He Was One of a Kind - Tom Petty Dies at 66

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On an already sad day, we have some more bad news: Tom Petty, Rock Iconoclast Who Led the Heartbreakers, Dead at 66.

Another of my heroes is gone. I saw him play at the very beginning of his career, at the Troubadour in Los Angeles, and I knew right away he was going to be huge. His music was unique; simple but deep and timeless. He’ll be greatly missed.

YouTube

From the “America: A Tribute to Heroes” telethon, which aired live on 35 broadcast and cable networks on Friday, September 21, 2001. The original version of this song can be found on Petty’s 1989 solo album, ‘Full Moon Fever.”

One of Howie Epstein’s final appearances with the band.

UPDATE at 10/2/17 2:00:21 pm by Charles Johnson

There are now conflicting reports going around; Tom may not have died, but his condition is clearly very critical.

UPDATE at 10/2/17 9:10:48 pm by Charles Johnson

Jump to bottom

285 comments

1
sizzzzlerz  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:32:13pm

It’s hard to mourn the death of a celebrity given yesterday’s tragic events but Petty’s long career contributed a large portion of the soundtrack of my teenage and college years. Yet another icon of my youth has been taken away.

RIP, Tom. Sorry your passing occurs at such an awful time.

2
Scottish Dragon  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:36:52pm
3
Amory Blaine  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:37:39pm

Some of us need a kitty pic.

4
Ace Rothstein  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:39:58pm

Saw him twice in The Woodlands. Both shows were sold out and we all had a great time. Happy trails, Tom.

5
Kragar  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:40:31pm
6
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:41:36pm

So when it comes to the “price of freedom,” wingnuts are happy to pay it in dead bodies, but draw the line at kneeling black men.

7
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:41:42pm

re: #5 Kragar

Can’t believe crazy Pat is still alive.

8
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:42:07pm

re: #7 Sir John Barron

Can’t believe crazy Pat is still alive.

Hate is a hell of a preservative.

9
lawhawk  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:42:55pm

I know I posted the earlier report from TMZ that he had been taken to hospital in cardiac arrest, but knowing Petty is gone is tough. So many of us rely on music and the arts to get through tough times (or use the arts as an outlet to express those tough times), and Petty was one of a kind.

He will be missed.

10
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:43:48pm

So the Las Vegas shooting got me researching resources for converting AR’s & AK’s to full auto because I thought it would be pretty difficult, but it turns out getting jigs to do the receiver work is frighteningly straightforward.

What’s really terrifying though is that one of the first google hits was this guy, who has the following info at the bottom of all his product pages:

Further critical discovery topics for you and your families: Revelation 12 occurs on Sept 23, 2017, Feast of Trumpets, Rapture, Jubilee years, Blood moon Tetrad, solar eclipses

An addendum for those who understand:

I was a pre-trib person. I am very disappointed to say that “window” has now closed. Therefore the next 7 years are only going to get increasingly difficult. It is now your responsibility to do what is necessary to protect your loved ones as we move forward.

I was faithfully hoping I would get to miss all of this.

This fucking country, man.

11
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:44:42pm

re: #5 Kragar

Yeah, Pat, after you and your gang spent eight years saying President Obama was a foreigner, a Muslim, that he was destroying America, that he was going to take all your guns and Bibles, lying every which way about a good man and his family, you and your party can go on right ahead and eff the right off.

12
Ace-o-aces  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:46:09pm

Annnnnd here we go with the “second shooter” BS. Jones is pulling out all the classics today. Has he mentioned Soros yet?

13
makeitstop  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:46:38pm

I always had TP pegged as the guy who’d be around at 80 or 85, still dropping those simple, eloquent, heartfelt songs. I just assumed he’d always be there.

His death hits so hard. Thanks for the great songs, TP. I’ll miss you.

14
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:46:39pm

NO!!!!!!!!!

Not Tom Petty.

Well fuck this day royal. Goddamn it.

15
I Would Prefer Not To  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:47:07pm
Baby time meant nothin’ anything seemed real
Yeah you could kiss like fire and you made me feel
Like every word you said was meant to be
Babe, it couldn’t have been that easy to forget about me

Tom Petty, Even the Losers

16
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:47:38pm

Never did pay much attention to contemporary music, so I sort of missed the whole Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers period.

Still, I knew his name because he had gained so much notoriety.

I do believe we become more sensitive to those dying around us, as we get old. We become more aware.

I’m sure that most 18 year olds never much think about their music idols dying. Probably why Cobain’s death seemed like such a shock. Much like 4 decades earlier when Buddy Holly died, way too young, and his young fans were confronted with how short life can be.

17
The Spite House  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:47:43pm

Man, this one has hit me harder than some of the others we’ve had recently. My mom, a guitarist, loved Petty and introduced me to his music at a young age. It makes me think of her.

18
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:47:51pm

re: #7 Sir John Barron

Can’t believe crazy Pat is still alive.

Can we trade him for Tom Petty. Please?

19
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:48:40pm

re: #10 goddamnedfrank

This fixture may be lawfully owned by anyone, but ALL NFA RULES APPLY regarding the use of some of the features incorporated into this product. You (the purchaser) are solely responsible for how this item is used and I (the seller) shall not be held accountable for any misuse of this drilling/milling jig by you (the purchaser), whether Class II or not. Unauthorized conversion of a firearm from semi into a select-fire without BATF approval, will subject you to a 5 year $250,000 fine/machinegun.

All jig parts included are either “New or Old Testament Scripture Engraved”, if that offends, please purchase another product from another vendor. My products are made in America, by Americans, for Americans.

Unreal.

20
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:49:12pm

re: #5 Kragar

I was wondering who would be first.

21
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:49:39pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

Unreal.

Well that’s just precious.

22
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:50:07pm
23
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:50:19pm

re: #20 Belafon

I was wondering who would be first.

He’s probably had that dialed up since January 20.

24
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:50:25pm

Ugh. :(

I’ve got nothing else.

25
The Spite House  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:50:28pm

re: #12 Ace-o-aces

Annnnnd here we go with the “second shooter” BS. Jones is pulling out all the classics today. Has he mentioned Soros yet?

[Embedded content]

Has he identified the crisis actors yet?

26
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:51:07pm

re: #25 The Spite House

Has he identified the crisis actors yet?

Behind the grassy knoll.

27
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:51:17pm

re: #12 Ace-o-aces

Annnnnd here we go with the “second shooter” BS. Jones is pulling out all the classics today. Has he mentioned Soros yet?

[Embedded content]

It’s a very popular business model these days.

28
makeitstop  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:51:53pm

re: #17 The Spite House

Man, this one has hit me harder than some of the others we’ve had recently. My mom, a guitarist, loved Petty and introduced me to his music at a young age. It makes me think of her.

This one is Bowie-level for me.

The Heartbreakers always represented what a real band was supposed to be. So solid, such a complete integration of five talents, led by the skinny guy from Jacksonville.

They were the embodiment of rock-star cool. And they’ll never be replaced.

29
John Carter  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:51:55pm

“All jig parts included are either “New or Old Testament Scripture Engraved”, if that offends, please purchase another product from another vendor. My products are made in America, by Americans, for Americans and will be used on Americans

30
HappyWarrior  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:51:57pm

One of the first bands I remember from my childhood was the Traveling Wilburys. Now we only have Jeff Lynne and Bob Dylan left. Rest easy, Tom and thanks for the tunes.

31
Unshaken Defiance  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:52:04pm

Living in this town.. So there was this party by the pool where I live, and this one guy is a guest of a neighbor, guy named Benmont. Meant nothing to me as the conversation went from mild politics to music and back around.

Tom Petty had come up and I mention I love the songs/music but the guys voice just rubs me the wrong way. Like Neil Young. Then they tell me who Benmont is. Heartbreakers keyboard/piano. I was mortified.

32
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:52:06pm

re: #7 Sir John Barron

Can’t believe crazy Pat is still alive.

Satan doesn’t want the competition.

33
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:52:18pm

I was stuck on the last thread. I saw many LGF members discussing if Las Vegas was actually terrorism because there needs to be a political angle.

Here is what I posted about why I think it was indeed terrorism.

- - - - -
He certainly had a goal. Killing a lot of Americans at a country western concert. He decided they need to die, just as Roof did. For what reason is not clear.

To me deciding to kill a group of people makes it political. He was making a political decision of death for a group of people he disagreed with for some reason. Just as a judge makes a death sentence.

Even if it is mental, it is still one man deciding for others. We say Trump is mental and he is president. Roof could have been a mental case too…killing people is not normal human activity.

We may never know the details of his thinking, but 600+ people (or more) were affected. That is a small community. He made a decision for those people. That is political, just as a mayor of a small community makes a decision.

34
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:52:42pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

Unreal.

“I’m so self righteous I grave these things with my favorite Bible verses and if that offends you, well honestly I love offending people because that’s just about my whole religion. But don’t tread on me.”

35
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:52:45pm

re: #23 Sir John Barron

He’s probably had that dialed up since January 20.

We all knew eventually there was going to be some public tragedy that would be blamed upon the protests.

36
Sir John Barron  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:53:15pm

re: #35 Targetpractice

We all knew eventually there was going to be some public tragedy that would be blamed upon the protests.

And “disrespect of President Burp”.

37
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:53:22pm

re: #25 The Spite House

Has he identified the crisis actors yet?

There was a tall white guy with facial hair at the Las Vegas shooting AND at the Eagles of Death Metal shooting in Paris! CHECK MATE LIBS!

38
makeitstop  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:55:24pm

re: #31 Unshaken Defiance

Living in this town.. So there was this party by the pool where I live, and this one guy is a guest of a neighbor, guy named Benmont. Meant nothing to me as the conversation went from mild politics to music and back around.

Tom Petty had come up and I mention I love the songs/music but the guys voice just rubs me the wrong way. Like Neil Young. Then they tell me who Benmont is. Heartbreakers keyboard/piano. I was mortified.

Yikes!

39
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:57:18pm

re: #31 Unshaken Defiance

Living in this town.. So there was this party by the pool where I live, and this one guy is a guest of a neighbor, guy named Benmont. Meant nothing to me as the conversation went from mild politics to music and back around.

Tom Petty had come up and I mention I love the songs/music but the guys voice just rubs me the wrong way. Like Neil Young. Then they tell me who Benmont is. Heartbreakers keyboard/piano. I was mortified.

I figure, in those situations, you stand by your statements because backtracking is insincere. Just complement the keyboards more.

40
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:58:04pm

I almost feel sorry for people who expect a conspiracy nut to make sense of the world for them.

41
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:58:42pm
42
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:59:21pm

re: #33 ObserverArt

I was stuck on the last thread. I saw many LGF members discussing if Las Vegas was actually terrorism because there needs to be a political angle.

Here is what I posted about why I think it was indeed terrorism.

- - - - -
He certainly had a goal. Killing a lot of people Americans at a country western concert. ….

When the assumptions we have no evidence for are removed, this is what is left. On evidence to date, it just isn’t political.

So far, there is as much evidence of this being political as there is of this being a statement of musical taste — i.e., zero.

43
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 1:59:26pm

re: #41 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

Well, I think that will cover the discussion from this morning as to whether the guns were obtained legally.

44
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:00:11pm

re: #28 makeitstop

This one is Bowie-level for me.

The Heartbreakers always represented what a real band was supposed to be. So solid, such a complete integration of five talents, led by the skinny guy from Jacksonville.

They were the embodiment of rock-star cool. And they’ll never be replaced.

Gainesville my friend. He was our claim to fame.

gainesville.com

Note TMZ:

1:35 PM PT — Sources tell us at 10:30 Monday morning a chaplain was called to Tom’s hospital room. We’re told the family has a do not resuscitate order on Tom. The singer is not expected to live throughout the day, but he’s still clinging to life. A report that the LAPD confirmed the singer’s death is inaccurate — the L.A. County Sheriff’s Dept. handled the emergency.

45
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:00:22pm

re: #41 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

Shouldn’t buying multiple guns at once be a red flag?
If someone buys a bunch of allergy medicine the cops get called, but not for guns?

46
HappyWarrior  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:01:42pm

re: #45 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

Shouldn’t buying multiple guns at once be a red flag?
If someone buys a bunch of allergy medicine the cops get called, but not for guns?

Yeah I don’t get it.

47
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:01:57pm
48
The Spite House  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:02:17pm
49
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:03:19pm

re: #48 The Spite House

If true, that is not at all the normal pattern for mass shooters.

50
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:03:32pm

re: #42 EPR-radar

I disagree. The fact that he stood in a window and shot at a large number of people, killing them, made it political. His statement may not have been anything more than “Look, I killed a lot of people” but a man with a lot of guns killing people is political.

51
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:04:13pm

re: #45 Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis

Shouldn’t buying multiple guns at once be a red flag?

As someone that own firearms, I would have to agree. I have never bought multiple firearms at the same time. In fact, I can’t think of anyone I know that has. But if I did, I would not object for this being a trigger for local or federal authorities to see if I was up to no good.

52
makeitstop  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:04:52pm

re: #44 Stanley Sea

Gainesville my friend. He was our claim to fame.

I stand corrected.

And you should be proud to claim him. He was a giant.

53
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:07:27pm

In reading the discussions on “do we call this terrorism or not” that have happened here since the news broke, the one thing that comes to mind for me is that, to embrace calling this terrorism before there is any news of a motive or ideological purpose behind it is to strengthen the argument of those who will call any killing by a Muslim or black man terrorism with no regard to the motivation.

I feel that it is wrong when that happens. I think most of us do, hence the pointed jokes about skin color and how the media reports on things, etc. But what is missing in the discussion that the approach being taken here is the one that we would like to see applied in ALL cases, where terrorism is only asserted when there is solid evidence to support the claim, instead of mindlessly saying that because the suspect was Muslim (or brown, or from a foreign country, or black, or whatever), the attack is terrorism.

I understand the frustration on both sides. But intention matters. That’s why Roof’s massacre was terrorism (even if the media failed to call it as such) but Lanza’s wasn’t, for all that it had a higher death toll. Our response can be political. Should be, I would argue. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the act itself was done for that purpose.

And yeah, the cat is probably out of the bag and I’m not necessarily going to convince anyone, but I’m not willing to give assholes cover in their quest to define every shooting by a brown person as terrorism so that does mean I have to be consistent. If evidence comes out to support there being an ideological motive, obviously that changes things.

54
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:08:40pm

re: #51 Dr. Matt

As someone that own firearms, I would have to agree. I have never bought multiple firearms at the same time. In fact, I can’t think of anyone I know that has. But if I did, I would not object for this being a trigger for local or federal authorities to see if I was up to no good.

If you bought them literally at the same time, perhaps. I could, however, see an argument to be made for several sporting-type weapons to be purchased within a short window of time (for example, an upcoming hunting season opening, such as will be the case with deer here before too long). Note, however, my use of the phrase “sporting-type weapons”. I have no problems with someone buying a couple of shotguns in early November. I do, however, have a problem with someone stockpiling semi-automatic rifles and handguns, and ammunition to match, in the middle of the fucking desert.

55
petesh  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:09:30pm

re: #52 makeitstop

I stand corrected.

And you should be proud to claim him. He was a giant.

So much of a giant that this was instant (in fact, we now hear, slightly premature):

“It’s shocking, crushing news,” Petty’s friend and Traveling Wilburys bandmate Bob Dylan tells Rolling Stone in a statement. “I thought the world of Tom. He was great performer, full of the light, a friend, and I’ll never forget him.”

56
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:09:56pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated.

57
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:10:07pm
58
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:10:23pm

re: #42 EPR-radar

When the assumptions we have no evidence for are removed, this is what is left. On evidence to date, it just isn’t political.

So far, there is as much evidence of this being political as there is of this being a statement of musical taste — i.e., zero.

I caught your comment in the previous thread. It’s just an opinion, and I will hold to it.

To me when you decide the outcomes of so many lives it is in my thinking political as in any person making decisions for a large group of people. Such as a mayor, a judge, etc.

To the victims, what is the difference between 9/11, Oklahoma, etc., and now LasVegas? The victims were not aware of the politic thinking. The outcomes are similar. Someone decide for their own reasons to kill people for those reasons.

I think the word terrorism needs some additional definitions added to it due to the modern world. I agree as defined now it is not.

And as a reminder, did everyone see the tweet From Gabby Giffords and her husband Mark Kelly. He used the term Domestic Terrorism to explain Las Vegas. I think he feels it is political based on what we know now, and I think they as a couple can make a decision like that.

59
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:10:48pm

re: #56 Quoth the raven, Covfefe.

Slightly exaggerated, it seems.

60
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:10:58pm
61
danarchy  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:11:16pm

re: #50 Belafon

I disagree. The fact that he stood in a window and shot at a large number of people, killing them, made it political. His statement may not have been anything more than “Look, I killed a lot of people” but a man with a lot of guns killing people is political.

Yeah, I just don’t see how that is political unless you are using a very loose definition of political.

I am not saying this wasn’t terrorism, just saying we don’t know. If you make terrorism synonymous with mass murder it is just a watering down of the term.

62
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:12:21pm

re: #59 Belafon

Slightly exaggerated, it seems.

Either way, it still sucks. If he isn’t dead yet, seems like he will be soon, and that’s already too much for one day.

63
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:12:46pm

re: #52 makeitstop

I stand corrected.

And you should be proud to claim him. He was a giant.

Giants stand with Dylan and Harrison.

64
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:12:49pm
65
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:13:07pm

re: #61 danarchy

Yeah, I just don’t see how that is political unless you are using a very loose definition of political.

I am not saying this wasn’t terrorism, just saying we don’t know. If you make terrorism synonymous with mass murder it is just a watering down of the term.

I’m inclined to stay away from terrorism until we find out his motive. I just think you cannot separate this from politics. One man just decided the fate of 58 people and altered the lives of hundreds of others.

Edit: Especially considering how this ties into the issue of guns in this country.

66
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:13:23pm

re: #62 Quoth the raven, Covfefe.

Either way, it still sucks. If he isn’t dead yet, seems like he will be soon, and that’s already too much for one day.

Agree.

67
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:16:17pm

re: #65 Belafon

I’m inclined to stay away from terrorism until we find out his motive. I just think you cannot separate this from politics. One man just decided the fate of 58 people and altered the lives of hundreds of others.

The act may or may not have had a political motivation. If it did, that’s terrorism. If not, it’s mass murder.

Our response can (and I would argue should) be political without the act itself needing to be terrorism. But the response being political does not make the act itself terrorism.

69
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:17:21pm

re: #64 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

And at least 95% of it bullshit being invented by wingnuts looking to convince themselves that they’re the victims of a grand conspiracy to take their guns, their “freedoms,” and their lives.

70
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:17:42pm

re: #54 Quoth the raven, Covfefe.

If you bought them literally at the same time, perhaps. I could, however, see an argument to be made for several sporting-type weapons to be purchased within a short window of time (for example, an upcoming hunting season opening, such as will be the case with deer here before too long). Note, however, my use of the phrase “sporting-type weapons”. I have no problems with someone buying a couple of shotguns in early November. I do, however, have a problem with someone stockpiling semi-automatic rifles and handguns, and ammunition to match, in the middle of the fucking desert.

As a guy with a collection of over 200 vintage watches, I can actually understand buying a large number of similar-but-not-identical items, including guns, if you’re a collector. And, you know, guns are fun. Shooting sports are fun. A well made gun is a nice little piece of machinery.

But, you know, too many ‘law abiding gun owners’ kill too many people for us to still think in these terms. This guy, who killed more Americans in a hour than died on any day of the Iraq War, was a law abiding gun owner, right up until he wasn’t. So I really cannot give a good goddam if you think that your ‘right’ to collect firearms overrides MY right not to get shot by them.

At some point, we have to do something. Don’t we?

71
Targetpractice  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:18:21pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I apologize that his tiny dick means he feels he needs to seriously overcompensate.

72
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:18:47pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Grumpy Cat memes were made for moments like this.

73
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:19:31pm

re: #70 Blind Frog Belly White

Remember, six months ago, how people were arguing that Democrats needed to stay away from gun issues?

74
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:19:40pm

re: #7 Sir John Barron

Can’t believe crazy Pat is still alive.

And Tom Petty is dead. God needed another Artist more than Satan needs another crazy preacher.

75
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:20:02pm

re: #61 danarchy

Yeah, I just don’t see how that is political unless you are using a very loose definition of political.

I am not saying this wasn’t terrorism, just saying we don’t know. If you make terrorism synonymous with mass murder it is just a watering down of the term.

But if he shouted “allahu akbar”….even just once….it would have been defined as “political”.

Terrorism or not? Las Vegas reignites a real — and really important — debate.

As for the technical definition of terrorism, it importantly deals with the motive rather than the size of the carnage. Federal law says terrorism is “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” In other words, whether 50 people are killed or a few people are hurt, what matters is what the attacker intended.

When Muslims commit terrorist attacks, it fits into a clear clash of civilizations that has been playing out for decades. It seems part of a broader war taking place not just in one country, but worldwide, and it aims to inflict — often successfully — fear of similar attacks in the future. Attacks like the ones on Charleston, Charlottesville and suburban Washington don’t so easily fit into a large-scale conflict, and the motives of the shooters (especially if they are dead) may be more complicated to ascertain.

[…]

And the act in Las Vegas does seem to fit at least one definition of terrorism: the state of Nevada’s. Nevada defines an act of terrorism as “any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to … cause great bodily harm or death to the general population.

76
Scottish Dragon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:20:13pm

I have been staying low on news sites and even here at LGF because of stress.

I have no words for today. My God.

77
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:20:34pm

re: #74 Big Beautiful Door

And Tom Petty is dead. God needed another Artist more than Satan needs another crazy preacher.

Can you imagine the whining Pat will do when he’s in Hell. If I were Satan, I’d delay it as long as possible as well.

78
scottslemmons  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:21:16pm

Broke out my Traveling Wilbury’s album — and really can’t get past “Not Alone Any More,” which Orbison sang lead for. I’ve replayed it three times, just to enjoy his last chorus on the track.

79
wrenchwench  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:22:16pm
80
Hecuba's daughter  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:23:31pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

And at least 95% of it bullshit being invented by wingnuts looking to convince themselves that they’re the victims of a grand conspiracy to take their guns, their “freedoms,” and their lives.

For years, especially when talking to a gun-nut who brings up Chicago and its supposed gun restrictions, my policy has been to blame every shooting death in this country on the NRA. It is thanks to them that we have no effective control over firearms. And I continue to adhere to this principle.

81
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:25:31pm

The word terrorism is being used for Las Vegas. Just saw this looking for Gabby Gifford’s husband Mark Kelly using the words “domestic terrorism” earlier today to add to the debate on if this was terrorism.

Rolling Stone Article on Las Veags/Terrorism

It’s Time to Politicize the Terror Attack in Las Vegas

By Tim Dickinson
1 second ago
On Sunday night, a domestic terrorist, using weapons suited for battle, took aim from the 32nd floor of a Las Vegas hotel and rained bullets down on a country music festival - killing at least 58 people, wounding more than 500 others and sending a crowd of 22,000 fleeing in panic.

The headlines scream “worst gun massacre in modern history” - and indeed, the massacre surpasses the death toll at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando just last year.

But Las Vegas was also the third deadliest modern terror attack on American soil, trailing only 9/11 and the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City.

America needs to confront this terrorism - and the forces that enable it.

Some definitions of terrorism hold that the violence must be perpetrated toward a political end. We do not yet know the motive behind the targeting of defenseless civilians at a music festival. The alleged gunman, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, is dead, and the logic of his attack may have died with him. But if a man who brings more than a dozen weapons into a hotel room for the express purpose of exterminating innocent civilians - and prompting tens of thousands of others to flee for their lives - does not qualify not a “terrorist,” then the word has lost any functional meaning.

Mark Kelly - the retired Navy captain and astronaut and husband of former Rep. Gabby Giffords - underscored this idea on Monday. “This is the worst-case scenario. It’s haunted our dreams, that we would wake up to the news of a massacre like this: weapons of war, in the hands of a determined killer, with a tactical advantage. This was an ambush if there ever was one,” he said. “This was domestic terrorism.”

The Las Vegas massacre also plainly qualifies as an “act of terrorism” as defined by Nevada law - encompassing “any act that involves the use … [of] violence which is intended to: Cause great bodily harm or death to the general population.”

The category error - labeling terrorism as “gun violence” - has dire consequences. America is at war with terrorism. We have made peace with gun violence.

82
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:25:49pm

re: #73 Belafon

Remember, six months ago, how people were arguing that Democrats needed to stay away from gun issues?

Being sensible on guns is the kiss of death in many parts of the country. These are difficult problems, but one thing is for sure at the moment — you can have a (D) 50 state strategy or you can insist that all (D) candidates support at least baby steps toward gun sanity, but you can’t have both.

IMO what is needed is a (D) 50 state strategy now, and a consistent decades-long public policy effort intended to counteract NRA propaganda. If the public policy effort succeeds, then Democrats will be able to support gun sanity in more of the country over time.

83
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:26:34pm

re: #73 Belafon

Remember, six months ago, how people were arguing that Democrats needed to stay away from gun issues?

And racial issues.

84
Romantic Heretic  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:29:39pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

All jig parts included are either “New or Old Testament Scripture Engraved”, if that offends, please purchase another product from another vendor. My products are made in America, by Americans, for Americans.

Is he planning on using those to fight vampires or other supernatural entities?

85
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:30:32pm

re: #70 Blind Frog Belly White

As a guy with a collection of over 200 vintage watches, I can actually understand buying a large number of similar-but-not-identical items, including guns, if you’re a collector. And, you know, guns are fun. Shooting sports are fun. A well made gun is a nice little piece of machinery.

But, you know, too many ‘law abiding gun owners’ kill too many people for us to still think in these terms. This guy, who killed more Americans in a hour than died on any day of the Iraq War, was a law abiding gun owner, right up until he wasn’t. So I really cannot give a good goddam if you think that your ‘right’ to collect firearms overrides MY right not to get shot by them.

At some point, we have to do something. Don’t we?

No, we don’t. If we did, we would’ve done something after a bunch of schoolchildren were slaughtered.

86
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:33:02pm

re: #85 Big Beautiful Door

No, we don’t. If we did, we would’ve done something after a bunch of schoolchildren were slaughtered.

If a bunch of Congressional Democrats get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA will do nothing.

If a bunch of Congressional Republicans get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA might do something.

If the NRA board and executives get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA will do something.

87
meteor  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:33:59pm
88
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:34:08pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

I like how that Microchip guy claims he “redpilled” himself while deliberately and openly spreading lies via botnets for his conservative ideology. Red pillers pretend their entire identity is constructed around accepting the harshness of reality and spreading truth but all they ever fucking do is lie.

89
Quoth the raven, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:34:50pm

re: #86 EPR-radar

If a bunch of Congressional Democrats get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA will do nothing.

If a bunch of Congressional Republicans get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA might do something.

If the NRA board and executives get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA will do something.

A man tried to shoot Ronald Fucking Reagan, and they still did nothing. I’m not so sure they’ll do anything even if a bunch of Republicans or NRA execs do get murdered.

90
Ace-o-aces  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:35:50pm
91
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:36:38pm

re: #88 goddamnedfrank

I like how that Microchip guy claims he “redpilled” himself while deliberately and openly spreading lies via botnets for his conservative ideology. Red pillers pretend their entire identity is constructed around accepting the harshness of reality and spreading truth but all they ever fucking do is lie.

This guy is seriously fucked up, and he has a lot of followers who are just as fucked up. I don’t know what makes people this twisted - they’re absolutely toxic.

92
danarchy  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:37:31pm

re: #86 EPR-radar

If a bunch of Congressional Republicans get slaughtered by a mass murderer, the Republicans and NRA might do something.

This one sort of happened already no? I don’t even think Scalise has changed his opinion.

94
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:39:51pm

re: #89 Quoth the raven, Covfefe.

A man tried to shoot Ronald Fucking Reagan, and they still did nothing. I’m not so sure they’ll do anything even if a bunch of Republicans or NRA execs do get murdered.

Realistically, POTUS is always a target and gun control will be the least of the problems faced by anyone determined to make a real POTUS assassination attempt.

The mass shooting events get all the press, but the real numbers to look at for gun control, IMO, are the much more common events that don’t get into the national news, like suicides, domestic violence, negligence etc.

95
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:42:34pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

96
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:43:05pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

This guy is seriously fucked up, and he has a lot of followers who are just as fucked up. I don’t know what makes people this twisted - they’re absolutely toxic.

Did you read the Buzzfeed article I posted in the last thread? How hard would it really be for Twitter to permanently ban that asshole if they wanted to? I think for starters they could try to eliminate his brand identity from their network, flag every new account with that avi, or with micro and ™️ in the name. I’m pretty sure he’s also broken several CFAA laws to create his botnets, libel laws and possibly stalking ordinances. Twitter and the other social media sites need to take drastic action to scrape the assholes off their networks because the tools they’ve created are allowing these sociopaths to irreversibly damage and destabilize society.

97
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:43:19pm

re: #81 ObserverArt

This is a seriously interesting point that I hadn’t considered before.

My reluctance to broaden the definition of ‘terrorism’ comes from the fact that US civil liberties become particularly endangered (sometimes nonexistent) when ‘terrorism’ is involved.

So there’s a real conflict here for me to ponder.

98
HypnoToad  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:43:30pm

Could someone remind me what the difference between Right wing patriotic conservatism and Scientology is?

99
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:44:11pm

re: #98 HypnoToad

Could someone remind me what the difference between Right wing patriotic conservatism and Scientology is?

Scientology has a smaller body count?

100
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:45:31pm

If I were running Twitter’s Trust and Safety devision I’d not only ban all of Microchips accounts, I’d permanently ban every single account that’s following any of them. No appeals allowed, just make it clear that if you follow trash then you are trash and you’re going to lose your account.

101
wrenchwench  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:50:12pm

I played the Greatest Hits CD of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers non-stop for three days while I finished my business plan for the shop. Finally got it turned in at the bank (as a loan application), thought I’d get an answer in three weeks or three months or something. It was 30 minutes and it was ‘yes’.

Then I would play that CD whenever I needed to get something done, like taxes or payroll. Now it won’t work that way. I’ll play it anyway. Like I am right now.

102
Jay C  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:50:13pm

re: #99 EPR-radar

re: #98 HypnoToad

Could someone remind me what the difference between Right wing patriotic conservatism and Scientology is?

Scientology has a slightly smaller body count?

103
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:53:24pm

re: #98 HypnoToad

Could someone remind me what the difference between Right wing patriotic conservatism and Scientology is?

The spelling.

104
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:53:33pm
105
Jay C  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:54:59pm

BTW, has there been any actual confirmation yet, by any authoritative source (family, hospital, LE, anybody?) that Tom Petty is actually dead?

As of 17:55 ET, there still seems to be some doubt as to Petty’s life-status: admittedly, the prognosis does not look at all promising, but Tom still seems (at least technically) to still be with us.

Very strange.

106
HappyWarrior  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:55:56pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

It’s what they do. Assholes.

107
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:56:23pm

re: #98 HypnoToad

Could someone remind me what the difference between Right wing patriotic conservatism and Scientology is?

Better celebrities?

108
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 2:57:06pm

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

Did you read the Buzzfeed article I posted in the last thread? How hard would it really be for Twitter to permanently ban that asshole if they wanted to? I think for starters they could try to eliminate his brand identity from their network, flag every new account with that avi, or with micro and TM️ in the name. I’m pretty sure he’s also broken several CFAA laws to create his botnets, libel laws and possibly stalking ordinances. Twitter and the other social media sites need to take drastic action to scrape the assholes off their networks because the tools they’ve created are allowing these sociopaths to irreversibly damage and destabilize society.

I will say right off, I have no Twitter or Facebook accounts. I think they are actually harming society rather than being “social.”

The tools they’ve created are based on driving others to comment, thus driving numbers of re-tweets, new tweets, facebook post and shares, etc., etc.

Those numbers are their business. They sell ads and research data.

I have a feeling these social platforms allow a lot of stuff to go because it creates traffic and numbers. Banning too many accounts probably can be shown to kill a lot of those numbers thus killing revenue.

I bet they have the data to make those decisions. They may toss one or two here and there, maybe even based on the kind of numbers their accounts trigger to show they do in fact ban people. But overall banning is just plain bad for business.

All I know is there are ways to force change. Will people gather together and do a large protest to force change? Or will people wither away from using them over time due to the BS allowed? Then there will be change. Or, they will go away when someone figures out something better?

109
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:00:41pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

This fixture may be lawfully owned by anyone, but ALL NFA RULES APPLY regarding the use of some of the features incorporated into this product. You (the purchaser) are solely responsible for how this item is used and I (the seller) shall not be held accountable for any misuse of this drilling/milling jig by you (the purchaser), whether Class II or not. Unauthorized conversion of a firearm from semi into a select-fire without BATF approval, will subject you to a 5 year $250,000 fine/machinegun.

i just held the cat’s tail

the cat ran

110
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:00:56pm

re: #97 EPR-radar

This is a seriously interesting point that I hadn’t considered before.

My reluctance to broaden the definition of ‘terrorism’ comes from the fact that US civil liberties become particularly endangered (sometimes nonexistent) when ‘terrorism’ is involved.

So there’s a real conflict here for me to ponder.

It is time to think about the term, because an acceptance that it is terrorism may be helpful for how we handle guns, mental health and policing. And, it will force change how people play with it all in the media or in politics. Example: Too many refuse to even call Roof a terrorist, yet we agree on that one.

111
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:02:31pm

re: #31 Unshaken Defiance

Living in this town.. So there was this party by the pool where I live, and this one guy is a guest of a neighbor, guy named Benmont. Meant nothing to me as the conversation went from mild politics to music and back around.

Tom Petty had come up and I mention I love the songs/music but the guys voice just rubs me the wrong way. Like Neil Young. Then they tell me who Benmont is. Heartbreakers keyboard/piano. I was mortified.

ditto the voices
it’s taken a long long time for neil young’s voice to grow on me

112
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:04:05pm

Sheriff presser right now.

More guns & explosives found.

Swat is hitting another house in North Nevada now.

113
BlueSpotinAL  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:04:52pm

re: #76 Scottish Dragon

I have been staying low on news sites and even here at LGF because of stress.

I have no words for today. My God.

Prepping for a colonoscopy. Seems appropriate for today.

114
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:05:29pm

So, the Vegas sheriff is holding a news conference out in Vegas.

They found 18 more guns, a lot of ammo, some bombs and electrical devices (unclear).

And his brother said he didn’t have guns, I believe.

No one knew this guy, not even his family.

115
Unshaken Defiance  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:05:30pm

re: #39 Belafon

I was highly complimentary of the writing. Amazing..

116
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:06:18pm

Live Presser Going on Right Now at: go.cnn.com

117
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:08:15pm

re: #33 ObserverArt

I was stuck on the last thread. I saw many LGF members discussing if Las Vegas was actually terrorism because there needs to be a political angle.

Here is what I posted about why I think it was indeed terrorism.

- - - - -
He certainly had a goal. Killing a lot of Americans at a country western concert. He decided they need to die, just as Roof did. For what reason is not clear.

To me deciding to kill a group of people makes it political. He was making a political decision of death for a group of people he disagreed with for some reason. Just as a judge makes a death sentence.

Even if it is mental, it is still one man deciding for others. We say Trump is mental and he is president. Roof could have been a mental case too…killing people is not normal human activity.

We may never know the details of his thinking, but 600+ people (or more) were affected. That is a small community. He made a decision for those people. That is political, just as a mayor of a small community makes a decision.

im going to put a fine point on it

i’d suggest the goal of terrorism is that by targeting innocents it will force political change

without these two points, it’s still something else heinous.
could even be a political statement

i think it’s not terrorism.

118
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:08:31pm

I fucking give up. The US deserves Donald Trump. The US is Donald Trump.

119
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:09:52pm

re: #118 Skip Intro

I fucking give up. The US deserves Donald Trump. The US is Donald Trump.

I wouldn’t go that far. I’d say that the GOP deserves Donald Trump. But the rest of us don’t.

In aggregate, though, that’s hard to argue with.

120
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:10:06pm

Vegas coroner speaking now.

121
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:10:33pm

re: #117 dangerman

im going to put a fine point on it

i’d suggest the goal of terrorism is that by targeting innocents it will force political change

without these two points, it’s still something else heinous.
could even be a political statement

i think it’s not terrorism.

I think you are making your way down the thread. You will find some good articles regarding this topic as you read more posts.

122
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:13:43pm

re: #118 Skip Intro

I fucking give up. The US deserves Donald Trump. The US is Donald Trump.

Sadly, America won’t learn. America didn’t learn from the complete and utter failures under dubyah for 8 years and America never appreciated the leadership President Obama brought for 8 years.

123
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:14:01pm

Gofundme at 1.2 million

124
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:14:02pm

re: #119 Blind Frog Belly White

We didn’t stop him. A lot of us couldn’t even be bothered to vote, or wouldn’t vote because the other candidate wasn’t “pure” enough for us.

We are a racist country, a totally corrupt country, and a morally bankrupt country. Note that I don’t associate morality with religion, since that’s all bullshit.

We deserve whatever happens to us. We earned it.

125
Dr. Matt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:14:16pm

Updated numbers: 59 dead, 527 injured

126
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:14:27pm

re: #121 ObserverArt

I think you are making your way down the thread. You will find some good articles regarding this topic as you read more posts.

d*mn, again i’m late for dinner ;-)

i’ll just sit here quietly

127
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:17:31pm

re: #124 Skip Intro

We didn’t stop him. A lot of us couldn’t even be bothered to vote, or wouldn’t vote because the other candidate wasn’t “pure” enough for us.

We are a racist country, a totally corrupt country, and a morally bankrupt country. Note that I don’t associate morality with religion, since that’s all bullshit.

We deserve whatever happens to us. We earned it.

To preserve the possibility of hope, I prefer to defer coming to those conclusions until the elections of 2018 and 2020.

128
(Bert the Turtle)  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:18:38pm

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

I ‘reported,’ or whatever it’s called on Twitter, the microchip dude this morning. So, that didn’t do squat.

129
wrenchwench  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:19:56pm

Damn those wrenches.

130
fern01  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:25:38pm

re: #81 ObserverArt

The Las Vegas massacre also plainly qualifies as an “act of terrorism” as defined by Nevada law - encompassing “any act that involves the use … [of] violence which is intended to: Cause great bodily harm or death to the general population.”

Any act which terrorizes a random group of people will always be to me “an act of terrorism”
I do not agree with the explanation that an act of terror has to be politically motivated but on an earlier thread I was said to be “embarrassing myself” by expressing this opinion. I am pleased to see some support for my embarrassing opinion.

131
ipsos  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:25:59pm

re: #105 Jay C

BTW, has there been any actual confirmation yet, by any authoritative source (family, hospital, LE, anybody?) that Tom Petty is actually dead?

As of 17:55 ET, there still seems to be some doubt as to Petty’s life-status: admittedly, the prognosis does not look at all promising, but Tom still seems (at least technically) to still be with us.

Very strange.

He is Schrodinger’s rock star.

(And yes, I woke up again after trying to just go to bed for the night. Must have been the residual effects of the sleeping pill I took last night to try to calm down from what I thought was all the craziness of the world yesterday. Little did I know Monday was waiting, asking us all to hold its beer.)

132
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:26:24pm

re: #127 EPR-radar

To preserve the possibility of hope, I prefer to defer coming to those conclusions until the elections of 2018 and 2020.

I am now worried about 2020. Not that Trump will win re-election; his victory last year was a fluke with many unusual events combining to allow him to squeak to an electoral victory despite a popular vote defeat. In 2020 the Democratic nominee will probably be much more popular than Trump, and people much less inclined to throw away their votes on third party candidates. No, what concerns me is that Trump will insist he really won, the election was stolen, and will refuse to leave the White House. Then we will face the worst, and possibly bloodiest constitutional crisis since the Civil War. This could be the race war his cult is amassing their arsenals for. We can no longer assume it can’t happen here; it can.

133
meteor  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:28:24pm

I meant to post the video for “Don’t Come Around Here No More,” not just the still picture. Here’s hoping this link works.

Don’t Come Around Here No More

134
meteor  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:29:07pm

re: #125 Dr. Matt

WTF

135
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:31:30pm

re: #130 fern01

Any act which terrorizes a random group of people will always be to me “an act of terrorism”
I do not agree with the explanation that an act of terror has to be politically motivated but on an earlier thread I was said to be “embarrassing myself” by expressing this opinion. I am pleased to see some support for my embarrassing opinion.

Sergey/Nyet?

He is by the book. What we are discussing is changing the book’s definition.

136
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:32:10pm
137
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:34:09pm

re: #135 ObserverArt

Sergey/Nyet?

He is by the book. What we are discussing is changing the book’s definition.

Change the definition, lose a word. Now you have no word for violence aimed at civilians to frighten them into political actions.

138
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:35:52pm

I have personally noticed my capacity for shock diminishes with each even larger mass shooting.

139
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:37:49pm

Ammonium nitrate found in his car?

140
Woods Witch  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:38:46pm

re: #139 Stanley Sea

Sounded like it. And tannerite at the residence

141
fern01  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:39:51pm

re: #135 ObserverArt

Sergey/Nyet?

He is by the book. What we are discussing is changing the book’s definition.

From your post Nevada law has already removed political from the definition - so discussing changing the definition seems to be out of date.

I admit to being utterly confused (but not embarrassing). I haven’t read the full discussion on the prior thread. I needed some time out to even comprehend that this really happened.

142
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:39:53pm

re: #132 Big Beautiful Door

By 2020 Trump will have likely appointed another wingnut to the Supreme Court along with dozens of wingnut Federal judges. His party will continue their voter suppression work, along with the destruction of every Federal agency that protects the health and safety of most Americans.

Fox “News” will continue to get worse, as will its partners Sinclair, talk radio and the RW internet sites. Fake news will drive out real news.

By 2020 this country will no longer be recognizable. If I were still a young person I’d be busting my ass to find another country to emigrate to before things here really get bad. Remember, when you get old, unless you’re a 100+ millionaire, nobody wants you because you bring no value, only costs.

143
Citizen K  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:43:37pm

re: #137 Blind Frog Belly White

Change the definition, lose a word. Now you have no word for violence aimed at civilians to frighten them into political actions.

Here’s the thing: under that metric, we’ve already lost that word when it became somehow inapplicable toward incidents like Robert Dear shooting up the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood, or Dylan Roof in Charleston. The word is already politically charged and relative as is at this point.

144
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:45:49pm

re: #137 Blind Frog Belly White

Change the definition, lose a word. Now you have no word for violence aimed at civilians to frighten them into political actions.

Also, what’s the required body count for mass murder to become an act of terrorism?

Ten? Five? Two?

145
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:46:05pm

re: #137 Blind Frog Belly White

Change the definition, lose a word. Now you have no word for violence aimed at civilians to frighten them into political actions.

Okay. Let’s run with that thought. What if this guy was just a frustrated individual that thinks like many here. That would be this country fucking sucks and he has grown so disillusioned with things like healthcare and gun control that he just says fuck it, goes out and arms up and gets ready for his last statement, totally different from what everyone knew about him.

Then sometime last week he decides he will show everyone how fucked up this country really is. He’s says to himself, you want guns, you want to shirk healthcare for people; here are your guns, here is why you are going to need healthcare.

Maybe he thinks if he can pull off the worst mass gun shooting ever and cause the need for healthcare he can bring about change. Maybe he forces America to talk about guns now. Maybe they see through the injured how important healthcare is.

What if that really is his motive and know one will ever know.

Is he a terrorist? What if he was politically motivated and we don’t know?

How many are prepared to tell the friends and family this wasn’t terrorism? What are the definitions of a word if they don’t define how people are now using them?

146
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:46:20pm

Why toy guns — but not real guns — are banned on the Las Vegas strip

t’s been illegal to carry a toy gun on the Las Vegas Strip since 2012, when Clark County commissioners passed an ordinance banning “dangerous objects” from the Strip.

The ban, intended to make the sidewalks safer, prohibited flame throwers, blades over three-inches long and toy guns.

But what it didn’t prohibit was real guns.

….

No permit is required to buy a gun in Nevada, and there’s no limit on the number of guns that one person can purchase at once, according to CNN. Carrying firearms openly is also legal.

Of course not. Death by massacre is just one of the things you have to accept to be truly free.

Read more here: sanluisobispo.com

147
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:46:36pm

re: #130 fern01

Any act which terrorizes a random group of people will always be to me “an act of terrorism”
I do not agree with the explanation that an act of terror has to be politically motivated but on an earlier thread I was said to be “embarrassing myself” by expressing this opinion. I am pleased to see some support for my embarrassing opinion.

same root word more than one meaning

one is to instill extreme fear in people - to terrorize them

another is the more classic terrorism - a form of extortion - give us what we want politically or we’ll hurt these innocent people who have nothing to do with this. and we’ll keep hurting more of them till we get what we want.

148
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:47:12pm

Football players kneel to protest racism: respond by burning their jerseys, issuing death threats.

White guy commits mass murder with guns: people go out and buy more. Gun stocks surge.

#MAGA

149
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:48:11pm

re: #143 Citizen K

Here’s the thing: under that metric, we’ve already lost that word when it became somehow inapplicable toward incidents like Robert Dear shooting up the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood, or Dylan Roof in Charleston. The word is already politically charged and relative as is at this point.

Pretty sure I defined Roof as terrorism earlier today.

150
Citizen K  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:51:59pm

re: #149 Blind Frog Belly White

Pretty sure I defined Roof as terrorism earlier today.

Yes, but the broader consensus around the country still has trouble doing that, precisely because ‘terrorism’ has far to often become less about whether there was any broader political intent behind the attacks, but a tribal identifier. The word is already compromised in that sense far as its common use.

151
Woods Witch  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:52:19pm

re: #148 GlutenFreeJesus

Football player kneels: There are limits to the first amendment

Man murders 58 people: How dare you talk about limiting the second amendment

152
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:53:18pm

re: #147 dangerman

same root word more than one meaning

one is to instill extreme fear in people - to terrorize them

another is the more classic terrorism - a form of extortion - give us what we want politically or we’ll hurt these innocent people who have nothing to do with this. and we’ll keep hurting more of them till we get what we want.

Life may have not given this guy what he wanted. So he lashed out on innocent people, or people he saw as not needed in this world because they are what he wants changed.

Taking this many lives is the ultimate threat of force.

153
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:54:27pm

re: #150 Citizen K

Yes, but the broader consensus around the country still has trouble doing that, precisely because ‘terrorism’ has far to often become less about whether there was any broader political intent behind the attacks, but a tribal identifier. The word is already compromised in that sense far as its common use.

I guess I fail to see how embracing that tribal identifier is going to push back against the people who were misusing it.

I do see where it will make it harder to point out the hypocrisy of the people doing so.

In the end, the only thing I can control is my own integrity and willingness to be careful with the words I use. I’d like to think that for those who pay attention to that sort of thing, it will make the occasions where I do use certain words more meaningful.

Whatever, the olives have to get swept from the sidewalk and then more work on the strudel baking.

154
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:54:43pm

re: #149 Blind Frog Belly White

Pretty sure I defined Roof as terrorism earlier today.

You did. But so many others say he was not a terrorist. This debate is going both ways. I’d say for political reasons.

155
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:55:40pm

re: #151 Woods Witch

Football player kneels: There are limits to the first amendment

Man murders 58 people: How dare you talk about limiting the second amendment

The Second Amendment was brought by Moses down from the mountaintop and is perfect in every way and may never be modified or amended. The First Amendment is just something written on a “goddamned piece of paper”, as GW Bush was alleged to say.

156
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:56:22pm

re: #145 ObserverArt

Okay. Let’s run with that thought. What if this guy was just a frustrated individual that thinks like many here. That would be this country fucking sucks and he has grown so disillusioned with things like healthcare and gun control that he just says fuck it, goes out and arms up and gets ready for his last statement, totally different from what everyone knew about him.

Then sometime last week he decides he will show everyone how fucked up this country really is. He’s says to himself, you want guns, you want to shirk healthcare for people; here are your guns, here is why you are going to need healthcare.

Maybe he thinks if he can pull off the worst mass gun shooting ever and cause the need for healthcare he can bring about change. Maybe he forces America to talk about guns now. Maybe they see through the injured how important healthcare is.

What if that really is his motive and know one will ever know.

Is he a terrorist? What if he was politically motivated and we don’t know?

How many are prepared to tell the friends and family this wasn’t terrorism? What are the definitions of a word if they don’t define how people are now using them?

Then he was a really, really inept terrorist.
//

I guess I don’t understand the need to label this as terrorism, since terrorism has a definition that doesn’t seem to fit, and there are terms for what this is that do fit, like ‘mass shooting’, or ‘massacre’.

I understand that the eagerness of the Right to characterize any untoward act by nonwhite and/or non-Christians, especially Muslims as ‘terrorism’ drives a desire to correctly label heinous acts committed by white and/or Christians as terrorism, but eventually the term becomes meaningless if too widely applied.

157
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:57:02pm

re: #154 ObserverArt

If “our” guy did it then it’s not terrorism. If your “guy” did it, then it is.

158
Woods Witch  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:58:39pm

re: #155 Skip Intro

Yep

159
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:58:56pm

re: #155 Skip Intro

The Second Amendment was brought by Moses down from the mountaintop and is perfect in every way and may never be modified or amended. The First Amendment is just something written on a “goddamned piece of paper”, as GW Bush was alleged to say.

Except for the religious liberty part, which only applies to Christians.

160
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 3:59:24pm

re: #153 klys (maker of Silmarils)

I guess I fail to see how embracing that tribal identifier is going to push back against the people who were misusing it.

I do see where it will make it harder to point out the hypocrisy of the people doing so.

In the end, the only thing I can control is my own integrity and willingness to be careful with the words I use. I’d like to think that for those who pay attention to that sort of thing, it will make the occasions where I do use certain words more meaningful.

Whatever, the olives have to get swept from the sidewalk and then more work on the strudel baking.

Klys, how do new words and definitions get entered in a dictionary? Is it not by use? Is language not acceptance of a word and what it means based on that use?

(And I know you may not see this, just adding to the debate using your comment)

161
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:01:07pm

re: #159 Big Beautiful Door

The right kind of Christians. Certainly none of the ones who follow the Whore of Rome.

Future Senator Roy Moore will be fleshing this out in law a little later.

162
petesh  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:01:51pm

re: #160 ObserverArt

Klys, how do new words and definitions get entered in a dictionary? Is it not by use? Is language not acceptance of a word and what it means based on that use?

(And I know you may not see this, just adding to the debate using your comment)

This used to be controversial, with some saying that a dictionary should be prescriptive not just descriptive. I think “descriptive” has won out, but the big guns, Webster’s and Oxford, tend to wait a little to see if the fad ends.

163
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:03:12pm

re: #150 Citizen K

Yes, but the broader consensus around the country still has trouble doing that, precisely because ‘terrorism’ has far to often become less about whether there was any broader political intent behind the attacks, but a tribal identifier. The word is already compromised in that sense far as its common use.

I tend to resist being pushed by others into linguistic changes I don’t agree with*.

I object to the overbroad use of it by the Right applying it to anything Muslims do that they don’t like, as well as the reluctance to use it for heinous acts committed by white people. I similarly object to the use of “I could care less” and “irregardless”, and using “infer” when you mean “imply”.

This is a windmill I’m willing to tilt with, even if not a hill I’m willing to die for.

*And here let me note that I wrote that with a wry smile on my lips, just so you know I’m not being a dick.

164
Kragar  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:03:58pm
165
HappyWarrior  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:04:37pm

re: #164 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Spot on.

166
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:04:44pm

re: #157 Skip Intro

If “our” guy did it then it’s not terrorism. If your “guy” did it, then it is.

Whereas I consider the firebombing of Dresden and other such targets to be terrorism.

167
Eclectic Cyborg  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:05:19pm

Am I wrong in stating that the 2nd Amendment was added for a very specific purpose and its intent has become extremely warped and twisted over time?

168
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:05:59pm

re: #156 Blind Frog Belly White

There is a distinction between the atrocities perpetrated by Roof, McVeigh, Atta et al. and atrocities perpetrated by Lanza, Whitman et al. that is mostly captured by calling the first category terrorism and the second category something else.

If all mass murders are to be regarded as being ‘terrorism’, then we’d need a way to describe the distinction thus erased. Alternately, but implausibly IMO, one could argue that there is in fact no distinction as stated.

169
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:06:17pm

I gots work to do, and I don’t want to belabor the point.

All I know is the people at Las Vegas could not tell at the moment they were not under a terrorist attack.

They probably felt the same thoughts and fears as the victims in Manchester since it was in so many ways the exact same thing.

All except for the word.

Good debate. I hope people are not getting upset because of such a debate. To me this is what LGF is all about.

Later.

170
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:07:10pm

re: #166 Blind Frog Belly White

As it was.

171
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:08:06pm

re: #166 Blind Frog Belly White

Whereas I consider the firebombing of Dresden and other such targets to be terrorism.

War crime seems more precise to me for that bit of Allied entertainment.

172
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:08:26pm

re: #166 Blind Frog Belly White

Whereas I consider the firebombing of Dresden and other such targets to be terrorism.

Heh, just saw this. You are aware you are changing a definition. Most people would just use the word war. And in war the firebombing was justified. Just as we justify dropping the bomb.

I guess words are never enough.

Okay…later.

173
whitebeach  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:08:35pm

re: #156 Blind Frog Belly White

I guess I don’t understand the need to label this as terrorism, since terrorism has a definition that doesn’t seem to fit, and there are terms for what this is that do fit, like ‘mass shooting’, or ‘massacre’.

I agree.

To me terrorism is any violent act aimed at scaring people into adopting some political course that the terrorist desires. It is not simply any violent act that kills lots of people. For instance, back in 1957, a guy put him mom on a commercial aircraft after he hid a time bomb in her luggage. He then purchased $37,500 in flight insurance on her life (buying flight insurance at the airport was not uncommon at the time). The bomb brought down the plane, killing all 44 aboard. The guy was caught, convicted, and executed. Would anybody call this bombing an act of terrorism? How about the actions of any number of serial rapists/murderers?

It’s like with the devaluation of the term “weapons of mass destruction” that took place during the W. Bush administration. Once applied solely to weapons (mainly nukes) capable of wiping out whole cities instantly or in a short time, it came to mean anything right down to a hand grenade.

I won’t be discussing this further. My opinion given here won’t change.

174
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:12:05pm

re: #148 GlutenFreeJesus

I should add to this… and boycotting the NFL/sending donations to the NRA.

175
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:12:59pm

re: #168 EPR-radar

There is a distinction between the atrocities perpetrated by Roof, McVeigh, Atta et al. and atrocities perpetrated by Lanza, Whitman et al. that is mostly captured by calling the first category terrorism and the second category something else.

If all mass murders are to be regarded as being ‘terrorism’, then we’d need a way to describe the distinction thus erased. Alternately, but implausibly IMO, one could argue that there is in fact no distinction as stated.

As Richard says in ‘Lion in Winter’, “I never heard a corpse ask how it got so cold.” To the dead, whether they died for someone’s Manifesto, or because someone simply wanted to watch them die is immaterial.

And for the shooter, it seems likely that within the range of people likely to commit this sort of act, some may well be looking for a reason to kill a lot of people, and when they find a reason, they act. Others find reasons like, “Because I have enough guns now” or “Because it’s Tuesday”.

I don’t know. It’s outside the range of what I can understand wanting to do, so I don’t have a feeling for whether there’s a REAL difference between the motivation of Adam Lanza and that of Dylann Roof. Maybe they both just wanted to kill people, and Lanza just didn’t feel the need to have an excuse.

176
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:14:06pm

look i have no dog in this fight
its not even as important as pineapple on pizza

i agree that the word has been co-opted and morphed and its meaning continues to change - and there are multiple meanings going on at once

but being ideologically driven, being politically motivated to do something doesnt make it terrorism

(i believe) killing black people in hopes to start a race war isnt terrorism, though it is definitely a political act.

if it doesnt include the extortional threat to a government for some political change then its murder, mayhem, chaos - not terrorism. no matter how much it terrorized the victims, or traumatized the survivors.

for me it’s political change through threatened or real violence against innocents that is the distinction

one can still terrorize people. that doesnt make it terrorism as such. (yeah, reading it back what a stupid sentence it is. and yet here we are)

dinner awaits. a fundamental thing i can relate to today. broiled salmon, glazed carrots, brown rice. any remaining Vicious and dangerous apple strudel for laters.

177
Interesting Times  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:15:44pm
178
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:16:39pm

re: #172 ObserverArt

Heh, just saw this. You are aware you are changing a definition. Most people would just use the word war. And in war the firebombing was justified. Just as we justify dropping the bomb.

I guess words are never enough.

Okay…later.

Dresden had no military targets. We bombed because we wanted to drive the German population to force the government to surrender. If we’re going to use the term “terrorism” as I’ve defined it, it doesn’t require that it be done by non-state actors.

179
Eclectic Cyborg  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:18:26pm

re: #176 dangerman

look i have no dog in this fight
its not even as important as pineapple on pizza

Oh well now you’ve just taken it to a whole new level. :p

180
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:19:30pm

re: #160 ObserverArt

Klys, how do new words and definitions get entered in a dictionary? Is it not by use? Is language not acceptance of a word and what it means based on that use?

(And I know you may not see this, just adding to the debate using your comment)

My sidewalks aren’t that huge and the apples still have to sit for a bit.

When I wrote my articles for publication, I was very clear to define my terms as I was using them because language matters. I wanted to make sure that what I was saying was understood to mean what I wanted it to mean. I didn’t want someone to read my paper in five or ten years and be confused because the term had changed or evolved, and this is in an area of science where some of that is still happening.

When you are dealing with a word with an established meaning, it gets a hell of a lot fuzzier. This isn’t a “new” word. This is a word with a clear definition. Has it been misused? Yes. I’m not sure the proper response to the misuse is to throw the definition out the window.

I repeat my earlier question: what’s the required body count for a mass murder to meet the new threshold for being an act of terrorism?

181
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:25:23pm

re: #171 EPR-radar

War crime seems more precise to me for that bit of Allied entertainment.

War crime seems to me to cover a larger number of acts than terrorism. Executing POWs, not because you have any political end in mind, but just because you can’t be bothered to deal with them, for example, is a war crime but not terrorism.

In WWII, both sides bombed civilian populations to achieve the political end of having them force their governments to surrender. We considered them to be combatants, because our nations were at war with each other. Similarly, if a group like ISIS or AQ sees itself as being at war with the USA, then they could consider us combatants. And terrorism is a tactic you use in asymmetrical war, though clearly also in symmetrical war.

I suppose I’m trying to remove the inherent value judgement from the word “terrorism”, because it’s literally true that one side’s terrorist is the other side’s freedom fighter.

182
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:29:28pm

re: #180 klys (maker of Silmarils)

My sidewalks aren’t that huge and the apples still have to sit for a bit.

When I wrote my articles for publication, I was very clear to define my terms as I was using them because language matters. I wanted to make sure that what I was saying was understood to mean what I wanted it to mean. I didn’t want someone to read my paper in five or ten years and be confused because the term had changed or evolved, and this is in an area of science where some of that is still happening.

When you are dealing with a word with an established meaning, it gets a hell of a lot fuzzier. This isn’t a “new” word. This is a word with a clear definition. Has it been misused? Yes. I’m not sure the proper response to the misuse is to throw the definition out the window.

I repeat my earlier question: what’s the required body count for a mass murder to meet the new threshold for being an act of terrorism?

This.

And I’d note that precision in language becomes all the more important as we increasingly communicate in written forms.

183
wrenchwench  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:32:33pm

re: #180 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Got a story for you. It doesn’t tie in with definitions, but it does with Tom Petty.

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

184
Kragar  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:34:00pm
185
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:34:30pm

re: #183 wrenchwench

FJTiUGyL2YpeBWMNxXXN4ak/gTPQvo3c2NDHeMLBhO9+/0GJSxj666jugOVbG3uGz+QIqnEdI7VpkDD6G5CL0FzzF6YBd+7mfA+19ICThLkRQkSDZCKjzxsZlYC6yqCwvSLh8uksnH/QOcT4bsWbr6wsAtV9+j3m9oNud7fqWzwRezAIckRLUIvYdbl6LCzy

Apples are almost ready for the next step so I leave you all with a cat in a giant pumpkin because that’s probably what we need today.

186
Eclectic Cyborg  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:35:28pm

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank LGF for being a sanctuary of sanity for me today.

I just don’t think I could handle the bugfuck craziness of the internet without you guys, especially during times like this.

187
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:39:45pm

re: #180 klys (maker of Silmarils)

I repeat my earlier question: what’s the required body count for a mass murder to meet the new threshold for being an act of terrorism?

in my thinking, body count is not relevant. no one has to die for something to be an act of terrorism.

otoh, a single individual kills a lot of people with no notice or warning and then kills himself. i dont see how this can be terrorism. he maybe made a statement sure. but he gets nothing from the government. no action or political change. he didnt even ask it for anything or threaten if he didnt get it.

he lost. it’s over. he gets nothing from the government. he doesnt get credit for “Starting a movement” or “conversation”.

if he’s part of a group who will follow in his tracks and they make themselves known, then maybe….

else hes just a maniac, a mass killer.

if we’re trying to figure out after the fact whether an act was terrorism, it probably wasnt. (again no disrespect to the victims or survivors and how they felt during and after)

because there are markers to the structure. threats, targets and presumably the desire to not go through with the threat if you get what you want

188
Woods Witch  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:39:48pm

re: #186 Eclectic Cyborg

Second that

189
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:39:48pm

(bad headline, interesting story)
Dallas ISD votes 9-0 to rename Confederate school names

Trustees at the Dallas Independent School District voted unanimously on Thursday night to rename four campuses which were originally named after Confederate generals.

Board members did not select new names but rather left that process up to the communities near the schools.

William L. Cabell, Stonewall Jackson, Albert Sidney Johnston, and Robert E. Lee elementary schools will all have new names by next summer.

“History is not going anywhere. History is in the history books,” said Seth Laughlin, father of two students at Stonewall Jackson.

Despite the lightning rod issue, not many people attended the meeting to speak out for or against the name changes.

“History is history. People should grow up and get over it,” said another father opposed to the name changes.

Adolf Hitler was also history but you don’t see us naming schools after him. Maybe some of the RWNJs would like to change that.

190
prairiefire  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:42:02pm

7UThzQI8eSB2J2qvTu5bzBhqbFwa3yt+LnKShh0RzXq90Hxu0CdsKj1Smb/yn9SsoVZwlRNy7sJjCMZLMDeV0W7Ixqg2jDZTQFAJtodc0eE=

191
451_Montag  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:42:03pm

re: #184 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Lawn Darts are illegal because they hurt people. Pretty easy to regulate them. Guns? Not so much

192
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:43:13pm

re: #189 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

I’m sure Fox “News” has a Joseph Goebbels wing in their NY studios. You have to respect the inspiration his work provided for the network.

193
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:44:51pm

re: #191 451_Montag

Lawn Darts are illegal because they hurt people. Pretty easy to regulate them. Guns? Not so much

194
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:50:35pm

re: #187 dangerman

in my thinking, body count is not relevant. no one has to die for something to be an act of terrorism.

Right. Burning a cross on a black family’s lawn = terrorism.

otoh, a single individual kills a lot of people with no notice or warning and then kills himself. i dont see how this can be terrorism. he maybe made a statement sure. but he gets nothing from the government. no action or political change. he didnt even ask it for anything or threaten if he didnt get it.

he lost. it’s over. he gets nothing from the government. he doesnt get credit for “Starting a movement” or “conversation”.

if he’s part of a group who will follow in his tracks and they make themselves known, then maybe….

else hes just a maniac, a mass killer.

You just defined 9/11 as ‘maybe’ terrorism.

if we’re trying to figure out after the fact whether an act was terrorism, it probably wasnt. (again no disrespect to the victims or survivors and how they felt during and after)

Apropos my ‘really inept terrorist’ remark above.

because there are markers to the structure. threats, targets and presumably the desire to not go through with the threat if you get what you want

I’d argue you’re too focused on the individual and not the group or cause. An individual blowing themselves up on a bus to kill others doesn’t get anything, but the GROUP has delivered the message that they’re crazy/committed enough to kill themselves just to kill you, because of whatever it is you’re doing.

Now, mind you, I might be misreading you.

195
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:51:52pm

re: #193 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

You can have my Jarts when you pry them from my cold, dead skull.

196
Eclectic Cyborg  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:52:49pm

My wife just told me about this song. Definitely something I needed today.

Dear Hate (feat. Vince Gill)

197
plansbandc  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:56:05pm

re: #196 Eclectic Cyborg

I love Vince’s voice so much.

198
Decatur Deb  Oct 2, 2017 • 4:59:02pm

What’s in a name? That which we call a massacre by any other name would be as fucked up.

199
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:00:06pm

re: #198 Decatur Deb

What’s in a name? That which we call a massacre by any other name would be as fucked up.

A nose by any other name would smell.

200
Eclectic Cyborg  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:03:05pm

re: #197 plansbandc

I love Vince’s voice so much.

So does she lol.

201
The Major  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:03:31pm

re: #2 Scottish Dragon

O’Reilley is getting every bit of Karma due him…

202
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:04:49pm

Hmmm
Vegas mass-murderer Stephen Paddock was the son of a notorious bank robber:
Vegas gunman’s ‘psychopath’ dad landed on FBI’s most-wanted list

The father of Las Vegas madman Stephen Paddock was a “psychopath” himself — a bank robber who escaped federal prison in the late 1960s and landed on the FBI’s most-wanted list, according to reports.

Paddock’s dad was serial felon Benjamin Hoskins Paddock, according to the Daily Mail and a tweet from NBC.

203
The Major  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:06:45pm

re: #172 ObserverArt

One’s man “Massacre” is another one’s “Campaign”…..

204
Backwoods_Sleuth  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:06:50pm
205
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:07:05pm

Las Vegas shooter was a degenerate gambler

The shooter behind the Las Vegas massacre previously lived in Florida but moved to Las Vegas because he loved gambling, according to his brother.

Eric Paddock said he helped his mass-murderer sibling Stephen move from Viera in central Florida to Nevada in 2015 over his love for video poker, the Orlando Sentinel reported Monday.

Stephen previously owned a home in Heritage Isle, a 55-plus retirement community, and bragged to his neighbors about being a world traveler and “professional gambler by trade.”

206
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:08:17pm

re: #195 Blind Frog Belly White

You can have my Jarts when you pry them from my cold, dead skull.

It’s happened more than once.

207
Backwoods_Sleuth  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:09:25pm
208
Decatur Deb  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:10:07pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

It’s happened more than once.

Teaches the little urchins to be agile.

209
A hollow voice says, Covfefe.  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:11:42pm

So I walk into my building, planning on a nice rest and some coffee before I have to leave for the evening, and instead I’m calling 911 and banging on all the apartment doors in the building.

A small fire in one of the apartments, occupant hospitalized (smoke inhalation), no major damage.

And I have to leave in fifteen minutes, but I’m STILl going to have the coffee.

210
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:11:42pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

It’s happened more than once.

Not always fatally. I heard or read some years ago about people who’d been impaled by Jarts. IN THE HEAD!!! They said they’d never forget the *squinch!* sound it made, like stepping on fresh snow of a certain type.

Makes me shudder just thinking about it.

*squinch*

(shudder)

211
Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:14:09pm

Texas Tech fans hang offensive sign before football game.
The Red Rioters were playing the Oklahoma State Cowboys. Clever, huh? Incidentally, the Brokeback Mountain dudes were shepherds rather than cowboys.

212
Big Beautiful Door  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:15:10pm

re: #204 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Its the Hearing Protection Act; its a healthcare bill!//

213
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:15:26pm

Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences MIT put up a recent presentation by Kerry Emanuel, “What Do Hurricanes Harvey and Irma Portend?”, discussing climate change and hurricanes.

Long, but worth watching.

What Do Hurricanes Harvey and Irma Portend?

214
garzooma  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:17:02pm

re: #205 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

Las Vegas shooter was a degenerate gambler

There was an NBC News story about this as well:

On several occasions, Stephen Paddock gambled more than $10,000 per day — and in some cases more than than $20,000 and $30,000 a day — at Las Vegas casinos, according to an NBC News source who read the suspect’s Multiple Currency Transaction Reports (CTR) and a casino gaming executive.

According to a U.S. statute, a CTR is a Treasury- and IRS-mandated report that casinos have to file when “each transaction in currency involving cash-in and cash-out of more than $10,000 in a gaming day.”

It was not immediately clear if those transactions were losses or wins.

While we should should avoid speculating when there are facts coming in, I’m going to go out on a limb and say he wasn’t winning $10,000 a day when he did this.

215
Decatur Deb  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:17:16pm

re: #212 Big Beautiful Door

Its the Hearing Protection Act; its a healthcare bill!//

Then the GOP should be happy to deep-six it.

216
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:20:23pm

re: #214 garzooma

There was an NBC News story about this as well:

While we should should avoid speculating when there are facts coming in, I’m going to go out on a limb and say he wasn’t winning $10,000 a day when he did this.

I’m thinking nobody goes on a killing spree after WINNING a bundle.

217
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:27:13pm

re: #154 ObserverArt

You did. But so many others say he was not a terrorist. This debate is going both ways. I’d say for political reasons.

I think Roof is a terrorist. He did that not only to kill, but to scare others.

218
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:32:29pm

politico again

219
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:34:27pm

re: #214 garzooma

There was an NBC News story about this as well:

While we should should avoid speculating when there are facts coming in, I’m going to go out on a limb and say he wasn’t winning $10,000 a day when he did this.

If this was a spur of the moment thing, that would mean the arsenal in the hotel room was just normal lifestyle choices of an American Gun Nut.

That doesn’t really improve the fact pattern relative to speculation that the arsenal was smuggled in as preparation for a long-planned attack.

220
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:34:45pm

Lack of competence in the kitchen: a tale in tweets.

221
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:37:37pm

Interesting thread.

222
Mike Lamb  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:40:25pm

re: #189 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

(bad headline, interesting story)
Dallas ISD votes 9-0 to rename Confederate school names

Adolf Hitler was also history but you don’t see us naming schools after him. Maybe some of the RWNJs would like to change that.

Dude is opposed to changing the name of a school from a guy who lost a war 150ish years ago. Who needs to get over it?

223
BigPapa  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:41:19pm

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

224
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:42:54pm
225
Ace Rothstein  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:44:42pm

re: #224 FormerDirtDart

Fucking chicken shit.

226
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:45:07pm

re: #224 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

good

227
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:46:10pm
228
Patricia Kayden  Oct 2, 2017 • 5:46:32pm

re: #5 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Why is he still here? Useless.

229
Jay C  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:00:40pm

PS: 21:00 ET on 2 Oct and still no authoritative confirmation of Tom Petty’s condition.

230
dangerman  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:03:12pm

re: #194 Blind Frog Belly White

i think misreading just a little because i didnt write clearly.
and i’m gonna give this up because honestly i feel like im being too pedantic

wrt to body count i was thinking more along the lines of mass kidnapping with the threat to kill, or blowing up empty buildings - that sort of thing

i would submit cross burning terrorizes the family and is not terrorism per se. it sounds dumber every time i write it. we have to be clear on the difference between how the victims feel and whether political extortion is involved. there’s no demand for political change under threat of violence. there’s just the violence without any demand.

9/11 was terrorism. those in the planes died. there was a network / group that sent them and continued the threat and demand for political change.

“Apropos my ‘really inept terrorist’ remark above.” - im not sure. one can be politically motivated and commit a heinous act because of it. and even want some sort of political action. and still not have it rise to terrorism. i submit Roof fits that category.

still there has to be - in the person or the group of people behind the person if he dies, the desire and ability to not go through with the threat or stop further threatened violence if they get what they want. otherwise it’s just random or deliberate violence

i agree 100% on your bus suicide bomber because there’s a surviving group behind the whole thing willing to continue the threat.

it’s messy because the use of the word has been changing and i think its further muddled by contrasting how the victims feel (terrorized) against the classic use of the word “terrorism”

231
Ace Rothstein  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:04:54pm

Think Trump will ever give this man a phone call?

232
lawhawk  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:06:45pm

Lost in all the news of the day:

233
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:07:16pm
234
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:10:57pm
235
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:11:14pm
236
lawhawk  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:12:59pm

re: #231 Ace Rothstein

No. Next?

This young man is a hero to those he saved, and should be lauded.

In Jewish theology/belief (origins from the Talmud), if you can save a person, you save the world…. Jonathan Smith saved 30 people. That’s 30 worlds that are indebted to him. 30 worlds - families, friends, and acquaintances who will continue to be blessed by their continued lived.

Trump wouldn’t give this man the time of day. Smith’s the wrong skin color and Trump and his supporters would sooner call Smith a gang banger or worse than treat him as a hero. Moreover, Trump would try to expropriate him for Trump’s own purposes.

237
Eventual Carrion  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:13:06pm

re: #208 Decatur Deb

Teaches the little urchins to be agile.

If you can dodge a lawn dart you can dodge A BALL!

238
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:14:19pm

re: #230 dangerman

IMO acts of cross burning in the US have to count as terrorism if anything does. Context matters, and cross burnings are terroristic threats to reinforce white supremacy (a clear political goal), even if none of the KKK members or sympathizers at the scene left a written manifesto.

They didn’t have to. Even Clarence Thomas sees that.

239
Ace Rothstein  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:14:34pm

re: #234 Charles Johnson

240
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:15:13pm

re: #231 Ace Rothstein

Think Trump will ever give this man a phone call?

[Embedded content]

Hopefully he won’t get stuck with a bill. We’ll have to keep up with him to make sure.

241
teleskiguy  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:15:17pm

I fucking apologize for calling the massacre in Vegas ‘terrorism’ downstairs. Seems it’s caused some serious fucking hand wringing around here.

Goddamn it!

I’m very salty today.

242
EPR-radar  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:17:55pm

re: #241 teleskiguy

I fucking apologize for calling the massacre in Vegas ‘terrorism.’ Seems it’s caused some serious fucking hand wringing around here.

Goddamn it!

I’m very salty today.

I wouldn’t call it ‘hand wringing’ or useless. Reasonable people can disagree on subjects like this, and possibly even get to a better understanding through seeing different points of view.

243
Jay C  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:18:03pm

re: #234 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

So can we now tag the “other” Mr. Hoft as “Slow Joe”? To go with his brother “Dim Jim”??

244
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:18:19pm
245
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:18:31pm

Does anyone here know how to watch the UK’s ITV channel? (BBC/Victoria)

I found a vpn subscription, but before I go through & pay up, I’m wondering if it is stupid to do?

I am Tech-illiterate

nordvpn.com

246
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:18:54pm

re: #243 Jay C

So can we now tag the “other” Mr. Hoft as “Slow Joe”? To go with his brother “Dim Jim”??

I like it!

247
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:19:10pm

re: #241 teleskiguy

I fucking apologize for calling the massacre in Vegas ‘terrorism.’ Seems it’s caused some serious fucking hand wringing around here.

Goddamn it!

I’m very salty today.

It’s LGFs normal fight not to change the meaning of a word so that it becomes useless. We’ve had fights over treason, so it’s not surprise that we’d argue about terrorism.

248
teleskiguy  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:19:17pm

re: #242 EPR-radar

I wouldn’t call it ‘hand wringing’ or useless. Reasonable people can disagree on subjects like this, and possibly even get to a better understanding through seeing different points of view.

I thought anybody that called it ‘terrorism’ was embarrassing themselves and completely eroding any meaning of the word. That’s what I’m seeing.

249
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:19:20pm
250
scottslemmons  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:20:13pm

In happier news, Neil Gaiman’s brilliant “A Study in Emerald” is going to be turned into a comic illustrated by the wonderful Rafael Albuquerque.

If you’ve never enjoyed Gaiman’s Sherlock Holmes/Cthulhu short story, here’s a link to the PDF, complete with excellent advertisements for Victorian-era products.

251
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:20:17pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

I’m using VPNs more and more nowadays. Also using Tor browser at times.

It’s not that I am getting paranoid, but I think I just want to escape the reaches of Facebook and Google as much as possible. I’m finding they are tracking me all to well these days, giving me ads for items I browse at Amazon, or trying to lead me to websites related to those I visit, etc.

252
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:21:12pm

Wait…
Tom Petty isn’t dead now?

253
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:21:24pm

Facebook and Google both actually apologized for promoting that evil shit, amazingly enough.

But we’ll see if they actually do something to stop it from happening again.

254
Belafon  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:21:35pm

re: #249 goddamnedfrank

We’re all discovering what machine learning groups are starting to figure out: An algorithm can become biased based on its input, and twitter, google, and facebook’s neural networks have been fed heavy diets of racism.

255
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:01pm

re: #251 freetoken

I’m using VPNs more and more nowadays. Also using Tor browser at times.

It’s not that I am getting paranoid, but I think I just want to escape the reaches of Facebook and Google as much as possible. I’m finding they are tracking me all to well these days, giving me ads for items I browse at Amazon, or trying to lead me to websites related to those I visit, etc.

But I guess this is using a VPN in the UK to get the channel?

I’m just trying to watch a show that I started on bootleg youtube, but after ep 3, the hammer came down.

256
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:04pm

re: #249 goddamnedfrank

I believe the Facebook news feeds one based on some fancy algorithm. I pretty much now get news suggestions from websites I haven’t tried to banish from my Google News feed.

257
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:22pm

11 bucks

258
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:23pm
259
Ace Rothstein  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:45pm

re: #252 FormerDirtDart

Wait…
Tom Petty isn’t dead now?

Won’t back down.

260
ObserverArt  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:22:48pm

re: #241 teleskiguy

I fucking apologize for calling the massacre in Vegas ‘terrorism’ downstairs. Seems it’s caused some serious fucking hand wringing around here.

Goddamn it!

I’m very salty today.

You are not alone. Someone as well known as Mark Kelly, Gabby Gifford’s husband, astronaut and to some degree political commenter, said it was domestic terrorism. And as you probably have seen, a couple good articles are linked discussing using the word for things like Las Vegas last night.

261
lawhawk  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:24:14pm

re: #241 teleskiguy

You wouldn’t be wrong:

Nevada Revised Statutes do consider this an act of terrorism:

Universal Citation: NV Rev Stat § 202.4415 (2015)
1. “Act of terrorism” means any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to:

(a) Cause great bodily harm or death to the general population; or

(b) Cause substantial destruction, contamination or impairment of:

(1) Any building or infrastructure, communications, transportation, utilities or services; or

(2) Any natural resource or the environment.

2. As used in this section, “coercion” does not include an act of civil disobedience.

(Added to NRS by 2003, 2947)

This is about as expansive a definition of terrorism as one could possibly find, and yet that’s the law in Nevada. It doesn’t go to intent or purpose to affect political ends. It’s merely a crime to engage in acts of violence that would cause death to the general population.

You’ll also note that this law was enacted in 2003 in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks so they decided to make this as expansive as possible. That was on purpose - to wrap in as many different potential acts as criminal, even if they don’t meet the traditional definition of terrorism (or even the federal law definition).

262
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:24:19pm

re: #255 Stanley Sea

So you want to be a pirate, eh matey?

Anyway, I don’t know how restrictive ITV is when it comes to access.

b1gBT0Rsa/MgX5/aNa9Q02eBilOy9f1WpOMOpOSo2MwpycwXC8wYQX3XsXpL4q/Wzc1WQovPy+3faizdVOOiaOi0ayOTGZ1FMQsTwkCM/e4BLz99QRw1fDojxZVmcvcpmpVT/nnziJBWYf/td9dYJc7HjDrZjSrr1ufeCVPToP7ZIsAmvqfEckzpo3ENLiHSiy3LFigxTRsAIXirWWpqyMxUZQdNE0wsChD9fLPxES1A6iTUHMd/mZJQPGHHcw0CsioygSOzRghklRb64YJ+/jatc1Xz3WGKrEXotBfJpevaqyGtGp0hEkS122ExoDir

263
Interesting Times  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:25:16pm
264
Charles Johnson  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:25:42pm

Tom Petty hasn’t died, but he was discovered in full cardiac arrest and has been taken off life support, and he reportedly has no brain activity. He’s not expected to live more than a day or two.

And I fucking hate having to relay these facts. But there it is.

265
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:26:38pm

re: #262 freetoken

So you want to be a pirate, eh matey?

Anyway, I don’t know how restrictive ITV is when it comes to access.

[Embedded content]

mzi2d0lylXu++pBILNoam/Q9UWdgEdoaU+LzJoZPPfAdBljKuVNWA0Vrjdutph6G6Sr0tIVrRLzhcgYSOh0/nZXmSNLrKnw6cRGJg3sDp4dEQjHTRjU5sS465EWuyNR9ZLG5XByQEPgxJwFASUs/kZWXJebaHh6JeDlImgNq3BFcJbUEwSvFtCgGirO475/HbtoRVuFa/d7SqCKC5paLdAi2rgJBEchvZzsAQWeSKL9W/0KXST6drA==

266
freetoken  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:26:43pm

re: #255 Stanley Sea

qmGDtmKjnOwP4svOsgSbUUEarPFJHQidTXJO8Xu7Y7G9L4RvhfWW4rM9hdanoyvcVtLC9eBpf44DuJiosMlgQuyEOOYw5f4Zg/qVUYwmWA8keq9MBZ1/w2AGElXKIRiJiipTf27FEU6JIhpweEB3x5gFc16J1Mkicy1kDgK2m/Vk9e0KYbR3jJX+cYfEKqKwbYSat76KL05dv8TPKvSnfD1ekL3amPPEwD6DRFq32UxDgPnkxCvAUlYlY5Y6bech

267
teleskiguy  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:27:13pm
268
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:28:22pm

re: #266 freetoken

[Embedded content]

TLBH0EDuzu9LkKnDyhbya+uym864eeSGMt1B4bNMOWURQqUF8Jp1V+w3Tr5A/g9aTOQ1uAoXdGXhCzLGZZpCOvZIWnuj6VnEGTy03X0u0cTL0bXE+Ld0QL2Ph8wdWh3OZZa4AsVn4ynS05+hCnub0y/bguIhbUZEuFBvL7A4drqs3pWrNq9NXfgbMJH0BAB+1HjlEG15k03SVwpcryYMaUheiZ7mLUAeZcG5KtAuTiluHjGP7cJU0MPmfbJijt5t3zX+FyLwsfJLg9coe1YGQQ==

269
goddamnedfrank  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:28:39pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

Facebook and Google both actually apologized for promoting that evil shit, amazingly enough.

But we’ll see if they actually do something to stop it from happening again.

They probably apologized because their lawyers explained the concept of libel per se to them. I’m no lawyer but as far as I’m aware the safe harbor provision of the DMCA only applies to copyright infringement, not gross defamation. By thoughtlessly signal boosting such reckless articles they could arguable be putting their corporate tits in a wringer, and even if not they’ve got to see how bad this is in terms of PR.

270
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:29:09pm
271
lawhawk  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:31:46pm

re: #270 FormerDirtDart

272
VegasGolfer  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:32:47pm

re: #241 teleskiguy

Not only on here , but in the media. Can you imagine if the shooter was hispanic?
Trump would be losing his mind. A black, Muslim shooter? We would be talking war on some country in the middle east, and kkk, racist bigots in the south would start lynching black people.
I have been watching tv most of the day, and have hardly seen anybody call this white shooter a domestic terroist.

273
FormerDirtDart  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:34:35pm
274
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:34:41pm

Just got an update from my friend with the 2 degree separation from someone killed last night.

54 yo man was with his daughters & their boyfriends.

Daughter’s boyfriend was also killed.

:((((((

Shakes me back from my 1st world Victoria problem.

275
Skip Intro  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:40:43pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

Does anyone here know how to watch the UK’s ITV channel? (BBC/Victoria)

I found a vpn subscription, but before I go through & pay up, I’m wondering if it is stupid to do?

I am Tech-illiterate

nordvpn.com

I can’t get it to recognize I have a trial subscription. Every time I log on it takes me to the subscription page, so I haven’t been able to use it. I cancelled.

276
teleskiguy  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:40:52pm
277
Blind Frog Belly White  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:42:28pm

re: #258 FormerDirtDart

[Embedded content]

Just say “Dance, N****r, Dance!”

Come on, Joe. Say it. You know you want to say it.

278
Woods Witch  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:43:47pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

ITV and BBC are both behind paywall. Even in the UK you can’t access them online with a subscription.

Like Downton Abbey we’ll have to wait for PBS to catch up

279
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:48:51pm

re: #275 Skip Intro

I can’t get it to recognize I have a trial subscription. Every time I log on it takes me to the subscription page, so I haven’t been able to use it. I cancelled.

TY

280
Stanley Sea  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:49:37pm

re: #278 Woods Witch

TY!

281
Eventual Carrion  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:54:23pm

re: #254 Belafon

We’re all discovering what machine learning groups are starting to figure out: An algorithm can become biased based on its input, and twitter, google, and facebook’s neural networks have been fed heavy diets of racism.

Well, artificial intelligence is what these RWNJ are anyway. Not real intelligence, that’s for sure.

282
majii  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:56:34pm

re: #114 ObserverArt

“No one knew this guy, not even his family.”

Stephen Paddock lived in Nevada. The brother and some other family members live in Florida. His brother said that SP had lived in Florida at one time. He also said that they didn’t maintain close contact with each other, but Stephen Paddock would send their mom cookies from time to time, so I agree: His family members didn’t really know him.

283
Barefoot Grin  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:57:27pm

re: #218 Stanley Sea

politico again

[Embedded content]

Maybe his female alter-ego? The one registered to vote in NY?

284
GlutenFreeJesus  Oct 2, 2017 • 6:58:15pm

re: #211 Shiplord Kirel, live from behind wingnut lines

Bet they didn’t stand during the “national anthem” either.

285
BlueSpotinAL  Oct 2, 2017 • 7:00:16pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

CvDO2lWWI92SAlVH/eOMSt56EDmkL9To0ch3Q+5TELD1DoT/vnl2JHD/3lp/rw96BolqiYLRCWfHWRYmR0XVOEFlzbA96+N9KbCooMaEUzQcRbOSMYefrtKH2tw/4rjAOS1logE6xafZPKoJPtyGwJfK7w9yMvvpCQwg/plBYLKB9xn4um4HrQ==


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The Big Moon - Happy New Year (Official Video) Get the debut album ‘Love In The 4th Dimension’ on signed CD & Vinyl now: thebigmoon.lnk.toDiscover more on Spotify: po.st Directed by India LeeProduced by Louise Latimer / India Lee Choreographed by Cicely Cotton Cinematographer: Joe Douglas Art Director: ...
Thanos
2 days, 17 hours ago
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MGMT - When You Die Get "When You Die" now: smarturl.it Directors: Mike Burakoff & Hallie Cooper-NovackVFX Supervisor: Jamie DutcherStarring: Alex Karpovsky & Lucy KaminskyProducers: Lucia Pier & Jamie DutcherExecutive Producers: Adam Kurland & Matt Wyatt DP: Steven BreckonEditor: Max GoldblattLogo Design: Benjy BrookeProduction ...
Thanos
3 days, 6 hours ago
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Noah Kahan - Hurt Somebody Hurt Somebody (Official Video)Song Available Here: lnk.to See all Noah Kahan tour dates at: noahkahan.com Follow Noah Kahan:Facebook: facebook.com Instagram: instagram.com Twitter: @noahkahan Spotify: republic.lnk.to SoundCloud: SoundCloud Directed by Chris GriederProduced by Antonio FloresFor Aqsent Music video by Noah ...
Thanos
3 days, 6 hours ago
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HOFFMAN FILES Instant “Axis” - All Hitler, All the Time.blog.timesunion.com When I was 14 or so, my parents were nice enough to take me on a trip to California.  The last stop in our journey was San Francisco.  My parents had been there once before and were quite fond ...
rhoffman
4 days, 4 hours ago
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