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1 5string  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 8:06:07am

So then, we don't have to worry so much any more about Muslims lying to us. I'm so relieved. How about the 19 Muslims who purchased airline tickets in Boston with the supposed intention to fly to LA and other places knowing they were going to commandeer the planes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.? Which of the three "get home free" cards did they use? Were they concerned that they might hurt the ticket agent's feelings if they told them their true intentions?

2 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 8:24:34am

LOL, nice try. Next!

3 Virginia Plain  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 9:43:52am

As someone who believed Robert Spencer's interpretation of the concept of taqiyyah, this is a nice little clarification.

4 5string  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 10:37:05am

There's still the whole question of how any particular Muslim understands the concept and therefore how and if they would modify their behavior in any particular situation accordingly.

Then there's the question of no matter how they interpret the concept - how seriously they might take it. No-one would suggest that all Muslims would follow the explicit Quranic instructions to honor-kill their daughters who speak with or associate with male non-relatives.

It seems illogical to assume that Muslims would all interpret taquiyah the same way or would apply it consistently. It seems there are many variables that can modify its application in any instance. And so this deconstruction and analysis is basically one imam's view of how taquiyah should be interpreted. I suspect this has very little application to the real world.

I strongly suspect that Muslims are like any other human in that regard. Most Muslims who believe that the West is the enemy of Islam and that it is the duty of faithful Muslims is to conquer the West - would not hesitate for a minute to lie or deceive if that would help them reach their goal. That doesn't make them especially evil - just human. There are no noble savages here.

5 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 2:02:56pm

re: #3 Virginia Plain

As someone who believed Robert Spencer's interpretation of the concept of taqiyyah, this is a nice little clarification.

I'm glad you found it helpful; thanks for saying so.

FWIW, I'm aware that just because there are rules doesn't mean people will necessarily obey them, at least not any more than a traffic signal can force someone to actually slow down or stop at an intersection. Nonetheless, I felt a need to set the record straight.

6 erraticsphinx  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 4:29:05pm

Very interesting to read. Thank you for doing the research on this.

7 5string  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 6:04:52pm

You say that only 3 situations permit a Muslim to lie. And then you point to 3 other situations covering Taquiah saying that those are not examples of lying. Yet in those three situations outright lying is described. In the second example of the three you even say that any lie is permissible. Even if Arabic has two different words for it both are cases of deception, telling untruths.

Regarding religion, those who attack and kill Westerners while shouting Alah hu Akbar are claiming their conviction that their religion is in mortal danger from Western values and the people (us) who hold them. Your carefully crafted apology for deception is hardly a serious discussion of the morality of the issue. All you are saying is that if the motive is compelling enough in the opinion of the liar, then lies are OK. I'd be the first to admit that the practice is not unique to Muslims - as most of mankind follows that dictum in practice.

But it's similar to the Islamic moral codes of violence and war of aggression generally - and that's where I draw the line. It basically says that if one is pissed off enough then it's permitted to violently attack and kill your enemy, and their families, and their neighbors - or even your own children or wife - if necessary to redeem your honor. In the case of Jews, it's not just permitted, it's highly encouraged by imams every day.

Every suicide bomber that tries to use deception to hide explosives on their body is using deception - lying - to kill innocent people - and not in self defense. A religion that encourages and apologizes for that is an abomination - as is anyone who tries to justify it.

8 Gus  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 6:10:54pm

re: #7 5string

A religion that encourages and apologizes for that is an abomination - as is anyone who tries to justify it.

Question.

Are you saying that people who try to ues Islam to justify terrorist acts are an abomination or people that generally try to justify the Islamic faith are abomination?

9 5string  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 6:44:00pm

Gus, In the comment I am referring to those who overtly try to use Islam to justify terrorist acts. Deception and homicide are both well ingrained in human nature. I don't single out Arabs individually - either for their identity or their religion in that regard.

However, I believe the most important value of a life-affirming civilization - the value that largely makes life worth living - is the renunciation of aggressive violence that's not in self defense - through the rule of law and moral codes - as applied both to the government and the citizens of a society.

The Quran is full of violations of this principle and its replacement by the permission and encouragement of the use of violent aggression - not in defense against violence - but to maintain the honor of the nation or the person. This is not just a central theme in Islam but is central to Arab culture itself and predates Islam by centuries.

It is silly to imagine that some respected imam's interpretation of a Quranic stricture against (some kinds) of deception (in some situations) would prevent a Muslim from using deception to attack and kill someone who has dishonored him. That's the elephant in the room. Without acknowledging that, the talk about what taquiyah is - and is not - comes close to casting a veneer of respectability and serious moral concern over deadly immoral acts encouraged by Islamic doctrine in which deception is the primary means of success.

10 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 8:14:20pm

re: #6 erraticsphinx

Very interesting to read. Thank you for doing the research on this.

Thanks for taking the time to read it.

11 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 19, 2010 8:45:01pm

re: #8 Gus 802

Upding for effort, but engagement is futile.

12 5string  Tue, Jul 20, 2010 11:14:49am

"Engagement is futile"? That's it? That's all you've got?

Only one person attempted to engage me even a little and I provided as complete an answer as I could. There were no insults, just a set of well developed ideas that contradicted your premise. Perhaps I am wrong and you are right. Where have you tried to show that using evidence, facts and reason?

I think what you meant to say is "engagement is feared".

13 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:41:08am

re: #9 5string

I can make exactly the same 'arguments' you're making-- only about Christians in the Army of God and their use of the Bible.

I have this idea that you'd object then.

14 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:44:16am

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Upding for effort, but engagement is futile.

CL, thank you so very much for this post and for all the work that went into it. I'm sorry so few have commented. I've often been disturbed by the use of supposedly Muslim terms by people who aren't Muslims yet have instantly become 'authorities' on Islam, and I have long suspected that many of them are being used out of context-- when not deliberately lied about.

Thank you for this and for being here. You're performing a valuable service; don't let the haters get you down.
And always remember that many more people are reading LGF than ever comment-- you probably have many more supporters than you ever realise.
Rock on!

15 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:48:11am

re: #9 5string

Gus, In the comment I am referring to those who overtly try to use Islam to justify terrorist acts. Deception and homicide are both well ingrained in human nature. I don't single out Arabs individually - either for their identity or their religion in that regard.

However, I believe the most important value of a life-affirming civilization - the value that largely makes life worth living - is the renunciation of aggressive violence that's not in self defense - through the rule of law and moral codes - as applied both to the government and the citizens of a society.

The Quran is full of violations of this principle and its replacement by the permission and encouragement of the use of violent aggression - not in defense against violence - but to maintain the honor of the nation or the person. This is not just a central theme in Islam but is central to Arab culture itself and predates Islam by centuries.

It is silly to imagine that some respected imam's interpretation of a Quranic stricture against (some kinds) of deception (in some situations) would prevent a Muslim from using deception to attack and kill someone who has dishonored him. That's the elephant in the room. Without acknowledging that, the talk about what taquiyah is - and is not - comes close to casting a veneer of respectability and serious moral concern over deadly immoral acts encouraged by Islamic doctrine in which deception is the primary means of success.


Bottom line, you have lost your mind in your fear. Seriously

16 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:51:44am

re: #15 Stanley Sea

Bottom line, you have lost your mind in your fear. Seriously

Yeah. Consider:

It is silly to imagine that some respected imam's interpretation of a Quranic stricture against (some kinds) of deception (in some situations) would prevent a Muslim from using deception to attack and kill someone who has dishonored him. That's the elephant in the room

The elephant in the room is that this statement applies to every member of every faith who wants to find 'religious' justification for despicable acts.
The rhinocerous in the room is that some people are so damned invested in hating Muslims and Islam that they don't care what actual Muslims and Islam itself says.

I can make identical claims to the ones this guy is making about fringe branches of Christianity or catholicism (hello Mel!) and I'd be equally guilty of assholedom if I did so.

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:52:29am

re: #1 5string

So then, we don't have to worry so much any more about Muslims lying to us. I'm so relieved. How about the 19 Muslims who purchased airline tickets in Boston with the supposed intention to fly to LA and other places knowing they were going to commandeer the planes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.? Which of the three "get home free" cards did they use? Were they concerned that they might hurt the ticket agent's feelings if they told them their true intentions?

Oy.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:52:45am

Very nice piece. Thanks.

19 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 12:59:03am

BTW, I just tweeted this with the #p2 and #tlot hashtags (as well as tcot) to alert all Islamophobes (and LGF haters on the left who want to smear this place as Muslim-bashing) to check it out.

JimmahIceLLC

A Muslim on LGF sets the record straight on Taqiyyah [Link: j.mp...] #LGF #lgfpages #tcot #tlot #p2 Islamophobes &LGFhaters take note!

20 Interesting Times  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 6:25:54am

re: #19 iceweasel

BTW, I just tweeted this with the #p2 and #tlot hashtags (as well as tcot) to alert all Islamophobes (and LGF haters on the left who want to smear this place as Muslim-bashing) to check it out.

Charles had an excellent, excellent comment (though I forgot to bookmark it, d'oh!) about how the blanket-condemnation-of-Islam types play right into the hands of extremists - I mean really, if you use the argument that "OMG Islam is inherently violent and supports killing unbelievers!!1!!!" you are validating the propaganda of every psycho-theocracy and two-bit terrorist cell there is! Wouldn't it be more productive to support moderate imams who provide different interpretations of the Qur’an, instead of saying - as the extremists do - that they don't "speak" for the religion?

21 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 7:08:51am

re: #14 iceweasel

CL, thank you so very much for this post and for all the work that went into it. I'm sorry so few have commented. I've often been disturbed by the use of supposedly Muslim terms by people who aren't Muslims yet have instantly become 'authorities' on Islam, and I have long suspected that many of them are being used out of context-- when not deliberately lied about.

Thank you for this and for being here. You're performing a valuable service; don't let the haters get you down.
And always remember that many more people are reading LGF than ever comment-- you probably have many more supporters than you ever realise.
Rock on!

Thanks for your support, kindness, and sense of fair play, ice. I was wondering when you'd notice this. ;o)

I'm not concerned about the lack of comments. If people are clicking. then they're reading. That's all I wanted.

As for the haters, I expected this to make them twitch and spew. I have no intention of giving them the satisfaction of provoking me with taunts & insults. I've been dealing with that mentality for many, many years now and learned long ago that it's better to just sit back and let these folks reveal the depths of their bigotry and ignorance.

Besides, this wasn't written for them as their minds are made up and nothing I say is going to change them. It's the decent people out there whose brains aren't completely addled by fear and loathing that I wanted to speak to. Those people, hopefully, will understand & consider the points I've tried to make.

22 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 7:13:41am

re: #15 Stanley Sea

I'm going to make a special "booga booga" graphic for you this weekend so you can use it in your posts. ;o)

23 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 7:16:46am

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist

Oy.

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

Very nice piece. Thanks.

Oy, indeed. Heh, I love that word—it epresses soooo much with just two letters!

You're welcome and thank you for reading.

24 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 7:21:54am

re: #19 iceweasel

BTW, I just tweeted this with the #p2 and #tlot hashtags (as well as tcot) to alert all Islamophobes (and LGF haters on the left who want to smear this place as Muslim-bashing) to check it out.

JimmahIceLLC

A Muslim on LGF sets the record straight on Taqiyyah [Link: j.mp...] #LGF #lgfpages #tcot #tlot #p2 Islamophobes &LGFhaters take note!

Oh my, Charles is in for it now. I have no doubt he can handle it though.

Charles, if you're reading, thank you for the platform and for being fair.

25 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 7:32:50am

re: #20 publicityStunted

Charles had an excellent, excellent comment (though I forgot to bookmark it, d'oh!) about how the blanket-condemnation-of-Islam types play right into the hands of extremists - I mean really, if you use the argument that "OMG Islam is inherently violent and supports killing unbelievers!!1!!!" you are validating the propaganda of every psycho-theocracy and two-bit terrorist cell there is! Wouldn't it be more productive to support moderate imams who provide different interpretations of the Qur’an, instead of saying - as the extremists do - that they don't "speak" for the religion?

I didn't forget to bookmark it. ;o) I'm pretty sure this is the one you're thinking of (though there have been plenty of other good, insightful ones):

The thing that's especially irritating about this "Ground Zero mosque" idiocy is that there actually are a few Islamist organizations in the US that deserve criticism for a hidden extremist agenda. Sometimes not even very hidden.

The fools who rant about the Cordoba House -- which is one of the best examples of a real moderate Muslim group I've seen -- are delegitimizing all criticism of the real Islamist groups, and making it very easy to paint anyone who raises objections for REAL reasons as being just as crazy as Spencer and Geller and their followers.

In a weird self-defeating way, the Bigot Brigade actually makes it easier for the real Islamists to avoid detection.

26 5string  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 8:02:51am

I'm short on time today so I'll only answer a few comments.

"The elephant in the room is that this statement applies to every member of every faith who wants to find 'religious' justification for despicable acts."

The reason I joined this discussion is to point out that what people say about their faith (or their own behavior) seldom has anything to do with their actual motives. Such pronouncements are almost always a self-serving justification to make them appear to be an admirable person who's often disgusting behavior is justified by some common standard.

The fact is that Islam - from the mouths of mainstream Islamic clerics throughout all Muslim majority states and nations - commonly and repeatedly advocate the killing of their "enemies" such as Jews not in defense but to "protect their honor". The other fact is that people from those lands do commonly and repeatedly attack and kill those "enemies of Islam" and are lauded and praised by those same imams.

Arguing the arcane points of what some imam says about taquiah is relevant to nothing and is an attempt to cast a veneer or respectability on a disgustingly violent and anti-life theology that was born in the Bedouin "raid" and carries on that tradition today with high explosives in rockets sent across borders and packed into airline luggage - killing innocent people as a means of furthering its power and influence and as instructed to do in Islamic religious texts.

I'm an atheist myself but Christians or Hindus or any other group who did these things would also deserve my condemnation but this thread is about Islam and taquiyah.

"The rhinocerous in the room is that some people are so damned invested in hating Muslims and Islam that they don't care what actual Muslims and Islam itself says."

You're wrong. I do care and think it's interesting as a cultural topic. But what really matters is what Muslims do. I could care less about how some imam interprets some arcane interpretation of his religious texts differently than some other imam might. The fact is that millions of innocent civilians have been killed by Islamists in the last decade alone - each one shouting "Alah hu Akbar" as they end the lives of completely innocent men, women and children. These deaths were not carried out for self defense from attack. They were acts of aggression and intimidation for the control of territory and ethnic cleansing.

That's what I care about. Perhaps their murderers should have taken a moment before exploding their body parts over the area to tell them that Islam is a religion whose followers would only lie if they really had a good reason and in certain situations.

I don't fear Islam or Muslims. I don't hate any individual Arabs or Muslims as I try to give every human being I meet the benefit of the doubt as to their humanistic views. I do hate and despise movements and people who practice and encourage the killing of innocents or engage in aggressive, non-defensive war. I also think that Muslim clerics should spend more time denouncing the actions of Islamists who kill innocents in the name of Islam and less time explaining what situations might permit a Muslim to lie. It's as simple as that.

27 Stanghazi  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 9:01:33am

CL, again, thank you for posting this. Any attempt to open people's minds is worth the effort and is admirable.

28 5string  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 9:48:22am

Granted there are moderate Muslims who do not practice or advocate violence. Unfortunately it is difficult to know with any certainty who is truly moderate and who is practicing their interpretation of taquiyah. I'd suggest that moderate Muslims have an urgent responsibility to purge their religion of those who advocate and practice violence. For some reason I see very little of this going on. Most claims that "real" Muslims are peaceful come from Western leftists and not from Muslims themselves - especially not from Muslims in their majority states. I'd think a true "religion of peace" would be far more concerned about this.

CL - it would have been far more helpful if you had clearly explained how this interpretation of taquiyah intersects with Quranic calls for war against and the subjugation of non-believers and "people of the book". A good analysis would address that foremost because that's what many Westerners (your audience here) want most to understand. By leaving that out you create an apology more than an illumination.

Bottom line CL - and some others here - what's more important to you? Denouncing and condemning in no uncertain terms a movement (not all Muslims certainly) who's followers support a totalitarian racist misogynistic political philosophy that hides under the banner of religion to justify its genocidal acts, a movement that's incontestably responsible for millions of recent innocent deaths and that pledges many millions more if its demands are not met - or making sure that no-one misunderstands the conditions that might permit a Muslim to lie.

I've told you what I think is important and it seems you have done the same.

29 5string  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 9:56:53am

CL - One last thought. I'd like to see a survey of ordinary Muslims from a variety of Muslim majority states - on whether they believe that their religion allows them to deceive their enemies in the service of jihad. Don't you think that would be more relevant to Americans than interviewing an imam who is currently enjoying the freedoms of life in the West.

30 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 21, 2010 3:07:12pm

It's interesting, in a clinical sort of way, to see so much bilious rhetoric and casting of aspersions masquerading as thoughtful discourse about "well developed ideas" that (supposedly) deserve to be answered with "evidence, facts and reason".

I wonder what kind of reaction I would get if I used the same tactics with an total stranger... Oh wait, I wouldn't do that as my parents taught me the rules of common courtesy and advised me to treat others as I'd like them to treat me.

And, look! I even got my first stealth down-ding from tappdancer who, if the LGF search function returned the correct results, has never contributed a single comment, link, or page on any topic.

31 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 24, 2010 5:06:45pm

re: #29 5string

No. An American imam is obviously more relevant to America than an Imam in the middle east.

Seriously, how do you twist your brain to think otherwise?

32 RogueOne  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 3:44:28am

re: #19 iceweasel

BTW, I just tweeted this with the #p2 and #tlot hashtags (as well as tcot) to alert all Islamophobes (and LGF haters on the left who want to smear this place as Muslim-bashing) to check it out.

JimmahIceLLC

A Muslim on LGF sets the record straight on Taqiyyah [Link: j.mp...] #LGF #lgfpages #tcot #tlot #p2 Islamophobes &LGFhaters take note!

Late to the argument but nothing here was set straight. The concept boils down to "thou shalt not lie (disseminate), unless you feel it's necessary". That's a pretty wide open concept.

Here is a better page describing the shia belief:

[Link: www.answering-ansar.org...]


Taqiyyah means 'concealing one's religion or faith due to fear, but in one's heart, the person must believe in the religion s/he is concealing'. In other words it is a form of self-defence that encompasses defending one's life, property, esteem and beliefs. According to Shariah, if a person is caught up between two hardships and one of them is intolerable, then to save one's self from the bigger hardship, one should tolerate the smaller one. Therefore, Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah Allamah Fakhruddin Razi wrote

When faced with two hardships, one should go through the smaller one to save one's self from the bigger one. This is a recognized fact.

Curious lurker, can you tell me how that squares up with your views in this quote:


Okay, so what about taqiyyah? Let’s start with what taqiyyah is NOT. taqiyyah does not mean lying or dissimulation—that is a completely different word in Arabic (kadhaba).
33 RogueOne  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 3:45:22am

re: #31 Obdicut

No. An American imam is obviously more relevant to America than an Imam in the middle east.

Seriously, how do you twist your brain to think otherwise?

So would you say the same about a catholic bishop in NE when comparing to the views in Rome?

34 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 2:36:50pm

re: #32 RogueOne

Curious lurker, can you tell me how that squares up with your views in this quote:

Okay, so what about taqiyyah? Let’s start with what taqiyyah is NOT. taqiyyah does not mean lying or dissimulation—that is a completely different word in Arabic (kadhaba).

The page you referenced is from a Shia' web site. They use different sources of reference than Sunnis, which is why I stated in my original post that I wasn't going to address their definition/use of taqiyyah.

The difference between lying (kadhaba) and taqiyyah is in whether or not one is concealing one's faith. That distinction is conveyed through the use of different Arabic words and their meanings within the context of established (Sunni) Islamic doctrine.

The concept boils down to "thou shalt not lie (disseminate), unless you feel it's necessary". That's a pretty wide open concept.

I believe the word you're looking for is dissimulate, not disseminate. I think I made it quite clear in my post that taqiyyah is most certainly not a "wide open concept" intended for any situation in which a Muslim "feels it's necessary", and is in fact only allowed in very specific circumstances. Again, I'm talking about the Sunni definition—to compare that to the Shia' definition is to compare apples to oranges.

35 5string  Sun, Jul 25, 2010 9:26:53pm

CL, Don't you think you're taking this a bit seriously. We have a difference of views - which is the meat and potatoes of forums like this. It's what makes them potentially interesting. It doesn't need to include antagonism or insults or feigned hurt feelings. I try never to insult people. I'd rather focus on ideas. Insults take things out of the idea zone and into the honor-shame zone where nothing positive ever comes of it for either side.

Just respond to my concerns (which you seem to have avoided for some reason) and I'll try to do the same. It's pretty simple really. Maybe I've missed something important in your post and therefore I'm off base in your opinion. If so feel free to enlighten me. But mostly, please try to perceive where I'm coming from and respond to that.


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