The Talk Is Starting Again: Trump Was Angry and ‘Unglued’ When He Started a Trade War, Officials Say

Politics • Views: 32,222

Iframe

So here we are again, with the media discussing Trump’s fragile ego and unhinged petulant behavior: Trump was angry and ‘unglued’ when he started a trade war, officials say.

According to two officials, Trump’s decision to launch a potential trade war was born out of anger at other simmering issues and the result of a broken internal process that has failed to deliver him consensus views that represent the best advice of his team.

On Wednesday evening, the president became “unglued,” in the words of one official familiar with the president’s state of mind.

A trifecta of events had set him off in a way that two officials said they had not seen before: Hope Hicks’ testimony to lawmakers investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, conduct by his embattled attorney general and the treatment of his son-in-law by his chief of staff.

Trump, the two officials said, was angry and gunning for a fight, and he chose a trade war, spurred on by Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross and Peter Navarro, the White House director for trade — and against longstanding advice from his economic chair Gary Cohn and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin.

Let’s hope he never realizes it’s just as easy to start a real war.

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382 comments
1
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:13:16pm
2
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:16:55pm

CL’ed on the last thread. That’s what I get for posting on a thread over 700 comments long….

For your listening and dancing pleasure, reposted from downstairs….

It’s like I said a while back - he has a really, really simpleminded view of the world. It was obvious in his announcement speech back in 2015, when he said,

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

“When Mexico sends its people”. Think about that. He sees ‘Mexico’ as a unit. Mexican government, Mexican people, Mexican companies, Mexican branches of American companies, Mexican drug cartels - it’s all one thing.

People immigrating from Mexico are CHOSEN BY Mexico to come here.

The trade deficit with Mexico is sitting in Mexico’s bank account, and they should use that to pay us for the Wall.

Mexico sends drugs here.

Any man who thinks in terms that simplistic will never grasp that the richest country has trade deficits because we’re the ones who have the money to buy everyone else’s shit.

But don’t worry. He’ll fix that. We won’t be the richest country, if he keeps up like this.

3
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:30:43pm

Holy shit! I killed a new thread!

4
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:30:52pm
5
calochortus  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:31:49pm

re: #4 MsJ

[Embedded content]

Did I miss something? I thought we already had seen a considerable exodus.

6
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:32:22pm

re: #3 Blind Frog Belly White

Holy shit! I killed a new thread!

Some seem to think they need to stay downstairs until they hit 900.

7
gocart mozart  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:33:12pm

re: #3 Blind Frog Belly White

“You bastard”! - Old Jewish Guy from The Simpsons

8
darthstar  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:33:38pm

And that’s just his family talking.

9
darthstar  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:35:27pm

re: #4 MsJ

I won’t be happy until I see Sarah Huckabee Sanders carrying a mop and Trump’s pee-stained sheets and dropping them in the corner of the briefing room before telling the press corps that everything’s going smoothly.

10
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:36:13pm
11
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:36:32pm

re: #8 darthstar

And that’s just his family talking.

[Embedded content]

He should seek asylum. In an asylum.

12
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:37:23pm
13
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:37:34pm

re: #5 calochortus

Did I miss something? I thought we already had seen a considerable exodus.

I guess the remaining swamp monsters don’t want to screw up their future prospects.

Karma, motherfuckers.

14
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:38:35pm

re: #9 darthstar

I won’t be happy until I see Sarah Huckabee Sanders carrying a mop and Trump’s pee-stained sheets and dropping them in the corner of the briefing room before telling the press corps that everything’s going smoothly.

I’d prefer to set her carrying that bucket in an orange jumpsuit.

15
calochortus  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:38:47pm

re: #13 MsJ

I guess the remaining swamp monsters don’t want to screw up their future prospects.

Karma, motherfuckers.

Let’s drain that swamp.

16
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:39:42pm

re: #12 JordanRules

That’s a handy floor duster.

17
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:39:49pm

a couple of headlines

- the one at the top of the thread
- Mueller asking if Trump knew about hacked Democratic emails before release
- Trump Confidant Dumped Steel-Related Stock
- Georgia Republicans Escalate Feud with Delta Airlines
- Hatch Calls Obamacare Backers ‘Dumbass People’
- FBI counterintel investigating Ivanka Trump business deal

my personal favorite
- Trump Announces Tariffs, Market Responds by Tanking

just a typical day around here. nothing to see.

and there is good news:

A Third Poll Shows Generic House Democrat Leading by 15 Points

18
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:40:12pm
19
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:40:53pm

re: #5 calochortus

Did I miss something? I thought we already had seen a considerable exodus.

mid level staff
you know, the ones yesterday lamenting the job market is dried up and no one would hire them (look in the mirror - you’re toxic)

20
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:42:17pm

re: #17 dangerman

You forgot

21
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:42:22pm

re: #12 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

And that floor keeps such a nice shine.

22
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:42:47pm

re: #8 darthstar

And that’s just his family talking.

Trump is being described as unhinged, isolated, depressed, and losing his mind.

you wanted this. you asked for it. no one forced you.
you bragged about it

suck it up and do the effin job, or get the eff out

23
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:43:55pm

re: #22 dangerman

you wanted this. you asked for it. no one forced you.
you bragged about it

suck it up and do the effin job, or get the eff out

Hm would we take a resign now and walk away deal? I’d say not.

24
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:44:12pm

re: #16 MsJ

That’s a handy floor duster.

Gotta be careful using it close to furniture legs, of course.

25
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:47:19pm

Wait, is this why Trump came unglued?

bloomberg.com

“Trump Swaps His Beloved Burgers for Salads and Soups in New Diet”

26
goddamnedfrank  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:47:48pm
27
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:47:53pm

re: #20 MsJ

You forgot

[Embedded content]

yeah i posted that in the last thread and forgot. so much happens so fast!

that’s the link though isnt it?

are policy decisions being made to benefit the family?

we are way past emoluments here

28
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:49:57pm

re: #10 MsJ

[Embedded content]

This is bugnuts and batshit crazy.
We’re just watching the treason daily. It’s nuts.

I hope this story breaks something. Something needs to happen fast. It feels like the leaks and reporting around him is fast and furious. Something needs to break!

29
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:50:24pm

re: #23 Unshaken Defiance

Hm would we take a resign now and walk away deal? I’d say not.

how do you stop a guy from quitting?

even if he did, that wouldnt end muellers work
and im sure there’s alreadya big file on the next guy in line who isnt squeaky clean himself

30
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:50:56pm
31
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:50:58pm

re: #25 Barefoot Grin

Wait, is this why Trump came unglued?

bloomberg.com

“Trump Swaps His Beloved Burgers for Salads and Soups in New Diet”

but the doctor said he was in great health, not obese

32
darthstar  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:52:06pm

I’m just worried we’re going to find out next week that Ivanka had her dad declared unfit and got legal guardianship over him…and now she’s the President of the US. Republicans would fall all over themselves to take that trade.

33
Aucun pays pour les vieux ennemis  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:52:11pm

re: #31 dangerman

but the doctor said he was in great health, not obese

You’re the obese.

34
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:53:57pm

Always on his mind.

35
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:54:42pm

re: #32 darthstar

I’m just worried we’re going to find out next week that Ivanka had her dad declared unfit and got legal guardianship over him…and now she’s the President of the US. Republicans would fall all over themselves to take that trade.

unless he’s signed some secret exec order, im not sure it works like that

(and to be clear, given the times, im not sure)

36
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:56:18pm

re: #28 JordanRules

This is bugnuts and batshit crazy.
We’re just watching the treason daily. It’s nuts.

I hope this story breaks something. Something needs to happen fast. It feels like the leaks and reporting around him is fast and furious. Something needs to break!

That’s why MI and WI won’t hold special elections. They know those GOP seats are gone.

Send are genetically up 15%.

I honestly do not know why the GOP is going down with the RFS Drumpf.

37
darthstar  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:56:42pm
38
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:56:47pm

If only John hadn’t started up with Yoko…..

39
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:56:48pm

re: #34 JordanRules

Always on his mind.

Someone asked #Putin today: what’s the one historical event in #Russia you would want to change?
He replied immediately: the break up of the Soviet Union

YouTube

40
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:57:47pm

re: #36 MsJ

That’s why MI and WI won’t hold special elections. They know those GOP seats are gone.

Send are genetically up 15%.

I honestly do not know why the GOP is going down with the RFS Drumpf.

extreme short term thinking
they’re actually not very smart

41
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:59:14pm

re: #37 darthstar

[BREAKING: A Nebraska company awarded the first border wall project under Trump is owned by a firm accused of shady billing.]

Hey, they need the shade down there. Have you ever built a wall when it’s sunny and over 100 degrees?

42
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:59:30pm

re: #38 Blind Frog Belly White

[Embedded content]

If only John hadn’t started up with Yoko…..

“Those Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia’s always on my miiiiiiind”

43
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 2:59:50pm

I’m not buying a blue Governorship in GA yet, but I’m walking around the store taking a look and enjoying things.

44
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:00:00pm

BTW Putin has a bit of bullshit showman in him too. Just like his sub Donnie. Did you see the doomsday show he put on. Well…

U.S. Has Been Secretly Watching Russia’s Nuclear-Powered Cruise Missiles Crash and Burn
But shortly after Putin’s address, CNN, in a story citing an anonymous U.S. government official, cast doubt on the possibility that this weapon was anywhere near operational. That individual added that the “United States had observed a small number of Russian tests of its nuclear-powered cruise missile and seen them all crash.”

If you find on of the crashed missiles, presume Fukashima like conditions at the site.

45
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:02:26pm

re: #29 dangerman

how do you stop a guy from quitting?

even if he did, that wouldnt end muellers work
and im sure there’s alreadya big file on the next guy in line who isnt squeaky clean himself

What i meant was a walkaway deal, he walks away now and the investigation /AG never recommend prosecution. Quid pro quo.

46
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:03:43pm

re: #45 Unshaken Defiance

What i meant was a walkaway deal, he walks away now and the investigation /AG never recommend prosecution. Quid pro quo.

Basically the Nixon deal. It’s acceptable, the price has to be Pence out in the street.

47
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:04:26pm

re: #45 Unshaken Defiance

What i meant was a walkaway deal, he walks away now and the investigation /AG never recommend prosecution. Quid pro quo.

I want damages. Take all his money and offer health care to all earthlings.

48
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:04:39pm

re: #38 Blind Frog Belly White

Someone asked #Putin today: what’s the one historical event in #Russia you would want to change?
He replied immediately: the break up of the Soviet Union

Greenwald is going to accuse Putin of McCarthyism.

49
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:06:27pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

I want damages. Take all his money and offer health care to all earthlings.

Just get him off to some remote island paradise. Billionaires do not eat Federal mac n’ cheese.

50
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:07:56pm

re: #45 Unshaken Defiance

What i meant was a walkaway deal, he walks away now and the investigation /AG never recommend prosecution. Quid pro quo.

ah

i suppose it might be possible for him to make a deal with mueller for himself, maybe his family

though muellers job is to investigate and report. he’s not necessarily building a case to facilitate the yams exit by impeachment, resignation or some other way. so why would he ‘negotiate’?

plus i dont think NY or VA would agree to be part of that

51
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:07:58pm

I understand a number of truck were tipped over on the Tappan Zee bridge too.

52
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:08:48pm

re: #51 FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀

Ahhh, too close!

53
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:09:56pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Basically the Nixon deal. It’s acceptable, the price has to be Pence out in the street.

nixon walked and 50 people went to jail

donnie’s got to protect himself and his involved family members - it’s a much bigger ask

54
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:10:06pm

re: #49 Decatur Deb

That works well since he’s not a billionaire. He’s hoping this new gig will help really get him there.

55
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:11:02pm

re: #43 JordanRules

I’m not buying a blue Governorship in GA yet, but I’m walking around the store taking a look and enjoying things.

[Embedded content]

That’s awesome. I think I’ve seen Stacey’s name in some FB posts by my old college roommate who is now executive director of a non-profit working on developing the Atlanta westside for the people who already live there (and hopefully not for gentrification).

56
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:15:27pm

im off to conjure up some parmesan chicken and angel hair with melted onions

and wine
its friday and we’re all still here

57
Stanley Sea  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:16:47pm
58
calochortus  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:17:28pm

re: #56 dangerman

im off to conjure up some parmesan chicken and angel hair with melted onions

and wine
its friday and we’re all still here

We’re having friends over this evening. Sear-roasted chicken with orange-tarragon sauce, rice and roasted asparagus. And wine. Always wine.

59
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:18:38pm

re: #16 MsJ

That’s a handy floor duster.

And it comes right back to you to clean another area. Spray a little Endust on there and you have yourself a Swiftpurr Duster.

60
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:20:03pm

re: #49 Decatur Deb

… Billionaires do not eat Federal mac n’ cheese.

They haven’t yet. That’s no reason there couldn’t be a first.

I’m a dreamer.

61
allegro  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:23:13pm

re: #60 wrenchwench

They haven’t yet. That’s no reason there couldn’t be a first.

I’m a dreamer.

Maybe second. Martha Stewart?

62
bill d. (b.d.)  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:23:37pm
63
Stanley Sea  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:24:47pm

re: #62 bill d. (b.d.)

[Embedded content]

Wilbur is not long for this admin once the yam sees this.

64
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:26:29pm

re: #61 allegro

Maybe second. Martha Stewart?

Wiki says she’s a mere millionaire.

65
Dave In Austin  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:27:17pm
66
allegro  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:27:49pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Wiki says she’s a mere millionaire.

Oh.

67
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:30:03pm

re: #51 FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀

I understand a number of truck were tipped over on the Tappan Zee bridge too.

Leaving Metro Detroit yesterday was a mess, let me tell ya.

68
bill d. (b.d.)  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:32:51pm

re: #63 Stanley Sea

Wilbur is not long for this admin once the yam sees this.

It’s been a pretty quiet Friday for this White House….so far…

69
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:35:29pm

re: #36 MsJ

That’s why MI and WI won’t hold special elections. They know those GOP seats are gone.

Send are genetically up 15%.

I honestly do not know why the GOP is going down with the RFS Drumpf.

Shhhh. Don’t let on. It’s better they eat their own without anyone interfering. It’s more humane this way.

70
Jay C  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:35:32pm

re: #43 JordanRules

I’m not buying a blue Governorship in GA yet, but I’m walking around the store taking a look and enjoying things.

[Embedded content]

Yeah, nothing guaranteed yet: but I, also, am wondering if a campaign for a Democratic Governor of Georgia might not be able to get some mileage out of a pitch like: “The current Administration is willing to risk damaging the whole State’s economy to satisfy the PR demands of ONE particular lobby? One who only got 13 discounts TOTAL?”

I’m sure, that like most “red” states, Georgia has enough gun-obsessive RW assholes who WILL care about perceived slight s to the NRA, but still…..

71
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:36:08pm

I think misogynist name-calling as terrible, too. But can I still call Ari a “dickhead”?

72
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:37:20pm

re: #37 darthstar

Sean McCabe
@darthstar99
At least they’re building the wall in fucking Nebraska.

…

5:56 PM - Mar 2, 2018

Probably around anymouses’ house.

73
Romantic Heretic  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:40:02pm

re: #34 JordanRules

Someone asked #Putin today: what’s the one historical event in #Russia you would want to change?
He replied immediately: the break up of the Soviet Union

Then why, Czar Vlad I, are you implementing exactly the same policies that killed the USSR?

74
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:40:09pm

re: #71 Barefoot Grin

I think misogynist name-calling as terrible, too. But can I still call Ari a “dickhead”?

[Embedded content]

The term ‘whore’ need not be genderized. ‘Dickhead’, on the other hand….

75
goddamnedfrank  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:40:17pm
76
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:41:21pm

re: #71 Barefoot Grin

I think misogynist name-calling as terrible, too. But can I still call Ari a “dickhead”?

[Embedded content]

Misogynist namecalling is terrible. But I don’t think the “Lib’rul Media” would be full of stories about random nobodies on Twitter saying shitty things to liberal women, because Twitter is full of random nobodie saying shitty things to liberal women all the goddam time.

77
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:41:54pm

re: #43 JordanRules

I’m not buying a blue Governorship in GA yet, but I’m walking around the store taking a look and enjoying things.

[Embedded content]

Wouldn’t that be nice. A Black Woman Governor in Georgia.

I so hope to see that.

78
Romantic Heretic  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:42:17pm

re: #36 MsJ

I honestly do not know why the GOP is going down with the RFS Drumpf.

Because backing away from the yam would be admitting that everything they’ve done since the start of the Reagan Administration has been a lousy idea.

Better the country burns so there will be no one to remember who destroyed the GOP.

79
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:43:52pm

re: #49 Decatur Deb

Just get him off to some remote island paradise. Billionaires do not eat Federal mac n’ cheese.

This one might. Look at the rest of his fav foods.

80
Colère Tueur de Lapin  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:46:15pm

re: #49 Decatur Deb

Just get him off to some remote island paradise. Billionaires do not eat Federal mac n’ cheese.

(dis)Able was I ere I saw Elba.

He’s no Napoleon. Doesn’t deserve it.

81
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:46:51pm

re: #76 Blind Frog Belly White

Misogynist namecalling is terrible. But I don’t think the “Lib’rul Media” would be full of stories about random nobodies on Twitter saying shitty things to liberal women, because Twitter is full of random nobodie saying shitty things to liberal women all the goddam time.

The other thing? The Right LIVES FOR THIS SHIT! They crow about how much what they said or did upset the ‘libtards’. Her job for the NRA is to say controversial shit that pisses everyone off.

82
Ace-o-aces  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:47:03pm
83
Ace-o-aces  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:48:30pm

All together now:

84
allegro  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:49:04pm

Netflix. Frankenstein Chronicles. Sean Bean. How did I not know about this until now?

85
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:49:31pm

re: #82 Ace-o-aces

Then, make up a bullshit story about a drug deal gone wrong, and tie a bunch of ‘suspicous’ traffic accidents and ‘unexplained’ heart attacks in old, obese people to it by tenuous threads.

86
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:51:25pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Basically the Nixon deal. It’s acceptable, the price has to be Pence out in the street.

No. I disagree. I wouldn’t take that.

There needs to be consequences. Full. Stop.

The next one who does this could be smarter and then we’ll all be in a world of hurt.

Consequences. Property confiscation. Jail time. No ifs, ands or buts.

87
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:54:29pm

The center will not hold! We are cursed with a powerful beast.

88
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:55:39pm

re: #58 calochortus

We’re having friends over this evening. Sear-roasted chicken with orange-tarragon sauce, rice and roasted asparagus. And wine. Always wine.

On tonight’s menu: chateaubriand with caramelized onions and sautéed mushrooms.

89
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:56:22pm

Wilbur Ross: “I just happened to be in my favorite 7-11 to pick up a new pair of velvet slippers….”

90
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 3:56:52pm

I sell (and wear) Giro helmets. I just checked my email.

March 2, 2018

Dear Authorized Dealer:

As you may know, in the wake of the recent tragic shooting at a Florida school, there have been calls on social media for a boycott of Giro, Bell, Blackburn, Copilot, Raskullz, and Krash products because of their association with Vista Outdoor, a company that also owns separate businesses in the shooting sports industry. A major concern for the boycott centers around the incorrect assumption that the purchase of any of our products may support a cause that does not fit the mission/values of our brands. That is not the case. Our brands fall within the Outdoor Products segment of our company, which operates separately from Vista Outdoor’s Shooting Sports segment. Since their inception (Bell - 1954, Giro - 1985, Blackburn - 1974, Copilot - 2000, Raskullz/Krash - 2010) these brands have each maintained their focus and reputations for innovation and high quality in support of users of our products.

We recognize, support and respect the right of every individual to decide for themselves what brands they will purchase based on whatever criteria they believe are important. Throughout their history, our brands have contributed to enjoyment and personal safety in powersports, cycling and snow sports and our focus remains on innovating and developing high quality product in support of these user communities.

This is a complex scenario and we expect you have many questions. We continue to encourage you to reach out directly to us to schedule a time to speak, via your local rep, so that we may provide additional information specific to you and your market.

Thank you for your support!

” separate businesses” Separate.

91
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:00:37pm

re: #78 Romantic Heretic

Because backing away from the yam would be admitting that everything they’ve done since the start of the Reagan Administration has been a lousy idea.

Better the country burns so there will be no one to remember who destroyed the GOP.

I don’t buy that. They could easily burn him. Like to the ground. And walk away semi-unscathed. They could say he’s not conservative and use his own words against him. I honestly don’t get it.

But I pretty much done get them anytime. Ever.

92
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:02:35pm

re: #60 wrenchwench

They haven’t yet. That’s no reason there couldn’t be a first.

I’m a dreamer.

You’re not the only one.

93
Barefoot Grin  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:03:49pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

I sell (and wear) Giro helmets. I just checked my email.

” separate businesses” Separate.

Tough. I’ve had two major crashes while cycling. A Giro helmet saved my noggin when I hit a rock at about 25 mph one morning on a lonely road. I went right over the handlebars onto my head and only lost a small amount of face near my upper cheek/eye socket. On the first one I was much younger and wasn’t wearing a helmet when a car plowed through me on a country road. Took a few IQ points into her windshield. That’s the one that made me ruggedly handsome and buy a helmet.

94
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:10:44pm

3tNKOjy0N+SIzzoCnYNPDBmBEZpMAhsX1LrG+ZuJ4jpyBYEDoJ6OGChiLYFwO9rAJbpAywthAV3Wez5WW7Eo/9Kzr1OpasAjtki8iDWkMckJ6fQKT2QRZ0PNbkP7nxIgQbbavFe3y3qWkLaHMJSoXQLT56YzVmWzNCT5uj4+lirmvThxNog6JVQ9TAAgrJOKm2KQ6E1qyjVVKHVGASYLRB02vBdCrIWWIosDCDIUmB8qVPS9Pp5SIQXzNDDHaZRMHZjzWg50FpnNEdE5qWixpKtqQqYVSoS0CNjESq7T/FbtAok2D8TJqxY4L94LfULOulLqRycWRD5SeOSwL8CdHw==

95
Varek Raith  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:12:04pm

re: #94 prairiefire

/HmQf81RsEyKq14JDYkcRQ==

96
gocart mozart  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:16:56pm
97
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:20:28pm

re: #86 MsJ

No. I disagree. I wouldn’t take that.

There needs to be consequences. Full. Stop.

The next one who does this could be smarter and then we’ll all be in a world of hurt.

Consequences. Property confiscation. Jail time. No ifs, ands or buts.

It would complete our transformation into a banana republic.

Leave them to the comedians.

98
William Lewis  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:23:37pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

It would complete our transformation into a banana republic.

Leave them to the comedians.

In the end, Ford was right.

99
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:24:59pm

re: #96 gocart mozart

[Embedded content]

Oh look Donny is in a ménage à trois.

WTF? No, wait, I don’t really want to know. It’s Trump.

100
sagehen  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:26:43pm

re: #36 MsJ

I honestly do not know why the GOP is going down with the RFS Drumpf.

Because when Russia hacked and leaked the DNC e-mails… they hacked and retained the RNC e-mails. Which may or may not be released at a time of their choosing. If, y’know, circumstances.

101
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:27:36pm

re: #96 gocart mozart

In this reboot of Grace and Frankie, Don and Mike finally live their truth as a couple madly in love while Mother and Melon become the odd couple best friends.

102
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:29:33pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

It would complete our transformation into a banana republic.

Leave them to the comedians.

Really? You think accountability would make us a banana republic?

103
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:31:07pm

re: #100 sagehen

Because when Russia hacked and leaked the DNC e-mails… they hacked and retained the RNC e-mails. Which may or may not be released at a time of their choosing. If, y’know, circumstances.

Ok. THAT makes sense. I buy that.

104
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:31:58pm

re: #100 sagehen

Because when Russia hacked and leaked the DNC e-mails… they hacked and retained the RNC e-mails. Which may or may not be released at a time of their choosing. If, y’know, circumstances.

That, and they may have actual receipts.

Recorded money transactions caught in pictures with lines and arrows, letters and descriptions. RNC…NRA.

A nice packet dropped right to the CIA. Anonymous of course.

105
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:33:10pm
106
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:35:28pm

re: #93 Barefoot Grin

Tough. I’ve had two major crashes while cycling. A Giro helmet saved my noggin when I hit a rock at about 25 mph one morning on a lonely road. I went right over the handlebars onto my head and only lost a small amount of face near my upper cheek/eye socket. On the first one I was much younger and wasn’t wearing a helmet when a car plowed through me on a country road. Took a few IQ points into her windshield. That’s the one that made me ruggedly handsome and buy a helmet.

Pedestrians need a helmet more often than cyclists. But that’s not gonna go anywhere. At least I don’t think it will. First time they required helmets in the Tour de France, there was a sit-down strike during one stage.

107
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:38:11pm

re: #102 MsJ

Really? You think accountability would make us a banana republic?

He’ll be dead of old age years before they could get to jury selection. “Lock him up” sounds like “Lock her up” with a genteel accent.

108
stpaulbear  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:40:26pm

re: #93 Barefoot Grin

Tough. I’ve had two major crashes while cycling. A Giro helmet saved my noggin when I hit a rock at about 25 mph one morning on a lonely road. I went right over the handlebars onto my head and only lost a small amount of face near my upper cheek/eye socket. On the first one I was much younger and wasn’t wearing a helmet when a car plowed through me on a country road. Took a few IQ points into her windshield. That’s the one that made me ruggedly handsome and buy a helmet.

I bought my first helmet after the emergency room nurse made me promise to buy one. I was riding pretty fast on a busy residential street when someone flipped their car door open and I got shish-kabobbed on the upper corner of the door frame. The next day, I met the driver again when I was back at the site looking for my keys. She was pissed off that she had to talk to the cops and that I’d thrown her door out of alignment.

Besides the 30-stitch puncture in my armpit, I got off pretty easy. I must have flown straight up in the air. I landed flat on my back, didn’t skid, and didn’t hit my head at all. I just suddenly realized I was in the middle of a busy street and I shot up on my feet from the adrenaline. I didn’t realize I was covered in blood until somebody said ‘Oh, wow!’ Once I realized that the driver was a bitch, I wished I’d have hugged her and said it was OK so that she would have had blood all over her clothes.

I bought a Bell helmet and I won’t ride my bike or scooter without one.

109
Amory Blaine  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:41:49pm

I think Pence needs mother to pull out the hand puppets before any hanky panky happens.

110
CleverToad  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:41:58pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

He’ll be dead of old age years before they could get to jury selection. “Lock him up” sounds like “Lock her up” with a genteel accent.

Probably true, alas. Can I still fantasize about Nunes and Rohrbacher sharing a cell, with ZOGS Ryan and Turtle McConnell a couple of doors down?

111
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:42:10pm

re: #103 MsJ

I don’t know why kompromat doesn’t cover it all for me, it just doesn’t. I’m sure it plays a nice part but other than Lindsey, these fuckers seem more power hungry and sociopathic rather than afraid and cornered.

I don’t know. But my head is on a swivel constantly looking out for additional affronts against ‘free and fair’ elections. Historically speaking, maybe that makes more sense to me. Which doesn’t, of course, mean it’s correct.

112
Amory Blaine  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:42:39pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

Heh. Tell them money is fungible.

113
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:42:58pm

re: #110 CleverToad

Probably true, alas. Can I still fantasize about Nunes and Rohrbacher sharing a cell, with ZOGS Ryan and Turtle McConnell a couple of doors down?

Yup. Cells are for little people.

114
petesh  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:44:22pm

re: #106 wrenchwench

Pedestrians need a helmet more often than cyclists.

Also, armor-plated vests like Jared’s in case of sniper fire.

(TBH, I do have a little cruiser and no helmet, but I do no serious riding. I’m more likely to walk downtown, wearing a hat that has neither tinfoil nor whatever it is they make bike helmets out of nowadays. 12 mins or so, hardly worth locking the bike.)

115
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:45:10pm

re: #108 stpaulbear

In my 31 years in the bike business, I’ve sold lots of helmets, and on rare occasion, have talked a customer into buying one. One person told me I saved his life by doing that.

Worth it.

116
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:45:54pm

There is actually one sort-of billionaire who did time— Bernie Madoff. All that proves is that you can go to jail for fucking other billionaires.

117
Interesting Times  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:47:44pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

He’ll be dead of old age years before they could get to jury selection. “Lock him up” sounds like “Lock her up” with a genteel accent.

That’s sounding an awful lot like bothsiderism, though. I know what you’re saying, but then again:

1) Nixon never faced consequences for torpedoing the Vietnam peace talks in 1968
2) He was then subsequently pardoned by Ford for Watergate
3) Bush and his cabal never faced consequences for the Iraq war
4) …and now America has trump.

See the pattern? Time to interrupt it.

118
Amory Blaine  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:48:23pm

I really wanted Ken Lay to rot in prison. When he died, I didn’t believe it. “I want to see his dead fucking corpse” was my reaction, I recall.

119
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:49:27pm

re: #114 petesh

Also, armor-plated vests like Jared’s in case of sniper fire.

(TBH, I do have a little cruiser and no helmet, but I do no serious riding. I’m more likely to walk downtown, wearing a hat that has neither tinfoil nor whatever it is they make bike helmets out of nowadays. 12 mins or so, hardly worth locking the bike.)

The word ‘helmet’ is banned from some bike forums, because feelings run high for and against. There is something to be said on each side that I can agree with. Some day, I may be trying to talk everyone into wearing one all the time. Please ban me if I start doing that here, Charles. Thank you.

120
Interesting Times  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:49:34pm

If “no one is above the law” is, as the cynics claim, nothing but a disingenuous platitude, America already is a banana republic.

121
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:49:37pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

He’ll be dead of old age years before they could get to jury selection. “Lock him up” sounds like “Lock her up” with a genteel accent.

Did Cosby’s lawyers try that defense? I kinda think they did. Prolly work better on America’s fake TV President rather than America’s fake TV Dad.

122
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:49:38pm

re: #117 Interesting Times

That’s sounding an awful lot like bothsiderism, though. I know what you’re saying, but then again:

1) Nixon never faced consequences for torpedoing the Vietnam peace talks in 1968
2) He was then subsequently pardoned by Ford for Watergate
3) Bush and his cabal never faced consequences for the Iraq war
4) …and now America has trump.

See the pattern? Time to interrupt it.

Just get these clowns out of office. If the price is too high for them, they’ll fight like rats.

123
Ace Rothstein  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:51:09pm

I got fifty bucks that says when future administrations are caught doing unethical things they will point to the Trump crime family and say “Well, they did it and nobody said a word.”

124
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:51:16pm

re: #120 Interesting Times

If “no one is above the law” is, as the cynics claim, nothing but a disingenuous platitude, America already is a banana republic.

QFT!!!
That’s it. That’s the whole point right there.

125
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:51:20pm

re: #120 Interesting Times

If “no one is above the law” is, as the cynics claim, nothing but a disingenuous platitude, America already is a banana republic.

Six foot, seven foot, eight foot bunch…

126
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:52:52pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Six foot, seven foot, eight foot bunch…

Daylight come and me wanna go home…

127
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:53:42pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Six foot, seven foot, eight foot bunch…

Is that in your Harry Belafonte voice? Or am I hearing things?

re: #126 Targetpractice

Daylight come and me wanna go home…

OK, it’s not just me.

128
wrenchwench  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:55:18pm

Daylight’s fading, and I’m walking home with a baseball cap on.

Later, lizards.

129
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 4:59:40pm

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

130
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:02:37pm

re: #127 wrenchwench

Is that in your Harry Belafonte voice? Or am I hearing things?

OK, it’s not just me.

I’m sure it is not the Beetlejuice version, complete with spirit dance. Right Deb?

131
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:02:55pm

re: #129 The Major

[Embedded content]

N1KOUeOf7MVjvywMa9lOPnFjyQGOm4EFLFj4NWjzHVFBjGJYw99aRI6MbktxjRml71XQkg1g+qOSfF+hK6G8AzZc9jVmFa2iAWQNnNN3qDQjk4QiJDm+9uhVHvNV0NX64iTNMB1bZqGFooI0/28wJQ==

132
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:02:58pm
133
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:05:12pm
134
PhillyPretzel  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:10:08pm

So far the snow seems to have stopped but the winds are still up there. The National Weather Service still says that they will decrease overnight and definitely be much lower in the morning.

135
GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:10:30pm

UPDATE: Boone County deputy shot during pursuit won’t survive, will become organ donor

You know… maybe the three suspects thought the government was being too tyrannical so they used their god-given 2A rights to defend themselves.

136
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:10:43pm

re: #129 The Major

[Embedded content]

nuFJUgJ0CMap5A5vM8MvaT5kwC8u5cyPkDekJQ115TVTMSDjmDkiJYTHtdX+DlzXPjjaV0El5ehydFqObZ/OwTmV/gVm+MJNjMwef8mzi9ZPbqQVfBLXZueygHl4oc3REztfRepM3xV/FCuOeMdtfVfxCVSlQ5wRqhNNwgVN6w3KSTCDk1RoGQ==

137
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:10:50pm
138
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:12:07pm

Years ago — after Enron and the dissolution of Arthur Andersen, I listened to a report on the news station while driving home. Another accounting firm had developed a fundamentally illegal way to evade taxes: their pitch to their clients was that it was so complicated, no one in the government would be able to figure it out.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Trump Organization has been involved in illegal activities for decades, but no governmental body had the time or skills to untangle their violations of the law. I think it’s time that someone finally accomplishes this and sends the Trumps all to prison for lengthy periods.

Leona Helmsley was famous for saying “only little people pay taxes” but she ended up in prison nonetheless. The Trumps should face the same sentence; otherwise there is no justice. That said — if they were stripped of all their assets, that may be sufficient punishment.

139
BlueGrl21  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:12:31pm

My son was given a BB-8 for his birthday. Hilarity ensued.

This is why there are no house cats in the Star Wars universe.

140
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:15:04pm

re: #139 BlueGrl21

My son was given a BB-8 for his birthday. Hilarity ensued.

This is why there are no house cats in the Star Wars universe.

[Embedded content]

The feline expression that says “WTF IS THAT?!”

141
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:16:56pm

So I’m confused. You guys think that if collision or obstruction is shown, trump should just be allowed to walk, Scot free, because he’s old.

Did I honestly read that right?

142
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:17:38pm

re: #138 Hecuba’s daughter

Years ago — after Enron and the dissolution of Arthur Andersen, I listened to a report on the news station while driving home. Another accounting firm had developed a fundamentally illegal way to evade taxes: their pitch to their clients was that it was so complicated, no one in the government would be able to figure it out.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Trump Organization has been involved in illegal activities for decades, but no governmental body had the time or skills to untangle their violations of the law. I think it’s time that someone finally accomplishes this and sends the Trumps all to prison for lengthy periods.

Leona Helmsley was famous for saying “only little people pay taxes” but she ended up in prison nonetheless. The Trumps should face the same sentence; otherwise there is no justice. That said — if they were stripped of all their assets, that may be sufficient punishment.

Are we to start with the Trumps, or warm up with the thieves who looted the country in the waning days of the GWB administration?

If you’re at the highest end of the economy, or the lowest end of the economy, there is no justice.

143
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:17:52pm

re: #133 FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀

That has to be a hoax.

144
PhillyPretzel  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:18:55pm

re: #141 MsJ

What I would like to do is illegal and involves a foreign power. Considering all of that we will not go there.

145
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:18:58pm

re: #83 Ace-o-aces

All together now:

Let’s just be clear about what this means: a foreign government has criminal evidence about the Senior WH Advisor and they are putting it out there that they are protecting him, FOR NOW…presumably to influence him?

AND - it’s not a secret. it’s public information!

146
BlueGrl21  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:20:52pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

The feline expression that says “WTF IS THAT?!”

She absolutely despises it.

It’s been 2 days and there has been no adjusting to it. She wants nothing to do with that droid.

147
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:21:02pm
148
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:21:54pm

re: #142 Decatur Deb

Are we to start with the Trumps, or warm up with the thieves who looted the country in the waning days of the GWB administration?

If you’re at the highest end of the economy, or the lowest end of the economy, there is no justice.

You start with what you have — and it’s the current thieves. Whatever Mueller uncovers. A lot of criminals escape punishment — that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t punish anyone.

149
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:21:55pm

re: #141 MsJ

So I’m confused. You guys think that if collision or obstruction is shown, trump should just be allowed to walk, Scot free, because he’s old.

Did I honestly read that right?

No, but if walking free is the price of getting him and his scum out of power before they do irreparable harm, it’s worth it. Think of it as plea bargaining on a planetary scale.

150
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:22:05pm

re: #124 JordanRules

Many of the ugly pages of American history have been obscured and forgotten. A society is always eager to cover misdeeds with a cloak of forgetfulness, but no society can fully repress an ugly past when the ravages persist into the present. America owes a debt of justice which it has only begun to pay. If it loses the will to finish or slackens in its determination, history will recall its crimes and the country that would be great will lack the most indispensable element of greatness — justice.

- Martin Luther King ‘67

151
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:26:25pm

re: #141 MsJ

So I’m confused. You guys think that if collision or obstruction is shown, trump should just be allowed to walk, Scot free, because he’s old.

Did I honestly read that right?

Not me. I want whatever the law will allow. No backing off this one. This is for history.

152
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:27:04pm
153
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:27:47pm

re: #117 Interesting Times

That’s sounding an awful lot like bothsiderism, though. I know what you’re saying, but then again:

1) Nixon never faced consequences for torpedoing the Vietnam peace talks in 1968
2) He was then subsequently pardoned by Ford for Watergate
3) Bush and his cabal never faced consequences for the Iraq war
4) …and now America has trump.

See the pattern? Time to interrupt it.

the law applies to everyone or its no law at all
you dont get to skate just cause youre the president
ESPECIALLY if the laws you broke were to influence the election to get you the job

154
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:28:19pm
155
BlueGrl21  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:28:45pm

re: #151 ObserverArt

Not me. I want whatever the law will allow. No backing off this one. This is for history.

I don’t want him off scot free but I want him out of office ASAP. He is already doing more harm every day he is there. Every damn day it’s something new.

156
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:29:52pm

re: #123 Ace Rothstein

I got fifty bucks that says when future administrations are caught doing unethical things they will point to the Trump crime family and say “Well, they did it and nobody said a word.”

i got another 50 that says when a dem administration does anything, anything at all, its gonna be equated to trumps massive and sweeping shitshow

157
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:30:54pm

NSFW

Click to Reveal
158
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:32:35pm

Oops. OK, my #157 is hidden. Please reload quickly if you’re at work. Sorry!

159
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:33:08pm

re: #155 BlueGrl21

I don’t want him off scot free but I want him out of office ASAP. He is already doing more harm every day he is there. Every damn day it’s something new.

We haven’t seen what will happen when he’s facing a prolonged desperate collapse. I don’t want to find out how the DoD leadership defines patriotism and loyalty.

160
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:33:35pm

re: #152 JordanRules

Per pooler @svdate: “A reminder that Mar-a-Lago is Trump’s private, for-profit resort with a six-figure initiation fee. Tonight it is hosting an RNC fundraiser, the rental fees from which will profit the president personally. The fundraiser at this writing remains closed press.”

this is why

161
Ace Rothstein  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:35:04pm

re: #157 teleskiguy

LOL OMFG

162
BlueGrl21  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:36:16pm

re: #161 Ace Rothstein

LOL OMFG

Those are illegal in Texas.

Seriously.

163
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:38:09pm

re: #162 BlueGrl21

Those are illegal in Texas.

Seriously.

You can have them, but not sell them, in AL. Guess the best collections are inherited.

164
Ace Rothstein  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:38:39pm

re: #133 FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀

The replies in that tweet are just unreal.

165
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:39:13pm

BRR!!!

166
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:40:22pm

re: #149 Decatur Deb

No, but if walking free is the price of getting him and his scum out of power before they do irreparable harm, it’s worth it. Think of it as plea bargaining on a planetary scale.

I get what you’re saying but I have to disagree. There’s right and wrong. Wrong requires consequences. Consequences so there’s incentive to not try it again. Next time could be worse. Or the time after. Any schmuck with an agenda goes for it.

Trump and his entire family (all a part of this government scheme - maybe not Eric, the jury is out on him as skeevy as he is) need to lose everything and go to prison. I’m not willing to let this slide. I’m not willing to go along to get along. Not if it’s proven that he’s a fucking traitor - a literal traitor. Not for emoluments. Not for cronyism and nepotism.

No. Not me. Punish to the fullest extent of the law. Either we are a nation of laws or not. And if we are, everyone who plays pays the same consequences.

167
Ace Rothstein  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:40:47pm
168
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:41:40pm
169
scottslemmons  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:42:11pm

Y’all elect me president, and I’ll shave off his combover before we even process the paperwork for his bail.

170
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:42:39pm

Ever completely lose your temper in a non profane non kinetic manner?

Strolled into Wank (Bank) of America to cash my check. Friday, 3:00 17 customers in line, 2 tellers. 3:40 my teller asks me if I would like an account there. This after attempting to charge me to cash a paycheck. So I ask to buy a cashiers check for a cash deal. Nope, I must have a “recurring” account they won’t sell me a check. I object just strongly enough to get the manager at her shoulder behind the barrier.

At which point I turn and address the 17 people in line and suggest they thank the teller for refusing my biz, ‘cause with only two tellers she just saved everyone in line about tem minutes. Manager says you don’t have to be rude. I step away from teller freeing up the teller as I say to him you did not have to lay off so many tellers lately. He says that’s not his call I say well fine maybe they should not have stolen 200 bucks from me in unreimbursed fraud charges just before I left the bank. Security guard makes an appearance, I look at him and give him my best salesman’s smile. “Did you know this guy (pointing at manager) actually has half the authority his cheap suit implies? He actually stifled a laugh.

Manager is now red faced and coming my way out from behind the plastic barrier. I just “disarmed” his dog with a joke. If he gets angry enough I’m thinking he might assault me on 36(?) cameras. So I point at the nearest camera and ask him what he would actually like to do next…. as I stroll to the double mantrap ATM room doors. Body language says lets take this outside to talk further. He declined. Will they kick me out on sight next week? Stay tuned.

171
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:42:45pm

re: #156 dangerman

i got another 50 that says when a dem administration does anything, anything at all, its gonna be equated to trumps massive and sweeping shitshow

It will when send do nothing! Remember mustard on a hamburger and a tan suit?

And that pisses me off even more!

172
BlueGrl21  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:43:07pm

re: #166 MsJ

I get what you’re saying but I have to disagree. There’s right and wrong. Wrong requires consequences. Consequences so there’s incentive to not try it again. Next time could be worse. Or the time after. Any schmuck with an agenda goes for it.

Trump and his entire family (all a part of this government scheme - maybe not Eric, the jury is out on him as skeevy as he is) need to lose everything and go to prison. I’m not willing to let this slide. I’m not willing to go along to get along. Not if it’s proven that he’s a fucking traitor - a literal traitor. Not for emoluments. Not for cronyism and nepotism.

No. Not me. Punish to the fullest extent of the law. Either we are a nation of laws or not. And if we are, everyone who plays pays the same consequences.

I highly suspect Bob Mueller shares your point of view.

173
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:43:09pm

re: #166 MsJ

I get what you’re saying but I have to disagree. There’s right and wrong. Wrong requires consequences. Consequences so there’s incentive to not try it again. Next time could be worse. Or the time after. Any schmuck with an agenda goes for it.

Trump and his entire family (all a part of this government scheme - maybe not Eric, the jury is out on him as skeevy as he is) need to lose everything and go to prison. I’m not willing to let this slide. I’m not willing to go along to get along. Not if it’s proven that he’s a fucking traitor - a literal traitor. Not for emoluments. Not for cronyism and nepotism.

No. Not me. Punish to the fullest extent of the law. Either we are a nation of laws or not. And if we are, everyone who plays pays the same consequences.

You stand convicted of idealism. Soulless pragmatists like me saw the need to let Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee skate.

174
Ace Rothstein  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:44:41pm

175
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:45:47pm
176
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:48:04pm

re: #166 MsJ

I get what you’re saying but I have to disagree. There’s right and wrong. Wrong requires consequences. Consequences so there’s incentive to not try it again. Next time could be worse. Or the time after. Any schmuck with an agenda goes for it.

Trump and his entire family (all a part of this government scheme - maybe not Eric, the jury is out on him as skeevy as he is) need to lose everything and go to prison. I’m not willing to let this slide. I’m not willing to go along to get along. Not if it’s proven that he’s a fucking traitor - a literal traitor. Not for emoluments. Not for cronyism and nepotism.

No. Not me. Punish to the fullest extent of the law. Either we are a nation of laws or not. And if we are, everyone who plays pays the same consequences.

My dream is to see Trump and company face federal espionage act charges as part of this circus. That can be a capital crime.

The basis for it must already be there, since any classified information in this White House is known in Moscow 5 minutes later.

177
Skip Intro  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:51:26pm

re: #174 Ace Rothstein

I wish.

178
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:51:27pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

You stand convicted of idealism. Soulless pragmatists like me saw the need to let Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee skate.

I can see both sides of this issue, but soulless pragmatism has been on a very long losing streak.

179
Skip Intro  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:52:57pm

re: #175 teleskiguy

To pass Trump the bribe of course. Spiro Agnew did the same thing.

180
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:56:40pm

re: #178 EPR-radar

I can see both sides of this issue, but soulless pragmatism has been on a very long losing streak.

We spend too much of our time cleaning up the messes.

181
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:56:40pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

You stand convicted of idealism. Soulless pragmatists like me saw the need to let Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee skate.

Please don’t tell me the concept of right vs wrong is idealism. That makes me want to cry.

And we shudda hung them. No statues. No revisionism. They fought because they wanted to own people. Hang those fuckers.

Don’t get me started. I’m not feeling magnanimous in any way these days. 😡

182
Interesting Times  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:57:33pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

You stand convicted of idealism. Soulless pragmatists like me saw the need to let Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee skate.

Shiplord Kirel begs to differ:

The Lincoln-Johnson administration’s policy of conciliation toward the defeated south was certainly understandable, even praiseworthy in some respects. In retrospect though it was one of the most disastrous errors in history. The federal government had every right to hang the traitors and confiscate their property. The fetish for “national reconciliation” created Jim Crow, delayed civil rights for a hundred years, and permitted the institutionalized spread of the false “Lost Cause” mythology. The soft treatment of the captured rebel ringleaders was unprecedented at the time, and would be considered exceptional and unwise even today.

And what thanks does Lincoln get from the Confederates for his forbearance? He is vilified as a dictator and tyrant who deserved to be shot.

RWNjs are determined to launch another civil war. The outcome will be the same too. Don’t make the same mistake again when it’s over.

183
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 5:57:57pm

re: #181 MsJ

Please don’t tell me the concept of right vs wrong is idealism. That makes me want to cry.

And we shudda hung them. No statues. No revisionism. They fought because they wanted to own people. Hang those fuckers.

Don’t get me started. I’m not feeling magnanimous in any way these days. 😡

Ya had’da be there.

184
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:01:34pm

re: #182 Interesting Times

Shiplord Kirrel begs to differ:

The South couldn’t win after Gettysburg. The North could still lose it until Atlanta and the electoral defeat of McClellan. The country was exhausted. Think of Alabama and Texas in 2017, after a hundred years of purges.

185
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:02:49pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

Eh, as a black guy, I’m kinda with MsJ. And with the benefit of hindsight, it was *obviously* the wrong call. So maybe pragmatism isn’t what’s called for here.

186
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:05:26pm

re: #185 Bass Reeves

Eh, as a black guy, I’m kinda with MsJ. And with the benefit of hindsight, it was *obviously* the wrong call. So maybe pragmatism isn’t what’s called for here.

We’re talking as though this is a slam dunk. We will be lucky to rid ourselves of these people at all, before the 2020 election. And if we screw that up as badly as the last one it isn’t Ivanka who’s going to prison.

187
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:05:47pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

I’m with MsJ. It’s not idealism. It’s effing deterrence. Put him in jail for life, when he dies, put a web camera on the still imprisoned decaying corpse as a reminder to not screw with our Presidency. Ever. Let his children seek to drop the Trump name and end the line.

188
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:08:10pm

re: #187 Unshaken Defiance

I’m with MsJ. It’s not idealism. It’s effing deterrence. Put him in jail for life, when he dies, put a web camera on the still imprisoned decaying corpse as a reminder to not screw with our Presidency. Ever. Let his children seek to drop the Trump name and end the line.

First we have to win.

Then we have to do something with the 40 million people who voted for him.

189
Interesting Times  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:08:45pm

re: #182 Interesting Times

Searching for that old comment of Shiplord’s brought up a slew of other observations eerily relevant to this thread:

re: #150 Shiplord Kirel

There seems to be an unwritten code in this country that our country’s leaders cannot really be held to account for crimes, as though it would embarrass us or reduce our standing in a way that failure to prosecute the criminals would not.

Exactly. So I suppose it’s only natural that it would inevitably degenerate to the point where you have a so-called “president” whose henchpeople state outright that he’s above the law.

And now the question remains, will this be the inevitable straw that breaks the camel’s back? If Mueller’s investigation turns up enough evidence, will justice actually be allowed to proceed? And could trump, if he does what I think he’ll do out of arrogance/desperation/whatever, be the first American president to be charged with crimes against humanity? Stay tuned…

190
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:09:09pm

re: #166 MsJ

I get what you’re saying but I have to disagree. There’s right and wrong. Wrong requires consequences. Consequences so there’s incentive to not try it again. Next time could be worse. Or the time after. Any schmuck with an agenda goes for it.

Trump and his entire family (all a part of this government scheme - maybe not Eric, the jury is out on him as skeevy as he is) need to lose everything and go to prison. I’m not willing to let this slide. I’m not willing to go along to get along. Not if it’s proven that he’s a fucking traitor - a literal traitor. Not for emoluments. Not for cronyism and nepotism.

No. Not me. Punish to the fullest extent of the law. Either we are a nation of laws or not. And if we are, everyone who plays pays the same consequences.

As a lifelong resident of Illinois, I’ve seen 4 governors go to prison (well — one was for crimes after leaving office) and the world didn’t collapse. So I agree fully with notion that these people need to be imprisoned if they committed felonies under the law.

191
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:09:16pm

re: #187 Unshaken Defiance

I’m with MsJ. It’s not idealism. It’s effing deterrence. Put him in jail for life, when he dies, put a web camera on the still imprisoned decaying corpse as a reminder to not screw with our Presidency. Ever. Let his children seek to drop the Trump name and end the line.

192
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:09:23pm

re: #186 Decatur Deb

We’re talking as though this is a slam dunk. We will be lucky to rid ourselves of these people at all, before the 2020 election. And if we screw that up as badly as the last one it isn’t Ivanka who’s going to prison.

If it’s not a slam dunk after all the clearly visible emoluments etc etc etc we need alternate measures. And I don’t believe we are there.

193
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:09:47pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

The reason we have those 40 million is because MsJ wasn’t in charge during the aftermath of the Civil War.

194
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:12:27pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

First we have to win.

Then we have to do something with the 40 million people who voted for him.

We marginalize them politically.

195
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:12:54pm

re: #193 Bass Reeves

The reason we have those 40 million is because MsJ wasn’t in charge during the aftermath of the Civil War.

If we had gone that way there wouldn’t be an America today, unless it were much more of a police state.

196
Interesting Times  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:13:08pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

First we have to win.

Then we have to do something with the 40 million people who voted for him.

Is that your 2020 guess? If not, you mean 62 million -_-

But hey, maybe the whole “economic anxiety” thing actually does apply to some of those voters:

Do I think a majority of trump voters will come to the same conclusion as Ms McCoy? Hell naw. But it’s PA. All you need is to shave off a few thousand here and there in a swing state or two or three.

197
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:14:29pm

re: #194 Unshaken Defiance

We marginalize them politically.

Or entrench them in The Lost Cause 2.0.

198
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:15:05pm

re: #195 Decatur Deb

I was on my way to McDonalds, but you grabbed right hold of my interest. You think, that treating harshly the leaders of an organization that actually committed treason and war against the United States would have led to a police state?

199
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:15:40pm

re: #196 Interesting Times

Is that your 2020 guess? If not, you mean 62 million -_-

But hey, maybe the whole “economic anxiety” thing actually does apply to some of those voters:

[Embedded content]

Do I think a majority of trump voters will come to the same conclusion as Ms McCoy? Hell naw. But it’s PA. All you need is to shave off a few thousand here and there in a swing state or two or three.

(Tangled up 47% and 62 million.)

200
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:17:17pm

re: #198 Bass Reeves

I was on my way to McDonalds, but you grabbed right hold of my interest. You think, that treating harshly the leaders of an organization that actually committed treason and war against the United States would have led to a police state?

It would have led to a more-or-less permanent Reconstruction, essentially government by emergency decree.

201
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:18:28pm

re: #193 Bass Reeves

The reason we have those 40 million is because MsJ wasn’t in charge during the aftermath of the Civil War.

Or Nixon.

I’m an older, white woman. And I gotta say, I was emotionally affected reading Uncle Tom’s Cabin. I couldn’t read 50 pages in without crying.

I was emotionally affected seeing an ad from the 1800s in I believe a Boston (!) newspaper seeing listings for pounds of butter and little black boys. I’ll never forget that image. Ever.

We should have hanged them then and we should hang them now when they do shit like hate crimes against blacks or Muslims or gays because some dickhead doesn’t like someone else - for no goddamned reason at all. The leniency is deadly for us as a nation.

202
William Lewis  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:18:47pm

re: #195 Decatur Deb

If we had gone that way there wouldn’t be an America today, unless it were much more of a police state.

What exists in Scotland today is nothing like what existed in Scotland prior to 1745. It would have taken a far harsher federal government to inflict that level of change on the south than has ever existed in the US.

203
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:19:21pm

re: #194 Unshaken Defiance

We marginalize them politically.

That’s working out well. Our fucking president says there are fine people in both sides. (spit)

204
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:21:16pm

re: #200 Decatur Deb

I don’t follow your chain of thought tbh. The end of reconstruction is, again, in hindsight *bad*. Like, rise of the KKK to Jim Crow to Civil Rights movement to Religious Right to the bullshit we have going on today bad.

205
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:24:29pm

re: #175 teleskiguy

@jimjefferies
Why do you need a meeting to talk about doing nothing

He needed to be told to do nothing

206
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:25:03pm

re: #190 Hecuba’s daughter

As a lifelong resident of Illinois, I’ve seen 4 governors go to prison (well — one was for crimes after leaving office) and the world didn’t collapse. So I agree fully with notion that these people need to be imprisoned if they committed felonies under the law.

Maybe I was too cavalier about this — looked at Wiki about Kerner and apparently there is reason to believe he may have been railroaded by the Nixon administration —
a lock-him-up scenario for political reasons.

en.wikipedia.org.

Yes — I know Wiki isn’t the most reliable source, but we are talking about Nixon here.

207
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:25:20pm

re: #204 Bass Reeves

I don’t follow your chain of thought tbh. The end of reconstruction is, again, in hindsight *bad*. Like, rise of the KKK to Jim Crow to Civil Rights movement to Religious Right to the bullshit we have going on today bad.

What you’re describing is bad, but less bad in every iteration. That is, it is our history, put clumsily back on the rails to the modern world. Reconstruction wasn’t reconstructing much except the white power structure along more efficient lines.

208
Skip Intro  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:27:58pm

re: #203 MsJ

That’s working out well. Our fucking president says there are fine people in both sides. (spit)

As long as those 62 million have their own “news” and their own “facts” things are never going to get better. I am not optimistic the future of the country.

209
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:29:21pm

They are still promoting this without fixing the bloody chart. ARGH!

210
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:32:54pm

re: #207 Decatur Deb

It doesn’t get more “efficient white power” than 3/5th compromise. Since the end of reconstruction led to a immediate backslide for equal rights, and an insanely large disenfranchisement of black people for (checks watch) up until about now, what “police state” would you imagine that is worse? I’m serious, paint me the picture you have in your head where not squashing the shit out of stuff like the Lost Cause puts us in a worse position today.

211
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:34:14pm
212
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:34:50pm

re: #200 Decatur Deb

It would have led to a more-or-less permanent Reconstruction, essentially government by emergency decree.

The more I think about US history, the less unthinkable a thousand year Reconstruction seems.

213
Skip Intro  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:35:27pm

re: #211 MsJ

NO! That can’t be!

214
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:38:15pm

Giphy

215
wheat-dogg  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:38:27pm

re: #213 Skip Intro

NO! That can’t be!

I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

216
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:39:27pm

Trolling level Master.

217
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:39:45pm
218
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:40:38pm

re: #210 Bass Reeves

It doesn’t get more “efficient white power” than 3/5th compromise. Since the end of reconstruction led to a immediate backslide for equal rights, and an insanely large disenfranchisement of black people for (checks watch) up until about now, what “police state” would you imagine that is worse? I’m serious, paint me the picture you have in your head where not squashing the shit out of stuff like the Lost Cause puts us in a worse position today.

Plus the history the US ended up with was deeply corrupted by the compromises that were made along the way. As one example, there was a long span of time after the civil war where the two parties got along reasonably well.

The start of that time span was the compromise of 1877 that ended Reconstruction, the end of that time span was the civil rights era of the 20th century and the fundamental basis of the bipartisan agreement during that time was white supremacy, particularly in the south.

219
wheat-dogg  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:40:57pm

re: #215 wheat-dogg

I should have included the clip.

Casablanca I’m shocked that there’s gambling!

220
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:41:12pm

re: #210 Bass Reeves

It doesn’t get more “efficient white power” than 3/5th compromise. Since the end of reconstruction led to a immediate backslide for equal rights, and an insanely large disenfranchisement of black people for (checks watch) up until about now…

Ooof. Great points. But it could be worse at least by way of foreign examples. Much to repair in our society. Big damn job that needs doing.

221
Jay C  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:42:40pm

re: #216 MsJ

Trolling level Master.

[Embedded content]

Yeah, I love Ted Lieu (wonder how he’d do as Speaker Of The House?), but he misses one major point in his snark:

Why does Devin Nunes let his daughter watch Tucker Carlson in the first place?

Isn’t that classifiable as some sort of child abuse or other??

ADD: See Comment # 224: - should be “parental neglect” or whatever, at the least…

222
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:42:41pm
223
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:44:05pm

re: #207 Decatur Deb

“We were 8 years in power” by Ta-Nehisi Coates has a different perspective. What we learned in school about Reconstruction may have been inaccurate and designed to favor decisions made by the white power structure than what could have happened if the Reconstruction policies and promises had actually remained in force for a longer period of time.

224
Kragar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:45:34pm
225
lawhawk  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:46:46pm

re: #1 FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀

The GOP is scared of facts.

That’s the GOP in a nutshell.

That’s Trump in a nutshell.

Facts are an anathema to the GOP and Trump.

226
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:47:33pm

re: #224 Kragar

Tucker Carlson’s revolting ‘Sperminator’ fantasies should be reserved for his private gun-fucking time, rather than inflicted on his viewers. Not even Fox News viewers deserve that level of abuse.

227
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:48:29pm

re: #224 Kragar

His perpetual who farted face kills me.

228
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:49:23pm

re: #210 Bass Reeves

It doesn’t get more “efficient white power” than 3/5th compromise. Since the end of reconstruction led to a immediate backslide for equal rights, and an insanely large disenfranchisement of black people for (checks watch) up until about now, what “police state” would you imagine that is worse? I’m serious, paint me the picture you have in your head where not squashing the shit out of stuff like the Lost Cause puts us in a worse position today.

It’s hard to imagine slavery persisting another generation in the face of technology and developing humanism throughout the “first” world—America would have been a pariah nation. It was replaced first by attempts at quasi-slavery, tying former slaves to the same end of hoe, enforced by both violence and the new economic whip. With mobility, a flow of skilled freemen left the South for the North and West, making it’s repair, growth and industrialization even slower. An influx of educators and investment did occur, and that would also have been slowed if terror and military counter-terror had increased lawlessness in the occupied states. We are still seeing deep resentment of the North, often cloaked as the rural/urban split. Taking Thaddeus Steven’s approach would have made it bloodier, longer, and the South would persist as a Northern colony. Some around here think it is.

229
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:51:30pm

re: #222 teleskiguy

[Embedded content]

Our steel industry is not magically going to become competitive by passing tariffs. Protectionist policies will simply cause steel consumers to pass the cost on to their customers, rather than reorganizing their entire supply chains to take advantage of steel mills that lack the manpower/capacity to be competitive.

230
Charles Johnson  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:54:10pm

re: #224 Kragar

This is one of those Australian right wing memes, planted in fertile US soil by Fox’s resident presentable white supremacist.

231
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:54:39pm

re: #228 Decatur Deb

It’s hard to imagine slavery persisting another generation in the face of technology and developing humanism throughout the “first” world—America would have been a pariah nation. It was replaced first by attempts at quasi-slavery, tying former slaves to the same end of hoe, enforced by both violence and the new economic whip. With mobility, a flow of skilled freemen left the South for the North and West, making it’s repair, growth and industrialization even slower. An influx of educators and investment did occur, and that would also have been slowed if terror and military counter-terror had increased lawlessness in the occupied states. We are still seeing deep resentment of the North, often cloaked as the rural/urban split. Taking Thaddeus Steven’s approach would have made it bloodier, longer, and the South would persist as a Northern colony. Some around here think it is.

I’m not so sure this is true. Remember, this was the age of colonies throughout Afrca and Asia, where conditions for the colonized were little - if any-better. Remember also that for the rest of the 19th Century we pursued a genocide against the Native Americans without becoming pariahs.

232
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:55:39pm

re: #187 Unshaken Defiance

I’m with MsJ. It’s not idealism. It’s effing deterrence. Put him in jail for life, when he dies, put a web camera on the still imprisoned decaying corpse as a reminder to not screw with our Presidency. Ever. Let his children seek to drop the Trump name and end the line.

This. Trump is the fourth blatantly criminal Republican president in my lifetime (Nixon, Reagan, W Bush, Trump). We can’t put up with this level of ongoing Republican criminality any longer. Life sentences and confiscation of ill gotten gains has to be the starting point. Were I in Mueller’s position, I’d use federal espionage act charges to really scare the shit out of the worst offenders, with frequent reminders that espionage can be a capital crime.

233
Unshaken Defiance  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:56:50pm

re: #230 Charles Johnson

This is one of those Australian right wing memes, planted in fertile US soil by Fox’s resident presentable white supremacist.

You gotta be a GOP cultist to believe that crap for a second.

234
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 6:58:16pm

re: #231 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m not so sure this is true. Remember, this was the age of colonies throughout Afrca and Asia, where conditions for the colonized were little - if any-better. Remember also that for the rest of the 19th Century we pursued a genocide against the Native Americans without becoming pariahs.

At least a quarter of today’s Republican party would try to make slavery work because it would piss off the liberals. It would be just one more policy position they hold that is evil and completely divorced from reality.

235
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:00:05pm

re: #231 Blind Frog Belly White

I’m not so sure this is true. Remember, this was the age of colonies throughout Afrca and Asia, where conditions for the colonized were little - if any-better. Remember also that for the rest of the 19th Century we pursued a genocide against the Native Americans without becoming pariahs.

Most developed economies had already outlawed chattel slavery before our Civil War (looking at you, Belgium). By WWI, we were seeing the rise of the democracies, by WWII, the wind-down of colonialism. A sticking point in my thinking is always that by WWII the US had to be a strong, single, nation. Failing that all the alternate histories become nightmares.

236
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:01:07pm

re: #232 EPR-radar

This. Trump is the fourth blatantly criminal Republican president in my lifetime (Nixon, Reagan, W Bush, Trump). We can’t put up with this level of ongoing Republican criminality any longer. Life sentences and confiscation of ill gotten gains has to be the starting point. Were I in Mueller’s position, I’d use federal espionage act charges to really scare the shit out of the worst offenders, with frequent reminders that espionage can be a capital crime.

Ghwb was up to his eyeballs in iran-contra
that’s what he wrote in his diary

237
wheat-dogg  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:01:17pm

re: #218 EPR-radar

Plus the history the US ended up with was deeply corrupted by the compromises that were made along the way. As one example, there was a long span of time after the civil war where the two parties got along reasonably well.

The start of that time span was the compromise of 1877 that ended Reconstruction, the end of that time span was the civil rights era of the 20th century and the fundamental basis of the bipartisan agreement during that time was white supremacy, particularly in the south.

I doubt coming down hard on the Rebels would have either quashed the Lost Cause mythology or improved the lives of the former slaves. Considering there are living people in the South who still hate the Yankees for killing their great-grandpappy, even with a lenient Reconstruction, taking harsh punitive actions against the leaders of the rebellion would have made the situation worse, and made reunification even more difficult to manage. Lee and Davis would have been elevated to martyrdom had they been executed for treason.

238
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:02:21pm
239
Renaissance_Man  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:03:06pm

Some very interesting discussion going on tonight regarding criminal charges against a head of state, and also reparation and reconstruction in the greater sense.

I’ve said before that America will only continue to decline without severe, palpable consequences. Not just in the criminal or political sense, but also consequences that are felt by the population as a whole. As a nation, they will try to forgive white men for their sins as they always do, and if they succeed, there will only be worse to come.

240
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:03:17pm

re: #236 dangerman

Ghwb was up to his eyeballs in iran-contra
that’s what he wrote in his diary

Behind every great fortune is a great crime.
—Ballsack

241
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:03:43pm

re: #228 Decatur Deb

It’s hard to imagine slavery persisting another generation in the face of technology and developing humanism throughout the “first” world—America would have been a pariah nation.
…

Taking Thaddeus Steven’s approach would have made it bloodier, longer, and the South would persist as a Northern colony. Some around here think it is.

Thank god though, the real bombs have been planted that will really change the south.

The Big Cities in all the states. The Islands of Blue in State of Red.

They are blowing up and wanting to be different from their historical issues and perceptions.

They are more liberal and some of that is also being pushed by big companies and foreign businesses investing.

Many of the younger people are buying it and moving in.

What are you gonna do when they leave the farms and go to the big city???

242
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:04:25pm

I so love this picture.

243
wheat-dogg  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:05:42pm

Time to brave the metro and do some shopping in the central biz district. Later people.

244
Renaissance_Man  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:05:53pm

re: #237 wheat-dogg

I doubt coming down hard on the Rebels would have either quashed the Lost Cause mythology or improved the lives of the former slaves. Considering there are living people in the South who still hate the Yankees for killing their great-grandpappy, even with a lenient Reconstruction, taking harsh punitive actions against the leaders of the rebellion would have made the situation worse, and made reunification even more difficult to manage. Lee and Davis would have been elevated to martyrdom had they been executed for treason.

I submit that such people feel free to hate the Yankees because they have been allowed to glorify their past and excuse the sins of the fathers. But it’s also true that reunification would have been more difficult. Despite the war, the ruling class of the North felt more kinship with their Southern counterparts than they did the slaves they had come to liberate.

245
lawhawk  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:06:25pm

re: #238 MsJ

246
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:06:49pm

re: #239 Renaissance_Man

Some very interesting discussion going on tonight regarding criminal charges against a head of state, and also reparation and reconstruction in the greater sense.

I’ve said before that America will only continue to decline without severe, palpable consequences. Not just in the criminal or political sense, but also consequences that are felt by the population as a whole. As a nation, they will try to forgive white men for their sins as they always do, and if they succeed, there will only be worse to come.

Consequences!

Just like my constant 2a harping

Without consequences there is no incentive for many types of people to behave

247
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:07:09pm

re: #228 Decatur Deb

It’s hard to imagine slavery persisting another generation in the face of technology and developing humanism throughout the “first” world—America would have been a pariah nation.

Assumes a change of heart in a people who fought a war to *keep* slavery. How is a generation going to make them give up what they were willing to kill to keep? What was going to change in the economic composition of the South to not make them reliant on a cheap labor force?

It was replaced first by attempts at quasi-slavery, tying former slaves to the same end of hoe, enforced by both violence and the new economic whip. With mobility, a flow of skilled freemen left the South for the North and West, making it’s repair, growth and industrialization even slower.

Uh, sure. The problem is that the US was willing to prioritize the growth and repair of the south over the humanity of non-whites. We’re talking about making people feel the consquences of their action, and saying it would have been harder for the South to recover from the Civil War if we didn’t turn a blind eye to them lynching folks for another 80 years isn’t a great argument.

An influx of educators and investment did occur, and that would also have been slowed if terror and military counter-terror had increased lawlessness in the occupied states. We are still seeing deep resentment of the North, often cloaked as the rural/urban split. Taking Thaddeus Steven’s approach would have made it bloodier, longer, and the South would persist as a Northern colony. Some around here think it is.

We’re still seeing deep resentment of the North because of the Lost Cause bullshit (aka they’re delusional), because we didn’t put the former Confederacy’s nose into the dirt until they were willing to TREAT EVERYONE AS A HUMAN BEING. JFC, the United States has been behind the power curve on EVERY moral decision since its inception. Every. Single. One. Blacks, Women, LGBTQ, Guns. You name it, we excused it until 20 years past the point of insanity.

248
Ace-o-aces  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:07:22pm

re: #230 Charles Johnson

This is one of those Australian right wing memes, planted in fertile US soil by Fox’s resident presentable white supremacist.

We should send that fucker back.

249
Charles Johnson  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:07:49pm
250
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:07:58pm

re: #241 ObserverArt

Thank god though, the real bombs have been planted that will really change the south.

The Big Cities in all the states. The Islands of Blue in State of Red.

They are blowing up and wanting to be different from their historical issues and perceptions.

They are more liberal and some of that is also being pushed by big companies and foreign businesses investing.

Many of the younger people are buying it and moving in.

What are you gonna do when they leave the farms and go to the big city???

Electrification, highway travel, wealth, media, internet, and internal/international immigration will put an end to Dixie, sho ‘nuff. God knows I’ve done my Yankee bit.

251
ozharas  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:08:05pm

re: #230 Charles Johnson

All this repeated commentary about Australian gun laws, prompted me to go back and read the details of the massacre in 1996. Turns out, he used an AR-15 in the first part of his attack, killing 12 people in 15 seconds, mainly customers sitting in a cafe/gift shop. Horrific injuries as well.

Tucker doesn’t mention the high level of public support of the change to laws and the buyback. Police were not going door to door, raiding homes - rather, we were queuing up to hand them in. There was such a level of revulsion and grief after the massacre - 35 dead, only 6 weeks after the Dunblane massacre as well, with bi-partisan support, and all States and the Federal governments in agreeement too.

252
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:11:36pm

re: #247 Bass Reeves

Assumes a change of heart in a people who fought a war to *keep* slavery. How is a generation going to make them give up what they were willing to kill to keep? What was going to change in the economic composition of the South to not make them reliant on a cheap labor force?

Uh, sure. The problem is that the US was willing to prioritize the growth and repair of the south over the humanity of non-whites. We’re talking about making people feel the consquences of their action, and saying it would have been harder for the South to recover from the Civil War if we didn’t turn a blind eye to them lynching folks for another 80 years isn’t a great argument.

We’re still seeing deep resentment of the North because of the Lost Cause bullshit (aka they’re delusional), because we didn’t put the former Confederacy’s nose into the dirt until they were willing to TREAT EVERYONE AS A HUMAN BEING. JFC, the United States has been behind the power curve on EVERY moral decision since its inception. Every. Single. One. Blacks, Women, LGBTQ, Guns. You name it, we excused it until 20 years past the point of insanity.

You are looking for a revolution in the hearts of men. So am I, but I don’t expect it to come from a boot on the neck.

253
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:12:06pm

re: #236 dangerman

Ghwb was up to his eyeballs in iran-contra
that’s what he wrote in his diary

I’m always open to upward revisions of the count of criminal Republican presidents. I should have known better at least because HW Bush was a very senior spook at a very corrupt time in the CIA’s history.

254
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:12:09pm

There is a Twitter discussion between Josh Marshall and Tom Nichols, which is interesting, mostly for Nichols being eyerollingly obtuse.

Nichols buys into the whole “Democrats abandoned the White Working Class, in favor of Identity Politics”, while not grasping that Reagan, his idol, was up to his eyeballs in Identity Politics - not just the overtly racist stuff like “Welfare Queens driving Cadillacs”, and “Young bucks buying T-bones with Food Stamps”, but even the ‘Small Government’ stuff, which racist white folks interpret as ‘Black and Brown folks don’t get my tax money!”

So, Reagan’s appeal was overtly racist, and of course attracted the more racist or ‘racism-blind’ of the WWC. But at the same time, it REPELLED black and brown folks who saw it for what it was.

Johnson pushed away whites simply by trying to address inequality, and attracted minorities. Then Nixon went “Law & Order” and push/pulled more. Since then the increasing racism in the Republican party has attracted many or most whites while increasingly repelling minorities.

But Josh brings up a good point, which is that it’s not that blacks and other minorities VOTE for the Democratic Party. They ARE the Democratic Party. Nichols still sees the parties as somehow separate from their electorates, so that he sees the GOP as having been hijacked by Trump, and the Democratic Party ‘beholden to’ minorities.

255
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:16:41pm

re: #254 Blind Frog Belly White

No discussion of whites and Democrats can occur without reconciling this.

256
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:16:52pm

re: #242 MsJ

I so love this picture.

[Embedded content]

Looks like the museum guard is admiring the cute little one too.

257
Kragar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:16:52pm
258
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:17:05pm

Great discussion. Reading in between making s’ghetti and meatballs.

To add a graph that needs a few asterisks but is still good…

And this new investigative story…

259
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:18:35pm

re: #235 Decatur Deb

It wasn’t a strong, single nation. It was a nation with a high manufacturing base. Jim Crow, reservations, and internment camps should have disabused you of that idea.

re: #252 Decatur Deb

No, I’m looking at the majority of white Southerners after the Civil War as morally children, whose primary motivation is fear of punishment. If it took a thousand years for them to get to an actual sense of ethics, oh well.

260
Ace-o-aces  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:19:24pm
261
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:21:31pm

re: #247 Bass Reeves

…

…JFC, the United States has been behind the power curve on EVERY moral decision since its inception. Every. Single. One. Blacks, Women, LGBTQ, Guns. You name it, we excused it until 20 years past the point of insanity.

And we lead the world in gun deaths which puts us behind another moral curve and some of it still smacks of bigotry and racism.

262
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:23:20pm

re: #256 ObserverArt

Looks like the museum guard is admiring the cute little one too.

I know. Everything about that is totes adorbs. That little girls face melts me.

263
Blind Frog Belly White  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:24:57pm

The thing is, ‘Keep NV Blue’ is right, and Tom’s response is ALMOST right. He’s right that what he calls ‘Identity Politics’ by minorities is a big part of why we have Trump. The thing he misses is that ‘Identity Politics’ is not just nonwhite nonmale nonstraight nonChristian people demanding rights, but also the long, long history of white male straight Christian people identifying them as ‘Different’ and treating them as less deserving.

264
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:25:50pm

With respect to Trump, I think what he represents has to be exposed. I think we have to go after him to show a whole lot of Republicans what a sham their party is. He represents everything Ryan, McConnell, and numerous other Republicans are and what they want to do to the country. His only difference is that he doesn’t do it discretely. I think people have to find out how willing he, and Republicans, is to sell the country. And Nunes is one of the best ties to the rest of the shitshow.

265
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:26:00pm

re: #256 ObserverArt

Oh I just love him being a witness in the photo.
The whole thing is perfect.

266
Ace-o-aces  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:26:21pm
267
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:27:02pm

re: #254 Blind Frog Belly White

There is a Twitter discussion between Josh Marshall and Tom Nichols, which is interesting, mostly for Nichols being eyerollingly obtuse.

Isn’t he always?

I’ve never understood his point because often he seems to have a difficult time forming one.

268
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:27:06pm

re: #255 Belafon

“Democrats passed Medicare and Medicaid, which have benefited whites greatly to this day. Then they passed the CRA and VRA, and whites left the party.”

No discussion of whites and Democrats can occur without reconciling this.

In no universe have whites left the Democratic Party. The Dem/GOP split is 40%-49%.
Even in the South, it’s 34%-55%.

people-press.org

269
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:27:25pm

re: #247 Bass Reeves

JFC, the United States has been behind the power curve on EVERY moral decision since its inception. Every. Single. One. Blacks, Women, LGBTQ, Guns. You name it, we excused it until 20 years past the point of insanity.

The one time we beat the rest of the world - electing a minority member to the leadership position - the right flipped out.

270
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:27:51pm

re: #263 Blind Frog Belly White

Democrats who decided that working class whites were no longer as important to them* as identity politics.

*He means Democrats refused to lie about having a simple, easy solution (like blaming immigrants and foreigners) for people who lost their jobs because of structural economic changes.

271
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:27:58pm
272
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:28:43pm

re: #266 Ace-o-aces

I hope Trump on his diet feels like I did when I was dieting. That’s the second best curse I know.

273
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:29:00pm

re: #268 Decatur Deb

In no universe have whites left the Democratic Party. The Dem/GOP split is 40%-49%.
Even in the South, it’s 34%-55%.

people-press.org

You’re right, a little hyperbolic. But enough of them left the party after the VRA/CRA that Democrats have never won a majority of them since the late 60s.

274
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:30:40pm

re: #259 Bass Reeves

It wasn’t a strong, single nation. It was a nation with a high manufacturing base. Jim Crow, reservations, and internment camps should have disabused you of that idea.

People from Tuskegee, from the Navajo reservations, and Manzanar felt united enough to die proudly in that War.

No, I’m looking at the majority of white Southerners after the Civil War as morally children, whose primary motivation is fear of punishment. If it took a thousand years for them to get to an actual sense of ethics, oh well.

How long it will take depends on the path we take right now.

275
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:30:46pm

re: #266 Ace-o-aces

You’re a doctor, so I trust you reasoning.

276
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:33:18pm
277
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:33:35pm

re: #259 Bass Reeves

No, I’m looking at the majority of white Southerners after the Civil War as morally children, whose primary motivation is fear of punishment. If it took a thousand years for them to get to an actual sense of ethics, oh well.

The South after the civil war was simply not fit for democratic self rule. Likewise with Republicans of today.

That’s quite the political paradox for someone like me who knows of no political system better than representative democracy.

278
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:33:35pm

re: #260 Ace-o-aces

279
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:34:13pm

re: #264 Belafon

With respect to Trump, I think what he represents has to be exposed. I think we have to go after him to show a whole lot of Republicans what a sham their party is. He represents everything Ryan, McConnell, and numerous other Republicans are and what they want to do to the country. His only difference is that he doesn’t do it discretely. I think people have to find out how willing he, and Republicans, is to sell the country. And Nunes is one of the best ties to the rest of the shitshow.

Entirely agree he must be exposed, deposed, and made to stipulate—if need be as the price of freedom. I want his maladministration ended. After that I don’t care if he dies in a golden bed or a refrigerator box.

280
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:34:24pm
281
Citizen K  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:34:48pm

re: #263 Blind Frog Belly White

[Embedded content]

The thing is, ‘Keep NV Blue’ is right, and Tom’s response is ALMOST right. He’s right that what he calls ‘Identity Politics’ by minorities is a big part of why we have Trump. The thing he misses is that ‘Identity Politics’ is not just nonwhite nonmale nonstraight nonChristian people demanding rights, but also the long, long history of white male straight Christian people identifying them as ‘Different’ and treating them as less deserving.

It’s like every other carping about “identity politics”, where it completely ignores that there’s any sort of the same on the other side, precisely because ‘white’ is so consistently treated as the default, and anything that strays from it somehow exotic and ‘wrong’.

282
MsJ  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:35:15pm

re: #272 EPR-radar

I hope Trump on his diet feels like I did when I was dieting. That’s the second best curse I know.

You don’t have the nuclear codes.

283
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:36:04pm

Crowdfunded grief money. What a fuckin’ world we live in.

284
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:36:24pm

re: #282 MsJ

You don’t have the nuclear codes.

But Hair Furor has to have the strength to snap open the biscuit….

285
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:36:38pm
286
Hecuba's daughter  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:37:59pm

re: #257 Kragar

Ryan Fournier
✔
@RyanAFournier
Why do I ‘need’ to own an AR-15? - Why did Rosa Parks ‘need’ to sit in the front of the bus?

In a free nation, there is no requirement to show ‘need’ to exercise a constitutional right.
7:49 PM - Mar 2, 2018
364 364 Replies 2,232 2,232 Retweets 5,360 5,360 likes

My NRA fanatic acquaintance describes himself as a civil right activist solely based on his efforts to expand gun rights and eliminate any attempts at gun control.

287
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:41:14pm

Turnabout is fair play

Mark Hurwitt
288
Citizen K  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:41:59pm

re: #286 Hecuba’s daughter

My NRA fanatic acquaintance describes himself as a civil right activist solely based on his efforts to expand gun rights and eliminate any attempts at gun control.

Because everyone knows how often gun owners are discriminated against just for owning a gun, right?….

289
Jay C  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:42:38pm

re: #245 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Isn’t this tunnel project the same one that the Obama Admin proposed back in 2010 (?) - and then-Gov. Christie torpedoed? On the dubious grounds that he didn’t want the Feds to stick NJ with the bills for maintaining the new tunnel (after the G spent (?)$5B (?) building it)?
Of course, the real “reason” was “Fuck Obama”, but never mind….

290
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:43:31pm
291
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:44:19pm

I just realized that the reasoning of WF Buckley’s most famous turd “Why the South must prevail” could have just as logically been used to justify ‘enlightened’ military rule of the south, until such time as genuine cultural equality prevails between occupier and occupied.

292
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:44:28pm

And, Yes, of course, Roundabout is also fair play

Yes - Roundabout

293
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:44:37pm

re: #277 EPR-radar

The South after the civil war was simply not fit for democratic self rule. Likewise with Republicans of today….

Check and see how close Lincoln came to losing his re-election, in the North. Only Sherman saved him.

294
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:44:56pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

Entirely agree he must be exposed, deposed, and made to stipulate—if need be as the price of freedom. I want his maladministration ended. After that I don’t care if he dies in a golden bed or a refrigerator box.

He can have a damn ClubFed stay. Just so long it is punishment and he is made an example. Example is real important.

295
Eclectic Cyborg  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:45:01pm

re: #289 Jay C

That’s yet another problem with Trump. He’s convinced that Obama fucked up whatever he touched so he eliminates or curtails everything the last President did. This is what happens when we put a vindictive motherfucker in the White house.

296
EPR-radar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:45:59pm

re: #293 Decatur Deb

Check and see how close Lincoln came to losing his re-election, in the North. Only Sherman saved him.

We are both correct, which is why this is so difficult. The votes are never there to really clear out the festering gangrene.

297
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:46:42pm

re: #294 ObserverArt

He can have a damn ClubFed stay. Just so long it is punishment and he is made an example. Example is real important.

More a “Truth and Reconciliation” type, myself.

298
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:48:41pm

re: #296 EPR-radar

We are both correct, which is why this is so difficult. The votes are never there to really clear out the festering gangrene.

Basically, nobody in 1864 was ready for fair, just democratic rule. Maybe not in 1944, either.

299
nowherenorth2  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:48:51pm

re: #292 De Kolta Chair

This guy….this guy gets my mood tonight while restringing guitars

300
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:49:20pm

They scream “identity politics,” I hear “white resentment.” Why? Because the people screaming those words the loudest are predominately white, middle to upper class, educated, and isolated in majority-white states/neighborhoods that totally restrict their worldview to the “suffering” of the guy next door. To many of them, the problem is that the DNC isn’t the liberal mirror of the GOP, a party devoted wholly to fixing the “problems” of white Americans through liberal means rather than being a party of equality and liberty for all.

301
Kragar  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:49:21pm
302
retired cynic  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:51:10pm

re: #301 Kragar

Why would anyone believe Nunes’s statement about his daughter is true?

303
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:51:26pm

Guinness Time.

304
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:51:29pm

re: #284 The Major

But Hair Furor has to have the strength to snap open the biscuit….

Hmmm. I think I did an old P’shop that might need to be reviewed.

Ahh…yes. Here it is.

AmeriKa is for AmeriKans…there is no room for Muslims. This is for our own protection. We will do what we need to do to stop this invasion. I will use any SOLUTION to stop them!
305
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:52:37pm

re: #303 Decatur Deb

Guinness Time.

306
Bass Reeves  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:53:45pm

re: #298 Decatur Deb

So…that ends the experiment, better luck next time. But then, my lineage is on the other side of that particular power dynamic.

307
allegro  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:55:22pm

re: #295 Eclectic Cyborg

That’s yet another problem with Trump. He’s convinced that Obama fucked up whatever he touched so he eliminates or curtails everything the last President did. This is what happens when we put a vindictive motherfucker in the White house.

I think the truth is that Trump knows that Obama was golden in his successes and that’s why he needs so desperately to destroy him and everything he did. He will never be anywhere near the man that Obama is and it is eating him alive.

308
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:55:43pm

re: #304 ObserverArt

His weird folded comb-over stays strange, even after all the exposure its gotten.

309
Scout  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:56:03pm

Apropos of nothing, I’m watching the MST3K episode “Pod People.”

This is the one with the famous riff: “Trumpy, you can do stupid things.”

310
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:57:25pm

re: #306 Bass Reeves

So…that ends the experiment, better luck next time. But then, my lineage is on the other side of that particular power dynamic.

It never ends. La lotta continua.

311
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 7:57:44pm

re: #297 Decatur Deb

More a “Truth and Reconciliation” type, myself.

If you can get to the truth. If you can’t, there will be no reconciliation.

Too many still deny the truth.

Sort of what got us here, no?

312
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:00:53pm

re: #299 nowherenorth2

Agreed. Very talented guy, that guy. ＼(☆o◎)／

313
Kragar  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:01:34pm

re: #309 Scout

314
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:01:43pm

I love listening to black people at LGF. It’s no bullshit, passionate, and positive/funny. The LGF African-American contingent is on top of things. My honkey cracker-ass ski bum motherfucker had to say that.

315
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:02:46pm

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

316
Citizen K  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:03:12pm

re: #315 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

“Lost”?

He had it recently?

317
goddamnedfrank  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:03:21pm

re: #216 MsJ

Trolling level Master.

[Embedded content]

It’s weird that he thought this was a good tweet because as a US House Rep his job has fuck all to do with setting individual State tax rates? But he did make things worse for Californians by helping repeal the SALT deduction.

318
SteelPH  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:03:50pm

re: #315 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

You seem to be under the impression that he ever had one.

319
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:04:12pm

re: #316 Citizen K

Now I see I’m half-quoting an Obama admin. official from the story.

320
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:04:22pm

re: #262 MsJ

I know. Everything about that is totes adorbs. That little girls face melts me.

It’s a “Norman Rockwell”, or a “Simmie Knox”.

321
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:05:15pm

re: #315 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

He’s a JAG-officer.

322
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:06:50pm

Nararator: “In the long run, the nuclear war on the Korean Peninsula began the first nuclear winter which ultimately scoured life from the surface of the Earth, leading to the rise of superior forms protected in the sulfur vents in the deep oceans.”

323
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:06:57pm

re: #303 Decatur Deb

Guinness Time.

Dragon’s Milk for me.

324
ObserverArt  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:07:08pm

re: #321 Decatur Deb

He’s a JAG-officer.

Who has turned into a JAG-off.

(Sorry.)

325
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:07:15pm

re: #313 Kragar

Shame on you for making fun of such great heroic legends such as Dr. Forrester and TV’s Frank!

On second thought, screw those guys and BRING ME DOWN!

326
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:07:19pm

Nararator must be a sulfur vent life narrator.

327
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:07:56pm

re: #324 ObserverArt

Who has turned into a JAG-off.

(Sorry.)

Here, let me serve you another.

328
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:09:04pm

re: #315 jaunte

329
The Ghost of a Flea  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:09:26pm

re: #326 jaunte

Nararator must be a sulfur vent life narrator.

Can’t trust them sulfur-vent types. They often exclude the important contributions to post-apocalyptic culture made by man-roaches and glowing, screaming goat skeletons.

Gentrifying bastards.

330
Kragar  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:09:55pm

re: #325 De Kolta Chair

331
Scout  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:10:30pm

re: #315 jaunte

What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Close to 10 million people in Seoul — acceptable collateral damage.
Over 35 million people in the Kanto plain — acceptable collateral damage.

332
teleskiguy  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:10:30pm

re: #329 The Ghost of a Flea

Can’t trust them sulfur-vent types. They often exclude the important contributions to post-apocalyptic culture made by man-roaches and glowing, screaming goat skeletons.

Gentrifying bastards.

What about the hyper-evolved *bugs*?

333
The Ghost of a Flea  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:10:41pm

re: #329 The Ghost of a Flea

Like hipster racists, but able to withstand 14.5 pounds per square inch water pressure.

334
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:11:29pm

re: #315 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

The full headline is “Lindsay Graham: War with North Korea would be ‘worth it’ in the long run because nobody wants to vote against the ‘war party’ when our boys are dying overseas.”

Seriously, this part right here:

“All the damage that would come from a war would be worth it in terms of long-term stability and national security,” the senator told CNN.

Shows that Graham and other warhawks did not learn a fucking think from the last two decades. To them, Iraq and Afghanistan have been amazing success stories and the endless fighting against groups like Al-Q and ISIS just background noise now.

335
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:12:26pm

re: #334 Targetpractice

in terms of long-term stability

Consider the galactic insanity of just that fragment.

336
FormerDirtDart 🍕🐀  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:12:37pm
337
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:13:21pm

re: #335 jaunte

That’s me right now… trying to do that. Fuckin A.

338
Targetpractice  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:14:41pm

Because there are really few things as “stable” as a massive military regime served by a nationwide cult of personality suddenly rendered leaderless. I can’t possibly see North Korea turning into a massive clusterfuck.

//////////

339
Charles Johnson  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:14:46pm
340
Joe Bacon 🌹  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:14:55pm

re: #71 Barefoot Grin

I think misogynist name-calling as terrible, too. But can I still call Ari a “dickhead”?

[Embedded content]

I refer to Ari as the 21st Century reincarnation of Judah Benjamin…

341
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:14:56pm

re: #286 Hecuba’s daughter

My NRA fanatic acquaintance describes himself as a civil right activist solely based on his efforts to expand gun rights and eliminate any attempts at gun control.

I’m a contrarian wrt the 2A and “need”
As long as the 2a is interpreted as it is and not superceded, need doesn’t enter into it and is a loser counter argument.

It doesn’t matter why someone wants or needs a gun. You don’t have to prove a need and the Constitution doesn’t require one.

You might have to justify a ccw permit.

342
austin_blue  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:15:30pm

re: #307 allegro

I think the truth is that Trump knows that Obama was golden in his successes and that’s why he needs so desperately to destroy him and everything he did. He will never be anywhere near the man that Obama is and it is eating him alive.

I think this a cogent comment. Ever since the night that Obama ripped him a new asshole, Drumpf has been planning his revenge. The problem is, he’s not really good at it, and it frustrates him.

He has no real knowledge of how government works. Nobody really trusts him, because he is a loose cannon, always, and he has no concept of a what he wants policy to be from one day to the next.

He is Captain Chaos. Nobody respects him. He has no gravitas. He doesn’t even understand the concept of the President of the United States having gravitas and how crucial it is.

He is, at his core, a small little man desperately afraid of being called out as a small little man.

The consequences of which are, frankly, terrifying. He could do anything.

343
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:16:20pm

WAR, THE STABILITY-MAKER.

344
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:17:22pm

re: #290 teleskiguy

This works out to six lies, every day, since January 20, 2017.

That’s 407 consecutive days of Trump lying six times a day.

What a devastating review of trump and the Congress that is letting him get away with this

Nope
Nothing to see here

345
retired cynic  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:19:10pm

re: #344 dangerman

What a devastating review of trump and the Congress that is letting him get away with this

Nope
Nothing to see here

The Congress. There it is.

346
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:19:18pm

re: #300 Targetpractice

They scream “identity politics,” I hear “white resentment.” Why? Because the people screaming those words the loudest are predominately white, middle to upper class, educated, and isolated in majority-white states/neighborhoods that totally restrict their worldview to the “suffering” of the guy next door. To many of them, the problem is that the DNC isn’t the liberal mirror of the GOP, a party devoted wholly to fixing the “problems” of white Americans through liberal means rather than being a party of equality and liberty for all.

347
The Ghost of a Flea  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:19:37pm

re: #342 austin_blue

I think this a cogent comment. Ever since the night that Obama ripped him a new asshole, Drumpf has been planning his revenge. The problem is, he’s not really good at it, and it frustrates him.

He has no real knowledge of how government works. Nobody really trusts him, because he is a loose cannon, always, and he has no concept of a what he wants policy to be from one day to the next.

He is Captain Chaos. Nobody respects him. He has no gravitas. He doesn’t even understand the concept of the President of the United States having gravitas and how crucial it is.

He is, at his core, a small little man desperately afraid of being called out as a small little man.

The consequences of which are, frankly, terrifying. He could do anything.

Never frighten a small man. He’ll kill you.

—Heinlein

348
The Major  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:21:55pm

re: #343 jaunte

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition:
34 “War is good for business.”
5 “Peace is good for business.”
76 “Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the Hell out of your enemies.

349
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:22:08pm

re: #307 allegro

I think the truth is that Trump knows that Obama was golden in his successes and that’s why he needs so desperately to destroy him and everything he did. He will never be anywhere near the man that Obama is and it is eating him alive.

Obama was golden
AND trump is miserable and hates this job
He is so badly fucking up everything he touches
He knows the polling, he can’t sway it and it’s eating him up

350
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:24:56pm

re: #330 Kragar

You dA Best KRagAr (sorry, my keyboard is trying to take over the entire universe, but what the hey, somebody’s gotta bend the knee to almighty QWERTYUIOP amirite).

351
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:27:42pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

Entirely agree he must be exposed, deposed, and made to stipulate—if need be as the price of freedom. I want his maladministration ended. After that I don’t care if he dies in a golden bed or a refrigerator box.

I think he has to be impeached and convicted. I also think he and those around him have to pay for selling out the country monetarily. He, and his children either come out of this penniless and live in cardboard boxes or live in a box with scheduled exercise.

352
Belafon  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:33:34pm
353
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:34:35pm
354
Varek Raith  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:36:28pm

re: #353 jaunte

[Embedded content]

-_-

355
Mattand  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:36:37pm

So I’m watching the 11th Hour and they’re showing clips of Megyn “Hey, my decade at Fox News was just satire” Kelly’s interview of Putin.

While I do appreciate any journalist standing up to Putin, two things immediately run through my mind:

1) If Megs were still at her old gig, she’d be taking it easy on Vlad. I’m sure there’s plenty of video of her comparing Obama unfavorably to him.

2) We’re probably going to have to put with another round of the media lionizing Kelly as Super Reporter, while conveniently forgetting her shitty GOP propaganda past.

So… how’s everyone else doing?

356
jaunte  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:36:44pm

Constitution was written perfectly and doesn’t need changing!!! Every amendment was perfect in the original!!!!

357
Stanley Sea  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:37:04pm

re: #297 Decatur Deb

More a “Truth and Reconciliation” type, myself.

South Africa is the model.

PHjmw3tsM/p+BWqMNgcTh5vRQddF3JJzVZPCN1L3SZPQiT/L6mhmqiROrBbhxLBCek6oD0NMpDi7wryEPikwEDaqoi7qHsD/cxz2lF4SUh0mVvoxl/Em4BmxqOt4PS910j/ahe/VLKYAfeqxGi6E0duri/bfkU7wVx0dNzBITi+HUxQOPI2st34P9pyV0Xnu5cgQMWyoQPa9WsCgsOXOl3f1tz6zO6lX4ZGC0l4ZvHrXXq47hYp07/Wgxusw3vCicYZldIm299u96Dw39m+WRD2a7mBrHZbgrD7ZyRO+ImguCC32mIpzwd6gf0FFrEDcLhLRJxtuqlgs8TO0iFA2UkjsP0UA6SE8uBjRjPneLHJ9yLkjZwmq6dzwpfGiygCXcLsV8Gff/7UY5D6omM3k8bym0b6gbKbWGXCWE1UIh8A=

358
dangerman  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:38:29pm

re: #356 jaunte

Constitution was written perfectly and doesn’t need changing!!! Every amendment was perfect in the original!!!!

Even that one we changed and then changed back

359
whitebeach  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:40:59pm

re: #247 Bass Reeves

Assumes a change of heart in a people who fought a war to *keep* slavery. How is a generation going to make them give up what they were willing to kill to keep? What was going to change in the economic composition of the South to not make them reliant on a cheap labor force?

Uh, sure. The problem is that the US was willing to prioritize the growth and repair of the south over the humanity of non-whites. We’re talking about making people feel the consquences of their action, and saying it would have been harder for the South to recover from the Civil War if we didn’t turn a blind eye to them lynching folks for another 80 years isn’t a great argument.

We’re still seeing deep resentment of the North because of the Lost Cause bullshit (aka they’re delusional), because we didn’t put the former Confederacy’s nose into the dirt until they were willing to TREAT EVERYONE AS A HUMAN BEING. JFC, the United States has been behind the power curve on EVERY moral decision since its inception. Every. Single. One. Blacks, Women, LGBTQ, Guns. You name it, we excused it until 20 years past the point of insanity.

QFFT.

360
De Kolta Chair  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:41:29pm

Apropos of nothing and as much as I worship Jack Kirby, Marie Severin and Jim Steranko, I believe in my inkstained heart that Steve Ditko was the most talented penciller of the Marvel Silver Age. Just look at that Ditko panel below; that is some crazy shite no?

361
JordanRules  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:44:46pm

re: #359 whitebeach

We got served some great, great stuff tonight.

362
sagehen  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:46:41pm

re: #315 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Lindsey Graham has lost his damn mind.

“Worth it” for WHO?!?

363
austin_blue  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:49:06pm

re: #355 Mattand

So I’m watching the 11th Hour and they’re showing clips of Megyn “Hey, my decade at Fox News was just satire” Kelly’s interview of Putin.

While I do appreciate any journalist standing up to Putin, two things immediately run through my mind:

1) If Megs were still at her old gig, she’d be taking it easy on Vlad. I’m sure there’s plenty of video of her comparing Obama unfavorably to him.

2) We’re probably going to have to put with another round of the media lionizing Kelly as Super Reporter, while conveniently forgetting her shitty GOP propaganda past.

So… how’s everyone else doing?

We’re doing well! The kitchen redo is proceeding (slowly) apace and She Who Must Be Obeyed is going up to Arkysaw tomorrow for a week of concerts.

Our kin in the UK are get blasted by a ridiculous three-directional (east, northwest, and south) convergence of winter hell, but by the time we fly to the UK in mid-march for three weeks, it should return to the norm of cold rain, gray skies, low wind chills. Right now it’s a snowpocalypse.

364
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:55:29pm

re: #363 austin_blue

Do you buy British pounds before you go over. The AAA rate I got was about .10 cents over day of rate.

365
whitebeach  Mar 2, 2018 • 8:57:58pm

re: #298 Decatur Deb

Basically, nobody in 1864 was ready for fair, just democratic rule. Maybe not in 1944, either.

Deb, I luv ya, but I gotta point out that a whole shitload of Americans in 1864 and 1944 and in fact to this day would have given damn near anything, and sometimes gave everything, reaching and hoping and praying for “fair, just democratic rule.” The trouble was that these people weren’t “white.”

And before you tell me about the psychology of the zeitgeist or whatever, let me point out that in Louisiana in the early 1890s there were more than 120,000 black voters. After the Jim Crow state constitution passed in, I think, 1898, there were 1,300 black voters.

366
Archangelus  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:01:46pm
367
Stanley Sea  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:03:38pm

re: #365 whitebeach

Deb, I luv ya, but I gotta point out that a whole shitload of Americans in 1864 and 1944 and in fact to this day would have given damn near anything, and sometimes gave everything, reaching and hoping and praying for “fair, just democratic rule.” The trouble was that these people weren’t “white.”

And before you tell me about the psychology of the zeitgeist or whatever, let me point out that in Louisiana in the early 1890s there were more than 120,000 black voters. After the John Crow state constitution passed in, I think, 1898, there were 1,300 black voters.

I assume you mean Jim, but please, if there’s an easy link for this, I need it.

368
austin_blue  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:04:51pm

re: #364 prairiefire

Do you buy British pounds before you go over. The AAA rate I got was about .10 cents over day of rate.

Nope. Debit cards in ATMs.

369
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:04:55pm

re: #365 whitebeach

Deb, I luv ya, but I gotta point out that a whole shitload of Americans in 1864 and 1944 and in fact to this day would have given damn near anything, and sometimes gave everything, reaching and hoping and praying for “fair, just democratic rule.” The trouble was that these people weren’t “white.”

And before you tell me about the psychology of the zeitgeist or whatever, let me point out that in Louisiana in the early 1890s there were more than 120,000 black voters. After the John Crow state constitution passed in, I think, 1898, there were 1,300 black voters.

How much better would they have fared as the very visible wards of a multi-generation military occupation? We’re wandering in alternate history.

(Zeitgeisting and all, but I don’t think even they would have sought the fair/just definition that Marshal Reeves proposed above in 359.)

370
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:07:29pm

re: #368 austin_blue

Nope. Debit cards in ATMs.

Even at poor rates, I always landed in a strange country with $50 in local small bills. Sometimes I had to arrange it weeks ahead at our rural bank. It served me well when things went to shit.

371
prairiefire  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:10:02pm

re: #368 austin_blue

Nope. Debit cards in ATMs.

“The Pound, she goin’ down!” Currently 1.3799

372
whitebeach  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:11:47pm

re: #367 Stanley Sea

Thanks, Sea. Typo corrected. I’ll locate the source for the voter count and pass it on. I may have it on my shelves or otherwise easily to hand. It was a striking stat, and a matter of public record, as well as being pretty obvious from all that followed up to circa 1965.

373
austin_blue  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:13:55pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

Even at poor rates, I always landed in a strange country with $50 in local small bills. Sometimes I had to arrange it weeks ahead at our rural bank. It served me well when things went to shit.

Globalization! Money is transparent.

Oh, and I thought whitebeach was spot on with the comment at #365. I don’t downding posters at this site unless they’re obvious trolls, so I didn’t ding yours, but she made a very powerful point, IMO.

374
Slump-chan  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:20:40pm

re: #353 jaunte

Somebody doesn’t seem to know what an amendment is.

375
whitebeach  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:21:40pm

re: #369 Decatur Deb

How much better would they have fared as the very visible wards of a multi-generation military occupation? We’re wandering in alternate history.

(Zeitgeisting and all, but I don’t think even they would have sought the fair/just definition that Marshal Reeves proposed above in 359.)

IMHO, the fabled forty acres and a mule for each freed slave, with some reasonable Federal influence against white southerners’ robbing back this land in some way, would have allowed the freedmen to fare reasonably well. Especially if the national government had actually protected their constitutional rights as citizens, in particular the right to vote.

It’s only alternative history because the racist power game made it so.

376
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:34:37pm

re: #375 whitebeach

IMHO, the fabled forty acres and a mule for each freed slave, with some reasonable Federal influence against white southerners’ robbing back this land in some way, would have allowed the freedmen to fare reasonably well. Especially if the national government had actually protected their constitutional rights as citizens, in particular the right to vote.

It’s only alternative history because the racist power game made it so.

Unless the Union Army was able to quarter troops in every burg, the freedmen would have been scapegoated in every place they weren’t an armed majority. Here, a re-enfranchised white power structure called “The Bourbons” tried a number of measures to re-enslave the minority before evolving sharecropping. (The Bourbons fought against the early Klan whose exclusionist goals would have deprived them of skilled labor.) Reconstruction was lifted too soon, but it was never going to be a long-term answer if it relied on Federal troops and LE. Whatever was dealt out to the “treasonous” rebels was definitely going to fall on the ex-slaves as soon as the occupation was lifted. And that happened rapidly and harshly enough without revenge policies.

377
sagehen  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:37:13pm

re: #376 Decatur Deb

Unless the Union Army was able to quarter troops in every burg, the freedmen would have been scapegoated in every place they weren’t an armed majority. Here, a re-enfranchised white power structure called “The Bourbons” tried a number of measures to re-enslave the minority before evolving sharecropping. (The Bourbons fought against the early Klan whose exclusionist goals would have deprived them of skilled labor.) Reconstruction was lifted too soon, but it was never going to be a long-term answer if it relied on Federal troops and LE. Whatever was dealt out to the “treasonous” rebels was definitely going to fall on the ex-slaves as soon as the occupation was lifted. And that happened rapidly and harshly enough without revenge policies.

um… the Civil Rights Act of 1875, as enforced militarily by President Grant, if they’d had another couple of years….

378
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:43:23pm

re: #377 sagehen

um… the Civil Rights Act of 1875, as enforced militarily by President Grant, if they’d had another couple of years….

And if they could actually enforce it. The Union army almost dissolved after the war, with barely enough troops and structure to screw over the plains tribes. It was a draft Army, barely held together “For the Duration”.

In the later case of a lynching in Chattanooga, the local sheriff explicitly defied the Supreme Court justice who had intervened, saying “Come and get him”.

379
whitebeach  Mar 2, 2018 • 9:55:27pm

re: #376 Decatur Deb

Unless the Union Army was able to quarter troops in every burg, the freedmen would have been scapegoated in every place they weren’t an armed majority. Here, a re-enfranchised white power structure called “The Bourbons” tried a number of measures to re-enslave the minority before evolving sharecropping. (The Bourbons fought against the early Klan whose exclusionist goals would have deprived them of skilled labor.) Reconstruction was lifted too soon, but it was never going to be a long-term answer if it relied on Federal troops and LE. Whatever was dealt out to the “treasonous” rebels was definitely going to fall on the ex-slaves as soon as the occupation was lifted. And that happened rapidly and harshly enough without revenge policies.

As always I respect what you say, but I know the history of all this pretty well myself. I think it’s pretty clear that if the North had, in the early postwar years, enforced a policy of reparations and actual equality for freed slaves, and also for free blacks from before the war, a great deal of what you suggest, which of course did happen, could have been prevented. It wouldn’t have required troops in every hamlet, but simply punishment for some of the more egregious offenses against law and justice. I could name off the top of my head three large-scale massacres of blacks and white sympathizers in Louisiana alone before the end of Reconstruction that, if the offenders had been convicted of their crimes, might have made a large difference in ensuing history.

380
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 10:04:23pm

re: #379 whitebeach

As always I respect what you say, but I know the history of all this pretty well myself. I think it’s pretty clear that if the North had, in the early postwar years, enforced a policy of reparations and actual equality for freed slaves, and also for free blacks from before the war, a great deal of what you suggest, which of course did happen, could have been prevented. It wouldn’t have required troops in every hamlet, but simply punishment for some of the more egregious offenses against law and justice. I could name off the top of my head three large-scale massacres of blacks and white sympathizers in Louisiana alone before the end of Reconstruction that, if the offenders had been convicted of their crimes, might have made a large difference in ensuing history.

Depending on the sympathies of local commanders, I suspect we could find many instances of trial and punishment in the period. In the end, the goal of “Saving the Union” was incompatible with a long harsh colonization of the ex-confederate states. We still haven’t quite got them back as it is.

381
Decatur Deb  Mar 2, 2018 • 10:10:03pm

Long past bedtime in CST. ‘Nite, all.

382
lawhawk  Mar 3, 2018 • 6:41:21am

re: #289 Jay C

Isn’t this tunnel project the same one that the Obama Admin proposed back in 2010 (?) - and then-Gov. Christie torpedoed? On the dubious grounds that he didn’t want the Feds to stick NJ with the bills for maintaining the new tunnel (after the G spent (?)$5B (?) building it)?
Of course, the real “reason” was “Fuck Obama”, but never mind….

Christie killed the ARC project and used the fully funded project to help fund road rebuilding projects, like the Pulaski skyway project. He also paid a penalty for canceling the project under the federal laws. ARC was about $9 billion, and I actually agreed with canceling it because while the tunnels were critical, how they did the destination in NYC was not.

ARC would have built a new terminal under 34th street, instead of through running tracks that would truly have increased capacity. There were no tail tracks or links back to Sunnyside so any train going into ARC would have to go right back out to NJ. That was capacity limiting as well.

Gateway has the benefit of through running tracks that increase capacity both in and out of NYC going to Long Island and up to Boston as well as to NJ and DC and beyond.

The problem with Gateway is again cost of building not the tunnels, but the stations.

Gateway includes the tunnels and Portal Bridge replacement. That’s absolutely essential. The cost could be limited by strictly focusing on the tunnels and bridges. We’d get the capacity improvements, but to improve Penn Station would mean rejiggering platforms and track configurations, and that’s doable - and at less cost than what is proposed.


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