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1 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:07:14pm

So I'm hoping now that more folks have picked up the book, we'll get a few more people joining in on the discussion, Syrah.

2 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:15:35pm

I have to admit this book has forced me to come to the realization that many on the right are utopians (which I should have known all along). Its a must read for any serious student of political theory.

3 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:16:13pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

So I'm hoping now that more folks have picked up the book, we'll get a few more people joining in on the discussion, Syrah.

I have noticed that a few have picked it up.

I thought Haakandohls description of it very apt.

That book is a road paved with molasses and strewn with potholes, but each pothole is a cascade of realizations and connections that make you put the book down and think. Really think.

It is not an easy read. It is like being served a plate of far to much good food. It takes time to get through it all.

4 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:17:51pm

re: #2 MrPaulRevere

It wasn't until I read this book that I started to worry about the unconstrained visions of the right. We're well aware of the problem with the unconstrained left, but until this book gave me a better gauge, I didn't see the problems with the right fringe as clearly as I do now.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:20:35pm

re: #3 Syrah

I like how Haak wants to go through it again with a pen and paper. I finally just started marking up my book with my favorite green pen, which is not something I normally do to my books.

6 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:22:08pm

re: #3 Syrah

Oh absolutely. Its one of those books one re-reads every year and finds new insights in every time. I'm used to recreational reading if you will, and this book is work. But then again maybe I've gotten intellectually lazy and its time for a work out.

7 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:22:47pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

It wasn't until I read this book that I started to worry about the unconstrained visions of the right. We're well aware of the problem with the unconstrained left, but until this book gave me a better gauge, I didn't see the problems with the right fringe as clearly as I do now.

I think a part of the problem there is that the descriptors "left" and "right" are very inadequate. There are constrained actors on both the Left and the Right, as there are unconstrained actors on both the Left and the Right.

8 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:26:40pm

re: #7 Syrah

I think a part of the problem there is that the descriptors "left" and "right" are very inadequate. There are constrained actors on both the Left and the Right, as there are unconstrained actors on both the Left and the Right.

You know me- it's a point I was trying to make earlier today, and it's a point I will try to bring up again in the future. "Left-right" doesn't do anything for me anymore. The two visions are just superior, imo.

I have finally made it to the last chapter, which so far might be my favorite.

9 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:26:41pm

It's a shame Dr. Sowell is 78. I hope he's in good health. I fear we shall not see his like again.

10 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:28:00pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I like how Haak wants to go through it again with a pen and paper. I finally just started marking up my book with my favorite green pen, which is not something I normally do to my books.

I will have to do that as well.

I have yet to purchase another copy. I have been enjoying in an odd way going around to all of the small used book shops in the city and asking them if they have a copy.

I know I will have to break down and order another copy online.

I will order it again soon and this time, I will not hesitate to use the highlighters.

11 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:28:08pm

re: #9 MrPaulRevere

I would take one Dr Sowell to a hundred gellers, spencers, or becks.

12 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:31:50pm

re: #6 MrPaulRevere

I enjoy non-fiction because I like learning stuff. I do read some fiction for fun, but I just want to know so much, it's hard to not pick up more non-fiction. But even with all the thinking those books have spurred me to- it doesn't compare to the level of contemplation I've done because of this book. I doubt any book will ever cause me to think and reflect as much as this one has. Revolutionary, imo.

13 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:37:55pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

This Bill O'Reilly vs Keith Olbermann paradigm is not only the death of civil discourse, but the death of any hope that the citizenry will actually think about politics beyond a superficial food fight level.

14 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:43:39pm

re: #13 MrPaulRevere

Early in the debate concerning Intelligent Design "freetoken" made a comment about the lack of civics education and understanding that has really stuck with me. It was one of the reasons I was so thrilled to see haakondahl pick up the book, as he had mentioned he was taught civics (not "government"). People don't stop and think about the larger issues concerning political thought and the roles of government and the people because they don't have the education. I see it even here at times. I mentioned yesterday that I wasn't trying to knock "family values" but that it wasn't the role of government to make us all members of a good family. This isn't contained to just the left- people from all over the political spectrum fail to keep the boundaries clear, much less understand why those boundaries are there.

15 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:19pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I enjoy non-fiction because I like learning stuff. I do read some fiction for fun, but I just want to know so much, it's hard to not pick up more non-fiction. But even with all the thinking those books have spurred me to- it doesn't compare to the level of contemplation I've done because of this book. I doubt any book will ever cause me to think and reflect as much as this one has. Revolutionary, imo.

It is interesting to look at other authors, both fiction and non-fiction, and look at how they see the world. When a person wrights, they reveal themselves and how they perceive the world around them. Carl Sagan, unconstrained. Very likable, but very unconstrained. T.E. Lawrence, Unconstrained, and self-righteously so.

I have a few guesses at authors that I think would fit in the constrained camp, but I will have to read and reread them to be certain. (Herman Melville, Boris Pasternak, Daschel Hammet?)

16 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:20pm

And, actually, the lack of civic understanding has gotten me to thinking a lot as well. Forming a few ideas, but it's a big problem that requires not only correction in our educational institutions, but a re-education of many adults too.

17 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:47:55pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

And, actually, the lack of civic understanding has gotten me to thinking a lot as well. Forming a few ideas, but it's a big problem that requires not only correction in our educational institutions, but a re-education of many adults too.

A very big task.

18 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:54:11pm

Thanks for conversation ladies. I plan on contributing more to it as I get further along in the book.

19 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:55:21pm

re: #18 MrPaulRevere

Thanks for joining us!

20 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 10:59:33pm

re: #17 Syrah

A very big task.

It might be easier after the publication of our revolutionary political report on N2L3. ;)

21 Syrah  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:09:47pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

It might be easier after the publication of our revolutionary political report on N2L3. ;)

There is something to that.

The Narcissism and the Nihilism of the unconstrained is notable.

As for the task of reeducating the great masses, I have my doubts. These things over the ages . . .

I wonder if it is like fluid in a jar, all sloshed one way in one Era and all sloshed back again in another.

There is a certain amount of the Tide in the ebb and flow of history.

22 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:26:20pm

re: #21 Syrah

I think the constrained vision has been ebbing for awhile. It's under attack from not just the unconstrained, but other non-constrained visions as well. It would be nice to see a resurgence in constrained thought, and perhaps that will happen over the next few years. The constrained vision certainly needs all the allies it can get, and hopefully some of them will be articulate enough to help promote the vision.


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 Frank says:

The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions. -- Playboy Interview, April 1993