Trump Issues Statement Calling for Obama and Clinton to “Step” Down

Spreading fear for political gain
Politics • Views: 54,303

Donald Trump is wasting no time trying to capitalize on the horrific mass shooting in Orlando, Florida, issuing a statement on his campaign website calling on President Obama to “step down” and for Hillary Clinton to “get out” of the race for the presidency — because they didn’t utter the magic words “radical Islamic terrorism.”

Last night, our nation was attacked by a radical Islamic terrorist. It was the worst terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11, and the second of its kind in 6 months. My deepest sympathy and support goes out to the victims, the wounded, and their families.

In his remarks today, President Obama disgracefully refused to even say the words ‘Radical Islam’. For that reason alone, he should step down. If Hillary Clinton, after this attack, still cannot say the two words ‘Radical Islam’ she should get out of this race for the Presidency.

If we do not get tough and smart real fast, we are not going to have a country anymore. Because our leaders are weak, I said this was going to happen – and it is only going to get worse. I am trying to save lives and prevent the next terrorist attack. We can’t afford to be politically correct anymore.

If you read Trump’s full statement, you may notice something he didn’t mention himself: the fact that the shooting took place at a gay nightclub, targeted at LGBT people.

And he’s now reiterating his call for a ban on Muslims entering the US, despite the fact that the Orlando shooter was a US citizen, born in New York, and despite saying only weeks ago that it was “just a suggestion.”

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443 comments
1
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:00:22pm

Trump’s only regret over Orlando is that he isn’t getting any action on gun and ammo sales in the country. Some poor flunky back at Trump headquarters is going to have hell to pay for that.

2
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:00:28pm

The effort now will be to argue that the shooter was so totally an illegal alien, even if he was born on US soil, because to swallow that a US citizen could be radicalized just doesn’t compute. Like San Bernardino, there has to be some angle that they can use to question his citizenship or suggest he wasn’t “truly” American.

3
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:01:24pm

To repeat what I just posted downstairs:

Donald Trump (and his fans) considers today his very own Rheichstag Fire.

4
SoundGuy 2016  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:01:56pm

It actually can happen here. The GOP nominee is no better than a common Breitbart comment section cretin.

5
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:02:20pm

Trump’s hardly the only one with crass and crazy statements. Ted Cruz wants people to ignore his virulent homophobia, when claiming he’s extending thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families.

These victims are the same people who Cruz would deprive of their rights in a heartbeat.

6
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:02:34pm
7
unproven innocence  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:02:53pm

So he’s calling for an Enabling Act, and to be appointed President by acclimation. No need for elections. Think of the money we’ll all save!

8
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:03:20pm

People are still waiting to find out if their missing loved ones are alive or dead.

9
SteveMcGaziBolaGate RN  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:03:42pm

re: #1 Skip Intro

New product line:

Trump Guns and Ammo

10
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:04:48pm

re: #7 unproven innocence

So he’s calling for an Enabling Act, and to be appointed President by acclimation. No need for elections. Think of the money we’ll all save!

If he was president today with a GOP congress that’s exactly what he’d be doing, and the odds are he’d get it. To those who don’t understand the term “enabling act”, look it up.

11
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:05:43pm

re: #9 SteveMcGaziBolaGate RN

New product line:

Trump Guns and Ammo

He’d find a way to declare bankruptcy, giving him the superfecta of bankruptcies/business failures in areas that are literally money-makers for most everyone else:

Casinos;
Football;
Airlines;
Steaks;
Liquor; and
Water.

12
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:05:55pm
13
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:07:11pm

re: #9 SteveMcGaziBolaGate RN

New product line:

Trump Guns and Ammo

He could offer to give part of the proceeds to charity, which he’ll never do, just like with Trump Vodka, Trump Vets, and Trump the Game.

14
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:07:30pm
15
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:07:31pm

re: #12 jaunte

[Embedded content]

That’s because his supporters think the real victims of today are the poor guns.

16
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:08:11pm

re: #12 jaunte

I don’t think it had anything to do with that. Trump is incapable of feeling sympathy for anyone besides himself.

17
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:08:20pm

From two threads ago:

littlegreenfootballs.com

Tigger2

Sorry, I lean with DF on this, and now is not the time to point fingers, let’s see if we can get some rational movement. Though, honestly, I’m not sure there is much you can do to stop a deranged guy with a gun who decides to kill people at a super soft target. :(

And that’s the thing. That’s what the NRA, the GOA, and their allies in Congress will argue, claiming liberals are politicising violence. I will damn well point my finger at those craven politicians who are prostrated before the almighty dollars of gun manufacturers, who did the same for tobacco companies and for the same reason. Election bux.

And then the next shooting. Then the next, then the next and the next. It is never the right time, not because liberals do not want a discussion on what can be done and how it might be achieved with conservatives.

It is because they don’t want to do anything. Not now, not ever. They do not care how many tens of thousands die. The tiniest regulation is fought with fear mongering and millions of dollars. How long was it that the NRA opposed appointing a new head for the ATF?

They do not want a solution. They are too paranoid and too far gone. They are beyond reason.

18
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:09:11pm

re: #16 Skip Intro

Both points are probably true.

19
Big Beautiful Door  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:09:49pm

I wish that Trump’s comments would cost him support, but unfortunately I’m expecting the opposite.

20
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:10:06pm

Rappin’ Bob Dylan with Kurtis Blow.

Youtube Video

21
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:10:23pm

Dear Donald Trump. Please go drown yourself. Me.

22
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:10:55pm

re: #2 Targetpractice

The effort now will be to argue that the shooter was so totally an illegal alien, even if he was born on US soil, because to swallow that a US citizen could be radicalized just doesn’t compute. Like San Bernardino, there has to be some angle that they can use to question his citizenship or suggest he wasn’t “truly” American.

Like judge Curiel

23
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:11:33pm
24
FormerDirtDart  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:13:04pm
25
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:14:12pm

re: #17 Anymouse

I’m not politicizing the Pulse shooting.

I’m finally getting around to demanding action on Columbine. VA Tech. Binghamton. Newtown. And all the suicides and homicides that don’t make national headlines.

And the Gabby Giffords attempted assassination.

The ones from 10 years ago. The ones from 5 years ago.

Not this shooting. Not this time.

I’m demanding action on all the rest.

But the GOP and NRA will thwart any and all action - as they continue doing.

26
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:14:51pm
27
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:15:02pm
28
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:15:10pm

re: #24 FormerDirtDart

Rick Scott refuses on CNN to acknowledge gay people were targeted at Orlando nightclub

because that would wreck the whole “Islamist Terror is a Threat to American Values” narrative…

29
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:15:25pm

re: #2 Targetpractice

The effort now will be to argue that the shooter was so totally an illegal alien, even if he was born on US soil, because to swallow that a US citizen could be radicalized just doesn’t compute. Like San Bernardino, there has to be some angle that they can use to question his citizenship or suggest he wasn’t “truly” American.

re: #22 dangerman

Like judge Curiel

Yup, Rep. Steve King has been arguing that about the grandchildren of undocumented immigrants for years (which would include me because my family fled the Nazis and Poles were prohibited from entering the USA as we were thought to be intellectually deficient).

I’m an atheist, though, so I can’t be patriotic, and should not be a citizen, as attributed to George HW Bush while I was serving in the US Navy. So I would be easy to deport //wetback family that swam the Atlantic //Christian oppressor //we’ll toss in liberal because why not

30
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:15:29pm

There are three four requirements I would put in place regarding guns:
1. No weapons that can fire more than one round per squeeze of the trigger. It must be illegal to modify a gun to do that, and guns would have to be hard to be modified that way (a shotgun would be hard to do as an automatic weapon).
2. All gun transfers must be registered.
3. A list showing people who cannot own a gun. Getting on the list requires the approval of a judge. A temporary state can be issued by a judge; a permanent entry requires a hearing.
4. (As recommended by #36 KGxvi)An insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

31
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:16:58pm

30 children were murdered along with thousands of others by people with guns. Crickets. But if the murderer can be linked to Islam by any means necessary, well, Bingo. We must do something. But not regulate guns. Or roll back sanctioned hatred of gays and Muslims. No. We must make political hay before the bodies are tagged. Vile. Vile. Vile.

32
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:17:54pm

re: #27 Kragar

The issue is you are a worthless ass kissing gutless pile of skin. *spit*

33
FormerDirtDart  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:18:16pm

re: #27 Kragar

“The issue isn’t the bathrooms they are using, the issue here is ideology”

34
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:19:36pm

re: #17 Anymouse

From two threads ago:

littlegreenfootballs.com

And that’s the thing. That’s what the NRA, the GOA, and their allies in Congress will argue, claiming liberals are politicising violence. I will damn well point my finger at those craven politicians who are prostrated before the almighty dollars of gun manufacturers, who did the same for tobacco companies and for the same reason. Election bux.

And then the next shooting. Then the next, then the next and the next. It is never the right time, not because liberals do not want a discussion on what can be done and how it might be achieved with conservatives.

It is because they don’t want to do anything. Not now, not ever. They do not care how many tens of thousands die. The tiniest regulation is fought with fear mongering and millions of dollars. How long was it that the NRA opposed appointing a new head for the ATF?

They do not want a solution. They are too paranoid and too far gone. They are beyond reason.

That comment under my name is not my comment, just so people know in case you didn’t click on the link.

This was my comment for that post.

“Yep the fact that they won’t try and do anything to help stop how easy it is to buy a gun in America is despicable.”

35
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:20:24pm

re: #33 FormerDirtDart

“The issue isn’t the bathrooms they are using, the issue here is ideology”

It’s still perfectly legal in Florida to fire someone because they’re gay. So, yes.

36
KGxvi  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:21:13pm

re: #30 Belafon

There are three requirements I would put in place regarding guns:
1. No weapons that can fire more than one round per squeeze of the trigger. It must be illegal to modify a gun to do that, and guns would have to be hard to be modified that way (a shotgun would be hard to do as an automatic weapon).
2. All gun transfers must be registered.
3. A list showing people who cannot own a gun. Getting on the list requires the approval of a judge. A temporary state can be issued by a judge; a permanent entry requires a hearing.

I’d add an insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

37
Archangelus  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:21:25pm

re: #27 Kragar

[Embedded content]

The killer’s ideology of targeting and killing LGBT people is no different than those of people whose support Rubio and the other GOP candidates pursued…

38
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:21:47pm

Turns out treating people as Untermenschen has side effects.

39
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:22:02pm

re: #36 KGxvi

I’d add an insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

I’ll take that as well.

40
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:22:08pm

re: #31 nines09

30 children were murdered along with thousands of others by people with guns. Crickets. But if the murderer can be linked to Islam by any means necessary, well, Bingo. We must do something. But not regulate guns. Or roll back sanctioned hatred of gays and Muslims. No. We must make political hay before the bodies are tagged. Vile. Vile. Vile.

Additionally, I’m absolutely positive that there won’t be any Pulse “truthers” who will claim that the mass murder was a staged “false flag” event like they did when a bunch of elementary school children were killed by a deranged white guy.

41
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:23:14pm

re: #30 Belafon

There are three requirements I would put in place regarding guns:
1. No weapons that can fire more than one round per squeeze of the trigger. It must be illegal to modify a gun to do that, and guns would have to be hard to be modified that way (a shotgun would be hard to do as an automatic weapon).
2. All gun transfers must be registered.
3. A list showing people who cannot own a gun. Getting on the list requires the approval of a judge. A temporary state can be issued by a judge; a permanent entry requires a hearing.

So if a person is deemed mentally unfit to own a gun by a physician or a psychiatrist, would you force them to report (in violation of privacy rights and HIPPA) to said list? How would you populate the list? How would you allow someone knowledge they are on the list? How could you contest your inclusion on the list?

These are all arguments that have been made before, and the gun apologist who makes your suggestion when faced with these questions will immediately argue that we can’t do that.

It goes back to Jim Wright and his Twitter war with a gun guy over this stuff. The real answer is this is the price we will pay, because we are held hostage by a minority organisation with a lot of money and craven politicians beholden to it.

Shall we open your medical records up to a government official to see if you are “fit” to possess a gun as determined by a judge? How would that record be determined to be sent to the judge?

Nope. Gun organisations won’t allow it; some of that is their own suggestions.

As also noted, they say we just need to enforce the law better. In Orlando this morning, that is exactly what the police said; they could do nothing, because the law was on the gunman’s side right up until he initiated his attack.

Therefore a Vietnam War of casualties every year is the price we will pay, because nothing can be done until the terrorist organisations that promote violence are removed from power.

42
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:24:01pm

re: #36 KGxvi

I’d add an insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

So, for the two hunting rifles I just received from my father that have been in the family for years I would need a one million dollar insurance policy to cover what exactly?

43
KGxvi  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:24:24pm

re: #36 KGxvi

Oh, and strict liability on injuries. If your gun is used to hurt or kill someone, you’re liable. Three affirmative defenses: self defense; defense of others (both subject to reasonable use/proportional force standards); and stolen gun where such theft is reported to law enforcement

44
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:24:33pm

re: #34 Tigger2

Hmm … I copied the link from the other thread, then copied-and-pasted the text.

If I got something wrong, tell me what it is and I will go upthread and fix it. I apologise if I misrepresented to you, that was not my intent.

45
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:25:03pm

re: #43 KGxvi

Oh, and strict liability on injuries. If your gun is used to hurt or kill someone, you’re liable. Three affirmative defenses: self defense; defense of others (both subject to reasonable use/proportional force standards); and stolen gun where such theft is reported to law enforcement

this one’s a winner

46
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:25:20pm

re: #40 Bill and Opus for 2016!

Additionally, I’m absolutely positive that there won’t be any Pulse “truthers” who will claim that the mass murder was a staged “false flag” event like they did when a bunch of elementary school children were killed by a deranged white guy.

Maybe like gods will, or reap what you sow, or some other very kind and considerate passage to wrap around a brick. Oh the love will be overflowing. Some in the religious community are just staining their shorts they’re so happy.

47
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:26:09pm

re: #42 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

So, for the two hunting rifles I just received from my father that have been in the family for years I would need a one million dollar insurance policy to cover what exactly?

I have a half-million dollars of liability insurance on my Smart. I have never caused an accident in almost half a century of driving. Costs very little. Should be no problem with a gun. If you could find an insurance company that would write an insane liability policy like that in the first place, because Vietnam War deaths=gun deaths in USA every year.

48
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:26:14pm

re: #36 KGxvi

I’d add an insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

insurance should be voluntary.
make the penalties costly enough and it becomes the responsibly attractive thing to do. or not.

49
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:26:28pm

re: #27 Kragar

“The issue isn’t the weapons they are using, the issue here is ideology.”

Homophobia is one area where fundamentalist Islam is totally in accord with fundamentalist Christianity…

50
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:27:00pm

re: #44 Anymouse

Hmm … I copied the link from the other thread, then copied-and-pasted the text.

If I got something wrong, tell me what it is and I will go upthread and fix it. I apologise if I misrepresented to you, that was not my intent.

No Problem, I just didn’t want to be seen as agreeing with DF over this gun issue. haha.

The only thing I worried about is people wouldn’t click on the link and see my comment and think the comment under my name agreeing with DF was mine.

I didn’t once think what your did was intentional.

51
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:28:19pm

re: #41 Anymouse

So if a person is deemed mentally unfit to own a gun by a physician or a psychiatrist, would you force them to report (in violation of privacy rights and HIPPA) to said list? How would you populate the list? How would you allow someone knowledge they are on the list? How could you contest your inclusion on the list?

These are all arguments that have been made before, and the gun apologist who makes your suggestion when faced with these questions will immediately argue that we can’t do that.

It goes back to Jim Wright and his Twitter war with a gun guy over this stuff. The real answer is this is the price we will pay, because we are held hostage by a minority organisation with a lot of money and craven politicians beholden to it.

Shall we open your medical records up to a government official to see if you are “fit” to possess a gun as determined by a judge? How would that record be determined to be sent to the judge?

Nope. Gun organisations won’t allow it; some of that is their own suggestions.

As also noted, they say we just need to enforce the law better. In Orlando this morning, that is exactly what the police said; they could do nothing, because the law was on the gunman’s side right up until he initiated his attack.

Therefore a Vietnam War of casualties every year is the price we will pay, because nothing can be done until the terrorist organisations that promote violence are removed from power.

I’m not saying this would be easy, especially right now.

As for the HIPPA thing, judges hear stuff frequently that cannot be made public. The reason for being on the list doesn’t have to be made public. But yes, it would also require this country to rethink what being mentally unfit to own a gun means.

52
Frankie Five Angels  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:28:20pm

re: #19 Big Beautiful Door

I wish that Trump’s comments would cost him support, but unfortunately I’m expecting the opposite.

I disagree. I think this is the beginning of the end of his campaign.

53
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:28:37pm

re: #48 dangerman

insurance should be voluntary.
make the penalties costly enough and it becomes the responsibly attractive thing to do. or not.

Penalties for misuse of a gun are already very high (if you are referring to gun insurance). Doesn’t stop the carnage of Vietnam every year.

For car insurance, damn straight insurance should be mandatory on public roads, we have a hundred years of malfeasance by drivers that proves we need it.

54
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:29:25pm

re: #52 Frankie Five Angels

I disagree. I think this is the beginning of the end of his campaign.

I would like to believe that the same things that helped his primary campaign will come home to roost in the general.

55
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:29:46pm

re: #51 Belafon

I’m not saying this would be easy, especially right now.

As for the HIPPA thing, judges hear stuff frequently that cannot be made public. The reason for being on the list doesn’t have to be made public. But yes, it would also require this country to rethink what being mentally unfit to own a gun means.

And the not right now argument. It is never the right time. There will never be a right time until the terrorist organisations that hold us all to their paranoid suicide pact are removed from power. They will not allow a right time.

If Sandy Hook and twenty-two dead children was not enough, fifty gays won’t be. There will never be a right time, because they don’t want to do anything at all. They are ghouls just as much as the tobacco industry.

56
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:30:16pm

re: #53 Anymouse

Penalties for misuse of a gun are already very high (if you are referring to gun insurance). Doesn’t stop the carnage of Vietnam every year.

For car insurance, damn straight insurance should be mandatory on public roads, we have a hundred years of malfeasance by drivers that proves we need it.

i was unclear. sorry - didnt mean cars. just guns.

57
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:30:48pm
58
Shiplord Kirel  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:31:09pm

Just in case:

I refuse to obey, or cooperate with, any law, regulation, or executive action designed to remove or exclude otherwise law abiding people from this country on the basis of their religious beliefs. If necessary, I will provide sanctuary and assistance to such persons to the limits of my ability.

I also think it is time for muncipal authorities around the country to declare Muslim sanctuary cities as a precaution against a Trump victory in November.

59
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:31:17pm

re: #47 Anymouse

I have a half-million dollars of liability insurance on my Smart. I have never caused an accident in almost half a century of driving. Costs very little. Should be no problem with a gun. If you could find an insurance company that would write an insane liability policy like that in the first place, because Vietnam War deaths=gun deaths in USA every year.

So I would have to have an insurance policy on an item I might use a few times a year? I get car insurance, i drive every day and there’s always a risk of accident. My rifles on the other hand are safely stored and only pulled out when I go to the range (which I have yet to do since getting them) or go hunting (again, haven’t done in years).

60
worldknot  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:31:23pm

re: #52 Frankie Five Angels

I disagree. I think this is the beginning of the end of his campaign.

He’ll finish a respectable third in Utah.

61
Eclectic Cyborg  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:31:27pm

re: #9 SteveMcGaziBolaGate RN

New product line:

Trump Guns and Ammo

Damn things would probably misfire horribly.

62
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:32:34pm

re: #53 Anymouse

Penalties for misuse of a gun are already very high (if you are referring to gun insurance). Doesn’t stop the carnage of Vietnam every year.

For car insurance, damn straight insurance should be mandatory on public roads, we have a hundred years of malfeasance by drivers that proves we need it.

Paying a little bit each month puts a strange pressure on people. People drive safer because of insurance, which in one sense you would think would be the exact opposite.

Psychologically, it’s also why the ACA includes the penalty for not having insurance, and why Australia fines people a very small amount if they do not vote.

63
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:32:41pm
64
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:32:56pm

re: #46 nines09

Maybe like gods will, or reap what you sow, or some other very kind and considerate passage to wrap around a brick. Oh the love will be overflowing. Some in the religious community are just staining their shorts they’re so happy.

Oh, like our Lt. Governor here in Texas did five hours after the mass shooting:

65
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:33:21pm
66
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:33:25pm

re: #6 Kragar

[Embedded content]

67
Eclectic Cyborg  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:33:49pm

I love the “if only X were armed!” people.

Oh yeah, crowded dimly lit nightclub with loud music blaring. What could possibly go wrong?

68
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:33:54pm

re: #55 Anymouse

And the not right now argument. It is never the right time. There will never be a right time until the terrorist organisations that hold us all to their paranoid suicide pact are removed from power. They will not allow a right time.

If Sandy Hook and twenty-two dead children was not enough, fifty gays won’t be. There will never be a right time, because they don’t want to do anything at all. They are ghouls just as much as the tobacco industry.

Just to make sure, I’m not saying we shouldn’t pursue it. I just realize it’s not going to be easy, especially with the Republicans in Congress. Most of the things posed have been shown to be acceptable by the majority of the public, including Republicans.

69
mmmirele  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:34:10pm

re: #58 Shiplord Kirel

Just in case:

I refuse to obey, or cooperate with, any law, regulation, or executive action designed to remove or exclude otherwise law abiding people from this country on the basis of their religious beliefs. If necessary, I will provide sanctuary and assistance to such persons to the limits of my ability.

I also think it is time for muncipal authorities around the country to declare Muslim sanctuary cities as a precaution against a Trump victory in November.

Agreed. I stand with you.

70
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:34:18pm

Speaker from the Orlando GBLT says the death toll is still “only fifty.” (Orlando Fire says fifty-nine.) She says that’s good.

What sort of a country are we that only fifty dead is good?

71
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:34:29pm
72
Eclectic Cyborg  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:34:56pm

re: #70 Anymouse

Speaker from the Orlando GBLT says the death toll is still “only fifty.” (Orlando Fire says fifty-nine.) She says that’s good.

What sort of a country are we that only fifty dead is good?

I just said the exact same thing to my wife.

73
TedStriker  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:35:13pm

re: #61 Eclectic Cyborg

Damn things would probably misfire horribly bigly.

FTFY…

74
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:35:13pm

re: #53 Anymouse

Penalties for misuse of a gun are already very high (if you are referring to gun insurance). Doesn’t stop the carnage of Vietnam every year.

For car insurance, damn straight insurance should be mandatory on public roads, we have a hundred years of malfeasance by drivers that proves we need it.

But we don’t really have strict liability for gun misuse. E.g., incidents relating to poorly secured guns that a child gets into etc. are often officially classified as ‘accidents’, perhaps because the person who screwed up is usually a grieving relative.

So follow Jim Wright’s modest proposal: “There is no such thing as an accidental discharge.” At law, eliminate the concept of an accidental discharge. There are only deliberate discharges and negligent discharges, and if someone is injured or killed because of such, follow ordinary civil and criminal liability principles.

75
Frankie Five Angels  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:35:16pm

From downstairs:
He’s finished. His moron base will eat it up but his candidacy is over now. Every single Republican in office and the GOP will be asked to respond to his tweets all week.

76
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:35:28pm

re: #62 Belafon

Paying a little bit each month puts a strange pressure on people. People drive safer because of insurance, which in one sense you would think would be the exact opposite.

Psychologically, it’s also why the ACA includes the penalty for not having insurance, and why Australia fines people a very small amount if they do not vote.

maybe for some.

far more severe and swift threats of losing your freedom, house, savings, family,. future, and continuing right to own a gun would be great reasons to behave responsibly, and voluntarily get insurance, a safe, watch who you sell to etc.

77
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:35:42pm
78
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:36:07pm

re: #68 Belafon

Just to make sure, I’m not saying we shouldn’t pursue it. I just realize it’s not going to be easy, especially with the Republicans in Congress. Most of the things posed have been shown to be acceptable by the majority of the public, including Republicans.

But not Republican politicians financed by the NRA. That is why the Sandy Hook bill died.

There will never be a right time because the NRA, the GOA, and the GOP will never allow it. A Vietnam every year so they can sell more guns.

79
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:36:33pm
80
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:36:56pm

re: #24 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

I’m not surprised at all that PRICK Scott won’t utter the word “gay”…

81
Eclectic Cyborg  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:37:57pm

re: #80 Joe Bacon

Heh, Prick Scott. How come I never thought of that?

82
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:38:15pm

re: #74 EPR-radar

But we don’t really have strict liability for gun misuse. E.g., incidents relating to poorly secured guns that a child gets into etc. are often officially classified as ‘accidents’, perhaps because the person who screwed up is usually a grieving relative.

So follow Jim Wright’s modest proposal: “There is no such thing as an accidental discharge.” At law, eliminate the concept of an accidental discharge. There are only deliberate discharges and negligent discharges, and if someone is injured or killed because of such, follow ordinary civil and criminal liability principles.

yeah this.
control your weapon.
accept the consequences if you dont

83
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:38:18pm

re: #78 Anymouse

But not Republican politicians financed by the NRA. That is why the Sandy Hook bill died.

There will never be a right time because the NRA, the GOA, and the GOP will never allow it. A Vietnam every year so they can sell more guns.

There will never be a correct time for NRA financed Republicans (and possibly one NRA financed Independent). So, first, we have to fix that.

84
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:38:41pm

re: #30 Belafon

There are three four requirements I would put in place regarding guns:
1. No weapons that can fire more than one round per squeeze of the trigger. It must be illegal to modify a gun to do that, and guns would have to be hard to be modified that way (a shotgun would be hard to do as an automatic weapon).
2. All gun transfers must be registered.
3. A list showing people who cannot own a gun. Getting on the list requires the approval of a judge. A temporary state can be issued by a judge; a permanent entry requires a hearing.
4. (As recommended by #36 KGxvi)An insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

Especially #4. Want a gun? You first have to buy the mandated insurance policy!

85
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:39:34pm
86
ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:39:58pm

Charles, can you do anything about the freaking Honda car ad that plays and can’t be controlled in any manner. Not only can’t it be controlled it is way loud on volume and the page wants to keep snapping to it again and again. And no I do not have flash enabled. it links to a t4.liverail.com and then goes to central Ohio Honda dealers.

It is the space just under your donation panel

Outside that…see you later…I can’t use the damn site like this. It was hard to even get this message typed. It sucks. And it really diminishes your site.

87
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:40:38pm

re: #85 jaunte

Speaking of which:

88
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:41:35pm

re: #78 Anymouse

But not Republican politicians financed by the NRA. That is why the Sandy Hook bill died.

There will never be a right time because the NRA, the GOA, and the GOP will never allow it. A Vietnam every year so they can sell more guns.

I think it fair to describe the ongoing carnage in the US due to nearly non-existent gun control as human sacrifices to the true gods of movement conservatism.

89
Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:41:47pm

re: #75 Frankie Five Angels

From downstairs:
He’s finished. His moron base will eat it up but his candidacy is over now. Every single Republican in office and the GOP will be asked to respond to his tweets all week.

You assume responsibility from the media that I do not presume exists.

90
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:41:59pm

re: #75 Frankie Five Angels

From downstairs:
He’s finished. His moron base will eat it up but his candidacy is over now. Every single Republican in office and the GOP will be asked to respond to his tweets all week.

And they will continue along in their human centipede. They will waffle, and they will change the topic to Radical Islamic Terrorism and why won’t Obama say it? They did it with San Bernardino, they did it with Boston (they didn’t do that with Charleston or Colorado Springs).

To be a conservative means you have to be able to wall off reason from emotion, and let emotion rule. That is why Obama is coming for your guns after seven years is so effective, and they are shifting that message to Hillary Clinton now.

Until groups like the NRA are declared terrorist groups in their own right, nothing will be done. A Vietnam every year for election bux.

Now if we could get the conservative voters to swallow the idea that the NRA is full of Mexican Muslim Kenyan atheists, they’d demand a shutdown in a second.

91
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:42:03pm
92
Eclectic Cyborg  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:42:14pm

re: #87 jaunte

Because ISIS is so fucking easy to find…

93
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:42:46pm

re: #44 Anymouse

Hmm … I copied the link from the other thread, then copied-and-pasted the text.

If I got something wrong, tell me what it is and I will go upthread and fix it. I apologise if I misrepresented to you, that was not my intent.

actual link
littlegreenfootballs.com

94
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:42:50pm

re: #79 Kragar

They’ve infiltrated and taken over. It’s the creeping Sharia that the Islamophobes have been warning about. Run for your lives. Flee. /Geller-Denethor II

95
GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:42:57pm

re: #86 ObserverArt

At this point. And I know Charles doesn’t like it. But install an ad blocker so you are able to use the site.

96
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:43:20pm

Phoenix LGBT
twitter.com

Three tweets, and the first one endorses Trump. Sure.

97
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:43:36pm

re: #85 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I miss Kaili Joy Gray over at Wonkette. She left when someone there described a conservative politician as a “dimwit” and she left in a huff over perceived bigotry for abelism. She has not been back.

98
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:43:44pm

re: #61 Eclectic Cyborg

Damn things would probably misfire horribly.

Yeah, but it wouldn’t be his fault.

99
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:44:00pm

re: #40 Bill and Opus for 2016!

Additionally, I’m absolutely positive that there won’t be any Pulse “truthers” who will claim that the mass murder was a staged “false flag” event like they did when a bunch of elementary school children were killed by a deranged white guy.

Alex Jones and his stooge Dan Bidondi will start the False Flag bullshit in 10…9…8…7…

100
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:44:36pm

re: #91 jaunte

That’s pathetic, even for Trump. Especially since the Log Cabin and/or GOProud fools can probably be brought on board for the Trump clown car easily enough, if they aren’t there already, and really are LGBT organizations (sigh).

101
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:45:52pm

re: #64 Bill and Opus for 2016!

Oh, like our Lt. Governor here in Texas did five hours after the mass shooting:

Embedded Image

We are all Gods children, are we not? I suspect he liked what happened. Gods will and all. I guess it would be un-Christian of me to wish the same befall him? Let us prey.

102
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:46:05pm
103
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:46:33pm

re: #91 jaunte

[Embedded content]

It’s curious. There’s a website the account links to that seems legit. Could someone else have created an account to that link? Yes, but I’m not good enough to figure it out.

104
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:08pm

re: #67 Eclectic Cyborg

I love the “if only X were armed!” people.

Oh yeah, crowded dimly lit nightclub with loud music blaring. What could possibly go wrong?

It’s the same idiotic “reasoning” that results in things like this.

105
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:25pm

re: #102 jaunte

[Embedded content]

He does look like Frodo.

106
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:39pm

re: #103 Belafon

Yes, you can set up a twitter account under any name, and put any link in it. All you need is an email address.

107
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:40pm

re: #64 Bill and Opus for 2016!

Oh, like our Lt. Governor here in Texas did five hours after the mass shooting:

Embedded Image

I hope Karma gives Dan Patrick the bite in the ass that he so richly deserves!

108
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:48pm

re: #87 jaunte

Speaking of which:

[Embedded content]

Ah. One more lamprey speaks up. Habana Teddy would just nuke them. There. Now back to shutting down goverment….

109
Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:47:59pm

Tragic to hear about what happened in Orlando. I did not find out until I was catching up on news this evening. I will have to see if I can pick up on how the French media is reporting on it in the morning.

A couple of photos from today’s travels:

Distance shot of Mont St Michael
A piece of nice embroidary that someone kept around for 900 years*
On the wall in the Bayeax Tapestry museum in a couple of places.

* - Photo is not of the actual Tapestry since photography (rightfully) is banned in the display area. However, a reproduction (painting/photo?) of the whole thing is on a wall elsewhere in the museum and you can photograph that all you want.

110
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:48:52pm

re: #106 jaunte

Yes, you can set up a twitter account under any name, and put any link in it. All you need is an email address.

That I knew. Someone needs to track back to the actual website owners and find out if they did it.

111
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:49:37pm

re: #102 jaunte

He looks pissed that he didn’t get to kill a bunch of fucking queers.

Edit: I’m gay, I’m pissed, I’m using the word because it’s what they want to do.

112
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:50:44pm
113
KGxvi  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:50:53pm

I’ve another thought on guns. Haven’t flushed it out but something along the lines of licensing requiring periodic renewal that requires testing on usage and safety.

114
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:51:08pm

re: #110 Belafon

That I knew. Someone needs to track back to the actual website owners and find out if they did it.

The linked website is in the UK!

115
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:51:14pm

re: #92 Eclectic Cyborg

Nuke ‘em from orbit. That’s the only way to be sure. It happens to be the GOP mantra. Trump was open to using nukes. Cruz was willing to carpet bomb.

Never mind that none of them can identify specific areas to target without hitting an incredible number of civilians who are not IS - civilians, refugees, and even those fighting IS.

Target IS? Easier said than done (and it’s already being done).

Target their money? Again, easier said than done (and it’s already being done).

Target leadership? Missed any/all of the UAV strikes and news on that front, because Trump certainly seems to have.

This is not some easy to define enemy. It’s not some nation-state where you can take over the capital and force a government to surrender. It’s a terror group that lives in the shadow of failed states and where borders have no meaning. It’s where terrorists who are not directly related can suddenly call themselves members.

116
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:52:38pm

re: #104 Skip Intro

One thing wrong with that. They show the terrorists with box cutters. If you were allowed to pack, they would have pistols too. But thinking hurts. Bad.

117
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:52:58pm

re: #103 Belafon

It’s curious. There’s a website the account links to that seems legit. Could someone else have created an account to that link? Yes, but I’m not good enough to figure it out.

Troll twitter accounts have been known to link to legitimate websites.

118
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:53:16pm

re: #111 stpaulbear

Comment edited so that it can’t be nutpicked. Please refresh.

119
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:53:33pm

re: #87 jaunte

120
Shiplord Kirel  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:54:40pm

re: #101 nines09

We are all Gods children, are we not? I suspect he liked what happened. Gods will and all. I guess it would be un-Christian of me to wish the same befall him? Let us prey.

Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick: “A man reaps what he sows.”

Remember that when Texas turns blue, Dan.

121
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:54:48pm

re: #116 nines09

No solution is too simple minded to not win over the Republican voter.

122
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:55:51pm

re: #103 Belafon

It’s curious. There’s a website the account links to that seems legit. Could someone else have created an account to that link? Yes, but I’m not good enough to figure it out.

Brand new account and the followers are a cesspool of Trump and anti-Muslim.

123
Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:56:39pm
Serious Gull is Serious
124
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:56:39pm

re: #114 Stanley Sea

The linked website is in the UK!

Thanks. I’ll just claim laziness now.

125
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:57:07pm
126
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:58:18pm

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

Troll twitter accounts have been known to link to legitimate websites.

Yep. Just wanted to be sure. I don’t see LGBT people supporting Trump, but then again, Log Cabin Republicans support the party because their taxes are too high. But someone pointed out to me that it’s a UK site.

127
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:58:47pm

re: #125 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

that would be homegrown American terrorism, Bryan.
Like you.

128
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 2:58:49pm

re: #120 Shiplord Kirel

Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick: “A man reaps what he sows.”

Remember that when Texas turns blue, Dan.

I think a lot of these weekend Christians think they will sit at the Throne when they pass on. That’s funny, seeing what they have done for and to the least of us.

129
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:00:00pm

re: #102 jaunte

Oh, he seems nice. /

130
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:00:23pm

re: #125 gocart mozart

131
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:00:42pm

re: #113 KGxvi

I’ve another thought on guns. Haven’t flushed it out but something along the lines of licensing requiring periodic renewal that requires testing on usage and safety.

That takes us back to Auto the Orphaned Right. Autos were absolutely protected, could not register, license drivers, require insurance, impede speed or even install a bloody stop sign.

They lost their absolute right because the Constitution allows the government to write laws to protect the public. It took about forty years, but cars were finally brought under control in every state. We haven’t even started on guns yet, so at least forty years of a Vietnam every year.

132
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:00:42pm

re: #123 Feline Fearless Leader

“Where did you park your car again?”

133
PhillyPretzel  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:02:10pm

re: #132 nines09

I see the black Volvo from here.

134
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:02:48pm

The pastor came over to the church across the street from my house. After the moment of silence called for by the Mayor of Orlando, she is now tolling the bell of the church.

135
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:03:30pm

re: #125 gocart mozart

136
Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:04:31pm

G’night Lizards. One more photo. It’s from a visit yesterday to the Utah and Omaha Beach areas in Normandy and just seems appropriate for today.

It was taken at the US Military Cemetery in Colleville-sur-Mer which lies just above Omaha Beach.

137
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:04:51pm
138
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:05:04pm
139
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:05:43pm

re: #135 Kragar

Yup. He was ecstatic over Colorado Springs. (Once he was done with calling it Radical Islamic Terror. When Dear was arrested, he went in on baby parts derp. I had to listen to that derp around here for weeks, seemingly my wife and I the only voices of sanity trying to talk the folk in my town down there were no baby parts, it was a fraud to push buttons.)

140
Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:05:47pm

re: #132 nines09

“Where did you park your car again?”

Not so funny since I did get hit on the hand by seagull droppings there. Almost got the camera as well!

141
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:06:32pm

re: #138 jaunte

Those lazy Muslim Americans are far sneakier than white Americans.

//

142
Bill and Opus for 2016!  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:07:23pm

re: #7 unproven innocence

So he’s calling for an Enabling Act, and to be appointed President by acclimation. No need for elections. Think of the money we’ll all save!

If you read Hitler’s speech regarding the Enabling Act, it could literally be given today by a member of the Republican Party only requiring the change of a single word (change Germany to the United States). It is almost identical to speeches they are giving today.

143
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:07:36pm

re: #129 lawhawk

Looks white. Obviously mentally ill, not a terrorist.

144
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:08:13pm

re: #140 Feline Fearless Leader

Not so funny since I did get hit on the hand by seagull droppings there. Almost got the camera as well!

You should have started feeding them. You would have made so many news friends so fast……

145
Dave In Austin  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:08:25pm

re: #91 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Please pass this on to all your lgbt friends…. Mine are outraged.

146
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:09:04pm

We need to stop immigration of Hoosiers until we can figure out what is going on. - Donald J. Trump, maybe.

After the Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, I wrote the Scottsbluff paper an op-ed which they ran, after my state governor went off on derp about Syrian refugees, that we should by his request ban all Colorado citizens from Nebraska until we can vet them properly.

147
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:10:11pm

Bathroom panic panderer Greg Abbott so sad now that “Floridians” have been targeted in a terrorist attack.

148
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:10:15pm
149
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:11:10pm

re: #129 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Oh, he seems nice. /

It appears he likes cars, can’t hold a job, and thinks Hillary is the same as Hitler….

facebook.com

150
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:11:56pm
151
Buyers Remorse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:12:05pm

They are starting to release names of some of the victim’s, wouldn’t it be a surprise if Rush Limbaugh was among them. My thoughts and prayers to all loved ones affected by this terrorist attack.

152
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:12:10pm

re: #147 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Bathroom panic panderer Greg Abbott so sad now that “Floridians” have been targeted in a terrorist attack.

Governor Abbot, did you use some of your campaign funds from Donald Trump for that flag?

153
unproven innocence  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:12:12pm

re: #142 Bill and Opus for 2016!

If you read Hitler’s speech regarding the Enabling Act, it could literally be given today by a member of the Republican Party only requiring the change of a single word (change Germany to the United States). It is almost identical to speeches they are giving today.

I expect to know soon whether my assessment was accurate: [edit] near bottom of page. donaldjtrump.com

Tomorrow Mr. Trump will deliver a major speech to further address this terrorist attack, immigration, and national security. The speech will be delivered at the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at St. Anselm’s College. For more information please visit donaldjtrump.com.

154
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:12:23pm

re: #131 Anymouse

That takes us back to Auto the Orphaned Right. Autos were absolutely protected, could not register, license drivers, require insurance, impede speed or even install a bloody stop sign.

They lost their absolute right because the Constitution allows the government to write laws to protect the public. It took about forty years, but cars were finally brought under control in every state. We haven’t even started on guns yet, so at least forty years of a Vietnam every year.

There was no obstacle to automobile regulation comparable to the second amendment. The protections for automobiles were common law principles which are inherently subject to revision as new cases come up.

155
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:12:47pm

re: #125 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

156
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:13:15pm

re: #150 gocart mozart

Assumes facts not in evidence (class).

157
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:13:33pm

re: #147 jaunte

I guess a rainbow flag would have caused concern amongst the faithful? Pandering as an art form. Can you feel my concern? Let me show you. See? A Florida flag. Bought down at the vacant gas station from a man in a van. Only one he had. Out of flagstaffs…..

158
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:14:18pm
159
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:14:37pm

re: #147 jaunte

The rainbow flag would be much more to the point.

160
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:14:48pm

re: #157 nines09

Abbott’s obliterating the identity of the victims and pretending he’s honoring them; it’s disgusting.

161
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:15:51pm

re: #160 jaunte

Abbott’s obliterating the identity of the victims and pretending he’s honoring them; it’s disgusting.

Means as much to him as that flag on his lapel. Window dressing on an empty soul.

162
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:16:17pm

re: #160 jaunte

Abbott’s obliterating the identity of the victims and pretending he’s honoring them; it’s disgusting.

Please let Lou Costello rise from the grave and slap Abbott around…

163
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:16:55pm

re: #154 EPR-radar

There was no obstacle to automobile regulation comparable to the second amendment. The protections for automobiles were common law principles which are inherently subject to revision as new cases come up.

Autos were repeatedly found under ancient common law (anything you can push, pull, or drag over the landscape), the Right to Travel (IX Amendment), and X Amendment (left to the people). State after state had every regulation they wrote struck down from number plates to tests to speed limits to drivers’ licenses as unconstitutional.

If you read the document, which is the history of the AAA and the American Wheelman’s Association, fighting any auto regulations whatsoever, they were just as powerful and successful as the NRA for over forty years. It was not until the 1930’s they started losing cases, and they still won them occasionally until the 1950’s.

At that point, the courts finally started ruling the Government has an absolute right to protect public safety.

164
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:17:11pm

re: #161 nines09

Means as much to him as that flag on his lapel. Window dressing on an empty soul.

And that flag pin on his lapel is probably made in China…

165
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:17:41pm

re: #160 jaunte

Abbott’s obliterating the identity of the victims and pretending he’s honoring them; it’s disgusting.

Of course it’s disgusting. Disgusting GOP elected officials get voted into office by disgusting GOP constituents to be disgusting. That’s the whole point of that sorry excuse for a political party.

166
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:18:23pm

Abbot didn’t fly the Colorado flag when an Army mother was killed at Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, along with two others.

167
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:19:52pm

re: #154 EPR-radar

There was no obstacle to automobile regulation comparable to the second amendment. The protections for automobiles were common law principles which are inherently subject to revision as new cases come up.

that’s why i think arguing the 2A or lobbying for restrictions certain to be opposed are not winners.

i think the inroad is in laying bare the idea that a right without any accountability is so an absurd position to hold that it can’t really be done.

the goal is force the gun lobby to embrace this:
control your weapon.
accept swift and sever consequences if you dont

or they are actively advocating for a right that carries no personal responsibility for behavior that can have devastating effects on other citizens.

it doesn’t require them to do anything but acknowledge the position they’ve always held. we are responsible. it’s others who aren’t.

you get that far, the rest is details

168
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:20:18pm

re: #164 Joe Bacon

There are some that are made here. Point is, it’s all window dressing. He doesn’t give a rats ass. It’s just political hay making time. Three week from now he’ll be back fighting against LGBT rights.

169
De Kolta Chair  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:20:34pm

An El W twofer:

170
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:20:53pm

re: #163 Anymouse

Autos were repeatedly found under ancient common law (anything you can push, pull, or drag over the landscape), the Right to Travel (IX Amendment), and X Amendment (left to the people). State after state had every regulation they wrote struck down from number plates to tests to speed limits to drivers’ licenses as unconstitutional.

If you read the document, which is the history of the AAA and the American Wheelman’s Association, fighting any auto regulations whatsoever, they were just as powerful and successful as the NRA for over forty years. It was not until the 1930’s they started losing cases, and they still won them occasionally until the 1950’s.

At that point, the courts finally started ruling the Government has an absolute right to protect public safety.

I did read that article. It was very interesting, and thanks for the link. However, I stand by my original point that there was no obstacle to automobile regulation that was nearly as formidable as the second amendment.

171
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:21:59pm

Orlando suspect’s father hosted a TV show and now pretends to be Afghanistan’s president

The father of Omar Mateen, identified by police as the man behind the carnage at an Orlando nightclub early Sunday morning, is an Afghan man who holds strong political views, including support for the Afghan Taliban. In a video he posted on Saturday, he appears to be portraying himself as the president of Afghanistan.

Just great. Another lunatic.

washingtonpost.com

172
nines09  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:22:04pm

re: #169 De Kolta Chair

An El W twofer:

[Embedded content]

Where’s King Cheetos other hand? Groping a feel? Coping a squeeze? Down his own pants? What a load.

173
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:22:05pm

re: #167 dangerman

… or they are actively advocating for a right that carries no personal responsibility for behavior that can have devastating effects on other citizens.

it doesn’t require them to do anything but acknowledge the position they’ve always held. we are responsible. it’s others who aren’t.

you get that far, the rest is details

But that is what they argue for, the same as the AAA. An absolute right that carries no personal responsibility. They will need to be taken to court time and time again until that absolute right is curtailed just as autos were.

In the meantime, a Vietnam War Wall every year.

174
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:23:42pm
175
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:24:38pm

re: #170 EPR-radar

I did read that article. It was very interesting, and thanks for the link. However, I stand by my original point that there was no obstacle to automobile regulation that was nearly as formidable as the second amendment.

Forty years of Supreme Court rulings in favour of auto owners.

That was pretty formidable.

Still waiting for the NRA to argue for Article 1, where the government arms the militia and dictates the training to the states. Haven’t heard a peep on that one.

That might be the way to argue the case. Congress is abdicating its responsibilities under the Constitution (much like Judge Garland) to the NRA.

176
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:25:15pm

re: #167 dangerman

I agree that trying to oblige the gun lobby to live up to their own responsibility rhetoric is probably the best near-term strategy to take. For now it is as doomed as all other reasonable politics by the corruption of Republicans and conservatives, but it does the best job of keeping the issues focused for future reference.

177
worldknot  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:26:04pm

re: #159 EPR-radar

The rainbow flag would be much more to the point.

Not flying it was the point.

178
ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:26:55pm

re: #86 ObserverArt

Okay, the damn ad that was causing my issues didn’t load this time.

I did some checking and it seems anything from any form of liverail. com can be problematic in browsers. Also I saw t4.liverail. com listed as an ad malware site. Just getting into it, but it sounds like a site Charles would want to check into…if he hasn’t run up against it already.

It also seems to hint it uses Facebook coding or something to do with Facebook.

Back to reading the comments, but I don’t know how much I can take. This whole Orlando club attack and murders is mentally fatiguing. Add in all the stupid politics and it is just too damn much.

179
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:27:09pm
180
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:27:10pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

I agree that trying to oblige the gun lobby to live up to their own responsibility rhetoric is probably the best near-term strategy to take. For now it is as doomed as all other reasonable politics by the corruption of Republicans and conservatives, but it does the best job of keeping the issues focused for future reference.

And never, ever let the NRA, Republicans, or conservatives say “now is not the time to talk about it.” Every day is the time to talk about it, every murder, every suicide, every negligent handling of a gun, until the public moves against the NRA and they change their position.

That would take a liberal press.

181
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:27:11pm
182
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:27:50pm

The real reason for those AR-15 sales!

Inadequacy…
183
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:28:02pm

re: #173 Anymouse

But that is what they argue for, the same as the AAA. An absolute right that carries no personal responsibility. They will need to be taken to court time and time again until that absolute right is curtailed just as autos were.

In the meantime, a Vietnam War Wall every year.

maybe i’m splitting hairs. as i see it:

“we want to own whatever we want”
“and we’re always responsible, so what’s the problem?”
“ok, yeah some arent” (ie the #gunfails).
“but that’s not us”

ok, so why not swift and hard punishment for them?

uh… .(cause one day it might be us?)

184
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:28:26pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

I agree that trying to oblige the gun lobby to live up to their own responsibility rhetoric is probably the best near-term strategy to take. For now it is as doomed as all other reasonable politics by the corruption of Republicans and conservatives, but it does the best job of keeping the issues focused for future reference.

thx. yes.

185
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:28:59pm
186
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:30:15pm

re: #179 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

“words are only words”…
Well, so are those pandering “thoughts and prayers” that aren’t backed up by any semblance of action to address the problem.

187
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:31:06pm

re: #159 EPR-radar

The rainbow flag would be much more to the point.

Forget it EPR, its Texas. If Gov. Abbott ran up a rainbow flag all he’d get was abuse. Putting up a Florida flag keeps his fellow Texans from making asses of themselves.

188
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:32:01pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

Forget it EPR, its Texas. If Gov. Abbott ran up a rainbow flag all he’d get was abuse. Putting up a Florida flag keeps his fellow Texans from making asses of themselves.

Too late…

:D

189
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:32:01pm

Leadership.

190
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:32:23pm

re: #175 Anymouse

Forty years of Supreme Court rulings in favour of auto owners.

That was pretty formidable.

Still waiting for the NRA to argue for Article 1, where the government arms the militia and dictates the training to the states. Haven’t heard a peep on that one.

That might be the way to argue the case. Congress is abdicating its responsibilities under the Constitution (much like Judge Garland) to the NRA.

Those 40 years of supreme court rulings were just case law. At that level, what one supreme court does another one later on can undo at will.

For automobiles, we really did see a change from operating it is an absolute right to operating it is a privilege (and a heavily licensed and regulated privilege).

The second amendment most likely prevent changing from a concept of a “right to keep and bear arms” to a “privilege to keep and bear arms”.

191
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:32:48pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

Forget it EPR, its Texas. If Gov. Abbott ran up a rainbow flag all he’d get was abuse. Putting up a Florida flag keeps his fellow Texans from making asses of themselves.

My brother-in-law lives near Houston. He is livid at Governor Abbot’s gutless pandering, and thinks the Governor’s Mansion should be lit up in rainbow colours tonight … he called the governor’s office to tell him so.

192
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:33:58pm

re: #189 jaunte

Leadership.

The kind of leadership you don’t want to step in.

193
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:34:35pm

re: #190 EPR-radar

Those 40 years of supreme court rulings were just case law. At that level, what one supreme court does another one later on can undo at will.

For automobiles, we really did see a change from operating it is an absolute right to operating it is a privilege (and a heavily licensed and regulated privilege).

The second amendment most likely prevent changing from a concept of a “right to keep and bear arms” to a “privilege to keep and bear arms”.

Nope. Congress shall dictate the training of the militia and arm it. Article 1, section 8. The II Amendment did not change that. The states shall appoint the officers of the militia. II Amendment did not change that.

The absolute right to own a gun was also decided by a court case, DC v Heller, and even that case allows for regulation. That case can be overturned just as the AAA cases were.

194
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:35:08pm

“We have a right under our religious beliefs to ostracize, demean, and treat all gays as second-class citizens!”

“A terrorist just shot up a gay nightclub and killed 50 people! And he’s a Muslim!”

“Oh, this horrific tragedy is just further proof that we need to address a homophobia that is endemic to Islam and those who believe in it! A non-Muslim would never use their religion to spread hate towards gay people. Now excuse me as I dry hump the American flag!”

195
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:36:35pm

re: #190 EPR-radar

The second amendment most likely prevent changing from a concept of a “right to keep and bear arms” to a “privilege to keep and bear arms”.

let them have the “right to keep and bear arms”
permanently weld accountability and responsibility to it.
keep the light shined on it

196
makeitstop  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:36:49pm

re: #113 KGxvi

I’ve another thought on guns. Haven’t flushed it out but something along the lines of licensing requiring periodic renewal that requires testing on usage and safety.

Guns should be issued with a title. Just like cars.

197
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:38:05pm

Well, can’t say we didn’t see this coming:

A member of the mosque complained that a woman in an SUV who was dressed in a shirt with the word “Pride” in rainbow colors said to get out of America and that someone was coming back to kill them, according to police logs.

Two members of the Islamic Association of Tarrant County board of directors said that they weren’t at the mosque when the threat was reported but that they had received a text message about it.

198
De Kolta Chair  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:38:44pm

re: #174 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

Video

;-[) As you probably know, that’s Sid Fields playing the landlord. Like Blaze Starr, he was a legendary figure in burlesque (baddaboom!).

199
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:38:49pm

re: #195 dangerman

let them have the “right to keep and bear arms”
permanently weld accountability and responsibility to it.
keep the light shined on it

What part of “shall not be infringed” don’t you understand!!!uno!11eleventy!1one!

What about “well regulated?”

That refers to keeping your weapons in working order!!111!!1uno!!one!!!111!

200
Dave In Austin  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:39:27pm

For your various avi’s….

201
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:39:46pm
202
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:40:10pm

re: #196 makeitstop

Guns should be issued with a title. Just like cars.

not necessary. the owner has total physical and legal control over whatever that gun does or is done with that gun. hold him accountable.

virtually every gun can be traced from its point of manufacture to some last owner. don’t want that to be you? lots of ways to prove you dont own it any more and took reasonable and prudent steps in your transfer to the next person

203
Reality Based Steve  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:41:02pm

It appears that the RW spin on Obamas statement on Orlando is boiling down to Obama: ‘We’ are to blame, not Islamic terrorism, for massacre.

Now as a reasonable and semi-rational person I figured that just didn’t sound correct to me, so a quick review of the actual text of the statement showed that there isn’t a damn thing in it that could be interpeted in that way. Now I’m stuck with my surprised face.

RBS

204
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:41:09pm
205
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:42:01pm

re: #193 Anymouse

I think we have a difference of opinion on how far SCOTUS interpretation of the constitution can go. The whole present day regime of automobile licensing etc. is predicated on the notion that no “rights” are involved. At all. I still remember that’s the first thing they tell you in driver’s ed.

As much as I’d like to see the same kind of licensing, insurance and regulation regime applied to guns, I don’t think there is any way to make that consistent with the second amendment. Subject to interpretation by SCOTUS, which can and will change, there is a right to keep and bear arms, and that right, if it exists at all, is enough to set up a conflict with a totally rights-free regulatory scheme, as we have for automobiles.

206
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:42:57pm
207
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:43:14pm

All American males concerned about terrorism, also concerned that Clay Aiken is politicizing these killings in the wrong way.

208
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:43:20pm

re: #196 makeitstop

Guns should be issued with a title. Just like cars.

I rather like the Israeli method: One gun per license. Separate licenses for handguns and long arms, with an individual only allowed to have one of each. And the gun is registered to the license, so you can’t just say “Well, I have a license for a handgun and this is a handgun, so it’s legal.”

209
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:44:43pm

re: #202 dangerman

not necessary. the owner has total physical and legal control over whatever that gun does or is done with that gun. hold him accountable.

virtually every gun can be traced from its point of manufacture to some last owner. don’t want that to be you? lots of ways to prove you dont own it any more and took reasonable and prudent steps in your transfer to the next person

Nope. Can’t be traced. Can only be traced to the first buyer. Can disappear immediately and go through twenty hands legally before it ends up with a criminal.

Yup. Title. Automatically require transfer just as a house or car. If stolen, that would require a gun owner to report it stolen.

When I lived in Oklahoma, there was a case in my town of a person whose fingerprints were on the gun of a killer. The police questioned him, and then he said his guns were stolen, but he thought the government had no right to know if he owned guns.

Fortunately for the owner, they actually caught the guy who did it.

But if they had been reported stolen in the first place, perhaps more (or maybe not) could have been done.

Negligence, one of the things Jim Wright argues against. In this case, wilful negligence.

210
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:45:04pm

re: #199 Anymouse

What part of “shall not be infringed” don’t you understand!!!uno!11eleventy!1one!

What about “well regulated?”

That refers to keeping your weapons in working order!!111!!1uno!!one!!!111!

i know i’m repeating myself so i’ll stop. i’m not always fun at parties. ;-)

while i think “well regulated” is the correct interpretation, i think it’s too late / lost. so i say give ‘em the rest. then there’s no more argument for them to use.

the only thing left is if guns dont kill people, then someone is always responsible. the last legal owner. swift and severe punishment for that person

211
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:46:08pm

re: #207 jaunte

[Embedded content]

All American males concerned about terrorism, also concerned that Clay Aiken is politicizing these killings in the wrong way.

“This was an act of Islamic terrorism! We need to address it and the people on the other side of the aisle who won’t call it terrorism!”

“This was also an attack on the gay community! We need to address how they’re treated in this country!”

“HEY! NO POLITICIZING THIS TRAGEDY!!!”

212
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:48:39pm

re: #208 Targetpractice

I rather like the Israeli method: One gun per license. Separate licenses for handguns and long arms, with an individual only allowed to have one of each. And the gun is registered to the license, so you can’t just say “Well, I have a license for a handgun and this is a handgun, so it’s legal.”

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

213
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:49:17pm

sigh….

214
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:49:23pm

re: #41 Anymouse

So if a person is deemed mentally unfit to own a gun by a physician or a psychiatrist, would you force them to report (in violation of privacy rights and HIPPA) to said list?

In the State of Illinois, if you are admitted inpatient to a mental health institution, you are prohibited form purchasing/owning a firearm for five years-it’s reported to the state by the hospital.

215
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:49:41pm

Tim Teeman:
Omar Mateen Committed LGBT Mass Murder. We Must Confront That.
The media and politicians are in retreat from calling Omar Mateen’s Pulse nightclub massacre an act of anti-LGBT hate. Especially in Pride month, this erasure must not happen.

……………
On television this morning, there has been no-one calling Mateen’s massacre out as a dreadful act of violence against LGBT people. It may be an “act of terror” as we keep hearing—and Mateen radicalized by ISIS, leading to his call to 911, stating his allegiance to ISIS as he carried out his attack.

But who was targeted exactly—and why? Why the resistance to saying it? If it was an act of terror, it was also a hate crime.

216
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:49:48pm
217
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:49:52pm

re: #210 dangerman

i know i’m repeating myself so i’ll stop. i’m not always fun at parties. ;-)

while i think “well regulated” is the correct interpretation, i think it’s too late / lost. so i say give ‘em the rest. then there’s no more argument for them to use.

the only thing left is if guns dont kill people, then someone is always responsible. the last legal owner. swift and severe punishment for that person

Yup, I agree wholeheartedly. Hence titles for guns. You sell one to someone else, even if you can’t do a background check for whatever reason, you have proof you are no longer the legal owner.

I think we are coming to agreement from different directions.

218
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:50:13pm
219
Jenner7  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:50:38pm
220
Kragar  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:51:27pm

re: #210 dangerman

Well regulated meant making sure citizens were using the same weapons so they could all use the same repair parts and ammunition when they were called up for their Federal Militia duties.

221
dangerman  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:51:48pm

re: #209 Anymouse

Nope. Can’t be traced. Can only be traced to the first buyer. Can disappear immediately and go through twenty hands legally before it ends up with a criminal.

Yup. Title. Automatically require transfer just as a house or car. If stolen, that would require a gun owner to report it stolen.

When I lived in Oklahoma, there was a case in my town of a person whose fingerprints were on the gun of a killer. The police questioned him, and then he said his guns were stolen, but he thought the government had no right to know if he owned guns.

Fortunately for the murderer, they actually caught the guy who did it.

But if they had been reported stolen in the first place, perhaps more (or maybe not) could have been done.

Negligence, one of the things Jim Wright argues against. In this case, wilful negligence.

in my world, that first buyer is responsible. it’s each person’s obligation to protect himself if he thinks he has to. that includes keeping documentiation on how he got rid of it - if he thinks he’ll need it later.

of course if he thinks other facts and circumstances in the future will bail him out, that’s a risk he can take.

titles imply registries and i think that wont fly.
private bills of sale, notaries, and the like i think have a chance

mind you, i think these are all details once responsbility is agreed upon.

bbl

222
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:52:29pm

re: #214 Eric The Fruit Bat

In the State of Illinois, if you are admitted inpatient to a mental health institution, you are prohibited form purchasing/owning a firearm for five years-it’s reported to the state by the hospital.

So the solution is never see a psychiatrist. Not enough stigma already on the mentally ill, who are the overwhelming majority of victims of gun crime, not criminals.

If I wanted to purchase a gun, and also wanted to see a mental health professional, well, what do I do?

Let’s see: DC v Heller. The state would need to bring a court case against me to take my weapons (hence so many cases of domestic violence where gun owners get to keep their guns).

Or, I can just skip the psychiatrist and buy the gun from my neighbour.

223
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:53:29pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

You want to be a gun collector, great. Take them to the local gun shop, have them deactivated, then put them up on the wall. Boom, you’re a collector.

224
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:53:39pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

Take a fucking break. Today isn’t the day. You still don’t even own a gun, correct? This is all fetish for you.

Signed, someone with an actual gun collection.

225
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:53:58pm
226
Not a Sparkly Vampire  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:54:37pm

More blood for the blood god.

227
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:55:07pm
228
makeitstop  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:55:13pm

re: #149 Backwoods_Sleuth

It appears he likes cars, can’t hold a job, and thinks Hillary is the same as Hitler….

facebook.com

The disturbing thing about his FB page is that it so closely resembles a lot of people’s FB pages that I know.

229
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:55:18pm

It didn’t make national news…it barely made local news…but last weekend the bodies of a murder-suicide were discovered in my county.
The wife was an attorney for an advocacy agency.
Everyone who knew the couple is shocked.
“They were so happy, loving, etc.”

but let’s not talk about guns…

230
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:55:55pm

re: #220 Kragar

Well regulated meant making sure citizens were using the same weapons so they could all use the same repair parts and ammunition when they were called up for their Federal Militia duties.

Same ammo, mostly. Many muskets and most rifles in those days were hand-built by local smiths and true interchangeable parts were over a decade away when the 2nd Amendment was adopted.

231
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:56:11pm

re: #221 dangerman

titles imply registries and i think that wont fly.
private bills of sale, notaries, and the like i think have a chance

mind you, i think these are all details once responsbility is agreed upon.

bbl

I am not a libertarian so I know that won’t work. (Libertarianism is a religion, I do not believe religions.) And the NRA would oppose record keeping by individuals as an infringement on the II Amendment. (Moreover, notaries are sworn government officials, and you need an ID to prove who you are to a notary befoe you sign a document.)

Economy of scale: Titles are much cheaper to administer and can be universally regulated across a state rather than “well, damn, I know I had a bill of sale somewhere scribbled on the back of an envelope… . let me call my bank and see if I can get the guy’s cancelled cheque… .”

232
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:56:30pm

Is anyone else afraid that this asshole has successfully drove a wedge between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America?

233
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:56:35pm

re: #228 makeitstop

The disturbing thing about his FB page is that it so closely resembles a lot of people’s FB pages that I know.

yep.

234
lawhawk  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:57:07pm

re: #229 Backwoods_Sleuth

Background noise of the regular drumbeat of death.

235
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:57:16pm

re: #224 goddamnedfrank

Take a fucking break. Today isn’t the day. You still don’t even own a gun, correct? This is all fetish for you.

Signed, someone with an actual gun collection.

You’re damn right today is the day, and every day a criminal murders with a gun or a person commits suicide with one, or a toddler shoots a sibling with one is the day.

Every day is the day, until the NRA finally bends to sense.

And I do own a gun.

236
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:57:26pm

re: #221 dangerman

in my world, that first buyer is responsible. it’s each person’s obligation to protect himself if he thinks he has to. that includes keeping documentiation on how he got rid of it - if he thinks he’ll need it later.

That’s great except your world isn’t the current established law. Right now the private party transfer loophole active in most states enables firearms trafficking. That loophole is vociferously defended by the NRA and Republican lawmakers.

237
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:58:39pm

re: #235 Anymouse

You’re damn right today is the day, and every day a criminal murders with a gun or a person commits suicide with one, or a toddler shoots a sibling with one is the day.

Every day is the day, until the NRA finally bends to sense.

And I do own a gun.

Did you even read the comment by DF that frank was responding to?

238
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:58:42pm

re: #236 goddamnedfrank

Yup. Unfortunately, money trumps sense.

239
ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:59:29pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

Forget it EPR, its Texas. If Gov. Abbott ran up a rainbow flag all he’d get was abuse. Putting up a Florida flag keeps his fellow Texans from making asses of themselves.

You know if you placate and ignore behavior it only continues and often gets worse.

240
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 3:59:54pm
241
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:00:34pm

re: #237 Backwoods_Sleuth

Did you even read the comment by DF that frank was responding to?

Yes I did. Today is not the day is always the argument of the NRA, regardless of the issue with a gun.

I could even see myself take the position of unregulated gun ownership if someone could advance better arguments than “shall not be infringed” or “today is not the day.”

242
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:00:47pm

Can anyone respond with some witty tweets to this self-described gay Republican here?

243
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:00:48pm

re: #222 Anymouse

So the solution is never see a psychiatrist. Not enough stigma already on the mentally ill, who are the overwhelming majority of victims of gun crime, not criminals.

If I wanted to purchase a gun, and also wanted to see a mental health professional, well, what do I do?

Seeing a psychiatrist in Illinois in an outpatient setting isn’t quite the same as being admitted to a mental health facility-which is what I was referring to explicitly as a triggering event. Due to the limited number of beds available, admissions are reserved for people who are really in a bad way.

244
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:01:36pm

re: #241 Anymouse

Yes I did. Today is not the day is always the argument of the NRA, regardless of the issue with a gun.

I could even see myself take the position of unregulated gun ownership if someone could advance better arguments than “shall not be infringed” or “today is not the day.”

OK, so gun collectors are totally off limits for any discussion about regulation.

Got it.

245
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:02:15pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

Same ammo, mostly. Many muskets and most rifles in those days were hand-built by local smiths and true interchangeable parts were over a decade away when the 2nd Amendment was adopted.

The snaphance, matchlock and wheellock mechanisms were outlawed on some jurisdictions after the flintlock came into widespread acceptance. 2nd Amendment was at least in part designed to facilitate standardization of arms for reliability and acceptable use within a militia setting.

246
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:04:15pm

re: #243 Eric The Fruit Bat

Seeing a psychiatrist in Illinois in an outpatient setting isn’t quite the same as being admitted to a mental health facility-which is what I was referring to explicitly as a triggering event. Due to the limited number of beds available, admissions are reserved for people who are really in a bad way.

But a psychiatrist can have you committed against your will in Illinois (and just about everywhere).

re: #242 electrotek

Can anyone respond with some witty tweets to this self-described gay Republican here?

I don’t have a Tweet, but this is from his own page. Ask him how many Muslims have shot up or blown up abortion clinics.

247
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:04:17pm

re: #244 Backwoods_Sleuth

OK, so gun collectors are totally off limits for any discussion about regulation.

Got it.

That’s not what he said or what I said.

248
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:06:31pm

re: #246 Anymouse

249
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:06:35pm

re: #242 electrotek

Can anyone respond with some witty tweets to this self-described gay Republican here?

[Embedded content]

The people who’ve spent years of their lives unable to live openly for fear that a Christian-dominated culture would ostracize them, attempt to “cure” them, and treat them as a second-class citizen by denying them basic rights (marriage, business patronage, a job) now want you to believe that the biggest danger in your life is Islamic terrorism.

250
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:07:39pm
251
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:08:09pm

re: #242 electrotek

Why bother? Gay Republicans are crazier than shithouse rats, by definition.

If one must respond, support by US evangelicals for the ‘Kill the Gays’ bill in Uganda is on-point.

Anti-gay bigots can have any religious preference, including ‘none’.

252
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:08:25pm

So, who is it we’re supposed to #PrayforOrlando to? The Christian God we’re regularly informed thinks homosexuality is a mortal sin, whose followers quote scripture that says homosexuals should be stoned, and a belief in is regularly stated as a reason for people to ostracize homosexuals?

253
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:08:29pm

re: #250 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Because he was Muslim and not white.

254
Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:08:46pm

Several people have been wrong on the Internet today.

255
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:09:24pm

re: #232 electrotek

Is anyone else afraid that this asshole has successfully drove a wedge between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America?

Speaking as a gay person, no. No individual nut job gets to define the relation between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America.

256
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:10:13pm
257
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:10:25pm
258
TedStriker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:10:48pm

re: #234 lawhawk

Background noise of the regular drumbeat of death.

Just more grist for the mill of death that is the High Holy Right to Be Armed with Almost Any Firearm You Want.

259
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:11:33pm

One thing I really wish was that a law could be enacted that had an 4/5ths supermajority requirement for any changes made within say, a 10 year timeframe. I think gun-owners would be more willing to discuss things like background checks if they had a way to ensure that whatever compromise they agreed to wouldn’t be ignored if some high profile killing occurred.

Likewise, I think gun control people might accept that if they knew that said same bill would settle the question of, say, open carry with city and town limits, in the negative for the same period.

I’d like a grand compromise, but I think it would need something to keep either side from moving the goalposts after it passed and there is no such mechanism.

260
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:11:48pm

The wingnuts wanted so badly to talk about the pride parade as more terrorism…until they found out that the guy was a white boy from Indiana. Then they suddenly lost all interest in it…

261
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:12:23pm
262
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:12:41pm

Anti glbt violence in the Islam is horrible but so is antI glbt violence in the name of Christianty and the latter happens far more often in this country without a word of condemnation from the conservative Republicans acting horrified by this tragedy.

263
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:12:52pm

re: #232 electrotek

Is anyone else afraid that this asshole has successfully drove a wedge between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America?

From what I’m seeing online today, no.

264
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:13:29pm
265
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:13:32pm

re: #261 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Republicans sure love to show they like to compensate.

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electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:13:58pm

re: #263 stpaulbear

From what I’m seeing online today, no.

See the article I linked about a woman in “PRIDE” clothing threatening a mosque in Fort Worth.

267
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:14:03pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

O_O

I’m a gun owner. Your suggestion is just…wow…

268
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:15:43pm

Interesting little factoid from Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org

At present, out of the world’s nearly 200 constitutions, three still include a right to bear arms: Guatemala, Mexico, and the United States; of these three, only the last does not include explicit restrictive conditions.

269
Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:15:44pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

One thing I really wish was that a law could be enacted that had an 4/5ths supermajority requirement for any changes made within say, a 10 year timeframe. I think gun-owners would be more willing to discuss things like background checks if they had a way to ensure that whatever compromise they agreed to wouldn’t be ignored if some high profile killing occurred.

Likewise, I think gun control people might accept that if they knew that said same bill would settle the question of, say, open carry with city and town limits, in the negative for the same period.

I’d like a grand compromise, but I think it would need something to keep either side from moving the goalposts after it passed and there is no such mechanism.

Yeah, no Dark, I don’t believe that for a moment. Even with such a requirement, the ammosexuals would scream bloody murder. Why? Because any laws that would address major issues in the law would mean making it harder to purchase a firearms, which would would hurt gun sales and thus lead the NRA to scream that gun rights are being “infringed.” And they would quickly rail against such a requirement preventing them from overturning the new laws and stand against any new ones unless a new requirement that was more amenable to them was passed.

270
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:15:53pm

re: #263 stpaulbear

From what I’m seeing online today, no.

271
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:16:10pm

re: #232 electrotek

Is anyone else afraid that this asshole has successfully drove a wedge between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America?

There are people who since last summer have vowed to drive wedges between various groups of liberals and you can be sure this plays right into their hands.

See the 2nd image, 1st paragraph. Note that it’s from The Daily Stormer:

272
Dark_Falcon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:17:29pm

BBL

273
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:18:13pm

re: #266 electrotek

See the article I linked about a woman in “PRIDE” clothing threatening a mosque in Fort Worth.

Individual nut jobs don’t get to poison the well between communities. There will be trouble between GLBT and Muslim people in the US only if a sizable fraction of one or both communities decides to go this stupid way.

274
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:18:51pm

re: #273 EPR-radar

Individual nut jobs don’t get to poison the well between communities. There will be trouble between GLBT and Muslim people in the US only if a sizable fraction of one or both communities decides to go this stupid way.

And just because somebody is wearing a PRIDE shirt doesn’t mean jackcrap.

275
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:19:39pm
276
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:20:50pm

re: #250 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Just curious: Has anyone mentioned the religion of the white guy that was headed for LA and speculated about what might have motivated him, or are (the collective) we just assuming he has mental health issues?

277
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:21:15pm

re: #232 electrotek

Is anyone else afraid that this asshole has successfully drove a wedge between Muslims and the LGBT community here in America?

Seriously fucking doubt it. Gay people in this country know exactly that the those who have been standing in the way of their legal rights and equality are the same people who made it easy for this asshole on the terrorist watchlist to buy guns, Republicans.

278
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:21:32pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Just curious: Has anyone mentioned the religion of the white guy that was headed for LA and speculated about what might have motivated him, or are (the collective) we just assuming he has mental health issues?

Nope.
I wanna know who radicalized THAT guy…

279
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:21:40pm

Shooting in a church: Christians are under attack! We must do everything we can to protect Christians!

Shooting at a gay bar: Radical Islamic Terrorism! Americans were killed by MOOOZLIMZ!!! Don’t use this act of Radical Islamic Terror to push your gay agenda!

Heavily armed white guy stopped before attacking LA Pride festivities: Hey, did you hear what happened in Florida?

280
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:21:49pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

White guy from Indiana; religion never a factor.

281
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:22:40pm

re: #240 electrotek

“see, gays, muslims hate you!” is such a predictable white liberal response.

WTF? Liberal?

282
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:22:56pm

re: #280 jaunte

White guy from Indiana; religion never a factor.

Which is textbook white privilege.

283
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:23:20pm

re: #266 electrotek

See the article I linked about a woman in “PRIDE” clothing threatening a mosque in Fort Worth.

That’s one article. Has it been substantiated?

Most of the stuff I’ve seen today trying to divide the two sides is posted by haters who want both sides to suffer and lose.

284
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:23:38pm

re: #277 goddamnedfrank

Seriously fucking doubt it. Gay people in this country know exactly that the those who have been standing in the way of their legal rights and equality are the same people who made it easy for this asshole on the terrorist watchlist to buy guns, Republicans.

Fair enough.

How about with LGBT communities in Europe? We all know Islamophobia is unfortunately commonplace among LGBT communities in France, Holland, and Germany, to name a few. The late Pim Fortuyn comes to mind.

285
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:23:52pm

re: #270 electrotek

[Embedded content]

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jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:23:55pm

This is a country where a Christian presidential candidate cooked bacon with a gun, and his constituents didn’t think it was disqualifyingly bizarre behavior.

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CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:24:24pm

re: #266 electrotek

See the article I linked about a woman in “PRIDE” clothing threatening a mosque in Fort Worth.

That’s one person. Don’t extrapolate about the entire American LGBT community based on that—to do so would be just as bad as assuming all Muslims are like the shooter.

288
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:24:53pm

If he were Christiwn, he’d just be brushed off as a crazy with a gun.

289
TedStriker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:25:18pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Just curious: Has anyone mentioned the religion of the white guy that was headed for LA and speculated about what might have motivated him, or are (the collective) we just assuming he has mental health issues?

I think that you know the answer to that question, as do we all here.

290
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:26:23pm

re: #287 CuriousLurker

That’s one person. Don’t extrapolate about the entire American LGBT community based on that—to do so would be just as bad as assuming all Muslims are like the shooter.

You’re right. I’m just really concerned because throughout this entire time it was the LGBT community here that stood side by side with Muslims, and now thanks to scumbag Omar I’m just fearing that a wedge has been made.

291
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:26:39pm

re: #266 electrotek

See the article I linked about a woman in “PRIDE” clothing threatening a mosque in Fort Worth.

It would be fairly easy to buy a PRIDE t-shirt in the DFW area.

292
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:27:11pm

re: #270 electrotek

[Embedded content]

I wonder if she realized that women who don’t subjugate are thrown off buildings by ISIS.

293
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:28:19pm

re: #284 electrotek

Why is determining who hates who such an important issue for you?

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gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:28:34pm
295
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:28:45pm

re: #291 jaunte

It would be fairly easy to buy a PRIDE t-shirt in the DFW area.

Well, yeah. But it’s not like being gay automatically makes you tolerant of Islam.

296
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:29:16pm

re: #288 HappyWarrior

If he were Christiwn, he’d just be brushed off as a crazy with a gun.

No True Christian, but 1 billion Muslims have to simultaneously condemn every action of a Fundamentalist.

We are back on the previous thread.

If every Muslim is responsible for a terror action caused by a Muslim, then every Christian is too, or that Christian is a hypocrite.

Religion poisons everything. - Christopher Hitchens.

297
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:30:01pm

re: #290 electrotek

You’re right. I’m just really concerned because throughout this entire time it was the LGBT community here that stood side by side with Muslims, and now thanks to scumbag Omar I’m just fearing that a wedge has been made.

I understand, but we have to be thoughtful about what our words imply. Yes, many in both the LGBT and atheist communities have stood up for Muslims.

298
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:30:31pm

re: #293 stpaulbear

Why is determining who hates who such an important issue for you?

I suppose it may be because when it comes to two groups that have been disenfranchised and historically discriminated against, the last thing I want is further division.

299
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:30:35pm

re: #296 Anymouse

No True Christian, but 1 billion Muslims have to simultaneously condemn every action of a Fundamentalist.

We are back on the previous thread.

If every Muslim is responsible for a terror action caused by a Muslim, then every Christian is too, or that Christian is a hypocrite.

Religion poisons everything. - Christopher Hitchens.

300
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:31:24pm

Advocating for the abolition of Christianity I see. /s

301
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:31:49pm

re: #299 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

BTW: That tweet I posted is an example of broad brushing and not helpful at all. (wasn’t a knock on you A.)

302
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:32:15pm
303
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:32:33pm

re: #295 Blind Frog Belly White

Well, yeah. But it’s not like being gay automatically makes you tolerant of Islam.

For my part, I see no reason to be tolerant of the kind of Islamist zealotry that rules in some parts of the world.

However, that nonsense doesn’t represent all of Islam.

304
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:32:39pm

re: #297 CuriousLurker

I understand, but we have to be thoughtful about what our words imply. Yes, many in both the LGBT and atheist communities have stood up for Muslims.

For sure.

I just despise attitudes like this which are commonplace with our communities. From this Buzzfeed article about Muslims in TN:

his mobilization was organized, in large part, by TIRRC and other civil- and immigrant-rights groups. While Abudiab and Mohyuddin welcomed the alliances, many other Muslims felt forced into them by circumstance. Ossama Bahloul, the imam of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, recalls feeling deeply uneasy when LGBT groups expressed their support during the campaign to stop the building of his mosque; recently, he declined to support one of these groups in return.

“You might find it very confusing,” Bahloul says. “Politically, how am I going to support someone who is against my personal values? Because he supports my existence? And the very conservative person shares with me the same values — but he is against my existence.”

Why do some conservative Muslims insist on fostering close ties with conservative Christians that hate us, I will never understand.

305
De Kolta Chair  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:32:55pm
306
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:33:49pm

re: #296 Anymouse

No True Christian, but 1 billion Muslims have to simultaneously condemn every action of a Fundamentalist.

We are back on the previous thread.

If every Muslim is responsible for a terror action caused by a Muslim, then every Christian is too, or that Christian is a hypocrite.

Religion poisons everything. - Christopher Hitchens.

And then nobody even hears them when they do. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard that Muslims never condemn terrorism. So you provide a link to a compilation of Muslim denunciations of terrorism, and you know what you hear back? Either crickets, or “Yeah, they would say that!”

307
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:33:57pm
308
darthstar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:33:58pm

From this morning’s walk…it was a nice morning.

Staying out of the Orlando thing for a bit…too angry about it to deal with bullshit.

309
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:34:11pm

re: #296 Anymouse

No True Christian, but 1 billion Muslims have to simultaneously condemn every action of a Fundamentalist.

We are back on the previous thread.

If every Muslim is responsible for a terror action caused by a Muslim, then every Christian is too, or that Christian is a hypocrite.

Religion poisons everything. - Christopher Hitchens.

That’s actually my point. If he were Christian, he’d just be shrugged off as a lone nut but because he’s Muslim, the entire Muslim community gets held responsible.

310
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:34:33pm

re: #301 Backwoods_Sleuth

BTW: That tweet I posted is an example of broad brushing and not helpful at all. (wasn’t a knock on you A.)

Agreed. #NotAllChristians #NotAllMuslims

But every atheist is godless and will burn in hell according to both religions.

I don’t think Buddhism has anything against gays, so if that is true there is one religion not opposed to gays.

311
BeachDem  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:34:43pm

re: #180 Anymouse

And never, ever let the NRA, Republicans, or conservatives say “now is not the time to talk about it.” Every day is the time to talk about it, every murder, every suicide, every negligent handling of a gun, until the public moves against the NRA and they change their position.

That would take a liberal press.

312
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:35:46pm

It’s kind of the same thing that the Pink Swastika assholes do with the handful of gay Nazis that existed. They focus on them and ignore that the vast majority of NSADP memebrs were heterosexual Christian males.

313
Teukka  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:36:04pm

re: #307 Tigger2

[Embedded content]

314
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:36:31pm

re: #302 goddamnedfrank

People like me are being used as political talking points by Republicans who ordinarily prefer to scapegoat us. Isn’t that just ducky.

Have I mentioned recently how much I despise the Republican party, all its works, and all of its elected officials?

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HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:36:40pm

re: #313 Teukka

[Embedded content]

He really likes Wayne LaPierre’s backside.

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Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:37:02pm

re: #313 Teukka

[Embedded content]

Gohmert’s not very bright.

317
Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:37:09pm

re: #280 jaunte

White guy from Indiana; religion never a factor.

White mass murderer; religion never a factor.

318
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:37:40pm

re: #314 EPR-radar

People like me are being used as political talking points by Republicans who ordinarily prefer to scapegoat us. Isn’t that just ducky.

Have I mentioned recently how much I despise the Republican party, all its works, and all of its elected officials?

As you should, I think think a large part of Bush’s legacy that needs to be discussed is how the RNC led by a closeted gay man no less used fear of same sex marriage to get out the vote to ensure Bush’s re-election in 2004.

319
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:37:59pm

Hmmm. Looks like I went over 10,000 karma some time this weekend. Not a huge deal, but anyway…

320
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:38:27pm

re: #319 stpaulbear

Hmmm. Looks like I went over 10,000 karma some time this weekend. Not a huge deal, but anyway…

Congrats.

321
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:39:22pm
322
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:40:04pm

re: #321 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Because Paul Ryan, the Ayn Rand fanboy would rather offer hollow prayers than dare to go against the NRA’s desires on guns.

323
EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:40:11pm

re: #304 electrotek


Why do some conservative Muslims insist on fostering close ties with conservative Christians that hate us, I will never understand.

From my point of view, the answer to this question is very simple. Alliances between conservative Muslims and conservative Christians to foster an anti-gay agenda are alliances between people whose shared hate is more important than their supposed religious beliefs.

324
Aunty Entity Dragon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:40:19pm

re: #36 KGxvi

I’d add an insurance requirement. $500,000 policy for one gun, $1,000,000 policy for 2-5 guns, and $5,000,000 policy for six or more.

The insurance requirement would be unconstitutional since the SCOTUS affirmed gun ownership as a right and extended that to cover all states. It would be like requiring a poll tax to vote…which you can’t do. The other things you list would all pass muster.

325
Reality Based Steve  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:40:23pm

re: #304 electrotek

For sure.

I just despise attitudes like this which are commonplace with our communities. From this Buzzfeed article about Muslims in TN:

Why do some conservative Muslims insist on fostering close ties with conservative Christians that hate us, I will never understand.

Link bookmarked for later use.

RBS

326
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:42:53pm

re: #304 electrotek

Why do some conservative Muslims insist on fostering close ties with conservative Christians that hate us, I will never understand.

I don’t know, maybe for the same reason some conservative Jews do. Y’know subscribing to the whole “enemy of my enemy is my friend” while pointedly ignoring the underlying antisemitism and Armageddon fantasies of the Christian/far-right. *shrugs*

327
Tigger2  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:43:35pm

re: #321 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

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HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:43:51pm

re: #304 electrotek

For sure.

I just despise attitudes like this which are commonplace with our communities. From this Buzzfeed article about Muslims in TN:

Why do some conservative Muslims insist on fostering close ties with conservative Christians that hate us, I will never understand.

Well Muslims obviously aren’t immune to bigotry. I tell you one of the most sad things during the so called Ground Zero Mosque debate was when a bunch of Coptic Christians who were wrongly thought to be Muslims by the bigoted assholes joined forces with the Anti-Muslim bigots. It’s kind of how I feel as a descendant of Catholic immigrants seeing the RCC hierachy go buddy buddy with Evangelical Protestants who thought Catholics were just a bunch of Papists before they discovered they could use abortion as a political issue.

329
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:44:13pm

re: #326 CuriousLurker

I don’t know, maybe for the same reason some conservative Jews do. Y’know subscribing to the whole “enemy of my enemy is my friend” while pointedly ignoring the underlying antisemitism and Armageddon fantasies of the Christian/far-right. *shrugs*

It’s just ironic. These same people accuse liberal Muslims of kissing up to the West yet what are they exactly doing? And how is it any different?

The hypocrisy stings me.

330
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:44:29pm

re: #306 Blind Frog Belly White

TAQIYYAAAAAAAA!!11!

331
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:45:01pm

Shooter originally from New York State, moved to home in Port St. Lucie.

Donald Trump is from New York, built Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, right next door.

Coincidence? - Wife asking for friends here.

332
stpaulbear  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:45:02pm

re: #321 Backwoods_Sleuth

Thoughts and Prayers is LITERALLY the least you can do for anybody who needs help.

333
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:46:15pm

re: #332 stpaulbear

It never seems to work for the church building fund.

334
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:46:44pm

re: #324 Aunty Entity Dragon

The insurance requirement would be unconstitutional since the SCOTUS affirmed gun ownership as a right as extended that to cover all states. It would be like requiring a poll tax to vote…which you can’t do. The other things you list would all pass muster.

DC v Heller can be overturned.

Nine unelected judges legislating from the bench!!!uno!!!oneE1111¬¬!!

That is the only thing that prevents it.

335
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:47:45pm

re: #333 jaunte

It never seems to work for the church building fund.

And the pastor’s wallet. I am not a religious person at all but it really disgusts me how some of these pastors live. Silly me for thinking there was a vow of poverty, the irony is Fundamentalist Churches were founded in the first place by people who thought their clergy were getting way out of touch with their parishioners. Wonder what these people would think of the Osteens, Robertsons, Falwells, etc of the world.

336
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:48:35pm

kitteh agility course:

337
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:49:46pm

re: #335 HappyWarrior

And the pastor’s wallet. I am not a religious person at all but it really disgusts me how some of these pastors live. Silly me for thinking there was a vow of poverty, the irony is Fundamentalist Churches were founded in the first place by people who thought their clergy were getting way out of touch with their parishioners. Wonder what these people would think of the Osteens, Robertsons, Falwells, etc of the world.

vow of poverty isn’t usually a requirement.

That vow of chastity, however, seems to get quite the pretzel bending.

338
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:50:00pm

re: #335 HappyWarrior

He must know Dan Patrick.

339
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:50:18pm

Honestly someone needs to stand up to the gun lobby. Someone needs to tell Wayne LaPierre and the others in the gun lobby that he is a bullying asshole whose bullying tactics have made reducing gun violence and tragedies an impossibility. To reinternate what I said earlier about President Obama citing how we responded to high rates of car accidents with safety measures, we can and should be able to do the same to guns but we’re unable to do that because one side refuses to budge and frankly we see that sometimes here even.

340
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:50:48pm

re: #338 jaunte

[Embedded content]

He must know Dan Patrick.

He’s such an asshole.

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electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:50:55pm
342
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:51:24pm

$804,000 raised on GoFundMe for the Orlando GLBT organisation according to Channel 9 in Orlando.

343
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:51:35pm

re: #337 Backwoods_Sleuth

vow of poverty isn’t usually a requirement.

That vow of chastity, however, seems to get quite the pretzel bending.

Not even a vow of poverty, I don’t expect every cleric to live in a poor part of Louisiana like my gerat uncle did but these clerics who live like kings really disgust me.

344
Aunty Entity Dragon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:51:52pm

re: #334 Anymouse

DC v Heller can be overturned.

Nine unelected judges legislating from the bench!!!uno!!!oneE1111¬¬!!

That is the only thing that prevents it.

Really, really unlikely in our lifetimes…and any serious attempt would likely set off some sort of armed insurrection.

Guns are not going away in this country. They are inextricably lined to our national founding mythos and our tradition of individualism makes it impossible to get any sort of cooperation from people if they disagree with a law. They simply ignore it, or worse…fight it with physical force.

345
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:52:16pm

re: #342 Anymouse

$804,000 raised on GoFundMe for the Orlando GLBT organisation according to Channel 9 in Orlando.

I am glad to see GoFundMe having some use other than grifting for some bigoted businessman or woman who didn’t like being called out on their bigotry.

346
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:52:18pm
347
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:52:51pm
348
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:53:19pm
349
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:53:26pm

re: #346 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

I don’t think Bryan has ever apologized about getting anything wrong ever including calling that CMOH honor “feminized.” Self-reflection isn’t one of his strong suits.

350
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:53:41pm

re: #344 Aunty Entity Dragon

Really, really unlikely in our lifetimes…and any serious attempt would likely set off some sort of armed insurrection.

Guns are not going away in this country. They are inextricably lined to our national founding mythos and our tradition of individualism makes it impossible to get any sort of cooperation from people if they disagree with a law. They simply ignore it, or worse…fight it with physical force.

Yup, and that is why we will have a Vietnam War Memorial number of killings and suicides and negligent homicides every year. Mythos is more important than reality.

They write those people off as unimportant, as long as the mythos is secure. See also: Rebel Traitor Flag=Heritage.

351
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:54:11pm
352
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:54:12pm

re: #348 electrotek

[Embedded content]

Eric Rudolph
Paul Hill
James Kopp
The Ku Klux Klan

353
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:54:23pm

re: #343 HappyWarrior

Not even a vow of poverty, I don’t expect every cleric to live in a poor part of Louisiana like my gerat uncle did but these clerics who live like kings really disgust me.

What’s disgusting is the prosperity bible idea that if you’re wealthy it’s because God is looking favorably on you. That’s no different than the Indian caste system.

354
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:55:13pm

re: #353 Belafon

What’s disgusting is the prosperity bible idea that if you’re wealthy it’s because God is looking favorably on you. That’s no different than the Indian caste system.

Yeah it’s disgusting.

355
electrotek  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:55:52pm

Someone cites Breivik to him and his response is so laughably dumb:

356
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:55:56pm

re: #352 HappyWarrior

Eric Rudolph
Paul Hill
James Kopp
The Ku Klux Klan

They’re not true Christians!

See also: Oklahoma City bombing, Mahleur Wildlife Refuge, Talibango Rebellion in Nevada, &c.

357
BeachDem  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:57:17pm

re: #317 Skip Intro

White mass murderer; religion never a factor.

Just got back from a weekend conference in Charleston. Nearly every speaker referenced the Mother Emanuel shootings last year. We heard from legislators, people from the Brady Campaign, the current pastor at Mother Emanuel (this was a Dem conference.) Many powerful words, many strong suggestions about things that COULD be done about gun violence.

And one little factoid crept through. AFTER the Charleston massacre, my idiot rep (of course) proposed legislation to protect guns from being included in bankruptcies. Yep—it’s ok to lose your house and car, but dog forbid your guns and ammo might have to be forfeited.

postandcourier.com

358
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:57:41pm
359
goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2016 • 4:59:03pm
360
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:00:10pm
361
Frankie Five Angels  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:01:20pm

No more thoughts and prayers.

362
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:01:39pm

re: #357 BeachDem

Just got back from a weekend conference in Charleston. Nearly every speaker referenced the Mother Emanuel shootings last year. We heard from legislators, people from the Brady Campaign, the current pastor at Mother Emanuel (this was a Dem conference.) Many powerful words, many strong suggestions about things that COULD be done about gun violence.

And one little factoid crept through. AFTER the Charleston massacre, my idiot rep (of course) proposed legislation to protect guns from being included in bankruptcies. Yep—it’s ok to lose your house and car, but dog forbid your guns and ammo might have to be forfeited.

postandcourier.com

They care more about guns than people.

363
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:02:04pm

re: #359 goddamnedfrank

[Embedded content]

Yep.

364
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:02:53pm

would have been bigger headlines in LA.
Plus, he could have hit the beaches first…

365
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:04:29pm

re: #356 Anymouse

They’re not true Christians!

See also: Oklahoma City bombing, Mahleur Wildlife Refuge, Talibango Rebellion in Nevada, &c.

So many examples.

366
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:05:22pm

re: #365 HappyWarrior

So many examples.

Robert Dear.

367
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:05:31pm

re: #341 electrotek

[Embedded content]

So an anti-Muslim bigot who also appears to be an atheist retweets people like Nero is spouting BS—imagine my surprise. // He clearly dislikes religion-based anti-atheist bigotry, but totally fails to see the irony in his behavior. I wonder if he realizes that atheists are only one point above Muslims on Pew’s 2014 “feeling thermometer.”

Jews, Catholics and evangelical Christians are viewed warmly by the American public. When asked to rate each group on a “feeling thermometer” ranging from 0 to 100 - where 0 reflects the coldest, most negative possible rating and 100 the warmest, most positive rating - all three groups receive an average rating of 60 or higher (63 for Jews, 62 for Catholics and 61 for evangelical Christians). And 44% of the public rates all three groups in the warmest part of the scale (67 or higher).

Buddhists, Hindus and Mormons receive neutral ratings on average, ranging from 48 for Mormons to 53 for Buddhists. The public views atheists and Muslims more coldly; atheists receive an average rating of 41, and Muslims an average rating of 40. Fully 41% of the public rates Muslims in the coldest part of the thermometer (33 or below), and 40% rate atheists in the coldest part. […]

pewforum.org

368
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:06:43pm

re: #366 Backwoods_Sleuth

Robert Dear.

Scott Roeder

369
Thanos  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:07:26pm

They say history never repeats, but don’t tell yourself that before you go to sleep.

This is the same miss step Romney made that led to the Benghazi boogaloo. Romney got too far in front of a terror event and politicized it immediately - before we even knew the body count. There was inevitable backlash from the American public, and the Benghazi Boogaloo then evolved from the GOP shamble dancing Romney out of a morass of his own creation.

370
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:07:50pm

re: #365 HappyWarrior

So many examples.

Needz moar rum.

The problem cannot be fixed. Wayne LaPierre and his group of terror enablers will never be taken apart in my lifetime.

And if 100 IQ is the average, half the American public is dumber.

I feel lonely sometimes on the other side of the bell curve.

That’s why my wife runs her Website (linked to my name here) on cynicism. She views everything as hopeless. She said over this “perhaps cockroaches will survive and create a more intelligent species.”

371
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:08:52pm

re: #367 CuriousLurker

And yet according to Pew Research, atheists are the least trusted group in America (far below Muslims, and even below rapists and paedophiles).

372
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:09:31pm
373
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:09:53pm

Fox News host Tucker Carlson suggested on Sunday that President Barack Obama shared the blame for killings at a gay nightclub in Orlando because his administration had downplayed Islamic terrorism.
crooksandliars.com

374
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:10:20pm

*spit*

375
jaunte  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:12:37pm

re: #374 Backwoods_Sleuth

“Now let me just be real clear: I’ve never advocated for violence. I don’t believe in, you know, taking the law into our own hands. I would never go in and shoot up a gay bar — so-called. I don’t believe it’s right for us to just be a vigilante… But I will say this: The Bible says that homosexuals should be put to death, in Leviticus 20:13. Obviously, it’s not right for somebody to just, you know, shoot up the place, because that’s not going through the proper channels. But these people all should have been killed, anyway, but they should have been killed through the proper channels, as in they should have been executed by a righteous government that would have tried them, convicted them, and saw them executed.”

What a relief that he wants to go through the proper channels.

376
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:12:52pm

re: #374 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

*spit*

No difference in the members of the right wing, no matter what they may profess to believe.

377
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:14:46pm
Pope Francis is shaken and saddened by the ‘homicidal folly and senseless hatred’ that has left at least 50 people dead in an attack on a nightclub in Orlando, Florida.

A statement released by the Holy See Press Office Director, Father Federico Lombardi SJ, on the Orlando massacre which has been described as the worst mass shooting in American history.

The terrible massacre that has taken place in Orlando, with its dreadfully high number of innocent victims, has caused in Pope Francis, and in all of us, the deepest feelings of horror and condemnation, of pain and turmoil before this new manifestation of homicidal folly and senseless hatred. Pope Francis joins the families of the victims and all of the injured in prayer and in compassion. Sharing in their indescribable suffering he entrusts them to the Lord so they may find comfort. We all hope that ways may be found, as soon as possible, to effectively identify and contrast the causes of such terrible and absurd violence which so deeply upsets the desire for peace of the American people and of the whole of humanity.

The attack, which took place early Sunday in a crowded nightclub, was perpetrated by a gunman wielding an assault-type rifle and a handgun.

Article continues at Radio Vaticana

en.radiovaticana.va

Pope Francis wants to take our guns! He is not a real Christian or even an American!

378
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:15:07pm

re: #374 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

*spit*

I was wondering how long it would be before one of them said something like that. It didn’t even take 24 hours. Next up: Westboro Baptist Church announces plans to demonstrate at victims’ funerals in 5… 4… 3…

379
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:17:32pm

re: #375 jaunte

What a relief that he wants to go through the proper channels.

Pastor Asshole isn’t talking about those shrimp eaters that Leviticus also gives the death sentence to. Gosh I wonder if Pastor Asshole would condemn the people in a Red Lobster the same way?

380
Lidane  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:20:10pm

I’m seriously done with the bullshit. Just fucking done.

It was easier for the gunman to arm himself than it is for gay men to donate blood for his victims. That’s insane to me. Our priorities are so fucked as a country.

381
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:20:42pm

re: #378 CuriousLurker

I was wondering how long it would be before one of them said something like that. It didn’t even take 24 hours. Next up: Westboro Baptist Church announces plans to demonstrate at victims’ funerals in 5… 4… 3…

Live your life in such a way that Westboro Baptist Church would want to picket your funeral.

That motto seems pretty good to me.

And of course to them, everyone else is not a Real Christian (tm), and to other Christians, WBC are not Real Christians (tm).

They all enable each other using the same evil holy book. This church hates gays, this church hates adultery, this church hates abortion, this church hates birth control, this church hates divorce, all of them at least disdain atheists and agnostics (but most of them just lovingly condemn us to eternal torment).

I am inexorably moving from apathetic atheism to anti-theism.

382
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:21:43pm

Instagram

#cats #cat #catsofinstagram #catstagram #notebooks #notebook #thoughtoftheday #magic #mysticism #pets #stationery #writing

Also, evil kitteh and her collar update: Third brand new collar installed 24 hours ago. She is still wearing it, despite all efforts to let me know that she is EXTREMELY displeased…

383
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:21:48pm

re: #371 Anymouse

And yet according to Pew Research, atheists are the least trusted group in America (far below Muslims, and even below rapists and paedophiles).

Of course. Non-believers are incapable of being morally upstanding Americans because ethics are born of moral principles that come (only) from religion. Obviously. //

384
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:23:20pm

re: #380 Lidane

I’m seriously done with the bullshit. Just fucking done.

It was easier for the gunman to arm himself than it is for gay men to donate blood for his victims. That’s insane to me. Our priorities are so fucked as a country.

That’s a great point.

385
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:25:34pm

re: #383 CuriousLurker

Of course. Non-believers are incapable of being morally upstanding Americans because ethics are born of moral principles that come (only) from religion. Obviously. //

Your statement led me to this: Never trust a Christian that expects to be forgiven.

I’m pretty sure Muslim could be put in there as well.

386
A Cranky One  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:25:56pm

The Orlando news has me quite upset, to the point where I engaged the troll in the previous thread, something I rarely do. I also used a few words that I seldom use in my replies.

Fortunately, my day was salvaged by a visit from a grandson (2 1/2 years old). Watching him play with the dogs and enjoying freshly grilled corn on the cob did my old soul good.

Sometimes a little love is the only antidote to all the hate out there.

387
BeachDem  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:26:37pm

Leaving to devote full attention to the Tonys. The opening already mocked Trump (to great applause) and complimented Hillary (also to great applause.) Need something cheerful, life-affirming, and celebrating diversity.

Later.

388
PhillyPretzel  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:26:57pm

re: #386 A Cranky One

True.

389
HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:27:00pm

What was Obama supposed to do? The right objects to people on watch lists being denied guns. He also was an American born citizen too.

390
Reality Based Steve  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:27:09pm

re: #383 CuriousLurker

Of course. Non-believers are incapable of being morally upstanding Americans because ethics are born of moral principles that come (only) from religion. Obviously. //

Exactly.

RBS

391
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:27:26pm

re: #381 Anymouse

One of our local guys was killed August 19, 2010, in a firefight with insurgents in Afghanistan.
Westboro showed up to do their thing. But our village is so small and in the middle of nowhere Appalachia, we were able (with the assistance of hundreds, if not thousands of out-of-town people) to block them from entering at the nearest highway. State police wouldn’t even let them park on the shoulder.

392
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:27:43pm

re: #338 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Everything in your life has been strategically orchestrated. You may not understand it, but that’s what faith is all about.

Not to go all atheist, but it’s crap like that, that drives me buggy about religion. Loved ones die of cancer. Crazy assholes kill dozens because they’re different. Wars, genocides, plagues, etc. All Part Of God’s Plan.

I suppose some believers find it comforting to think it’s all part of Somebody’s Plan, but honestly - WWII, >100 Million killed, and God says, “I meant to do that”? I find it a lot more comforting to believe nobody’s in charge than to think that’s all part of the plan.

393
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:29:05pm

re: #383 CuriousLurker

Of course. Non-believers are incapable of being morally upstanding Americans because ethics are born of moral principles that come (only) from religion. Obviously. //

When my son was a child and I lived in Virginia Beach, I was called evil in the public streets, my son could not play with other children (then there were the pickets over my private BBS on secularism).

Fortunately here, though this is a very conservative town, no one cares about my religious faith (or lack thereof).

Maybe that was because in the first few weeks I lived here, there was a break-in at the church across the street in the middle of the night. My computer faces the church. I went over with my shotgun and dog, and closed the breech when I entered the church.

Bang out the back door, leaving minor damage in the church but nothing valuable stolen. Pastor thanked me a few days later when she found out who did it (the sheriff told her after I reported the break-in).

Several people in the village government are also apathetic atheists. (All the employees, and a majority of the trustees.)

394
ipsos  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:29:08pm

re: #391 Backwoods_Sleuth

One of our local guys was killed August 19, 2010, in a firefight with insurgents in Afghanistan.
Westboro showed up to do their thing. But our village is so small and in the middle of nowhere Appalachia, we were able (with the assistance of hundreds, if not thousands of out-of-town people) to block them from entering at the nearest highway. State police wouldn’t even let them park on the shoulder.

Westboro has become so predictable at this point, one wonders if they even have any impact on anyone anymore. I expect them to show up and make asses of themselves at any event of any size, and as a result they just become white noise, at least to me.

395
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:29:12pm

re: #373 jaunte

Maybe ‘Radical Islamic Terrorism’ is like ‘Betelgeuse’. If the President says it 3 times, it goes away.

396
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:30:03pm

re: #381 Anymouse

They all enable each other using the same evil holy book.

The book is just words on paper, not some special talisman. The evil is made manifest by the reader’s interpretation of the words & the actions based upon them.

The enemy is us.

397
palomino  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:31:17pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

We get it. You’re a monomaniac in love with guns.

But could you show a little decency, and maybe give your gun fuckery fetish a break for just one damn day?

398
Joe Bacon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:31:47pm

re: #395 Blind Frog Belly White

Maybe ‘Radical Islamic Terrorism’ is like ‘Betelgeuse’. If the President says it 3 times, it goes away.

And if the President DID utter that phrase, the Republicans would tear him to pieces for saying it!

399
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:32:33pm

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

400
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:33:46pm

re: #398 Joe Bacon

And if the President DID utter that phrase, the Republicans would tear him to pieces for saying it!

The Republicans tear him to pieces for simply getting out of bed every morning.

401
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:34:59pm

re: #396 CuriousLurker

The book is just words on paper, not some special talisman. The evil is made manifest by the reader’s interpretation of the words & the actions based upon them.

The enemy is us.

The book is used to twist the minds of children who cannot tell the difference between evil words and good ones. Their parents tell them that everything in that book is the Word of God (tm). A certain number growing up believe every word is true.

The book is written agitprop or stochastic terrorism. It is the Anarchist Cookbook of faith. If the book did not exist, then the hatred of gays would mostly disappear.

Everyone is born an atheist. They are taught religion. And religion is a feature of world geography for the most part. They cannot be all right, but they can be all wrong.

402
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:35:45pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

It’s not the guy who wants _________ for collecting, it’s the guy who wants it for criminal purposes.

Howitzer
Tank
Dynamite
Rocket Launcher with rockets
C4
Atomic Bomb
Anthrax
Smallpox

The problem is, the line is a little too far out. And yes, the second amendment says you can be armed, but all of these are armaments, and yet we’ve kept those out of most people’s hands. Here in Texas, it’s illegal to be walking around with martial arts equipment. If you can ban those, you can restrict automatic weapons.

403
Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:35:57pm

re: #398 Joe Bacon

And if the President DID utter that phrase, the Republicans would tear him to pieces for saying it!

The news would be all about a stupid choice of words, that people just NEED to say to prove their bigotry.

The dead are barely remembered as it is.

404
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:36:47pm

re: #401 Anymouse

The book is used to twist the minds of children who cannot tell the difference between evil words and good ones. Their parents tell them that everything in that book is the Word of God (tm). A certain number growing up believe every word is true.

The book is written agitprop or stochastic terrorism. If the book did not exist, then the hatred of gays would mostly disappear.

Everyone is born an atheist. They are taught religion. And religion is a feature of world geography for the most part. They cannot be all right, but they can be all wrong.

I think that cart will work better behind the horse.

405
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:37:48pm

re: #401 Anymouse

Everyone is born an atheist.

I will disagree on philosophical grounds. Everyone is born with the need to understand how the world works. It’s actually pretty hard to come to terms with the idea that no one’s in charge. What most people aren’t born is being a particular religion.

406
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:39:23pm

Meanwhile in free peach land:

407
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:42:13pm

re: #402 Belafon

Here in Texas, it’s illegal to be walking around with martial arts equipment. If you can ban those, you can restrict automatic weapons.

This. A sai and a katana are arms. So are nunchucks.

But arms that for the most part only can be used to the reach of the person wielding them are illegal, and something that can fire a lethal projectile half a mile a couple times a second is not.

408
palomino  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:42:20pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

One thing I really wish was that a law could be enacted that had an 4/5ths supermajority requirement for any changes made within say, a 10 year timeframe. I think gun-owners would be more willing to discuss things like background checks if they had a way to ensure that whatever compromise they agreed to wouldn’t be ignored if some high profile killing occurred.

Likewise, I think gun control people might accept that if they knew that said same bill would settle the question of, say, open carry with city and town limits, in the negative for the same period.

I’d like a grand compromise, but I think it would need something to keep either side from moving the goalposts after it passed and there is no such mechanism.

Why the hell would we impose an unprecedented 80% supermajority requirement? Hell, it’s easier to pass a constitutional amendment or impeach a president.

At 80%, nothing would ever get done anyway. And it’s all a bullshit way of coddling insecure hysterical gun owners. Screw them, they don’t deserve 30% more “democracy” for their firearms than the rest of us (actual humans) get.

409
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:44:04pm

re: #405 Belafon

I will disagree on philosophical grounds. Everyone is born with the need to understand how the world works. It’s actually pretty hard to come to terms with the idea that no one’s in charge. What most people aren’t born is being a particular religion.

Born with the need to understand how the world works is not the same as religious faith.

It is not hard to come to terms that no one is in charge, atheist parents are successful raising their children with that all the time (I was, too). That is part of the argument that atheists are inherently immoral if they are not taught religious faith.

Morals are an evolutionary development. Religion was pasted on later.

410
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:44:49pm

re: #401 Anymouse

The book is used to twist the minds of children who cannot tell the difference between evil words and good ones. Their parents tell them that everything in that book is the Word of God (tm). A certain number growing up believe every word is true.

The book is written agitprop or stochastic terrorism. If the book did not exist, then the hatred of gays would mostly disappear.

Everyone is born an atheist. They are taught religion. And religion is a feature of world geography for the most part. They cannot be all right, but they can be all wrong.

Only to be replaced by something else. There are always going to be those who manipulate others and spread fear & hatred for various reasons, just as there will always be those who do the opposite. Unfortunately, along with the noble stuff evil seems to be part of human nature. As long as the former outweighs the latter we’ll survive.

Look, even if you say, “Okay, religion is just man-made fairy tales used to control people,” and you could abolish all of them tomorrow, how long do you suppose it would be before some enterprising individual who understood what makes people tick came up with a new one? I’d venture to say not very long.

411
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:44:50pm

re: #408 palomino

They can’t even manage to bring any legislation to the floor for a debate, much less a vote.

412
gocart mozart  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:45:37pm

re: #374 Backwoods_Sleuth

413
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:46:43pm

re: #406 Backwoods_Sleuth

Meanwhile in free peach land:

[Embedded content]

I was wondering how long it would take him to seize on this latest tragedy.

414
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:46:55pm

re: #412 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

He looks a lot like the Orlando shooter.
I’m not joking.

415
Eric The Fruit Bat  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:47:11pm

re: #402 Belafon

Here in Texas, it’s illegal to be walking around with martial arts equipment. If you can ban those, you can restrict automatic weapons.

The justification for banning martial arts weapons from gun enthusiast I’ve heard was that, unlike a firearm where you can do a ballistics test, no such ability exists with martial arts weapons. Sounds pretty piss poor to me….

416
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:47:46pm

re: #409 Anymouse

Born with the need to understand how the world works is not the same as religious faith.

It is not hard to come to terms that no one is in charge, atheist parents are successful raising their children with that all the time (I was, too). That is part of the argument that atheists are inherently immoral if they are not taught religious faith.

Morals are an evolutionary development. Religion was pasted on later.

It can be hard if you have to figure it out on your own. I went to church a lot as a kid. And I will tell you there are times as an atheist that I wish there were someone in charge that I could talk to about changing things, and by wish I mean “Why won’t God fix it? That’s right, he’s not real.” My kids, on the other hand, don’t think in those terms.

417
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:47:50pm

re: #413 CuriousLurker

I was wondering how long it would take him to seize on this latest tragedy.

He hasn’t posted anything yet (unless FB already deleted it).

418
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:48:34pm

re: #410 CuriousLurker

Not looking to outlaw religion. Looking to educate against it.

If churches can bring creationism (intelligent design, insert religious view here) in our public schools, we get to insert science classes like evolutionary biology in church.

For Sunday School I recommend Richard Dawkins’s “The Magic of Reality.” (I gave a copy of that book to the village library; it was checked out so often my wife ordered a second copy of it when she was librarian. She also ordered a Bible since the library only had a historic Civil War one that was not available for checkout. The Bible she ordered sits on the shelf for over two years never even removed - except to dust the shelf. She felt that as an atheist she might be considered a bigot if she did not provide a Bible for the library.)

419
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:49:12pm

re: #415 Eric The Fruit Bat

The justification for banning martial arts weapons from gun enthusiast I’ve heard was that, unlike a firearm where you can do a ballistics test, no such ability exists with martial arts weapons. Sounds pretty piss poor to me….

The reason for the ban was originally gangs. It should have been overturned in the courts, but keeping it allowed cops to go after minorities.

420
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:49:55pm

re: #410 CuriousLurker

Only to be replaced by something else. There are always going to be those who manipulate others and spread fear & hatred for various reasons, just as there will; always be those who do the opposite. Unfortunately, along with the noble stuff evil seems to be part of human nature. As long as the former outweighs the latter we’ll survive.

Look, even if you say, “Okay, religion is just man-made fairy tales used to control people,” and you could abolish all of them tomorrow, how long do you suppose it would be before some enterprising individual who understood what makes people tick came up with a new one? I’d venture to say not very long.

This is one reason I always resist making atheism into any kind of organizing principle. As soon as that happens, you’ll get orthodoxy, proselytizing, and zealots. Fuck that noise.

421
Belafon  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:50:38pm

re: #420 Blind Frog Belly White

This is one reason I always resist making atheism into any kind of organizing principle. As soon as that happens, you’ll get orthodoxy, proselytizing, and zealots. Fuck that noise.

I would disagree except Richard Dawkins.

422
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:50:53pm

re: #418 Anymouse

I’m not a Dawkins fan, so I’m gonna leave that one alone.

423
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:51:15pm

re: #416 Belafon

It can be hard if you have to figure it out on your own. I went to church a lot as a kid. And I will tell you there are times as an atheist that I wish there were someone in charge that I could talk to about changing things, and by wish I mean “Why won’t God fix it? That’s right, he’s not real.” My kids, on the other hand, don’t think in those terms.

And another link in the chain of religion is broken. It is unlikely your children will subscribe to a religious faith, as they all equally make claims that cannot be proven. For someone who never had faith, they all look the same.

My son benefits from me being an atheist and my parents being atheists.

424
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:52:24pm

re: #422 CuriousLurker

I’m not a Dawkins fan, so I’m gonna leave that one alone.

I am not either, but the book is very good. It is written for children, but is very readable by adults. (It also has good illustrations like many children’s books.)

425
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:53:59pm

re: #423 Anymouse

And another link in the chain of religion is broken. It is unlikely your children will subscribe to a religious faith, as they all equally make claims that cannot be proven. For someone who never had faith, they all look the same.

My son benefits from me being an atheist and my parents being atheists.

Oddly enough, I and my atheism benefited from my parents and the rest of my family being believers. It led me to a more tolerant view, because I learned that belief, even deeply held belief, does not have to be a weapon to use against others. It can also be a guide to trying to make a better world, on little bit at a time.

426
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:54:16pm

Wife wants me to get off. (Wait, that isn’t phrased right.)

Wife wants me to log off. (That’s a little better.) She is telling me I am way past my bedtime. (I feel like a six-year-old.)

Good night (afternoon) all… .

427
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:54:42pm

re: #425 Blind Frog Belly White

Mind you, this also made me LESS tolerant of intolerant believers, because I KNOW that their religion doesn’t really require bigotry.

428
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:55:50pm

re: #426 Anymouse

Wife wants me to get off. (Wait, that isn’t phrased right.)

Wife wants me to log off. (That’s a little better.) She is telling me I am way past my bedtime. (I feel like a six-year-old.)

Good night (afternoon) all… .

I just HAD to…
429
Anymouse  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:55:57pm

re: #425 Blind Frog Belly White

Oddly enough, I and my atheism benefited from my parents and the rest of my family being believers. It led me to a more tolerant view, because I learned that belief, even deeply held belief, does not have to be a weapon to use against others. It can also be a guide to trying to make a better world, on little bit at a time.

Good people will be good without religion, bad people will be bad despite religion.

Religion benefits from organisation when it does good (with the usual skim for the preachers/church/&c).

Doctors without Borders also benefits from organisation and is entirely secular. One does not need religion to be good, or do good.

Bye y’all.

430
CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:56:59pm

And I’m gonna go get ready for Monday. Ugh.

Later, lizards.

431
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 5:59:03pm

re: #429 Anymouse

Good people will be good without religion, bad people will be bad despite religion.

Religion benefits from organisation when it does good (with the usual skim for the preachers/church/&c).

Doctors without Borders also benefits from organisation and is entirely secular. One does not need religion to be good, or do good.

Bye y’all.

I wonder if it doesn’t work like the Supersoldier Serum in Captain America - whatever you already are, or were going to be, it makes you more so. If you’re an asshole, it makes you an asshole who feels like God WANTS him to be an asshole. If you’re inclined to fight for the underdog, you feel like God WANTS you to fight for the underdog.

432
Barefoot Grin  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:07:21pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like that AT ALL. There’s nothing wrong with gun collecting and its not collectors who carry out mass shootings. The issue is not the guy in downstate Illinois who has an M1 Carbine from every manufacturer except Howra of Japan (he really does exist, btw), the issue is the guy who wants 1 M1 Carbine for a criminal purpose.

I don’t denigrate peoples’ fetishes hobbies, but why not beer cans or pocket watches?

433
Barefoot Grin  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:10:13pm

re: #412 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

This guy’s forehead makes the “L” sign naturally.

434
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:10:25pm

re: #432 Barefoot Grin

I don’t denigrate peoples’ fetishes hobbies, but why not beer cans or pocket watches?

If you’re a collector, you’re generally driven to collect that particular thing. As a watch collector, I could no more bring myself to collect beer cans than I could will myself to fly.

435
Barefoot Grin  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:16:44pm

re: #434 Blind Frog Belly White

If you’re a collector, you’re generally driven to collect that particular thing. As a watch collector, I could no more bring myself to collect beer cans than I could will myself to fly.

I know. I’m just beyond exasperated by our gun culture and am increasingly having a hard time, as a long-time non-gun-enthusiast, understanding the outsized place that guns seem to have in America.

436
Blind Frog Belly White  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:19:14pm

re: #435 Barefoot Grin

I know. I’m just beyond exasperated by our gun culture and am increasingly having a hard time, as a long-time non-gun-enthusiast, understanding the outsized place that guns seem to have in America.

Dark is right, though. It’s not the guy with a collection of vintage weapons who’s the problem. It’s the guy with a hoard of NEW weapons and a cache of ammo.

437
b_sharp  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:30:36pm

re: #420 Blind Frog Belly White

This is one reason I always resist making atheism into any kind of organizing principle. As soon as that happens, you’ll get orthodoxy, proselytizing, and zealots. Fuck that noise.

It would be easier to herd cats than organize atheists.

438
Barefoot Grin  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:30:41pm

re: #436 Blind Frog Belly White

Dark is right, though. It’s not the guy with a collection of vintage weapons who’s the problem. It’s the guy with a hoard of NEW weapons and a cache of ammo.

It’s true. I agree. But I won’t apologize for my statement. I’m sick of guns. Emotional and irrational? Yes. And I’ll accept any criticism of that.

439
b_sharp  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:31:51pm

re: #422 CuriousLurker

I’m not a Dawkins fan, so I’m gonna leave that one alone.

Dawkins is a good zoologist and has done a good job of popularizing evolution, but his ideas on atheism & theism are particularly narrow.

440
b_sharp  Jun 12, 2016 • 6:32:58pm

re: #425 Blind Frog Belly White

Oddly enough, I and my atheism benefited from my parents and the rest of my family being believers. It led me to a more tolerant view, because I learned that belief, even deeply held belief, does not have to be a weapon to use against others. It can also be a guide to trying to make a better world, on little bit at a time.

My wife has moderated my atheism.

441
steve_davis  Jun 12, 2016 • 8:10:34pm

re: #59 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

So I would have to have an insurance policy on an item I might use a few times a year? I get car insurance, i drive every day and there’s always a risk of accident. My rifles on the other hand are safely stored and only pulled out when I go to the range (which I have yet to do since getting them) or go hunting (again, haven’t done in years).

you can garage a car 364 days out of the year. If you use it one day out of the year, you are required to maintain insurance on it.

442
meteor  Jun 13, 2016 • 4:08:20am

re: #81 Eclectic Cyborg

Heh, Prick Scott. How come I never thought of that?

The P is silent.

Old joke here (I live near Tampa).

443
Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 13, 2016 • 6:44:33am

...


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