Video: A Beautifully Drawn Visual History of Light

Arts • Views: 32,087

Vimeo

400,000 years ago, humans and Neanderthals discovered fire. This ignited a relationship between people and photons that changed the course of mankind—and continues to evolve to this day. Take a tour through the visual history of light.

Find a detailed timeline of light inventions throughout humanity here: theatlantic.com

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316 comments

1
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 6:18:41pm

Technically, Neandertals were humans, just a different subspecies of hominids from Homo sapiens. The Atlantic needs to brush up on their biology.
en.wikipedia.org

2
Dave In Austin  May 26, 2018 • 6:25:06pm

The good Senator can hardly keep it in……

3
austin_blue  May 26, 2018 • 6:26:34pm

And most modern humans carry scraps of the Neanderthal genome. We interbred with them. Very close cousins.

4
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 6:31:14pm

re: #3 austin_blue

And most modern humans carry scraps of the Neanderthal genome. We interbred with them. Very close cousins.

Mostly humans of European/Eurasian descent. though. If we had been separate species (or genus), any offspring would have been infertile and their DNA would have not have survived to the present day. As it was, we were close enough genetically to produce fertile offspring.

5
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:33:28pm

Long story, got some malware, had to delete browser histories and scan and clean my computer.

So, I saw the new little window in the bottom right. Not knowing the nuances of the new EU regulations regarding how websites obtain information from its viewers, I think that’s about as concise as one can get, and there are links for more information right there.

The code to make that little thingy pop up (which it doesn’t at all if you have a subscription) must have been a bitch!

6
Belafon  May 26, 2018 • 6:39:58pm

re: #5 teleskiguy

It popped up for me, and I have one.

7
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  May 26, 2018 • 6:40:17pm

re: #5 teleskiguy

Long story, got some malware, had to delete browser histories and scan and clean my computer.

So, I saw the new little window in the bottom right. Not knowing the nuances of the new EU regulations regarding how websites obtain information from its viewers, I think that’s about as concise as one can get, and there are links for more information right there.

The code to make that little thingy pop up (which it doesn’t at all if you have a subscription) must have been a bitch!

I just now saw that window for the first time! It disappears behind the video that follows you down the screen, and I guess I’ve been scrolling down too quick.

8
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:42:19pm

re: #6 Belafon

It popped up for me, and I have one.

Hmm. I’ll do a test…

Hmm. There’s some code fu going on, ‘cause… I don’t see it in a new window.

I think Charles alluded way down in the basement that that little thingy he had to make to comply with EU regulations was a colossal pain in the ass.

9
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 6:45:04pm

re: #1 wheat-dogg

Technically, Neandertals were humans, just a different subspecies of hominids from Homo sapiens. The Atlantic needs to brush up on their biology.
en.wikipedia.org

It’s an interesting puzzle how we ended up being the only sub-species left. I tend to wonder if modern H. Sapiens actively wiped out the others the way we would spend the next 50,000 years trying to exterminate the various color variations within the one surviving branch. Between 50 kya and 1 mya there were at least five subspecies and 2 possibly distinctly other hominid species alive in Africa, Europe and Asia. The exact number is dependent on when some disappeared (Australopithicus? H. Erectus? ) and how distinct the speciation of others were. Yet now there’s only one…

10
Charles Johnson  May 26, 2018 • 6:45:45pm

re: #8 teleskiguy

Hmm. I’ll do a test…

Hmm. There’s some code fu going on, ‘cause… I don’t see it in a new window.

I think Charles alluded way down in the basement that that little thingy he had to make to comply with EU regulations was a colossal pain in the ass.

The popup notification isn’t too bad actually - the real pain in the ass is the GDPR itself. It’s like a TOS contract on steroids, written by lawyers who specialize in obfuscation and never use one clear word when they can use 12 confusing ones.

11
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:46:10pm

Oh damn. What a bummer. Something I and a lot of Lizards have endured.

12
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:48:31pm

Hunker down Houstonians!

13
Blind Frog Belly White  May 26, 2018 • 6:49:23pm

re: #4 wheat-dogg

Mostly humans of European/Eurasian descent. though. If we had been separate species (or genus), any offspring would have been infertile and their DNA would have not have survived to the present day. As it was, we were close enough genetically to produce fertile offspring.

It’s important to remember that “genus” and “species” are human inventions to try and put things into discrete categories, whether they really belong there or not. Nature doesn’t do categories, at least not as rigidly as humans like to imagine.

14
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:50:31pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

The popup notification isn’t too bad actually - the real pain the ass is the GDPR itself. It’s like a TOS contract on steroids, written by lawyers who specialize in obfuscation and never use one word when they can use 12 confusing ones.

Sounds like you had to consult actual lawyers in meatspace to grind it out. Oy!

15
Blind Frog Belly White  May 26, 2018 • 6:52:15pm

re: #9 William Lewis

It’s an interesting puzzle how we ended up being the only sub-species left. I tend to wonder if modern H. Sapiens actively wiped out the others the way we would spend the next 50,000 years trying to exterminate the various color variations within the one surviving branch. Between 50 kya and 1 mya there were at least five subspecies and 2 possibly distinctly other hominid species alive in Africa, Europe and Asia. The exact number is dependent on when some disappeared (Australopithicus? H. Erectus? ) and how distinct the speciation of others were. Yet now there’s only one…

We fucked ‘em, or we fucked ‘em up.

16
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 6:53:33pm

Here’s the vomit inducing propaganda from Fuckface Von Clownstick, him meeting with Josh Holt who after two years was freed from a Venezuela prison.

17
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 6:57:22pm

re: #6 Belafon

Me too.

18
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 6:59:35pm

re: #15 Blind Frog Belly White

We fucked ‘em, or we fucked ‘em up.

That does seem to be pretty much it.

I dearly love studying human evolution and paleo-anthropology.

19
Cheechako  May 26, 2018 • 6:59:56pm

re: #16 teleskiguy

Scrolled down a few pages of that tweet and found this:

20
teleskiguy  May 26, 2018 • 7:02:22pm

re: #19 Cheechako

Giphy

21
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 7:03:41pm

Anyone else who has an interest in human evolution, I can suggest this blog:

johnhawks.net

for keeping up with the current science in the field. John Hawks is from UW-Madison and has been involved in several major digs.

22
Backwoods_Sleuth  May 26, 2018 • 7:10:31pm

re: #6 Belafon

It popped up for me, and I have one.

me too

23
Cheechako  May 26, 2018 • 7:10:59pm

re: #22 Backwoods_Sleuth

me too

TMI

24
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 7:15:36pm

re: #21 William Lewis

Anyone else who has an interest in human evolution, I can suggest this blog:

johnhawks.net

for keeping up with the current science in the field. John Hawks is from UW-Madison and has been involved in several major digs.

I took his online human evolution course on coursera. Well worth the time.

25
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 7:18:36pm

re: #24 wheat-dogg

I took his online human evolution course on coursera. Well worth the time.

As did I. That was a heck of a lot of fun. I even bought a copy of the text book they took several of the downloads out of :) It get’s the occasional “WTF?!?” moment from visitors who see it alongside my theology books (LOL!).

26
austin_blue  May 26, 2018 • 7:27:39pm

re: #12 teleskiguy

Hunker down Houstonians!

[Embedded content]

That is a remarkably rare storm track for Texas. The last time I saw that big a complex moving S/SW like that was the Jarrell tornado back in the day.

27
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 7:31:39pm
28
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 7:33:14pm

My whole day is going like this. Just finished and put camera back.

29
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 7:40:21pm

Absolutely true!

30
austin_blue  May 26, 2018 • 7:41:15pm

TS Alberto looks pretty damn weak in Sat Imagery tonight. Good for Pensacola and Mobile.

31
TedStriker  May 26, 2018 • 7:56:56pm

re: #30 austin_blue

TS Alberto looks pretty damn weak in Sat Imagery tonight. Good for Pensacola and Mobile.

Was just in PCB for most of this week, up through Thursday; in any case, dodged a bullet.

32
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  May 26, 2018 • 8:04:54pm

Tammy Faye, RIP, was definitely the brains of that outfit.

Facebook Post

33
austin_blue  May 26, 2018 • 8:05:37pm

re: #31 TedStriker

Was just in PCB for most of this week, up through Thursday; in any case, dodged a bullet.

Not a lot of heat in the GoM yet. Get it up to 85 or 90 degrees and a system like that would go from nill to kill in 36 hours.

34
The Major  May 26, 2018 • 8:07:41pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Tammy Faye, RIP, was definitely the brains of that outfit.

Their son Jay is actually more of a Christian than his father currently is.

35
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 8:11:10pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Tammy Faye, RIP, was definitely the brains of that outfit.

[Embedded content]

9OnATTDFgGSHOoxPrIIDrUOLVtzDzE7IlD5nBJkpauV0MtuOeVzIS185UY6Qu7tvDLvXnk87/97Pnb6M8DfcYWD/Op42XY2ef5/FEmlAn023qVVzUd5VYpwLedbAkb1V5OwJizxcwilm/kSHum7fU/s6Kfymu9DegdsTZqTfitIAHQuyVrPzojsurmAGhnXmETw4Y99PJojHx9GT3VlGMzhUhdGtBlcKMmHzglQLnyC4TMtbOBpnJqfW5BPyTW8k3VqPCcLhedBfW3gROFTh7m3ROBFt+zF3YI5tCq0VUm9tK8TcCX6VrG4DTerUqU4D

36
austin_blue  May 26, 2018 • 8:11:14pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Tammy Faye, RIP, was definitely the brains of that outfit.

[Embedded content]

I’m pretty amazed that he has been able to keep the con going lo, these many years.

A useful reminder that the average IQ is 100, and half of the US population is below that.

A large minority of the population is squarely in the Idiocracy polity. And embraces it.

37
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 8:12:27pm

re: #34 The Major

Their son Jay is actually more of a Christian than his father currently is.

Not that it would take much but yes, I have heard that Jay is true to the way.

38
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 8:14:25pm

re: #37 William Lewis

Not that it would take much but yes, I have heard that Jay is true to the way.

But for every Jay there are 100 Franky Graham Crackers keeping the masses brainwashed by promising them pie in the sky when they die as long as they tithe to the racketeers, follow their Wall Street masters and vote Republican!

39
SteveMcGriftFlynnComey... ...corruptemoligate RN  May 26, 2018 • 8:25:08pm

I was wondering about something odd. If you hear a soft piece of music, like a child’s song (“I love you. You love me”…). You rock your head side to side. If you listen to head banging stuff (When I get to bottom I go round to the top”…) you rock your head fore and aft. Doing the opposite for both doesn’t work at all. Any thoughts?

40
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 8:27:47pm

re: #38 Joe Bacon 🌹

But for every Jay there are 100 Franky Graham Crackers keeping the masses brainwashed by promising them pie in the sky when they die as long as they tithe to the racketeers, follow their Wall Street masters and vote Republican!

As if I don’t know that all the way down deep in my heart? I just try to live the way. If, when what was me goes back to the universe as worm food, I have left my son and this world in a better place than I found them, then I will have lived by His will and that is something Franklin Graham can not take that away from either the Lord or me. If even one person goes on to live a better life because of help I could give? Well then, that’s real evangelism far beyond the corrupted word they try to steal. “And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”

41
Jay C  May 26, 2018 • 8:29:48pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Tammy Faye, RIP, was definitely the brains of that outfit.

[Embedded content]

If some Congressman actually had any evidence that someone was going to assassinate Trump, wouldn’t he/shouldn’t he tell someone a bit more relevant, y’know, like the Secret Service or somebody, rather than Jim Fucking Bakker??

As with most TV-preacher Pulpit Pimps, I’d give Jim Bakker a less-than-zero credibility factor, but maybe that’s just my lack of faith…
//

42
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 8:33:56pm

re: #41 Jay C

If some Congressman actually had any evidence that someone was going to assassinate Trump, wouldn’t he tell someone a bit more relevant, y’know, like the Secret Service or somebody, rather than Jim Fucking Bakker??

As with most TV-preacher Pulpit Pimps, I’d give Jim Bakker a less-than-zero credibility factor, but maybe that’s just my lack of faith…
//

Ah, but there is that “deep state” bullshit implanted in the minds of the brainwashed Trumpettes!

43
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 8:37:19pm
44
Patricia Kayden  May 26, 2018 • 8:41:30pm

re: #43 JordanRules

Hate to sound pessimistic but it appears that this country is ok with all of that. I’m not seeing much outrage over ICE or this new policy of separating children from parents. We seem to be getting numb when it comes to this administration’s outrageous conduct. I almost don’t want to ask why Congressional Dems aren’t more aggressive in opposing this. But I get that they’re in the minority.

45
The Ghost of a Flea  May 26, 2018 • 8:45:17pm

re: #42 Joe Bacon 🌹

It’s two things:

One, by accusing everyone else of being irretrievably depraved, they get to feel like whatever they did—like, say, banging their buxom secretary and funding a secretary-banging lifestyle on the parishioner’s dime—seems by comparison mere foibles.

Two, they’re not brainwashed, they’re having a great fucking time repeating this shit. Hate is fun, the power fantasy of “when we win, we’ll do horrible shit to all this deserving liberal trash” is fun. That’s it’s actual power…they’re not so scared they can’t get a tingle up their leg at the idea of license to do anything.

46
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 8:49:18pm

re: #45 The Ghost of a Flea

It’s two things:

One, by accusing everyone else of being irretrievably depraved, they get to feel like whatever they did—like, say, banging their buxom secretary and funding a secretary-banging lifestyle on the parishioner’s dime—seems by comparison mere foibles.

Two, they’re not brainwashed, they’re having a great fucking time repeating this shit. Hate is fun, the power fantasy of “when we win, we’ll do horrible shit to all this deserving liberal trash” is fun. That’s it’s actual power…they’re not so scared they can’t get a tingle up their leg at the idea of license to do anything.

Yep, that’s the usual outcome of the whole calvinist heresy - either you’re already saved and what you do doesn’t matter or your already damned and what you do doesn’t matter. The destruction of the concept of free will makes Christianity impossible.

47
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 8:56:17pm

re: #46 William Lewis

Yep, that’s the usual outcome of the whole calvinist heresy - either you’re already saved and what you do doesn’t matter or your already damned and what you do doesn’t matter. The destruction of the concept of free will makes Christianity impossible.

Add Calvinism plus Ayn Rand plus the Prosperity Gospel and you have a repulsive mix that is the Religious Right.

48
William Lewis  May 26, 2018 • 9:04:20pm

re: #47 Joe Bacon 🌹

Add Calvinism plus Ayn Rand plus the Prosperity Gospel and you have a repulsive mix that is the Religious Right.

Exactly - though the Prosperity Gospel lie is pure Calvinist in itself for in that fallacy those few who are elect (“saved”) will be shown by their god ordained prosperity. That it is utterly opposed to everything that the Rabbi from Nazareth taught is irrelevant to those who stand to gain secular power and secular wealth from it. I realize I will not be able to defeat this but I can fight it for whatever little that is worth.

49
Eclectic Cyborg  May 26, 2018 • 9:05:55pm

I believe God can make me prosperous…but I also believe it is my duty and obligation to share that prosperity with others.

50
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 9:20:20pm
51
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 9:21:05pm
52
Stanley Sea  May 26, 2018 • 9:23:45pm

re: #43 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

I’m going to throw up

53
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 9:29:29pm
54
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 9:42:46pm

Coronal rain on the Sun.

NASA SDO - Fiery Looping Rain on the Sun

55
thecommodore  May 26, 2018 • 9:43:20pm

GOHMERT! “unmasks” Mueller:

Robert Mueller: Unmasked (pdf)

56
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 9:43:30pm

re: #44 Patricia Kayden

Hate to sound pessimistic but it appears that this country is ok with all of that. I’m not seeing much outrage over ICE or this new policy of separating children from parents. We seem to be getting numb when it comes to this administration’s outrageous conduct. I almost don’t want to ask why Congressional Dems aren’t more aggressive in opposing this. But I get that they’re in the minority.

And they’re going to stay there if they don’t start fighting this criminal administration with everything they’ve got.

57
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 9:46:28pm

re: #56 Skip Intro

And they’re going to stay there if they don’t start fighting this criminal administration with everything they’ve got.

Agreed but it’s not just ‘they’, it’s ‘us’!

58
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 9:48:04pm

re: #55 thecommodore

GOHMERT! “unmasks” Mueller:

Robert Mueller: Unmasked (pdf)

Ah, I see it’s just another one of Gohmert’s Pyles…

59
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 9:49:44pm

This ole ridiculous passive aggressive ‘And I Was a Fan’ nonsense.
Maggie you are awful and complicit!

60
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 9:55:26pm

You can always count on Maggie to kiss Trump’s ass.

61
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 9:56:15pm

re: #57 JordanRules

No, it’s them. They can call news conferences, go on TV, make ads. They’re not doing any of that. They have to show the undecideds what makes them different from the Republicans and that the head of the Republican party is a pathological liar. They have to do it every single day of the week. They also have to understand that the media isn’t going to lift a finger to help them.

62
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 9:57:08pm

re: #59 JordanRules

63
DodgerFan1988  May 26, 2018 • 9:58:04pm

Move along. There’s no hate crimes here, folks. Move along, move along.

64
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 9:58:13pm

re: #59 JordanRules

I gave her a piece of my mind. Her constant excusing of Trump’s misbehavior wears thin real fast. Mags might have a different attitude about if she were, say, an African-American or Hispanic reporter, or FTM, human.

65
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:00:02pm
66
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:01:40pm

re: #61 Skip Intro

No, it’s them. They can call news conferences, go on TV, make ads. They’re not doing any of that. They have to show the undecideds what makes them different from the Republicans and that the head of the Republican party is a pathological liar. They have to do it every single day of the week. They also have to understand that the media isn’t going to lift a finger to help them.

You’re saying we don’t have to do anything as well? I just fundamentally don’t agree with that. I agree with everything you said about what the elected Dems need to do. And in saying that, WE can help them via pressure, amplification, support, innovation etc.

67
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 10:01:56pm

re: #59 JordanRules

In my browser twitter bookmarks sub-folders I have her under stenographer, not journalist.

68
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 10:02:58pm

re: #59 JordanRules

What is she babbling on about? I almost miss Maureen Dowd. Maggie combines the worst parts of MoDo and Peggy Noonan into a self righteous Trump press agent.

69
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  May 26, 2018 • 10:03:16pm

re: #48 William Lewis

Exactly - though the Prosperity Gospel lie is pure Calvinist in itself for in that fallacy those few who are elect (“saved”) will be shown by their god ordained prosperity. That it is utterly opposed to everything that the Rabbi from Nazareth taught is irrelevant to those who stand to gain secular power and secular wealth from it. I realize I will not be able to defeat this but I can fight it for whatever little that is worth.

This Rand/Calvin axis is the basis of the social structure in much of Texas. It is the real story behind the notorious “Affluenza” case. The rich can get away with things others can’t, not just because they have more resources to defend themselves and retaliate against accusers, but because they are “chosen by God” and are therefore entitled to a different, and more lax, standard. What is disheartening is how many middle and working class people go along with it. In many churches it is actually virtuous to accept this double standard and defer to “the anointed.” A rich man’s word should be accepted, not because he is telling the truth but because he is “chosen.” To a great extent, Randian politics killed social mobility in this country, but Calvinist indoctrination made it at least partially a suicide.

70
danarchy  May 26, 2018 • 10:04:44pm

re: #63 DodgerFan1988

Move along. There’s no hate crimes here, folks. Move along, move along.

[Embedded content]

I hate Illinois Nazis

71
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:05:53pm

Like who the fuck is supposed to run all the voter registration drives we need? That’s just one small example. Geez. There aren’t enough elected officials to do ALL the damn work.

72
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 10:06:05pm

re: #66 JordanRules

I’m saying that at any level above county supervisor they pay no attention to us.

73
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:06:55pm

Congratulations to the Tangerine Turd! He actually sunk below 0 on this scale!

74
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:07:23pm

re: #72 Skip Intro

I’m saying that at any level above county supervisor they pay no attention to us.

They need to do better! Totally agree. We are part of making that happen. It has to be a WE frame of mind.

75
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 10:07:32pm

re: #68 Skip Intro

What is she babbling on about? I almost miss Maureen Dowd. Maggie combines the worst parts of MoDo and Peggy Noonan into a self righteous Trump press agent.

It’s her pretense of being above pettiness, of being the “objective observer” that drives me up a wall. As my mother would have said, Maggie is putting on airs all the time. She’s as fake as the man in the Oval Office.

76
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:08:16pm

Maggie puts on errs all the time.

FIFY!

77
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:09:14pm
78
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  May 26, 2018 • 10:12:06pm

re: #73 Joe Bacon 🌹

Congratulations to the Tangerine Turd! He actually sunk below 0 on this scale!

[Embedded content]

If Andrew Johnson, Harding, Coolidge, Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushi aren’t underwater too, then this is meaningless. I mean, look where they’ve got Reagan! The asshole whose election sealed our doom!

79
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:13:16pm

He’s off to see the “Whizz-ard”!

80
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 10:14:51pm

re: #74 JordanRules

While we’re out getting people registered to vote, the GOP is working tirelessly to block that vote. The Republicans have been allowed to make non existent voter fraud into a hot button issue while the Dems stay mute. They also need to make sure that everytime the courts throw out a GOP gerrymandering scheme the voters know exactly how the GOP tries to rig the vote.

This is all politics, something they’re supposed to be good at.

81
Skip Intro  May 26, 2018 • 10:17:45pm

re: #77 JordanRules

What a horrible fraud of a woman. “Trump’s moral compass” my ass. She’s worse than her brothers.

82
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:19:49pm

What a fail!

83
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 10:20:14pm

re: #69 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

This Rand/Calvin axis is the basis of the social structure in much of Texas. It is the real story behind the notorious “Affluenza” case. The rich can get away with things others can’t, not just because they have more resources to defend themselves and retaliate against accusers, but because they are “chosen by God” and are therefore entitled to a different, and more lax, standard. What is disheartening is how many middle and working class people go along with it. In many churched, it is actually virtuous to accept this double standard and defer to “the anointed.” A rich man’s word should be accepted, not because he is telling the truth but because he is “chosen.” To a great extent, Randian politics killed social mobility in this country, but Calvinist indoctrination made it at least partially a suicide.

I follow this guy on Medium. He sometimes goes a little too far-out in his arguments to suit me, but in this piece, he hits the nail on the head.

An excerpt:

What happens when societies don’t understand all the above? Well, a strange thing has happened to the American economy. While it’s true that things like TVs and Playstations have gotten cheaper, the costs of the basics of life have skyrocketed. All the things that really elevate people’s quality of life — healthcare, finance, education, transport, housing, and so on — have come to consume such a large share of the average household’s income that they have little left to save, invest, or spend on anything else. And what’s worse, while the basics of life have seen massive inflation, wages and incomes (not to mention savings and benefits and safety nets and opportunities) for most have stagnated. The result is an economy — and a society — that’s collapsing.

And another, more pertinent to your comment:

America is pioneering a new kind of poverty. The kind of poverty that’s developed in America isn’t just bizarre and gruesome — it’s novel and unseen. It isn’t something that we understand well, economists, intellectuals, thinkers, because we have no good framework to think about it. It’s not absolute poverty like Somalia, and it’s not just relative poverty, like in gilded banana republics. It’s a uniquely American creation. It’s extreme capitalism meets Social Darwinism by way of rugged self-reliance crossed with puritanical cruelty.

He suggests this kind of poverty can still leave the USA vulnerable to autocracy, if enough people lose faith in the institutions we’ve been taught will protect us.

eand.co

And as the Trump White House gradually dismantles federal oversight of nearly everything, it wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine this discontented mob agreeing to a further “experiment” of suspending democratic government until things are “fixed.”

84
Eclectic Cyborg  May 26, 2018 • 10:27:46pm

re: #63 DodgerFan1988

Move along. There’s no hate crimes here, folks. Move along, move along.

[Embedded content]

Utterly despicable.

85
BeachDem  May 26, 2018 • 10:28:03pm

re: #75 wheat-dogg

It’s her pretense of being above pettiness, of being the “objective observer” that drives me up a wall. As my mother would have said, Maggie is putting on airs all the time. She’s as fake as the man in the Oval Office.

Chrissie was not having any of Maggie’s bullshit:

But Sopan Deb rode to the Magster’s rescue (and Chrissie wasn’t taking his shit either):

86
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:28:21pm

re: #80 Skip Intro

While we’re out getting people registered to vote, the GOP is working tirelessly to block that vote. The Republicans have been allowed to make non existent voter fraud into a hot button issue while the Dems stay mute. They also need to make sure that everytime the courts throw out a GOP gerrymandering scheme the voters know exactly how the GOP tries to rig the vote.

This is all politics, something they’re supposed to be good at.

Agree with everything and just want to stress that it’s WE. We are Democrats and interpersonal and on the ground works are important to combat the systemic advantages the GOP has.

Elected Dems have got to do soooo much better though. I fully agree with that and it’s become even more urgent and clear to me recently.

87
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:28:48pm

re: #82 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

What a fail!

This is what happens when you assign this work to an unpaid intern.

88
Eclectic Cyborg  May 26, 2018 • 10:31:17pm

re: #87 Joe Bacon 🌹

This is what happens when you assign this work to an unpaid intern.

Or an underpaid, undertrained employee.

89
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:31:37pm
90
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:33:24pm
91
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:34:55pm

re: #89 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

Receipts!

92
Dave In Austin  May 26, 2018 • 10:39:24pm
93
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:42:03pm

Oh FFS!

94
BeachDem  May 26, 2018 • 10:45:22pm

re: #93 JordanRules

Oh FFS!

[Embedded content]

He was just trying to match Maggie’s old “asterisking the hyperbole”

95
Single-handed sailor  May 26, 2018 • 10:46:44pm

re: #93 JordanRules

They are total crack whores for their access.

96
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 26, 2018 • 10:47:21pm

Bottom line—no matter what the Marmalade Shitcannon says, Maggie will continue to defend him.

97
BeachDem  May 26, 2018 • 10:52:56pm

One more Maggie shade tweet before I head to bed:

98
JordanRules  May 26, 2018 • 10:55:50pm

re: #97 BeachDem

One more Maggie shade tweet before I head to bed:

[Embedded content]

Ha! People should do song lyrics too.

99
Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel  May 26, 2018 • 10:59:21pm

re: #92 Dave In Austin

“Dumpster Fire”
“Chattel No. 9”

100
BeachDem  May 26, 2018 • 11:04:31pm

re: #98 JordanRules

Ha! People should do song lyrics too.

“Demonstrably false globular organs in the head through which people and vertebrate animals see”

101
stpaulbear  May 26, 2018 • 11:09:52pm

re: #99 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

“Dumpster Fire”
“Chattel No. 9”

Eww du jour.

102
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  May 26, 2018 • 11:17:53pm

re: #101 stpaulbear

Eww du jour.

Eau de Colon.

103
sagehen  May 26, 2018 • 11:22:17pm

re: #92 Dave In Austin

[Embedded content]

Mendacious.
Duplicitous.
Perfidious.
Insidious.

(as you may have guessed, I find -ious words ideal for perfume names.)

104
wheat-dogg  May 26, 2018 • 11:33:59pm

re: #103 sagehen

Mendacious.
Duplicitous.
Perfidious.
Insidious.

(as you may have guessed, I find -ious words ideal for perfume names.)

There’s already a perfume called Poison. So, maybe hers would be Venom?

105
Kilroy was here  May 27, 2018 • 12:57:36am

re: #99 Shiplord Kirel, Friend of Moose and Squirrel

Lieablilty

106
Kilroy was here  May 27, 2018 • 1:04:00am

The scent of Kelly Anne …. Crypt Keeper

107
Single-handed sailor  May 27, 2018 • 2:08:10am

Mockingbirds! I’m pretty sure that’s why god invented FLIR sights and Sheridan 5mm air rifles.

108
Single-handed sailor  May 27, 2018 • 2:50:04am

So, I was looking at Google Earth at Lake Shasta and I was noticing the sky…

vs

109
Single-handed sailor  May 27, 2018 • 2:57:20am

hmmmm edit delete

110
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 3:26:42am

re: #108 Single-handed sailor

Different views of the galaxy.

111
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 4:44:57am

Must be Sunday. Quiet around here.

112
I cannot.  May 27, 2018 • 5:05:40am

re: #111 wheat-dogg

*blasts the 1812 Overture*

113
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 5:08:24am

re: #112 I cannot.

LOL. I’m already awake. It’s 8 pm here.

114
Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2018 • 5:20:33am

but OF COURSE!

115
Eventual Carrion  May 27, 2018 • 5:22:06am

re: #92 Dave In Austin

[Embedded content]

Alt Ambrosia

116
jeffreyw  May 27, 2018 • 5:22:29am

Imgur


Good morning!

117
I Would Prefer Not To  May 27, 2018 • 5:34:31am

re: #79 Joe Bacon 🌹

He’s off to see the “Whizz-ard”!

[Embedded content]

Does the Cowardly Ryan have “lion eyes?”

118
Backwoods_Sleuth  May 27, 2018 • 5:35:38am
119
steve_davis  May 27, 2018 • 6:04:21am

re: #1 wheat-dogg

Technically, Neandertals were humans, just a different subspecies of hominids from Homo sapiens. The Atlantic needs to brush up on their biology.
en.wikipedia.org

“technically” hell. they bred with us. we have neanderthal genes in our DNA. If you can fuck and reproduce, you are human by any measure.

120
William Lewis  May 27, 2018 • 6:18:44am

re: #119 steve_davis

“technically” hell. they bred with us. we have neanderthal genes in our DNA. If you can fuck and reproduce, you are human by any measure.

Which is exactly one of the most interesting questions in evolution? Where do the lines get drawn for speciation?

Australopithicus & the earliest forms of Homo are certainly separate species that would not be able to interbreed. But even at the point of H. erectus I tend to wonder. I personally have very little doubt that heidelbergensis, neanderthal, Denisova hominin,& the Red Deer Cave archaic human population were all capable of interbreeding with the regular modern variety of H. sapiens. H. floresiensis is anyone’s guess. I’m inclined to think so mostly because I think late H. erectus was close enough genetically to breed with H. sapiens.

And now off to church. Later!

121
Barefoot Grin  May 27, 2018 • 6:20:20am

As some commenters note, this is probably about Hope Hicks rather than Paul Manafort.

122
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 6:23:53am

re: #121 Barefoot Grin

Won’t someone think of the children? //

123
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:25:59am
124
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 6:30:40am

re: #123 jaunte

[Embedded content]

You mean the ones who pled guilty? Yeah they’re such victims.//

125
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 6:31:48am

re: #106 Kilroy was here

The scent of Kelly Anne …. Crypt Keeper

[Embedded content]

Now I’m imagining KAC using the puns that the crypt keeper does.

126
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:31:58am

re: #124 HappyWarrior

I’m still stuck at “young and beautiful lives (and others).”

127
Hecuba's daughter  May 27, 2018 • 6:33:06am

re: #123 jaunte

Those who supported and worked for Trump deserve to have their lives ruined forever. Every single one of them should be despised and shunned by decent people everywhere.

128
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:33:28am
129
Belafon  May 27, 2018 • 6:35:52am

re: #123 jaunte

It can’t be a true witchhunt if people plead guilty. Thus, they must have been victims.

He’s trying to get ahead of the story if these convictions coming out. People need to point out he’s admitting there were convictions.

130
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 6:36:15am

re: #126 jaunte

I’m still stuck at “young and beautiful lives (and others).”

Weird phrasing, for sure. Does he mean people who were not young and beautiful?

131
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:38:20am

re: #130 wheat-dogg

Lest we forget the old and ugly!

132
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 6:39:44am

The corporate censored Pittsburgh Post Gazette refused to let Rob publish his latest cartoon!

133
Belafon  May 27, 2018 • 6:42:16am

re: #93 JordanRules

Oh FFS!

[Embedded content]

Use “little white lie” at least, dude.

134
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:48:54am
135
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 6:51:58am

re: #134 jaunte

Which is why I’ve been left convinced that the country really is more incurably racist and hateful than even we want to admit. The cancer has metastasized and is impossible to cut out, because it’s more than half the fucking country, or at least more than half the country that’s given enough freedom to ‘matter’. Everyone else is just a subject or an ‘invader’.

136
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:55:49am

re: #135 Citizen K

I just saw a trend line showing the U.S. population crossed from majority rural to majority urban in 2007, and it’s not going back. That means the old system of representation that favored land over population is going to be under increasing strain. Everyone who feels threatened by that trend, as well as immigration, is feeling besieged and lashing out.

137
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 6:57:12am
138
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 7:02:07am

re: #136 jaunte

The problem there is that the folks that feel threatened by that trend essentially have all the fucking power to ensure that trend does not and will not translate into an actual political power shift. And we’re seeing that in action now, and how fragile our system is where they can do this shit, out in the open, with consistent bad faith, and consistently get rewarded for it time and time and time a-fucking-gain.

139
mmmirele  May 27, 2018 • 7:09:28am

re: #90 JordanRules

He retweeted my reply!

I’m still thinking I’m picketing my congresscritter’s office on Tuesday afternoon after I get off work, since Andy Biggs has been a supporter of Trump and his policies.

140
Renaissance_Man  May 27, 2018 • 7:09:28am
141
Hecuba's daughter  May 27, 2018 • 7:10:02am

re: #48 William Lewis

Exactly - though the Prosperity Gospel lie is pure Calvinist in itself for in that fallacy those few who are elect (“saved”) will be shown by their god ordained prosperity. That it is utterly opposed to everything that the Rabbi from Nazareth taught is irrelevant to those who stand to gain secular power and secular wealth from it. I realize I will not be able to defeat this but I can fight it for whatever little that is worth.

During our weekly call with our brother, he once again demonstrated how mendacious and corrupt the Republican philosophy is. He thinks it’s fine that people are able to buy their way into this country — though our illiterate, uneducated grandparents would never have been admitted if those had been the rules at the beginning of the last century. My sister suggested then that we remove the welcoming inscription on the Statue of Liberty. It is toxic to our heritage to believe that those with great wealth are somehow more moral or meritorious or of more worth than those who are have lesser financial assets.

He also came up with an additional two reasons for Kim Jong-un not wanting to attend a summit: (1) Kim is afraid of flying and (2) is afraid of being overthrown in a military coup if he leaves the country. We had no way to respond to these assertions at the time of our conversation — but the first is false (though it was apparently true of his father) and the second is also refuted by trips he has taken elsewhere. I don’t know where my brother acquires these suppositions — perhaps through some right-wing equivalent of LGF.

142
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 7:28:16am

It’s quite possible the media is actually getting worse and more entrenched in extending every benefit of the doubt to Trump and the GOP because fuck it, why not, liberals hate us anyways so lets spite them all the fucking more!

There seems to be zero hope here at this point.

143
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 7:29:13am

re: #140 Renaissance_Man

I see no possible problems arising from this at all.

The folks who were savvy to the causes of the subprime mortgage meltdown of the last decade (and the S&L crash the decade before that) predicted the financiers would go down the same path, given enough time. Now that the last set of regulations have been annulled, we’ll be heading down the same road. If there’s another real estate/home building boom, hang on your hats (and wallets).

144
SteveMcGriftFlynnComey... ...corruptemoligate RN  May 27, 2018 • 7:30:00am

I’m watching a white respiratory therapist tell a black aide about her fear of police encounters. She’s completely oblivious to the way the side is looking at her.

145
wheat-dogg  May 27, 2018 • 7:32:48am

It’s time for my bedtime. Just two more early Monday mornings till September! My classes all end this week, and I give exams next Monday and Tuesday. w00t!

See you all on the flipside.

146
Unshaken Defiance  May 27, 2018 • 7:34:40am

re: #139 mmmirele

[Embedded content]

He retweeted my reply!

I’m still thinking I’m picketing my congresscritter’s office on Tuesday afternoon after I get off work, since Andy Biggs has been a supporter of Trump and his policies.

The place to picket is ICE facilities imo. Surround the place and turn our backs. Wear black for shame.

147
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 7:37:26am
148
Unshaken Defiance  May 27, 2018 • 7:38:09am

a4oTukVIpWIQVMYBp4Tc/gydpJa40RIUxbqv3r6PJOlKUCP3qfkF8iAEABwg9pslZuUPnyppsBWcX6/VlfebSy/CKRRv8V41zPURD59aZFsGwECxPZzThatk5Nk3hFgdhOpxmdBwj8svQe/HSFXtemcS8ex3f18l

149
A hollow voice says, Covfefe.  May 27, 2018 • 7:39:19am

re: #142 Citizen K

During the gilded age, income inequality was what it is today, the “haves” owned the media, and people had at least as much trouble staying afloat financially.

Nevertheless, we persisted. And, in the end, prevailed.

150
Shropshire Slasher  May 27, 2018 • 7:45:32am

re: #140 Renaissance_Man

Yeah, that man shouldn’t be allowed to dress himself.

151
The Vicious Babushka  May 27, 2018 • 7:47:11am

Another group of immigrant kids processed at an ICE facility:

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

152
Colère Tueur de Lapin  May 27, 2018 • 7:47:21am

re: #148 Unshaken Defiance

lpxmMhU0dVCGpDloLUfEIQnGJoe9dJTx/9FvoyBl8Z8=

153
Unshaken Defiance  May 27, 2018 • 7:51:08am

re: #152 Colère Tueur de Lapin

hyuxJTXGY+dlMekM3lz01XwWW6nSl3+JE5gFINu4voEfSc2ispa3W2B+im4Se1r+rNvH15/9zTWU5i7tRffhfDkyyxW9kxLA5uAiB1gZBZTncqZ2L1jH0m17WEiOGk4vM6T1aGLP2x8P/DoN0hErOLA6GnDhFTXw+FVGhC1rXii6MhTSu1SALBpv7LBe1vVzH5htlM9cqp5VACJIAsthqOv9ZtUdBFPZ9WMMZNH8ZbIqel+z7kx0cZXMgLjRwPpdzYACu4e0+wLdnDDiDG2GedJmiUa67kBzh60jE7h+HeiYJJiX+hjzb9YxHOhLYNAm5Fw9vPvNrf30RwTeUYwk6n6Pz5v+4drMULT1xi9y4QmX2sFKEw19PqgZSgXwBj/A5wN4M21Jd2X/fpjfyzRuFk7VvbuqTND3bfypNT6SKr+ZRs53xkEMpHrho4a1nOF6LOH7CEavx30=

154
The Vicious Babushka  May 27, 2018 • 7:52:44am

This is an actual picture of immigrant kids:

155
I cannot.  May 27, 2018 • 7:54:38am

re: #140 Renaissance_Man

We’ve seen this movie before.

Fuck.

156
Unshaken Defiance  May 27, 2018 • 7:55:18am

re: #154 The Vicious Babushka

This is an actual picture of immigrant kids:

[Embedded content]

We are witnessing the deliberate end of justice for children in custody.

157
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 7:56:46am

re: #146 Unshaken Defiance

The place to picket is ICE facilities imo. Surround the place and turn our backs. Wear black for shame.

In many cases we don’t know where they are and in other cases its logistically hard to get to them. Maximum impact needs visibility and inclusion and part of that is easy access for everyone, including the press, to get there.

In a lot of cases there have already been ongoing protests at Congressional home offices so many groups are already familiar with them. Here in Phoenix, we had been protesting outside McCain and Flake’s offices every Tuesday for months.

158
Unshaken Defiance  May 27, 2018 • 7:58:46am

Guys between the ICE baby bus and kids put behind chain links fence caged like a pit bull rescue show I’m out for a bit. We are coming to a place of where we will stop going to work, to play and instead fill the streets. Or become a dark place. Bring the light.

159
Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2018 • 8:02:37am

re: #156 Unshaken Defiance

re: #157 JordanRules

ICE needs to be abolished - liquidated as an agency.

Anyone currently working for ICE, in any capacity, from field agent to support staff, must not be allowed in any way, shape or form, to work for the agency that replaces it.

Laws must also be written that will prevent any future recurrences.

End of.

160
freetoken  May 27, 2018 • 8:11:07am

re: #159 Dr Lizardo

The old Border Patrol was always a bit of an outsider, in regards to law enforcement.

And our border has always been contentious. We’ve continually fought over it, killed over it.

161
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 8:13:41am

re: #159 Dr Lizardo

ICE needs to be abolished - liquidated as an agency.

Anyone currently working for ICE, in any capacity, from field agent to support staff, must not be allowed in any way, shape or form, to work for the agency that replaces it.

Laws must also be written that will prevent any future recurrences.

End of.

Indeed. Here’s a good thread on how it evolved and a reminder about how much bad stuff was brought forth under W-Cheney.

162
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 8:15:46am

re: #114 Backwoods_Sleuth

but OF COURSE!

[Embedded content]

A group of Republicans is called a Confederacy of Dunces.

163
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 8:22:41am

re: #162 Skip Intro

A group of Republicans is called a KKKonfederacy of Dunces.

FIFY.

164
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 8:26:00am

Good late morning!

Just finished watching the Monaco Grand Prix. Needed some auto racing to take away from the politics. It’s really getting tough to follow these days.

I did this Photoshop back sometime ago…when Trump first started attacking “Mexicans” back in 2015. It now is more to the point than it was then.

Trump Making America Great Again One Anchor Baby and Parent at a Time
165
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 8:26:48am

China Approves 5 New Trademarks For Ivanka Trump Business As President Forges ZTE Deal

Ivanka Trump’s business has won approval from the Chinese government for at least five new trademarks. The approval came just days before President Donald Trump announced he was working on a controversial deal to drop U.S. prohibitions against China cellphone manufacturer ZTE.

Another trademark was given trial approval. The trademarks grant Ivanka Trump operations exclusive rights to market a variety of products in China that could potentially amount to millions of dollars in profits. Ivanka Trump Marks LLC received approval last year for several other trademarks after she began working in the White House. Three of them were granted the same day she dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping at Mar-a-Lago.

huffingtonpost.com

166
The Vicious Babushka  May 27, 2018 • 8:30:18am

CORRECTION (but who will even notice it?)

167
Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2018 • 8:31:41am

re: #165 Skip Intro

And of course, it goes without saying that if, let’s say, Barack Obama had done this, the House Freedom Caucus and Limbaugh and Hannity would be shrieking for nothing less than summary execution.

168
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 8:33:34am

re: #167 Dr Lizardo

And of course, it goes without saying that if, let’s say, Barack Obama had done this, the House Freedom Caucus and Limbaugh and Hannity would be shrieking for nothing less than summary execution.

But the Jillshills and Berniebots allege that this is what Obama did.

169
plansbandc  May 27, 2018 • 8:36:38am

re: #59 JordanRules

LIES MAGGIE. LIES.

170
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 8:44:13am

Sorta difficult when a New York Times stenographer has a crush on Trump!

171
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 8:48:18am

re: #63 DodgerFan1988

Move along. There’s no hate crimes here, folks. Move along, move along.

[Embedded content]

A couple observations:

1) They’re all backwards. Only thing worse than a Nazi is a stupid Nazi.

2) According to Trump, “Political correctness is killing us”, so this is what you get in Trump’s America.

3) This weekend we’re supposed to be commemorating the sacrifice of Americans who gave their lives fighting against things like this. In the case of about 500,000 of them, LITERALLY against this.

4) I hate Illinois Nazis.

172
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 8:52:31am

re: #170 Joe Bacon 🌹

Sorta difficult when a New York Times stenographer has a crush on Trump!

[Embedded content]

No, I don’t think that’s it. I think she’s being pedantic about the word ‘lie’.

Key to understanding, not just of Haberman’s caginess around the word lie, but MUCH more importantly of Trump himself:

The reality is that what he does can be hard to label because, as anyone who has worked for him will tell you in candor, he often thinks whatever he says is what’s real.

173
I Would Prefer Not To  May 27, 2018 • 8:58:54am

So this.

A little over a year ago, I moved into this house in the Rockaways. Posted pics before, not really part of the the story.

Most of the guys are musicians. I am not. I always gave them a hard time because they just got up played without promoting themselves. (My background is in marketing/PR). They said why don’t you do it. A year latter and I’m managing on of the bands (Tall Juan) AND this is the crazy part, I will be MCing the show tonight. Life is strange.

Tonight at Trans Pecos in Queens. Details under the privacy thingy.

oX5YhxLMdFfb9GsOFEZ3xneFROGGpxC0DvAte3eqD8tD+5sMpt5oexB9mYnxdf51cCgRUiQAABJ8G1b5/scjGRBuZvaQjk7liHlie2voqmczALnG1J5yfDS7jZYXqTUwXK76/zA2/iQmKJ8LHfX9i1dwGEAtRciyG2V8HL7TyyzlWaCKoBo1dkKuY7XtuTSdMqpfwiUNd5qihZGySH2NB4hCiysCmytulbd8lS4F4FU/NtZeIOT9YzJH5nNm32547/E++rGPvx6A5DozRiMgzWo4MxXwuwkgoa9IaGia04fq8zf/7BYPzyQAa7OtBpLgzoqKcOfxW4WUG/JUxXVTTQ==

174
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 8:59:00am

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

That doesn’t excuse her from saying it’s a lie.

175
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 8:59:03am

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

We’ve been here before.

Contending that his statement that “there’s nothing going on between us” had been truthful because he had no ongoing relationship with Lewinsky at the time he was questioned, Clinton said, “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.

176
BigPapa  May 27, 2018 • 8:59:10am

re: #164 ObserverArt

stolen and posted on my FB

177
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:03:19am

re: #174 Joe Bacon 🌹

That doesn’t excuse her from saying it’s a lie.

Not to go all pedantic myself, but really, it’s a lie if he knows the truth and wants to convince us otherwise. If he doesn’t care whether it’s true or not, it’s bullshit.

But what is it if he thinks it’s true BECAUSE he said it?

178
allegro  May 27, 2018 • 9:06:54am

re: #177 Blind Frog Belly White

Not to go all pedantic myself, but really, it’s a lie if he knows the truth and wants to convince us otherwise. If he doesn’t care whether it’s true or not, it’s bullshit.

But what is it if he thinks it’s true BECAUSE he said it?

Because it is so much more comforting knowing our dear leader is delusional.

179
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:08:42am

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

No, I don’t think that’s it. I think she’s being pedantic about the word ‘lie’.

[Embedded content]

Key to understanding, not just of Haberman’s caginess around the word lie, but MUCH more importantly of Trump himself:

The reality is that what he does can be hard to label because, as anyone who has worked for him will tell you in candor, he often thinks whatever he says is what’s real.

So, he believes his own lies. That doesn’t change the fact they are still lies.

The fact is he believes them and his staff dances around them; then his supporters eat them up as the truth. That makes the lying more dangerous. But lies are lies.

And I’d be lying if I said Maggie Haberman was helping this country one bit with her fuzzy stance.

180
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:09:14am

Bill Clinton knew what the truth was, and tried to convince us otherwise. He tried to avoid telling a lie by threading a needle, and messed up doing that. So, he lied.

Trump? If you are thinking of him in conventional terms of a politician who knows what the facts are, and is trying to convince you otherwise, you’re missing the point. He doesn’t know what the truth is and doesn’t care. Per Haberman, he appears to believe the truth is what he says it is. This is WAY more dangerous than simple lying, and it’s one of the struggles in covering him.

181
Teukka  May 27, 2018 • 9:09:32am

Swedish lizardim reporting in on local events. Suspicious object found in central Stockholm:

182
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:10:10am

re: #176 BigPapa

stolen and posted on my FB

Never stolen…I do ‘em for everyone to use.

183
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:11:07am

re: #178 allegro

Because it is so much more comforting knowing our dear leader is delusional.

184
Dr Lizardo  May 27, 2018 • 9:12:08am

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

That’s how Trump lies so effortlessly. He believes a lot of this BS, even though it’s obvious BS and easily proven to be BS.

That’s what Kellyanne Conway meant by “alternative facts”. If someone believes in something strongly enough, it becomes a reality to that person.

The human mind is infinitely malleable, as George Orwell once famous observed.

185
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:15:40am

re: #179 ObserverArt

So, he believes his own lies. That doesn’t change the fact they are still lies.

The fact is he believes them and his staff dances around them; then his supporters eat them up as the truth. That makes the lying more dangerous. But lies are lies.

And I’d be lying if I said Maggie Haberman was helping this country one bit with her fuzzy stance.

I disagree, because I think she’s telling us something way, way deeper and more dangerous than “Trump lies”. She’s telling us he doesn’t really give a shit what the truth is. At all. He says what he wants us to believe, completely untied to what reality is, and that’s way worse than knowing the truth and saying the opposite.

I mean, are you not seeing her Tweets on this? Do you think she’s covering for him? because I’m seeing something very different. To say “he’s lying” would convey a false impression of how Trump deals with reality.

186
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:20:35am

I guess the definition from Merriam Webster doesn’t mean what it means.

Definition of lie
lied; lying play \ˈlī-iŋ\

intransitive verb
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive - She was lying when she said she didn’t break the vase. - He lied about his past experience.White

2 : to create a false or misleading impression - Statistics sometimes lie. - The mirror never lies.

transitive verb
: to bring about by telling lies - He lied his way out of trouble.

187
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:21:46am

Franklin Graham’s poisonous message of hate and resentment really works best on the ignorant. i.e. those who don’t actually know any immigrants, or LGBT folks, or blacks. For those who do, the rantings about them being evil make no sense. So I don’t worry that California will turn Red. You can’t put that genie back in the bottle.

188
The Vicious Babushka  May 27, 2018 • 9:22:24am
189
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 9:22:40am

I’m not sure what Maggie is trying to say. He does lie. He does deceive.

190
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 9:23:45am

re: #188 The Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

God so much pathetic and whining. He really thinks he’s only being investigated because he won.

191
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:23:56am

re: #186 ObserverArt

I guess the definition from Merriam Webster doesn’t mean what it means.

Definition of lie
lied; lying play \ˈlī-iŋ\

intransitive verb
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive - She was lying when she said she didn’t break the vase. - He lied about his past experience.White

2 : to create a false or misleading impression - Statistics sometimes lie. - The mirror never lies.

transitive verb
: to bring about by telling lies - He lied his way out of trouble.

Honest question - why are people so stuck on the word ‘lie’? This is starting to feel like “Obama never used the word ‘Terrorism’!”

192
PhillyPretzel  May 27, 2018 • 9:25:04am

re: #188 The Vicious Babushka

Shall we revive the sixties expression of “Male Chauvinistic Pig?”

193
Patricia Kayden  May 27, 2018 • 9:25:35am

re: #189 HappyWarrior

I’m not sure what Maggie is trying to say. He does lie. He does deceive.

Didn’t he just insult her by claiming not to know her? And yet, here she is defending him against folks pointing out that he’s a liar. Arghhhhh!!!

P.S. There’s a photo of them together in the White House which counters his claim that they’ve never met, for goodness sakes.

194
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:26:37am

re: #185 Blind Frog Belly White

I disagree, because I think she’s telling us something way, way deeper and more dangerous than “Trump lies”. She’s telling us he doesn’t really give a shit what the truth is. At all. He says what he wants us to believe, completely untied to what reality is, and that’s way worse than knowing the truth and saying the opposite.

I mean, are you not seeing her Tweets on this? Do you think she’s covering for him? because I’m seeing something very different. To say “he’s lying” would convey a false impression of how Trump deals with reality.

I can read, yes. It doesn’t change the fact they are still lies. Lies to deceive, lies to gain and advantage. Still fucking lying.

If you are saying something that is not true…what else is it? You seem to have a problem with my interpretation of words. Take it up with Merrian Webster.

Here is another definition from Merriam Webster. Pay close attention to the bold part.

Definition of lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive - He told a lie to avoid punishment.
b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer - the lies we tell ourselves to feel better - historical records containing numerous lies
2 : something that misleads or deceives - His show of remorse was a lie.
3 : a charge of lying (see 3lie)

195
BeachDem  May 27, 2018 • 9:26:49am
196
mmmirele  May 27, 2018 • 9:28:01am

I went out to the Sovereign Grace church in Gilbert, AZ this morning. I’ll be going back in a few minutes. (I live really close so I can do this.)

Also, a tropical bird of paradise plant:

197
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:28:10am

re: #189 HappyWarrior

I’m not sure what Maggie is trying to say. He does lie. He does deceive.

From philosopher Harry Frankfurt, who wrote the treatise “On Bullshit”:

It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.

This is an important distinction. Trump is less a liar than the consummate bullshit artist. He doesn’t care what the truth is.

198
Patricia Kayden  May 27, 2018 • 9:28:27am

re: #183 Blind Frog Belly White

Maggie is a real tool. Why does she think that Cusack cares about her opinion in regards to one of his movies at such a crucial time in our politics? She’s pathetic.

199
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:29:54am

re: #193 Patricia Kayden

Didn’t he just insult her by claiming not to know her? And yet, here she is defending him against folks pointing out that he’s a liar. Arghhhhh!!!

P.S. There’s a photo of them together in the White House which counters his claim that they’ve never met, for goodness sakes.

If you think she’s defending him, I think you’re missing the point.

200
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:31:09am

re: #183 Blind Frog Belly White

In which she defends not calling Trump’s lies “lies” because of some “master plan” strawman.

201
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 9:31:16am

re: #197 Blind Frog Belly White

From philosopher Harry Frankfurt, who wrote the treatise “On Bullshit”:

It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.

This is an important distinction. Trump is less a liar than the consummate bullshit artist. He doesn’t care what the truth is.

True enough.

202
Renaissance_Man  May 27, 2018 • 9:31:29am

re: #197 Blind Frog Belly White

From philosopher Harry Frankfurt, who wrote the treatise “On Bullshit”:

This is an important distinction. Trump is less a liar than the consummate bullshit artist. He doesn’t care what the truth is.

Is this not a distinction without a difference?

203
BigPapa  May 27, 2018 • 9:32:36am
204
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:32:38am

Contra Frankfurt, Trump knows the truth about how Russia helped his campaign.

205
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:33:54am

He may have a loose understanding of the details, but he knows.

206
electrotek  May 27, 2018 • 9:36:27am
207
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:37:35am

re: #202 Renaissance_Man

Is this not a distinction without a difference?

No. It’s an important difference and why Trump is so different from all the other lying politicians. Lying politicians are generally careful about it. They shade the truth, or use turns of phrase to convey the wrong impression, and if found out they hide behind those. They are limited by their fear of exposure.

Trump is not limited by any fear of being found out. He doesn’t care if what he says is true or not. He’s not tethered to reality as liars are. This is a big difference.

208
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:39:53am

Fun with words for those that seem to have problems with them. A bullshitter is just a vulgar way to call someone a liar. Both lie and bullshitter carry the same words like deception.

From The Free Dictionary

bull*shit (bo͝ol′shĭt′) Vulgar Slang
n.
1. Foolish, deceitful, or boastful language.
2. Something worthless, deceptive, or insincere.
3. Insolent talk or behavior.
v. bull*shit also bull*shat (-shăt) or bull*shit*ted (-shĭt′ĭd), bull*shit*ting, bull*shits
v.intr.
1. To speak foolishly or insolently.
2. To engage in idle conversation.
v.tr.
To attempt to mislead or deceive by talking nonsense.
adj.
Very angry; incensed.
interj.
Used to express extreme displeasure or exasperation.

How about we go with the English Oxford Dictionary…they seem to know the language. They keep it simple…The British Way.

bullshitter
NOUN
vulgar slang
A person who exaggerates or lies.

209
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:41:10am

re: #191 Blind Frog Belly White

Honest question - why are people so stuck on the word ‘lie’? This is starting to feel like “Obama never used the word ‘Terrorism’!”

Don’t hurt yourself stretching that far.

How about we ask why you are having such a problem with a word that seemingly 90% of people want to see used?

210
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:41:50am

re: #200 jaunte

In which she defends not calling Trump’s lies “lies” because of some “master plan” strawman.

I hardly think calling them “demonstrable falsehoods”, and talking about “how Trump’s ignorance and mendacity interact” counts as ‘defending’.

211
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:43:18am

I’d say Trump is on the bully end of the self-aware liar spectrum. He’ll bullshit about things he knows nothing about and rely on the moment passing; when he’s fully aware that he’s lying, he’s also daring you to do anything about it as a way of proving his dominance.

212
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:44:05am

re: #209 ObserverArt

Don’t hurt yourself stretching that far.

How about we ask why you are having such a problem with a word that seemingly 90% of people want to see used?

Dude, if you don’t think there’s a difference between lying and bullshitting, I can’t help you. There’s a difference. It’s not subtle. And there’s not a prize for using the word ‘lie’ any more than there is ‘terrorism’.

213
sagehen  May 27, 2018 • 9:45:13am

re: #196 mmmirele

I went out to the Sovereign Grace church in Gilbert, AZ this morning. I’ll be going back in a few minutes. (I live really close so I can do this.)

[Embedded content]

um… that’s not a bird of paradise, it’s a hibiscus. This is bird of paradise:

214
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:46:19am

re: #207 Blind Frog Belly White

No. It’s an important difference and why Trump is so different from all the other lying politicians. Lying politicians are generally careful about it. They shade the truth, or use turns of phrase to convey the wrong impression, and if found out they hide behind those. They are limited by their fear of exposure.

Trump is not limited by any fear of being found out. He doesn’t care if what he says is true or not. He’s not tethered to reality as liars are. This is a big difference.

Now you are playing with degrees. You haven’t changed the word.

Lies are still lies. Trump just lies all the time. That is the only difference. It doesn’t change the words or language.

Are you just being a contrarian?

215
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:46:45am

From the guy who’s made it his mission to catalog Trumpian lies and bullshit. Read the thread.

216
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:47:06am
217
BeachDem  May 27, 2018 • 9:47:38am

re: #211 jaunte

I’d say Trump is on the bully end of the self-aware liar spectrum. He’ll bullshit about things he knows nothing about and rely on the moment passing; when he’s fully aware that he’s lying, he’s also daring you to do anything about it as a way of proving his dominance.

Or…

218
Ace-o-aces  May 27, 2018 • 9:47:39am
219
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 9:50:26am

re: #212 Blind Frog Belly White

Dude, if you don’t think there’s a difference between lying and bullshitting, I can’t help you. There’s a difference. It’s not subtle. And there’s not a prize for using the word ‘lie’ any more than there is ‘terrorism’.

You have issues with dictionaries. Why do we even have them anymore?

Fuck it. This is just insane hair splitting BULLSHIT.

220
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:51:42am

re: #214 ObserverArt

Now you are playing with degrees. You haven’t changed the word.

Lies are still lies. Trump just lies all the time. That is the only difference. It doesn’t change the words or language.

Are you just being a contrarian?

No, YOU are!
///

No, I’m not. I’m talking about an important difference in dealing with reality. Peer Frankfurt, both the liar and the honest man are tethered to reality. The bullshitter isn’t. That, it seems to me, is a CRUCIAL distinction necessary to understanding Trump. He’s not tethered to reality at all. A liar would worry about being found out because then his next lie would be harder to sell. Trump doesn’t care.

Remember the Karl Rove quote about ‘creating new realities’? That’s really how Trump works. A liar has to defend or explain his lie. Trump just keeps spewing, moves on to the next topic and says whatever he wants you to believe there, too.

221
Ace-o-aces  May 27, 2018 • 9:52:00am
222
Hecuba's daughter  May 27, 2018 • 9:53:03am

Trump KNOWS HE IS LYING and he does it anyway. This is 1984 writ large. We should all use LIE every time he speaks. A person can mistakenly repeat something that turns out to be untrue, but if the speaker doesn’t care whether it is true then it has to be called a LIE.

In most cases, Trump really knows the truth but he is trying to pervert his listener’s perception; in the other cases, he DOESN’T CARE. My brother still believes Trump was not mocking the disabled reporter. So Trump’s lies work. Maggie is such a hack.

223
Belafon  May 27, 2018 • 9:53:49am

In my best operatic voice: HOLY, SHITBALLS!

This has nothing to do with current events. You will know.

224
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:53:51am

re: #211 jaunte

I’d say Trump is on the bully end of the self-aware liar spectrum. He’ll bullshit about things he knows nothing about and rely on the moment passing; when he’s fully aware that he’s lying, he’s also daring you to do anything about it as a way of proving his dominance.

Bingo!

225
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 9:54:04am

re: #221 Ace-o-aces

[Embedded content]

He’s complaining that their political views are why. Uh, FNC stopped covering the shooting pretty much immediately but go ahead act like the students that survived Santa Fe were only conservatives.

226
Ace-o-aces  May 27, 2018 • 9:55:27am
227
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 9:55:42am

re: #215 Blind Frog Belly White

Oh, crap. Just go down to the bottom of that string of tweets and click on Daniel Dale’s Tweet.

228
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:56:35am

re: #221 Ace-o-aces

Santa Fe High School Shooting Survivor Has a Message for Politicians About Gun Reform
“My thought is that if you do not do something, you do not have a prayer of being elected.”
teenvogue.com

229
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 9:58:21am

re: #222 Hecuba’s daughter

Trump KNOWS HE IS LYING and he does it anyway. This is 1984 writ large. We should all use LIE every time he speaks. A person can mistakenly repeat something that turns out to be untrue, but if the speaker doesn’t care whether it is true then it has to be called a LIE.

In most cases, Trump really knows the truth but he is trying to pervert his listener’s perception; in the other cases, he DOESN’T CARE. My brother still believes Trump was not mocking the disabled reporter. So Trump’s lies work. Maggie is such a hack.

This. We’ve already had people say, on the record, how Trump gives the game away in private, that he says that he lies and calls shit fake news precisely to try and delegitimize the media. Trying to get him off the hook because of some belief that ‘he somehow believes it’ is bullshit.

And yes, ‘demonstrable falsehoods’, ‘stretching the truth’, ‘unconfirmed claims’ are definitely less powerful than saying ‘lie’. What have Dems been told consistently about having to use direct, honest language and how part of our problem is being ‘too clever by half’ and ‘too wonky’? THIS is part of that: the word ‘lie’ is powerful because it’s short, direct, and to the point. ‘Demonstrable falsehoods’ and the like get people to tune out and give way too much wiggle room as euphemisms and other kinds of floral language do.

230
Ace-o-aces  May 27, 2018 • 9:58:23am

re: #225 HappyWarrior

He’s complaining that their political views are why. Uh, FNC stopped covering the shooting pretty much immediately but go ahead act like the students that survived Santa Fe were only conservatives.

His logic seems to be, “Santa Fe is in Texas, Texas government is pro-gun, thus kids must be pro-gun.” This ignores the fact that the anti-NRA teens from Parkland hail from Florida, not exactly known as a bastion of control.

231
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 9:58:56am

Student Survivors Describe the Santa Fe High School Shooting

“…Santa Fe High School students are now grappling with the expectation that they will return to school, with the tragedy fresh not just in their memories but in the hallways they now have to learn to walk again. One student, Gracie, described dealing with symptoms of what sounds like post-traumatic stress syndrome, “Now anytime i hear sirens my heart stops for a second as I scan the area around me as fast as I can.” Another student simply tweeted, “I don’t know how they expect us to go back on Wednesday.”
teenvogue.com

232
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:00:01am

re: #230 Ace-o-aces

His logic seems to be, “Santa Fe is in Texas, Texas government is pro-gun, thus kids must be pro-gun.” This ignores the fact that the anti-NRA teens from Parkland hail from Florida, not exactly known as a bastion of control.

Parkland is in a more liberal area but correct. Info the Congressional candidate I’m working for, her cousins attend Santa Fe.

233
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:00:25am

re: #231 jaunte

Student Survivors Describe the Santa Fe High School Shooting

I feel so awful for them.

234
Ace-o-aces  May 27, 2018 • 10:01:31am

USSR had “even a stopped clock” moments it seems.

235
Belafon  May 27, 2018 • 10:01:36am

re: #228 jaunte

Santa Fe High School Shooting Survivor Has a Message for Politicians About Gun Reform
“My thought is that if you do not do something, you do not have a prayer of being elected.”
teenvogue.com

The only group that has truly responded to the Santa Fe kids are the Parkland kids.

236
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 10:03:10am
237
electrotek  May 27, 2018 • 10:09:42am

A broken clock gets it right

238
BeachDem  May 27, 2018 • 10:10:11am

And Daniel Dale, as always, points out the big problem:

It’s the stenography aspect of reporting (even more so on Twitter) where they just repeat his bullshit with no insight—Daniel is really good about how when he quotes the yam in a tweet, he almost always fact-checks it in realtime.

239
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:10:28am

re: #235 Belafon

The only group that has truly responded to the Santa Fe kids are the Parkland kids.

They share something that common experience unfortunately. They’re good kids.

240
CleverToad  May 27, 2018 • 10:11:12am

Will probably regret sticking an oar in, but here is my humble opinion on the lies/bullshit/shades of truthiness thingy:

I want to see the word ‘lie’ used loudly and often.
Not because it describes how Trump sees/understands the truth or otherwise of what he’s saying — that will still be getting argued in the history books. But because words matter in how people see him NOW.

I just want consistent, persistent messaging to be engrained in the public consciousness by repetition. Trump = lie. Trump = liar. Trump = false. Trump = take with a bucket of salt. ‘THIS’ is a fact but Trump says ‘that’ — preferably in that order, so that the true statement comes first. If Trump says it, don’t believe it.
Like dripping water, carving out a defined channel in the listener’s mind — the words Trump/lie immediately linked.
And if we can expand that to the GOP in general, all the better. GOP = Trump = lie.

241
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:13:34am

re: #191 Blind Frog Belly White

Honest question - why are people so stuck on the word ‘lie’? This is starting to feel like “Obama never used the word ‘Terrorism’!”

Which was a lie by conservatives then as well. Obama did use the word, and more than once. Calling a lie something else is straight out of the propaganda playbook.

re: #207 Blind Frog Belly White

No. It’s an important difference and why Trump is so different from all the other lying politicians. Lying politicians are generally careful about it. They shade the truth, or use turns of phrase to convey the wrong impression, and if found out they hide behind those. They are limited by their fear of exposure.

Trump is not limited by any fear of being found out. He doesn’t care if what he says is true or not. He’s not tethered to reality as liars are. This is a big difference.

We have terms for that. You even called it: Lying politicians. Shading the truth, using terms of phrase to convey the wrong impression, &c are also weaker terms than the one which actually describes that behaviour: “Lying by omission.”

Trump not limited by any fear of being found out or not caring what is true or not is called “Lying by commission.”

You know what I will do in my tiny little insignificant political office when someone asks me what Trump might have said or done today? “He said X and it’s true, or he said Y and he lied.” I’m not afraid of losing my position, Maggie Haberman is.

A person who’s pay is dependent on ignoring what’s right in front of her. What do you call a person who covers for a liar?

“A liar.”

242
Big Beautiful Door  May 27, 2018 • 10:13:36am

re: #148 Unshaken Defiance

[Embedded content]

The problem is, if you resist, there is a good chance they’ll kill you.

243
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:17:34am

re: #242 Big Beautiful Door

The problem is, if you resist, there is a good chance they’ll kill you.

Hobson’s choice? Let ICE take your children and do nothing, or resist and be killed?

We fought a war against fascism, in which millions were killed. The whole world was involved.

244
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:21:34am

Rick Santorum on Dana Bash’s show regarding the loss of 1,500 or so children:

“They’re not lost, we just don’t know where they are.”

That is the definition of “lost.” And the panel accepts this as normal and didn’t start throwing things at him.

245
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:22:09am

re: #241 Anymouse 🌹

Which was a lie by conservatives then as well. Obama did use the word, and more than once. Calling a lie something else is straight out of the propaganda playbook.

We have terms for that. You even called it: Lying politicians. Shading the truth, using terms of phrase to convey the wrong impression, &c are also weaker terms than the one which actually describes that behaviour: “Lying by omission.”

Trump not limited by any fear of being found out or not caring what is true or not is called “Lying by commission.”

You know what I will do in my tiny little insignificant political office when someone asks me what Trump might have said or done today? “He said X and it’s true, or he said Y and he lied.” I’m not afraid of losing my position, Maggie Haberman is.

A person who’s pay is dependent on ignoring what’s right in front of her. What do you call a person who covers for a liar?

“A liar.”

This all started because of a Tweet from Haberman in which she called out ‘two demonstrable falsehoods’. And then everyone went to town on her for not saying ‘lies’. That’s really all this is about. Nobody’s accusing her of reporting the demonstrable falsehoods as truth. Just not using a particular word for them.

Please, explain to me how calling demonstrable falsehoods “demonstrable falsehoods” is “ignoring what’s right in front of her”.

246
freetoken  May 27, 2018 • 10:23:05am

re: #240 CleverToad

But because words matter in how people see him NOW.

Yes, they do.

But will the Trumpers listen to those who call Trump a liar?

247
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 10:25:20am

re: #227 Blind Frog Belly White

Oh, crap. Just go down to the bottom of that string of tweets and click on Daniel Dale’s Tweet.

What? You even use the word lies in your comment #215. Along with bullshit.

I bet you if you went up to a real Trumper in their natural habitat red state and said “Trump is a bullshitter” they might just agree. That may be one of the reasons they like him, we’ve all heard “he is just like me.”

But if you said “Trump is a liar” you may just get into a fight. Them’s fightin’ words.

And that is why calling Trump a liar is important. It stings. It is a basic word that is clear and clean. Everyone knows what it means. Even kids know the word.

Bullshitter can be casual and can even be taken as being a bit humorous. “Aww, he’s just bullshitting us”

A lot different than “He’s a liar.”

And time to do something with the day. I still vote with the 90% of American that wants to call a spade a spade. Red state people like that and they understand it.

248
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:26:36am

re: #246 freetoken

Yes, they do.

But will the Trumpers listen to those who call Trump a liar?

No. Like “Radical Islamic Terrorism”, saying the words won’t magically make it go away.

249
freetoken  May 27, 2018 • 10:27:17am

A couple of years ago the cognoscenti among high-brow discussions pushed around the idea of “epistemic bubbles”.

Well, yes, such things do exist, and Trumpers are just another example.

Example are easy to find - your Facebook friends who unfriend you when you point out the problems with Trump and the entire hate-right.

250
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:28:09am

re: #245 Blind Frog Belly White

This all started because of a Tweet from Haberman in which she called out ‘two demonstrable falsehoods’. And then everyone went to town on her for not saying ‘lies’. That’s really all this is about. Nobody’s accusing her of reporting the demonstrable falsehoods as truth. Just not using a particular word for them.

Please, explain to me how calling demonstrable falsehoods “demonstrable falsehoods” is “ignoring what’s right in front of her”.

Christine Teegan already addressed that.

“He told two demonstrable falsehoods” is a term to obfuscate (lie about) what Trump really did: “He told two lies.”

Haberman has no trouble using the term “lie” when she is talking about a Democrat saying something untrue (lying).

At least she didn’t use the term she used last year: “This is one of the rare times Trump has tweeked his own language to asterisk his own hyperbole about what he does.”

Language matters.

251
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:28:36am

re: #244 Anymouse 🌹

Rick Santorum on Dana Bash’s show regarding the loss of 1,500 or so children:

“They’re not lost, we just don’t know where they are.”

That is the definition of “lost.” And the panel accepts this as normal and didn’t start throwing things at him.

WTF is wrong with him.

252
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:28:46am

re: #247 ObserverArt

What? You even use the word lies in your comment #215. Along with bullshit.

I bet you if you went up to a real Trumper in their natural habitat red state and said “Trump is a bullshitter” they might just agree. That may be one of the reasons they like him, we’ve all heard “he is just like me.”

But if you said “Trump is a liar” you may just get into a fight. Them’s fightin’ words.

And that is why calling Trump a liar is important. It stings. It is a basic word that is clear and clean. Everyone knows what it means. Even kids know the word.

Bullshitter can be casual and can even be taken as being a bit humorous. “Aww, he’s just bullshitting us”

A lot different than “He’s a liar.”

And time to do something with the day. I still vote with the 90% of American that wants to call a spade a spade. Red state people like that and they understand it.

Sure, fine, whatever.

Say it three times and see if it makes him disappear.

253
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 10:29:06am

re: #244 Anymouse 🌹

Rick Santorum on Dana Bash’s show regarding the loss of 1,500 or so children:

“They’re not lost, we just don’t know where they are.”

That is the definition of “lost.” And the panel accepts this as normal and didn’t start throwing things at him.

Why does this asshole keep getting invited? What value does he add?

254
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:29:35am

re: #253 Skip Intro

Why does this asshole keep getting invited? What value does he add?

Damn good question.

255
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:31:47am

re: #252 Blind Frog Belly White

Sure, fine, whatever.

Say it three times and see if it makes him disappear.

Calling Nixon a crook made him disappear.

If you don’t want to call a lie “a lie” well that’s up to you I suppose.

256
Dave In Austin  May 27, 2018 • 10:31:58am

I’m getting a sense that there are a bunch of cult45ers out there who are on the cusp of violence towards Democrats. Is it just me or does anyone else sense that.

257
Teukka  May 27, 2018 • 10:32:03am

re: #181 Teukka

Swedish lizardim reporting in on local events. Suspicious object found in central Stockholm:

[Embedded content]

UPDATE: Suspicious object determined to be a coconut and a used bag of chips. As you were.

258
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 10:32:23am

re: #244 Anymouse 🌹

Rick Santorum on Dana Bash’s show regarding the loss of 1,500 or so children:

“They’re not lost, we just don’t know where they are.”

That is the definition of “lost.” And the panel accepts this as normal and didn’t start throwing things at him.

Of course Ghouliani is on her show too. Can’t go an hour without hearing what he has to say.

259
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 10:33:19am

re: #36 austin_blue

I’m pretty amazed that he has been able to keep the con going lo, these many years.

A useful reminder that the average IQ is 100, and half of the US population is below that.

A large minority of the population is squarely in the Idiocracy polity. And embraces it.

Danger sez: Way more than half the US population is below average. And yes I know how statistics work ;-)

260
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:34:08am

re: #253 Skip Intro

Why does this asshole keep getting invited? What value does he add?

Santorum’s redefinition of “lost” is just like Haberman’s redefinition of “lie.”

The point is to obfuscate (lie by omission).

I suppose the value Santorum adds is the same reason people go to towns to see tornado damage.

261
Skip Intro  May 27, 2018 • 10:34:40am

re: #258 Skip Intro

Oh, not her show, another CNN show. WTF CNN? How low can you sink?

262
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:36:23am

re: #255 Anymouse 🌹

Calling Nixon a crook made him disappear.

If you don’t want to call a lie “a lie” well that’s up to you I suppose.

No, proving that Nixon was a crook made him disappear. We called him a crook for a long, long time, and absent his taping himself in the Oval Office, he’d have served out his term.

So, what you said wasn’t accurate, but I wouldn’t call it a lie. Should I?

263
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 10:36:57am

re: #252 Blind Frog Belly White

Sure, fine, whatever.

Say it three times and see if it makes him disappear.

Demonstrable falsehood…demonstrable falsehood…demonstrable falsehood!

Still there!

264
freetoken  May 27, 2018 • 10:37:19am

Being part of the hate-right in this country isn’t about intelligence, it’s about morality.

I for one, being a bit old-fashioned, do not believe all reference frames of mores are equivalent.

Many thousands of years of civilization, and many tens of thousands of years of tribal life for Homo sapiens, has led us to work out the basic of how to live together.

And one of those basics is the need to be honest in important things.

265
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:38:00am

re: #256 Dave In Austin

I’m getting a sense that there are a bunch of cult45ers out there who are on the cusp of violence towards Democrats. Is it just me or does anyone else sense that.

The 101st Chairborne Division. A whole lot of bots. People, not so much.

266
Charles Johnson  May 27, 2018 • 10:38:48am
267
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  May 27, 2018 • 10:38:50am

re: #256 Dave In Austin

I’m getting a sense that there are a bunch of cult45ers out there who are on the cusp of violence towards Democrats. Is it just me or does anyone else sense that.

there is a rabid group of 3%-ers just waiting for a chance to get out their tactical gear and go play wolverines

268
Big Beautiful Door  May 27, 2018 • 10:40:30am

re: #243 Anymouse 🌹

Hobson’s choice? Let ICE take your children and do nothing, or resist and be killed?

We fought a war against fascism, in which millions were killed. The whole world was involved.

It is horrible that we have gleeful fascists setting policy, tearing families apart, and killing unarmed women.

269
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 10:40:56am

But to speak of the double standard is, as always, a taboo, and just shows how much Dems hate God and America and deserve to be treated even moreso as illegitimate and evil.

270
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:42:48am

re: #262 Blind Frog Belly White

No, proving that Nixon was a crook made him disappear. We called him a crook for a long, long time, and absent his taping himself in the Oval Office, he’d have served out his term.

So, what you said wasn’t accurate, but I wouldn’t call it a lie. Should I?

Call it an asterisk on my hyperbole. /s

Calling him a liar (amongst other things) kept spurring the investigation (and the press) to continue looking into his behaviour.

“Not accurate” isn’t “lie.” Example: For quite some time I’ve noted the population of my town is 128. The actual population (per a recent survey by the public library) is 132. I did not lie (the last census had our population at 128), I did not have up-to-date information.

What Trump does is lie. He lies about his golf scores. He lies about his inauguration size. He lied about the Central Park Five in an advert he paid for.

271
freetoken  May 27, 2018 • 10:44:52am

re: #270 Anymouse 🌹

What Trump does is lie. He lies about his golf scores. He lies about his inauguration size. He lied about the Central Park Five in an advert he paid for.

Because he’s a sociopath. That’s an easy word to throw around, but given Trump’s intentionally destruction of society’s institutions it is accurate.

272
Big Beautiful Door  May 27, 2018 • 10:46:21am

re: #254 HappyWarrior

Damn good question.

“Balance.”

273
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:46:25am

re: #251 HappyWarrior

WTF is wrong with him.

Prick has always been an asshole.

274
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  May 27, 2018 • 10:47:16am

re: #262 Blind Frog Belly White

No, proving that Nixon was a crook detriment to the interests of his own party made him disappear. We called him a crook for a long, long time, and absent his taping himself in the Oval Office, he’d have served out his term.

275
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:47:33am

re: #266 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Funny how “Hillary” there sounds like Trump.

276
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:48:11am

re: #273 Joe Bacon 🌹

Prick has always been an asshole.

I still love your andectote about him back in the day.

277
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 10:48:29am

re: #256 Dave In Austin

I’m getting a sense that there are a bunch of cult45ers out there who are on the cusp of violence towards Democrats. Is it just me or does anyone else sense that.

I sense that and hope to hell I’m wrong.

278
Joe Bacon 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:49:36am

re: #276 HappyWarrior

I still love your andectote about him back in the day.

Back then, ol’ Prick was working as an intern in John Heinz’s office. Oh and his future wife was living in sin with an OBGYN who performed abortions at Magee Women’s Hospital.

279
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 10:51:04am
280
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:51:59am

re: #278 Joe Bacon 🌹

Back then, ol’ Prick was working as an intern in John Heinz’s office. Oh and his future wife was living in sin with an OBGYN who performed abortions at Magee Women’s Hospital.

He’s one of the worst Republicans. I’ll never respect him at all after likening homosexuals to beastists. Sick bastard.

281
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 10:54:12am

re: #279 JordanRules

[Embedded content]

Then why are you running? I have to say. I never thought she was a hero. Must be nice to get clemency and then run for that same President’s party arguing that the Dems are just as bad. Chelsea is privilege defined.

282
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:55:49am

Of all businesses, only the press has a constitutional protection and right to exist.

That protection is there because an uniformed public cannot participate meaningfully in a democratic republic.

The press is not there to praise politicians. They are there to hold them to account, and that includes saying when they lied.

Calling lies “demonstrable falsehoods” removes the agency from the person propagating that falsehood.

I can say something which is false. That makes that something a “falsehood.”

I can deliberately propagate a falsehood, knowing or not caring if that statement is true or not. That is a “lie.”

The comparison of “Ms. Haberman calling a lie ‘a lie’ just like the claim ‘Why didn’t Obama use the word terrorist’” is a faulty analogy.

Conservatives lied about Obama. He did use that term.

Ms. Haberman is doing what she can to maintain her access journalism. Her paycheck depends on what she writes.

283
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:56:18am

re: #270 Anymouse 🌹

Call it an asterisk on my hyperbole. /s

Calling him a liar (amongst other things) kept spurring the investigation (and the press) to continue looking into his behaviour.

“Not accurate” isn’t “lie.” Example: For quite some time I’ve noted the population of my town is 128. The actual population (per a recent survey by the public library) is 132. I did not lie (the last census had our population at 128), I did not have up-to-date information.

What Trump does is lie. He lies about his golf scores. He lies about his inauguration size. He lied about the Central Park Five in an advert he paid for.

There are people out there who, either for pay or for free, take pictures from the internet that they know are not related to a particular event about which they wish to propagandize. They use them to create memes to push their particular ideology.

These people are liars. They are spreading falsehoods knowingly.

Other people see these memes, and because they share that ideology and believe the pictures are truth, they share them with all their friends.

They spread falsehoods unknowingly. Are these people liars?

Similarly, there are people out there who make up fake statistics to push their ideology.
For instance, there’s a false statistic out there, that 81% of white murder victims were killed by a black murderer.

That’s a lie, and the person who created that “statistic” told a lie.

Trump retweeted an image containing that false statistic back in November of 2015.

It’s a lie, and Trump’s a liar as well as a bullshitter. But in retweeting that lie, did Trump himself lie? He probably believes it.

284
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 10:58:23am

re: #282 Anymouse 🌹

Of all businesses, only the press has a constitutional protection and right to exist.

That protection is there because an uniformed public cannot participate meaningfully in a democratic republic.

The press is not there to praise politicians. They are there to hold them to account, and that includes saying when they lied.

Calling lies “demonstrable falsehoods” removes the agency from the person propagating that falsehood.

I can say something which is false. That makes that something a “falsehood.”

I can deliberately propagate a falsehood, knowing or not caring if that statement is true or not. That is a “lie.”

The comparison of “Ms. Haberman calling a lie ‘a lie’ just like the claim ‘Why didn’t Obama use the word terrorist’” is a faulty analogy.

Conservatives lied about Obama. He did use that term.

Ms. Haberman is doing what she can to maintain her access journalism. Her paycheck depends on what she writes.

Churches and the Post Office would like a word…

285
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 10:58:24am

re: #121 Barefoot Grin

As some commenters note, this is probably about Hope Hicks rather than Paul Manafort.

[Embedded content]Who’s going to give back the young and beautiful lives (and others) that have been devastated and destroyed by the phony Russia Collusion Witch Hunt? They journeyed down to Washington, D.C., with stars in their eyes and wanting to help our nation…They went back home in tatters!

lets be 100% constitutionally clear, for those who write tweets and dont understand how the constitution works:

no one. absolutely no one has any sort of “right” to not be accused, investigated, or ultimately even charged with a crime.

being released, exonerated or found “not guilty” doesnt mean the process should not have taken place

286
Big Beautiful Door  May 27, 2018 • 10:59:07am

re: #284 Blind Frog Belly White

Churches and the Post Office would like a word…

Technically not businesses.

287
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 10:59:24am

re: #281 HappyWarrior

Then why are you running? I have to say. I never thought she was a hero. Must be nice to get clemency and then run for that same President’s party arguing that the Dems are just as bad. Chelsea is privilege defined.

Her fifteen minutes were up ages ago. (I need to put an asterisk on my hyperbole of “ages” and “fifteen minutes.”)

288
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 11:01:06am

re: #283 Blind Frog Belly White

There are people out there who, either for pay or for free, take pictures from the internet that they know are not related to a particular event about which they wish to propagandize. They use them to create memes to push their particular ideology.

These people are liars. They are spreading falsehoods knowingly.

Other people see these memes, and because they share that ideology and believe the pictures are truth, they share them with all their friends.

They spread falsehoods unknowingly. Are these people liars?

Similarly, there are people out there who make up fake statistics to push their ideology.
For instance, there’s a false statistic out there, that 81% of white murder victims were killed by a black murderer.

That’s a lie, and the person who created that “statistic” told a lie.

Trump retweeted an image containing that false statistic back in November of 2015.

It’s a lie, and Trump’s a liar as well as a bullshitter. But in retweeting that lie, did Trump himself lie? He probably believes it.

I addressed that in my comment you responded to (about the population of my town). They are misinformed.

Continuing to spread such falsehood after being shown what is true is lying.

289
jaunte  May 27, 2018 • 11:03:45am
290
ObserverArt  May 27, 2018 • 11:05:31am

I guess it is time to give up doing Photoshops.

It’s been fun.

291
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 11:06:08am

re: #140 Renaissance_Man

I see no possible problems arising from this at all.

Nothing new as the article says.

If the originator can sell the loan and servicing/collection risk,. He’s got nothing to lose

Decoupling the underwriting g risk from collection was a horrible mistake

292
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 11:06:28am

Yay, my weather radio just popped on with a severe thunderstorm watch, for large hail, damaging winds, and tornadoes.

293
HappyWarrior  May 27, 2018 • 11:07:08am

re: #289 jaunte

[Embedded content]

The thing is he’s constantly dishonest while portraying himself as someone who is a straight shooter. He’s a bullshit artist.

294
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:07:24am
The comparison of “Ms. Haberman calling a lie ‘a lie’ just like the claim ‘Why didn’t Obama use the word terrorist’” is a faulty analogy.

Conservatives lied about Obama. He did use that term.

Okay, let’s dissect this: At the famous “Please proceed, Governor” debate, Mitt Romney said Obama didn’t call it an act of terror for several days, despite Obama saying it the very morning after.

It was not true. It was a demonstrable falsehood, to coin a phrase. But I’m 98% certain Mitt Romney thought it was. Romney would have been a total fucking moron to say it if he knew it wasn’t true. He’d heard it from the echo chamber of the Right.

So, you could say it was a lie. But was Romney lying when he said it?

Now, as for it being a faulty analogy, I disagree. The Right acted, and continues to act as if using the term ‘Radical Islamic Terrorism’ has some talismanic power, and now it looks to me as if the Left thinks using the term ‘lie’ has similar power.

295
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:10:53am

re: #290 ObserverArt

I guess it is time to give up doing Photoshops.

It’s been fun.

Are you attempting to convince people of something you know is not true?

No?

Then quit yer bellyachin’.

296
mmmirele  May 27, 2018 • 11:11:31am

re: #213 sagehen

um… that’s not a bird of paradise, it’s a hibiscus. This is bird of paradise:

[Embedded content]

That’s what they call them here…”tropical bird of paradise.”

297
Citizen K  May 27, 2018 • 11:13:53am

re: #294 Blind Frog Belly White

Okay, let’s dissect this: At the famous “Please proceed, Governor” debate, Mitt Romney said Obama didn’t call it an act of terror for several days, despite Obama saying it the very morning after.

It was not true. It was a demonstrable falsehood, to coin a phrase. But I’m 98% certain Mitt Romney thought it was. Romney would have been a total fucking moron to say it if he knew it wasn’t true. He’d heard it from the echo chamber of the Right.

So, you could say it was a lie. But was Romney lying when he said it?

Now, as for it being a faulty analogy, I disagree. The Right acted, and continues to act as if using the term ‘Radical Islamic Terrorism’ has some talismanic power, and now it looks to me as if the Left thinks using the term ‘lie’ has similar power.

Here’s where my problem is: it’s still a lie. It might not have been the lie of the person who said it specifically, but it’s a lie. Someone passing along the lie because they believe it does not make it not a lie. And Trump has lied, in ways that Dems have and got called lies before (how many promises has Trump made that were broken or turned to bullshit that compare or overshadow ‘Politifact’s Lie Of The Year’ in ‘if you like your doctor, you can keep them’?), and yet they go out of their way not to use direct language, hemming and hawing and giving him room to act like he was just misinformed and just wouldn’t have said that if he actually knew better.

It’s consistent use of weasely language in ways they absolutely never ever do when they’re calling out Dems (which is why Haberman’s tweet saying that the Clinton Campaign ‘lied, and with sanctimony’ keeps getting brought up). Look how powerful the impression is left when people are consistently told Clinton ‘lied’, while brushing off Trump and his ‘myriad of falsehoods and misrepresentations’.

298
A Cranky One  May 27, 2018 • 11:17:21am

re: #256 Dave In Austin

I’m getting a sense that there are a bunch of cult45ers out there who are on the cusp of violence towards Democrats. Is it just me or does anyone else sense that.

It’s been decades since I’ve fired or even held a gun. But the last six months or so I’ve been considering the purchase of a short barrel 12 gauge shotgun for self defense. For the reason stated above; I’m seriously worried that some Trumperoids are anxious to start a civil war or attack “libruls”.

And the fact that I feel the need to even consider purchasing a firearm pisses me off.

299
William Lewis  May 27, 2018 • 11:18:08am

re: #289 jaunte

[Embedded content]

How to tell if Trump is lying? His lips are moving!

300
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:19:30am

re: #288 Anymouse 🌹

I addressed that in my comment you responded to (about the population of my town). They are misinformed.

Continuing to spread such falsehood after being shown what is true is lying.

You know, this is something I used to struggle with. I used to post on an archery and bowhunting forum (I used to build and shoot wooden longbows), which of course attracted mostly a conservative audience. And of course, being argumentative by nature, I gravitated to the ‘Community’ forum, which they maintain to keep politics out of the rest of the forums.

I spent a lot of time and energy digging up facts and evidence to counter the demonstrable falsehoods that were rife there.

For example, the claim that tax cuts increase tax revenues. Nobody who actually studies this believes it. Even Conservative economists no longer make the claim. But these folks all believe it. I posted - MULTIPLE TIMES - the graph of tax revenues in constant dollars, showing that every time we cut taxes, revenues FELL, and didn’t reach the same point for 4-6 years after the cut.

A month or so later, they’d say it again.

They still believed it, even with after presented with proof it wasn’t true. Truth, evidence, what have you - it didn’t make a dent in their belief.

So, were they lying?

301
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 11:19:42am

re: #294 Blind Frog Belly White

Okay, let’s dissect this: At the famous “Please proceed, Governor” debate, Mitt Romney said Obama didn’t call it an act of terror for several days, despite Obama saying it the very morning after.

It was not true. It was a demonstrable falsehood, to coin a phrase. But I’m 98% certain Mitt Romney thought it was. Romney would have been a total fucking moron to say it if he knew it wasn’t true. He’d heard it from the echo chamber of the Right.

So, you could say it was a lie. But was Romney lying when he said it?

Now, as for it being a faulty analogy, I disagree. The Right acted, and continues to act as if using the term ‘Radical Islamic Terrorism’ has some talismanic power, and now it looks to me as if the Left thinks using the term ‘lie’ has similar power.

Mitt Romney lied. He knew it was false when he said it. The “please proceed” remark was specifically to call him out for a lie (that Obama didn’t speak of terrorism on the same day of a terror attack). Romney claimed it was fourteen days.

He only won the first presidential debate because he employed a Gish Gallop (lying through a firehose of true and false statements, restating those, and adding opinions which are not facts).

I’m not sure why you are so resistant to using the term “lie” when “lie” is the correct term. “Radical Islamic Terror” has magical power for right wingers because it specifically ignores right wing terror and Christian religious terror, which has killed many more people in the USA.

Haberman works for the same fascist-curious newspaper that Judith Miller worked for as a stenographer for the GW Bush administration. She helped lie us into a war against a nation which did us no harm, and arguably caused the rise of that same “radical Islamic terror” we call the so-called Islamic State today.

302
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 11:20:11am

re: #172 Blind Frog Belly White

No, I don’t think that’s it. I think she’s being pedantic about the word ‘lie’.

[Embedded content]

Key to understanding, not just of Haberman’s caginess around the word lie, but MUCH more importantly of Trump himself:

The reality is that what he does can be hard to label because, as anyone who has worked for him will tell you in candor, ***********he often thinks whatever he says is what’s real*********.

and if he only “thinks” it’s real
and it is “in fact” not real,
that is the definition of “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office”

303
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 11:22:37am

re: #297 Citizen K

(clip)

It’s consistent use of weasely language in ways they absolutely never ever do when they’re calling out Dems (which is why Haberman’s tweet saying that the Clinton Campaign ‘lied, and with sanctimony’ keeps getting brought up). Look how powerful the impression is left when people are consistently told Clinton ‘lied’, while brushing off Trump and his ‘myriad of falsehoods and misrepresentations’.

Yup, that is exactly the reason my cousin in Michigan gives for voting for Dr. Jill Stein. “Clinton is a liar.” She is a victim of the default position of people like Haberman that Democrats lie (even when they don’t) but Republicans are “misinformed,” “putting an asterisk on their hyperbole,” &c.

304
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:22:51am

re: #301 Anymouse 🌹

Mitt Romney lied. He knew it was false when he said it.

Sorry? You really think that he’d tell such an easily debunked lie in the middle of a televised debate?

I think that’s nonsense.

305
Anymouse 🌹  May 27, 2018 • 11:25:10am

re: #304 Blind Frog Belly White

Sorry? You really think that he’d tell such an easily debunked lie in the middle of a televised debate?

I think that’s nonsense.

Yes I do. And it was debunked during a live debate.

“Do you think Trump would tell such an easily debunked lie in the middle of a televised debate?”

306
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:31:04am

re: #305 Anymouse 🌹

Yes I do. And it was debunked during a live debate.

“Do you think Trump would tell such an easily debunked lie in the middle of a televised debate?”

Romney wouldn’t, because it would be debunked, and he’d be called a liar.

Trump would, because while people were finding the evidence to show it wasn’t true he’d tell 5 more falsehoods and it would all get lost.

This is what I mean by Gingrich preparing the way for Trump. Gingrich lies. A lot. He knows they’re lies, and that he’ll get called out on them. But he just keeps going and doesn’t explain, or apologize. And the Right loved him for that. So, when Trump came along - he who doesn’t know or care what’s true most of the time - the base were ready for him.

307
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 11:33:00am

re: #304 Blind Frog Belly White

Sorry? You really think that he’d tell such an easily debunked lie in the middle of a televised debate?

I think that’s nonsense.

Absolutely. It is part of an abusers handbook and making you question it is what he wants.

308
ericblair  May 27, 2018 • 11:33:12am

re: #306 Blind Frog Belly White

Romney wouldn’t, because it would be debunked, and he’d be called a liar.

Sure he’d lie, because he also knows he’s a Republican.

309
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 11:35:19am

re: #307 JordanRules

Absolutely. It is part of an abusers handbook and making you question it is what he wants.

My bad, thought yall were talking Trump. But Romney would do it too in service to the talking points that must be repeated.

310
allegro  May 27, 2018 • 11:40:42am

It appears the essence of what is being argued is about semantics to a large degree but it’s a very important issue. Maggie is trying to sound highly educated and impress with her brilliance rather than simply communicate. Her “asterisk on hyperbole” is a great example. It leaves the reader missing the point entirely and instead spend metal energy on wondering WTF does that even mean.

For instance:

I have written stories about his lies, falsehoods, whoppers, half-truths, salesman-like stretches. The reality is that what he does can be hard to label because, as anyone who has worked for him will tell you in candor, he often thinks whatever he says is what’s real.

Translate: Yeah, he lies a lot. But sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s lying on purpose or he’s just crazy, not knowing truth from lies.

The first is obfuscating by gently dancing around with literary flourishes, softening the importance of the issue, i.e. the POTUS is a liar and crazy. The second is right to the point and clearly understandable to readers who are quickly scanning which even the most educated among us do when reading tweets and articles.

Maggie knows the difference.

311
Blind Frog Belly White  May 27, 2018 • 11:41:03am

re: #309 JordanRules

My bad, thought yall were talking Trump. But Romney would do it too in service to the talking points that must be repeated.

Sorry, I disagree. I think Romney is a politician above all, which means he’s cautious. I think he really believed it, which is why he said it with such conviction, because he thought all Obama could do was to mumble something about words. I think he was genuinely taken aback by Obama’s blunt refutation, and poleaxed by the moderator agreeing.

312
JordanRules  May 27, 2018 • 11:55:14am

re: #311 Blind Frog Belly White

Sorry, I disagree. I think Romney is a politician above all, which means he’s cautious. I think he really believed it, which is why he said it with such conviction, because he thought all Obama could do was to mumble something about words. I think he was genuinely taken aback by Obama’s blunt refutation, and poleaxed by the moderator agreeing.

I grew up with the stereotype that all politicians lie, not that they were too cautious. Many are cautious and many lie so I believe both things could happen. I believe Republicans flat out lie a lot more for various reasons and I don’t believe Romney is above this.

313
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 12:02:45pm

re: #184 Dr Lizardo

That’s how Trump lies so effortlessly. He believes a lot of this BS, even though it’s obvious BS and easily proven to be BS.

That’s what Kellyanne Conway meant by “alternative facts”. If someone believes in something strongly enough, it becomes a reality to that person.

The human mind is infinitely malleable, as George Orwell once famous observed.

That is mental illness

314
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 12:08:03pm

re: #207 Blind Frog Belly White

No. It’s an important difference and why Trump is so different from all the other lying politicians. Lying politicians are generally careful about it. They shade the truth, or use turns of phrase to convey the wrong impression, and if found out they hide behind those. They are limited by their fear of exposure.

Trump is not limited by any fear of being found out. He doesn’t care if what he says is true or not. He’s not tethered to reality as liars are. This is a big difference.

This partially because he quickly found that Congress and the press would let him get away with it and not call him on anything

It took all three parties to get to this place

315
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 12:16:55pm

re: #229 Citizen K

This. We’ve already had people say, on the record, how Trump gives the game away in private, that he says that he lies and calls shit fake news precisely to try and delegitimize the media. Trying to get him off the hook because of some belief that ‘he somehow believes it’ is bullshit.

And yes, ‘demonstrable falsehoods’, ‘stretching the truth’, ‘unconfirmed claims’ are definitely less powerful than saying ‘lie’. What have Dems been told consistently about having to use direct, honest language and how part of our problem is being ‘too clever by half’ and ‘too wonky’? THIS is part of that: the word ‘lie’ is powerful because it’s short, direct, and to the point. ‘Demonstrable falsehoods’ and the like get people to tune out and give way too much wiggle room as euphemisms and other kinds of floral language do.

MS-13 is now a thing. Its shorthand to represent an idea. Good or bad it’s here to stay
Five characters

Lie is three characters. Short direct and enough to the point to get the job done the same way

Like I said yesterday this entire administration is “lie-gate”

316
dangerman  May 27, 2018 • 12:19:30pm

re: #240 CleverToad

Will probably regret sticking an oar in, but here is my humble opinion on the lies/bullshit/shades of truthiness thingy:

I want to see the word ‘lie’ used loudly and often.
Not because it describes how Trump sees/understands the truth or otherwise of what he’s saying — that will still be getting argued in the history books. But because words matter in how people see him NOW.

I just want consistent, persistent messaging to be engrained in the public consciousness by repetition. Trump = lie. Trump = liar. Trump = false. Trump = take with a bucket of salt. ‘THIS’ is a fact but Trump says ‘that’ — preferably in that order, so that the true statement comes first. If Trump says it, don’t believe it.
Like dripping water, carving out a defined channel in the listener’s mind — the words Trump/lie immediately linked.
And if we can expand that to the GOP in general, all the better. GOP = Trump = lie.

This here ^^^^^^^^^^^


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