Woo hoo! The Dems can't marginalize themselves fast enough, it seems.

Can there be a decent left? Not within this party.

Impeach on what grounds? What kind of crack or they smoking?

Go ahead, impeach...you think Cheney doesn't support this?

MORE from the article

“To a person, every other person in the room who spoke [besides Clark and Boyle] was opposed to it. Every single one,” one participant said, citing both practical and political objections that were raised.

So. It is just a crackpot idea. We can all relax now. It's only John Conyers, and last time I checked, he was still ranking-member of the Judiciary Committee and not its Chairman. :-)

I think Boyle is one of the divestment from Israel jerks and my recollection is that he also thinks Hawaii should be independent. Clark, as everyone knows, is a washed up Stalinist who hasn't had an original thought since 1966. I don't think the Bush Administration is worrying too much about these freaks.

Y'know, every time I think the left can't get any more nutty, they top themselves. Go for it, guys. It'll rally support to our side.

Idiots.

Awww....did these guys also cry when Clinton purgerized? (Is that even a correct tense?) Please, war by weekend...I'm so tired of these people.

Unbelievable. This just makes me sick.

The sad thing is, I bet a ton of lefties - and the uninformed public - will nod in outraged agreement that this righteous President seeking to remove a murderous terrorist-supporting tyrant deserves to be lumped with the likes of Nixon and Clinton. No, wait, Clinton's impeachment was merely the result of a temper-tantrum by the far-right.

G-d help our president.

Not such a bad idea. Let Dick Cheney run things for a while...

Agree. The Left can't do enough to show how stoopid and irrelevant they are anymore.

One columnist said, "A thing may be true, even if President Bush believes it." That's their problem -- they've been so wrapped up in partisan politics since the '60s that they just can't imagine a Republican actually doing the right thing (no pun intended). In this case, they simply can't separate a national survival issue from the party in power. Amazing.

This is why the American Left should never again be given control of the country.

A frank discussion of impeachment should be over in well under two hours. Did they notice that the Constitution makes Bush Commander-in-Chief? or that Congress has specifically authorized him to do everything he has done? Did they even bother to note that Republicans have majorities in both the House and the Senate, making impeachment a practical impossibility?

This is political theater; theater of the absurd.

First, there's a republican controlled House, so the articles won't get off the ground

Second, Bush is immensly popular, so this would just blow up in the Dems face.

Third--RAMSEY CLARK of the IAC (think ANWSER) is behind this.....that is a declaration of forfiture in any argument

It just proves that the Dems cannot stand being out of power. They just don't know how to behave as the minority party.

Memo to Daschle and Pelosi: The people of the country have spoken and you lost.

70% of the people in the country support military action according to polls released today. Go ahead. Bring an impeachment bill up.

And doesn't Conyers represent the largest Muslim constituency? Methinks I smell a rat.

This little tidbit from the article should be shouted from the rooftops:

"In November of 2002, WND reported that former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark had been retained by Iraq to represent that regime's legal interests."

I wonder what Clark's fellow conspiracy theorists would make of this if the tables were turned? We don't have to imagine, since every such relationship among non-lefties is automatically construed as evidence of corruption and evil.

Indeed this is absurd, and the players are fringe cranks and yes I mean Conyers, too.

But what is chilling about these people, and a lot of others who think like them, is their hatred of Republicans in general and Bush in particular is so blindingly virulent, that they couldn't care less about our national security as long as they can find a way to regain power. I'll never vote for another Democrat.

Sorry to disagree, but I think it's a good idea. Let those who think that Operation Sans Weasels is a bad idea stand up and be counted; let those who think that for the President to act on behalf of the US without permission from the UN do that, too.

I think it's much more honest than those who voted in favor of the authorization of force resolution in Congress, and then, after the election, started complaining that it actually authorized force.

MarkD (#12): You're right, it may be pandering by Conyers to his local constituents. But whatever benefit it brings him personally is nowhere near the scale of damage this does to the Democratic party, which if they had sense would smack him down in a big way.

But after Bonior and McDermott's treason we know there's neither sense nor courage in the Democratic leadership.

#5 Evil Otto
#9 Curmudgeon

I agree, but it's not "the Left" it's "Democrats." Get it?

#8 Len
Great point, I'll bet they didn't think of that!

Once the war starts, wouldn't they be guilty of treason?

The Democrats are extremists of the partisan kind.

#14 Emmett

Blind hatred is rampant. So sad. Some guy called into a talk show in Seattle today and said that celebrating the return of Elizabeth Smart was drawing attention away from the war and is all a coverup by Pres. Bush.

Huh? At least the host called him a loon and I didn't have to call in to.

#14 Emmett
You are quite right. I once held public office as a Democrat; it is truly shameful and depressing to see what has happened to this once great party. It's not like there was no warning, however. The slide into infantile fascism really started at the 1968 Chicago Convention, when the leadership of the time took such a black eye over the violent suppression of the anti-war mobs outside. Many vowed that it was better to join them than it was to beat them, and the process has accelerated ever since. I think the next manifestation will be the open endorsement of treason, in the form of violent attacks on military bases, once the war against Iraq actually begins.

I had heard rumors about a Bush "impeachment" this last week. I am beginning to think that there is nothing too low that the Dems won't try it. If they are smart they will distance themselves from Ramsey Clark while they still can. Personally, though, I hope they don't so that the rest of the country can see for themselves how nefarious the lefties are.

Conyers, Kaptur, Moran, Clinton, Kennedy and Kerry... busy week for the Democratic party. Even national security and a looming war can't compel them to drop politics and unite with the country. Hell, they're neck and neck with France for despising America (unless they can turn us into another France).

"If Saddam Hussein fails to comply and we fail to act or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of sanctions and ignore the commitments he's made? Well, he will conclude that the international community's lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on doing more to build an arsenal of devastating destruction. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. The stakes could not be higher. Some way, someday, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."
-Pres. Clinton 1998

The United States remains resolved to secure, by whatever means necessary, Iraq's full compliance with its commitment to destroy its weapons of mass destruction. So again, it will be diplomacy backed up by force. So long as diplomacy works, force will not be necessary. At the very moment diplomacy appears not to be working, force will be employed. So, let there be no mistake. This is not a question of breathing room. This is not a question of simply delaying and somehow, then, obviating the need for the use of force should it be required. It will be there.
-Thomas Daschle's Senate remarks Feb 25 1998

text

Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government.
HR 4655 Iraq Liberation Act of 1998

text

Sickening bullshit.

This shows the continuing crack-up of the Democratic Left in this country. I say keep it up guys; the election is coming up sooner than you think. We need a few more Wellstone memorials to remind people which team is which. I think the quote below, from Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" describes the Democrats quite nicely.

When senior officers are angry and insubordinate, and on encountering the enemy rush into battle with no understanding of the feasability of engaging and without awaiting orders from the commander, the army is in a state of collapse.

There is no doubt that Democrats are indeed "angry and insubordinate" to say the least. They take every opportunity to attack the Republicans and the President, but without any intellectual weight or foundation. They attack for the sake of attack with no thougth of what is to come after. They look and act like a party in a state of collapse.

OT - ABC has the show Profiles from the Front Line on right now (East coast).
Watch our troops performing in Afghanistan.
Looks like it's going to be smashing!

John.Conyers@mail.house.gov

The jerks email and website (which by the way has a button to translate it into ARABIC!!!

Conyers Official Website

BTW I was a lifelong Democrat who came from a long line of Democrats. Jimmy Carter cured me.

President Bush should immediately seduce a young intern into giving him oral sex in the Oval Office. Then he should lie about it in front of a TV camera and, most importantly, to a grand jury. His wife should then state that his alleged infidelity is a conspiracy concocted by the nutty right wingers. This way a vast majority of Democrats will rally to his defense.

The Democrats complain that Bush's presidency was handed to him in a court of law....but they want to go to court to have it taken away from him?

WHY do people keep voting for these hypocrites?!!?

The jerks email and website (which by the way has a button to translate it into ARABIC!!!

That's because he represents the district with the largest Arab population in the US. Yes, it would be best if they learned English, but there's nothing particularly wrong with him presenting information in their native language.

Here is the email I wrote to him. Think the SS weinies assigned to guard his sorry ass will pick up the trail?

Oh, so you think you can impeach Bush, huh?

You think by allying with Ramsey Clark, who at this very moment, is on retainer to defend Iraq’s legal interests, will get you ahead politically do you?

Well here is what I think…

You’re a fucking moron and a traitor. I am willing to be one of the two witnesses necessary to hang your sorry ass.

Supporting the representative of our enemy is definitely “giving aid and comfort” to our enemies.

God save your soul, because if it were up to me, I’d squeeze it out of your diseased little body and poke and prod it until you went mad from pain.

People like you deserve their heads on a spike. Mark my words, the American people (yes even those terrorist who so populate your district) will see to it you loose your power. Good riddens you arrogant traitorous piece of herpes infected Twat!

Informed citizen

I think I see what's going on here: The Dems are running out of ways to stir up opposition to the war with Iraq. First they tried blaming the J-E-W-S. That didn't work, so now they're trying to evict the president.

The point is, blaming the Jews didn't work. How reassuring.

the really sad thing is that one sees Boyle and Clark quoted as if they're actual experts on "international law" as opposed to lunatics. Everytime their name are mentioned, immediately following should be:

"Francis Boyle, professor of international aw at the University of Illinois, who believes that Hawaii should be independent and that all non-native Hawaiins expelled, who called a far more prominent law professor at a much better school, Michael Glennon of Tufts, a Nazi and advocated a boycott of his textbook on international law, who routinely refers to Israeli 'genocide' of the Palestinians..."

"Ramsey Clark, former US attorney general, and currently a lawyer for Sloban Milosevic, leader of Yugoslavia during the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo, and for a Rwandan Hutu recently convicted of genocide against the Tutsis, and who also represented a man convicted of lying to the US gov't about his past as a Nazi concentration camp guard..."

Well, I guess Bush's reelection is guaranteed, now.

Maybe Bob Livingston and Lauch Faircloth can give them some pointers on how to run an impeachment.

#26 ray

Infortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. Some WA State Supreme Court justice here just got herself in trouble for DWI and hit and run and all the lefties are crying that she has to resign for breaking the law...the very same lefties that supported Clinton staying in office.

Please!

It doesn't count as hit and run if you're too drunk to realize you hit something.

Could you define "is" for me, please?

#29
YIKES!
I do think it is a bit early to suggest the gallows, though it wouldn't surprise me to see at least Clark occupying the Julius Streicher seat at the future "Noam-berg tribunals". This will surely follow any terrorist WMD attack that results from a failure to take decisive action in Iraq. Fortunately for lefty fifth columnists like Conyers, Lee, Clark, and Chomsky, there will be no such failure.

More activities from the land 'o Conyers, and home to many Muslim voters...

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

Seems that former Rep. Bonior "hampered FBI efforts to investigate terrorist suspects in Detroit" during the last Gulf war. And the FBI caved.

Jimmy:

I agree, but it's not "the Left" it's "Democrats." Get it?

Nah, most Dems aren't that looney. Race obsessed, pandering, and greedy, sure. But not nuts. ;-)

Bring it on! I looking forward to the Democrats' charging Mr.Bush with assault and battery against President Saddam Hussein.

I am not surprised that a college professor was working on the impeachment language. I have 2 college degrees.

2 years ago in Africa I was in conversation with a liberal social science professor from Canada. It was an intelligent and amiable chat.
He said that one solution to the world's woes was to "guarantee everyone a fixed income."

I said, " Are you willing to take a pay cut of about 25% for your socialistic vision in Canada?"

He said, "I don't see why my salary would have to be cut."

Socialist professors just don't understand how the real world works. I am not at all surprised by what college professors and their students say or do. A solution to the liberal non-sense coming out of American universities is make mandatory a 24 month sabbatical for teachers and professors without pay every three years. Let the profs and teachers make a living once in a while instead of sucking off the government tit. Let them try to sell insurance or work construction or own a small business or drive a truck or bag groceries for a living. The profs and teachers need to be connected to the working taxpayers who support them.

After the Dems used Wellstone's memorial service for a Dem pep rally, I thought this is the end of taking Dems seriously. Having voted Dem my whole life, I have come to the conclusion, I just can't vote really for anyone any more. It looks like Dems are UN pushers now, they should all be convicted of treason.

#29 ThatBastard:

Ouch. They might interpret that as threatening.

I'll visit you in prison and bake bring you a cake with a file baked into it. Is chocolate OK? ;-)

OT, but potentially important
Free Republic is going apeshit over the possibility that breaking reports of large scale Iraqi troop movements may indicate a pre-emptive strike against Israel and against US forces in Kuwait. Fox News and now NBC report that large numbers of Iraqi troops are moving toward the Kuwait border and that Scuds are being moved westward toward Israel. NBC even added that the Iraqis are bringing up long-range artillery for a possible anthrax attack against Kuwait City.

BensMom #7,

No, wait, Clinton's impeachment was merely the result of a temper-tantrum by the far-right.

Actually, I'm afraid it was. How many hundreds of millions were spent in order to find that Clinton got a blowjob from an intern and then lied about it? I'm sorry, but if that's the best the Republicans could find on Clinton after hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars, they shouldn't have bothered.

Seriously on topic, the fact that the Republicans were willing to go through with Clinton's impeachment on such trivial grounds is undoubtedly the precedent for trying to impeach Bush on even more trivial grounds. The Republicans, and everyone in elected office, should have thought a lot more before they did it. While Clinton cheapened the office of the President, the Republicans cheapened the instrument by which to bring him down, impeachment. Impeachment is a very serious matter and should not have been invoked as trivially as it was.

I'm not for impeaching Bush by any means. I quite like him and will be voting for him in '04 unless he f*cks up in a major way in the couple of years or so. But I think it's quite clear that the precedent for ridiculous impeachments was set by the Republicans when Clinton was running the show.

Just like the office of the special investigator (or whatever Ken Star was officially) was abolished because the Republicans saw how it was abused, there is a danger that impeachment will become more difficult if it is solely used for partisan purposes. Then, when impeachment is actually necessary, it will be more difficult.

That's not something I want.

# 25 Kathyn

Yes, it was the same with me.

I used to believe in a lot of the political and social distinctions that the Democrats claimed they stood for. Then I wised up and realized 90% of what the Democrats stand for today isn’t about reality and truth, but about trying to put you in your place so they can better regulate your behavior.

#38:

2 years ago in Africa I was in conversation with a liberal social science professor from Canada. It was an intelligent and amiable chat.
He said that one solution to the world's woes was to "guarantee everyone a fixed income."

I said, " Are you willing to take a pay cut of about 25% for your socialistic vision in Canada?"

He said, "I don't see why my salary would have to be cut."

Somewhere right now in the great beyond, Ayn Rand is laughing her ass off.

This sort of garbage is why I'll vote GOP until I die. After that, I'll be voting Democrat.

...and this would be the same Ramsey Clark who was behind the recent anti-war demonstrations in league with the Workers World Party, ANSWER, Movement of Justice and Peace, NION and the kaffeyah clad mullahs on the dias shouting "Allah Akbah"...?

Right! Does Conyers mind that he will now forever be linked to the Communist behind the anti-war movement?
Wouldn't that be treason in another lifetime?

Just wondering?

Drat, I was hoping that the Dems in a final fit of suicidal frenzy would actually bring it on.

Perhaps a bad move JamesW, "I'll vote X party until I die." That's part of the problem we have now... people that decided to become Democrats when they were a viable, pro-American party (think JFK), and still do today without thought out of habit. Blind loyalty has encouraged the arrogance and corruption we see now.

I loathe what the Dems have become, but if they were to come around with better policies and principles than the GOP, who could always backslide, the Dems would get my vote. Just never miss an election and make your voice hear about what you want from leaders. May the best party win, but they'll have to earn it.

...said Francis Boyle, an Illinois law professor who has been working on the impeachment language with Clark.

Though this nitwit Boyle is an embarrassment to Illinois, remember that it is also the home state of Donald Rumsfeld. Redeemed!

#42 Ariel,
You said:
"Actually, I'm afraid it was. How many hundreds of millions were spent in order to find that Clinton got a blowjob from an intern and then lied about it? "

I'm not even a Clinton basher, but I think you missed the whole point. Clinton broke federal law when he lied under oath. He should have resigned the day it was discovered. Nixon didn't even know about Watergate until after it had happened, and his own party forced him to resign because he lied to the media (and the public), something that is not illegal.

Even more off topic

Here's a great story by the London Times about the failing relationship with the head weasel:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

#42 Ariel,

The Republicans did not go after Clinton because he was fooling around with an intern. They went after him because he lied, under oath, in a legal proceeding. The subject of that proceeding was Clinton's propensity to sexually persue women with whom he came in contact because of his postion(s) of responsibility. This brought up questions about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Are you suggesting that, because the subject was sex, Clinton -- who was the the President of the United States as well an attorney -- should have been given a pass for lying under oath?

If he was not guilty of the charges for he was being questioned, then why not answer truthfully? If he did, in fact, abuse power, then should he not have been called to answer? But to give him license to lie is a dangerous precident.

#44 Apothesis:

Somewhere right now in the great beyond, Ayn Rand is laughing her ass off.

ROTFL! And very much appropriate - if Ayn Rand were alive today, she'd be on the news telling people what a bunch of idiots Ramsey "that's my final ANSWER" Clark and John "Useful Idiot Traitor Senator" Conyers are. (Think of Oriana Fallaci (sp?) with a Russian accent and a much cooler attitude.)

The Democrats are just digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole that they may never recover from. I'll put it in very stark and plain terms - they hate George Bush with a passion and they are maniacally jealous that their guy (Al Gore) didn't get elected. And every time Bush succeeds, jumping over every obstacle Democrats and the Left™ throw at him, they get more and more creative in how to defeat him. It's a constant Wile E Coyote vs. the Roadrunner cartoon where no matter what Wile E does, he finds his fate the same way - right over the ledge and at the failure of Acme supplies.

#41 Atomic Conspiracy

Might some of these Iraqi troop movements actually be a surrender maneuver by the generals? Saddam says attack, so they go forward with a different plan? Like staying alive and being around to run the country after Saddam has gone. It's that or Saddam has gone completely insane. Hey, wait. Saddam is completely insane. Hmmm...

Clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with sexual offenses. He was the chief law enforcement official of the country, and lied under oath. And didn't just lie but engaged in a series of actions to undermine federal judicial and investigative proceedings, including attempting to suborn perjury.

But what do you expect from the man who got away with rape because he was the state's Attorney General at the time?

OT: #28 robert:

The language gap is a problem. It causes many, many problems. I live in Montreal now, and I see the problems it causes every day. Yes, canada is unique with the quebecois, but that is besides the point. The faster they learn english, the faster the see what America has to offer, the faster they become better "americans". Think about, if you can only comminucate effectively in Arabic, that severly limits one's capacity to read the papers, watch tv, and the internet. It is from this the we disseminate information and form opinions. Now, would you rather have our new Arab immigrants read arab newspapers and watch Al-Jeezra, or look at english publications that offer differing opinions? I know I would rather them read about anything other than some saudi-backed bullshit propaganda.

Back On Topic: as for Mr. Conyers, what a bastard. Reading his site made me want to fly to DC and kick him in the throat. However, if the war goes well and the aftermath proceeds as well as can be expected, and his people see this, it could really come around to bite him in the ass of fall 2004. until that time, he needs to shut up and have his laywers see if HE is commiting treason.

Cheers,
Jordan

Ahh, the right wing smearing of Democrats and liberals (as opposed to authoritarian leftists) continues. How many other members of Congress were there besides the grandstanding Mr. Conyers? Answer: None.

Here's a quote that hasn't been mentioned:

Conyers said through a spokeswoman Thursday that he has no interest in introducing the articles of impeachment.

So, pea-brained little fascists like #29 and #39 can relax and wipe the foam from their mouths.

I forgot the link to the above-mentioned quote.

Better luck witch hunting next time.

Thanks Deacon. It would be wrong to smear anti-Semites and anti-Americans like Conyers, Hilliard, Kaptur, Moran, Murray, McKinney, Clinton, Carter, McDermott, Bonior, Jackson and Sharpton.
But how is it wrong to comment on remarks they made on their own to defile our country, its goverment, and our values? They were the ones doing the smearing, of Jews and the USA, but we shouldn't be free address it? You must think like the leadership of the party that their beliefs are welcome within the fold.

Clinton and Carter anti-semites and anti-American? Buy a fricking clue. And here's a preemptive "FUCK YOU" to anyone that thinks that all or most Democrats are anti-Semites or anti-Americans.

#31 lardog,
i take some serious offense to you referring to tufts as a far superior school to U of I (where i'm a student, naturally). What school is the 3rd best in the nation for engineering? 8th for business?

Jerk.

We dont take francis boyle seriously, he's a nut. we deal with him alot...we actively run anti-divestment campaigns (he started it). he doesn't pose a threat, cause he's so loony.
if you'd like to tell him what you think, please dont hesitate to email him at fboyle@law.uiuc.edu
or better yet, call him in his office, 217-333-7954

Deacon: I never said Clinton and Carter were anti-Semites, no matter how many weapons or how much support they gave to the dictators who've vowed to destroy Israel. If I say there are Catholics and Jews in my family tree, it doesn't mean each person is Both Catholic and Jewish.

You've lost it man. Right in your face a list of successful and influential Democrats who have said and done dreadful things while in the public eye. There are skilled speakers who've represented the party professionally, and look what comes out when the press is there! I shudder to think what they've mentally edited out as too risky to say on the record.

All this is fact, not speculation. You could own up to it and say there is obviously a problem that desperately must be fixed. You could vow to use your voice to try and get the party to turn itself around. Instead you cast blame on the public while shielding those that spread malice and filth.
If it makes you feel better, fine, but it doesn't help what used to be a strong, loyal and vibrant party one little bit when you cheer them on as they screw over everyone who believed in them at one point. Keep defending all the worst they have to offer, and wave goodbye to the growing stream of former supporters heading out the door.

Bildo #50,

I'm not even a Clinton basher, but I think you missed the whole point. Clinton broke federal law when he lied under oath.

No, I got the point. The Republicans invested hundreds of millions of dollars investigating Clinton. Hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. They couldn't get him on real estate money. They had problems with Paula Jones meaning anything. They finally found that they could get him with Lewinsky.

And they got him for lying under oath about a blowjob? In business terms, the Republican ROI for spending hundreds of millions of dollars and coming up almost completely emptyhanded was just about zero.

I think it's bad that he lied under oath. But given how much pressure he was under - people had spent hundreds of millions of dollars in an attempted character assassination - I don't think it was an impeachable offense.

RadioMattM #51,

The Republicans did not go after Clinton because he was fooling around with an intern. They went after him because he lied, under oath, in a legal proceeding.

That's simply not true. The investigations into Clinton began long before Lewinsky even worked for him. What was the original "scandal" that never bore fruit? Something -gate, IIRC.

Are you suggesting that, because the subject was sex, Clinton -- who was the the President of the United States as well an attorney -- should have been given a pass for lying under oath?

I think there's no reason whatsoever that a President (or any other elected official) should have to discuss their personal life in public. I think that the way Giuliani handled his personal issues is much more dignified - he avoided all contact with the press. The Lewinsky issue should have been left to a similar fate - he should not have had to testify about whether he got a blowjob.

I don't think he should be given a pass about lying under oath - but he should have never been made to discuss whether he had a blowjob or not.

If he was not guilty of the charges for he was being questioned, then why not answer truthfully?

Because hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on character assassination. He was, I'm sure, beginnning to wonder if it would ever end.

If he did, in fact, abuse power, then should he not have been called to answer?

Sure, but could you find something that actually mattered? Not whether he slept with his interns, but if he was in bed with the Chinese?

***

Also, not to make too fine of a point of it, but part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now is because of the Clinton impeachment proceedings. In 1998, everyone thought that Clinton attacking Iraq hardcore would have been a case of "Wag the Dog".

I don't know whether Clinton would have been able to overcome his innate fecklessness in order to go through with the attack. But it has to be said that the Republican initiative to try to impeach the President for such a trivial action verifiably was not in our national interest.

this is an easy one : Ramsey Clark, Charge with treason based on his activities in Bagdad ten days ago, or commit for Psycholigical exam based on his published writings(paranoid delusions). John Conyers, RICO charge for consorting and conspiring with Ramsey Clark, or treason, for attempting to overthrow the government. In any case the way the wheels of justice turn they would be older if not wiser eveven if they beat the rap.

Deacon #60 says -

Clinton and Carter anti-semites and anti-American? Buy a fricking clue.

You must admit that Carter is extremely hostile toward Israel. And his bashing of our current president from foreign soil is not the behavior of a patriot. Here’s a clue: Bail on the Dems. There is not much worthwhile in their platform and they associate with some very unsavory individuals and groups.

It would be wrong to smear anti-Semites and anti-Americans like Conyers, Hilliard, Kaptur, Moran, Murray, McKinney, Clinton, Carter, McDermott, Bonior, Jackson and Sharpton.

You were sloppy in your smearing. I couldn't tell what you were saying.

And if you think the Republicans don't have an equal number of racists, bigots, and nutballs hanging out in their party, I've got a piece of beach front property to sell you, with your neighbors Trent Lott and Tom DeLay.

So, Clinton and Carter are anti-American huh? Right-wing bullshit. And a goddamn lie. Carter is naive and irritatingly condescending, but an anti-American. Dear lord, you super-patriots are unbearable.

#64

Are you Joe Stalin?

OK folks: Here's a few KNOWN fanatics, extremists, nutballs, and racists:

Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell. There are others. The Republican party only holds power now because all the Klansmen in the South, and Klan-lite figures like Lott and Thurmond, switched to the Republican party. So jeez, I guess if you don't want to be a racist, you better switch parties.

Oh, and weren't Hilliard and McKinney defeated in DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES.

#66, and you sir are a fool.

Conyers is just seeking publicity. The problem is that we are at war. He and the hollywood mouthies talk loud but they do not carry a big stick.

Bush and his people must stay the course set. They must be strong. They must present their case strongly, publicly and often, and they must hold the mirror up to these demagogues like Conyers and Clark, Daschle and Co. and periodically let them have it.

Decisive and strong leadership, both in word and deed will strengthen the core of this country and will marginalize the ever shifting left Dems, where they will eventually rejoin the country or disappear like the dodo birds that they are.

#68

A gymnast in wits you are not. An authoritarian without respect for democracy you remain.

You are someone who wants to psychologically recondition critics and imprison domestic opponents. But I am a fool--Joe Stalin is dead. Are you Kim Jong-Il?

Please don't feed the trolls.

Deacon, you are right that both parties have their wackos, but what is a voter to do? I prefer a party that is more adept at threat assessment regarding our national security and appears far more capable at dealing with the bad guys. I also look for a party that is a little less inclined toward socialism. Like I said earlier, bail on the Dems.

#45

This sort of garbage is why I'll vote GOP until I die. After that, I'll be voting Democrat.

You live in Chicago?

The Klan? Did a little Byrd named Robert tell you that? It takes true arrogance to put an actual Klan recruiter in a respected leadership position. Hilliard and McKinney ran with the blessing of the Democratic party and would have been allowed to hold higher office had they won. Just like all the rest. At least the voters had the sense to shun the bigots that the party ran.

Keep defending them. Keep trying to deflect attention from the public record. It'll guarantee that nothing gets fixed.

#42 Ariel

The only point I'd be willing to concede is the blowjob is all that the prosecuters were left with. I still think the Clinton slime team was guilty of much more. They simply managed to hide it or destroy the evidence better than, say, Nixon. They also lucked out by having people remain loyal to them to a much greater extent than they deserved or than they were themselves.

Deacon Frost

For the record, I agree that most Dems are probably not anti-American or anti-semitic. My dad is registered Dem and he is certainly not anti-American or anti-semitic. What I'd like to know is how a litany of loonies such as mentioned by Model4 has developed in the Democratic party. How is it that the noisemakers (Conyers, and that San Francisco bimbo) are allowed to seemingly authoritatively speak for the Democratic party?

Raoul # 73 - That is funny!

#67 Nutball Democommie,

Are you Joe Stalin?

You stupid son of a bitch, I'm Joe Stalin. You said so your ignorant self.
[/sarcasm]

Kleagle Robert Byrd. All I need to say.

And, dude. Need to work on your ad hominem you pus-nutted dick-licking worthless asshole son of a dog-fucking whore.

Ya can't just go around calling everyone Stalin.

Be creative. I know that’s hard for a waste of breathable air like yourself (I’m surprised your little mind can keep your heat beating and your diaphragm moving, but it looks like you’re lucky like that), but try a little.

(Do you get the Idea that I don’t think very much of you at all? Good. I don’t. Quit eating acid by the sheet. You might come down in a few years)

#70 deacon, sometime it is better to throw something away than to attempt to recondition it. Ramsey Clark fits the case for disposal,not rehab. You sir are not in Ramsey clark's league, you are looking for the edges though.

#71 someone: You just don't know man, but Deacon Frost used to have awesome rational posts here, polite and thorough and willing to address everyone in a straightforward dialog. A real asset from a guy who represented the left pretty damn well. Now he's in another thread crying "Gulf of Tonkin" over Iraq.

I can only hope the real Deacon is on the couch having a beer while his kid is using his LGF handle in another room. But you're right, stuff like this has become too troll-like to entertain.

Oh, for the record I don't believe nor mean to imply that most Dems are anti-American or anti-Semitic. But they're seen as being supportive of and cozy with those in their party who plainly are.

Gangrene on an extremity. What to do, what to do?

#77 Iron Fist. Man you are trully eloquant. Whos that Kim Jong Il guy the deacon was talking about. He wasn't trying to say something untowards to me was he. I mean I didn't tell him to open his mouth an prove that he was a fool.

NTropy,

The only point I'd be willing to concede is the blowjob is all that the prosecuters were left with. I still think the Clinton slime team was guilty of much more.

That could well be true. I honestly have no idea. All I know is that if were up to me, I would not have spent hundreds of millions of dollars investigating one thing after another. I would not have impeached a President on such trivial grounds for fear that my opponents might do it on even more trivial grounds (as is the current example).

Much as it pains me to admit it, the good but foul-mouthed deacon has a point.
Sorry, folks, this is about the authoritarian left, not the Democrats, and the two are not synonymous, anymore than fundo-wackies and Republicans are synonymous. I bailed out of the Democratic Party partly because of leftist influence, but that is not the same as a blanket characterization of the whole party.
Equating "Democrats" with "totalitarian appeasers" obscures the real issues for partisan advantage. It also justifies the eventual destruction of the two party system if we equate one of the major parties with a wartime enemy, which is essentially what is being done here. If the Democrats must share Saddam's and Al Qaeda's respective fates, what kind of political system do we have left?

now, i'm liberal, so i want bush out of office, and very much so. however, this impeachment idea is still just stupid.

i say we just get rid of the house of representatives. very little good seems to come out of it. i think we should replace it with, say, a smaller body (100-200 reps), elected nationally based on a party ballot (something like what israel does for its knesset). the senate would be left untouched. this would encourage more, smaller political parties (two parties is better than one, but it's not enough). also, with less representatives, the house could have actual debate, like the senate does. another benefit: by disassociating elections from any concept of local districting, there will be less pork in the budget, since national representatives will actually represent the nation, not tiny districts.

Look folks, when people start talking about trying Democrats for treason, I see red. Call most Democrats a traitor to their face, and they'll give you a well-deserved punch in the nose. Accusing those who oppose your party of disloyalty and treason is the oldest authoritarian trick in the book.

Hilliard and McKinney were thrown out of office by Democrats. And yes, Model4, party leaders would have allowed them to hold higher office. Do you want to know why they would have let them hold office, once elected? D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.

As far as the Gulf of Tonkin remark--

Are the Iraqis getting ready for a sneak attack? I don't know--let's watch ABC news and find out! Seriously, if they put themselves into position where they could do some harm, they'd expose themselves to a full range of intelligence, from humans to satellites. The entire thing just seems phony. However, the Gulf of Tonkin comparison is flawed and premature--no attack has been launched and the Bushies aren't using these reports as a justification for any policy. It was more like stupid, credulous reporting.

Who do you suppose has more influence, Pat Robertson or Cynthia McKinney, who has talked about LEAVING the Democrats for the Greens. Such right-wingers as Eric Alterman despise her. Same with Al Sharpton. How many white supporters do you think greasy Al has?

Remember what Mark Twain (I believe) said about the two-party system: There are two parties because you couldn't fit all of the crooks into one.

Again, Hilliard and McKinney were thrown out of office by DEMOCRATS. When Trent Lott's racism and disloyalty (he's a Confederate) lead him to be voted out of office by Republicans, then you can act holier than thou.

Atomic Conspiracy: Ask the Whigs. Another competitor will arise, after trying times when the GOP rules the political stage. While I agree with a lot of their agenda as expressed now, I don't agree with all of it and want them to have healthy competition. And who knows what they could mutate into while they had a virtual monopoly.

What I want is a choice between Coke and Pepsi, McDonalds and Burger King; two quality choices where I can express my preference. I don't want Coke and a glass of expired milk to be my only options.

I submit that I'm for a strong Democratic party that's healthy for the nation. By taking out the trash now, a small setback will keep them viable and ready for growth. Not addressing the problem seems more likely to lead to the scenario you fear, where the ship capsizes and we have virtual one-party rule until a new party cobbles together out of the ashes (twenty years?). Don't mistake tough-love for a lack of love ;)

The parties of Lincoln and Jefferson are getting a spirited workout here this evening, while far away young men and women, members of each of these parties, are serving all of us equally well. I thank them all equally well and may god or fate, as you choose, bring them all home well when this is over. I would only wish it that Clark and Conyers would take the time to see it the same way.

#87

I agree.

Part of my outrage has been that there is no way I want to be associated with McKinney and other idiots in the Democratic party. They are disgraces to their party and their country. I just want to drive home to people that patriotic liberals despise the authoritarian left and disloyal schills like McKinney as well, but will come out swinging if you try to paint us with the same brush. I would hope the Republicans here would come out swinging if some self-righteous liberal labelled them a party of racists.

It's hard remaining a Democrat but not as hard ( for me) as swallowing the social agenda of the Right.
In 1976 I ( painfully ) recall voting for Carter. By 1980 I could no more vote for Carter as I could cut out my own liver. But I could not vote for Reagan either. I opted for Anderson. I've voted for Democrats since though in 1984 I would have voted for Reagan if I actually believed the election was close.

The Democrats tolerate a level of antisemitism. There is no doubt about that. For the Democrats, it is not a question of will they tolerate antisemitism, but how much will they tolerate? But the Republican do too.

While Bush has spoken out against anti-Muslim feeling in the US, he has not spoken out on antisemitism, ( for which both the Right and Left are guilty of spreading ).

I'm waiting for President Bush to address the rise of antisemitism in this country and in Europe.

#88, There are racists enough to go around in both parties, they make themselves obvious when they have no accomplishment other than genetics to brag about or compensate for. Defending them is about as silly as trying to empty the ocean with your hands. Racism is a for profit enterprise in this country for all of the races. It is dependent on the sheep of all races for it's income. Don't be a sheep. Sheep are kept in line by sheep dogs who say that they are protecting them. Dont be a sheep. There are sheep dogs in both parties. Dont vote for sheepdogs. Now the real problem is to figure out the shepards.

#88

The acid test will be in how many of the other Dem Presidential candidates plant big smootches on Rev Al's fat butt...because....because...well, he's black....and we can't denounce a "black leader" no matter how odious they are....or we abandon a core tenant of the Party.

#22 Redmoonproject

Liked your Sun Tzu quote, which unfortunately is accurate in describing the fallen state of the Democratic Party. So much it bears repeating for Deacon and the loyal standard bearers to read when he is not wincing at the latest thing a "Democrat Leader" says.

When senior officers are angry and insubordinate, and on encountering the enemy rush into battle with no understanding of the feasability of engaging and without awaiting orders from the commander, the army is in a state of collapse.

That said, the far Right religious fanatics of the Republican Party who formed the Clinton Blowjob Impeachment Squad when they weren't using flip charts to show how Vince Foster was murdered were the greatest embarrassment of the last 20 years. I am hoping the Dems in 2004 will take the dunce caps away from them.

#91 The Reverend Al is the Dems worst nightmare especially in states with open primaries. Why if I lived in California even I might vote for him. Compared to Jesse Jackson he is a saint with minimal baggage. Besides being musically inclined he is close to the true roots of rock and roll. Al has it all, even a sense of humor, in a sly faulknerien way. If you fall for it.

How sad-

I mean it, truly sad. THe Democrats are the party of Socialism, now racism, they prme the pumps of racism constantly - a sort of devide and conquer strategy. Class warfare is also their stock and trade.

They have repeatedly sold this country out - 6 million in campeign contributions from the chinese? that would have gotten you hung for treason 50 years ago.

Now they give - almost to man/sheman, aid and comfort to the enemy ala Jane Fonda. Over and over again the sell this country out.

I say it's easier and shorter to list the Democrats who Are americans rather then filling page after page into books upon books on those who are not.

Remember, it was the Dems who started the Civil War in 1860 over another Republican they refused to call "Mr. President"- of course a million dead later, they submitted, then promptly turned around and started trying to tear it all apart again.

The dems have spent 150 years trying to destroy this country in way or another.

I'm tired, been fighting germans for the last two days:

see here: germanystinks.com

1. I agree with Model4 that in order for the Republican party to remain healthy, the Democrats have to be competitive. The current crop of Democrat leaders are selling their people down the river; no wonder I'm now a card-carrying Republican.
2. Liberals take note: Ramsey Clark went over to the dark side years ago. I would never associate myself with an extremist kook who has yet to meet a bloodthirsty dictator he didn't like.
3. Boyle must be living in a fantasy world, supporting Hawaiian independence. I was born there and lived in the islands 27 years - there is no question in my mind that Hawaii would be a much poorer, weaker place if it were cut loose from the United States.

Deacon, you are psycotic.

When Trent Lott's racism and disloyalty (he's a Confederate) lead him to be voted out of office by Republicans, then you can act holier than thou.

First, when BYRD gets voted out of office, then you can call Lott a racist. Not one second before. Second, perhaps its escaped your notice, but Lott hasn't stood for election since his remarks. In effect, you are demanding that republicans travel in time. Third, you might want to note that he's not the only "Confederate" in public office by your dishonestly broad definition: His major accomplishment, restoring Jefferson Davis's citizenship, passed both houses with a just-short-of-unaminous vote and was signed into law by your hero, Jimmy Carter.

Oops. Guess we'll have just to expand the list of "card-carrying confederates", Deacon McCarthy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can you impeach someone if there's no sex involved?

#97,no name, Sure but it makes it a lot harder to get press. You would also have to go real slow so people would understand the difference between S-E-X and the actual charges.

#61. Sorry for the offense. Didn't mean to insult all of UofI, but to point out that Boyle at UofI Law School can't compare to Glennon at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts, which is one of, if not the, leading graduate school of international affairs.

#96

That's the best you can offer? Trent Lott has a long lifetime record of racism. Byrd's an idiot and I disown him. Guess what? Lott's still a racist. There's nothing "psycotic" [sic] about that assertion. He views the party of Lincoln as the party of Jefferson Davis. Jefferson Davis was a traitor who should have been hanged, and ol' Trent is celebrating him, as well as supporting the present-day incarnation of the White Citizens' Councils. Also, given the fact that Trent Lott has an abysmal voting record on civil rights, and that Byrd doesn't, your lame attempt fails even more miserably.

People have known Trent Lott's a racist for as long as he's been in office. He was a racist sonofabitch when he got his start in politics, and a racist sonofabitch he remains. The Strom Thurmond remarks only eliminated the national plausibility of denial. And there is ZERO chance that he will be voted out of office in Mississippi--it's not like they hold racism against you there.

And calling me a McCarthyist for calling a racist a racist? Your weakness offends me.

#93

Of course, 1860 Southern Democrats are 2003 Southern Republicans.

Deacon,

I think Ryan's main point was that while McKinney was voted out of office, Lott has not been up for reelection since he made his statements. And he was indeed, in a sense, voted out by Republicans as he is no longer the Majority Leader.

If my memory serves me, Robert Byrd was actually in line for the presidency - I don't remember what it's called, but he held a position that is given to a member in the majority party that has been there the longest (president pro tempore,I think) which is after the Speaker of the House in the presdential succession. Point to me one Republican that could come on national frikin television, say the word ni***r and not be crucified daily until he stepped down. If you can allow yourself to claim to disown Byrd, why are you holding Lott up against all of the Republicans?

Also, not to sound pedantic, but McKinney wasn't voted out by the 'Democrats,' she was voted out by her constituency (which may be mostly Democratic, but I'm pretty sure I read that a good many Republicans voted for her opponent).

And while we're on the topic of Lott: I thought what he said was silly, and I'm glad he was removed as leader, not because of any racist implications of what he said, but because a politician should know that what he says will be examined under an electron microscope - by saying what he did and then acting surprised at the outrage it caused (whether or not it was deserved), signalled to me that he wasn't a very astute politician.

The problem with the Democrats, as I see it, is that they seem to be drifting more to the left and seem to be pandering to the more radical of their base. They also don't seem to be capable of any introspection whatsoever, never criticizing themselves and blaming any and all failures on conspiracies and talk radio, instead of their unpopular (or non-existant) policy positions.

W.

Is there a better way to send in stories to this site than the sidebar box? I tried to tip you guys on this nearly two weeks ago, but was apparently ignored.

#101

I don't think it's fair to hang Lott around every Republican's neck. I was pointing out that it's just as unfair to hang that idiot McKinney around our necks, especially considering that she was opposed and defeated by another black, liberal woman. She was drummed out of Congress by her largely Democratic consitutuents, with very little, if any, support from the Democratic caucus. Short of ex-communication, I'd say the Democrats repudiated the moron.

I should also add that labeling a seditious old fool like Clark and a freak like Boyle as "liberals" is highly insulting to liberals--liberals believe in liberty (hence the name) and do not accept Stalinists.

Deacon,

Carter is naive and irritatingly condescending, but an anti-American.

I'm assuming that you meant to say not anti-American, in which case I have to question your sanity. President Carter is decidely anti-American in his actions if not in his intent. French President Jacque Chirac emphatically claims to be pro-American. He waxes nostalgic constantly about his summers spent in the United States. This "nostalgia for days gone by" doesn't change the fact that the actions and policies of his government seek to undermine America's position in the world and harm our interests. Jimmy Carter by his repeated denunciations of American foreign policy regarding NK and Iraq is not at all helpful to this administration. His coddling of dictators, many of whom actively oppose the US, serves their purposes quite well. It could quite reasonably make individuals like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong-il, thinking that Carter's statements represent the will of the American people, more intransigent and belicose, complicating an already dangerous situation. I'm not saying he should be charged with treason or anything ridiculous like that. I am saying that the man should recognize that he isn't simply an "ordinary citizen" and should shut up.

#63 Ariel

The Republicans did not go after Clinton because he was fooling around with an intern. They went after him because he lied, under oath, in a legal proceeding.

That's simply not true. The investigations into Clinton began long before Lewinsky even worked for him. What was the original "scandal" that never bore fruit? Something -gate, IIRC.

The subject under discussion was the impeachment of President Clinton. Does Charles have so much bandwidth that I need to specifically clarify what I am discussing, even though I directly refer to particular statement on a particular subject?

Clinton was not impeached because he fooled around with an intern. He was impeached because he lied, under oath, about fooling around with an intern. The issue of the impeachment was perjury -- not adultery.

Why were the "Republicans" unable to find anything of substance regarding White Water, Rose Law Firm, Filegate, etc.? Perhaps it is because the Clinton White House and its supporters would not talk or co-operate. (Remember, it was Republicans who convinced Nixon to resign.) As for others who may have talked, there was evidence of bribing witnesses, intimidating witnesses, making witnesses unavailable. Why wasn't Clinton impeached for those things? The Democrats in the Senate would not even convict him when it was cleary proven that Clinton had committed a felony.

Can you imagine what the Clinton supporters would have said if Bill Gates was fooling around with an intern? They would not have been able to hang him fast enough.

In the military, a relationeship between people of different ranks is considered to be inherently coercive. A member of the military can be court-marshalled for adultery.

This all goes to the problems that threaten to destroy the Democratic Party -- the rules are for everyone else, not for them. Because they are special. They are elite. They are too important to have to deal with the codes of conduct that apply to everyone else.

Al Capone ordered the murder of many people. He was imprisoned for the relatively mild charge of income tax evasion. Was it a complete victory? No, but it removed him from a position where he could do great damage.

I haven't read the comments above and don't know if I'm off message, but I do want to point this out: Ramsey Clark, no matter his politics, is widely -- maybe universally -- regarded as the most fatuous jackass ever to be attorney general. (Yeah, there was Harding's guy, but Clark was worse, by consensus.) The building at Main Justice is filled with portraits of former AGs. Clark's is next to a latrine. I've seen it.

Whats wrong with witch hunts? If you go on a witch hunt and come up with a lot of witches, did you do something wrong?
The Latin word for "witch" is "maleficium" (sp?), evil doer. Evil doers SHOULD be hunted down and burned!!!