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1 freetoken  May 23, 2010 7:22:12pm

If you’re dealing with the idiots over at one of the stalker blogs, you’d probably get farther faster if you just went down to the bay and dug up a clam and lectured it.

2 lostlakehiker  May 23, 2010 8:36:35pm
He would like to convince you that because the sun gives out broader bands of IR than the ones that CO2 accepts, somehow CO2 does not cause warming.


But all this about IR from the sun is waay beside the point. The energy we receive from the sun is overwhelmingly in the visible spectrum. This part does the lion’s share of the heating. It’s also part of the reason greenhouse gases matter so much. They don’t much filter the incoming radiation, because most of it is at wavelengths to which those gases are transparent. So the energy from the sun gets in without too much loss. [Yes, clouds do reflect a lot.] It’s when the heated daytime surface reradiates to the sky that the greenhouse effect really kicks in.

Imagine you’re in a boat, bailing. But of every bucket you throw overboard, a substantial fraction splashes right back in. Your boat will be wetter than if you didn’t have that splashback. In the same way, the earth cools off slower at night than if it didn’t have CO2 in the atmosphere. And so what if the splashback isn’t 100 percent. Something is still more than nothing.

Common experience can be instructive. The nights grow cool faster in the desert. Why? Because there’s little water vapor between the ground and space. Water vapor is a potent greenhouse gas, and guess what? Humid nights stay hot, arid nights cool faster.

A less common folk observation, but one that millions can testify to, is that at high altitudes, the nights grow cool faster. Fifty degree temperature swing territory once you get to 5000 meters or so. Why? Because when you’re high enough that half the atmosphere is below you, half the CO2 and more than half the water vapor is below you. Less CO2, less greenhouse effect, and sure enough, the heat escapes faster. Less “splashback.”

Here’s one point on which I had to educate myself. There’s enough CO2 in the atmosphere to utterly block transmission of a beam of IR light at a frequency in its absorption frequency. So how does anything get out? It’s a matter of layers. The top layer, the one above which there’s too little CO2 to capture much of anything, is at some temperature or other and it radiates some amount or other. How much it radiates depends on how much it gets from the next lower layer. And so on. The thing becomes a calculus problem. A 19th century physicist named Tyndall worked out the details.

3 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 23, 2010 8:51:18pm

re: #2 lostlakehiker

But all this about IR from the sun is waay beside the point. The energy we receive from the sun is overwhelmingly in the visible spectrum. This part does the lion’s share of the heating. It’s also part of the reason greenhouse gases matter so much. They don’t much filter the incoming radiation, because most of it is at wavelengths to which those gases are transparent. So the energy from the sun gets in without too much loss. [Yes, clouds do reflect a lot.] It’s when the heated daytime surface reradiates to the sky that the greenhouse effect really kicks in.

Imagine you’re in a boat, bailing. But of every bucket you throw overboard, a substantial fraction splashes right back in. Your boat will be wetter than if you didn’t have that splashback. In the same way, the earth cools off slower at night than if it didn’t have CO2 in the atmosphere. And so what if the splashback isn’t 100 percent. Something is still more than nothing.

Common experience can be instructive. The nights grow cool faster in the desert. Why? Because there’s little water vapor between the ground and space. Water vapor is a potent greenhouse gas, and guess what? Humid nights stay hot, arid nights cool faster.

A less common folk observation, but one that millions can testify to, is that at high altitudes, the nights grow cool faster. Fifty degree temperature swing territory once you get to 5000 meters or so. Why? Because when you’re high enough that half the atmosphere is below you, half the CO2 and more than half the water vapor is below you. Less CO2, less greenhouse effect, and sure enough, the heat escapes faster. Less “splashback.”

Here’s one point on which I had to educate myself. There’s enough CO2 in the atmosphere to utterly block transmission of a beam of IR light at a frequency in its absorption frequency. So how does anything get out? It’s a matter of layers. The top layer, the one above which there’s too little CO2 to capture much of anything, is at some temperature or other and it radiates some amount or other. How much it radiates depends on how much it gets from the next lower layer. And so on. The thing becomes a calculus problem. A 19th century physicist named Tyndall worked out the details.

That’s a good comment, but the entire point of CO2 is its behavior in the IR bands.

4 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 23, 2010 8:52:34pm

re: #1 freetoken

If you’re dealing with the idiots over at one of the stalker blogs, you’d probably get farther faster if you just went down to the bay and dug up a clam and lectured it.

Well my point with posting this is that they read here too. It’s good that they see how much of an idiot their fearless science leader really is.

I mean come on, he doesn’t know how a thermos works. Vacuums don’t conduct or convect heat.

5 Bagua  May 23, 2010 9:56:55pm

re: #1 freetoken

If you’re dealing with the idiots over at one of the stalker blogs, you’d probably get farther faster if you just went down to the bay and dug up a clam and lectured it.

Nonsense, lecturing a clam will get you nowhere. Alternatively, the six New England stuffed clams I had for dinner was the perfect way to deal with a clam.

6 freetoken  May 23, 2010 10:38:42pm

re: #5 Bagua

Nonsense, lecturing a clam will get you nowhere.

That’s still more progress than one can get with the stalker zombies.

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 23, 2010 11:50:35pm

re: #5 Bagua

re: #6 freetoken

You are both correct. But there is a third point. Every time he posts something of mine, but not the rebuttal to his crap, he knows he is a fraud and a coward. The ones who read avidly here know it too.

And then there is the fourth point. Educated people get to say a full scale charlatan denier in action and how they are taken apart. Since the frauds are in the ascendant of late, this is an important function.

Smart folks get to ask the serious question: If someone demonstrably doesn’t understand basic thermodynamics and QM, what business do they have presenting themselves as an authority?

If you will, I am putting this silly clam on the half shell.

8 mkelly  May 24, 2010 9:02:04am

The net result is that the Earth is appx. 60 degrees warmer with CO2 in the atmosphere than it would be without it.

LVQ this is incorrect. Using black body radiation formula generally gives 33 deg C as the difference. Your way off. If you meant F then your further off because it would be a 91 deg F change.

The workings: thermal equilibrium for an Earth without an atmosphere:
The sun behaves approximately like a black body of radius rs=6.599 x 105 Km, at a temperature of Ts=5,783 K. The radiative flux at the sun’s surface is given by the expression σTs4, where σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann Constant (5.6704 x 10-8 Wm2K4). Flux refers to radiation per unit area. Thus, at the Earth’s distance from the sun, res=1.496 x 108 Km, this flux is reduced by the factor (rs/res)2. The Earth’s disk has a cross section, acs=πre2, where re is the Earth’s radius (6.378 x 103 Km), and thus intercepts acsσTs4(rs/res)2 radiation from the sun. In order to balance this intercepted radiation, the Earth would warm to a temperature Te, where σTe44πre2 = acsσTs4(rs/res)2. This leads to a solution Te=272 K.

Clouds, which obviously require an atmosphere, and other features of the Earth reflect 31% of the incident radiation. Taking this into account reduces Te to 255 K.

Now 255 K is -18 C and using an average earth temperature of +15 C we have the 33 C for GHG, supposedly.
The above found at Junkscience blog. You can follow this I assume.

Any self respecting physicist would not have made the error in leaving out the temperature designation and would have been able to be more accurate in the GHG temperature increase. I now have to question your credentials. Please be more accurate next time.

By the way how is your cognitive dissonnace doing. How anyone can believe that all atmospheric gases dissipate heat and at the same time believe one gas can add more than it dissipates is beyond me. TTFN.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 24, 2010 12:57:51pm

re: #8 mkelly

60 degrees F then. I converted a change of 33 degree C into F.

You need to be careful about your conversions though.

33 degrees C is not an absolute temperature. It is the raise in temperature. So when you multiply by 9/5 and add 32, you do that to the beginning and the end points of a shift in temperatures. When you subtract the differences, the + 32 cancels.

So lets say in Celsius, I went from 0 degrees C, to 33 degrees C. How much of a change in degrees F is that?

OK. the formula is 9/5x + 32.

9/5 (0) + 32 = 32
9/5 (33) + 32 = 59.4 + 32

So, the change in temperature is the difference of these two numbers.

59.4 + 32 - 32 = 59.4.

The 32’s cancel.

So yes about 60 degrees was correct. Now if only you would see that the arguments you brought from black body radiation, actually prove that CO2 in the atmosphere significantly warms the Earth.

10 mkelly  May 24, 2010 1:33:48pm

Thanks for the correction.

If you wish to accept black body radiation then you also must accept the fact that using Wein’s Law CO2’s absortion line at 15 micro has it absorbing/emitting at 200 K. We live in a world well above 200 K so it cannot warm anything at let’s say 300 K.

11 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 24, 2010 3:56:05pm

re: #10 mkelly

Thanks for the correction.

If you wish to accept black body radiation then you also must accept the fact that using Wein’s Law CO2’s absortion line at 15 micro has it absorbing/emitting at 200 K. We live in a world well above 200 K so it cannot warm anything at let’s say 300 K.


You seem to be confabulating black body temperature with energy and temperature in other systems. This will surely lead to a false conclusion.

If you explain what you are mixing up in some more detail, I will be able to better explain where you are being stupid. As it is now, what you have said is too garbled to say more than you don’t make any sense at all.

12 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 24, 2010 4:11:50pm

re: #10 mkelly

And while we are at it. Someone who can sit and write vitriol for paragraphs about someone not being a respectable physicist over a temperature conversion, when they themselves can’t do the simple algebra to get it correct, ought to take a less haughty tone when discussing science points which are actually a bit more complicated.

The arrogance of deniers always bothers me.

Let’s look at this line from your last post.

By the way how is your cognitive dissonnace doing. How anyone can believe that all atmospheric gases dissipate heat and at the same time believe one gas can add more than it dissipates is beyond me.

OK this is not th first time you have demonstrated that you do not understand the concept of insulation. The only cognitive dissonance there is belongs to your confused mind.

Let’s break this down. The Earth ultimately cools through radiation. That is that energy leaves the system as photons. This concept is key to understanding Wein’s Law by the way. If you are going to quote that, you should get this.

The point here is that light, which would have radiated out to space - and hence cooled the Earth is getting trapped and sent back down to Earth by GHGs. This alters the flow out compared to the flow in. That cases warming.

So I have dealt with your moronic comments for many of posts mr kelly. It is time for you to stop going through denier blogs and wikis with half of a grade school understanding of the physics, and for you to start learning basics.

The basics that are relevant here are:

1. Energy is conserved.

2. If you have more energy coming in as opposed to going out, energy accumulates. This is a direct result of 1.

3. The case at hand here is light energy coming in from the sun and that energy not being able to leave the Earth because of GHGs at the rate it would otherwise. This causes heating.

Number three is something you have personally experienced every time you have put on a coat. The mechanisms are different however the point is the same. Without a coat, you are cooled at a different rate than when you are wearing a coat. As such, you feel warm.

What would happen if you put on a coat during a summer heat wave?

I really do not want to hear any more drivel from you until you can understand these very basic concepts. Attempting to obfuscate the issue with misunderstood references to QM that you do just simply do not comprehend will not help you. You also have no chance of understanding physics like that until you wrap your feeble head around the grade school stuff.

13 Mad Prophet Ludwig  May 24, 2010 4:32:37pm

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

OK this is not th first time you have demonstrated that you do not understand the concept of insulation. The only cognitive dissonance there is belongs to your confused mind.

That sentence is meant as a jab. Your physics is as cognitively consonant as that sentence.


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