Charles, you meant murderous dictators, right? Better fix it before Taranto catches you! { ;^)

I am in the same boat with Condoleezza Rice, I cannot understand any of this, but then what do I know, being a white Gentile woman who votes conservative???

#1 - Well, in fairness to the French they did murder Robispierre (of course, that was more than 200 years ago)

I think she does understand, seems she has learned to speak in the same facon comme les hypocrites while bluntly making her point ;-)

it's not hard to understand ... Chirac is pursuing a foreign policy that would put the E.U. on the same level as the U.S., economically and militarily. The french, from what I understand, had a lot invested in Iraq. If the U.S. takes over and exerts influence in the region, Europe will lose it. The State Dept. was blindsided by the french and germans before the war b/c they had no idea about these aspirations, or they didn't think this policy was so pervasive for Chirac's govt.

I call this fascination with dictators (not EXCLUSIVELY French, by the way, but they're up there) "Nostalgie du fascisme" over on my blog (www.rogerlsimon.com). That's a play on the old "Nostalgie de la boue" (nostalgia for the gutter that the bohemians of the 1920s used to write about). It's a form of nostalgia that's dangerously, well, fascistic.

Maybe she doesn't understand because she was raised right. Maybe she doesn't understand because she didn't grow up in a colonialist hegemony like France. I have a dream! And that dream is that Condi will come back to Ca, sweep that worm Davis out of office and be our governor. What a gal!

Condi RIce is the bestest...

She has more cahones and brains that all of the State Department put together...

Condi for President...

imagine Condi running against that NY democrat..(feh)

Roger--"Nostalgie du fascisme"

I kinda like that. It seems like it's just a way to criticize the U.S., it just so happens that to side against the U.S. you usually have to defend dictators, kinda weird, huh?

What's to understand? France has rolled over for more people than a cheep tijuana hooker.

This woman should be president.

have a dream! And that dream is that Condi will come back to Ca, sweep that worm Davis out of office and be our governor.

Now there's a fine idea.

5 Carolina Jack:

I agree with you. France is still selling weapons to the combatants of the Middle East and Saddam and Arafat were acting as its brokers. Through the sale of these arms and also due to its place in history, Chirac presumed that in the EU France would be given a place of honour or preferential treatment due to her age and historical significance. Then as the EU gains gravitas in time, it would come to be the major European rival to the US in North America and France, as the oldest democracy in the EU, Chirac as head of France would become the eminence gris of European politics, rivaling in power the President of the United States (he hoped).

All that has gone into the crapper and he managed to alienate the junior members of the EU at the same time with his hubris and his big mouth.

On top of that the silent boycott being waged by North Americans (yes Canadians are boycotting Fwance too) has left the French economy (and German) in uncertain condition at best. Combine that with upstart EU newcomers and their resentment of Chirac's comments about their support for the US and its war on Iraq and Tony Blair and the UK's snubs of late, France has suddenly become the wallflower at the dance which no one wants to be seen standing beside.

To add insult to injury, now all the US clumping about the Middle East has also cramped France's style when it comes to selling materiel. Usually war is good for business but not for France's business because France has been on the wrong side of every issue in the conflicts in the Middle East.

Elizabeth

The one thing I can't figure out is ... why? It's not like France was hurting on the world stage or economically. Why try to take on an ALLY, diplomatically that is, to boost your nation. That's what I can't figure out. Maybe he's just simply incompetent, but I've heard he holds some strong resentment toward the U.S., and did before all this started, as well.

( OK, I'm leaving now...barbeque and all...)
just let me say, as a white guy, politically and ideologically right leaning...Condi for Prez 2008 !!

besides,
this is what I think of France.

have a good night LGF/LFG'ers !
Peace. Out.

I have it on good authority that Condi would kind of like to see Arafat and DeBallpointpen have sex again. "That le2 CV was a rockin", said Rice.

Condi is saying is that the Administration understands all too well what the French were doing but couldn't believe they would go ahead with it.

Why doesn't someone in the Administration say precisely what's what so that the Frogs, Krauts, and Russkies could get a wake-up call. Otherwise, they'll keep following their current policies--which will lead to much, much more than misunderstanding.

Condi rules!
I'm serious. If I had any member of this administration Id vote for without getting cramps, it would be her.

I was listening to some of my old LP's today. I came across one by Gentle Giant, which is probably the best Scottish-Jewish Jazz-rock ensemble, or if not the best, at least in the top ten.

There is one song called "Free Hand", which is about the dissolution of an unhealthy relationship, but to me it could also symbolize the Jewish people addressing Europe on the eve of the creation of Israel.

Who would believe it now that my hands are free
I never thought it would ever come to me
Now that my life's my own, I leave you behind
What ever made you think that I'd change my mind

It wasn't hard to run, break away from you
After all you'd done, what was I to do
Who's gonna take my place in the games you play
Nobody's listening now to the things you say

Now my hands are free from the ties, from the ties
Now I look forward to the future, where it lies
And with you, feeling low, looking black
Here, now my head is clear, why should I look back.

G-8 Protesters So Diverse They Fight Among Themselves

I love this! I'm sorry it's OT.

carolina jack (#5),

... they didn't think this policy was so pervasive for Chirac's govt.

It's not just the French government.

French polls show just 6 percent admire the US; 82 percent think the world is a more dangerous place than before the Iraq war, while 87 percent think that the US is trigger-happy.

Chirac is doing exactly what the French people want, standing up to those trigger happy Americans.

#14 Carolina Jack:

I think Chirac never got from Bush the kind of deference he thought he deserved; then he tried to pull out all the stops over Iraq and Bush just blew him off and went his own way. On a number of levels that has pissed Chirac off.

The French always have this notion they are more intelligent, sophisticated and worldly that the upstart North Americans so we should know our place and be happy to follow their lead. To not only ignore their advice but to carry on and do our own thing and be successful at it is more than they can bear.

Additionally, I suspect Chirac saw himself as head of Europe and before the Iraq war drew lines in everyone's sandbox, he might well have ended up that way. But Tony Blair challenged him, egged on in his mind by Bush, and the effrontery and loss of face has been too much for Chirac. He has turned bitter.

He is angry at both younger men. They are not only younger (a point of vanity with the French) but more successful and France is no longer a preeminent country. France has been maginalized by history and by Chirac's decisions and he can't stand it. So he has a lot of resentment.

Condi doesn't understand because she doesn't understand the deep hate that the deeper envy of the USA generates in Europe.

Think they are grateful we saved their butts in WW II?
Think they appreciate the Marshall Plan?
Think they are grateful for the missles Reagan put in Europe to keep them from having to learn to speak Russian?

They hate us all the more for it.

It's a tribute to her she doesn't understand.

Condoleezza Rice is right, this is very difficult to understand. And the next time France or Germany wants something from us, we must make sure to hold very detailed and lengthy talks to make sure that there are no misunderstandings. We wouldn't want any misunderstandings. It could take years. Decades even.

#22 Elizabeth...

Jaques Chiraq was born in Paris on November 29, 1932.

His father was a bank clerk and later an executive for an aircraft company.

He graduated from the well-known Lycee Carnot and the prestigious Lycee Louis-le-Grand with honors in 1950. He attended the Institut d'Etudes Politiques -- a university that prepares people for public service and politics. In 1953, he attended Harvard University. Commissioned as an officer in the French army, Chirac was wounded in France's colonial war with Algeria. In 1959, he graduated from the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, an elite school for government service.

and Dominique Galouzeau AKA de Villepin, has assumed a title his grandfather apparently bought.

I guess these two snobs...(sine nobilitae) dont like the feeling they have around the grandson of a Senator and the son of a President...

#21 Geepers

French polls show just 6 percent admire the US; 82 percent think the world is a more dangerous place than before the Iraq war, while 87 percent think that the US is trigger-happy.

I've been often curious as to how the Frawnch would feel if their intelligence service had not thwarted al-Qaeda's attempt to fly an Airbus into the Eiffel Tower. I doubt seriously they'd want to debate it at the UN for years.

But about about the visit to arafat by the Spanish FM,
the head of the EU and the hand holding creep from
New Zeeland?
NU?

#8 ploome

imagine Condi running against that NY democrat..(feh)

I'd vote for Condi any time, running against Billary, I'd stump for her!

ploome (#25),

Surely this fifth French republic - “Going Strong Since 1958” - will soon garner the old world acclaim that they so richly deserve, and then a golden age of Pax François will ensue.

Elizabeth #9 - Not entirely a wallflower. NZ PM Helen Clark took a few spins around the floor and got so giddy she sent her FM to hold hands with Arafat. Looks like the Kiwis have forgiven France for the "Rainbow Warrior" incident and nuclear testing, even if the ban on U.S. ships holds. They both hate the U.S. more than Saddam or Arab terrorism.

For Helen it seems to be carrying the banner of 60s radicalism, "Down with Amerika." In Chirac's case, I suspect either a girl ditched or a guy decked him during his U.S. student days.

"I do not understand the continuing interest in Arafat".

Condi Rice, speaking diplomatically, is being overly kind and generous in her statement about the stab-in-the-back government of Jacques Chirac.

Chirac's main vision is to lessen American influence, and to increase French influence. We all know it; but it isn't PC for someone at the top to say it. Chirac sees flagrant support for the lying godfather-of-the-terrorists as a way to poke his finger in America's eye, as if to say: France is very powerful.

To rationalize its search for glory, France has this self-serving "triangulation" theory about how the world should be. They babble about how the world should have not one pole, but multi-poles. And someone needs to lead the campaign to oppose the US and establish a second pole -- and who else but France should fill that role?

So at the political level, they are engaged in a zero-sum game with the US -- except when they feel isolated and feel forced to retreat a bit.

Sticking a finger in Uncle Sam's eye by flaunting ties to Arafat helps France's image as the leader of an anti-US crowd.

Also, I suspect that with the expected role of Arafat, if the Pali state that emerges is a terrorist state and an irredentist one, the unstable situation that prevails will be better both for France's arms industry, and for its efforts to unseat the US from its position of influence. It's the idea of fishing in troubled waters. It would be in a better situation to rally the Arab states in pressing war against Israel, or in serving an ultimatum, or any other kind of pressure against Israel, and thereby make lots of new friends in the Arab world at the expense of the US. But if there were a peaceful situation in the Middle East, without Arafat, then France would have to compete in a normal way with the US, and that would be more difficult.

If there is any justice in the world, she'll be our first female president--not that airhead from Arkans--er, I mean, New York.

Where was Condi when I was single?

EE (#31),

... then France would have to compete in a normal way with the US, and that would be more difficult.

I agree. The French would rather cheat to get what they "deserve" than be first among equals.

And don't forget that France valiantly counters American Hegemony by being the other langue officielle of the Olympic games.

#28 reaganite

Regarding "I'd vote for Condi any time, running against Billary, I'd stump for her!"

I hope that you're not trying to imply anything untoward.

#34 inadeepsleep

I hope that you're not trying to imply anything untoward.

Well, since you brought it up, is there anything more sexy then an educated, strong willed, and thoughtful woman?

#35 reaganite

You're right of course; she is damn sexy. Not that that would influence my vote! From what I can tell, she'd just make a great president.

#36 inadeepsleep

From what I can tell, she'd just make a great president.

My thoughts as well.

#37 reaganite

I think we all know where your thoughts are going.

#38 inadeepsleep

I think we all know where your thoughts are going.

Explain?

From what I can tell, she'd just make a great president.

This is why I think Cheney is being asked to do a second VP stint.
VP's have been so marginalized in the present that it is kind of a liability to your presidential aspirations.
Cheney won't run for President, and that will leave the playing field nice and level for the best person to win the job.

Condi looks tough as nails and is a straight talker.
And talk about your Democrat's dilemmas. You can't denounce her because of her race. Which would mean they would have to debate the issues. Ouch.

#39 reaganite, just giving you a hard time. Sorry, I'll quit now

#40 Geepers, I say "From what I can tell" because we really know nothing about her on social or economic issues. At least, I don't, maybe there is info out there. But while intelligence and logical thinking does tend to be correlated with conservative principles (he says with no hint of sarcasm), this isn't a guarantee. But I suspect she's pretty conservative overall.

#40 Geepers
Can you imagine the heart attacks the left would have if Condi won the Presidential election?

She might actually get more than the traditional 5-10% of the Black vote.

They [Bush and Blair] are not only younger [than Chirac] (a point of vanity with the French) but more successful and France is no longer a preeminent country.

They're also waaay better looking than Chirac, a man who strikes me as incredibly vain. (Elizabeth, are you a psychiatrist/psychologist? If not, you should be.)

Back to Dr. Rice: I wonder if she would be willing to run for an office. She's no politician (though that's in her favor in my book).

Actually, the incendiary racial climate that exists now, horrible though it is, would work in her favor. No Democrat opponent would dare attack her too viciously, fearing a backlash from black America. Something to ponder, for the Doc, at least.

#44 Juliette

One, I think you're right, she may not even be interested in politics. Go back to being a professor, much more up her alley. We'll see.

Two, I think you're wrong. Desperate to hold on to their lock on the black vote, they may very well attack her all the more visciously. Through black surrogates mainly, perhaps. Traditional media likes to talk about the "Gender Gap" and how fragile the republican's hold on their base and the swing votes is. But when you're getting 90+ percent of a bloc, then you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Cornered animals and democrats fight dirty.

inadeepsleep:

Then they (the Democrats) are bigger fools than I already thought they were. Most of the black people I know love this lady, Leroi Jones/Amiri Baraka notwithstanding. (I think Condi must have turned him down. Brutally.)

Go, girl!!

Condi for NY senator!

#45 inadeepsleep

Cornered animals and democrats fight dirty.

And this is new how?

#46 Juliette

Either way, it doesn't really matter. I think the democrats would try it, but ultimately wouldn't work, not completely. You know how politics works...make something up, leak it, deny you had anything to do with it, other papers pick it up, people read it but not the correction. It happens all the time. I'm sure there are millions of people out there who think Bush said the al-Qaeda isn't a problem anymore, or that that tank commander in Iraq said this wasn't what they wargamed against, or that Kissinger was against intervention, or...I could go on and on.

Who said it? Uncle Joe? The big lie, repeat it often enough.

But I think Rice has that stead as you go philosophy, maybe even partly picked it up from the Bushes, that would get her through.

#48 reaganite

Didn't say it was new, just that I think that if Rice runs for president, then she can expect a severe racialy charged Borking. When they tried it on Clarence Thomas he managed to shame them in a dramatic way. If it comes to that, we'll see how Rice handles it.

#50 inadeepsleep

we'll see how Rice handles it.

Unfortunately, Condi wont run, she's far too smart. I wish she would, she has my vote but I don't see it happening.

inadeepsleep and reaganite:

Yep and Yep

#51 reaganite

You're probably right, but I bet there'll be some serious smokey-room pressure on her to consider it. It's just too obviously a killer play politically.

#52 Juliette

And who said men and women couldn't get along?

#23 Paladin

Hmmm What is it that you think Condi DOESN'T understand?
JM

inadeepsleep (#41): We know she opposed racist hiring policies in her tenure as Stanford provost...

#53 inadeepsleep

. It's just too obviously a killer play politically.

Besides the fact that she'd be good for the nation?

BTW... You can add this white, right leaning, Republican male to the growing list of folks who will happily vote for her if she runs in 2008

I'd LOVE to see her face off against Hillary!

JM

#55 someone,

I didn't know that, but then I do know that she's a pretty good figure skater. Mmmm...figure skaters...

#56 reaganite,

Well, ya, there is that, heh. There's a similar point to be made with Bush. That is he really annoys me with some of his domestic policies (e.g. steel tarrifs, gaaa!) but he understands something very important. You have more influence when you're in power, even if you don't get everything you want, than if you're out of office. I wish he would stand on principle sometimes, but then I have to admit that he is far more effective, pragmatically, in an incremental way, than I could have hoped for. Not that I ever subscribed to the "Bush is stupid" mantra, but he's turning out to be far more of a masterful politician than I ever suspected. And I bet he picks up seats in both houses of congress next time. I hope, anyway, because the democrats have always understood incremental progress.

#58 inadeepsleep

but he's turning out to be far more of a masterful politician than I ever suspected.

Never play poker with Dubya, that's my advice. Condi is playing the hand she was dealt, don't bet against her full house.

Condi-lovers

She won't run for Prez cause she is unqualified and smart enough to know it. As is Hillary...who wants to be president but knows she has to prove herself in a stepping stone position. HRC is currently building her credentials, in elective office.

All our Presidents have been either Revolutionary War leaders, in Congress, generals, or governors - many passing through VP as well..the only exception to bypassing any of those stepping stones may be Herbert Hoover. (Who was still a formidable private executive, and the wunderkind of the astonishing post-WWI European Relief Effort).

The lack of proper credentials doesn't discourage the Gary Bauers, Al Sharptons, Ross Perots, Jesse Jacksons, Pat Robertsons, or Patrick Buchanans, or Naders...but when they run...they are all unelectable. Since all are without the credentials of executive military or elected office experience. We don't even like folks from Congress...unless they are groomed as VPs as well. In the past century, the only ones going straight to the White House from the Senate (none from the House) were Harding and JFK.

Rice is gov't and academia. She has never held an elective office in her life. I liken certain conservative's infatuation with her being Prez like similar liberals desiring Ralph Nader...she is their "shining light" and all.

She might be good, but she has to be tested in a lower elected office that requires her to work with, and be evaluated on her successes in leading all sorts of Americans in an executive capacity...not just playing policy wonk. Her shots are California Gov or Senator...Boxer or Gray Davis, but California is so liberal she would be up against high odds...and would face the same criticisms as Hillary did.

For now, the evidence suggests she has no interest, and also suggests she would be a loser if she ran in her state of residence.

What the hell is that stench?

Condi really should run for President. Can you imagine the incredible slap in the face to Democrats if the GOP put the first woman, and the first black person, in office at the same time?!

She'd win, too. In addition to getting the Republican vote, she'd grab a lot of the black and female vote that frequently goes to the Dems.

#59 reaganite

Her full house? I'll leave that one alone, heh. What worries me is the way domestic issues could play. For example school vouchers--do we want more national education bureacracy? But she understands all this, just like she understands exactly what she's doing with the French. "Oh, I just don't understand" is diplo-speak for ignoring what she doesn't want to say explicitly. That the French have behaved like the duplicitous bastards they are. But if she doesn't say it, she can pretend in the future that they may behave responsibly, and maintain diplomatic relations. Very pragmatic.

#44 Juliette

'No Democrat opponent would dare attack her too viciously, fearing a backlash from black America. '

No, they won't themselves. They will unleash some deranged black hacks, like Anita Hill.

#60 Ranbutan

Excellent observations.

She can still get there via CA governorship. Two CA governors before Davis were Republicans. She has real roots in CA, unlike Hillary in NY.

#64 osasha

Likely.

Part of France's problems come directly from being a socialist society. This means nobody can do better than anyone else, and if they do it's clearly evidence of foul play in their zero-sum world. As it's impossible to build anything up, they can only drag others down.

Which is interesting when thinking about a EU comprised of socialist countries. Meta-socialism? Whereas you had individuals trapped in this sick game before, you'll have nations of people locked in it. So when one member's agriculture starts bombing, the answer will be for them to continue the failed practices, and to punatively legislate against the other member states until the "equal outcomes" are achieved. This could be very, very bad. There's already a lot of hostility in Europeans, this will get them quite hot at each other.

Geepers:

And talk about your Democrat's dilemmas. You can't denounce her because of her race.

Juliette:

No Democrat opponent would dare attack her too viciously, fearing a backlash from black America.

You people don't know Dems. They are savage on a minority that wanders off the plantation. For the love of God, they were throwing Oreos at a black Republican candidate last year. Literally. At a public campaign appearance. No, the "Skeeza" "house negro" would get attacked mercilessly. The backlash will be minimal, these are the unspoken rules. But it probably would sway some fence sitter, especially white voters.

Forget Hillary ever running, or bet the farm against her. No matter how good her campaign, she'll turn out more Republicans than the GOP candidate. People will be postponing surgery to vote against her.

Model4:

People will be postponing surgery to vote against her.

As usual, you made me LOL!

This could be very, very bad. There's already a lot of hostility in Europeans, this will get them quite hot at each other.

Another big European war? Well, one is long overdue, I suppose.

Could be even a good thing, if it kills the EUSSR / 4th Reich right at it's birth and doesn't spread out of Europe.

Unfortunately when the Europeans feel like killing lots of people, like they seem to feel every once or twice a century, they never seem to be able to limit the killing to each other... jews, russians, brits and americans have always had to pay their share of blood for European idiocy.

#14 - Carolina. You are mistaken. France is most certainly hurting badly economically. That's what all the strikes have been about these past three weeks. The public sector is protesting its right to retire at age 50 on a full pension despite the fact that there isn't enough money to pay them. France has massive unemployment. It's a terribly expensive country to live in (as are other EU countries). All the fontionaires (public sector working number 1/3 of the workforce supported by the other two-thirds) and all the subsidised industries are draining France dry. The workforce is terminally lazy and short-sighted. Last month we had three public holidays plus one "bridge" day (as it fell on a Thursday, they're allowed to take the Friday off as well); the air traffic controllers brought the airline industry to a standstill twice within the last two weeks. The train drivers made life hell for people who have to travel by train. The teachers came out one day the week before last and one day last week. There have been two general, nationwide strikes. The farmers are scheduled for this coming week. This is not a healthy economy.

Elizabeth - You are wrong on your take on Tony Blair. He is already crawling back to Jacques Chirac on his hands and knees. No one, no one in the history of mankind, wants to be president of "Europe" more than Tony Blair. He has a ravening hunger for power and glory. The Iraq war was a chance to be photographed with President Bush and to be closely associated with a real, elected, and therefore legitimate, president. Tony being "presidential" was played out for the benefit of the European heads of state who will be the only ones allowed a vote for this mythical beast - the unelected president of a non-country. In other words, it's going to be a stitch-up behind closed doors, with only 25 people out of a total population in excess of 300 million, getting a vote. This is what passes for "democracy" in the European Union of Socialist Republics. Caton, whose views are more informed than my own, will correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think Chirac sees himself in line to be president of the EU.

hmmm ... I didn't know they were hurtin' that bad. Maybe that's the reason I was looking for. I've just never heard anywhere that France's economy was in the dumper. Econmic factors sometime drive foreign policy and if they can't get it together alone, revenue from the EU may pick it up.

carolina jack (#72),

Even though the current state of the French economy is less than rosey, the real imposing problem is the benefits structure, which like all pyramid schemes has to have a bigger base or it collapses.

The immigrants that are transferring to EUrope are not lured by the prospect of future gain, but rather for immediate benefits thus making the problem worse.

#72 - Carolina Jack - No. Good thought, but they're all in the same boat. Germany's teetering on the edge as well. The only EU country that's prospering is ... Britain. And yes, they want to get their hands on the British taxpayer's money to fund those vast public sector pension shortfalls.

does france and germany have debts?

I think Condi would have an easier time understanding the French, if she kept in mind that the French are un-be-liev-ab-ly PETTY.
French pettiness is the subject of many lively and hilarious conversations among all language teachers living in this place, not just ESL. What separates French pettines from others is that it's often the richest and best educated French who are the pettiest.
I am not exaggerating. If you want to know why, first start with the most childness reason, it's usually the one.
Cheers

I hear that rural frenchman differ alot from those residing in the cities in terms of friendliness and attitude. But the rural community stays away from all things political in most cases. I have heard conflicting stories of the pettiness of the french. My padres have frequented europe but have always held a disdain for france, they usually like to visit the Rhine, they say people are much friendlier outside France. They just get the feeling that the french people they encounter always look down on them.

This is probably an old observation, but it seems to me conservatives now tend to value a person by the quality of their thought rather than the color of their skin. I like Condi and hate Jesse J not because of their race, but because of the quality of their person.

...the Sun does understand: Worm fury at Blair ambush