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1 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 2:31:35pm

This is tragic, and unfortunately expected. This always happens as plans for talks are released and begin to unfold. The only thing missing right now is some type of Causus belli. So, there might be more tragedy on the near horizon.

Whether these talks are successful is almost beside the point, because Israel, privately, has made great strides in commerce with the Saudis and the other oil rich Arab countries. If trade and economic cooperation begins, under the table or on top of the table, this would be a very powerful step.

2 jordash1212  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 4:45:18pm

re: #1 Bob Levin

Yes, I agree with you totally. Equally as important for Gazans to see the results of economic progress in the other territories. I believe this will spur discontent and bring Hamas to start being more responsible (and open to negotiation) or face a new regime.

3 amphibian  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 5:01:50pm


4 jordash1212  Tue, Aug 31, 2010 6:09:31pm

re: #3 amphibian

Yes, a mishandling. An elite army should act like one; the Israeli army did not act like an elite army during that incident.

5 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 12:15:25am

re: #4 jordash1212

I was under the impression that the video and pictures spoke loudly enough. There was an attempt to run a blockade by several ships. On one of the ships, a deadly attack was planned for the IDF.

The soldiers boarded the ship, the attack began, and the other soldiers rescued their colleagues who were in dire circumstances.

In hindsight, should they have treated all of the boats as potentially hostile? If so, what do you do? I’m not a military person—I really don’t know what the correct procedure is. I’m waiting to see what adjustments the IDF makes in order to find out.

6 jordash1212  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 7:56:56am

I’ll save you the wait. The IDF will make sure that all approaching vessels are surveilled before troops board to verify no threats await and to avoid any repeats of the flotilla raid. In retrospect, I do not expect Israel to treat every incoming vessel as a threat, and surely I do not think the IDF had any intentions of using force on the boat.

But that does not remove the blame from Israel. They have one of the world’s most advanced armies, formidable air forces, and an astute intelligence community. They were entirely capable of surveilling the boat. In a perfect world Israel would not be condemned. In a perfect world, Israel would be held to the same standards as the US or another democracy. But we do not live in that world, and where there is an option to avoid violence, Israel must explore it. They must constantly be above and beyond the expected reaction so as not to provoke anymore international protest or UN condemnation. I love Israel with all my heart and I know in the end they did what they had to do, but I know they can do better. They must do better.

7 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 1, 2010 11:18:52am

On the one hand I agree with you—the Israeli government report would agree with you.

It would be nice to be prescient, could come in real handy. But that’s part of the psychological game that is going on, holding Israelis and Jews to this standard of behavior that no other nation or folks need to adhere.

There is no state of being that will make the double-standards and hatred stop. Let me amend that, there is such a state, but as evidenced by Jewish history, it’s very hard to achieve. But it’s do-able.

So there are two states of consciousness/standards—one is dictated by others, by the UN, for instance. If we strive towards that—losing proposition. The other state of consciousness and standards comes from something that would be found inwardly, and that’s dictated by our history and identity. If we strive towards the former, we will never achieve the latter, and if we strive towards the latter, we will never satisfy the advocates of the former.

If that doesn’t quite make sense, welcome to Jewish 101.

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