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1 SpaceJesus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 3:38:53pm

i’m not linking to their thread about this on purpose by the way

2 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 5:10:44pm

Give ‘em hell, Jesus.

3 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 5:13:19pm

Oh, and fix the link to jta. Needs to be trimmed on the front end.

4 SpaceJesus  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 5:27:03pm

re: #3 wrenchwench

Oh, and fix the link to jta. Needs to be trimmed on the front end.

ah there we go. thanks

5 Buck  Thu, Aug 5, 2010 5:44:06pm

Did the Swedish newspaper story suggest that Israel might be harvesting organs from Palestinians in the past decade? If so then the Israeli government DID NOT admit to it.

If a story comes out today that the USA is rounding up Japanese Americans and putting them into camps…and the US Government denies it….


Just because it did happen at some point in history, does not mean it is happening now. It doesn’t give the charge today ANY “grain of truth”.

6 Bob Levin  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 1:47:35am

Wait, I think I saw this article the other day in either JPost, Haaretz, or Ynet. There was indeed a criminal gang that was arrested by Israeli authorities. This gang was broken, and they did deal with organs. So there are three players in this story. Jews as a whole—out of play. The Israeli government—which stopped the illegal activity. And there is the gang—guilty, if they are convicted.

As I read your narrative, those distinctions could be drawn a little more clearly.

Anyway, it looks like I have to go look for that article, because I don’t think that the facts in your link correspond to the story that I read.

7 Bob Levin  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:04:56am

Okay, this is from Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/ag-recommends-disciplinary-action-against-forensic-chief-1.108258

You can see that the facts in this article are quite a bit different than the facts in the article you linked to. In my link, there is no organ harvesting, because he was working with cadavers for use in medical research, not getting organs for immediate transplants into live patients. The title of your article is completely misleading, implying that the State of Israel was sanctioning the work of Dr. Hiss, whereas in my link, the State of Israel was stopping his activity.

I was wrong in my previous post, saying that there was criminal activity, because my link says that although organs were taken without written consent from the families, disciplinary action is the appropriate response.

So, I wouldn’t accuse you of anything beyond what the JTA did. And it looks as though the JTA was indeed spreading the blood libel. I can’t say what their intentions were, but it does look like their journalism skills, in this instance, are pretty weak to say the least.

8 Bob Levin  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:11:19am

Okay, this is from Ynet:

Your text to link…

And this gives information on the type of work environment under which the forensic lab had to work. Just adds some background to this story.

9 windsagio  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:15:18am

This story is mostly interesting in that it reflects on how such accusations can be used as a tool of suppression >>

10 Bob Levin  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:27:26am

Sorry to keep researching this. Here is a recent article from Haaretz-

[Link: www.haaretz.com…]Your text to link…

As you can see, the issue of autopsy is highly charged in Israel, and easily drifts into the realm of the blood libel. In this article, the original Swedish reporter states that he did not intend for this to occur, but he would write that when Palestinians are killed, they are taken to the Forensic Institute where autopsies are performed.

I suspect there are procedures that must be followed when someone is killed, and it must also be extremely difficult to get family permission in each instance.

Now, when researching this article, I came across possible links to an organ harvesting ring in New Jersey that was broken up. I’ll have to look at that now.

11 Bob Levin  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:49:45am

I’m going to stop now because the thread of the New Jersey case, which was broken a year ago, and involves rabbis along with about 44 New Jersey elected officials, quickly degenerates, on a Google search, into a swamp of links that puts you knee deep in the blood libel.

Makes me want to look at the JTA. What’s up with them?

12 Buck  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 8:03:49am

To use your term, “Better luck next time” spacejesus.

13 SpaceJesus  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:31:56am

re: #5 Buck

Did the Swedish newspaper story suggest that Israel might be harvesting organs from Palestinians in the past decade? If so then the Israeli government DID NOT admit to it.

If a story comes out today that the USA is rounding up Japanese Americans and putting them into camps…and the US Government denies it…

Just because it did happen at some point in history, does not mean it is happening now. It doesn’t give the charge today ANY “grain of truth”.


READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE

is it really that much to ask for people on the internet to have some modicum, some tiny bit, of understanding of how to read things???

for the love of god, here it is in english.

[Link: www.aftonbladet.se…]

In the summer of 1992, Ehud Olmert, then minister of health, tried to address the issue of organ shortage by launching a big campaign aimed at having the Israeli public register for postmortal organ donation.”

While the campaign was running, young Palestinian men started to disappear from villages in the West Bank and Gaza. After five days Israeli soldiers would bring them back dead, with their bodies ripped open. “

I was in the area at the time, working on a book. On several occasions I was approached by UN staff concerned about the developments. The persons contacting me said that organ theft definitely occurred but that they were prevented from doing anything about it.”

THE REPORTER IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAW AND WHAT WAS GOING ON BACK IN THE 90s YOU TWIT

14 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 10:45:00am

re: #13 SpaceJesus

And do you actually believe that the Israeli government was involved? For certain that was the implication the author of that article wanted to be taken away.

15 SpaceJesus  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 12:07:14pm

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote


I think what the author was building towards by discussing the history and legality of organ trafficking in Israel is to make it more likely that it was being done in the first place. In other words, the fact that Israel did not go after people who trafficked organs (they still might not), and that Israel is well known for being a hub for international organ trafficking, make it more likely that the practice of organ stealing itself exists. This gives more weight to the claims of the Palestinians that their family members are being returned to them with parts missing. It does not imply that Israel had a policy of targeting Palestinians specifically, only that the government has created an environment where organ harvesting and trafficking is no big deal to begin with from the authority’s perspective.

And personally, no. I don’t believe there was a sinister Jewish plot here headed by Olmert himself. The only government involvement I see is a government doctor, working at a government hospital stealing organs for like 10 years. At best the Israeli Health Ministry turned a blind eye to what he was doing, or at the very worst, a few people might have been getting kickbacks from the doctor to ignore it.

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:21:39pm

re: #13 SpaceJesus

Buck is basically a mild troll, wouldn’t really put much stock in what he says or does

And it’s nice reading a diary by you, I’m used to your staccato zings :D

17 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:24:11pm

re: #9 windsagio

This story is mostly interesting in that it reflects on how such accusations can be used as a tool of suppression >>

Quoted for truth.

18 Buck  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 2:27:33pm

re: #16 WindUpBird

Buck is basically a mild troll, wouldn’t really put much stock in what he says or does

And it’s nice reading a diary by you, I’m used to your staccato zings :D

I am not a troll. Not by any definition of that term.

The Original Post DID NOT link to any article with the quotes Space Jesus came up with in a later post.

I have been here for MANY years more than you. The Jun 15, 2004 date is when Charles created user IDs. I was here years before that.

Your name calling and SpaceJesus name calling is unwarranted.

The original article did NOT make it clear that they were talking about something that happened 10 years ago. It made it seem that it was still happening.

19 Interesting Times  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:07:16pm

re: #18 Buck

The original article did NOT make it clear that they were talking about something that happened 10 years ago. It made it seem that it was still happening.

I’m sorry, but that claim of yours contains more BS than all the cattle ranches in Texas. This is the original article SpaceJesus linked to.

Here’s a DIRECT QUOTE from that article:

Israel admitted to harvesting organs from dead bodies in the 1990s.

…and here’s another:

The Israel Defense Forces confirmed to Channel 2 that the organs were used, but stressed that the practice stopped a decade ago.

So please enlighten us as to how you came up with the conclusion you stated above.

20 SpaceJesus  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:34:57pm

re: #18 Buck

you were being a huge turd

21 Buck  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:43:33pm

re: #19 publicityStunted

The original Swedish article… the one “that was run by a Swedish tabloid that investigated the repeated and unanswered claims by Palestinians that dead Palestinians were coming back from IDF autopsies with organs missing from their bodies. “

Were they still today coming back that way?

Now you might say that Israel caught a doctor who was committing a crime in the 90’s.

OR you might write in the present tense:

“We know that Israel has a great need for organs, that there is a vast and illegal trade of organs which has been running for many years now, that the authorities are aware of it and that doctors in managing positions at the big hospitals participate, as well as civil servants at various levels.

We also know that young Palestinian men disappeared, that they were brought back after five days, at night, under tremendous secrecy, stitched back together after having been cut from abdomen to chin.

It’s time to bring clarity to this macabre business, to shed light on what is going on and what has taken place in the territories occupied by Israel since the Intifada began.”

22 Buck  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:45:04pm

re: #20 SpaceJesus

you were being a huge turd

More name calling. Funny how you don’t like it when other people call you names….

In civil conversations, you don’t start with name calling. Well, you seem to, but civilized people don’t.

23 Buck  Fri, Aug 6, 2010 6:55:15pm

re: #19 publicityStunted

So please enlighten us as to how you came up with the conclusion you stated above.

Can we not agree that writing in the same article about current day trade in body organs by some Jews in New Jersey would confuse the issue IF he was NOT trying to say that the practice in Israel was still going on?

I mean there is NO link between the two stories. Unless you think the IDF was in Jersey?

24 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:03:58am

re: #23 Buck


the recent high profile organ-ring trafficking busts, combined with the recent moves by european nations to stop accepting of organs from israel obviously caused him to revisit the claims he heard from palestinians and UN workers back in the 90s.

nowhere does he say the practice is still going on. he speaks in the present tense about how the israeli government still doesn’t crack down on organ illegal organ traffickers and the shortage of organs in israel because those things are still going on. when he mentions firsthand palestinian witnesses alleging organ theft, he uses the past tense.

oh, then he calls for an investigation. how dare he. he doesn’t reach any conclusion of guilt or conclusion of conspiracy, the only conclusion he reaches is that answers be given. if it had turned out to be nothing, then there would be exoneration. unfortunately that wasn’t the case here. good on this reporter for investigating something we wouldnt have found out about otherwise.

25 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:06:00am

re: #22 Buck


cry me a fucking river. you come in here and take a big stupid shit on my thread without reading anything about the story, and expect not to be called an asshole?

26 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:23:07am

re: #23 Buck


the two stories are related. the author is setting the stage to discuss organ trafficking and the fact that it is alive and well in israel. the guys arrested in this all had tons of connections and millions of dollars flowing back and forth from israel. in fact, the rabbi who was busted specifically for organ trafficking, got his kidneys for sale from israel. in fact, the rabbi had been trading in organs for about the same amount of years the doctor in israel had been stealing organs. odd.

israel was (and might still be far as the research i’ve done says) a hub for illegal organ trafficking. the stories are very related.

27 Buck  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:24:34pm

re: #26 SpaceJesus

the two stories are related. the author is setting the stage to discuss organ trafficking and the fact that it is alive and well in israel.

You say so, and that does prove what I am saying.

“nowhere does he say the practice is still going on.” False

In fact in one sentence you say he doesn’t say it is still going on and then int he very next sentence you say ” those things are still going on”

Also he says:

“We know that Israel has a great need for organs, that there is a vast and illegal trade of organs which has been running for many years now, that the authorities are aware of it and that doctors in managing positions at the big hospitals participate, as well as civil servants at various levels.”

All present tense. And the vast conspiracy? All completely unproven.

It might just be one doctor, doing an illegal act.

Look… Space… say it straight out…

Do you think that today there is a vast conspiracy of Jews in Israel (including the IDF, and doctors at the big hospitals) who are taking innocent Palestinians and shooting them just to harvest their organs?

That is what the original article very strongly suggested.

You want to go there? Fine with me. At least it will be honest.


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