve had enough for today. I’m gonna go try to enjoy my Saturday by doing something constructive. Later, lizards.

204
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:12:30am

re: #193 Nyet

Yeah Islamic State isn’t Islamic. There’s pretzel logic for you I was talking about above.

Pretzel logic contains two things, pretzels and logic. The mainstream of anything is not synonymous with the fringes of that same thing.

205
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:14:37am

re: #204 wrenchwench

Pretzel logic contains two things, pretzels and logic. The mainstream of anything is not synonymous with the fringes of that same thing.

Let me ask a different question to help illustrate what Sergey is saying: Is Rick Santorum Catholic?

206
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:14:58am

sigh…

207
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:16:05am

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

It’s about ‘proving’ wingnuts and the far-right wrong. The fear behind such logic is the same that lead Lyndon Johnson and the Warren Commission to downplay Lee Harvey Oswald having been a Communist: That admitting that sort of point would empower the far-right to an intolerable extent.

So, did Oswald kill Kennedy because Oswald was a Communist? Or because Oswald was a killer? Hundreds of millions of Communists, none of whom killed Kennedy, or anyone else, nor were inclined to.

208
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:16:10am

Same happens when the more liberal modernist Christians deny Christianity of the Christians they don’t like, like the Westboro folks. “They are bad folks we don’t want to be associated with, plus we don’t agree with their religious interpretations” has never. ever, been a legitimate principle. Luther was not un-Christian, no matter what the whole Church might have said.

The fact is, there were indeed some not-true Christians in history - the Spanish conversos. Whose existence is to be solely blamed on the Christian regimes that forced Jews to convert. That’s what it means to be a false Christian: professing the religion while knowing that the profession is false.

The same holds for Islam and other religions. It doesn’t matter, for example, whether most Sunni scholars think Shias are Muslims or not. Like, their opinion doesn’t ever enter the equation. We can establish that without sectarian definitions.

The appeal to majority remains a fallacy.

209
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:16:55am
210
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:17:02am

Oh, Hell:

16:38

A Greek government minister says the holder of a Syrian passport found at the scene crossed into the European Union through the Greek island of Leros in October.

Deputy public order minister Nikos Toskas, said in a statement:

On the case of the Syrian passport found at the scene of the terrorist attack, we announce that the passport holder passed from Leros on October 3 where he was identified based on EU rules … We do not know if the passport was checked by other countries through which the holder likely passed.

211
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:17:40am

re: #204 wrenchwench

Pretzel logic contains two things, pretzels and logic. The mainstream of anything is not synonymous with the fringes of that same thing.

I wholeheartedly agree. And were that the thesis the authors espouse, I would applaud it. Unfortunately they don’t.

212
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:17:53am

re: #208 Nyet

Okay, so all beliefs are bad, including the belief that all beliefs are bad. That appears to be where you’re going.

213
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:18:37am

re: #207 Blind Frog Belly White

So, did Oswald kill Kennedy because Oswald was a Communist? Or because Oswald was a killer? Hundreds of millions of Communists, none of whom killed Kennedy, or anyone else, nor were inclined to.

Oswald killed Kennedy for the same reason he was a Communist: He was alienated from American society, which led him to embrace anti-Americanism in the form of Communism.

214
calochortus  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:20:01am

I need to go get some stuff done.

BBL

215
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:20:37am

re: #212 Blind Frog Belly White

Okay, so all beliefs are bad, including the belief that all beliefs are bad. That appears to be where you’re going.

Um, no.

216
Dark_Falcon  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:21:02am

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

If it turns out one of these assholes actually was a refugee or passed himself off as one, then the situation is going to get very much uglier very quickly.

217
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:21:19am

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

Oswald killed Kennedy for the same reason he was a Communist: He was alienated from American society, which led him to embrace anti-Americanism in the form of Communism.

Now we’re getting somewhere.

218
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:21:32am

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

Let me ask a different question to help illustrate what Sergey is saying: Is Rick Santorum Catholic?

If he says he is and ‘The Catholics’ don’t say, ‘No he isn’t.’ Catholicism is much more centralized and hierarchical than many religions.

219
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:21:46am

re: #215 Nyet

Um, no.

You don’t seem to be making a coherent point.

220
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:22:29am

RETWAT if you agree:

221
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:23:32am

re: #195 Blind Frog Belly White

*rolls eyes*

So you think Breivik would have been a perfectly nice guy if only he hadn’t stumbled across Islamophobia?

Or maybe it’s the people attracted to violence who form the extreme ideologies.

Or maybe he wouldn’t have killed anyone and would have been a common douchebag.

That you want to absolve the anti-Muslim industry of responsibility is really something.

222
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:23:43am

re: #220 De Kolta Chair

Retwat if you agree:

[Embedded content]

Because workers are only supply, presumably. They don’t buy anything.

223
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:23:48am

re: #211 Nyet

I wholeheartedly agree. And were that the thesis the authors espouse, I would applaud it. Unfortunately they don’t.

I thought they did. They even said Rand Paul did, too.

224
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:24:25am

re: #221 Nyet

Or maybe he wouldn’t have killed anyone and would have been a common douchebag.

That you want to absolve the anti-Muslim industry of responsibility is really something.

If that’s what you take from what I’m saying, you have a problem with comprehension.

225
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:27:56am

re: #218 wrenchwench

If he says he is and ‘The Catholics’ don’t say, ‘No he isn’t.’ Catholicism is much more centralized and hierarchical than many religions.

Yes and no.

Yes, it does depend on centralization, that’s one important factor.

Thing is, there are traditionalist Catholics who no longer recognize Rome. E.g. Gibson is, undoubtedly, a Catholic. Just a different kind. He’s just not a member of RCC.

Moreover, whatever his relations with the official Church, Santorum is a Christian. A real Christian.

226
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:28:48am

re: #224 Blind Frog Belly White

Someone who wrote #212 should be silent on matters of comprehension.

227
GlutenFreeJesus  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:29:58am
I’m neither republican or democrat but fuck Obama and fuck Muslims. CLOSE OUR BORDERS to those scum!

An example of my FB so far today. And it’s not even noon.

228
ObserverArt  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:30:27am

I notice something when I read these words posted by Dark_Falcon.

Because I do that which I think must be done. I cannot understand how it is wise to let in people who grew up frequent with anti-American propaganda, who are under-educated, who have a massive gender problem, and some of whom can and will be radicalized.

The first sentence could be many of this forum pleading with Dark to do what is right and must be done to get away from the RWNJs/Tea Party types in his favorite party.

The rest of the paragraph very easily could be an explanation for many of the RWNJs. Often they are in a way growing up with anti-American propaganda, are under-educated, have massive problems with gender issues and some of who can and will be come radicalized and join militias, and Oath Keepers and other wacky conservative groups like that.

Which again proves that there really is no difference in the thinking between some of ‘us’ and some of ‘them’ as many bad traits are shared.

And truthfully it is a bit disconcerting that Dark understands the definition but in some degree defined himself in that thinking.

Saturday mornings appear to be when Dark lets it all hang out. I hope he really thinks this stuff through. The lines are thin.

229
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:32:45am

re: #223 wrenchwench

I thought they did. They even said Rand Paul did, too.

It’s on his hat It starts with their title. And it doesn’t get better in the main text.

“It doesn’t represent all Muslims” - A+
“It’s not Islamic” - F

230
ObserverArt  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:35:12am

re: #171 William Lewis

DF can I recommend you reread the last bits of Matthew 25 and also James 2 again? Justice is love and is when people are fed, warmed & clothed, not when they are ignored.

(William, I hope you understand my intent…)

“Get your goddamn Bible off this battlefield. This is war and that crap has no place when we are hunting down our enemy. God’ll sort this shit out later, and he isn’t here right now to help us kill these sonsabitches!!! Yewgotme!!!”

///

231
sagehen  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:35:14am

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, I’ll send help but they cannot come here. I know that there will still be fatalities but its as far as I’m willing to go.

More of that short-term thinking, with no concern for long-term consequences.

The populations we turn our backs on, because “not our problem, deal with it yourselves”… 20 years from now you’ll be baffled why they don’t give a shit what we think about that year’s moral imperative, why they don’t want to follow our lead or cooperate in any way,

232
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:36:30am

KKK is Christian.
Westboro Baptists are Christian.
Apartheid govt was Christian.
The Southern slaveholders were mostly Christian.
Inquisition was Christian.
The witch-burners were Christian.

Deal.

233
Targetpractice  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:36:59am

re: #220 De Kolta Chair

Retwat if you agree:

[Embedded content]

Well, she’s not totally wrong. The demand for products previously made by “illegals” will remain. The supply will just, as wingnuts moan any time that the minimum wage comes up, will be filled in other ways. They’ll either be offshored, they’ll be automated, or the steps involving “illegals” will be eliminated.

234
Jenner7  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:37:48am

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

“So sorry guys, we can’t let you in. You look like them and we are too afraid to help anyone. My bad.”

235
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:39:14am

re: #232 Nyet

KKK is Christian.
Westboro Baptists are Christian.
Apartheid govt was Christian.
The Southern slaveholders were mostly Christian.
Inquisition was Christian.
The witch-burners were Christian.

Deal.

I think those inside a group get to define that group. Now, who gets to decide who is IN that group? Those already in? Not the ‘new’ approachers?

236
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:43:19am

re: #235 wrenchwench

I think those inside a group get to define that group. Now, who gets to decide who is IN that group? Those already in? Not the ‘new’ approachers?

This leads to Luther et al. not being Christians, Shia or the more liberal Muslims not being Muslim, Reformist Jews not being Jews, splinter Mormon groups not being Mormon, and so on. I.e. not a workable approach.

237
Jenner7  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:43:26am
238
ObserverArt  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:44:41am

re: #176 makeitstop

I’m gonna go pet my dog or re-string a guitar or something, or I’ll end up saying something I’ll regret.

Like I said, it’s gonna be one of those days. Catch you guys later.

I had that day yesterday. And then Paris happened. And trying to jam last night my Vox amp fritzed out on me. It’s modeling amp and it has gone bonkers before. And it was Friday the 13th. I might be able to go down into my studio today and it will fire right up.

Modern problems. But, Paris.

239
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:44:44am

So, every belief IS bad because every belief has someone bad who claims it.

I was right. You aren’t making a coherent point.

240
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:46:02am

re: #239 Blind Frog Belly White

So, every belief IS bad because every belief has someone bad who claims it.

I was right. You aren’t making a coherent point.

No, you’re spouting nonsense. We are not talking about beliefs being good or bad, only about classification.

241
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:47:50am

re: #240 Nyet

No, you’re spouting nonsense. We are not talking about beliefs being good or bad, only about classification.

Then presumably you didn’t mean your #221

242
Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:48:31am

Good afternoon Lizards. Took a walk yesterday afternoon to the far side of the Schuylkill River to see if I could get a decent picture of a cormorant. Had a nice afternoon sun behind me for lighting.

Art Museum and old Waterworks
Gull and sleeping cormorant
Cormorant preening

Took a snap shot of a gull flying by -

Gull aloft

When I had packed up the camera and was walking back someone flew a drone in the area - and at that point scared all the cormorants into the water.

No picture of drone, but here’s a substitute -

243
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:49:26am

re: #236 Nyet

This leads to Luther et al. not being Christians, Shia or the more liberal Muslims not being Muslim, Reformist Jews not being Jews, splinter Mormon groups not being Mormon, and so on. I.e. not a workable approach.

Somebody gets to draw a line somewhere, even if it’s temporary. Otherwise words mean nothing. Mormons have declared FLDS outside of Mormonism, have they not?

244
Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:50:17am

re: #236 Nyet

This leads to Luther et al. not being Christians, Shia or the more liberal Muslims not being Muslim, Reformist Jews not being Jews, splinter Mormon groups not being Mormon, and so on. I.e. not a workable approach.

It’s a spectrum and it gets as fuzzy as defining a species (or a race) as you get close to the edges. And I doubt either internal- or external- defining is going to completely work.

245
Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:52:19am

re: #243 wrenchwench

Somebody gets to draw a line somewhere, even if it’s temporary. Otherwise words mean nothing. Mormons have declared FLDS outside of Mormonism, have they not?

That also gets you to every RWNJ shooter being a “lone wolf”. The line suddenly changes to exclude them.

246
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:52:31am

re: #241 Blind Frog Belly White

Then presumably you didn’t mean your #221

I was not discussing classification with you. The topic we were discussing was influence of ideologies on behavior (or vice versa). A completely unrelated issue to the one of classification. If you can’t keep things straight, maybe don’t debate.

247
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:55:11am

re: #246 Nyet

I was not discussing classification with you. The topic we were discussing was influence of ideologies on behavior (or vice versa). A completely unrelated issue to the one of classification. If you can’t keep things straight, maybe don’t debate.

You speak as if the two are unrelated. They’re not. You’re simultaneously arguing that it’s not the tendency to extremism but rather the ideology that’s the problem, and that you cannot separate the extremists from the group.

248
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:55:58am

Brain break from NYC

249
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 9:58:49am

re: #220 De Kolta Chair

Retwat if you agree:

[Embedded content]

Freudian slip?

//

250
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:00:39am

re: #243 wrenchwench

Somebody gets to draw a line somewhere, even if it’s temporary. Otherwise words mean nothing. Mormons have declared FLDS outside of Mormonism, have they not?

And yet FLDS is still Mormon, just not LDS. Which is why the approach doesn’t work.
—-
Words do mean something. Identify the most fundamental beliefs that separate one religion from another historically, with terms used requiring as little interpretation as possible, and you have your definitions. I’m not saying it’s always easy, and some interpretation is always there (e.g.: we have to use the word “God” in definitions, but what is “God”? Somewhat of a can of worms philosophically, but in practice most people grasp what is being talked about), but it’s a much less subjective and ideological approach than “it is who this particular group says it is”.

251
ObserverArt  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:00:41am

re: #232 Nyet

KKK is Christian.
Westboro Baptists are Christian.
Apartheid govt was Christian.
The Southern slaveholders were mostly Christian.
Inquisition was Christian.
The witch-burners were Christian.

Deal.

And they was all right in the eyes of their Lord!

Amen.

252
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:01:09am

re: #247 Blind Frog Belly White

You speak as if the two are unrelated. They’re not. You’re simultaneously arguing that it’s not the tendency to extremism but rather the ideology that’s the problem, and that you cannot separate the extremists from the group.

It’s a lie though.

253
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:02:12am

re: #249 Amory Blaine

Freudian slip?

//

Quite intentional.

254
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:02:37am

re: #252 Nyet

It’s a lie though.

So, the extremists are part of the group, the group follows the ideology, and the ideology is the problem not the tendency to extremism.

255
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:03:52am

re: #248 De Kolta Chair

Brain break from NYC

[Embedded content]

That’s one of the better mayoral bets over sports. Usually it’s just a local specialty in food. In this case that would be bbq and cold cuts.

256
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:04:02am

re: #229 Nyet

It’s on his hat It starts with their title. And it doesn’t get better in the main text.

“It doesn’t represent all Muslims” - A+
“It’s not Islamic” - F

I came back to point out that the average Joe in the street isn’t going to pedantically parse the logic in such a granular way. For them Islamic = Muslims. Period. This broad categorization is what the neo-fascist nationalists of the far-right use to promote their fear-mongering populist agenda.

Western intellectuals aren’t doing anyone any favors when they write articles that do attempt to finely parse things—the masses don’t care, they want a fast & simple solution to allay their fears and will listen to whoever offers them one (Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, Geller, et al.)

257
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:05:41am

re: #244 Feline Fearless Leader

It’s a spectrum and it gets as fuzzy as defining a species (or a race) as you get close to the edges. And I doubt either internal- or external- defining is going to completely work.

Nobody promised it would be easy. ;)

E.g. Mormons could be thought of as a part of Christianity, or as a religion of its own, standing in relation to Christianity as it itself stood in relation to the 2nd-Temple Judaism. Modern Mormons prefer the former, but their completely new scriptures do not preclude a shot at the latter approach. Same with the Nation of Islam.

258
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:06:13am

No, I don’t agree with Coulter. Eliminating “illegals” from the economy will not raise minimum wage, the owners will just move the goal post like they always do. No, the minimum wage will rise when americans are ready to “ram it down their throats”.

259
makeitstop  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:07:57am

re: #255 HappyWarrior

That’s one of the better mayoral bets over sports. Usually it’s just a local specialty in food. In this case that would be bbq and cold cuts.

KC’s mayor got a NY cheese cake to eat while watching the video.

260
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:08:22am

re: #255 HappyWarrior

That’s one of the better mayoral bets over sports. Usually it’s just a local specialty in food. In this case that would be bbq and cold cuts.

Mmmmm, bbq and cold cuts…

261
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:08:29am

Just ordered Christmas for the fish family. My wallet feels a lot lighter now. So liberating!

262
Dr. Matt  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:08:38am
263
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:08:47am

re: #259 makeitstop

KC’s mayor got a NY cheese cake to eat while watching the video.

Yum.

264
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:09:11am

re: #256 CuriousLurker

I disagree with the approach that certain conclusions should not be reached for political or other reasons.

265
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:09:14am

re: #260 De Kolta Chair

Mmmmm, bbq and cold cuts…

Embedded Image

Yeah I’m craving either right now.

266
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:09:21am

re: #258 Amory Blaine

No, I don’t agree with Coulter. Eliminating “illegals” from the economy will not raise minimum wage, the owners will just move the goal post like they always do. No, the minimum wage will rise when americans are ready to “ram it down their throats”.

Owners: “Hey, this recession means we can lay people off and get the remaining workers, frightened by the layoffs, to work harder for less money! More profits!!”

Same owners, 6 years later: “How come demand for our goods is still low?”

267
Dr. Matt  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:11:31am
268
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:13:07am

re: #254 Blind Frog Belly White

So, the extremists are part of the group, the group follows the ideology, and the ideology is the problem not the tendency to extremism.

Sigh.

ISIS undoubtedly belongs to the group “humans”.

By stating this fact am I blaming all humans for ISIS?

Your set theory is all askew.

Islam is not a single ideology, neither is Christianity. These super-religions are not monoliths.

269
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:13:15am

re: #267 Dr. Matt

Sounds like it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

270
Dr. Matt  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:15:37am

re: #269 Dr Lizardo

Sounds like it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

Indeed. Thank gawd for strict security at all sporting events now.

271
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:16:05am

re: #264 Nyet

I disagree with the approach that certain conclusions should not be reached for political or other reasons.

I didn’t say they shouldn’t be reached for political reasons. I don’t know what “other reasons” you’re referring to. They’re fine for scholarly/intellectual discussion and/or publications, but not so much when written for the masses—like that article earlier this year (can’t remember the guy’s name or the publication). The main takeaway, the part right-wingers glommed onto, was ISIS = Islam = Muslims (not Muslim extremists, regardless of what the author said). It was used politically, regardless of whether or not the author intended it that way.

272
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:17:03am

re: #268 Nyet

Sigh.

ISIS undoubtedly belongs to the group “humans”.

By stating this fact am I blaming all humans for ISIS?

Your set theory is all askew.

Islam is not a single ideology, neither is Christianity. These super-religions are not monoliths.

You’re the guy trying to define the sets as broadly as possible.

273
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:17:32am

Diplomats set plan for political change in Syria

Diplomats set plan for Syrian government, opposition talks, new constitution, elections

Diplomats meeting in Vienna agreed Saturday on a timeline for a political transition in Syria that is aimed at ending the country’s civil war. However, key details, including the status of Syrian President Bashar Assad and a determination of which opposition groups are terrorists, remain unresolved.

At the conclusion of Saturday’s talks, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry announced agreement on a Jan. 1 date for the start of talks between Assad’s government and the opposition. The U.N. special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, is to begin immediate work on determining who should sit at the table.

Within six months, the negotiations between the Syrian sides are to establish “credible, inclusive and nonsectarian” transitional government that would set a schedule for drafting a new constitution, according to a joint statement released by the United Nations on behalf of the 19 parties to the talks.

274
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:18:52am

Re:

275
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:22:01am

re: #270 Dr. Matt

Indeed. Thank gawd for strict security at all sporting events now.

Yeah, big-time kudos to the security personnel for preventing this assclown from entering the stadium.

276
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:22:09am

re: #274 De Kolta Chair

[Embedded content]

Awful yet not surprising.

277
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:22:54am

re: #275 Dr Lizardo

Yeah, big-time kudos to the security personnel for preventing this assclown from entering the stadium.

Yeah. Scary to think about how worse this could have been.

278
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:23:47am

re: #271 CuriousLurker

To simplify: Speak to people according to their understanding. Things said among peers, in private, at work, at a sporting event, a concert, etc. are each expressed differently (or sometimes not at all)—for good reason.

279
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:24:52am

re: #277 HappyWarrior

Yeah. Scary to think about how worse this could have been.

Hell, yes….not only the casualties from an explosive device, but the likely stampede that would’ve almost invariably followed. That would’ve been a major panic situation and when a large crowd of people panic, all hell follows.

280
HappyWarrior  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:25:22am

re: #279 Dr Lizardo

Hell, yes….not only the casualties from an explosive device, but the likely stampede that would’ve almost invariably followed. That would’ve been a major panic situation and when a large crowd of people panic, all hell follows.

Yeah chaos.

281
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:26:56am

re: #256 CuriousLurker

I hate to say this, but a guest on Bill Maher’s show last night had a point. She said that when people bitch about “where are all the moderate Muslims?”, in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, etc. her answer was pretty simple. In jail or dead. If you have no resources and are barely hanging on, how in the hell can you fight back against people who will just crush you like a bug? I don’t think Americans really truly understand the depth and level of oppression in some countries. We’re talking about some places where you have to walk for miles to find water FFS. Let alone months walking if you want to get the hell away from that mess.People are just trying to survive war, famine and oppression and get through another day, how in the hell can they fight armies with nothing? And if they are forced to stay, which is what ISIS, Da’esh and the others want, then it’s only a matter of time before it’s join or die anyway. This solves nothing.

I still think it’s going to require serious amounts of intel and what amounts to good old fashioned detective type work to infiltrate these groups or find out where they are and find out wtf they’re doing. I think a lot more shit could be stopped in it’s tracks this way. One place to start would be the online tools they use to recruit. The cops do this shit all the time with human trafficking and pedophiles, they lure people into thinking they’re getting something they aren’t. I know it’s not totally that simple, but if teenagers can find their way into these groups from Europe and the US then the intel pros should be able to do something too.

282
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:27:23am

FedEx is LATE, dammit. They’re usually here by now and I need that hand cart.

283
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:27:30am
284
Alephnaught  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:28:41am

re: #277 HappyWarrior

Yeah. Scary to think about how worse this could have been.

Was the security more than usual this time because President Hollande was in the stadium to watch the game? If so, this could have been very much worse.

285
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:30:24am

I’m amazed and surprised by the number of FB friends on my feed who are adding the French flag filter to their profile picture. I imagine that it’s because wingnuts will gladly condemn a terrorist attack, as long as it’s committed by radical Muslim terrorists. White guys shooting up theaters, though? Not a chance.

286
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:30:34am

re: #280 HappyWarrior

Yeah chaos.

Having been caught in a relatively benign stampede once (it was at a Berlin mosque where they were displaying a relic that was purported to be a hair of Muhammad [saas]) it’s disconcerting, to say the least. In my case, thankfully, the crowd was friendly, not panicky and the worshippers were all in a good mood, nothing bad happened. But when you’re in the middle of a densely-packed crowd, and that crowd moves forward simultaneously, yeah, for a second or two I was thinking, “Oh, shit”. But then the crowd stopped moving and an orderly line quickly established itself.

287
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:30:56am

re: #272 Blind Frog Belly White

You’re the guy trying to define the sets as broadly as possible.

I’m trying to define them in such a coherent way so as not to reach absurd conclusions when looking at all religions. So that we don’t suddenly end up with reformers (e.g. Protestants) and/or liberals not being true Xs (the “religious tradition” approach), most Christians not being Christians (the “follows a particular interpretation of the founder’s words” approach), as well as purely subjective, whimsical “no true Scotsman” approaches boiling down to “he’s a bad guy, therefore…”.

But, here’s the thing, I don’t accept the charge of defining too broadly, but even if it were so, it would be just an opinion. Your distortions of what I’m saying aren’t a matter of opinion.

288
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:32:32am

re: #278 CuriousLurker

To simplify: Speak to people according to their understanding. Things said among peers, in private, at work, at a sporting event, concert, etc. are each expressed differently (or sometimes not at all)—for good reason.

Gotcha. In public one certainly should add a disclaimer that one is not ascribing the deeds of a few to all.

289
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:32:41am

re: #287 Nyet

I’m trying to define them in such a coherent way so as not to reach absurd conclusions when looking at all religions. So that we don’t suddenly end up with reformers (e.g. Protestants) and/or liberals not being true Xs (the “religious tradition” approach), most Christians not being Christians (the “follows a particular interpretation of the founder’s words” approach), as well as purely subjective, whimsical “no true Scotsman” approaches boiling down to “he’s a bad guy, therefore…”.

But, here’s the thing, I don’t accept the charge of defining too broadly, but even if it were so, it would be just an opinion. Your distortions of what I’m saying aren’t a matter of opinion.

I’m not distorting what you’re saying, I’m distilling it. If it’s not what you’re saying, you need to be more clear.

290
CuriousLurker  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:35:25am

re: #283 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Thanks. Yesterday afternoon when I got on Twitter and found out what was going on, I started seeing some Muslims using a hashtag that went something along the lines of “I’m a Muslim and I #CondemnTheParisAttacks. Pls RT”.

Screw that. I don’t need to apologize for something I’m not responsible for or try to reassure a bunch of strangers on Twitter that I disapprove of mass murder. WTF? I don’t know of any other groups that are called on to do that every time something happens. Besides, it’ll never be good enough for some—they’ll just say that it wasn’t said quickly enough, it’s not sincere (taqiyyah), etc.

291
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:37:22am

sigh…

292
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:37:57am

re: #291 Backwoods_Sleuth

RE: Governor Christie: Who the hell would want to attack New Jersey?///

293
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:38:09am

re: #282 CuriousLurker

FedEx is LATE, dammit. They’re usually here by now and I need that hand cart.

Saturday delivery! WAH! I haven’t had that in the last 20 years!

294
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:41:39am

re: #292 thedopefishlives

And like all the governors on the coasts or in states with high priority targets wouldn’t be dealing with Homeland in the first place. Grandstanding is sooooo helpful at times like this. Fucking politicians. Have a cup of STFU, sit down and then pour a second cup unless you have something useful to add. Assholes, the whole lot of them.

295
De Kolta Chair  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:42:05am

re: #292 thedopefishlives

RE: Governor Christie: Who the hell would want to attack New Jersey?///

Charles Cornwallis?

296
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:42:52am

re: #295 De Kolta Chair

Charles Cornwallis?
Embedded Image

And he lost the war. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

297
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:42:52am

re: #292 thedopefishlives

RE: Governor Christie: Who the hell would want to attack New Jersey?///

Someone’s out to whack Toxie over in Tromaville?

298
A Mom Anon  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:43:48am

BBL, dog bath, leaf raking and making a pot of soup are on my to do list. Be Excellent to One Another Lizards.

299
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:43:55am

Doctors urge feds to nix mergers between giant health insurers

The American Medical Association, the largest association of doctors in the US, wants federal antitrust enforcers to smack down two proposed mergers between big health insurance companies: the combining of Aetna and Humana, and of Anthem and Cigna. The two mergers, if approved, would shrink the number of major national health insurers from five to three.

In a 17-page letter sent to the Department of Justice Antitrust Division on Wednesday, AMA CEO James Madara wrote that the association studied the planned mergers and concluded that they would likely hamper access, affordability, and quality of patient care, plus make it harder for physicians to negotiate competitive insurer contract terms.

“A growing body of peer-reviewed literature suggests that greater health insurer consolidation leads to price increases, as opposed to greater efficiency or lower health care costs,” Madara wrote.

300
wrenchwench  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:46:10am

re: #282 CuriousLurker

FedEx is LATE, dammit. They’re usually here by now and I need that hand cart.

Not to diminish your pain (in my previous comment). I’m on a training route, and have often waited long past ‘the usual time’.

301
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:46:28am

re: #299 Amory Blaine

Doctors urge feds to nix mergers between giant health insurers

You mean the AMA is right about something? It truly is the end of the world!

302
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:48:16am

re: #289 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m not distorting what you’re saying, I’m distilling it

In this case your distillation was distortion. Let’s revisit what you wrote.

Okay, so all beliefs are bad, including the belief that all beliefs are bad. That appears to be where you’re going.

So, every belief IS bad because every belief has someone bad who claims it.

you cannot separate the extremists from the group.

So, the extremists are part of the group, the group follows the ideology, and the ideology is the problem not the tendency to extremism.

None of this is based on what I wrote. I never wrote that beliefs are bad because someone who holds that belief is bad. Only that some beliefs are bad and can influence people in a bad way. What particular beliefs those are has remained undiscussed (with exception of the anti-Muslim industry).

I never wrote that extremists should not be distinguished from the group as a whole. Only that them being extremists does not by itself exclude them from the group. I was very explicit that extremists are not necessarily representative of the group.

. If it’s not what you’re saying, you need to be more clear.

Sorry, the problem is on your end.

303
Barefoot Grin  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:49:27am

Ex-CIA director Wolsey says ‘Snowden made it a lot harder to get intelligence; as far as I’m concerned, Snowden has blood on his hands in Paris’ on MSNBC just now.

304
Eventual Carrion  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:49:59am

re: #286 Dr Lizardo

Having been caught in a relatively benign stampede once (it was at a Berlin mosque where they were displaying a relic that was purported to be a hair of Muhammad [saas]) it’s disconcerting, to say the least. In my case, thankfully, the crowd was friendly, not panicky and the worshippers were all in a good mood, nothing bad happened. But when you’re in the middle of a densely-packed crowd, and that crowd moves forward simultaneously, yeah, for a second or two I was thinking, “Oh, shit”. But then the crowd stopped moving and an orderly line quickly established itself.

I was at a Rolling Stones concert (ZZ Top opening for them) at the Astrodome on the infield. Was standing maybe 4th or 5th row back during ZZ Top. Stones hit the stage and I thought I was gonna die, was squashed within arms reach of the stage barrier. We wormed our way out of there as fast as we could. Watched from a farther, more comfortable spot.

305
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:54:25am
306
Amory Blaine  Nov 14, 2015 • 10:56:55am

Wall Of Death Compilation 1

Wall Of Death Compilation 1

307
Timothy Watson  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:08:45am

High school football player attempts to forcibly sodomized another player with a broomstick, newspaper calls it “apparent hazing incident”.
fredericksburg.com

308
Dr Lizardo  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:10:47am

re: #307 Timothy Watson

High school football player attempts to forcibly sodomized another player with a broomstick, newspaper calls it “apparent hazing incident”.
fredericksburg.com

“Apparent hazing incident”? Huh? Yeah, it’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye gets anally impaled on a broomstick.

That clown needs to go to jail for that bullshit.

309
KGxvi  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:12:27am

re: #304 Eventual Carrion

New Years 2001/2002, on the Vegas Strip. Because of 9/11, they didn’t open the Strip to foot traffic like they normally do. But the same number of people showed up and everyone was on the sidewalks. It was like being in the middle of a herd, no control over where you are going. It was absolutely insane

310
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:12:32am

re: #306 Amory Blaine

Wall Of Death Compilation 1

[Embedded content]

Video

That is crazy

311
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:13:33am

Spray painting indoors is an adventure, but I finally got the cleanup completed from when junior fishspawn blocked up the toilet and flooded the upstairs bathroom by painting over the water stains. Bonus points added to my Homeowner skill.

312
Kryptik  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:13:54am

re: #206 Backwoods_Sleuth

This is why I hate this sort of xenophobic fervor. It never just wraps up people in the preferred targeted group. People blinded by fear and hate will target those who just ‘look’ like their preferred targets, or share some sort of tangential relationship. It happens when people harass and attack hispanics and indians because they’re mistaken for “muslims”, it happens when people attack other hispanics, filipinos, etc. in their rush to rage against illegals, etc.

This shit is not helpful, and just makes more enemies and targets, and just sets the cycle going round further and further.

313
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:15:37am

re: #312 Kryptik

Michelle Bachmann and Milo Y. are already blaming the Jews (by posting a neo-Nazi video).

314
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:17:06am
315
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:18:10am
316
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:18:21am

re: #313 Nyet

Michelle Bachmann and Milo Y. are already blaming the Jews (by posting a neo-Nazi video).

Wait, Bachmann is blaming the Jews? That’s actually out of character for her. She’s one of the biggest pro-Israel supporters around.

317
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:20:01am

re: #316 thedopefishlives

Inorite. But now scroll to 18:53.

318
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:20:24am

This guy is such a prick.

319
ObserverArt  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:21:52am

re: #315 Stanley Sea Toujours

Katie Zavadski ✔ @katiezavadski

RIP Nohemi Gonzalez, Cal State Long Beach student killed in Paris attacks: thedailybeast.com
2:12 PM - 14 Nov 2015

Damn. It’s really sad to see such young people killed so senselessly.

320
thedopefishlives  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:21:54am

re: #317 Nyet

Inorite. But now scroll to 18:53.

[Embedded content]

She must be going completely off the deep end, now that no one’s actually paying any attention to her anymore. Oh well. There’s lots of lakes around here that she is more than welcome to jump into at any time.

321
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:23:17am

re: #320 thedopefishlives

OK, realistically, she probably didn’t watch the whole vid. Doesn’t absolve, etc.

322
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:24:32am

re: #321 Nyet

OK, realistically, she probably didn’t watch the whole vid. Doesn’t absolve, etc.

Who was that at 18:53?

323
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:25:21am

re: #322 Stanley Sea Toujours

en.wikipedia.org

324
sagehen  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:26:35am

re: #316 thedopefishlives

Wait, Bachmann is blaming the Jews? That’s actually out of character for her. She’s one of the biggest pro-Israel supporters around.

Pro-Israel =/= pro-Jew.

She only cares about Israel as a venue for her End Times fantasy.

325
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:26:41am

Since disclaimers are apparently necessary even here ;), the video wouldn’t get any better without the antisemitic part.

326
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:29:05am

re: #302 Nyet

In this case your distillation was distortion. Let’s revisit what you wrote.

None of this is based on what I wrote. I never wrote that beliefs are bad because someone who holds that belief is bad. Only that some beliefs are bad and can influence people in a bad way. What particular beliefs those are has remained undiscussed (with exception of the anti-Muslim industry).

I never wrote that extremists should not be distinguished from the group as a whole. Only that them being extremists does not by itself exclude them from the group. I was very explicit that extremists are not necessarily representative of the group.

Sorry, the problem is on your end.

So, basically, it’s not the broader ideology - Christianity, Islam, Communism, Nationalism - that’s the problem. It’s the assholes who take those ideologies to the extreme where they use them to justify violence, because even anti-Jihadism is not a ‘bad’ ideology till it is taken to the extreme of Islamophobia.

So, it’s assholism, not ideology, because it’s not regular folks who take ideologies to the extreme. It’s assholes.

And we’re back where we started.

327
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:35:26am

BTW, I think Breivik is a poor example of ideology over assholism. To me, his crimes don’t make sense as a way to advance his ideology, which makes me think he’s just a mass murderer looking for an excuse. That he believes the excuse doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have been just as violent without it.

328
Tigger2  Nov 14, 2015 • 11:46:42am

re: #274 De Kolta Chair

[Embedded content]

329
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:09:32pm

re: #326 Blind Frog Belly White

One can of course choose the ideological sets broad enough to “front-load” the discussion to lead to the negative conclusion. That’s hardly productive. Is Christianity responsible for those shooting the abortionists? Arguably, since Christianity is not a monolith and exhibits a huge diversity of opinions on the issue, no. Is the conservative Protestantism responsible? Still more “no” than “yes”, because still too broad, but the seeds of the idea are already discernible. When we get from merely conservative to fundamentalist, things begin to look even more different. The more specific we get about the sect, the more responsibility can be ascribed to the ideology.

Now, I would agree if we were talking about previously non-existent ideologies that those who first make an ideology extreme are assholes-first. There isn’t a chicken-or-egg situation there. So we’re talking about the already existing extremist ideologies and those joining them.

The asshole-first theory isn’t really plausible for those born into the environment. So what about those who come from the outside? If they have already been an asshole, their assholishness gets confirmed and intensified by the ideology (whether religious or national). If they have not been an asshole, but they truly begin to believe in the ideology, they become an asshole. There is nothing to suggest that a non-asshole can’t begin to believe in an extreme ideology (whether with or without an external impetus). Our control of our beliefs is hardly perfect. Also people in need who otherwise might not have been assholes, are known to join extremist ideologies and being transformed by them.

In all three cases ideology is the problem. Not to the exclusion of possible prior assholishness. But saying ideology is not the problem is ridiculous.

330
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:10:50pm

re: #327 Blind Frog Belly White

BTW, I think Breivik is a poor example of ideology over assholism. To me, his crimes don’t make sense as a way to advance his ideology, which makes me think he’s just a mass murderer looking for an excuse. That he believes the excuse doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have been just as violent without it.

I don’t find this view to be plausible. Then again, I read his manifesto.

331
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:22:55pm

re: #329 Nyet

One can of course choose the ideological sets broad enough to “front-load” the discussion to lead to the negative conclusion. That’s hardly productive. Is Christianity responsible for those shooting the abortionists? Arguably, since Christianity is not a monolith and exhibits a huge diversity of opinions on the issue, no. Is the conservative Protestantism responsible? Still more “no” than “yes”, because still too broad, but the seeds of the idea are already discernible. When we get from merely conservative to fundamentalist, things begin to look even more different. The more specific we get about the sect, the more responsibility can be ascribed to the ideology.

Now, I would agree if we were talking about previously non-existent ideologies that those who first make an ideology extreme are assholes-first. There isn’t a chicken-or-egg situation there. So we’re talking about the already existing extremist ideologies and those joining them.

The asshole-first theory isn’t really plausible for those born into the environment. So what about those who come from the outside? If they have already been an asshole, their assholishness gets confirmed and intensified by the ideology (whether religious or national). If they have not been an asshole, but they truly begin to believe in the ideology, they become an asshole. There is nothing to suggest that a non-asshole can’t begin to believe in an extreme ideology (whether with or without an external impetus). Our control of our beliefs is hardly perfect. Also people in need who otherwise might not have been assholes, are known to join extremist ideologies and being transformed by them.

In all three cases ideology is the problem. Not to the exclusion of possible prior assholishness. But saying ideology is not the problem is ridiculous.

So, absent assholishness, there would be no violently extremist ideologies, because no ideology appears out of nowhere fully formed.

332
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:31:16pm

re: #331 Blind Frog Belly White

So, absent assholishness, there would be no violently extremist ideologies, because no ideology appears out of nowhere fully formed.

Yes, but that’s not the bone of contention, isn’t it? I will grant you that extremist ideologies wouldn’t be there if assholes hadn’t thought them up first.

Once ideology is there, it itself becomes the problem. More so than mere assholishness. Because assholes exist, yes, but ideology breeds assholes, makes non-assholes into assholes and makes pre-existent assholes worse. Sorta like Twilight.

333
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:35:44pm

re: #332 Nyet

Yes, but that’s not the bone of contention, isn’t it? I will grant you that extremist ideologies wouldn’t be there if assholes hadn’t thought them up first.

Once ideology is there, it itself becomes the problem. More so than mere assholishness. Because assholes exist, yes, but ideology breeds assholes, makes non-assholes into assholes and makes pre-existent assholes worse. Sorta like Twilight.

That’s what I’m saying.

Plus they wouldn’t persist if assholes didn’t keep pushing them. Extreme ideologies are where the assholes go first, but the less assholish also go when they have no hope for the future.

334
Nyet  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:40:29pm

re: #333 Blind Frog Belly White

Well you did write that ideology is not the problem, and that’s what I was arguing with. If the issue is the genesis of certain ideologies, rather than their continued influence, there isn’t much to debate.

335
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 14, 2015 • 12:44:19pm

re: #334 Nyet

Well you did write that ideology is not the problem, and that’s what I was arguing with. If the issue is the genesis of certain ideologies, rather than their continued influence, there isn’t much to debate.

But hey, that won’t stop us, will it?
///

336
Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 14, 2015 • 3:45:46pm

re: #299 Amory Blaine

Doctors urge feds to nix mergers between giant health insurers

If that trend keeps up won’t we have universal *capitalist* health care since soon there will be *one* provider?


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