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1 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 5:58:29pm

I notice he stuck to the legality...the "right" to build it.
Not many really argue with that. The primary argument has been whether it's the right thing to do.

2 tnguitarist  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:12:35pm

re: #1 captdiggs

I notice he stuck to the legality...the "right" to build it.
Not many really argue with that. The primary argument has been whether it's the right thing to do.

What the hell does that even mean? Once again, the Islamic religion did not attack us; radicals did. Muslims were killed in the attacks. Why is this so hard to understand?

3 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:53:45pm

re: #1 captdiggs

I notice he stuck to the legality...the "right" to build it.
Not many really argue with that. The primary argument has been whether it's the right thing to do.

The "right" thing to do? By whose measure?

I'd like to turn the question around. Is it the "right" thing to do to protest so loudly about this particular project, when there would most likely be absolutely no protest whatsoever over a project by anybody else?

I trust our way of life, and our Constitutional protections. We cannot make exceptions; once that way has been paved, the next "exception", the next thing to go by the wayside, may be YOU or something you have an interest in.

4 jaunte  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:55:24pm

re: #3 reine.de.tout

I trust our way of life, and our Constitutional protections. We cannot make exceptions; once that way has been paved, the next "exception", the next thing to go by the wayside, may be YOU or something you have an interest in.


There you go again, making the salient point!

5 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:25:53pm

re: #3 reine.de.tout

Is it the "right" thing to do to protest so loudly about this particular project, when there would most likely be absolutely no protest whatsoever over a project by anybody else?

"right" in this case is always going to be subjective.
But the argument "no protest whatsoever over a project by anybody else" ignores the facts surrounding this particular location.
The WTC crater was not caused by *radical* Quakers, Jews, Catholics, Liquor store owners, pre-school operators, pharmacists, etc.

Again, no one is really challenging it on constitutional grounds.
Most ( per CNN's poll yesterday, 70% of the nation) object to the location and only the location because of the history of the site. Had the proponents of the mosque/Islamic center chosen a site one mile north, no one would care and this would not be an issue at all.

If you care to look at the news, there is a similar problem with a Casino operator wanting to build a casino next to the Gettysburg battlefield that is running into nearly the same opposition locally. It's not based on hatred of gamblers.

6 Lidane  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:37:06pm

re: #5 captdiggs

Had the proponents of the mosque/Islamic center chosen a site one mile north, no one would care and this would not be an issue at all.

Bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Just look at all the whackjobs protesting mosques in Tennessee, California, Wisconsin and other parts of the country that have nothing to do with the WTC.

It's anti-Islamic bigotry, nothing else.

7 qabal  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:38:27pm

I would be a lot more willing to believe that this was simply a disagreement about how close the cultural center should be, if there weren't protests around the country for Mosques being built, which exposes this ground zero sentiment for what it is, a nice fat strain of xenophobia in American society making its presence felt.

And.. in fact, there's already an ACTUAL MOSQUE 0.7 miles away from Ground Zero. LESS THAN ONE MILE. Here you go:

[Link: www.masjidmanhattan.com...]

[Link: maps.google.com...]

So, tell me, why aren't we protesting this actual, swear-to-Allah, mosque, that's less than a mile from ground zero? Should it be torn down for being too close to Ground Zero, with the faithful evicted?

8 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:48:04pm

re: #6 Lidane

anti-Islamic bigotry

I think that's way overplayed. But it is a good way to stifle legitimate disagreement over the location.
It's a lot like calling all criticism of Obama, race based.

BTW, did any of you know that there was a church destroyed on 9/11.
A small Greek Orthodox Church was crushed by one of the Towers.
It's reconstruction has been blocked and waylaid by bureaucratic red tape for 9 years now.
anti-Greek Orthodox bigotry?

9 Lidane  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:54:33pm

re: #8 captdiggs

Let me guess-- those are the new stalker blog talking points? You parrot them well.

It's not about the location at all. There's an ACTUAL mosque even closer to the WTC than this place would be, and no one is talking about that in all their OMGWTFOUTRAGE over Park51. I wonder why. Maybe because pointing that out would ruin the wingnut narrative about "sacrilege" at Ground Zero.

It's just bigotry and fear-mongering. Period.

10 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 7:58:12pm

re: #9 Lidane

There's an ACTUAL mosque even closer to the WTC than this place would be, and no one is talking about that

Which would tend to disprove all this "anti-muslim" bigotry allegations.
Has anyone suggested demolishing the existing one?

11 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:01:33pm

re: #10 captdiggs

Which would tend to disprove all this "anti-muslim" bigotry allegations.
Has anyone suggested demolishing the existing one?

Not yet. But give the wingnuts some time. They're sure to think of it.

12 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:07:55pm

There's also a strip club within 2 blocks of ground zero. Nobody seems to think that demeans the sanctity of the site or anything.

13 Lidane  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:11:34pm

re: #10 captdiggs

Which would tend to disprove all this "anti-muslim" bigotry allegations.

Hardly. It's ignored because it's inconvenient, nothing more.

Pointing out the actual mosque already closer to the WTC than Park51 would interfere with the Faux News/Palin/Gingrich/wingnut narrative about a "Ground Zero mosque", and all the fear and hate that is being exploited so that the right-wing nutbars can fool the useful idiots and rubes who keep sending them money. Charles even posted about some asshole threatening to use eminent domain to find a way to block Park51. That's not anything but fear and bigotry.

It's not about the location. It never has been. It's about anti-Muslim sentiment being exploited to keep people ignorant and afraid, and people keep falling for it.

14 captdiggs  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:18:43pm

re: #13 Lidane

Well, per CNN some 70% of the country sees a problem with the location.
If you choose to believe that it's all based on "bigotry", that's your prerogative.
Me...I object to a casino next to the Gettysburg Battlefield....but I don't have a problem if the gamblers want to go to Atlantic City.

15 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:19:40pm

re: #5 captdiggs

"right" in this case is always going to be subjective.
But the argument "no protest whatsoever over a project by anybody else" ignores the facts surrounding this particular location.
The WTC crater was not caused by *radical* Quakers, Jews, Catholics, Liquor store owners, pre-school operators, pharmacists, etc.

Again, no one is really challenging it on constitutional grounds.
Most ( per CNN's poll yesterday, 70% of the nation) object to the location and only the location because of the history of the site. Had the proponents of the mosque/Islamic center chosen a site one mile north, no one would care and this would not be an issue at all.

If you care to look at the news, there is a similar problem with a Casino operator wanting to build a casino next to the Gettysburg battlefield that is running into nearly the same opposition locally. It's not based on hatred of gamblers.

CaptDiggs -
Please. Take a deep breath.

There is some opposition to this project. It has been voiced. It has been decided to have zero value in terms of whether this project proceeds. Everybody has had their constitutionally protected say. Why, then, the continued overdone outrage?

It has everything to do with wanting to dictate terms of life, things that we take for granted as protected for us by our constitution, to one particular group of people.

That's bigotry, plain and simple.

That's not how we are.

A couple of interesting comments on twitter by "IsraeliSoldier":

IsraeliSoldier
"'I believe that Muslims have same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country"' - Obama. I agree!

and

IsraeliSoldier
If us Jews can deal with a mosque on top of our holiest site - you all can deal with a mosque near ground zero

The whole outrage is a manufactured, play to people's fears outrage over something we should not be outraged about.

16 Lidane  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:23:00pm

re: #14 captdiggs

Well, per CNN some 70% of the country sees a problem with the location.

Because they've fallen for the idiotic narrative set by assholes like Palin, Gingrich, and Faux News. That's why.

Anti-Muslim sentiment and emotions over the 9/11 attacks are being exploited by people who damn well should know better, and it's all bled from just the "Ground Zero mosque" to mosques in other states. That's not a coincidence. It's the spreading of fear and bigotry, and it needs to stop.

17 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:29:17pm

re: #4 jaunte

There you go again, making the salient point!

:-)

18 SpaceJesus  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 8:29:30pm

re: #14 captdiggs


this statement of yours makes absolutely no logical sense in the context of what we are talking about

19 MichaelJ  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:02:07pm

re: #14 captdiggs

Polls on CNN can't be trusted as a true gauge of national sentiment. There are far too many intelligent people that simply do not involve themselves with TV in any way. On the other hand, there are also far too many willing followers of the sound byte version of every news story and many react to the words "Ground Zero mosque" without the slightest grasp of the full story.

20 dragonfire1981  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 9:09:26pm

Are the right wing blogs going crazy yet? Surely this is enough proof for them that Obama is indeed a Muslim.

21 simoom  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 10:51:08pm

Here's the full transcript:
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

It's a strong, unequivocal statement.

Most of the relevant bits:

...
These events are also an affirmation of who we are as Americans. Our Founders understood that the best way to honor the place of faith in the lives of our people was to protect their freedom to practice religion. In the Virginia Act for Establishing Religion Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote that “all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion.” The First Amendment of our Constitution established the freedom of religion as the law of the land. And that right has been upheld ever since.

Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose – including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious – a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in contrast to the religious conflict that persists around the globe.

That is not to say that religion is without controversy. Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities – particularly in New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who have led our response to that attack – from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us always remember who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. Our enemies respect no freedom of religion. Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam – it is a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders – these are terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion – and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

That is who we are fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms – it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race or religion; wealth or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect to those who are different from us – a way of life that stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.
...
For in the end, we remain “one nation, under God, indivisible.” And we can only achieve “liberty and justice for all” if we live by that one rule at the heart of every religion, including Islam—that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I'm glad he mentioned that the rabble rousing hasn't been limited to Park51.

22 bubba zanetti  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:16:59pm

re: #7 qabal

And.. in fact, there's already an ACTUAL MOSQUE 0.7 miles away from Ground Zero. LESS THAN ONE MILE. Here you go:

AND... The current Park 51 building is already being used as a mosque too!

Dude, it’s just a mosque.

23 simoom  Fri, Aug 13, 2010 11:35:39pm

Here's the full video at whitehouse.gov:

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

24 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 4:10:23am

If we change what we do as Americans overmuch then the terrorists have indeed won by mutating our way of life. The hate mongers and fear sowers play the terrorist's game as their pawns, and that is why I support the mosque, and why I wouldn't have issue even with a mosque in the newly rebuilt towers. We have freedom of religion and we do not fear here.

25 cajinmonk  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 1:45:52pm

Thanks #15 reine.de.tout for pointing to:

A couple of interesting comments on twitter by "IsraeliSoldier":
IsraeliSoldier
If us Jews can deal with a mosque on top of our holiest site - you all can deal with a mosque near ground zero.

That mosque with the golden roof in Jerusalem is "dealt" with.
That little intifada thing (1987, 2000, ...) is "dealt" with.
We can "deal" with this mosque also.
But why do we have to? Oh, yeah, we don't want to offend "them".
Who, again, is "them"?
I hope "them" it is not the ones who want to destroy us.

26 reine.de.tout  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 2:55:05pm

re: #25 cajinmonk

Thanks #15 reine.de.tout for pointing to:

A couple of interesting comments on twitter by "IsraeliSoldier":
IsraeliSoldier
If us Jews can deal with a mosque on top of our holiest site - you all can deal with a mosque near ground zero.

That mosque with the golden roof in Jerusalem is "dealt" with.
That little intifada thing (1987, 2000, ...) is "dealt" with.
We can "deal" with this mosque also.
But why do we have to? Oh, yeah, we don't want to offend "them".
Who, again, is "them"?
I hope "them" it is not the ones who want to destroy us.

I trust that our Government and security agencies will protect us from anyone who wishes to destroy us, Muslim or not.

Subverting our constitutional principles does not add to our protections; it weakens protection for all.

27 Vambo  Sat, Aug 14, 2010 7:49:09pm

THEM, man... THEM!


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