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1 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 11:58:30am

Someone doesn't quite understand the essential concept behind the Bill of Rights, does he now?

Feh.

2 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 12:07:19pm

Apparently not.

OT: I totally love how expressive Yiddish words are. I think I'm going to permanently add oy and feh to my vocabulary (along with schmuck, putz and schlep).

3 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 12:10:55pm

Just as the Vatican's incredibly tepid response to the problems of priestly pedophilia is a mystery to many folks, so was (at the time) what seemed to be lack of US Muslim outrage at the 9/11 attacks.

Looking back now, given the distance of time, I suspect many US Muslims were as confused and horrified by these attacks as any of us were, and I suspect many simply could not relate to the attackers as fellow Muslims. Just as Catholics today go about expressing their pedophilia outrage toward each other and at local church officials (rather than publicly in the media), I would imagine US Muslims did something similar after 9/11.

So, Martin Peretz, it's time to give up that tired meme. Apart from the lone wolf or small group of young Muslim men angry with America, I've seen no evidence over the past several years of any anti-American or pro-terrorism sentiment coming from the US Islamic community. Doesn't that "count" for something?

4 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 12:44:56pm

Marty Peretz, the Newt Gingrich of the American left.

5 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 12:48:17pm

re: #3 reine.de.tout

I love your posts, Reine, always a nice balance of reason and passion.

6 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 1:38:47pm

re: #3 reine.de.tout

You hit the nail on the head, sister.

There were (and still are) feelings of collective guilt. What I mean by that is that we American Muslims knew we weren't responsible for what happened and there's nothing we could have done to stop it, but we also knew that we'd face guilt by association in many people's minds.

The emotions were horrible during that time.... shock that such a thing happened to us (collectively, as Americans), fury & horror over the brutal slaughter of so many innocents, and additional shame & anger that Muslims would commit such an atrocity... that was topped off with feelings of trepidation, sadness, and even a little bit of resentment at the certain knowledge that our grief & anger would be considered suspect (at best), or dismissed as diabolically insincere (at worst) by a significant portion of our fellow Americans. IOW, we knew would not be allowed to mourn as Americans.

It was paralyzing. I, for one, didn't leave my apartment for about 6 weeks. Not because I was afraid of any physical threat, but because I simply couldn't cope with all the emotions AND risk the possibility of some fellow American on a bus or subway looking at me with disgust or fear or hate.

I'm pretty sure most American Muslims felt the same, or close to it. It didn't help that there wasn't a single person or organization that who could act as a representative for American Muslims. There still isn't really, but I think the various individuals & groups who are out there are more organized now and understand that they not only need to speak out immediately, but they also need to better educate & police their communities.

7 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 2:22:47pm

re: #5 Jeff In Ohio

I love your posts, Reine, always a nice balance of reason and passion.

*blush*
Merci!

8 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 2:26:58pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

You hit the nail on the head, sister.

There were (and still are) feelings of collective guilt. What I mean by that is that we American Muslims knew we weren't responsible for what happened and there's nothing we could have done to stop it, but we also knew that we'd face guilt by association in many people's minds.

The emotions were horrible during that time... shock that such a thing happened to us (collectively, as Americans), fury & horror over the brutal slaughter of so many innocents, and additional shame & anger that Muslims would commit such an atrocity... that was topped off with feelings of trepidation, sadness, and even a little bit of resentment at the certain knowledge that our grief & anger would be considered suspect (at best), or dismissed as diabolically insincere (at worst) by a significant portion of our fellow Americans. IOW, we knew would not be allowed to mourn as Americans.

It was paralyzing. I, for one, didn't leave my apartment for about 6 weeks. Not because I was afraid of any physical threat, but because I simply couldn't cope with all the emotions AND risk the possibility of some fellow American on a bus or subway looking at me with disgust or fear or hate.

I'm pretty sure most American Muslims felt the same, or close to it. It didn't help that there wasn't a single person or organization that who could act as a representative for American Muslims. There still isn't really, but I think the various individuals & groups who are out there are more organized now and understand that they not only need to speak out immediately, but they also need to better educate & police their communities.

Yes, as I thought about it over time, I came to the conclusion that this is what happened, and why we didn't hear much from the Islamic "community".

Also:

. . . certain knowledge that our grief & anger would be considered suspect (at best), or dismissed as diabolically insincere (at worst) by a significant portion of our fellow Americans. IOW, we knew would not be allowed to mourn as Americans.

I saw this happen.
I see it happen now, with the Park51 project and your own attempts to interact and educate folks.

{CL}
I have trust in the American people that things will eventually settle down. But it will indeed be an uphill battle - I hope it's a short battle, rather than a long one.

9 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 2:27:58pm

And "community" is in quotes above, as a nod to CL's statement:

It didn't help that there wasn't a single person or organization that who could act as a representative for American Muslims.


Nothing more.

10 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 5:00:37pm

re: #8 reine.de.tout

I have trust in the American people that things will eventually settle down. But it will indeed be an uphill battle - I hope it's a short battle, rather than a long one.

Same here. A big thanks & hug to you {reine} and all the {others} who have found it within your hearts to show mercy, compassion and understanding despite all the turmoil. Your quiet courage & steadfastness makes me feel extra proud & blessed to be in your company, and it gives me hope for our future.

And once again thanks to our host {Charles} who has helped transform LGF into a place where real thinking, dialog and healing occurs.

11 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 5:09:38pm

Yes, a big thanks to Charles.

But I'm blushing here - it's wonderful to have you here, your presence (and patience) elevates the place, adds to the wonderful diversity.

12 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 6:30:47pm

Good grief! You don't have to be "worthy" of First Amendment rights, you just have to be here. That is the whole point. What is Peretz wanting to do? If Muslims are not worthy, a whole host of other ideologies could be similarly proscribed. Every schoolchild should see the slippery slope with this kind of "reasoning," yet millions of American adults apparently do not.

13 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:28:51pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

--The enemies of a group often count on "collective guilt" to paralyze the group.

--Sometimes the lack of a central authority, as with American Muslims and American Jews, works for the group, sometimes against the group. OTOH, having a central authority, while seen as advantageous, can work against the group which has it; case in point, the tepid response of the Catholic church to the pedophilia scandal and in some cases its working against those who had been hurt and/or sought to reveal the goings-on.

--For once, I think I can speak for at least the majority here when I say that I'm glad you're here. We need your perspective.

re: #12 Shiplord Kirel

Good grief! You don't have to be "worthy" of First Amendment rights, you just have to be here. That is the whole point. What is Peretz wanting to do? If Muslims are not worthy, a whole host of other ideologies could be similarly proscribed. Every schoolchild should see the slippery slope with this kind of "reasoning," yet millions of American adults apparently do not.

Amen. They are rights, not privileges. If Muslims are denied their rights in this country, guess which religious group will be next? Hint--It won't be the UMC, the RCC, the UCC, the SBC, or the Assemblies of God.

14 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 7:20:04pm

re: #13 ClaudeMonet

Very true regarding central authority.

For once, I think I can speak for at least the majority here when I say that I'm glad you're here. We need your perspective.

Thank you for the kind words. *blush*

I'm glad to be here. I need you guys' perspective too. I could easily confine myself to only my Muslim friends and Muslims blogs & forums, but i don't necessarily think that would be a wise decision. It would be too easy, y'know? Much as I love being around other Muslims and appreciate the moral support they provide, I think it can be dangerous to become emotionally/intellectually removed from my own society.

I also fear becoming complacent and/or smugly self-righteous as I believe that's the kiss of death to any sort of spiritual evolution. Besides I never "fit the mold" before I was Muslim, so I'm not likely to now. I'm way too curious and enamored of diversity for that.

Amen. They are rights, not privileges. If Muslims are denied their rights in this country, guess which religious group will be next?

Amen again. I find it more than a little surprising that some Jewish public figures are taking the sides they are. I keep thinking SURELY they must know that they'd be next in the cross-hairs. Ditto for atheists. Catholics might be safe, but I wouldn't count on based on history.

Gosh, I am so beat. I've gotta drag myself outta here pronto. If anyone's watching the spy... *waves g'nite*


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