You get what you give

Our weakness is ourselves

the enemy knows this very well so do we

It's dowright pathetic

Like we are waiting to be killed just like the Israelis

That's because when we are over there we respect their traditions and when they are over here we respect their traditions.

To do anthing else would mean the terrorists have won.

/LLL

Outrageous. I no longer comprehend the world.

I never did comprehend the world. Now I really don't comprehend it.

From the Dept. of Redundancy Department

terror-linked, Saudi-subsidized

we try so hard to show others we are nice

others use that to harm us

now you tell me who is being stupid

we are!

We are the idiots

we allow ourselves to be taken advantage of

they used our kindness, our openess, our ingenuity, our tools, our airlines, our visas, to kill us

they will use us to kill us

so who is now committing suicide I ask you

This maybe a new form of indirect western liberal suicide

Of course those directly responsible are responsible
but there is a thing known as reasonable measures as was taken during WWII with the internment of the Japs

Why were the Japs interned?

Because there was no way to know who was with the enemy

McCarthy era was also smart

There was no way to know how deep the commie influence was - and it was deep and communism was bad

We are just to shy to fight this war to the best of our abilities - that is gross negligence

If you don't do what you can do to save innocent lives your are culpable

Geez, all those Christmas CDs I sent to Afghanistan last year...

Maybe next time, daddy shouldn't be so specific.

Oh, yeah... we're totally living under an oppressive Christian Theocracy. John Ashcroft and the Religious Right are totally in charge.

R-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght

The left is going to get us all killed.

And they can build a mosque in ROME, we can't build a Church in XXXArabia.

And they can put bombs in buses, but no international court finds that this is a crime that must be prosecuted.

And they can become ELEVEN percent of France population, but if you say anything about that YOU are racist (they are not racist, they are just invaders, it's a new civil right).

"they will use us to kill us"

...death by political correctness.

#6 MGlazer

Stop saying "we us our" it is the LLL PC crowd that is doing this to US.

I wonder who was behind that USPS policy.

C o u l d i t b e . . . STATE DEPT!!!

If the intolerant islamic societies want to ban books and ideas, let them ban possession in their own countries. Why are we doing their dirty work for them when it is clearly inimical to our nation's values and constitutional foundation? Oh yeah, appeasement a/k/a national dhimmitude.

So what is the solution

Something on the lines of Ann Coulter's "bomb and convert"

Instead of the Oslo bending over backward Leftists strategy of painfull kindness maybe it is high time for some extreme Rightists strategums?

Like inundating the middle East with the ludists of the Western Culture

dropping masses of pornography etc...

Lots of psy-ops - those arabs are nuttier then Jiffy so we can just about say anything and they will beleive.

Covert stuff ad-nausem to their populaces

Bring lots pork wine and porn to the middle east thats what we should spend our money on over there

Also some good natured constant bombing is in our interests

lets not make the Israeli mistake of using our infantry there lets just bomb em from the skies 24/7

I want so much extreme right wing policies in the West to the point that even I say "hey guys let's take it easy"

But until that time:

Let's give em hell boys!

If I were President:

No boots on the ground of the ME just a lot of big bombs for some time

Make islam an illegal cult status

Inundate the ME with the worst of Western culture in regards to depravity

Commandeer all oil facilites we can for our purposes

national energy initiative for alternative energy

national initiative for local civilian defense forces

Hang / torture traitors and terrorists on pay per view with proceeds going to support victims of terror

JimInMPLS ,

We all have to face that these policies are now mainstream whether they originated from wackos is not the point

the point is that it is so ingrained and mainstream it is even at the US Military

It is us, we and our unless we, us and our do something about it to chnage it from our mainstream consciousness starting from our president all the way down

We need leaders who can fight the WOT without this nice-guy diploamtic strategy
We need guns a blazing crazy nuts who will put the fear of god in the arabs, all of them

We need them to fear us not like us

It is the Western culture as a whole that has been softened so yes it is us, we and our if you are of Western civilization

Isn't it nice how Christian reading materials are compared to pornography?
Solomon X

wonder who was behind that USPS policy.

OT but interesting view of dead ed said:

But even Shariati, although he goes further than Said, fails to contemplate the possibility of subjecting the Islamic experience itself to serious analysis and criticism.

It is not enough to say we are in this mess either because the "Imperialists" have dominated us or because our rulers and theologians have been corrupt and ignorant. This kind of blame game may make for exciting polemics. But it leaves the basic question un-attended: is there not some fundamental flaw in our culture that makes us vulnerable to "Imperialist aggression" and domination by corrupt rulers and ignorant theologians?

Blaming others for the mess we have been in for centuries may make us feel good, even heroic.
But at the same time it divests us of our humanity. It turns us into objects of history, mere pawns manipulated by powers beyond our comprehension.

In that sense, the reading of history by Shariati and Said could be described as metaphysical. Their work, therefore, should be read as literature rather than politics.
[Link: www.gulf-news.com...]

#4 Yair

I never did comprehend the world. Now I really don't comprehend it.

Only because it is incomprehensible.

11 ak

...death by political correctness.

I for one would much prefer death by chocolate.
Unfortunately we will die in a weasel sort of way, by pandering, appeasing and giving in and giving MORE like cowards hovering in the corner.

1 MG lazer

Like we are waiting to be killed just like the Israelis

Once again, Israeli's are not waiting to be killed.
You didn't read This from the thread we were on last night, did you?

I told you it is not as easy as it looks.
From JPost:'Hudna' brought slew of economic benefits
We all know the hunda was a complete farce yet the facts are according to JPost

Trade, retail sales and services income rose, and hi-tech exports rose 20%.

and
Number of firms in danger of collapse continues to rise

Some 47,500 companies may close by year's end. Food stores are worst hit.

Look. I wish the very worse things upon the f*cking
palestinians. But mass murder is not in the cards besides which, it is wrong. MG lazer, you write great things and most of what you write I enjoy reading. But when it comes to your idea that Israel is just sitting there giving in (for no reason) waiting to be slaughtered is complete bullshit. With that thinking it takes those here in the U.S right off the hook. I understand more then you think I do.

During Gulf War I, Bush-1 went to visit the US troops that were protecting Saudi Arabia.

It was Thanksgiving. The sheiks told the President of the United States that he was not allowed to say grace at a Thanksgiving dinner.

And what did the obliging wimp do? He went onto a US ship in international waters to say grace at a Thanksgiving dinner, rather than so pollute the holy Saudi [oil bearing] sands.

This was a clear enough signal to the sheiks what they can get away with.

If you bow your head to your sworn enemies they will cut it off

"death by chocolate" is definately the way to go Selpaw.

...also... for the most part I tend to agree with MG.

MG lazer. Check out #18

21 ak
I don't know what for the most part means so if you would care to expand on that I would appreciate it.

OK, diving in head first here...let the troll alerts sound if you will...

I think there is a slight disparity at play here with the disadvantage to Christians in Iraq, but I don't understand the comparison...Yee has been arrested for what he did ...no one arrested the Christian soldier or his father...

Clearly the notion that our troops need to be careful not to appear as missionaries or "crusaders" in a liberation is understandable.

Clearly the Geneva Convention demands we make Muslim chaplains available to the prisoners in Guantanemo.

It's a fallacy to suggest this represents some widespread conspiracy against Christians. This self-vicitimizing is thinly veiled hatred toward Muslims.

# 23...

Let's give em hell...!

No boots on the ground of the ME just a lot of big bombs for some time

Make islam an illegal cult status

Commandeer all oil facilites we can for our purposes

national energy initiative for alternative energy

national initiative for local civilian defense forces

Hang / torture traitors and terrorists on pay per view with proceeds going to support victims of terror

It may depend on which ME country the soldier is serving in. Afghanistan, Kuwait and Qatar tend to take the same dim view of other religions as Saudi Arabia.

Although I wouldn’t put it past the PC brigade to ban religious materials from being sent to Iraq. They probably don’t realize that the Assyrian minority in Iraq is Christian.

selpaw,

I am not sure if what you are saying is that:

1. there are other considerations to worry about besides fighting such as economic survival

2. America is somewhat responsible for the situation

If those are your main points I would answer them as follows:

1. Economic survival is important but not as much as bodily survival. In other words you can not enjoy your paycheck if you are dead so first make sure that won't happen

2. If America is responsible for either holding Israel back or forcing it to appease the PLO are those the things you mean?

If so that may be so but it only takes that argument so far. At some point Israel is responsible for the safety and welfare of its citizens and must do what it must do no matter what. No matter what anyone else says or what anyone else demands or even threatens - yes even America - Israel retains its sovereignty and army

It can legally annex Yesha (Gaza, Judea, Samaria) at anytime it chooses and deport all foreign aliens (Jordanians to Jordan, Egyptians to Egypt) if they wanted to end this today

To me it seems Israel needs a quick a ultimate resolution to this conflict if possible

what I would suggest is a move that is both quick and long-term something along the lines of the Elon Plan

And I do not mean mass murder of non-combatants unless that is mass murder of terrorists and no I do not think all arabs are terrorists but guess what that isn't my job to sort out who is who, that is theirs.

Even though most overwhlemingly support terror they can be de-programmed with the proper environment free of Islamists but that must come only after totall unconditional victory is declared via a decisive military victory over the extremely large and all-encompassing terror infrastructure that is part of their mainstream culture

If I am pointing a gun at two arabs it is their job to prove to me which one isn't a threat to me, that onus is not on me to figure it out

Pork, Porn and Booze

The Saudis can plain kiss my butt.

No Christian reading materials eh? Hmmm.. I'll go one further: I bet that if oil producing Islamic countries asked that all American armed forces personnel be given a copy of the Koran and compulsory lessons in how to convert to Islam, the U.S. government would ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree. This is not just any old left-wing political correctness, this is political correctness as dictated by Standard Oil.

Re: #24
I disagree with you, Edward. One father wanted to send his son some Christian literature that the son himself requested to help him cope with his situation. The prisoners in Gitmo probably also requested Muslim literature/paraphenalia to help them cope with their situation. The prisoners' request was fulfilled by our government, but the American soldier's request was turned down by our government. I don't think this is a conspiracy against Christianity,since the father probably couldn't send Jewish or Buddhist literature to the Middle East either, but it is clearly a double-standard. If religious materials are confined to the military base or even confined to the soldier's quarters, how is that offensive to the general Muslim population? One soldier with a couple of Christian comic books doesn't mean an army of crusaders has invaded the Middle East.

# 20 MG lazer:

If you bow your head to your sworn enemies they will cut it off

Truer words were never written. Maybe we can get these onto the front of a courthouse in lieu of the Judeo-Christian 10 Commandments??

#29 John P.

That is an interesting notion. Unfortunately, probably true. It's close to being true now, isn't it? Don't at least some of the troops have to go through diversity training? I wonder if some of Saudi demands for their oil at cheap prices is religious access to US markets, so to speak. That would explain alot.

Denying a Christian soldier's right to practice his faith? Why the ACLU will be all over this in a New York minute!

Not.

Big_Hands

#30

I agree there is a disparity there, but zooming out to see the larger context of each situation brings me back to the conclusion that these two are not comparable

The US soldier in Iraq is not in a tightly guarded controlled environment (although with all the spies in G-Bay, one questions just how tight the security there is), he is free to move about, interact, speak with Muslim and other Christians alike...he's working...he's on a very important, sensitive mission...AND, he will, God willing, be coming home.

Even to be able to tell the Iraqi's "look we are doing everything we can to respect your religion, even to the point of denying our own people their own religious literature" helps us win the peace.

...the Muslims in G-Bay, are prisoners...they are not interacting freely or moving about...many of them may end up being executed...it's a very different situation

Edward...stick around here...nothing is "thinly veiled"

Islam is a fascist death cult...

we have to understand that, and realize it a subversive violent movemet, intent on enslaving and destroying Western, non Muslims.

...any questions??

#27 MG Lazer

I've been advocating the pork, porn and booze strategy for some time now.

Are/Were Christian chaplains, or better yet, Jewish chaplains, allowed into Saudi Arabia to minister to the Jewish and Christian troops there?

What about the other "friendly" Arab states with US military presence?

ploome

only one question

do you feel reform of Islam will change that...and if so do you feel reform of Islam is worth working for?

Christians move around "freely" in Saudi Arabia.?

the prison is a little larger...

and Americans are in Saudi to protect Arabia with their lives

the Gitmo prisoners are war criminals..

and not covered by the Geneva Convention

Edward-

Sorry to say, I don't see us executing any of the al Qaeda or Taliban prisoners in Guantanamo anytime soon.

Further, if Dean or Weasley Clark are elected, they'll probably be returned to Afghanistan or Fraudi or France with our deepest apologies for the inconvenience of it all.

was this soldier in Iraq or Saudi Arabia?

I can't find that in the article

Edward,

You should do some research on non-muslims (specifically Christian) persecution in the arab-muslim world

It is vast, long-term, ongoing, brutal, relentless

there is slaverly of black africans, religious persecution of all forms ..

#38 Edward

I dont give a shit...Abdul

Islam is a joke

its for muslims to decide what they want to do

When Islam teaches, that any people who refuse to be acknowlege the superiority of sharia, Muhammed and Isam, is

attacking

Islam and Muslims, and then

Muslims are obligated to fight a defensive war.

thats a serious problem.

We are dealing with escapees from an insane asylum..

MG Lazer

Fully in agreement that Islam is a religion long-overdue for some serious reform...

not willing to let that lead me to hate all Muslims though...my brain's a bit more useful than just that.

Christian Soldier, Muslim Soldier-

Hey, I posted that in another thread this morning.

:-), well I did.

the prison is a little larger...

Islam is a joke

Ploome

that's supposed to be humorous I guess (at least I'll sleep better thinking it is)...

thanks for the comments, but I'd prefer to discuss this with someone who's not just throwing garbage out there...

MG lazer ## 1, 6 etc.

You are analyzing your way toward a concept for which I have been beating the drum for some time: suicidal political correctness. And you're right. Not about any one particular "policy" you're advocating, but in the general sense that we (the U.S., Israel, the West) are being WAY TOO FUCKING NICE and we need to be WAY MORE FUCKING SCARY AND RUTHLESS. Grow a pair of nads, Western Civ, or just spare 100 years or so of slow agonizing defeat and just start bowing to Mecca now.

Edward...

what specifically have I written, that you disagree with?

ploome

specifically "Islam is a joke"

no...Islam is a fascist death cult...

and the fact that so many people take it seriously, and keep trying to find common ground with Muslims, have no idea what the rules are.

There are only 3 relationships available to infidels, with muslims.

1. war

2. hudna

3. "peace" which in Islam means, subjugated under Islam and being "protected" by Islam, by paying the Jizya, and being subdued. (koran 9:29)

#34 Edward

Like a beacon of sanity in a vast desert of L-L-Lunacy,
Camp X-Ray in G't'mo is one thing we're doing of which I can say, "now that's about right" -- give them something to be scared of, and what makes it really nice is that the LLL scream and scream and scream and scream about Camp X-Ray but we're not dismantling it, so we must be doing something right. And we're not "killing" anybody there, Ed, at least not yet, we're just locking them up, for the duration of the "war" (God I love that part).

Islam isn't a joke. It is a religion that allows no dissent from the teachings of a child molester, who raided defenseless trading caravans, and who signed treaties fully intending to break them. It teaches that all other religions are inferior, and that a true follower must make war against non-believers. The founder of the religion was a murderer who encouraged his followers to make war and then keep the spoils of the war.

It is a joke only in that nearly a billion people think a sociopathic killer who had a thing for prepubescent girls, and who encouraged his followers to fanatasize about smooth and hairless young boys, was the prophet of God.

ploome

had you written "Islam has internal contradictions, especially as a religion, that make it highly incompatible with the tenets of Judaism and Christianity"

then we might have had a place to start a more rewarding conversation.

It's too long-standing a religion and too influential to be meaningfully dismissed as a "joke" though, and to call it a "death cult" based on a random sampling of quotes from the Koran is to ignore the way it has successfully evolved in other parts of the Muslim world, notably Central Asia, into something more compatible with Judaism and Christianity.

#49 Edward

learn a little...

#52 Ed

Well said...and, sadly, the truth about islam.

rebmiami,

The PC movement spawned from years of Western liberalization via the mainstreaming influence of Leftists

What are the Leftists goals? They are the same goals as the PC-police - to end the strength of the West

Their joy would be when there is equality between the nations.

To them this can only happend with the Western nations getting remarkebly weaker to the point that there is less of a difference between the USA and any given backwater 3rd world nation

So it is sucicide of the West as a whole by our acceptance and acquiesence of the PC culture

The one thing that each of us can do as a form of civil disobedience to all the PC policies strewn throught all of our lives is to make indivudal stands against them instyead of saying "why bother" and shuffling away as if you can just ignore it

Fight your companies PC policies - take a stand

Fight your local governments, schools, libraries

We all know these small insiduos things that have crept up upon us all

With the racial segregation i.e. multi-cultularism and so on...

No man is an island and one man can change a world

So the best way to change things (beside voting for Republicans) is to have personal courage in your convictions and take individual civil disobedience actions in your day-to-day activities in regards to Politically Correct things you encounter

Forming a group of like-minded people can also prove fruitful in influencing a particular locales political policies - we are still a democracy and the will of a majority does still has some power

#53 "It's too long-standing a religion and too influential to be meaningfully dismissed as a "joke" though, and to call it a "death cult" based on a random sampling of quotes from the Koran is to ignore the way it has successfully evolved in other parts of the Muslim world, notably Central Asia, into something more compatible with Judaism and Christianity. "

These are NOT random samplings of quotes from the Koran. It is HISTORICAL FACT on how the cult began. Name 1 PLACE it has "sucessfully" evolved.

ploome

that's why I'm here

I trust you have things to learn as well

or are you fully informed on all related topics now and simply sharing your wisdom with the masses?

Victoria,

Kyrgyzstan.

Edward,

You only mentioned the historical problems of Islam

In contrast the modern problems of Islam are much more severe for over 10 million dead in this Jihad Holocaust and counting

Tell the Children the Truth

And there are 1.5 billion muslims worldwide 350 million in the mideast alone

And it is no joke it is an awful and very real nightmare

# 53 Edward:

Just the fact that you call Islam

[a] long-standing religion and too influential to be meaningfully dismissed as a "joke"

tells me all I need to know about your beliefs, and the fact that you do not know what we in the civilized world face. Islam is a cult of death, different from Jim Jones and the People's Temple only in Islam's encouragement to blow oneself up with a few Jews and Americans to attain 72 raisins.

We are in a war between cultures, a clash for the survival of humanity and civilization. Other than that, Islam ain't so bad . . .

Clarifying my #51 where I say "Camp X-Ray in G't'mo is one thing we're doing of which I can say, "now that's about right"". On a second read that is misleading, so I will clarify.

Of course, GWB gets much much credit from me for taking down the Taliban and Saddam. And for sticking out the course of rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq despite the incessant deluge of criticism from al-NYT, al-NPR, al-AP, al-CNN, al-Democratic presidential candidatees, etc. But as he's doing it, it's like he's trying to pass an exam from a liberal professor, always apologizing and pointing to the (truly) good things we are doing.

But, what I meant is, the Islamist mind runs on hyperbole, and to shock and awe these fascists into defeat, there needs to be some sense that we are bringing the very wrath of God upon them like Genghis Khan did when he sacked Baghdad. (these characters have LONG memories).

We are decent people. We are fighting psychotic scum. Unfortunately, they are only impressed by people who can outdo them in cruelty. The Soviets understood this, as did Hafez Assad. The latter killed the whole families of suicide bombers, stopping it instantly.

Lesson for Israel in particular and the West in general. As victims of suicide terror, our own decency is producing casualties, because there is a proven method to making it stop.

I am very uneasy about the drift of this logic, but I keep dropping back to the fallacy of moral equivalence -- if you cruelly eradicate a threat that attacked you when you were minding your own business, it is the moral thing to do. We really have to viscerally realize we are at war, so that total war solutions with all the collateral damage they imply, do not strike us as immoral. Because the moral bottom line is: if you are out to kill me, you are fair game. Period.

MG Lazer

I agree that Islam needs reformation and needs it now...but I don't think killing all the Muslims of the world will make it a better place...

Edward,

Who here has said:

"killing all the Muslims of the world"

Now ending Islam in its current state is another thing

Are you a muslim?

Edward-

If you're talking about the former Soviet states, be aware that 1) The Soviet govt. did a pretty effective job keeping control and that the Muslims there had limited access to the Saudi nutjobs.

Of course, even without Saudi nutjobs, and despite Soviet control, you have
1) Azerbaijan, which waged war against its fellow Soviet state ( which commited the crime of being Christian) of Armenia, as soon as the central power in Moscow weakened). Armenia, btw, voluntarily joined the USSR for protection from genocidal Islamists in Turkey and Azerbaijan. ( Muslims killed 1.5 million Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman empire) [Link: www.haias.net...]
2) Chechnya, the garden spot of the Caucuses?
3) I hear parts of Georgia are getting kind of spooky to.

What was your point again?

#59 Edward

Well I see you've been able to name a country that the majority of the population has never even heard of. You're going to have to do better than that.

Rick Z

your powers of osmosis are impressive...I barely know anything about your beliefs.

I will comment that your so-called "clash for the survival of humanity and civilization" ignores where civilization supposedly began...

#53 Edward

any criticism of Islam, Muhammed, Sharia in an Islamic society is punishable by imprisonment or death

any teaching of other religions is punishable by imprisonment or death

actively and public practise of other religions in Islamic countries is forbidden and punishable by improsonment or death

brionging in Christian literature and Bibles into Islamic countries is forbidden

and you ask me to consider this fascist cult and 'religion', comparable to Christianity or Judiasm?

Muslims are locked into this cult

Victoria,

you asked for (demanded actually) 1 PLACE...until you respond to your own demand I don't have to do any better...

edward...

I will comment that your so-called "clash for the survival of humanity and civilization" ignores where civilization supposedly began...

it certainly did NOT begin in Arabia with Islam

Islam destroyed all the great civilizations it conquered

# 67 Edward:

Not osmosis, but deductive reasoning. That is something alien to the Muslim mind BTW.

As for civilization as we have come to understand it, where did it supposedly begin?

until finally, Islam has now become, what it started out

brutal, repressive, xenophobic and ignorant

Edward,

Central Asia is a whole different story, given its Soviet atheist past. Islam didn't "evolve" there naturally.

You can't deny that the leaning of most of the world's Muslims today is toward the ugliest and the most radical. Any reform of Islam must be a work of Muslims themselves, and I don't see Muslims working on such project. It would be nice if they can take care of their problems themselves, but can we take chance and allow radical Islam to proliferate, wihle waiting for a popular peaceful current to emerge? And a stunning military defeat is most likely to prompt reform.

OK

Kyrgyzstan, (yes Ed Moran) the former Soviet Republic (and very possibly because of the influde of the soviets) is a shining example of how Islam can evolve into a more secular, west-compatible religion.

Post-Cold War efforts by fundamentalists to infiltrate the country were overwhelmingly defeated, including one armed attempt by Al Quaida, and today the Kyrgyz stand as a very pro-Western state (with some corruption, but that too is secular in nature) and produces a very gentle, lovely people...

in otherwords hope for a resolution to this clash that doesn't require killing or converting millions of people.

worth a try?

IIRC, the points Michelle Malkin was making are that a Christian soldier in the US Armed Forces is denied the privilege to receive religiou materials through the mail because some Islamite might faint if he saw a dhimmi w/o the requisite obesiance to Mahomet, and (b) an Islamite soldier was given MORE than just the privilege of receiving religious materials. And that the Christian soldier is not accused of disloyalty, but the Islamite soldier is.

These seem to be the issues.

Edward-

Are you aware that in Pakistan that there are Christians awaiting execution for "blaspheming" the Prophet? Their crime was refusing to state that Mohammad was the Prophet of God.

I understand the Muslims of Indonesia, being far from the most vicious elements of Islam and its barbarian Arab roots, were actually peaceful people who lived tolerantly with their animist neighbors. Unfortunately, modern travel and communications have allowed the virulent strains of Wahhabi Islam to infect them, to the point that they now tolerate Islamic terrorists in their midst. Sunni Islam has fallen under the spell of the Wahhabists thanks to billions in oil money the Saudi's have used to spread it.
The Wahhabis hate the Shia, but the Mad Mullahs in Iran and the various crimes against Americans commited by the Shia Hezb-Allah means they got serious problems to.

I hear about the peaceful Sufi Muslim mystics, but I have no idea where they are, and they seem to have little influence over the Muslims anyhow.

in otherwords hope for a resolution to this clash that doesn't require killing or converting millions of people.

Try telling that to the Islamists.

go on then...kill them all

I'm Christian...what do I care?

once they're gone though, don't be surprised if we Christians turn our attention to some other religion in need of reform or conversion...

not naming names...just yet

Well, chalk one up for the slippery slope argument.

Oppose the Wahhabist Islamites and the next thing you know the John Ashcrost will be machine-gunning the vegans.

Ashcrost == Ashcroft

Preview may be my friend, but I'm lydexic

Edward,

Once again, who here has said we should kill all muslims in the world?

The only one seeming to mention that position is you

Are you a provacateur?

Edward...you may find this interesting

[Link: www.youngmuslims.ca...]

The Process of Islamization - Contents
Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris
© 1977 The Muslim Students' Association of the US and Canada
Fourth Printing - January 1983
[taken from [Link: www.islaam.com]...]

The Process of Islamization

Part 1 The Process of Islamization
Part 2 Determinist Theory of History
Part 3 Islamic Theory of Social Change
Part 4 - Bounties are God's Grace
Part 5 Application of the Theory
Part 6 Fundamental Importance of Islamic State
Part 7 - Two Extremes
Part 8 Similarities and Differences
Part 9 Larger Issues

this is a political movement...subversive and dangerous

Edward (#78)

go on then...kill them all

Nobody suggested anything of the sort. Are you having comprehension problems?

Edward,

My point was that there are many more countries and people that have been destroyed because of islam than there are that have "successfully evolved". Naming the (unknown) country of Kyrgyzstan doesn't support your case very well. Not when Saudi, Iraq, many African nations, etc...are on the other end of the scale.

Why do you not believe someone when they tell you you are to either convert or we will kill you? Do you think they're just kidding...or being funny? Until such time as many an influential islamic leader denounces the terror in the name of "allah", islam will remain - in my mind - a pathetic cult worthy of mockery and annihilation. (Please note...I said islam, not muslim people...although the suicide bombers and their supporters can go straight to hell).

Edward

1. Nobody in Kyrgistan "evoled" under Stalin.
2. I take an issue with your slippery slope argument. If the West will, in fact, convert Muslims to Christianity or spread atheism in Arabia, why do you think it will turn against peaceful minorities later?

steve

wink wink nudge nudge

not as far off as all that though...have you listened to the Ashcroft crowd...they're convinced Jews are going to burn in hell too...

my question really is where does it end?

I know, I know there's a world of difference between peace loving religions and death cults...but depending on which way you look you can't always tell which those are...Hinduism, for example, peace-loving?

Many, many Muslims are lovely peaceful people...they're simply in the middle of some cultural wars within their own...they don't deserve to die for it though.

Edward, Edward, Edward,

When was the last time Presbyterian nuns hijacked airliners and flew them into office buildings? When was the last time Buddhists blew themselves up inside packed buses on 5th Avenue? When was the last time Methodists prevented a Muslim from coming into their House of Worship? When was the last time the Roman Catholic Church killed because someone denied the Church or even left it?

Cheat sheet: Some answers are never, some are many, many years ago.

The above examples, when reversed, all apply to militant fundamentalist Islam in its current, everyday, incarnation.

If you want to live with that, fine. I most certainly do not.

Many, many Muslims are lovely peaceful people...they're simply in the middle of some cultural wars within their own...they don't deserve to die for it though.

Ofergodsake.

there was a resounding silence to my previous statement

in otherwords hope for a resolution to this clash that doesn't require killing or converting millions of people.

worth a try?

you'll forgive me for interpreting that as a "no"

nevermind...I just read veebee

If the West will, in fact, convert Muslims to Christianity or spread atheism in Arabia...

This is a very dishonest set up.

You know full well Muslims don't want to be converted...that leaves killing them, doesn't it?

Slightly OT, but do you all know that the Diary of Anne Frank is a "peerless piece of propaganda"?

"The Diary of Anne Frank is a piece of peerless propaganda that has been circulating since its first publication in 1947 and the efficiency with which it meets its objectives staggers the mind. The vindication of this fabricated fantasy is in its universal acceptance. Like all good lies, the bigger it is the more easily people will swallow it. No matter that overwhelming evidence has been presented to show that there was no Anne Frank, no diary, and no death at Belsen-Belsen [Dr Robert Faurisson]."

Khurshid Hadi
via email
Excerpt from today's Letters to the Editor
Dawn newspaper
Karachi, Pakistan

Yes, the Diary of Anne Frank was all propaganda... a complete fabrication. On top of that, why not add the Holocaust? That 6 million figure is highly exaggerated.

Saddam's atrocities? Zionist-CIA fabrication.

September 11? Zionist-CIA conspiracy.

Islamic extremism? Zionist-CIA-Hindutva conspiracy against the world's Muslims.

Israel? Brutal, apartheid, racist, Nazi, Gestappo regime.

You LLL's wouldn't understand the sarcasm of this post. You don't have a damn clue about the mindset of our enemies.

NOT A DAMN CLUE!

Qs:

How many Jews have flown jumbo-jets into skyscrapers recently?

How many Presbyterians have blown up busses full of grandmothers and schoochildren?

How many Lutherans have gone to holiday festivals and shot 7-month-old infants in their cribs?

How many times has Pope John-Paul called out to God for the death of all non-Catholics?

How many times has Franklin Graham called for the elimination of non-Christians in America?

How many times have the Quakers surrounded a private girls' school to prevent kids from escaping when the building was on fire?

As:
/crickets

Oh lordy

You're either a bleeder (bleeding heart) or a muslim
either way you seem really silly as in you do not embrace the cold hard reality for what it is and thus form more meaningfull conclusions

#89 "You know full well Muslims don't want to be converted...that leaves killing them, doesn't it?"

Oh come on, man...

# 91 Steve Miller:

You and I cross-posted. But the thought's the same.

This has been going on for quite a while

It's been OK to insult Christians and their faith for quite a number of years. When a comic, movie, TV show, or work of art pokes fun at, or degrades Christians, it's always a free speech or free expression issue. Which is fine, actually, because it *is* free speech. But why has it always been the Christian faith that has been the target in the US?

Recall the 'work of art' that was the crucifixion covered in urine? How about the elephant dung covered Mary?
These were OK because the object of ridicule were Christians. It would NOT have been OK had it been any other religion.

How many other religions have had their icons or holy figures depicted in the same way as the Christians have in the USA? I can't think of any.

This double standard in the military is just an extension
of what we see in non-military life. Christians are fair game and have been for quite some time. The message is out: it's OK to discriminate against Christians.

You know full well Muslims don't want to be converted...that leaves killing them, doesn't it?

Edward, you seem almost desperate to get someone to say that all Muslims should be killed. You keep rephrasing it but really, the only one suggesting it is you. What are you up to, dear? I think MGlazer pegged you right.

cold hard reality:

Muslims are not, by definition, killers.

any attempt to paint them all as such is the sort of sphincther-twitching intellectual bankruptcy that weakens the valid arguments for reform in Islam

Edward

in otherwords hope for a resolution to this clash that doesn't require killing or converting millions of people.

That was the policy throughout the 90s. Any luck? Ever wonder why Israel is insuch a horrible shape now? Or why Christians are fleeing PA territories?

What is “political correctness run amok”? Does that imply that there might be a kind that is more or less reasonable? The most important thing for Americans to achieve, if they still can, is the end of domestic “political correctness” and all that it entails: demonization of Western peoples and cultures, state sanctioned racial discrimination against whites, the sudden repopulation of the West by culturally incompatible and often hostile foreign peoples.

These trends and the demented ideology that lies behind them will destroy the actual, historical American nation in a very short time. Already American politics has contracted to the point where none of the urgent issues mentioned just now are ever seriously discussed. A supposedly “right-wing” President: (i) has massively extended state power over individuals and communities; (ii) wants billions of dollars to protect the borders of Iraq, while explicitly refusing to protect the borders of the U.S. itself; and (iii) endorses racial discrimination against whites (and Asians) as a “compelling interest” of the state. GWB is willing to drop bombs on Iraqis for the sake, he says, of protecting the U.S., but isn’t willing to stop or even drastically reduce immigration – or admit that Arabs and Muslims are more likely to be Islamic terrorists than Presbyterians or Eskimos.

In other words, for a “right-wing” President to consider real immigration reforms or so-called “racial profiling” is MORE politically dangerous than to propose killing thousands of people. This, surely, is proof that the country’s leaders and media have descended into sheer madness. Unless all this sub-Marxist garbage is utterly rejected there will be nothing to defend: America will be destroyed regardless of whether Islamic terrorism can be contained.

MG Lazer

its their way, or nothing...

no compromise with Muslims or Islam

and change is so anathema to Islam, most muslims understand the price will be paid in death.

so many Muslims say, "do you mean to kill them all"...because this is what they see as the only way

Muslims are not, by definition, killers.

Like talking to a wall...

Edward

Nobody here is saying that Muslims should be killed, what we seem to repeat over and over, is that the enterprise of Militant Islam should be defeated soundly. Want to bet that under such circumstances many will convert?

LGFers in legal practice: would the USPS regulation hold up in court if it were challenged? I wonder what would happen if a Jewish soldier asked his or her family to send some religious materials-- could it be used as a test case? And incidentally, what does the Postal Service mean by "non-authorized political materials"? Probably anything from the GOP.

please...

steve, veebee, Rick, zulubaby

each of you has made a sweeping generalization about Islam, but not one of you qualifyied any of your statements with numbers or percentages...what else am I to conclude but that you want to kill all Muslims...

play fair

#67 Edward

I will comment that your so-called "clash for the survival of humanity and civilization" ignores where civilization supposedly began...

Just because the written alphabet, agriculture, cities, and the division of labor geographically originated in the Middle East over 4,000 years ago has nothing to do with anything we are talking about here.

Islam started in the desert in the 600's A.D. and spread by military conquest, taking over the far more advanced heirs of those old civilizations you are referring to (Persia, etc.) with a ruthless fanaticism that allowed them to outfight their technologically superior foes. That original military campaign of conquest was the original jihad, and it is written into the "source code" of Islam. What we now call "Islamism" is, simply put, an extreme form of Islam that wants to go back to basics and resume the military conquest of the non-Islamic world. They have sized up the U.S. as the biggest non-Islamic nation, and have decided we are Persia; that is, that our military might and technology will succumb to their fanaticism, because as OBL said "we love death more than they love life" or some such.

The fact that there is a clash of civilizations at all owes to successful defensive campaigns by Christian European nations in France in the 700s and Vienna in the 1600s. The much maligned Crusades were part of that defensive war, a limited counteroffensive. Yes the crusaders were cruel, definitely not post enlightenment new age guys, and they did a lot of truly horrible things. However, but for the vigilance and swords of Christian Europe, there would have been no "West" to experience the Reformation and Enlightenment, and give birth to the modern world. That is the history in a nutshell of the "clash of civilizations."

And lastly, you commit the cardinal sin of moral equivalence when you say we advocate killing Muslims. We really don't. We want to eradicate Islamism because it wants to eradicate us. Unfortunately that is likely going require killing lots of Muslims, just as eradicating Nazism meant killing lots of Germans. (however, eliminating Soviet communism did not involve killing lots of Russians, so there is precedent the other way). We didn't hate Germans, and they're still there, our (dubious) allies. When Islamism is tossed in the dustbin one way or another, there will still be Muslims, and they will be welcome to share the world with us.

Until they once and for all, are decisively cured of their fantasy of world conquest and theocratic subjugation, just decide that part of the Koran is "historical context" or something (and they can look at the Christian Enlightenment for examples of how this is done), we are at war. A war they started and are stunningly frank about. It's the LLL/PC establishment in the West that stubbornly persists in denying this truth, not the jihadis themselves.

Ed,

Over 3,000 dead in NYC, 9/11/01, for starters.

MG#56

Sorry coming in late, but that was the smartest post I have seen at this site. Charles should put it on the front page!

edward...

no one said anything about killing anyone...

except you..

of course if people want to kill us, because we think sharia=shit...

than of course, these people need to be killed.

dont you agree?

Oh Edward, we had such hope for you.

NO ONE is calling for the death of all Muslims. I don't even think anyone cares if they convert or not.

The issue is that we will not go silently into the night; we will rage against the dying of the light - and we think that to oppose terrorism is NOT to oppose a particular religion.

My anecdotal evidence is that EVERY Muslim I've met is peaceful - UNTIL the subject of Israel comes up, and then they go idiotic. EVERY TIME. They ALWAYS excuse the terrorist bomber. EVERY TIME.

So maybe I just haven't met the "real" peaceful Muslims yet.

Let me repeat: I do not care what a person believes & I will not kill him for it. I will seek, however, to ELIMINATE him if he thinks he's going to kill ME or my family. And as far as I can tell, Wahhabism/Islamite terrorists are out to kill ME and my civilization, and they promise this over and over again.

And I (please pay attention) see NO EVIDENCE that the "moderate" or "peaceful" Muslims are in any strong way protesting this. AT BEST all I see are weaselly words like "you have to understand our rage at Israel's brutal occupation of Palestine..." and the like.

WHERE are these peaceful Muslims who can live in co-existence with the civilized world? WHERE?

I'm not discounting Kyrgystan - except that it is like saying Tonga is a typical Christian nation. Tonga may be very Christian - but its influence in the world is very small.

The most influential Islamite nations are the most threatening to civilization: Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and the like. The Islamites of those nations are seeking to overthrow and/or kill those who resist Islamization.

And, no, I'm NOT saying that therefore ALL Muslims need to be killed. I'm ONLY saying that TERRORISTS need to be eliminated. IF they happen to be Islamite, then that's the breaks. I have just as much rage against the McVeighs as I do against the Abduls. They want to see me and my family and my government and my culture dead; I will resist that with no apologies.

I think our Western culture is not only worth saving, I believe it is superior to non-Western savagery, and I include Saudi Arabia in the class of non-Western nations. I can lightly agree "Mecca delenda est," but I'm not advocating we just kill all Muslims: I'm not saying we just bomb Makkah. I do think, however, the West needs to stop playing nice with the Wahhabists, no matter what form the Wahhabist take. If they dress up in suits and walk upright, I still don't think we should consider them civilized. When they lay down their crude and constant threats to kill Jews and Israel, THEN I might think that Islam can reform. For now, there are no signs that Islam CAN reform beyond its 7th century savagery.

...what else am I to conclude but that you want to kill all Muslims...

Edward, you want to play fair? Do not put words in my mouth then.

In too much of a hurry to read the whole thread, if this has been mentioned by someone else...sorry.

Only the U.S. forces practice this, the Brits "over there" were allow alcohol etc... At least that is what my bosses (while I was in the Air Force) told me was the case while they were "over there".

#62 rebmiami i-- totally agree with your post except that it was my namesake hulugu son of tuluy son of genhiz khan who totally destroyed baghdad in 1258--and i mean destroyed--pyamids of bones topped by skulls--my suggested solution to the greater problem according to hama rules---edward suggests kgrystan [superman's birthplace?] as a shining example of moderate islam--sure some sufi influenced countries are restrained but thats like saying bermuda has influence in international affairs--eddie read "sword of islam" by serge treficant sp?-so you'll have an intellectual basis for your statements--i think you are a well intentioned dude but suicidally ignorant

Here, Edward, are some numbers:

Number of Muslims I want dead: 0%
Number of terrorists I want dead: 100%

Does that help?

BTW, I'm suspecting that Edward is either a bot or a troll...

I think one or two more posts should do it - and then he's a Cat 1 troll; however, his alluding to the fascism of John Ashcroft makes me think he may become a Cat 2 or Cat 3 troll.

Way back up in entry #24, Edward, you said something interesting that as yet I haven't seen anyone challenge. Yee was arrested for "what he did" but the Christian soldier or his father haven't been arrested. Therefore, since he hasn't been arrested, what the hell is the solder complaining about (or anyone on his behalf). Bad comparison. Yee wasn't just practicing his faith and got arrested - the military actually hired his seditious ass to do what he was supposed to be doing there (coddling to the detainees) - it is likely that what he did to get arrested was commit treason.

And by the way, please keep messing with Ploome, please. I want to see that. If you proceed with the assumption that she doesn't know of what she speaks, you've seriously miscalculated.

Even I know enough not to mess around with Ploome, and I'm the kind of guy brings a red bandana to a bullfight.

I can't figure what was my sweeping generalization... that Stalin was bad?

veebee (#117)

I can't figure what was my sweeping generalization...

Ask Edward, he'll make something up for you.

I think Edward is what is considered a 'moderate' muslim

his argument is with our response to Islam

to distract us from the true goals of Islam

can anyone tell me why of the (approx) 190 shooting conflicts actively going on on this planet right now 180 of them have radical islamist involved one one side as the agressor?

well edward? i would like to see you explain that one

Edward,

The whole point of this article is that, as far as religious freedom goes, the prisoners at gitmo are treated better than our own troops overseas. It's hyposcrisy pure and simple. You appear the think it's no big deal. The rest of your posts are trolling. Knock it off and stick to the topic.

I'd like to take this moment to thank those who stepped up to confront Ed without one insult. I love those kind of arguments, red bandanas and all.

Stalin wasn't that bad - in time, he might even have moderated his bloodthirstiness. And think of the peaceful nations of Rumania or Hungary, which showed how innocuous Communism could be.

#114 steve miller

Do you have definitions for Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3 trolls, etc.? An official LGF troll scale would be a useful addition to Yair's Seethe-O-Meter.

MtJoe, Steve Miller...

hehehehee

and Muwahhh to you both...:-)

I don't know, Rick.

I'm afraid that arguments sometimes bring up insults, even without intention.

If I were to discuss my viewpoints about Islam with a Muslim, and the Muslim is offended because I disparage Mahomet, whose fault is it?

And, of course, sometimes in the course of an argument, it is just fun to get a dig in, much in the way a loud discussion with friends includes banter and disparagement.

The hard thing with a typed discussion is all the meta-content is eliminated, so you can't see my arched eyebrow, or my eyeroll, or my pursed mouth. You only see the typed words, and they can come across as insulting when all that was implied was wry humor.

#124 -

I'm thinking that me, Ed Moran-of-the-shifting-names, and the blessed iowahawk could come up with something.

# 126 Steve M:

I concur. But nobody brought up the vile Pedophile Prophet and his misogynist minions. So much the better for us. But if he had kept on, I can't really imagine what would've happened except DUCK!!

that's a lot to try and answer...

Steve, you make some excellent points and represent why I'm really here...thanks for taking the time.

Trolls, bats, whatever...if every time some disagrees with you that makes them a potential troll, you're lost anyway.

OK...you're all lobbing accusations...DISCLAIMER time:

I'm in love with a Muslim, engaged in fact...there you go...and as much as I understand that all the terrorists on the planes were Muslim (I live a few short blocks from Ground Zero)...and as much as I understand that Islam has culturally got pockets that are violent, intolerant, and bent on converting the world, I come from a Pentacostal background...and there's no freakin' difference, I'm here to tell you...

Having been raised on the Irish conflict, I know well that terrorism in all forms is completely unjustifyable...no exceptions...

but bullshit like "death cults" (regardless of how many books you insist I should read to back up that sort of mindless hatred) offers me no meaningful answers...so I challenge it...

I need to bring my fiancee home to my fundamentalist family this Christmas...it ain't going to be pretty...and I'm spending time here trying to figure out how to address their fears and predjudices...

you'll forgive me if I ignore the knee-jerk hate-baiting rhetoric and provoke some real answers...

Edward...

get her to convert and Congratulations

OT This just in Bush killed Jesus:

Fernando Suarez, whose 20-year-old son, Jesus, was one of the first fatalities, said: "My son died because Bush lied."

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

#129 "and as much as I understand that Islam has culturally got pockets that are violent, intolerant, and bent on converting the world, I come from a Pentacostal background...and there's no freakin' difference, I'm here to tell you..."

First of all...congratulations!

When was the last time a Pentacostal Christian blew himself up and killed innocent children? When was the last time a Pentacostal preacher called for the destruction of all non-believers? Do they preach repentance and salvation? Of course they do...and often times with extreme passion. There is a huge difference, Edward...enough with the moral equivalence crap. It doesn't hold any water in this instance.

Confession time:

I'm in love with a Muslim too. ;-)

but bullshit like "death cults" (regardless of how many books you insist I should read to back up that sort of mindless hatred) offers me no meaningful answers...so I challenge it...

you just dont want to know...

read Muslims on ISlam

dont listen to me

[Link: www.youngmuslims.ca...]

[Link: islaam.com...]

We here, cannot tell you what you want to believe..

because you are in DENIAL..

Edward, I dont believe she can marry you and remain a muslim, but you already know this don't you.

No 37 asked whether Christian and Jewish soldiers with the US forces in Saudi Arabia were permitted to have chaplains

I do not know about the Christians, but there was no need for Jewish chaplains because the Saudis demanded and the US government agreed that NO JEWS would ever be included in the US forces.

In fact, no Jews at all were ever permitted to enter Saudi Arabia, though if I remember correctly Henry Kissinger was given a special exemption as Secretary of State.

Posted yesterday, still a work in progress, suggestions accepted. Freeware code, modify at will

#150-
Common misconception.
A Troll Watch means that a thread has conditions favorable for a troll to develop.

A Troll Warning means that a troll has already been sighted on the thread.

Trolls are rated all the way from Troll Depression to Troll Storm to Category 1 Trollcane to Category 5 Trollcane.

Ahem is a Cat 3 Troll, Ingertroll was the rare Cat 5 Troll.

The artist formerly known as VFI is only a Troll Depression, but be warned, she can dump enough Gaelic dankness, misery and love of the BBC to be dangerous in her own right.

I hope that cleared everything up.

eddie---islam doesn't need reform--the christian reformation was back to basics protestanism and calvinism strict purist interpretation of doctrine--the pisslamics have had their reformation--see ibn tammayyah through muhahammid abd al wahhab and what we have from that is murderous wahabbism/salafism and the takfir wa hijlra nutjobs--islam needs the enlightenment i.e voltaire,montaigne,locke,mill, descarte--to free them from their fear of bidah [innovation]and move from the dark ages to the age of reason and science where the rest of us live and thrive--all arab countries in total have the gdp of spain or rhode island--you think thats a product of a culture based on bedrock religious attitudes or the rape of colonialists--japan became the second lagest economy in 35 years after being decimated--amazing it did this with not one person saying "inshallah"

#133 SoCalJustice,

I always thought the Jordanian queen was ugly, look at all the makeup she has on, and try to picture her without it.

I had a Muslim girlfriend in high school. She was from Iran. I have in my life made many Muslim friends, well, until they find out that I'm jewish at least, then their attitudes change really fast.

135 gymnast

if he has not yet converted

he is thinking about it

thats why Christmas with the rentals will be so fun!

Conversion.

That's the issue.

When was the last time a Pentacostal preacher called for the destruction of all non-believers?

destruction, not per se, but conversion...every bleeding Sunday morning, night, and Wednesday...

Edward, I dont believe she can marry you and remain a muslim, but you already know this don't you.

I'm desperate to live in a world where people don't care...so yes, I'm naive...at least I'm naive for the right reasons...

You might be right Plume...there may be no answers here for me...thanks all the same.

Hopefully nobody posted this yet, but I have a friend who is at this very moment in Kyrgystan. He sent me this a few weeks ago:

Bishkek's Multi-vector Politics

It appears to him that there's much more a Russian influence there than an Islamic one. And if anybody could spot an Islamic influence, it'd be him. He's been on Uncle-sponsored field trips to just about every country in the ME.

Edward, all I can say is good luck with that. Rather you than me.

You're accusing us of advocating the murder of all Muslims but write:

OK...you're all lobbing accusations...

I think the accusation-lobbying is being done by you.

but bullshit like "death cults" (regardless of how many books you insist I should read to back up that sort of mindless hatred) offers me no meaningful answers...so I challenge it...

You haven't challenged anything, you've attempted to put words in my and some other posters mouths and seem to be in complete denial about the reality of Islam. Since you're in love with a Muslim I suggest you start doing some serious reality-checking (and reading). I'm sure she's a lovely person but that does not mean that Islam isn't a death cult. It is. I'm curious to know how your girlfriend's family feel about you?

Edward, if you convert, please take a good Muslim name. May I suggest Abdullah, whcih IIRC correctly means Servant of God.

I don't want people to confuse me with some bleeding heart moral relativist.

Thank you,

Ed

ah ha!

light at the end of my tunnel

HULUGU!

you've nailed it...Islam needs enlightenment...I actually knew that at one point, but keeping hearing "reform" from the neocon corners...so forgot it.

japan became the second lagest economy in 35 years after being decimated

but there's got to be a better way than decimating the Muslims, no?

In fair Verona
Where our tale is set
A story of two star crossed lovers...

Edward...

there you go again

who said anything about decimating Muslims???

its interesting that you see this as the only way.

either convert (as you seem to be thinking) or decimate them

find another girl, Eddie

BTW, if a Pentacostal or other Fundie Christian tries to convert me ( they don't consider Catholics to be real Christians) and I say no, they'll TELL me I'm going to Hell.

If I tell your Jihadi Joe I won't convert, they may try to SEND me to Hell.

Can you see a difference?

Edward (#141)

You might be right Plume...there may be no answers here for me...thanks all the same.

I think you know more than you're willing to admit to yourself and that's why you don't like the responses you're getting. Do you want reality or do you just want to hear something to make you feel better about your doubts?

(#141) Edward:

At the risk of getting too personal, what does your fiancee have to say about the issue? Is she religious? Is her family?

(#139) Jonny:

Ya think? She's the mother of three - looks like she's doing alright to me. I agree, she does wear a lot of make up sometimes though.

(#146) lol

Eddie

If I'm not mistaken, Islam requires male circumcision.

#145

from the neocon corners

*ding ding ding*

We have a winner.

Yep, there's no problem with Muslim extremists who have killed hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews in the past 10 years alone, it's that cabal of Jews and Jew-lovers in the White House: Perle, Wolfowitz, Rummy, Cheney, and Ashcroft, all eagerly pulling that dupe W's strings. (Sometimes I think that people who are convinced of stuff like this read Frank J's [www.imao.us] In My World entries as fact, not satire.) In fact, even suggesting that Islamists (not Muslims) are the source of the vast majority of today's terrorism is tantamount to saying you want all Muslims dead.

Ed Moran, I think Edward just became a Category 1...

Preaching conversion in the pulpit is "no freakin' different" then Muslims EVEN NOW converting Christians and animists at gunpoint and sentencing Christians to death for "blaspheming" the prophet (propeller beanie upon him).

Riiight
/Dr. Evil

#150 SoCalJustice,

Maybe its just a matter of taste. I've never liked too much make up on anybody. But
she looks ok in some of these photos. I couldn't find any photos of her in a swim suit.

I can't imagine that reducing a major religion to a "death cult" does anyone any good, zulubaby...despite the historical anecdotes that lead the coiner of that phrase to promote it.

I'm not in denial...I lived 9/11 up close and personal...I just believe (here's your direct challenge) defining a religion that works well for millions of people within a hate-filled nomenclature is an oversimplification borne of ignorance, fear, laziness...and I believe that applies to both sides of this cultural war...

and I've heard it a thousand times and counting...how many Christians are flying planes into buildings? as if somehow that makes it OK to expect Muslims to convert as the answer to the conflict...

My fiancee is from Kyrgyzstan and my family in law to be couldn't be happier...that's the difference...they're not predjudice...my, Christian family is...

find another girl, Eddie

with ALL due respect Ploome...go fuck yourself.

sorry ed--but war never accomplished anything but end nazism,facism,communism and slavery--frankly until 9/11 i couldn't given a flyng fuck about muslims and the koran--i've visted many of their countries and while staying in 5 star hotels thought their cultures were quaint and straight out of the bible--shows how ignorant i was--not dumb just ignorant--the events of 9/11 have forced me to become an expert in this culture[i would've preferred to read art history] but the threat from murderers[i live uptown from ground zero]forced me to investigate the motives of my potential assassins--you should read victor davis hanson at nro and mark steyn to get an intellectual perspective on the historical sea change we're going through--until this jihadi culture is vanquished by extreme force and violence they will continue to engage in their violent islamofacist fantasies and put you and your girlfriend in harm's way--don't have to kill them all--just the one's who want to kill you--you can't reason with people who don't believe in reason--you can't play chess while the other guy is playing hockey--be careful and protect your girlfriend from an honor killing

Edward (#154)

...I just believe (here's your direct challenge) defining a religion that works well for millions of people within a hate-filled nomenclature is an oversimplification borne of ignorance, fear, laziness...

You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on this site who is ignorant about Islam. You have fears or you wouldn't be asking questions. Actually, why are you asking questions? No matter what the responses have been they aren't what you want to hear so you dismiss them. If you have it all figured out, please share.

Eddie might be lucky enough to have a GF who is a "cultural" Muslim, who isn't devoted to the religion.

There could be hope for him yet. Not to be cynical, the future in-laws might be happy because they see a ticket to America, land of the giant shopping mall.

( Ok, maybe a bit cynical)

#154 Edward,

I can't imagine that reducing a major religion to a "death cult" does anyone any good

Yes, so why don't you tell it to the people that are reducing Islam to a "death cult", the Mullahs in the Mosques that are preaching the death of jews, and asking Allah for their blood to freeze over. Cause we couldn't agree with you more. But the problem is how do we get the Imams and their followers to stop with the "death cult" they've created?

No matter what the responses have been they aren't what you want to hear so you dismiss them.

not true zulu...I've acknowledged the postings that taught me something...

you just haven't contributed to that at all yet...not that you should...but read up the thread...I admit where I've learned something...

Okay, #129 Edward, I'll fall for that scenario. I don't know the first thing about Pentecostalists, but are you saying you grew up in that and that you know it is the same as Muslims or the same as radical Islam? I grew up nondenominational Christian (Plymouth Bretheran I've heard it called), and they were somewhat evangelical. I take it you feel that evangelical Christian is somehow an evil thing. Struggling a little with a way to describe that while not wanting to put words in your mouth. I do know that up there in #86 you made a comment about Ashcroft types are convinced that Jews will burn in hell. I don't know what you consider an Ashcroft type, but what if they do think that? So what? I know that there is a little process that Christians think needs to take place to be born again and avoid going to hell. I'm not aware of a born again type Jew, and since I know basically nothing of Judiasm (wow, 2 religions and counting I'm not familiar with), I don't know if there is anything in the Jewish faith that would keep you from going through that previously mentioned "process." If I may be sarcastic, Christians - Ashcroft type or not - can be pretty intimidating. They hand out gospel tracts, they pray for you (in secret, no less), and the really agressive ones occasionally tell someone to their fact that they're going to hell.

I think that if a Muslim is dating you, she/he can't be hardcore Islamic, and Thanksgiving shouldn't be a problem unless someone mentions Israel.

Edward, I feel pretty confident in saying this, because I have travelled quite a bit, and I work with the military. I have seen guys come back from Korea, Panama, Germany, Spain, Crete, Japan and multitudes of other places (the Philippines have always been a biggie, and former Soviet Bloc nations are getting that way too)... with foreign wives.

Now, I'll admit love has large part to play in many of the marriages. But many more are mostly to do with a lonely guy in a far off place being hustled and shook down by a prettier-than-average native girl who wants to 'get away from it all'... and shop at the BX.

My friend has emailed me stories of the Marines he's working with down there who go into town, ostensibly to chase Kyrgy women, and find themselves getting chased rather more vigorously than is normal. What's the reason for that, do you suppose?

Edward,

I'm not in denial...I lived 9/11 up close and personal...I just believe (here's your direct challenge) defining a religion that works well for millions of people within a hate-filled nomenclature is an oversimplification borne of ignorance, fear, laziness...and I believe that applies to both sides of this cultural war...

works well...??

how deluded are you?

and no need to get nasty...I dont require any sexual advise from you!

Edward,

The term "death cult" is not, as used here, an historical, or even hysterical, anecdote. May I suggest you read, Ibn Warraq's, Leaving Islam, of which I am still in the middle of reading. Former Muslims, agnostic Muslims, even atheist Mulsims call Islam a "cult of death." That is not due to it's friendly, pot-luck supper, nature.

#158 Bovinaceous Sheriff Ed Moran

Yeah, zactly what I was thinking.

But the problem is how do we get the Imams and their followers to stop with the "death cult" they've created?

Fucking finally!!!

a real question that's not regurgitating one of the books someone's read.

By the way, citing an entire book as the defense for your position on a medium of immediate communication, unless requested, is useless...I've a library of books that have informed my opionions...just because you disagree with some of them, doesn't mean I can hide behind them

Jonny, that is the billion dollar question.

The answer, I believe, is economic...people let religion take its place as spiritual guidance, rather than daily instructions, when they consider themselves "haves" rather than "have nots." When the educated can't get jobs, the Imam's have much more influence...

Enlightenment, as noted above, can bring that break in the cultural impediments to this sort of economic reform.

OK, so I'm talking through my hat a bit, but that's why I'm here...to learn how Muslims can join the 21st century, short of all out war.

#129

Congratulations Edward.

I hope you and your muslim wife live a very happy life.
Don't let all the people here upset you. They're all keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do then spew pro-genocide comments about muslims.

When you say Islam is a deathcult, then you are implying muslims are members of that cult. And if you say the only solution is to completly get rid of Islam, then you are implying you would have to go to war/kill/convert all the muslims.

Don't waste your time argueing with Zulubaby. Her specialty is mainly getting down with Mr.Pol. Argueing with logic is not her strong suit.

Anyone who knows anything about history will know that Islam has had its ups and downs. Its up being around the 12th century, when in muslim Spain, jews, christians, and muslims lived more or less peacefully. Right now its at a low point. Almost all religions go through this cycle and it's up to the sane and reasonable people to encourage reformation of Islam. Calling it a "death cult" is just a reflection of someones ignorance and hate.

Here is a quote from an article byCharles Krauthammer , which sums up the situation with Islam nicely.

Is Islam an inherently violent religion? A debate on this subject has received much attention in the United States. The question is absurd. It is like asking whether Christianity is a religion of peace. Well, there is Francis of Assisi. And there is the Thirty Years' War. Which do you choose?

Edward you're obviously someone who does not belong on this website. If you stay a few more hours the inevitable "anti-semite" comments will be made against you. You don't need to put up with this crap.

and no need to get nasty

"Get a new girlfriend" is not nasty?

who's deluded?

Edward,

Honestly, I wish you the best of luck. Intercultural (is that what you call them?) relationships are never easy, but can be exciting and rewarding.

One thing though... may be I'm being too intrusive, but... shouldn't you introduce your girlfriend to your parents BEFORE you get engaged? I think they might have more problem with your attitude then her background, and rightly so.

Sorry, # 167 Sam, but you're full of it.

When you say Islam is a deathcult, then you are implying muslims are members of that cult. And if you say the only solution is to completly get rid of Islam, then you are implying you would have to go to war/kill/convert all the muslims.

Calling it a cult of death implies, at least to me, that deprogramming may be allowed, ala the Moonies. It may not work, but it might. And it is not deprogramming Muslims, just their suicidal/homicidal beliefs that the majority (including the ever so silent moderate ones) seem to love so well.

Don't waste your time argueing with Zulubaby. Her specialty is mainly getting down with Mr.Pol. Argueing with logic is not her strong suit.

Ooh la la!

Actually "Sam", I'm not arguing with Edward at all and he certainly seems like a reasonable person. Unlike you, so fuck off.

shouldn't you introduce your girlfriend to your parents BEFORE you get engaged? I think they might have more problem with your attitude then her background, and rightly so.

good point veebee...too late, I'm afraid, but I definitely need to keep that in mind when I go home...thanks.

#171 Zulubaby

GAZE

FOAD

Edward...

go see a shrink.

you have problems..

LGF is not where you come for relationship advise.

You know you are in deep shit...and your not going to find a way out of it here.

good luck

sam, likewise sweetheart.

Lucious Stormy One-

Back in the Navy I heard reference to the USA as "Land of the Big PX".

BTW, I dated a couple of Filipina woman during my occasional visits to Subic, and even though I know marriage was a big motivation, they seemed like genuinely sweet girls.

A LOT of the lifers had PI wives. I guess a sea/shore rotation on the order of 6 years at sea and two years ashore makes it hard to court American girls. On the other hand, we had guys in my department who married Australian girls after we visited Perth for almost two weeks at Christmas, and I didn't see that their lifestyle was any worse than ours. True love does happen. I did hear ( I doubt this, though) that Australian women think American men are more polite.

But that was a long time ago, when I was merely a wee laddie.

Edward,

I do hope that you know that you MUST convert to Islam, if you wish to marry this woman.

She cannot convert to any other faith, nor can she become an apostate!
In Islam, the sentence for apostasy or conversion is DEATH!!!

We are not making this up...This is in the quran...

The Koran discusses apostasy in several places. Apostasy will not be forgiven, so that the apostate will be thrown into hell. God can in no way forgive apostates, for they are unbelievers who have made themselves particularly punishable. It is interesting, however, that beyond eternal damnation, the Koran defines no concrete worldly penalty and no judicial procedure for the punishment of the apostate.

Persecution by the family

Apostasy is basically an offence to be prosecuted by the state, once charges have been brought. But often the relatives prefer to wash away the 'shame' of apostasy itself with an alternative 'solution' such as casting the offender out of the family , driving him out of the country, or even killing him.

In practice, the courts seldom deal with cases of apostasy. When Muslims convert to Christianity, they are usually punished unofficially by their families or even by onlookers instead of conviction by a judge. Immediate private revenge does at least seem to frequently follow a Muslim's declaration of his apostasy. Besides, judicial proceedings on apostasy provoke unwelcome attention in the Western press.

The apostate usually loses his job, and his family will possibly try to bring him back to the fold with the counsel of a Muslim clergyman, but if that fails, they may send him to a psychiatric clinic or out of the country, or expel him from the family.

His marriage is automatically dissolved, for marriage with an apostate is illegal, so that a male convert suddenly finds himself living in adultery with his own wife, who could also be stoned to death, if she refuses to leave him.

Islam threatens the apostate with severe penalties, whether he has become a Christian or has rejected religion altogether. Exile, disinheritance, divorce, intimidation, loss of family and of job, threats, beating, torture, prison and even death are very real expectations for any Muslim who becomes a Christian, even though not all may take place. Only seldom does the miracle occur that the family of the convert accepts his decision or become Christian as well. Otherwise, the new believer lives in constant danger of detection and persecution.

The penalties for conversion and apostacy...

Once a person enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allah and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)

The Rights of Women in Islam and Marriage...
Mixed Marriages

Muslim men are allowed to marry zimmis (non-muslims in an islamic country) but muslim women are not. The reason given is that feminine nature being less dominant and more flexible, she is more likely to adopt their way of life and less likely to affect their thinking. She may even be influenced to apostacise. At the best it would only be a carnal relationship and not an Allah-fearing one.

Nevertheless, islam frowns on muslim men marrying zimmis. There were cases where the Prophet, Umar and Ali did not allow such matches: "You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who oppose Allah and His Messenger." (58:22) If such a mixed marriage occurs then any children must be brought up as muslims.

Child Marriages

A girl who is given in marriage as a minor by someone other than her father or grandfather is able to accept or reject the bond on reaching adulthood. However, jurists hold that if she is given away by her father or grandfather the marriage is binding on her.

A girl is often virtually forced to marry an old man because he owns some land or can provide a large dowry.

The Prophet consummated his marriage with A'isha when she was nine and this was considered the age of consent for a long time. Even today many fundamentalists believe that a girl is adult at the first signs of puberty.

BTW: Once you convert to Islam, you cannot change your mind!

#166 Cat-2 Edward

The answer, I believe, is economic...people let religion take its place as spiritual guidance, rather than daily instructions, when they consider themselves "haves" rather than "have nots." When the educated can't get jobs, the Imam's have much more influence...

Barf. Retch. Gag.

Yeah... that's what they need. MORE welfare, but mustn't damage their fragile self esteem in the process. There's a word for people like you, and it's rather a nasty one... Socialist. Ew. I feel dirty just having typed it. You should come to Germany. You'd fit right in. But don't move to my neighborhood, I have plenty of moonbat neighbors already.

Edward, you'd better start converting now. Dense as you are, it's going to take you a lot of time to memorize the entire Koran.

zulubaby, I think Sam's "gaze" is casting aspersions in the wrong direction. Must be one of those not able to take to mirrors.

Muzel Tov Edward.

Fuck the Muslims, and keep fucking them till we're all one "colour".

#167 Sam,

Right now its [Ed Islam] at a low point.

Ummm... Thats pretty much where I live, in the "right now". Do you live in the 12th Century, where Muslims are enlightened? How do you get there?

1) Sam, it isn't wise to mess with Zulubaby

BTW, yeah, we Christians have things like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades, but find me any passage in the Christian scriptures where we are told to kill infidels.

I think your GAZE and FOADs backfired.

by the way...hinted at but not asked...we met in New York, not overseas...and I'm rather handsome (if I say so myself), so it's not some pathetic American falls for the beautiful but desperate Asian story...thank you

Rick Z, if you were that hideous would you want to look in the mirror? I have my suspicions about who "Sam" really is...

eddie--incidentally the head of uzbeckistan-islam karimov-a dictator-is busy crushing the crazy wahabbi movement in his country much to the chagrin of amnestry international--who thinks their political rights are being squelched--like putting charles manson in jail suppresses flower children--me thinks you're girlfriend's parents will be on the greencard doorstep toute suite after the wedding--a veritible daisey chain of relatives to follow--" yassir-da shortie struck bling bling-we all gwan to the land of the kufr -puhraise allah--feets start movin' now"

[bigoted word]s accept male muslim marriage to Christian and Jewish women because the ersatz "prophet" Mohammed (may hellfire torch his nuts at full velocity) married one of each. However, a Muslim woman doesn't have the same freedom of choice. Thus, permitting immigration of muslims facilitates bigotry. Ergo: its time to kick these carpet humping savages out of the Free World.

zulubaby,

---er, ah . . ., ahem . . .???

#182 Edward

...and I'm rather handsome (if I say so myself)..

If you DO say so yourself!

Trolldom

Cat 1: Strong blasts of argument, usually arising from a confabulation of Indymedia writers.

Cat 2: Increasing chance of blown arguments, wasted breath, and shot nerver. Many references to “oppressed Muslims in the West.”

Cat 3: Moderate troll-speak, including claims of “Occupied Jerusalem” and “President Arafat.”

Cat 4: Severe trollery, involving claims of St. Rachel of the Pancakes. Whining about persecution of CAIR board members.

Cat 5: Full widespread idiocy. Even Peter Jennings begins to use the word “alleged” when describing these accusations.

Edward:

The latest update on the Muslim civilian prison worker (the guy arrested yesterday at Logan Airport) says that he was dating a non-Muslim while he was at an Army intelligence school:

Quote: "The affidavit says Mehalba acknowledged that an uncle was an official with an Egyptian army intelligence unit. It also mentions a case from 2001, when Mehalba was a private first class studying interrogation techniques at the Army intelligence school at Fort Huachuca in Arizona, and when his then-girlfriend, Deborah Gephart, who had the same rank, was studying to be a counterintelligence agent.

Gephart was arrested for allegedly stealing a car, and a search of her home yielded a stolen laptop and a classified counterintelligence training manual. She was later discharged under less than honorable conditions, the affidavit says. Gephart could not be reached yesterday."

Link: [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Um, there are a lot of complications to romantic involvements with Muslims of either sex.

Edward could use a dose of evariste.

go see a shrink.

you have problems..

Ploome...you can ignore my questions, I won't mind...but if you think your "find a new girlfriend" comment was clever or insightful or anything but ugly and petty, I don't think I have anything to learn from you anyway.

Edward,
American men are a highly priced commodity, and not just overseas. Somehow they find a way to be both sensitive and masculine... and they help in the house!
When you visit your girlfriend's family, pay attention to family dinamics there. BTW, ask her parents out the life in the Soviet Union and their reasons for immigration.

#176 Ed Moran

Boy, you should see the base where I work. A lot of the guys here have Korean, Russian and Filipino wives. There is a high deployment rate at this base, and there are also huge crowds of TDY (or TAD, as I think the Navy calls it) Air National Guard members who come during the summer. I see a LOT, and I mean, a LOT of the Koreans and Filipino wives, at the base clubs (officer's club and NCO club), flirting with and picking up ANG guys. That's in addition to all the average, run of the mill screwing around that goes on here. And for whatever reason, the foreign born wives (especially the Asians, although that's unusual to their culture, I think) seem to be more promiscuous/unfaithful than the American girls. Or maybe they're just not as good at hiding it.

One women I do know about, she's married to an E-6, and is open about her desire to trade up and marry an officer. I am pretty sure she's not the only one.

/lurker mode

...sure am enjoying this...

However it goes, good luck Edward. I'm the last one to give love / marriage advise. ('though I did finally manage to hook me a keeper)

/continue lurker mode

Sam is committed to the idea that Islam has exhibited no greater tendency toward murder and oppression than Christianity or any other religion has, and to the idea that the sacred Muslim texts advise murder and oppression no more than the sacred texts of Christianity or any other religion.

I guess Edward is committed to these ideas, too. But he shouldn't marry his girlfriend until he's laid any doubts about them to rest. Because facing facts afterwards - well, divorce is no fun. I find it incredible to think that he has no reasonable doubts about these ideas.

Good luck Edward, and don't follow your heart. Hearts don't always have much brains.

HULUGU,

not sure I understand...

Kyrgystan doesn't currently have that same problem...not that the fundamentalists won't try again, but for a small nation, they're pretty impressive in keeping back the threat...

OK, Edward, I'll bite.

First, are you planning to convert, or is she, or neither? If neither, how do you plan to raise the kids? I think that's a more serious problem than your parents... With two religions that are both supremacist, I think you're going to have real problems.

Now, this may be a little harsh, but - given some of your comments, I'd say you're a natural for Islam. You have a problem with Jews (cf. your first ever post, and one or two in this thread); you think the choice is mass conversion or mass murder; and you think there's no real difference between prosletyzing and terrorism.

Second, what exactly is your plan? Are you going to tell your parents - "It's okay, Mom, Dad - Islam may be involved in some really awful things right now, but sooner or later there will be an enlightenment..."? Or do you think you and your fiancee will launch your own enlightenment enterprise? (If so, prepare for the fatwas...)

Steve Miller-

What about Troll Depressions and Sub-Trollian Storms?

Ploome:

The Bukhari Hadith presents a clear statement by the ersatz "prophet" of islamania, that abandoners be exterminated. The only muslims who don't recognize "murtad kush" (apostate killing) are those who rely solely on the authority of the unholy koran. An Ahmadiyah has posted an anti-Maududi booklet. Its worth a look.

[Link: www.alislam.org...]

You are probably aware that in 1974, the government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan changed their constitution in order to declare the "Qadianis" (Ahmadiyah) a "non-muslim minorty." In my estimate, 90% of American Muslims endorse murtad kush. And when they have the numbers to go beyond the mere occasional juror nullification in trials of muslims, they will enforce extermination fatwah.

Edward...

WHO CARES?

you have a problem with this relationship

its actually funny.

save a few buks, have a relationship problem??

come to LGF..for dating advise..

Eddie..grow up.

handsome eddie--with all due respect--your economic arguments are totally wack-- the saudi royal family is rich beyond allah's imagination yet contains some of the biggest religious nutjobs in islam--most of the 9/11 wackjobs were upper middle class students who wanted to become holy martyrs -bin ladden/zawahiri--economics have zip to do with it--i ain't worried about brazilian favella dwellers blowin' up my delta flight to miami--its religious ideology my friend and social indoctrination--this isn't time for a therapeutic cultural analysis mofo--we are at war--guess what--i want to kill my enemy before he kills me--you "understand" him on the way to the cemetary dude

#200 Ploome,

its actually funny.

I too find myself quite amused by this debacle.

Hulugu-

As always, an excellent post, but what do you have against capitalization and punctuation?

Um... We need some cute Scottish Fraggle cows in this thread, STAT.

Like, Bovinaceous, dude.

199 Camel Prophet

Islam never changes, the tactics do...

when they are weak, they seem moderate

when they are strong majority, the true colors emerge

202 Jonny

ughhh

he is getting angry, because we wont tell him what he wants..

and he KNOWS we are correct.

but his 'thinking' center is below the belt now..

so waddyagonnado?

Edward:

Much luck to you - I mean that sincerely. I don't know what it would be like to marry someone who had a very different belief-set than I have. (It's hard enough even when your partner DOES share a lot of your values.)

Some may get by with insults - I don't think I need to insult you. I'm not so sure we're communicating, though. I think - for me - the issue is that there is a distinction between blood-thirsty terrorists and peace-loving religionists. It's fairly easy to identify the terrorists in that they say what they're going to do, and then some of them implement their statements.

So when a bunch of terrorists post a web site or tell the world that they're going to kill Americans and/or Jews, and then they DO kill Americans and/or Jews, I think it's easy to say: "OK, Mr. Terrorist, here come the Marines" - and then we let the US armed forces kill every single blasted terrorist without mercy.

When we have a set of peaceful religionists who say, "Just leave us alone. Our religion is peace, and if you accept us, fine. If you reject us, fine," and they leave me alone, then fine. I don't care.

It's how to deal with the ones who claim to be moderate, and yet whine about their oppression because the West doesn't "understand" their issues, and who CONSTANTLY whine about Jews and Israel and Yesha ("Gaza and the West Bank"), and who approve of this with a few asides about "those poor oppressed Palestinians - of course we must understand the root causes - it's those Brits/Yanks/Jews who provoke the poor faithful Mohammedans" - well, that just gets tiresome.

Ibrahim Hooper yowls about how unfair it is to constantly pick on Mohammedans - even as one, two, three Mohammedan spies are subverting US authority and lying about their loyalty to America in their work at Gitmo. Why doesn't Ibrahim come out and say, "Mohammedans who swear fealty to the US must either stay loyal to the US - or they should leave. No Mohammedan should EVER put his loyalty to his religion above his loyalty to the state and STILL expect the state to support him." I would expect the same to any religionist - I refer to JFK who spoke about his Catholicism, and stated that his faith would never provoke him to disobey his oath to protect, support, and defend the Constitution - and if his faith and his oath conflicted, he'd resign.

So I get tired of the constant whining by the Hooper types that we don't "understand" Islam, or that we are "unfair," or that we "hate" Mohammedans - when really, we don't care. We just want to be left alone. And if we're not left alone, and we if have a group of terrorists who use their faith as reasons to kill people and destroy civilizations - then just let it be known that we will hunt them down and we will eliminate them. That's all. It's not Mohammedans that we care about at all. Really. It's terrorists.

I should think that a caring Mohammedan would be grieved at the hijacking of his religion by terrorists - and would make LOUD, PUBLIC, and CONSISTENT statements about how terror is ALWAYS wrong - without any reservations about how "Israel does it" and "the US is a terrorist state" and "how come Israel and the US get to have nuclear bombs but us poor oppressed Mohammedan-types are forbidden? Wah wah wah."

I just have NOT heard ANY statements like this. Every time I hear a Mohammedan say how it's wrong to kill people, it's ALWAYS shaded with "Well, you know, it's ok when Palestinians do it to protest Israeli occupation blah blah blah."

It's the way the common Mahommedan representative presents his faith as something infantile and sickly that must be protected from the abuses of the strong and confident. That's what gets me.

Peace, love, and David Soul

Any chance Eddie and Ahem are related? I know Eddie says he is Pentacostal, and Ahem says he is Jewish. Curiously, Eddie seems hostile to Christians, and Ahem seems hostile to Jews. No better way to add "impact" to the argument than claim you are an enlightened member of a bad group.

They both claim to be in New York City, too...

Steve "Don't Give Up on Us Baby" Miller-

excellent post.

Darnitall, I have to go home now and VFLIDE never showed up to share her warm Irish wit and wisdom.

#105 rebmiami

and

#109 steve miller

Excellent, excellent posts, gentlemen. Very well stated. You guys rock!

#207 Steve

That was a good post. I can't stand the way the arabs and muslims in general blame all their problems on jews. I'm so sick of the anti-American and anti-jew rants that seem to fill the pages of the arab press.

Fuck'n hell, wake up world! Poverty is a result of bad government. Wake up arabs! look at your own bad governments before pointing the finger.

eddie murphey--my point is that the relative peacefulness of muslims in superman's birth place-kygrystan- is because the soviet communist atheists brutally suppressed the one true religion in all the stans--turning mosques into palaces of culture--a very good idea btw-so its re-emergence post-glasnost is relatively mild--except for the fundo nutjobs supported by the wahabbis--who want your reformation back to the pious pure times--the ex commie nomenklatura won't abide this--kind of like the turkish army supressing far out islamism--so the only good islam is when it is suppressed or in the minority--def mo was a pussycat when he was in mecca--he only became a murdering brigand pedophile when he went to medina robbed and killed the jewish tribes and convinced his vicious buddies that religious gangsterism was where its at for money and pussy

Edward,

You keep talking about reformation of Islam, moderating influences on Islam, enlightenment etc.

What, in your mind, is the basis for such a reformation? Is it going to be based on Islamic first principles, i.e. the example of Mohammed and his teachings (Quran/Sunna), or is it going to be based on intellectual theories developed external to Islam and then somehow incorporated into it? In either case, what do you think are the chances that it will "succeed" and why?

I am genuinely curious...

I missed that part where Edward said his background was Pentacostal/ism.

I feel like Linda Blair - my head is spinning at the comparison of Pentacostalism and Mohammedanism.

Wow.

Good news tonight, fellow lizardoids (Edward, YOU are not in our club):

My sheets aren't being dried tonight, so I can go to bed on time. I bid you adieu, and wish you a bovinatious evening and sweet fraggle cow dreams.

#203 ed moran--i like e.e. cummings and i'm lazy :-]

#208 Ed:
With all due respect, I don't think it's fair to mention Edward in the same breath as... the other guy. I think he's searching in good faith (no pun intended).

Edward, I truly wish you and your fiancee all good things. When is the big meeting with your parents? Are her parents already in the States? If not, have you met them? etc. etc. /nosy

As others have mentioned, even under the best of circumstances a "mixed" marriage can be tough. Hell, I married another Jew but we had have very different levels of observance. He humours me at home, and I turn a blind eye in restaurants :-)

My personal contacts with Muslims have been positive, although in the case of those I met outside Israel I took care to avoid discussing The Topic. But the evidence I've seen of the most vocal and extreme adherents, whether or not they are the majority, and the lack of clear condemnation from moderate, practicing (i.e., non-apostate) Muslims of terrorism in the name of Islam, worries me enormously.

Lucia,

Why isn't Edward in the club?

I thought he was the jester?

#129 Edward

If you think there's no difference between Pentecostalism and Islam, then you need to get an education.

You can start by going to this link where you can Learn the Truth About Islam

Geez Louise - I wondered why this thread got so long.

Edward,

You say:

The answer, I believe, is economic...people let religion take its place as spiritual guidance, rather than daily instructions, when they consider themselves "haves" rather than "have nots." When the educated can't get jobs, the Imam's have much more influence...

Coming from a fundamentalist background you should know this isn't true. Don't you know well-off Christian fundamentalists who are just as fundamental as the poor guys?

Anyway, I think if you stay in the West I think you will be okay with your new wife. IF you go to a predominantly Islamic country...well...that is a different story. Read up on what goes on in Islamic countries. I In Jordon, for instance, children default to the Islamic parent in a divorce - no questions asked.

The thing most people who criticize Islam focus on is Islamic theology. If their are loosey-goosey Muslims out there who don't adhere to orthodox doctrine, great for them and great for the world (seriously). But that doesn't change what Orthodox Islamic doctrine teaches. Now if we are talking about a "new" kind of Islam - something unorthodox, okay by me too. I just make sure to read the fine print.

Daniel Pearl had his throat slit by Islamists in the ritual Islamic way.

'We' on the other hand are bent on slitting 'our' own throats.

The fact remaimns that all these muslims, from chaplains to professors etc are supposed to be the moderate muslims. But day by day we see that in one way or the other, moderate muslims are also engaged in the jihad, not as grenade throwers but as facilitators of it.

Forget bombing, nuking, invading Iraq, Iran etc. The only way, is to admit that muslims are right when they say there is a dar al-islam. Then forcefully invite them to go back there.

That will solve this problem pretty quick.

Edward,

I can understand your view of the Penticostals as intolerant as I was raised a Southern Baptist and had some of the same issues that I percieve you to have with your family's religious beliefs.
That being said, I would like to know if you have any ideas regarding how islam might go about changing from it's present form to something that is less of or not at all a threat to the rest of the world.

Pardon my outlandish curiosity, but what does FAOD stand for?

I know it's not pretty, but I'm still curious. Um, no, that's exactly why I would like to know... ;-)

btw, in case anyone - especially Edward - cares, I am not Jewish, and I come from a family background where anti-Semitism was rampant. It took a lot to tell my mom to shut up about her Jew-baiting -- but I did. And still do. She was wrong in the 30s and 40s, and she's wrong now in the 21st century. The Jews didn't destroy Germany, and her countrymen were moral monsters for killing 6 million Jews and 3 million other undesireables. (Stalin and Mao were FAR worse; they just don't get as much moral blame in the West, which is odd - but that's another thread for another day.)

It is incomprehensibly bizarre to hear ANYONE blaming their troubles on Jews, as if there's some big conspiracy designed to put down everyone else. It's fun to read about a conspiracy in a Robert Ludlum novel (note: he NEVER talks about a Jewish conspiracy), but it's not what happens in the real world. People are too stupid, too self-centered, and too talkative to have such conspiracies.

And I simply cannot take anyone or any country seriously that spouts any nonsense that the Jews are responsible for their troubles. That's why generally ANYTHING the Arabian/Islamite countries say is stupid: to them, it's ALWAYS about the Jews and the poor Arabs. (Clue: which countries have HUGE deposits of natural gas and oil and masses of poverty-stricken, fly-blown people, and what country in the same region is gas-and-oil poor and yet has one of the highest per capita rates of Nobel prizes? So tell me again about how the Jews did that to the poor Arabs.)

Would it kill the Islamites to think, just once, that their troubles are of their own making, that their Islamite culture keeps them in chains and in poverty, and that their ETERNAL pre-occupation with the Jews keeps them from doing anything except seethe, whine, and blow their chance for peace?

Sheesh.

I don't think so.

Unfortunately, I pretty much expect it will take the US/British/Australian/NZer/Israeli resolve to smack down the terrorists, harder and harder until they are eliminated from this earth, to convince the Islamites that PERHAPS they just MIGHT be a bit TOO focused on what the "others" are doing, and MAYBE they should take some time to FIX THEIR OWN DANG PROBLEMS.

hostile?

having the capacity to try and see the world from someone else's point of view makes me hostile to Christians?

this is clearly a no-holds barred sort of site...so forget the gloves...

To me it seems many of the "locals" here clearly come back again and again to pat themselves on the back for having read the required reading and to blast the newbies (who are trolls until proven otherwise) out of their "naivity" (which here is code for tolerance)...

forget my relationship...boy am I sorry I brought it up...it's good, it makes me happy, everyone and everything else can go to hell in a handbasket...'nough said.

and he KNOWS we are correct.

Ploome, I'll pick on you...you were tacky enough to suggest I get a new girlfriend, so you get the honors...

here's the extent of your demonstrated Wisdom in this thread...others suggest you've earned your points elsewhere, but true Wisdom doesn't wear thin so quickly...

Islam is a fascist death cult...we have to understand that, and realize it a subversive violent movemet, intent on enslaving and destroying Western, non Muslims

Enslaving us? Really? That's what we're up against...slavery? No wonder you're all atitter...that's awful.

The problem with this oft repeated misunderstanding is that it's not Islam, but a political perversion of Islam, and save your freakin' quotes from the Koran, I've got matching quotes about eyes for eyes from the Bible...true Islam is a peaceful religion and except for a few Imam's with political agendas is taught as such.

Do we have a problem? Yes. Contemporary Islam is incompatible with globalization, as most places it goes hand in glove with an oppressive state...but not all...and therin lies the reason for hope.

OT but interesting if true:

Kuwait foils smuggling of chemicals, bio warheads from Iraq
Associated Press
Kuwait City, October 2

Kuwaiti security authorities have foiled an attempt to smuggle $60 million worth of chemical weapons and biological warheads from Iraq to an unnamed European country, a Kuwaiti newspaper said on Wednesday.
[Link: www.hindustantimes.com...]

#224:

what does FAOD stand for?

No idea :-). FOAD, on the other hand, is explained on the FAQ page.

#226 edward

The problem with this oft repeated misunderstanding is that it's not Islam, but a political perversion of Islam

Converting the world to Islam is surely a political perversion.

Edward

The problem with this oft repeated misunderstanding is that it's not Islam, but a political perversion of Islam, and save your freakin' quotes from the Koran, I've got matching quotes about eyes for eyes from the Bible...true Islam is a peaceful religion and except for a few Imam's with political agendas is taught as such.

LOL. The truth comes out.

So how do you know what true Islam is? What makes YOUR definition of it any more true than the Wahabbis?

NOTHING. That's what.

In fact, the Wahhabis have scripture on their side. Just like the Christian fundamentalists.

The reason Christianity was able to "enlighten" was exactly because most Christians gave up the idea of a TRUE religion. They gave up the idea of infalibility.

Anytime ANYONE goes on about TRUE ISLAM - that is sign number one there is not enlightened Islam.

And LOL. You think this is the first time we heard this apologia. "not true Islam" ROFLOL. We've heard it a thousand times, bud.

snopes,

fair enough

Anytime ANYONE goes on about TRUE ISLAM - that is sign number one there is not enlightened Islam.

how about Islam as widely practiced then, instead of "true Islam"

#228 cba Paul,

Ewww. I can feel the jinns.

Thanks mate.

[Link: www.ictucson.com...]

Friday lecture of October 4th, 2002 - Slaves of God

GIVEN BY IMAM OMAR

Allah almighty says in Alfurqan Chapter of the Holy Quran what could be translated as: “And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!” [64] Those who spend the night in worship of their Lord prostrate and standing”

Allah almighty has described his servants with a precise description in order for us to follow in their footsteps. Allah Almighty started by saying “the slaves of (Allah) Most Gracious” as an indication to their real loyalty.

Allah associated the words “Most Gracious” with servants as an unprecedented honor and dignity that were not granted to anyone before them. They are loyal to and true slaves of Allah and Allah alone.

They are not slaves of their desires, wealth and high positions. They are true believers and followers of Allah’s way. What an honor for any one to be called by Allah “the slaves of (Allah) Most Gracious”.

Allah has dignified those alone among all humanity. Because of them, Allah will also dignify the whole Islamic Nation.

Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him said: “you will keep on fighting with the Jews until the fight reaches the east of Jordan river then the stones and trees will say:oh Muslim, oh (servant) slaves of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; except the
tree will not say this,

Notice that the Prophet said “Muslim, the servant of Allah”, not just “oh Muslim”

...read the rest.

Eddie...you got a real problem

steve miller, you blow me away.

Edward:

Let's suppose you took a set of comments from the web pages from the Official Websites for the various Christian and Jewish sects. And you took some transcripts from a random set of their sermons. How many of them would involve inviting God to murder their enemies? (Random, meaning no cherry-picking to find select passages. Just go browse a site and find a set of comments. Or go to a church or synagogue and transcribe the sermon. You'll likely fall asleep before you're done, but try it.)

Now take a random sermon from, say, the official sermon from Medina, Mecca, Qom, Cairo, or any other Mohammedan site. (You can easily do so with the links Charles oh-so-helpfully provides.)

Now, do they look the same?

Do you see how some might think that Islam is officially concerned with killing Americans, Brits, and Israelis, when their "official" prayers commonly invoke God's help to kill Americans, Brits, and Israelis?

Last time I looked, Pope John Paul's Urbi et Orbi sermon didn't do much more than encourage Catholics who were a bit loose on their church attendance. No mention of Death to Lutherans! or such nonsense. I've read plenty of sermons & speeches by rabbis, and besides being over-the-top earnest and on-the-one-hand-this-and-on-the-other-hand-that, they generally seem to avoid asking God to kill those lousy Christians who got that shiny New Testament. And except for a few marginalized sects of Christianity, most of the Protestant sermons involve exhorting people live better lives. And sometimes tithing. ;)

Like we've said, we really don't care about the average Mohammedan. We just want to keep our eye open, and we will make no truce with terrorists.

That's pretty easy for me to understand.

ploome,

my "problem" is that I don't know everything...

this is a good quote...thanks for sharing...but I'm confused about it's relationship to your earlier statement...

this seems to imply that slaves and servants are interchangeable in this context... much the way that Christians are "servants of the Lord"

that's a very different read from "subversive violent movemet, intent on enslaving and destroying Western, non Muslims" which brings to mind the actual enslavement of Europeans in the Ottoman Empire.

eddie--i give up--stop putting down what we've read and know--its like arguing plato with a kaligari bushman--your smart and respectful but unlearned--you'd make a perfect dhimmi--if you know what i mean--which you probably don't--its like your arguing about the use of the future imperfect tense in the italian language while only understanding english but having seen fellini"s "la dolce vita" with your italian girlfriend--cuhluuless!!

#177 fiery celt

Right on.

And Edward just in case you dont believe what fiery celt wrote, a few days ago a muslim was convicted of slitting his daughters throat for going out with a Christian. And BTW, this dad was not an Islamist, just an ordinary muslim.

As for muslims not converting. You are hopelessly wrong. Muslims are first victims of Islam. They are afraid to leave for their life. In a true war, with Islam as the enemy, they will convert so fast, it will make your head spin.

Edward,

(True Islam. I am still laughing.)

Is your bride-to-be a Sufi or a Sunni? Or another sect? Perhaps a Quran only Muslim? Can you answer any of these questions?

Can you answer these questions?

Define ahadith? Ever read through them?

The first four caliphs?

The Pact of Umar?

Can a non-Muslim testify against a Muslim under Sharia?

What is the punishment for apostasy? Look it up in ahadith. Peruse through a few Islamic websites on the subject.

***

The fact that you said "true Islam" was the dead giveaway you don't know much about Islamic doctrine.

And stop with the "but the Bible says." The vast majority of Christians aren't intending to force anyone to live by the laws of Leviticus. And to the extent they do, their are tons of people there to stand up and say NO. That is what we are doing with Islam. We are saying NO.

I don't really care who you marry, but p l e a s e don't expect me to fall for "true Islam" malarkey. I can read the Quran and ahadith as well as anybody, you know.

Edward, I know there's a lot here, but did you get a chance to read my #218 and link?

Edward,

There is no tradition of separation of mosque and state in Islam. Instead it evolved as a religion that is both a law and a state. As a mater of fact, there was no period in ME history when Islam was separate from political institutions. In fact, the concept of nation, which we in the West usually tie to the state, is not deeply rooted in the region at all.

I think you might want to put your marriage on hold for a couple of days and read Middle Eastern Mosaic by Bernard Lewis, in particular the chapter that pertains to religion. It's a quick and easy read and a good intro into the field.

As for contemporary affairs, radical imams are not few in numbers. They are also very influential; they preach in Mecca, for instance.

#234 zb--you cheap hooer--we have fun one night and your already blowin' other guys--wimmin--yeesh :-]

#230 etc. Snopes

Usually, the people who whine about Christian fundamentalists are the people who are mad that these folks would dare to, say, oppose intrauterine baby-killing or who think that somehow, against all scientific knowledge, life did yet manage to appear from magical amino acids formed in an non-existent reducing atmosphere in the early earth.

In short, they are whiners who try to build mountains out of molehills, and fall into idiotically outlandish comparisons like drawing a parallel between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists.

Like I've said before, Christian fundamentalists distribute Gospel tracts and Islamic fundamentalists distribute explosives. Man, the similarities must be mind-boggling, if only I could see them...

Be back in a couple of hours.

Edward (#231):

how about Islam as widely practiced then, instead of "true Islam"

Islam as widely practiced today is a hateful, murderous and mendacious cult.

#236 edward

Why don't you read how the muslims conquered Spain the repercusion of it:

The militant monotheism that infused the Islamic concept of jihâd could not tolerate the existence of religious alternatives that recognized neither God's unity nor the inevitability of his judgement. Thus polytheists were given no real choice by their Muslim conquerors but to embrace Islam. The Christians and the Jews were, however, a different matter. Having met the basic monotheistic criterion, their only failure in the eyes of the Muslims was their misinformed, but ultimately tolerable, reluctance to accept Muhammad as the most recent in the long line of prophetic successors to Abraham. This ambiguity in the religious status of the scriptuaries or "peoples of the book" led to a certain ambiguity in their legal position within Islamic society as well. Though tolerated and protected on the basis of their monotheism, they suffered political subjection and the stigma of a special tax, the jizya, as a penalty for their rejection of Muhammad's prophethood.
[Link: libro.uca.edu...]

Edward,

Okay I wrote my last post before I read this.

how about Islam as widely practiced then, instead of "true Islam"

This statement is much better. Thank you.

Though I still think you don't know much about the total of Islamic doctrine. And I don't think you know much about the ins and outs of what goes on in predominantly Muslim countries.

Please check out
[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]
and talk to people who live in Islamic countries.

HULUGU (#242)

You're the one that fell off the bar! Do you even remember anything!?

(I can't stop laughing and now I'm getting looks... )

Steve,

There are terrorists who want to kill us...I know...I watched them. These terrorists were Muslim...I know...I watched the TV reports.

Islam is clashing with globalization...we're the advocates for globalization, so we want Islam to change...

I'm there...fully agree.

But the rhetoric goes further than that.

You asked me to imagine something...please do the same.

You're a Muslim living in America. You're from a fairly secular family and secular nation. You obsever Ramadan, but more out of custom than devotion, per se.

9/11 happens. Everyone looks at you now like you're the enemy...the same people who wished you a good day on 9/10.

They start telling you TO YOUR FACE that your religion is a death cult.

You've never killed anyone. You abhor killing. You had friends die in the WTC too.

So here's what I want to know: where the hell do Americans get off treating people like this?

Even the President said he respects Islam...

I don't get it.

Hi Edward,

Okay maybe you're not a troll. You seem like a decent enough person. You're just, for want of a better term, a "September 10" person who's posting on a "September 12" site.

I used to be like you. I'm a woman, Christian, 30-something, and even though throughout my entire life Muslim extremists have been hijacking planes, killing Jewish athletes, exploding in Israel, blowing up embassies, and killing innocents in Sudan, East Timor, Iraq, Nigeria, and so on, I kept repeating the "it's only a small group who've perverted the peaceful image of Islam" mantra.

Then the Islamists killed 3000 innocent people in one day. Like a lot of people, a lot of my attitudes changed that day. Since then, I've been adding things up--the hijackings, the murders, the forced Islamicization of Africa and Asia, and the numbers are ugly. The numbers indicate that--after Communism and Nazism--Islam is the third most deadly political ideology of the past century. Then I go to a site like

The Middle East Media Research Institute

which every week prints translations of Muslim sermons from "The Two Holy Mosques," Yemen, UAE, Syria, and so on--places that have been Muslim for centuries, so they must know what they're practicing--and I hear that Jews are the sons of apes and monkeys, interspersed with prayers for the destruction of Christians and Americans. I take this a little personally.

Islam as "widely practiced"--by MILLIONS of people--wants to see me dead. I agree with you--it's a small percentage, but if there's 1 billion Muslims and only 1% of them are violent, that's 10 million people.

And the thing that a lot of us have trouble with is--where are these "moderate Muslims"? In America why are they not marching in the streets saying "Not in our name! This is not Islam! We repudiate all forms of terror, no ifs, ands, or buts!" Every time some monster kills an abortion provider, Christians immediately denounce the act. On the very few occasions where a Baruch Goldstein type has risen up, Jews immediately repudiate him. Where are the moderate Muslims? Even last night on the O'Reilly Factor, during a discussion of the alarming number of Muslim fifth columnists being found in our military, the Muslim community spokeswoman who came on did nothing but seethe and whine about how bad this hurt Muslim feelings. Wouldn't it have been refreshing if she had instead said "These guys are bad Muslims and bad Americans. We in the Muslim community will do everything we can to help the military root them out"? Unfortunately, you'll never see that happen.

People are just getting tired of it, is all. We keep hearing about the 99% of Muslims who are peaceful, but we see so few of those 990 million or so.

Edward,

Let's simplify this:

A Christian martyr = 1 dead Christian
A Muslim martyr = 19 dead Muslims + 3000 other folks

[Link: www.usc.edu...]

Koran 9:29

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

...choose your translation

cba Paul

Hell, I married another Jew but we had have very different levels of observance. He humours me at home, and I turn a blind eye in restaurants :-)

Did I understand you correctly? You're a man married to another man, right?

[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

"It is forbidden to the tolerated peoples living on Muslim territory to clothe themselves in the same manner as the chiefs, the scholars, and the nobles.

They should not be allowed to clothe themselves in costly fabrics which have been cut in the modes which are forbidden to them, in order that they may not offend the sensibilities of poor Muslims and in order that their faith in their religion should not be shaken by this. [Poor Muslims may regret their faith when they see how well-dressed the Christians and Jews are.]

"They should not be permitted to employ mounts like the Muslims. They must use neither saddles, nor iron-stirrups, in order to be distinguished from the true believers.

They must under no circumstance ride horses because of the noble character of this animal. The Most-High has said [Qu'ran 8:62]: 'And through powerful squadrons [of horses] through which you will strike terror into your own and God's enemies.' [A verse of the Qu'ran makes a good support for a law. Verses may even be torn out of their context.]

"They should not be permitted to take Muslims into their service because God has glorified the people of Islam. He has given them His aid and has given them a guarantee by these words [Qu'ran 3:140]: 'Surely God will never give preeminence to unbelievers over the true believers.'

Now this is just what is happening today, for their servants are Muslims taken from among men of a mature age or from those who are still young. This is one of the greatest scandals to which the guardians of authority must put an end. It is wrong to greet them even with a simple 'how-do-you-do'; to serve them, even for wages, at the baths or in what relates to their riding animals; and it is forbidden to accept anything from their hand, for that would be an act of debasement by the faithful.

They are forbidden while going through the streets to ape the manners of the Muslims, and still less those of the cities of the religion. They shall only walk single-file, and in narrow lanes they must withdraw even more into the most cramped part of the road.

Edward,

You're a Muslim living in America. You're from a fairly secular family and secular nation. You obsever Ramadan, but more out of custom than devotion, per se.

This is puzzling. If I am secular, what do I care what people say about a religion I do not fully believe in?

If you are asking, would I be concerned - as someone who appears to be a Muslim - for my safety? Yes.

Whatever people say, we in the West have been pretty good in not attacking Muslims, or appear like Muslims. Not perfect, but pretty good.

There have been more Christians killed in Pakistan alone for no other reason than being Christian than Muslims or appear-to-be Muslims have been killed in ALL of the West since 9/11.

Now, if you want to have a discussion on how to improve the lot for religious minorities all over the world...the US, Pakistan, Egypt...I am right there with you. Let's do something that improves ALL their lives. I am all for a two-way street that addresses bigotry on both sides. But if you are asking that we understand - without being understood - then no. That will not solve the larger problem and will only build more resentment toward Islam.

#247--zb--yeah so i fell off the bar loose lips--does that mean you have to lewinsky the first polymath who tickles your fancy--btw--where has your fancy been lately?

Sounds an awful lot like pay unto Caesar that which is Caesar's to me.

But that's not my point Ploome.

You suggested that Muslims are right now intent on making me their slave...can't see it happening...

Palandine,

thanks for your very thoughtful post.

There's a very interesting article in the New York Times yesterday about 9/10 vs. 9/12 mentality...at least that's how I interpreted it Remembering 9/11, With Numbness and With Rage...

in a nutshell it says those who lived through 9/11 and it's aftermath in large part don't share the rage about the event the rest of the country does, because "It was much harder to get those of us who were there to believe in the notion that killing others would somehow make us safer."

You say it so well "People are just getting tired of it, is all. We keep hearing about the 99% of Muslims who are peaceful, but we see so few of those 990 million or so."

Having travelled a bit in Muslim countries I've met some of those 990 million...they're generally incredibly generous, hardworking, lovely people...when you meet them, I think you'll change some of your views.

Edward.

There are indeed some muslims who are beginning to see the damage that Islam has wrought in the world since the time of its inception

[Link: www.secularislam.org...]

is a good place to start.

The genocide in the name of allah is documented here, as best as one can

[Link: www.flex.com...]

This genocide has no parallel in history, both in its intensity, ferocity and continiuity.

You are absolutely correct in positing that the Bible has some awful texts. But the old testament fire and brimstone, was abrogated by Jesus whose teachings and example are followed by Christians as best as they can.

For Muslims though, following the teachings of mohamed or his example, lead inevitably to Gitmo.

The tragedy for muslims is that there is nothing in the quran that will serve as a basis for reform of the religion or atleast strong enough and consistent enough for a reform along the path of enlightenment.

I really feel some sympathy for thoughtful muslims who try to find a way out of the moral and ethical maze they find themselves in; on one side modernity on the other the timeless quote of the desrt arab of the 7th century.

For some the only way is to leave islam despite the ever persistent threat of murder. Strange isnt it. Only apostate muslims have to hide, even in the West, from the wrath of their former brethren.

[Link: www.dhimmitude.org...]

Articles
Reading (about) Islam. Diana Muir ponders the relations of Muslims with others, in a poetic voyage through history, musing over art, architecture philosophy and with pertinent discussions on books and authors.

Dhimmitude, by Sohail Ahmad Banglori

The Dhimmi Jews and Christians Under Islam, by Jim Gerrish, Church and Israel Forum

The Cross and the Crescent, by Francis X. Maier
Where Seldom Is Heard, by Diane Alden, September 28, 2001

Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide, Introduction, by Bat Ye'or

Proxy war spreads to Gujarat By N. S. Rajaram

The Plight of Eastern Christianity under Islam (Part III) by Bassam M. Madany

Islam is More Than a Religion - II by Bassam M. Madany

Jihad Conquests, National Review, June 2002

Global Jihad and America's War, by Bat Ye'or, Middle East Forum, February 19, 2002

Dhimmis for Dummies, by Marvin Olasky.

HULUGU,

eddie--i give up--stop putting down what we've read and know--

my apologies...it's just that so far I've been assigned at least a dozen books and half a dozen websites, and while your point about discussing Plato with a Kaligari Bushman is well taken, this medium would also suggest folks here should be able to summarize effectively.

Edward,

Sounds an awful lot like pay unto Caesar that which is Caesar's to me.

What are you reading? I think you are ignoring certain quotes.

IMO, the slave thing is overdone - though they do enslave non-Muslims in jihad - like in the Sudan - look it up in the adhadith.

More likely observant Muslims want us all to live under Sharia. That is more like Jim Crow than slavery.

Edward,

, this medium would also suggest folks here should be able to summarize effectively.

LOL.

Okay.

Orthodox Islam does not recognize a separation of religion and state. Orthodox Islam recognizes Sharia law. Sharia law has two components - a personal (what to eat, how to bathe) and a public (punishments for apostasy and adultery, etc.)

Under Sharia law - ignoring the stoning sentences for adultery and the death sentences for apostasy for a minute - non-Muslims are SECOND CLASS citizens. It is an inherently BIGOTED system encoded in Islamic doctrine.

I have no issue with personal Sharia. Whatever one wants to believe and do with their own life...no skin off my nose. I do have a big problem with public Sharia. I have no intention of becoming a "dhimmie" under Islamic law. And I will stand-up and speak for those who experience such discrimination in Islamic countries.

It is exactly because I am against bigotry that I speak out against this.

Edward,

this medium would also suggest folks here should be able to summarize effectively.

We did summarize. But out of respect for your intelligence and in spirit of search for truth, we give sources. Nobody can serve you knowledge on golden platter. It's your responsibility to do the research, esp. if your loved ones are involved. Conversely, never trust people who don't give you their sources.

May be you should go to the library now, do some reading and come back when you are ready for a discussion.

eddie--fuck the times--reading it today is like reading pravda in 1964--i lived through 9/11 right here in nyc and i have a blood dripping jambiya in my mouth evincing my urge to very violently kill these motherfuckers--sure there are mannerly muslims in the umma--they're people--i'm sure there are nice cannibals too only that won't make much difference when your in the boiling pot and they're hungary!!

Thanks, Edward, for your response.

I agree more than I can express that it would be hard to be a Ramadan-observant Mohammedan in America when the loud voices start crying that Islam is a death cult.

It is hard.

But is it not also possible to have a response along the lines of "I *totally* agree with you that terrorism is wrong - and I *totally* reject terrorism in any fashion as a means to conversion. And I will do *everything* I can to destroy terrorism. And the FIRST thing I will do is to denounce CAIR, ISNA, and all other Muslim-sounding fronts for terrorism. I will openly state that Israel has a right to exist without reservation."

I would be more than happy to state - and do state - that the Mohammedan in America should be left alone to do WHATEVER he wants. I really don't care.

But the *actions* of the typical Mohammedan in America are to support terrorist fronts through the guise of "charity" donations, and when the terrorist fronts are uncovered (by the arrest of terrorist-enablers, spies, and the closure of terrorist-front organizations), I just have NEVER heard any Mohammedan in America say "How awful that I was fooled! I thought I giving to a charity, and my money was misused!" (The reason I can say "typical" is that I simply haven't seen or heard of any Mohammedan in America speak up about this.)

It's too bad, really, that the Mohammedans feel afraid. However, if I were a Mohammedan (G-d forbid!), I would try to see WHY America saw me and my religion as a fifth column. And I would do whatever I could to eliminate the reasons *by changing my behavior and the behavior of those whom I can affect* instead of trying to spin the actions with whining of "you don't understand our religion of peace" and "it's the damned Jews' fault" and "the Palestinians are oppressed."

I lost ALL patience with the Mohammedans on 9/11 when I NO MOHAMMEDAN said "I condemn those terrorists WITHOUT exception or excuse." ALL I heard was "well, you have to understand our rage," and "we are oppressed" and the like.

I am no longer neutral. Now it's time for the Mohammedans in America to put up or shut up.

Just as an aside, I regularly review the press releases from the various "official" Mohammedan societies in America (I have other accounts so that I can get a clear view and sound guidance on their opinions). And I have never, NEVER, seen these Mohammedans who speak for American Mohammedans offer ANY contriteness or repentance for the DESPICABLE BEHAVIOR of their co-religionists. ALL I have heard/seen/read is that it's AMERICA's fault, it's MY fault, it's ISRAEL's fault, it's BUSH's fault, whine, whine, whine.

What a great chance the Mohammedan press had when the spies at Gitmo were uncovered. I was waiting for the UNEQUIVOCAL condemnation of treachery. But what I got was the TYPICAL whine "you can't use the alleged bad actions of two Mohammedans to base your opinions of ALL Mohammedans" IN THE SAME PRESS RELEASES where the Mohammedan societies blamed ALL ISRAEL for the actions of a few Jewish nut-cases who were going to blow up a mosque.

Excu-u-u-u-se me? Do you think we're idiots? What I hear from the Mohammedan press is that they are so oppressed and misunderstood, that Islam means peace, yada yada yada.

They blew it, because they have the mix of their superior attitude about their religion combined with the aching sense of the reality of failure of the Islamite culture.

As far as I can tell, the Islamite culture is second-class status for women and slavery for second-class and third-class citizens. Any culture that says women need to keep their heads covered and mouths shut is a barbaric and uncivilized culture. I don't care if the slaves in antebellum America sang and danced about their happy conditions - they were slaves, and their slavery was demeaning in ALL cases. So I don't care if an Islamic women says how wonderful it is to be caged, burqa'ed, and kept. She is still a slave and she is still treated as second-class. And I don't care if 700 years ago Europe had serfs, esnes, bishops, and kings. Irrelevant. We don't have slaves NOW, and we don't have to let slavery exist in our society.

It is so amazing to me to see how leftists look to make everyone so equal that they have to seek out and even create new interest groups. such as transgendered bi-polar diabetics. And yet they are CHOOSING to turn a blind eye to the creeping slavery instigated by the so-called religion of peace. No matter how they slice it, Mohammedanism means women are second-class citizens.

I don't care if nuns wear habits. I don't care if Mohammedan women wear burqas, really. I do care that Mohammedans are seeking to make burqas acceptable by making women ashamed to be equals in society.

And geez, I say this as someone who is slightly to the right of Rush Limbaugh. Why can't leftists see this?

Let me use another analogy. Suppose there was an "officially Christian" country that officially had slaves today, and used torture as a general means to keep slaves. And that if you went to that country, you would be horsewhipped & ejected if you tried to change things.

Now imagine the reaction of the (a) typical American Christian and (b) the typical American. Do you think the typical American Christian would be sending money TO SUPPORT THE SLAVERY and do you think the typical American would just say "Oh, those crazy, oppressed Christians. I can understand their need for slaves"? I wouldn't expect the Americans to necessarily run to overturn that government, but I would have every expectation that the typical American and Christian to express REVULSION at the actions of that slave-supporting Christian nation, with the revulsion that they were giving Christians a bad name, and that Christianity freed the slaves, and so on. I fully understand that in the past Christians were slave-owners, but our society has progressed, and we no longer excuse slavery. We have grown up to understand Lincoln.

Now, think how it looks for Americans to see Mohammedans EXCUSE the terrorism of their co-religionists. Not condemnation, not excoriation. Excuses, whining, pleading. It comes across as at best sympathy for terrorists. And so with each terrorist act we are more and more inclined to think the WORST of the Islamite religion.

If you truly want to affect the Islamite faith, you should be pressuring your soon-to-be--co-religionists to modernize. You should be pressuring them to condemn the terrorism and barbarity that is modern-day Mohammedanism. I don't think your discomfort with the acts of the "few" Islamites who are terrorists is really enough anymore.

I don't hate the Muslims. I hate the terrorists, because they seek to kill me and my society and return us to the barbarity of North Africa in the 8th century. And I really have no patience with those who would ask me to "understand" and have "patience." If the Islamites want to live in the same century I do, they had better change.

#243 Titus,

Frankly, pre-9/11, my biggest nightmare was Jerry Falwell. Then I started learning about Islam. Crikey. I appreciated modern day Christianity a whole lot more after that. Even that old coot Paul of Tsarsus started to look a whole lot better to me.

#264 Steve Miller.

Damn. I spend the better part of an hour writing a post, and then -- just before I post it -- you write one that puts mine to shame. so,

Never mind.

Thanks. Good work.

Edward, the point is this: What part of "they want to kill us" don't you understand? Until the moderate disavow themselfs of that talk, I am not going to trust them.

#264 steve miller/aka space cowboy---you da man!!

HULUGU

Just when I thought you were reasonable

lived through 9/11 right here in nyc and i have a blood dripping jambiya in my mouth evincing my urge to very violently kill these motherfuckers

sorry, but you have to stand in line to play the self-righteous new yorker card (hey, this all lowercase thing is faster...you're on to something here)

i'm sure there are nice cannibals too only that won't make much difference when your in the boiling pot and they're hungary

i'll resist the hungarian joke...you are essentially comparing my fiancee to a cannibal...i'll resist the obvious joke there too...

where does it end? this self-righteous hatred? i will guarantee you that i could read each of ploome's sources (and thanks for the list...some really interesting titles) and still not come away thinking my fiancee or soon-to-be relatives have any connection to any of that shit that happened on 9/11...if Christianity can produce Timothy McVeighs, should we all fight the rise of that religion too?

By the way, I should like to point out that earlier this week I used "kerfuffle," and then today the WSJ used "kerfuffle"
TWICE.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

So LGF has a pretty wide audience.

268 Edward

...if Christianity can produce Timothy McVeighs, should we all fight the rise of that religion too?

Funny, I have not heard any Christian Ministers call for more Timothy McVeighs. And wasn't McVeigh an Agnostic, if not an Atheist? In any event, he certainly did not commit his crime because of some religious calling.

What part of "they want to kill us" don't you understand?

Matt, the part where "they" includes every Muslim, not just the terrorists...

Is Timothy McVeigh CELEBRATED commonly by Christians?

Are there websites PRAISING Timothy? Do we have sermons crying out for more mothers to breed more Timothys?

Edward, you might be posting in the heat of anger. But that canard about "Timothy McVeigh and Christianity" really needs to be dropped.

I will agree that not EVERY instance of death at the hands of a religionist must mean that EVERY co-religionist is equally guilty.

But look at the general tone of the community of the co-religionists - what do they say, how do they sound, what are there spoken and unspoken feelings?

Name for me the number of Christians who praise Timothy McVeigh.

Name for me the number of the followers of Mahomet who praise the Mystic 19 who murdered 3000 people on 9/11.

I will await your answer.