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7 comments

1 Decatur Deb  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 1:09:16pm

If there’s anything I hate, it’s rational discussion disguised as good manners.

2 ShaunP  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 1:32:02pm

I agree with you about 99%. I’m withholding the 1% for those cases where a conversation does need to be derailed. I’m talking specifically about no nonsense bigoted concepts masquerading as honest opposition.

IMHO “the US is Israel’s puppet” or “certain races have a greater capacity towards intellect than others” type start to delve into a sort of faux-rationalization that, although honest, is way off the reservation. Please don’t hold it against me for hurling superlatives at said posts…

Honestly though, I can’t point to a single regular poster here that deserves the hollers of “troll” and “bigot” that sometimes come up, so I definitely appreciate your post. Thanks…

3 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 1:40:37pm

re: #2 ShaunP

I agree with you about 99%. I’m withholding the 1% for those cases where a conversation does need to be derailed. I’m talking specifically about no nonsense bigoted concepts masquerading as honest opposition.

IMHO “the US is Israel’s puppet” or “certain races have a greater capacity towards intellect than others” type start to delve into a sort of faux-rationalization that, although honest, is way off the reservation. Please don’t hold it against me for hurling superlatives at said posts…

Honestly though, I can’t point to a single regular poster here that deserves the hollers of “troll” and “bigot” that sometimes come up, so I definitely appreciate your post. Thanks…

Hey, thanks for your comment, I agree with you. And actually, those are the sorts of things I was counting as obviously silly and trollish. But not many of the regulars hold those views, that I’ve been able to tell.

4 windsagio  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 1:49:57pm

First of all, let me say I know all about posting unpopular views on LGF, and getting called awful things for it :p


On the other hand, if somebody uses a logical fallacy or lies, they need to be called on it. You can’t let people get away with saying something untrue just for the sake of peace.

Anyways, since we’re on the subject, I think out and out baiting and direct insults are more of a problem right now :p

5 Curt  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:06:24pm

re: #4 windsagio

On the other hand, if somebody uses a logical fallacy or lies, they need to be called on it. You can’t let people get away with saying something untrue just for the sake of peace.

But you can always engage them in a discussion with relevant facts, links, studies, surveys, books, your (first hand) personal experience, etc and invite them to at least give those things (which have been instrumental in your own understanding) a reasonable look.

If they can’t reply with similar info from their side of the equation or won’t put some honest mental energy into the material, they are generally not willing to have a discussion, but more are here for the sport of stirring the pot.

And on the other hand, if presented with information, you never know when you’ll have your mind changed, as you now have more puzzle pieces you weren’t away of at the outset. Two way streets…they work better when traffic flows both directions, albeit not in a head on pattern.

6 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 6:24:47pm

REINE

GREAT summation

Wind Up Bird
Just curious. What was it that elicited the downding on this?

7 CuriousLurker  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 1:06:47am

Reine, I agree that it’s important that we remember that our audience is much wider than those we’re responding to in a given thread. It’s one of the reasons that I’ve never cut loose and go into full-on attack mode here, no matter how snarky someone is being. At least not yet.

For the record, my opinion on this issue: Gay couples should have all the protections offered to heterosexual couples who legalize their relationship through the institution we know as “marriage”. …

There are those, however, who have various legitimate objections to these issues (and others) When I use the term “legitimate”, I’m talking about objections based on deeply held and sincere beliefs not necessarily objections that you or I think are unreasonable. I do not include in this category those objections that are presented in obviously silly or trollish ways.

As you know, I’ve been refraining from commenting in the active article threads since Tuesday night and will continue to do so for the next 27 days or so. I think this is a good thing because it’s giving me a chance to emotionally step back from some of the current hot button issues, namely Park51/Cordoba House and Prop 8.

IMO, where the Constitution and equal rights for all citizens are concerned, objections based on personal feelings aren’t legitimate, regardless of how deeply held and sincere they are. I’m NOT saying that people don’t have a right to feel however they want and voice their opinions on those feelings—the Constitution grants that right to all equally, and that right there is the crux of the whole thing: opinions vs. the law.

I’m not trying to lecture you, I’m just thinking out loud here:

The 14th Amendment mandates equal protection for everyone, period. No exceptions. As a Muslim, I insist that my freedom of religion be protected. People can hate or fear Islam all they please, and they’re free to say whatever nasty things they want to about it, but when they call for my freedoms to be revoked, then they’re crossing over into bigotry. The 1st Amendment guarantees them the freedom to do that, and it guarantees me the the right to call them out on it.

By the same token, how I feel about marriage from a religious or (any other) personal standpoint is irrelevant, regardless of how sincere and deeply held my beliefs are. I live in America and our Constitution mandates the separation of church & state, period. No exceptions. If I’m going to insist that my freedom of religion be protected, then ethically speaking I have to just as strenuously insist that gay couples also receive equal protection. That’s how it works (for me).

If I were to insist on my own freedoms while calling for others to be denied theirs, then I’d be at best a hypocrite and at worst a bigot. This is one of the few areas where I really don’t see any shades of gray—either every American citizen gets equal protection, or they don’t—no “separate but equal” or any of that nonsense.

If what you want is to end the conversation, make people angry so that you can sit there feeling superior in the confidence of your own opinions, then yeah, go ahead and throw out the accusations and the names.

If what you want is to convince people to reconsider their position, reduce opposition to what you believe is necessary and right, then make your best and most logical argument.

While there are a few people who always cause friction and rarely contribute anything positive, I don’t believe most Lizards want to make people angry so they can feel superior. I think nerves are frazzled over these issues and many are sick & tired of battling the hypocrisy. Everyone has their own personality—some people prefer to just walk away when they feel frustrated, while others let loose with guns blazing. This is normal; it’s the human condition. Surely the lurkers understand that. Just my $0.02.


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