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17 comments

1 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 8:54:00am

There are very few things stupider than zero-tolerance laws. Might as well call them "Let's avoid common sense at all costs" laws.

2 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:13:07am

re: #1 Obdicut

There are very few things stupider than zero-tolerance laws. Might as well call them "Let's avoid common sense at all costs" laws.

I'm not a fan of zero tolerance, but parents should understand what that means. This child should have been told under no circumstances can you bring that toy to school. And if it means checking his pack every morning, than so be it. Not a bad idea anyway.

There has been a terrible violent probem in South Florida schools in the last 5-10 years where children have been killed, lit on fire and beaten to the point of permanent disability, even at his age. The schools mean business.

I have zero sympathy for these parents.

3 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:13:29am

re: #1 Obdicut

There are very few things stupider than zero-tolerance laws. Might as well call them "Let's avoid common sense at all costs" laws.

Definitely, and the examples are too many to list. One 13 year old boy was once suspended for sketching a gun. Another was almost expelled after they found a pen knife. I remember as a child that having a pen knife was rather common and almost a point of pride. As was drawing every piece of military hardware imaginable.

So here we have a child whose life is being destroyed for simply bringing a clear plastic toy gun which was never removed from his back pack. The message from society to this child is that he is a "delinquent and danger society" for bringing this toy to school. At the same time his education has been highly compromised after being expelled for one year and then being left to the only choice left for him which is home schooling.

All for a clear plastic toy gun. I remember when getting expelled for one year used to require a serious breach of norms and it was confined to high school student and not 7 year old boys with toy guns.

4 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:18:18am

re: #3 Gus 802

Definitely, and the examples are too many to list. One 13 year old boy was once suspended for sketching a gun. Another was almost expelled after they found a pen knife. I remember as a child that having a pen knife was rather common and almost a point of pride. As was drawing every piece of military hardware imaginable.

So here we have a child whose life is being destroyed for simply bringing a clear plastic toy gun which was never removed from his back pack. The message from society to this child is that he is a "delinquent and danger society" for bringing this toy to school. At the same time his education has been highly compromised after being expelled for one year and then being left to the only choice left for him which is home schooling.

All for a clear plastic toy gun. I remember when getting expelled for one year used to require a serious breach of norms and it was confined to high school student and not 7 year old boys with toy guns.

Children lie like dogs. I don't know if he took it out of the pack or forgot that it was in there, who knows.

What if another child found the gun in his pack and used it, it could have put someone's eye out, even a little plastic bead. Expelling is pretty severe, I agree, but like I say, there has been a number of horrific incidences in S. Florida and they aren't tolerating anything.

5 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:18:47am

re: #2 marjoriemoon

I'm not a fan of zero tolerance, but parents should understand what that means. This child should have been told under no circumstances can you bring that toy to school. And if it means checking his pack every morning, than so be it. Not a bad idea anyway.

There has been a terrible violent probem in South Florida schools in the last 5-10 years where children have been killed, lit on fire and beaten to the point of permanent disability, even at his age. The schools mean business.

I have zero sympathy for these parents.

You can have zero tolerance but you don't expel an innocent child for bringing a clear plastic toy gun to school. The moral damage of the schools response is far worse than the perceived damage of toy guns brings to children.

6 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:20:18am

re: #5 Gus 802

You can have zero tolerance but you don't expel an innocent child for bringing a clear plastic toy gun to school. The moral damage of the schools response is far worse than the perceived damage of toy guns brings to children.

I just don't agree. He wasn't innocent. He broke the rules. "I forgot" is not an excuse. His parents didn't make it clear enough, or did not supervise him enough, knowing he had a toy that could hurt someone. And that toy can hurt someone even if it's not gonna kill em.

7 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:20:30am

re: #4 marjoriemoon

Children lie like dogs. I don't know if he took it out of the pack or forgot that it was in there, who knows.

What if another child found the gun in his pack and used it, it could have put someone's eye out, even a little plastic bead. Expelling is pretty severe, I agree, but like I say, there has been a number of horrific incidences in S. Florida and they aren't tolerating anything.

I used to have toy guns. Toy guns, rifles, pop guns, a BB gun my dad kept locked for me, and the favorite of the time, the metal 38 Special cap gun. I also used to draw military hardware in class and it was everything from guns, to fighter jets, tanks and battle scenes.

8 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:21:45am

re: #6 marjoriemoon

I just don't agree. He wasn't innocent. He broke the rules. "I forgot" is not an excuse. His parents didn't make it clear enough, or did not supervise him enough, knowing he had a toy that could hurt someone. And that toy can hurt someone even if it's not gonna kill em.

Well, it's a sad state of affairs that we have to loom over our children for fear that they might bring a harmless plastic gun to school. I'm glad I didn't have to go through that as a child. It's not a way of building trust in our children or ourselves.

9 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:24:52am

I just a different world now.

In South Florida, a 13 yr old was sent on fire and burned over something like 70% of his body. Another young woman, 15-16, was beaten so severely, she now has to relearn to read, write and speak. She can barely hold a pencil because of the brain damage. Another girl, about 2 weeks ago was stabbed so viciously, she nearly suffocated to death (got her in the lung) and the boy who did it said he's going to finish her off.

Kids from elementary school have to learn that this behaviour won't be tolerated, period.

10 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:42:34am

re: #9 marjoriemoon

I just a different world now.

In South Florida, a 13 yr old was sent on fire and burned over something like 70% of his body. Another young woman, 15-16, was beaten so severely, she now has to relearn to read, write and speak. She can barely hold a pencil because of the brain damage. Another girl, about 2 weeks ago was stabbed so viciously, she nearly suffocated to death (got her in the lung) and the boy who did it said he's going to finish her off.

Kids from elementary school have to learn that this behaviour won't be tolerated, period.

But what do those examples of violence have to do with one 7 year old child and a toy plastic gun? Is the cause of violence toy guns or is it films by Quentin Tarantino, the onslaught of violence on television and video games, the glorification of war, the alcoholic parents, cops being fired instead of imprisoned, and so on.

What then do we do about our history as a nation which was founded under the barrel of a gun both in its initial conquest and bloodshed of the American Indians and then the revolt against the British in the Revolutionary War and later in the Civil War. Everywhere in the imagery of our history are the guns, swords, cannons, Cowboys and the Wild West and "the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air..."

Are we to insulate our children from all appearances of weaponry because of violence that is very well caused by other and even greater mitigating factors? If the answer is yes then we're going to have to go further than banning toy guns and perhaps start censoring much of our history as a nation.

11 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 10:14:23am

Gus, first, the gun pic you just put up is of a water pistol. That was not the gun shown in the video to your link. Also, toy guns have been banned outright because of their danger or the fact that they look like real guns.

You seriously think this 8 year has seen a Tarrentino movie?

Jimminy cricket, you're preaching the second amendment to me? Isn't that just a little out on the ledge?

And btw, laws aren't meant to be broken. You don't have a "no toy guns at school rule" and then let a child break it. Not with a dangerous toy. If you're stupid enough to give your child a toy gun (and I think it's pretty stupid) you better sit him down and tell him under no circumstances does it leave the house.

What if he thinks he's slick and tucks it in his pants and it's mistaken for a real weapon? Go look at that video again to see what that gun looked like.

His parents should have been supervising him outside when he was playing and made sure it was put away when he was finished. That was his parents job, particularly knowing about the no tolerance policy.

12 Gus  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 10:19:30am

re: #11 marjoriemoon

Gus, first, the gun pic you just put up is of a water pistol. That was not the gun shown in the video to your link. Also, toy guns have been banned outright because of their danger or the fact that they look like real guns.

You seriously think this 8 year has seen a Tarrentino movie?

Jimminy cricket, you're preaching the second amendment to me? Isn't that just a little out on the ledge?

And btw, laws aren't meant to be broken. You don't have a "no toy guns at school rule" and then let a child break it. Not with a dangerous toy. If you're stupid enough to give your child a toy gun (and I think it's pretty stupid) you better sit him down and tell him under no circumstances does it leave the house.

What if he thinks he's slick and tucks it in his pants and it's mistaken for a real weapon? Go look at that video again to see what that gun looked like.

His parents should have been supervising him outside when he was playing and made sure it was put away when he was finished. That was his parents job, particularly knowing about the no tolerance policy.

They're treating it as a Class-A weapon. That's equivalent to an actual firearm and if this isn't cleared he will carry that on his education record for life. He was also given the offer for an alternative school -- for troubled children and/or juvenile delinquents. Essentially the response by the school system is to institutionalize him which is notorious for creating criminals. All of this for a toy plastic gun.

That being said, and since this is essentially a thought experiment for me, I think a compromise would be to keep a policy of zero tolerance however treat it according to the particular and recorded behavior of the student. If there is a continuing behavior problem then take a hard line. For the others simply confiscate the toy gun and notify the parents. As in the old days when you had something that was annoying the teacher and she would ask for that object or toy and you would never see it again.

13 What, me worry?  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 10:50:07am

re: #12 Gus 802

CNN sucks. I can't stress that enough. Local S. Florida papers suck worse. If it's not about the latest celeb with the biggest tits, you won't find anything in the Miami Herald.

Anyway, Sun Sentinel had this, but it's an old article. The problem with the CNN article is that they didn't mention that the attorney tried to get the charge knocked down to a Class B weapon, which covers toys and a 10 day suspension from school. Class A weapons relate specifically to firearms, but also include "any guns" which I guess is why they put him in this category - and to make an example out of him, and yes, that's stupid.

Is this considered a felony? If you're accused of a misdemeanor as a minor, your record is expunged at 18. Least it used to be. Has that changed?

Anyway, yea it's harsh, and I suspect they'll keep appealing. I wasn't aware of the Class A/Class B distinction. I do think he should have at least been suspended.

Miramar, btw, has become one of the highest crime areas in Broward.

14 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 1:06:37pm

In Texas, you can only have records expunged in the event of an arrest that did not lead to a conviction, OR a conviction of Class C misdemeanor.

According to my non-lawyer's interpretation of some crap I read on the internet, in Florida, you can only have your record expunged if you were arrested but never charged, the State Attorney later dismissed the case, or the Court dismissed the case. You can have your record sealed in other cases, which just means nobody can look at them without a court order.

15 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 4:13:01pm

re: #14 negativ

In Texas, you can only have records expunged in the event of an arrest that did not lead to a conviction, OR a conviction of Class C misdemeanor.

According to my non-lawyer's interpretation of some crap I read on the internet, in Florida, you can only have your record expunged if you were arrested but never charged, the State Attorney later dismissed the case, or the Court dismissed the case. You can have your record sealed in other cases, which just means nobody can look at them without a court order.

What if you were tried and acquitted? Record stands anyhow?

But to stick to the topic at hand, a toy gun that doesn't even look like a real gun is not an actual gun. It's not a firearm.

If he'd brought a Luger to school, I could see going ballistic about it. Even a 7 year old has to know that serious shit like that goes bang and then somebody's dead. For real, for keeps. And even a grown up has to know that plastic guns that shoot plastic beads at all of 10/20 mph don't go bang and nobody's even stung much less dead. I'd take a shot right in the eye just to prove that the things are harmless. Eyeballs are tougher than that; I know, I've TAKEN a shot right in the eye from a pretty solid snowball.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a toothpick for a toothpick. This is a story of clueless inability to make obvious distinctions. It is as if they had a no swords policy, and some kid showed up at school with one of those one-inch plastic strawberry stabbers that looks like a sword and functions like a toothpick, and they went nuclear on him.

The only good news in this ridiculous story is that the kid has almost surely made more academic progress this year than he'd have made at this particular, and egregiously bone-headed, school.

16 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 7:41:27pm

While I sometimes disagree with Obidcut and Gus, on this issue we are of one mind: Zero Tolerance is a bad thing. It's not really intended to protect students, its there to protect the school. By applying a single, rigid punishment, the school can avoid lawsuits based on allegations of favoritism and discrimination. It also allows those who pass the draconian rule claim they are being "tough on crime". It's a toxic mixture of CYA and bluster.

17 Timmeh  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:02:01am

The stupid burns bad on this one.
A 7-year old boy denied an education over a toy?


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