Active Shooter Reported at Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood Office, Right Wing Twitter Applauds

US News • Views: 69,449

The Denver Post reports that a police officer has been injured in an active shooter situation at Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs.

At least one police officer has been injured in an ongoing active shooter situation at a Colorado Springs branch of Planned Parenthood Friday afternoon.

Lt. Catherine Buckley, a Colorado Springs police spokeswoman, said she was still trying to confirm other details in the fluid situation.

“We still have a gunman that is out there,” she said.

The city’s fire department tweeted about the situation about 11:45 a.m. The branch is located at 3480 Centennial Blvd., just east of the Garden of the Gods.

“The area is NOT secure,” police said in a tweet.

We don’t know much yet, but of course after all the crazed incitement against Planned Parenthood recently it’s likely this is a terrorist attack. Right wingers on Twitter are already condoning it, which isn’t surprising.

UPDATE at 11/27/15 11:51:14 am by Charles Johnson
UPDATE at 11/27/15 12:03:36 pm by Charles Johnson
UPDATE at 11/27/15 12:16:05 pm by Charles Johnson
UPDATE at 11/27/15 3:42:41 pm by Charles Johnson

The latest news from the Colorado Springs Police Department:

UPDATE at 11/27/15 4:27:38 pm by Charles Johnson

The gunman has now surrendered to police and is in custody.

UPDATE at 11/27/15 4:59:40 pm by Charles Johnson

Jump to bottom

512 comments

1
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:43:08am
2
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:43:37am

Freepers are figuring it’s either a false flag incident, or doesn’t matter because of all the babbies killed by PP.

3
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:43:44am
Suspect in #PlannedParenthood shooting is a white male in his 40’s.

Not surprising.

4
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:44:13am

Colorado Springs Police & El Paso Co. Sheriff scanner stream:
MP3 Audio

5
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:44:34am
6
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:46:28am
7
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:47:38am

Comments at Dim Jim’s Garbage Dump:

nodhimmi • 7 minutes ago
this will be politicized in a nano second

gstarr10 • 10 minutes ago
This will bring all the gun grabbers and pro-abortion nuts out of the woodwork.
Let’s hope he has a manifesto and is a nutbag leftist.

WBee1 Proud Navy Wife • 2 minutes ago
So it was the cops that were targeted and not PP. The lib media will ignore that little detail though.
Prayers to the officers and their families.

8
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:47:42am
9
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:48:30am

re: #2 calochortus

Freepers are figuring it’s either a false flag incident, or doesn’t matter because of all the babbies killed by PP.

Also theorizing it’s a robbery gone bad. Apparently there is a bank down the street. Why someone would run over to PP and start shooting escapes me.

10
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:48:50am
11
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:49:00am

Let me try again in this new thread:

I wonder how the wingnuts would react if (God forbid) it was a Muslim was shooting up the Planned Parenthood clinic. Cheer or boo? The cognitive dissonance would probably fry (what’s left of) their brains.

12
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:49:17am
13
Joe Bacon  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:49:25am

I’ve been expecting this ever since Daledian started his campaign of lies. Now Daledian and Chuck C Johnson have blood on their hands. Both of these sons of bitches should be locked up for inciting murder!!!!!

14
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:51:23am
15
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:52:01am

re: #7 The Vicious Babushka

It’s a shooting at PP. It’s already been politicized.

16
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:52:10am
17
PhillyPretzel  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:53:14am

re: #16 wrenchwench

I hope so too.

18
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:55:24am
19
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:56:15am

Open Twitter or don’t? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe…

20
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:56:19am

re: #18 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Of all the self-centered horseshit….

21
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:56:37am

re: #19 CuriousLurker

Open Twitter or don’t? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe…

Don’t.

22
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:57:14am
23
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:57:21am

re: #19 CuriousLurker

Open Twitter or don’t? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe…

Open—block, repeat.

24
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:57:28am

Of course it would happen in that wretched city.

25
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:57:48am

re: #18 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Oh puhleez. How many pro-lifers have been been killed by pro-choice people to date?

26
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:57:50am
27
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:58:11am

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Always digging lower to be thought of as the real victim.

28
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:58:40am

re: #24 The War TARDIS

Of course it would happen in that wretched city.

It has happened all over the country, including very nice cities.

29
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:59:08am

re: #24 The War TARDIS

Why? As if it hasn’t happened anywhere else before?

30
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:59:18am

BBIAB

31
PhillyPretzel  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:59:21am

I hope the police are following what is going on with twitter and other social media.

32
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 11:59:59am

More shit from Dim Jim’s Garbage Dump:

338Lapua • 11 minutes ago
It was just one of the PP employees taking a break from killing babies, to kill a cop.

Nothing to see here.

lee • 7 minutes ago
The true killers work there!

33
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:00:00pm

re: #24 The War TARDIS

Enhance your calm.

34
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:00:32pm

re: #22 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

One of the responses to that tweet—apparently abortion is Obama’s fault ‘cause, y’know, before he was POTUS it wasn’t legal:

35
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:00:49pm

#tcot is strangely silent

36
Single-handed sailor  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:01:10pm

KKTV live stream from Colorado Springs

37
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:01:38pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

Open—block, repeat.

Good idea. As soon as I finish blocking the ones I see here…

38
b_sharp  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:03:43pm

re: #37 CuriousLurker

Good idea. As soon as I finish blocking the ones I see here…

Don’t block me, I’m not really here.

39
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:04:04pm
40
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:05:29pm

Terrorism is terrorism is terrorism.

41
No Depression  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:06:19pm

I can only see this getting worse. Anti-choice extremists will cheer this on, inspiring more attacks on clinics. And you know GOP politicians will only weakly condemn this if at all, as they will secretly be cheering this on themselves.

42
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:07:24pm
43
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:09:50pm

re: #39 The Vicious Babushka

I have no problem calling Islamic terror by its name. I have a problem with calling all Muslims terrorists, the same as you have problems calling all Christians terrorists. Doesn’t mean there aren’t some of both. Douchecanoe.

44
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:12:27pm
45
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:13:52pm

These people have gone stone cold crazy with all their conspiracy theories and claims of white genocide, persecuted Christians, and false flag or “staged” incidents. Either that or they were this crazy to begin with, but we just didn’t realize it because they hadn’t yet unfurled their freak flags and let them fly proudly in the wind.

46
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:13:53pm
47
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:14:13pm

re: #25 CuriousLurker

but, but, won’t someone think of the BAYBEEEEES…………..!!!!!

These fucking idiots honestly have this picture in their heads of every PP location being nothing but rows of beds where an ongoing rotation of abortions are being carried out 24/7. Never mind the women there for birth control, well care visits and other health needs. Sometimes, if you mention it to the doctor or staff while you’re there, they’ll take a look at your kids or at that earache that’s bugging you and give you a prescription for antibiotics.

This is only going to escalate. These assholes have been allowed to do this shit for decades now, and our elected officials have enabled them by passing laws as well as jut plain grandstanding for points. All these assholes have blood on their hands. All. Of. Them.

48
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:15:07pm

Move the goalposts!!!

49
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:15:35pm
50
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:16:15pm

re: #48 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Move the goalposts!!!

51
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:16:40pm

re: #47 A Mom Anon

PP is their epitome of fear: women exerting their power of procreation.

52
No Depression  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:18:31pm

re: #45 CuriousLurker

These people have gone stone cold crazy with all their conspiracy theories and claims of white genocide, persecuted Christians, and false flag or “staged” incidents. Either that or they were this crazy to begin with, but we just didn’t realize it because they hadn’t yet unfurled their freak flags and let them fly proudly in the wind.

Sometimes I feel like even they don’t fully believe all their conspiracy theories; rather than admit that their narratives might be wrong, they throw shit at the wall hoping it sticks to stave off cognitive dissonance.

53
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:20:41pm
54
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:21:16pm

Oh man, I saw the Daily Beast piece last week and bookmarked it, but didn’t tweet it. I hear heads popping… the wingnuts are gonna have to go back to hating the French again. //

55
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:21:44pm

“Proud Hillary Man” claims to be a parody account.

56
PhillyPretzel  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:21:52pm

re: #53 The Vicious Babushka

Oy Vey. Not this again.

57
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:22:23pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

I just had the same thought.

58
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:22:31pm

re: #55 The Vicious Babushka

“Proud Hillary Man” claims to be a parody account.

Yeah, looking that way.

59
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:22:40pm

re: #52 No Depression

Sometimes I feel like even they don’t fully believe all their conspiracy theories; rather than admit that their narratives might be wrong, they throw shit at the wall hoping it sticks to stave off cognitive dissonance.

Could very well be. Either way, it’s not an indicator of good mental health.

60
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:23:01pm

Well, we were warned of a terrorist attack over the holiday…

61
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:23:48pm
62
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:24:08pm
63
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:24:26pm
64
Timothy Watson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:25:28pm

So, RWNJs support shooting police now?

65
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:25:38pm
66
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:25:46pm

Pro-life*

*some conditions apply

67
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:25:50pm

re: #63 The Vicious Babushka

Good lord. That’s so depressing I can’t even. Literally. Can’t. Even.

68
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:26:45pm

re: #64 Timothy Watson

So, RWNJs support shooting police now?

No those cops are the brave heroes who got wounded trying to stop the librul nutjob…

/

69
Dr Lizardo  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:26:51pm

So the mask has dropped. The RWNJ’s are now openly advocating domestic terrorism.

70
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:27:00pm

re: #61 The Vicious Babushka

Left-Media shortcuts: Active shooter near Planned Parenthood = Christian terrorists. Killer yells “Allah u Akbar!” = workplace violence.

Kind of sick of that dumb-assed meme, current since the Ft. Hood shootings. An employee shot at work is listed as a victim of workplace violence in Dept of Labor statistics. Always has been, because THAT’S THE CATEGORY. Any PP employee hurt today will be recorded that way.

71
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:27:09pm

re: #53 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Not surprised. I’ve noted a marked increase of anti-semitic right-wingers openly supporting Trump.

72
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:28:00pm

re: #55 The Vicious Babushka

“Proud Hillary Man” claims to be a parody account.

Yeah, I blocked him after looking at his timeline the first time you posted one of his tweets. Apparently, he thinks parody means you can express any kind of racism or bigotry and then claim it was humor.

73
Dr Lizardo  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:28:22pm

re: #71 Teukka

Not surprised. I’ve noted a marked increase of anti-semitic right-wingers openly supporting Trump.

That’s because a lot of anti-Semitic RWNJ’s are white nationalists.

74
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:28:34pm

I can hardly wait to hear what the Donald has to say about this…Not!

75
No Depression  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:29:14pm

re: #63 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

I think @ShittyMillennial is more apt.

76
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:29:20pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I blocked him after looking at his timeline the first time you posted one of his tweets. Apparently, he thinks parody means you can express any kind of racism or bigotry and then claim it was humor.

Ah, one of those ‘parody’ types.
*Blocked*

77
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:29:29pm

Trying to reach my brother in Colorado springs, just as I have after the last couple of mass shootings in that city. He is a Christian minister though not a but cease, which keeps him at odds with the practitioners of what he calls folk Theology.

78
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:30:31pm

re: #61 The Vicious Babushka

Oh Erick, you freaking asshole. Guess what? It’s possible for an act of violence to be BOTH. AT THE SAME TIME. I know thinking is hard, but do try to keep up with the grownups.

79
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:30:43pm
80
No Depression  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:31:04pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I blocked him after looking at his timeline the first time you posted one of his tweets. Apparently, he thinks parody means you can express any kind of racism or bigotry and then claim it was humor.

Ah, good old hipster racism. /

81
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:32:40pm
82
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:34:00pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Dim Jim has a Stopped Clock Moment==>

83
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:34:58pm

re: #69 Dr Lizardo

So the mask has dropped. The RWNJ’s are now openly advocating domestic terrorism.

Yes because BABBIES!

84
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:35:39pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

24 hour rule.

85
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:35:44pm
86
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:36:09pm

re: #71 Teukka

Not surprised. I’ve noted a marked increase of anti-semitic right-wingers openly supporting Trump.

re: #73 Dr Lizardo

That’s because a lot of anti-Semitic RWNJ’s are white nationalists.

Yep. Other is other—Muslims, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, LGBT—all are equally unacceptable to them. Those idiots like Geller and the few minority people who cheer on the wingnuts might as well be cheering on their own destruction.

No matter how much you grovel and kiss their asses they’re never going to accept you as an equal.

87
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:36:10pm

In other sad gun fuckery news…

Waffle House employee killed by man she told to stop smoking

BILOXI - A Waffle House customer shot and killed an employee after she told him to put out a cigarette at the U.S. 90 business in the early-morning hours Friday, police said.

Biloxi police Sgt. Donnie Dobbs said the 52-year-old employee was shot in the head after arguing with the customer about smoking inside the restaurant around 1 a.m. Friday.

The employee, who has not been identified pending notification of next of kin, died at Merit Health Biloxi a short time later. She had a suffered a single gunshot wound to the head.

The customer, Johnny Max Mount, 45, was arrested as he was walking out of the restaurant. He was booked at the Harrison County jail on a charge of first-degree murder

Happened 15 minutes away from me, right on the beach. i just…I can’t stand this country anymore.

88
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:38:19pm

re: #86 CuriousLurker

“Seared Onion”
Did Trump call for Christians to be registered given the extremist violence?

89
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:39:11pm
90
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:39:14pm

re: #87 Eclectic Cyborg

In other sad gun fuckery news…

Waffle House employee killed by man she told to stop smoking

Happened 15 minutes away from me, right on the beach. i just…I can’t stand this country anymore.

All these responsible gun owners make me feel so fucking safe.

91
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:39:42pm

re: #88 Great White Snark

“Seared Onion”
Did Trump call for Christians to be registered given the extremist violence?

LOL

92
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:40:21pm

re: #87 Eclectic Cyborg

*flips desk, lights on fire*

Why. That’s the only question I have. WHY THE FUCK. Was it really so much harder to put out the cigarette, step outside, and light another, compared to drawing a gun and coldly taking a person’s life? Would it really have killed him to do as she had asked? Instead, she had to be killed just for asking. The ultimate in self-centered assholishness.

93
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:46:17pm

Phone keyboard and display utterly batshit. Will try again when I get to a desktop.

94
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:46:29pm

About the 4chan post…

95
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:46:56pm

Christ, I took a nap and I wake up back in MERICA. Is there anything more Patriotic than a mass shooting at a women’s health service clinic??? ///

The sons of bitches got what they wanted. It took a few months, but they managed to incite some actual violence. Nice going, assholes.

96
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:47:55pm

re: #94 Charles Johnson
Uh, maybe you should inform Jim of… nope. Wouldn’t matter anyway.

Let him pull lots of line out before you yank on him.

97
Romantic Heretic  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:49:24pm

re: #92 thedopefishlives

*flips desk, lights on fire*

Why. That’s the only question I have. WHY THE FUCK. Was it really so much harder to put out the cigarette, step outside, and light another, compared to drawing a gun and coldly taking a person’s life? Would it really have killed him to do as she had asked? Instead, she had to be killed just for asking. The ultimate in self-centered assholishnessFREEDUM!.

That’s how that asshole thinks.

98
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:51:35pm

re: #7 The Vicious Babushka

Comments at Dim Jim’s Garbage Dump:

Love the genius saying it will be politicized. Uhhhhm, guy? The target is already political… That’s what makes it terrorism. Sheesh.

99
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:54:40pm

Waiting to hear the Evangelical and Pentecostal condemnation of this incident.

100
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:55:10pm

re: #87 Eclectic Cyborg

In other sad gun fuckery news…

Waffle House employee killed by man she told to stop smoking

Happened 15 minutes away from me, right on the beach. i just…I can’t stand this country anymore.

If Pleistocene hunters had twitter, they would have heard of every fellow carried off by sabretooths and lost their shit.

101
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:56:37pm

Breitbart commenters are feverishly spreading false information right now, trying to confuse the issue.

102
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:57:16pm
103
Joe Bacon  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:57:27pm

re: #99 The War TARDIS

Waiting to hear the Evangelical and Pentecostal condemnation of this incident.

We’ll hear some of these KKKristians cheer and call for more violence in the name of Jesus!

104
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 12:59:32pm
105
WhatEVs  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:00:20pm

re: #13 Joe Bacon

I’ve been expecting this ever since Daledian started his campaign of lies. Now Daledian and Chuck C Johnson have blood on their hands. Both of these sons of bitches should be locked up for inciting murder!!!!!

Badges of honor to both of those assholes.

106
Mattand  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:00:25pm

re: #101 Charles Johnson

Breitbart commenters are feverishly spreading false information right now, trying to confuse the issue.

The Fox News in-laws insisted last night that sanctuary cities allow illegal immigrants to commit any crime they want, and the police aren’t allowed to do anything about it.

So, yeah, I have a good idea of what kind of horseshit Fox, Breitbart, and the other fever swamps are going to spread on this one.

107
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:02:06pm

re: #94 Charles Johnson

I think the first clue that it wasn’t legit was calling Colorado Springs a liberal shithole.

108
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:04:26pm
109
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:04:26pm
110
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:04:47pm
111
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:05:36pm

Breitbart again.

112
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:07:18pm

Google maps of the location, which is 3480 Centennial Blvd. Notice the protesters in the foreground.

google.com

113
Mattand  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:07:26pm

re: #106 Mattand

The Fox News in-laws insisted last night that sanctuary cities allow illegal immigrants to commit any crime they want, and the police aren’t allowed to do anything about it.

So, yeah, I have a good idea of what kind of horseshit Fox, Breitbart, and the other fever swamps are going to spread on this one.

I read a lot about conservatives being misinformed by Fox News, et. al., but to watch it happen in front of you is scary.

114
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:07:57pm
115
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:09:29pm
116
Single-handed sailor  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:09:41pm

more gunfire from PP building

117
PhillyPretzel  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:11:27pm

re: #116 Single-handed sailor

That most definitely is not good. I hope that everyone in that building get out as soon as possible. Very sad news. :(

118
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:14:43pm
119
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:15:51pm

KKTV just said they’re going to have an interview with a person who was inside the Planned Parenthood office soon.

120
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:16:32pm

re: #118 Charles Johnson

So, Nick sympathizes with Terrorists?

121
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:19:06pm

KKTV: more gunfire confirmed in the last few minutes.

122
Joe Bacon  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:20:45pm

re: #120 The War TARDIS

So, Nick sympathizes with Terrorists?

He’s not the only one. There are plenty of Right Wing Christians rejoicing over this and they’re probably planning more attacks!

123
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:21:21pm

this guy

124
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:22:23pm

re: #122 Joe Bacon

I know, I lived in Colorado Springs from 1997 to November 2013.

I am also Muslim. I am trying to turn their own rhetoric against them.

125
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:24:30pm

re: #124 The War TARDIS

I know, I lived in Colorado Springs from 1997 to November 2013.

I am also Muslim. I am trying to turn their own rhetoric against them.

Dude, I don’t know how you stood it. Of course, I lived in Salt Lake City for seven years, so you can get used to just about anything, I guess.

126
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:24:51pm

We don’t have to call for pp clinics to be armed. Virtually all of them have armed security already, especially in fundy-infested areas like the Springs. That’s probably how the cops were shot: They were posted there and the kook caught them by surprise and targeted them first.

127
Joe Bacon  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:25:39pm

re: #124 The War TARDIS

I know, I lived in Colorado Springs from 1997 to November 2013.

I am also Muslim. I am trying to turn their own rhetoric against them.

Sending you a hug!

128
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:27:33pm

Apart from the fact that decoding the minds of these people is ultimately futile, since they occupy a mental space where logic itself is tortured into Escherian forms, what is the real animus against PP?

Aren’t all the women who get abortions just unfuckable glasses-wearing atheist liburls anyway? Doesn’t abortion mean LESS LIBURL BEBBIES?

Doesn’t it mean LESS POORS? And LESS BROWNS?

What were all these crusaders for justice focused on before the last weekend of this June? You mean to tell me all this chainsaw-powered, baby-limbs-in-bins-with-price-tags nastiness went on for years and years and years and nobody knew? OUTTTRAEG@@@!!1

Nah, it couldn’t be an orchestrated campaign to Rally The Stupid after the Supreme Court “loss” that let TEH GAYS get married… Nope, couldn’t be that. Not dupes, are we, no sir!

129
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:29:11pm

Freepers are confused. News reports talked about shooter “near” PP and they convinced themselves it was unrelated and just the liberal media trying to drag PP into it. Now they’re reporting events in PP. Cognitive dissonance ensues.

130
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:29:12pm

re: #125 dholmes32

I didn’t. I have anger problems, and tend to have issues with group punishment.

131
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:30:08pm
132
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:30:19pm

re: #128 Pawn of the Oppressor

Apart from the fact that decoding the minds of these people is ultimately futile, since they occupy a mental space where logic itself is tortured into Escherian forms, what is the real animus against PP?

Aren’t all the women who get abortions just unfuckable glasses-wearing atheist liburls anyway? Doesn’t abortion mean LESS LIBURL BEBBIES?

Doesn’t it mean LESS POORS? And LESS BROWNS?

What were all these crusaders for justice focused on before the last weekend of this June? You mean to tell me all this chainsaw-powered, baby-limbs-in-bins-with-price-tags nastiness went on for years and years and years and nobody knew? OUTTTRAEG@@@!!1

Nah, it couldn’t be an orchestrated campaign to Rally The Stupid after the Supreme Court “loss” that let TEH GAYS get married… Nope, couldn’t be that. Not dupes, are we, no sir!

Independent women, liberal or otherwise, are a bad and dangerous thing.

133
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:30:44pm
134
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:31:32pm

re: #131 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

“Beliefs?” Is there some religious aspect of this on the left that I’m unaware of?

135
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:31:41pm

re: #133 The Vicious Babushka

George Tiller was unavailable for comment.

136
The Vicious Babushka  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:31:49pm

I’m logging off now.

137
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:32:59pm

re: #128 Pawn of the Oppressor

RWNJ authoritarian reaction: “If there is any action someone else want to take for themselves, I want to stop them.”

138
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:33:31pm

re: #134 CuriousLurker

“Beliefs?” Is there some religious aspect of this on the left that I’m unaware of?

I think they are trying to tie it to Islamic terrorism somehow.

1. Liburls won’t say terrorism and religion are related
2. Unless the terrorist is Christian
3. We somehow admitted that the shooting is Christian Terrorism?? Ooops
4. Post on internet
4. Profit!

“You said four twice.”
“I like four.”
“Charming. Sign here.”

139
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:34:25pm

re: #137 jaunte

RWNJ authoritarian reaction: “If there is any action someone else want to take for themselves, I want to stop them.”

Hmmmm could it beeeee… Satan Denying women free agency?

BY JOVE, I THINK WE’VE GOT IT ;)

140
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:35:12pm

re: #138 Pawn of the Oppressor

I think they are trying to tie it to Islamic terrorism somehow.

1. Liburls won’t say terrorism and religion are related
2. Unless the terrorist is Christian
3. We somehow admitted that the shooting is Christian Terrorism?? Ooops
4. Post on internet
4. Profit!

Ah, okay. Wingnut “logic” escapes me sometimes.

141
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:38:17pm

re: #140 CuriousLurker

There is no logic. “More babies good, free school breakfast bad.”

142
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:39:21pm

And now we have the false flag dimwits chiming in.

143
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:42:24pm

When this first showed up on twitter, I was able to backtrack to some earlier tweets.
PP may not have been the initial target, things happened at a supermarket and a bank in the area before he got there.
The first 911 call came, however, from PP.
Until the situation is resolved, there really is no way to tell why this all happened.

144
Single-handed sailor  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:43:13pm

3 hostages rescued from bathroom, nice.

145
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:43:32pm

We know the shooter is white. If we didn’t the wingers would have him connected to Islam, Mexico, and gay marriage by nightfall. Hell, they might anyway.

146
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:43:39pm

re: #142 dholmes32

And now we have the false flag dimwits chiming in.

[Embedded content]

“FALSE FLAG”! DRINK!
//

147
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:44:32pm

re: #142 dholmes32

And now we have the false flag dimwits chiming in.

[Embedded content]

That started the second wingnuts heard the shooting was at PP. “Staged!! false flag!!11! etc…”

148
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:45:37pm

re: #147 CuriousLurker

That started the second wingnuts heard the shooting was at PP. “Staged!! false flag!!11! etc…”

Never fear. These initial panicked gut reactions will fade into the background noise as soon as they get their talking points sorted out. Somehow, this man will become a liberal by day’s end.

149
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:46:43pm

re: #148 thedopefishlives

Never fear. These initial panicked gut reactions will fade into the background noise as soon as they get their talking points sorted out. Somehow, this man will become a liberal by day’s end.

He already is. A Freeper has linked to someone’s FB page. A liberal!

150
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:47:08pm

re: #147 CuriousLurker

That started the second wingnuts heard the shooting was at PP. “Staged!! false flag!!11! etc…”

Yeah, gotta be a false flag operation, because there’s no way that a moron who listens to apocalyptic anti-government, anti-Islam, anti-gay, anti-woman propaganda and fetishizes guns he’s told are his only defense against tyranny and the “urban” hordes could lose his shit and start shooting people.

151
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:48:31pm

re: #149 calochortus

He already is. A Freeper has linked to someone’s FB page. A liberal!

I keep wondering if a person who had less brain function that a Freeper would even be able to breathe on their own.

152
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:48:46pm

re: #142 dholmes32

Sigh. Nope. No one ever dies from a gun in this country. Ever. Nope. It’s all a plot to take away gunzzzzzz. God it’s so sad and predictable with these assholes.

153
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:49:27pm

re: #151 Skip Intro

I keep wondering if a person who had less brain function that a Freeper would even be able to breathe on their own.

Jellyfish.

154
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:50:32pm
155
lawhawk  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:51:37pm

The right isn’t pro life. It’s pro birth. They couldn’t care what happens the moment the fetus is born. They don’t care what happens as the infant grows up. They don’t care what happens with the toddler’s education or health.

And they certainly don’t care what happens past that.

This all rings loud every time they spout off in glee with the shootings, terrorism, and attacks against PP and the staff/doctors who work there.

These people simply don’t care about human life. They want the fetus to be born alive. What happens thereafter? They don’t care.

It’s sick, and it’s only getting worse with the exhortations by right wing politicians who feed this with their own extreme statements.

156
Blind Frog Belly White  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:54:19pm

re: #155 lawhawk

Every fetus must be born. After that, it’s not their responsibility, because “Bad Decisions”.

157
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:55:03pm

re: #155 lawhawk

As an old lefty radio host used to say, “they love the fetus, hate the child”. If they gave a damn, not one kid would be languishing in the foster care system. Not one school would be underfunded. Not one family would be homeless or hungry. Not one child doomed to a life in an abusive household. This isn’t about Life. It’s about Retribution, Anger and Punishment. Period.

158
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:56:08pm

re: #155 lawhawk

It’s sick, and it’s only getting worse with the exhortations by right wing politicians who feed this with their own extreme statements.

Words mean things. Violent rhetoric produces violence.

159
lawhawk  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:57:16pm

Defund PP they say, as thought that’ll stop abortion?

Of course that’ll also eliminate a prime source of health care for millions of women across the nation, care that they can’t get at a dentist’s office or psychologist’s office or other such BS as Louisiana tried to pawn off on the federal court there.

160
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:57:17pm

re: #155 lawhawk

The right isn’t pro life. It’s pro birth. They couldn’t care what happens the moment the fetus is born. They don’t care what happens as the infant grows up. They don’t care what happens with the toddler’s education or health.

And they certainly don’t care what happens past that.

This all rings loud every time they spout off in glee with the shootings, terrorism, and attacks against PP and the staff/doctors who work there.

These people simply don’t care about human life. They want the fetus to be born alive. What happens thereafter? They don’t care.

It’s sick, and it’s only getting worse with the exhortations by right wing politicians who feed this with their own extreme statements.

The only reason they want the babies born is to serve as punishment to women for having unauthorized sex.

161
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 1:57:47pm

Okay so now it looks like Planned Parenthood was just coincidentally caught up near a big shooting?

162
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:01:07pm

re: #161 Great White Snark

Okay so now it looks like Planned Parenthood was just coincidentally caught up near a big shooting?

LifeNews is pushing that hard. I don’t buy it.

163
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:01:16pm

re: #161 Great White Snark

Okay so now it looks like Planned Parenthood was just coincidentally caught up near a big shooting?

I’m discussing this online with friends. The average PP, because of incidents like this, tends to be a very tight, very secure operation. Usually you have to be buzzed in. If the guy was just interested in taking people out, he would go to the King Sooper’s 3/10th of a mile south of the PP and mow ‘em down. Also, if you look at the location (3480 Centennial Blvd., Colorado Springs, CO), you’ll see the PP is a standalone building behind a two-story medical office building.

I would find it highly coincidental that a motivated shooter would “accidentally” end up in a PP, not with a big office building next door and a supermarket just across a field.

164
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:01:54pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

Anti-shopping-center extremist?

165
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:02:56pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

LifeNews is pushing that hard. I don’t buy it.

Backwoods Sleuth mentioned backtracking on Twitter, and there was some mention of disturbances at a nearby bank and/or store. It is possible they are connected.
Imma gonna wait and see.

166
lawhawk  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:03:01pm

At least four cops shot and injured by the shooter, not even counting an undetermined number of others injured.

This is what the frickin’ right wing is cheering. Pro life my ass.

167
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:03:07pm

re: #164 jaunte

Anti-shopping-center extremist?

ALL FRIDAYS MATTER!

168
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:04:14pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

LifeNews is pushing that hard. I don’t buy it.

Seeing a lot of “near” and not much “at” PP MSM now

169
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:04:45pm

re: #161 Great White Snark

Okay so now it looks like Planned Parenthood was just coincidentally caught up near a big shooting?

CNN confirming shooter is inside PP. Original call came from PP.
No coincidence.

170
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:05:00pm

re: #168 Great White Snark

Seeing a lot of “near” and not much “at” PP MSM now

I think it has been “near” all along.

171
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:06:35pm
172
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:08:17pm

Just to add about what I wrote above regarding security at this PP:

Security concerns at the clinic were high enough that the clinic had a “security room” with a supply of bulletproof vests, but, according to an officer on the scanner, some of the vests are still in the room, and one may have been worn by the gunman.

nytimes.com

173
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:08:23pm

re: #170 calochortus

Mixed. For example the link at the Gazette said at but headline near. If it started elsewhere and rolled into PP that would likely be coincidence not abortion terror. Which would in a way be a very good thing terror being in some ways more threatening than say a robbery at a Chase bank gone all bad. which is also out there on Twitter.

174
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:08:32pm

re: #170 calochortus

I think it has been “near” all along.

“near” was early reports.
It’s pretty much confirmed that the worst of it happened at PP, with the guy shooting in the parking lot and then from inside PP.

175
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:08:34pm

Comment by loon at the Denver Post site:

Wow Obama’s war on Christmas and the 2nd amendment continue by having a false flag operation on the first day of Christmas countdown season.

denverpost.com

176
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:09:17pm
177
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:10:29pm

re: #176 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

No, go ahead, send him in. Either Dirty Harry will bring the gunman down with a single shot…or he’ll get riddled with bullets and we can finally put that myth to rest.

/////

178
lawhawk  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:11:09pm

re: #175 Skip Intro

All while the President and his family welcome the White House Christmas tree… that’s some serious conspiracy there:

Tricksey the POTUS is. Hiding his Muslim roots in plain sight with Christmas tree and all…

179
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:14:03pm

re: #176 wrenchwench

OFFS. Yes, I’m sure Mr Concerned Citizen will be able to help the fucking SWAT TEAM????? I hope the cops thought enough to ID this guy and go have a little chit chat with him later. Because that’s a combination of arrogant and stupid that’s lethal. And that’s without the likely cache of weapons and ammo this idiot has at his disposal. JHC.

180
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:15:03pm

Just heard the shooter is inside the PP lobby and has an AK-47…

181
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:16:25pm

re: #180 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Just heard the shooter is inside the PP lobby and has an AK-47…

Obviously a “responsible gun owner.”

182
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:16:28pm

re: #179 A Mom Anon

OFFS. Yes, I’m sure Mr Concerned Citizen will be able to help the fucking SWAT TEAM????? I hope the cops thought enough to ID this guy and go have a little chit chat with him later. Because that’s a combination of arrogant and stupid that’s lethal. And that’s without the likely cache of weapons and ammo this idiot has at his disposal. JHC.

‘Sir? May we have your phone number and address in case we need to call you in the future? Oh, wait. We have a room right here you can stay in…’

183
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:16:36pm

re: #174 Backwoods_Sleuth

“near” was early reports.
It’s pretty much confirmed that the worst of it happened at PP, with the guy shooting in the parking lot and then from inside PP.

I hadn’t checked recently, but when I looked at online news reports it tended to be “near”-and my point was that it hadn’t changed from “at” to “near” indicating that it was not associated with PP.

184
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:17:46pm

re: #176 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

*facepalm, headdesk* These guys are just itching to shoot someone. Ugh.

185
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:18:55pm

re: #184 CuriousLurker

*facepalm, headdesk* These guys are just itching to shoot someone. Ugh.

They really are. I don’t know why anyone thinks differently; if a person is stockpiling military-style weapons and ammunition for the same, their purpose is clearly to shoot people. It may be for a mass-shooting rampage, or it may be to be that “good guy with a gun” action-movie hero, but they are absolutely intending on shooting a person or persons with those cool military guns.

186
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:19:28pm

re: #184 CuriousLurker

*facepalm, headdesk* These guys are just itching to shoot someone. Ugh.

Well, wouldn’t you if you’d invested your entire IRA in guns and ammo?

187
b_sharp  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:21:05pm

Aren’t you glad guns are such great solutions to all imaginable problems?

Damned efficient conflict solver.

188
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:22:53pm

re: #187 b_sharp

Aren’t you glad guns are such great solutions to all imaginable problems?

Damned efficient conflict solver.

Alcohol Firearms. The cause of, and solution to, all of life’s problems.

189
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:23:07pm

Good practices for coping with an
active shooter situation

• Be aware of your environment and any
possible dangers
• Take note of the two nearest exits in any
facility you visit
• If you are in an office, stay there and
secure the door
• If you are in a hallway, get into a room
and secure the door
• As a last resort, attempt to take the active
shooter down. When the shooter is at
close range and you cannot flee, your
chance of survival is much greater if you
try to incapacitate him/her.
CALL 911
WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO!

190
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:24:04pm

Breitbart commenter.

191
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:25:24pm

In other news, according the Reuters,

WASHINGTON U.S. presidential hopeful Donald Trump’s support among Republicans has dropped 12 points in less than a week, marking the real estate mogul’s biggest decline since he vaulted to the top of the field in July, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.

So we can expect some really crazy ass shit coming from Trump real soon now to get the crazies back in line.

192
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:25:31pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

Breitbart commenter.

Embedded Image

Kinda wish that had come from inside a jail not outside. Yikes.

193
dholmes32  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:26:33pm

re: #189 Great White Snark

We had a training at work for an active shooter situation. We were told to do the following, in the order from preferred to not preferred:

1) Get out.
2) Shelter in place or get into a hiding place.
3) Confront the shooter.

It was emphasized over and over again that #1 was the preferred choice.

If there was an active shooter in my building, getting to the exit would mean getting out on the mezzanine. I’d go and hide in the server room behind the server rack.

194
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:26:45pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

Yeah, all those assholes in Operation Rescue and the Army of God are just crazy liberal abortionists who decided to burn and bomb clinics and shoot and kill doctors and staff. Just. WTF.

195
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:27:02pm

Breitbart commenter.

196
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:28:03pm

re: #185 thedopefishlives

They really are. I don’t know why anyone thinks differently; if a person is stockpiling military-style weapons and ammunition for the same, their purpose is clearly to shoot people. It may be for a mass-shooting rampage, or it may be to be that “good guy with a gun” action-movie hero, but they are absolutely intending on shooting a person or persons with those cool military guns.

Um, sorry that’s just not as common as one might think. Sure it’s out there loud given the internet and all. Just speaking from my own long experience in shooting and running ranges here in California.

197
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:28:13pm

re: #195 Charles Johnson

I wonder if Breitbart is one of the sites Ben Carson said the government should be keeping an eye on?

198
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:29:23pm

re: #195 Charles Johnson

When people show you who they are, believe them. Anyone who uses Breitbart as a source for anything supports this.

I’m kinda done with people. My goal to move to a cave with a bunch of puppies is looking like the best idea I ever had.

199
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:29:50pm

Does it strike anyone as more than a little curious that the wingnuts—who are supposedly champions of the unborn—are incessantly squawking deflections about the possibility of a (RWNJ) shooter at PP, yet never once express the least bit of concern for any pregnant women who might have been in the line of fire?

They DO realize that PP also provides prenatal care, right?

200
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:30:17pm

re: #195 Charles Johnson

Breitbart commenter.

Embedded Image

Yeah, probably one of those heavy law and order types too. But LE collateral damage is acceptable for The Cause.

*spit*

201
Shiplord Kirel  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:30:24pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

Sick people out there. Worse, Fox news and talk radio have monetized the sickness and the GOP has mobilized it as a political force.

202
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:30:38pm

re: #199 CuriousLurker

Does it strike anyone as more than a little curious that the wingnuts—who are supposedly champions of the unborn—are incessantly squawking deflections about the possibility of a (RWNJ) shooter at PP, yet never once expressing the least bit of concern for any pregnant women who might have been in the line of fire?

They DO realize that PP also provides prenatal care, right?

No, they don’t.
Nor do they care.

203
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:31:27pm

re: #199 CuriousLurker

They DO realize that PP also provides prenatal care, right?

No, they don’t. All they know is that they murder hundreds of babbys a day, then sell the body parts at a profit.

204
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:32:03pm

re: #199 CuriousLurker

Does it strike anyone as more than a little curious that the wingnuts—who are supposedly champions of the unborn—are incessantly squawking deflections about the possibility of a (RWNJ) shooter at PP, yet never once expressing the least bit of concern for any pregnant women who might have been in the line of fire?

They DO realize that PP also provides prenatal care, right?

Collateral damage is always expected in a war. Those women are martyrs.

205
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:33:09pm

Must go get something done,

BBL when I hope all this will have ended without further injury to anyone.

206
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:33:47pm

re: #199 CuriousLurker

Does it strike anyone as more than a little curious that the wingnuts—who are supposedly champions of the unborn—are incessantly squawking deflections about the possibility of a (RWNJ) shooter at PP, yet never once expressing the least bit of concern for any pregnant women who might have been in the line of fire?

They DO realize that PP also provides prenatal care, right?

In their minds, any woman who would visit a PP clinic is either there to abort her baby or is paying for services with money that will allow PP to continue aborting babies. After all, if they didn’t support aborting babies, they’d go to a “pro-life” clinic.

207
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:35:02pm

Security concerns at the clinic were high enough that the clinic had a “security room” with a supply of bulletproof vests, but, according to an officer on the scanner, some of the vests are still in the room, and one may have been worn by the gunman.

208
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:35:18pm

re: #196 Great White Snark

Um, sorry that’s just not as common as one might think. Sure it’s out there loud given the internet and all. Just speaking from my own long experience in shooting and running ranges here in California.

Maybe not, but a guy who shows up at an active shooter scene armed to the teeth and asking to “help” has issues. Big ones. And the scary part is that it’s damned near impossible to tell the lunatics apart from the responsible people until they start shooting. Our gun laws are NOT working.

209
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:36:25pm

re: #206 Targetpractice

In their minds, any woman who would visit a PP clinic is either there to abort her baby or is paying for services with money that will allow PP to continue aborting babies. After all, if they didn’t support aborting babies, they’d go to a “pro-life” clinic.

Pro-life clinics don’t provide medical care. They are fronts for adoption services, I.e. babies for profit.

210
Romantic Heretic  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:37:48pm

re: #175 Skip Intro

Comment by loon at the Denver Post site:

Wow Obama’s war on Christmas and the 2nd amendment continue by having a false flag operation on the first day of Christmas countdown season.

denverpost.com

Saw that. Ow.

There’s a reason these people shouldn’t be allowed to play with anything sharper than a rubber ball.

211
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:38:37pm

Always the universal solution for the simple-minded.

212
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:39:01pm

re: #199 CuriousLurker

It’s like I said earlier, most of these people have never once seen the inside of any clinic and they assume that it’s row upon row of beds with doctors doing round the clock abortions. Because they’ve been fed a diet of bullshit and fear based on some extremist’s fever dreams. They have no clue about basic human biology, I’m not sure some of them even get how babies are made and born. If they did, they wouldn’t have fallen for the whole “baby parts for sale, getchyer baby parts here!!!” line of bullshit. They don’t understand birth control or how it works, and they have no idea why there is a whole branch of medicine and science devoted to women’s reproductive health. All they understand is fucking. And they’re probably not that skilled in that department either.

213
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:39:50pm

re: #210 Romantic Heretic

Saw that. Ow.

There’s a reason these people shouldn’t be allowed to play with anything sharper than a rubber ball.

But they have an entire cable “news” network and nationwide radio shows and internet sites that cater just to them.

214
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:40:05pm

White supremacist site “Conservative Tree House” is leading the charge to spread misinformation - they’re pushing hard to make conservatives believe it was a “failed bank robbery” and had nothing to do with Planned Parenthood. Their source: random people on Twitter.

We don’t know at this point if Planned Parenthood was the target, of course.

215
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:40:49pm

re: #211 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Always the universal solution for the simple-minded.

Guess that Einstein thinks the clinic guards and SWAT teams are armed with pea shooters.

216
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:42:12pm

re: #209 allegro

Pro-life clinics don’t provide medical care. They are fronts for adoption services, I.e. babies for profit.

You and I know that, but the wingnuts have got their politicians telling them that all these “clinics” can provide the very same care that PP can. Remember the “list” of “alternatives,” which included everything from “men’s health clinics” to podiatrists as “alternatives” to PP, thus explaining why we could defund it without leaving thousands/millions of women without access to pre-natal care?

217
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:42:45pm

Those 100 black pastors who are supposed to be endorsing Trump?

218
HappyWarrior  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:42:50pm

This is terrorism and it needs to end. We need sane gun laws NOW.

219
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:43:37pm

re: #214 Charles Johnson

White supremacist site “Conservative Tree House” is leading the charge to spread misinformation - they’re pushing hard to make conservatives believe it was a “failed bank robbery” and had nothing to do with Planned Parenthood. Their source: random people on Twitter.

We don’t know at this point if Planned Parenthood was the target, of course.

We don’t know, but the Alex Jones crowd absolutely does, and if the authorities determine that PP was the intended target, the cries of “FALSE FLAG!!!” and “THIS IS OBAMA’S DOING!!!” will get louder.

220
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:46:09pm

I’m kinda wondering how the shooter got into the clinic by accident and how he knew where to get a vest. Just askin’.

221
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:46:33pm

At what point do they storm the place and stop this guy?

222
scottslemmons  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:47:25pm

Conservative Christians endorse terrorism.

The problem is they’ve been doing the same thing for decades, not just about abortion, but about race, gender, sexuality, gay rights, religion, you fucking name it, and the world at large just keeps shrugging it off. It’s never terrorism when the right people do it, and it’s always terrorism when the wrong people do pretty much anything.

When it comes to good vs. evil, good lost centuries ago, probably millennia ago. We live in a society of monsters.

223
Single-handed sailor  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:47:42pm

6 more hostages rescued.

224
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:47:45pm
225
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:48:55pm

re: #221 Eclectic Cyborg

At what point do they storm the place and stop this guy?

I have this hunch they are trying to avoid making a martyr out of him.

226
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:49:10pm
227
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:50:03pm

OT, but sweet potato pie just came out of the oven:

228
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:52:06pm

I haven’t seen an orgy of such hate from the wingnuts like this since Tiller’s murder. And in a month, they’ll insist that nobody ever approved of this, that it was such a horrific event that they were stunned and shocked, and they would never condone shooting abortionists.

You know, just like after Dr. Tiller’s murder.

229
TedStriker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:52:25pm

re: #206 Targetpractice

In their minds, any woman who would visit a PP clinic is either there to abort her baby or is paying for services with money that will allow PP to continue aborting babies. After all, if they didn’t support aborting babies, they’d go to a “pro-life” clinic.

IOW, the “to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs” folks.

Fuck those shitheads.

230
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:52:58pm
231
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:53:43pm

re: #230 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

232
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:54:56pm

re: #230 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Srsly? What exactly is PP supposed to apologize for, I wonder?

233
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:55:24pm

re: #232 CuriousLurker

Srsly? What exactly is PP supposed to apologize for, I wonder?

Existing.

234
TedStriker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:55:52pm

re: #230 wrenchwench

re: #231 Targetpractice

Embedded Image

235
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:57:32pm
236
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:57:59pm

re: #233 wrenchwench

Existing.

Yeah, that was kind of a stupid question. As soon as I hit the “Post It” button it was like, “Duh! For the same reason innocent, law abiding Muslims are supposed to apologize for the actions of terrorists they have no control over.”

237
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:58:14pm

re: #235 jaunte

[Embedded content]

They are also trying to spin the “coincidental” angle.

238
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:58:40pm

re: #235 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Don’t let the fact that the shooting is ongoing get in the way of defending ammosexuals.

239
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 2:58:54pm

I don’t know what kind of doubts people have about Hillary, but this is the kind of occurrence that makes her election look NECESSARY, although perhaps insufficient.

240
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:01:53pm
241
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:03:14pm
242
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:05:26pm

Next time I hear some right-winger talking about how black people have turned inner cities into war zones, I think I’ll bring this up.

When Colorado Springs looks like a scene from Saving Private Ryan for the second time in six months, the problem isn’t “those people.”

243
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:06:19pm

Shaking my freaking head in disbelief, apparently a new tactic for them wingnuts is to sarcastically talk about guns as if they were living entities…

244
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:07:06pm
245
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:07:14pm
246
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:07:52pm

Bought a set of luggage at amazon via Charles’ link. Cheap, but looks good enough. :)

247
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:08:37pm
248
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:08:44pm

Police spokeswoman says the suspect started at the Planned Parenthood clinic, and no other buildings were used.

249
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:09:06pm
250
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:10:01pm
251
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:10:25pm

re: #214 Charles Johnson

White supremacist site “Conservative Tree House” is leading the charge to spread misinformation - they’re pushing hard to make conservatives believe it was a “failed bank robbery” and had nothing to do with Planned Parenthood. Their source: random people on Twitter.

We don’t know at this point if Planned Parenthood was the target, of course.

We do now.

252
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:11:09pm

re: #250 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Obviously proof that they’re in on the “false flag.” Probably just got a call from the White House, ordering them to use the President’s approved talking points.

////

253
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:11:15pm

I must’ve blocked hundreds of people in the last 24 hrs. Just strap on the hip waders, open up Trump’s mentions in Tweetdeck and wallow in a constant stream of malignant, stupid hate.

254
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:12:29pm

re: #253 goddamnedfrank

After I made a comment to someone, I got all sorts of BS.

Blocked 4-6 assholes at once.

255
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:14:49pm
256
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:15:49pm

re: #254 The War TARDIS

After I made a comment to someone, I got all sorts of BS.

Blocked 4-6 assholes at once.

You gotta proactive, block pre-emptively and often. It’s the only way to stand a chance.

257
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:16:35pm

re: #256 goddamnedfrank

True. Though I am more of a Tumblr person.

258
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:19:53pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

259
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:20:57pm

Damn. Sounds like this guy may have IED’s. He came well prepared to inflict carnage.

260
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:21:21pm

So, now that we’ve ended the BS “it was a botched robbery!” talking point, who will be the first Republican candidate to suggest that this is PP’s fault?

261
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:21:35pm

Fucking. Wingnut. Swine.

262
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:21:39pm

re: #259 blueraven

Damn. Sounds like this guy may have IED’s. He came well prepared to inflict carnage.

Military or militia training?

263
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:22:34pm

re: #262 Teukka

Military or militia training?

quite possibly.

264
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:25:34pm
265
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:26:21pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

STFU you GD idiot.

266
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:28:02pm
267
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:28:02pm

re: #260 Targetpractice

So, now that we’ve ended the BS “it was a botched robbery!” talking point, who will be the first Republican candidate to suggest that this is PP’s fault?

I think that has been done already. Not by a candidate but a sitting congressman.

h/t. #230 wrenchwench

268
subterraneanhomesickalien  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:29:03pm

re: #265 Tigger2

I don’t know why this got downdinged.

Tigger was aiming his wrath at the guy on twitter being an idiot, not Mr. Johnson.

269
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:29:28pm

re: #268 subterraneanhomesickalien

I was just about to say the same thing.

270
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:30:23pm

re: #268 subterraneanhomesickalien

Could be a mistaken ding.

271
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:30:35pm

re: #256 goddamnedfrank

You gotta proactive, block pre-emptively and often. It’s the only way to stand a chance.

Blocked everybody, everywhere, forever. Twitter/FB are like mainlining sewer sludge.

272
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:30:56pm

re: #39 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

273
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:31:07pm
274
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:32:12pm

Where are all the Christian #notinmyname tweets?

275
Teukka  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:34:49pm

re: #274 Nyet

Where are all the Christian #notinmyname tweets?

Excellent Question, Good Sir :)

276
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:35:40pm

I’ve been watching Fox News on and off, and they are starting to coalesce on a way to blame “the left” for this

Basically the argument is “NOW do you dumb liberals and The Obummer understand why you shouldn’t be demilitarizing the local police force?!?!?!”

277
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:35:43pm

Latest iteration of the conservative teenage wunderkind runs smack into the ugliness of reality, and his followers aren’t happy about it at all.

278
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:36:46pm
279
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:37:45pm

re: #273 Kid A

[Embedded content]

At least he apologized. Not so much for many other wingers

280
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:38:59pm

A note to conservative media and presidential candidates:

What the fuck did you expect would happen when you run around spouting lies that you know to be lies? What did you expect would happen to the woman’s health clinic that you accused of chopping up babies and selling on the black market so they could buy luxury cars? What did you expect when your presidential candidates lie and say they saw video of “fully formed” fetuses with their “hearts beating” being chopped up and sold for profit even though YOU KNEW it wasn’t true. What did you expect to happen when you refused to acknowledge your lies were lies even when you were confronted with the facts?

ANYONE who has ever accused Planned Parenthood of “selling baby parts” is culpable in this

281
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:40:16pm

Really wish whoever is outside doing construction in the next neighborhood would not use a machine that sounds like gunshots right now. I had to sit and listen for a moment to be sure it was mechanical noise. The sound occupied that funny conjunction between firecrackers, distant shooting, and loud hammering that you get sometimes.

I’m right up the street from the biggest south asian Shiite mosque in the area and it’s no fun to wonder if I have to get dressed and be ready for a neighborhood lockdown. I did wonder for a moment if the Irving Threateners had decided to make good.

282
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:41:43pm

re: #114 electrotek

[Embedded content]

283
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:41:50pm

re: #280 mr.fusion

ANYONE who has ever accused Planned Parenthood of “selling baby parts” is culpable in this

That wildfire is still burning:
twitter.com

284
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:42:32pm

re: #281 Pawn of the Oppressor

That sounds like my kinda place. Where is that mosque?

So I can put another city down to look for jobs in.

285
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:42:40pm

Oh well, I’m sure conservatives will find another torch carrier to replace CJ, who was rapidly approaching his republican pedophilia sell by date anyway. Their fixation on constantly finding new, easily manipulated youthful spokespeople is a psychological coping mechanism meant to assuage the knowledge that their philosophy primarily appeals to a decrepit and dying demographic.

286
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:43:31pm

re: #281 Pawn of the Oppressor

For some reason my neighbors out in the country decided this was the perfect afternoon for rifle practice.

287
Decatur Deb  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:44:06pm

It would be a Very Good Thing if this dipshit is taken alive.

288
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:44:28pm
289
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:45:15pm

HotAir comment:

So. I have a question. Have there been more or less murders than normal inside this planned parenthood building today? Assuming this guy killed 9 people, how does that compare to the usual death rate for a typical day at Planned Murderhood? This guy may very well have saved more lives than he killed.

Vanceone on November 27, 2015 at 5:52 PM

290
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:45:25pm

re: #118 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

291
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:45:38pm

The thread is tragic, maybe kissing guinea pigs will help?

292
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:46:15pm

re: #289 mr.fusion

So much stupid hate. Sighhhhhhhhhhh

293
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:47:12pm

re: #291 Nyet

The thread is tragic, maybe kissing guinea pigs will help?

[Embedded content]

That was a fight to the end.

294
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:50:31pm

re: #291 Nyet

The thread is tragic, maybe kissing guinea pigs will help?

[Embedded content]

And if doesn’t, then Lord Vader playing the Imperial March on a balalaika in the center of Moscow surely will.

ваш “ПРОСТО ТАК”

295
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:51:54pm

Just looked at the twitter accounts of all the GOP presidential contenders. Not a single word about the PPFA shooting. Trump is tweeting about poll numbers and Rubio is tweeting about repealing ACA….not even a “thoughts and prayers” tweet from any of these people running to be president of the entire country

296
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:51:59pm

Hearing that he might be surrendering?

297
Single-handed sailor  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:52:59pm

1 suspect detained.

298
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:53:05pm
299
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:53:22pm

re: #284 The War TARDIS

“HEB” - Hurst/Euless/Bedford, Texas, which I would not recommend to anybody who wants to have a life. Let me diagram the area for you.

^ Cabelas Glenn Beck ^Gentrification^
…………………Rich a-holes < ———————————> More Highways
(FORT WORTH) < Traffic HEB [Airport] Racists
<———————————————————————————————-> Highways (DALLAS)
< Criiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime >

Scale is about 3 miles to the word.

Do you like your car? Like, do you want to live in it? That’s North Texas…

300
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:54:02pm

Speaking of hate, this asshole is at it again. He’s not gonna give up until he gets shot or gets someone else shot:

FBI: Anti-Muslim Activist Could Be Headed For NY Muslim Community

The FBI issued a warning to New York police that anti-Muslim activist Jon Ritzheimer could be headed their way, the New York Daily News reported Friday.

Police were put on alert after Ritzheimer posted a threatening video online on Nov. 18 warning he was headed east to “see those assholes who called me a f——— terrorist,” according to the Daily News.

The newspaper reported that Ritzheimer was referring to the organization Muslims of America, which called Ritzheimer an “American Taliban” in a recent issue of its newspaper, The Islamic Post.

“F—k you Muslims. We’re gonna stop at virtually every mosque along the way, flip them off and tell them to get f——-,” Ritzheimer said in the video, according to the Daily News. The video, which has since been taken down, also reportedly included Ritzheimer showing off a handgun. […]

More: talkingpointsmemo.com

301
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:54:17pm

re: #299 Pawn of the Oppressor

“HEB” - Hurst/Euless/Bedford, Texas, which I would not recommend to anybody who wants to have a life. Let me diagram the area for you.

^ Cabelas Glenn Beck ^Gentrification^
Rich a-holes < ———————————> More Highways
(FORT WORTH) < Traffic HEB [Airport] Racists
<————————————————————————————————————————-> Highways (DALLAS)
< Criiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime >

Scale is about 3 miles to the word.

Do you like your car? Like, do you want to live in it? That’s North Texas…

haha really? I live near Keller, and I always pass through HEB on the way to work near downtown Dallas every morning. HEB sucks.

302
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:54:55pm
303
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:55:03pm
304
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:55:45pm

Suspect has been detained according to this live stream I’m watching.

305
Danack  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:56:14pm

re: #143 Backwoods_Sleuth

PP may not have been the initial target, things happened at a supermarket and a bank in the area before he got there.

Until the situation is resolved, there really is no way to tell why this all happened.

You could have consulted a guy who has an amazing track record for getting things completely wrong:

306
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:56:18pm

re: #299 Pawn of the Oppressor

Yikes.

Much of my newer support comes from the DFW Muslim Community.

307
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:56:21pm

re: #302 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

If he was taken alive, you can be sure every wingnut from here to Honolulu is hoping he’s got a long history of mental illness so they can write him off as “another loon.”

Oh, who am I kidding? They didn’t even wait for the shooting to end before they started that.

308
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:56:49pm
309
A Mom Anon  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:57:24pm

re: #300 CuriousLurker

Wait. I thought he was broke, living in hiding because he and his family were getting death threats and he couldn’t work anymore because of all the meanies out there picking on him. Oh let him show up in NYC. New Yorkers will make his little candy ass cry. Wonder how many times he’s going to have to beg for gas money to get there.

Fucking stupid ass.

310
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:57:50pm

re: #307 Targetpractice

Obviously a leftist.

311
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:59:04pm

re: #310 Nyet

Obviously a leftist.

“He once read Mein Kampf, so he’s obviously a socialist terrorist!!!”

312
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 3:59:17pm

re: #301 electrotek

haha really? I live near Keller, and I always pass through HEB on the way to work near downtown Dallas every morning. HEB sucks.

You know, I actually live in a really nice little apartment in a really nice little quiet complex. The only problem is, it’s minimum ten miles from anything worth doing, and that’s added to the typical 20 miles travel between excitement anyway. My patch of HEB is a quiet zone that somehow hasn’t been ruined by Steady Systematic Decline yet. I’m between the airport and Grapevine so the nearby presence of the wealthy keeps things stable for the time being.

I just wish my place was somewhere else, that’s all.

313
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:00:14pm

re: #230 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Fuck him with a corncob with razor blades embedded in it.

314
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:00:23pm

re: #309 A Mom Anon

Wait. I thought he was broke, living in hiding because he and his family were getting death threats and he couldn’t work anymore because of all the meanies out there picking on him. Oh let him show up in NYC. New Yorkers will make his little candy ass cry. Wonder how many times he’s going to have to beg for gas money to get there.

Fucking stupid ass.

Have you seen one of his crew members? An Iraqi guy that is a self-described ex-Muslim and has a chip on his shoulder. His name is Saad Kooza Salman, and yeah he’s also a psycho idiot too.

315
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:01:01pm

re: #312 Pawn of the Oppressor

You know, I actually live in a really nice little apartment in a really nice little quiet complex. The only problem is, it’s minimum ten miles from anything worth doing, and that’s added to the typical 20 miles travel between excitement anyway. My patch of HEB is a quiet zone that somehow hasn’t been ruined by Steady Systematic Decline yet. I’m between the airport and Grapevine so the nearby presence of the wealthy keeps things stable for the time being.

I just wish my place was somewhere else, that’s all.

I’m usually hanging out at Deep Ellum a lot of times so I rarely venture in Tarrant County, so I feel you.

316
Kryptik  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:02:50pm

Please, please, please, someone who’s tracking this stuff more than I’ve had the stomach to, tell me that the response to this hasn’t been as universally disguisting. Because so far, the posts her seem to leave me the impression that this guy has humungous support for what he’s just done and people are trying to crucify PP and everyone else for what someone did TO them, not because of anything they did.

I keep coming away from things like this feeling like this is the country ‘righting’ itself and trying to destroy all its undesirables, and looking like it might actually have the power to fucking do so now. I’m fucking terrified.

317
blueraven  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:03:43pm
318
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:04:43pm
319
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:06:02pm
320
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:07:34pm

Just saw on CBS national news that the shooter surrendered and “no motive for the shooting is known.”

Well that’s playing it safe.

321
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:07:43pm

re: #316 Kryptik

Terrorist attacks are still a very low risk if you look at the numbers:

The CDC says that some 80,000 deaths each year are attributable to excessive alcohol use. So you’re 4,706 times more likely to drink yourself to death than die from terrorism.

Wikipedia notes that there were 32,367 automobile accidents in 2011, which means that you are 1,904 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack.globalresearch.ca

322
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:07:45pm

So we know he’s white, and he’s out of ammo.

323
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:07:49pm

He was taken alive, which odds tell us means he’s a white guy.

324
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:08:46pm

If you believe that embryos and early fetuses are actual persons, the natural consequence of that belief is support for such actions.

Someone who doesn’t support this either doesn’t actually believe embryos and early fetuses are persons, or is incoherent in their belief.

325
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:08:47pm
326
Kryptik  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:09:41pm

re: #321 jaunte

It’s not just terrorist attacks like this. Just random “YOU AREN’T AMERICA, FUCK YOU!” sort of attacks that the same assholes cheering this seem to support. The creeping fear that this is the shit our political future will bear out because half the country sheerly despises people like me or you so goddamn much and wants so hard to clamp down with every force they have, politically, economically, and violently.

327
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:10:19pm

For fuck’s sake, Fox “news” also reported that we don’t know for sure if the terrorist’s target was indeed Planned Parenthood.

328
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:10:40pm

Black = “Thug.”
Muslim = “Terrorist.”
White = “History of mental illness.”

329
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:11:27pm

re: #309 A Mom Anon

Wait. I thought he was broke, living in hiding because he and his family were getting death threats and he couldn’t work anymore because of all the meanies out there picking on him. Oh let him show up in NYC. New Yorkers will make his little candy ass cry. Wonder how many times he’s going to have to beg for gas money to get there.

Fucking stupid ass.

Yeah, NY isn’t AZ and the place he wants to head for is on New York’s SW border with Pennsylvania, in a location where they’re they’re likely to be armed and not in any mood to suffer bigoted fools, especially after the last wingnut that tried to go after them earlier this year: Ex-Congressional Candidate Plotted To Get Militia To Attack Muslim Group

330
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:11:30pm

re: #324 Nyet

If you believe that embryos and early fetuses are actual persons, the natural consequence of that belief is support for such actions.

Someone who doesn’t support this either doesn’t actually believe embryos and early fetuses are persons, or is incoherent in their belief.

Anyone who grants ‘personhood’ to an embryo or fetus removes personhood from pregnant women.

331
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:12:04pm

re: #326 Kryptik

It’s not just terrorist attacks like this. Just random “YOU AREN’T AMERICA, FUCK YOU!” sort of attacks that the same assholes cheering this seem to support. The creeping fear that this is the shit our political future will bear out because half the country sheerly despises people like me or you so goddamn much and wants so hard to clamp down with every force they have, politically, economically, and violently.

Look at the shooting at the BLM rally earlier this week. Days after Sean Hannity compared BLM to the KKK

Right Wing rhetoric is inciting violence in this country. It’s undeniable

332
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:12:19pm

re: #326 Kryptik

It’s definitely serious and concerning, but I hope you don’t let it get you badly down. I’m still optimistic that people with better hearts will prevail.

333
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:12:34pm

Then again, the natural consequence of the belief in personhood of embryos and early fetuses is that given an either/or choice, you would rather save a box with 100 blastula-“persons” in petri dishes from a burning clinic than a single live baby.

334
Kryptik  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:12:49pm

re: #332 jaunte

I’m not. I haven’t been for some time at this point. Trying to appeal to the better angels of people outside of sites like this has tended to get me painted as the devil, and I’m seeing what people on the right win here want to do to the ‘devils’ in this country.

335
urbanmeemaw  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:12:50pm

re: #302 Charles Johnson

Of course. After shooting policemen. Had he been African American, Hispanic or Muslim, he would have been shot 20 times after he was initially killed.

336
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:14:48pm

So let’s see what wingnuts on twitter are upset that the terrorist got captured before he could have killed more people…

337
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:15:20pm
338
b_sharp  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:15:45pm

re: #335 urbanmeemaw

Of course. After shooting policemen. Had he been African American, Hispanic or Muslim, he would have been shot 20 times after he was initially killed.

They’re just sad they can’t nuke black men from orbit.

339
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:15:57pm

11 people taken to hospital.

340
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:16:22pm
341
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:16:23pm

...

342
Barefoot Grin  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:19:28pm

It’s a damn good thing he wasn’t carrying a 3”knife!

343
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:20:14pm
344
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:20:34pm
345
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:21:00pm

re: #342 Barefoot Grin

It’s a damn good thing he wasn’t carrying a 3”knife!

Or a loosie.

346
Targetpractice  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:21:37pm

Police say that PP was the target, so now begins the wild conspiracy theories about how the police are covering up the “truth” about how this was totally a “robbery gone bad.”

347
Kryptik  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:21:48pm

re: #345 allegro

Or a loosie.

Or his own superhumanly strong body.

348
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:22:08pm

Australia and Indonesia are in a tiff.

Tensions have once again flared between Indonesia and Australia over asylum seeker policy after a boat that was pushed back from Christmas Island by the Royal Australian Navy ran out of fuel off Indonesia.

On Thursday evening - just hours before a two-day summit on refugees began in Jakarta with 14 countries participating including Australia - the boat carrying 16 asylum seekers and an Indonesian captain washed up at a beach in West Kupang.
An Australian Navy vessel approaches a suspected refugee boat off the coast of Christmas Island last week.

The whereabouts of the boat had been a mystery after it was towed out to sea when it came within 200 metres of Christmas Island last Friday.
Advertisement

The Indonesian Foreign Ministry on Friday reiterated its opposition to Australia’s boat push-back policy, which it says puts lives at risk and is not a sustainable solution.

349
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:22:22pm

re: #346 Targetpractice

Police say that PP was the target, so now begins the wild conspiracy theories about how the police are covering up the “truth” about how this was totally a “robbery gone bad.”

And yet, we’re supposed to trust the police and do everything that they say.

350
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:22:56pm

re: #330 wrenchwench

Anyone who grants ‘personhood’ to an embryo or fetus removes personhood from pregnant women.

Here we’ll disagree.

351
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:23:00pm

re: #346 Targetpractice

Police say that PP was the target, so now begins the wild conspiracy theories about how the police are covering up the “truth” about how this was totally a “robbery gone bad.”

Yeah the wingnuts support the police until they don’t.

352
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:23:05pm
353
Desmond  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:23:17pm

So a few days ago, Trump retweets the same kind of racist garbage that motivated Dylan Roof, and some nut shoots up a Planned Parenthood clinic after it’s become widely accepted on the Right that they sell baby parts…or something. I’m sure this will provoke much soul searching and introspection among conservatives……

354
Kryptik  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:23:22pm

re: #349 thedopefishlives

And yet, we’re supposed to trust the police and do everything that they say if you’re not white.

You forgot the important qualifier there.

355
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:13pm

re: #350 Nyet

Here we’ll disagree.

They can’t both have it.

356
GlutenFreeJesus  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:13pm

re: #352 wrenchwench

They probably are, in Colorado Springs.

357
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:23pm

re: #354 Kryptik

You forgot the important qualifier there.

Well, even if you’re white, you’re implicitly supposed to trust the police. They only have to add the qualifier, “or else they’ll kill you,” if you’re not white.

358
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:29pm

re: #343 Charles Johnson

re: #344 Charles Johnson

Clearly every wingnut is watching Fox “news” because they just reported that it’s not clear if PPFA had anything to do with the terrorist attack. It’s no surprise that the sheeple all report the exact same nonsense.

359
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:35pm

re: #352 wrenchwench

After living in the Springs for so long, I know most of the people there are celebrating the attack.

360
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:24:58pm
“…This shooting is at least the fifth high-profile crime at a Planned Parenthood clinic since the release of the Center for Medical Progress’s undercover sting videos this July. In early September, a fire at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Pullman, Washington, was ruled to be an arson. A second arson at a clinic in Thousand Oaks, California, came one month later. Two other attempted arsons have taken place at a clinic in Aurora, Illinois, and at one under construction in New Orleans.”
thedailybeast.com
361
GlutenFreeJesus  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:25:03pm
362
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:25:36pm

re: #355 wrenchwench

They can’t both have it.

Personhood is decided by brain structures. If they both have adequate brain structures, they can both be persons.

363
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:25:37pm
364
jamesfirecat  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:26:57pm

re: #362 Nyet

Personhood is decided by brain structures. If they both have adequate brain structures, they can both be persons.

Does the mother have right to deny the developing fetus use of her organs, even if this results in the fetus’ death?

365
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:27:00pm

re: #352 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

LOL—yes!—I saw them. //

366
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:27:16pm

re: #362 Nyet

Personhood is decided by brain structures. If they both have adequate brain structures, they can both be persons.

So, embryos never, fetuses at some point?

367
mr.fusion  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:27:19pm

Next bit of news that will come out will be this guys name

I’m guessing his social media imprint will make his motive perfectly clear on this one

368
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:28:37pm

Somewhere, Dim Jim Hoft is furiously trying to locate the terrorist’s voting records to see if he has ever voted Democrat.

369
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:28:53pm

re: #368 Kid A

Somewhere, Dim Jim Hoft is furiously trying to locate the terrorist’s voting records.

If he can’t find them, he’ll make them up.

370
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:29:02pm

re: #364 jamesfirecat

Does the mother have right to deny the developing fetus use of her organs, even if this results in the fetus’ death?

If a fetus 5 minutes before birth is not a person, how is a baby 5 minutes after birth a person?

371
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:30:23pm

re: #369 thedopefishlives

If he can’t find them, he’ll make them up.

I’m sure the guy had a great-great-uncle who voted for Truman. LIFELONG DEMONRATS!!11

372
Kid A  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:30:25pm
373
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:31:53pm

re: #368 Kid A

Somewhere, Dim Jim Hoft is furiously trying to locate the terrorist’s voting records to see if he has ever voted Democrat.

Usually by now his face is plastered all over media.

374
jamesfirecat  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:31:59pm

re: #370 Nyet

If a fetus 5 minutes before birth is not a person, how is a baby 5 minutes after birth a person?

It’s not about if you, or anything/anyone else is a person or not, its about if we have the right to “kill” other people by denying them use of our organs if they would die without them.

It does not matter if it is a world famous violinist or a developing child, no one has a right to someone else’s organs.

Do you agree with me on that?

375
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:32:44pm
376
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:33:15pm
377
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:35:38pm

re: #366 wrenchwench

So, embryos never, fetuses at some point?

There are three possible situations:

1. A fetus is never a person. It becomes a person upon birth.

2. A fetus is a person sometime before birth.

3. A baby is not a person for some time after birth.

Position 1 is untenable (if we are talking about actual personhood, not legal simplifications, which change from law to law): there is nothing going on in the brain of the fetus that suddenly makes it into a person during birth.

Positions 2 and 3 are both logically tenable, though they have different practical consequences in certain cases (e.g. punishment for infanticide).

378
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:37:02pm
379
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:37:30pm

re: #370 Nyet

If a fetus 5 minutes before birth is not a person, how is a baby 5 minutes after birth a person?

One is breathing, one is not.

380
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:37:40pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

We are not discussing use of organs.

381
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:37:51pm

re: #376 Charles Johnson

Decent odds that the Colorado Springs shooter is a supporter of Searcy and his Gosnell Movie project.

382
jamesfirecat  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:38:41pm

re: #380 Nyet

We are not discussing use of organs.

Do you want to discuss the morality of abortion or the legality of it?

383
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:38:45pm

re: #379 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

One is breathing, one is not.

Something that has no bearing on personhood. Thanks for making my point for me.

384
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:39:03pm

re: #346 Targetpractice

Police say that PP was the target, so now begins the wild conspiracy theories about how the police are covering up the “truth” about how this was totally a “robbery gone bad.”

True but at some point screw all that. far more to be learned from the facts as they emerge than from the Internet Freak Show. The heart of the matter is the lives saved and lost. Not the political implications or the texture of the grist for the conspiracy advocacy mill.

385
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:39:10pm

re: #382 jamesfirecat

Do you want to discuss the morality of abortion or the legality of it?

We were not discussing it, no.

386
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:40:40pm

re: #377 Nyet

There are three possible situations:

1. A fetus is never a person. It becomes a person upon birth.

2. A fetus is a person sometime before birth.

3. A baby is not a person for some time after birth.

Position 1 is untenable (if we are talking about actual personhood, not legal simplifications, which change from law to law): there is nothing going on in the brain of the fetus that suddenly makes it into a person during birth.

Positions 2 and 3 are both logically tenable, though they have different practical consequences in certain cases (e.g. punishment for infanticide).

The way I see it is this: It’s the choice of the mother.

I can go through all sorts of rationalization - the fetus can survive outside the womb, mother’s life at stake, etc., but in the end, it’s her choice. The one thing that’s pretty obvious is that no woman who carries a fetus very long after finding out about a pregnancy is going to just willy-nilly choose to end the pregnancy sometime later.

387
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:40:56pm

re: #382 jamesfirecat

Hello long time no chat.

388
jamesfirecat  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:41:51pm

re: #385 Nyet

We were not discussing it, no.

So you’re cool with abortion up to the point that the child can survive outside of it’s mother’s womb, and after that point the mother can have it removed and set up for adoption, right?

389
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:42:51pm

re: #383 Nyet

Something that has no bearing on personhood. Thanks for making my point for me.

I’m not getting your point. But I’m glad to have made if for you!

390
Barefoot Grin  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:43:17pm

If the attacker is found to belong to a certain church, you can bet that armed men will show up outside to protest.

391
jamesfirecat  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:43:29pm

re: #387 Great White Snark

Hello long time no chat.

Hey, sorry been busy with a lot of stuff, new job is kicking my ass, making me fear for my professional career because I’m an idiot who makes mistakes and I worry that getting fired from one job will lead to me never being able to get another one.

But I still tend to read LGF as my way of killing the time between 7-8 when I finally get home (commute is hell also).

In short, almost always reading never commenting, because I’m either behind or don’t have anything I feel needs to be said.

392
wrenchwench  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:44:22pm

re: #377 Nyet

There are three possible situations:

1. A fetus is never a person. It becomes a person upon birth.

2. A fetus is a person sometime before birth.

3. A baby is not a person for some time after birth.

Position 1 is untenable (if we are talking about actual personhood, not legal simplifications, which change from law to law): there is nothing going on in the brain of the fetus that suddenly makes it into a person during birth.

Positions 2 and 3 are both logically tenable, though they have different practical consequences in certain cases (e.g. punishment for infanticide).

3. Life begins at 40 ///

Time to go home before getting more mentally involved at this point.

393
TedStriker  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:44:26pm

Excuse me folks, but I’m bailing before this thread gets really contentious and raucous…BBL.

394
Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:26pm

Has Planned Parenthood apologized for Black Lives Matter activists shooting cops during the bank robbery?

Hey I’m just asking questions…

////

395
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:27pm

I’m really happy nobody died and the shooter was brought into custody.

396
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:27pm

re: #391 jamesfirecat

Hey, sorry been busy with a lot of stuff, new job is kicking my ass, making me fear for my professional career because I’m an idiot who makes mistakes and I worry that getting fired from one job will lead to me never being able to get another one.

But I still tend to read LGF as my way of killing the time between 7-8 when I finally get home (commute is hell also).

In short, almost always reading never commenting, because I’m either behind or don’t have anything I feel needs to be said.

Good to see you on. And hear ya on the job front new or old it can be a wrestle to keep alive.

397
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:30pm

re: #393 TedStriker

Excuse me folks, but I’m bailing before this thread gets really contentious and raucous…BBL.

Before?///

398
SirMixALot  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:30pm

re: #12 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

I don’t recall Trump lying about Planned Parenthood, like other GOP candidates, but he did not call out his fellow candidates out for spreading lies however. Trump is just as guilty as the rest of the conservatives movement for creating a climate for yet another terrorist attack on a women’s clinic.

399
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:46:48pm

re: #386 Belafon

Although the question of (secular) personhood does have moral and legal consequences, one can discuss it separably, without going into the pro-choice/anti-abortion debate. In fact, it has very little bearing on the debate, because the numbers of late-term abortions, when it becomes relevant, is minuscule.

400
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:47:47pm
401
CleverToad  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:47:57pm

re: #377 Nyet

There are three possible situations:

1. A fetus is never a person. It becomes a person upon birth.

2. A fetus is a person sometime before birth.

3. A baby is not a person for some time after birth.

Position 1 is untenable (if we are talking about actual personhood, not legal simplifications, which change from law to law): there is nothing going on in the brain of the fetus that suddenly makes it into a person during birth.

Positions 2 and 3 are both logically tenable, though they have different practical consequences in certain cases (e.g. punishment for infanticide).

One practical thing that may be noted in is that — semantic precision notwithstanding — 99% of the people in the U.S. at this time who use the term ‘personhood’ in connection to an embryo or fetus are willing to put the rights of the unborn ‘person’ over the health, sanity, preferences and life of the pregnant woman.

Positions 2 and 3 are logically tenable, but the philosophical discussion is going to be emotionally charged, given the consequences.

402
Sionainn  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:48:25pm

re: #370 Nyet

If a fetus 5 minutes before birth is not a person, how is a baby 5 minutes after birth a person?

Yeah, because there are shitload of abortions like that going on every fucking day.

403
Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:48:40pm

re: #400 jaunte

[Embedded content]

But the Syrian refugees no Vetting!!!!!!!

404
Great White Snark  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:48:43pm

Gonna go out on a limb here folks. Gonna just say just what I think of the abortion question….

I think probably the worst likely time and place for that discussion is right after a shooting at a PP clinic. A place where a lot more than abortion happens. Peace my friends.

405
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:49:07pm

GOP politician who thinks terrorist is a hero.

406
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:49:56pm

re: #399 Nyet

Although the question of (secular) personhood does have moral and legal consequences, one can discuss it separably, without going into the pro-choice/anti-abortion debate. In fact, it has very little bearing on the debate, because the numbers of late-term abortiins, when it becomes relevant, is minuscule.

Except there’s not a whole lot of reason to discuss them otherwise. Say a mother miscarries right before our hypothetical date. Say another mother miscarries right after. Is the second mother required to have a proper funeral? If the first mother has one, is she being stupid? The concept is more about legal consequences than philosophical ones.

407
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:50:05pm

re: #389 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

I’m not getting your point. But I’m glad to have made if for you!

The point is that birth is an arbitrary time point in relation to actual personhood.

408
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:50:41pm

re: #405 jaunte

GOP politician who thinks terrorist is a hero.

Just another day ending in -y.

409
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:51:05pm

re: #404 Great White Snark

Gonna go out on a limb here folks. Gonna just say just what I think of the abortion question….

I think probably the worst likely time and place for that discussion is right after a shooting at a PP clinic. A place where a lot more than abortion happens. Peace my friends.

If any group of people could rationally discuss abortion right after a terrorist attack on a PP clinic, it’s this group.

But the first fucker that chimes in about pineapple on pizza will get a chardonnay thrown at them.

410
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:51:19pm

re: #402 Sionainn

Yeah, because there are shitload of abortions like that going on every fucking day.

I’m not sure what relevance your comment has to mine.

411
William Lewis  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:52:11pm

re: #377 Nyet

Personally I hold position 1 based on my religious belief that a person is ensouled at birth ( see Genesis 2:7 & the breath of life).

412
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:52:39pm

re: #406 Belafon

Except there’s not a whole lot of reason to discuss them otherwise

You may go back and re-read how this discussion started then.

413
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:53:45pm

re: #411 William Lewis

Personally I hold position 1 based on my religious belief that a person is ensouled at birth ( see Genesis 2:7 & the breath of life).

Hence “(secular)” in one of my previous comments. Religious views are based on faith and thus arbitrary.

414
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:54:08pm

re: #407 Nyet

The point is that birth is an arbitrary time point in relation to actual personhood.

I don’t know if I agree with that. Birth is a transitional state for the fetus to a baby. The baby is caused to start breathing and typically starts crying. Don’t know if we should make that the ‘point’ where it becomes a person, but it’s a significant milestone.

But the reality is abortion at that late a stage happens so infrequently, and if so are usually caused by serious consequence, that it’s a somewhat specious argument.

415
Sionainn  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:54:45pm

re: #404 Great White Snark

Gonna go out on a limb here folks. Gonna just say just what I think of the abortion question….

I think probably the worst likely time and place for that discussion is right after a shooting at a PP clinic. A place where a lot more than abortion happens. Peace my friends.

Yes, I think you’re right about that. I know that PP was there for me for many years, providing health care and reproductive services to me when I didn’t have insurance. They caught my precancerous cells and arranged for me to see a doctor who could treat me on a sliding fee scale. Yes, I think I’m quite pissed right now and should just bow out for awhile.

416
kirkspencer  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:55:55pm

re: #413 Nyet

Hence “(secular)” in one of my previous comments. Religious views are based on faith and thus arbitrary.

I’m not sure we’ve actually got a solid biological (or other scientific) definition of ‘person’ from a secular point of view either. Campbell’s question still stands: What is Human?

417
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:58:46pm
418
William Lewis  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:59:20pm

re: #413 Nyet

Hence “(secular)” in one of my previous comments. Religious views are based on faith and thus arbitrary.

So are secular views as shown by the divergence in those secular views. There is no logic in any of them despite what we would hope. All we can do is create laws that protect those who really need protection - the women - and prevent the extremists from harming them.

419
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:59:44pm

Not that “it was wrong” but “nervous about being blamed.”

420
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 4:59:53pm
421
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:01:21pm

No deaths?

422
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:01:21pm

re: #405 jaunte

GOP politician who thinks terrorist is a hero.

They’re not terrorists when they approve of the targets.

423
VegasGolfer  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:01:22pm

Wonder if the cops are gonna take the suspect to Burger King?
I mean the guys had a busy day after all.

424
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:01:47pm

re: #414 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

I don’t know if I agree with that. Birth is a transitional state for the fetus to a baby. The baby is caused to start breathing and typically starts crying. Don’t know if we should make that the ‘point’ where it becomes a person, but it’s a significant milestone.

But the reality is abortion at that late a stage happens so infrequently, and if so are usually caused by serious consequence, that it’s a somewhat specious argument.

What relation does breathing and crying have to personhood? The human person is, first and foremost, its brain. Crying and breathing do not turn the baby brain into a person.

I’m not sure what frequency of late-term abortions has to do with alleged speciousness. The argument is valid or invalid regardless of statistics.

425
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:02:50pm

The zealots are all ‘freedom! liberty!’ for thee, none for pregnant women. By making a zygote a person they remove the personhood and power of choice away from the woman. The woman, not the man, controls procreation, and that is fundamentally the problem.

‘Save Babbies!’ is the last stand for fundamentalists.

426
Skip Intro  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:03:22pm

re: #423 VegasGolfer

Wonder if the cops are gonna take the suspect to Burger King?
I mean the guys had a busy day after all.

They could let him go home for the night to get a good sleep so he’s all fresh for tomorrow. Maybe even have time to set up a GoFundMe page.

427
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:03:32pm

re: #416 kirkspencer

I’m not sure we’ve actually got a solid biological (or other scientific) definition of ‘person’ from a secular point of view either. Campbell’s question still stands: What is Human?

Sure, we don’t. But we do know it’s about the brain, in the end.

428
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:04:01pm

re: #420 Charles Johnson

Hey.. he looks Syrian.

429
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:04:29pm
430
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:04:36pm

re: #428 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

Hey.. he looks Syrian.

Damn, now you’ve done it.

431
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:04:43pm

Kind of looks like the guy in comment 81.
Glasses and the same receding hair.

After looking again I think the guy in 81 has less hair.

432
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:04:56pm

It’s about controlling women. The “personhood” argument is just the latest tactic.

433
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:06:39pm

Pissed off angry white dude in his 50’s. HOLY SHIT I DIDN’T SEE THAT COMING

Edit: I wonder if this attack will have any effect on the NAF case? Part of their reasoning against further video releases was the threat of violence against clinics.

If this guy mouths off after capture and implicates them (Daledien et al.) somehow… Hmmm

434
kirkspencer  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:08:27pm

re: #427 Nyet

Really? So, at what point does the developing embryo become a person - when the first brain cell is developed? If not, have you a harder criteria?

In fairness I think I see what you’re trying to say. But you’re using a sloppy term: “person”. It’s quite as vague as “human” in Campbell’s context.

435
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:09:17pm

re: #401 CleverToad

One practical thing that may be noted in is that — semantic precision notwithstanding — 99% of the people in the U.S. at this time who use the term ‘personhood’ in connection to an embryo or fetus are willing to put the rights of the unborn ‘person’ over the health, sanity, preferences and life of the pregnant woman.

Positions 2 and 3 are logically tenable, but the philosophical discussion is going to be emotionally charged, given the consequences.

THIS. You can be semantically precise & calmly logical all you want, but that’s not how things are expressed or framed when being used as political footballs in the public square.

It’s the same reason I got so bent out of shape over that guy claiming that the shit Dae’sh does is indeed Islamic/Muslim because some knuckle-dragger jihadi cherry picked some 500-year-old treatise or arcane ruling.

That’s NOT how politicians use this crap and it’s NOT what people hear—it’s used to inflame, demonize, scapegoat—there’s nothing logical about it, it’s all emotion.

If it wasn’t used that way, five minutes later it wouldn’t become, “See?? Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer are right—there’s no such thing as a moderate Muslim!”

436
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:09:22pm

I wonder if CCJ is going to try and grift from this…

437
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:09:26pm
438
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:09:40pm

re: #436 Eclectic Cyborg

I wonder if CCJ is going to try and grift from this…

re: #437 Charles Johnson

Question answered.

439
Eclectic Cyborg  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:10:33pm

re: #438 thedopefishlives

Lol that was rather impeccable timing.

440
thedopefishlives  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:10:58pm

re: #439 Eclectic Cyborg

Lol that was rather impeccable timing.

Almost makes me think you two planned that. I QUESTION THE TIMING!

441
The Mountain That Blogs  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:11:16pm

re: #437 Charles Johnson

“I hope women thinking of getting abortions realize how dangerous those places are for their health and peace of mind.”

442
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:11:26pm

re: #440 thedopefishlives

Almost makes me think you two planned that. I QUESTION THE TIMING!

They are clearly the same bot net.

443
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:12:11pm

re: #441 The Mountain That Blogs

“I hope women thinking of getting abortions realize how dangerous those places are for their health and peace of mind.”

“Nice little health and peace of mind you got there; be a shame if anything happened to it.”

444
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:12:33pm

re: #437 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

“I hope women thinking of getting abortions realize how dangerous those places are…”

You fucking sick piece of human garbage. That is outright motherfucking support for terrorism. “Bitch had it coming” in so many words.

Please, any gods that may be listening, let this asshole not soil our discourse anymore. Let him be removed from the public, forever and ever, amen.

(He must be feeling really good to have found a grift that puts him back on the radar. Disgusting isn’t an adequate word.)

445
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:12:47pm

re: #429 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I hope his buddy Ginger Snapped is sweating too.

446
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:13:34pm
447
William Lewis  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:13:50pm

re: #445 CuriousLurker

I hope his buddy Ginger Snapped is sweating too.

Too stupid to. He thinks he’s a hero and will be getting a gold medal like in the end of Star Wars.

448
Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:14:14pm

re: #437 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Shorter CCJ: the PP shooting is great even though we don’t know if it’s related to PP at all but if it is then Journalism!!!!

/

449
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:14:31pm

Ginger is a terrorist. He should be registered. Where are all the moderate white Christian conservatives?

450
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:15:23pm
451
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:16:13pm
452
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:16:58pm

re: #451 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Dammit.

453
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:17:37pm

re: #452 Not a Sparkly Vampire

Dammit.

I think that about covers it.

454
kirkspencer  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:17:39pm
18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions
As used in this chapter—

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

Just thought I’d peg a statement of fact for reference: United States law defining domestic terrorism.

455
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:18:55pm

re: #418 William Lewis

So are secular views

No comparison. Secular views 2 and 3 are based on observable facts about brain development. Science has shown that we are basically our brains. Hence the workable philosophical definition of a person has to be tied to neuroscience, one way or another.

Religious views are based on asserting the unobservable (“soul”) as factual.

as shown by the divergence in those secular views.

Except it’s a definitional, rather than a factual disagreement. The arbitrariness is in choosing which stage of brain development better corresponds to what we would describe as a person. The facts about the brain remain same for all sides.

456
sagehen  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:18:59pm

re: #411 William Lewis

Personally I hold position 1 based on my religious belief that a person is ensouled at birth ( see Genesis 2:7 & the breath of life).

Exodus 21:22 is also quite specific that a fetus is not a person; if you were to assault a pregnant woman in such a way as to cause her to miscarry, the specified penalty is far less than would accrue for the killing of a human being.

457
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:19:05pm

re: #451 jaunte

[Embedded content]

*SIGH*

458
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:19:11pm

I’m hearing two fatalities: one cop, one other.

The terrorist is a murderer.

Hatebreed conservatives held Obama accountable for every cop death since Mike Brown was shot dead. They will not hold Daleiden and Ginger accountable for this creep shooting up the PP clinic and murdering two people.

459
William Lewis  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:21:02pm

re: #455 Nyet

Sorry but I really don’t get what you’re trying to say. It’s almost like an atheist’s Pro-LifeForced Birth argument.

460
Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:21:14pm
The important thing to remember here is the violent backlash that will occur against pro lifers and NRA members.

CAN WE THINK ABOUT THE REAL VICTIMS HERE??!??!!?

461
Charles Johnson  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:21:17pm

re: #441 The Mountain That Blogs

“I hope women thinking of getting abortions realize how dangerous those places are for their health and peace of mind.”

It’s freaking unbelievable. He’s outright threatening women now.

462
SirMixALot  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:22:55pm

re: #370 Nyet

If a fetus 5 minutes before birth is not a person, how is a baby 5 minutes after birth a person?

Your criteria is irrevelant and does not take into consideration the criteria for legal abortion.

Plus this whole debate seems rather insenstive in light of a terrorist attack on a women’s clinic.

463
Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:23:10pm

re: #359 The War TARDIS

I can tell you that my cousin, who has lived there much longer than you have been alive, is most definitely NOT celebrating it.

464
SirMixALot  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:23:23pm

re: #460 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse

CAN WE THINK ABOUT THE REAL VICTIMS HERE??!??!!?

ROFL.

465
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:24:23pm

Telling that Feldwebel Floorshitter references John Brown.

The Forced Birthers are religious nuts, who want to kick off a civil war that results in a theocracy, and hopefully shifts up into Full-Blown Jeezus-comes-back Apocalypse.

I don’t think Chucksie gives a rat-fuck one way or the other. He’s found an argument to grift/mimic his way into. Tonight he’ll have a couple of drinks and see if he can gin up something that will get him national attention - maybe dox one of the victims as a liberal atheist whore!!11 - and he’ll be asking for donations by Monday.

“Stay safe officers”. Really? REALLY? There’s no denying he’s socially stunted. Every so often the tone-deafness pops through. “Different” indeed. I’m Different too, and I know enough not to make cause with fucking terrorists. *spit*

466
sagehen  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:25:42pm

re: #455 Nyet

The arbitrariness is in choosing which stage of brain development better corresponds to what we would describe as a person. The facts about the brain remain same for all sides.

It’s not “arbitrary” at all. At the end of an individual human life, there’s a very precise medical/legal criteria for when a “person” becomes “something that looks like a person but really isn’t.” That’s how we know when to unplug the machines, and when it’s okay to take the heart and transplant it into someone else.

467
The War TARDIS  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:25:46pm

re: #461 Charles Johnson

He might not have a FB shortly.

Right now, my thoughts, after 2 weeks of siege, are the equivalent to a Super Smash Bros. getting the hammer, or…

Super Smash Bros Brawl - Hammer Brawl

468
Fourth Football of the Apocalypse  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:25:55pm

I wonder if that RWNJ who thinks the shooter is a hero still thinks that now that a cop has died.

469
jaunte  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:26:39pm
“For several months now, law enforcement has been concerned about people targeting reproductive health facilities — specifically Planned Parenthood locations across the country.

As CBS News first reported in September, an FBI intelligence bulletin went out to law enforcement agencies nationwide with that warning. It came as Congress was debating Planned Parenthood funding and on the heels of the release of a series of videos by Center for Medical Progress that purported to show Planned Parenthood doctors discussing the harvesting of fetal tissue from abortions.”
cbsnews.com

470
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:27:46pm

The forced-birth cultists murdered a police officer today. Blood is on their hands.

471
goddamnedfrank  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:28:04pm
472
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:28:26pm

OT (but is baby related) moment of cute. My latest creation that was more accident than not, gift for baby boy. I think he’s the most lovable critter I’ve ever made. His little face cracks me up.

473
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:29:12pm

re: #468 Fourth Football of the Apocalypse

I wonder if that RWNJ who thinks the shooter is a hero still thinks that now that a cop has died.

It is definitely trowing the RWNJ’s for a loop.

Which side are you on friends, which side are you on?

474
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:30:11pm

re: #455 Nyet

So if personhood is all about the brain, then what happens in a case like this, where the child has manage to survive past his first year with basically only a brain stem—is he a person or not? Added emphasis is mine:

Doctors struggled to diagnose his condition. Finally, one year after he was born, neurologists at Boston Children’s Hospital, a Harvard teaching hospital, came up with a proper diagnosis: Microhydranencephaly

“Micro means small head, and hydran and cephaly, which we used for Jaxon, means that brain tissue is replaced with fluid,” said Dr. Heather Olson, a neurologist who evaluated Jaxon in August at Boston Children’s.

Olson explained that “most of his brain” never formed. He has a functioning brain stem which allows him to breathe on his own and his organs to function, but Olson said she doesn’t believe Jaxon will be able to talk or walk independently.

There is no prognosis. Doctors are surprised he has made it this far and any future development “depends on the medical complications,” Olson said.

Jaxon gets nutrition through a feeding tube. “Burping” him involves removing the excess fluid directly from his stomach. Even just bathing him requires both parents. […]

abcnews.go.com

475
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:31:10pm

re: #434 kirkspencer

Really? So, at what point does the developing embryo become a person - when the first brain cell is developed? If not, have you a harder criteria?

In fairness I think I see what you’re trying to say. But you’re using a sloppy term: “person”. It’s quite as vague as “human” in Campbell’s context.

We are dealing with an objectively vague process - continuous development. With vague processes you can’t take a specific point and say “it was A before and B after”. Hence the notion of a time point at which a person appears doesn’t make sense, unless you’re using a weird def. of a person. Yet we can look from sufficiently big “distances” and see that A has, indeed, changed into B. Think “childhood” and “adulthood” - legal fictions aside, there is not a time quantum at which you suddenly become an adult. Just as well, when you have three grains of sand, it’s not a heap. But add grains one by one, and you will have a heap of sand. Yet there is not a single moment at which “many grains” turn into a “heap”.

476
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:32:43pm

re: #472 allegro

OT (but is baby related) moment of cute. My latest creation that was more accident than not, gift for baby boy. I think he’s the most lovable critter I’ve ever made. His little face cracks me up.

[Embedded content]

ZOMG, he’s adorable!

477
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:33:23pm

*waves at FG* Hey, you!

478
Stanley Sea Toujours  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:33:30pm

re: #472 allegro

OT (but is baby related) moment of cute. My latest creation that was more accident than not, gift for baby boy. I think he’s the most lovable critter I’ve ever made. His little face cracks me up.

Embedded Image

XXOO you crochet love into your creations. Needed now.

479
meteor  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:33:34pm

re: #145 Shiplord Kirel

They already are. Take a stroll through Twitter.

480
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:33:42pm
481
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:34:00pm

.The pro lifers might have screwed up on this one that guy killed a cop, the cops might not cut them as much slack as they did in the past.

482
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:34:31pm

re: #477 CuriousLurker

*waves at FG* Hey you!

BUSTED!
HI!

483
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:34:41pm

re: #455 Nyet

No comparison. Secular views 2 and 3 are based on observable facts about brain development. Science has shown that we are basically our brains. Hence the workable philosophical definition of a person has to be tied to neuroscience, one way or another.

Religious views are based on asserting the unobservable (“soul”) as factual.

Except it’s a definitional, rather than a factual disagreement. The arbitrariness is in choosing which stage of brain development better corresponds to what we would describe as a person. The facts about the brain remain same for all sides.

Except “personhood” is a legal term here for one who enjoys the full protection of the law. Granting personhood status to a fetus necessitates denying personhood rights of the woman whose body is in use. That is what is at issue.

484
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:36:31pm

Time to report the Texan douche for endorsing terrorism:

485
prairiefire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:36:36pm

re: #472 allegro

Very sweet, I love his earnest expression.

486
Dr. Matt  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:37:58pm
487
Pawn of the Oppressor  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:38:12pm

re: #484 electrotek

Time to report the Texan douche for endorsing terrorism:

[Embedded content]

For a guy with such a tiny, dust-covered thingie, he sure knows a lot about women’s reproduction.

488
Tigger2  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:38:36pm

re: #484 electrotek

Time to report the Texan douche for endorsing terrorism:

[Embedded content]

489
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:38:41pm

re: #474 CuriousLurker

Is a cat a person?

490
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:39:01pm

re: #475 Nyet

We are dealing with an objectively vague process - continuous development. With vague processes you can’t take a specific point and say “it was A before and B after”. Hence the notion of a time point at which a person appears doesn’t make sense, unless you’re using a weird def. of a person. Yet we can look from sufficiently big “distances” and see that A has, indeed, changed into B. Think “childhood” and “adulthood” - legal fictions aside, there is not a time quantum at which you suddenly become an adult. Just as well, when you have three grains of sand, it’s not a heap. But add grains one by one, and you will have a heap of sand. Yet there is not a single moment at which “many grains” turn into a “heap”.

I may be dense, but I’m not understanding what is being argued here. Is a fetus human? At what point does a fetus become an independent person? Is abortion moral at a particular point? The whole conversation seems to be moving around.

Most of it is irrelevant since the question isn’t whether a fetus is a person, but whether a person can claim the right to use someone else’s body.

491
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:40:12pm

re: #490 calochortus

I may be dense, but I’m not understanding what is being argued here. Is a fetus human? At what point does a fetus become an independent person? Is abortion moral at a particular point? The whole conversation seems to be moving around.

Most of it is irrelevant since the question isn’t whether a fetus is a person, but whether a person can claim the right to use someone else’s body.

Yep, the real question is whether or not the law should limit a woman’s right to control her body.

492
electrotek  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:40:38pm

re: #487 Pawn of the Oppressor

For a guy with such a tiny, dust-covered thingie, he sure knows a lot about women’s reproduction.

lol yep

And now we know where they stand if Da’esh were to attack Planned Parenthood:

493
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:40:51pm

re: #483 allegro

Except “personhood” is a legal term here for one who enjoys the full protection of the law. Granting personhood status to a fetus necessitates denying personhood rights of the woman whose body is in use. That is what is at issue.

That’s moving the goalposts. Personhood exists aside from legal fictions.

494
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:41:49pm

Fuck you, CNN.

495
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:41:53pm

re: #490 calochortus

but whether a person can claim the right to use someone else’s body.

That is a separate issue.

496
A Cranky One  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:42:33pm

I’m angry about the terrorist who attacked PP.

I’m horrified and distressed at the RWNJs who feel the attack was somehow justified.

I’m saddened by the senseless death and injury from this incident and the pain the families of the victims are feeling.

I’m frightened by the nutjobs who may feel empowered by this attack.

I’m not in the mood for an intellectual discussion about personhood at this time. Seriously, folks?

Later, lizards.

497
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:46:35pm

re: #495 Nyet

That is a separate issue.

So this is just a random philosophical discussion? OK

By the way, the separate issue has already been answered in the US, and that answer is no. The military cannot order a soldier to donate blood to save another. If I injure you and the only way to save your life is for me to give my blood to transfuse into you, I can’t be forced to do it. Giving blood is minor compared to serving as total life support for a fetus. I’ve given blood and I’ve had kids. There is no comparison when it comes to what it takes to do the two.

498
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:48:30pm

re: #489 Nyet

Is a cat a person?

I don’t understand the question. A cat is a unique individual of an entirely different species. Wasn’t the discussion about brain development in humans? If so, what happens when a human is born with only a brain stem?

499
Feline Fearless Leader  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:48:52pm

re: #489 Nyet

Is a cat a person?

No. They’re gods. Small petty furry ones. But still gods.

500
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:49:01pm

re: #466 sagehen

It’s not “arbitrary” at all.

The definitional aspect is, actually. There are people who choose not to define newborns as persons, thinking they do not satisfy the conditions of what makes a person as we normally think about them. Peter Singer cones to mind:

In Practical Ethics, Singer argues in favour of abortion on the grounds that fetuses are neither rational nor self-aware, and can therefore hold no preferences. As a result, he argues that the preference of a mother to have an abortion automatically takes precedence. In sum, Singer argues that a fetus lacks personhood.
Similar to his argument for abortion, Singer argues that newborns lack the essential characteristics of personhood—“rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness”[20]—and therefore “killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living.”[21]

This choice of a definition of a person is to a certain extent arbitrary.

501
allegro  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:49:50pm

re: #493 Nyet

That’s moving the goalposts. Personhood exists aside from legal fictions.

No goalposts are being moved at all. Do women have the right to bodily autonomy? Like the same right enjoyed by corpses whose organs cannot be used without express permission? If the answer to that is yes then questions about the legal definition of personhood of a fetus is just so much mental masturbation. Personhood cannot be granted to both.

502
Belafon  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:50:10pm

re: #495 Nyet

That is a separate issue.

In what reality?!!

503
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:50:23pm

re: #499 Feline Fearless Leader

No. They’re gods. Small petty furry ones. But still gods.

LOL

504
CuriousLurker  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:53:24pm

Okay, I think I’ve had enough for tonight as well. It’s too sad to think about the families whose holiday season has now been turned to tragedy. My dad died 3 days after my 16th Christmas and the Christmas season was never the same for me again.

Later, lizards.

505
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:53:56pm

re: #498 CuriousLurker

I don’t understand the question. A cat is a unique individual of an entirely different species. Wasn’t the discussion about brain development in humans? If so, what happens when a human is born with only a brain stem?

If a human is born without any capacity to be an actual person, why insist on calling it an actual person? Sure, parents will still love him/her, and for social reasons I think their legal personhood should not be questioned, but no, I would not call a human without a brain an actual person.

506
CleverToad  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:54:18pm

re: #472 allegro

OT (but is baby related) moment of cute. My latest creation that was more accident than not, gift for baby boy. I think he’s the most lovable critter I’ve ever made. His little face cracks me up.

Embedded Image

Adorable! Love the colors.

507
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:55:17pm

re: #502 Belafon

In what reality?!!

In the realm of logic/philosophy, for starters?

508
calochortus  Nov 27, 2015 • 5:55:50pm

OK, I’m off to forage for dinner among the many fine leftovers from yesterday’s dinner.
Laters.

509
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 6:12:24pm

re: #501 allegro

No goalposts are being moved at all. Do women have the right to bodily autonomy? Like the same right enjoyed by corpses whose organs cannot be used without express permission? If the answer to that is yes then questions about the legal definition of personhood of a fetus is just so much mental masturbation. Personhood cannot be granted to both.

You are merely repeating what you have already written. Once again, the discussion is not about legal fictions.

510
Romantic Heretic  Nov 27, 2015 • 6:38:40pm

re: #451 jaunte

Well, crap.

511
CleverToad  Nov 27, 2015 • 6:55:20pm

re: #509 Nyet

You are merely repeating what you have already written. Once again, the discussion is not about legal fictions.

Well, um, if there’s a polite way of phrasing this…
You’re discussing how to define the beginning of an individual human life, which you see as an issue separate from the abortion debate.
It sounds like Allegro is addressing the practical, painful and personal implications of the legal definition of ‘personhood’, in the immediate context of the abortion debate.

It doesn’t seem quite cricket to say she’s moving goalposts when she has not moved from her original position, i.e. the real-world implications of the legal definition of ‘personhood’ in U.S. politics. Likewise, it would be fair to define your argument more clearly from the start, i.e. you’re discussing a scientific/philosophical idea separately from any consideration of abortion. That would help, when we’re in the middle of a thread about the horrific real-world consequences of abortion politics.

I know, that’s not as much fun. I assumed you were discussing the scientific question, but it grated in the very emotional context.

Humbly and inoffensively yours, CT

512
Nyet  Nov 27, 2015 • 7:18:34pm

re: #511 CleverToad

I reacted to a statement that was not defined in merely legal terms, hence in this context reframing it as a legalistic matter is moving the goalposts.

And I made clear what I’m talking about throughout the discussion. I’m not responsible for others not reading from the start, going off on tangents or assuming what has not been said.


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