Sunday Jam: Phox, “1936”

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I think it’s time for something beautiful to offset the creepy sovereign citizen weirdness going on in Oregon, so here’s a gorgeous live performance by the band Phox, featuring captivating singer Monica Martin.

Phox performs “1936” live in the studios of 89.3 The Current.

Find more from the session and an interview with Phox at thecurrent.org

Connect with The Current:
http://TheCurrent.org/
http://youtube.com/893thecurrent/
http://twitter.com/thecurrent
http://facebook.com/TheCurrent

Become a member:
http://contribute.publicradio.org/contribute.php?refId=current

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115 comments
1
Belafon  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:28:23pm

I’ve never been in a recording studio, but I find it interesting that the percussionist is behind a wall.

2
Alephnaught  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:29:08pm

My photo for today:

3
Teukka  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:29:46pm

re: #1 Belafon

I’ve never been in a recording studio, but I find it interesting that the percussionist is behind a wall.

I think it has to do with mic’ing the vocals and instruments, percussion is a bit noisier than other things.
Charles?

4
Alephnaught  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:31:55pm

Also. I’ve found a new thing (for me) on YouTube: people doing travelogue videos cut to tracks from Aphex Twin’s “Selected Ambient Works Volume II”:

Aphex Twin - weathered stone (lake)

5
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:32:00pm

re: #3 Teukka

I think it has to do with mic’ing the vocals and instruments, percussion is a bit noisier than other things.
Charles?

Yep, isolation to prevent ‘bleed’ between tracks. For full drum kits or loud guitars, there are actual isolation rooms, and most studios have iso booths for vocalists

6
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:34:49pm

re: #1 Belafon

I’ve never been in a recording studio, but I find it interesting that the percussionist is behind a wall.

It’s to prevent the drums from leaking into the other microphones as much as possible. The ideal situation in a professional recording is when each instrument and/or vocal is totally isolated on its own track, with no other instruments audible on that track.

I’ve been on many sessions where the drummer is in a separate sound-proofed room, or is surrounded by plexiglass sound barriers.

Of course, sometimes a band wants that sound where everything is mixed together and they play live in the studio without any attempt at separation. But most of the time the engineer is much happier when everything is isolated.

7
Teukka  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:36:05pm

re: #5 makeitstop

Yep, isolation to prevent ‘bleed’ between tracks. For full drum kits or loud guitars, there are actual isolation rooms, and most studios have iso booths for vocalists

Acoustic cross-talk (between tracks) is a term I’ve also seen - not to be confused with the cross-talk which can happen with improperly routed and/or grounded cabling.

8
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:38:58pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

It’s to prevent the drums from leaking into the other microphones as much as possible. The ideal situation in a professional recording is when each instrument and/or vocal is totally isolated on its own track, with no other instruments audible on that track.

I’ve been on many sessions where the drummer is in a separate sound-proofed room, or is surrounded by plexiglass sound barriers.

Of course, sometimes a band wants that sound where everything is mixed together and they play live in the studio without any attempt at separation. But most of the time the engineer is much happier when everything is isolated.

I recorded at Bearsville Studios in Woodstock, and we came in after Deep Purple. Richie Blackmore insisted upon using his entire live rig, so they hauled it all up on top of the control room, miced it all up, then hired carpenters build a huge insulated box around the whole thing.

9
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:39:03pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

It’s to prevent the drums from leaking into the other microphones as much as possible. The ideal situation in a professional recording is when each instrument and/or vocal is totally isolated on its own track, with no other instruments audible on that track.

I’ve been on many sessions where the drummer is in a separate sound-proofed room, or is surrounded by plexiglass sound barriers.

Of course, sometimes a band wants that sound where everything is mixed together and they play live in the studio without any attempt at separation. But most of the time the engineer is much happier when everything is isolated.

I’ve been on both sides of a Plexiglas fishbowl. It’s totally weird to play in that environment, but I suppose for a professional who is adjusted to hearing his drums play in his in-ear sound system, it probably doesn’t make much difference. For mixing, though, it’s so much easier to manage if the drums are tamed.

10
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:40:13pm

re: #9 thedopefishlives

I’ve been on both sides of a Plexiglas fishbowl. It’s totally weird to play in that environment, but I suppose for a professional who is adjusted to hearing his drums play in his in-ear sound system, it probably doesn’t make much difference. For mixing, though, it’s so much easier to manage if the drums are tamed.

I hate those things, although they do work pretty well.

11
dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:40:27pm

According to Republicans, the United States faces a daunting list of crises: an existential threat from Islamic extremism, a tidal wave of illegal immigration, a federal government out of control.

Democrats, meanwhile, are focused on the economy: too few good jobs, too much inequality (both gender and racial), too little access to healthcare

They’re not just offering different answers to the nation’s problems; they’re asking different questions.

and they will measure success differently - for wingnuts the next president will be a failure if he/she does not eliminate mexicans, muslims, and the federal government

12
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:41:39pm
13
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:42:56pm

re: #10 makeitstop

I hate those things, although they do work pretty well.

The one that drives me crazy is at my parents’ church. They have a full Plexiglas enclosure built into the stage itself, which is a marvelous piece of work; but they have no microphones whatsoever on the drum kit. The result is a completely dead non-sound that completely ruins the experience.

14
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:47:08pm

re: #13 thedopefishlives

The one that drives me crazy is at my parents’ church. They have a full Plexiglas enclosure built into the stage itself, which is a marvelous piece of work; but they have no microphones whatsoever on the drum kit. The result is a completely dead non-sound that completely ruins the experience.

I played a show in a theater that uses the plexi panels in front of the drums. Depending upon where I stood, I could either hear no drums at all or more drums than anything else. Disconcerting.

15
jaunte  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:47:32pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Wingnut apologists dishonestly claiming that carrying AR-15s with extended magazines isn’t intimidating.

16
Jenner7  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:47:51pm

#Trumpeffect

17
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:49:23pm

re: #9 thedopefishlives

When all the instruments are nicely separated on their own tracks, an engineer can apply effects, change levels, add compression, or even remove a part entirely without worrying about affecting the other instruments.

I’ve actually been in a couple of situations where we had to come back and re-record something because the instruments weren’t isolated well enough and it was negatively affecting the mix.

18
Targetpractice  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:50:02pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I think there’s a more appropriate word for what’s going on: sedition.

19
HappyWarrior  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:51:01pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

It’s the definition. Fucking right wing hypocrites who say Tamir Rice and Eric Garner deserved to die but coddle these fuckwads. Yet another example why American conservatives are racist hypocrite terrorist apologists.

20
HappyWarrior  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:51:24pm

re: #18 Targetpractice

I think there’s a more appropriate word for what’s going on: sedition.

Yeah but Obama’s President so what’s a little sedition between friends.

21
Amory Blaine  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:53:33pm

re: #4 Alephnaught

I learned about them from the movie Grandma’s Boy (Window Licker).

22
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:53:47pm

re: #16 Jenner7

A heckler disrupted Hillary Clinton’s town hall in NH, questioning Bill Clinton’s sexual history.

#Trumpeffect

The heckler was booed by the crowd, kicked and beaten by Clinton followers, then forcibly removed by security. Oh, wait…

23
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:54:49pm

re: #22 makeitstop

The heckler was booed by the crowd, kicked and beaten by Clinton followere, then forcibly removed by security. Oh, wait…

Nuh uh.

24
Skip Intro  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:54:58pm

re: #18 Targetpractice

I think there’s a more appropriate word for what’s going on: sedition.

Don’t you understand yet?

Obama’s the seditious one. These people are PATRIOTS!!!!!!!

25
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:55:21pm

re: #14 makeitstop

I played a show in a theater that uses the plexi panels in front of the drums. Depending upon where I stood, I could either hear no drums at all or more drums than anything else. Disconcerting.

Really OT, but someone I know who played drums with the Gin Blossoms told me this story. Apparently, one of them is such a terrible singer that the only speaker projecting his vocals is his ear monitor. He’s never known that he doesn’t go mixed into the audience.

You’re not in the Gin Blossoms are you?

26
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:55:37pm
27
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 4:59:48pm

re: #25 Barefoot Grin

You’re not in the Gin Blossoms are you?

No, but let me know if they’re hiring. :)

28
jaunte  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:01:21pm

re: #25 Barefoot Grin

You’re not in the Gin Blossoms are you?

Eric Boehlert must be reading the thread.

29
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:01:25pm

Wow, weird coincidence! Speaking of the Gin Blossoms…

30
Skip Intro  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:04:11pm

So this is happening.

Iranian protesters stormed the Saudi embassy in Tehran early on Sunday and Shi’ite Muslim Iran’s top leader predicted “divine vengeance” for Saudi Arabia’s execution of a prominent Shi’ite cleric.

huffingtonpost.com

Saudi Arabia cuts diplomatic relations with Iran

aljazeera.com

31
Brian J.  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:04:26pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Wow, weird coincidence! Speaking of the Gin Blossoms…

[Embedded content]

No, everything old is just getting even older and more decrepit, like Breitbart’s corpse.

32
Amory Blaine  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:06:13pm

re: #30 Skip Intro

“Protesters” seizing government property? Hmm…

33
Skip Intro  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:06:25pm

re: #31 Brian J.

For some reason the phrase “Breitbart’s corpse” makes me smile.

34
blueraven  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:06:50pm

And more fallout over Oregon militia situation.

35
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:08:16pm

re: #33 Skip Intro
Makes Milo’s day:

36
Targetpractice  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:09:09pm

Yeah, let’s go back to 1997 with the gift of hindsight and realize that virtually none of the GOP’s leaders at the time were without sin while they tried to cast judgment on Bill. From Newt screwing around behind his sick wife’s back, to Hastert paying hush money to keep quiet a decades old sexual assault, to Mark Foley cruising for male pages, I’m not really sure that the GOP wants to take a vote on who will cast the first stone.

37
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:09:12pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Wow, weird coincidence! Speaking of the Gin Blossoms…

[Embedded content]

Ha! He’s played in a few other bands that make their money on the State Fair circuit, but I won’t say which ones because it would out him.

We recorded a couple of songs four or five years ago at his home studio just for the heck of it. I played a Twin Reverb that was set the back of an SUV in the adjoining garage; the other guitar player played his—I can’t remember, HiWatt or Sunn or something—at 11 in the actual fucking studio. No time to build an enclosure. I love the guy, but sheesh.*

*He’s way more talented and the sound ended up fine. I suck. But I know for sure they didn’t unplug my amp.

38
Joe Bacon  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:11:40pm

Ah, I was waiting to see when Paula was going to make another appearance. Hey, is she going to tell us what she did to have Pat Robertson buy her a condo in Long Beach?

39
sagehen  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:13:32pm

re: #30 Skip Intro

So this is happening.

Iranian protesters stormed the Saudi embassy in Tehran early on Sunday and Shi’ite Muslim Iran’s top leader predicted “divine vengeance” for Saudi Arabia’s execution of a prominent Shi’ite cleric.

huffingtonpost.com

Saudi Arabia cuts diplomatic relations with Iran

aljazeera.com

So I guess this means Iran/Saudi will intensify the proxy war they’re fighting in Iraq?

40
Jenner7  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:23:48pm
41
Targetpractice  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:24:56pm
42
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:25:13pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

When all the instruments are nicely separated on their own tracks, an engineer can apply effects, change levels, add compression, or even remove a part entirely without worrying about affecting the other instruments.

I’ve actually been in a couple of situations where we had to come back and re-record something because the instruments weren’t isolated well enough and it was negatively affecting the mix.

I usually mix live, which has some of those considerations but usually not all. It is immensely cleaner to handle when the drums (and other instruments) are isolated. My big problem is with stage amps; great sound quality, but they can overwhelm the mix.

43
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:28:40pm

re: #42 thedopefishlives

I usually mix live, which has some of those considerations but usually not all. It is immensely cleaner to handle when the drums (and other instruments) are isolated. My big problem is with stage amps; great sound quality, but they can overwhelm the mix.

This is my other problem with the other guitar player. I follow the sound-person’s orders; he doesn’t.

44
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:31:59pm

re: #42 thedopefishlives

Guitar players and live sound mixers have a … problematic relationship. The fact is that some types of guitar tones can only be achieved by turning the amp UP. And the live sound mixer wants to turn the amp DOWN. It’s the old irresistible force/immovable object problem.

45
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:32:20pm

I think I’m killing this thread. Or everyone is a Downton Abbey freak.

46
Skip Intro  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:33:28pm
47
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:33:45pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Guitar players and live sound mixers have a … problematic relationship. The fact is that some types of guitar tones can only be achieved by turning the amp UP. And the live sound mixer wants to turn the amp DOWN. It’s the old irresistible force/immovable object problem.

That’s true and very diplomatic.

48
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:34:13pm

re: #45 Barefoot Grin

mr. klys gave me the most adorable kitty slippers for Christmas.

49
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:34:15pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Guitar players and live sound mixers have a … problematic relationship. The fact is that some types of guitar tones can only be achieved by turning the amp UP. And the live sound mixer wants to turn the amp DOWN. It’s the old irresistible force/immovable object problem.

Yep. My guitar players are all great guys, though. They all check with me about how the amp sounds and if it’s overwhelming the house. I’ve gotten pretty good at balancing around it and they’re never unreasonable about it.

50
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:34:40pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Guitar players and live sound mixers have a … problematic relationship. The fact is that some types of guitar tones can only be achieved by turning the amp UP. And the live sound mixer wants to turn the amp DOWN. It’s the old irresistible force/immovable object problem.

And finding middle ground on that problem is pretty rare.

Digital amp modeling makes it a little easier, but I like my amp to move a little air.

51
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:35:56pm

re: #48 klys (maker of Silmarils)

[Embedded content]

mr. klys gave me the most adorable kitty slippers for Christmas.

Mrs. Fish got me fur-lined slippers. I’ve never worn slippers before. I put them on and found myself unable and unwilling to remove them. Mrs. Fish is the best.

52
HappyWarrior  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:36:42pm

re: #40 Jenner7

[Embedded content]

That’s why I have to laugh when wingers claim they’re anti PC. No, they just don’t like being called racist.

53
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:37:12pm

re: #51 thedopefishlives

54
Nyet  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:38:16pm

re: #53 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Pikachu!

55
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:39:16pm

re: #54 Nyet

Pikachu!

I wore them on the plane home and not one person said anything at all. I was very disappointed in my fellow travelers.

56
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:39:58pm

re: #50 makeitstop

And finding middle ground on that problem is pretty rare.

Digital amp modeling makes it a little easier, but I like my amp to move a little air.

My church is fortunate in that one of our members is the owner of a local company that makes an in-ear mixing solution. He jams on the guitar for us, and most of our guitar players either work for, or with, him. They all build their own amps, pedals, and other gear and it sounds incredible.

57
Nyet  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:42:45pm

So an Amnesty official posted this:

As you might expect, 99% of comments are from “outraged” Kremlin trolls.

58
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:42:51pm
59
PhillyPretzel  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:44:10pm

PBS is having a count down to the first episode of Season six. It is full of clips from past seasons and sneak peeks.

60
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:44:30pm

re: #56 thedopefishlives

My church is fortunate in that one of our members is the owner of a local company that makes an in-ear mixing solution. He jams on the guitar for us, and most of our guitar players either work for, or with, him. They all build their own amps, pedals, and other gear and it sounds incredible.

So, on the matter of pedals I ask: are these boutique or self-made pedals really good? Why is it that when I see a pro’s board, it’s usually filled with Boss or Ibanez or Duncan? I ask as the owner of three boutique pedals who wonders why I spent the extra money.

61
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:44:41pm

re: #56 thedopefishlives

My church is fortunate in that one of our members is the owner of a local company that makes an in-ear mixing solution. He jams on the guitar for us, and most of our guitar players either work for, or with, him. They all build their own amps, pedals, and other gear and it sounds incredible.

One of my former students is a sound and lighting tech in NYC. His hobby is refurbishing, or rewiring completely, old tube amps. I’ll poke around his FB page to see if I can find an example.

62
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:46:24pm

re: #60 Barefoot Grin

So, on the matter of pedals I ask: are these boutique or self-made pedals really good? Why is it that when I see a pro’s board, it’s usually filled with Boss or Ibanez or Duncan? I ask as the owner of three boutique pedals who wonders why I spent the extra money.

I’m not big on boutique pedals, never bought one. I think while certain ones sound pretty good, there’s a certain amount of ‘cork-sniffing’ going on.

Spending $350 on one pedal is a bit excessive for my tastes.

63
jaunte  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:46:36pm
64
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:51:40pm

re: #62 makeitstop

I’m not big on boutique pedals, never bought one. I think while certain ones sound pretty good, there’s a certain amount of ‘cork-sniffing’ going on.

Spending $350 on one pedal is a bit excessive for my tastes.

That’s what I’m coming around to. The most I have spent was $175 for an xotic AC booster. But I think there is indeed a lot of ‘cork-sniffing’ and I engaged. I still want a tremolo, but I think I’ll go Boss next time.

65
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:52:42pm
66
sagehen  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:52:45pm

re: #59 PhillyPretzel

PBS is having a count down to the first episode of Season six. It is full of clips from past seasons and sneak peeks.

EIGHT MORE MINUTES!!!

67
A Cranky One  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:52:51pm

OT, but since we’re talking musical stuff, I wanted to address a comment in a previous thread about tube amp watts vs. solid state amp watts.

First, a watt has a specific meaning:

Power is measured in units called watts (abbreviated W). The definition of one watt is simple: One watt is the amount of work done by a circuit in which one ampere of current is driven by one volt.

This relationship lends itself to a simple equation. P = E × I
In other words, power (P) equals voltage (E) times current (I).

So, a watt is a watt, no matter the type of amp. One watt from a tube amp is exactly the same as one watt from a solid state amp.

Then the question is: why do lower power tube amps sound louder than higher power solid state amps?

To full answer to the question requires an understanding of three things: first, the relationship between power and volume; second, the differences between tube amps and solid state amps; and third, how we perceive volume.

The relationship between loudness and power is not linear. For example, to create a 3dB change in loudness (a noticeable increase in loudness) requires 2 times the power. To double the loudness of a signal requires 10 times the power. So if you are using about 1 watt average for a signal and want to play twice as loud, you’ll need 10 watts. If you are using 10 watts and want to double the loudness you’ll need 100 watts.

This is where the difference between tube amps and SS amps becomes important. When over-driven, amps will clip (distort). However, tube amps (due to the circuit design and the use of output transformers, etc.) tend to produce distortion which is perceived as pleasant whereas when solid state amps clip the distortion is unpleasant. So a tube amp can be driven well into clipping/distortion without the unpleasantness that would be obvious from a SS amp driven to clipping.

So a guitarist is playing along using two amps with identical rated power, one tube and one solid state. Let’s say both amps can produce 40 watts, and the average power being used is 10 watts. The guitarist increases the input signal and produces a sound which requires twice the loudness (and thus requires 100 watts to produce correctly). In this case, both amps will clip but the tube amp will sound pleasant while the SS amp will sound terrible. Also important to note is that an amp with twice the power can’t play twice as loud: an 80 watt amp can produce a clean signal that’s only 3 dB louder than a 40 watt amp producing a clean signal (when both amps are producing their maximum unclipped output).

And this is where how we perceive loudness plays another role: adding unpleasant distortion creates the impression of being too loud. This is why the sound in a movie theater can be very loud without being perceived as too loud while a TV turned up too high can sound too loud, even though the actual sound pressure level is much less than in the theater.

Bottom line: a watt is a watt, no matter what type of amp is used to produce it. However, tube amps can be driven into distortion without sounding as bad as a SS amp driven into distortion. In fact, tube amp distortion is a favorite of guitarists; it produces a sound people like.

Note that tube amp distortion may be considered desirable in sound production but is much less so in sound reproduction. When using tube amps in stereos, for example, the distortion that is produced by an over-driven tube amp is not desirable or particularly pleasant.

Sorry for the long post, but I’ve designed and built so many amps over the years that I honestly couldn’t guess the number. So the question about tube vs. SS amps pushed a button.

68
Charles Johnson  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:56:44pm

re: #67 A Cranky One

Groovy.

69
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:56:45pm

Great post. Distortion makes it seem louder but tube amps have a ‘clean’ distortion that we love. But when there’s to much distortion (either electronic, or in the room) it sounds too loud.

70
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:57:23pm
71
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:57:34pm

re: #56 thedopefishlives

My friend’s home workshop in NY. He was my physics student way back when. Now he’s a lighting tech/sound guy in NYC.

From his Facebook page
72
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 5:59:25pm

re: #67 A Cranky One

OT, but since we’re talking musical stuff, I wanted to address a comments in a previous thread about tube amp watts vs. solid state amp watts.

First, a watt has a specific meaning:

Power is measured in units called watts (abbreviated W). The definition of one watt is simple: One watt is the amount of work done by a circuit in which one ampere of current is driven by one volt.

This relationship lends itself to a simple equation. P = E × I
In other words, power (P) equals voltage (E) times current (I).

So, a watt is a watt, no matter the type of amp. One watt from a tube amp is exactly the same as one watt from a solid state amp.

Then the question is: why do lower power tube amps sound louder than higher power solid state amps?

To full answer to the question requires an understanding of three things: first, the relationship between power and volume; second, the differences between tube amps and solid state amps; and third, how we perceive volume.

The relationship between loudness and power is not linear. For example, to create a 3dB change in loudness (a noticeable increase in loudness) requires 2 times the power. To double the loudness of a signal requires 10 times the power. So if you are using about 1 watt average for a signal and want to play twice as loud, you’ll need 10 watts. If you are using 10 watts and want to double the loudness you’ll need 100 watts.

This is where the difference between tube amps and SS amps becomes important. When over-driven, amps will clip (distort). However, tube amps (due to the circuit design and the use of output transformers, etc.) tend to produce distortion which is perceived as pleasant whereas when solid state amps clip the distortion is unpleasant. So a tube amp can be driven well into clipping/distortion without the unpleasantness that would be obvious from a SS amp driven to clipping.

So a guitarist is playing along using two amps with identical rated power, one tube and one solid state. Let’s say both amps can produce 40 watts, and the average power being used is 10 watts. The guitarist increases the input signal and produces a sound which requires twice the loudness (and thus requires 100 watts to produce correctly). In this case, both amps will clip but the tube amp will sound pleasant while the SS amp will sound terrible. Also important to note is that an amp with twice the power can’t play twice as loud: an 80 watt amp can produce a clean signal that’s only 3 dB louder than a 40 watt amp producing a clean signal (when both amps are producing their maximum unclipped output).

And this is where how we perceive loudness plays another role: adding unpleasant distortion creates the impression of being too loud. This is why the sound in a movie theater can be very loud without being perceived as too loud while a TV turned up too high can sound too loud, even though the actual sound pressure level is much less than in the theater.

Bottom line: a watt is a watt, no matter what type of amp is used to produce it. However, tube amps can be driven into distortion without sounding as bad as a SS amp driven into distortion. In fact, tube amp distortion is a favorite of guitarists; it produces a sound people like.

Note that tube amp distortion may be considered desirable in sound production but is much less so in sound reproduction. When using tube amps in stereos, for example, the distortion that is produced by an over-driven tube amp is not desirable or particularly pleasant.

Sorry for the long post, but I’ve designed and built so many amps over the years that I honestly couldn’t guess the number. So the question about tube vs. SS amps pushed a button.

Great post and very informative for me. I have a Music Man 110 RD. It has tubes for clean, but also has SS preamp for the “D.” I have always hated it. The problem for me is that you can shake a house turning the tube channel up to four. That’s why I turned to OD pedals.

73
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:00:00pm

re: #64 Barefoot Grin

That’s what I’m coming around to. The most I have spent was $175 for an xotic AC booster. But I think there is indeed a lot of ‘cork-sniffing’ and I engaged. I still want a tremolo, but I think I’ll go Boss next time.

A couple of friends use Fulltone OCD for boost, and that one sounds pretty good. Then again, I know guys who use old Tube Screamers that sound every bit as good.

I use a Vox Tonelab modeling pedal that does all I need it to do. I think a lot of the pedal worship is the players convincing themselves that they sound better, because the people listening will most likely not even notice.

74
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:00:17pm

re: #67 A Cranky One

Favorited. That is excellent information to know.

75
PhillyPretzel  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:00:40pm

Yay it is starting. Downton Abbey.

76
Targetpractice  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:01:18pm
77
Patricia Kayden  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:01:21pm

re: #16 Jenner7

[Embedded content]

#Trumpeffect

Really? What about Republicans who have cheated on their spouses and still hold political offices? That woman needs to shut the hell up.

78
bratwurst  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:01:22pm

Yes, the party may find itself in such bad shape it needs to call upon a two time loser.

79
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:01:56pm

They should try to keep it from being a shootout which is what the Seditionists want. However, they got out of hand at Bundy Ranch and that was probably not a good thing.

They should surround the place and not let any more kooks in, shut off power and water, shut off communications, and try to talk them out.

80
Feline Fearless Leader  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:02:58pm

re: #78 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Yes, the party may find itself in such bad shape it needs to call upon a two time loser.

The GOP race is starting to look like the third Matrix movie. It’s Agent Smiths all the way down. (Especially from a stated policy standpoint.)

81
Timothy Watson  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:03:52pm

re: #78 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Yes, the party may find itself in such bad shape it needs to call upon a two time loser.

Yeah, sure, go ahead and run Romney, you just won’t be able to qualify for several important states already by now because their filing deadlines have passed.

82
Thanos  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:04:05pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Wow, weird coincidence! Speaking of the Gin Blossoms…

[Embedded content]

We never play Gin Blossoms in the car — we had a CD player stolen with their CD in it, we had a car rear ended with their CD in it, and when we sold our 300 the six CD player jammed while removing their CD, but we rescued all the others. No more Gin Blossoms in the cars, but we are NOT superstitious.

83
Belafon  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:04:09pm

re: #79 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

There needs to be enough law enforcement around to take care of people pointing guns from a distance, like the one on the bridge at Bundy Ranch.

84
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:05:07pm

re: #67 A Cranky One

Could this explain why some audiophiles swear that analog recordings (vinyl) sound “richer and warmer” than digital ones? I can’t tell the difference (other than the pops and crackles on vinyl playback), but I’ve never had high-end equipment at home.

85
bratwurst  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:07:00pm

re: #81 Timothy Watson

Yeah, sure, go ahead and run Romney, you just won’t be able to qualify for several important states already by now because their filing deadlines have passed.

I’d imagine the idea is more for him (or Paul Ryan) to become a “white knight” after the first ballot of a brokered convention.

It’s fun to think about a brokered convention, and it is certainly more possible than it has been any time in the last 30+ years. Even so, I have to think all of those winner take all contests in March will serve exactly as designed and crown someone.

86
Barefoot Grin  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:07:05pm

re: #73 makeitstop

A couple of friends use Fulltone OCD for boost, and that one sounds pretty good. Then again, I know guys who use old Tube Screamers that sound every bit as good.

I use a Vox Tonelab modeling pedal that does all I need it to do. I think a lot of the pedal worship is the players convincing themselves that they sound better, because the people listening will most likely not even notice.

I tried the Fulltone when I bought the xotic. Didn’t like it. You are absolutely right, though. Our last reunion show I played a borrowed guitar (it wasn’t a Squire, but it wasn’t a great Strat) through a borrowed SS Fender amp. And I had been a Gibson player. I’m not a great player under normal circumstances, but was substandard that weekend: no one cared. In fact, I was praised and cheered—thank god for alcohol.

87
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:09:27pm

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

‘Audiophiles’ hear all kinds of stuff and believe all kinds of stuff.

88
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:09:53pm

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Could this explain why some audiophiles swear that analog recordings (vinyl) sound “richer and warmer” than digital ones? I can’t tell the difference (other than the pops and crackles on vinyl playback), but I’ve never had high-end equipment at home.

That’s some of it. There’s also, technically, some data being lost in the analog-to-digital conversion - but in theory, the sampling rate is high enough to prevent that from making an actual, noticeable difference in sound quality. Audiophiles are just weird people in general.

89
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:10:29pm

A primer on the Oregon nutters:

I Studied Oregon’s Militia Movement. Here’s 5 Things You Need to Know

usuncut.com

Link to writer’s own blog: spencersunshine.com

90
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:11:11pm

I’m sure local LE around Burns OR could not handle 100-150 armed yahoos so not responding at first was the wise choice. But they should respond soon, appropriately.

91
Teukka  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:11:54pm

re: #87 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

‘Audiophiles’ hear all kinds of stuff and believe all kinds of stuff.

Yep. Oxygen free cable for an arm, leg, spleen, a kidney and part of your liver. Per feet. Or just mains cable designed to hack 16-20A…

92
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:12:47pm

re: #88 thedopefishlives

That’s some of it. There’s also, technically, some data being lost in the analog-to-digital conversion - but in theory, the sampling rate is high enough to prevent that from making an actual, noticeable difference in sound quality. Audiophiles are just weird people in general.

Losing the analog pops and crackles from the vinyl isn’t a bad deal. But arguing with an audiophile is a waste of time. Once you have the Woo Virus it’s hard to cure yourself of it.

93
William Lewis  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:13:50pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

The fact is that some types of guitar tones can only be achieved by turning the amp UP. .

This is something I’ve been learning lately.

My solution at home is to pull the 5881 power tube and replacing it with an adapter and an EL84 to get the same breakup sound at a much more neighbor friendly volume. That VHT may only 6 Class A watts but it can rattle things.

Go the other way and stick in a 6L6 and it’ll be Fender clean and have the neighbors calling the cops … :D Still gotta give a workout to an EL34 or KT88 in her O_o

94
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:14:49pm

re: #92 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

Losing the analog pops and crackles from the vinyl isn’t a bad deal. But arguing with an audiophile is a waste of time. Once you have the Woo Virus it’s hard to cure yourself of it.

True for all sorts of things.

95
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:15:00pm

One of my favorite pastimes is ‘spot the woo’ on sales articles or commentary. Even people in my own business are prone to it.

96
William Lewis  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:16:07pm

re: #60 Barefoot Grin

So, on the matter of pedals I ask: are these boutique or self-made pedals really good? Why is it that when I see a pro’s board, it’s usually filled with Boss or Ibanez or Duncan? I ask as the owner of three boutique pedals who wonders why I spent the extra money.

My few are Boss or dirt cheap Behringer. I can enjoy them more when the price is sane.

97
stpaulbear  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:16:51pm

re: #73 makeitstop

A couple of friends use Fulltone OCD for boost, and that one sounds pretty good. Then again, I know guys who use old Tube Screamers that sound every bit as good.

I use a Vox Tonelab modeling pedal that does all I need it to do. I think a lot of the pedal worship is the players convincing themselves that they sound better, because the people listening will most likely not even notice.

I bought a Syndrum Twin back in the 80’s and added a couple of pedals that really added a lot to the range of sounds you could pull out of them. a Boss T-Wah made them a lot more dynamic, and a Boss Flanger made them even more 80’s sounding.

98
makeitstop  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:17:09pm

re: #87 Camacho DeezNuts 2016

‘Audiophiles’ hear all kinds of stuff and believe all kinds of stuff.

On the recording end, there is a definite difference between using an analog console as opposed to a solid state one. I mentioned Bearsville, and their ‘A’ room has got a massive old Neve console, all tube. The trouble with old consoles like that is they’re prone to break down a lot - but Neves are modular, so if you’ve got a replacement pre-amp or EQ module you can keep downtime to a minimum. Bearsville solved that problem by having ten backup modules on hand at all times, and a full-time repair tech just for the Neve.

The warmth you get from a console like that is simply not attainable through, say, an SSL (Solid State Logic) console. There is a noticeable difference in sound that equipment manufacturers have tried emulating in digital equipment.

The producer that I worked with would only track on a Neve, and he carried two full racks of ancient Universal Audio leveling amps and compressors. He swore by his gear and woldn’t go into a tracking session without it.

99
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:17:10pm

If I blew $20k per speaker I’d probably want to spend $4k on the speaker cables and $1k on the power cord just to be sure I got my $20k’s worth out of the speaker. You can be damn sure I’d hear the difference!

100
William Lewis  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:17:29pm

re: #67 A Cranky One

Thanks!

101
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:18:23pm

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

With records you are running immediately into the dreaded RIAA equalization curve-which is inredibly non-linear. Combine that with the various materials used up and down the manufacturing chain from the vinyl pressing (which is a sordid chapter all on its own) and the various components used in cartridge manufacturing (cantilever, diamond topology, moving magnet/moving coil, etc.) its a wonder that vinyl sounds good as it does when done right.

102
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:20:00pm

re: #88 thedopefishlives

That’s some of it. There’s also, technically, some data being lost in the analog-to-digital conversion - but in theory, the sampling rate is high enough to prevent that from making an actual, noticeable difference in sound quality. Audiophiles are just weird people in general.

So I have concluded.

I suppose if I had enough disposable income, and enough space at home, and the expectation I would stay in one place longer than a few years, I’d invest in high end stereo playback equipment. I appreciate good, clean sound as much as anyone, but my chosen lifestyle favors low cost, small size and portability. I make do with what I have here, and it’s fine for me.

Maybe I’ve mentioned it before, but my dad’s best friend was a contributor to Audio magazine; he was one of their tech specialists who got to test all the spiffy new equipment (and recordings!) coming out from Denon and other makers. Some of those units cost a few hundred bucks, and that was in the 1970s, so probably a few grand in today’s money. He gave some of the equipment he got to keep to my dad, so we got to enjoy it, too. Neither Dad nor I could really tell the difference between the high-end stuff and the more common equipment, other than maybe there was less background noise during playback.

103
Decatur Deb  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:20:13pm

re: #83 Belafon

There needs to be enough law enforcement around to take care of people pointing guns from a distance, like the one on the bridge at Bundy Ranch.

The photo in the Sepulveda tweet above shows they have a Barrett .50 sniper rifle—extreme effective range, and very pricey.

104
thedopefishlives  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:22:07pm

re: #102 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

The main thing to consider when looking at recording and playback equipment is proper grounding and isolation. Once you’ve got clean, isolated, and properly grounded signals, the rest of it is just sales fodder.

105
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:23:25pm

re: #98 makeitstop

Yes, that makes sense. On the playback side, I don’t think it makes much sense. Unless you like the pops and crackles of vinyl. They go away once your jam gets going.

106
wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:23:54pm

re: #101 Eric The Fruit Bat

With records you are running immediately into the dreaded RIAA equalization curve-which is inredibly non-linear. Combine that with the various materials used up and down the manufacturing chain from the vinyl pressing (which is a sordid chapter all on its own) and the various components used in cartridge manufacturing (cantilever, diamond topology, moving magnet/moving coil, etc.) its a wonder that vinyl sounds good as it does when done right.

I’ve listened to mass market LPs and special pressing/master LPs. There is a marked difference in sound quality. Also in price.

107
stpaulbear  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:24:32pm

re: #93 William Lewis

WL, on an old thread you were saying you liked playing instrumental music. Have you ever hear a record by the Raybeats called Guitar Beat? It’s kind of an 80’s New York take on surf music and it’s a great record. Really hot players. If you can find a copy I highly recommend it. There was another guitar band from Athens GA called Love Tractor that played all instrumentals. I liked their first couple of LPs too.

108
William Lewis  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:26:10pm

re: #107 stpaulbear

WL, on an old thread you were saying you liked playing instrumental music. Have you ever hear a record by the Raybeats called Guitar Beat? It’s kind of an 80’s New York take on surf music and it’s a great record. Really hot players. If you can find a copy I highly recommend it. There was another guitar band from Athens GA called Love Tractor that played all instrumentals. I liked their first couple of LPs too.

THANK YOU for the heads up. I’ll start looking for them. I appreciate it.

109
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:40:51pm

re: #104 thedopefishlives

True-but a shitty recording/pressing is still a shitty recording/pressing. That’s why the Mercury Living Presence and the RCA Red Seal recordings of the mid to late 1950s should be a part of any classical music lover’s collection-not only are they great performances, but they were excellent recordings as well. I still have a half-speed mastered vinyl pressing of Van Cliburn performing Tchaikovsky’s Piano Concerto No. 1 conducted by Kiril Kondrashin on RCA Red Seal.

110
A Cranky One  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:40:59pm

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Could this explain why some audiophiles swear that analog recordings (vinyl) sound “richer and warmer” than digital ones? I can’t tell the difference (other than the pops and crackles on vinyl playback), but I’ve never had high-end equipment at home.

Ah, that opens a can of worms.

But basically you are correct. Vinyl playback introduces distortions that people find pleasant; this is true of even the most expensive/sophisticated equipment. Audiophiles (a group I include myself in) consider that heresy but it’s the simple truth.

Having said that, it’s not the only reason why some might prefer vinyl to digital playback.

Vinyl playback requires equalization prior to cutting the master disc (because of limitations of the medium) and then re-equalization on playback. It’s much easier to get a stylus to move at 1 kHz than at 20 kHz simply because of the mass of the stylus. In the early days of digital, many master tapes weren’t appropriately remixed to remove additional high frequencies added to aid in vinyl playback. This created CDs with “sizzle” that some producers liked and intentionally created in later CDs. One reason that a lot of material was re-released on CD was to correct the lousy mastering on some of the early CDs (in some cases deliberately by idiot producers).

Bottom line though is that you are correct. Vinyl produces euphonic distortions that some people like.

I’ve had many an audiophile argue with me about this, but it can be easily shown. Make a properly done digital recording from vinyl playback and then challenge them to tell the difference between the vinyl playback and the digital recording. Since both recordings have the same euphonic distortions, they can’t tell the difference.

111
Camacho DeezNuts 2016  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:43:59pm

Damn. Lizards are pretty smart.

112
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:46:51pm

re: #110 A Cranky One

If you had a very good disc pressing you could hear the tape noise above the vinyl noise floor. But those were very few and far between.

And, believe it nor not: Disc-O-Film still exists!

113
BeenHereAwhile  Jan 3, 2016 • 6:52:27pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

The photo in the Sepulveda tweet above shows they have a Barrett .50 sniper rifle—extreme effective range, and very pricey.

And the .50 ammo costs approx 10 X the cost per round compared to AR 15 ammo.

114
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jan 3, 2016 • 7:04:33pm

re: #106 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

I’ve listened to mass market LPs and special pressing/master LPs. There is a marked difference in sound quality. Also in price.

Back in the late 1970s-early 1980s you did indeed got what you paid for. The mass-produced vinyl at the time was really horrid. What Mobile Fidelity, Nautlius, Sheffield Labs, CBS Mastersound, et. al. did, was take the time and used quality materials and mastering techniques in pressing the discs. People also found out that Japanese pressings of LP’s were also far superior to US pressings because they were using virgin vinyl and were not pressing as many copies per stamper as the US plants were-not to mention there were some mighty fine cutting engineers here (Stan Ricker, Ken Perry, Ian Leek)

Some attempts, however, didn’t quite work so well. CBS Mastersound did half-speed mastering, but the vinyl wasn’t quite top-shelf. Angel Sonic Series issues a group of recordings cut at 45 RPM to put more detail over a longer length; unfortunately while getting more detail the vinyl was the same old reground crap used in the mainline pressings.

115
Blind Frog Belly White  Jan 3, 2016 • 7:38:37pm

One thing I’ll say about the whole ‘Audiophilia = Woo’ question - I learned a while back that you can measure all you want, but you can’t live in anyone else’s head. You don’t know what they hear. You can have an opinion about it, but that’s pretty much it.

I know that when I replaced my Monster cable with higher grade cable, my wife heard the difference before she got in the room, and not knowing I’d done anything to the stereo.


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