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1 freetoken  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 6:56:06pm

This essay, which has been posted here before, continues to strengthen my belief that VDH has simply become a sort of cerebral errand-boy for the far right in this country, writing essays with more logical paragraphs and words with more syllables than the average Tea Partier may write.

VDH's essay is not a paradigm of reasonable discussion, as evidenced by his second to last paragraph:

A wiser [1] administration would call in opponents and, in bipartisan fashion, agree to finish the border fence, toughen up employer sanctions, issue a tamper-proof ID, deport alien felons and recent arrivals, and then work out a process through which illegal aliens who are long-standing residents of the United States could reapply for residency and embark on a pathway to eventual citizenship, contingent upon payment of fines, lack of criminality, compliance with current law, and mastery of English. Then legitimate [2] debate could take place over the thorny issue of whether aliens would first need to return home in order to begin going through these legal channels and processes.

[1] He simply declares his own beliefs as "wiser", and then presumes that any agreement between the administration and the "opponents" would come to the same conclusion as VDH. This is just arrogance on the part of VDH.

[2] The ascription of "legitimate" to "debate" here is just arbitrary. In our democracy any "debate" that is in accordance to the law is "legitimate", even if the conclusion is something you don't like.

There are many other examples in this essay where all VDH is doing is writing nonsense, or simply reinforcing the thought patterns of the Tea Partiers.

2 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 6:59:22pm

re: #1 freetoken

Cannot Concur. I happen to think he's right on this. Obama will play dirty and he's giving an advance look at the playbook.

3 Curt  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 7:33:45pm

freetoken;

Once more, you attack the messenger, just so you can discount the message. No comment on why he's wrong other than he's too right leaning for you. After promising a transparent administration, where bills would be posted on line for the citizenry to view before signing, among other broken promises, to both the left and the right, the message is clear: If President Obama deems it for the country, then damns the polls (which he was for when they were/are on his side, and he attacks as racist, troublesome if not), he will cut what ever deals, and have the Democratic leadership of Congress get him the votes, even if it buys favor from one state at he expense of the other.

Not to mention, when the last attempt in DC to get "comprehensive immigration reform" done under President Bush, the loud voices (a majority of the public) were regularly called racist in their views for not wanting to grant head of the line privileges to people who committed felonies to get into the country, let alone a larger than normal portion commuting felonies once they were here, ones of real consequence, too. Add to that we now are seeing public health issues, such as outbreaks of thinks like tuberculosis, because of poor public health south of us, and they bring it here to their detriment and ours.

So, there you have it: You disagree with someone, who actually looks at historical trends and then frames current world situations via that understanding, when we have recently been here before, and we just saw a major piece of legislation not be 1) transparently done, 2) done in a bi-partisan manner, 3) not transmitted on CSPAN and 4) was not even fully written when passed.

So how do you think this next debate will go, now that the path to getting non-published, non-read bills that affect 16% of the total GDP have been "passed" into law, in my opinion, in an illegal manner, as the voting representatives couldn't even get it in it's final form?

Not well, at all, if you subscribe to Congress and the President actually doing their job of making sure the Bills before them are the actual bills that we the people will have to livce with...

4 freetoken  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 7:57:51pm

re: #3 Curt

The onus is on the original writer of the essay to build a logical argument.

5 Curt  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 8:25:15pm

re: #4 freetoken

The onus is on the original writer of the essay to build a logical argument.

My contention is the onus is on you to look at the argument, regardless of where it comes from. If the logic of their position is faulty, then fine, debate on the merit presented, not who said it. I've found it's better to listen to the message, regardless of how it's coming your way, because, there just may be something worth paying attention to in the word stream.

Your words to begin the discussion were:


This essay, which has been posted here before, continues to strengthen my belief that VDH has simply become a sort of cerebral errand-boy for the far right in this country, writing essays with more logical paragraphs and words with more syllables than the average Tea Partier may write.

I did not see you discuss his argument, just you don't like him and you don't like his tone or delivery style. If you think it is up to the writer to meet your needs for any discussion, can I have the same privilege and demand that of you for me? That sure has the strong probability of dampening any discussion, when, using that model, any one person can declare a discussion over, because, subjectively speaking, of course, they don't think they are having the debate handed to them in a manner to which they demand. Truthfully, I'd not like to have a discussion with you under those terms, even if gave me a going in advantage.

Recalling the discussion on Immigration Reform under GWB: Did opponents get treated like VDH is projecting will happen this time around? That's worth considering in what VDH is saying now. Anyone else can say it, but my bet it the voice of the supporters will be to call anyone in opposition, in a wholesale, prejudicial manner, racists.

6 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 9:01:36pm

Once again, Freetoken goes on a personal attack.

This essay, which has been posted here before, continues to strengthen my belief that VDH has simply become a sort of cerebral errand-boy for the far right in this country, writing essays with more logical paragraphs and words with more syllables than the average Tea Partier may write.

If you don't share Freetoken's thinking, you're stupid and/or your motives are suspect.


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