LGF

 RetweetTerror Hurts Indonesian Islamists

Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 3:51:12 pm PST

Here’s an interesting and somewhat encouraging story in the Straits Times about political Islam in Indonesia, that suggests the Islamist parties are having a hard time selling the 230 million people of Indonesia on shari'a law and an Islamic state—and that their cause is further undermined by their reluctance to renounce the thugs and killers in the “military wings” of their parties: Terror hurts Islamist parties in Indonesia.

The growth of political Islam in a nation in a democratic transition has its downsides too. Political Islam comes not with one voice, but several.

While most use the voice of peace, some use the voice of violence or, worse still, resort to violent practices.

While Islamic radicalism represents a tiny minority in the political Islam movement, it is vocal and therefore attracts publicity that often makes it seem much more powerful than it is.

Prior to the devastating bomb attacks at two Bali night clubs in October last year that killed more than 200 people, Islamist parties vehemently refused to acknowledge the role played by the radical Islamist groups.

Islamist politicians, including vice-president Hamzah Haz and the chairman of the People's Consultative Assembly, Mr Amien Rais, even came to the defence of radical groups when rumours initially surfaced of their role in the bomb attacks.

Their support slowly waned once it was established that the attacks were conducted by people associated with JI. Similarly, the Indonesian authorities have tracked subsequent bombings at a McDonald's outlet in Sulawesi in December last year and the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta in August to the same group.

While Islamist parties and their leaders have publicly condemned these terrorist attacks, they have been reluctant to denounce openly the organisations or the individuals who had, at one time or another, been their allies in political Islam.

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55 comments

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1 reaganite  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 1:57:13pm

Slowly, but surely, people are catching on...

While most use the voice of peace, some use the voice of violence or, worse still, resort to violent practices.

There's a long road ahead.

2 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:02:38pm
3 Elizabeth  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:04:12pm

They won't repudiate radical Islam until it is in their best interest to do so. Like Turkey, the Muslims of Indondesia will stick together against the infidels despite all warnings to the contrary. Only when their own terrorists start bombing their own cities to make their political 'statements' will the Indonesian Muslims get tough with their fanatical Islamists.

4 Q  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:16:27pm
While Islamic radicalism represents a tiny minority in the political Islam movement...

Infuriating idiocy. "Islamic radicalism" and "political Islam" are two designations for the same phenomenon, the phenomenon which must be eradicated mercilessly.

5 Ratbert  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:41:54pm

#2 U.S. Kills 46 Iraqi Fighters in the North

If this were the IDF and Jenin, the UN would be screaming "massacre" about now.

6 reaganite  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:44:42pm

#5 Ratbert
DU and Indiotmedia is already spweing that.

7 LightTower  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:46:39pm

#4 Q 11/30/2003 04:16PM PST

"'While Islamic radicalism represents a tiny minority in the political Islam movement...'

Infuriating idiocy. "Islamic radicalism" and "political Islam" are two designations for the same phenomenon, the phenomenon which must be eradicated mercilessly. "

Where does this nonstatistic come from, anyway?

Wishful thinking?

Indoctrination?

Collusion?

Delusion?

Or is the RoP - Massively Aggressive supposed to be the only brand of human being that "cannot tell a lie"? (I suppose this could be based on the fact that Star Trek's Mr. Spock had to cover his head while visiting so many planets. I can't think of any other justification for such a foolish mindset, otherwise.)

And I really would like to know where this myth originated, although it is probably lost in the sands of baloney-spouting--er, time...

8 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:50:24pm

reaganite #6

Are you serious??

9 reaganite  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:53:29pm

#8 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.
It was posted on another thread, it took them only about 30 minutes after the press release for them to start.

10 zulubaby  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:54:43pm
If this were the IDF and Jenin, the UN would be screaming "massacre" about now.

Add to that the AP, Reuters, and every Palestinian on the face of this earth. The families of the IDF soldiers killed in Jenin are still fighting the propaganda about the massacre that wasn't.

11 Engineer  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:57:45pm

#2 U.S. Kills 46 Iraqi Fighters in the North

This is a surprise in that they attacked with a company size unit. On the other hand, the idiots haven’t learned that when they go head-to-head with the US military, they lose big time. Maybe (hope, hope) they are getting desperate and were trying for a big score.

12 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:59:26pm

2 Jefferson

Welcome news. I wonder though if more such thrashings are not being administered to the Islamists but the coalition is not broadcasting it.

Let us see what the reaction of the media is going to be. If the media start to make out that the dead were in fact 'civilians' and make it out be a "Jenin" massacre, then it will vindicate coalition policy to keep such operations, as low key as possible.

13 Kathy K  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 2:59:37pm

#4 There is a difference. Islamic radicalism wants to install shariah by force. Political Islam wants to install shariah by outbreeding and outvoting the 'kufr'. It's more a difference in strategy than it is a difference in goals. But it is a difference.
I do agree both are our enemies but we should take advantage of the fact that they are also enemies of each other to a certain extent.

14 teal marie  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:01:09pm

#11 Engineer
They were trying to score. That convoy was carrying a lot of money. Somebody leaked.

15 Lizardoid Minion #32603  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:03:08pm

#5, #6, #8:

Arab News - "Orgy of Violence in Iraq"
Al-Jazeera - "Innocents killed in Samarra bloodbath"

I can imagine how the DUmmies and Indymediots are reacting. Not to mention Reuters, the NYT, the BBC and the rest of that sorry lot.

16 Lizardoid Minion #32603  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:06:20pm

Them: 46 killed, 18 wounded vs. Us: 5 wounded

And that's in an ambush rather than an open battle. Scott Adams called them "slow learners". I think he's right.

17 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:07:02pm

Engineer #11

Apparently the Fedayeen don’t have an Erin Rommel on their side. Attacking a supply column that has M1A2 tanks is not a very bright move!

18 zulubaby  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:09:22pm

How many US soldiers have been killed this month alone? Is anybody screaming "massacre" about those deaths? I didn't think so.

19 LightTower  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:09:34pm

OT: For some strange reason, the Religion of Womanhood Honoring isn't panning out too well for the poor women stuck in Islamic Iraq. (Yes, of course, *we* expected it, but it appears to be news to MSNBC. At least they noticed that "honor killings" exist. Has slide show and sound - more tech than I can access at the moment, alas.)

[Link: www.msnbc.com...]


"Security in Iraq continues to be a major issue for coalition forces, aid organizations and civilians. But for women, the lawlessness poses additional challenges given the rise in incidents of rape and kidnapping since the fall of Saddam Hussein. Since Iraqi police and coalition forces are stretched thin, women have been forced to make changes - including quitting their jobs or forgoing school - to stay off the streets and away from their potential dangers. Furthermore, in some cases if a woman is a victim of crime, her family will kill her in order to restore honor. Click on the slide show link above, or select large or small pictures to see and hear the stories of several women who were victims or who are finding ways to combat the security problems in Iraq."

20 CAM  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:10:18pm

There's more to this. It's almost as if we were the ones that set them up. For them to actually attack for the first time since the end of the war in such a large force implies they thought they were going to overcome and wipe out the force, and that they had advance info to justify that assumption. The fact that we so successfully destroyed the ambush in such a fashion leads me to believe we set them up. If so, then AMEN, and let's do it again and again.

21 Nancy  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:13:02pm

I am not so sure they aren't just taking a position that it is "public knowledge" of the Islamist terrorists which hurts them politically.

Moslems have been attacking Indonesian Christians, Buddhists and Indonesian Chinese for a long time and as long as the world at large didn't pay much attention to it, they looked the other way. And, as the article mentioned, even supported those who were involved.

Hamzah Haz and Amien Rais are clearly in the same league as PM of Malaysia. They are going to take a public position that "denounces" terrorism but they ARE extremists --ideologically speaking.

Indonesia is very much a culture where they will say what they think is most desireable for the other to hear--to "save face" and be agreeable whether they mean it or not.

22 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:15:15pm

DP # 12
I say let the media present it however they want, just so the message gets out. I believe it will help win the war on terror AND save American lives.

23 Engineer  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:16:41pm

#14 teal marie

They were trying to score. That convoy was carrying a lot of money. Somebody leaked.

In peacetime, the military protects money shipments with enough force that nobody would even think about trying to rob them. In a combat zone, well as you see, they had M1A2 tanks with them.

24 Promethea  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:17:49pm

#12 DP . . .

I read somewhere (here on LGF?) that the military treats the press as if it were the enemy since they have proven themselves as such throughout this war.

I think they would be wrong to tell the press much of anything.

25 Cherokee Bill  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:21:28pm

The al-Jazeera article has a photo of several 'brave' Iraqi men holding a piece of bloodstained clothing from the attack/murder of the Spaniards. They are defiantly screaming slogans and gesturing as if they just won the Super Bowl..for the camera, of course.
Really brave islamists. Do they get 36 virgins for cheering?(sarcasm)

26 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:22:24pm

CAM #20

Very interesting theory. Do you have anything to back it up with? If this is true, this tactic probably won’t work very often.

27 john clark  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:26:16pm

Nice to see FoxNews stressing the body count of the bad guys. I don't even bother to check other outlets as I know the script by heart. If the world sees that we actually are aggressively killing these bastards in large numbers they just may realize we are serious. Good hunting, guys, and keep those numbers going up.

28 Darleen  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:31:00pm

#6

DU is channeling directly from Al-Jihadeeza

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

and the rest of the ilk there are lapping it up

29 Donna V.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:37:12pm

Not totally OT: I was in Starbucks today and found a two day old Chicago Sun-Times on my table. While leafing through it, I saw a story about the mother of one of the terrorists who blew up the synagogue in Turkey. She said she was ashamed of him and wanted to "scream at his grave." A notable contrast to the proud Pali mother of murderers.

(I couldn't find the story online. Did anyone else spot it?)

30 LightTower  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:38:05pm

#16 Lizardoid Minion #32603 11/30/2003 05:06PM PST

"Them: 46 killed, 18 wounded vs. Us: 5 wounded

And that's in an ambush rather than an open battle. Scott Adams called them "slow learners". I think he's right."

The "honor/humiliation/tribal/"kinda-caste"/religio us clique system is what holds these fighters back from a cohesive armed forces.

In the Bible, G-d called their founder, Ishmael, a "wild donkey (or ass) of a man" - but promised to make a nation of him, based on His love for Father Abraham. Apparently that "wild donkey" concept is inherited through the father's line, because that - and a lotta prayer - is what holds them back from massive world victory, in a nutshell [ :^} ] .

And what got Ishmael kicked out of the camp? Mocking the son of the free woman, or playing with him? (That is the Revised Standard Version - revisionist translating, as well? "toying with Isaac" would work, but "playing with" him sounds far too normal. It makes a snob out of Sarah, instead of a "wild ass" out of Ishmael.)

31 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:38:46pm

Some of them can be slow learners. If we're facing a bunch of disparate groups - some are jihadists, some are fedayeen, some are al Qaeda, and others are former Ba'athists, you might get different types of attacks and different results.

al Qaeda has shown itself to be very resourceful, but tend to focus on massive and spectacular attacks - with suicide bombing/martyrdom attacks as the focal point.

The rest are likely to do whatever they can and someone among them thought attacking an armed column was a good idea. Maybe they didn't take enemy recognition courses seriously or they thought that big bad boy at the back of the column with a big bad gun wasn't an M1A2 tank. Maybe they thought because they had the element of surprise that would be enough.

Whoever attacked that column was wrong. Dead wrong.

Now, there's not only 46 dead terrorists/insurgents, but we've gotten 26 others who were both wounded and captured. So, we're talking about 72 terrorist/insurgents out of business. With them, we'll get intel on where they got the guns and ammo, who they're working with, and where they're holding out.

I'd say that's a good day for the US and the coalition.

32 john clark  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:39:38pm

#28 darleen:

Isn't it quaint that DU failed to mention the "innocent civilians" were armed to the teeth and wearing fedayeen uniforms? Innocent my sweet Irish ass.

33 Joel  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:39:56pm

OT - sounds like a "work" accident. Car Swarm Alert!

34 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:40:14pm

22 Jefferson, 24 Promethia

Policy in Gulf War I was to manage the news. In Gulf War II, the policy seems to be 'No news is good news'.

Apologies Promethia, for departing from the thread on 'Geneva sellout..'. Went off to watch the movie 'Brother where art thou'. Good music.

Ive posted a few comments in that thread. I really do hope that bigel stops rattling his missiles. He is not doing any service to the Jewish cause.

35 Joel  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:42:01pm

Bad link. This should be it. Car swarm alert!

36 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:43:53pm

25 Cherokee Bill

I saw that on the TV news here in the UK. The people who were stomping on the dead and holding up bits and pieces, are clearly identifiable. I think there is going to be a Spanish Special Ops soon.

37 zulubaby  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:46:15pm

Darleen (#28)

DU advice:

Look for the real story on the BBC or some other non-U.S. media outlet.

But if that doesn't work out ...

BBC is repeating the US bullshit...
CNN article is weird.
MSNBC has gotten as bad as Faux.

So in desperation they decided to take Al Jazeera's "Innocents killed in Samarra bloodbath" word for it? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

38 Cherokee Bill  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:49:01pm

DP #36
Hopefully someone is building a file of pictures from all the news reports so at some point these 'brave' supporters can be interviewed.

Joel #35
Took a peek at the Car Swarm link...yep Yusef bought the farm but murdered no Jews...does he get a 'booby prize?

39 Darleen  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:54:48pm

#37 Zulubaby

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I vote for up-chucking.

40 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:55:05pm

35 Joel
Your link led to a car that exploded in Gaza

The militant, Yusuf Matar, 25, an activist in the violent Islamic Jihad, was taken to the Rafah hospital, where he died, doctors said.

Aah!! The poor militant.

21 Nancy

One of the dirtiest secrets of the post war world is the continuing murder of Christians around the world. In the Sudan this has crossed over to genocide. And while this is going on, we are inviting Muslims to the West.

Balkanisation or Lebanisation is what is in store for us; Europe for starters and then on to the US and Canada.

41 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 3:56:40pm

zulubaby #37

I definitely recommend laughter. DU is so bad, it deserves to be mocked!


:-)

42 Gazza  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:06:02pm

While Islamist parties and their leaders have publicly condemned these terrorist attacks, they have been reluctant to denounce openly the organisations or the individuals who had, at one time or another, been their allies in political Islam.

Maybe some of the Islamist party members should read
Dr. Muhammad Talal Al-Rasheed's article 'Senseless Violence, Senseless Death.'
[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

43 hcq  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:07:45pm

Look for the real story on the BBC...

You're probably all familiar with Humbert Wolfe's little poem, but somehow it bears repeating:

You cannot hope
to bribe or twist,
thank God! the
British journalist.
But, seeing what
the man will do
unbribed, there's
no occasion to.

44 zulubaby  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:08:29pm

Darleen (#39)

I vote for up-chucking.

LOL!! I first wrote "I don't know whether to laugh or throw up" and changed it to "... or cry". Can't do all three although it's so disturbing one doesn't know what to do!

T. Jefferson (#41)

I definitely recommend laughter. DU is so bad, it deserves to be mocked!

I think so. I'm not in the mood for crying or throwing up right now anyway ;-)

45 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:11:47pm

38 Cherokee Bill

You mean "interviewed", surely.

46 rumcrook  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:14:03pm

john clark they did mention it but those people are so clueless they opined that just wearing black meant nothing, and after reading some of thier posts im surprised just how stupid they are.

heres a quote~~

Just because these guys were dressed in black in the middle of the night, to FOX it means that they were Fedayen fighters. Which is ludicrous but convenient for the propaganda machine to divert attentionaway from the fact that these were plain iraqi's.

one poster said they need to wait to find the truth thru the bbc.

and the title for the thread is Innocents killed in Samarra bloodbath
Monday 01 December 2003

US troops in the Iraqi town of Samarra have admitted to perpetrating a bloodbath, with one occupation spokesman confirming nearly four dozen people were killed

with absolutley no evidence they are all "outraged at our killing 46 "civillians"

they are really unbelievably stupid by any rational standard. how they hate america so much to give benifit of the doubt to fedayeen fighters is beyond me

47 rumcrook  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:16:51pm
Just because these guys were dressed in black in the middle of the night, to FOX it means that they were Fedayen fighters.Which is ludicrous but convenient for the propaganda machine

its ludicrous???

48 Promethea  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:20:14pm

#34 DP . . .

What? You have another life? (LGF sure is addictive ;)
Yes, Bigel is way out of line. Murder is murder, no matter what the provocation.

I too follow the idea that no news is good news. I read somewhere (LGF?) that a lot more is going on in many places than we are hearing about. I sure hope that's true.

Sometimes it's good to threaten enemies with a big stick, but in this war I think it must be especially useful to just eliminate the bad guys without talking about it.

49 DP  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:20:27pm

Oh I'm so glad it is 46 - 0 score for us. On that happy thought, I will go sleep the sleep of the satisfied.

50 Cherokee Bill  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 4:40:25pm

#45 DP
Err..interviewed is a polite way of saying interrogated/investigated.
Long day...worked at home for several hours.
Time to turn in, long day tomorrow. Gotta say a prayer though for the good guys first.

51 Joshua  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 5:18:50pm

Re #29 Donna V.:

Here's the article you were looking for (most likely):

[Link: www.suntimes.com...]

And the key passage:

After DNA tests confirmed Elaltuntas was the driver of the truck that exploded outside the Neve Shalom synagogue, his remains were brought to Bingol and buried in the family cemetery.

His parents told a Turkish newspaper they were ashamed and angry at their son.

''I went to his grave and yelled at him,'' the daily Sabah quoted Elaltuntas' mother, Sabite, as saying. ''I yelled at him that I would never forgive him. How could he do this? Who deceived him? We were going to have a wedding ceremony for him next week.''

''I would rather see my son die a thousand times than see him die like this,'' the father, Sefik, told the newspaper.

52 Joshua  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 5:25:49pm

And following up to #51 ...

The Elaltuntas parents' attitude regarding their son's suicide bombing stands in stark contrast to the suicide bomber's mother quoted in the following entry:

[Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

53 CAM  Sun, Nov 30, 2003 5:26:48pm

#26 T. Jefferson -- V.R.W.C.

Nothing to back it up with other than the story doesn't sound right. In six months, we haven't had a success like this and, unless the press just hasn't reported it, this sounds like the biggest attack force that's come after a convoy.

You're right, it won't work often at all. My guess, if I was unlucky enough to be in the shoes of our brave troops over there, is that we'd be trying to think of a new tactic almost every day, to stay on the offensive, instead of just letting the Baathist scum dream up new offensive approaches everyday.

Those men and women in Iraq are facing the toughest challenge we've faced since Vietnam. In the history of the 20th century, insurgencies have always been the most difficult chore (not necessarily the most costly) for a modern military to effectively deal with.

I have a hunch that although Vietnam is some kind of sick rallying cry for the LLL media, it taught a LOT of lessons to the US military that are already being put to good use in Iraq. Sure, some of the lessons and expertise have faded a way, but insitutionally we're paradoxically stronger, having lived through the hell of Vietnam, than if we were walking into Iraq unfamiliar with such asymmetric warfare.

54 torchy  Mon, Dec 1, 2003 12:02:41am

#14 teal marie-"They were trying to score. That convoy was carrying a lot of money. Somebody leaked."

Interesting hypothesis but (as we discussed)was the "leak" intentional or just poor mission security.If intentional it was a brilliant piece of intelligence work and there may actually have been no money aboard at all.If it was the result of poor security I'm glad our troops are on their toes and suffered no casualties.I hope there wre no Coalition casaulties,my browser is acting iffy and am unable to read the posted article :(

#23 Engineer-"the military protects money shipments with enough force that nobody would even think about trying to rob them"

It is difficult to camoflague an Abrams tank and depending on the terrain the ambush was conducted in it would seem a foolhardy adventure on the surface.If the ambush wasn't finessed by Coalition intelligence it would seem to be the action of desperate men.I wonder if the desperation stemmed from financial need or threats on the combatants and/or their families lives.

55 torchy  Mon, Dec 1, 2003 12:59:09am

Finally got my browser browsing and read the article about the twin ambushes in Samarra (Sunni Triangle). Unfortunately 5 soldiers were injured in attacks,may they have a speedy recovery.It appears that the action took place in an urban area and the attackers thought they could delay the withering response they recieved by attacking from a populated area.Excellent results regardless.


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