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1 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:11:21pm

I still have questions about the light switch. Is it that relativity best explains the phenomenon? Because my understanding is that relativity doesn't describe any particular force acting on an object, outside of a peculiarity of human consciousness as we interact with the world. Relativity just explains the event better than Newtonian physics.

Do I have that correct?

2 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:15:22pm

re: #1 Bob Levin

I still have questions about the light switch. Is it that relativity best explains the phenomenon? Because my understanding is that relativity doesn't describe any particular force acting on an object, outside of a peculiarity of human consciousness as we interact with the world. Relativity just explains the event better than Newtonian physics.

Do I have that correct?

Respectfully, you don't have that correct at all.

Magnetic fields exist whether or not you are looking at them.

The explanation of the light switch example in detail is that the Faraday effect - or Faraday's Law could not happen unless relativity were true.

Moving charges are in a different reference frame. As a result, they create a magnetic field.

3 freetoken  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:18:14pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

I put in the other page a link to an English translation of Einstein. Perhaps some might find it useful.

The anti-science types just don't want to accept that discoveries like SR don't come about to push some nefarious social agenda, but rather that verified theories really are the best explanations for observations of the world around us.

It's too much for the creationists to accept that the real world isn't what they need it to be.

4 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:19:33pm

re: #3 freetoken

I put in the other page a link to an English translation of Einstein. Perhaps some might find it useful.

The anti-science types just don't want to accept that discoveries like SR don't come about to push some nefarious social agenda, but rather that verified theories really are the best explanations for observations of the world around us.

It's too much for the creationists to accept that the real world isn't what they need it to be.

It is an appalling mass delusion. It is also not without historical precedence of causing tragedy. Cramming people together into a church to pray during the plague comes to mind.

5 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:35:46pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

Then you are saying that the changing reference frame exerts, not a force, but somehow electricity/magnetism is caused by the changing reference frame?

6 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:44:09pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

Then you are saying that the changing reference frame exerts, not a force, but somehow electricity/magnetism is caused by the changing reference frame?

I am hardly the only one saying it. Einstein is said it first.

Moving charges are by definition, moving relative to you. Because they are in a different reference frame, part of their electric fields transform, in your frame, to magnetic fields.

If you were running along side of a moving charge at the same speed, you would only see the electric field and there would be no magnetic field. An extension of this fact is what caused Einstein to come up with SR in the first place.

An electromagnetic wave propagates by a changing magnetic field creating a changing electric field, which in turn creates a changing magnetic field. So young Einstein was bothered at the age of twelve when he first learned this. He imagined running along side the wave. The fields would appear constant. If they were constant, the next step in propagation could not happen. The mathematics of special relativity cleared this up.

That is the answer.

7 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:53:04pm

re: #6 LudwigVanQuixote

Okay, now--and thanks for you time on this--help me make this adjustment.

I walk into a dark room, and I turn on the light. I think that the light switch has completed a connection thus allowing electricity to move very quickly through the wires to the light, which creates friction in the filament, or excites the gasses in the bulb and creates light.

Now, tell me what really happened.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 4:55:53pm

re: #7 Bob Levin

Okay, now--and thanks for you time on this--help me make this adjustment.

I walk into a dark room, and I turn on the light. I think that the light switch has completed a connection thus allowing electricity to move very quickly through the wires to the light, which creates friction in the filament, or excites the gasses in the bulb and creates light.

Now, tell me what really happened.

All of that did happen.

You are missing the part where rotating coils of the generator that powered your light, created that electrical current because special relativity is real.

Look up the Farady's Law.

9 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 5:17:40pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6QL0dvaUeQ&NR=1

Feel free to comment.

10 Pythagoras  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 7:00:48pm

Burke's is one of the best teachers I've ever watched. Where can I buy either "Connections" or "The Day the Universe Changed"?

11 cronus  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 7:05:57pm

I was guessing (hoping?) this was pretty well isolated to Schlafly's delusional domain. But it looks marginally more wide spread than that. Although it also appears the conservative response was swifter and more strident than other anti-science rants from theocratic paleocons.

Conservative Dustup Over Relativity Denialism

Well this is getting interesting.

Over at the website of the conservative magazine First Things, a physicist named Stephen Barr takes on Tom Bethell for his anti-Einsteinianism–which has been published, let us not forget, by another conservative magazine, The American Spectator (at least online).

12 Pythagoras  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 7:06:41pm

Hey LVQ, one of the illustrations I'd like to be able to give on special relativity is that if you spent a year on the International Space Station, when you got back your watch would be slow. I estimate that it's a few minutes but I'm unsure if the gravity difference from the altitude would affect it significantly. I haven't gone through the calculations exactly. Someone must know this from experience.

Ever heard the answer?

13 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 7:10:24pm

re: #10 Pythagoras

Ambrose Videos. They are both reasonably priced. The Day used to be insanely priced, for institutions only. But they are both now available to everyone.

14 freetoken  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 8:36:24pm

re: #10 Pythagoras

Burke's is one of the best teachers I've ever watched. Where can I buy either "Connections" or "The Day the Universe Changed"?

On Amazon. Also, you can buy the DVDs direct from the distributor (a link of which can be found in a comment at the IMDB entry on the latter title). The DVDs are expensive.

15 freetoken  Mon, Aug 9, 2010 8:38:32pm

re: #12 Pythagoras

It's been brought up on various TV science series. I think even the recent Through The Wormhole mentioned the ISS time difference.

16 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 4:39:34am

Yesterday, as a joke, I cited the possibility of fundamentalist luddites denying the harmful effects of radioactive fallout. Apparently it was no joke. As I thought every literate person knew, nuclear explosions and relativity are intimately connected through the famous equation E=MC. Without relativity, there is no such conversion of matter to energy, there are no fission products, and no fallout.
Do the luddites doubt that nuclear bombs will work? At this point, it seems entirely possible that they do. Alternatively, do they think the bombs work but by some still secret principle that scientists have kept under wraps in order to promote the political canard of relativity?
This is dark, dark madness and it will not end well. These people are not just evil; they are satanic, an abomination, a stench in the nostrils of God. They mean to force their will on others. An opposing force is the only thing that will stop them.

17 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 4:42:00am

PIMF
E=MC^2

18 mkelly  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 7:11:12am

re: #7 Bob Levin

Okay, now--and thanks for you time on this--help me make this adjustment.

I walk into a dark room, and I turn on the light. I think that the light switch has completed a connection thus allowing electricity to move very quickly through the wires to the light, which creates friction in the filament, or excites the gasses in the bulb and creates light.

Now, tell me what really happened.

Be aware 1) individual electrons move along the wire very slowly. Shell to shell speed of light but slowly thru wire.2) that "hole flow theory" also explains electric current. 3) And everything you see when you turn on the light is past history. Speed of light time late.

The last one (time late) is why catching a fly ball is such a marvel of the human brains innate capability to do math calculations on the run.

19 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 2:10:42pm

re: #12 Pythagoras

Hey LVQ, one of the illustrations I'd like to be able to give on special relativity is that if you spent a year on the International Space Station, when you got back your watch would be slow. I estimate that it's a few minutes but I'm unsure if the gravity difference from the altitude would affect it significantly. I haven't gone through the calculations exactly. Someone must know this from experience.

Ever heard the answer?

That is actually a general relativistic effect as much as a special relative istic effect.

The calculation is straight forward, but a pain in the bottom. I really don't know what the lag is off hand.

20 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 2:11:51pm

re: #18 mkelly

Be aware 1) individual electrons move along the wire very slowly. Shell to shell speed of light but slowly thru wire.2) that "hole flow theory" also explains electric current. 3) And everything you see when you turn on the light is past history. Speed of light time late.

The last one (time late) is why catching a fly ball is such a marvel of the human brains innate capability to do math calculations on the run.

And yet, the magnetic field is relativistically shifted electric field.

Are you honestly going to try to argue Maxwell's equations here?

21 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 2:12:35pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6QL0dvaUeQ&NR= 1

Feel free to comment.

I adore James Burke.

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 10, 2010 2:41:03pm

For those who are interested here is the first lecture, here are seven given by Leo Susskind, at Stanford, on Special Relativity.

This is the real deal.


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