CNN: Trump Is Furious After Being Humiliated in the Alabama Primary

“Embarrassed and pissed”
Politics • Views: 29,015

After pushing hard to get Alabama Republicans to nominate establishment candidate Luther Strange (shown above towering over the grinning Trump-thing), the right wing base handed Donald Trump a humiliating defeat last night. They picked probably the single most batshit Republican candidate ever to run for the Senate (and that’s saying something): Roy Moore. The Dominionist fanatic who wants to criminalize homosexuality and said the 9/11 attacks were God’s punishment for legalizing abortion and “sodomy.”

The guy who pulled out a gun and waved it around at an election eve rally.

And the Trump-thing is furious, because if there’s one thing he hates (and actually, there are a lot of things and people he hates) it’s being humiliated. He’s not actually opposed to anything about Roy Moore, of course; he’s just in a rage because he lost. CNN reports:

Returning from a high-dollar fundraiser in Manhattan on Tuesday evening, an infuriated President Donald Trump watched aboard Air Force One as Fox News called the Alabama Senate primary for Roy Moore against Trump’s favored candidate, Luther Strange.

What ensued was a barrage of angry venting at his political team and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who had consolidated establishment GOP support behind Strange. Trump, officials and informal advisers say, felt misled by McConnell and his political team, who encouraged him to endorse and campaign for Strange.

[…]

He went to bed “embarrassed and pissed” following the election loss, according to a person familiar with his mindset. Trump, multiple sources said, is furious with McConnell, and feels outdone by his former aide Bannon.

Nice to see that the White House is still leaking like a sieve.

And last night, in a futile attempt to hide how badly he had screwed up, Trump deleted a series of tweets boosting Luther Strange and falsely claiming he had helped Strange build his support.

It’s still hard to believe this bizarre narcissistic egomaniac is actually the president of the United States.

Also see

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288 comments

1
Kragar  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:51:06am
2
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:53:29am

re: #1 Kragar

Virtually no President has accomplished what we have accomplished in the first 9 months

That’s because most presidents actually accomplish something in their first year in office. So, he’s right, from a certain point of view

3
Franklin  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:54:27am
4
Eclectic Cyborg  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:55:55am

re: #3 Franklin

Seriously. Is Strange a really tall dude or is Trump shorter than I thought he was?

5
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:56:29am

re: #1 Kragar

6
Franklin  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:56:45am

re: #4 Eclectic Cyborg

Seriously. Is Strange a really tall dude or is Trump shorter than I thought he was?

Strange is apparently 6’ 9” wowza. That’s a lot of assh*le.

7
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:56:58am

re: #4 Eclectic Cyborg

Seriously. Is Strange a really tall dude or is Trump shorter than I thought he was?

Strange is 6’9”… Trump is allegedly like 6’2”.

8
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:57:30am

re: #4 Eclectic Cyborg

Seriously. Is Strange a really tall dude or is Trump shorter than I thought he was?

Luther Strange is yuge. Trump is 6’ 2”.

9
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:58:04am

re: #3 Franklin

[Embedded content]

Looks about 6’11” if Trump’s height is accurately reported. Google say 6’9”

10
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 11:59:04am

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Luther Strange is yuge. Trump is 6’ 2”.

When have you known Trump not to exaggerate?

11
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:00:27pm

re: #10 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

When have you known Trump not to exaggerate?

Might be partly exaggeration, but he’s also over 70, an age when people tend to start shrinking

12
b.d. (bill d.)  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:01:09pm

re: #9 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

Looks about 6’11” if Trump’s height is accurately reported. Google say 6’9”

teh wiki says Strange is 6’9”.

Not sure if that number reflects getting his ass handed to him or not?

13
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:02:40pm

Roy Moore at a rally on election eve.

14
Interesting Times  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:02:59pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Luther Strange is yuge. Trump is 6’ 2”.

And yet, in that photo, Luther’s hands look no bigger than trump’s! Strange (heh) to see such tiny hands on a guy that tall.

15
makeitstop  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:07:14pm

re: #14 Interesting Times

And yet, in that photo, Luther’s hands look no bigger than trump’s!

That’s probably why Trump backed him.

/

16
Unshaken Defiance  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:08:33pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

It’s truly insecure men who feel the need to whip it out and brag. But seriously, such a tiny little gun. Despite the insanity of waving a loaded gun around, it was also a point and laugh thing.

17
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:10:56pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Roy Moore at a rally on election eve.

[Embedded content]

“Canes in Congress were so 19th century.”

18
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:12:29pm

re: #14 Interesting Times

And yet, in that photo, Luther’s hands look no bigger than trump’s! Strange (heh) to see such tiny hands on a guy that tall.

That’s how you can spot the Reptilians.
/Alex Jones in an alternate universe, where he isn’t a Republican propagandist.

19
The Vicious Babushka  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:16:48pm

I hate that “thumbs up” sign. Trump has crooked thumbs. Why would he want to show off his crooked misshapen thumbs?

20
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:17:20pm
21
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:19:37pm

barf

22
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:20:16pm
23
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:20:38pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Roy Moore at a rally on election eve.

[Embedded content]

Vote for me, or the cracker gets it?

24
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:21:07pm
25
gocart mozart  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:21:40pm
26
Mike Lamb  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:23:42pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

He’s mocking the thumbs down? Look, I think that McCain is an epic douche-nozzle, but his thumb’s down routine was dope.

(And any adult person that uses the thumbs as his absolute go-to move needs to shut the fuck up about anything thumb related).

27
Mike Lamb  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:25:11pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Freedom Caucus is already on board…because they are big on reducing the deficit…

28
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:27:50pm
29
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:28:35pm
30
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:28:52pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

]

How will he pay for the extra police he’ll need to keep the rioting peasants in check? Oh, never mind, he has Fox News and reality TV to provide the circus, and they can sell the bread while they’re at it.

31
nines09  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:30:03pm

Picking up my guitar more. Revisiting some old places. Here’s a new take on an old beauty. Saw them two years ago and if you can, do it.
John Prine is a national treasure. He wrote a ton of gems.

Angel From Montgomery - Tedeschi Trucks Band(Infinity Hall Live 2015)

32
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:30:17pm

Trump’s solution to high welfare costs? Make the poor pay for it themselves!

Math? Math is for nerds.

33
The Vicious Babushka  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:30:45pm
34
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:31:11pm

re: #26 Mike Lamb

He’s mocking the thumbs down? Look, I think that McCain is an epic douche-nozzle, but his thumb’s down routine was dope.

(And any adult person that uses the thumbs as his absolute go-to move needs to shut the fuck up about anything thumb related).

I think he was mocking the mechanics of McCain’s thumbs down, which means he was mocking him for his injuries from the Hanoi Hilton. If I recall correctly, McCain can’t raise his arms above his shoulders due to his injuries as a POW. So, basically, Trump was (once again) mocking McCain for being a POW.

35
Kragar  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:31:50pm
36
b.d. (bill d.)  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:33:19pm

Is it last April already?

37
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:33:20pm

re: #29 Backwoods_Sleuth

38
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:36:06pm

pretending to care about Puerto Rico:

39
BlueSpotinAL  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:36:51pm

LOL at the CNN photo. Trump trying to looks serious and presidential, while sporting what looks like a vulva on his neck.

40
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:37:02pm
41
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:37:11pm

re: #38 Backwoods_Sleuth

42
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:38:20pm
43
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:38:21pm
44
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:39:26pm
45
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:40:54pm

good grief

46
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:41:14pm

SABOTAGE

47
wrenchwench  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:42:06pm

re: #31 nines09

Picking up my guitar more. Revisiting some old places. Here’s a new take on an old beauty. Saw them two years ago and if you can, do it.
John Prine is a national treasure. He wrote a ton of gems.

[Embedded content]

Video

Every girl with a guitar at my college had to cover that one. (None did it so well, needless to say.)

48
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:42:18pm
49
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:45:43pm

re: #45 Backwoods_Sleuth

good grief

[Embedded content]

Good god, shut the fuck up.

50
Mike Lamb  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:46:18pm

re: #34 KGxvi

I think he was mocking the mechanics of McCain’s thumbs down, which means he was mocking him for his injuries from the Hanoi Hilton. If I recall correctly, McCain can’t raise his arms above his shoulders due to his injuries as a POW. So, basically, Trump was (once again) mocking McCain for being a POW.

There was nothing “mockable” about it. I mean if he didn’t have his injuries, does Fuckface think McCain should raise his hand like he’s in school?

51
Mike Lamb  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:47:31pm

re: #35 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Leaving aside that it’s already legal, wasn’t one of the major challenged to ACA was that Obama made changes via EO that needed to be authorized by Congress?

52
Kragar  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:47:38pm

I think I’ve gone viral

53
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:48:05pm

re: #52 Kragar

I think I’ve gone viral

[Embedded content]

Celebrity.//

54
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:48:51pm

re: #52 Kragar

Lemme go add to that, unless I already retweeted yesterday which is very possible.

55
Mike Lamb  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:50:21pm

re: #48 Backwoods_Sleuth

Unfortunately, they are partially funded the other 99%…

56
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:51:12pm

jeebus…he is such a maroon…

57
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:53:00pm

RCh1RBhiV+ToQtASJyRRm7jgz/1TqKiUbeLWToGpaSkJhvRl5Yb8twXBIpi51VbZoUzzsTNQhD/iA7ffXYc4DjobKqfFzctUbFUrdmXDHiaslGkmXIGVoQ==

58
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:56:58pm

re: #51 Mike Lamb

Yes, but you’re emphasizing this:

Leaving aside that it’s already legal, wasn’t one of the major challenged to ACA was that Obama made changes via EO that needed to be authorized by Congress?

While they were emphasizing this:

Leaving aside that it’s already legal, wasn’t one of the major challenged to ACA was that Obama made changes via EO that needed to be authorized by Congress?

59
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:57:32pm
60
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:58:17pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

GF3YC+auf/uweBElP3bKlAB7PHRwGpwvUZCOwOhWpVLeqer6ltU9NrWbKidFpun6ekClkqEcqGM=

61
GlutenFreeJesus  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:58:52pm

He’s lowering corporate (rich CEOs) taxes by a significant amount, and raising lower/middle class taxes from 10% to 12%. Fuck this shit. And imagine what they’ll propose cutting to pay for the $5T (I bet it’ll be much higher) price tag.

62
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 12:59:07pm

this bullshit again:

63
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:00:00pm

re: #62 Backwoods_Sleuth

this bullshit again:

[Embedded content]

It’s all a goddamned game to him.

64
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:00:01pm

Weird messenger here!

65
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:00:34pm

re: #62 Backwoods_Sleuth

this bullshit again:

[Embedded content]

It’ll be a Russian invasion.

66
nines09  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:01:28pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

Every girl with a guitar at my college had to cover that one. (None did it so well, needless to say.)

Susan is an immense talent, has Bonnie Raitt soul and delivery.

67
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:01:35pm

re: #64 JordanRules

Weird messenger here!

[Embedded content]

Luntz is largely responsible for the GOP being a mess but this is correct.

68
John_Manyjars  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:02:07pm

re: #39 BlueSpotinAL

I visited an Air Force base yesterday, and noted the ‘chain of command’ photos they had at the entrance to a building- these ‘POTUS’ (quotes intentional), SecDef, SecAF, etc.

I can’t recall, going back to Nixon, a President that didn’t smile for his photo. tRump breaks the mold again (and I think he was wearing his stupid red ‘power/penis’ tie too).

Somehow, the scowl made me want to laugh at loud- but no one would have heard me.

69
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:03:24pm

re: #68 John_Manyjars

I visited an Air Force base yesterday, and noted the ‘chain of command’ photos they had at the entrance to a building- these ‘POTUS’ (quotes intentional), SecDef, SecAF, etc.

I can’t recall, going back to Nixon, a President that didn’t smile for his photo. tRump breaks the mold again (and I think he was wearing his stupid red ‘power/penis’ tie too).

Somehow, the scowl made me want to laugh at loud- but no one would have heard me.

He’s a lot like Nixon in a lot of ways. The photo being only one example.

70
Kragar  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:04:28pm
71
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:05:23pm

Okay, okay I like this! Check out the thread.
These are the major moves I like for us to at least try to fix some of the systemic problems.

72
Eclectic Cyborg  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:06:09pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

YsooLYr7GoHYX/wgPwJWuL0CpTJ6mrtoO+ARDAM3rtScAlpu6q3m0g==

73
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:08:20pm

re: #71 JordanRules

Okay, okay I like this! Check out the thread.
These are the major moves I like for us to at least try to fix some of the systemic problems.

[Embedded content]

Awesome.

74
sizzzzlerz  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:12:15pm

re: #7 KGxvi

Strange is 6’9”… Trump is allegedly like 6’2”.

With or without the dead possum on his head?

75
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:14:31pm

Sooooo fucked up

76
The Vicious Babushka  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:15:05pm
77
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:16:15pm

re: #75 Stanley Sea

There’s got to be some weird story/motivation there that hasn’t been uncovered yet.
Maggie and Glenn should get right on that!

78
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:16:16pm

re: #75 Stanley Sea

Sooooo fucked up

[Embedded content]

Yeah because Stephen Miller’s opinions > People who actually know what they’re talking about. Sigh.

79
The Vicious Babushka  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:16:20pm
80
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:16:49pm

re: #77 JordanRules

There’s got to be some weird story/motivation there that hasn’t been uncovered yet
Maggie and Glenn should get right on that!

Maybe Miller got picked on by some black guy named Chad and he thinks this is his way of getting back? //

81
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:17:01pm

Somewhere someone is thinking of mutiny.

82
nines09  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:17:25pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

Check the harp player in this older Bonnie Raitt video. He changes about 4 keys….Then does an almost impossible faux chromatic lick at the end. (Stacks two harps)…Notice the 2 pieces of duct tape over the face of the amp in the back of Bonnie. Looks like a Music Man 2X10, which like Fenders can get “ice picky” with treble. For some reason they taped over the logo on the left. Example. Hmmm…

That’s todays lesson. Thanks for tuning in.

Bonnie Raitt - Runaway (Live 1977)

83
makeitstop  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:17:27pm

Garland mocks Haberman, rightfully.

84
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:17:36pm

Facebook Post

He may have a point with his right-wing audience. These products might well have saved the infamous Republican cannibal Alferd Packer from a prison sentence.
Alas, the judge’s statement condemning Packer for eating most of the local Democrats is apparently apocryphal. It is a fact though that there are still very Democrats in Hinsdale County Colorado.

85
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:18:16pm

re: #81 Stanley Sea

Gotta be!

86
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:18:46pm

re: #83 makeitstop

Garland mocks Haberman, rightfully.

[Embedded content]

Hahahha so true.

87
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:20:01pm

Tax rates are not an indicator of economic growth, and there’s clear historical record of how the economy grew as compared to tax rates. In fact, the US saw significantly higher economic growth rates while the top tax rate was above 70% than since it was lowered.

Again, we’ve got Cillizza’s attempt to claim Trump’s got a strategy for what he’s doing. There’s no strategy. There’s no plan. It’s all reactionary mumbo jumbo and he has no idea what he’s doing on anything.

88
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:20:47pm

Anybody ever figure out why Dotard Jr. ditched his SS protection just for a week?
Any journos chasing that down?

89
Interesting Times  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:23:43pm

If this is true, file under “Chickens, homeward-bound for roosting purposes”

90
wrenchwench  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:23:43pm

re: #82 nines09

That’s todays lesson. Thanks for tuning in.

Video

Very nice. Thank you.

Totally unrelated, but it was on my clipboard:

Paul Simon - Born In Puerto Rico (Demo With Jose Feliciano)

91
Charles Johnson  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:23:55pm
92
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:24:27pm

re: #88 JordanRules

Anybody ever figure out why Dotard Jr. ditched his SS protection just for a week?
Any journos chasing that down?

If a Democrat in Dotard Jr’s situation had ditched the SS for a week, the entire RWNJ noise machine would have converged on a story that this was to hide the Democrat’s participation in Satanic rituals where freshly aborted 8-month fetuses were cannibalized. Both-siderists in the media would have partially validated this, instead of calling it out as total nonsense.

93
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:25:07pm

re: #89 Interesting Times

If this is true, file under “Chickens, homeward-bound for roosting purposes”

[Embedded content]

Yep. And you’re facing the consequences for using them rather than listening to Obama. You deserve their hate Mitch. They’re ignorant assholes for sure but you’re a powerful asshole.

94
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:25:28pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Grover would murder his wife and kids for a tax cut.

95
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:25:44pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

Which economy is he trying to turn around? The rich are only making 30%/year on their inheritance?

96
Ace-o-aces  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:25:57pm

re: #56 Backwoods_Sleuth

F*&king Millennials.

97
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:25:57pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

He could be right, you know. The economy is in pretty good shape right now and this tax plan might tank it.

98
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:27:36pm

re: #97 calochortus

He could be right, you know. The economy is in pretty good shape right now and this tax plan might tank it.

If the GOP plutocrats were competent, they could probably engineer a temporary boost to the economy timed to coincide with a GOP tax cut.

99
nines09  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:27:47pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

One more before I go.
Gone, of course. He had it.

Paul deLay Chromatic harp master.

Paul deLay - Worn Out Shoes

100
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:28:19pm

Trump/GOP tax plan is a millionaire’s dream - eliminate the estate tax, reduce the top tax rate, get rid of all the high tax portions of the tax law, and shift the burden of raising revenue to everyone else.

This wont generate the economic growth they promise because it never does. Trickle down doesn’t help anyone except the rich, and the burdens are shifted to those who can’t afford them.

When the revenue falls short, the GOP response will be to gut the safety net - the same programs they have continually sought to eliminate despite their clear need (things like FEMA, USCG, NOAA, NFIP, etc.)

101
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:28:21pm

re: #89 Interesting Times

Dummies thinking they can control the hate monster they built and got addicted to insanity and outrage.

102
Ace-o-aces  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:31:08pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

103
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:32:20pm
104
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:33:00pm

re: #103 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

Because Obama was actually a leader. Trump’s a big talking, no action asshole.

105
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:33:04pm

re: #103 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

Yeah, but Japan doesn’t have the Jones Law.
/////////////////////

106
electrotek  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:33:21pm

re: #105 Blind Frog Belly White

Yeah, but Japan doesn’t have the Jones Law.
/////////////////////

And he likes how they “bow”.

107
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:33:31pm

re: #98 EPR-radar

If the GOP plutocrats were competent, they could probably engineer a temporary boost to the economy timed to coincide with a GOP tax cut.

If they were competent.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha-gasp-hahahahahahahaha.

108
wrenchwench  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:34:19pm

re: #99 nines09

One more before I go.
Gone, of course. He had it.

Paul deLay Chromatic harp master.

[Embedded content]

Video

I saw his name, my mind went to Portland, OR. My time there coincided with his, in part. Just another thing I had not enough appreciation of. Thanks, again. Don’t stay away too long.

109
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:35:13pm

re: #103 JordanRules

Ooh it’s a lil thread with the timeline.

110
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:35:51pm

Winners and losers from the Trump tax scam:

Winners:

Millionaires (benefits Trump)
Anyone who has to file the AMT (benefits Trump)
Heirs of large estates (aka eliminating the estate tax - benefits Trump’s spawn)
Higher-earning owners of so-called pass-through businesses (aka Trump benefits personally).

Losers:

Residents of high-tax states.
People who take charitable and mortgage deductions.
High-wage earners (this differs from high income since wages are treated differently under the law than income; Trump doesn’t have high wages, but has high income due to investments).
People with large medical or disaster deductions.

You’ll notice that the significant benefits all side with those who are already well off. Those who lose are those who are already paying more in taxes, or those who have homes (mortgage interest deduction and the deduction for state/local taxes).

The GOP plan basically screws most people in the middle class in return for giving millionaires bigger tax breaks.

SS/DD

111
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:36:36pm

re: #100 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Trump/GOP tax plan is a millionaire’s dream - eliminate the estate tax, reduce the top tax rate, get rid of all the high tax portions of the tax law, and shift the burden of raising revenue to everyone else.

This wont generate the economic growth they promise because it never does. Trickle down doesn’t help anyone except the rich, and the burdens are shifted to those who can’t afford them.

When the revenue falls short, the GOP response will be to gut the safety net - the same programs they have continually sought to eliminate despite their clear need (things like FEMA, USCG, NOAA, NFIP, etc.)

Even the Freepers are doing the math on the bare bones outline that was put out and saying “Wait a minute-I’ll be paying more taxes if I lose these deductions.”
Of course there are a few who think we should return to funding the government with tariffs, but no one has bothered to do the math on what that would do to the price they pay for things.

112
BeachDem  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:37:55pm

re: #89 Interesting Times

If this is true, file under “Chickens, homeward-bound for roosting purposes”

[Embedded content]

Charles P. Pierce sum it up nicely:

I’m Out of Empathy. I’m Out of Pity. I’m Out of Patience.
Roy Moore is a lawless theocratic lunatic, and those who support him are destroying our democracy.

esquire.com

113
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:38:49pm
114
b.d. (bill d.)  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:40:50pm

re: #102 Ace-o-aces

[Embedded content]

Does it matter which order those get done in?

115
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:41:05pm

re: #113 lawhawk

“It’s time to support the president in this period of national crisis.”

116
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:41:10pm

re: #112 BeachDem

Charles P. Pierce sum it up nicely:

I’m Out of Empathy. I’m Out of Pity. I’m Out of Patience.
Roy Moore is a lawless theocratic lunatic, and those who support him are destroying our democracy.

esquire.com

Jones is the kind of man we should be having more of in our office yet because Alabama and right wing bullshit, he’s a longshot.

117
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:42:05pm

re: #110 lawhawk

Okay, let me see…….
Winners:

Millionaires (benefits Trump)

Nope.

Anyone who has to file the AMT (benefits Trump)

Nope.

Heirs of large estates (aka eliminating the estate tax - benefits Trump’s spawn)

Nope.

Higher-earning owners of so-called pass-through businesses (aka Trump benefits personally).

Nope.

Losers:

Residents of high-tax states.

Yup.

People who take charitable and mortgage deductions.

Yup.

High-wage earners (this differs from high income since wages are treated differently under the law than income; Trump doesn’t have high wages, but has high income due to investments).

Yup

People with large medical or disaster deductions.

Kinda.

Well, fuck me. It’s like he’s singling me out.

118
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:42:18pm

And yes I’m out of sympathy too. They keep on nominating abject monsters like Trump, Moore, and others. I want to be able to disagree with people civilly but how can I with someone like Moore?

119
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:44:48pm

re: #117 Blind Frog Belly White

Same here.

Tax Foundation and other outfits will probably be able to create calculators once they have enough info to see how this shakes out; in the meantime, I’d expect them run baseline analysis on what it would do to someone with say 30k, 50k, 150k, 250k income in a low tax state vs high tax state, moderate deductions, etc.

120
BeachDem  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:45:44pm

re: #118 HappyWarrior

And yes I’m out of sympathy too. They keep on nominating abject monsters like Trump, Moore, and others. I want to be able to disagree with people civilly but how can I with someone like Moore?

Pierce goes on…

And, no, when it comes to the people who voted for Moore, I don’t have to “respect their beliefs.” I don’t have to “understand where they’re coming from.” I don’t have to “see it from their side.” These people are preparing to make a lawless theocratic lunatic one of 100 United States Senators, and that means these people are about to inflict him and his medievalism on me, too.

121
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:46:12pm

re: #119 lawhawk

Same here.

Tax Foundation and other outfits will probably be able to create calculators once they have enough info to see how this shakes out; in the meantime, I’d expect them run baseline analysis on what it would do to someone with say 30k, 50k, 150k, 250k income in a low tax state vs high tax state, moderate deductions, etc.

They’re getting to be like cartoon villains.

122
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:46:18pm

The disturbing thing about the Trumps is their hypocrisy is right there in the open for all to see- complaints about “voter fraud”, here’s Jared registered as a woman. But his supporters just don’t care and you know why they don’t care because Hillary Clinton was right. Many of them are deplorable and yes irredeemable. Many of them wanted an unapologetic bigot to run this country and they will accept anyone who fits that bill. It doesn’t matter if they belittle vets, are dishonest, etc. As long as they’re a bigoted bastard, these people are happy and my God I’m ashamed to share my country with them.

123
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:46:40pm

re: #120 BeachDem

Pierce goes on…

And, no, when it comes to the people who voted for Moore, I don’t have to “respect their beliefs.” I don’t have to “understand where they’re coming from.” I don’t have to “see it from their side.” These people are preparing to make a lawless theocratic lunatic one of 100 United States Senators, and that means these people are about to inflict him and his medievalism on me, too.

Spot fucking on.

124
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:48:04pm

re: #112 BeachDem

2ASM3L9jZnsrxxDI39IAChGA0vBe4uBPFNScHdtG9vrCEPG8bDnI+VDo3gxInqk/CPITXHHZNFA41pFbjrVXT6BCOkQoyWRDP4zoiCmX2Tg=

125
nines09  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:49:25pm

re: #108 wrenchwench

Yep. That part of the world. I caught him on his rebound. He died of leukemia, after recovering from being a total wreck. Shame.
I’ve just had to back out it a bit. Just have to regain some equilibrium.

Thanks.

126
Ace-o-aces  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:49:42pm

re: #114 b.d. (bill d.)

Does it matter which order those get done in?

Not to Grover.

127
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:50:41pm

Watched the final episode of The Vietnam War. Gut wrenching. Someday we will abandon the Afghans who trusted us to their fate like we did the South Vietnamese.

128
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:53:10pm

re: #127 Big Beautiful Door

Watched the final episode of The Vietnam War. Gut wrenching. Someday we will abandon the Afghans who trusted us to their fate like we did the South Vietnamese.

What do you do, when you’ve made an enormous mistake with all the best intentions, and you can’t do what you promised, and many, many people will suffer for it?

129
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:55:06pm

re: #64 JordanRules

Weird messenger here!

[Embedded content]In 1964, 73% of Americans felt “negroes should stop demonstrations now that they have made their point.

“made their point”??? wtf

the civil rights act was 3 months old

it is 2017 and there is still not liberty and justice for all

130
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:56:30pm

re: #69 HappyWarrior

He’s a lot like Nixon in a lot of ways. The photo being only one example.

im counting on his term being truncated as another one

131
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:56:54pm

re: #129 dangerman

“made their point”??? wtf

the civil rights act was 3 months old

it is 2017 and there is still not liberty and justice for all

“You got a law passed. What else do you want?”
“Liberty.”
“You got a law passed. What else do you want?”

The whites wanted the blacks to go away. They thought, and they still think, that this is all a zero sum game.

132
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:56:56pm

re: #128 Blind Frog Belly White

What do you do, when you’ve made an enormous mistake with all the best intentions, and you can’t do what you promised, and many, many people will suffer for it?

Great question. I don’t have any answers.

133
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:58:34pm

re: #128 Blind Frog Belly White

What do you do, when you’ve made an enormous mistake with all the best intentions, and you can’t do what you promised, and many, many people will suffer for it?

If you are Trump, you brag about your ratings…

134
electrotek  Sep 27, 2017 • 1:58:42pm
135
stpaulbear  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:00:59pm

Ken Burnes talking about Trump in July of 2016, before the election. This put a lump in my throat.

Historian Ken Burns denounces Donald Trump

136
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:02:08pm

re: #107 calochortus

If they were competent.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha-gasp-hahahahahahahaha.

Peter Thiel is at least this competent. Fortunately he doesn’t play well with others, even for a Republican sociopath.

137
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:02:26pm

re: #87 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Again, we’ve got Cillizza’s attempt to claim Trump’s got a strategy for what he’s doing. There’s no strategy. There’s no plan. It’s all reactionary mumbo jumbo and he has no idea what he’s doing on anything.

demand leads to growth - people need to want things and have money to spend

“investment” ie tax cuts for those with extra money, doesnt fuel growth. they park it.

if there were demand for products, services, factories now, there would be an opportunity NOW, and they’d be going up NOW

138
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:03:01pm

re: #75 Stanley Sea

Sooooo fucked up

[Embedded content]

139
I Would Prefer Not To  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:04:06pm

re: #59 Backwoods_Sleuth

Show us your taxes or shut the fuck hell up

fixed

140
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:04:32pm

re: #130 dangerman

im counting on his term being truncated as another one

Yep.

141
Jay C  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:06:31pm

re: #128 Blind Frog Belly White

What do you do, when you’ve made an enormous mistake with all the best intentions, and you can’t do what you promised, and many, many people will suffer for it?

Well, in the traditional American style, you:

1, Ignore it/pretend it didn’t happen
2, Blame “somebody else” for the bad decisions
3. Lambaste any/all critics of said decision (see no.2)

142
alloutofcrazyhere  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:06:47pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

Oh Grover, Grover, Grover …

Shame the picture is of such low quality.
143
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:07:37pm

re: #138 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

I’m working on my response to those complaining about football players kneeling (includes my parents), and one of the things I’m discussing is why whites don’t have a problem with police brutality. One of the things to think about is whites are willing to accepts other whites getting killed by police as long as blacks are getting killed as well.

144
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:07:39pm

re: #75 Stanley Sea

INT WHITE HOUSE - OVAL OFFICE

The president is meeting with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense. Seated just behind and to the side of the president is his advisor Stephen Miller.

Miller: Chad is an asshole, guy picked on me all the way through junior high and high school

Tillerson: Um, I’m pretty sure Chad is a country in Africa.

Mattis: They work with us on terrorism, they’re part of the Trans-Saharan Counterterrorism Initiative

Miller: Seriously, fuck that Chad guy, he can’t come in.

Trump: Yeah, no Chads!

FADE OUT

145
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:08:12pm

re: #103 JordanRules

146
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:08:17pm

re: #131 Belafon

147
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:09:21pm

re: #144 KGxvi

INT WHITE HOUSE - OVAL OFFICE

The president is meeting with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense. Seated just behind and to the side of the president is his advisor Stephen Miller.

Miller: Chad is an asshole, guy picked on me all the way through junior high and high school

Tillerson: Um, I’m pretty sure Chad is a country in Africa.

Mattis: They work with us on terrorism, they’re part of the Trans-Saharan Counterterrorism Initiative

Miller: Seriously, fuck that Chad guy, he can’t come in.

Trump: Yeah, no Chads!

FADE OUT

Ha!

148
whitebeach  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:10:47pm

re: #127 Big Beautiful Door

Watched the final episode of The Vietnam War. Gut wrenching. Someday we will abandon the Afghans who trusted us to their fate like we did the South Vietnamese.

I don’t think that many South Vietnamese “trusted” us any more than I think Afghanistan is crowded with folks who “trust” us. Many of the Vietnamese trying to board those last desperate flights had been supporters of the corrupt and deeply hated Saigon government and had as much reason to fear the South Vietnamese people as they did the North Vietnamese troops. We propped them up for more than a decade, seriously harming our own country in the process, and as far as I’m concerned we didn’t owe them a damn thing more. As for the Afghans, the day we and our allies finally leave, my guess is that they will simply go back to their millennia-old local pastime of warring on each other.

149
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:11:12pm

Miller won’t be satisfied until he bans all non whites.

150
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:11:16pm

I always knew GOP ‘tax reform’ would be unmitigated evil, but even I’m surprised by the chutzpah of proposing to completely eliminate the estate tax.

We have a real problem in this country of a plutocracy that is increasingly based on massive inherited wealth, and the estate tax is the only bit of public policy we have that even symbolically opposes this trend.

151
alloutofcrazyhere  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:12:59pm

re: #146 JordanRules

I am pretty sure if that guy on the left was one of those cops from say St. Louis, Cleveland, or really anywhere that some type of brutality has happened, that last panel would have an officer screaming “stop resisting” over and over.

152
Belafon  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:15:47pm

re: #144 KGxvi

Chad also caused problems for the last Republican president.

153
BeachDem  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:18:27pm

re: #124 Stanley Sea

48lkVWaYLTk4G2hDx+fuNG+sQQM6CeQCzLzKka7QC6xrZV7l+aT0M6MkZDkNkRbj9J331hJfTo0r04XfOXXGvPxss+67UTcgz+WMtKNHVCoL53Mm3u0wIA==

154
plansbandc  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:20:00pm

re: #31 nines09

Fave live band. We try to see them once a year.

155
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:21:15pm

re: #143 Belafon

I’m working on my response to those complaining about football players kneeling (includes my parents), and one of the things I’m discussing is why whites don’t have a problem with police brutality. One of the things to think about is whites are willing to accepts other whites getting killed by police as long as blacks are getting killed as well.

I’ve been threatened by deeply-stupid Chicago cops, and probably came pretty close to a beating, when I was arrested for being attacked. This was about 30 years ago, and the force was a nightmare.

156
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:21:16pm

re: #131 Belafon

“You got a law passed. What else do you want?”
“Liberty.”
“You got a law passed. What else do you want?”

The whites wanted the blacks to go away. They thought, and they still think, that this is all a zero sum game.

agreed

what else do i want?
the law(s) that was/were passed to actually be respected, enforced and to do what they were intended to do

157
alloutofcrazyhere  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:21:57pm

And I thought Texas textbooks had issues.

Yoda pictured in official social studies textbook in Saudi Arabia.

Link

158
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:23:41pm

re: #148 whitebeach

I don’t think that many South Vietnamese “trusted” us any more than I think Afghanistan is crowded with folks who “trust” us. Many of the Vietnamese trying to board those last desperate flights had been supporters of the corrupt and deeply hated Saigon government and had as much reason to fear the South Vietnamese people as they did the North Vietnamese troops. We propped them up for more than a decade, seriously harming our own country in the process, and as far as I’m concerned we didn’t owe them a damn thing more. As for the Afghans, the day we and our allies finally leave, my guess is that they will simply go back to their millennia-old local pastime of warring on each other.

There were ordinary people who worked with the US Army and the South Vietnamese government who were promised transport out then casually abandoned. Your statement is a rationalization of our shameful treatment of them.

159
I Would Prefer Not To  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:23:41pm
160
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:24:57pm

re: #145 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

[Embedded content]That’s when we had a qualified President, not an orange asshole who was elected by people who want to show hatred for America.

That’s when we had a qualified President, not an orange asshole who was elected by people who are willing to let other americans die

161
The Major  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:26:08pm

162
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:26:20pm

The disconnect to me couldn’t be any more obvious. African-Americans are told by conservative whites to just listen to the police and to follow the law. Roy Moore didn’t do his job twice when he was an Alabama judge and now he’s a nominee and the front runner for Senate but please tell me how white privilege ain’t a thing.

163
gwangung  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:27:51pm

re: #158 Big Beautiful Door

There were ordinary people who worked with the US Army and the South Vietnamese government who were promised transport out then casually abandoned. Your statement is a rationalization of our shameful treatment of them.

A playwright friend of mine wrote about the generation of Vietnamese who fled. He was deeply surprised on the attitudes and opinions of his parents and their friends, as well as many others of that generation.

Yes, much of that government was corrupt, but…so is much of our current government. I think Americans are much too American centered when it comes to Vietnam and its people.

164
The Major  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:28:10pm

re: #162 HappyWarrior

“Those people, who have lost a sense of history, are going to have to re-live it themselves.”
—Leo Buscaglia, “Speaking of Love”

165
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:28:49pm

In sportsball news, Rick Pitino and the University of Louisville A.D. Tom Jurich become the first major names to get axed after revelation of yet another major scandal happening right under their noses they supposedly knew nothing about.

kentucky.com

166
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:28:56pm

re: #164 The Major

“Those people, who have lost a sense of history, are going to have to re-live it themselves.”
—Leo Buscaglia, “Speaking of Love”

History repeats itself. Historians repeat each other.

167
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:28:58pm

re: #148 whitebeach

The framing here is so pro-Western to me that even though you are technically right about a few things it’s given me a lot of pause.

I wonder if we hadn’t been fighting with/for everyone else if we’d have the same local pastime, warring with each other. We could also just lock up more of our citizens than anyone else though to help with that.

168
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:29:40pm

re: #163 gwangung

A playwright friend of mine wrote about the generation of Vietnamese who fled. He was deeply surprised on the attitudes and opinions of his parents and their friends, as well as many others of that generation.

Yes, much of that government was corrupt, but…so is much of our current government. I think Americans are much too American centered when it comes to Vietnam and its people.

The impression I’ve gotten of many of the Vietnamese- north and south interviewed on the documentary is these were ordinary men and women stuck in an extraordinary situation.

169
The Major  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:30:06pm

re: #166 Quoth the raven, Covfefe.

History repeats itself. Historians repeat each other.

Ah-yup…

170
petesh  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:30:20pm

re: #152 Belafon

Chad also caused problems for the last Republican president.

I understood they hanged him?

171
BlueSpotinAL  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:32:19pm

re: #62 Backwoods_Sleuth

this bullshit again:

[Embedded content]

Is one of them Glorious October Revolution Tractor Factory?

172
The Major  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:33:10pm

re: #165 Big Beautiful Door

When it comes to money and collegiate sports, everybody tries their hardest to “Bury The Lede”-and as history has shown, that eventually turns up Snake-eyes when the dice of fate gets tossed…

173
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:34:40pm

re: #153 BeachDem

[Embedded content]

rRLnoTjiFVtgvphXE6ifxvG3ZQgqFdmnHkhrybubvatW74N1bOLmnMYI4Aj9e/sbXlsEu5xB8aWhGDw9e3K/3XHwX+qK/Hn4kGMI+IbvYzY=

174
gwangung  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:39:03pm

re: #168 HappyWarrior

The impression I’ve gotten of many of the Vietnamese- north and south interviewed on the documentary is these were ordinary men and women stuck in an extraordinary situation.

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

175
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:39:28pm

re: #174 gwangung

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

Thanks.

176
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:41:44pm

Wow! So cool he has that old picture.
Cheers Mr. Lear!

177
electrotek  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:42:09pm

Holy crap, I had no idea it was the same Peter Daou who was part of the New York house scene in the 90s. Obama himself was a househead and once paid homage to the late Frankie Knuckles upon his passing in March 31st 2014 (Chicago househeads always stick together):

178
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:43:13pm

re: #176 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

Wow! So cool he has that old picture.
Cheers Mr. Lear!

Not too many WWII vets still left. Love that he did this along with that other WWII vet.

179
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:45:45pm

Guang, that’s a fascinating read. I definitely agree with that about how Americans tell the story of Vietnam. In most Vietnam War movies like Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, etc, we don’t even really see them. So yes they do kind of become side characters to something that was ultimately more about them than it was us as Americans. One of my mom’s best friends is actually a Vietnamese immigrant. They’ve known each other since I was a small child and mom’s best friend’s father actually died in the war. I think they got here when the South fell but from what Mom tells me, she hasn’t been back since.

180
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:47:12pm

re: #177 electrotek

Peter and Yashar Ali have some type of Twitter beef and Yashar posted an old video of Peter’s (a particularly cheesy one where I think he was trying to go commercial) in a way that was not done to highlight his previous career or love of music. It was hella immature and folks were in the comments making fun of Peter. I was annoyed.

181
whitebeach  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:47:42pm

re: #158 Big Beautiful Door

There were ordinary people who worked with the US Army and the South Vietnamese government who were promised transport out then casually abandoned. Your statement is a rationalization of our shameful treatment of them.

The fall of Saigon took a long time to happen then happened very quickly. To the very last minute we were pulling people off the embassy roof and taking them to the airport. You may see that as “casually abandoned.” I don’t.

182
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:48:15pm

re: #168 HappyWarrior

The impression I’ve gotten of many of the Vietnamese- north and south interviewed on the documentary is these were ordinary men and women stuck in an extraordinary situation.

Almost everybody who gets stuck in extraordinary situations is.

183
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:48:46pm

re: #174 gwangung

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

Wait, you mean there were PEOPLE living in those jungles?!/////

184
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:49:03pm

re: #182 Blind Frog Belly White

Almost everybody who gets stuck in extraordinary situations is.

Certainly. Vietnam is such a complicated war IMO compared with WWII or even Korea.

185
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:50:45pm

re: #174 gwangung

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

I’d argue that this is exactly why we went into Vietnam, and exactly why we failed. It was all about us.

186
electrotek  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:51:20pm

re: #180 JordanRules

Peter and Yashar Ali have some type of Twitter beef and Yashar posted an old video of Peter’s (a particularly cheesy one where I think he was trying to go commercial) in a way that was not done to highlight his previous career or love of music. It was hella immature and folks were in the comments making fun of Peter. I was annoyed.

I must have missed it, now I have to look for it.

I loved Daou’s stuff and he worked with a lot of the juggernauts of NY house scene like David Morales and Masters at Work, so I was shocked to find out that they are the same person. His track he did with The Daou called Surrender Yourself is his most famous one, with the Ballroom mix done by Danny Tenaglia being one of the best.

187
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:52:09pm

re: #185 Blind Frog Belly White

I’d argue that this is exactly why we went into Vietnam, and exactly why we failed. It was all about us.

Yep. All about US containing communism. Not about the sovereignty and rights of the Vietnamese people. It would be foolish to think that racism didn’t impact our policies in Vietnam.

188
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:53:04pm

I like this about the whole NFL kneeling issue:

189
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:53:05pm

re: #181 whitebeach

The fall of Saigon took a long time to happen then happened very quickly. To the very last minute we were pulling people off the embassy roof and taking them to the airport. You may see that as “casually abandoned.” I don’t.

What about the people that couldn’t get into the embassy? We helped those we had to (because they were on the embassy grounds, or whatever) but left a lot of people behind. There was no plan. Pilots and those with connections took planes and helicopters out to aircraft carriers and we landed what we could and fished people out of the sea if they ditched their planes (being hard to land on a carrier without a tailhook-though the guy with his whole family on the Cessna-and mad landing skills-managed a landing on the Midway.)
The vast majority of the citizens of Saigon who had been doing business with the Americans and the government, because what were they supposed to do, were left behind.

190
Hecuba's daughter  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:53:12pm

re: #67 HappyWarrior

Luntz is largely responsible for the GOP being a mess but this is correct.

So did Luntz have a Paul comes to Damascus moment? Or is he stricken with some devastating disease that makes him want to clear his conscience? Oh wait — that would mean he has a conscience. Assumes facts not in evidence.

191
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:53:15pm

what the hell is this about? The Hill

Presidential son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner is registered as a female voter in New York, according to public records.

Prior to 2009, his New Jersey voter registration noted his gender as “unknown.”

193
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:54:43pm

re: #191 dangerman

what the hell is this about? The Hill

VOTER FRAUD. But please look away at our own shady behavior.

194
goddamnedfrank  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:54:50pm
195
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:54:51pm

re: #191 dangerman

what the hell is this about? The Hill

Apparently someone made a clerical error. I really think it’s getting more press than it deserves.

196
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:55:14pm

re: #187 HappyWarrior

Manifest destiny!!

197
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:56:11pm

re: #195 calochortus

Apparently someone made a clerical error. I really think it’s getting more press than it deserves.

Jesus, this Kushner guy can’t fill out a simple form without fucking it up, whether it’s his own gender, or dozens of meetings with high ranking foreign officials!

198
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:56:37pm

re: #174 gwangung

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

Though Burns did a good job of including Vietnamese from both sides of the war in his documentary. They had the same human stories of suffering and loss as the Americans.

199
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:57:24pm

re: #198 Big Beautiful Door

Though Burns did a good job of including Vietnamese from both sides of the war in his documentary. They had the same human stories of suffering and loss as the Americans.

Even more since they had civilian losses as well.

200
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:57:59pm

re: #199 HappyWarrior

Even more since they had civilian losses as well.

Boy, that’s an understatement!

201
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:59:27pm

re: #200 Blind Frog Belly White

Boy, that’s an understatement!

Yeah it is. The really messed up thing as the documentary gets is that we reported civilian dead as military dead.

202
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 2:59:46pm

And then the whole My Lai cover up.

203
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:00:40pm

I certainly do respect our military but at the same time I’m cautious because while most serve honorably, there are William Calleys out there.

204
scottslemmons  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:01:18pm

re: #195 calochortus

Apparently someone made a clerical error. I really think it’s getting more press than it deserves.

Of course, the Republicans have pointed to other accidents and clerical errors as evidence of voter fraud. Yes, a clerical error isn’t worth getting bent out of shape about — but the GOP hypocrisy on this issue is crystal clear here.

205
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:01:26pm

re: #181 whitebeach

The fall of Saigon took a long time to happen then happened very quickly. To the very last minute we were pulling people off the embassy roof and taking them to the airport. You may see that as “casually abandoned.” I don’t.

According to the Documentary, a point came where President ordered that no more Vietnamese would be evacuated, and the remaining Marines had to keep them in the dark for hours while waiting for their turn. And before that, the delusional US Ambassador blocked evacuation plans to avoid looking defeatist until plans to evacuate by boat and plane had to be abandoned and helicopter lift was the only option left.

206
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:02:22pm

re: #158 Big Beautiful Door

There were ordinary people who worked with the US Army and the South Vietnamese government who were promised transport out then casually abandoned. Your statement is a rationalization of our shameful treatment of them.

Well said. Furthermore, I’m sure the most powerful and corrupt people in the Saigon regime got out long before the final helicopter flights.

207
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:02:53pm

re: #185 Blind Frog Belly White

I’d argue that this is exactly why we went into Vietnam, and exactly why we failed. It was all about us.

Yep, had to prevent the dominoes from falling, and in the end we had to maintain our credibility.

208
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:03:03pm

re: #205 Big Beautiful Door

According to the Documentary, a point came where President ordered that no more Vietnamese would be evacuated, and the remaining Marines had to keep them in the dark for hours while waiting for their turn. And before that, the delusional US Ambassador blocked evacuation plans to avoid looking defeatist until plans to evacuate by boat and plane had to be abandoned and helicopter lift was the only option left.

Didn’t President Ford play a bigger role in later getting them refugee status? I recall that being a point of discussion when praising past Republican office holder behavior regarding refugees to current ones.

209
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:03:06pm

I knew it! King Faisal was actually Obi Wan Kenobi! They’re the same guy!

///////////////////////////////

210
Hecuba's daughter  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:03:10pm

re: #118 HappyWarrior

And yes I’m out of sympathy too. They keep on nominating abject monsters like Trump, Moore, and others. I want to be able to disagree with people civilly but how can I with someone like Moore?

You cannot discuss this civilly with them because they are incapable of reason. They have all drunk the Kool Aid. They believe whatever the plutocrats tell them and they are racist to the core.

211
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:03:22pm

re: #188 KGxvi

I like this about the whole NFL kneeling issue:

[Embedded content]

outstanding

same problem as a always. they spin, twist and dissemble into bullshit because they dont want you to put the actual true core, “original” issue in their face

cause that they have no answer for and cant deal with

212
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:04:12pm

re: #64 JordanRules

The really amazing thing is that the polling looks more favorable to protesters today (at least according to this poll).

Turns out those in favor of people getting fired for not standing for the anthem tend to be old (over 65, 57%), white (43%), and Republican (65%). Also, a sign that a lot of people who call themselves libertarians these days are just embarrassed conservatives: 38% of self-identified libertarians believe they should be fired for refusing to stand (also, from these numbers, I can conclude that 38% of libertarians don’t know what “libertarian” means).

213
Hecuba's daughter  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:04:21pm

re: #121 Blind Frog Belly White

They’re getting to be like cartoon villains.

Getting to be? They have been cartoon villains since the election of Obama.

214
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:05:06pm

re: #212 KGxvi

The really amazing thing is that the polling looks more favorable to protesters today (at least according to this poll).

Turns out those in favor of people getting fired for not standing for the anthem tend to be old (over 65, 57%), white (43%), and Republican (65%). Also, a sign that a lot of people who call themselves libertarians these days are just embarrassed conservatives: 38% of self-identified libertarians believe they should be fired for refusing to stand (also, from these numbers, I can conclude that 38% of libertarians don’t know what “libertarian” means).

Yeah I think so too. I think a lot of “libertarians”are actually paleo-conservatives.

215
calochortus  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:06:38pm

BBL

216
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:07:02pm

re: #208 HappyWarrior

Didn’t President Ford play a bigger role in later getting them refugee status? I recall that being a point of discussion when praising past Republican office holder behavior regarding refugees to current ones.

I don’t know about that. Good question.

217
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:07:15pm

re: #214 HappyWarrior

Yeah I think so too. I think a lot of “libertarians”are actually paleo-conservatives.

The ranks of the ‘libertarians’ always increase when the GOP is fucking things up.

218
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:07:28pm

re: #209 Blind Frog Belly White

[Embedded content]

I knew it! King Faisal was actually Obi Wan Kenobi! They’re the same guy!

[Embedded content]

///////////////////////////////

phew, saved me the trouble…..

219
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:08:14pm

re: #213 Hecuba’s daughter

Getting to be? They have been cartoon villains since the election of Obama.

Yeah, but the cartoons are less and less funny, and the animation quality is getting worse. Kind of like Roadrunner cartoons post Chuck Jones.

220
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:08:24pm

re: #216 Big Beautiful Door

I don’t know about that. Good question.

washingtonpost.com
Not exactly a great moment for Senators Byrd, McGovern, and Biden.

221
Hecuba's daughter  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:08:39pm

re: #150 EPR-radar

I always knew GOP ‘tax reform’ would be unmitigated evil, but even I’m surprised by the chutzpah of proposing to completely eliminate the estate tax.

We have a real problem in this country of a plutocracy that is increasingly based on massive inherited wealth, and the estate tax is the only bit of public policy we have that even symbolically opposes this trend.

Why are you surprised? They tried this before. If Obama had not won in 2008, they would have succeeded. They want a plutocracy.

222
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:10:41pm

I just cannot imagine what this whole thing is going to look like when it’s all unraveled.

223
goddamnedfrank  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:10:51pm

re: #179 HappyWarrior

Guang, that’s a fascinating read. I definitely agree with that about how Americans tell the story of Vietnam. In most Vietnam War movies like Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, etc, we don’t even really see them. So yes they do kind of become side characters to something that was ultimately more about them than it was us as Americans. One of my mom’s best friends is actually a Vietnamese immigrant. They’ve known each other since I was a small child and mom’s best friend’s father actually died in the war. I think they got here when the South fell but from what Mom tells me, she hasn’t been back since.

I feel like the Burn documentary is getting better at this as it goes along even though he is approaching it as primarily an America story with fewer Vietnamese perspectives even though it was their country. I would’ve liked more of the personal NV stories like episode eight’s female NVA truck driver and her engineer fiancé both working in separate positions of the Ho Chi Min trail.

Still the fact that Vietnamese, especially then North Vietnamese fighter perspectives are being shown at all let alone with equal personal legitimacy is somewhat remarkable. I can’t imagine this approach in decades past. What’s really fucked up is that despite the introspection we seem to have regarding the Vietnam War itself, it seems we’ve learned nothing except to do the exact same shit elsewhere.

224
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:11:36pm

Tax brackets have not now nor ever been the impediment that the GOP continually makes them out to be. A progressive tax code makes sense, and every action the GOP is taking is about making it less progressive and shifting burdens from the rich to everyone else.

The fact that everyone else can’t generate the revenue lost by not taxing the rich doesn’t get past the GOP. That’s a feature, not a bug. The feature is designed to create debt so as to give the GOP the talking point that services have to be cut to balance the budget and/or reduce debt (choose your talking point of the day).

Of course, there’s no way the debt can be reduced by tax cuts or budget cuts. It just can’t happen that way.

The way that the US eliminated its debt during the middle 20th century was to impose high tax rates on high income earners. 90% or more. We had strong economic growth when tax rates were over 90%. We had them when they were 70% or more.

Lowering the tax rates from what are historically low levels will not create new economic growth. It simply expands the wealth for the rich and screws everyone else because they will never see the benefits.

All the deductions/credits the GOP are throwing around will hurt the middle class far more than help. Again, this is a feature, not a bug.

225
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:11:53pm

re: #210 Hecuba’s daughter

You cannot discuss this civilly with them because they are incapable of reason. They have all drunk the Kool Aid. They believe whatever the plutocrats tell them and they are racist to the core.

I honestly don’t know how we deal with this. All the plutocrats need for final victory is to have a larger rate of GOP cult programming than deprogramming, which they appear to be doing. This disaster will come decades sooner than it otherwise would from the raw numbers if the media continues with its both-siderist cover-up of Republican treachery and malfeasance.

226
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:14:12pm

re: #223 goddamnedfrank

I feel like the Burn documentary is getting better at this as it goes along even though he is approaching it as primarily an America story with fewer Vietnamese perspectives even though it was their country. I would’ve liked more of the personal NV stories like episode eight’s female NVA truck driver and her engineer fiancé both working in separate positions of the Ho Chi Min trail.

Still the fact that Vietnamese, especially then North Vietnamese fighter perspectives are being shown at all let alone with equal personal legitimacy is somewhat remarkable. I can’t imagine this approach in decades past. What’s really fucked up is that despite the introspection we seem to have regarding the Vietnam War itself, it seems we’ve learned nothing except to do the exact same shit elsewhere.

Right. I’d like more NV stories too but you’re right. That their story is being told at all is a great improvement from what we’ve seen in the past. I do think Burns docu is American centric for a reason given the target audience.

227
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:14:35pm

re: #222 JordanRules

I just cannot imagine what this whole thing is going to look like when it’s all unraveled.

[Embedded content]

This whole thing is insane.

228
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:17:29pm

Mrs. FBW and I agreed that we didn’t want to watch the Vietnam documentary. It was in our faces the whole time we were growing up. No desire to revisit the most unpleasant part of our childhoods.

229
The Ghost of a Flea  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:18:19pm

re: #187 HappyWarrior

Yep. All about US containing communism. Not about the sovereignty and rights of the Vietnamese people. It would be foolish to think that racism didn’t impact our policies in Vietnam.

Asian/PI racism gets downplayed in our history because it doesn’t have one central vein, like slavery, but it’s ubiquitous once you start looking around. I mean, how often does anyone discuss the history of Hawaii as colonization? How about how we got into the Philippines? These are basic “X happened in year Y” aspects of US history, yet they’re given minimal recognition.

(As is the history of what happened to all the Hispanics that were forced to migrate from Texas and the West)

Vietnam stings especially because the direct parallel to US history—fighting to be free of a colonial power—to an almost poetic degree. Ho Chi Minh trying to appeal to Wilson using Wilson’s own rhetoric only to be rebuffed. It’s like something from an Icelandic saga.

This is why I assert that there’s a real danger to creating a happy “narrative” of history. You are defined by what you conceal because there are always the pressures of will it remained buried and what else will have to be buried to maintain the illusion . Man, now I sound like Edgar Allen Poe trying to write political commentary.

230
Teukka  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:19:14pm

re: #222 JordanRules

I just cannot imagine what this whole thing is going to look like when it’s all unraveled.

[Embedded content]

re: #227 HappyWarrior

This whole thing is insane.

Or what consequences it will have for Vlad & the Kremlin crew, or any people who fell for their propaganda.

*smh*

231
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:19:54pm

re: #226 HappyWarrior

Right. I’d like more NV stories too but you’re right. That their story is being told at all is a great improvement from what we’ve seen in the past. I do think Burns docu is American centric for a reason given the target audience.

Given the fact that this was filmed for an American audience, I think Burns did a great job of including Vietnamese voices. The enormity of the tragedy is staggering. Millions of Vietnamese died, mostly unnecessary, as we knew almost from the start of our direct involvement that we almost certainly could not win the war. We should’ve backed Ho Chi Min against the French in the 1940’s as an anti-colonial liberator of his country, but we were too blinded with anti-communist fervor.

232
HappyWarrior  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:20:38pm

re: #231 Big Beautiful Door

Given the fact that this was filmed for an American audience, I think Burns did a great job of including Vietnamese voices. The enormity of the tragedy is staggering. Millions of Vietnamese died, mostly unnecessary, as we knew almost from the start of our direct involvement that we almost certainly could not win the war. We should’ve backed Ho Chi Min against the French in the 1940’s as an anti-colonial liberator of his country, but we were too blinded with anti-communist fervor.

Agreed 100%.

233
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:21:07pm

re: #224 lawhawk

Tax brackets have not now nor ever been the impediment that the GOP continually makes them out to be. A progressive tax code makes sense, and every action the GOP is taking is about making it less progressive and shifting burdens from the rich to everyone else.

The fact that everyone else can’t generate the revenue lost by not taxing the rich doesn’t get past the GOP. That’s a feature, not a bug. The feature is designed to create debt so as to give the GOP the talking point that services have to be cut to balance the budget and/or reduce debt (choose your talking point of the day).

Of course, there’s no way the debt can be reduced by tax cuts or budget cuts. It just can’t happen that way.

The way that the US eliminated its debt during the middle 20th century was to impose high tax rates on high income earners. 90% or more. We had strong economic growth when tax rates were over 90%. We had them when they were 70% or more.

Lowering the tax rates from what are historically low levels will not create new economic growth. It simply expands the wealth for the rich and screws everyone else because they will never see the benefits.

All the deductions/credits the GOP are throwing around will hurt the middle class far more than help. Again, this is a feature, not a bug.

Eliminating the debt in the mid-20th century, and the economic boom that we had at the time, was helped in large part by the fact that Europe, Northern Africa, China, and Japan suffered major damage to their infrastructure as well as significant loss of population. The US basically had an economic boom because we were the only major player in the Second World War that didn’t have battlefields within our borders.

That said, the tax rates at the time forced businesses to think long term rather than just to the next quarterly projection and report. The post-80s Wall Street mentality of “Greed is good” (always with the misquote) spread to MBA programs that became so popular in the 90s, which now permeates so much of our lives. So lower tax rates and the short term thinking of “bigger dividends means a bigger bonus, plus I’ve got stock options” fucked up the economy in ways we probably don’t yet fully understand.

234
ObserverArt  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:21:39pm

re: #87 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Again, we’ve got Cillizza’s attempt to claim Trump’s got a strategy for what he’s doing. There’s no strategy. There’s no plan. It’s all reactionary mumbo jumbo and he has no idea what he’s doing on anything.

Cillizza has no idea what he is doing either, so this works for him.

What I wonder is why did CNN hire the biggest bozo in political hacks?

235
stpaulbear  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:21:44pm

re: #205 Big Beautiful Door

According to the Documentary, a point came where President ordered that no more Vietnamese would be evacuated, and the remaining Marines had to keep them in the dark for hours while waiting for their turn. And before that, the delusional US Ambassador blocked evacuation plans to avoid looking defeatist until plans to evacuate by boat and plane had to be abandoned and helicopter lift was the only option left.

I bought Ken Burn’s Vietnam on Amazon this week. One of the DVD’s that Amazon was pairing it with is a 4-hr PBS documentary called Last Days in Vietnam. The reviews were pretty favorable.

Someone in the comments recommends a film (DVD) called Journey From the Fall that tells the story from the South Vietnamese point of view.

236
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:22:32pm

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

Asian/PI racism gets downplayed in our history because it doesn’t have one central vein, like slavery, but it’s ubiquitous once you start looking around. I mean, how often does anyone discuss the history of Hawaii as colonization? How about how we got into the Philippines? These are basic “X happened in year Y aspects of US history, yet they’re given minimal recognition.

(As is the history of what happened to all the Hispanics that were forced to migrate from Texas and the West)

Vietnam stings especially because the direct parallel to US history—fighting to be free of a colonial power—to an almost poetic degree. Ho Chi Minh trying to appeal to Wilson using Wilson’s own rhetoric only to be rebuffed. It’s like something from an Icelandic saga.

This is why I assert that there’s a real danger to creating a happy “narrative” of history. You are defined by what you conceal because there are always the pressures of will it remained buried and what else will have to be buried to maintain the illusion . Man, now I sound like Edgar Allen Poe trying to write political commentary.

Mindless US anti-communism stopped the US from dealing reasonably with Ho Chi Minh. Ending the colonial empires was the trend after WWII, and it was stupid of the US to step into France’s position the way we did.

237
Hecuba's daughter  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:23:17pm

re: #224 lawhawk

….
The fact that everyone else can’t generate the revenue lost by not taxing the rich doesn’t get past the GOP. That’s a feature, not a bug. The feature is designed to create debt so as to give the GOP the talking point that services have to be cut to balance the budget and/or reduce debt (choose your talking point of the day).

Of course, there’s no way the debt can be reduced by tax cuts or budget cuts. It just can’t happen that way.

……
Lowering the tax rates from what are historically low levels will not create new economic growth. It simply expands the wealth for the rich and screws everyone else because they will never see the benefits.

All the deductions/credits the GOP are throwing around will hurt the middle class far more than help. Again, this is a feature, not a bug.

I’m so old I remember what happened in 1993 when Clinton pressured Democrats to support his tax increases on the wealthy. The Republicans took control of the House and Senate by promoting the lies that (1) middle income taxpayers were affected and (2) the tax increases would tank the economy. Of course, neither happened and we were on our way to eliminating the debt until SCOTUS, with the help of Ralph Nader, elected Bush as President.

I am so infuriated with this tax proposal although I am actually hit slightly by the AMT but that’s ok, it keeps those who are truly rich from gaming the system. 30 years ago, an acquaintance boasted of paying 5% on a 6 figure income (back when 6 figures was really a lot of money) because of the deductions that he and his wife managed.

We need to fight this proposal with the same intensity as we are fighting the continuing battle to save the ACA. Does this legislation need 60 votes to pass the Senate?

238
ObserverArt  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:24:35pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Grover would murder his wife and kids for a tax cut.

By drowning them in a bathtub.

239
BeachDem  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:25:05pm

re: #179 HappyWarrior

Guang, that’s a fascinating read. I definitely agree with that about how Americans tell the story of Vietnam. In most Vietnam War movies like Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, etc, we don’t even really see them. So yes they do kind of become side characters to something that was ultimately more about them than it was us as Americans. One of my mom’s best friends is actually a Vietnamese immigrant. They’ve known each other since I was a small child and mom’s best friend’s father actually died in the war. I think they got here when the South fell but from what Mom tells me, she hasn’t been back since.

One of the best books I’ve read about the perspective of Vietnamese people who lived through it—When Heaven and Earth Changed Places by Le Ly Hayslip.

amazon.com

Oliver Stone made a movie—part of his Vietnam trilogy—Heaven and Earth. I didn’t see it, so not sure how true it was to the book.

240
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:25:39pm

re: #237 Hecuba’s daughter

I’m so old I remember what happened in 1993 when Clinton pressured Democrats to support his tax increases on the wealthy. The Republicans took control of the House and Senate by promoting the lies that (1) middle income taxpayers were affected and (2) the tax increases would tank the economy. Of course, neither happened and we were on our way to eliminating the debt until SCOTUS, with the help of Ralph Nader, elected Bush as President.

I am so infuriated with this tax proposal although I am actually hit slightly by the AMT but that’s ok, it keeps those who are truly rich from gaming the system. 30 years ago, an acquaintance boasted of paying 5% on a 6 figure income (back when 6 figures was really a lot of money) because of the deductions that he and his wife managed.

We need to fight this proposal with the same intensity as we are fighting the continuing battle to save the ACA. Does this legislation need 60 votes to pass the Senate?

The GOP plans to pass it through reconciliation, so only 50 votes plus Pence are needed in the Senate.

241
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:26:07pm

re: #224 lawhawk

Tax brackets have not now nor ever been the impediment that the GOP continually makes them out to be….

spot on, as we have visited before

and i would add even with the top bracket being 90-94% the marginal tax rate was substantially lower and interestingly hasnt moved much over time

242
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:27:06pm
243
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:27:25pm

re: #240 Big Beautiful Door

The GOP plans to pass it through reconciliation, so only 50 votes plus Pence are needed in the Senate.

An additional wrinkle, as I understand it, is that under reconciliation they will need to show (or pretend) it is neutral vs. the deficit to make the cuts permanent. If they can’t, the cuts will have to expire in 10 years.

244
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:27:42pm

re: #236 EPR-radar

Mindless US anti-communism stopped the US from dealing reasonably with Ho Chi Minh. Ending the colonial empires was the trend after WWII, and it was stupid of the US to step into France’s position the way we did.

We thought we were fighting the Korean war. NVN was fighting the Revolutionary War.

245
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:28:07pm

re: #241 dangerman

spot on, as we have visited before

and i would add even with the top bracket being 90-94% the marginal tax rate was substantially lower and interestingly hasnt moved much over time

[Embedded content]

sorry - that from the Joint Economic Committee Republicans 11/14/12

246
ObserverArt  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:29:02pm

re: #104 HappyWarrior

Because Obama was actually a leader. Trump’s a big talking, no action asshole.

Trump’s a big asshole!

Covers it all.

247
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:31:04pm

re: #238 ObserverArt

By drowning them in a bathtub.

“Reports today that antitax advocate Grover Norquist was found dead today. Apparently, the Government drowned him in a bathtub.”

248
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:31:32pm

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

This is why I assert that there’s a real danger to creating a happy “narrative” of history. You are defined by what you conceal because there are always the pressures of will it remained buried and what else will have to be buried to maintain the illusion . Man, now I sound like Edgar Allen Poe trying to write political commentary.

It’s been said a hundred different ways, and been attributed to a hundred thousand figures of note, but, as they say, “history is the story as told by the victors.” Or, “one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.” The truth is, history is always a narrative, always has been. The human brain, for whatever reason, is wired for stories. We try to make sense out of chaos and in doing so have convinced ourselves that the stories we pass down are real and that they are accurate accounts of what happened. In truth, they are, at best, only part of the story. The rest of the story is lost.

Throw in our tribal nature and the idea that we can identify with players in a story who are “from our tribe” and who we can paint as heroes, and the narratives become even more obvious.

249
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:31:46pm

re: #243 EPR-radar

An additional wrinkle, asI understand it, is that under reconciliation they will need to show (or pretend) it is neutral vs. the deficit to make the cuts permanent. If they can’t, the cuts will have to expire in 10 years.

Wait - don’t they only have till Friday?

250
JordanRules  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:33:06pm

Brief update from possible GOP 2020 candidate.

This is disturbing though.

251
The Vicious Babushka  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:33:47pm

Why is she even still around?

252
electrotek  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:34:14pm

re: #251 The Vicious Babushka

Why is she even still around?

[Embedded content]

Wish Twitter would ban her by now.

253
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:34:45pm

re: #250 JordanRules

How the fuck can the White House prohibit members of Congress from visiting US territories?

254
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:35:06pm

re: #243 EPR-radar

An additional wrinkle, asI understand it, is that under reconciliation they will need to show (or pretend) it is neutral vs. the deficit to make the cuts permanent. If they can’t, the cuts will have to expire in 10 years.

They have talked about extending the period to 20 or even 30 years to make the cuts more or less permanent.

255
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:36:25pm

re: #249 Blind Frog Belly White

Wait - don’t they only have till Friday?

Nope. The 9/30 deadline was for healthcare reconciliation. Tax reconciliation is a different deadline, and the GOP might even get bold enough to try to do both taxes and healthcare using the tax reconciliation deadline.

256
Big Beautiful Door  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:37:26pm

re: #255 EPR-radar

Nope. The 9/30 deadline was for healthcare reconciliation. Tax reconciliation is a different deadline, and the GOP might even get bold enough to try to do both taxes and healthcare using the tax reconciliation deadline.

Unlikely, as that has a good chance of sinking both.

257
EPR-radar  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:37:42pm

re: #254 Big Beautiful Door

They have talked about extending the period to 20 or even 30 years to make the cuts more or less permanent.

Scumbags. I really feel the pain of being an atheist at times like this, because I would very much like to deeply, truly, sincerely believe that these evil GOP crap stains will spend eternity hip-deep in molten lead.

258
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:37:51pm

re: #237 Hecuba’s daughter

We need to fight this proposal with the same intensity as we are fighting the continuing battle to save the ACA. Does this legislation need 60 votes to pass the Senate?

vigilance of course. i am confident it doesnt really have a chance (yes i know, i know)

there will be the inevitable political mistakes - what trump wants, what congress wants

it’s a much heavier lift than healthcare — everyone has a dog in this fight - every senator, every congressman - every business, every individual. that means every lobby out there. every industry, foodstuff, age, region. every thing.

just look at what’s happening with the jones act alone today as a micro example. and that’s about the imminent peril of 3m people. americans

259
retired cynic  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:39:18pm

re: #228 Blind Frog Belly White

Mrs. FBW and I agreed that we didn’t want to watch the Vietnam documentary. It was in our faces the whole time we were growing up. No desire to revisit the most unpleasant part of our childhoods.

I feel the same, but also guilt. I need to watch it at some point, because I know there is more to the story than I know.

260
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:43:15pm

re: #174 gwangung

This is a side jaunt, but you might be interested in this article:

americantheatre.org

There is indeed a tendency to make the Vietnamese a side character in any story (and that includes documentaries like Burns’) about Vietnam.

A lot of people seem to want the South Vietnamese in particular erased from history. I met an alleged expert on the war, a prissy doctoral student from New Mexico, who did not know what “Republic of Vietnam” meant. He thought the South Vietnamese, of whom he had heard a little, were locals we hired to help out our forces, and that the communists were just “Vietnam.”
A speech professor at North Texas would tell his students that “the US invaded Vietnam to overthrow its communist government and wound up being driven out.”
In fact, the Republic of Vietnam, South Vietnam, was the center of the war, geographically as well as politically.
Conversely, I have always thought that South Vietnam should have been able to defend itself without American troops. It was both more populous and wealthier than the north. That it could not is the central fact of the war, the elephant in the living room that one administration and military command after another chose to ignore.
Sometimes the RVN leadership seemed to be on the right track, as when the flamboyant Nguyen Cao Ky was prime minister of the junta in 1965-67.
Ky was a controversial figure. His style and sometimes unfortunate rhetoric did not sit well with American media, or other establishment figures like Ambassador Ellsworth Bunker. He was also a Buddhist and a native of Tonkin (ie the north, Hanoi specifically) and was therefore opposed by the still-powerful Catholic factions within the RVN establishment and military.
Progress was slow, not helped by General Westmoreland’s bungling strategy, and Ky was finally forced to cut a deal with this opponents. He agreed to serve as rival Nguyen Van Thieu’s vice president after the farcical 1967 elections. In return, Ky would make military decisions while Thieu would run the civil administration. He was soon double crossed and sidelined, while Thieu went on an orgy of cronyism and graft that continued right up to the collapse in 1975.
Several real disasters, like the incursion into Laos in 1971, and the rout at Quang Tri in 1972, were directly attributable to incompetent cronies Thieu had placed in prestigious (and therefore lucrative) commands. Many years later, Ky was the first former official of the Saigon government to return to Vietnam and take an active role in the new regime. He died in 2011 in Malaysia where he had gone for medical treatment.

I highly recommend his books, How We Lost the Vietnam War and Buddha’s Child: My Fight to Save Vietnam. Both of these are self serving, to be sure, and contain alleged inaccuracies but they do illuminate some almost forgotten but vitally important aspects of the war.
Among other things, Ky alleges that the U.S. supported whichever group was in power, no matter how corrupt, partly because many American officials were racist and just did not think Vietnamese could do any better.
This rings true to me. American racism in Vietnam was another elephant in the living room that I will have to address some time, but it is hard for me to write about the war at all and I hope you will forgive me if I put that one off to another time.

261
KGxvi  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:43:38pm

re: #258 dangerman

vigilance of course. i am confident it doesnt really have a chance (yes i know, i know)

there will be the inevitable political mistakes - what trump wants, what congress wants

it’s a much heavier lift than healthcare — everyone has a dog in this fight - every senator, every congressman - every business, every individual. that means every lobby out there. every industry, foodstuff, age, region. every thing.

just look at what’s happening with the jones act alone today as a micro example. and that’s about the imminent peril of 3m people. americans

The elimination of the deduction of state income taxes should be more than enough to box in Republicans in a lot of blue states. How does a California or New York Republican justify raising taxes on their constituents? Or as the smart way of framing it from a campaign standpoint: they want to literally tax your taxes! Republicans always cry about double taxation.

262
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:46:08pm

re: #253 KGxvi

Limiting access on military planes. The claim will be that that space is needed for relief efforts, but the reality is that Trump doesn’t want other politicians to see the scope of Trump’s failure and doesn’t want anyone stealing his thunder by being in PR to show what needs to be done.

Trump wont lift the Jones Act.

Trump has been slower to act on PR than when the US responded to the Japan quake/tsunami. We had more ships and personnel moving into theater hours after the Japan quake than Trump’s moved in to the USVI/PR in a week.

263
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:47:47pm

re: #203 HappyWarrior

I certainly do respect our military but at the same time I’m cautious because while most serve honorably, there are William Calleys out there.

And then there were all the regular guys who got drafted and went straight from prom/graduation to basic training and off to VietNam (and in my high school graduating class we didn’t have the vote for 18 year olds yet).

I’ve got some small bundles of letters from VietNam. I never met any of the guys, they just wanted letters from home (oh, and the occasional packs of Kool-Aid or the like to make the water taste good) and homemade cookies and just about anything that could be fit in a box to remind them that people at home remembered them.

I’ve got a small memoir written (Letters to Home) that includes the letters and my reactions to everything including Kent State (MrBWS’s sister was a freshman there and was on campus the day).

Instructions are to publish after my death, mostly because I don’t want to deal with the raging assholes who will most certainly show their asses in responding.

264
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:48:43pm

re: #260 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

Among other things, Ky alleges that the U.S. supported whichever group was in power, no matter how corrupt, partly because many American officials were racist and just did not think Vietnamese could do any better.

This is of a piece with how we acted in Latin America and pretty much everywhere else. We talked about a commitment to democracy and ended up supporting corrupt, often dictatorial governments, based on the ‘Our Bastards’ argument.

265
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:50:12pm

re: #261 KGxvi

The elimination of the deduction of state income taxes should be more than enough to box in Republicans in a lot of blue states. How does a California or New York Republican justify raising taxes on their constituents? Or as the smart way of framing it from a campaign standpoint: they want to literally tax your taxes! Republicans always cry about double taxation.

and that’s one single, relatively simple example. multiply it x-fold

this may or may not be OT. sometimes i just like to tell stories.

i was an active dive instructor and cpa at the same time. cpa prof liability insurance cost about 10x for the same coverage as the instructor.

the joke was you can kill people but dont mess with their money

the aca fight, kicking off 20-32 million, and now the tax fight - seems like a parallel to me

they nearly got away with the first. the second involves people’s money, so…

anyway i got to tell a story

266
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:51:12pm

re: #251 The Vicious Babushka

Why is she even still around?

[Embedded content]

Paychecks from Putin or narcissism.

267
Blind Frog Belly White  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:51:26pm

The other aspect of Vietnam, and I’m sure the documentary will cover this, is the mythology that grew up on the Right about it. You know, “They wouldn’t let us win!” I’ve challenged several people who said that to explain what ‘winning’ would have been, and how we would have accomplished it. They can’t answer.

268
Nyet  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:51:45pm

re: #263 Backwoods_Sleuth

Thanks for sharing, BWS.

269
Nyet  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:52:27pm

re: #266 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

How about both? /

270
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:53:43pm

re: #209 Blind Frog Belly White

[Embedded content]

I knew it! King Faisal was actually Obi Wan Kenobi! They’re the same guy!

[Embedded content]

///////////////////////////////

it was The Orb….

271
dangerman  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:53:48pm

re: #262 lawhawk

Limiting access on military planes. The claim will be that that space is needed for relief efforts, but the reality is that Trump doesn’t want other politicians to see the scope of Trump’s failure and doesn’t want anyone stealing his thunder by being in PR to show what needs to be done.

need i overstate the obvious, keeping “legislators” out wont keep the stories in

272
Skip Intro  Sep 27, 2017 • 3:58:54pm

re: #251 The Vicious Babushka

Why is she even still around?

[Embedded content]

She’s still working for Russia, I see.

273
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:02:44pm

re: #242 JordanRules

274
Nyet  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:04:07pm
275
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:06:28pm

re: #268 Nyet

Thanks for sharing, BWS.

It was a difficult time for everyone for a lot of different reasons.
For me, it was an actual end of innocence beginning with the civil rights protests. Things weren’t all that great in America the supposed “land of brave and home of the free”.
The memoir also includes The Weatherman Underground (yes, I knew them); Jerry Rubin (yes, I knew him); a variety of underground newspapers; and a bunch of the other protest/resistance efforts of the time.

276
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:07:05pm
277
whitebeach  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:08:25pm

re: #179 HappyWarrior

Guang, that’s a fascinating read. I definitely agree with that about how Americans tell the story of Vietnam. In most Vietnam War movies like Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, etc, we don’t even really see them. So yes they do kind of become side characters to something that was ultimately more about them than it was us as Americans.

It’s true. In most Vietnam War movies, the enemy are portrayed more or less as the Japanese are portrayed in virtually every WWII movie: as devious, suicidal zealots with no regard for human life. (In truly idiotic movies like The Green Berets, the VC are little more than a copy of the African forces in the laughable Zulu, charging madly and repeatedly into massed firepower.) Even our ARVN allies are often depicted in essentially racist terms, usually as Oriental versions of Stepinfetchit, who will run from battle and rob you while they’re running. Sometimes there’s a sympathetic local character, who usually ends up dead. And of course there’s sometimes a beautiful young Saigonese woman who speaks wonderful English and becomes an American soldier’s love interest, until of course it turns out that her brother is a VC cadre or some such shit.

But then, really good war movies are few and far between no matter what the war.

278
Nyet  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:08:49pm

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

I hope I don’t get to read your memoir. :)

279
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:11:00pm

All I can say for sure right now is that the vast majority of the guys in Vietnam were exactly like the people I grew up with, went to school with, dated, goofed off with, occasionally got in trouble with (because that’s what we did in rural Ohio for shits and giggles).

They weren’t war criminals.
They weren’t Fortunate Sons.

I just tried to do what little I could to make them feel not abandoned.

280
Stanley Sea  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:13:10pm

re: #279 Backwoods_Sleuth

All I can say for sure right now is that the vast majority of the guys in Vietnam were exactly like the people I grew up with, went to school with, dated, goofed off with, occasionally got in trouble with (because that’s what we did in rural Ohio for shits and giggles).

They weren’t war criminals.
They weren’t Fortunate Sons.

I just tried to do what little I could to make them feel not abandoned.

It is the saddest thing ever.

The draft for that stupid war was criminal & a lesson.

One thing I think I misunderstood - if your birthday gave you a high #, you were going? Somehow I thought it was the low #’s going.

Minor, I know.

281
wrenchwench  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:13:21pm
282
Ace Rothstein  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:17:25pm

re: #267 Blind Frog Belly White

Because they don’t like the real answer.

283
lawhawk  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:19:05pm

re: #274 Nyet

It’s getting tiresome hearing how LM has predicted this or that. For starters, she’s absolutely clueless how the justice system works, or even who does what in the criminal justice system.

It doesn’t take much to opine that Manafort or Flynn will get indicted. Or cut a deal. Those are highly likely to any reasonable observer based on the facts. They’re eyes deep into this and the charges are likely to be lengthy.

Same as for Kushner and his criminal violations in filing the SF86.

Sessions too.

Junior as well.

It doesn’t take much to understand that Mueller’s got a dream team of prosecutors and experts sifting through all Trump actions and those of his family and advisers, including before/during/after the campaign.

That means that Junior is in jeopardy. That means Trump himself is in jeopardy.

I don’t have a timeframe for when any of those indictments get handed down, or if the evidence is simply presented to Congress next year or what have you because Mueller will finish when he’s ready to finish.

It’s his timeframe, not Mensch’s or Taylors, or anyone else parroting their CT nonsense.

When we’re talking about the law, I’ll take Preet Bharara’s informed opinions over the hack Mensch.

284
Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:26:39pm

re: #280 Stanley Sea

It is the saddest thing ever.

The draft for that stupid war was criminal & a lesson.

One thing I think I misunderstood - if your birthday gave you a high #, you were going? Somehow I thought it was the low #’s going.

Minor, I know.

My number was 358, so if I was a guy, odds were I wouldn’t go. It was the lower #s that went.

Fun fact: I actually got a draft notice because the powers that be typo’d my name as the male version.

285
Bubblehead II  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:35:51pm

re: #253 KGxvi

How the fuck can the White House prohibit members of Congress from visiting US territories?

He can’t. Lawhawk and I have been debating this over on twitter. All they need to do is get clearance from the Puerto Rician (siq) Governor to fly in. Yes they would have to pay for a private charter flight in and out. But tRump can’t keep them from going if they can find a way to get there that doesn’t require the use of Government/Military aircraft

286
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Sep 27, 2017 • 4:44:42pm

re: #277 whitebeach

It’s true. In most Vietnam War movies, the enemy are portrayed more or less as the Japanese are portrayed in virtually every WWII movie: as devious, suicidal zealots with no regard for human life. (In truly idiotic movies like The Green Berets, the VC are little more than a copy of the African forces in the laughable Zulu, charging madly and repeatedly into massed firepower.) Even our ARVN allies are often depicted in essentially racist terms, usually as Oriental versions of Stepinfetchit, who will run from battle and rob you while they’re running. Sometimes there’s a sympathetic local character, who usually ends up dead. And of course there’s sometimes a beautiful young Saigonese woman who speaks wonderful English and becomes an American soldier’s love interest, until of course it turns out that her brother is a VC cadre or some such shit.

But then, really good war movies are few and far between no matter what the war.

I was about to mention the brutish, swaying mass of VC who stumbled toward the SF camp wire in the climactic battle scene. The audience was left wondering why the friendlies could not just mow them down, or how they had gotten such a horde into the area in the first place: The effect may not have been what Wayne and company intended.

287
7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)  Sep 27, 2017 • 5:08:03pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Luther Strange is yuge. Trump is 6’ 2”.

Well, I used to be 5’10” and now I am 5’9, and I am 70. I bet he is no longer 6’2” if he ever was.

288
CleverToad  Sep 27, 2017 • 8:10:49pm

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

It was a difficult time for everyone for a lot of different reasons.
For me, it was an actual end of innocence beginning with the civil rights protests. Things weren’t all that great in America the supposed “land of brave and home of the free”.
The memoir also includes The Weatherman Underground (yes, I knew them); Jerry Rubin (yes, I knew him); a variety of underground newspapers; and a bunch of the other protest/resistance efforts of the time.

re: #278 Nyet

I hope I don’t get to read your memoir. :)

I would like to read your memoir, BWS. Preferably NOT with you dead already. (Private printing/ebook version for the Lizards…? If we promise cross our hearts not to show it to assholes…?)


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